October 3, 2024 • 46 mins
What if the secret to a better self-image isn't in the mirror but in being kind to yourself?
Registered dietitian Julie Duffy Dillon joins me in untangling the messy world of body image and food.
As the host of "Find Your Food Voice," Julie helps people ditch diet culture and society's unrealistic expectations.
We dive deep into body checking, breaking down how to stop obsessing and start feeling good in our own skin.
From celebrity culture to social media, we explore how outside forces warp our view of beauty.
Healing body image isn't always easy; it involves discomfort, joy, and self-awareness.
We also talk about body image through life stages, from teenage angst to pre-menopausal confusion.
Spoiler: gratitude and body neutrality can be game changers.
We can reclaim our stories by recognizing the systems pushing unrealistic beauty standards.
Ultimately, it's all about creating spaces where everyone feels welcome, just as they are.
…..
Find Julie at JulieDuffyDillon.com and Find Your Food Voice Podcast.
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Download your free 3D Journaling Guide here: https://heathersayerslehman.com/journal/
Ready to improve your self-care game? 💕
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
there's like this commonality we all share where
we think like we're all doing itwrong and we're not.
It's just that, like thesesystems are working against us
to try to get us to, like, buytheir products.
Basically.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
wellbeing that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(00:36):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
(00:57):
Hey, everyone, I really enjoyedrecording this episode with
Julie Duffy Dillon.
She's a registered dietitian.
She helps in a lot of differentways PCOS also, helping people
have a healthy relationship withfood, right up my alley.
I wanted to chat with her aboutbody image and, more
specifically, talking about bodychecking.
And if you're not familiar withwhat body checking is, you're
(01:20):
not alone.
Basically, it is assessing andevaluating the size, feel, look
of your body, and when we arebody checking, it can be a lot
of different things.
Just weighing yourself,measuring yourself, trying on
the same clothes, standing infront of the mirror and it
(01:44):
becomes pervasive, can become abit time-consuming, but it's
also a way that we end up makingourselves feel much worse.
And I wanted to talk about bodychecking because we know through
the literature, when peoplebody check, they feel worse
(02:04):
about themselves.
So when I'm trying to helpsomeone have a healthier
relationship with food in theirbody, body checking is something
that we want to move away fromand also I talk about this in
the episode.
But when you think about, likethe little voice in your head,
the voice that is telling you toassess and see how's your body
(02:26):
today Is it good enough, is itnot good enough, does it look
better, does it look worse, thatvoice has nothing good to say.
So it's basically just going tobe let's pick out all the flaws
and again, it's not a surprisethat we feel much worse after
that.
So take a listen and I hope youpick up some hints on body
(02:47):
checking and how to walk awayfrom it and engage in some
behaviors that you're much morelikely to feel better about
yourself Enjoy.
Well, I'm very excited for thisepisode and today we have Julie
Duffy Dillon, and why don't yougo ahead and introduce yourself
, julie?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Sure, well, first of all, thank you, heather, for
inviting me on your show.
I really appreciate it, and somy name is Julie Duffy Dillon
and I've been a registereddietitian for over 25 years and
I help people with a complicatedhistory with food to basically
remove the burden and the shamethat's been dumped on them by
the diet industry so they canenjoy eating again and maybe
(03:30):
explore topics like helpingimprove certain symptoms that
they may be experiencing becauseof health issues, but also
really just getting back to theplace where they feel like they
can eat for I don't know, eat asatisfying meal and feel okay
about it, and I explore thatthrough my writing and through
speaking.
(03:51):
But since we're talking on apodcast, I do have a podcast,
find your Food Voice, wherelisteners write a letter to food
and we help people sort throughit and, yeah, do the same to
help people to kind of removethat shame and blame that they
may have for their complicatedhistory with food.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Which is such a brilliant idea, because I feel
like you know, for most peopleit is so complicated, but you
know a lot of times haven'ttaken the time to really sit
down and sort out.
How do I feel Like where isthis voice from?
Or you?
Know, and really dissect a lotof the pieces which must be
(04:32):
fascinating for you.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it is fascinating.
You know, I do find it reallyinteresting and something that I
wish and I have a feeling youhave experienced this too
talking to people but, like youknow, everyone has their own
stories and their relationshipwith food and their body and
their body image, but there areso many themes and patterns that
come up from person to personthat I often would say to people
(04:56):
I wish you could kind of justbe this fly on my wall for the
rest of my client sessions today, because you would hear that
all all these people areexperiencing the same kind of
shame and if you all are ashamedof this like behavior and you
think you're the only one doingit, like you're not, like this
is kind of like the most commontheme that I hear, as I like
(05:17):
really dive deep in people'slike relationship with food,
like there's like thiscommonality we all share where
we think like we're all doing itwrong and we're not.
It's just that like thesesystems are working against us
to try to get us to like buytheir products.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Basically, yeah, and they're working really well
because everybody is out theresitting like I can't believe
it's just me, like why am I sucha failure?
And which I love that point ofview because I certainly share
with people.
I was trying to put them intoplay.
Then all of these other thingskeep coming up.
(05:53):
It's like you know, you're justpeeling the onion for such a
long time.
(06:14):
And then people are like,should I be here right now?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And it's like, yeah, yeah, a lot of people are kind
of crummy.
Yeah, yeah, it does.
It does feel bad.
As you like, repair all of it.
It can feel really bad anduncomfortable, which is the
opposite, I think, of whatpeople show on social media,
like body liberation and bodypositivity and like I just feel
so happy in my body now.
Yeah, my clients are like, wait, am I doing it wrong?
(06:42):
Like what?
This can't be right.
I'm like, no, this is right.
Yeah, this is like repairingand healing and it feels kind of
murky and, yeah, there's joytoo, but it's all of it.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And well, I'm glad you brought that up, because I
really wanted to talk about bodyimage and body checking today,
because I think that I mean,it's just so pervasive and it's
so deeply rooted that I feelespecially around like body
image and I say this often.
(07:16):
I was just talking in Portland,I was talking about taking
weight out of corporate wellnessprograms and I actually brought
up Lizzo because Lizzo had justmade headlines because you know
, she's on a new weight lossjourney or whatever.
That is 100% Lizzo's business.
(07:36):
And of course, everybody has tojump in and like, oh, is she
taking Ozempic?
Like, oh, no, she's workinghard.
And and I really explained, likeyou just have to understand
that there is no win in any ofthis.
You will never win because,okay, look, she lost weight.
Well, I don't think she did itthe right way.
(07:57):
Like there is not a um, a placewhere you're ever going to be
like, okay, and it's like, Idon't know, I heard that she had
a lot of smoothies.
I don't think that's the rightway to go.
Like it's always, you know,there's always a problem,
because you know you're notsupposed to cross this finish
line into having, you know, thisideal body and all of these
(08:22):
circumstances, and but I thinkthat's also the trick where
people are not realizing that,they think that once they get
here, then it'll be so muchbetter.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, it's like body check and body image and the
discussion of weight.
I think so much of it isportrayed as this, like concrete
final destination.
Part of the seductive side ofthe diet industry is that it
promises permanent weight loss.
Sometimes it'll weave in, likeif you try hard enough, like of
(08:59):
course you have to try, but Iroll my eyes because, of course,
like the research researchshows, it doesn't matter if you
try or not.
Like it's only going to lastfor so long for most people.
Um, and yeah, I think about withlike body checking.
It's basically like body imageis this very fluid concept.
It's not a permanent thing, andI can remember back in my
(09:21):
training and, uh, I did graddegree in counseling and part of
what I remember learning as Iwas like reading through body
image research, was that ourbrain is usually about seven
years behind, like the currentreality, and so our bodies
change, right, like they justchange, and I'm 49.
(09:42):
So, like my body's been througha lot of changes in the last
seven years, just being in my40s and it's if we're like told
and sold that body size, thepermanent, and also like how we
access things and how we aregoing to be included or valuable
.
Of course we're going to wantto have some like proof, some
(10:02):
like receipts, guess of like,yes, okay, I'm okay right now,
or oh, no, I'm not okay.
So it makes sense that bodychecking is increasing because
there's just more and morefixation on weight being the way
to know if someone's valuableor not, even though we get sold
this kind of wishy-washy.
(10:23):
I say like, as like more peopleare challenging the
weight-centric kind of paradigm.
I think there's like morepeople trying to sell diets in a
sneaky way, but still likewe're still wanting that
reassurance.
And when I hear the phrase bodychecking, that's what the first
thing I think of is like, oh,the person's seeking reassurance
, like that's what is needing inthat moment and on some level
(10:46):
that can be.
