013 - UAP Witness Series: Engineer Mike Pritchard (Deep-Dive Discussion) - The Anomalous Review

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:22):
Welcome to The Anomalous Review,the official podcast of the
Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies.
My name is Michael Glawson. I'm a philosopher of science and
technology and the host of the show.
This conversation is part of a special series on the anomalous
review that we're calling the UAP Witness series.
Let me tell you a bit about it. In this series, I interview SCU

(00:43):
members who've had their own personal encounters with truly
anomalous phenomena. These conversations are a new
format for us as an organization.
SCU leans toward a hard science approach to studying UAP.
That means using quantitative data that fits into
spreadsheets, and they can be analyzed with consistent
statistical methods. Things like the size, shape,

(01:05):
acoustical and kinetic properties of UAP.
That's the kind of data that SCUspecializes in.
Now, that's partly because of our skill set.
Most of our members are working scientists and engineers, so
we're used to using that kind ofdata and those sorts of
analytical tools. But this approach also serves as
a kind of hedge that keeps soberdiscussions about UAP from

(01:29):
falling into unstructured or even unreasonable speculation.
You probably know the kind of conversations that I mean.
We like structured investigations that employ the
tools that we're familiar with. But it would be a mistake to
think that we in SU focus on thehard data points simply because
we think that that's all there is to these phenomena.

(01:51):
Every one of those data points, after all, comes from an
encounter that was deeply and uniquely personal.
And these encounters are far richer, stranger, and more
complex than the numbers in the spreadsheet might ever suggest.
The tools of quantitative analysis just aren't great for
analyzing those unique experiential dimensions, though.

(02:12):
So for our analytic work at SCU,we usually just set the rich
elements of those stories aside.But shortly after we launched
this podcast, SCU leaders told me that there are several SCU
members who'd had their own encounters with UAP.
And after a few conversations, we decided let's invite those
members to tell their stories just as they experienced them,

(02:34):
along with all the questions andideas that those encounters gave
rise to. Encounters like these are, after
all, the source of our hard datapoints.
And inviting people to tell their stories here is a way of
showing what's on the other sideof the spreadsheets, the unique,
complex, deeply strange and often unsettling experiences
that push us to ask questions that data-driven analytical

(02:56):
methods aren't always fit to tackle.
But let me just say this clearlyacknowledging the strangeness of
these encounters and giving people space to tell them as
they live them is in no way a departure from SUS data-driven
scientific mission. But it's meant to complement
that mission by acknowledging the very elements of our source

(03:16):
material that often compelled usto want to do the scientific
work in the 1st place. This is an expression of the
conviction that doing good science means holding on to
intellectual humility before a reality that's under no
obligations to conform to our expectations or to our tools.
And that means facing reality asit comes, even and especially

(03:39):
when it challenges our frameworks.
We're putting out two versions of each interview in this
series. 1 is a long, unedited version that contains the whole
conversation. The other is a shorter version
where the guest just gives a basic overview of some of the
details of their encounter. This recording is a full length
conversation. In it we go into significant

(04:01):
depth not just about the guests encounter, but about how that
experience affected them personally and how they process
the experience both intellectually and spiritually.
These aren't quick stories. They're stories people have
lived, often for decades. We wanted to create a space
where they could be told in fullwithout an eruption or

(04:23):
oversimplification. And that's what this long
version is meant to provide. My guest in this interview is
Mike Pritchard. Mike started his career in
robotics and artificial intelligence by solving cutting
edge problems for NASA and the Department of Defense.
He did everything from using ultra wide band radar to detect
mines, to navigating GPS denied environments and applying

(04:47):
machine learning and lots of interesting and novel ways to
solve problems that he probably can't always talk about.
He's helped launch engineering teams from scratch, he's
supported clean tech and AI startups, and he was part of a
team that secured a $700 millionventure fund.
At one point, he's even earned Acommendation directly from NASA.
Up to the point of this interview, Mike served as a

(05:08):
Presidential Innovation Fellow at the US Digital Service
position that he has since movedon from.
I found Mike to be one of the most open and reflective guests
that I've had on this show, and I really enjoyed talking to him.
So I think you will really enjoythis conversation.
Here now is my conversation withMike Pritchard.
Do you want to just give me a rundown or like who you are and

(05:31):
what you do and and what your background is and whether it's
it has any relevance to the subject at all or if it you're
just a professional who also joined ACU?
Yeah, sure. So yeah, my background is very
mixed. So I, I have a background
actually in AI and robotics. So I started out of my career
like as a contractor for NASA and that's how I ended up moving

(05:53):
to the States, you know, a long time ago.
So I've done a lot of work in robotics.
So I have a mishmash back background of electrical
engineering and computer science.
So, and as part of my work, I'vedone a lot of work in what we
call UA VS back then it's a lot of like, you know, platform
integration, working with radars, lots of different sensor

(06:15):
technology. So I've had a lot of exposure
to, to doing interesting things in the electromagnetic spectrum,
stuff like that. Then I got into start-ups, I got
start up bugs. I spent a lot of my career in
start-ups of varying sizes. You know, I've been through IP
OS, I've been being through, youknow, being involved in selling

(06:37):
companies to private equity. So kind of being through the
ringer and then right now that that that works strangely led me
to the government. So I ended up getting into a
couple of interesting programs in the government that are
geared towards trying to bring private sector knowledge into
the government to kind of help Dr. innovation within the
government, you know, long before, you know, the current

(06:58):
stuff's going on. So, so yeah, so I've been in and
out of government and then probably like 4-4 years total in
the government at a pretty high level.
So right now I'm actually, so I'm in what's called the Senior
Executive Service. So and so and, and my role right
now is leading engineering at Social Security because I'm
really helping to look at the entire engineering architecture

(07:23):
of everything that Social Security does and trying to, you
know, try to basically move it forward, you know, fix,
modernize, whatever you want to call it.
But yeah, that's the general background.
Yeah, it's a pretty mix. Been all over the place.
What's your academic background?So you studied engineering?
Yeah, so I have a bachelor's in actually cybernetics and control

(07:46):
engineering from Reading, Reading University in the UK.
Cybernetics and control engineering is actually
electrical engineering, computerscience with a focus on
information theory and mobile robotics actually was my, my, my
interest. And then from there, I did AI,
did a master's in artificial intelligence at Edinburgh
University, and that's what led me to my work at US.

