December 16, 2024 • 56 mins
Award winning poet and writer Kim Fahner joins the show this week to share her creative journey and discuss the importance of forming a community of our peers. Forging nurturing and supportive connections with other creatives in a country as vast, and empty, as Canada can feel like a huge challenge - particularly for those in smaller or rural communities. We also discuss the copyright implications of AI for creators and why it's so important to support Canadian creatives and the businesses that support them more than ever.
Kim is the author of multiple poetry books as well as her debut novel, The Donoghue Girl, released earlier this year. She is also the first vice-chair of The Writer's Union of Canada, a teacher and an editor for Consilience, an online journal that explores the spaces where the sciences and arts meet.
This is a great episode for creatives who...
⭐️ are looking to forge new connections with their peers
⭐️ are considering mentoring or being mentored in the new year
⭐️ have thought about publishing poetry or are curious about the small press community in Canada
⭐️ are concerned about the copyright implications of AI and how it might impact our creativity
This episode is brought to you by our Premium Subscriber Community on Patreon and Buzzsprout
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- find Kim at kimfahner.com or on Instagram at @kimfahner or on X at @modernirish
- The Donoghue Girl
- Consilience Journal
- The Writer's Union of Canada
- Latitude 46 Publishing
- Turnstone Press
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
You can connect with the podcast on:
- Instagram at @andshelookedup
- YouTube
- Tik Tok at @AndSheLookedUp
For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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And now let's get on with theshow.
Welcome to the and she Looked Uppodcast.
Each week we sit down withinspiring Canadian women who
create for a living.
(01:24):
We talk about their creativejourneys and their best business
tips, as well as the creativeand business mindset issues all
creative entrepreneurs strugglewith.
I'm your host, melissaHartfield, and after leaving a
20-year career in corporateretail, I've been happily
self-employed for 12 years.
I'm a graphic designer, anillustrator and a
multi-six-figure-a-yearentrepreneur in the digital
(01:46):
content space.
This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives
who want to find a way to make aliving doing what they love.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the and she
Looked Up podcast.
(02:07):
As always, I'm your host,melissa, and this week I am
really excited to be welcomingauthor Kim Foner to the post
office.
I was going to say the postoffice to the podcast.
Welcome to the show, kim.
It's lovely to have you here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to our conversation
today.
For those of you who may not befamiliar with Kim, she lives,
(02:31):
writes and teaches in Sudbury,ontario, and her debut novel,
the Donahue Girl, which waspublished by Latitude 46, just
came out a couple of weeks ago.
Her next book is a poetry bookcalled the Pollination Field and
is being published by TurnstonePress, and that's going to be
out this coming spring.
(02:53):
And Kim is also the first vicechair of the Writers' Union of
Canada, so we're going to betalking about all of that today,
along with some other things.
But, kim, the first question Iask everyone who comes on the
show is did you feel like youwere creative as a kid growing
up?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, I totally did.
Actually, I was sort of alwayson the outskirts of popular kids
because I read a lot, so Iescaped into books and I think I
was writing stories, likecreative stories, and little
poems.
When I was in elementary schoolI didn't forecast it being like
something I would do for mylife, alongside my work, you
(03:38):
know, daily work but yeah, I wasalways reading and then playing
with words on the paper.
I couldn't paint for the lifeof me, though, like I couldn't
do visual art when I was in highschool or elementary school so,
but the words just sort of gaveme a safe place, a refuge from
the world.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So yeah, it's always interesting how many people
associate being creative withbeing a visual artist.
When there's so many ways wecan be creative as we're.
Well, I think everyone'screative and I think we all have
our own way of channeling thatcreativity.
But how, at what point did yourealize that writing is
(04:29):
something you could actually doas a career?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
When did you have that moment or epiphany?
Probably in my 20s, I guess.
I had a small chapbook of poemspublished by a local press
called Scrivener your ScrivenerPress, and then after that, I
started getting my next books.
That were full books of poetryand I started to realize, okay,
I can't make a living at this.
But it wasn't really ever aboutmaking money, it was about the
(04:55):
words just kept coming, theideas kept coming and I knew I
had to write them down.
So, um, it's been intertwinedwith my work as a teacher for 23
years at least, and before that, before I began teaching, even
in other jobs I had in my 20s, Ijust constantly wrote.
(05:15):
So you know it's hard for me toseparate writing from anything
else.
It's just parallel to myteaching career or any other
jobs I've had.
It's just part of who I am, andI guess that's why creativity
is cool too.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
What kind of teacher are you?
You mentioned before we startedtalking that you're a high
school teacher, but what do youteach?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I teach.
I've taught English for a long,long time, and I also do
special education.
Okay, so, that's reallyfascinating and rewarding to
working one-on-one with kids,you know.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And it's not often.
I work with a lot of writers,I've met a lot of writers, I've
had writers on the show, butit's not often I come across one
who is known for poetry or whogravitates to poetry.
And so what made you go thatroute?
Your first book, your firstnovel that just came out last
(06:13):
month, is not your first book,but it is your first novel.
You are much better known as apoet and, yeah, what is it about
poetry that makes it specialfor you?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's funny, you know.
I remember reading things likeTennyson and the Lady of Shalott
in high school and thinkingthey were cool.
And I really loved Shakespearein high school, which was really
poetry.
I had great teachers in highschool.
I took a writer's craft coursewith Mr Carter when I was in
grade 13, oac English, and hereally encouraged me and poetry
(06:49):
for some reason just seemed tocome to me almost.
I feel like it's almost a wayof being and breathing.
So even when I write novels orshort stories or plays or essays
, it's very poetic in terms ofthe prose I'm writing and I sort
of it's very strange in termsof the prose I'm writing and I
sort of it's very strangeactually when I think about it.
(07:10):
It's like I'll see somethingand want to write about it out
in the natural world.
It's the.
I have a link between seeingsomething visual and wanting to
write it too that's sointeresting at that.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
No, that is really interesting, that that's just
how your brain processes it,like that's yeah, yeah, um.
The other thing that made mevery curious when I was reading,
doing my research on you isit's not often that you come
across a poet, a canadian poet,um, who has published as many
(07:45):
books as you have.
You've written five full poetrycollections that have been
published.
You've also written twochapbooks, and maybe we should
just mention what a chapbook isfor the audience, because I
don't think it's a term a lot ofpeople are familiar with.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
A chapbook's really a smaller collection, so in
England I think they call thempamphlets instead of full books
of poems.
So they might be between theymight be 20, 25, 30 pages of
poetry, almost like a taster ofsomething that so it could be a
chapbook could include maybe asection in a larger book of
poetry.
So they.
(08:19):
There are more presses, likeIan Letourneau's press called
Emergency.
Flash Mob is out of Frederictonand he's publishing chapbooks
now and there are other onesacross the country as well.
So my first book was a chapbookand it sort of was well
received and then I found apublisher who wanted to publish
a full book.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So because that, I think, is the stumbling block,
that I hear from a lot of peoplewho love poetry, or love
writing poetry, but they'vealways felt that, for whatever
reason, they will not becomepublished as a poet.
Their path to being publishedis a novel.
And yet you have gone theopposite route.
You've written five poetrycollections before writing a
(09:03):
novel, five poetry collectionsbefore writing a novel, and how
were you able to make thathappen?
And if there's people out therelistening wondering how they
could possibly get published asa poet, what would you suggest
to them?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I would say I think you need to read a lot of poetry
.
I read it every day and even ifI don't write it every day, I
read poetry every day.
When I'm writing a certaingenre, I'll try to read that
genre.
So my head turns to that div ofgenre.
But for publishing, I just hadgreat mentors coming through my
20s who encouraged me to submitto journals across Canada and it
(09:41):
took a long time.
So I really didn't start to getmore and more pieces published
till I was in my 30s, like injournals, but I had already had
a couple of books published.
That it's kind of I went aboutit backwards in a way.
But I think you can getpublished.
I think it's about sending yourwork out to journals and not
(10:02):
just to contests.
I feel like people put theireggs in the basket of literary
contests and I think it's greatto do that, but not to just do
that.
And then someone an emergingwriter I was mentoring said to
me well, I don't like beingrejected, so I don't send out to
journals, but I think if youcan, actually it's about why
(10:24):
you're writing.
Are you writing just to getpublished or are you writing
just to you know?
Get the idea out on paper,hopefully share it.
Yes, of course you want itpublished, but if your sole goal
is to rush to publish, I don't,I don't know.
I feel like sometimes it doestake time, it's not impossible,
and so I think also findingpeople who can mentor you and
(10:47):
encourage you is reallyimportant, especially in poetry.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It's a really unique genre it is, yeah, and I think
there's always this feeling thatit's just not commercially
viable.
Yeah, yeah, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I guess you know I have the best poetic community
across Canada and across otherparts of the world from all I've
met, and they're the thecoolest people I know are poets,
um poets and visual artists andsingers, songwriters and actors
and that kind of, andplaywrights, I don't know.
I feel maybe if you're going tobe a poet, you kind of know
(11:27):
it's not about making a milliondollars, right?
So there are very few that willreach that kind of plateau in
that genre.
But I, oh, I'm idealistic thisway.
I feel like you should justcreate because you feel this
drive to create and then send itout and hopefully it does get
published.
I think it, you know.
(11:48):
But if you just tie it to ummonetary things, then I don't
know, I doubt that many peoplecan make a live.
I don't, I don't know anyonewho can.
I mean, rupee cower is a goodexample of someone, but she's
rare billy might be yeah youknow in the states someone mary
(12:10):
oliver, so that kind ofcommercialized success, I can't
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Possibly I think that's there, but I don't see it
happening very often and thisyear you published your first
full length novel big change ingenre.
It's called the Donahue Girland maybe just tell us, tell us
a little bit about the bookfirst of all, and what it's
(12:34):
about great-grandfather wasJames Cornelius Kelly and he was
the first recorded merchant inCreighton, which was a tiny
mining town outside of Sudbury.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
It's gone, now it's a company town and sometimes they
just disappear.
The company just scrapes themoff or moves houses out.
So I had heard stories aboutCreighton from my great-ats and
my grandmother and the storythat I heard was that my
maternal grandfather dated mygreat aunt Nora Kelly, dumped
(13:11):
her and married my grandmother,Alice Kelly, and I thought I had
never heard this in two of mygreat aunts when I was in my
late twenties.
They were closer to 80, thensaid this and I thought what,
what that can't be true.
Closer to 80.
Then said this and I thoughtwhat, what that can't be true.
