June 26, 2024 • 45 mins
Have you ever considered breaking up with social media, but you are left thinking, what if I am missing out by leaving?
You are not alone.
Today on the pod, I am joined by Amelia Hruby! Amelia is a writer, educator, and podcaster with a PhD in philosophy.
She is the founder of Softer Sounds, a feminist podcast studio for entrepreneurs and creatives.
And she’s the host of Off the Grid, a podcast about leaving social media without losing all your clients.
Amelia shares her journey to leaving social media and how she started fully on board with it.
She continued a “compare and despair cycle” until she recognized the behavior patterns and triggers the app was causing, resulting in her entire departure from the app.
We talk about what social media brings to people and how people can achieve those feelings off the app. We also discuss how her breakup with diet culture played an important role in her breakup with social media.
Amelia shares the practice she used to help herself and those around her understand how social media is making you feel, what you notice about its impacts on your mental health, and how to absorb that information and decide what you want to do with it.
I have a love-hate relationship with social media, so having Amelia on the podcast was a joy. I hope that you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
Resources:
Rethinking Wellness- Christy Harrison: Digital Well-Being and Leaving Social Media with Amelia Hruby
Amelia’s Website: https://www.ameliahruby.com/
Amelia’s Podcast: https://offthegrid.fun/podcast
Amelia’s Podcast Studio: https://www.softersounds.studio/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When I left social media.
There are definitelyopportunities that I have quote
unquote missed out on.
Even people have reached out tome who would like have big
followings and wanted to partneron something, and I'm like I
don't use social media so Iwon't be reposting this and like
, oh sorry, that's not going towork for us.
Then you know, I have had thesechallenging experiences after
(00:20):
breaking up with diet culture.
I have missed out on thingsafter leaving social media, but
what was more important to me isfeeling good about myself and
being in integrity with myvalues, and I think it's part of
why these breakups, as I phrasethem, have been long lasting.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
well-being that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(01:00):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
Today I'm joined by Amelia Ruby.
She is a writer, a podcasterand the founder of Softer Sounds
(01:22):
, which is a feminist podcaststudio.
I listened to her on ChristyHarrison's Rethinking Wellness
podcast.
She was doing an episode abouthow to leave social media and
still run your business and, ofcourse, I tuned in because if
you listen to me, you know Ihave a bit of a love-h hate with
(01:43):
social media.
I don't know how much lovethere is.
Anyway, it is something that Ijust don't find brings me a lot
of joy, and I like to focus onthings that bring me joy.
So I really wanted her to comeon and not just from a business
perspective, but to talk to allof us about some questions that
we can ask ourselves with ourrelationship with social media,
(02:06):
and listen to her story abouthow, one, she broke up a diet
culture and then two, she brokeup with social media and she is
a happy, thriving person.
So at the end, we're going toreally talk about some questions
and contemplation that you cando for yourself, which is where
I am all ears, because I thinkthese exercises are going to be
(02:27):
really helpful.
So let's go ahead questions andcontemplation that you can do
for yourself, which is where Iam all years, because I think
these exercises are going to bereally helpful.
So let's go ahead and jump in,All right.
Well, I'm excited to jump inhere with Amelia Ruby, and why
don't you go ahead and just telleverybody a little bit about
yourself and your work?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me, heather.
My name is Amelia Frumi, as youjust said.
I currently live in Lincoln,nebraska, after seven years in
Chicago and gosh 20 years inNorth Carolina.
Before that, I am a podcaster,I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, I
(03:02):
have a PhD in philosophy, whichis what I did with most of my
20s, and now I run a podcaststudio called Softer Sounds and
I'm the host of a podcast calledOff the Grid, which is about
leaving social media withoutlosing all your clients.
It's geared towards smallbusiness owners, but really for
anyone who wants to live withjoy and integrity and is
(03:28):
realizing that social media ismessing all of that up.
So I like to share stories andstrategies for ways that we can
step back from social mediaplatforms and into our real
lives.
So that's a quick overview ofyou know over 30 years of things
that I have done and shared,but hopefully that gives you and
(03:48):
listeners an insight into alittle bit of what I'm up to
these days.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Absolutely, and I really am curious about the
origin story of how you got tothis point, because I think
we're probably similar and youkind of like leapfrog your way
through your career, but on thesocial media piece, like what
was one of the bigger driversfor you.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I always like to share that I am not a Luddite
and I am not one of those peoplewho was like I was never on
social media.
I don't get why people careabout it, like I was all in on
Instagram for a decade and soyou know, for me social media
started in college just as well.
(04:34):
Actually, it started in highschool when I was on Facebook.
I got an Instagram in collegeand I was sharing things with my
friends and then eventuallythat kind of shifted and I
became more of a content creator.
I was a micro-influencer, so Iworked with brands to share
their things.
And then I also eventually gota book deal from a series of
social media posts I had createdand self-published and then
(04:57):
sold to a traditional publisher.
That's the Cliff Notes versionof everything I was doing and
loving on social media.
And then, in the process ofselling my book and promoting my
book online, I started toreally see the ways that, no
matter how hard I worked or howgood I thought my work was when
(05:21):
I was sharing it on Instagram, Ijust wasn't getting the results
that I hoped for.
My platform wasn't growing thatfast.
I wasn't getting high levels ofengagement that I was hoping
for.
I was watching other people goviral and really struggling with
why that wasn't happening forme.
(05:42):
A lot of some moments, like thecompare and despair cycle, and
it became this combination oflike I'm putting in all this
work and I'm not seeing results,and I'm feeling like more and
more stressed and anxious andupset every time I'm on this
platform and I felt like Istarted to recognize that there
(06:07):
are some really commonbehavioral patterns or triggers
that I was experiencing therethat I recognize as a lot of the
codependency I'd experienced inpersonal relationships, and so
eventually, that all led to thissort of light bulb moment where
I was like, wow, I'm just inthis anxiously attached
(06:27):
relationship with Instagram andI have to leave.
Like I spent 10 years in thisrelationship and I have to get
out of here at this point, andso I left Instagram in April of
2021.
I had deleted Facebook andTwitter and everything else well
before that, but that kind ofbegan my break with social media
(06:51):
and I haven't really lookedback for the past three years.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I haven't ever heard anybodytie it into their attachment
style, but it really makes somuch sense into their attachment
style, but it really makes somuch sense.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I think that it's just one lens that we can
use to look at our relationshipswith social media, but it was
definitely the most evocativeone for me.
I think partially because I hadbeen in therapy to work on my
anxious attachment with otherhumans and my therapist had
really helped me with that andhelped me to understand the ways
that I would, you know, panicabout something that I had said
(07:35):
and then really, like you know,send 20 text messages trying to
get the other person to reassureme that it was okay, or I would
you know.
If so many patterns here, Ifeel like Instagram is a very
avoidant.
It like gives you a little bitright of engagement, gives you a
little boost of likes, and thenit's like and then you just
keep chasing that and that's thething I had.
(07:56):
That had happened to me in manyromantic relationships I'd been
in where I'd get like a littleboost of attention and then the
person would withdraw and then Iwould anxiously like chase
after that and try to recreatethat and try to hold on to it
and try to mold myself intoanything I thought would get me
that result.
And that's exactly what I wasdoing on social media.
I realized like I would have apost that did well, and then I
(08:18):
would try to recreate that andit would do sort of okay, and
then it would do horribly, andthen I would feel like I was
completely worthless and that mywork that I was sharing wasn't
important and I would go intothese like shame spirals and
again, like all of this can besort of explained and seen
through attachment theory.
(08:39):
So it was really helpful for meto realize that.
And then I had a hard, you know, chat with myself around like
am I going to go to therapy justto break up with Instagram?
Am I going to spend all thatmoney again?
And I was like no, I'm not.
I already did this once.
I could do it, I could do itagain.
And so, yeah, that that sort oflens of attachment style and
codependency was really helpfulfor me in realizing what was
(09:01):
happening in my experience ofsocial media and making the
decision to step away from ithad gone to a burning bowl
(09:25):
ceremony where you know we writedown what we want to let go of
from last year.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Burn that and then write down what we want.
And then I was like this socialmedia, instagram, is just not
it for me, because exactly whatyou're saying it's like who do
you want me to be?
What can I do?
Do you want me to tap dancefast?
You want more of a tango?
And, um, I think that itconfuses for myself, like what
(09:48):
am I trying to do anyway?
What is my message?
In what way do I want to helpand serve people?
Gets very tangled in that.
So, um, I don't.
