Tactical Brotherhood: Team E.C.O's Rise in Ontario's Airsoft Scene

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rental advisory.
Now welcome to the Airsoftexperience.
All right, and welcome to theAirsoft experience.

(00:29):
I am your host, michael Mascot,also known as Magic in Ontario
Airsoft.
Today we've got two gentlemenin studio and one on the line
from a team that has been inOntario Airsoft for a very long
time and with no further ado.
Welcome Mike, kyle and Max onthe phone.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
No problem, great to be, here, Awesome.
So we are going to let ourlisteners know all about team
Echo, but first I just want tobriefly go over each of your
Airsoft career.
So basically you know a briefsummary of how long you've been
playing it, when it started andwhen it turned serious.

(01:13):
And let's start with you, Mike.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
So for me, I started playing 20 years ago.
Wow, 20 years.
Yeah, it started.
My beginnings were in paintball, like a lot of people, and I
actually was playing Airsoftbefore I kind of knew it was
Airsoft.
I was using the six millimeterpaintballs which are fired out

(01:36):
of airsoft guns.
They had just opted to loadthem with paintballs and I was
really really, really into thepaintball scene.
And then I was working at a fewpaintball fields and I started
seeing airsofters coming in andpretty much instantly got hooked
.
It's like, wow, here's thisthing that I was trying to do,
or trying to pretend to do, thething that I could just be doing

(01:59):
.
So led me immediately into intoairsoft.
It was a different sport backthen, but you know, in its roots
it's still the same damn thing.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Awesome.
What about you, Kyle?
Where did it start for you?

Speaker 4 (02:13):
Paintball as well.
My dad actually used to work atSergeant Splatter's back in the
day, and so we used to go therequite a bit as I was growing up
and my buddies picked up someCanadian tire airsoft guns.
So we started with that and Iactually ended up buying my
first real airsoft gun off JP,and that's how I got involved
here.
He had said oh, you know, whenyou're, when you're looking for

(02:33):
gear, like, let me know, I canhelp you out, and if you're ever
out like they were playing alot of Clarington those days
he's like you know, I rememberthe games, Let me know, I'll
show you around.
And so that's that's when itgot serious.
So that was I bought the gunoff JP 2019.
And then I started playing withthese guys 2020.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
And that that's you know what to touch on that you
echo guys have put a lot ofairsoft guns into my team's
hands actually recently.
Mike, I think you're one of themajor donors towards the team,
updating to to mostly HPA now, Iguess, since we started
correlating with you guys.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, I don't remember about remember how many
I sold, like 30 or 30.
It was a lot.
I sold a couple hundred overthe last year to get rid of them
anyways.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
For sure.
And Max, what about you?
Where did it all start for you?

Speaker 2 (03:23):
So I've been playing paintball and airsoft since like
2004.
And actually I used to work fora Defcon paintball their indoor
field when they just opened.
It was very close to me and Imet JP.
He showed up one day.
He opened his gun case and Iwas blown away by like airsoft
guns.
I'd been playing like scenariopaintball so I was buying like

(03:45):
paintball guns that looked likeMP5s.
I had one that looked like anXM8 for a long time and then he
lent me a gun for the day andafter that basically I started
playing airsoft full time withEcho and since then I've been
actually hosted a lot of games.
I used to host that SergeantSplatter's weekly.
I hosted at Defcon Outdoor.
I hosted at TQB back when thatwas a field and actually

(04:08):
recently I've been.
Well before Siege closed I wasrunning it for the last three
years along with Aaron and Ryanthe other managers there.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
For sure.
That's actually the first timeI actually met.
You was at Siege.
I think that my team wastraining there for a morning, I
believe a while ago.
I think that's the first timewe met, but it sounds to me
obviously other than you knowKyle, which is the one of the
newbies, I guess you would sayon Echo.

(04:35):
You guys have been around for avery long time in Ontario
Airsoft.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Since 2006.
So we're 18 years currently 18years.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
All under the band of Echo.
All under the band of Echo.
Wow, other than you, you're.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
My fourth year.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Fourth year of Echo, so is Kyle the one of the newest
members, or I guess Keeganwould be.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Keegan's our newest member.
So basically Keegan would bethe newest, then Dobby would be
the next newest and I thinkDobby's in for two years or so,
two and a half maybe.
It's funny when teams come tous and they say you know I've
been around for a while, youknow we've been a team for two
years, like those are.
Our rookies are just gettingbroken in at five, six years.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, I hear that Like.
Even for our team it's aminimum of two years before
you're even considered to belooked at to get a patch to join
us for sure.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
How long have you been with us, Max?

Speaker 2 (05:34):
I've been with Echo since 2006 or 2007.
So yeah, almost 18 years aswell.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Wow and Max, I know you are a crazy CQB player is
what the community and myselfhave noticed.
Do you want to touch a bit onwhere all that kind of came in?
Is that like siege-orienteddays?

Speaker 2 (05:57):
To be honest, I think I'll kind of start at Sergeant
Splatters.
That's where I started playingpaintball.
I was going there on my own asan individual guy and you know,
competing against some of theseguys with a football gun.
I only had like a very cheapCanadian tire gun, but you
quickly learn one to move onenot to move, one to shoot one
not to shoot, and basically youkind of learn how to move up the

(06:17):
field.
And that's kind of the basis ofCQB is understanding how to
navigate through the environment.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, for sure, that's good advice.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Seagr is a bit different, like you have to
really work together with yourteam and understand what's
happening on the field at alltimes, like on different sides
of the field, and also how totake out like key positions
throughout the field.
That are kind of bottlenecks,but overall, like teamwork is
pretty critical.
When it comes to CQB, yeah, forsure.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
I agree 100%.
So let's kind of backtrack alittle bit and let's let our
listeners figure out.
What is Echo?
Where did the name come from,what does it stand for, what is
it and who the fuck are they?

Speaker 3 (06:59):
So Echo's Airsoft's best kept secret.
Echo is the team that you neverheard of, or if you've been
around, you have what Echo is is.
It's an acronym, so it standsfor elite contract operators.
When I founded the team, it wasa different climate.
Airsoft was at a different timeand you couldn't just slap

(07:21):
together a team.
There's teams today that are.
You know, they weren't hereyesterday.
They're team tomorrow.
They're gone the next day.
Patches are all weird andthey're goofy looking and
whatever.
They wanted everything tomatter.
So I took into account you knowthe name, what it means and
what we wanted to embody.
And it was at a time wheregetting gear, getting guns, it

(07:41):
was very different.
It was a different time.
You couldn't just go to fivedifferent stores in the city and
find stuff.
You had to go to key locationsthat looked shady at best.
They had paper over the windows.
You didn't know if you're goingto get mugged or buy an Airsoft
game gun that day.
You know they were.
They were pretty rough andtumble.
Guys couldn't get always thesame gear.

(08:02):
Guys couldn't get always thesame stuff.
So I wanted us to portraycontractors, for a few reasons.
One, our team were a bunch ofserious badasses back then.
I mean serious, we were theoriginal Wagner and two because
the inconsistency in gear.
I didn't want it to matter if,like at one point, I ran a Mad

(08:23):
Max shoddy.
The guy behind me had an AK.
You know, alex had asledgehammer and a breaching
shield.
Like we were, we were to befeared, not not renowned,
because we were all in you knowNATO standard or something like
that.
So it was half out of necessityand half out of just lust for

(08:43):
the joy of just rolling people.
So what we are is represented inour patch.
The shape of our patch matters.
The shape of any militaryuniform patch actually means
what division they're in For us.
The symbol on our patch, thesound waves, the sonic waves you
see, each of them actuallyrepresent the discipline to
become the pearl that's at thecenter of our patch and that is

(09:07):
perfection.
That is the discipline in short, mid and long range weaponry.
We were founded in CQB.
That was our roots.
We dominated that scene forwell over a decade.
Now we've only got better atthat and better at everything
else too.
Echo is evolving, echo ischanging, echo is, echo is a lot

(09:27):
of things.
So what we are is it's prettyfluid, but at its core savages.
That's, that's it.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Savages at heart.
On that note, did you gothrough a bunch of members in
the past?
Are you set at the same groupof guys started in 2006, 2008,
whenever it was, or I knowyou've picked up guys along the
way?
Or have you gotten rid of anyguys Like?
What's the background behindEcho on that end?

