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You know how "perfect" is supposed to be the ultimate compliment? 🙋🏻♀️
You LOOK perfect! 😍
Your WORK is perfect! 👍🏼
Your KIDS did perfect! 🏆
Your HOME is perfect! 🏡
Then one day you wake up so exhausted from chasing perfection that you chuck it all out the window...but then you get so afraid of NOT being perfect that you scoop it all back up and try again tomorrow?
If you haven't guessed it, today's podcast episode is all about perfectionism.
Perfectionism is more than meets the eye.
For many, it began as a tool in childhood to stay safe and fly under the radar.
Perfectionism is also celebrated when people have perfect grades or perfect attendance.
This can quickly shift to those perceived to have "perfect bodies" with higher value within societies.
We will talk about how perfectionism is rooted in fear—fear of being wrong, fear of not being "enough," fear of messing up.
It takes practice and understanding to turn towards things like self-kindness and self-compassion to drive away perfectionism.
Perfectionism is a common struggle, but it's not insurmountable. With the right tools and understanding, many can break free from its grip.
I hope this episode leaves you feeling empowered to navigate away from perfectionism in a way that's right for you.
Resources:
…..
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Looking for a personal health coach, well-being speaker, or health education for employees? 🙌🏼
Visit https://heathersayerslehman.com/work-with-me/ for more information.
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not doing it right, when we'redoing it wrong, we're not doing
a good enough job.
This is sort of like B minuswork, when you really should be
getting an A, and that causes alot of fear and anxiety and all
of those same feelings startcoming back up.
What am I afraid of?
(00:20):
And I think that is such agreat question to ask yourself
afraid of, and I think that issuch a great question to ask
yourself.
Hi, and welcome to the Air weBreathe, finding well-being that
works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
(00:40):
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
Hi, and welcome to this episode.
(01:06):
Today we are talking aboutperfection.
If you're anything like me,when you hear perfection, you're
like oh boy, because you knowthat I'm coming for you and
that's also know that I am yoursister in recovery from
perfectionism.
It is so interesting when youlook at these facets of
(01:34):
perfectionism, and that's what Ireally want to do today.
I'm going to break it downbecause there are so many pieces
that I was never conscious ofand I really looked at the whole
thing like a me issue, which,when you are in any systems or
cultures that's the biggest plottwist is everything is supposed
(01:59):
to be made to look like a youissue, and it's not a you issue.
But I'm also going to talkabout how we can move away from
it, because it's not helpful.
It's such a drain on our energyand mental health.
So let's kind of break thisdown a little bit.
And somebody actually reachedout to me and they were talking
(02:23):
about intuitive eating andperfection, because they were
trying to work on theirrelationship with food and they
were trying to move into a morecomfortable, relaxed, easeful
place with food and followingthe tenets of intuitive eating
(02:46):
food.
And following the tenets ofintuitive eating and if you're
not familiar, intuitive eatingis on its fourth edition and
it's by Evelyn Triboli and EliseResch and it's the tenets that
I follow for my relationshipwith food.
I am a certified intuitiveeating counselor and have
recovered from orthorexia, whichis extreme clean eating, which
I found to be incrediblydebilitating, by intuitive
(03:10):
eating.
So there's an explanation forthat, but it's also one of those
things.
So my extreme clean eating,total perfectionism.
And that perfectionism existedbecause I was so afraid of
getting more sick.
So I'd already been diagnosedwith thyroid disease and I just
(03:34):
really fell prey to many of theinfluencers, people that are
full of it, who promote food asmedicine in a way that I could
really heal myself if I wantedto.
And that also really doesn't gowell with perfectionism,
(03:55):
because if you're doing it wellenough, then you should be able
to fix this.
So for my personality it waslike oh, is this a dare?
But really it was all wrappedaround fear and control, because
I was very afraid of gettingmore sick.
I this started before I had mythyroid out, which again felt
(04:17):
like such a failure because Ididn't quote-unquote cure myself
.
And I think that theperfectionism that I learned
definitely was to my detrimentin this area of my life, because
I was trying to do clean eatingso perfectly that then I
(04:37):
couldn't eat out, I couldn'tmeet friends for a meal, I ended
up eating alone a lot because Icontrol my food better, um, and
I just don't even think that Ireally ever do a good job of
encapsulating how dysfunctionalthat is and isolating and the
toll it takes um mentally,because those decisions are all
(05:01):
fearful and anxious and therigidity is really costly.