You probably just saved me somedollars in therapy.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I mean, that's all I can hope for any and all of us.
But I completely understand andI think that social media takes
us pretty far out of our centerand it takes that impulse that
you're describing.
That I think is so beautiful,like the impulse to be of
(10:25):
service, the impulse to createthe work that's important and
meaningful to us and to share itin ways that will resonate with
people.
I mean, that's creativepractice, that's art, that's
business, that's all of thesedifferent things we may be doing
.
I mean, in a certain degree,like that's parenting, that's
anything that we're involved in,that's a practice of care.
(10:46):
Those impulses are so importantand I think that when we pour
all of that into social media,we don't get back the reciprocal
love and care and support thatwe might get when we pour it
into healthy relationships withother humans.
Right, we do that care work forour families, our friends, our
(11:07):
clients, because it is arelationship.
We build that and then we'reable to see other people grow
and succeed and we have thepride and the pleasure of
knowing we were a part of thatjourney and then we're able to,
you know, work with and hireother people who can grow and or
help us grow and help ussucceed, and so I think that it
(11:31):
just really frustrates me oralways did when I was on social
media the way that thoseimpulses really got twisted and
I just was in service of aplatform or an algorithm whose
only motivation was to make moremoney for the people who own
the app, and that's not what Ishowed up to do to me, and to
(12:02):
stay in that space of creativityand of service without social
media, I guess.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well, that's what I like about your podcast, also
because I've been working formyself for almost 25 years and
it reminds me of how I used todo business before social media,
because I think you had one andit was 20 some different things
(12:34):
that you can do to grow yourbusiness, and I was like, oh
right, okay, so so talk topeople.
Okay, okay, I've got okay, letme, let me jot that down Go is
about relationships, whetheryou're a business, owner or not.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I think that social media is shifting our perception
of what it takes to be inrelationships and to build
community and, if you are inbusiness, to find clients.
So much of it is just aboutlearning to be a person who can
relate to others and to canmaintain healthy relationships
over time.
And so, yes, sometimes on mypodcast, I feel like I'm just
(13:27):
saying the same thing over andover again, which is like go
talk to people, tell them whatyou do, and we do that in like
fun and creative and interestingways.
Sometimes maybe it's through apodcast, maybe it's through an
email newsletter, maybe you'reliterally like hopping on the
phone or going to the coffeeshop, but so much of it comes
(13:48):
back to that one-to-one,face-to-face or phone-to-phone
type of conversation.
Like that's just what I'malways reminding us we can come
back to or perhaps need to comeback to in our work come back to
(14:09):
or perhaps need to come back toin our work.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Do you feel like the do it yourself approach to
improving your healthy habitsdoes nothing except feel
overwhelming, guilt inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
(14:32):
heathersayerslaymancom,backslash health dash coaching
and click, let's do it.
There are people like myselfthat are getting out their pen.
They're like okay, let me jotthat down.
Okay, so people will be thehighlight of.
Okay, I have that, I have that.
(14:53):
And you have talked beforeabout diet culture and social
media and that your breakup wasbreaking up.
A diet culture had to be partof your breakup with social
media.
I don't know if I have thatbackwards, but can you talk a
little bit about your journeythere?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, so I celebrate two breakup anniversaries of my
life.
One is my breakup with dietculture, which happened in
September of 2019.
So we're coming up on fiveyears for me, and the other is
my breakup with social media,which happened on April 9th 2021
(15:36):
, if I'm remembering correctly.
So those are really monumentaldays in my life and I celebrate
them like birthdays because theyfelt like I love you and to go
back to how that happened, Ithink that the reason I
celebrate them so much is that Ithink that diet culture was one
(16:00):
of the like most foundational,oppressive, ingrained systems in
my experience of myself.
Entire life up until thatbreakup anniversary or day was
really characterized by a desireto control and constrict my
(16:20):
body.
Everything I did was aboutbeing smaller in physical size.
Everything I ate, all themovement practices I did it's
very punishing.
I was very hard on myself.
This will sound very familiarto, I'm sure, everyone listening
.
So much of my life wascharacterized by diets or
(16:40):
exercise regimens or shame orstress around my body and that
really took over so much of mymental and emotional energy for
decades of my mental andemotional energy for decades.
And in 2019, there was justthis moment where I was in a
(17:01):
really challenging cycle ofoverexercising and I injured
myself in that process and I waskind of at the bottom of
another one of my shame cyclesaround really challenging
feelings about my body, and itwas a kind of revelatory moment.
I woke up one morning and I waslike I can keep going down this
(17:23):
path, I'm going to hurt myselfmore physically and emotionally
and psychologically or I couldjust just stop.
And at that point, you know, Ihad more resources from the fat
positivity movement, from thehealth at every size movement,
like I had understood what dietculture was, cognitively,
(17:45):
logically, and I just had thisreal moment where all of that
finally integrated, similar tothe story I shared about leaving
social media, I think for me,you know, it's often really
really slow and then all at oncein these moments of
transformation, so like reallyslowly, I was realizing the harm
that diet culture and all of myingrained beliefs about it was
(18:07):
doing to my body and to my life.
And then all at once thatbecame really apparent in this
moment of injury and shame and Idecided that I was opting out.
And you know, even at the timeI wasn't sure that was going to
work.
I was like you can't justdecide this once and it'll be
over, but I kind of did I mean Ihad support with that.
(18:29):
Again, I've already mentionedbeing in therapy.
I had a very strong journalingpractice.
I did a ritual that day where Iwrote a manifesto about things
I was breaking up with and thenI did a little mini selfie photo
shoot, which was a big part ofmy practice, taking selfies
during that time, gettingreacquainted with my body and
(18:49):
what it looked like and beingokay with that.
I went and bought one of myfavorite pastries and I kind of
wrapped all of that into thisbreakup ritual that I went
through.
And I haven't dieted or been ona punitive, punishing exercise
or movement regimen since then.
It's been almost five years nowwhich feels like such a feat and
(19:12):
honestly, it feels like theother things I've accomplished
have only been possible byfreeing up all of that brain
space that used to be taken up,by finding new diets and
whatever else I was doing allthe other things I was doing
that were diet culture inducedand I think that going through
(19:33):
that experience of recognizingan oppressive system,
understanding how I was using itto control and punish myself,
and then realizing that I didn'thave to do things that way
really empowered me to recognizeand take make the same choices
(19:55):
when I had that realizationaround social media, seeing that
, oh, social media is also thislike system that has now been
ingrained in these harmfulbeliefs about myself.
It's impacting my self, workand self image and I don't have
to do this like I could actuallynot do it and I can opt out of
(20:15):
it.
And I think that what I'd liketo highlight in this moment of
sharing those two stories islike they are so liberatory and
so empowering and both thoseexperiences changed my life for
the better.
And it doesn't mean therehaven't been consequences of
those actions, right, I think alot of times people think, well,
(20:36):
that's great for you that youdid that, but that's not
possible for me.
Or they think, like, well, if Idid that, here's 20 things that
would happen, that would be aproblem.
And I think that for me, Ineeded to feel free.
I needed to love myself or atleast like myself, or stop
hating myself.
Really is where it started.
Started with stopping hatingmyself, or at least like myself,
or stop hating myself really iswhere it started.
It started with stopping hatingmyself.
(20:57):
We slowly worked toward theothers.
That's what I needed and I waswilling to take the consequences
.
When I say consequences, what Imean is like, yeah, I've been to
doctors that fat shame andbully me.
I've had to change careproviders many times since I
have gained weight as a resultof breaking up with diet culture
.
That's been a consequence whenI left social media.
(21:19):
There are definitelyopportunities that I have quote
unquote missed out on.
Even people have reached out tome who would like have big
followings and wanted to partneron something, and I'm like I
don't use social media so Iwon't be reposting this and like
, oh sorry, that's not going towork for us.
Then I have had thesechallenging experiences after
breaking up with diet culture.
(21:40):
I have missed out on thingsafter leaving social media, but
what was more important to me isfeeling good about myself and
being in integrity with myvalues, and that's what I'm
always coming back to, and Ithink it's part of why these
breakups, as I phrase them, havebeen long lasting.
I haven't come back.
It hasn't been a toxic cycle ofbreakup and go back, and that's
(22:04):
not to judge anyone who goesthrough that.
I certainly had smallerbreakups before these bigger
ones that actually stuck, but Ithink part of what's made them
so long lasting has been thatthey are just deeply connected
to my values and it feels sogood to be free of those systems
at this point in my life.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Wow, that's really interesting because it makes me
think of, like you know, thefrog and the boiling water.