(08:11):
Yeah, so. Did you come straight to the US
or? Yeah, I, no, actually, no, I did
not. I actually, I did a year.
I worked for British Aerospace in London.
And then I then I came to the US, you know, classic story.
I met a girl and followed her back to the US and.
Yeah, before I knew it, yeah. So working for NASA, I mean, he

(08:34):
he can't turn that down. So.
Yeah. So are you in Colorado?
Is that what I remember? So I, I actually started out in
DC and then then I, I took a stint and actually spent four
years in Colorado working for a defense company out there in
Colorado Springs, then moved back to the DC area.

(08:57):
My wife's from the DC area. So yeah.
So did you have any interest in this subject prior to an
experience in it? Yes, so this is kind of the
weird thing about my experience in a strange way.
I'd never had an experience, least I don't think I had some.

(09:19):
I have some weird memories from childhood that I've thought
about but never really connectedthe dots.
And I don't even know to this day if those memories are are
weird and I can get into that. But no, I really, really, for
me, I probably got into the subject for a few years ago,

(09:41):
actually. And for me, it's just a puzzle.
It's just this mystery that I'vebeen hearing about.
And then I, and I just left the mystery of it, right?
And, and coming from a, a background like a, you know,
scientific engineering background, you know, to me,
it's just so interesting. You know, what are these things,
right? I I, you know, I thoroughly
believe and I have friends that have had experiences and, but

(10:05):
nothing specific got me interested.
But then being in government, I heard stories inside the
government which I can't talk about, but nothing specific.
You know, I'm not pulling, I don't know anything.
But you know, you hear rumours and it just, the subject just

(10:26):
got yeah, it was really compelling for me to to
understand it. And then I then I then I kind of
came across SEU. So I really wanted to kind of
find an organization that was approaching it from a scientific
perspective because like, we don't know what these things
are, right? But there's enough anecdotal
evidence. I think the anecdotal evidence
at this point is overwhelming. So I was pretty convinced

(10:48):
something is happening. What that is, I have no idea,
obviously, like anybody else. So just seems to be something we
should investigate because this could be something that's
natural, could be a naturally occurring, whatever it is,
right? Bull lightning, you know, even
bull lightning, we don't really know what bull lightning is to
this very day. And yeah, it could be an

(11:10):
indicator of some exciting new physics.
We just don't know, right? There's so much we don't know.
And that's, that's why I got into it.
And then, but then when I came into SCU, I really started to go
down the rabbit hole and I was actually looking at like my, my
philosophy has been I want to get to the data.
I'm a nuts and bolts guy, right?I want to look at the data.
What data do we have today that we can get hold of as a

(11:32):
civilian? And I was specifically looking
at hydrophones because I went onthis roundabout journey to try
and find data. And I found that you can get all
this data from hydrophones. So they're all over the coast,
different coasts. There's a lot, there's a lot of
them, right? The data is really high fidelity

(11:53):
data and you know, it's used formarine studying of marine life,
right? And specifically there's a whole
bunch of hydrophones around Catalina Island.
So you know, as as a well known UFO hotspot.
So I was studying that data and my hypothesis was that because

(12:14):
there's, I think there's from like at least 5 or 6 hydrophones
in that geographical area. And if you look at that data,
you know, there's weird things like something moving fast that
we could perhaps see that in thedata.
And I was actually really deep in looking at that at the time.
And that was what immediately preceded my experience, which

(12:36):
and and weirdly, I have just notgone back to it since.
You're not going back to the hydrophone data, you mean?
No, I have not. I, it just, Yeah, I, I, I don't
know why I was really deeply faster because, and to put it
this way, I had, I had to go outthere's, I think around about

(12:57):
six to seven terabytes of data, right.
And I downloaded, it took me a long time.
I had to write code to download the data.
It's all in Google Cloud, I think, but it's too slow to, to
work with. So I had to download all the
data. I had to buy some SSDs like hard
drives. I put some money towards this
and I just stopped. I've done some preliminary

(13:19):
studying of the data to see if it's just, there's anything
interesting there. And I think there might be, but
it's, it's for anyone who's everlooked at the data, it's really
noisy. Like it's trying to find
something in an acoustic environment like that.
It's, it's horrendous. But weirdly, going back to my
master's degree in AII actually was a big fan of bio bio

(13:39):
memetics, I guess. And I actually did a My thesis
was in echolocation, weirdly, because we're trying to reverse
engineer echolocation for applications in robotics.
Biomimetics, just for people whomight not know, is the
application of biological principles to engineering design

(13:59):
or or something like that, right?
Is that? Exactly.
Yeah. And what's amazing about bats is
that they they are able to do things that we don't really
understand how to do it. For example, like if you were to
suspend a wire like a series of wires, they can detect the wires
even though what we know from information theory, the wires
are too thin to to be observed by the bat, but somehow they are

(14:25):
doing some processing that they can see obstacles that are are
finer than they they we think they should be able to.
So. Yeah, it is.
It's it is really fascinating. And it's not magic, it's just
yeah. And so I was specifically
studying their prey capturing ability.
They have an amazing ability to very precisely control their
velocity. So when, if you have a little

(14:46):
muff lying around, they can likesend out the signal to the muff
and they can, they can control their velocity so that when
they, when they intercept the velocity that they're sorry,
intercept the muff, the relativevelocity is 0 at the point of
intercept. And I was studying that.
It's really pretty fast. It's amazing actually.
And, but, but like any biological system, the way they

(15:06):
do that is really simple. They've come up with a very,
very simple mechanism to do it. And anyway, so that was so I've
always, so I've done a lot of signal processing in my life is
something I find fascinating. So is the idea at at least with
bats is the hypothesis you're kind of gesturing towards that
they have some other stream of information that they're
processing or that they are processing their signal in some

(15:29):
way that we don't understand or,or we're misunderstanding the
sort of nimbleness or the thresholds of what they can
perceive? I mean, possibly it's.
I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, you got to be careful to
not go beyond the data, right? Not to come up with conclusions
that go beyond the data. And so I, I don't know, my guess

(15:50):
is that, I mean, when you, when you think about it, like we, we
do signal processing, right? And our, but our signal
processing is still way beyond, say what a dolphin can do or
what a bat can do because they've evolved these systems
for, you know, millennia, right,for millions of years.
So we're just not as good this than they are.