Anyway, I understand what thisperson is saying of like, oh my
gosh, like, am I intuitivelyeating right, which seems like
almost like a nonsensical.
Like am I intuitively?
(05:22):
Like listening to my body inthe right way?
And if we go in the way, way,way back machine, like I will
say, certainly, growing up as agirl, I was absolutely in a
place where perfectionism got mea lot of the things that I
(05:44):
wanted.
So, um, a story about littleHeather.
I believe that my parents werestill married when this happened
, which my parents got divorcedwhen I was five.
So little Heather is four orfive and coloring in our
coloring book, and then shedecides to bring it to her dad
(06:07):
to show her what she colored forhim and to this day I can
remember him saying like, oh,like you got outside of the
lines here and here.
I don't know what else he said,but I brought him something
that I made for him and hepointed out to me what was wrong
with it.
(06:27):
So many years later, manyinternalized messages later,
that I needed to do things rightor I was going to get criticism
which, like, wouldn't it begreat as a five-year-old if I
was like?
This is kind of like horseshit,because I don't know why you're
being so critical.
It's a great picture, but thatis not the way that the mind of
(06:53):
a child works and we see thingsvery differently when we're
small.
What is said to me was forapproval, I need to do a really
good job, it needs to be perfect, and that approval extends to
feeling, taking care of, feeling, love, being connected,
(07:15):
belonging and, as a child, likewe are really primal creatures.
So that means like, am I goingto be, you know, out of this
group if I am not perfect?
So again, like, childreninternalize messages in a
different way because they'rechildren and it doesn't always
(07:36):
like make sense to us as anadult, but that's how we
perceive things and it's veryappropriate for our
developmental age.
So I definitely learnedperfectionism, growing up also
in a chaotic household as a wayto stay off the radar.
My brother, who had a lot morebehavioral issues and at the
(08:01):
time you know we're in ourfifties now that was, you know
he was quote, unquote, you knowa bad kid, but he most likely
needed um therapy and medication.
Um, and at that time that's notwhat we did to kids with
behavioral problems,unfortunately.
So my brother acted out a lotand he got in a lot of trouble
(08:23):
and I was like, ooh, you knowwhat, I'm not going to do that
because that doesn't look veryfun.
I'm going to work on beingperfect and um.
From a values based in my family, um, being attractive was very
important to my mother, like Iwas always being dressed and
like um, you know, so that Iwould be cute and doing my hair
(08:44):
or bows in my hair, whatever itwas.
Um, being attractive was a highpriority and so I wanted to
make sure that then I alwayslooked nice.
Um, that kept me safe gettinggood grades, being good,
definitely staying off the radar, not getting in trouble, so all
(09:05):
of those things kind ofintertwined.
Certainly, grade wise, well,you need to be pretty perfect to
get all A's and that'sabsolutely what I did.
And you know those things arein service because as a culture,
we do really applaud thingsthat are perfect.
(09:26):
So I got perfect grades, I gotperfect attendance, then I got a
scholarship.
I didn't get a scholarship, butsomebody could.
But I think that it's reallyimportant to understand the
applause, the accolades, thethings that go along with
(09:46):
perfectionism, that are highlyrewarded and, as we're growing
up like we're no dummies, likeokay, well, this seems like a
safe place to be, so maybe I'llstay over here.
So also, there are a lot oflike different cultural pieces.
Certainly, as a woman, I amwell aware that most many
(10:09):
leadership positions are men andto be able to compete with men
you need to be better, andthat's why there are more women
now who are college educated andyet still many of the
leadership positions are men.
But it certainly behooves womento be better and better if
(10:34):
they're trying to competeagainst a culture that has been
really rooted in men being moresuccessful really rooted in men
being more successful.
Do you feel like thedo-it-yourself approach to
improving your healthy habitsdoes nothing except feel
(10:54):
overwhelming, guilt-inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
heathersayerslaymancom backslashhealth dash coaching and click,
(11:17):
let's do it.
So again, like these are allreally smart adaptations when
we're growing up, and certainlyas an adult, what happens is
that voice of perfection tellsus when we're not doing it right
(11:40):
, when we're doing it wrong,we're not doing a good enough
job.