If you were like the water wasjust getting really hot and then
finally you're like, okay, likethis is too, too hot, too much,
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, I got out before I was boiled alive, which
in the metaphor the frogdoesn't.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and I think what's interesting about that
too, is the pull to go back canbe so strong because, also, when
you are humiliated at thedoctor's office or you know,
when whatever it is isconsequential of buying
different clothes or havingpeople treat you differently,
like whatever that, I feel likethat pull for people to be like
(23:10):
well, um, and I was having aconversation recently about that
because that pull is also it'snot real that diet that you
think that you should do, ormaybe, if I just is so romantic
to think about doing, but thenit doesn't change anything,
(23:32):
you're right back where youstarted.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I think that within diet culture, we're so
trained to believe there's likea magic fix or like if we just
cut out this one food or all ofthese foods, or you know, if we
can make this one change, thenour whole lives will be
different.
Or if we can make this onechange, then our whole lives
will be different.
And what I've been able todiscover on the other side of
that is that you absolutely canchange your life, but a diet is
not what's going to do it, andit is likely going to be like if
(24:10):
it's not guided by your deepestdesires and by your pleasure,
then that's not a change.
Emotions that I value, or theyare so deeply connected and tied
(24:38):
to my personal values that it'simportant to me to live them
out.
Those are the changes I canstick with, but I can definitely
reflect back on through all ofmy 20s.
Anytime I had a problem or wentthrough a or was struggling with
my career, I would go on a dietbecause I felt like I could
(24:59):
control the situation bycontrolling what I was eating,
and it really became a go tocoping mechanism for me.
And you know, if I felt badabout something happening in the
external world.
Well, I could just feel badabout my body instead, and then
that was also something I couldcontrol.
I mean not really, but it wasthis way of like trying to pull
in, this control of like, oh, Idon't have to feel bad about
(25:21):
that if I feel worse about me,and it was.
I mean all of that.
So, looking back now, I can seeit so clearly and I have so
much compassion for myself andamazement that I was able to
pull out of those cycles and Istill you know, control is still
a coping mechanism that I haveto work with and like understand
(25:44):
that I have to surrender andcan't control everything.
But I think that you know, Ireally what I was able to see
that so clearly in myrelationship to God diet and
exercise and I think that that'spartially.
It's through the power of thosecoping mechanisms that we
return, because those behaviorsand patterns and habits are
(26:05):
giving us something, even ifthey're also harming us even
more, like we're gettingsomething from them and we have
to find ways to get that fromother things or to understand
what we actually need underneaththat.
And I hope that in describingall of this, it's clear that I
(26:26):
don't take any of it lightly andthat I think that we are all on
different timelines with ourrelationship to these cycles and
to how we support ourselves andthe changes that we make in our
lives.
And for me, my whole life hasjust been an orientation toward
trying to get free from theseoppressive systems, and the ones
(26:47):
I've started with are the onesthat feel most like personally
ingrained in my self image,which has been diet, culture and
then social media.
But there are plenty of othersystems I'm also rooting out.
Part of my PhD was in feministtheory, so understandings of
white supremacist, capitalistpatriarchy are right up in there
.
Harder perhaps, maybe, to quoteunquote break up with some of
(27:09):
those.
I haven't really broken up withcapitalism or white supremacy,
but I'm better able to critiquethem and understand where they
play out in my life and makedifferent choices as well as to
like join community initiativesand efforts to create different
ways forwards.
But I think that a lot of thisstarts in a really personal way,
(27:31):
that's like for me it startedwith diet, culture and social
media, because those are thesystems I felt like I was doing
to myself and that's where Icould start to root out some of
that behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, I think it really reminds me because every
course I do, every client I workwith, we always start with
because they're obviouslydispleased with a state or a
condition, their overall life,any of it and we do cost causes
(28:02):
and values.
And what are the causes of theway I'm feeling?
What are the costs?
But what do I want and I'lllink in the show notes what
episode I talk about thatprocess in the podcast, because
I think there's not enough timespent on values, because we talk
(28:23):
about what we don't want andwhat we don't like, but we don't
spend enough time because youcould list it off.
I know you said ease and all ofthese pieces that you decided.
This is worth much more thanthe other things and I think
it's so important to getfamiliar with that so that you
have something to kind of fallback to like.
(28:45):
No, I said I really wanted tobe peaceful and content, and
peaceful and content does not gowith, you know, trying
something new, or maybe you knowwalking a little faster this
time, trying something new, ormaybe you know walking a little
faster this time or whatevercompensatory method that you're
thinking about, but really beingsolid in your values can be
(29:05):
really helpful to even like nipit in the bud, really, so you
can hear that conversation belike hmm, no.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, I think that this even takes us back to
social media, because I thinkfor so many of us, when we want
to make a change, like itactually starts, the initial
feeling we have is like not this.
It's like, it's like a no.
We can feel that friction, andI think that's where a lot of
people are at with social media,like it feels bad and we're
just like not this, notInstagram social media.
(29:41):
It feels bad and we're justlike not this, not Instagram,
not TikTok, not this and whatyou're speaking to that values
piece.
If we don't get that, then wehave no way out of the not this.
It's like we need a not this,but that or that, and that we
need the alternative and that'swhat the values can help us
identify.
It's like what else do I wantand how do I accomplish that?
Or feel that way or find thosethings, and I think one of the
(30:02):
challenges right now with socialmedia is that it's become this
all encompassing place to findpersonal connection,
professional gain, well being,like every aspect of our lives,
and so there isn't analternative where it's like not
(30:23):
social media, but this otherthing that gives you everything
that's been wrapped into socialmedia, like that doesn't exist
yet.
And this is something I come upwith when I talk to people
through off the grid, or youknow, my marketing work is that
it's like, yeah, not socialmedia.
And I'm like, yeah, or, butthis, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this, and that youknow, like there there's a
buffet of options.
One of the most popular thingsI've ever created is a list
called 100 ways to share yourwork off social media, and so I
(30:44):
can tell you 100 other thingsyou can do, but I don't have one
shiny solution.
That is everything like theconglomeration of everything
that we've all been using socialmedia for, and I think that you
know that comes up when we lookback at diet culture.
Right, it's like, well, notthis, but like that one perfect
diet that promises everything,that one perfect exercise
(31:07):
regimen that promises whateverit may be.
You know, like we have to letgo of that desire for the one
thing that's actually, I think,sometimes considered a symptom
of like white supremacy cultureto have like one ruling answer
to everything, and we have tostep into the multiplicity of it
(31:27):
.
It could be so many things andthis expansive idea that we can
have so many answers.
So not social media but all theother things calling your
friends on the phone, starting agroup text, starting an email
newsletter, putting upbillboards, talking to people at
the coffee shop, you know allthese things like we get to
invite in all of that instead ofthis one app.
(31:48):
That's like stressing us outand creating these shame spirals
and giving us that bad feeling.
But I understand that we'realso like stressed and tired and
exhausted and have a lot goingon.
And so when I'm like, yeah, youcould do these 100 things,
you're like, yeah, but I justwant to do the one thing that's
going to work, and that's what Ican't promise.
(32:09):
I can't give you one thingthat's going to work, and I'm
grateful that I learned thatthrough diet culture first.
So when I came into marketing,I wasn't so obsessed with
finding, like, the one rightanswer.
I already knew there isn't one.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Mm, hmm, Can you go through some questions?
Because I think that that's onepiece that I mean I always find
really helpful.
I mean I always find reallyhelpful to it's like the
application, because I thinkpeople are like oh, I see this
concept about being able toreally peel the onion and ask
(32:45):
themselves some deeper questions, especially when you are afraid
of the answer, Because if theanswer is, I should really get
off of social media, which wealso already know we're like ooh
(33:06):
, I don't know.
But having some questions Ithink is really helpful, Because
, especially I always talk aboutthe trans-theoretical model and
how we change our behavior, andif you're at pre-contemplation,
you're like, no, I don't thinkit's a problem, but you are
contemplating, this is a problemand maybe someday I might do
something about it.
Then those questions can helpmove you through to actually
action and change.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, so I want to start with a practice that I
invite people into, and Ilearned this originally from my
friend and fellow business owner, taylor Elise Morrison of Inner
Workout, but she taught me thispractice I think is really
helpful.
If you're just beginning tocontemplate like is my
(33:49):
relationship with social media aproblem?
Do I maybe want to step awayfrom these apps?