Is my brain aware of my body inreality?
Like, am I really the size orhow?
Something on the surface, likethat.
But when I hear the wordreassurance, I also think of
deeper things, like are youfeeling worthy in the moment?
Of deeper things like are youfeeling worthy in the moment?
Are you feeling valuable?
(11:07):
Are you feeling seen and heard?
Like it goes into a deeperlevel, right.
So I think it has more meaningthan just like making sure you
look a certain way and taking apose for, like, outfit check on
social media.
I think it's like it goesdeeper, yeah, and so like, how
are you experiencing youryourself and your worth in that
(11:29):
moment?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And can you define body checking, just in case
anybody is not familiar withwhat body checking is.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, and when I first like, when I hear body
checking, I think of it kind ofa clinically, in a clinical way,
just because of my work ineating disorders as a dietician
and behaviors that people willdo to kind of measure and I say
measure kind of loosely becausesometimes it's just like using
(11:59):
arms or pictures.
I say arms like using yourcertain I don't want to tell
exact ways to do it, but likeusing your own unique ways of
measuring things on your body tomake sure they're like where
you want them to be, or alsoreassurance through selfies and
things like that to givefeedback on things, your current
(12:22):
body.
And it can be a behavior again.
When I would work with clientsin the throes of an eating
disorder where visually I couldtell by how they were touching
their body that they were doingconstant body checking, Like
their brains neurons were firingconstantly of like I don't know
(12:44):
if I'm okay right now, so letme check Probably had some
connections to obsessive,compulsive kind of trends you
know and doing checking in thatway.
But then with the how are we'vemoved into like this
normalization of doing fitchecks and before and after
(13:06):
pictures and doing some thingswith like selfies just online,
Like body checking, has alsogone into that area, instead of
just like even posting what aperson currently looks like.
So I don't know if you haveanything you would fill in on
that definition, but that's whatI think of for it.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, and I, you know , absolutely agree to it's
changed.
I mean, when I did my thesis oneating disorders I was a mid
nineties, so it's been so much.
Yeah, a wild ride, because I dohave like proof that we took
selfies in college, but it wasjust a backward picture.
That would then be really yes.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
I remember doing that , yeah, and you'd spent money to
get them developed and be like,oh, what did I do college?
But it was just a backwardpicture that would then be
really blame.
Yes, I remember doing that Tooclose, and you'd spend money to
get them developed and be likeoh, what did I do?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Seemed like a good idea, but it didn't.
When I think of body checkingtoo, I think of you know the,
you know the behaviors of likeyou know weighing a lot and
measuring, of like you knowweighing a lot and measuring,
and you know, I feel like Oprahgave a template with her, like
these jeans that she her comeplay jeans.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yes, I was going to mention that, thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Like this is it?
I have done it because I canwear these jeans and I
definitely think you know,especially for myself, like the
feel like you were talking about.
You can tell when people arebody checking and you know, just
like you know how does myshoulder feel, how does my
stomach feel and when I think ofthose behaviors.
(14:41):
You know, it's definitely justan assessment, just like.
Definitely just an assessment.
Just like let me size myself uphere and that it's never like a
good voice.
That's like you know what,Julie?
Well, let's just say we'regoing to assess everything,
we'll probably get an A plus andthen we'll just move on about
our day and like that voice isnot designed to give A pluses,
(15:04):
it's designed to be, like it'snot permanent.
Yeah, is not designed to give Apluses.
It's designed to be like it'snot permanent.
Yeah, oopsie, like Ooh, what'sgoing on here?
Or um you know like oh, thisnumber is off.
Or even my dad is like um beltloop guy.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, because, you know, my stepmom had an
operation and he couldn't hikeas much and he was on the next
belt loop and which, for me, I'mlike okay bodies change they do
.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
They just change Right.
I'm so glad you mentioned tooabout Oprah with, like, the
jeans or the pants that she wasusing as our measurement,
because I think we're all taughtin some way how to body check
as a normal thing using pants orsome kind of like tailored
clothes, especially as morepeople are shining a light on
(15:55):
BMI and how horrible it is andhow it's rooted in some really
crappy things.
So maybe we shouldn't be usingbody mass index anymore.
And if we're moving away fromweight too, how are we going to
know the health status?
By looking at someone and I'mlike, yes, because you're not
supposed to be able to, becausewe can't, but that's something
(16:17):
that has been around for a longtime, I'm sure before the 90s,
but I can remember in the 90stoo, also being taught like, oh,
you don't need to weighyourself.
(16:48):
No-transcript about your dad,like just, our bodies are going
to change and this is notsomething that everybody likes
to hear.
But one thing we know in likelifespan research is that it's
normal and natural and importantfor our body weight to gain as
(17:08):
we get older until we hit around70.
Because as we hit 70, that'swhen our body usually then is
like metabolically slowing evenmore down and our body like
survives off.
That you know.
And so until you're around 70years old, it's normal and
natural and important to gainweight and there's going to be
times where it's more andthere's going to be times when
(17:30):
it's slower.
But yeah, that's what issupposed to happen.
Our body is supposed to change.
I always think if we're luckyenough to stay alive, then your
body's going to change, so justexpect it.
And what if our world actuallytaught people this from the
beginning, like, yeah, no,you're 30 years old, you're not
(17:51):
going to be wearing your highschool pants anymore.
Those aren't yours anymore.
That's just not typical to dothat.
And why would you forceyourself?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, Do you feel like the do it yourself approach
to improving your healthyhabits does nothing except feel
overwhelming, guilt inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
(18:23):
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
heathersayerslaymancom backslashhealth dash coaching and click,
let's do it Like.
When I think about puberty, Idon't think't think well,
(18:46):
especially there are places thatare like no sex education.
Now I think like maybe for it Ijust said no sex education.
I mean, I live in one of thosestates, yeah, I don't agree with
it but as you learn what isgoing to happen to your body in
puberty, like for a woman, likeyour breasts might get larger.
You're going to get taller.
(19:08):
You'll probably fill out alittle bit, and I definitely
don't remember that ever as atopic, but it's also been so
problematic, and that's wheremany eating disorder behaviors
start, because, like youngergirls are like oh my gosh, like
you know, I'm getting bigger,and then the same thing of like,
okay, well then, when you gothrough pre-menopause, your body
(19:30):
will change as well.
You kind of keep weight in adifferent area because I feel
like that fight, that I hearpeople of the constant
disappointment and constantlybeing upset because it's like
you know, my waist is so muchthicker now or I've got like
more weight in my belly, andit's like that's the deal,
(19:53):
though, like that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that's that that's normal and important,
like that's just part of yourlike genetic experience.
And also, as I said, I was likeI really don't it's not my
business to know, but like why aperson's body weight changes,
but it just we just know it will, right, and if you have access
to, like your biological familytree and you look at people in
(20:18):
your family and how their bodieshave changed over time, if you
could kind of sum all those upin some averages, that's
probably what's going to happento you.
You know, and I wish thatwasn't I know for some people
that are like I don't want thatbut like I wish we were all okay
with that.
And, as I say that there aremany people that I've met not
necessarily clients, but peopleI've met where they love that
(20:42):
their belly looks like theirgrandmother's belly or you know,
like there's like, even thoughit may be culturally, it may be
shunned, but having thatconnection to someone that they
found so beautiful and thatloved them so much kind of
outshines it, you know, and whata great strength like.
(21:02):
And again, if you have access toyour family tree, like we could
all have that like ability tobe like.
Oh, this is just how I'm goingto be looking in different times
in my life and let me just takecare of my body.
You know, like eat in the waythat feels good and move in a
way that suits me and my bodywill just take care of itself.
(21:23):
Like, because the checking likeyou mentioned earlier, the way
that our brain has been trainedto respond to any kind of check,
you know, body check is notfavorable.
It's like that's justculturally, not how we're taught
to do it.
And again, like our body imageis fluid, like it's not this
finite, exact experience of like, yes, I have a great body today
(21:46):
.
It's just like it doesn't worklike that and it's going to be
always changing and it may notbe in the current reality anyway
.
So it's kind of futile to dothat, to have these like body
checks.
It's not, I would say for mostof the time it's going to just
lead to some really negativethings.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So yeah, I think that when I look at like you were
talking about, like here's thebody positive person, like I'm
doing great, I'm doing amazing,and then you know body
neutrality is like kind of is iswhat it is, and body avoidance
of like I just try not to check,be a mirror, be a weight or
(22:30):
whatever, and just like let mybody do its thing.
