January 27, 2025 • 66 mins
Winner of the 2024 Canadian Book Club Awards for fiction, Susan Wadds, author of "What the Living Do", shares her inspiring journey from aspiring poet to published novelist. But we also discuss the power of community and connection in the creative process. Susan fosters safe communities for other creatives through her workshops and retreats while also creating additional revenue streams for herself and she shares with us just how she does that!
This is a great episode for creatives who...
⭐️ want to learn more about the value of creating safe spaces for other creatives in their niche
⭐️ want some insights on community-building among creatives
⭐️ are curious about the Amherst Writers and Artists method
⭐️ are looking for practical advice for aspiring writers to pursue their passion
⭐️ are curious about Susan and her novel "What the Living Do"
This episode is brought to you by our Premium Subscriber Community on Patreon and Buzzsprout
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- find Susan at writeyourwayin.ca, or on Instagram @deepamwadds, Facebook, YouTube, or Substack
- What the Living Do on Indigo
- Amherst Writers and Artists
- Canadian Book Club Awards
You can find Melissa at finelimedesigns.com, finelimeillustrations.com or on Instagram @finelimedesigns.
You can connect with the podcast on:
- Instagram at @andshelookedup
- YouTube
- Tik Tok at @AndSheLookedUp
For a list of all available episodes, please visit:
And She Looked Up Creative Hour Podcast
Each week The And She Looked Up Podcast sits down with inspiring Canadian women who create for a living. We talk about their creative journeys and their best business tips, as well as the creative and business mindset issues all creative entrepreneurs struggle with. This podcast is for Canadian artists, makers and creators who want to find a way to make a living doing what they love.
Your host, Melissa Hartfiel (@finelimedesigns), left a 20 year career in corporate retail and has been happily self-employed as a working creative since 2010. She's a graphic designer, writer and illustrator as well as the co-founder of a multi-six figure a year business in the digital content space. She resides just outside of Vancouver, BC.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:03):
And now let's get on with theshow.
Welcome to the and she Looked Uppodcast.
Each week we sit down withinspiring Canadian women who
create for a living.
(01:24):
We talk about their creativejourneys and their best business
tips, as well as the creativeand business mindset issues all
creative entrepreneurs strugglewith.
I'm your host, melissaHartfield, and, after leaving a
20-year career in corporateretail, I've been happily
self-employed for 12 years.
I'm a graphic designer, anillustrator and a
multi-six-figure-a-yearentrepreneur in the digital
(01:46):
content space.
This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives
who want to find a way to make aliving doing what they love.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the and she
Looked Up podcast.
As always, I am your host,melissa, and this week I am very
(02:11):
excited to be welcoming authorSusan Wads to the podcast.
Welcome to the show, susan.
It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm so excited to be here.
Yeah, I think we're going tohave a great conversation today
here.
Yeah, I think we're going tohave a great conversation today.
For those of you who may not befamiliar with Susan, she is an
author and she is an AmherstWriters and Artists Writing
Workshop Facilitator, which weare going to be talking about
quite a bit this afternoon.
She is also a mother and atherapeutic body worker and she
(02:40):
is a finalist for the CanadianBook Club Awards this year with
her debut novel, what the LivingDo, and we're going to be
talking about that as well inthis episode.
So we have got a lot of juicythings to be discussing today.
And Susan, the first thing thatI start every episode off with
is asking each of our guestswere you or did you feel
(03:03):
creative as a kid growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think I was creative.
I had great aspirations to be apoet and novelist.
Of course I you know I suckedat crafts.
I'm not a visual artist at all,but I've always loved words and
I've always loved putting themtogether, however awkwardly that
(03:28):
began in everyone but as awriter is writing something that
you have done since you were alittle kid.
(03:52):
What brought you to writing, orwhat is it about words that you
love?
Yeah, reading, of course,started it all.
Started that ball rolling.
I had this notion.
I think reading was what did it.
I just thought I want to dothat, I want to make those books
.
I read Herman Hesse and Narzisand Goldman and wept and I
thought, oh, if I could dosomething that makes people cry,
(04:14):
that would be just great.
And then when I read LeonardCohen's Beautiful Losers, then
that opened up a whole otherrealm of possibility, because,
it's crazy, he did all kinds ofvery odd things in that book and
that kind of gave me thefreedom as I can do.
(04:37):
I could do anything, doanything.
And so you know'm not so smartas a child, but when I was in
grade 11, I thought that Iwanted to quit school to write.
I mean, you know, anyway, myparents indulged me and we went
to the principal and theprincipal asked me when do you
(05:00):
like to write?
I was writing mostly poems, butalso stories at the time, and I
I just was not into school atall and felt that I just needed
to be by myself.
So I said, well, I like towrite in the morning.
And so what they did was veryclever.
They said, okay, well, youwrite in the morning and come to
classes in the afternoon.
And I thought, oh, oh, allright.
(05:22):
So that was me starting mygreat career of writing at
whatever 16.
And then I went to at 17, Imoved to the Kootenays and 17
through 21, I went back andforth from Ontario to BC and
(05:43):
living in various places in theSlokan Valley and finally I was
able to procure a cabin up inthe mountains where I could
write my poems, and but thefolly, of course, is that I was
so young I really didn't haveanything to write about yet, but
I wrote a lot.
Nobody gets to see that stuff,so that was sort of the
(06:06):
beginning.
Oh, and the other thing that Idid was, again, my parents were
very indulgent the year I turned17,.
So I was 16,.
They let me go from London,ontario, to Quebec City and
spend the summer there writingmy great novel, which, of course
, has never seen the light ofday, all written by hand.
I didn't have a typewriter atthe time, so, yeah, it's kind of
(06:30):
in my blood.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Where did you wind up , going in Quebec City and
having a place to write?
That's so interesting to me?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, it was kind of the olden days because I got a
pension in old Quebec.
That's so interesting to me.
Well, it was kind of the oldendays Because I got a pension in
old Quebec, just not too farfrom the chateau, just down the
road, and I loved it because tome it was my Garrett Right.
I was no Virginia Woolf, youknow, looking down and feeling
very provincial.
(07:01):
So yeah, and I think it waslike $7 a night or something
like that.
Those were the olden days, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Was there a reason you chose Quebec City?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yes, yes, there was Because the year before I had
been in a student exchange whereI went to live with a French
family and they thought I wasfar too, I don't know, risque or
something for their daughter.
So she never came back toOntario with me.
But I fell in love with Quebeccity so I pressed upon my
parents.
I was supposed to be an au pairfor a business associate of my
(07:38):
father's, but then they decidedthey were going to their chalet
for the summer and didn't needme.
I'm like I need to go to Quebeccity, so they let me go.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh, wow, that's awesome.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And I mean the Kootenays.
I'm here in BC.
The Kootenays is one of myfavorite places in the world and
it has such a tremendouscreative community up there.
It always has, it's got atradition of that and still is
is to this day, so that musthave been um quite an experience
(08:08):
as well.
It's it can be remote, but it'salso got quite a tight-knit
community at the same time, soit certainly did in those days,
even though I was very isolatedin my little cabin.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
There was a tremendous the the um
valhallaalla community centerwas being built at the time.
Great parties around that,dances and brain damage.
I don't know if you know theband brain.
You must have heard of them.
They were very, they werewonderful.
And yeah, so the ValhallelujahRangers.
Like there were all theseamazing creatives there were
(08:42):
skit people and dancers andsingers, and then there was what
was that called Multifusion, Ithink it was called in Nelson,
which was this huge sort of itwas a mix of healing
practitioners and I learnedsquare dancing and poetry
(09:02):
readings and that sort of thing.
So yeah, it was a great timeand I think it's still very
vibrant, especially aroundNelson and my friend lives in
Kaslo.
There's a real and I went.
One of the things I did was formy launch.
I went to Nelson to do a launchthere at the bookstore, because
(09:26):
the character in what theLiving Do comes from Nelson, so
that was fun to go back.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I know the exact bookstore you're talking about.
One of my old friends lived inNelson for years, and so it's
one of the prettiest littleplaces in the country.
It really is a lovely, lovelylittle town and still very
vibrant, uh, creative, community.
Yeah, there's a lot offestivals and things there
throughout the summer.
So, yeah, that's really coolthat you were able to do that.
(09:53):
Um, I think there's so many ofus who would love to just have a
cabin in the woods.
Um, it sounds very romantic,right, but it I'm sure there was
moments where it was veryisolating as well.
So, yeah, what brought youalong the path to your debut
novel?
Because you've been writing fora long time.
You've written poetry, shortfiction, a whole realm of things
(10:15):
, and now you have a novel.
And so what was it that madeyou feel the need to write
something bigger and longer, andwhat brought you to this
particular novel, which iscalled what the Living Do, for
those of you who may have missedthat in the intro.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, it's an intro that took me in in a different
way.
What made me think I wanted towrite a novel?
I think I.
Oh, oh, yes, okay, I know Ihave an answer.
Can I answer that?
Oh, oh, yes, okay, I know.
(11:07):
Yeah, because the thing was it'sas often will do with some of
my novels as they start out tobe short stories and then they
kind of blow up on me.
So this one in particular, Ihad written, I had the genesis
for the story and I looselybased on my own experience, but
it needed to be fiction.
So I started to write it in afictional way.
Uh, and I basically wrote thewhole story in about 10 pages
and, uh, gave it to a writerfriend and she read it and said,
oh my God, it's like you'reyelling.
Everything is happening all atonce, it's too much, it's like
in your face.
So I said, oh my God, it's likeyou're yelling, everything is
happening all at once, it's toomuch, it's like in your face.
So I said, okay, well, I guesswe'll have to just stretch it
(11:29):
out and make more things happenand slow it down a bit.
And, yeah, and I took twoReynolds, a novel approach.
It was a year long course towrite the first draft of your
novel in the AWA, the AmherstWriters and Artists Method of
Facilitation.
And so what happens with that,for me and for quite a few other
(11:53):
writers, is we get a prompt.
It might be a visual prompt, orit might be a tactile prompt,
or it might be a poem, and we'reinvited to take it in any
direction that we like.
So I took each prompt into mystory, so it would take me in
slant, it would take me insideways in an unexpected way.
For instance, there's a firethat claims the life of both her
(12:19):
father the main character'sfather and baby sister, and one
of the prompts was a fire and II realized that I needed to have
her have a history.
That was, that was way moredramatic than mine.
So, um, I, that's what I I'msorry I had to kill them, but
that's what I did.
(12:40):
And it just went on and onuntil, you know, I had the book
finished.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
so you mentioned and I and I read a little bit in
another interview with you thatthis is partly inspired by your
own life, but that you needed tofictionalize it.
And so what like?
What is that?
What is that process?
Like taking something that ispartly yours but then turning it
into the story of somebody whoyou haven't met yet when you
(13:09):
start the writing process, likeyou're kind of meeting them as
you write them?
I guess, yes, what was thatlike?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's a great way of looking at it.
I love that.
I love that.
I love the way you put that wehave to create a persona.
So one of the other elementsbeside my own life with cancer
I'm fine, by the way was Ineeded to find a character that
(13:39):
wasn't me, wasn't?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
me.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So their road crews.
I saw someone said once, andit's actually in the book
someone said why are all thewomen who work, you know,
holding the stop slow signs?
Why are they all hot blondes?
And I thought, yeah, wait aminute.
So what if you know that hotblonde?
You're not particularly hot,she's an average looking woman.
(14:01):
But what if she wasn't holdinga stop sign?
What if she was down?
And what would she be like ifshe was working alongside those
men?
What kind of a person would shebe?
Well, she'd be kind of tough.
She'd be kind of tough.
She'd have to, you know, dealwith those guys and their
misogynistic outbursts and so on.
So, yeah, that's's so.
(14:22):
Then Brett was created and shewas definitely.
Well, some people say no, Ihear you in there, but I didn't
think she was me.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I think it's impossible to write a character
without some part of your voicecreeping into it in some way,
even if they're completelydifferent from me.
Yeah, yeah, the book is afinalist in the fiction category
for the 2024 Canadian Book ClubAwards, which is
congratulations.
How does that make you feel,especially knowing that this is
(14:57):
a Reader's Choice Award?
So this is the public.
This book has obviouslyresonated with a lot of people.
And how does that make you feel, knowing that?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Kind of shocked.
Yeah Well, the funny thing wasin June, when I was in Nelson
doing a reading, a gal came upto me and said I just want you
to know I've read your book.
I'm a verified reader for theCanadian Club Awards.