So what I recommend is settinga timer while I guess first
getting your phone and a journaland then setting a timer for
five minutes and then opening upInstagram or TikTok or your app
of choice and scrolling forthat full five minutes and,
(34:10):
while you're scrolling, justtaking notes about what you're
seeing and how it's making youfeel.
So you're like just takingnotes about what you're seeing
and how it's making you feel.
So you're like dog cute dogvideo feeling great Fitness
influencer who I followed fortoo long, feeling really
insecure, whatever it may be,just like kind of notice how,
(34:31):
what's happening and, in yourexperience of that, start there
with the noticing and then, whenyour five minutes is up, go to
that list that you just createdand use it to ask yourself these
two questions like what goodthings am I getting from using
this app and then, what negativethings am I experiencing while
I'm on this app?
(34:51):
And so some of that hopefullylikely came up in your scrolling
.
Some of that for the goodthings.
It may be more about looking atyour own profile, reflecting on
some larger trends, but I liketo start with kind of grounding
us in our experience of thescroll first, and then going to
those questions.
And this gets back to what youshared, like what are the costs
and the causes and the valueshere?
(35:13):
Like what are the good thingsthat I'm getting from this?
What are the negative impactsthat I'm noticing it's having?
And then, I think, reallysitting with and digesting that
information.
I don't think you need to make adecision in that moment about
anything, but if you're in thisstage of contemplation, I
recommend doing that maybe oncea week for a few weeks and
(35:34):
seeing what's shifting whenyou're becoming a more active
user of the social mediaplatform that you're on, because
so much of these platforms isintended to lull us into
passivity, so that we're justreally reacting without thought
or intention.
And if you can kind of bringthis intentional practice to it,
(35:55):
if you can be scrollingintentionally while noticing
what's coming up for you, if youcan be taking these kind of
ongoing notes on what are thepositive things that it's
bringing me, what are thenegative impacts that it's
having.
Then you'll start to see overtime, you know, are there more
positive or more negative?
Is there only one negative?
(36:17):
But it's like really bad, likeyou're like, well, it's bringing
me all this great stuff, butthe negative thing is, well,
it's really just like making mefeel like crap 100% of the time.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Pretty bad one.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And then being able to kind of go through that.
And for me, this is where, likeonce, I have all that
information.
I like to bring in like atrusted friend or coach or
advisor or mentor or colleagueyou know, or typically just my
partner, and be like can we talkabout this?
Because I've been in thisperiod of self discovery.
(36:52):
I think maybe it's telling me Ishould take a break from social
media or delete my profile oruse it way more.
I don't know if you found thatfor yourself, but I like to.
Then I'm an external processoror verbal processor, so then I
like to bring in someone else Ican kind of look at that with
and be like what do you see inthis?
Am I missing anything?
(37:12):
Again, this should be a verytrusted person.
But from there I think you canmove toward a decision about
what you might do.
But I'm hope, but I think again, it's about starting with, just
like, being an active user,being intentional, noticing
what's happening for us, beinghonest about the positives and
the negatives.
I'm not here to say that socialmedia is ruining your life 100%
(37:37):
of the time, Like if it didn'tbring us good things, we
wouldn't be there If we weren'tgetting something out of it.
Like I said before, we wouldn'tspend time on it, but we have
to surface what's really comingup when we're on the apps and
then be honest with ourselvesabout what we're finding in that
assessment and then take actionfrom that point we're finding
(37:57):
in that assessment and then takeaction from that point.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And do you ever recommend in all of my courses
they're like toe in or deep end,because if you just want to,
you know, try a little something, read a little something, you
can definitely toe in, or youcan completely submerge yourself
in the practice, yourself inthe practice.
Do you find that people thatmaybe then take a break do well
(38:26):
with that and then go on.
Does that make that easier thanjust completely getting rid of
everything?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I think it really depends on the person.
I know people that use socialmedia very seasonally, so
they're only on the app in thespring or they're on the app
when they're promoting a course,and that's the only time.
But I also hear them talk abouthow they feel like the
algorithm doesn't favor that sothey don't see.
(38:51):
Typically, when you return,you'll see a big spike in
engagement and then a completedrop off if you're not posting
regularly again, or somethinglike that.
I think that this is where weeach have to return to kind of
our own values and our ownenergetic patterns and our own.
(39:14):
You know, what are thecompromises that we're making
and are they worthwhile?
So I think that, just likethere's no ethical consumption
under capitalism, as they sayyou know, it's not that I think
there's a perfectly puremarketing system that you can do
.
That's not going to becomplicated or, you know,
challenging or have ethicalqualms in some way.
(39:37):
At least, that's how I thinkabout social media.
So it's just what I encouragepeople to do is figure out what
works best for you.
I think that one thing I do seethat feels challenging for
people who take a lot of breaksis they kind of do it through
this mode of bargaining whereit's like, okay, well, I'm just
gonna like really stick it outhere for a while longer.
It's like, okay, well, I'm justgoing to like really stick it
(39:58):
out here for a while longer,even though I feel horrible, and
I'm going to give myself amonth long break and I'll come
back, because I have to comeback to promote this thing or to
share this thing, or my cousinhad a baby, whatever it is.
I'm trying to give personal andprofessional examples but it
ends up creating this cycle ofagain.
It can become a kind ofpunitive cycle, it can become a
(40:21):
binge and restrict cycle and itcan also harm, I think, your
self-trust.
If you know for a long time thatyou need to get off social
media and you just give yourselfbreaks as a way of like sort of
saying yes to that innerknowing but not actually giving
it what it needs, I think thatthat will harm your relationship
(40:43):
with yourself and with yourintuition over time.
And then it's that's challenging.
I don't judge people who go offand back on.
I've had people on the podcastwho left and then a year later
were like no, I think I'm goingto go back for six weeks, and
they do that and I think if thatworks for them, that's great.
I'm not in the business ofdeciding if or when anyone
(41:05):
should be on social media, but Ido think from my own experience
that trusting our inner,knowing and really being in
integrity with our needs,desires and values is how we
create lives that nourish andfulfill us, and so I see social
media just really harm that fora lot of people, really harm
(41:27):
that connection with themselves,and sometimes I think that this
off and on, take breaks, comeback cycle is a part of that
problem off and on, take breaks,come back cycle is a part of
that problem.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
That's so interesting and so good to think about
because it's all designed forharm and to pull you away from
yourself anyway.
So I mean that just feels likea bad relationship where you're
just going back for a littlemore of like oh, that's why I
hated, Okay, yeah, that's that'swhy I don't like this person.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, and and that definitely is something I hear a
lot and I think again, like, ifyou're in that position, I
think getting really honest withyourself, asking yourself like,
why am I going back?
Like what is happening therethat I want more of?
Like why am I returning?
Is it because you feel likeyou're missing out on something?
Is it because you need tomarket something in your
(42:23):
business and you don't know howelse to do it?
Because we can find other waysto do those things.
There are very few things thatyou literally can't get anywhere
except social media, maybe alittle more challenging or
different.
You may have to text yourfriend and be like, please send
me photos of your dog instead ofjust seeing them in stories.
But like, can we open ourselvesup to those new and different
(42:47):
ways of being, to thevulnerability of asking instead
of lurking?
Can we be honest about whatwe're desiring and if social
media is a good place to getthat, can we honor our feeling
that it feels bad to be thereand can we make different
choices that feel better for us,maybe not in that immediate
(43:07):
short-term moment, but in thelonger run, as we realign with
our values.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So much to think about, and these are all such
great journaling topics as well.
I definitely will be doing some, as I keep pondering my
imminent breakup.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Well, tell everyone where they can find you not on
Instagram not on Instagram, yeah, so if you're interested in
hearing more about myperspectives on social media,
you can listen to my podcast offthe grid leaving social media
without losing all your clients.
I also offer a free toolkitcalled the leaving social media
(43:49):
toolkit that provides a fivestep plan for leaving any social
media platform, that list of100 ways to share your work off
social media that I mentioned,and a creative marketing ideas
database.
If you're a business owner andwant to plan marketing
experiments that are not onsocial media, that will help you
do that.
You can also find me personallyonline at ameliefrubycom.
(44:13):
And if you'd like to make apodcast together, that is, my
primary work right now isrunning a podcast studio and
that's called Softer Sounds andyou can find it at
softersoundsstudio.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Which you do have a lovely podcast voice also Thank
you.
So I listen to myself when Iyou know edit like social media
clips and you know the ums, thelikes and everything.