When you're trying to helpsomeone find a way that is going
to work for them, you know forthat, how do you go about
helping them find a fit fortheir mindset around?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
it Like maybe something that is something
that's going to promote healing,like helping someone to figure
out, like where they can findtheir kind of peace with it.
Sometimes it is exploring otherpeople in their family and like
what their bodies look like.
So if they're wanting to beable to predict a little bit
(23:13):
more and get that reassurance.
But outside of that, you knowso much of healing.
How we relate to our body, Ithink is coming to a place more
often where you can be in yourbody in the present moment and
find a way to not necessarily bejoyful, but like to be neutral,
(23:34):
like you were saying, or toexperience something that feels
like a gratitude or hey, thanksfor beating heart.
I haven't been able to haveenough yet to eat today.
Thanks for keep on going.
You know, having a place whereyou can be grateful for some
(23:54):
part of it and for a lot ofpeople I think we're trained to
get you brought up like stomachsize and how our culturally
we're kind of like we shouldhave this kind of smaller
stomach and especially as we age, that's just not going to
happen for most people.
And so starting with body imagein a place that maybe feels
(24:16):
more neutral, like I have someclients will like look at their
hands or feel their heartbeating, doing something that
maybe is more accessible becauseit doesn't have the same kind
of connotation to it, and in thehands in particular.
That's where I do this likeguided meditation with people
(24:39):
when I'm like first talkingabout their food voice and just
kind of helping them define likehow do they want to relate to
food in their body and so muchof the work.
Like you and I do like we haveour own experiences in our body
and our own ways of experiencingbody neutrality but, like
everybody has their own likeidentities and experiences so
(25:02):
they need to define their ownright.
And as I take people throughthis kind of guided imagery to
help them to figure that out,part of it is to looking at
their hands and just trying topractice like neutrally
observing and of course, I'mlooking at mine right now and I
have like age spots and hair andweird spots and I have
(25:22):
psoriasis so I have bumps on mynails.
You know like just like noticingparts about your hands and
trying to frame it as somethingthat's like a neutral experience
and for some clients they willstart to connect like oh yeah,
my hands look like my mom'shands and just noticing some
(25:44):
things like that, but, as youpractice, neutrally describing a
body part that doesn't have asmany kind of heavy, has much
heaviness to it and then, likeweight in our culture, finding
ways to build it in other areasto and their body.
So yeah, so that's some of thethings that clients and I have
(26:05):
practiced over the years tostart to build, just like maybe
some new neural pathways on,like body neutrality, and then
maybe even carve out some spaceswhere they can experience some
positive or grateful, gratitudeor joy, however that looks for
them.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I think that, um, the being in your body
versus looking at your body toseem, because that's certainly
nothing.
I mean, we grow up likeliterally objectifying
everything because again there'sa headline about it or it just
(26:48):
seems like you know, I certainlygrew up with the inquirer at
the grocery store and the worstbodies and, oh my gosh, they
have cellulite and takingperfectly normal body changes
and then making them appalling.
But I also try to think aboutwhen I see some of those
(27:08):
pictures.
A lot of them are on the beachand it's like this person is
probably having a really funtime.
They're literally on the beach,they're playing in the waves
and for profit, then we've takentheir fun and enjoyment and
family vacation into like ashame fest.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yes, those are so horrible.
That is such a like early 2000smemory that you're describing
like the beach pictures forcelebrities and like trying so
hard to like have the lightinghit a certain way, so like it
would draw attention to anythingthat we would want to call a
flaw.
So horrible yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, and I think then that becomes like, oh, is
this what we're doing?
And I really think, like it isso possible, because I think
that you have to have so muchawareness of the machine that
we're all in that like, oh, likethey're just trying to sell
magazines.
(28:11):
But then like again, thisperson, if we look at it from
being in their body, likethey're boogie boarding or you
know, they're just reallyenjoying walking on the sand to
help people feel safe to dothose things, because I know
certainly my background infitness, like a lot of people
are like you know, I don'treally want to go into the gym
(28:35):
and I used to.
Well, among many things that Iused to say that were
problematic, like, like nobody'sreally paying attention to you,
they're paying attention tothemselves, which is true
sometimes and it's not trueother times.
So a lot of the things that Iused to, I guess, be more
dismissive about, like no, theremight be people paying
(28:59):
attention to you, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
you just have to be able to deal with that in
whatever way that you can tomake sure you still feel like
you belong in that space andthat it's just so fabulous
because it is like and how manypeople are not aware that we're,
(29:28):
we are in this like system,this culture that is teaching us
and demanding to us like wehave to conform in order to be
either seen or not seen,depending on what we want in
that moment, or like thosepeople who maybe also are like
(29:50):
um, watched at the gym, um,maybe, uh, this machine is also
saying, well, we will keep yousafe, you know, cause I know for
some people, their body size isto a point where they don't
feel safe, you know, or theydon't, they're not able to
access a lot of safety.
So, yeah, like being aware thatwe are in this culture that
(30:13):
hasn't even been able to namethat it's basically teaching us
all to have an eating disorderand most people aren't aware of
that.
So, whenever I hear my own likebrain click in some negative or
some kind of um maybe draw forbody checking, one of the first
(30:34):
things I like try to do is likeOoh, ooh, that's happening right
now.
Isn't it Like?
Ooh, that's me feeling?
The, the systems, like theoppressive systems that are
trying to either get me tobelong or feel safe, or whatever
it may be in that moment.
I think I know for me and for alot of people.
That's a way to kind of clickback into place of like, oh wait
(30:56):
, remember who I am and theydon't get a chance to control me
you know, and naming that justyeah helps me to stay in the
present instead of gettingsucked all into that to the
machine.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, and I think that when I certainly look at it
and now you know, certainlythis year has, like, brought new
things on display becausecertainly as a woman, you know,
you've obviously got to look acertain way, you got to keep it
tight, you got to watch yourweight.
But now even like part of thenarrative.
(31:32):
It's like, well, like a realgood woman actually has kids and
is married, like adding to thisfurther narrative that there is
no win for you.
This is all designed to keep youspinning in your head, keep you
small.
Because also, then we watchwhat happens when a woman is
(31:54):
running for president.
Well, we call her by her firstname, we don't call her by her
last name.
And then we have to talk aboutcertainly you'll say Kamala
Harris fits in to the box ofokay, she's got a quote, unquote
, normal average body orwhatever.
But heaven help her if shedoesn't.
(32:15):
Or she's dumpy or frumpy, yes,yes, but it comes from so many,
because then she's annoying orshe's crazy or whatever.
And I think her laughs tooannoying or too loud.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
We can't live with this.
It's so.
It's so obvious, isn't it?
It's like so obvious,especially when you name, like
all these other systems.
Like it's so obvious when ithappens, and I just wish
everyone could see it, becauseif you can see it, then you
don't.
You can choose whether or notto do it, you know, and then
(32:51):
also like all that shame andblame that we have on our
shoulders, like we can remove it.
It's like not ours you know,it's this like world, with all
these things that are pressuringus to like get rid of our cats
and have more babies.
Yeah, whatever, obviously.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Well, and I think too like, because in just
remembering like, and certainlylike you're not crazy or you're
not like, feeling like, is thisweird?
Like it's a hundred percentoppression, like this is if and
especially, I think too likeespecially when white men are
(33:28):
saying it so loud that it's likethe goal is to keep you quiet
and keep you small and you'renot competing for a man's job,
you're not out here, you knowwhatever, live in your life like
happy being outside of this,you know heteronormative ideal
of being married and having afamily and then hopefully taking
(33:50):
a lesser role.
So, again, you're not competingagainst some guy's entitled
lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah you can get all hysterical and no one thinks is
that big of a deal, but then anywoman or like not white,
straight man, like in any waygetting emotional about
something is like we're justweirdos.
Then Something I always thinkabout is that in the 90s I
(34:24):
remember being told that likefeminists were these like angry,
ugly, hairy women yeah, hairy,what the hell.
What an insult and then I sawthat, as I like kind of like
evolved in my own like thinking,I was like, oh yeah, like
(34:44):
there's a reason why we're angry, you know, and it's not just
like just anger, it's all theemotions that we're, all humans,
are going to have, but alsolike there's a lot to be angry
about.
And I can remember a particularclient that I wrote about in my
book.
Her name is Tracy and she Iremember like talking about she
(35:05):
had spent like middle school andpart of high school, um, in the
throes of her eating disorder,and so, as she was like
recovering, she was like I justam so mad that like I didn't get
to experience all these funthings.