(16:12):
I I think fundamentally. So, you know, for example,
they're doing like they have tricks to sweep the, to sweep
the frequency range so that they, they, they do things that
are that, like that we didn't, we don't, don't really know
about. But like, now we go look at
like, say it's same thing with like cell phones, right?
Like, like we built a 5G mass today, right?

(16:32):
Not because we couldn't do that 20 years ago, because our
knowledge of signals and managing signals has got better
over time. So now we can now we can cram
more data per, you know, per, per Hertz right than than we
could 20 years ago. So I think it's the same thing.
It's just like a, you know, justtechnological advancement and
they're doing some very interesting things.

(16:54):
So anyway, that was why it's worth looking at.
And there's a whole, there's a whole bunch of other very
interesting use cases. Like the funniest one I remember
was I think it was crickets, which is something hilarious,
which is that I think it's the female cricket is what makes
that noise, right? Makes that characteristic noise.
Now the males will head towards a female, but the, the actual

(17:18):
wiring inside of the cricket is,is very, very basic.
They have like 222 ears, basically 2, you know, and then
they have almost like a direct connection to their legs.
So like the left ear points to the right leg and then the right
ear goes to the left leg and then they hit and then the the
like they have acoustic cavity that's like geared that's that's
like has a resonant frequency atthe frequency of the female.

(17:38):
So anyway, it creates a standingwave.
And then if it you know. So if it tickles the the neuron,
basically it fires just by. The leg.
So yeah, so basically, yeah. So basically if it hears the
sound to the left it it it firesto the right leg so that it
moves and then and like that andthen if it's straight ahead both
legs go. Forward.
It's like being remotely controlled by the female

(17:59):
Crickets, sort of. In in a way, and it probably
he's probably not even consciously aware of it.
It's just hard wired to go towards a female cricket.
That's just I mean this this waslike back in 1998, nineteen 99.
So the theory I don't know, but I remember that that was what
got me into biomedics in the 1stplace because it's just it's
just this fascinating, very simple approach to solve a

(18:22):
problem that's just super fascinating.
Yeah. And at least to this complicated
behavior that, yeah, that would seem more complicated than it
really is, but sure. Yeah.
Or so. We would assume that the
mechanisms behind it were like equally complicated.
There was some parity behind thecomplication of the mechanism
versus the complication or sophistication of the behavior

(18:43):
or something. But it.
Doesn't seem. Yeah, exactly.
And the same is true with the bats in a way.
The bats have just built. You're like, it's more
complicated, I think. But, you know, they have their,
you know, their brains have likecertain neural networks that
have evolved to do certain things that do very advanced
signal processing. Yeah.
And it's believed that humans have the ability to do

(19:04):
echolocation. Like we actually have that
neural machinery in US. It's just very latent.
And you can actually do, it's actually interesting because you
can like you can, you can try it.
If you're in a dark room and close, you close your eyes and
just like make a make a noise, you can't train yourself to
actually get a very rudimentary sense of like how far a wall

(19:27):
away is away or something like that.
So anyway. So you, you were interested in
that you came across this cache of hydrophone data, it was just
like publicly available. Yeah, it's publicly available.
There's a whole load. So I was, yeah, I was looking
for any data that's publicly available, satellite imagery,
whatever it is. And I just found that that that

(19:47):
is there's a huge trove of data.And I figured that there's so
much data that it can't, maybe it's not compromised or hasn't
been tweaked because it would behard to manipulate it to hide
anything. I don't know.
So that's where I landed and I will get back to it, I promise.
You seem perplexed by the fact that you haven't yet.

(20:08):
Sorry, one, one second go. For it you, you seem perplexed
by the fact that you haven't continued with it and that that
to me has a resonance with a detail of your story, which I'm
sure we'll get to, but I just want to make a note of of that.
Do you? Do you?
Are you perplexed at your own? I am I, I have lost interest in

(20:30):
studying this the topic and I'm trying to get it back like I
like previously I was so excited.
I was writing Python scripts andyou know, and all that kind of
stuff. And I was really, I have been
for years. And now I've just, yeah, it's
like, it's like that, that that drive is just gone.
And I'm trying to get it back. But I, yeah, I've not been
engaged in the community at all since then.

(20:51):
I'm still like, you know, tracking like reading Reddit
like everybody else. But yeah, I'm trying to get back
into it. And like, it's funny because
every time I sit down to do it, I, it's just, I just.
And there's nothing you know of that's doing that.
It's not like you've been jaded by the community or the news or
something, no. Nothing's nothing's happened.
I don't know what I, I like, honestly, I don't tribute this

(21:13):
to any kind of like crazy woo oranything.
I, I just, it's but I can't explain it.
It's weird. And I'm, I, I, I promise you I
will get back into it. But it's, yeah, it's even like,
so I spoke to Robert Powell about my story and because he,
he actually, you know, interviewed me as an
investigator. And so I have done something.