And then when I hear somebodywith a really smooth delivery,
I'm like that is so nice.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Well, you know it's been a lot of practice.
I will say Like I've beenpodcasting for eight years now,
I think, and I'm on like mythird or fourth show of my own,
so it comes over time.
We all find our own voice atour own time.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Good to know.
Well, thank you so much forspending time here.
I really appreciate everythingthat you talked about.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and thank
you, listeners, for tuning in,and I just hope everyone knows
that I really am cheering you onin your journey of breaking up
with diet, culture or socialmedia, if that is the journey
that you're on.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
All right, take care as always.
Please follow show or you canleave a five star review on
Apple or Spotify.
That would be fun to see in thenext episode.
When I left social media.
There are definitelyopportunities that I have quote
unquote missed out on.
Even people have reached out tome who would like have big
followings and wanted to partneron something, and I'm like I
don't use social media so Iwon't be reposting this and like
, oh sorry, that's not going towork for us.
Then you know, I have had thesechallenging experiences after
(00:20):
breaking up with diet culture.
I have missed out on thingsafter leaving social media, but
what was more important to me isfeeling good about myself and
being in integrity with myvalues, and I think it's part of
why these breakups, as I phrasethem, have been long lasting.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
well-being that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(01:00):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
Today I'm joined by Amelia Ruby.
She is a writer, a podcasterand the founder of Softer Sounds
(01:22):
, which is a feminist podcaststudio.
I listened to her on ChristyHarrison's Rethinking Wellness
podcast.
She was doing an episode abouthow to leave social media and
still run your business and, ofcourse, I tuned in because if
you listen to me, you know Ihave a bit of a love-h hate with
(01:43):
social media.
I don't know how much lovethere is.
Anyway, it is something that Ijust don't find brings me a lot
of joy, and I like to focus onthings that bring me joy.
So I really wanted her to comeon and not just from a business
perspective, but to talk to allof us about some questions that
we can ask ourselves with ourrelationship with social media,
(02:06):
and listen to her story abouthow, one, she broke up a diet
culture and then two, she brokeup with social media and she is
a happy, thriving person.
So at the end, we're going toreally talk about some questions
and contemplation that you cando for yourself, which is where
I am all ears, because I thinkthese exercises are going to be
(02:27):
really helpful.
So let's go ahead questions andcontemplation that you can do
for yourself, which is where Iam all years, because I think
these exercises are going to bereally helpful.
So let's go ahead and jump in,All right.
Well, I'm excited to jump inhere with Amelia Ruby, and why
don't you go ahead and just telleverybody a little bit about
yourself and your work?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Of course.
Thank you so much for having me, heather.
My name is Amelia Frumi, as youjust said.
I currently live in Lincoln,nebraska, after seven years in
Chicago and gosh 20 years inNorth Carolina.
Before that, I am a podcaster,I'm a writer, I'm a speaker, I
(03:02):
have a PhD in philosophy, whichis what I did with most of my
20s, and now I run a podcaststudio called Softer Sounds and
I'm the host of a podcast calledOff the Grid, which is about
leaving social media withoutlosing all your clients.
It's geared towards smallbusiness owners, but really for
anyone who wants to live withjoy and integrity and is
(03:28):
realizing that social media ismessing all of that up.
So I like to share stories andstrategies for ways that we can
step back from social mediaplatforms and into our real
lives.
So that's a quick overview ofyou know over 30 years of things
that I have done and shared,but hopefully that gives you and
(03:48):
listeners an insight into alittle bit of what I'm up to
these days.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Absolutely, and I really am curious about the
origin story of how you got tothis point, because I think
we're probably similar and youkind of like leapfrog your way
through your career, but on thesocial media piece, like what
was one of the bigger driversfor you.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I always like to share that I am not a Luddite
and I am not one of those peoplewho was like I was never on
social media.
I don't get why people careabout it, like I was all in on
Instagram for a decade and soyou know, for me social media
started in college just as well.
(04:34):
Actually, it started in highschool when I was on Facebook.
I got an Instagram in collegeand I was sharing things with my
friends and then eventuallythat kind of shifted and I
became more of a content creator.
I was a micro-influencer, so Iworked with brands to share
their things.
And then I also eventually gota book deal from a series of
social media posts I had createdand self-published and then
(04:57):
sold to a traditional publisher.
That's the Cliff Notes versionof everything I was doing and
loving on social media.
And then, in the process ofselling my book and promoting my
book online, I started toreally see the ways that, no
matter how hard I worked or howgood I thought my work was when
(05:21):
I was sharing it on Instagram, Ijust wasn't getting the results
that I hoped for.
My platform wasn't growing thatfast.
I wasn't getting high levels ofengagement that I was hoping
for.
I was watching other people goviral and really struggling with
why that wasn't happening forme.
(05:42):
A lot of some moments, like thecompare and despair cycle, and
it became this combination oflike I'm putting in all this
work and I'm not seeing results,and I'm feeling like more and
more stressed and anxious andupset every time I'm on this
platform and I felt like Istarted to recognize that there
(06:07):
are some really commonbehavioral patterns or triggers
that I was experiencing therethat I recognize as a lot of the
codependency I'd experienced inpersonal relationships, and so
eventually, that all led to thissort of light bulb moment where
I was like, wow, I'm just inthis anxiously attached
(06:27):
relationship with Instagram andI have to leave.
Like I spent 10 years in thisrelationship and I have to get
out of here at this point, andso I left Instagram in April of
2021.
I had deleted Facebook andTwitter and everything else well
before that, but that kind ofbegan my break with social media
(06:51):
and I haven't really lookedback for the past three years.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Wow, that's so interesting.
I haven't ever heard anybodytie it into their attachment
style, but it really makes somuch sense into their attachment
style, but it really makes somuch sense.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I think that it's just one lens that we can
use to look at our relationshipswith social media, but it was
definitely the most evocativeone for me.
I think partially because I hadbeen in therapy to work on my
anxious attachment with otherhumans and my therapist had
really helped me with that andhelped me to understand the ways
that I would, you know, panicabout something that I had said
(07:35):
and then really, like you know,send 20 text messages trying to
get the other person to reassureme that it was okay, or I would
you know.
If so many patterns here, Ifeel like Instagram is a very
avoidant.
It like gives you a little bitright of engagement, gives you a
little boost of likes, and thenit's like and then you just
keep chasing that and that's thething I had.
(07:56):
That had happened to me in manyromantic relationships I'd been
in where I'd get like a littleboost of attention and then the
person would withdraw and then Iwould anxiously like chase
after that and try to recreatethat and try to hold on to it
and try to mold myself intoanything I thought would get me
that result.
And that's exactly what I wasdoing on social media.
I realized like I would have apost that did well, and then I
(08:18):
would try to recreate that andit would do sort of okay, and
then it would do horribly, andthen I would feel like I was
completely worthless and that mywork that I was sharing wasn't
important and I would go intothese like shame spirals and
again, like all of this can besort of explained and seen
through attachment theory.
(08:39):
So it was really helpful for meto realize that.
And then I had a hard, you know, chat with myself around like
am I going to go to therapy justto break up with Instagram?
Am I going to spend all thatmoney again?
And I was like no, I'm not.
I already did this once.
I could do it, I could do itagain.
And so, yeah, that that sort oflens of attachment style and
codependency was really helpfulfor me in realizing what was
(09:01):
happening in my experience ofsocial media and making the
decision to step away from ithad gone to a burning bowl
(09:25):
ceremony where you know we writedown what we want to let go of
from last year.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Burn that and then write down what we want.
And then I was like this socialmedia, instagram, is just not
it for me, because exactly whatyou're saying it's like who do
you want me to be?
What can I do?
Do you want me to tap dancefast?
You want more of a tango?
And, um, I think that itconfuses for myself, like what
(09:48):
am I trying to do anyway?
What is my message?
In what way do I want to helpand serve people?
Gets very tangled in that.
So, um, I don't.
You probably just saved me somedollars in therapy.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
I mean, that's all I can hope for any and all of us.
But I completely understand andI think that social media takes
us pretty far out of our centerand it takes that impulse that
you're describing.
That I think is so beautiful,like the impulse to be of
(10:25):
service, the impulse to createthe work that's important and
meaningful to us and to share itin ways that will resonate with
people.
I mean, that's creativepractice, that's art, that's
business, that's all of thesedifferent things we may be doing
.
I mean, in a certain degree,like that's parenting, that's
anything that we're involved in,that's a practice of care.