And then she really didn't makea lot of friends in high school
because she was worried.
Instead of like going out forpizza, she was like worried
about eating the pizza.
So she just didn't make a lotof friends in high school
(35:25):
because she was worried.
Instead of like going out forpizza, she was like worried
about eating the pizza.
So she just didn't go.
So she didn't make a lot offriends.
So, as she was recovering andrebuilding, um, she was talking
about this anger, and Imentioned something about
feminism.
Like in feminist theory, wetalk about like sometimes, um,
naming what's happening.
It kind of helps, um, to takethe blame off yourself and to
put the anchor where it needs togo.
(35:46):
And she was like I'm not afeminist, they kill the vibe.
And I was like, yeah, back inmy day we called that Debbie
Downers.
But I was like there's a reason,right, there's a reason why
it's killing the vibe.
It's because it's already dead,it's already.
There's already so much to bemad about.
(36:06):
And I can remember her staringat me for five minutes and then
she was like, oh, I get it.
I'm like welcome, but also I'msorry.
But also, yeah, there's a lotand I think we talked about this
earlier there's a lot to belike sad about in this process,
because I think when we aredoing the body checking and
(36:28):
reassuring ourselves, it keepsit on a surface and it keeps us
from feeling some of the deep,dark things, but also like the
really joyful, amazing thingstoo that are underneath.
And so when you kind of like letit all out, you let it all out
and so there's a lot of angerfor a lot of us who are not
socialized to know what to dowith it, and if you find
(36:49):
yourself body checking, that maybe a way to know.
Like, oh, I may be angry aboutsomething.
And honestly, that's whatclients and I would end up
finding out is like if they werelike doing something with their
like their body to check wheresomething was, to get
reassurance.
It was like their literal tellto be like oh, there's an
emotion that wants to come outright now and my body's trying
(37:12):
to protect me from that, that Idon't need to be protected from
it, I'm going to be okay, I canfeel it.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, I think that's such a perfect point because I a
lot of those pieces of I feelunsure or I do not like what I'm
feeling.
I'm going to go weigh myself orI'm going to you know, do some
measurements, try on somethingUm.
and I think certainly in myhistory I would.
(37:42):
I really started to tune inwhen I was whatever worried in
whatever way about my weightCause.
I used to like a lot of likecause I wake up anyway at two or
three in the morning and thenit used to be a lot about that.
And you know, luckily I've gotother topics I can think about
(38:02):
at 2 o'clock, 3 in the morning.
But it became more obvious tome of what is really going on.
This is such a safe topic toperseverate on, because
everybody worries about theirweight and their body, so have
at it.
But absolutely.
(38:23):
Are you worried about somethingin your relationship, or
finances, or somebody sick, likewhat?
What's the real problem here?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, and like, let yourself have a pause to be
able to discern, yeah, what isactually up.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
And I think some of it too, it can be actually up
and I think some of it too itcan be.
You know, I present and I gospeak places.
So I think, when my body waslarger in a very real way, like
I was worried.
Like can I still talk aboutwellness if I'm a woman,
(39:07):
especially talking aboutwellness?
Yes, yeah.
So then it's like oh well, nowI'm just pinging myself with
self doubt you know, but what ifI wore this black dress or no?
you know what we'll do?
You know the pearls?
You know just trying to insteadof, you know, really sitting
with the fact that I feel veryinsecure that people are going
to be judging my size, whichthey do and they will because
(39:31):
like oh, you shouldn't be ableto talk about that.
Yeah, but the body is thecredibility source.
Yeah, and just feeling like,okay, like you're going to have
to sort this out with yourself,of, like there isn't anybody on
this topic that I know who hastalked about this as much, like
I'm perfectly qualified to goand talk about this and, um, you
(39:56):
know, if there's 10 people thatare like she's a little big,
maybe there's one person that'slike, finally, like somebody
that you know looks like me astalking about.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yes, and that's why it's so important to have that
diversity of every kind.
I mean, I feel like in everyspace, but especially in
healthcare discussions, fooddiscussions, body size, eating
disorders.
Having different types ofpeople yeah, because it makes it
safer for other people, likeyou were just describing and,
(40:29):
yeah, makes the actualinterventions then for different
people if there's differentpeople, making them right.
So it's all the same type ofperson.
Yeah, dietitians, it's so sad,but like that's one of the
things that I found out rightaway is like I remember like
going to like a job interviewbefore we had cell phones and
(40:51):
they're like, oh, I'll meet youin this lobby.
They're like it's kind of busy,but I'll find you.
And I'm like, well, how are yougoing to know what's me?
They're like, oh, alldietitians look alike.
And I was like, well, I learned, yeah, I'm like, I'm skinny and
white.
So like, yeah, it was.
And a woman.
So like it was.
It was pretty obvious it was me.
But like, what about mycolleagues who are not those
(41:13):
things you know?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So, yeah, yikes, so yeah, so if we want to like, sum
up, because I, I guess, firstwent to help people create the
awareness that body checking isnot a mental, mentally healthy
activity.
So I think, just you know,being aware of, like, oh, this
(41:38):
habit, hobby of mine, and that'sthat's what I tell myself, and
I say the same thing If I start,nothing good comes from this,
yeah, nothing, yeah, you're notgoing to feel.
You're not gonna feel becauseyou know, now you know I'm 53
and you've got the ag things andthe.
When did the skin start doingthis?
(41:58):
Yeah, there's more to check.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, there's like more things on the list.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah, yeah exactly to be like.
No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
No yeah, I think we both like we wish that nobody
was body checking, but like,obviously we're all taught to do
this.
But also, if you're doing it,we I don't know I like I hope
that someone doesn't feelashamed of it but instead
realizes that like it's servinga purpose and, wow, I wonder
what it's doing and there couldbe some really interesting
(42:29):
things underneath it that youmay find, help you to go in the
direction you want to go in life, just by becoming aware of it,
you know, and what it's tryingto cover up.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, and I think too , like it's probably just
helpful also to be like well, doI feel better after doing this?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And what?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
is that like one time out of a hundred that you're, I
think you're meeting the mark,but for the most part, yeah, it
is yeah.
Information about what you arenot pleased with.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah maybe like the the second, when someone is like
checking, but then like fiveseconds later it feels bad again
.
So, like what is the the longterm impact of body checking?
No, it's not leading youanywhere.
You want to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, I think it is.
It's just such an importanttopic and I you know now that
you know the truth is not alwaysthe truth and reality is not
always the reality.
And then people certainly arelearning, like, okay, how do I
be a person Like, oh, it lookslike I worry about this and it
(43:37):
looks like I worry about that,but that people can start
intervening with themselves,Because I think it's obviously
always awareness, and thentrying new behaviors to say like
, Ooh, is this the kind thing todo, Is this, you know what?
I recommend this for a friend,Right?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Always a great gauge, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I would say get that scale out and just hop on and
off all day long Like in noworld would I recommend that.
And 100% I have been guilty ofrecommending because I haven't
been a scale person for a verylong time.
And 100% like when you'retalking about jeans, like that's
always my cringe because I usedto tell clients that you know
(44:27):
you don't have to weigh yourself, but denim doesn't lie clients
that you don't have to weighyourself but denim doesn't lie.
Unquote.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I have some things in my past too that I really
regret saying, but the apologyis long We've got to be
forgiving.
Yes, the apology is very long,especially because we lived
through the 90s.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, for sure, so Well, why don't you share with
everybody where they can findyou?
I know you've got a book comingup, so that's super exciting.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
It is super exciting.
Thank you, I'm super excitedabout it.
But, yeah, you can find me onmy podcast, find your Food Voice
, but that's also the name ofthe book and it's for anybody
who may be body checking andreally figuring out.
For, like what Heather saidyeah, that it's like nothing
good is coming from this.
So what do I do next?
How do you help yourrelationship with food to feel
(45:16):
like fun again?
So that book comes out in Marchand you can find information on
that and everything else I doat julietaffydilloncom.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Awesome, Well, I appreciate you being here and,
um, certainly, I think it's,it's always, because obviously
you know my friends are allabout my age and you know, like
growing up through all the samethings, and and that's when and
then I look at like Gen Z or GenAlpha and I'm like, oh my gosh,
like seeing the inquirer inpassing at a grocery store is
(45:49):
one thing, but having like amini computer in your hand that
is 24, seven nonstop pushingthese narratives, is horrifying
to think about.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I agree, I agree, yeah, we need so many more
conversations like this.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Well, thank you for being here.
It was very nice getting toknow you a little bit better,
thank you.
Thank you for having me Allright.