Speaker 3 (09:56):
We got rid of lots.
We so, within, along ourjourneys, we faced a problem
that plagues a lot of teams.
We had some cheaters and it'stough.
It's tough to say it, it's hardto admit it, but it's also
important and it's mature andit's responsible for teams to
admit it.
It took me a while because it'slike, okay, you're calling this

(10:19):
guy out but I don't see it.
And it wasn't that like I don'tsee it because I don't want to
see it, it's just that I neversaw it like, show me something.
I saw it.
We overnight cut the team byhalf.
Now I'll apologize to a lot ofguys that got caught up in that,
because 99% of them weren't infact cheaters, they were just
they weren't up to par, so I cutthem at the same time too.

(10:41):
So we dropped from like a 30man team to five or six
overnight, and part of it wasyou know, max will remember this
If you couldn't draw and shootyour pistol in Ipsick standard
time with Ipsick standardaccuracy, you're not for us.
That was the minimum.
If you couldn't engage at longdistance with sniper level of

(11:03):
precision, you're not for us.
So we had a quick skillscompetition and it's like if
you're not part of the half ofthe 1%.
You're not us and we bootedthem all of them one shot.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Nice.
So in the early times of Echo,what was your basic staple field
Like?
Did you guys have a specificspot?
Because back then I wouldimagine there's I don't want to
say fewer fields, becausethere's probably fewer fields
now a day because of C20, allthat garbage going on in the

(11:34):
climate but did all thistraining and everything together
where you kind of became asolid unit.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
We did that at a lot of places, but I think the
biggest forging of the team wasdone at CQB indoors, cqb Toronto
.
We were one of the first teamsthat was, you know, widely
sponsored on many, many fronts.
So we would play for them for acouple of years.
Then, you know, some flash inthe pan team would start up and
they go oh, these guys got moreclout than you guys, it's okay.

(12:03):
Whatever, they'd take them onand we'd wait till they
evaporated and we moved throughthem.
So we played a lot at CQBindoor.
We helped develop CQB outdoorand then played there.
We played at Defcon indoor.
We helped bring Airsoft.
Really, airsoft was almostnon-existent on a weekly basis
in the city.
We pioneered that.

(12:23):
I mean, that's the reality.
If you don't believe it, fuckyou, but that's the reality.
You could find Airsoft everycouple of months.
We had it running every weekand then what happened is some
of the organizations we wereworking with they started
hosting every week.
So then it went to now you canfind three games a week in
Toronto, which is a wholedifferent story.

(12:44):
But yeah, so we were foundedout of the core of Toronto and
we bounced around almost everymajor field in Toronto just
under.
Who was willing to sponsor us?

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Nice.
So you guys floated around youstart becoming a core group of
teammates or training together.
Everything's going good.
Back then was there a set kindof game host that did run big
games, or was it just you guyskind of getting together and
saying, hey, it's an attack anddefend type situation, or how

(13:18):
was it back then?

Speaker 3 (13:20):
So there were big games.
There was a couple of hostsrunning bigger games.
Wolfpack had a bigger game,force Recon had some games,
ghost had, and then, as far asEcho, we ran weekly games and
the formula was simple.
It was we didn't play anybullshit games.
There was no weird relay races,do five backflips, none of this

(13:41):
shit.
It's force on force games.
And the rules were simpleEverybody that showed up, as
many, wanted to show up versusEcho.
It might have been 70 on six,sometimes, wow, might have been
50 on six, but we foughteveryone and all of them every
time, and this went on forprobably close to a decade.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
Holy cow.
So as a newer player On theteam, Kyle, was it nerve
wracking to approach the teamLike was it something that was
natural for you?
Like, how did it all comeacross to where you, as kind of
a newer ish airsoft player, joina team like Echo?

Speaker 4 (14:23):
Well.
So it was made pretty clear atthe start I'm not on the team
until I earned my spot, and Iunderstand that and that was
fair.
I understood that it was goingto take a commitment and I mean
it was.
It was not a short process.
I did it in a sort of quickmanner because we were playing a
lot and I was.
I was there the whole time, butit was still, I think, for me,

(14:45):
nearly five months of like everyother weekend I was there for
either just the day or the wholeweekend, whatever it was.
And what really pushed mineforward specifically was
deadfall.
I know we'll touch on thislater, but Mike was pretty much
the only one on the team thatwent to deadfall before that and

(15:06):
his brother actually had saidif you go, like talking to me,
he was like if you go, I'll go,because he didn't want to go.
I was like I'll do it, I wantto go, and JP, I was JP's
prospect, so because I'm goingnow, jp has to go.
And then at that point everyoneelse was like I guess we're all
going.
So for me it was.

(15:28):
It was definitely intimidating.
I didn't know a lot of thehistory until I started hanging
around more.
But it was clear that they wereall serious and it was clear
that they, all you know, tookcare of each other.
And for me, I was entering thesport with no, no friends.
I was supposed to, but they all, you know, people flake.
Uh, to find a group that wantedto go as often as I did, it was

(15:52):
important and it has turned outpretty well for me in the long
run.
I think.
So it was worth it for sure.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
So, as a brand new player joining, they made it
easy for you to get yourself inthe groove with them, or were
they a bit standoffish?
Or, you know, there wasdefinitely a bit of a
standoffish nature from fromsome of them, but not not
standoffish and like they weredicks.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
To me it was.
You know, you have to earn yourspot here, so I had to make
sure I was.
You know, when I was followingJP, that was when he moves, I
move.
When he shoots, then I canshoot.
And it wasn't.
It wasn't clear that that wasthe way it was supposed to be.
That's just the way that Irealized it should be, because I

(16:35):
had bought an AEG off of him.
He was running his suppressedHPA, uh, mtw, I'm going to give
myself away.
I'm going to give him away If Ishoot first.
I realized very quickly that ifI, you know, let him take the
lead and I watch and I learn,then I'm going to move a lot of
the time.
And so I think that you know,as a new player, that's
important you watch who's, orlike who shows that they know

(16:57):
what they're doing, not evenjust who talks the loudest, but
who shows that they can do whatthey say they can do.
That's where you're going to gofurther.
And so it's not that they madeit easy for me.
It was just I have to shadowthem and I have to learn from
them.
I can't be like oh well, I knowhow to run around the woods and
point a gun at people.
I have to watch and see howthey're doing.
I have to see how they're doingand why they're doing it.

(17:19):
So it's just, it's just aboutwhether you're not your
receptive learner Right and?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
and just to go back, so you said that you were JP's
prospect.
So on echo, basically a membercan put up somebody to bring in.
Is that how it works, yeah?

Speaker 3 (17:43):
So echo is a pretty firm dictatorship, but it's also
got another element to it thatyou know it's like.
You want to be the leader.
Take me down, it's all yours.
You got to take me down first.
You get a seat at the tablewhen you have your patch.

(18:03):
Until you have your patch, yourvoice means nothing on the team
.
You be quiet and learn.
Try to pick up the team, try topick up the trade, try to get
better at what you can do, butthat's it.
That's not your time forvoicing your opinion.
It's your time to learn.

(18:24):
Once you have your patch, thenyou have the right to vote.
Once you have your patch, youcan also bring in a prospect
you're responsible for.
So you vouch for them.
They spend their.
On average, it's a minimum ofone year.
There have been members that,like Kyle, who've been brought
in before.
There's been members that havetaken seven years to get their

(18:44):
patch.
It takes as long as it takes toearn it, and until you get that
patch, you don't get a vote,you don't get a say and you
don't have a seat.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Is there a?
So you say so obviously you're,you're in command.
It's, it's your way of thehighway, correct?
Is there a second in command?

Speaker 3 (19:05):
Yes and no.
So the thing is, this is all.
Echo members are equal in termsof they get their vote.
I use their vote to determine.
You know, I'm the judge,they're the jury.
Let's put it that way.
The reason why is thateverybody needs to be heard
because, you know, only a fooldoesn't listen to expertise
around them.
I evaluate that, but ultimatelyit's easier and more seamless

(19:30):
if we have one person pullingthe trigger on it, because then
there's no back and forth.
So I evaluate all of theinformation inputted and I give
a yay or nay, and that's thedirection we go.
My leaders in the team aresilent.
They don't need to be announced.
Basically, max will step up andusually take that role, or JP

(19:51):
will step up and usually takethat role.
What they say is just uniformlyrespected because they put the
time in Max.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
What's your, your kind of thoughts on bringing new
people into echo and how itworked kind of in your eyes when
you guys were forming the team?
It's a great question.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
So at one point our team was pretty large and
basically the problem we alsoran into is that when it's a
democracy, the team can getsplit up in terms of, like, what
people want to do.
So that's kind of one of thereasons why our team kind of is
a dictatorship, but it actuallyends up working better because
you don't have to spend as muchtime discussing different
options.
Basically, mike will say heyguys, let's go to this game,

(20:34):
what do you guys think?
And then either people are inor they're not, and that system
works very well and overall Ithink that's that's one thing
that other teams should possiblyconsider is actually just
electing somebody to be a teamleader.
Like our fellow team, cal, theyhave Davis their leader and
he's a great guy.
He has good judgment andoverall his guys trust him a lot

(20:56):
and I think again, because ofthat, they're able to get a lot
more things done and they'reable to organize themselves a
lot faster and better.
True, and yeah, as Mike touchedon, like JPMI, like there are a
few guys on our team that havebeen around since the beginning.
They're not always around, butbasically when they come out,
you know what they're doing andit's, it's, it's evident, like

(21:19):
we don't have to pull rank onpeople.
We just we make the suggestionin the moment.
People know it's the right calland we go and do it.
What happens for you guys?