And right now your book isstanding at number one, which
(15:27):
was great because I think therewere 12 people in the audience,
so it was a real boost for me,yeah.
So that was really exciting andI thought, well, that's great,
let's see.
And then, when it came up thatI was the finalist, like, oh my
God, and I think overall, what,what?
Surprised, because this bookisn't a happy book.
(15:48):
It's not a happy book, no, ithas some pretty deep themes
running through it.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean you mentioned yeah, you mentioned some of them
and, and just for the audience,if you're not familiar with it,
it it talks about gender roles,survivor, guilt, sexual
grooming, like there's.
There's a lot going on in this,in this book, so it's not a
happy suicidal ideation.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
It's so.
I mean it has it.
By the way, just so everybodyknows it has a satisfying end.
You, you won't hate her in theend.
Um, but what surprised me ishow many people have told me
that not only the book resonatedwith them, but they identified
with her.
You know they might have beenreally mad at her and wanted to
slap her across the face forbeing so resistant, but in the
(16:33):
end they understood.
And so many people have said oh, I saw parts of myself in her.
And that surprised me.
Yeah, but the biggest surprisewas men who like the book.
oh interesting and most of Imean, I have four blurbs from
really fine you know, author men, author friends, um, but some,
(16:57):
so most of the men who've readit started off being my friends.
They bought it because theyknow me and saying things like
this isn't the book I would havepicked up for myself.
But one fellow, one fellowwriter in Israel, said I bought
a whole bunch of copies and gavethem to all my men friends
because they need to read it andanother man said.
(17:18):
An old friend said I learned alot about women.
I'm like what I set out to do,that I just wanted to tell my
story.
So those are the surprises.
So when I got the book clubaward I thought, oh, that's just
, that's divine.
Yeah, not just my friends.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, no, no, of course.
Right, you know it obviouslyresonated with a lot of people
and that has to be veryrewarding, I would think so.
Yes, now you mentioned that oneof the things that got you
going through this process ofwriting the book was the Amherst
Writers and Workshop group, andyou are also now a certified
(17:57):
workshop facilitator throughthem.
So I was not familiar with thisgroup when I first started
researching for this podcast.
Familiar with this group when Ifirst started researching for
this podcast.
So maybe first of all, tell usa little bit about what the
group is and what the program islike and the method behind it,
and then maybe a little bit ofhow it helped you as a writer.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Sure, I think somewhere in the 70s a woman
named Pat Schneider in Amherst,massachusetts, developed this
work to offer it to marginalized, underrepresented, silenced
(18:38):
community Because she came fromthe academic stream and she
found that that was not a placewhere she could let loose and
really express her creativity.
But what she recognized was thateveryone is born with creative
genius and the teaching of craftcan be done.
These are the precepts of themethod and teaching of craft can
be done without damage to awriter's authentic voice,
(19:03):
original voice or theirself-esteem.
It's such an organic process.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
And and when we so now it's a huge organization.
We have upwards of 600, 700affiliates, and then we have a
whole other arm which are writermembers that have all their own
benefits, and there's a coupleof hundred of those.
(19:31):
Um, so it's, it's a, it's aprocess where because when
people read their freshlygenerated work, when they get
(19:53):
feedback, it's really we onlyfocus on what's strong and
what's working.
No criticism, no questionsabout it, no pinning the author
to a wall.
We don't.
Even even if it is a memoirthat is, or seems to be, memoir,
(20:13):
we never refer to the writer oryou.
We always refer to thecharacter, the speaker, just to
give that little bit of a buffer.
And what that does is it createsa tremendously safe space for
people to write what they needto write, because everybody has
a story to tell, and their storymight be in a poem, it might be
an essay, it might be a pieceof fiction, and that is always
wide open.
(20:33):
For you know, even if you cometo a themed workshop, that might
be I don't know it might be apoetry workshop You're actually
not even required to writepoetry, you can write whatever
you want.
So that just makes it safe, itmakes it interesting and writing
with other writers and hearing,and the other thing that it
(20:57):
does is it really helps youdevelop your listening.
Because if you're listening forwhat's strong, what's memorable
, what you know, the dialogue,the structure, anything that's
strong, it's immediately goingto help you figure out what
works in writing.
Yeah, it will organically startto develop your craft.
(21:20):
And it's so gratifying to hearbecause often people will, you
know, oh, I don't want to read.
Well, you know, okay, well,I'll read, but this isn't any
good, you know, just read, justfind out.
And then there's this magicprocess that happens when,
already, when you're reading,because you don't, I mean, we
just wrote, we wrote for 15minutes, we don't really know
(21:40):
what we've written, so we readit and even as we're reading it,
it's starting to change becausewe're also kind of hearing what
other people are hearing.
And then we get the feedbackand oh, oh, did I do that?
Oh, it's just so uplifting andit makes you want to keep
writing.
And that's what happened to me.
(22:00):
I hadn't written for a numberof years.
I went off to India and did abunch of stuff, went to a
commune, Then I raised a familyand kind of got away from
anything fulsome like any bigprojects.
And then, around 2007, I waslike but I'd lost my confidence.
I wanted to write.
I wasn't quite sure what Iwanted to write, but I knew I
(22:26):
was hungry for it and so I waspointed by a lovely woman, Anna
McKay Smith.
I'd hired her to be my, my, mylife coach, my creativity coach,
and after a while she said youknow, I think you need AWA, I
think you need Sue Reynolds.
And she sent me off to aworkshop and I left.
(22:47):
I left the workshop crying,actually, just like, oh my God,
I can do this, I can do this.
And yeah, the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, I, you mentioned confidence there and I
think I don't think it mattersif you're a writer or a painter
or like I think all creativeshave that.
What's the word I'm looking for?
But sharing our work,especially in early stages,
where you're still figuring itout, is so scary for a lot of us
(23:21):
, you know, and it's justfinding that confidence to be
able to put it out there, evenwhen you know it's not ready
necessarily to be consumed bythe, by other people.
But it's frightening and we allknow, we all know after we've
done this for a while, that thestuff that comes out initially
is is the messy stuff, right,Like you got to get that stuff
(23:44):
out before you can continue onrefining it and and polishing it
and turning it into like evenjust developing it into what
it's meant to be at the end ofthe process.
So it is scary to do that andto do it in front of a group of
other people.
I think, yeah, it's notsomething any of us are super
(24:07):
comfortable with, I think.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah it's so rewarding to watch that over
time.
I'm thinking this happens afair bit.
But one woman in particular,when she started writing with me
, she said oh, you know, kind ofprivately, she said everybody,
everybody's so good.
And I, you know, I don't thinkI'm really giving very good
feedback, or you know, I don'treally think, oh my God.
Now her writing like this is ayear and a half later.
(24:33):
It's stunning.
Writing like this is a year anda half later.
It's stunning.
And and, and that's that's thereward.
To see that, to hear that kindof oh, and, and she's writing
all kinds of stuff it's shortflash stuff, memoir stuff, and
and she's just hit her stride,yeah.
So that's that's the, that'sthe sweet, that's the sweet,
(24:54):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I love this idea of just focusing on the strengths
too, because often we don't evenwe're not even sure what our
strengths are and, like you said, she's sitting there going.
It's not good enough kind ofthing.
But to get that feedback onwhat it is that you do so well
and that always drives us to domore of it, because we got that
(25:16):
great positive affirmation thatwe are good at what we're doing,
so I love that.
I think that's such a great wayto go about it.
What was it that made youdecide that you wanted to become
a facilitator Like?
It obviously had a big impacton you because you've gone
through that process.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
now to to be able to do this yourself yeah, I mean I
wanted to share it, I wanted tospread the love yeah, and.
I was doing.
I started out by doing oneevening a week at first, and
(25:56):
then I would add one full day amonth and that was great and I
loved that.
And then COVID hit and I woulddo the occasional retreat a week
or long weekend or whatever.
And then COVID hit and Zoomhappened and we were all locked
(26:19):
in and that just made it blow up.
I was now I'm doing five, six aweek and just loving it.
So what made me want to do it?
Yeah, that's the simple answer.
I wanted to share it and Inever I'm not somebody who's
ever made a business planEverything in my life just
(26:40):
organically happens and I justsay yes, I just yes, we're going
to do this.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think that's true for a lot of creatives who
create for a living.
I don't think very many of usever do a business plan and I
think we all tend to get drawnby like.
We like interesting projects,right.
That's what it's hard to say nowhen an interesting project
lands in your lap.
So yeah.
(27:08):
So now you spend a lot of yourtime hosting and writing
workshops.
You do online, as you mentioned, and you do in person.
Um, yeah, what is it about thisthat you find so rewarding?
Because I imagine it has to bepretty rewarding oh it's, it's,
it's thrilling.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
It's thrilling the voices that I get to meet.
You know you.
Earlier you said, oh, it'smessy.
Half the time it doesn't soundmessy at all.
Maybe when it's written down itmight look messy, but just
hearing what people wrote in,like I say 10, 15, 20 minutes,
(27:47):
and often people will say, oh,my God, that's finished, that's
ready to go.
So that is just thrilling.
And in any one workshop I mighthave a poet writing really deep
, sad stuff and another personwriting humor.
But the humor always has a, youknow, a darker edge to it An
(28:09):
underside, yeah.
It's so rich.
Yeah, absolutely, somebodymight be writing into a fantasy
novel.
You know, it's just all thesedifferent voices.
One person said, I don't know,this is kind of R-rated.
And we're like, yeah, bring it,it's a safe space, everybody
(28:29):
knows it's confidentiality.
We're just doing it here, it'sfor our ears only, that's it.
And yeah, so the thing itselfis rewarding.
I am living my best life.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Oh, that's fantastic, I think.
The messy thing is, I think,for us the creator, it's messy
in our head and we don't realizehow it sounds to other people.
And I think that's one of thegreat things about getting your
work in front of other people.
Is you kind of?
But you said somethinginteresting, because I don't
know how many times this hashappened to me.
Where you like, I'm in amastermind group.
(29:07):
The group of us have beentogether for years and so often
I've caught myself.
We use a Facebook group most ofthe time to just leave our
questions for each other, andit's a small group and I'll go
into the group with a question,I'll start writing it out and as
I'm writing it out and talkingit through my brain, by the time
I finished writing the question, I've kind of answered it in my
(29:30):
own head.
Like that act of saying it outloud or writing it out to share
with other people it, I don'tknow it.
There is something verypowerful about that, and so I
would think, doing these kindsof retreats and workshops, I
would imagine a lot of peoplefeel that way, Like they start
to talk about it and then it'slike it crystallizes in your
(29:51):
brain, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, that will happen, and especially with the
feedback.
I often what will happen is thefeedback points out something
that one doesn't even realizethey've done.
Yeah like they might have used ametaphor.
They didn't realize it was ametaphor.
Or I'm trying to think of anexample.
Of course I can't think of oneright off the, but that will
(30:14):
often happen.
Oh yeah, I did that.
Or there'll be an internalrhyme, or they'll be.
You know, I don't know.
It's that that's.
That's a super wonderfulbenefit of reading something
aloud.
Uh yeah, and there's always agem.
There's always something thatreally sparkles in in everybody.
I haven't ever heard anybodyread something they just wrote
(30:37):
that didn't have something, thatwas juicy.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I like that, like juicy things.
Do you find that doing this,what you're doing, the
facilitation and running theworkshops do you find that makes
you a better writer?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, because, because I'm hearing fabulous
work, yeah, but the the thing isthat one of the rules of being
a facilitator is that we have towrite along with our
participants.
Okay, we have to take the samerisks and we have to read at
(31:12):
least once in every workshop andhear what people say.
So, uh, what makes me a betterwriter is that I'm writing more
than I would if I was left to myown devices that's super
interesting, because we alwaysyeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We always think of like workshops and retreats and
things like that.
The facilitator is kind ofsitting over here and everybody
else is sitting here and talkingand you're just directing
traffic, but you actually haveto take part, like that makes it
really immersive and you've gotto walk the walk as well, right
(31:48):
?
So, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, so often I willshow up and I think oh God, I
don't.
I mean, I've written everythingI want to write and then, and
then guess what Stuff comes,Isn't that yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, it's brilliant.
It's a brilliant method.
Well, let's just talk with,like, an online workshop or an
in-person workshop.
What can they expect at this?
You've kind of mentioned a fewthings, but what is the whole?
What's it like for them whenthey walk into that room?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
for the first time.