(21:34):
So I did, I, I after my experience, I, I was really
frustrated because the most frustrating thing about the
whole thing personally is that Ididn't get any data.
And that's what drives me crazy because the, the engineer in me

(21:55):
is like, I should have been putting all this data and I
didn't. And that drives, drives me
crazy. So I've been trying to go back
and look at it. I, I was looking at like
seismology data, like like, is it from USGS satellite imagery?
I even bought one line. I bought some commercial
satellite imagery off the location and I actually wrote

(22:17):
some, I wrote some code to actually go out and look at pull
satellite imagery from public sources so I can just put a lat
long in. And it was like just spit out
like what's available. And so I have done some work,
but it's all been focused on that event.
And you know, Long story short, I didn't, I found satellite
imagery like the morning of and the the evening, but the morning

(22:41):
off, sorry. And nothing around the time of
the event, which sucks. It does.
I'm sorry. It's it's a characteristic of
frustration. I mean, it's hard to get good
data on anything. So why wouldn't this?
Yeah, Why wouldn't this be the same?
So. So you were.
Let's get that, keep that story going from the hydrophonic data.
So you, you said that there was nothing in particular that got

(23:04):
you interested in the subject. But do you remember there being
a tipping point where you're like, I actually want to look
put my own time into this? Was there a year or or an event
that was going on around that? No, I don't.
I'm trying to think. I don't believe so.
I I just, yeah, I just slowly over time got interested in the

(23:25):
subject. I mean, you just hear more about
it in the media and you know, more and more and yeah, I've
just had a natural interest, butno event, nothing triggered that
the interest in my in my life. But the weird thing is going
back to my childhood, I have some weird memories in my
childhood that like I have weirdmemories of.

(23:46):
This is going to sound really weird, but multiple times I had,
there's a hot air balloon that went right over my house, like
literally like a foot or so overmy house.
And weirdly, I just, to me, thatjust seemed normal.
That happens to everybody, right?
And now looking back at it, Yeah, I know, right?
And now looking back at it, likeI've, I've read all of John

(24:08):
Mack's books, for example, right.
And then reading some of that stuff and people have had these
weird memories of something thatthat was a normal object but
just out of place, you know, like, like seeing a hot air
balloon over your house. But I, yeah, I have these
memories of these hot air balloons, like right over my
house when I was a kid. Like with the basket, I mean,

(24:29):
they, yeah. Like a basket.
Yeah. Now there are hot air balloons
in the area, so it's not like, that's like crazy, but it's just
like the proximity. It was just like, like crazy.
But that's it really. I don't otherwise.
Yeah, I don't, you know. Yeah, it's weird.
So I. But nothing, no, no, nothing

(24:50):
triggered it. Just I like a good mystery, like
like I study like I've got into Egyptology of late.
You know, I bought a couple of those vases that everyone should
be talking about and I I bought,I bought 2, I got 2.
They're alabaster. But I've got like a vases from
the allegedly from the first dynasty and it's perfect if you

(25:17):
put it. Like a Lidar scanner.
It's Oh yeah. Please show us.
Yeah, I'll go. I'll go get it.
Yeah, we'll be right back. My wife is just joking because
I'm just like carrying these things around.
She's like terrifying. So there's a, there's a 1.
I don't know if you can see it very well.
Is it kind of blurry there? Yeah, but I I get the Yeah, it
seems pretty. Yeah, pretty well made.

(25:41):
This one is, yeah. This is like if you if you feel
inside, it's a little rough inside, but on the outside it is
like just perfectly smooth. It is like there's no cool marks
on this. Nothing.
It's just and it's just perfect.It's also beautiful.

(26:03):
It's actually really beautiful and really thin, Yeah.
The look looks like it's, it's quite thin, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's like it's almost translucent, like you
were to put light in here. It's it's, yeah.
So like, I don't know how you'd make this today.
Like it's, it's, it's so thin. An alabaster is, you know, it's

(26:23):
a soft material. I don't know how you'd make that
without like being such a frustrating process because
every time you make a mistake, you know, you go to start a game
and it is just. And it's, you probably don't see
how beautiful it is, but yeah. And I can see like through the
light. It's yeah, it's translucent.
It's incredible. But that, so that was first
allegedly, according to the the archaeologists, it's the first

(26:47):
dynasty. I got this one too.
This one, this one is actually an example where it's much
rougher and you can see tool marks on it.
I can actually see the tool marks on it.
It's still fairly thin, but and it's actually broken, but I
mean, it's still incredible because it's, again, it's
translucent. And what's really fascinating

(27:08):
inside of it, you can see almostlike it's ripped inside, like
some tool went inside to carve it out.
And even like the tool marks youcan see on the outside, it does
look like it looks like it was machined.
But this one's not perfect, thisone.
Yeah. But I mean, they they weren't
expensive, weirdly. But so officially the official

(27:32):
report is there. They are 5000 years old, both of
those. And do you find that, do you
find it just totally implausiblethat like our, our technological
history of Egypt is, is right orsomething?
Do you have a an idea that you're kind of working towards
in your head about what may be the truth about the, the history

(27:52):
of, you know, technology situation?
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I don't, I mean, so recently I
went to the Met Museum with my kids and it meant me there was
tons of these in it, in it. And but what's what's in the in
the actual the like the atrium, they actually have one of the a

(28:13):
statue and it's made a die rite,I think.
And it's massive. It's the size of a small car,
right. And it's just beautiful,
actually beautiful. It's a of a Egyptian sat in a
chair. You know, the classic and you
look at it, I took a picture of it.
It is perfectly symmetric. It is like you cannot and it is
lawless. No machine model or something.