And then no one could tell mewhether or not the story was
true.
Different people thought it wasnot true and I just thought
doesn't matter, it's aninteresting enough piece that I
(13:33):
could create this world in thisunique place in northern Ontario
, because I feel so often thatregionalized literature and
stories are forgotten.
Yes yes, that work.
I feel like I've always writtenfrom this area, I've traveled
(13:54):
around and I've lived in otherplaces, but this, this place, is
really beautiful and raw andalso just disturbing sometimes,
just because of the way miningworks, right.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What made you decide to tackle a?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
long-form novel.
It's so different from a poemor from poetry.
No, I've been writing shortstories for years.
So I worked with Timothy Finleyas a mentor through the Humber
School for Writers back in mylate 20s and he was very
encouraging of my short prosework.
And then in 2014-15, I took aplaywriting course with a fellow
named Matthew Hady up here atthe Sudbury Theatre Centre, and
(14:41):
one exercise was to write amonologue or a scene that could
be a one-act play, and I wrotesomething about this story that
was in my head and I said toMatthew I think it's bigger.
And he said I think it shouldbe bigger too.
And I said I can't manage goingfrom the city of a poem to the
(15:02):
country of a novel.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You know that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, I can't see how to build the architecture of
that structure and he just saidjust build it as you would a
play scene by scene, and so hisencouragement was really
important.
And then I worked with Mar umMarnie Woodrow, who's a you know
, a book coach, and and backthen she so she kind of worked
(15:27):
alongside me and I was learningcraft there.
And then I worked with LawrenceHill at Banff in 2016 on an
earlier draft of this piece.
So those are the you know, fourpeople for me as a prose writer
, whether short or long, whohave been really instrumental in
how I've managed to sort ofconceptualize and then write a
(15:50):
longer piece.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And now that so obviously the story's been with
you for a long time and you'vebeen working on this for quite
some time, and now that it's outthere into the world, do you
think there's another novel inyour system?
Did you enjoy it enough thatyou would go down that route?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I have I'm almost finished another novel that's a
modern contemporary novel.
So yeah, I'm hooked on it.
I think just because I love theidea that if I have an idea for
a story, something in my headtells me this is just a poem,
this might be a creativenonfiction essay, this might be
(16:28):
a short story.
Something now has it's almostlike a switch goes off and I can
tell where what genre should be, which story you know kind of
conceptualize it that way.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I don't know a lot of writers who could do that, so I
think that's really neat thatyou're able to see that in your
head and not only see it butexecute the um in each of those
genres.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that's yeah, well, there are lots of people like
I'm thinking of people I knowwho are multi genre writers,
like Gary Barwin writes poetry,essays, novels.
Tannis McDonald, uh, writespoetry and essays.
So I, some of the people thatI'm colleagues with as a writer,
I can see that that're able to.
(17:18):
Yeah, I don't know when thatstarted happening.
It feels fluid to me and maybethat's what you know.
We're thinking about thecreative process that's really
fluid and that I maybe can't boxit and that maybe initially I
thought I had to box it, becauseI remember saying to Larry Hill
at BAMF I said I a poet and hesaid, no, you're a writer.
(17:39):
And I thought that blew my mind, because then I thought what
does that mean?
Because you know, people willjust define me as a poet and
some people have for many, manyyears now, like 30 years, so
this is a big shift for them.
But I've been writing othergenres in between.
As this piece, this took 10years from start to finish, so
(18:02):
I'm a slow writer well, you'vegot a second one under your belt
now it sounds like.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So you know production no, that's
interesting.
I hadn't thought of it that way,the fluidity of it.
But as a visual artist, I'm, youknow, I'm an illustrator and
I'm a graphic designer and Iwork in different mediums as an
illustrator and I I neverthought of it like you said.
(18:29):
It's very fluid, um, but they'reboth visual arts, so I hadn't
really hadn't really thoughtabout it that way, so you just
made me think about it in awhole different, different way.
One of the things I wanted totalk to you about that I saw as
(18:49):
I was doing my research is youare an editor for Consilience,
which I had never heard of untilreading this, but it sounds so
cool.
It's an online journal thatexplores where the sciences and
the arts meet, and this issomething that I find so
interested, because we'veactually had a lot of scientists
on the show who are now artistsand creatives, a few with their
(19:10):
PhDs in the sciences, and Ithink people think they are two
completely separate things, andyet there's so much creativity
in the sciences, and so, yeah, Iwas wondering if you could tell
us a little bit more about that, or tell me a little bit more.
I'm just this is what I want toknow about.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, that's, that journal was begun by a fellow
named Sam Illingworth and he'sreally brilliant and he works on
the conjunction of science andpoetry.
I think, when you think aboutit, scientists do the same
things that poets do, which isto look very closely and to
examine things and then see themin terms of you could look at a
(19:55):
certain butterfly and see it interms of a whole other, the
implications inside a biggersystem, and I think that's what
poets do too.
They look at particulars butthen sort of point to universals
, right?
So I found that reallyinteresting.
And then I think I I'm reallydrawn to eco poetry, just given
(20:17):
the state of the world and thenatural world and how we've been
so destructive as humans overthe times we've been here, that,
um, I've been writing ecopoetry, but I didn't know what
it was, you know, and I writeekphrastic poetry as well, so
these kinds of poetry werealways there and sometimes they
dovetail.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
but um, I think, what are those?
No, no, I'm just for myself andfor the audience, like what is
kind of the definition of um ecopoetry?
And, sorry, what was the otherone that you mentioned?
Ekphrastic, ekphrastic, yeah,that I've never heard of.
So what, what, what are thoseexactly?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
so eco poetry is poetry that um speaks to the
natural world and so raisesawareness about environmentalism
, really.
So there's some fantasticwriters, you know, and just
thinking about the positioningof how, how we write about the
world as we move through it intimes that are really bleak,
(21:17):
when you look at climate changeand now it's not climate change
but climate crisis right, I'mthinking of Joanna Lilly's
beautiful book Endlings, whichis about all.
She's written a book ofwonderful poems about at risk
and extinct species over time.
And just the number of thesepoems where she researched these
(21:38):
little creatures animals toinsects, you know across the
board just to see that that'sshocking when you actually see
that sort of like roll call ofanimals and creatures.
And then Yvonne Blomer'swonderful work as an eco poet
has been really instrumental forme.
(22:00):
I think there are a lot of womeneco poets out there, yeah, and
a number of great Canadian ecopoets who are just really
mindful of how, how you can usethe art of poetry to raise
awareness.
And that's what Sam's doingwith consilience, you know.
I believe what the work he'sdoing is really important.
(22:20):
And it's interesting because,being an editor on that journal,
I get to see scientists whowrite poetry, and then I'm
trying to, because my head isnot that sciencey, but they are
very sciencey and I'm.
It's interesting to see howthey're making poetry from what
their specific field is.
They also have particularfields, just like poets might.
(22:44):
So, and then the otherdefinition is ekphrastic poetry,
and that's poetry that'sinspired by visual art actually.
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
Yeah, so I've written varioussuites of poetry on Frida Kahlo,
georgia O'Keeffe, mary Pratt,maud Liu.
That's so cool.
Yeah, I'm really interested inhow these women artists manage
(23:09):
the times when they lived, andsometimes their partners were
really not nice humans.
So, how did they manage tocreate these wonderful things?
And sometimes the men they werewith overshadowed them, but
they still sort of like.
Even with Mary Pratt she sortof like was eclipsed by
Christopher and then rose abovehim after and I just think
(23:31):
there's something reallyfeminist about it.
But I'm fascinated by womenartists and I write mostly about
women artists.
I did write a couple of piecesabout Alex Colville's work
because of the uh, just the, thephotographic sort of like
beauty of his work.
That sort of you know,christopher Pratt, alex Colville
work is just so stunning that'sreally cool.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm gonna have to find some of your stuff that
you've written on that, becausethat really speaks to me as an
artist.
So yeah, no it just I hadn'theard of the journal until
reading about you and I'm justlike this is really cool.
I have to know more about this.
So now you mentioned earlier inthe interview that you don't
(24:22):
make a full-time living frompoetry, and I think most of us
working creatives have multiplerevenue streams.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe things you do outside of
writing as well, the things youdo outside of writing as well.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I teach full time.
I'm a high school teacher soI've taught.
Since I've been teaching highschool English I did a year of
teaching history.
I've done some work in theguidance department, student
success and resource and specialeducation at a high school here
in town.
It was a girls' school calledMarymount Academy.
It's where I went to school andI sort of marinate the kids in
(25:05):
poetry if they're in my class,because some teachers, through
the levels of grades, avoidpoetry.
So when I was laureate here Iwas poet laureate in Sudbury I
made a point of trying to getinto classrooms in other places
around the region just because Ifelt like sometimes teachers
are afraid of teaching poetrybecause they were.
(25:28):
It's something that people arealienated by, when really it
should be something that'saccessible and that you should
feel invited into, not that it'sdifficult or elitist, that
there's a voice for everyone,and I love using creative
writing with kids because theyhave a lot to say.
They're really brilliantteenagers.
(25:48):
People don't listen to themenough, I don't think.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
No, I think you're right, I think you're absolutely
right.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, and not everyone can paint or draw, and
so I always try to dig intopeople creatively through
writing in my classes, just tosee what comes out, because it's
fascinating, and I also thinkit's helpful for them to work
through things in their ownlives.
If they can write or expressHowever they do that they can
(26:15):
skate, dance, you know, playfootball, it doesn't matter, as
long as they're expressingthemselves.
I feel they should have abuffet of choices to feel more
okay with who they are, becausemental health is a big issue for
teenagers, right?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And for adults.
Yeah, but I think when youlearn the tools as a teenager to
help you deal with it which youand I, we were talking before
recording we're very close inage and that is not something
that we were given as teenagers,but when you get those tools or
you have access to those toolsas a teenager, it helps you out
(26:53):
so much as an adult tounderstand that, yeah,
journaling or writing orpainting something really huge
on a canvas can really help youwork through so many things.
And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So many kids did crochet work through the
pandemic and knitting.
They would come back after thepandemic was starting to.
You know, because we were inquad masters and then we came
back part time and part virtual.
And then they came back andthey were like, miss, I have
this scarf, and so they had donethat and I just thought that's
the coolest.
Or they had learned, they'dfocused on cooking and I thought
(27:32):
so there's so many ways to becreative and if we can get our
kids doing that, I think you'reright, they'll be better set for
life, because life as an adultis hard, yeah it was hard as a
teenager.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I wouldn't go back to that for any money.