If it's in person, what theywill find is what we call an on
chairs, which is a quote or apoem which is sitting on each
chair that is to be sat upon,and that has a couple of
functions.
In an in-person one One itgives people.
They know that that chairhasn't been taken because
(32:46):
there's a poem on it, right?
So?
And they have something to do,right If they're feeling awkward
and they also have and it'll besomething that might spark
something for them that justsimply delight them.
So what I do in an online oneis, even though I can't put it
on their chair, I send it withalong with the zoom link.
(33:08):
I send a little, so it has aslightly different function,
just sort of a littleamuse-gulle, as they say, little
taster.
So that's on chairs and then youknow, it just depends on
whether, if so, somebody new isin.
(33:28):
Then we will go around and dointroductions, maybe a little
bit about their own writing orwhat they hope to do.
When everybody knows oneanother, we generally just jump
in.
We might do a little meditation, a little grounding meditation
to begin, and then I always do Ido.
This is just the way I run myworkshops.
We are free to run them prettymuch any way we like, as long as
(33:52):
we adhere to the principles andthe precepts.
So, what I like to do is give afive minute warm up prompt.
So when it's online, I'll put aword and a picture up and say
just you can ignore it or use itfive minutes.
And then we read around withoutany commentary, so we just get
(34:13):
the voices in the room and thenI'll offer mostly right now, of
course, I'm doing online so Iwill put a poem.
I like pictures and words, sosometimes it'll just be a
picture, but often it will be apoem or a quote and a picture.
I'll read the poem or I'll getsomebody in the room to read it
(34:36):
and I've got a couple ofwonderful readers so I'll just
hand it over to them and then.
So then I offer somesuggestions of what they might
do.
You know this character, youmight have this character
waiting for something, or youknow, give them a situation that
they might put their characteryou or your character in memory
(34:58):
or imagination is kind of theway that we roll into the prompt
and then I do a timed writing.
I give them a warning at abouttwo minutes and then a few
seconds to wrap up.
Then I move on to the nextprompt, same idea, and then
after that usually I like to doa good 15 minutes so people can
(35:18):
have time to drop in.
Some people do seven minutes or10.
I like to do 15.
I keep my groups small.
I keep them to six people plusme.
So nice and intimate.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then, when it's time to read, they have the opportunity to
choose between one of thosepieces.
(35:38):
So sometimes you know you mightwrite something a little too
raw, a little too close to thebone.
So that gives you the freedomto do that, knowing that, well,
you never have to read.
One never has to read.
One never has to follow theprompt.
One never has to read.
One never has to give feedback.
So this we just want to keepeverybody safe and comfortable.
But generally speaking, oncepeople get the swing of things,
(36:01):
they will read and get thefeedback from.
Depending on if I have a fullslate of seven, including me, we
generally have two or threepeople give feedback and I
always give feedback.
And then I do one more promptand and then so.
So then just one more prompt,and then they still have a
(36:24):
choice to read the one theydidn't read the first time or
the second time.
So that we do, and that prettymuch wraps it up.
And then I do what KateMarshall Flaherty gave me, which
is a found poem she calls awaterfall sento, which is a
found poem she calls a waterfallsento.
So we find a phrase or asentence in something we've
(36:45):
written that day, we put it inthe chat and we wait until
everybody's got it in, and thenwe all hit, go together and then
we get this sort of found poemthat we, that we read at the end
with everybody's words together.
So that's the.
That's the online workshop.
And everybody's words together,so that's the.
That's the online workshop.
I have a retreat coming up inSpain, May 25.
(37:07):
We went there last year.
I was busy this year with mybook, so I didn't do an
international retreat, but theplace that we went to in Spain
was so exquisite, so amazinglybeautiful, that I have to go
back, so so in May we'll go backfor 10 days.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Oh, that's a nice long retreat.
What happens at the biggerretreats?
Because in my work that I do,so many of my clients this year
are doing retreats andconferences and events and
they're all creators, the peoplethat I work with, and they are
just lapping it up and I'm, so,I'm, I'm, I'm not able to travel
(37:47):
right now, so I'm just livingvicariously through them all.
What?
What do you do in in yourretreats, because that is quite
a few days there, so what?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, there I do.
My friend Sue Reynolds, who ismy mentor and teacher and friend
, does her retreats a little bitdifferently.
We started out doing themtogether.
She was leading and I was justorganizing, and the way I like
to do it is so essentially.
Oh, I take my friend Isana.
(38:19):
She comes everywhere with mebecause she teaches yoga.
We call it old lady yoga.
It's basically rolling aroundon the floor, it's a lot of
meditation.
So nobody needs to be shybecause they don't do yoga,
because it's a little bit ofstretching, a lot of breathing,
and it's just beautiful.
We do that first thing in themorning, then we go for
(38:40):
breakfast and then we gather todo essentially what I've.
But now we're in person so Ican give them things to hold.
Often I'll have to close theireyes, uh, and feel something and
feel it and smell it andwhatever, and then open their
eyes and then write about it asa warm-up as opposed to just a
word.
So that's one way I do that andthen I basically roll it out um
(39:03):
, the way I just described.
But we're there for because nownow we're talking 12 people,
yeah, 12 people.
So, uh, we're there for threehours and then and we have lunch
and then do whatever you like.
And this place is gorgeous.
It's got all these wonderfulplaces to just chill out and
(39:23):
lounges, and there's a pool,there's places to walk and relax
and read and write, do whateveryou like, and you have
basically from well, we finishat, I think, 1.
So, yeah, you have until like 6o'clock, when we have dinner,
to just do whatever you want.
It's so restorative.
(39:43):
People are tired.
Suja, hers are much morethrilling.
She goes everywhere.
Also, she's like Amherst's mama, but she goes to places in
England and Italy where famouswriters are, and she does these
excursions every day.
She does the morning, similarto what I do, and then she's and
I'm just getting a little tooold for that I mean wonderful,
(40:06):
we've got the energy, just gofor it.
Uh, but mine I really like tojust stop, and then one day, one
day, we do an excursion.
So after the writing, um, Ithink we eat, and then we head
out.
We went to Ronda and we had awalking tour where we visited
places where Rilke was,hemingway, orson Welles, which I
(40:28):
didn't even know he was there,and so that was really beautiful
.
And then we finished up with aflamenco show oh nice, which got
me totally addicted to flamenco.
Yeah, and that's an oh toflamenco.
Yeah, and, and that's an oh.
But then this beautiful thing inother works, in other retreats
that I've done, we've invitedpeople to a salon in the evening
(40:49):
after dinner to see if they'dlike to read something that they
wrote during the day or talkabout things.
People kind of few people hereand there.
It was been nice, casual,getting together.
This one in spain every day arewe going to do salon tonight?
And they all gathered together.
We had great conversations.
Uh, one fellow was talkingabout this amazing documentary
(41:12):
that he's doing.
Had us riveted.
Um, just, it was so lovely.
You know would ask a questionhow do you determine what's
great in art?
How do you distinguish betweengood art and great art?
Oh, my God, and just you know,yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that was a lovely way towrap up the evening and it
surprised me.
(41:33):
I, you know, I offered it and,wow, it just took off.
People were like lining up toget to the salons.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, in my previous business we used to run
conferences and and workshops aswell, and we did a retreat at
one point and the thing that wealways you know, we would send
out the survey afterwards askingfor feedback and everything and
the thing that just came acrossevery year loud and clear, is
like, loved it, love, getting tosee everyone wish there was
more time to just chat and getto know each other.
(42:05):
So every year we would build inmore time for everyone to and we
would still get that feedback,like I honestly think I used to
joke we could just get rid ofthe workshops and the sessions
and stuff and we could just putthem all in a room and they
would be very happy for threedays just chatting, because
there was just this.
I think creating can be verysolitary at times, regardless of
(42:28):
what aspect of the arts you'rein, and to get to sit down with
other people and feed off oneanother, which is kind of what
it is.
You're bouncing ideas andyou're having those
conversations and you never knowwhat's going to come out of
them and the relationships thatyou develop in those kinds of
environments.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, that was beautiful to see, especially
last year, how these people wereforming friendships and going
on hikes together.
People just met and formingthese bonds was beautiful.
It's lovely.
What I did was I made a book,also bouncing off of Sue's idea.
I made a journal which hadbecause I didn't want to carry
(43:12):
like scads of paper with me.
I made books and gave as manyas I could, away, first of all
with all the poems that we werepotentially going to use and a
little bit about Spain, and thenthe back was lined so that they
could use it as a journal.
So they also had a keepsake andsomeone just told me this was a
(43:34):
year ago, over a year ago, andshe said you know, I still look
at that journal and I still useit.
Oh my God, that's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, no, that's wonderful.
Before we started recording,you and I were just talking.
I've been recording all daytoday and last week I was
recording a lot for upcomingepisodes for the season and one
of the things I had mentioned isthat this kind of underlying
theme has shown itself in allthese interviews I've done this
week, where connection andcommunity are what everyone is
(44:10):
talking about this year and whateverybody is searching for and
looking for.
And you mentioned that you feelthis is part of the pandemic,
which I absolutely agree, thatyou feel this is part of the
pandemic, which I absolutelyagree.
But I think this is justsomething that people are
craving, and to be able to helpthem and to facilitate those
(44:36):
kinds of get-togethers is reallyimportant for the creative
community.
Yeah, I just think it'ssomething we need to have more
of.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Quite frankly, yeah, yeah, the community is.
It's really important and, likeyou say, creating is usually
solitary.
Definitely the revision processis solitary, but it's it's so
wonderful to have a community,to have that support, and I
think I think it's new Like thisis.
(45:02):
You know what I was sayingabout the pandemic and
everything.
It was more about therecognition, just because we'd
been locked in and then it waslike you know what we need, this
more than ever, and it's tohave yeah, I don't, it's to have
, yeah, I don't have.
Just, it's just so important tome and I I love right, I love
(45:25):
all these people.
I'm my.
Most of these people I've nevermet in the flesh.
I always joke and say you know,one day I might get to see your
feet, because I have people inisrael.
I have people all over the US,east Coast, west Coast, england,
ireland, new Zealand.
It's crazy.
It's just wonderful to have acommunity.
(45:47):
It's virtual but it'sremarkable how intimate you can
get in a couple of hours lookingat somebody on screen.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right.
I think when we initially cameout of the pandemic, it was kind
of like that bear coming out ofhibernation, you're bleary eyed
and you're looking around andyou're like, oh yeah, I remember
this.
And then, once we got out thereand we had kind of shook off
the hibernation, it was likewhere are my people?
I need my people, I need tohave that interaction and, yeah,
(46:23):
it's something that I thinkpeople are just craving like
crazy right now.
We also talk a lot on thispodcast about having multiple
streams of revenue asself-employed creatives, and I
think a lot of us don't realizehow creating these kinds of safe
(46:44):
environments because I thinkthat's important, making it safe
for our fellow creatives towork in, hone on their craft,
meet others doing same orsimilar things I don't think we
realize that there are peopleout there who are more than
willing to pay for that.
I don't think we realize thatthere are people out there who
are more than willing to pay forthat.
And, uh, how do you first ofall, do you struggle with that
(47:06):
as a writer like actuallyhosting these workshops and and
and retreats and charging forthem?
Is that something that you'recomfortable with, or is it
something you had to getcomfortable with?
How did that work for you?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, yeah, sort of asking for money is always a bit
awkward.
It's weird.
However, I think, because I seeand appreciate the value in
this work and and have paid forthis very work, happily that it
doesn't seem like such a stretch.
I don't charge a lot,especially especially since most
(47:43):
of my people are US, so when Isay you know it's $27, I said
what's that $4 for you?
But also, the thing is withwhat I do often is I have some
people that I know don't havemoney but they love to write,
(48:04):
and so if I have an empty seat,I will offer it to them and
that's something.
And, as a gesture towardsreconciliation, I always offer
seats to Indigenous people ifthey want to come.
But the rest of them, yeah,they can pay.
(48:28):
And I've been told, like withthe retreats, I've been told
well, you know, you don't chargeenough.
I'm like you know what?
I'm not trying to get rich.
I don't everything works out.
I think one of your questionsin your little blurb that you
sent me was you know what's yourbiggest mistake?
And I, I was like what you know, I make lots of mistakes, but,
but they always turn out, so Idon't.
(48:49):
I don't look back and see themas mistakes.
Either they open somethingabsolutely fresh and unexpected
up, or it just turns out andeverything's fine.