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Because I know team Cal if, if Dave is not going to
an event, none of them go.
So for you guys is that kind ofthe same rule.
Or if you have three guys thatwant to go to an event, do the
three of you go or do you onlygo when you have?
You know, fire team status.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
So, if I can touch on that, actually like basically
part of the lower of our team ina way, because we're the lead
contract operators, we do, likeour history is working as a team
but having individuals spreadout doing like, doing the same
objective, but on our own, andwe've kind of became more of a
cohesive team over time.
But because our kind of metastrategy is that, like, the team

(22:15):
has gone everywhere from, like,one of us going to an event.
There was a time where it wasliterally just me and Mike for a
year going to events and we didactually really well, just the
two of us.
But I think now we have abetter system where people,
everyone basically volunteers togo to games.
We don't really push people tolike, we don't force people to

(22:35):
go to games and I think actuallythat causes that better
attendance.
So we don't really we don'treally worry about that.
Like, anytime people want to goto a game, they suggest it and
usually people want to go.
Yeah, that's true, it's a goodway to look at it.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
For sure, the way I kind of see you guys and I could
be way, way way off pace isyou're basically you're like a
special forces unit, so youattach yourself to kind of
another squad ish if you'resmall numbers and you kind of do
what you guys need to do atyour own pace but assisting that

(23:10):
end of that game.
I've kind of noticed, like I'mgoing to think about that, I'm
going to throw out deadfallbecause honestly, I know, max,
you couldn't make that game butwithout your guys there there
would have been six lifefighters versus everybody else.
So that's a perfect example isyou guys came on, you know you

(23:32):
joined on with a smaller numberof people and you got shit done,
which is seems to be, you know,the MO for Echo in my eyes as
another player in OntarioAirsoft.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, I think that we're a force multiplier for
sure.
There's what this is why I saywe're Ontario Airsoft's best
kept secret, because, you know,in the past you've had podcasts
here, you've had you've hadCalon and Incon, and they're
talking about these things thatthey've accomplished in these,
these great moments there's.

(24:05):
I can't think of any of thosemoments where Echo wasn't there.
I know, for a lot of them Echowas there.
Yeah, like you know, when youhear, well, the first ever recce
team to get squad of the battle, I know I have the patch right
when it's while we went down tothe States and, you know,
assassinated the mayor andblamed it on Jet Desert Fox and

(24:27):
Swamp Sniper, I know I took theshot right.
There's a lot of things there's.
We've accomplished more thatnobody knows about and it's
bittersweet.
I like it.
I like the fact that nobodyknows it because it feeds into
this sort of mystique around ourteam.
At the same time, it's alwaysirksome when I see somebody else
that you know we'll wipe.

(24:49):
A team will all be laying there.
This team will charge through abunch of dead bodies and go
claim their squad of the battle.
They're like look at thisobjective we accomplished.
Yeah, I don't.
We don't blow cover, though,right, and we don't work for
those things.
We work for a different level,but yes, we are.
We are contractors.
That's our, our origins, rightor origins.
We have no problem attachingourselves to a unit.

(25:12):
I remember the first deadfall.
You and I played together, mike.
We were raiding that smallbuilding and, oh yeah, he yells
to me how many echo are with you?
I go, just me and somebody elsethat goes, only one.
My response is how many do youneed?
One is a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
We fucked that building up and that attack.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's for sure I blew that door off its hinges.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
That was at the end of deadfall 2021.
Something like that 21 beforethis big fucking, whatever
happened with the world therefor a couple years.
Great advice, I love to hear it.
You guys as a team to give someadvice to newer players, not

(25:58):
necessarily newer players thatare new to the sport, but
players that have been played,played for a while and are
thinking about joining a team.
Like what advice do you havefor those players that kind of
want to get into more of aserious milsom team?
Uniformed role.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
I'll start with this one.
My advice is simple Make sureyou're ready.
If you're not ready for acompetitive team, if you're not
ready to join a seriousorganization, don't do it,
because you're not just adetriment to yourself, you're a
detriment to that team.
Not only that, if you're anewer player let's say you're a

(26:47):
rookie, you've been playing foreight years or something like
that you have one mouth and twoears.
That should be your ratio ofinformation transfer.
Just listen, listen twice asmuch as you talk To me.
It's irksome, it's a bit gutwrenching when I show up and
there's these guys that are allbadass and we've been around for

(27:10):
two years now.
Like buddy, you are greenerthan fresh cut grass.
You don't know shit.
You could get yourself hurt.
You're likely not going to bearound in six months.
It's worth it to just pay yourrespects, listen and learn and
see what's going on around youand just approach it with that

(27:32):
respect, approach it with thatcalmness.
Find the team that resoundswith you, that follows the same
interests you have, that you canrelate to and give it your all.
Be part of that team, bepresent for that team.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
That's really good advice.
Max, do you have anything toadd for advice for newer teams?

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, I think, like touching on what Mike said, I
think if you want to go out tolike a milson event, you've got
to be prepared in terms of yourkit, You've got to be physically
prepared and you've got to bementally prepared and I think if
most players are missing one ofthose three things, you can
usually go without the kid,which Mike has proven.

(28:13):
If you've seen him go up toDeadpool, it's like a little
little fanny pack with like fourMP5 mags and a granola bar to
Deadpool.
He can do that.
But I don't recommend it.
But, in terms of teams, spend alot of time together, help each
other out, be honest with eachother and try and volunteer to

(28:34):
like go and do things together.
So, even if it's just like goout on like a night hike, if you
guys have nods, go up for ahike or go out for a beer
together, just like you knowbonding with each other.
And if someone can't playbecause they have some financial
issues, sometimes you guys canband together and you know pick
them up or pay for theiradmission, whatever.

(28:54):
But it goes a long way, Likethere were times where I didn't
have a car.
Jp was driving me everywhere.
He's driving me to depot.
He's driving me to airsoftgames, and then there was times
where he didn't have money and Iwas helping him.
So basically, help each otherand spend time together.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's really good advice and that goes a long way,
especially with our team,because you know, times are
definitely tough, especially fordudes that are in the
construction industry, that areseasonal.
Is there sitting at home onPogie right now?
I'm not making that money andlike you talk about games, like
you know, february 1st is comingup.
That's a nightfall or the forceweek.

(29:33):
On nightfall You're going toadd $125 per person that has to
be paid that day, right?
So not necessarily everybodywill have that money.
So it's good to have a team toband together and kind of
support each other in a sportthat they love.
And I'm going to say sport, nothobby, because we're trying to
make this a sport.
It's a legitimate sport.

(29:54):
It's a legitimate sport, like,not according to any liberal or
any sort of actual stand, but inour minds it's a liberal or
it's a sport right now.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
That's for sure.
Endurance sport right,Especially in the milsim
community.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Let's be honest liberals are not really the
authority on sports.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
They're not the authority on anything.
These days, it seems like.
Yeah we're not going to getinto politics because I could
talk all fucking night.
This is a good, this is a goodprecursor.
So you've got the informationfrom team echo on kind of how to
approach joining a team.
So how does somebody join yourteam directly?