Take care, as always.
Please follow show, or you canleave a five-star review on
Apple or Spotify.
That would be fun to see in thenext episode.
there's like this commonality we all share where
we think like we're all doing itwrong and we're not.
It's just that, like thesesystems are working against us
to try to get us to, like, buytheir products.
Basically.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi and welcome to the Air we Breathe, finding
wellbeing that works for you.
I'm your host, heatherSayers-Layman.
I'm a National Board CertifiedHealth and Wellness Coach,
certified Intuitive EatingCounselor and Certified Personal
Trainer.
I help you get organized andconsistent with healthy habits,
without rules, obsession orexhaustion.
This podcast may contain talkabout eating disorders and
(00:36):
disordered eating.
There could also be some adultlanguage here.
Choose wisely if those areproblematic for you.
(00:57):
Hey, everyone, I really enjoyedrecording this episode with
Julie Duffy Dillon.
She's a registered dietitian.
She helps in a lot of differentways PCOS also, helping people
have a healthy relationship withfood, right up my alley.
I wanted to chat with her aboutbody image and, more
specifically, talking about bodychecking.
And if you're not familiar withwhat body checking is, you're
(01:20):
not alone.
Basically, it is assessing andevaluating the size, feel, look
of your body, and when we arebody checking, it can be a lot
of different things.
Just weighing yourself,measuring yourself, trying on
the same clothes, standing infront of the mirror and it
(01:44):
becomes pervasive, can become abit time-consuming, but it's
also a way that we end up makingourselves feel much worse.
And I wanted to talk about bodychecking because we know through
the literature, when peoplebody check, they feel worse
(02:04):
about themselves.
So when I'm trying to helpsomeone have a healthier
relationship with food in theirbody, body checking is something
that we want to move away fromand also I talk about this in
the episode.
But when you think about, likethe little voice in your head,
the voice that is telling you toassess and see how's your body
(02:26):
today Is it good enough, is itnot good enough, does it look
better, does it look worse, thatvoice has nothing good to say.
So it's basically just going tobe let's pick out all the flaws
and again, it's not a surprisethat we feel much worse after
that.
So take a listen and I hope youpick up some hints on body
(02:47):
checking and how to walk awayfrom it and engage in some
behaviors that you're much morelikely to feel better about
yourself Enjoy.
Well, I'm very excited for thisepisode and today we have Julie
Duffy Dillon, and why don't yougo ahead and introduce yourself
, julie?
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Sure, well, first of all, thank you, heather, for
inviting me on your show.
I really appreciate it, and somy name is Julie Duffy Dillon
and I've been a registereddietitian for over 25 years and
I help people with a complicatedhistory with food to basically
remove the burden and the shamethat's been dumped on them by
the diet industry so they canenjoy eating again and maybe
(03:30):
explore topics like helpingimprove certain symptoms that
they may be experiencing becauseof health issues, but also
really just getting back to theplace where they feel like they
can eat for I don't know, eat asatisfying meal and feel okay
about it, and I explore thatthrough my writing and through
speaking.
(03:51):
But since we're talking on apodcast, I do have a podcast,
find your Food Voice, wherelisteners write a letter to food
and we help people sort throughit and, yeah, do the same to
help people to kind of removethat shame and blame that they
may have for their complicatedhistory with food.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Which is such a brilliant idea, because I feel
like you know, for most peopleit is so complicated, but you
know a lot of times haven'ttaken the time to really sit
down and sort out.
How do I feel Like where isthis voice from?
Or you?
Know, and really dissect a lotof the pieces which must be
(04:32):
fascinating for you.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, it is fascinating.
You know, I do find it reallyinteresting and something that I
wish and I have a feeling youhave experienced this too
talking to people but, like youknow, everyone has their own
stories and their relationshipwith food and their body and
their body image, but there areso many themes and patterns that
come up from person to personthat I often would say to people
(04:56):
I wish you could kind of justbe this fly on my wall for the
rest of my client sessions today, because you would hear that
all all these people areexperiencing the same kind of
shame and if you all are ashamedof this like behavior and you
think you're the only one doingit, like you're not, like this
is kind of like the most commontheme that I hear, as I like
(05:17):
really dive deep in people'slike relationship with food,
like there's like thiscommonality we all share where
we think like we're all doing itwrong and we're not.
It's just that like thesesystems are working against us
to try to get us to like buytheir products.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Basically, yeah, and they're working really well
because everybody is out theresitting like I can't believe
it's just me, like why am I sucha failure?
And which I love that point ofview because I certainly share
with people.
I was trying to put them intoplay.
Then all of these other thingskeep coming up.
(05:53):
It's like you know, you're justpeeling the onion for such a
long time.
(06:14):
And then people are like,should I be here right now?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And it's like, yeah, yeah, a lot of people are kind
of crummy.
Yeah, yeah, it does.
It does feel bad.
As you like, repair all of it.
It can feel really bad anduncomfortable, which is the
opposite, I think, of whatpeople show on social media,
like body liberation and bodypositivity and like I just feel
so happy in my body now.
Yeah, my clients are like, wait, am I doing it wrong?
(06:42):
Like what?
This can't be right.
I'm like, no, this is right.
Yeah, this is like repairingand healing and it feels kind of
murky and, yeah, there's joytoo, but it's all of it.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And well, I'm glad you brought that up, because I
really wanted to talk about bodyimage and body checking today,
because I think that I mean,it's just so pervasive and it's
so deeply rooted that I feelespecially around like body
image and I say this often.
(07:16):
I was just talking in Portland,I was talking about taking
weight out of corporate wellnessprograms and I actually brought
up Lizzo because Lizzo had justmade headlines because you know
, she's on a new weight lossjourney or whatever.
That is 100% Lizzo's business.
(07:36):
And of course, everybody has tojump in and like, oh, is she
taking Ozempic?
Like, oh, no, she's workinghard.
And and I really explained, likeyou just have to understand
that there is no win in any ofthis.
You will never win because,okay, look, she lost weight.
Well, I don't think she did itthe right way.
(07:57):
Like there is not a um, a placewhere you're ever going to be
like, okay, and it's like, Idon't know, I heard that she had
a lot of smoothies.
I don't think that's the rightway to go.
Like it's always, you know,there's always a problem,
because you know you're notsupposed to cross this finish
line into having, you know, thisideal body and all of these
(08:22):
circumstances, and but I thinkthat's also the trick where
people are not realizing that,they think that once they get
here, then it'll be so muchbetter.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, it's like body check and body image and the
discussion of weight.
I think so much of it isportrayed as this, like concrete
final destination.
Part of the seductive side ofthe diet industry is that it
promises permanent weight loss.
Sometimes it'll weave in, likeif you try hard enough, like of
(08:59):
course you have to try, but Iroll my eyes because, of course,
like the research researchshows, it doesn't matter if you
try or not.
Like it's only going to lastfor so long for most people.
Um, and yeah, I think about withlike body checking.
It's basically like body imageis this very fluid concept.
It's not a permanent thing, andI can remember back in my
(09:21):
training and, uh, I did graddegree in counseling and part of
what I remember learning as Iwas like reading through body
image research, was that ourbrain is usually about seven
years behind, like the currentreality, and so our bodies
change, right, like they justchange, and I'm 49.
(09:42):
So, like my body's been througha lot of changes in the last
seven years, just being in my40s and it's if we're like told
and sold that body size, thepermanent, and also like how we
access things and how we aregoing to be included or valuable
.
Of course we're going to wantto have some like proof, some
(10:02):
like receipts, guess of like,yes, okay, I'm okay right now,
or oh, no, I'm not okay.
So it makes sense that bodychecking is increasing because
there's just more and morefixation on weight being the way
to know if someone's valuableor not, even though we get sold
this kind of wishy-washy.
(10:23):
I say like, as like more peopleare challenging the
weight-centric kind of paradigm.
I think there's like morepeople trying to sell diets in a
sneaky way, but still likewe're still wanting that
reassurance.
And when I hear the phrase bodychecking, that's what the first
thing I think of is like, oh,the person's seeking reassurance
, like that's what is needing inthat moment and on some level
(10:46):
that can be.
Is my brain aware of my body inreality?
Like, am I really the size orhow?
Something on the surface, likethat.
But when I hear the wordreassurance, I also think of
deeper things, like are youfeeling worthy in the moment?
Of deeper things like are youfeeling worthy in the moment?
Are you feeling valuable?
(11:07):
Are you feeling seen and heard?
Like it goes into a deeperlevel, right.