Yeah, absolutely no.
I think I love it when I see Ialways felt in school that if
you weren't an athlete, therewasn't very many places for you.
Um, especially as a kid who was, you know, quintessentially
(28:05):
creative.
Um, there was drama club andthat was about it, and um, and I
just I feel like if we put asmuch emphasis on creative arts
or, like you said, whatever, aswe do on sports, in high school.
That would be helpful to so manykids For sure.
(28:26):
One of the things that has beenreally apparent, not just
reading about you but also justtalking to you, is you take
community very seriously.
You are obviously very involvedin your own writing community,
but in the Canadian writingcommunity as a whole.
You are the first vice chairfor the Writers Union of Canada,
(28:50):
among other things.
Maybe tell us a little bitabout, first of all, what the
Writers Union of Canada does andwhat it is that you do there.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's been.
We just celebrated our 50thanniversary about a year ago.
So it's an organization thatwas established to sort of, you
know, unite writers but alsofight for the rights of writers,
because and now currently it'sa fight for copyright yes, law
um, just even in post-secondaryand and um education.
(29:26):
You know, copying books and itjust does not work for any of us
.
So that's a big thing.
A big part of our focus is thatis, to make sure that we fight
for copyright law reform andthat writers are properly
compensated, that you know thereare things like universal
income that might be of interest.
(29:46):
So we have so many programsthat are great for people.
We have webinars every monthand there's a mentorship micro
grant so we can have emergingwriters mentored by more veteran
ones.
You know, and creatingcommunity is what TWOC is about.
It's the Writers Union ofCanada.
We call it TWOC, yeah, so, andit's just, I came to it before
(30:11):
the pandemic and I wasvolunteering on one of the
committees and then someone said, oh, you should be Ontario rep.
So then I thought, oh, I shouldbe Ontario rep.
So then I thought, oh, I'll beOntario rep, and I sort of
created an open mic night duringthe pandemic online, and then I
did a newsletter just to createcommunity because we were so
far apart.
Then I for you, for we forgethow hard that was right it was
(30:33):
yeah, yeah, and yet it wasartists who kind of all came
together?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
and you know you had people reading bedtime stories
on youtube and doing all kindsof things, um, and so I think if
ever there was a point where weproved how important we are to
the world, it was during thatfirst part of the pandemic where
nobody knew what to do, whenthey were stuck at home and they
realized how much they reliedon Netflix and all these other
(31:00):
things where you know you.
You need creatives and creatorsto create all that art that you
can do.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
How would, how would people have been mentally
through that time if they didn'thave access to all that?
Like, the time and place ofthis pandemic was good in the
fact that you could access thearts online, right, yeah, but I
still, you know, I still thinkwe're taken for granted, and I
think of cuts to the artsnationally, provincially, across
(31:30):
this country.
Yeah, I was having to fight,even in municipalities, for
certain grants.
I just think we're always, asartists, having to sort of prove
the value of art.
You would think you're right,though, that that would have
been a turning point, but westill.
That's one part of 12.11 isthat we still fight for for
those things to be recognizedand properly compensated, you
(31:52):
know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, Do you worry about?
This wasn't one of thequestions I put at you
beforehand.
But but do you worry aboutspeaking of copyright, like
where I ai is going and you're?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I knew you were gonna say ai is it.
Just you can't.
Oh my gosh, so worried.
Yeah, it's worried.
It's a new part of what we'retalking about at twerk, because
it's a different kind ofcopyright, copyright law because
I it's just ridiculous to methat some kind of forest can
(32:28):
gather up books instantaneously,sort of learn from them and
then write something in thestyle of an author that's
similar.
I don't think it's.
I'm very mdi.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It's like locusts hitting a field, you know, and
just like consuming it all in inseconds, flat and just leaving
this barren landscape.
And and I just feel, from acopyright perspective, the world
is not keeping up and and is sohard to once the genie's out of
the bottle, you can't put itback in, right you?
(33:01):
So it's just going to becatch-up, constant catch-up, and
I, I mean, I'm not afraid of aias a tool.
I, I do use it from things, butI am, I don't, I, I don't agree
with this concept that it canjust take what we create and
amalgamate it and spit it backout in various forms.
(33:22):
That, without compensation forwhat we're doing.
That just doesn't sit well withme at all well, how do you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I mean, how do you regulate this thing?
It's like a pandora's boxthat's been opened.
It's like your genie in thebottle metaphor, right, I just I
just feel it's beyond.
It's very scary, I think.
And if you're creative, thequestion is well, what's
creativity and what makes ahuman a human, and what?
Where does that creative sparkcome from?
(33:53):
And that takes time.
All of us, as creatives, taketime to create whatever we're
creating, and the fact thatsomething can sort of like
gobble it up and spit it out insome other form, that's like our
form, and then for us not to becompensated.
I just think there's so manyethical issues here and I don't
think it's going to get simpler.
(34:14):
I think it's going to be alarger, harder fight, but I
think we have to keep speakingup against it.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I , I know I can keep creating.
I'm a creative, I'm a creator,that's what I do and I can keep
creating.
I'm not worried about that partof it and I know there will
always be people who will wantmy original work.
But yeah, it's this underlyingpiece of the fact that my work
can just be gobbled up gross.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It is gross very sort of like um, zombie, like almost
, you know, yeah, and I feellike there's a lack of ethics
and morals.
And then I know, you know it'sbig money, it's big business,
and then so many writers, somany artists of any ilk or genre
are living close to the povertyline.
(35:04):
Even in a gig economy, right, acontract economy, people with
like four or five different jobsand being a creative on the
side, they're still living closeto the poverty line.
There's not a lot of writerswho make enough money to work
full time and support themselves.
You know there might be a few,I'm sure there are, but I, you
(35:26):
know, most people I know, haveday jobs and then write on the
side.
And then you know, yeah, yeahit.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
uh.
It's something I think about.
I think we all think about it alot and uh, and it just feels
like it's something I thinkabout.
I think we all think about it alot and uh, and it just feels
like it's promoting mediocrity.
I don't you know yeah, that's agood way of putting it, it's
yeah, it's just the stuff thatyou know I I will often sit down
with chat gpt and I use it forthe podcast to help me put
(35:56):
together a podcast outline, youknow, or anything.
But anytime I I use it for thepodcast to help me put together
a podcast outline, you know, oranything.
But anytime I use it to writeproduct descriptions on my
website and it churns it out andit's like okay, but it needs to
be fixed.
It doesn't like it just soundsgeneric.
I need to make this sound cool.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
You know, like the human aspect is missing.
Yeah, I can tell, as an Englishteacher, somebody hands in an
essay.
That's chat, gpt, pretty muchpeople would argue with me but
it's kind of devoid of a voice.
It has all the stuff that itmight need at the basic level
but there's no sort ofindividual spark there.
I think that's where ourindividual creativity or spirit,
(36:39):
you know, whatever um is it.
I mean, look at the differentartists through history.
They're all so unique, we'reall so different but we're
coming from the same placecreatively but we're all kind of
unique in our whatever we doinside our genres.
Yeah, to think that you couldtry to it drives me a bit
bonkers, to be honest, because Iworry about it a great deal.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah, I honestly try not to think about
it too much, right?
It depresses me.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, and I think what you said is really
important, we keep creating.
So, regardless of what that'sdoing, and regardless, we keep
fighting against those thingsthat might, you know, be
detrimental to the creation ofart.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, yes, and this is where I think community
actually plays a really big roleis when you are able to
surround yourself with otherartists, either in your field or
in completely unrelatedcreative fields or even fields
that aren't creative but alsobuilding a community of people
(37:45):
who love what you do and want toread your books or buy your art
or whatever, and so this is oneof the things that we were
going to talk about for the lastlittle bit of the.
The interview is yeah, likeyou're working with the Writers
Union of Canada and like what isit for you personally that you
(38:05):
get out of this idea ofcommunity?
Why is it you're so drawn to it?
Because you obviously are.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, I've always been really involved in
community volunteer work since Iwas young.
I mean, I remember having to do40 hours to graduate high
school in Ontario, I'm prettysure, probably common for most
people and then my parents weregrand volunteers and so I just
saw them going out at night tomeetings, you know, and things
(38:34):
like that and they just theyalways sort of instilled in me
the value of giving back to thecommunity in which you live.
So I've been on volunteercommittees here in Sudbury my
whole life really, and then Iturned towards TWOC, just
focusing on that in a differentsort of community, in a larger
aspect.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But yeah, I've volunteered my whole life, so so
and being a writer, likewriting, can be a very solitary
pursuit for a lot of us.
Um, and did you feel like youneeded, like the like, a support
network almost I don't know ifthat's the right word for it but
, um, just to kind of have otherwriters around you that you
(39:17):
could talk, to bounce ideas off?
For?
Um, because I, I always get thefield the feeling, no matter
what area I'm working in,there's always you know, my last
business we used to put on aconference, a three-day
conference, and where peoplecould come and was for it was
for bloggers, food bloggers andthey would come and they would
get to.
You know, learn aboutphotography and.
(39:39):
SEO and all that stuff.
And the most common thing weheard at the end in the
conference evaluations was I'mreally just here for the people
or I'm just here to talk to allmy peers.
This is the only opportunity Iget to meet with my peers.
I wish we had more time tonetwork.
I wish we had more time to chatand I honestly said to my
business partner we could scrapthe workshops and we could just
(40:03):
put them all in a big room for acouple of days, and I think
they'd be really happy, becauseI feel like for so many of us,
we don't get that connection.
It's not like a job where yougo to an office every day and
you have people that you cantalk to and all that, and so,
yeah, do you get that feelingfrom a lot of the writers and
(40:24):
other creatives that you talk tothat that's something they
really need?
Speaker 2 (40:28):
I think that's a large part of the union is.
You know, some people will callit networking.
I don't feel like that's whatit is.
For me it's building community.
It's like an extended family,it's a support.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
That's right, yeah, and you mentioned mentorship
multiple times earlier.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, I believe in that a great deal.
I do it here locally withemerging writers, and I've
worked with people nationally.
I feel that I didn't initially,as a young emerging writer,
have a mentor.
I had some teachers who werebrilliant and some university
professors at Laurentian whowere brilliant and encouraging
(41:07):
me.
But, yeah, I think mentorshipis huge.
And I also just think, when youtalk about volunteerism, that
whole notion, you're going tohopefully find people with
similar values, right, yeah, andnot everybody volunteers, but
the people I choose to associatewith do so.