(10:46):
Those impulses are so importantand I think that when we pour
all of that into social media,we don't get back the reciprocal
love and care and support thatwe might get when we pour it
into healthy relationships withother humans.
Right, we do that care work forour families, our friends, our
(11:07):
clients, because it is arelationship.
We build that and then we'reable to see other people grow
and succeed and we have thepride and the pleasure of
knowing we were a part of thatjourney and then we're able to,
you know, work with and hireother people who can grow and or
help us grow and help ussucceed, and so I think that it
(11:31):
just really frustrates me oralways did when I was on social
media the way that thoseimpulses really got twisted and
I just was in service of aplatform or an algorithm whose
only motivation was to make moremoney for the people who own
the app, and that's not what Ishowed up to do to me, and to
(12:02):
stay in that space of creativityand of service without social
media, I guess.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well, that's what I like about your podcast, also
because I've been working formyself for almost 25 years and
it reminds me of how I used todo business before social media,
because I think you had one andit was 20 some different things
(12:34):
that you can do to grow yourbusiness, and I was like, oh
right, okay, so so talk topeople.
Okay, okay, I've got okay, letme, let me jot that down Go is
about relationships, whetheryou're a business, owner or not.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I think that social media is shifting our perception
of what it takes to be inrelationships and to build
community and, if you are inbusiness, to find clients.
So much of it is just aboutlearning to be a person who can
relate to others and to canmaintain healthy relationships
over time.
And so, yes, sometimes on mypodcast, I feel like I'm just
(13:27):
saying the same thing over andover again, which is like go
talk to people, tell them whatyou do, and we do that in like
fun and creative and interestingways.
Sometimes maybe it's through apodcast, maybe it's through an
email newsletter, maybe you'reliterally like hopping on the
phone or going to the coffeeshop, but so much of it comes
(13:48):
back to that one-to-one,face-to-face or phone-to-phone
type of conversation.
Like that's just what I'malways reminding us we can come
back to or perhaps need to comeback to in our work come back to
(14:09):
or perhaps need to come back toin our work.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Do you feel like the do it yourself approach to
improving your healthy habitsdoes nothing except feel
overwhelming, guilt inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
(14:32):
heathersayerslaymancom,backslash health dash coaching
and click, let's do it.
There are people like myselfthat are getting out their pen.
They're like okay, let me jotthat down.
Okay, so people will be thehighlight of.
Okay, I have that, I have that.
(14:53):
And you have talked beforeabout diet culture and social
media and that your breakup wasbreaking up.
A diet culture had to be partof your breakup with social
media.
I don't know if I have thatbackwards, but can you talk a
little bit about your journeythere?
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, so I celebrate two breakup anniversaries of my
life.
One is my breakup with dietculture, which happened in
September of 2019.
So we're coming up on fiveyears for me, and the other is
my breakup with social media,which happened on April 9th 2021
(15:36):
, if I'm remembering correctly.
So those are really monumentaldays in my life and I celebrate
them like birthdays because theyfelt like I love you and to go
back to how that happened, Ithink that the reason I
celebrate them so much is that Ithink that diet culture was one
(16:00):
of the like most foundational,oppressive, ingrained systems in
my experience of myself.
Entire life up until thatbreakup anniversary or day was
really characterized by a desireto control and constrict my
(16:20):
body.
Everything I did was aboutbeing smaller in physical size.
Everything I ate, all themovement practices I did it's
very punishing.
I was very hard on myself.
This will sound very familiarto, I'm sure, everyone listening
.
So much of my life wascharacterized by diets or
(16:40):
exercise regimens or shame orstress around my body and that
really took over so much of mymental and emotional energy for
decades of my mental andemotional energy for decades.
And in 2019, there was justthis moment where I was in a
(17:01):
really challenging cycle ofoverexercising and I injured
myself in that process and I waskind of at the bottom of
another one of my shame cyclesaround really challenging
feelings about my body, and itwas a kind of revelatory moment.
I woke up one morning and I waslike I can keep going down this
(17:23):
path, I'm going to hurt myselfmore physically and emotionally
and psychologically or I couldjust just stop.
And at that point, you know, Ihad more resources from the fat
positivity movement, from thehealth at every size movement,
like I had understood what dietculture was, cognitively,
(17:45):
logically, and I just had thisreal moment where all of that
finally integrated, similar tothe story I shared about leaving
social media, I think for me,you know, it's often really
really slow and then all at oncein these moments of
transformation, so like reallyslowly, I was realizing the harm
that diet culture and all of myingrained beliefs about it was
(18:07):
doing to my body and to my life.
And then all at once thatbecame really apparent in this
moment of injury and shame and Idecided that I was opting out.
And you know, even at the timeI wasn't sure that was going to
work.
I was like you can't justdecide this once and it'll be
over, but I kind of did I mean Ihad support with that.
(18:29):
Again, I've already mentionedbeing in therapy.
I had a very strong journalingpractice.
I did a ritual that day where Iwrote a manifesto about things
I was breaking up with and thenI did a little mini selfie photo
shoot, which was a big part ofmy practice, taking selfies
during that time, gettingreacquainted with my body and
(18:49):
what it looked like and beingokay with that.
I went and bought one of myfavorite pastries and I kind of
wrapped all of that into thisbreakup ritual that I went
through.
And I haven't dieted or been ona punitive, punishing exercise
or movement regimen since then.
It's been almost five years nowwhich feels like such a feat and
(19:12):
honestly, it feels like theother things I've accomplished
have only been possible byfreeing up all of that brain
space that used to be taken up,by finding new diets and
whatever else I was doing allthe other things I was doing
that were diet culture inducedand I think that going through
(19:33):
that experience of recognizingan oppressive system,
understanding how I was using itto control and punish myself,
and then realizing that I didn'thave to do things that way
really empowered me to recognizeand take make the same choices
(19:55):
when I had that realizationaround social media, seeing that
, oh, social media is also thislike system that has now been
ingrained in these harmfulbeliefs about myself.
It's impacting my self, workand self image and I don't have
to do this like I could actuallynot do it and I can opt out of
(20:15):
it.
And I think that what I'd liketo highlight in this moment of
sharing those two stories islike they are so liberatory and
so empowering and both thoseexperiences changed my life for
the better.
And it doesn't mean therehaven't been consequences of
those actions, right, I think alot of times people think, well,
(20:36):
that's great for you that youdid that, but that's not
possible for me.
Or they think, like, well, if Idid that, here's 20 things that
would happen, that would be aproblem.
And I think that for me, Ineeded to feel free.
I needed to love myself or atleast like myself, or stop
hating myself.
Really is where it started.
Started with stopping hatingmyself, or at least like myself,
or stop hating myself really iswhere it started.
It started with stopping hatingmyself.
(20:57):
We slowly worked toward theothers.
That's what I needed and I waswilling to take the consequences
.
When I say consequences, what Imean is like, yeah, I've been to
doctors that fat shame andbully me.
I've had to change careproviders many times since I
have gained weight as a resultof breaking up with diet culture
.
That's been a consequence whenI left social media.
(21:19):
There are definitelyopportunities that I have quote
unquote missed out on.
Even people have reached out tome who would like have big
followings and wanted to partneron something, and I'm like I
don't use social media so Iwon't be reposting this and like
, oh sorry, that's not going towork for us.
Then I have had thesechallenging experiences after
breaking up with diet culture.
(21:40):
I have missed out on thingsafter leaving social media, but
what was more important to me isfeeling good about myself and
being in integrity with myvalues, and that's what I'm
always coming back to, and Ithink it's part of why these
breakups, as I phrase them, havebeen long lasting.
I haven't come back.
It hasn't been a toxic cycle ofbreakup and go back, and that's
(22:04):
not to judge anyone who goesthrough that.
I certainly had smallerbreakups before these bigger
ones that actually stuck, but Ithink part of what's made them
so long lasting has been thatthey are just deeply connected
to my values and it feels sogood to be free of those systems
at this point in my life.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Wow, that's really interesting because it makes me
think of, like you know, thefrog and the boiling water.
If you were like the water wasjust getting really hot and then
finally you're like, okay, likethis is too, too hot, too much,
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, I got out before I was boiled alive, which
in the metaphor the frogdoesn't.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and I think what's interesting about that
too, is the pull to go back canbe so strong because, also, when
you are humiliated at thedoctor's office or you know,
when whatever it is isconsequential of buying
different clothes or havingpeople treat you differently,
like whatever that, I feel likethat pull for people to be like
(23:10):
well, um, and I was having aconversation recently about that
because that pull is also it'snot real that diet that you
think that you should do, ormaybe, if I just is so romantic
to think about doing, but thenit doesn't change anything,
(23:32):
you're right back where youstarted.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I think that within diet culture, we're so
trained to believe there's likea magic fix or like if we just
cut out this one food or all ofthese foods, or you know, if we
can make this one change, thenour whole lives will be
different.