So I don't really see it asmistakes, and I can't remember
why I'm saying this to you.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
No, we were just talking about you know.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Money.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Money, yeah, and I think it's always weird for
creatives and I think we alwayskind of underestimate our value
or the value of what we give toother people or what we bring to
other people.
But the whole idea of likemistakes and you know, I don't
know quite where you were goingwith what your biggest mistake
was, but I'm assuming it wasmaybe along the lines of you
(49:30):
didn't charge enough in past,previous things.
But you know, when it comes to,like, the idea of mistakes and
we were just talking about thisin a previous interview that I
did today that these are thethings that bring you to where
you're supposed to be, likemaking those mistakes and I
(49:52):
don't even like the wordmistakes, they're just learning
opportunities.
That's how I like to frame itin my mind.
Like you know, you don't growif you don't learn, and you
don't learn unless you makemistakes.
It in my mind, like you know,you don't grow if you don't
learn and you don't learn unlessyou make mistakes.
So it all has to happen to getto the next step in your journey
.
So I think, yeah, but yes, Ithink a lot of creatives really
struggle with the whole idea.
(50:13):
But I think I think where I waskind of going with that is that
so many creatives whetherthey're writers, artists,
woodworkers, whatever it is thatthey might be doing don't
realize that doing these kindsof things is a very viable way
(50:35):
to earn additional revenue andstill be very immersed in what
it is that you love to do andsort of foster that love in
other people, and I think that'sactually very rewarding for a
lot of us when we actually stepout of our comfort zone and do
something like that.
Did you have to step out of acomfort zone to start doing
workshops and retreats, or wasthat something you just felt at
(50:58):
home with right away?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's hard to remember that, yeah, step out of my
comfort zone.
Well, yeah, in terms of thething is, in the beginning,
mostly it was people that I knewin the beginning, so it was
sort of like trial by friends,which is a good way to do it
sometimes, friends, which is agood way to do it sometimes.
(51:25):
So I, you know, I cut my teeth,I did, yeah, I did a few kind
of stumbled through, but mostlyI think it comes fairly natural
now and I guess it did.
It's hard to remember, it'sreally hard to remember, but
doing it now hard to remember,it's really hard to remember.
I've been doing it now.
I was certified in 2014, but II'd already started, uh, hosting
workshops in the met using themethod before I was actually
(51:48):
certified.
Um, yeah, giving a, definitely,letting people know that that's
what I was doing.
I wasn't 10, I was certifiedand maybe that's how I slid into
it.
The first retreat that I did onmy own, away from Sue was going
(52:10):
to Greece, but it was verysmall.
It was very small, there wereonly seven of us, I think, and
it was lovely.
It ended up being so divine.
I was pretty much a caretakerfor a couple of them.
(52:34):
So yeah, I don't know.
I guess maybe because I startedwith the retreat the first one
was small and then next wasSpain.
I tried to do one during thepandemic or just as it eased up
in Quebec.
And I had three people come, sothat was in Quebec, so we didn't
go, we didn't fly to anywhere.
(52:55):
I decided to go ahead with it.
I don't know, it's just every.
Everyone is different, everyoneis exciting and everyone, you
know you talk about beingrewarding, just, you know, being
able to write with people andlistening to what they have to
say.
And then, so I tell you when Iso, once the pandemic started
(53:18):
and I started to put up theseworkshops online.
Yeah, I was a little nervous inthe beginning to be doing so
many and doing them online, andI look at my lesson plans now
and I see how they've developed.
So it was going on for a whileand I think in the beginning I
was charging almost nothing but$15 or something, but I was
(53:40):
doing six, seven a week andafter a few weeks I looked at my
PayPal account and went, oh, oh, that's real money, that's an
income.
So it was a surprise.
And then, yeah, so from there Irealized, oh, this is, as you
say, a surprise.
(54:01):
And then, yeah, so from there Irealized, oh, this is, as you
say, another stream of incomeand it's uh, and I'm also a body
worker and because I couldn'tgive any massages during the
pandemic, that whole practicediminished and it worked out
great because then, even afterthe lockdown happened, I just
carried on and I didn't have togo back to giving 17, 20
sessions a week.
You know, I do maybe five orsix now, so it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, it's a nice balance there that you've got
when it comes to I think anotherthing that kind of intimidates
people about potentially runningworkshops and retreats is how
do you organize them?
And when you became accredited,did they give you any kind of
instruction on how to like thelogistics of doing these things,
(54:48):
or is that something you havehad to figure out on your own,
Because I know from doing themmyself that's a lot of work and
it can be, especially whenyou're talking about
international destinations andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yeah Well, I did them illegally apparently.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
I think a lot of us have done things unintentionally
, illegally.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, it wasn't on purpose, because basically, what
I did, like when we went toCosta Rica and had I figured it
out, by Italy, I don't knowAnyway I was taking everybody's
money, I don't know, anyway, Iwas taking everybody's money
Except for their flights Ididn't do that.
I let them well, some of them Ihelped book, but anyway, mostly
(55:26):
I took the money for myself andfor Sue and for the retreat.
You can't do that, not unlessyou're a certified travel agent.
If you're Tico or whatever,okay, yeah, no.
If you're tico or whatever,okay, yeah, no.
Uh.
So now what I have to do is Ihave to get them to pay the
retreat themselves.
(55:48):
they pay, they pay me for myfacility it has to do
international whatever anyway,so I can be paid here for my
facilitation, but theneverything else has to be paid
to the center.
Oh, but yeah, figuring it out,I think it's relatively
(56:09):
uncomplicated.
I was really trying to geteverybody together.
Last year I booked Airbnbs foreverybody and paid for them.
Year I booked Airbnbs foreverybody and paid for them, and
then I think I can do that.
I don't know, I don't know ifthat's illegal, but anyway,
nobody's come after me yet, andso but it was a lot.
(56:33):
That was a lot of work tryingto organize everybody and try to
figure out their flights andeverything.
I'm not doing that this year,well, especially because I'm
having people coming fromvarious destinations and I have
no idea, Right, right, yeah, I'mjust telling them, you know, we
meet at the train station atsuch and such a time on such and
such a day, and they have tofigure it out, and people are
(56:55):
grown up, they can do that.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So it becomes a little um onerous when they do
that do you organize somethingwith the venue, like wherever it
is that you're going to bestaying, whether it's an airbnb,
a hotel, uh um, do you organizelike a package?
And then it's basically theycan, when they're booking, they
book directly and stay, thatthey are with your group or
(57:19):
whatever.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Oh, yeah, well, I'm trying to think with.
Each one is different.
Spain and Greece was the same.
That that I.
I was doing all the logisticswith the venue and then I would
tell them these people arecoming and some people would pay
in advance to the venue.
Some waited until they gotthere.
There they were fine with that.
(57:41):
But yeah, it's a, it's alwaysfor me.
I go to a place like a retreatcenter, not a hotel.
Okay, um, other people go tohotels and I think yeah, there's
so many ways you can do it, butthey hire tour companies and
I'm just doing it by myself,which is why I can keep my, I
can keep my fees low.
Um, yeah, so so I'm, I'm inconversation with the retreat
(58:06):
center and they're always lovely, whether it was in Italy or in
Greece or Spain.
They're just so generous and sothey will organize for us a
pickup bus person to pickeverybody up all at once, and
then I get them to organize atrip out.
(58:30):
We went to Rwanda this timewent to other places where we
have dinner and stuff.
So I ask them, where should wego?
Who should we go through?
Kind of thing.
So try to keep it as simple aspossible, but everybody, you
know everybody has to do theirown thing.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Yeah, there are other people.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
I know Kerry tennis.
It does an Italian one where heincludes cooking lessons and
really cool stuff like that.
So yeah, I don't know might dothat.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
I think, too, for those listening, like we're
talking about don't know, mightdo that one time.
I think, too, for thoselistening, we're talking about a
destination multi-day retreathere, but you could still get
started with this, doing exactlywhat you do by hosting online
workshops or online meetups oncea week, or doing something
smaller in your local communityone or two nights a week where a
(59:20):
group of you meet.
I know, like my local library,there's a writer's group that
meets there.
There's also a fiber artistgroup that meets once a week to
do something similar.
Like.
There's a lot of different waysthat you can make something
like this.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, so it's.
You don't have to start with aninternational retreat.
Oh my God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
Let's take 15 people overseas.
No, start small and see if it'sa.
You don't have to start with aninternational retreat oh my God
.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
No.
Start small and see if it'ssomething that you enjoy first.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
But find a writing buddy if that's what you want to
do or, like you say, whateveryour art thing is.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, absolutely, because, yes, absolutely, have
you found I mean, we've kind oftouched on this and this is kind
of the last question I'll leaveyou with but have you found
that running these workshops andretreats has helped you develop
a vibrant community around you,like, do these people become
more than just your attendees?
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
And you know, I've actually got to meet some of
them in person.
I live very rurally and I don'thave a community around me, so
I'm you know, my closest friendis 22 minutes away that way, the
other one's 25 minutes.
That way, I don't, yeah, I justdon't have a close community
physically close to me, but Ifeel like I think I said earlier
(01:00:43):
, I just feel such love for thepeople that show up and then
when we get to go away together,it's awesome, it's just yeah.
So that was that was reallylovely to meet some of the
people I've only met online.
To meet them in person.
Yeah, it's just, it's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I think that's a uniquely Canadian thing too.
We forget how much of thiscountry is rural.
If you live in downtown Torontoor downtown Vancouver or
downtown Montreal, you can finda writing group to join, but
when you're further out,workshop for purely selfish
reasons so that you can build acommunity around you.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
(01:01:27):
So it has been lovely havingyou on the show today.
What is next for you?
You mentioned you've got aretreat going to Spain next year
and, yeah, what else have yougot in the?
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
works well.
I have a finished novel that isout on submission.
So hopefully, hopefully, thislittle thing that's happening
will spark some interest with anagent or a publisher and take
me to the next, into the, thenext, the next push Um cause,
trust me, there's a lot of workum involved in launching and
(01:02:07):
promoting and marketing one'snovel, even if it is
traditionally published.
So, but I'm, I'm, I'm a littlebit more seasoned now than I was
Um, so that's happening and I'min the midst of I have a rough
draft of another novel.
That's a little bit more.
It's a departure for me, it's alittle more speculative.
(01:02:28):
Yeah, it's fun to write because, yeah, anyway, do you want me
to tell you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Yeah, if you're ready to share a little bit about it,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Yeah, so it was inspired by Claire Sylvia's
memoir about receiving the heartand lungs of an 18-year-old
young man who died in amotorcycle crash and without
knowing that, as she wasrecovering she was craving
(01:03:00):
things like beer and she wantedto ride a motorcycle and she
wanted mcdonald's french fries,which was like what?
Apparently he died with somemcdonald's french fries in his
jacket.
Um, so anyway that I my headkind of exploded about well, who
(01:03:20):
, what?
I thought we were here, youknow, and so, and it goes, it's
much more.
Her memoir is much more thanjust that, because she gets his
name, his name comes to her, shedreams him, she lives with him.
So I did a whole.
What if?
what if the heart and lungs arefully conscious and they want
(01:03:43):
out.
Oh, so I've got.
Now I've got a 51 year oldwoman with a heart and lungs of
a 25 year old man who doesn'tdie in a motorcycle crash.
He dies in a plane crash, butanyway, yeah.
So it's told in two voices thevoice from the inside and the
voice on the outside.
Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
So I'm having a lot of fun, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that is kind of interesting.
I'll have to look out for thatand see if you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Just got to finish it .
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
So, for those who are listening, where can people
find you online if they wouldlike to learn more about your
retreats and what you do?
But also where can they findyour book?
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
My website is writeyourwayinca and the book is
called what the Living Do.
You can find a link to get iton my website, but it's
available on Amazon both CA andcom, and I think other countries
(01:04:44):
.
It's available on Amazon bothCA and com, and I think other
countries.
It's on Amazon.
I have an audio book coming outI don't know when, but I did
get to choose the narrator,which was really exciting.
Oh, cool, yeah, and so I'mreally excited about that but
it's not out yet.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
It will be right, so everyone watch for it.
Um, what the living do is, aswe mentioned, nominee.
It's a finalist, not justnominated finalist, for the
canadian book club awards, whichI believe are awarded in
january.
So, yeah, so keep an eye outfor that.
But, uh, if you have a bookclub and you haven't read the
book, it might be one that youwant to pick up and give a whirl
with your group.
We will put links to all ofthis in the show notes, everyone
(01:05:24):
, so you don't need to worryabout spelling or any of that
kind of thing, so you'll be ableto click right through.