(28:34):
Yeah, they're almost like annoyingly almost kind of like
corny looking and they're so symmetrical, like they don't,
they lack something. Right.
They, they do, because it's likehuman, real humans are not
symmetric like that. And then you can see the crude
Egyptian hieroglyphics have beencarved into it, which are
clearly much cruder. You can see the tool marks, but

(28:55):
on the statue itself, there's notool mark, nothing.
The right, the right angles are perfect and and, but it's more
than that. Some of the the angles are
impossible, like like there's like overhangs and you can see
like the the muscles and you cansee the veins in the muscles.
It's like it's an amazing piece of work.
That's thyrite. I mean that's like harder than

(29:17):
steel. Like how I, so, I mean, I, it
blows my mind. Like I don't, I don't think
aliens did it, but a, but then there's no explanation.
Like there's, there is 0 explanation for that.
And like even this the, the, the, sorry, the vase that I
have, like, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure we could do

(29:40):
that today. We could make that today.
But I mean, I bought that for a few 100 bucks, right?
Weirdly, I think if you actuallymanufactured that, it's probably
going to cost you thousands of bucks.
Like to manufacture something like that, that like a material
like that, to be so thin. It it's pretty clear to me that

(30:01):
there's lost technology. Yes, there's, there's, there's
no, there's no way. And it's like the pyramids
themselves. It's like they, to me, they as
an engineer, it looks like a machine.
It's a, it's a machine. I, I, I, you know, there's,
there's nothing. There's no decoration inside of
it. There's no carvings.
There's no nothing. Nothing was found inside of

(30:23):
them. Yeah, it's a machine.
So to me, it's deeply fascinating.
I I, I think, well, I my guess is that as we start to look at
the Sahara, we're going to find more and more things, you know,
but but I love, this is the thing.
I love these kind of mysteries, right?
It's like, clearly is a mystery.And it kind of bugs me that the

(30:45):
mainstream doesn't take it seriously when the the hard
data, forget about the conclusions, but look at the
hard data. It just doesn't make sense.
Like like the the like that statue I was just talking about.
I don't know how you'd make thattoday.
I mean, there's, there's like a kind, there's a, a kind of

(31:06):
orthodox view that, well, you know, when you have an infinite
population of slaves and a lot of copper files and a lot of
time, you can do, you know, extraordinary things with it.
And I don't, I don't know at what point any evidence could
overthrow that interpretation. It just seems impervious to, to

(31:26):
evident, but I don't find it. I've often wondered how
engineers feel about those things cause archaeologists and
engineers are such different sets of competencies that I've
wondered, do engineers look at this stuff and think like
there's just no way this was made by copper files?
Yeah. Yeah, there's, there's no way.
And they look at it like the, the Sphinx, I mean, that's all

(31:48):
we know. That's all like geologists have
looked at the, the weathering onthe rock.
We know it's over 5000. Like the, the data point, the
data is very all the scientific data and like points to the same
conclusion that that the Egyptians found this stuff.
And in fact, they that's. What they say, Yeah.
That's what they. Say itself I mean exactly so so

(32:09):
like we're we choose to ignore what they themselves said and
and also the overwhelming data that we have you know I think
the official record is that a great pyramid was built in
something like 2020 thirty yearswhich when you do the math is
like is like the number of bricks the number of blocks in
it it's it's just there's no wayyou know it take a cathedral and

(32:30):
how long a cathedral took us to build like hundreds of years.
It's it's yeah it's like it's yeah, it would take them a long
time but then. But I love also these the, the
megalithic, you know, the sites that we have, like the, the
blocks that fit, you know, that fit together perfectly.
And like to me, that's clearly this giant mystery that's just

(32:51):
forgotten. And maybe it all connects.
Maybe it's all connected. But when you, when you think
about a civilization that like, if you look at what the data is
telling you, the data is tellingyou that a civilization existed
because they found 60,000 of these, these vases, right?
That are just mind bogglingly perfect.

(33:14):
That's an absurd number to find.Yeah, they were just cranking
them out at like enormous, you know, factory, Yeah, kind of
production. Yeah, just the economics of
that, like clearly that wasn't like some guy spending 20 years
in each one of them. That just doesn't.
The math doesn't add up. The math doesn't math, as my
kids would say. So to me, the evidence all
points to the fact that there was a much older civilization

(33:37):
that did exist and possibly around had a footprint all
around the world that's just gone.
And we have no no record of themexcept for these like megalithic
structures they've left behind from Peru to China to Japan to,
you know, Egypt, umm, that, you know, is it is at least 12,000
years old, if not probably more.Umm, and, and yeah.

(34:03):
And we have no, there's no data.And I almost feel like the
mainstream archaeology is tryingto almost hide this fact, right?
Like we, we, there's so much like we have maps that show the
South Pole on the maps before they, we, we knew about it.
And there's a lot of data that point the hints at this
forgotten chapter in human history.

(34:23):
But maybe all these things are connected because the society
that can make had had technologyadvanced enough to make a statue
in irate that's as symmetrical as we're as we we know they are
like down to like, you know, youknow, a fraction of the width of

(34:46):
the human hair imperfection, right, Like we can't do that.
So where did they go? You know, like if there was a
cataclysm, maybe maybe they leftand came back.
Maybe what we're seeing, I don'tknow, did.
One of these interests predate the other.
For you, the UAP is the sort of sort.
Of cool stuff yeah, but the Egyptology was more because I

(35:10):
was I had COVID went down a rabbit hole on YouTube.
But as an engineer it's like again it's like these these
mysteries. I think they cry out to
scientists and engineers becausethey because also because of my
start up background right because I'm looking at this
almost as a start up guy and thinking like, well crap if we

(35:34):
look at this thing how was this made and if you go with the
assumption that OK, this was made by a machine, let's just
let's just say that's my hypothesis, right.
I don't know if it's true or notright but you know I let's say
this is made by a machine now ifI were to make that machine,
what would it what would I even start with right And given how

(35:55):
like I mean if you you can't retell this but this is perfect
this is perfect and you got giant crystals in the material
the material is not in the much homogeneous material and it is
just perfect. So I don't even think you could
do this with like a titanium bit.
Like I feel like this would haveto be something we haven't

(36:17):
thought about. So maybe it's like an ultrasonic
tool bit or maybe it's maybe it's a laser.
Who the hell knows, right? But that makes you think like,
like going through that thought exercise, even if I'm totally
wrong, it could lead me to making a very interesting
invention, right. Because, you know, there are

(36:40):
the, in the old industry, by theway, there are drill bits that
use ultrasonics. They create, they use
ultrasonics. They create little tiny bubbles
and they're collapsing. Yeah.
And the cavitation. Cavitation.
Yeah. Super cavitation.
It's like welding that uses ultrasonics too and and
polishing all sorts of of things.
Yeah, so it's not like, so I think by going down that thought
exercise like, well, if I was tobuild the pyramids, how would I

(37:00):
do it? It it's I think it's worth doing
it. And I, I approached the UFO
subject the same way I'm trying to.
The way I'm thinking about it ishow would we do that?
And that may be the point, but maybe the whole point of the,
the whole, you know, situation. But anyway.