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Well, that's a good question.
We have to see substance isreally what it is and not
alcoholism.
No, no, that is an assumed Notsubstance abuse.
Yeah, not substance abuse.
We need to see substance andsubstance.
For us it's actually much moresimilar to like what they look
for in an AV seal.
They're not looking fornecessarily the strongest guy,

(30:57):
the most athletic guy.
We're looking for somebody thatthat you know isn't have an
insane IQ.
We're looking for somebody thatis morally sound.
We're looking for a brother inarms, and a lot of that comes
down to how you become a member.
So the final step to becoming amember ties in with how you

(31:19):
begin as a member, and that isbasically you have to get voted.
If 100% of the vote doesn't sayyes, you don't get patched ever
, or do you have a chance to bevoted again?
You don't get patched until youearn everybody's yes.
So if one brother doesn't feellike you have their back, then

(31:40):
you have none of our backs.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Makes sense.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
So that's what we're looking for.
We're looking for that type ofmoral fiber and personality and
dedication in a member.
And I'll tell you, I think thatthere's something to it.
I would hate, you know.
I would argue we're doing itright if we have members that
have been around for 18 years.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Agree with that.
What about your training likeregime?
Is it something that you guysdo regularly, like, how do you
go about?
And I'm not saying you'recommanding an event in any way,
you've just signed up as a squadecho.
You're going to play an event,doesn't matter which one.

(32:21):
What is the precursor to thatevent for Team Echo?

Speaker 3 (32:28):
So that's going to depend we have at times we have
week after week of training.
At times we've had wholewinters where every two weeks,
every week, we train in acertain aspect.
We're at a place now where wedon't need to do that.
Operators are encouraged totrain on their own.
But we're sharp enough that wedon't necessarily require any

(32:53):
training.
Everybody could use training.
Training is always good andalways relevant, but there's no
necessity for it.
If we have a larger event, wewill simulate certain scenarios
and train for that, often withour sister and brother teams.
Usually it's going to be withlight fighters or with Cal and

(33:13):
we'll simulate vehicle assaults.
But it wasn't that long ago wewere running wave after wave of
drone drop munition training, solearning how to drop on
vehicles from drones.
We do various training likethat, but it's as required In a
lot of ways.
I listened to the last couplepodcasts, particularly the Inc

(33:35):
guys, only because they'reorganization and it's like holy
shit, these guys put in so muchmore work than us.
This is ridiculous.
We are the original Wagnerites.
You get shot in the field.
We're like change radiostations on.
You like see a fucker?
No, it's not that bad, butwe're pretty brutal.
We're harsh when we need to beharsh and we get everybody up to

(33:59):
speed.
Once they're up to speed, it'son them to keep that.
So the answer is yes and no.
Often we do train.
Often we train very, very hardand continuously.
At other times we takeadvantage of not requiring it
and we use that time to stoptraining, which gives our

(34:21):
members a chance to clear up theaffordability aspect.
They can just sort of keeptheir heads down, save their
money, gear up, work onthemselves, work on their
loadouts.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
So, that being said, we've primarily played airsoft
at PRZ, so everybody in thisroom knows every fucking end.
The guy on the phone knowsevery fucking angle at that
field inside and out.
So now, with everything movingto the compound and some other

(34:53):
outdoor events, is that somesort of precursor for you guys
to maybe start doing some sortof different training now that
the AO is completely differentin that sense?
Or is it something that you'vedone so much work together that
you could just mesh at any AOand it is what it is?

(35:14):
What you guys know, just kindof clicks in what?

Speaker 3 (35:16):
do you think, Kyle?

Speaker 4 (35:17):
Yeah, I was going to say we did do a lot of outdoor
training and we still do.
So I think that moving itoutdoors doesn't really change
anything for us.
And even when we were at PRZ wedid spend a lot of times on the
perimeter in the tree line.
You know, it doesn't matter ifwe're in or outside sorry,
indoors or out, it's all thesame.

(35:38):
We work together, the same.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, everything kind of meshes together so you
basically train from you knowyour basic weapons, handling up
to bounding and everything justkind of correlates.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
There's a few guys out there that you see this
weird energy when they clicktogether.
Max and I are one of thosepairs and it really doesn't
matter, we'll be outside doingour thing, you know, smashing
guys at distance, whippinggrenades, doing all that jazz.
And then when we get inside itgets kind of spooky because Max

(36:12):
and I get this weird energywhere it's like we don't need to
talk anymore, we just startdoing the same thing and it
becomes an eerie clockwork.
So our atmosphere doesn'tmatter In terms of you know,
would we change our trainingregime?
I could see definitely somevalue in training there to map
the field a bit better.

(36:33):
I could see some training thereto work with trench systems a
bit better.
And then, of course, you know,at the end of the day, just like
battle, it's all economics, sothe field is a lot closer.
It's a more achievable and morerealistic to train there more
often.
So we'll likely leverage thatand take advantage of that.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
What's your thoughts, max, on training and prepping
for bigger events in differentAOs?

Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think there's a lot of value in that.
I mean, even just on the basiclevel of showing up, setting up
your site and then gearing upand doing a check on your guys
to make sure your guys aregeared out properly.
Even just doing a trial run ofjust that is like worth it
because you know, sometimespeople don't have the correct

(37:22):
gear, especially sometimes newguys.
But in terms of like trainingin different AOs, like you learn
something from everywhere yougo and like Pierre's using an
excellent example, because it'ssuch a mix of like urban and
also like forest fighting, soyou really have to practice like
a lot of different maneuversand you have to learn how to

(37:45):
navigate all the terraindifferently as a team.
So it's very useful to do that.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
For sure, like for me , I am a firm believer in
training, especially right now,my team is focusing on more of a
vehicle training role.
Just because of the compound isopening up a huge amount of
opportunities for more vehiclerelated stuff.
So that's what we're focusingon mainly, but yeah, it's just
definitely something that Iwould suggest doing as a team if

(38:12):
you're trying to get into thatteam setting.
So, on that kind of point, isthere a specific type of game
host that you guys rotate to?
Is there a game host and Idon't mean name them, I mean, is
there a game host that you, orgames game style that you

(38:34):
completely avoid as a teambecause you're just it's just
not for you?
Or do you play every in anygame that you possibly can make
out if you get the numbers to goto?

Speaker 3 (38:43):
Well, I think for most part, we're not interested
in something that's arbitrary.
So hyper unrealistic typeevents really have no interest
to us.
They're fun, we will attendthem out of joy, but it's not
what we want to do as airsofters.
We want to play milsim events.

(39:06):
Do I like games where it's likea SWAT type scenario, where
it's like, okay, you have 30seconds to come up with a battle
plan that's realistic andbreach this unknown area which
you've got a flash of the mapand you're, you know whatever,
taking out some, some terroristsor bullshit bank robbers or who
cares, right?

(39:26):
No, I don't like those events.
Typically, you will not see Echoat them.
You will never see us at aspeedball event ever, or speed
QB I don't even know what thehell they call that shit.
We don't wear jerseys, we don't.
We don't play paintball anymore, because if we wanted to, we'd
still be doing it.
We're playing a differentsports.
We handle it that way.

(39:48):
We gravitate towards milsimevents.
I think that that's kind of thebiggest prerequisite.
We're open to new hosts.
We're open to playing atvarious AOs.
We've played everywhere, from,you know, ottawa to Sudbury to
Mississippi, right, but it'smore.
We want games of quality, gamesthat aren't going to waste our
time and games that have valueto them.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Good answer.
Any of you guys want to touchon that question?
No, I think.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
I'd actually agree with that.
I feel very similarly.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Okay, this year, sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Oh, sorry, I was just going to touch on it.
So I've actually been hostinggames for a very long time.
The one advice I can give tohosts is simplify your rules.
I think the more complex therules get, the less people are
going to read them, the lessthey're going to remember them.
All of the best games that I'vebeen to, including ones that

(40:43):
I've run for other people, havebeen with super simple rules.
For example, mike and I went toa game called Stronghold, which
was at the college, which justdoesn't exist anymore, but rules
were very simple.
One team was defending thecomplex for 24 hours, the other
team had to capture the complexin 24 hours and, in terms of the

(41:05):
actual game rules, there wasnon-ambulatory rules for when
you get hit and that's basicallyit.
And the simpler the rules get,the much easier the game flows
and the more creativity there isallowed on the field.
I agree 100%, so any games thathave a lot of point systems or
just things that are reallyarbitrary.

(41:26):
That's not interesting, andalso most of the players on the
field are not going to ever getto understand how many points
your team has or what to do withit.
So simpler the better, in myopinion.