Or if we can make this onechange, then our whole lives
will be different.
And what I've been able todiscover on the other side of
that is that you absolutely canchange your life, but a diet is
not what's going to do it, andit is likely going to be like if
(24:10):
it's not guided by your deepestdesires and by your pleasure,
then that's not a change.
Emotions that I value, or theyare so deeply connected and tied
(24:38):
to my personal values that it'simportant to me to live them
out.
Those are the changes I canstick with, but I can definitely
reflect back on through all ofmy 20s.
Anytime I had a problem or wentthrough a or was struggling with
my career, I would go on a dietbecause I felt like I could
(24:59):
control the situation bycontrolling what I was eating,
and it really became a go tocoping mechanism for me.
And you know, if I felt badabout something happening in the
external world.
Well, I could just feel badabout my body instead, and then
that was also something I couldcontrol.
I mean not really, but it wasthis way of like trying to pull
in, this control of like, oh, Idon't have to feel bad about
(25:21):
that if I feel worse about me,and it was.
I mean all of that.
So, looking back now, I can seeit so clearly and I have so
much compassion for myself andamazement that I was able to
pull out of those cycles and Istill you know, control is still
a coping mechanism that I haveto work with and like understand
(25:44):
that I have to surrender andcan't control everything.
But I think that you know, Ireally what I was able to see
that so clearly in myrelationship to God diet and
exercise and I think that that'spartially.
It's through the power of thosecoping mechanisms that we
return, because those behaviorsand patterns and habits are
(26:05):
giving us something, even ifthey're also harming us even
more, like we're gettingsomething from them and we have
to find ways to get that fromother things or to understand
what we actually need underneaththat.
And I hope that in describingall of this, it's clear that I
(26:26):
don't take any of it lightly andthat I think that we are all on
different timelines with ourrelationship to these cycles and
to how we support ourselves andthe changes that we make in our
lives.
And for me, my whole life hasjust been an orientation toward
trying to get free from theseoppressive systems, and the ones
(26:47):
I've started with are the onesthat feel most like personally
ingrained in my self image,which has been diet, culture and
then social media.
But there are plenty of othersystems I'm also rooting out.
Part of my PhD was in feministtheory, so understandings of
white supremacist, capitalistpatriarchy are right up in there
.
Harder perhaps, maybe, to quoteunquote break up with some of
(27:09):
those.
I haven't really broken up withcapitalism or white supremacy,
but I'm better able to critiquethem and understand where they
play out in my life and makedifferent choices as well as to
like join community initiativesand efforts to create different
ways forwards.
But I think that a lot of thisstarts in a really personal way,
(27:31):
that's like for me it startedwith diet, culture and social
media, because those are thesystems I felt like I was doing
to myself and that's where Icould start to root out some of
that behavior.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, I think it really reminds me because every
course I do, every client I workwith, we always start with
because they're obviouslydispleased with a state or a
condition, their overall life,any of it and we do cost causes
(28:02):
and values.
And what are the causes of theway I'm feeling?
What are the costs?
But what do I want and I'lllink in the show notes what
episode I talk about thatprocess in the podcast, because
I think there's not enough timespent on values, because we talk
(28:23):
about what we don't want andwhat we don't like, but we don't
spend enough time because youcould list it off.
I know you said ease and all ofthese pieces that you decided.
This is worth much more thanthe other things and I think
it's so important to getfamiliar with that so that you
have something to kind of fallback to like.
(28:45):
No, I said I really wanted tobe peaceful and content, and
peaceful and content does not gowith, you know, trying
something new, or maybe you knowwalking a little faster this
time, trying something new, ormaybe you know walking a little
faster this time or whatevercompensatory method that you're
thinking about, but really beingsolid in your values can be
(29:05):
really helpful to even like nipit in the bud, really, so you
can hear that conversation belike hmm, no.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, I think that this even takes us back to
social media, because I thinkfor so many of us, when we want
to make a change, like itactually starts, the initial
feeling we have is like not this.
It's like, it's like a no.
We can feel that friction, andI think that's where a lot of
people are at with social media,like it feels bad and we're
just like not this, notInstagram social media.
(29:41):
It feels bad and we're justlike not this, not Instagram,
not TikTok, not this and whatyou're speaking to that values
piece.
If we don't get that, then wehave no way out of the not this.
It's like we need a not this,but that or that, and that we
need the alternative and that'swhat the values can help us
identify.
It's like what else do I wantand how do I accomplish that?
Or feel that way or find thosethings, and I think one of the
(30:02):
challenges right now with socialmedia is that it's become this
all encompassing place to findpersonal connection,
professional gain, well being,like every aspect of our lives,
and so there isn't analternative where it's like not
(30:23):
social media, but this otherthing that gives you everything
that's been wrapped into socialmedia, like that doesn't exist
yet.
And this is something I come upwith when I talk to people
through off the grid, or youknow, my marketing work is that
it's like, yeah, not socialmedia.
And I'm like, yeah, or, butthis, this, this, this, this,
this, this, this, and that youknow, like there there's a
buffet of options.
One of the most popular thingsI've ever created is a list
called 100 ways to share yourwork off social media, and so I
(30:44):
can tell you 100 other thingsyou can do, but I don't have one
shiny solution.
That is everything like theconglomeration of everything
that we've all been using socialmedia for, and I think that you
know that comes up when we lookback at diet culture.
Right, it's like, well, notthis, but like that one perfect
diet that promises everything,that one perfect exercise
(31:07):
regimen that promises whateverit may be.
You know, like we have to letgo of that desire for the one
thing that's actually, I think,sometimes considered a symptom
of like white supremacy cultureto have like one ruling answer
to everything, and we have tostep into the multiplicity of it
(31:27):
.
It could be so many things andthis expansive idea that we can
have so many answers.
So not social media but all theother things calling your
friends on the phone, starting agroup text, starting an email
newsletter, putting upbillboards, talking to people at
the coffee shop, you know allthese things like we get to
invite in all of that instead ofthis one app.
(31:48):
That's like stressing us outand creating these shame spirals
and giving us that bad feeling.
But I understand that we'realso like stressed and tired and
exhausted and have a lot goingon.
And so when I'm like, yeah, youcould do these 100 things,
you're like, yeah, but I justwant to do the one thing that's
going to work, and that's what Ican't promise.
(32:09):
I can't give you one thingthat's going to work, and I'm
grateful that I learned thatthrough diet culture first.
So when I came into marketing,I wasn't so obsessed with
finding, like, the one rightanswer.
I already knew there isn't one.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Mm, hmm, Can you go through some questions?
Because I think that that's onepiece that I mean I always find
really helpful.
I mean I always find reallyhelpful to it's like the
application, because I thinkpeople are like oh, I see this
concept about being able toreally peel the onion and ask
(32:45):
themselves some deeper questions, especially when you are afraid
of the answer, Because if theanswer is, I should really get
off of social media, which wealso already know we're like ooh
(33:06):
, I don't know.
But having some questions Ithink is really helpful, Because
, especially I always talk aboutthe trans-theoretical model and
how we change our behavior, andif you're at pre-contemplation,
you're like, no, I don't thinkit's a problem, but you are
contemplating, this is a problemand maybe someday I might do
something about it.
Then those questions can helpmove you through to actually
action and change.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, so I want to start with a practice that I
invite people into, and Ilearned this originally from my
friend and fellow business owner, taylor Elise Morrison of Inner
Workout, but she taught me thispractice I think is really
helpful.
If you're just beginning tocontemplate like is my
(33:49):
relationship with social media aproblem?
Do I maybe want to step awayfrom these apps?
So what I recommend is settinga timer while I guess first
getting your phone and a journaland then setting a timer for
five minutes and then opening upInstagram or TikTok or your app
of choice and scrolling forthat full five minutes and,
(34:10):
while you're scrolling, justtaking notes about what you're
seeing and how it's making youfeel.
So you're like just takingnotes about what you're seeing
and how it's making you feel.