So I think it has more meaningthan just like making sure you
look a certain way and taking apose for, like, outfit check on
social media.
I think it's like it goesdeeper, yeah, and so like, how
are you experiencing youryourself and your worth in that
(11:29):
moment?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And can you define body checking, just in case
anybody is not familiar withwhat body checking is.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, and when I first like, when I hear body
checking, I think of it kind ofa clinically, in a clinical way,
just because of my work ineating disorders as a dietician
and behaviors that people willdo to kind of measure and I say
measure kind of loosely becausesometimes it's just like using
(11:59):
arms or pictures.
I say arms like using yourcertain I don't want to tell
exact ways to do it, but likeusing your own unique ways of
measuring things on your body tomake sure they're like where
you want them to be, or alsoreassurance through selfies and
things like that to givefeedback on things, your current
(12:22):
body.
And it can be a behavior again.
When I would work with clientsin the throes of an eating
disorder where visually I couldtell by how they were touching
their body that they were doingconstant body checking, Like
their brains neurons were firingconstantly of like I don't know
(12:44):
if I'm okay right now, so letme check Probably had some
connections to obsessive,compulsive kind of trends you
know and doing checking in thatway.
But then with the how are we'vemoved into like this
normalization of doing fitchecks and before and after
(13:06):
pictures and doing some thingswith like selfies just online,
Like body checking, has alsogone into that area, instead of
just like even posting what aperson currently looks like.
So I don't know if you haveanything you would fill in on
that definition, but that's whatI think of for it.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah, and I, you know , absolutely agree to it's
changed.
I mean, when I did my thesis oneating disorders I was a mid
nineties, so it's been so much.
Yeah, a wild ride, because I dohave like proof that we took
selfies in college, but it wasjust a backward picture.
That would then be really yes.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
I remember doing that , yeah, and you'd spent money to
get them developed and be like,oh, what did I do college?
But it was just a backwardpicture that would then be
really blame.
Yes, I remember doing that Tooclose, and you'd spend money to
get them developed and be likeoh, what did I do?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Seemed like a good idea, but it didn't.
When I think of body checkingtoo, I think of you know the,
you know the behaviors of likeyou know weighing a lot and
measuring, of like you knowweighing a lot and measuring,
and you know, I feel like Oprahgave a template with her, like
these jeans that she her comeplay jeans.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yes, I was going to mention that, thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Like this is it?
I have done it because I canwear these jeans and I
definitely think you know,especially for myself, like the
feel like you were talking about.
You can tell when people arebody checking and you know, just
like you know how does myshoulder feel, how does my
stomach feel and when I think ofthose behaviors.
(14:41):
You know, it's definitely justan assessment, just like.
Definitely just an assessment.
Just like let me size myself uphere and that it's never like a
good voice.
That's like you know what,Julie?
Well, let's just say we'regoing to assess everything,
we'll probably get an A plus andthen we'll just move on about
our day and like that voice isnot designed to give A pluses,
(15:04):
it's designed to be, like it'snot permanent.
Yeah, is not designed to give Apluses.
It's designed to be like it'snot permanent.
Yeah, oopsie, like Ooh, what'sgoing on here?
Or um you know like oh, thisnumber is off.
Or even my dad is like um beltloop guy.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, because, you know, my stepmom had an
operation and he couldn't hikeas much and he was on the next
belt loop and which, for me, I'mlike okay bodies change they do
.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
They just change Right.
I'm so glad you mentioned tooabout Oprah with, like, the
jeans or the pants that she wasusing as our measurement,
because I think we're all taughtin some way how to body check
as a normal thing using pants orsome kind of like tailored
clothes, especially as morepeople are shining a light on
(15:55):
BMI and how horrible it is andhow it's rooted in some really
crappy things.
So maybe we shouldn't be usingbody mass index anymore.
And if we're moving away fromweight too, how are we going to
know the health status?
By looking at someone and I'mlike, yes, because you're not
supposed to be able to, becausewe can't, but that's something
(16:17):
that has been around for a longtime, I'm sure before the 90s,
but I can remember in the 90stoo, also being taught like, oh,
you don't need to weighyourself.
(16:48):
No-transcript about your dad,like just, our bodies are going
to change and this is notsomething that everybody likes
to hear.
But one thing we know in likelifespan research is that it's
normal and natural and importantfor our body weight to gain as
(17:08):
we get older until we hit around70.
Because as we hit 70, that'swhen our body usually then is
like metabolically slowing evenmore down and our body like
survives off.
That you know.
And so until you're around 70years old, it's normal and
natural and important to gainweight and there's going to be
times where it's more andthere's going to be times when
(17:30):
it's slower.
But yeah, that's what issupposed to happen.
Our body is supposed to change.
I always think if we're luckyenough to stay alive, then your
body's going to change, so justexpect it.
And what if our world actuallytaught people this from the
beginning, like, yeah, no,you're 30 years old, you're not
(17:51):
going to be wearing your highschool pants anymore.
Those aren't yours anymore.
That's just not typical to dothat.
And why would you forceyourself?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, Do you feel like the do it yourself approach
to improving your healthyhabits does nothing except feel
overwhelming, guilt inducing anddefeating?
You don't need more rules,influencers or structured
programs.
Let me help you discover whatyou want, what works for you and
(18:23):
how to maintain healthy habitsduring the ever-changing
circumstances of your life.
If you're ready to createsystems that stick head to
heathersayerslaymancom backslashhealth dash coaching and click,
let's do it Like.
When I think about puberty, Idon't think't think well,
(18:46):
especially there are places thatare like no sex education.
Now I think like maybe for it Ijust said no sex education.
I mean, I live in one of thosestates, yeah, I don't agree with
it but as you learn what isgoing to happen to your body in
puberty, like for a woman, likeyour breasts might get larger.
You're going to get taller.
(19:08):
You'll probably fill out alittle bit, and I definitely
don't remember that ever as atopic, but it's also been so
problematic, and that's wheremany eating disorder behaviors
start, because, like youngergirls are like oh my gosh, like
you know, I'm getting bigger,and then the same thing of like,
okay, well then, when you gothrough pre-menopause, your body
(19:30):
will change as well.
You kind of keep weight in adifferent area because I feel
like that fight, that I hearpeople of the constant
disappointment and constantlybeing upset because it's like
you know, my waist is so muchthicker now or I've got like
more weight in my belly, andit's like that's the deal,
(19:53):
though, like that's what happens.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that's that that's normal and important,
like that's just part of yourlike genetic experience.
And also, as I said, I was likeI really don't it's not my
business to know, but like why aperson's body weight changes,
but it just we just know it will, right, and if you have access
to, like your biological familytree and you look at people in
(20:18):
your family and how their bodieshave changed over time, if you
could kind of sum all those upin some averages, that's
probably what's going to happento you.
You know, and I wish thatwasn't I know for some people
that are like I don't want thatbut like I wish we were all okay
with that.
And, as I say that there aremany people that I've met not
necessarily clients, but peopleI've met where they love that
(20:42):
their belly looks like theirgrandmother's belly or you know,
like there's like, even thoughit may be culturally, it may be
shunned, but having thatconnection to someone that they
found so beautiful and thatloved them so much kind of
outshines it, you know, and whata great strength like.
(21:02):
And again, if you have access toyour family tree, like we could
all have that like ability tobe like.
Oh, this is just how I'm goingto be looking in different times
in my life and let me just takecare of my body.
You know, like eat in the waythat feels good and move in a
way that suits me and my bodywill just take care of itself.
(21:23):
Like, because the checking likeyou mentioned earlier, the way
that our brain has been trainedto respond to any kind of check,
you know, body check is notfavorable.
It's like that's justculturally, not how we're taught
to do it.
And again, like our body imageis fluid, like it's not this
finite, exact experience of like, yes, I have a great body today
(21:46):
.
It's just like it doesn't worklike that and it's going to be
always changing and it may notbe in the current reality anyway
.
So it's kind of futile to dothat, to have these like body
checks.
It's not, I would say for mostof the time it's going to just
lead to some really negativethings.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
So yeah, I think that when I look at like you were
talking about, like here's thebody positive person, like I'm
doing great, I'm doing amazing,and then you know body
neutrality is like kind of is iswhat it is, and body avoidance
of like I just try not to check,be a mirror, be a weight or
(22:30):
whatever, and just like let mybody do its thing.
When you're trying to helpsomeone find a way that is going
to work for them, you know forthat, how do you go about
helping them find a fit fortheir mindset around?
Speaker 1 (22:53):
it Like maybe something that is something
that's going to promote healing,like helping someone to figure
out, like where they can findtheir kind of peace with it.