(37:22):
But yeah, you. Know, I, I have a similar sort
of way of thinking and as a philosopher of technology, I
think in terms of of technological systems.
And if I look at that base, I think, OK, well, what would I
need to make that base? But then also what would I need
to make the thing that made that?
And that's a, that's a really good point.
What? Infrastructure do you need like
do you need a power grid if you're if you're working with

(37:43):
ultrasonics, like what power is it and how do you get whatever,
you know, power source you need for that?
Is it like hydro? Can you like hydroelectrically
power ultrasonic? Is that kind of a mismatch of
tech technological system something or, you know, it
builds out, but you can only build out so far before you're
just totally speculating. But I'm I'm attracted to these
sorts of questions. So you, you had all those

(38:05):
interests, you got COVID, you you went down this rat hole.
And I guess these intensify. When did you have a personal
encounter with this? So, yeah, so this, so it was
March of last year. And so my son, me and my son
who's 14, we, we went skiing, went back to, I used to live in

(38:25):
Colorado, I mentioned, and we went out to Breckenridge.
We like to go out every couple of years.
My, my wife and my daughter decided to stay back and not
come with us. So it's just the boys trip,
right? So we, you know, we skied in
Breckenridge for, you know, for a week and we had a great time.
And then I then I thought, OK, last day we're going to drive to
where I used to live. I'm going to show my son, OK,
where I used to live. I used to live on Pikes Peak.

(38:48):
It's the town called Mountain Springs.
So I was like, I'll drive you there and there's a there's a
wolf sanctuary there. So we're going to go see that
and, you know, we'll have a goodtime.
So, so we've got up early and we're driving out of
Breckenridge, you know, and obviously not even thinking
about this kind of stuff. And so you drive out of
Breckenridge, the first, you know, you hit kind of a mountain

(39:09):
past the first one you had to get over.
So I'm heading, I guess which direction I'm heading, I'm
heading kind of South. So I'm not, I'm not driving
towards Denver down the Interstate.
I'm driving directly across the plains because it's beautiful.
So I'm driving up this mountain pass and then, you know, these
are zig zags, right? They're like really tough
switchbacks. So I'm driving around the last

(39:32):
one of the last switchbacks. And like, as you drive around
and switch back, your car is like like at a hell of an angle,
right? You're almost looking, looking
up. And as we came around, I, I, I
see this thing, I, and it's not that far away.
I saw this, it's this metallic object.
At first I thought it, it was like a water tower, right?

(39:54):
But I know I've, because I've been there so many times,
there's no interest. There's nothing built on top of
this, this Ridge that we're looking at, right?
Nothing there at all. And I'm like, that's a water
tower. But wait, I don't see a
connection to the ground. That's weird.
So I talked to my, you know, turned to my son and, and say,
Hey, do you see that? Is that really weird?
And he said, yeah, what is that?And he said the same thing.

(40:15):
Is it the water tower? No, no, it's not.
It's not connected to the ground.
And it was. So it's silver.
Oh, it's floating. Is that the idea of?
Floating. But it's it's so hard to explain
because it's so, you know, OK, so it's winter and there's snow
everywhere, there's a little bitof a wind and this thing is just
perfectly still and nothing elseis it?

(40:40):
It was just, it didn't look right.
It looked, it looked fundamentally wrong.
That doesn't make any sense. It just looked wrong.
So you, you looked at it and, and the weird thing is my son
didn't even see it. But when I pointed it out to
him, it's like, it's almost likeyou can't not see it anymore.
And so anyway, I came around nowwe're driving, so driving, you

(41:02):
know, parallel to it, I guess. And, and I slow right down.
I remember looking behind me, there's cars behind me and I
couldn't pull over because there's there's snow, because
snow plows being through and there's like a giant wall of
snow, right? And there's nowhere else to go
and there's, there's traffic. But anyway, I slow right down
and we're looking at it and it'slike, what the hell is that?

(41:23):
And it wasn't, it's hard. I can't tell how far away it
was. It looked like it was hovering
over a Ridge. It must have only it wasn't.
It was fairly close to the ground, but you could see the,
the, a gap between the trees, the top of the trees and this
object. And it was clearly nothing
between it and it was it was perfect.
It was AI would say it was a squat sphere.

(41:45):
It's what it looked like to me. I wouldn't say it was egg
shaped. It was more like a if you take a
a sphere and squish it a little bit, that's what the shape would
look like. And it was just perfect
reflective surface. There was no no markings,
nothing. Beans or welds or anything that
you could do. Nothing, nothing, no sign of
anything. It was like this pure object.

(42:08):
It looked so it looked like someone just painted it on the
sky. It was so weird and that's the
but the point it got really weird is is that I and then like
great, I'm going to stop. I'm going to like get my phone.
We're going to take you know, we're going to take some
pictures. Hell, I'm going to hike over to
this thing because it's probablyit didn't look that far away.