(41:31):
Not all of them are you know.
Know it doesn't mean justbecause you volunteer you're
this perfect person.
That's not what I'm trying tosay.
I'm trying to say I like thenotion that we think we can
leave the world a better placeafter we've gone, that we have a
legacy in how we give back toyounger generations.
And and for me, I think, as ateacher of young people, I like
(41:52):
chose a profession where I'mdoing that every day.
It's like planting seeds forthe future and that also, I
think, happens with my work.
And talk like just the notionthat you're encouraging younger
writers and that that's a legacy, that's a living legacy.
Yeah, I think I worry aboutvolunteerism though, because I
(42:13):
often hear you know well, it'snot paid work and I understand
that it's so hard, right withthis economy, to volunteer on
top of working, and that's it'sa choice you make to volunteer,
because sometimes the work I doas a volunteer for TWOC is a
large amount of time on top ofmy job and I don't ever resent
(42:38):
it, I love it with people whodon't want to mentor or anything
is like it's not paid, I don'thave the time, and yet I feel
like you get just as much backfrom it as you put into it, like
(42:59):
it's not always about.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I mean, yeah, money's great, I like money, but I also
like to feel, um, you know andthis takes the altruism out of
it, I guess but I like to feellike I helped somebody see
something they might not haveseen on their own.
You know, like if I could justkind of point them in the right
direction so that they can keepgrowing or whatever it is that
(43:21):
they're trying to do, and thatjust is immensely
self-satisfying.
That's teaching.
Yes, and I actually started outto be a teacher.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
There you go, because you're describing what we do
educators do every day, which isnot.
It's funny.
I always think people think wetell kids what they need to
learn, but I think it's aboutasking them questions to make
them think differently or to seeother pathways and
possibilities, and so, oh, I hadthis one way of looking at it,
but now we've had this bigconversation in class and it's
(43:55):
expanded to make me think aboutother possible viewpoints.
So then they go out thinkingand questioning things, right,
yeah, yeah yeah, now we're.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
We live in a country that's just geographically huge
and it's very, very rural inmost of it, and I think you know
it's not hard to find anin-person writer's meetup in
Toronto or Vancouver.
There's even a group here inthe little suburb that I'm in
that meets up, but when you getfurther out I feel like those
(44:33):
opportunities are fewer andfarther between.
So for people who are living inthose more rural areas where
they can't just hop in their carand go meet up with some folks
at the library, um, or wherever,or a coffee shop, what are some
ways that they can build acommunity around them of other
(44:54):
writers or other creatives?
Do you have any suggestions forthem?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
yeah, I'm just thinking about.
I think the pandemic reallytaught me a lot about that.
That you, you know we have zoomfatigue and everything else
that we talk about in the world,but it did sort of open up
doors for online courses forwriters.
So I've taken online coursesfor poets, um, through the
pandemic and afterwards, andthat sort of is cool because you
(45:20):
can spend this a Sundayafternoon with people from
across the country.
That would never have happenedbefore, no, oh um, and then you
make, you make friends, you findpeople who are like-minded and
you're kind of your souls kindof resonate, and so then you
connect with people, um, and Ithink just in towns I know, like
(45:42):
we have Sudbury Writers Guild,there are regional writers
guilds across the country.
There are places like TWOC orthe Canadian Authors Association
or the League of Canadian Poetsand the Playwrights Guild of
Canada.
These organizations work tosort of create community inside
those rural areas.
(46:03):
That's something I'm reallyinterested in working on when I
become chair of TWOC next yearis to think about how a lot of
writers tend to gravitatetowards bigger centers like
Toronto, vancouver, montreal,you know, and then smaller
places even like Halifax, stJohn's, sudbury, beyond that,
(46:24):
timmins, north Bay, the Sioux,in my neck of the woods in
Northern Ontario, yellowknife.
You know we can't forget thatpeople are up there writing, up
here writing, and that that youknow to pull them together.
So I know, you know we've donea lot of work at TWC with sort
of creating communities in thosesmaller areas and I hope we
(46:46):
continue to do that.
I think we have so many storiesacross Canada that need to be
written and published and Isometimes worry that not all
stories are heard.
That's why I love Latitude 46.
It's a Northern Ontario pressand so this story of mine you
know, about this family justbefore World War II, might not
(47:08):
have been heard anywhere elseexcept for a press that is
willing to speak up and give astage to northern writers.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
so there's, there's a gap and there's a hole in rural
literature and public and yetsome of our best stories are in
those places, like I just thinkmost of us who live in cities
now, our families are not cityfamilies.
My relatives were all farmersor immigrants who wound up on
(47:40):
farmland, who didn't necessarilywant to be farmers.
So I think there's a lot ofstories that need to be told.
And I just want to ask you onemore question, because you
mentioned the press press, thelatitude 64 press that you are
working with, like I think wethink that there's like penguin,
(48:00):
random house and harper collins, and then if you don't get
published with them, there'snobody else out there.
But how do you go about findingall these small little presses
out there?
Because there are a lot of themand they are out there.
But how do you go about findingall these small little presses
out there?
Cause there are a lot of themand they are out there.
But how do you find them?
How do you hear about them?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
You.
I'm hoping that people need toread Canadian books.
So, yes, go to the bigpublishers, for sure, and there
are some Canadian writerspublished by the big publishers.
But there's such great smallCanadian presses Like.
So my earlier books werepublished by people like
Penumbra, um, um Peddler they'reboth P words Black Moss out of
(48:39):
Windsor and then um Frontenacout of Calgary and now Turnstone
out of Winnipeg.
So um, there's ECW, there'sBook Hug.
There's so many presses I can'tname them all so we'll second
win.
There's Caitlin Press in BC.
There's, you know, loads ofpresses across the country.
(48:59):
They're out there on theinternet and when you pick up
small press work, you'resupporting Canadian presses and
authors and that's really key.
Also, just to support indiebookstores across Canada.
If you can, I think to go smallrather than large like the
default is, let's go to the bigfat, glorious bestseller by a
(49:22):
big press or go to a bigbookstore.
I would say no, you should lookfor the small gems in presses
across Canada, because there'sso many great little presses and
they're just as amazing asthese bigger ones.
So I'm not really, but I guessin the writing community we
might be more aware of that thanpeople yes, yeah, and I think
(49:42):
that's the thing is as readersand I know a lot of our
listeners are also readers, evenif they're not writers but it's
just not knowing that there'sother options out there.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
A lot of people are aware that they can self-publish
, and that's a viable option too, but um, yeah, there are other
people out there who are willingto read what you've written and
yes turn it into something thatothers dig around, dig around,
go.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
The best thing I could say is find your indie
bookstore and go in there andask whoever the bookseller is,
because indie booksellers, indiebookstore booksellers, are
brilliant readers and they knowthat you could pick one.
I'm sure you're thinking of onethat you know.
Even If you go in and you knowthe person who's always there,
who reads voraciously, who canpoint you to a story that's set
(50:31):
in Eastern Canada, they willtake you to a press that likely
is a smaller Canadian press, byan author you might not have
heard of before.
It doesn't mean that they'renot fantastic.
Yeah, hidden gems, right, yeah,well, yeah, there's so many
fantastic Canadian writers outthere.
It's a wonderful buffet.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
It is something for everyone.
Yeah, so before we wrap up here, why don't you tell us a little
bit about what's next for you?
You've mentioned you haveanother poetry collection coming
out in the spring.
You've just finished work on adraft of your next novel.
So what do you see happening inthe next year or two for you?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Well, I just.
My next book is a book of beepoetry, so it's looking at bees
in terms of they're beingthreatened by climate crisis and
climate change, and also it'sexamining mythopoetic ideas
around bees and also the bee assort of like a symbol of oh my
goodness, um sort of thetransformational time that you
go through as a menopausal,perimenopausal woman.
(51:40):
So there's a lot of feministstuff in there.
My name means honeybee in greek.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
That's what melissa means, and yes, in greek oh,
that's wild.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
that's wild, totally poetic, divination happening
here.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
So I've always thought, you know, I've always
I've been thinking about gettinga tattoo since I was like 16
and I've never been able to comeup with one that I think I
could could sit with for therest of my life.
But the one that kind of doescome into my head every now and
then is like well, you could doa honeybee.
That like makes sense.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
So I just got one from.
Well, I got one a couple ofyears ago, um, with some barn
swallows for some my parents andmy grandmother, and then the
words no laid to marry, whichwere Seamus Heaney's last words.
So be not afraid, that's coolyeah, yeah, you could call, if I
could do that after all theseyears of me being afraid of them
(52:34):
, you can totally do a honeybee,I think yeah, it's not the fear
of getting the tattoo, and Ihave a cousin who's a tattoo
artist who would do it, but it'sjust more like, well, I hate it
.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You know, 10 years from now will I be thinking like
, why did I do this?
But anyways, so I will have toread your book of B poetry,
excellent Thanks.
And your next novel do you havelike a an estimated date for
that, or is that still a littleways away?
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I'm just writing the last.
I'm writing the last part ofthe lot, the end of it.
So I feel that there's 50 pagesleft and then that's the first
draft.
So then I'm in the next likesix to seven months sending it
to a couple of writer friends toread for me, and then I'll
start sending it out, probablynext fall, next, I think, next
(53:23):
summer.
Maybe we'll see how it goes.
I always have timelines,otherwise I just won't move
forward.
And then but it's fairly closeto being, that draft is almost
done and I've done a lot morework on it.
I think now that I've been I'vegone through the 10 year novel
writing process with the Donahuegirl, I'm much more clean and
(53:44):
confident in my writing for thesecond one.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yeah, yeah, cut down the timeline a little bit.
Oh, that's awesome.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today, kim.
Where can people find you outon the wild internet world of
the wind, the wild, anyway?
Where can people find you onthe internet?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
They'll find me at my website, so it's just
wwwkimfahnercom.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Okay, and we will put links to that, of course, in
the show notes, and we will.
Also, I will try to put as manylinks to all of the authors
that you mentioned throughoutthe interview, because you
mentioned some really greatnames that I'm sure people will
want to check out, and we willalso make sure we put a link to
where they can find your book aswell, your newest novel.
(54:35):
So that was great.
Yes, thank you so much.
It was so much fun.
This was fun and I reallyenjoyed it and, yeah, I'm so
glad that we could have thisopportunity to chat.
So, for all of you listening,that is it for this week.