Sometimes it is exploring otherpeople in their family and like
what their bodies look like.
So if they're wanting to beable to predict a little bit
(23:13):
more and get that reassurance.
But outside of that, you knowso much of healing.
How we relate to our body, Ithink is coming to a place more
often where you can be in yourbody in the present moment and
find a way to not necessarily bejoyful, but like to be neutral,
(23:34):
like you were saying, or toexperience something that feels
like a gratitude or hey, thanksfor beating heart.
I haven't been able to haveenough yet to eat today.
Thanks for keep on going.
You know, having a place whereyou can be grateful for some
(23:54):
part of it and for a lot ofpeople I think we're trained to
get you brought up like stomachsize and how our culturally
we're kind of like we shouldhave this kind of smaller
stomach and especially as we age, that's just not going to
happen for most people.
And so starting with body imagein a place that maybe feels
(24:16):
more neutral, like I have someclients will like look at their
hands or feel their heartbeating, doing something that
maybe is more accessible becauseit doesn't have the same kind
of connotation to it, and in thehands in particular.
That's where I do this likeguided meditation with people
(24:39):
when I'm like first talkingabout their food voice and just
kind of helping them define likehow do they want to relate to
food in their body and so muchof the work.
Like you and I do like we haveour own experiences in our body
and our own ways of experiencingbody neutrality but, like
everybody has their own likeidentities and experiences so
(25:02):
they need to define their ownright.
And as I take people throughthis kind of guided imagery to
help them to figure that out,part of it is to looking at
their hands and just trying topractice like neutrally
observing and of course, I'mlooking at mine right now and I
have like age spots and hair andweird spots and I have
(25:22):
psoriasis so I have bumps on mynails.
You know like just like noticingparts about your hands and
trying to frame it as somethingthat's like a neutral experience
and for some clients they willstart to connect like oh yeah,
my hands look like my mom'shands and just noticing some
(25:44):
things like that, but, as youpractice, neutrally describing a
body part that doesn't have asmany kind of heavy, has much
heaviness to it and then, likeweight in our culture, finding
ways to build it in other areasto and their body.
So yeah, so that's some of thethings that clients and I have
(26:05):
practiced over the years tostart to build, just like maybe
some new neural pathways on,like body neutrality, and then
maybe even carve out some spaceswhere they can experience some
positive or grateful, gratitudeor joy, however that looks for
them.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I think that, um, the being in your body
versus looking at your body toseem, because that's certainly
nothing.
I mean, we grow up likeliterally objectifying
everything because again there'sa headline about it or it just
(26:48):
seems like you know, I certainlygrew up with the inquirer at
the grocery store and the worstbodies and, oh my gosh, they
have cellulite and takingperfectly normal body changes
and then making them appalling.
But I also try to think aboutwhen I see some of those
(27:08):
pictures.
A lot of them are on the beachand it's like this person is
probably having a really funtime.
They're literally on the beach,they're playing in the waves
and for profit, then we've takentheir fun and enjoyment and
family vacation into like ashame fest.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Yes, those are so horrible.
That is such a like early 2000smemory that you're describing
like the beach pictures forcelebrities and like trying so
hard to like have the lightinghit a certain way, so like it
would draw attention to anythingthat we would want to call a
flaw.
So horrible yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Yeah, and I think then that becomes like, oh, is
this what we're doing?
And I really think, like it isso possible, because I think
that you have to have so muchawareness of the machine that
we're all in that like, oh, likethey're just trying to sell
magazines.
(28:11):
But then like again, thisperson, if we look at it from
being in their body, likethey're boogie boarding or you
know, they're just reallyenjoying walking on the sand to
help people feel safe to dothose things, because I know
certainly my background infitness, like a lot of people
are like you know, I don'treally want to go into the gym
(28:35):
and I used to.
Well, among many things that Iused to say that were
problematic, like, like nobody'sreally paying attention to you,
they're paying attention tothemselves, which is true
sometimes and it's not trueother times.
So a lot of the things that Iused to, I guess, be more
dismissive about, like no, theremight be people paying
(28:59):
attention to you, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
you just have to be able to deal with that in
whatever way that you can tomake sure you still feel like
you belong in that space andthat it's just so fabulous
because it is like and how manypeople are not aware that we're,
(29:28):
we are in this like system,this culture that is teaching us
and demanding to us like wehave to conform in order to be
either seen or not seen,depending on what we want in
that moment, or like thosepeople who maybe also are like
(29:50):
um, watched at the gym, um,maybe, uh, this machine is also
saying, well, we will keep yousafe, you know, cause I know for
some people, their body size isto a point where they don't
feel safe, you know, or theydon't, they're not able to
access a lot of safety.
So, yeah, like being aware thatwe are in this culture that
(30:13):
hasn't even been able to namethat it's basically teaching us
all to have an eating disorderand most people aren't aware of
that.
So, whenever I hear my own likebrain click in some negative or
some kind of um maybe draw forbody checking, one of the first
(30:34):
things I like try to do is likeOoh, ooh, that's happening right
now.
Isn't it Like?
Ooh, that's me feeling?
The, the systems, like theoppressive systems that are
trying to either get me tobelong or feel safe, or whatever
it may be in that moment.
I think I know for me and for alot of people.
That's a way to kind of clickback into place of like, oh wait
(30:56):
, remember who I am and theydon't get a chance to control me
you know, and naming that justyeah helps me to stay in the
present instead of gettingsucked all into that to the
machine.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, and I think that when I certainly look at it
and now you know, certainlythis year has, like, brought new
things on display becausecertainly as a woman, you know,
you've obviously got to look acertain way, you got to keep it
tight, you got to watch yourweight.
But now even like part of thenarrative.
(31:32):
It's like, well, like a realgood woman actually has kids and
is married, like adding to thisfurther narrative that there is
no win for you.
This is all designed to keep youspinning in your head, keep you
small.
Because also, then we watchwhat happens when a woman is
(31:54):
running for president.
Well, we call her by her firstname, we don't call her by her
last name.
And then we have to talk aboutcertainly you'll say Kamala
Harris fits in to the box ofokay, she's got a quote, unquote
, normal average body orwhatever.
But heaven help her if shedoesn't.
(32:15):
Or she's dumpy or frumpy, yes,yes, but it comes from so many,
because then she's annoying orshe's crazy or whatever.
And I think her laughs tooannoying or too loud.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
We can't live with this.
It's so.
It's so obvious, isn't it?
It's like so obvious,especially when you name, like
all these other systems.
Like it's so obvious when ithappens, and I just wish
everyone could see it, becauseif you can see it, then you
don't.
You can choose whether or notto do it, you know, and then
(32:51):
also like all that shame andblame that we have on our
shoulders, like we can remove it.
It's like not ours you know,it's this like world, with all
these things that are pressuringus to like get rid of our cats
and have more babies.
Yeah, whatever, obviously.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Well, and I think too like, because in just
remembering like, and certainlylike you're not crazy or you're
not like, feeling like, is thisweird?
Like it's a hundred percentoppression, like this is if and
especially, I think too likeespecially when white men are
(33:28):
saying it so loud that it's likethe goal is to keep you quiet
and keep you small and you'renot competing for a man's job,
you're not out here, you knowwhatever, live in your life like
happy being outside of this,you know heteronormative ideal
of being married and having afamily and then hopefully taking
(33:50):
a lesser role.
So, again, you're not competingagainst some guy's entitled
lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah you can get all hysterical and no one thinks is
that big of a deal, but then anywoman or like not white,
straight man, like in any waygetting emotional about
something is like we're justweirdos.
Then Something I always thinkabout is that in the 90s I
(34:24):
remember being told that likefeminists were these like angry,
ugly, hairy women yeah, hairy,what the hell.
What an insult and then I sawthat, as I like kind of like
evolved in my own like thinking,I was like, oh yeah, like
(34:44):
there's a reason why we're angry, you know, and it's not just
like just anger, it's all theemotions that we're, all humans,
are going to have, but alsolike there's a lot to be angry
about.
And I can remember a particularclient that I wrote about in my
book.
Her name is Tracy and she Iremember like talking about she
(35:05):
had spent like middle school andpart of high school, um, in the
throes of her eating disorder,and so, as she was like
recovering, she was like I justam so mad that like I didn't get
to experience all these funthings.
And then she really didn't makea lot of friends in high school
because she was worried.
Instead of like going out forpizza, she was like worried
about eating the pizza.
So she just didn't make a lotof friends in high school
(35:25):
because she was worried.