So you're like dog cute dogvideo feeling great Fitness
influencer who I followed fortoo long, feeling really
insecure, whatever it may be,just like kind of notice how,
(34:31):
what's happening and, in yourexperience of that, start there
with the noticing and then, whenyour five minutes is up, go to
that list that you just createdand use it to ask yourself these
two questions like what goodthings am I getting from using
this app and then, what negativethings am I experiencing while
I'm on this app?
(34:51):
And so some of that hopefullylikely came up in your scrolling
.
Some of that for the goodthings.
It may be more about looking atyour own profile, reflecting on
some larger trends, but I liketo start with kind of grounding
us in our experience of thescroll first, and then going to
those questions.
And this gets back to what youshared, like what are the costs
and the causes and the valueshere?
(35:13):
Like what are the good thingsthat I'm getting from this?
What are the negative impactsthat I'm noticing it's having?
And then, I think, reallysitting with and digesting that
information.
I don't think you need to make adecision in that moment about
anything, but if you're in thisstage of contemplation, I
recommend doing that maybe oncea week for a few weeks and
(35:34):
seeing what's shifting whenyou're becoming a more active
user of the social mediaplatform that you're on, because
so much of these platforms isintended to lull us into
passivity, so that we're justreally reacting without thought
or intention.
And if you can kind of bringthis intentional practice to it,
(35:55):
if you can be scrollingintentionally while noticing
what's coming up for you, if youcan be taking these kind of
ongoing notes on what are thepositive things that it's
bringing me, what are thenegative impacts that it's
having.
Then you'll start to see overtime, you know, are there more
positive or more negative?
Is there only one negative?
(36:17):
But it's like really bad, likeyou're like, well, it's bringing
me all this great stuff, butthe negative thing is, well,
it's really just like making mefeel like crap 100% of the time.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Pretty bad one.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And then being able to kind of go through that.
And for me, this is where, likeonce, I have all that
information.
I like to bring in like atrusted friend or coach or
advisor or mentor or colleagueyou know, or typically just my
partner, and be like can we talkabout this?
Because I've been in thisperiod of self discovery.
(36:52):
I think maybe it's telling me Ishould take a break from social
media or delete my profile oruse it way more.
I don't know if you found thatfor yourself, but I like to.
Then I'm an external processoror verbal processor, so then I
like to bring in someone else Ican kind of look at that with
and be like what do you see inthis?
Am I missing anything?
(37:12):
Again, this should be a verytrusted person.
But from there I think you canmove toward a decision about
what you might do.
But I'm hope, but I think again, it's about starting with, just
like, being an active user,being intentional, noticing
what's happening for us, beinghonest about the positives and
the negatives.
I'm not here to say that socialmedia is ruining your life 100%
(37:37):
of the time, Like if it didn'tbring us good things, we
wouldn't be there If we weren'tgetting something out of it.
Like I said before, we wouldn'tspend time on it, but we have
to surface what's really comingup when we're on the apps and
then be honest with ourselvesabout what we're finding in that
assessment and then take actionfrom that point we're finding
(37:57):
in that assessment and then takeaction from that point.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And do you ever recommend in all of my courses
they're like toe in or deep end,because if you just want to,
you know, try a little something, read a little something, you
can definitely toe in, or youcan completely submerge yourself
in the practice, yourself inthe practice.
Do you find that people thatmaybe then take a break do well
(38:26):
with that and then go on.
Does that make that easier thanjust completely getting rid of
everything?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
I think it really depends on the person.
I know people that use socialmedia very seasonally, so
they're only on the app in thespring or they're on the app
when they're promoting a course,and that's the only time.
But I also hear them talk abouthow they feel like the
algorithm doesn't favor that sothey don't see.
(38:51):
Typically, when you return,you'll see a big spike in
engagement and then a completedrop off if you're not posting
regularly again, or somethinglike that.
I think that this is where weeach have to return to kind of
our own values and our ownenergetic patterns and our own.
(39:14):
You know, what are thecompromises that we're making
and are they worthwhile?
So I think that, just likethere's no ethical consumption
under capitalism, as they sayyou know, it's not that I think
there's a perfectly puremarketing system that you can do
.
That's not going to becomplicated or, you know,
challenging or have ethicalqualms in some way.
(39:37):
At least, that's how I thinkabout social media.
So it's just what I encouragepeople to do is figure out what
works best for you.
I think that one thing I do seethat feels challenging for
people who take a lot of breaksis they kind of do it through
this mode of bargaining whereit's like, okay, well, I'm just
gonna like really stick it outhere for a while longer.
It's like, okay, well, I'm justgoing to like really stick it
(39:58):
out here for a while longer,even though I feel horrible, and
I'm going to give myself amonth long break and I'll come
back, because I have to comeback to promote this thing or to
share this thing, or my cousinhad a baby, whatever it is.
I'm trying to give personal andprofessional examples but it
ends up creating this cycle ofagain.
It can become a kind ofpunitive cycle, it can become a
(40:21):
binge and restrict cycle and itcan also harm, I think, your
self-trust.
If you know for a long time thatyou need to get off social
media and you just give yourselfbreaks as a way of like sort of
saying yes to that innerknowing but not actually giving
it what it needs, I think thatthat will harm your relationship
(40:43):
with yourself and with yourintuition over time.
And then it's that's challenging.
I don't judge people who go offand back on.
I've had people on the podcastwho left and then a year later
were like no, I think I'm goingto go back for six weeks, and
they do that and I think if thatworks for them, that's great.
I'm not in the business ofdeciding if or when anyone
(41:05):
should be on social media, but Ido think from my own experience
that trusting our inner,knowing and really being in
integrity with our needs,desires and values is how we
create lives that nourish andfulfill us, and so I see social
media just really harm that fora lot of people, really harm
(41:27):
that connection with themselves,and sometimes I think that this
off and on, take breaks, comeback cycle is a part of that
problem off and on, take breaks,come back cycle is a part of
that problem.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
That's so interesting and so good to think about
because it's all designed forharm and to pull you away from
yourself anyway.
So I mean that just feels likea bad relationship where you're
just going back for a littlemore of like oh, that's why I
hated, Okay, yeah, that's that'swhy I don't like this person.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, and and that definitely is something I hear a
lot and I think again, like, ifyou're in that position, I
think getting really honest withyourself, asking yourself like,
why am I going back?
Like what is happening therethat I want more of?
Like why am I returning?
Is it because you feel likeyou're missing out on something?
Is it because you need tomarket something in your
(42:23):
business and you don't know howelse to do it?
Because we can find other waysto do those things.
There are very few things thatyou literally can't get anywhere
except social media, maybe alittle more challenging or
different.
You may have to text yourfriend and be like, please send
me photos of your dog instead ofjust seeing them in stories.
But like, can we open ourselvesup to those new and different
(42:47):
ways of being, to thevulnerability of asking instead
of lurking?
Can we be honest about whatwe're desiring and if social
media is a good place to getthat, can we honor our feeling
that it feels bad to be thereand can we make different
choices that feel better for us,maybe not in that immediate
(43:07):
short-term moment, but in thelonger run, as we realign with
our values.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So much to think about, and these are all such
great journaling topics as well.
I definitely will be doing some, as I keep pondering my
imminent breakup.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Well, tell everyone where they can find you not on
Instagram not on Instagram, yeah, so if you're interested in
hearing more about myperspectives on social media,
you can listen to my podcast offthe grid leaving social media
without losing all your clients.
I also offer a free toolkitcalled the leaving social media
(43:49):
toolkit that provides a fivestep plan for leaving any social
media platform, that list of100 ways to share your work off
social media that I mentioned,and a creative marketing ideas
database.
If you're a business owner andwant to plan marketing
experiments that are not onsocial media, that will help you
do that.
You can also find me personallyonline at ameliefrubycom.
(44:13):
And if you'd like to make apodcast together, that is, my
primary work right now isrunning a podcast studio and
that's called Softer Sounds andyou can find it at
softersoundsstudio.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Which you do have a lovely podcast voice also Thank
you.
So I listen to myself when Iyou know edit like social media
clips and you know the ums, thelikes and everything.
And then when I hear somebodywith a really smooth delivery,
I'm like that is so nice.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Well, you know it's been a lot of practice.
I will say Like I've beenpodcasting for eight years now,
I think, and I'm on like mythird or fourth show of my own,
so it comes over time.
We all find our own voice atour own time.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Good to know.
Well, thank you so much forspending time here.
I really appreciate everythingthat you talked about.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and thank
you, listeners, for tuning in,and I just hope everyone knows
that I really am cheering you onin your journey of breaking up
with diet, culture or socialmedia, if that is the journey
that you're on.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
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