And yes, susan, it has beengreat having you on the show
this week.
I really enjoyed getting tochat with you.
Thank you so much, it's beengreat fun.
Thank you and for those of youlistening.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We will be back in two weekswith another brand new episode
(01:05:47):
and we will talk to you all then.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the and she Looked Up
Creative Hour.
If you're looking for links orresources mentioned in this
episode, you can find detailedshow notes on our website at
andshelookedupcom.
While you're there, be sure tosign up for our newsletter for
(01:06:07):
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(01:06:30):
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And now let's get on with theshow.
Welcome to the and she Looked Uppodcast.
Each week we sit down withinspiring Canadian women who
create for a living.
(01:24):
We talk about their creativejourneys and their best business
tips, as well as the creativeand business mindset issues all
creative entrepreneurs strugglewith.
I'm your host, melissaHartfield, and, after leaving a
20-year career in corporateretail, I've been happily
self-employed for 12 years.
I'm a graphic designer, anillustrator and a
multi-six-figure-a-yearentrepreneur in the digital
(01:46):
content space.
This podcast is for the artists, the makers and the creatives
who want to find a way to make aliving doing what they love.
Hello everyone, and welcome toanother episode of the and she
Looked Up podcast.
As always, I am your host,melissa, and this week I am very
(02:11):
excited to be welcoming authorSusan Wads to the podcast.
Welcome to the show, susan.
It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I'm so excited to be here.
Yeah, I think we're going tohave a great conversation today
here.
Yeah, I think we're going tohave a great conversation today.
For those of you who may not befamiliar with Susan, she is an
author and she is an AmherstWriters and Artists Writing
Workshop Facilitator, which weare going to be talking about
quite a bit this afternoon.
She is also a mother and atherapeutic body worker and she
(02:40):
is a finalist for the CanadianBook Club Awards this year with
her debut novel, what the LivingDo, and we're going to be
talking about that as well inthis episode.
So we have got a lot of juicythings to be discussing today.
And Susan, the first thing thatI start every episode off with
is asking each of our guestswere you or did you feel
(03:03):
creative as a kid growing up?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think I was creative.
I had great aspirations to be apoet and novelist.
Of course I you know I suckedat crafts.
I'm not a visual artist at all,but I've always loved words and
I've always loved putting themtogether, however awkwardly that
(03:28):
began in everyone but as awriter is writing something that
you have done since you were alittle kid.
(03:52):
What brought you to writing, orwhat is it about words that you
love?
Yeah, reading, of course,started it all.
Started that ball rolling.
I had this notion.
I think reading was what did it.
I just thought I want to dothat, I want to make those books
.
I read Herman Hesse and Narzisand Goldman and wept and I
thought, oh, if I could dosomething that makes people cry,
(04:14):
that would be just great.
And then when I read LeonardCohen's Beautiful Losers, then
that opened up a whole otherrealm of possibility, because,
it's crazy, he did all kinds ofvery odd things in that book and
that kind of gave me thefreedom as I can do.
(04:37):
I could do anything, doanything.
And so you know'm not so smartas a child, but when I was in
grade 11, I thought that Iwanted to quit school to write.
I mean, you know, anyway, myparents indulged me and we went
to the principal and theprincipal asked me when do you
(05:00):
like to write?
I was writing mostly poems, butalso stories at the time, and I
I just was not into school atall and felt that I just needed
to be by myself.
So I said, well, I like towrite in the morning.
And so what they did was veryclever.
They said, okay, well, youwrite in the morning and come to
classes in the afternoon.
And I thought, oh, oh, allright.
(05:22):
So that was me starting mygreat career of writing at
whatever 16.
And then I went to at 17, Imoved to the Kootenays and 17
through 21, I went back andforth from Ontario to BC and
(05:43):
living in various places in theSlokan Valley and finally I was
able to procure a cabin up inthe mountains where I could
write my poems, and but thefolly, of course, is that I was
so young I really didn't haveanything to write about yet, but
I wrote a lot.
Nobody gets to see that stuff,so that was sort of the
(06:06):
beginning.
Oh, and the other thing that Idid was, again, my parents were
very indulgent the year I turned17,.
So I was 16,.
They let me go from London,ontario, to Quebec City and
spend the summer there writingmy great novel, which, of course
, has never seen the light ofday, all written by hand.
I didn't have a typewriter atthe time, so, yeah, it's kind of
(06:30):
in my blood.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Where did you wind up , going in Quebec City and
having a place to write?
That's so interesting to me?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Well, it was kind of the olden days because I got a
pension in old Quebec.
That's so interesting to me.
Well, it was kind of the oldendays Because I got a pension in
old Quebec, just not too farfrom the chateau, just down the
road, and I loved it because tome it was my Garrett Right.
I was no Virginia Woolf, youknow, looking down and feeling
very provincial.
(07:01):
So yeah, and I think it waslike $7 a night or something
like that.
Those were the olden days, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Was there a reason you chose Quebec City?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yes, yes, there was Because the year before I had
been in a student exchange whereI went to live with a French
family and they thought I wasfar too, I don't know, risque or
something for their daughter.
So she never came back toOntario with me.
But I fell in love with Quebeccity so I pressed upon my
parents.
I was supposed to be an au pairfor a business associate of my
(07:38):
father's, but then they decidedthey were going to their chalet
for the summer and didn't needme.
I'm like I need to go to Quebeccity, so they let me go.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Oh, wow, that's awesome.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
And I mean the Kootenays.
I'm here in BC.
The Kootenays is one of myfavorite places in the world and
it has such a tremendouscreative community up there.
It always has, it's got atradition of that and still is
is to this day, so that musthave been um quite an experience
(08:08):
as well.
It's it can be remote, but it'salso got quite a tight-knit
community at the same time, soit certainly did in those days,
even though I was very isolatedin my little cabin.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
There was a tremendous the the um
valhallaalla community centerwas being built at the time.
Great parties around that,dances and brain damage.
I don't know if you know theband brain.
You must have heard of them.
They were very, they werewonderful.
And yeah, so the ValhallelujahRangers.
Like there were all theseamazing creatives there were
(08:42):
skit people and dancers andsingers, and then there was what
was that called Multifusion, Ithink it was called in Nelson,
which was this huge sort of itwas a mix of healing
practitioners and I learnedsquare dancing and poetry
(09:02):
readings and that sort of thing.
So yeah, it was a great timeand I think it's still very
vibrant, especially aroundNelson and my friend lives in
Kaslo.
There's a real and I went.
One of the things I did was formy launch.
I went to Nelson to do a launchthere at the bookstore, because
(09:26):
the character in what theLiving Do comes from Nelson, so
that was fun to go back.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I know the exact bookstore you're talking about.
One of my old friends lived inNelson for years, and so it's
one of the prettiest littleplaces in the country.
It really is a lovely, lovelylittle town and still very
vibrant, uh, creative, community.
Yeah, there's a lot offestivals and things there
throughout the summer.
So, yeah, that's really coolthat you were able to do that.
(09:53):
Um, I think there's so many ofus who would love to just have a
cabin in the woods.
Um, it sounds very romantic,right, but it I'm sure there was
moments where it was veryisolating as well.
So, yeah, what brought youalong the path to your debut
novel?
Because you've been writing fora long time.
You've written poetry, shortfiction, a whole realm of things
(10:15):
, and now you have a novel.
And so what was it that madeyou feel the need to write
something bigger and longer, andwhat brought you to this
particular novel, which iscalled what the Living Do, for
those of you who may have missedthat in the intro.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, it's an intro that took me in in a different
way.
What made me think I wanted towrite a novel?
I think I.
Oh, oh, yes, okay, I know Ihave an answer.
Can I answer that?
Oh, oh, yes, okay, I know.
(11:07):
Yeah, because the thing was it'sas often will do with some of
my novels as they start out tobe short stories and then they
kind of blow up on me.
So this one in particular, Ihad written, I had the genesis
for the story and I looselybased on my own experience, but
it needed to be fiction.
So I started to write it in afictional way.
Uh, and I basically wrote thewhole story in about 10 pages
and, uh, gave it to a writerfriend and she read it and said,
oh my God, it's like you'reyelling.
Everything is happening all atonce, it's too much, it's like
in your face.
So I said, oh my God, it's likeyou're yelling, everything is
happening all at once, it's toomuch, it's like in your face.
So I said, okay, well, I guesswe'll have to just stretch it
(11:29):
out and make more things happenand slow it down a bit.
And, yeah, and I took twoReynolds, a novel approach.
It was a year long course towrite the first draft of your
novel in the AWA, the AmherstWriters and Artists Method of
Facilitation.
And so what happens with that,for me and for quite a few other
(11:53):
writers, is we get a prompt.
It might be a visual prompt, orit might be a tactile prompt,
or it might be a poem, and we'reinvited to take it in any
direction that we like.
So I took each prompt into mystory, so it would take me in
slant, it would take me insideways in an unexpected way.
For instance, there's a firethat claims the life of both her
(12:19):
father the main character'sfather and baby sister, and one
of the prompts was a fire and II realized that I needed to have
her have a history.
That was, that was way moredramatic than mine.
So, um, I, that's what I I'msorry I had to kill them, but
that's what I did.
(12:40):
And it just went on and onuntil, you know, I had the book
finished.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
so you mentioned and I and I read a little bit in
another interview with you thatthis is partly inspired by your
own life, but that you needed tofictionalize it.
And so what like?
What is that?
What is that process?
Like taking something that ispartly yours but then turning it
into the story of somebody whoyou haven't met yet when you
(13:09):
start the writing process, likeyou're kind of meeting them as
you write them?
I guess, yes, what was thatlike?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's a great way of looking at it.
I love that.
I love that.
I love the way you put that wehave to create a persona.
So one of the other elementsbeside my own life with cancer
I'm fine, by the way was Ineeded to find a character that
(13:39):
wasn't me, wasn't?
Speaker 1 (13:40):
me.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So their road crews.
I saw someone said once, andit's actually in the book
someone said why are all thewomen who work, you know,
holding the stop slow signs?
Why are they all hot blondes?
And I thought, yeah, wait aminute.
So what if you know that hotblonde?
You're not particularly hot,she's an average looking woman.
(14:01):
But what if she wasn't holdinga stop sign?
What if she was down?
And what would she be like ifshe was working alongside those
men?
What kind of a person would shebe?
Well, she'd be kind of tough.
She'd be kind of tough.
She'd have to, you know, dealwith those guys and their
misogynistic outbursts and so on.
So, yeah, that's's so.
(14:22):
Then Brett was created and shewas definitely.
Well, some people say no, Ihear you in there, but I didn't
think she was me.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I think it's impossible to write a character
without some part of your voicecreeping into it in some way,
even if they're completelydifferent from me.
Yeah, yeah, the book is afinalist in the fiction category
for the 2024 Canadian Book ClubAwards, which is
congratulations.
How does that make you feel,especially knowing that this is
(14:57):
a Reader's Choice Award?
So this is the public.
This book has obviouslyresonated with a lot of people.
And how does that make you feel, knowing that?
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Kind of shocked.
Yeah Well, the funny thing wasin June, when I was in Nelson
doing a reading, a gal came upto me and said I just want you
to know I've read your book.
I'm a verified reader for theCanadian Club Awards.
And right now your book isstanding at number one, which
(15:27):
was great because I think therewere 12 people in the audience,
so it was a real boost for me,yeah.
So that was really exciting andI thought, well, that's great,
let's see.
And then, when it came up thatI was the finalist, like, oh my
God, and I think overall, what,what?
Surprised, because this bookisn't a happy book.
(15:48):
It's not a happy book, no, ithas some pretty deep themes
running through it.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean you mentioned yeah, you mentioned some of them
and, and just for the audience,if you're not familiar with it,
it it talks about gender roles,survivor, guilt, sexual
grooming, like there's.
There's a lot going on in this,in this book, so it's not a
happy suicidal ideation.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
It's so.
I mean it has it.
By the way, just so everybodyknows it has a satisfying end.
You, you won't hate her in theend.
Um, but what surprised me ishow many people have told me
that not only the book resonatedwith them, but they identified
with her.
You know they might have beenreally mad at her and wanted to
slap her across the face forbeing so resistant, but in the
(16:33):
end they understood.
And so many people have said oh, I saw parts of myself in her.
And that surprised me.