This is sort of like B minuswork, when you really should be
getting an A, and that causes alot of fear and anxiety and all
of those same feelings startcoming back up.
We're like oh my gosh, like isthis mean?
Like I'm not going to be lovedor I'm not going to be part of
(12:00):
the community.
Like I'm not going to be lovedor I'm not going to be part of
the community, like what am Iafraid of?
And I think that is such agreat question to ask yourself
is like, what is it that I'mafraid of?
(12:21):
And I notice that when,especially if I have, like a
client that is giving mefeedback that I've messed
something up, I feel embarrassedbecause I feel like they are
trusting me to do a job and Ishould deliver them a perfect
product and I haven't, I havefailed.
And I think that, starting tolook at that from almost more
and I don't mean it in a rudeway, but like a common sense way
(12:43):
of like yeah, I made a mistake,that is a typo, like I missed
it.
And to be more pragmatic aboutlike of course I'm going to make
a mistake, like these thingshappen.
But really, looking at thefears that come up with, well,
what happens if I'm notintuitively eating quite
(13:06):
perfectly?
And this person that asked mewas actually coaching?
So then like, oh my gosh, ifI'm not doing this perfectly,
how am I supposed to coachpeople and teach them to do it
perfectly?
And then I'm not going to bedoing a good job and I don't
know, maybe somebody will findout and they'll be like, oh my
gosh, she really sucks, shedoesn't know what she's talking
about.
Then I'll be a fraud, or't know, maybe somebody will find out
and they'll be like, oh my gosh,she really sucks, she doesn't
know what she's talking about.
(13:26):
Then I'll be a fraud, or youknow, all of these different
things can really come up and wejust don't always stop to look
at, like what is actuallycausing this?
Like what is underneath this,what is actually causing this?
Like what is underneath this?
So I think there are a lot ofrealities within perfectionism,
(13:51):
because are some people reallyrude if it's not perfect?
Yes, one of my girlfriends doesamazing graphics and she does a
lot of work, like within WorldWar II, and she put out this
infographic about some differentthings about World War II.
She's a buff.
I can't even tell you like whatthese things are, but you know
(14:13):
putting it online and thenpeople are like that's not the
Canadian flag during the time ofthe war and like you know, what
else was it?
Like, oh, that tank is not theright one, or like all these
different things.
Because, again, like, peopleneed to comment, like do you
need to do this?
But apparently they feel theneed to.
(14:33):
It doesn't usually ding thismoment.
It dings a lot of old stuffwhere you felt like you haven't
measured up and there are thingsthat we can do with this.
And I think going in the WaybackMachine is always helpful and
looking at like memories, youknow, because, again, like my
core memory of my dadcriticizing my crayon drawing
(14:58):
and my coloring book that I gaveto him, and obviously that
doesn't stand alone.
You know, these things don'thappen in a vacuum and that
probably wasn't the only one andI know that it wasn't the only
one.
And, um, I also don't think, inhaving conversations with my
dad about that now, um, it waskind of the way he is, and I
(15:20):
don't think like he'snecessarily being mean or cruel.
Um, I think that my dad was afather at 22 after he came back
from Vietnam and his mother diedwhen he was 13 and he didn't
know how to parent and, um, thatbecame part of his parenting.
(15:43):
So, anyway, we'll do an episodeon forgiveness and we'll talk
about all of that.
Back to perfectionism.
There is fear because peoplewill say something.
So you may very well like kindof get cut down and like that
happens, but it starts to costbecause, especially as we take
(16:07):
on more responsibilities, we getolder, we have a bandwidth.
This is my emotional, myphysical, my mental bandwidth
and I just don't always have thetime or energy to do everything
perfectly.
And isn't that okay?
Like, can we make that okay?
So I feel like when I talkabout this, it is an act of self
(16:34):
kindness and self compassion toleave perfectionism behind,
because what if I had bandwidthfor things that were important
to me, instead of obsessing oversomething and making it perfect
?
And you know this comes in.
I see this in a lot of differentgroups and I think around
(16:55):
eating there was a lot of hubbubabout perfectionism, and I see
it in recovery groups as well,of like, oh you know I'm not
eating this right or I reallyblew it because you know I ate
quote unquote too much.