Speaker 4 (41:38):
So any game.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
If I read the rules and they're too convoluted, I'm
not interested to go.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
I find the points seem to become just random
numbers at the end of the game.
It doesn't necessarily show anyreflection on how the game
really went sometimes.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
I want to know and you know what, I'm very good
friends with almost every gamehost in Ontario how do you
calculate your fucking pointsystem, like, how do you truly
keep track of what's going onand counting points For me?
I've never understood, and I'mnot calling anyone out

(42:16):
specifically, but do you justrandomly come up with a fucking
number at the end of the game?
Must be Because there's somefucking games where there is no
fucking way in hell that thosepoints are accurate, because
rarely like I mean not rarely,but the guys sitting in this
room and on the phone we usuallyplay events till the end of the

(42:37):
event.
So we're on the field seeingeverything that's going on.
So even if there's an excuse of, oh, at the night this faction
didn't do as well, it's likebullshit.
We were at every fucking flagthroughout, throughout the
entire night.
So how did these points?
How are they calculated?
So I think honestly, they justneed to be eliminated in Ontario

(43:02):
airsoft.
There shouldn't be a pointtabulation in any way, shape or
form, cause all that does is thenext fucking day, it opens up
your social media for nothingbut complaints and the useful
banter that doesn't put ourcommunity any farther ahead in

(43:23):
game host and gameplay, which iswhat we're trying to achieve.
It's like going fuckingbackwards.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
I think you hit the nail on the head because you
know we're the type of peoplewhere we go to an event, we stay
for the whole event, we workhard, the whole event and you
know, if the score doesn'treflect like what happened in
the game, it's kind of likeyou're disrespecting our effort
in a way.
That's the play making up ascore, like we all know who won

(43:51):
the game.
Let's be real.
Yeah, it's.
Half the other team went home.
They went home because theywere demoralized, which is a
result of our efforts, and Alsothey're not able to succeed in
their goals, which again is aresult of our effort.
Yeah, you can't Make up randomscores, which is again why I
prefer games where there's anend state that's clear to all

(44:12):
the players, like, for example,if if there was a milson game
where there was a lot ofobjectives on the field but the
meta objective was that when youcapture the other, the other
teams base flag, the game isdone.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
It kind of sets the frameworkfor the priority of the both
teams for what they should bedoing.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, 100%.
I think what's happening andI'm not gonna put any, any
fucking words in anybody's head,but I think what's happening is
game hosts are trying to keeptheir games Point-wise and I'm
air quoting right now reallyclose, because then it doesn't
show that that was a blowout,but really I can probably.

(44:56):
I think I played 17 events lastyear with life fighters and 15
of them were a fucking blowout.
I'll tell you that right now.
And the game should havefucking ended at like one in
that or one in the morning,after Everything was done.
We completed the missions, webeat them down, we have a
fucking Align that can't bebroken and now the other teams

(45:20):
just walking off the field.
At that point the game is done.
And I know, like you may.
You may have mentioned thisearlier in a different episode
or maybe even this one, but I'magreeing with you don't continue
a fucking game that Doesn'thave any right to continue
because you think that you'resaving face in the community,

(45:44):
because all you're doing isyou're fucking pissing off the
guys that, like max said, bustedtheir fucking ass the entire
event as far as it they couldand fought the entire time.
Yes, it could be one-sided, butthe other team should have
pivoted to try to fight thatone-sidedness if they can.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
If you understand what I'm saying, I'll use one of
my favorites Red Road was agood event.
Yep, I had a blast.
Yeah, fantastic event thebridge.
I'm host didn't really.
I think that was the firstgamer, or newer to it anyways.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
He did some smaller games, I guess at their home
field In Fuck what's myclarinets field?
Padua, fuck, sorry so.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
I'll start by acknowledging the fact that I'm
completely fucking ignorant tothis guy.
Okay, other than he's a niceguy, that's.
That's about the extent I knowof battle dwarf, yeah we're
talking about it.
Yeah, so very nice guy, wellspoken, very Well Intentioned
and well thought out, overlycomplex, but very well thought

(46:50):
out and well intentioned.
Guy and game.
The game was over.
We kicked the living shit outof them.
Oh yeah, period, you know it's.
It's very hard to stomach whenit's like, well, you killed them
all, drove them from the land,hung their leader it was a close
one, though.
It was a nail biter like no,you're all fucking dead, oh,

(47:12):
more than dead, exactly now, ifyou want it.
But but what's wrong with that?
Nothing.
And what's wrong if you're onthe other side?
There is no shame in losingHonorably, not at all, in fact.
You could still have a greatfucking time.
And, and the host at that pointwas like, okay, yeah, they all
died and like, you killed theirCP and they're all like driven

(47:32):
from the land.
But the fight continues with who, yeah, with who, and, and they
wanted to make this.
Well, okay, let's just movedown into the central area and
start shooting at each other.
That's fine, let's do it.
We'll call it a different thing.
Now we're playing a differentgame.
Yeah, you want to give us a twofor one special now, red road
is over.
Now we're playing fuck aroundin the bridge.
Yeah, but it is what it is.

(47:54):
It is an event.
There's a, there was abeginning, there wasn't middle
and there sure as shit was anend.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Oh, yeah, and it ended.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Yeah, you can't revive the thing right, and I
think that that's something thathosts are scared of.
But don't be, I Did not pay youby the hour for the event.
Yeah, I paid you for a gamethat runs up to XYZ, and If
you're gonna complain that well,it ended an hour early, well,
don't let it out an hour atleast.
Sit in your fucking car thewhole 24.

(48:22):
I don't care, yeah, but thestory is over.
You know you don't go to thetheater and say, well, the movie
is over, play it again.
It's over, it's done.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
That's a you know what.
That's an awesome point.
And I think game hosts shouldstart saying the game can go up
to 18 hours, up to 16 hours, upto 24 hours.
Because there's been fuckinggames on some smaller game hosts
where I Took my team, which wasa little more Developed as a

(48:55):
team, I'm gonna say for an eventof that caliber, and the event
was over by five o'clock.
Yep, right, there was people.
They didn't want to fight usanymore.
They just they couldn't get astand.
The game was over At that point.
Yeah, it's a little too early,but the saltiness level was so
bad that there's not even apoint to continue the game after

(49:17):
that, because nobody was reallyparticipating or following
anything, because they were justso salty.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
So at that point, send the fucking game you know
what I mean, 100% to you hoststhat run these events.
You know what it looks likewhen you don't end the game.
It looks like if the refereenever gets involved in a
knockout in UFC and you justkeep fucking slugging him and
he's out in.
His mouth is open.
Just just keep filling him.
That's what it looks like toeverybody around you.
It's a.

(49:45):
It's unsafe, eological and it'snot respecting both sides.
You can lose with honor andstill be able to go wow, that
was fucking awesome.
You guys kick the shit out ofus.
Good game, we'll see at thenext one.
And it's cool.
That's what airsoft is.
There will always be a winnerand a loser.
There's no participation medalshere.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
Well, let's see, that's another thing I wanted to
say, was the sportsmanship tome.
Oh sorry, max, are you tryingto say something?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Oh sorry, sorry brother.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
Go ahead.
Okay, I was just gonna say thewhen I'm out there.
If I've, you know, maybesomeone's disagreed with me
hitting them first or whatever.
Okay, it's a game, I'll takethe trade.
I don't care, because we'rehere to play a game.
If I get upset at you and itruins my day Now I'm ruining
someone else's day and it justspirals.
We can have fun at these gamesand take the.

(50:35):
You know it's.
It's still a game.
If there is a Disagreement,it's because it's not accurate.
It's not real life.
You can't tell who shot whofirst, because we're it's, it's
BB's.
So just walk it off and it willall have a better game.
Some of these games end soearly and so salty because
people forget about that, and Ithink that if we want to be
considered a sport, we need tobe pushing the sportsmanship

(50:56):
further and.
I don't think it's.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
It's said often enough at the games For sure,
and max, you have something totouch on yeah, I just.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
I just wanted to comment like so Mike and I have
gone out to a lot of games likethis was years ago.
To be fair, where we played islike all four, but there'd be
like 40 of us against like 200people and and very commonly,
the host of the game would haveto start changing the rules to
give the Other teams anadvantage against us.

Speaker 4 (51:23):
Oh, I fucking.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
It's flattering on one side, but it's also like
what the moves kind of got tolet the game play out the way it
is.
You know, like if 200 you can'tbeat 40 guys.
Maybe you need to regroup andfigure out what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Yeah, send all 200, one attack.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, do whatever you gotta do, like it's possible,
but it does.
It does frustrate, like us,when people have to change the
rules.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, you should never like.
That's a really good advice forgame hosts that I really hope
are listening, do you not?