Instead of like going out forpizza, she was like worried
about eating the pizza.
So she just didn't go.
So she didn't make a lot offriends.
So, as she was recovering andrebuilding, um, she was talking
about this anger, and Imentioned something about
feminism.
Like in feminist theory, wetalk about like sometimes, um,
naming what's happening.
It kind of helps, um, to takethe blame off yourself and to
put the anchor where it needs togo.
(35:46):
And she was like I'm not afeminist, they kill the vibe.
And I was like, yeah, back inmy day we called that Debbie
Downers.
But I was like there's a reason,right, there's a reason why
it's killing the vibe.
It's because it's already dead,it's already.
There's already so much to bemad about.
(36:06):
And I can remember her staringat me for five minutes and then
she was like, oh, I get it.
I'm like welcome, but also I'msorry.
But also, yeah, there's a lotand I think we talked about this
earlier there's a lot to belike sad about in this process,
because I think when we aredoing the body checking and
(36:28):
reassuring ourselves, it keepsit on a surface and it keeps us
from feeling some of the deep,dark things, but also like the
really joyful, amazing thingstoo that are underneath.
And so when you kind of like letit all out, you let it all out
and so there's a lot of angerfor a lot of us who are not
socialized to know what to dowith it, and if you find
(36:49):
yourself body checking, that maybe a way to know.
Like, oh, I may be angry aboutsomething.
And honestly, that's whatclients and I would end up
finding out is like if they werelike doing something with their
like their body to check wheresomething was, to get
reassurance.
It was like their literal tellto be like oh, there's an
emotion that wants to come outright now and my body's trying
(37:12):
to protect me from that, that Idon't need to be protected from
it, I'm going to be okay, I canfeel it.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, I think that's such a perfect point because I a
lot of those pieces of I feelunsure or I do not like what I'm
feeling.
I'm going to go weigh myself orI'm going to you know, do some
measurements, try on somethingUm.
and I think certainly in myhistory I would.
(37:42):
I really started to tune inwhen I was whatever worried in
whatever way about my weightCause.
I used to like a lot of likecause I wake up anyway at two or
three in the morning and thenit used to be a lot about that.
And you know, luckily I've gotother topics I can think about
(38:02):
at 2 o'clock, 3 in the morning.
But it became more obvious tome of what is really going on.
This is such a safe topic toperseverate on, because
everybody worries about theirweight and their body, so have
at it.
But absolutely.
(38:23):
Are you worried about somethingin your relationship, or
finances, or somebody sick, likewhat?
What's the real problem here?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, and like, let yourself have a pause to be
able to discern, yeah, what isactually up.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
And I think some of it too, it can be actually up
and I think some of it too itcan be.
You know, I present and I gospeak places.
So I think, when my body waslarger in a very real way, like
I was worried.
Like can I still talk aboutwellness if I'm a woman,
(39:07):
especially talking aboutwellness?
Yes, yeah.
So then it's like oh well, nowI'm just pinging myself with
self doubt you know, but what ifI wore this black dress or no?
you know what we'll do?
You know the pearls?
You know just trying to insteadof, you know, really sitting
with the fact that I feel veryinsecure that people are going
to be judging my size, whichthey do and they will because
(39:31):
like oh, you shouldn't be ableto talk about that.
Yeah, but the body is thecredibility source.
Yeah, and just feeling like,okay, like you're going to have
to sort this out with yourself,of, like there isn't anybody on
this topic that I know who hastalked about this as much, like
I'm perfectly qualified to goand talk about this and, um, you
(39:56):
know, if there's 10 people thatare like she's a little big,
maybe there's one person that'slike, finally, like somebody
that you know looks like me astalking about.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yes, and that's why it's so important to have that
diversity of every kind.
I mean, I feel like in everyspace, but especially in
healthcare discussions, fooddiscussions, body size, eating
disorders.
Having different types ofpeople yeah, because it makes it
safer for other people, likeyou were just describing and,
(40:29):
yeah, makes the actualinterventions then for different
people if there's differentpeople, making them right.
So it's all the same type ofperson.
Yeah, dietitians, it's so sad,but like that's one of the
things that I found out rightaway is like I remember like
going to like a job interviewbefore we had cell phones and
(40:51):
they're like, oh, I'll meet youin this lobby.
They're like it's kind of busy,but I'll find you.
And I'm like, well, how are yougoing to know what's me?
They're like, oh, alldietitians look alike.
And I was like, well, I learned, yeah, I'm like, I'm skinny and
white.
So like, yeah, it was.
And a woman.
So like it was.
It was pretty obvious it was me.
But like, what about mycolleagues who are not those
(41:13):
things you know?
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So, yeah, yikes, so yeah, so if we want to like, sum
up, because I, I guess, firstwent to help people create the
awareness that body checking isnot a mental, mentally healthy
activity.
So I think, just you know,being aware of, like, oh, this
(41:38):
habit, hobby of mine, and that'sthat's what I tell myself, and
I say the same thing If I start,nothing good comes from this,
yeah, nothing, yeah, you're notgoing to feel.
You're not gonna feel becauseyou know, now you know I'm 53
and you've got the ag things andthe.
When did the skin start doingthis?
(41:58):
Yeah, there's more to check.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, there's like more things on the list.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Yeah, yeah exactly to be like.
No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
No yeah, I think we both like we wish that nobody
was body checking, but like,obviously we're all taught to do
this.
But also, if you're doing it,we I don't know I like I hope
that someone doesn't feelashamed of it but instead
realizes that like it's servinga purpose and, wow, I wonder
what it's doing and there couldbe some really interesting
(42:29):
things underneath it that youmay find, help you to go in the
direction you want to go in life, just by becoming aware of it,
you know, and what it's tryingto cover up.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, and I think too , like it's probably just
helpful also to be like well, doI feel better after doing this?
Speaker 1 (42:48):
And what?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
is that like one time out of a hundred that you're, I
think you're meeting the mark,but for the most part, yeah, it
is yeah.
Information about what you arenot pleased with.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah maybe like the the second, when someone is like
checking, but then like fiveseconds later it feels bad again
.
So, like what is the the longterm impact of body checking?
No, it's not leading youanywhere.
You want to go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, I think it is.
It's just such an importanttopic and I you know now that
you know the truth is not alwaysthe truth and reality is not
always the reality.
And then people certainly arelearning, like, okay, how do I
be a person Like, oh, it lookslike I worry about this and it
(43:37):
looks like I worry about that,but that people can start
intervening with themselves,Because I think it's obviously
always awareness, and thentrying new behaviors to say like
, Ooh, is this the kind thing todo, Is this, you know what?
I recommend this for a friend,Right?
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Always a great gauge, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
I would say get that scale out and just hop on and
off all day long Like in noworld would I recommend that.
And 100% I have been guilty ofrecommending because I haven't
been a scale person for a verylong time.
And 100% like when you'retalking about jeans, like that's
always my cringe because I usedto tell clients that you know
(44:27):
you don't have to weigh yourself, but denim doesn't lie clients
that you don't have to weighyourself but denim doesn't lie.
Unquote.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
I have some things in my past too that I really
regret saying, but the apologyis long We've got to be
forgiving.
Yes, the apology is very long,especially because we lived
through the 90s.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, for sure, so Well, why don't you share with
everybody where they can findyou?
I know you've got a book comingup, so that's super exciting.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
It is super exciting.
Thank you, I'm super excitedabout it.
But, yeah, you can find me onmy podcast, find your Food Voice
, but that's also the name ofthe book and it's for anybody
who may be body checking andreally figuring out.
For, like what Heather saidyeah, that it's like nothing
good is coming from this.
So what do I do next?
How do you help yourrelationship with food to feel
(45:16):
like fun again?
So that book comes out in Marchand you can find information on
that and everything else I doat julietaffydilloncom.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Awesome, Well, I appreciate you being here and,
um, certainly, I think it's,it's always, because obviously
you know my friends are allabout my age and you know, like
growing up through all the samethings, and and that's when and
then I look at like Gen Z or GenAlpha and I'm like, oh my gosh,
like seeing the inquirer inpassing at a grocery store is
(45:49):
one thing, but having like amini computer in your hand that
is 24, seven nonstop pushingthese narratives, is horrifying
to think about.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I agree, I agree, yeah, we need so many more
conversations like this.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Well, thank you for being here.
It was very nice getting toknow you a little bit better,
thank you.
Thank you for having me Allright.
Take care, as always.
Please follow show, or you canleave a five-star review on
Apple or Spotify.
That would be fun to see in thenext episode.
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