Yeah, but the biggest surprisewas men who like the book.
oh interesting and most of Imean, I have four blurbs from
really fine you know, author men, author friends, um, but some,
(16:57):
so most of the men who've readit started off being my friends.
They bought it because theyknow me and saying things like
this isn't the book I would havepicked up for myself.
But one fellow, one fellowwriter in Israel, said I bought
a whole bunch of copies and gavethem to all my men friends
because they need to read it andanother man said.
(17:18):
An old friend said I learned alot about women.
I'm like what I set out to do,that I just wanted to tell my
story.
So those are the surprises.
So when I got the book clubaward I thought, oh, that's just
, that's divine.
Yeah, not just my friends.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah, no, no, of course.
Right, you know it obviouslyresonated with a lot of people
and that has to be veryrewarding, I would think so.
Yes, now you mentioned that oneof the things that got you
going through this process ofwriting the book was the Amherst
Writers and Workshop group, andyou are also now a certified
(17:57):
workshop facilitator throughthem.
So I was not familiar with thisgroup when I first started
researching for this podcast.
Familiar with this group when Ifirst started researching for
this podcast.
So maybe first of all, tell usa little bit about what the
group is and what the program islike and the method behind it,
and then maybe a little bit ofhow it helped you as a writer.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Sure, I think somewhere in the 70s a woman
named Pat Schneider in Amherst,massachusetts, developed this
work to offer it to marginalized, underrepresented, silenced
(18:38):
community Because she came fromthe academic stream and she
found that that was not a placewhere she could let loose and
really express her creativity.
But what she recognized was thateveryone is born with creative
genius and the teaching of craftcan be done.
These are the precepts of themethod and teaching of craft can
be done without damage to awriter's authentic voice,
(19:03):
original voice or theirself-esteem.
It's such an organic process.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
And and when we so now it's a huge organization.
We have upwards of 600, 700affiliates, and then we have a
whole other arm which are writermembers that have all their own
benefits, and there's a coupleof hundred of those.
(19:31):
Um, so it's, it's a, it's aprocess where because when
people read their freshlygenerated work, when they get
(19:53):
feedback, it's really we onlyfocus on what's strong and
what's working.
No criticism, no questionsabout it, no pinning the author
to a wall.
We don't.
Even even if it is a memoirthat is, or seems to be, memoir,
(20:13):
we never refer to the writer oryou.
We always refer to thecharacter, the speaker, just to
give that little bit of a buffer.
And what that does is it createsa tremendously safe space for
people to write what they needto write, because everybody has
a story to tell, and their storymight be in a poem, it might be
an essay, it might be a pieceof fiction, and that is always
wide open.
(20:33):
For you know, even if you cometo a themed workshop, that might
be I don't know it might be apoetry workshop You're actually
not even required to writepoetry, you can write whatever
you want.
So that just makes it safe, itmakes it interesting and writing
with other writers and hearing,and the other thing that it
(20:57):
does is it really helps youdevelop your listening.
Because if you're listening forwhat's strong, what's memorable
, what you know, the dialogue,the structure, anything that's
strong, it's immediately goingto help you figure out what
works in writing.
Yeah, it will organically startto develop your craft.
(21:20):
And it's so gratifying to hearbecause often people will, you
know, oh, I don't want to read.
Well, you know, okay, well,I'll read, but this isn't any
good, you know, just read, justfind out.
And then there's this magicprocess that happens when,
already, when you're reading,because you don't, I mean, we
just wrote, we wrote for 15minutes, we don't really know
(21:40):
what we've written, so we readit and even as we're reading it,
it's starting to change becausewe're also kind of hearing what
other people are hearing.
And then we get the feedbackand oh, oh, did I do that?
Oh, it's just so uplifting andit makes you want to keep
writing.
And that's what happened to me.
(22:00):
I hadn't written for a numberof years.
I went off to India and did abunch of stuff, went to a
commune, Then I raised a familyand kind of got away from
anything fulsome like any bigprojects.
And then, around 2007, I waslike but I'd lost my confidence.
I wanted to write.
I wasn't quite sure what Iwanted to write, but I knew I
(22:26):
was hungry for it and so I waspointed by a lovely woman, Anna
McKay Smith.
I'd hired her to be my, my, mylife coach, my creativity coach,
and after a while she said youknow, I think you need AWA, I
think you need Sue Reynolds.
And she sent me off to aworkshop and I left.
(22:47):
I left the workshop crying,actually, just like, oh my God,
I can do this, I can do this.
And yeah, the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, I, you mentioned confidence there and I
think I don't think it mattersif you're a writer or a painter
or like I think all creativeshave that.
What's the word I'm looking for?
But sharing our work,especially in early stages,
where you're still figuring itout, is so scary for a lot of us
(23:21):
, you know, and it's justfinding that confidence to be
able to put it out there, evenwhen you know it's not ready
necessarily to be consumed bythe, by other people.
But it's frightening and we allknow, we all know after we've
done this for a while, that thestuff that comes out initially
is is the messy stuff, right,Like you got to get that stuff
(23:44):
out before you can continue onrefining it and and polishing it
and turning it into like evenjust developing it into what
it's meant to be at the end ofthe process.
So it is scary to do that andto do it in front of a group of
other people.
I think, yeah, it's notsomething any of us are super
(24:07):
comfortable with, I think.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Yeah it's so rewarding to watch that over
time.
I'm thinking this happens afair bit.
But one woman in particular,when she started writing with me
, she said oh, you know, kind ofprivately, she said everybody,
everybody's so good.
And I, you know, I don't thinkI'm really giving very good
feedback, or you know, I don'treally think, oh my God.
Now her writing like this is ayear and a half later.
(24:33):
It's stunning.
Writing like this is a year anda half later.
It's stunning.
And and, and that's that's thereward.
To see that, to hear that kindof oh, and, and she's writing
all kinds of stuff it's shortflash stuff, memoir stuff, and
and she's just hit her stride,yeah.
So that's that's the, that'sthe sweet, that's the sweet,
(24:54):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I love this idea of just focusing on the strengths
too, because often we don't evenwe're not even sure what our
strengths are and, like you said, she's sitting there going.
It's not good enough kind ofthing.
But to get that feedback onwhat it is that you do so well
and that always drives us to domore of it, because we got that
(25:16):
great positive affirmation thatwe are good at what we're doing,
so I love that.
I think that's such a great wayto go about it.
What was it that made youdecide that you wanted to become
a facilitator Like?
It obviously had a big impacton you because you've gone
through that process.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
now to to be able to do this yourself yeah, I mean I
wanted to share it, I wanted tospread the love yeah, and.
I was doing.
I started out by doing oneevening a week at first, and
(25:56):
then I would add one full day amonth and that was great and I
loved that.
And then COVID hit and I woulddo the occasional retreat a week
or long weekend or whatever.
And then COVID hit and Zoomhappened and we were all locked
(26:19):
in and that just made it blow up.
I was now I'm doing five, six aweek and just loving it.
So what made me want to do it?
Yeah, that's the simple answer.
I wanted to share it and Inever I'm not somebody who's
ever made a business planEverything in my life just
(26:40):
organically happens and I justsay yes, I just yes, we're going
to do this.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think that's true for a lot of creatives who
create for a living.
I don't think very many of usever do a business plan and I
think we all tend to get drawnby like.
We like interesting projects,right.
That's what it's hard to say nowhen an interesting project
lands in your lap.
So yeah.
(27:08):
So now you spend a lot of yourtime hosting and writing
workshops.
You do online, as you mentioned, and you do in person.
Um, yeah, what is it about thisthat you find so rewarding?
Because I imagine it has to bepretty rewarding oh it's, it's,
it's thrilling.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
It's thrilling the voices that I get to meet.
You know you.
Earlier you said, oh, it'smessy.
Half the time it doesn't soundmessy at all.
Maybe when it's written down itmight look messy, but just
hearing what people wrote in,like I say 10, 15, 20 minutes,
(27:47):
and often people will say, oh,my God, that's finished, that's
ready to go.
So that is just thrilling.
And in any one workshop I mighthave a poet writing really deep
, sad stuff and another personwriting humor.
But the humor always has a, youknow, a darker edge to it An
(28:09):
underside, yeah.
It's so rich.
Yeah, absolutely, somebodymight be writing into a fantasy
novel.
You know, it's just all thesedifferent voices.
One person said, I don't know,this is kind of R-rated.
And we're like, yeah, bring it,it's a safe space, everybody
(28:29):
knows it's confidentiality.
We're just doing it here, it'sfor our ears only, that's it.
And yeah, so the thing itselfis rewarding.
I am living my best life.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Oh, that's fantastic, I think.
The messy thing is, I think,for us the creator, it's messy
in our head and we don't realizehow it sounds to other people.
And I think that's one of thegreat things about getting your
work in front of other people.
Is you kind of?
But you said somethinginteresting, because I don't
know how many times this hashappened to me.
Where you like, I'm in amastermind group.
(29:07):
The group of us have beentogether for years and so often
I've caught myself.
We use a Facebook group most ofthe time to just leave our
questions for each other, andit's a small group and I'll go
into the group with a question,I'll start writing it out and as
I'm writing it out and talkingit through my brain, by the time
I finished writing the question, I've kind of answered it in my
(29:30):
own head.
Like that act of saying it outloud or writing it out to share
with other people it, I don'tknow it.
There is something verypowerful about that, and so I
would think, doing these kindsof retreats and workshops, I
would imagine a lot of peoplefeel that way, Like they start
to talk about it and then it'slike it crystallizes in your
(29:51):
brain, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Yeah, that will happen, and especially with the
feedback.
I often what will happen is thefeedback points out something
that one doesn't even realizethey've done.
Yeah like they might have used ametaphor.
They didn't realize it was ametaphor.
Or I'm trying to think of anexample.
Of course I can't think of oneright off the, but that will
(30:14):
often happen.
Oh yeah, I did that.
Or there'll be an internalrhyme, or they'll be.
You know, I don't know.
It's that that's.
That's a super wonderfulbenefit of reading something
aloud.
Uh yeah, and there's always agem.
There's always something thatreally sparkles in in everybody.
I haven't ever heard anybodyread something they just wrote
(30:37):
that didn't have something, thatwas juicy.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I like that, like juicy things.
Do you find that doing this,what you're doing, the
facilitation and running theworkshops do you find that makes
you a better writer?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, because, because I'm hearing fabulous
work, yeah, but the the thing isthat one of the rules of being
a facilitator is that we have towrite along with our
participants.
Okay, we have to take the samerisks and we have to read at
(31:12):
least once in every workshop andhear what people say.
So, uh, what makes me a betterwriter is that I'm writing more
than I would if I was left to myown devices that's super
interesting, because we alwaysyeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We always think of like workshops and retreats and
things like that.
The facilitator is kind ofsitting over here and everybody
else is sitting here and talkingand you're just directing
traffic, but you actually haveto take part, like that makes it
really immersive and you've gotto walk the walk as well, right
(31:48):
?
So, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, so often I willshow up and I think oh God, I
don't.
I mean, I've written everythingI want to write and then, and
then guess what Stuff comes,Isn't that yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, it's brilliant.
It's a brilliant method.
Well, let's just talk with,like, an online workshop or an
in-person workshop.
What can they expect at this?
You've kind of mentioned a fewthings, but what is the whole?
What's it like for them whenthey walk into that room?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
for the first time.
If it's in person, what theywill find is what we call an on
chairs, which is a quote or apoem which is sitting on each
chair that is to be sat upon,and that has a couple of
functions.
In an in-person one One itgives people.
They know that that chairhasn't been taken because
(32:46):
there's a poem on it, right?
So?
And they have something to do,right If they're feeling awkward
and they also have and it'll besomething that might spark
something for them that justsimply delight them.
So what I do in an online oneis, even though I can't put it
on their chair, I send it withalong with the zoom link.
(33:08):
I send a little, so it has aslightly different function,
just sort of a littleamuse-gulle, as they say, little
taster.
So that's on chairs and then youknow, it just depends on
whether, if so, somebody new isin.
(33:28):
Then we will go around and dointroductions, maybe a little
bit about their own writing orwhat they hope to do.
When everybody knows oneanother, we generally just jump
in.
We might do a little meditation, a little grounding meditation
to begin, and then I always do Ido.
This is just the way I run myworkshops.
We are free to run them prettymuch any way we like, as long as
(33:52):
we adhere to the principles andthe precepts.
So, what I like to do is give afive minute warm up prompt.
So when it's online, I'll put aword and a picture up and say
just you can ignore it or use itfive minutes.