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Yeah, do not change your fucking rules.
If you're hosting a milsim eventyou're not hosting like a 4 pm
Birthday party, like Let it playout, and when you see that the
other team has lost the game,call it a game, and you guys can
also regroup everyone, say, hey, do you guys want to keep
playing?
We can do something different.
Like Mike touch on, yeah.

(52:16):
Like I Definitely think there'sa big gap in them in the
scenario world right now withlike running smaller milsim, so
making like maybe a 12 or 18hour event, but there's like
smaller missions, yeah, andmaybe each team sends out groups
to do different missionsthroughout the night that have
like a finite end point.
So maybe like a two hourmission to do one thing, another

(52:40):
two hour mission to do anotherthing, something like that.
And like you could alsointegrate that after a longer
event that's ended early.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
You have many missions for sure you could have
Night asset squads.
Go up against just night assetsquads if the game ends early.
And then the those guys stillwant to go at it.
Go at it.
You know what I mean.
Now, there's no bitching.
You both have equal fuckingassets.
It all comes down to who getstheir gun off first and better,
and that's it Exactly.

(53:08):
And to rewind a bit fuck, Ilost my thought.
Oh, when you're on the losingside of a fucking game and and
Say you get trounced from theother side, you're on the losing
side.
Learn from that.
Learn from how your squad didwhat you did good, what you did

(53:30):
poorly, what other squads didpoorly, and adjust your gameplay
the next time going around.
Don't be salty on a loss.
Say good, because it's afucking learning experience.

Speaker 4 (53:44):
Yeah, work harder next time.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Work harder, do something different, move
somewhere else to attacksomebody.
You know what didn't work.
So now focus on gettingyourself and the squads around
you better to achieve the W nexttime, because either way it's a
win, no matter what.
You come out of that situationlearning and, just like Jaco

(54:08):
Wilbrink, says good, somethingfucking goes wrong.
Good, it went wrong for areason.
It went wrong because you needto learn how to not let it go
wrong the next time.
So don't be fucking salty.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
And you know what?
There's a lot of excuse makingtoo.
It plays into it and a lot offucking pussies.
I'll give you an example.
A few years ago we played oneof the risk games I don't know
which one it was.
We didn't have night vision atthe time and the other team did.
So all these pussies out theregoing, oh, but they can see in
the dark.
And it's like okay, but I can't, like who gives a flying fuck?

(54:46):
That's like the-.
It does not change my objective.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Everybody uses that excuse, man.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Could you imagine somebody on the front line going
?
Well, I'm gonna go sit in mycar because it's fucking dark
out here.
I'm sorry, you didn't bringyour fucking Prius right.
So what did we do?
We went and sat on a wall andyou know what we did?
We fucking stomped these nodsas they rolled in Under white
light.
Do you know why?
Because it's all we could do.
We didn't achieve anything, butyou know what we did.

(55:13):
We survived.
We held the point and we mowedthem, the mother fuck down, wave
after wave.
We were outnumbered.
We had no night assets, but wehad dollar store flashlights,
big fuckers that JP bought.
I think he bought nine of themand we duct taped them to this
thing facing in all directions.
And that's all we had andthat's all it took.

(55:33):
Now is flashlights gonna winthe war against night vision?
Sorry, new players, auto-gating, it ain't gonna save you.
You know what it did.
It allowed us to see a littlebit, and that's all we needed.
We could not accomplish anything, but we did far better than
saying well, they have something, I don't have, so I'm going
home.
I'm sorry, boys and girls, Ioften have something you don't

(55:56):
have.
It's not an excuse.
No, that is, you have failedyourself, you failed the
community, you failed your team,your organization, whatever
you've shown up for.
Right?
If it's dark out, that doesn'tmean go camping.
This is not a camping trip,this is an act of war zone,
right?
You know, if we look at anyreal world engagement just to
tie this into it, you know we'llpick anyone you want.

(56:18):
I don't care Iraq.
The Iraqi National Guard didn'tgo home at night.
No Right, they stayed in theirfucking posts.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
They didn't do so well, but they stayed in their
posts, and to that point too,like at the compound, if you
don't have night assets, go tothe trailer park, go to the town
, go to the fucking gas station,because there's street lights
everywhere.
If you're worried about that,stay out of the fucking woods
and fight along the fuckingroads.

(56:46):
There's bunkers set all alongthe road.
For that reason, like, thatfield is designed as a field
where you don't have to havenight assets, sure, it's gonna
help you navigate through thewoods.
Thermals are gonna fuckingdefinitely help you on dark days
, but you have areas to getaround these guys, because those

(57:07):
guys are gonna stick to thewoods, because if not, you're
gonna see them in town creepingbecause the lights are on.
So there's always that option.
Don't let that become an excuse.
And that kind of goes into ournext point here.
What would you guys like to seechanged?
Moving forward in OntarioAirsoft?

Speaker 4 (57:27):
I wanna see people stay to the end of the event.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
For sure.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
Like everybody, it would be nice if very few people
left as soon as the gamestarted, like there's so many
times we see night rolls aroundand people go to sleep for the
whole night or they leave rightat night and I get some people.
They've got theirresponsibilities, but you're
really taking up a ticket forsomeone who could have stayed
the whole event 100%.
That's gotta be the biggestthing.

(57:51):
I would like to see change.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
And I think more people will go the distance if
these game hosts announce it cango up till 16 hours, 100%.
Because now, as a ticketfucking buyer, in the back of my
head it's like, fuck bro, likebecause I've played Deadfall
series, we could get wiped outan hour into the fucking game,

(58:14):
especially me as a commander.
If I die, the game's done.
Like, they take me the game'sover, it's done Right, that
could happen.
So in the back of my mind I amgoing to fight as hard as I
fucking can because this gamecould end at 8 pm.
The other team could get wipedout.
So I think, even just bychanging that little bit, like

(58:37):
for Light Fighter MilsonProductions, none of our games
go past 2 am.
That's the cutoff You're gonnaget your best bang for your buck
.
Your night guys are gonna beable to fight for, you know, six
, seven hours at night, stillright, five, whatever hours at
night, depending on when thegame is, but everybody will stay
on the field for the entireevent if it ends at 2 am, yeah,

(59:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Yeah, you know, a lot of that starts with vetting
these players.
Yeah, you know.
You gotta ask yourself too issome of these players, when they
show up and do these things,they never planned on playing
through the night?
They never, like you didn'tbring your fucking RV and set
out your awning and pull out thekiddie pool?

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Is that a shot at me, motherfucker?

Speaker 3 (59:23):
No, but you see these guys.
You did not spend four hourstending to that rack of ribs and
getting that pig on that roastthere to play the whole fucking
night because somebody's gonnaturn that thing right.
So I think vetting is one thingI'd love to see in the
community anymore.
You know, back in the day toget age verified on ASC you had
to meet somebody, you had to sitat a table with them and they

(59:43):
had to talk to you, take your ID, write it down, be like hey, is
this person a fucking psycho?
You know we need people atthese games being this barrier
and trust me, I'm notvolunteering to be it, but
somebody to be like is thisperson a pussy, right?
And you know I use this foullanguage and say these things a
lot.
I you know, don't take it thewrong way, boys and girls, but

(01:00:05):
it is what it is right.
We're simulating warfare.
If you're offended by this,maybe you should be simulating
something else, right?
Actually, I could go for one ofthose simulations right now,
but anyways, you know I wantpeople to show up and play the
fucking game.
If you don't have gear like vetyourself out.

(01:00:25):
You know Max is a good example.
Max had a hard time for a whilewith his pace.
Max keeps a blistering pace,but regulating that to go for
like the massive games waschallenging.
So you know he has enoughrespect for himself and our team

(01:00:46):
to say like what his limit is.
I think people need to behonest with themselves and be
like hey, you know I can't dothis.
There's no fucking shame forthat.
Like we're sitting at actionarea right now.
You want a two hour long game?
There's a thousand of them here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Oh yeah, lots going on right now, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Like come play, maybe the 24 hour game ain't for you,
and keep this in mind.
You know the more serious gamesthe milsim wests and things
like this that are 48 hoursright.
24 hours ain't a long timeright For some of us.
You know we have youngdaughters that have sleepovers
and the girls are out bouncingon the bed for 24 hours.
If you, as a grown man, can'tkeep yourself awake when you're

(01:01:24):
head up like a newborn fuckingbaby, let's rethink things here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
If I could stay up for easily 24 to 48 hours in
college, I definitely could doit for an event.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Yeah, you can play Diablo for hours we can get
through this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
boys and girls, we'll do it together 100%, and I
think that can kind of relateback to the game host too.
So game hosts and vetting or atleast putting out a description
of what people are actuallygonna go through, might stop
some people from coming, andthat's not a bad thing.