We will be back with anotherbrand new episode for season six
in two weeks, but in themeantime, we will be continuing
(54:58):
on with the prep for theholidays minisode series that
you can listen to every thursdaybetween now and the end of the
year.
So that is it for this week.
Thank you all so for listening,and we will talk to you all
soon.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the and she Looked Up
(55:19):
Creative Hour.
If you're looking for links orresources mentioned in this
episode, you can find detailedshow notes on our website at
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While you're there, be sure tosign up for our newsletter for
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(55:39):
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(01:03):
And now let's get on with theshow.
Welcome to the and she Looked Uppodcast.
Each week we sit down withinspiring Canadian women who
create for a living.
(01:24):
We talk about their creativejourneys and their best business
tips, as well as the creativeand business mindset issues all
creative entrepreneurs strugglewith.
I'm your host, melissaHartfield, and after leaving a
20-year career in corporateretail, I've been happily
self-employed for 12 years.
I'm a graphic designer, anillustrator and a
multi-six-figure-a-yearentrepreneur in the digital
(01:46):
content space.
This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives
who want to find a way to make aliving doing what they love.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the and she
Looked Up podcast.
(02:07):
As always, I'm your host,melissa, and this week I am
really excited to be welcomingauthor Kim Foner to the post
office.
I was going to say the postoffice to the podcast.
Welcome to the show, kim.
It's lovely to have you here.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm really lookingforward to our conversation
today.
For those of you who may not befamiliar with Kim, she lives,
(02:31):
writes and teaches in Sudbury,ontario, and her debut novel,
the Donahue Girl, which waspublished by Latitude 46, just
came out a couple of weeks ago.
Her next book is a poetry bookcalled the Pollination Field and
is being published by TurnstonePress, and that's going to be
out this coming spring.
(02:53):
And Kim is also the first vicechair of the Writers' Union of
Canada, so we're going to betalking about all of that today,
along with some other things.
But, kim, the first question Iask everyone who comes on the
show is did you feel like youwere creative as a kid growing
up?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, I totally did.
Actually, I was sort of alwayson the outskirts of popular kids
because I read a lot, so Iescaped into books and I think I
was writing stories, likecreative stories, and little
poems.
When I was in elementary schoolI didn't forecast it being like
something I would do for mylife, alongside my work, you
(03:38):
know, daily work but yeah, I wasalways reading and then playing
with words on the paper.
I couldn't paint for the lifeof me, though, like I couldn't
do visual art when I was in highschool or elementary school so,
but the words just sort of gaveme a safe place, a refuge from
the world.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So yeah, it's always interesting how many people
associate being creative withbeing a visual artist.
When there's so many ways wecan be creative as we're.
Well, I think everyone'screative and I think we all have
our own way of channeling thatcreativity.
But how, at what point did yourealize that writing is
(04:29):
something you could actually doas a career?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
When did you have that moment or epiphany?
Probably in my 20s, I guess.
I had a small chapbook of poemspublished by a local press
called Scrivener your ScrivenerPress, and then after that, I
started getting my next books.
That were full books of poetryand I started to realize, okay,
I can't make a living at this.
But it wasn't really ever aboutmaking money, it was about the
(04:55):
words just kept coming, theideas kept coming and I knew I
had to write them down.
So, um, it's been intertwinedwith my work as a teacher for 23
years at least, and before that, before I began teaching, even
in other jobs I had in my 20s, Ijust constantly wrote.
(05:15):
So you know it's hard for me toseparate writing from anything
else.
It's just parallel to myteaching career or any other
jobs I've had.
It's just part of who I am, andI guess that's why creativity
is cool too.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
What kind of teacher are you?
You mentioned before we startedtalking that you're a high
school teacher, but what do youteach?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I teach.
I've taught English for a long,long time, and I also do
special education.
Okay, so, that's reallyfascinating and rewarding to
working one-on-one with kids,you know.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And it's not often.
I work with a lot of writers,I've met a lot of writers, I've
had writers on the show, butit's not often I come across one
who is known for poetry or whogravitates to poetry.
And so what made you go thatroute?
Your first book, your firstnovel that just came out last
(06:13):
month, is not your first book,but it is your first novel.
You are much better known as apoet and, yeah, what is it about
poetry that makes it specialfor you?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
It's funny, you know.
I remember reading things likeTennyson and the Lady of Shalott
in high school and thinkingthey were cool.
And I really loved Shakespearein high school, which was really
poetry.
I had great teachers in highschool.
I took a writer's craft coursewith Mr Carter when I was in
grade 13, oac English, and hereally encouraged me and poetry
(06:49):
for some reason just seemed tocome to me almost.
I feel like it's almost a wayof being and breathing.
So even when I write novels orshort stories or plays or essays
, it's very poetic in terms ofthe prose I'm writing and I sort
of it's very strange in termsof the prose I'm writing and I
sort of it's very strangeactually when I think about it.
(07:10):
It's like I'll see somethingand want to write about it out
in the natural world.
It's the.
I have a link between seeingsomething visual and wanting to
write it too that's sointeresting at that.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
No, that is really interesting, that that's just
how your brain processes it,like that's yeah, yeah, um.
The other thing that made mevery curious when I was reading,
doing my research on you isit's not often that you come
across a poet, a canadian poet,um, who has published as many
(07:45):
books as you have.
You've written five full poetrycollections that have been
published.
You've also written twochapbooks, and maybe we should
just mention what a chapbook isfor the audience, because I
don't think it's a term a lot ofpeople are familiar with.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
A chapbook's really a smaller collection, so in
England I think they call thempamphlets instead of full books
of poems.
So they might be between theymight be 20, 25, 30 pages of
poetry, almost like a taster ofsomething that so it could be a
chapbook could include maybe asection in a larger book of
poetry.
So they.
(08:19):
There are more presses, likeIan Letourneau's press called
Emergency.
Flash Mob is out of Frederictonand he's publishing chapbooks
now and there are other onesacross the country as well.
So my first book was a chapbookand it sort of was well
received and then I found apublisher who wanted to publish
a full book.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So because that, I think, is the stumbling block,
that I hear from a lot of peoplewho love poetry, or love
writing poetry, but they'vealways felt that, for whatever
reason, they will not becomepublished as a poet.
Their path to being publishedis a novel.
And yet you have gone theopposite route.
You've written five poetrycollections before writing a
(09:03):
novel, five poetry collectionsbefore writing a novel, and how
were you able to make thathappen?
And if there's people out therelistening wondering how they
could possibly get published asa poet, what would you suggest
to them?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I would say I think you need to read a lot of poetry
.
I read it every day and even ifI don't write it every day, I
read poetry every day.
When I'm writing a certaingenre, I'll try to read that
genre.
So my head turns to that div ofgenre.
But for publishing, I just hadgreat mentors coming through my
20s who encouraged me to submitto journals across Canada and it
(09:41):
took a long time.
So I really didn't start to getmore and more pieces published
till I was in my 30s, like injournals, but I had already had
a couple of books published.
That it's kind of I went aboutit backwards in a way.
But I think you can getpublished.
I think it's about sending yourwork out to journals and not
(10:02):
just to contests.
I feel like people put theireggs in the basket of literary
contests and I think it's greatto do that, but not to just do
that.
And then someone an emergingwriter I was mentoring said to
me well, I don't like beingrejected, so I don't send out to
journals, but I think if youcan, actually it's about why
(10:24):
you're writing.
Are you writing just to getpublished or are you writing
just to you know?
Get the idea out on paper,hopefully share it.
Yes, of course you want itpublished, but if your sole goal
is to rush to publish, I don't,I don't know.
I feel like sometimes it doestake time, it's not impossible,
and so I think also findingpeople who can mentor you and
(10:47):
encourage you is reallyimportant, especially in poetry.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
It's a really unique genre it is, yeah, and I think
there's always this feeling thatit's just not commercially
viable.
Yeah, yeah, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I guess you know I have the best poetic community
across Canada and across otherparts of the world from all I've
met, and they're the thecoolest people I know are poets,
um poets and visual artists andsingers, songwriters and actors
and that kind of, andplaywrights, I don't know.
I feel maybe if you're going tobe a poet, you kind of know
(11:27):
it's not about making a milliondollars, right?
So there are very few that willreach that kind of plateau in
that genre.
But I, oh, I'm idealistic thisway.
I feel like you should justcreate because you feel this
drive to create and then send itout and hopefully it does get
published.
I think it, you know.
(11:48):
But if you just tie it to ummonetary things, then I don't
know, I doubt that many peoplecan make a live.
I don't, I don't know anyonewho can.
I mean, rupee cower is a goodexample of someone, but she's
rare billy might be yeah youknow in the states someone mary
(12:10):
oliver, so that kind ofcommercialized success, I can't
you know.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Possibly I think that's there, but I don't see it
happening very often and thisyear you published your first
full length novel big change ingenre.
It's called the Donahue Girland maybe just tell us, tell us
a little bit about the bookfirst of all, and what it's
(12:34):
about great-grandfather wasJames Cornelius Kelly and he was
the first recorded merchant inCreighton, which was a tiny
mining town outside of Sudbury.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
It's gone, now it's a company town and sometimes they
just disappear.
The company just scrapes themoff or moves houses out.
So I had heard stories aboutCreighton from my great-ats and
my grandmother and the storythat I heard was that my
maternal grandfather dated mygreat aunt Nora Kelly, dumped
(13:11):
her and married my grandmother,Alice Kelly, and I thought I had
never heard this in two of mygreat aunts when I was in my
late twenties.
They were closer to 80, thensaid this and I thought what,
what that can't be true.
Closer to 80.
Then said this and I thoughtwhat, what that can't be true.
And then no one could tell mewhether or not the story was
true.
Different people thought it wasnot true and I just thought
doesn't matter, it's aninteresting enough piece that I
(13:33):
could create this world in thisunique place in northern Ontario
, because I feel so often thatregionalized literature and
stories are forgotten.
Yes yes, that work.
I feel like I've always writtenfrom this area, I've traveled
(13:54):
around and I've lived in otherplaces, but this, this place, is
really beautiful and raw andalso just disturbing sometimes,
just because of the way miningworks, right.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
What made you decide to tackle a?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
long-form novel.
It's so different from a poemor from poetry.
No, I've been writing shortstories for years.
So I worked with Timothy Finleyas a mentor through the Humber
School for Writers back in mylate 20s and he was very
encouraging of my short prosework.