(42:30):
Like it's hard to guess because you've got no, it was so
perfect. You didn't you couldn't really
figure out how far away it was or how big it is because there's
no, there's no visual cues, justthat out, you know, to really go
on. But if I already guessed, I'd
say it's probably the size of the house and it was probably

(42:52):
not that far away. It was probably, you know,
quarter of a mile at most away. Now my son thinks it was
smaller. He, he said it's like maybe 5050
feet, 100 feet, something like that and a lot closer.
We did some work with Robert Robert Powell actually, it was
really interesting. He actually, we went on on, on
Google Street View and he, we, we were able to like through his

(43:16):
work, which is really cool. He kind of walked me through the
encounter and I was, and I was telling him how like how big it
was relative to like where it showed up in the, in the
windshield. And from that we were able to
get more of a clear sense of howfar it was away.
And from that actually it was, Ithink we came up with an
estimate of around 100 feet and not that far away, less than 1/4
of a mile away, because he, he went walk me through it because

(43:38):
the point at which I couldn't see it anymore, we're able to
get somewhat of a decent estimate of where it was and how
big it was. And, and yeah, but but the weird
thing is anyway, I, I was like, like, holy crap.
This is just like, I can't believe this is happening right
now, right? So I'm going to like, like, it's
so close. Like this is, you know, this is

(44:00):
what I dreamed of. Like, you know, this is amazing.
And so I wanted to, you know, stop, take a picture.
I was like, I don't care. I'm going to stop in the middle
of the road. I don't care.
And then it got weird because then I had this like suddenly I
get in my head, I'm like, we, wehave to be somewhere.
And that's it was it felt like astrong emotion.

(44:22):
So it's kind of hard to give it context.
It wasn't fear. There was, it was a sense of
like, you know, it's almost like, you know, you're late for
a meeting. It was that kind.
Of urgency or something? Yeah, yeah.
Like, I urgently had to be somewhere else.
And it was a really powerful, compelling feeling.
And my son had it too. And even though I'm looking at

(44:42):
this thing that's like, probablymost interesting thing that's
ever happened to me, I, I am like, oh, yeah, I got to be at
this wolf sanctuary or whatever,right?
And. Were you aware in that moment
that this is a weird feeling I'mhaving?
That this isn't like comporting with reality?
It's just no. But the weird thing is, so we we
drove, so we drove up to the pass and then I had to then I

(45:03):
started to think, OK, I'm going to turn around.
I'm going to start turning around.
And then the feeling came back. And then it's just, it was
weird. I had to lingering feeling all
day that something weird had happened to me.
It it, I can't explain it, it felt, it was a weird feeling

(45:25):
like I, I just had this like feeling of dread or something.
Like I felt like something traumatic had happened to me
even though I hadn't. But I had this weird thing
feeling hanging over over me allday and I just felt like I'm
just going to push it to the back of my mind and I just
forgot about it. I me and my son, we didn't talk
about it. We flew home, we didn't talk

(45:46):
about it. I didn't talk to my wife about
it when I got back. And this is the point she joked
to me that this is how she knowsthis really happened because she
knows I would have talked about this incessantly with her the
moment I got off the plane. But no, I didn't talk about it
until, I mean, this happened in March.
I didn't even talk about it until like June.

(46:09):
Were you aware that you weren't talking about it?
No. I, it was, I kind of, it's so
weird. I, it wasn't like I had
forgotten, like I remember this had happened, but I just didn't
want to talk about it and I don't know why.
And then it just suddenly felt like I could talk about it now.

(46:32):
Did you think about it at all inthat period?
Was it was it something that youcould privately sort of reflect
on, but you didn't want to talk about it, like literally talk
about it? Or was it something that you
didn't want to even talk to yourself about?
Yeah. It, it, it felt like the latter.
It felt like it's something I didn't want to acknowledge to
myself. It, it had the feeling of
something traumatic had happenedto me and I wanted to just not

(46:56):
think about it. That's what it felt like.
It it felt it, Yeah. Do you think it might have been
exactly what happened in the sense that like, it's traumatic
to experience something that is so at odds with your perception
and understanding of the world? Was it, do you think it really
was just emotionally and psychologically traumatic to see

(47:16):
something so strange? Or do you feel like the trauma
or the sort of what we're calling the trauma of it, is
this weird inappropriate layer that's being kind of pushed onto
the experience? I, I have wrestled with this
since this happened. I, I don't, I don't know.
I part of me is, is this is justa lizard brain.

(47:37):
You saw something that just doesn't compute like you have
because I, I can't really get over the wrongness of it like
that. That's like the only way I can
describe it. You see it, it just, it just
doesn't belong. I mean, that's the like I would
have thought you see like a spaceship or whatever.
And like, I get that. It's like it's a physical
object. OK, I don't know where it came

(47:59):
from, but it's real. This was just the wrongness of
it is what was. And I kind of wonder if that's
part of it. Like that is like your brain
just can't handle it. It's like you just, it's, you
don't have any reference point. I, I don't know.
But but then again, like I remember distinctly thinking to

(48:21):
stop and, and even saying to my son, we're going to, you know,
we're going to stop. And I remember, I remember
distinctly, I was looking to find somewhere to stop and
looked in the rearview mirror. There was a car behind me and
it's like right behind me and there's traffic and I'm like,
Dang it, how am I? How am I going to do this?
I remember having that thought and then then it was, you know,
now I got to get out of here andI don't think the, the guy in

(48:43):
the car behind saw it. I don't, I, I don't think anyone
else because there's other cars.It's Breckenridge, there's other
cars around. I don't think anyone else could
see it, which sounds really weird.
It's like even my son, my son didn't like, because bear in
mind, like when we go around that switch back, the car is
pointing up right. We are looking right at it and,

(49:05):
you know, looking, it's in our eyesight.
And he didn't see it. And I saw it.
But as soon as I pointed it out,it's like, yeah, it's obvious.
And he could not see it anymore.So I, I kind of wonder if it has
made me think that some people just don't see it because it's
so strange that you just don't see it because, you know, our
vision, you know, our, our brain, the way our brain put

(49:27):
together, what you see is, is complicated, right?
Yeah, there's this. There's this phenomenon called
inattentive blindness or something where if you, yeah,
fix something in a person's, youknow, field of visual experience
and maybe other fields of experience too, that if it's
just so a contextual and doesn'tdoesn't compute right, your
brain just kind of ignores it because it doesn't seem
relevant. It's like a relevant that's kind

(49:48):
of filtering things out. But something I guess cued you
in to see this when you talk. When you say that it felt so
wrong, do you? Does does its wrongness just
consist in it's physical appearance?
Or was there some other dimension of or aspect of it
that seemed wrong to you that isn't just reducible to the fact