(01:02:04):
Game host shouldn't be doingthis to make fucking money.
Okay, amen, it should be aboutproviding a milsim experience
for the community.
I'll tell you right now, I owntwo airsoft fields.
Okay, they are not fuckingmoney makers in any way, shape

(01:02:25):
or form.
Okay, I have a differentbusiness, nine to five that pays
my bills.
The only reason we do this isfor the community to have a
place to play and because I'mfucking obsessed with airsoft.
Okay, I love playing it.
That's the only reason Istarted this thing.
So if game hosts give more of arealistic description of an

(01:02:48):
expectation for the player, thenI think that the players that
aren't going to play the fullevent might be swayed to come to
that event if they know thatthere's gonna be a certain
amount of this, that and thisthat has to be done.
What do you guys think aboutthat?

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
I think for sure.
I think we've let ourselvesdown by the elders in the
community not saying things.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
And I think a lot of that is pushed back because
there's a lot of fucking rookiesthat walk around like they know
what the fuck they're talkingabout they're king shit yeah.
Like oh yeah, I've been playingfor two years.
I have $24,000 night vision.
You have shit between your earstoo.
Yeah, Right, Like you have tosign out there for army issue
surplus.
Go to army issue surplus.
Look at a three day assaultpack.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Three days.
You're going to a 24 hour milsim and you're packed for a
fucking month.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Oh my God the 90 liter rucksack.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
You can go to battle in the real world Big boy stuff,
yeah, with a three day assaultpack for three days, it's all in
the fucking name.
Yet you can't go seven hours ofbeing awake before you need to
stop and have the Kobe Marushibarbecue at the side of the
fucking road there we have aproblem, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
We have a big problem in Ontario Airsoft and we're
trying to claw our way out ofthat end of it.
It's hard to you need to makesure that that number is what
the player is getting.
Okay, and I don't mean fuckingfancy pants, patches and shit
like that.
I mean true, fucking hardcoregameplay that they're playing

(01:04:30):
for.
So they should have an actionpacked game, not just physically
but mentally for what they'recharging.
That's what they should becharging for.
You shouldn't be.
I gotta charge $225 a ticketbecause each faction is getting
a patch and everybody's gettinga doodle book and you're getting

(01:04:53):
a fucking M81, fucking pair ofsunglasses.
Like, that shit needs tofucking stop.
You need to.
Just the field needs to makewhat the field needs to make,
right and other than that.
Honestly, the rest of the moneyshould go to props and making

(01:05:14):
that game work.
Okay, if you're doing this tomake money, like Mike said
earlier, to buy your fucking youknow your team, to get Gucci
shit and all that stuff, all themoney that you make as a game
host which is fuck all should goto the next game and your game
should just consistently getbetter, right?

(01:05:36):
I'm just putting that out thereand I'm sure I'm going to get
flack for it, but I reallyhonestly don't give a fuck.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
I hope you get flack because I think I think it's
important for people to realizewho's got a problem with this.
Yeah, these are the same peoplethat are walking away with 10,
15, $20,000 a game.
I'm okay with that, but youknow people got to make money.
I'm not naive.
I think people's time isvaluable, but you're not billing
at a lawyer's rate, right?

(01:06:01):
If you're putting in time andeffort, make some money for
yourself.
You know your efforts shouldn'tgo unnoticed.
I don't think anybody wouldhave a problem with that, but
add some substance to it.
If it's like the differencebetween I can spend $100 at a
game or 120 because I get afucking patch, keep your patch.

(01:06:21):
Give me my $20 back.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Can I refund the patch?

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
I'm sorry I don't wear anybody's patch, but my
teams, I enjoy it, I like it.
It's cool, I like it, but maybeincluded or don't do it at all.
Yeah Right, I don't need abaggie, I don't need to feel
like I.
Just I was five years old andwent to the dentist office.
Get my little dental floss andtoothbrush there.
Fuck your garbage, right, youknow what Substance Give me?

(01:06:47):
Give me.
Give me a grenade, give me somesmoke grenades.
There you go.
A lot of players don't buythese things because airsofters
are, by and large, young peopleand they're kind of fucking
broke.
Maybe if we if we included witha couple players here, at
random, let's say, hand out acouple of grenades to add
ambience to it, add effect tothe grenade what a great way to

(01:07:07):
get Pyro out across the fieldright and put them in the hands
of people that otherwise maybenever would have thrown it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
And force recon is really actually good for that.
I'm going to name drop that 150smoke grenades were handed out
at fucking daybreak alone and Iwas on game control for that.
That, honestly, that type ofshit adds another element.
Just be like you did somethingfucking cool.
That was a cool kill.
Here's a fucking smoke grenade.

(01:07:34):
Go fucking hook it in thattrench.
You know what I mean and yousee it in their eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
You see it when they give it to some you know 16, 17
year old kid, that is net.
They don't have $25 to buy onegrenade that they throw and it's
gone.
Yeah, you give it to them andthey throw that first one.
They're like I get it now.
It clicks right.
So, yeah, good on them for that.
That's just one of a billionexamples of how we could wisely
use that money.
But there's only one way youshouldn't.

(01:07:59):
Don't line your pockets.
Yeah, you're not helping thecommunity, you're not helping
economy around airsoft, that'sfor sure.
We don't get better becausewe're all a little broker and
went to your event, right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
The other thing I kind of don't understand about
the high ticket prices is if youwant numbers at your game,
wouldn't you make it affordableto get more players to come?
Or are you going to put a pricetag?
Because I'll tell you right nowI know five full squads that

(01:08:32):
aren't going to a major eventthis year just because of the
price of it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Yeah, I mean we've backed out of events or at least
we've looked at ourselves andbe like we're not, we're not
fucking doing this, because theprice point, you know, it's the
pot calling the kettle black.
Because you know we're we, wejust shot the podcast with you
earlier.
We're going to be running anevent.
It's not going to be cheap,yeah, but there's a difference.
It's not cheap, but if youdon't believe me, buy once and

(01:08:58):
never again.
If you don't, if you don'texperience it, you'll see the
money spent, yeah Right, it'swell spent.
So I think that's thedifference.
If I knew, if I knew in myheart of hearts it was going to
be, you know everything I wantedit to be, I'd spend everything.
Right, I'd spend every pennythey asked for.
Yeah, but there's apprehensionbecause the community is being
scolded.

(01:09:19):
The communities had a lot of newhosts with really limited or no
experience in a larger scale.
Pop up, they're, they'reovernights, right, they're um,
they show up and, like that oneat Clarington we did a while ago
, like I don't know who the fuckthese guys are.
They just show up and all of asudden they're hosts.
I don't know who you are, butfuck you.
Um, it's just shit, it'srobbery.

(01:09:40):
It's not fair to do this to newplayers.
Please start out, you know,don't shy away from hosting Step
up.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
But find your ground.
I think the best thing to doand that's what I I kind of did
was I sat back and I watched, Ilistened and I played.
And then I got on to the otherend of it like game control,
slash host, slash game help,with some of the other event
hosts and I kind of seen theropes of what to do and what not

(01:10:12):
to do like, especially likegreen mile, like I want to
mention green mile.
That event wouldn't even existtoday if, if we weren't involved
in it, cause we were the onlyones that had fucking vehicles
back then for the very first one.
So the very first green mile Iwas two I C for, and then
actually last minute the guybacked out so I ended up fucking

(01:10:34):
leading it, and then last yearand the year before that, so
there's been three, and thenthis year will be a change.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
And that's the collaboration right.
These are hosts working withthe community within the
community.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
That's what we need right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
You're not out there to pillage the community.
You're there to coexist and bepart of the community, work with
them, work for them.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
And pick the right kind of people or crews or
vetted teams to kind of lead inyour games as an example.
That way they can kind of youknow, in a rude way heard the
rest of the people that are kindof lost with their guns in the
fucking air just shooting updoing nothing.
So that's very important forgame hosts to kind of wrap their

(01:11:19):
head around.
But we're kind of getting offtopic a little bit.
What do we go?
We went over.
You particularly work withtwo-ish teams.
You do play with a lot of otherteams, but mainly as far as
training goes, we kind of stickto, you know, a certain group
Now that may grow or that mayshrink in the future, who knows
but it's just always good toplay with and against those

(01:11:43):
teams, to kind of push yourselfso to have other teams that you
can kind of go up against.
On certain games you could havea bunch of newbies versus, you
know, airsofters that have beenthere for a good old time.
Like I'll go and sign up forthe newbies.
You know what I mean, just togive it a little bit of a hustle
.
Is there any other hosts orteams that you can kind of, in

(01:12:09):
your head, off the bat, want towork with out of the blue.