And then in 2014-15, I took aplaywriting course with a fellow
named Matthew Hady up here atthe Sudbury Theatre Centre, and
(14:41):
one exercise was to write amonologue or a scene that could
be a one-act play, and I wrotesomething about this story that
was in my head and I said toMatthew I think it's bigger.
And he said I think it shouldbe bigger too.
And I said I can't manage goingfrom the city of a poem to the
(15:02):
country of a novel.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
You know that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, I can't see how to build the architecture of
that structure and he just saidjust build it as you would a
play scene by scene, and so hisencouragement was really
important.
And then I worked with Mar umMarnie Woodrow, who's a you know
, a book coach, and and backthen she so she kind of worked
(15:27):
alongside me and I was learningcraft there.
And then I worked with LawrenceHill at Banff in 2016 on an
earlier draft of this piece.
So those are the you know, fourpeople for me as a prose writer
, whether short or long, whohave been really instrumental in
how I've managed to sort ofconceptualize and then write a
(15:50):
longer piece.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And now that so obviously the story's been with
you for a long time and you'vebeen working on this for quite
some time, and now that it's outthere into the world, do you
think there's another novel inyour system?
Did you enjoy it enough thatyou would go down that route?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I have I'm almost finished another novel that's a
modern contemporary novel.
So yeah, I'm hooked on it.
I think just because I love theidea that if I have an idea for
a story, something in my headtells me this is just a poem,
this might be a creativenonfiction essay, this might be
(16:28):
a short story.
Something now has it's almostlike a switch goes off and I can
tell where what genre should be, which story you know kind of
conceptualize it that way.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I don't know a lot of writers who could do that, so I
think that's really neat thatyou're able to see that in your
head and not only see it butexecute the um in each of those
genres.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that's yeah, well, there are lots of people like
I'm thinking of people I knowwho are multi genre writers,
like Gary Barwin writes poetry,essays, novels.
Tannis McDonald, uh, writespoetry and essays.
So I, some of the people thatI'm colleagues with as a writer,
I can see that that're able to.
(17:18):
Yeah, I don't know when thatstarted happening.
It feels fluid to me and maybethat's what you know.
We're thinking about thecreative process that's really
fluid and that I maybe can't boxit and that maybe initially I
thought I had to box it, becauseI remember saying to Larry Hill
at BAMF I said I a poet and hesaid, no, you're a writer.
(17:39):
And I thought that blew my mind, because then I thought what
does that mean?
Because you know, people willjust define me as a poet and
some people have for many, manyyears now, like 30 years, so
this is a big shift for them.
But I've been writing othergenres in between.
As this piece, this took 10years from start to finish, so
(18:02):
I'm a slow writer well, you'vegot a second one under your belt
now it sounds like.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
So you know production no, that's
interesting.
I hadn't thought of it that way,the fluidity of it.
But as a visual artist, I'm, youknow, I'm an illustrator and
I'm a graphic designer and Iwork in different mediums as an
illustrator and I I neverthought of it like you said.
(18:29):
It's very fluid, um, but they'reboth visual arts, so I hadn't
really hadn't really thoughtabout it that way, so you just
made me think about it in awhole different, different way.
One of the things I wanted totalk to you about that I saw as
(18:49):
I was doing my research is youare an editor for Consilience,
which I had never heard of untilreading this, but it sounds so
cool.
It's an online journal thatexplores where the sciences and
the arts meet, and this issomething that I find so
interested, because we'veactually had a lot of scientists
on the show who are now artistsand creatives, a few with their
(19:10):
PhDs in the sciences, and Ithink people think they are two
completely separate things, andyet there's so much creativity
in the sciences, and so, yeah, Iwas wondering if you could tell
us a little bit more about that, or tell me a little bit more.
I'm just this is what I want toknow about.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, that's, that journal was begun by a fellow
named Sam Illingworth and he'sreally brilliant and he works on
the conjunction of science andpoetry.
I think, when you think aboutit, scientists do the same
things that poets do, which isto look very closely and to
examine things and then see themin terms of you could look at a
(19:55):
certain butterfly and see it interms of a whole other, the
implications inside a biggersystem, and I think that's what
poets do too.
They look at particulars butthen sort of point to universals
, right?
So I found that reallyinteresting.
And then I think I I'm reallydrawn to eco poetry, just given
(20:17):
the state of the world and thenatural world and how we've been
so destructive as humans overthe times we've been here, that,
um, I've been writing ecopoetry, but I didn't know what
it was, you know, and I writeekphrastic poetry as well, so
these kinds of poetry werealways there and sometimes they
dovetail.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
but um, I think, what are those?
No, no, I'm just for myself andfor the audience, like what is
kind of the definition of um ecopoetry?
And, sorry, what was the otherone that you mentioned?
Ekphrastic, ekphrastic, yeah,that I've never heard of.
So what, what, what are thoseexactly?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
so eco poetry is poetry that um speaks to the
natural world and so raisesawareness about environmentalism
, really.
So there's some fantasticwriters, you know, and just
thinking about the positioningof how, how we write about the
world as we move through it intimes that are really bleak,
(21:17):
when you look at climate changeand now it's not climate change
but climate crisis right, I'mthinking of Joanna Lilly's
beautiful book Endlings, whichis about all.
She's written a book ofwonderful poems about at risk
and extinct species over time.
And just the number of thesepoems where she researched these
(21:38):
little creatures animals toinsects, you know across the
board just to see that that'sshocking when you actually see
that sort of like roll call ofanimals and creatures.
And then Yvonne Blomer'swonderful work as an eco poet
has been really instrumental forme.
(22:00):
I think there are a lot of womeneco poets out there, yeah, and
a number of great Canadian ecopoets who are just really
mindful of how, how you can usethe art of poetry to raise
awareness.
And that's what Sam's doingwith consilience, you know.
I believe what the work he'sdoing is really important.
(22:20):
And it's interesting because,being an editor on that journal,
I get to see scientists whowrite poetry, and then I'm
trying to, because my head isnot that sciencey, but they are
very sciencey and I'm.
It's interesting to see howthey're making poetry from what
their specific field is.
They also have particularfields, just like poets might.
(22:44):
So, and then the otherdefinition is ekphrastic poetry,
and that's poetry that'sinspired by visual art actually.
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
Yeah, so I've written varioussuites of poetry on Frida Kahlo,
georgia O'Keeffe, mary Pratt,maud Liu.
That's so cool.
Yeah, I'm really interested inhow these women artists manage
(23:09):
the times when they lived, andsometimes their partners were
really not nice humans.
So, how did they manage tocreate these wonderful things?
And sometimes the men they werewith overshadowed them, but
they still sort of like.
Even with Mary Pratt she sortof like was eclipsed by
Christopher and then rose abovehim after and I just think
(23:31):
there's something reallyfeminist about it.
But I'm fascinated by womenartists and I write mostly about
women artists.
I did write a couple of piecesabout Alex Colville's work
because of the uh, just the, thephotographic sort of like
beauty of his work.
That sort of you know,christopher Pratt, alex Colville
work is just so stunning that'sreally cool.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm gonna have to find some of your stuff that
you've written on that, becausethat really speaks to me as an
artist.
So yeah, no it just I hadn'theard of the journal until
reading about you and I'm justlike this is really cool.
I have to know more about this.
So now you mentioned earlier inthe interview that you don't
(24:22):
make a full-time living frompoetry, and I think most of us
working creatives have multiplerevenue streams.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe things you do outside of
writing as well, the things youdo outside of writing as well.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I teach full time.
I'm a high school teacher soI've taught.
Since I've been teaching highschool English I did a year of
teaching history.
I've done some work in theguidance department, student
success and resource and specialeducation at a high school here
in town.
It was a girls' school calledMarymount Academy.
It's where I went to school andI sort of marinate the kids in
(25:05):
poetry if they're in my class,because some teachers, through
the levels of grades, avoidpoetry.
So when I was laureate here Iwas poet laureate in Sudbury I
made a point of trying to getinto classrooms in other places
around the region just because Ifelt like sometimes teachers
are afraid of teaching poetrybecause they were.
(25:28):
It's something that people arealienated by, when really it
should be something that'saccessible and that you should
feel invited into, not that it'sdifficult or elitist, that
there's a voice for everyone,and I love using creative
writing with kids because theyhave a lot to say.
They're really brilliantteenagers.
(25:48):
People don't listen to themenough, I don't think.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
No, I think you're right, I think you're absolutely
right.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, and not everyone can paint or draw, and
so I always try to dig intopeople creatively through
writing in my classes, just tosee what comes out, because it's
fascinating, and I also thinkit's helpful for them to work
through things in their ownlives.
If they can write or expressHowever they do that they can
(26:15):
skate, dance, you know, playfootball, it doesn't matter, as
long as they're expressingthemselves.
I feel they should have abuffet of choices to feel more
okay with who they are, becausemental health is a big issue for
teenagers, right?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And for adults.
Yeah, but I think when youlearn the tools as a teenager to
help you deal with it which youand I, we were talking before
recording we're very close inage and that is not something
that we were given as teenagers,but when you get those tools or
you have access to those toolsas a teenager, it helps you out
(26:53):
so much as an adult tounderstand that, yeah,
journaling or writing orpainting something really huge
on a canvas can really help youwork through so many things.
And yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So many kids did crochet work through the
pandemic and knitting.
They would come back after thepandemic was starting to.
You know, because we were inquad masters and then we came
back part time and part virtual.
And then they came back andthey were like, miss, I have
this scarf, and so they had donethat and I just thought that's
the coolest.
Or they had learned, they'dfocused on cooking and I thought
(27:32):
so there's so many ways to becreative and if we can get our
kids doing that, I think you'reright, they'll be better set for
life, because life as an adultis hard, yeah it was hard as a
teenager.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I wouldn't go back to that for any money.
Yeah, absolutely no.
I think I love it when I see Ialways felt in school that if
you weren't an athlete, therewasn't very many places for you.
Um, especially as a kid who was, you know, quintessentially
(28:05):
creative.
Um, there was drama club andthat was about it, and um, and I
just I feel like if we put asmuch emphasis on creative arts
or, like you said, whatever, aswe do on sports, in high school.
That would be helpful to so manykids For sure.
(28:26):
One of the things that has beenreally apparent, not just
reading about you but also justtalking to you, is you take
community very seriously.
You are obviously very involvedin your own writing community,
but in the Canadian writingcommunity as a whole.
You are the first vice chairfor the Writers Union of Canada,
(28:50):
among other things.
Maybe tell us a little bitabout, first of all, what the
Writers Union of Canada does andwhat it is that you do there.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Well, it's been.