Whatever it is, there's alwaysthis you know I'm not doing it
right and if I do a really deepdive here, these things all feel
(17:25):
like you issues, like you'rejust obsessed with perfectionism
or you know you just need to,like, calm down, you need to
take it down a notch.
But these absolutely are toolsof much greater systemic issues
and when I first started hearingabout this, my brain just
couldn't comprehend.
It didn't make sense to me.
(17:46):
So you may be in that boat andit won't make sense to you, but
then I will be one of the firstpeople to start talking about
this and hopefully you'll hearit more and it will make more
sense.
But absolutely, perfectionism isa tool certainly of the
patriarchy and ultimately, ofwhite supremacy.
(18:07):
And again, I will say when Ifirst started hearing these
conversations like they reallydidn't I couldn't make it land
and I think when people wouldstart to talk about white
supremacy, I would getuncomfortable and I would be
like, ah, I don't know, I don'tknow what to do with this
information.
So I get it If you're like, ah,but follow me here.
(18:31):
So we look at patriarchy, andpatriarchy is obviously
upholding positions of power tomen and it behooves men in
powerful positions to have womenwho are not threatening their
power.
So if I can be worried aboutcoloring outside of the lines or
(18:55):
what my bangs look like or thesize of my waist, I am no threat
to power because I'm at home.
I can't even leave the housebecause my body doesn't look
like what it's supposed to be.
So I'm absolutely not going tobe raising up and pushing back
against that system.
(19:16):
And these concepts get pushed tous so early that, like my
podcast title, the Air weBreathe it is the air we breathe
.
We only know that as like.
Well, this is how I'm a goodgirl, this is how I stay safe,
this is how I move forward, thisis how I achieve, this is how I
(19:38):
get recognized.
So it absolutely has wins.
So it absolutely has wins.
And the twist that I reallystruggled with and I want to say
it was Sonia Renee Taylor whenI was listening on Glennon Doyle
and Abby Wambach and SisterAmanda's podcast we Can Do Hard
Things because they were talkingabout Glennon's recovery from
(20:03):
anorexia and I, sonia ReneeTaylor, did a great job of
coming on and explaining thatwithin her recovery, it was
really important to understandthat this drive for thinness and
this drive for perfection isactually part of the machine
(20:26):
that is white supremacy.
White supremacy because if she'sengaging in that behavior, she
is retaining her proximity topower, her proximity to white
men and with that, she isabsolutely stepping over anybody
who has a more marginalizedidentity and keeping her power.
(20:49):
She is stepping over people anddepleting more of their power
and influence.
I will put in the show noteswhat episode that was, because
it was really interesting to meand I have read her book.
The Body is Not an Apology is afantastic read.
(21:10):
And again, just as a whitewoman who has grown up cisgender
, heterosexual, straight size mywhole life, it's a lot of
things that I haven't had tothink about and I think it's
high time that I startedthinking about these things and
that's why I started studyingmore, because fancying myself as
somebody who doesn't understandanybody outside of herself is
(21:32):
definitely nothing I want to bea part of.
She really did a great job ofexplaining.
You are stepping on my neck andtrying to get ahead in this way
and I thought it was reallyinteresting to look at Glennon
and her recovery and her eatingdisorder and how that is a way
(21:53):
of retaining power and proximity.
I also understand what it'slike being inside of an eating
disorder and it doesn't feellike that.
I will also say I am well awareof the opportunities, the
privileges and also the respectwhich is silly that I get for my
(22:21):
body, being closer to quote,unquote an ideal body.
These things we cannot act like.
These things aren't truebecause I have been in a larger
body and absolutely my healthcare was worse.
I did not feel as respected orI wasn't as engaged by some
(22:45):
people when I was in a largerbody, and some of it is just
palpable, some of it's it's verynoticeable and I think it's
also important to always like,understand that.
Like no wonder people try to beclose to perfect, because the
way that we treat people whoquote unquote aren't perfect is
(23:08):
appalling.
Perfect is appalling, and thefat phobia and the anti-fat
nature of our culture in generalit's like duh.
Like no wonder people areclamoring to try to meet that
ideal because they don't likethe way that they're treated
when they don't.
So these things all make senseand the piece that has helped me
(23:31):
with perfectionism it's justone piece, because it's all a
big puzzle.
Right Is to look at the factthat who I want to be?