Speaker 3 (01:12:14):
Yeah, um.
So I have a profound respectfor, for a lot of teams out
there.
You know and I don't want itbeing misconstrued that I'm sort
of fucked this and you knowyou're pussy, whatever there's
also a lot of teams that I havea tremendous, tremendous respect
for Um.
We've had a fantastic timeplaying with um with the cry
wolf guys in the past.

(01:12:34):
You know Jody's crew they're.
They're really, really rocksolid.
Oh yeah, um.
We we've played with the inkguys.
You know recently, um, that wasat daybreak, I believe it was,
wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
Daybreak and nightfall.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
Daybreak and nightfall.
You know, it was really goodworking with those guys, all
your guys, the light fighterguys.
Um, cal and Echo are veryinterchangeable, like we are.
We're so embedded that I don'tknow it's like it's like I have
a fire team with them.
It's weird, it's.
It's like they're we'reessentially the same team, but
we're not the same team, um, sowe we work with a lot of teams.

(01:13:09):
Um, we work with a lot of teamsthat are serious, serious teams
.
Um, we've also been beenprivileged enough to found and
start a lot of other teams thataren't our own right.
So we're willing to work withanybody.
We want to work with everybody,um, and in fact, anybody,
anybody.
Literally, if you ever want to,just, you know, run some shit

(01:13:30):
or do some training, or, youknow, shoot the breeze, I don't
care.
Reach out to us right, ahundred percent.
I don't have an email.
I don't want you emailing meand I don't really care.
Figure it out, find a way toget ahold of me, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
It's very so.
The way we get ahold of them iswe have a O light and it's the
25,000 lumen O light, and thenwe just cut a cardboard ammo and
we taped it to the front and weflash it in the air and then
this motherfucker shows up.
So that's how we get ahold ofMike.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
That's exactly what it is.
But you know, at the same time,like you know, my, my running
theme is consistent Don't be apussy.
Yeah, that's all I care about.
You know, show up at a game.
I don't care if it's your firstever game.
You bought your gun at Walmartthat afternoon and spray painted
it, and it's still wet.
Just have the guts to say it.
Yeah, you do that.
You're already ahead, right andwe'll.

(01:14:18):
We'll help you.
We'll help you in any way wecan.
We'll help anybody any way wecan.
We're here for the sport.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
And that's the point that I was kind of trying to
stumbling through, asking youthat retarded question.
But you guys are out to helpanybody, so on the field you
come up, there's a new team thatare on the side that you signed
up with.
You guys are tasked the same.
You guys have no issues takingthem under your wing, giving
them some sort of instructionand sending them in the right

(01:14:46):
direction.
Or do you try to avoid doingstuff like that on the field.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
So we're willing to help anybody who's willing to
accept help.
You know, if you guys arebumping around the woods there,
just come up to us, be like heyguys, look, we're a bunch of
pussies, help us out.
You got it, we'll help you out,right, I'll call JPMX.
Or look, these bitches needhelp over here, let's sort them
out, right, but if you're goingto be there going, well, excuse
me, I've been playing airsoftfor six months now.
My cracking shoots way betterthan anything you have.

(01:15:12):
Like, I don't care, I don't hearit, you don't get the time of
the day, you're not worth it,right, um, that's the problem
and I don't want to be that way.
Right, we both start off on thesame way.
It is what it is.
You know, you never know whoyou're going to meet on the
airsoft field.
We've all made amazing friendson the airsoft field, lifelong
friends on the airsoft field.

(01:15:33):
So you know, let's start thesame way, with all being honest
with each other, right, um, ifyou need help, ask for help,
yeah, the one thing I'llguarantee is you'll get it.
I will never turn you away.
We'll answer anything.
You want to try out gear?
You want to look through ourthermals?
You want to look through, we'reokay, no problem.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
As long as you're willing to receive the help.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
And not combat it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
Exactly, don't.
Don't be one of those.
Ah yeah, it's not bad, you know.
My psionics, though, is prettygood.
Your psionics is a fuckingpaperweight.
Throw that shit out.
I wouldn't use it to prop mydoor open, very true.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
That actually kind of goes back to what I said when,
when you were asking aboutjoining the team and it's not
they were not standoffish in theway that they were dicks.
It was that you had to bewilling to listen and willing to
learn.
And my kid said you have twoears and one mouth, so if you,
if you're having issues, voiceyour issue, but then don't try
and say oh, no, no, no, it's,let's do it this way.

(01:16:31):
If you're asking for help, youknow, listen to it and really
try and absorb it, uh, and andsee what that that can do for
you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:40):
For sure, max, you got anything to add to uh being
in the woods and and uh kindabeing a mentor for a law squad.

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
Moreover, everyone's got to remember, like this whole
attitude of like oh fuckeverybody else where the shit
and like we're too cool to talkto you and whatever, that's not
a good long-term strategy.
If you look at airsoft, youcan't play airsoft by yourself.
If you're going to woods onyour own, you're on the woods on
your own.
You're not playing airsoft.

(01:17:10):
So you have to be kind to thepeople around you.
You have to encourage otherpeople to come out to the vent,
be friendly, be welcoming and,yeah, just encourage the
community to grow because like,like like Mike was pointing out,
like when we started, airsoftwas only once a month, it was
invite only.
You had to be on a certainwebsite to get in, and now you

(01:17:33):
can play airsoft wherever youwant, any day of the week,
pretty much.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
So it didn't get there by accident.
I got there by us nurturing thecommunity and by helping you
grow and encouraging new playersand handing down stuff to
people who needed it and givingpeople rides and stuff like that
.
So just be careful, care forother people around you and help
help the community grow.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Definitely, definitely good advice.
You want to help the communitygrow, as long as that community
member wants to help.
Because if they're going to bethat guy that's just strong
headed, that's just going tohave whatever you tell them in
one ear out the other, thenthat's kind of going against
what we're trying to achieve asone solid community in this
community.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
I was going to be honest with you.
The number like it might happensometimes, but I don't think
you should lead this way to youLike if, if you're like hey,
buddy, I think your scope is thescope's a little loose, and
he's like oh yeah, that's fine,fuck off, cool story, bro.
Have a good time.
But the next two people that Icorrect that actually take my
help.
It's going to be worth it forme for sure, because those two

(01:18:40):
people are coming from a siegebackground.
Like I've spoken to likeliterally thousands of people at
siege, I can count the numberof times someone's been rooting
me on like one hand.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
And meanwhile I think , like a lot of teams have
actually sprouted just for me,encouraging people and helping
them zero their hop up andshowing them how to zero their
scopes and how to stand, how tohold their pistol.
Like small stuff like that goesa long way for people.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
For sure.
Yeah, that's a good example.
Like Max is a pillar in thecommunity for that, you know,
because he's working at siege.
He's interfaced with thousandsof players, right, you can
imagine if, if I'm pretty quickto discount these barbecues at
the games just because they'reso hilarious.
But you know what?
The one thing you know,reflecting back on it, I don't

(01:19:28):
see is that everybody walks bythem and goes look at those
fucking guys.
I don't think I recall peoplewalking up to them saying hey
guys, what, what?
Maybe we should pack this upand like let's get going.
Yeah, very true, yeah.
You know, maybe Max is showingme the light here a bit and
maybe I'll walk up to them andgive them the big old fuck you
to their face right and tellthem to get their shit together.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
Maybe that's what they need.
Maybe they need to be toldbecause they haven't been told,
that that is just not right atan event.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Yeah, you know it, it's on us, right, it is on our
backs, on our shoulders, aselders in the community, to get
this sport moving and keep itmoving in the right direction
right, and historically thesport's done really, really well
.
I find that there's ebbs andflows and everything, and right
now you know you made a goodpoint earlier that, with the

(01:20:17):
economy the way it is, now is areally good time to double down
on that and make sure that we'restaying tight, staying positive
, right, working together.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27):
For sure, and because we are getting super long,
let's do this final little chatabout our favorite game.
Let's talk about Brian's seriesDeadfall, because we didn't
really get to chat about thisyear's Deadfall.
You guys were right beside me.
How was that game for you guys?

Speaker 4 (01:20:49):
I had a fantastic time.
I was kind of shocked with ourturnout, but of course

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