And then we read around withoutany commentary, so we just get
(34:13):
the voices in the room and thenI'll offer mostly right now, of
course, I'm doing online so Iwill put a poem.
I like pictures and words, sosometimes it'll just be a
picture, but often it will be apoem or a quote and a picture.
I'll read the poem or I'll getsomebody in the room to read it
(34:36):
and I've got a couple ofwonderful readers so I'll just
hand it over to them and then.
So then I offer somesuggestions of what they might
do.
You know this character, youmight have this character
waiting for something, or youknow, give them a situation that
they might put their characteryou or your character in memory
(34:58):
or imagination is kind of theway that we roll into the prompt
and then I do a timed writing.
I give them a warning at abouttwo minutes and then a few
seconds to wrap up.
Then I move on to the nextprompt, same idea, and then
after that usually I like to doa good 15 minutes so people can
(35:18):
have time to drop in.
Some people do seven minutes or10.
I like to do 15.
I keep my groups small.
I keep them to six people plusme.
So nice and intimate.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then, when it's time to read, they have the opportunity to
choose between one of thosepieces.
(35:38):
So sometimes you know you mightwrite something a little too
raw, a little too close to thebone.
So that gives you the freedomto do that, knowing that, well,
you never have to read.
One never has to read.
One never has to follow theprompt.
One never has to read.
One never has to give feedback.
So this we just want to keepeverybody safe and comfortable.
But generally speaking, oncepeople get the swing of things,
(36:01):
they will read and get thefeedback from.
Depending on if I have a fullslate of seven, including me, we
generally have two or threepeople give feedback and I
always give feedback.
And then I do one more promptand and then so.
So then just one more prompt,and then they still have a
(36:24):
choice to read the one theydidn't read the first time or
the second time.
So that we do, and that prettymuch wraps it up.
And then I do what KateMarshall Flaherty gave me, which
is a found poem she calls awaterfall sento, which is a
found poem she calls a waterfallsento.
So we find a phrase or asentence in something we've
(36:45):
written that day, we put it inthe chat and we wait until
everybody's got it in, and thenwe all hit, go together and then
we get this sort of found poemthat we, that we read at the end
with everybody's words together.
So that's the.
That's the online workshop.
And everybody's words together,so that's the.
That's the online workshop.
I have a retreat coming up inSpain, May 25.
(37:07):
We went there last year.
I was busy this year with mybook, so I didn't do an
international retreat, but theplace that we went to in Spain
was so exquisite, so amazinglybeautiful, that I have to go
back, so so in May we'll go backfor 10 days.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Oh, that's a nice long retreat.
What happens at the biggerretreats?
Because in my work that I do,so many of my clients this year
are doing retreats andconferences and events and
they're all creators, the peoplethat I work with, and they are
just lapping it up and I'm, so,I'm, I'm, I'm not able to travel
(37:47):
right now, so I'm just livingvicariously through them all.
What?
What do you do in in yourretreats, because that is quite
a few days there, so what?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yeah, there I do.
My friend Sue Reynolds, who ismy mentor and teacher and friend
, does her retreats a little bitdifferently.
We started out doing themtogether.
She was leading and I was justorganizing, and the way I like
to do it is so essentially.
Oh, I take my friend Isana.
(38:19):
She comes everywhere with mebecause she teaches yoga.
We call it old lady yoga.
It's basically rolling aroundon the floor, it's a lot of
meditation.
So nobody needs to be shybecause they don't do yoga,
because it's a little bit ofstretching, a lot of breathing,
and it's just beautiful.
We do that first thing in themorning, then we go for
(38:40):
breakfast and then we gather todo essentially what I've.
But now we're in person so Ican give them things to hold.
Often I'll have to close theireyes, uh, and feel something and
feel it and smell it andwhatever, and then open their
eyes and then write about it asa warm-up as opposed to just a
word.
So that's one way I do that andthen I basically roll it out um
(39:03):
, the way I just described.
But we're there for because nownow we're talking 12 people,
yeah, 12 people.
So, uh, we're there for threehours and then and we have lunch
and then do whatever you like.
And this place is gorgeous.
It's got all these wonderfulplaces to just chill out and
(39:23):
lounges, and there's a pool,there's places to walk and relax
and read and write, do whateveryou like, and you have
basically from well, we finishat, I think, 1.
So, yeah, you have until like 6o'clock, when we have dinner,
to just do whatever you want.
It's so restorative.
(39:43):
People are tired.
Suja, hers are much morethrilling.
She goes everywhere.
Also, she's like Amherst's mama, but she goes to places in
England and Italy where famouswriters are, and she does these
excursions every day.
She does the morning, similarto what I do, and then she's and
I'm just getting a little tooold for that I mean wonderful,
(40:06):
we've got the energy, just gofor it.
Uh, but mine I really like tojust stop, and then one day, one
day, we do an excursion.
So after the writing, um, Ithink we eat, and then we head
out.
We went to Ronda and we had awalking tour where we visited
places where Rilke was,hemingway, orson Welles, which I
(40:28):
didn't even know he was there,and so that was really beautiful
.
And then we finished up with aflamenco show oh nice, which got
me totally addicted to flamenco.
Yeah, and that's an oh toflamenco.
Yeah, and, and that's an oh.
But then this beautiful thing inother works, in other retreats
that I've done, we've invitedpeople to a salon in the evening
(40:49):
after dinner to see if they'dlike to read something that they
wrote during the day or talkabout things.
People kind of few people hereand there.
It was been nice, casual,getting together.
This one in spain every day arewe going to do salon tonight?
And they all gathered together.
We had great conversations.
Uh, one fellow was talkingabout this amazing documentary
(41:12):
that he's doing.
Had us riveted.
Um, just, it was so lovely.
You know would ask a questionhow do you determine what's
great in art?
How do you distinguish betweengood art and great art?
Oh, my God, and just you know,yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that was a lovely way towrap up the evening and it
surprised me.
(41:33):
I, you know, I offered it and,wow, it just took off.
People were like lining up toget to the salons.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Yeah, in my previous business we used to run
conferences and and workshops aswell, and we did a retreat at
one point and the thing that wealways you know, we would send
out the survey afterwards askingfor feedback and everything and
the thing that just came acrossevery year loud and clear, is
like, loved it, love, getting tosee everyone wish there was
more time to just chat and getto know each other.
(42:05):
So every year we would build inmore time for everyone to and we
would still get that feedback,like I honestly think I used to
joke we could just get rid ofthe workshops and the sessions
and stuff and we could just putthem all in a room and they
would be very happy for threedays just chatting, because
there was just this.
I think creating can be verysolitary at times, regardless of
(42:28):
what aspect of the arts you'rein, and to get to sit down with
other people and feed off oneanother, which is kind of what
it is.
You're bouncing ideas andyou're having those
conversations and you never knowwhat's going to come out of
them and the relationships thatyou develop in those kinds of
environments.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, that was beautiful to see, especially
last year, how these people wereforming friendships and going
on hikes together.
People just met and formingthese bonds was beautiful.
It's lovely.
What I did was I made a book,also bouncing off of Sue's idea.
I made a journal which hadbecause I didn't want to carry
(43:12):
like scads of paper with me.
I made books and gave as manyas I could, away, first of all
with all the poems that we werepotentially going to use and a
little bit about Spain, and thenthe back was lined so that they
could use it as a journal.
So they also had a keepsake andsomeone just told me this was a
(43:34):
year ago, over a year ago, andshe said you know, I still look
at that journal and I still useit.
Oh my God, that's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, no, that's wonderful.
Before we started recording,you and I were just talking.
I've been recording all daytoday and last week I was
recording a lot for upcomingepisodes for the season and one
of the things I had mentioned isthat this kind of underlying
theme has shown itself in allthese interviews I've done this
week, where connection andcommunity are what everyone is
(44:10):
talking about this year and whateverybody is searching for and
looking for.
And you mentioned that you feelthis is part of the pandemic,
which I absolutely agree, thatyou feel this is part of the
pandemic, which I absolutelyagree.
But I think this is justsomething that people are
craving, and to be able to helpthem and to facilitate those
(44:36):
kinds of get-togethers is reallyimportant for the creative
community.
Yeah, I just think it'ssomething we need to have more
of.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Quite frankly, yeah, yeah, the community is.
It's really important and, likeyou say, creating is usually
solitary.
Definitely the revision processis solitary, but it's it's so
wonderful to have a community,to have that support, and I
think I think it's new Like thisis.
(45:02):
You know what I was sayingabout the pandemic and
everything.
It was more about therecognition, just because we'd
been locked in and then it waslike you know what we need, this
more than ever, and it's tohave yeah, I don't, it's to have
, yeah, I don't have.
Just, it's just so important tome and I I love right, I love
(45:25):
all these people.
I'm my.
Most of these people I've nevermet in the flesh.
I always joke and say you know,one day I might get to see your
feet, because I have people inisrael.
I have people all over the US,east Coast, west Coast, england,
ireland, new Zealand.
It's crazy.
It's just wonderful to have acommunity.
(45:47):
It's virtual but it'sremarkable how intimate you can
get in a couple of hours lookingat somebody on screen.
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right.
I think when we initially cameout of the pandemic, it was kind
of like that bear coming out ofhibernation, you're bleary eyed
and you're looking around andyou're like, oh yeah, I remember
this.
And then, once we got out thereand we had kind of shook off
the hibernation, it was likewhere are my people?
I need my people, I need tohave that interaction and, yeah,
(46:23):
it's something that I thinkpeople are just craving like
crazy right now.
We also talk a lot on thispodcast about having multiple
streams of revenue asself-employed creatives, and I
think a lot of us don't realizehow creating these kinds of safe
(46:44):
environments because I thinkthat's important, making it safe
for our fellow creatives towork in, hone on their craft,
meet others doing same orsimilar things I don't think we
realize that there are peopleout there who are more than
willing to pay for that.
I don't think we realize thatthere are people out there who
are more than willing to pay forthat.
And, uh, how do you first ofall, do you struggle with that
(47:06):
as a writer like actuallyhosting these workshops and and
and retreats and charging forthem?
Is that something that you'recomfortable with, or is it
something you had to getcomfortable with?
How did that work for you?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, yeah, sort of asking for money is always a bit
awkward.
It's weird.
However, I think, because I seeand appreciate the value in
this work and and have paid forthis very work, happily that it
doesn't seem like such a stretch.
I don't charge a lot,especially especially since most
(47:43):
of my people are US, so when Isay you know it's $27, I said
what's that $4 for you?
But also, the thing is withwhat I do often is I have some
people that I know don't havemoney but they love to write,
(48:04):
and so if I have an empty seat,I will offer it to them and
that's something.
And, as a gesture towardsreconciliation, I always offer
seats to Indigenous people ifthey want to come.
But the rest of them, yeah,they can pay.
(48:28):
And I've been told, like withthe retreats, I've been told
well, you know, you don't chargeenough.
I'm like you know what?
I'm not trying to get rich.
I don't everything works out.
I think one of your questionsin your little blurb that you
sent me was you know what's yourbiggest mistake?
And I, I was like what you know, I make lots of mistakes, but,
but they always turn out, so Idon't.
(48:49):
I don't look back and see themas mistakes.
Either they open somethingabsolutely fresh and unexpected
up, or it just turns out andeverything's fine.
So I don't really see it asmistakes, and I can't remember
why I'm saying this to you.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
No, we were just talking about you know.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Money.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Money, yeah, and I think it's always weird for
creatives and I think we alwayskind of underestimate our value
or the value of what we give toother people or what we bring to
other people.
But the whole idea of likemistakes and you know, I don't
know quite where you were goingwith what your biggest mistake
was, but I'm assuming it wasmaybe along the lines of you
(49:30):
didn't charge enough in past,previous things.
But you know, when it comes to,like, the idea of mistakes and
we were just talking about thisin a previous interview that I
did today that these are thethings that bring you to where
you're supposed to be, likemaking those mistakes and I
(49:52):
don't even like the wordmistakes, they're just learning
opportunities.
That's how I like to frame itin my mind.
Like you know, you don't growif you don't learn, and you
don't learn unless you makemistakes.
It in my mind, like you know,you don't grow if you don't
learn and you don't learn unlessyou make mistakes.
So it all has to happen to getto the next step in your journey
.
So I think, yeah, but yes, Ithink a lot of creatives really
struggle with the whole idea.