(23:54):
No, and that is why I try tospeak to equity and justice and
talk about these things, becauseI don't want to be part of the
problem anymore.
I have been part of the problemfor a long time.
So when we're looking atperfectionism and intuitive
eating, like it is helpful, Ithink, to be like, okay, so this
(24:18):
perfectionism is basically mejust doing a dance and really
falling in line with what thepatriarchy has designed the
entire construct for.
I'm over here worrying about,oh, no, am I intuitively eating
right?
Like am I doing well on stepseven?
(24:39):
Or like, oh, what about numberone?
And I am not standing up tooppressive factions.
I am not, you know, going outand raising hell and making sure
that I am pushing back againstthings that are trying to
oppress marginalized communitiesor myself.
No, again, I'm at home worryingabout my bangs and my waist and
(25:02):
the sides of my butt and, oh,is my skin clear enough?
All of these things.
So when we start to hear thisperfectionism things, so when we
start to hear thisperfectionism, realizing like,
oh, I'm playing the game, I amabsolutely playing the game, I'm
(25:23):
keeping myself small and I'mmaking myself, doubt myself, all
to really just fall in line.
So that is helpful for me.
And I think it's helpfulbecause, you know, I'm more
rebellious by nature and like Idon't want some dude telling me
what to do.
And then when I find myselfdoing these things, it's like,
oh, some dude is telling youwhat to do, don't get it wrong,
(25:45):
you are doing what you'resupposed to do.
So that absolutely helps mecheck myself.
Some people have like smallerconversations within their head
about the perfectionism and Italk about the committee in our
heads all the time and there'sthis voice that is always happy
to point out what I'm doingwrong.
And again, that keeps me small,that keeps me obsessing over
(26:10):
typos, that would keep my friendlike not sleeping as much
because she wants to make surethe Canadian flag is absolutely
perfect on her graphics, andjust understanding that.
It was a blessing at one pointto be a perfectionist because it
kept us safe, we hadaccomplishments, we got
(26:32):
accolades, and now it is more ofa curse and it is exhausting.
It can be really debilitating.
It's tedious, it keeps us fromhaving focus on things that are
truly important in bringing joy,being in service to other
(26:54):
people, making sure our lifefeels full and complete, because
if we are just obsessing overthese things, we can't really
appreciate the big picture.
So hopefully, in like thesedifferent ways, you can see how
perfectionism really does holdyou back, very big picture or
(27:16):
smaller picture, and you have togo with the one that works for
you, like for where you aretoday.
And you know, I really thinkthat we just start taking small
steps to be like no, I'm notfixing that, no, I'm not going
to change that.
Like ugh, I'm going to let thatgo.
And being uncomfortable, feelingthat discomfort and even like
(27:42):
walking through a conversationwith yourself, journaling as you
know, I have a great journaldownload at
heatherserislaymancom BacklashJournal and walking through it
and being like what is thisvoice?
Who is talking to me about thisand why do I feel like I need
to be so obedient to it?
So asking yourself a lot ofquestions when these things come
(28:06):
up and making the smallestefforts to say no, not fixing it
.
And I also think it is really,really important to not
participate with other peopleBecause, again, people making
comments on like friends, workonline, not necessary, get to
life, do something else, butdon't be that person that needs
(28:29):
to pop in and let people knowthat they've messed something up
.
If I've asked you, yes, I'm allears, but unsolicited advice of
letting people know thatthey're not perfect, you are
then perpetuating the system andyou are keeping people small
and you are having them focus onsomething that maybe their eyes
(28:51):
shouldn't be on it anyway.
So some lessons for us all here, but I will absolutely be
talking about perfection in thefuture too, because it's such a
huge topic and it's reallychallenging to walk away from.
But just understand, see thosemarionette strings when you feel
that coming up and understandyou're being played and you are
(29:15):
a pawn in the game when weparticipate in it.
Lots to think about.
I'll see you soon.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
Do you know what would bereally fun If you popped over to
my Instagram at Heather SayersLehman and dropped me a DM and
let me know what topics you wantme to cover?
Something bugging you?
(29:36):
Something holding you up?
Please just let me know and Iwill tweak some content and get
an episode out, just for you.
As always, please follow theshow or you can leave a five
star review on Apple or Spotify.
That would be fun too.
See you in the next episode.