We just celebrated our 50thanniversary about a year ago.
So it's an organization thatwas established to sort of, you
know, unite writers but alsofight for the rights of writers,
because and now currently it'sa fight for copyright yes, law
um, just even in post-secondaryand and um education.
(29:26):
You know, copying books and itjust does not work for any of us
.
So that's a big thing.
A big part of our focus is thatis, to make sure that we fight
for copyright law reform andthat writers are properly
compensated, that you know thereare things like universal
income that might be of interest.
(29:46):
So we have so many programsthat are great for people.
We have webinars every monthand there's a mentorship micro
grant so we can have emergingwriters mentored by more veteran
ones.
You know, and creatingcommunity is what TWOC is about.
It's the Writers Union ofCanada.
We call it TWOC, yeah, so, andit's just, I came to it before
(30:11):
the pandemic and I wasvolunteering on one of the
committees and then someone said, oh, you should be Ontario rep.
So then I thought, oh, I shouldbe Ontario rep.
So then I thought, oh, I'll beOntario rep, and I sort of
created an open mic night duringthe pandemic online, and then I
did a newsletter just to createcommunity because we were so
far apart.
Then I for you, for we forgethow hard that was right it was
(30:33):
yeah, yeah, and yet it wasartists who kind of all came
together?
Speaker 1 (30:37):
and you know you had people reading bedtime stories
on youtube and doing all kindsof things, um, and so I think if
ever there was a point where weproved how important we are to
the world, it was during thatfirst part of the pandemic where
nobody knew what to do, whenthey were stuck at home and they
realized how much they reliedon Netflix and all these other
(31:00):
things where you know you.
You need creatives and creatorsto create all that art that you
can do.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
How would, how would people have been mentally
through that time if they didn'thave access to all that?
Like, the time and place ofthis pandemic was good in the
fact that you could access thearts online, right, yeah, but I
still, you know, I still thinkwe're taken for granted, and I
think of cuts to the artsnationally, provincially, across
(31:30):
this country.
Yeah, I was having to fight,even in municipalities, for
certain grants.
I just think we're always, asartists, having to sort of prove
the value of art.
You would think you're right,though, that that would have
been a turning point, but westill.
That's one part of 12.11 isthat we still fight for for
those things to be recognizedand properly compensated, you
(31:52):
know.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, Do you worry about?
This wasn't one of thequestions I put at you
beforehand.
But but do you worry aboutspeaking of copyright, like
where I ai is going and you're?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
I knew you were gonna say ai is it.
Just you can't.
Oh my gosh, so worried.
Yeah, it's worried.
It's a new part of what we'retalking about at twerk, because
it's a different kind ofcopyright, copyright law because
I it's just ridiculous to methat some kind of forest can
(32:28):
gather up books instantaneously,sort of learn from them and
then write something in thestyle of an author that's
similar.
I don't think it's.
I'm very mdi.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
It's like locusts hitting a field, you know, and
just like consuming it all in inseconds, flat and just leaving
this barren landscape.
And and I just feel, from acopyright perspective, the world
is not keeping up and and is sohard to once the genie's out of
the bottle, you can't put itback in, right you?
(33:01):
So it's just going to becatch-up, constant catch-up, and
I, I mean, I'm not afraid of aias a tool.
I, I do use it from things, butI am, I don't, I, I don't agree
with this concept that it canjust take what we create and
amalgamate it and spit it backout in various forms.
(33:22):
That, without compensation forwhat we're doing.
That just doesn't sit well withme at all well, how do you?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
I mean, how do you regulate this thing?
It's like a pandora's boxthat's been opened.
It's like your genie in thebottle metaphor, right, I just I
just feel it's beyond.
It's very scary, I think.
And if you're creative, thequestion is well, what's
creativity and what makes ahuman a human, and what?
Where does that creative sparkcome from?
(33:53):
And that takes time.
All of us, as creatives, taketime to create whatever we're
creating, and the fact thatsomething can sort of like
gobble it up and spit it out insome other form, that's like our
form, and then for us not to becompensated.
I just think there's so manyethical issues here and I don't
think it's going to get simpler.
(34:14):
I think it's going to be alarger, harder fight, but I
think we have to keep speakingup against it.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I , I know I can keep creating.
I'm a creative, I'm a creator,that's what I do and I can keep
creating.
I'm not worried about that partof it and I know there will
always be people who will wantmy original work.
But yeah, it's this underlyingpiece of the fact that my work
can just be gobbled up gross.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
It is gross very sort of like um, zombie, like almost
, you know, yeah, and I feellike there's a lack of ethics
and morals.
And then I know, you know it'sbig money, it's big business,
and then so many writers, somany artists of any ilk or genre
are living close to the povertyline.
(35:04):
Even in a gig economy, right, acontract economy, people with
like four or five different jobsand being a creative on the
side, they're still living closeto the poverty line.
There's not a lot of writerswho make enough money to work
full time and support themselves.
You know there might be a few,I'm sure there are, but I, you
(35:26):
know, most people I know, haveday jobs and then write on the
side.
And then you know, yeah, yeahit.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
uh.
It's something I think about.
I think we all think about it alot and uh, and it just feels
like it's something I thinkabout.
I think we all think about it alot and uh, and it just feels
like it's promoting mediocrity.
I don't you know yeah, that's agood way of putting it, it's
yeah, it's just the stuff thatyou know I I will often sit down
with chat gpt and I use it forthe podcast to help me put
(35:56):
together a podcast outline, youknow, or anything.
But anytime I I use it for thepodcast to help me put together
a podcast outline, you know, oranything.
But anytime I use it to writeproduct descriptions on my
website and it churns it out andit's like okay, but it needs to
be fixed.
It doesn't like it just soundsgeneric.
I need to make this sound cool.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
You know, like the human aspect is missing.
Yeah, I can tell, as an Englishteacher, somebody hands in an
essay.
That's chat, gpt, pretty muchpeople would argue with me but
it's kind of devoid of a voice.
It has all the stuff that itmight need at the basic level
but there's no sort ofindividual spark there.
I think that's where ourindividual creativity or spirit,
(36:39):
you know, whatever um is it.
I mean, look at the differentartists through history.
They're all so unique, we'reall so different but we're
coming from the same placecreatively but we're all kind of
unique in our whatever we doinside our genres.
Yeah, to think that you couldtry to it drives me a bit
bonkers, to be honest, because Iworry about it a great deal.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, yeah, I honestly try not to think about
it too much, right?
It depresses me.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Well, and I think what you said is really
important, we keep creating.
So, regardless of what that'sdoing, and regardless, we keep
fighting against those thingsthat might, you know, be
detrimental to the creation ofart.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, yes, and this is where I think community
actually plays a really big roleis when you are able to
surround yourself with otherartists, either in your field or
in completely unrelatedcreative fields or even fields
that aren't creative but alsobuilding a community of people
(37:45):
who love what you do and want toread your books or buy your art
or whatever, and so this is oneof the things that we were
going to talk about for the lastlittle bit of the.
The interview is yeah, likeyou're working with the Writers
Union of Canada and like what isit for you personally that you
(38:05):
get out of this idea ofcommunity?
Why is it you're so drawn to it?
Because you obviously are.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
Yeah, I've always been really involved in
community volunteer work since Iwas young.
I mean, I remember having to do40 hours to graduate high
school in Ontario, I'm prettysure, probably common for most
people and then my parents weregrand volunteers and so I just
saw them going out at night tomeetings, you know, and things
(38:34):
like that and they just theyalways sort of instilled in me
the value of giving back to thecommunity in which you live.
So I've been on volunteercommittees here in Sudbury my
whole life really, and then Iturned towards TWOC, just
focusing on that in a differentsort of community, in a larger
aspect.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But yeah, I've volunteered my whole life, so so
and being a writer, likewriting, can be a very solitary
pursuit for a lot of us.
Um, and did you feel like youneeded, like the like, a support
network almost I don't know ifthat's the right word for it but
, um, just to kind of have otherwriters around you that you
(39:17):
could talk, to bounce ideas off?
For?
Um, because I, I always get thefield the feeling, no matter
what area I'm working in,there's always you know, my last
business we used to put on aconference, a three-day
conference, and where peoplecould come and was for it was
for bloggers, food bloggers andthey would come and they would
get to.
You know, learn aboutphotography and.
(39:39):
SEO and all that stuff.
And the most common thing weheard at the end in the
conference evaluations was I'mreally just here for the people
or I'm just here to talk to allmy peers.
This is the only opportunity Iget to meet with my peers.
I wish we had more time tonetwork.
I wish we had more time to chatand I honestly said to my
business partner we could scrapthe workshops and we could just
(40:03):
put them all in a big room for acouple of days, and I think
they'd be really happy, becauseI feel like for so many of us,
we don't get that connection.
It's not like a job where yougo to an office every day and
you have people that you cantalk to and all that, and so,
yeah, do you get that feelingfrom a lot of the writers and
(40:24):
other creatives that you talk tothat that's something they
really need?
Speaker 2 (40:28):
I think that's a large part of the union is.
You know, some people will callit networking.
I don't feel like that's whatit is.
For me it's building community.
It's like an extended family,it's a support.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
That's right, yeah, and you mentioned mentorship
multiple times earlier.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, I believe in that a great deal.
I do it here locally withemerging writers, and I've
worked with people nationally.
I feel that I didn't initially,as a young emerging writer,
have a mentor.
I had some teachers who werebrilliant and some university
professors at Laurentian whowere brilliant and encouraging
(41:07):
me.
But, yeah, I think mentorshipis huge.
And I also just think, when youtalk about volunteerism, that
whole notion, you're going tohopefully find people with
similar values, right, yeah, andnot everybody volunteers, but
the people I choose to associatewith do so.
(41:31):
Not all of them are you know.
Know it doesn't mean justbecause you volunteer you're
this perfect person.
That's not what I'm trying tosay.
I'm trying to say I like thenotion that we think we can
leave the world a better placeafter we've gone, that we have a
legacy in how we give back toyounger generations.
And and for me, I think, as ateacher of young people, I like
(41:52):
chose a profession where I'mdoing that every day.
It's like planting seeds forthe future and that also, I
think, happens with my work.
And talk like just the notionthat you're encouraging younger
writers and that that's a legacy, that's a living legacy.