(50:13):
But I think I think where I waskind of going with that is that
so many creatives whetherthey're writers, artists,
woodworkers, whatever it is thatthey might be doing don't
realize that doing these kindsof things is a very viable way
(50:35):
to earn additional revenue andstill be very immersed in what
it is that you love to do andsort of foster that love in
other people, and I think that'sactually very rewarding for a
lot of us when we actually stepout of our comfort zone and do
something like that.
Did you have to step out of acomfort zone to start doing
workshops and retreats, or wasthat something you just felt at
(50:58):
home with right away?
Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's hard to remember that, yeah, step out of my
comfort zone.
Well, yeah, in terms of thething is, in the beginning,
mostly it was people that I knewin the beginning, so it was
sort of like trial by friends,which is a good way to do it
sometimes, friends, which is agood way to do it sometimes.
(51:25):
So I, you know, I cut my teeth,I did, yeah, I did a few kind
of stumbled through, but mostlyI think it comes fairly natural
now and I guess it did.
It's hard to remember, it'sreally hard to remember, but
doing it now hard to remember,it's really hard to remember.
I've been doing it now.
I was certified in 2014, but II'd already started, uh, hosting
workshops in the met using themethod before I was actually
(51:48):
certified.
Um, yeah, giving a, definitely,letting people know that that's
what I was doing.
I wasn't 10, I was certifiedand maybe that's how I slid into
it.
The first retreat that I did onmy own, away from Sue was going
(52:10):
to Greece, but it was verysmall.
It was very small, there wereonly seven of us, I think, and
it was lovely.
It ended up being so divine.
I was pretty much a caretakerfor a couple of them.
(52:34):
So yeah, I don't know.
I guess maybe because I startedwith the retreat the first one
was small and then next wasSpain.
I tried to do one during thepandemic or just as it eased up
in Quebec.
And I had three people come, sothat was in Quebec, so we didn't
go, we didn't fly to anywhere.
(52:55):
I decided to go ahead with it.
I don't know, it's just every.
Everyone is different, everyoneis exciting and everyone, you
know you talk about beingrewarding, just, you know, being
able to write with people andlistening to what they have to
say.
And then, so I tell you when Iso, once the pandemic started
(53:18):
and I started to put up theseworkshops online.
Yeah, I was a little nervous inthe beginning to be doing so
many and doing them online, andI look at my lesson plans now
and I see how they've developed.
So it was going on for a whileand I think in the beginning I
was charging almost nothing but$15 or something, but I was
(53:40):
doing six, seven a week andafter a few weeks I looked at my
PayPal account and went, oh, oh, that's real money, that's an
income.
So it was a surprise.
And then, yeah, so from there Irealized, oh, this is, as you
say, a surprise.
(54:01):
And then, yeah, so from there Irealized, oh, this is, as you
say, another stream of incomeand it's uh, and I'm also a body
worker and because I couldn'tgive any massages during the
pandemic, that whole practicediminished and it worked out
great because then, even afterthe lockdown happened, I just
carried on and I didn't have togo back to giving 17, 20
sessions a week.
You know, I do maybe five orsix now, so it's perfect.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, it's a nice balance there that you've got
when it comes to I think anotherthing that kind of intimidates
people about potentially runningworkshops and retreats is how
do you organize them?
And when you became accredited,did they give you any kind of
instruction on how to like thelogistics of doing these things,
(54:48):
or is that something you havehad to figure out on your own,
Because I know from doing themmyself that's a lot of work and
it can be, especially whenyou're talking about
international destinations andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yeah Well, I did them illegally apparently.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
I think a lot of us have done things unintentionally
, illegally.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, it wasn't on purpose, because basically, what
I did, like when we went toCosta Rica and had I figured it
out, by Italy, I don't knowAnyway I was taking everybody's
money, I don't know, anyway, Iwas taking everybody's money
Except for their flights Ididn't do that.
I let them well, some of them Ihelped book, but anyway, mostly
(55:26):
I took the money for myself andfor Sue and for the retreat.
You can't do that, not unlessyou're a certified travel agent.
If you're Tico or whatever,okay, yeah, no.
If you're tico or whatever,okay, yeah, no.
Uh.
So now what I have to do is Ihave to get them to pay the
retreat themselves.
(55:48):
they pay, they pay me for myfacility it has to do
international whatever anyway,so I can be paid here for my
facilitation, but theneverything else has to be paid
to the center.
Oh, but yeah, figuring it out,I think it's relatively
(56:09):
uncomplicated.
I was really trying to geteverybody together.
Last year I booked Airbnbs foreverybody and paid for them.
Year I booked Airbnbs foreverybody and paid for them, and
then I think I can do that.
I don't know, I don't know ifthat's illegal, but anyway,
nobody's come after me yet, andso but it was a lot.
(56:33):
That was a lot of work tryingto organize everybody and try to
figure out their flights andeverything.
I'm not doing that this year,well, especially because I'm
having people coming fromvarious destinations and I have
no idea, Right, right, yeah, I'mjust telling them, you know, we
meet at the train station atsuch and such a time on such and
such a day, and they have tofigure it out, and people are
(56:55):
grown up, they can do that.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So it becomes a little um onerous when they do
that do you organize somethingwith the venue, like wherever it
is that you're going to bestaying, whether it's an airbnb,
a hotel, uh um, do you organizelike a package?
And then it's basically theycan, when they're booking, they
book directly and stay, thatthey are with your group or
(57:19):
whatever.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Oh, yeah, well, I'm trying to think with.
Each one is different.
Spain and Greece was the same.
That that I.
I was doing all the logisticswith the venue and then I would
tell them these people arecoming and some people would pay
in advance to the venue.
Some waited until they gotthere.
There they were fine with that.
(57:41):
But yeah, it's a, it's alwaysfor me.
I go to a place like a retreatcenter, not a hotel.
Okay, um, other people go tohotels and I think yeah, there's
so many ways you can do it, butthey hire tour companies and
I'm just doing it by myself,which is why I can keep my, I
can keep my fees low.
Um, yeah, so so I'm, I'm inconversation with the retreat
(58:06):
center and they're always lovely, whether it was in Italy or in
Greece or Spain.
They're just so generous and sothey will organize for us a
pickup bus person to pickeverybody up all at once, and
then I get them to organize atrip out.
(58:30):
We went to Rwanda this timewent to other places where we
have dinner and stuff.
So I ask them, where should wego?
Who should we go through?
Kind of thing.
So try to keep it as simple aspossible, but everybody, you
know everybody has to do theirown thing.
Speaker 1 (58:47):
Yeah, there are other people.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
I know Kerry tennis.
It does an Italian one where heincludes cooking lessons and
really cool stuff like that.
So yeah, I don't know might dothat.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
I think, too, for those listening, like we're
talking about don't know, mightdo that one time.
I think, too, for thoselistening, we're talking about a
destination multi-day retreathere, but you could still get
started with this, doing exactlywhat you do by hosting online
workshops or online meetups oncea week, or doing something
smaller in your local communityone or two nights a week where a
(59:20):
group of you meet.
I know, like my local library,there's a writer's group that
meets there.
There's also a fiber artistgroup that meets once a week to
do something similar.
Like.
There's a lot of different waysthat you can make something
like this.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (59:34):
Yeah, so it's.
You don't have to start with aninternational retreat.
Oh my God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
Let's take 15 people overseas.
No, start small and see if it'sa.
You don't have to start with aninternational retreat oh my God
.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
No.
Start small and see if it'ssomething that you enjoy first.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
But find a writing buddy if that's what you want to
do or, like you say, whateveryour art thing is.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Yeah, absolutely, because, yes, absolutely, have
you found I mean, we've kind oftouched on this and this is kind
of the last question I'll leaveyou with but have you found
that running these workshops andretreats has helped you develop
a vibrant community around you,like, do these people become
more than just your attendees?
Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
And you know, I've actually got to meet some of
them in person.
I live very rurally and I don'thave a community around me, so
I'm you know, my closest friendis 22 minutes away that way, the
other one's 25 minutes.
That way, I don't, yeah, I justdon't have a close community
physically close to me, but Ifeel like I think I said earlier
(01:00:43):
, I just feel such love for thepeople that show up and then
when we get to go away together,it's awesome, it's just yeah.
So that was that was reallylovely to meet some of the
people I've only met online.
To meet them in person.
Yeah, it's just, it's fabulous.
Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
I think that's a uniquely Canadian thing too.
We forget how much of thiscountry is rural.
If you live in downtown Torontoor downtown Vancouver or
downtown Montreal, you can finda writing group to join, but
when you're further out,workshop for purely selfish
reasons so that you can build acommunity around you.
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that.
(01:01:27):
So it has been lovely havingyou on the show today.
What is next for you?
You mentioned you've got aretreat going to Spain next year
and, yeah, what else have yougot in the?
Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
works well.
I have a finished novel that isout on submission.
So hopefully, hopefully, thislittle thing that's happening
will spark some interest with anagent or a publisher and take
me to the next, into the, thenext, the next push Um cause,
trust me, there's a lot of workum involved in launching and
(01:02:07):
promoting and marketing one'snovel, even if it is
traditionally published.
So, but I'm, I'm, I'm a littlebit more seasoned now than I was
Um, so that's happening and I'min the midst of I have a rough
draft of another novel.
That's a little bit more.
It's a departure for me, it's alittle more speculative.
(01:02:28):
Yeah, it's fun to write because, yeah, anyway, do you want me
to tell you?
Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Yeah, if you're ready to share a little bit about it,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Yeah, so it was inspired by Claire Sylvia's
memoir about receiving the heartand lungs of an 18-year-old
young man who died in amotorcycle crash and without
knowing that, as she wasrecovering she was craving
(01:03:00):
things like beer and she wantedto ride a motorcycle and she
wanted mcdonald's french fries,which was like what?
Apparently he died with somemcdonald's french fries in his
jacket.
Um, so anyway that I my headkind of exploded about well, who
(01:03:20):
, what?
I thought we were here, youknow, and so, and it goes, it's
much more.
Her memoir is much more thanjust that, because she gets his
name, his name comes to her, shedreams him, she lives with him.
So I did a whole.
What if?
what if the heart and lungs arefully conscious and they want
(01:03:43):
out.
Oh, so I've got.
Now I've got a 51 year oldwoman with a heart and lungs of
a 25 year old man who doesn'tdie in a motorcycle crash.
He dies in a plane crash, butanyway, yeah.
So it's told in two voices thevoice from the inside and the
voice on the outside.
Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
So I'm having a lot of fun, yeah, yeah.
Oh, that is kind of interesting.
I'll have to look out for thatand see if you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
Just got to finish it .
Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
So, for those who are listening, where can people
find you online if they wouldlike to learn more about your
retreats and what you do?
But also where can they findyour book?
Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
My website is writeyourwayinca and the book is
called what the Living Do.
You can find a link to get iton my website, but it's
available on Amazon both CA andcom, and I think other countries
(01:04:44):
.
It's available on Amazon bothCA and com, and I think other
countries.
It's on Amazon.
I have an audio book coming outI don't know when, but I did
get to choose the narrator,which was really exciting.
Oh, cool, yeah, and so I'mreally excited about that but
it's not out yet.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
It will be right, so everyone watch for it.
Um, what the living do is, aswe mentioned, nominee.
It's a finalist, not justnominated finalist, for the
canadian book club awards, whichI believe are awarded in
january.
So, yeah, so keep an eye outfor that.
But, uh, if you have a bookclub and you haven't read the
book, it might be one that youwant to pick up and give a whirl
with your group.
We will put links to all ofthis in the show notes, everyone
(01:05:24):
, so you don't need to worryabout spelling or any of that
kind of thing, so you'll be ableto click right through.
And yes, susan, it has beengreat having you on the show
this week.
I really enjoyed getting tochat with you.
Thank you so much, it's beengreat fun.
Thank you and for those of youlistening.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We will be back in two weekswith another brand new episode
(01:05:47):
and we will talk to you all then.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you so much for joiningus for the and she Looked Up
Creative Hour.
If you're looking for links orresources mentioned in this
episode, you can find detailedshow notes on our website at
andshelookedupcom.
While you're there, be sure tosign up for our newsletter for
(01:06:07):
more business tips, profiles ofinspiring Canadian creative
women and so much more.
If you enjoyed this episode,please be sure to subscribe to
the show via your podcast app ofchoice so you never miss an
episode.
We always love to hear from you, so we'd love it if you'd leave
us a review through iTunes orApple Podcasts.
Drop us a note via our websiteat andshelookedupcom or come say
(01:06:30):
hi on Instagram atandshelookedup.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next week.
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