Yeah, I think I worry aboutvolunteerism though, because I
(42:13):
often hear you know well, it'snot paid work and I understand
that it's so hard, right withthis economy, to volunteer on
top of working, and that's it'sa choice you make to volunteer,
because sometimes the work I doas a volunteer for TWOC is a
large amount of time on top ofmy job and I don't ever resent
(42:38):
it, I love it with people whodon't want to mentor or anything
is like it's not paid, I don'thave the time, and yet I feel
like you get just as much backfrom it as you put into it, like
(42:59):
it's not always about.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
I mean, yeah, money's great, I like money, but I also
like to feel, um, you know andthis takes the altruism out of
it, I guess but I like to feellike I helped somebody see
something they might not haveseen on their own.
You know, like if I could justkind of point them in the right
direction so that they can keepgrowing or whatever it is that
(43:21):
they're trying to do, and thatjust is immensely
self-satisfying.
That's teaching.
Yes, and I actually started outto be a teacher.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
There you go, because you're describing what we do
educators do every day, which isnot.
It's funny.
I always think people think wetell kids what they need to
learn, but I think it's aboutasking them questions to make
them think differently or to seeother pathways and
possibilities, and so, oh, I hadthis one way of looking at it,
but now we've had this bigconversation in class and it's
(43:55):
expanded to make me think aboutother possible viewpoints.
So then they go out thinkingand questioning things, right,
yeah, yeah yeah, now we're.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
We live in a country that's just geographically huge
and it's very, very rural inmost of it, and I think you know
it's not hard to find anin-person writer's meetup in
Toronto or Vancouver.
There's even a group here inthe little suburb that I'm in
that meets up, but when you getfurther out I feel like those
(44:33):
opportunities are fewer andfarther between.
So for people who are living inthose more rural areas where
they can't just hop in their carand go meet up with some folks
at the library, um, or wherever,or a coffee shop, what are some
ways that they can build acommunity around them of other
(44:54):
writers or other creatives?
Do you have any suggestions forthem?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
yeah, I'm just thinking about.
I think the pandemic reallytaught me a lot about that.
That you, you know we have zoomfatigue and everything else
that we talk about in the world,but it did sort of open up
doors for online courses forwriters.
So I've taken online coursesfor poets, um, through the
pandemic and afterwards, andthat sort of is cool because you
(45:20):
can spend this a Sundayafternoon with people from
across the country.
That would never have happenedbefore, no, oh um, and then you
make, you make friends, you findpeople who are like-minded and
you're kind of your souls kindof resonate, and so then you
connect with people, um, and Ithink just in towns I know, like
(45:42):
we have Sudbury Writers Guild,there are regional writers
guilds across the country.
There are places like TWOC orthe Canadian Authors Association
or the League of Canadian Poetsand the Playwrights Guild of
Canada.
These organizations work tosort of create community inside
those rural areas.
(46:03):
That's something I'm reallyinterested in working on when I
become chair of TWOC next yearis to think about how a lot of
writers tend to gravitatetowards bigger centers like
Toronto, vancouver, montreal,you know, and then smaller
places even like Halifax, stJohn's, sudbury, beyond that,
(46:24):
timmins, north Bay, the Sioux,in my neck of the woods in
Northern Ontario, yellowknife.
You know we can't forget thatpeople are up there writing, up
here writing, and that that youknow to pull them together.
So I know, you know we've donea lot of work at TWC with sort
of creating communities in thosesmaller areas and I hope we
(46:46):
continue to do that.
I think we have so many storiesacross Canada that need to be
written and published and Isometimes worry that not all
stories are heard.
That's why I love Latitude 46.
It's a Northern Ontario pressand so this story of mine you
know, about this family justbefore World War II, might not
(47:08):
have been heard anywhere elseexcept for a press that is
willing to speak up and give astage to northern writers.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
so there's, there's a gap and there's a hole in rural
literature and public and yetsome of our best stories are in
those places, like I just thinkmost of us who live in cities
now, our families are not cityfamilies.
My relatives were all farmersor immigrants who wound up on
(47:40):
farmland, who didn't necessarilywant to be farmers.
So I think there's a lot ofstories that need to be told.
And I just want to ask you onemore question, because you
mentioned the press press, thelatitude 64 press that you are
working with, like I think wethink that there's like penguin,
(48:00):
random house and harper collins, and then if you don't get
published with them, there'snobody else out there.
But how do you go about findingall these small little presses
out there?
Because there are a lot of themand they are out there.
But how do you go about findingall these small little presses
out there?
Cause there are a lot of themand they are out there.
But how do you find them?
How do you hear about them?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
You.
I'm hoping that people need toread Canadian books.
So, yes, go to the bigpublishers, for sure, and there
are some Canadian writerspublished by the big publishers.
But there's such great smallCanadian presses Like.
So my earlier books werepublished by people like
Penumbra, um, um Peddler they'reboth P words Black Moss out of
(48:39):
Windsor and then um Frontenacout of Calgary and now Turnstone
out of Winnipeg.
So um, there's ECW, there'sBook Hug.
There's so many presses I can'tname them all so we'll second
win.
There's Caitlin Press in BC.
There's, you know, loads ofpresses across the country.
(48:59):
They're out there on theinternet and when you pick up
small press work, you'resupporting Canadian presses and
authors and that's really key.
Also, just to support indiebookstores across Canada.
If you can, I think to go smallrather than large like the
default is, let's go to the bigfat, glorious bestseller by a
(49:22):
big press or go to a bigbookstore.
I would say no, you should lookfor the small gems in presses
across Canada, because there'sso many great little presses and
they're just as amazing asthese bigger ones.
So I'm not really, but I guessin the writing community we
might be more aware of that thanpeople yes, yeah, and I think
(49:42):
that's the thing is as readersand I know a lot of our
listeners are also readers, evenif they're not writers but it's
just not knowing that there'sother options out there.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
A lot of people are aware that they can self-publish
, and that's a viable option too, but um, yeah, there are other
people out there who are willingto read what you've written and
yes turn it into something thatothers dig around, dig around,
go.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
The best thing I could say is find your indie
bookstore and go in there andask whoever the bookseller is,
because indie booksellers, indiebookstore booksellers, are
brilliant readers and they knowthat you could pick one.
I'm sure you're thinking of onethat you know.
Even If you go in and you knowthe person who's always there,
who reads voraciously, who canpoint you to a story that's set
(50:31):
in Eastern Canada, they willtake you to a press that likely
is a smaller Canadian press, byan author you might not have
heard of before.
It doesn't mean that they'renot fantastic.
Yeah, hidden gems, right, yeah,well, yeah, there's so many
fantastic Canadian writers outthere.
It's a wonderful buffet.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
It is something for everyone.
Yeah, so before we wrap up here, why don't you tell us a little
bit about what's next for you?
You've mentioned you haveanother poetry collection coming
out in the spring.
You've just finished work on adraft of your next novel.
So what do you see happening inthe next year or two for you?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Well, I just.
My next book is a book of beepoetry, so it's looking at bees
in terms of they're beingthreatened by climate crisis and
climate change, and also it'sexamining mythopoetic ideas
around bees and also the bee assort of like a symbol of oh my
goodness, um sort of thetransformational time that you
go through as a menopausal,perimenopausal woman.
(51:40):
So there's a lot of feministstuff in there.
My name means honeybee in greek.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
That's what melissa means, and yes, in greek oh,
that's wild.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
that's wild, totally poetic, divination happening
here.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
So I've always thought, you know, I've always
I've been thinking about gettinga tattoo since I was like 16
and I've never been able to comeup with one that I think I
could could sit with for therest of my life.
But the one that kind of doescome into my head every now and
then is like well, you could doa honeybee.
That like makes sense.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
So I just got one from.
Well, I got one a couple ofyears ago, um, with some barn
swallows for some my parents andmy grandmother, and then the
words no laid to marry, whichwere Seamus Heaney's last words.
So be not afraid, that's coolyeah, yeah, you could call, if I
could do that after all theseyears of me being afraid of them
(52:34):
, you can totally do a honeybee,I think yeah, it's not the fear
of getting the tattoo, and Ihave a cousin who's a tattoo
artist who would do it, but it'sjust more like, well, I hate it
.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
You know, 10 years from now will I be thinking like
, why did I do this?
But anyways, so I will have toread your book of B poetry,
excellent Thanks.
And your next novel do you havelike a an estimated date for
that, or is that still a littleways away?
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I'm just writing the last.
I'm writing the last part ofthe lot, the end of it.
So I feel that there's 50 pagesleft and then that's the first
draft.
So then I'm in the next likesix to seven months sending it
to a couple of writer friends toread for me, and then I'll
start sending it out, probablynext fall, next, I think, next
(53:23):
summer.
Maybe we'll see how it goes.
I always have timelines,otherwise I just won't move
forward.
And then but it's fairly closeto being, that draft is almost
done and I've done a lot morework on it.
I think now that I've been I'vegone through the 10 year novel
writing process with the Donahuegirl, I'm much more clean and
(53:44):
confident in my writing for thesecond one.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yeah, yeah, cut down the timeline a little bit.
Oh, that's awesome.
Thank you so much for beinghere with us today, kim.
Where can people find you outon the wild internet world of
the wind, the wild, anyway?
Where can people find you onthe internet?
Speaker 2 (54:06):
They'll find me at my website, so it's just
wwwkimfahnercom.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Okay, and we will put links to that, of course, in
the show notes, and we will.
Also, I will try to put as manylinks to all of the authors
that you mentioned throughoutthe interview, because you
mentioned some really greatnames that I'm sure people will
want to check out, and we willalso make sure we put a link to
where they can find your book aswell, your newest novel.
(54:35):
So that was great.
Yes, thank you so much.
It was so much fun.
This was fun and I reallyenjoyed it and, yeah, I'm so
glad that we could have thisopportunity to chat.
So, for all of you listening,that is it for this week.
We will be back with anotherbrand new episode for season six
in two weeks, but in themeantime, we will be continuing
(54:58):
on with the prep for theholidays minisode series that
you can listen to every thursdaybetween now and the end of the
year.
So that is it for this week.
Thank you all so for listening,and we will talk to you all
soon.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the and she Looked Up
(55:19):
Creative Hour.
If you're looking for links orresources mentioned in this
episode, you can find detailedshow notes on our website at
andshelookedupcom.
While you're there, be sure tosign up for our newsletter for
more business tips, profiles ofinspiring Canadian creative
women and so much more.
If you enjoyed this episode,please be sure to subscribe to
(55:39):
the show via your podcast app ofchoice so you never miss an
episode.
We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave
us a review through iTunes orApple Podcasts.
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Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next week.
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