(50:10):
that it was like really shiny and didn't have seams and and
was floating in the air or something?
Yeah, I, I don't know. That's it.
It's, I think part of it is the stillness of it.
Part of it is you're in a landscape that's moving.
There wasn't much wind. There was hardly any wind.
And it was like it was perfect day by the way, blue skies, sun

(50:31):
was out. The visibility was great.
It, it just was, it was so stationary that it was almost
like it was glued to the sky. Like you imagine if you had a
balloon or, or like if we made adrone or something like that.
There's always that little bit of motion.
This thing was like, no, it was like stationary, like, like it

(50:54):
was all, it just looked weird. And then yeah, just the, the
shape of it, not the shapes, right?
The, the, the perfectness of it was the other weird thing.
It, it was just a perfect kind of weird word to use.
I But it was, it wasn't just that it was seamless or no
markings, but it was like. Like geometrically perfect or

(51:16):
something. Yeah, it was like I thought, I
mean, since since I guess the block lifted from my head, I'll
have to think about it more clearly, like it's imprinted in
my head. I can see it.
I can see it. I close my eyes, I can see it.
I I think what I was looking at was a field effect.
I I don't think I was looking ata physical object.

(51:36):
I, I, I think was looking at theedge of the field is the only
conclusion I can come to it. There wasn't any distortions
around it. It, it was like, it was like an
object. It looked like a physical object
and there's no distortions around it at all, right.
So, you know, that to me is kindof weird.
Could you imagine? It's like some kind of weird

(51:57):
space-time disruption. Like it's like they're bending
space around it, right? There's no disruptions because
I'm looking for stuff like that.That's what's so weird about it.
It's like, no, this is just a like a like a metallic, you
know, near sphere just right there you.
Were calling it metallic becauseit was reflective, right?
That's the only. Yeah, yeah.

(52:18):
Did it have a? Did it seem to have a clear
boundary like it had a a surface?
Could you notice like parallax against the the sky behind it or
whatever was behind it? No, and I'm not even like
looking back at it. I'm not even sure if it was
reflective more than because it it because of the shape of it.
You couldn't see a clear reflection coming back.

(52:38):
So it it I think it I think it was reflective, but it could
also have been like distortions,like you imagine like a cloaking
field, right? Maybe you're bending light
around you and you get this weird effect.
But it had a clear, there was a clear line between the object
and its surroundings. Like it was a very clear, like

(52:59):
object, not object. You know, there was no weird.
Yeah. So it was.
It was odd for sure. That's interesting.
So I guess if you could, I mean if you could like change the
refractive index of a of the atmosphere in a very specific,
you know, segment of the atmosphere, you could get some
effect like that or something. Do you have other speculations

(53:20):
about what sort of field effect it might be?
I mean, you know about this in most people.
I yeah, I, I mean, I don't know,I thought a lot about it and I,
I think if you were, if you werebending light, like to do it to
that level of perfection is I think it's possible you could do
it, but the amount of energy that you'd need to do it would
be insane. So, yeah, I mean, because what

(53:44):
you could have been, what I could have been looking at was a
cloaking device. Like one looking at is it's
trying to cloak and it's just for whatever reason, I can see
it and other people can't. But another thought I had too,
was when you think about a wormhole, people always think of
a wormhole as a, you know, a disk in space.
But it'd be sphere, right? Yeah.
So the other thing I thought wasmaybe I'm looking at a wormhole.

(54:06):
The, you know, the the one part of a wormhole.
It could have been something natural.
It could have been a naturally occurring event.
I I had no idea. But.
That doesn't seem like it would explain the weird cognitive
effect that it had on you. I mean, I guess we are really
positing that there was some psychological effect that this
experience or this thing had on you, right?

(54:27):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't, it's hard.
I have a hard time with this. I really do.
Because like I said before, I'm a, you know, a nuts and bolts
guy, and I have a hard time. I have a really hard time with
this because I didn't believe inthe woo.
I didn't think I wanted to believe in the woo.

(54:47):
And it's hard to get past that now because I think it's that
feeling of trauma. Trauma's the wrong word.
That's too strong of a word. But I came away thinking this
was not a good experience. And my son didn't open up about
this for a while, right? And one of the things he told me

(55:09):
was he didn't want me going out looking for these things anymore
because he's afraid of them. And I, I definitely came away
feeling like this wasn't a good experience.
This wasn't like a, you know, yay.
You know, this was a they were telling me to go away, right?
They, they, you know, they wanted me away.

(55:32):
And this is yeah, this is how they do it.
Now. I can imagine that, like, could
you build a device like Havana Syndrome type of, you know, type
of effect where I could beam something into your head to kind
of tickle part of your brain to make you behave a certain way?
Yes, I think you could, you know, it would take amazing

(55:52):
accuracy and you know, whatever,but I think to make someone feel
like a primal like fear responseor something like that.
I I, you know, I believe that might be possible with the
machine, right? Sure.
Yeah, it sounds plausible. And there's all their their
effects. Like ultrasound seems to have
this effect on people. It just makes you feel bad or
like scared and you're not really sure why.

(56:15):
Yeah, so that's my my sense about particularly reading the
literature too. Like if the object I'm looking
at like it, it's either a physical metal object that's
hovering somehow, right? That would probably take a lot
of energy if it's some kind of field effect.
If it's like, if it's the generating some kind of field,

(56:37):
maybe it's electromagnetic fieldor doing something that gives
you this look of a bubble that, you know that could you make an
electromagnetic field with lightbounces off of it?
I mean, I don't think so, because I think that's not the
way it works. But but I mean, you could
probably make an electromagneticfield that distorts, you know,

(56:58):
light. We know that's possible.
So again, but that would take a huge amount of energy.
So any scenario I can think of involves a lot of energy, which
leads me to like, they don't, they don't want people close to
it because if you walk too closeto this thing, it's probably
going to be bad for your health.So the idea that these these
things myself, a perimeter defense around them to keep

(57:20):
stupid humans away from it so wedon't wonder up to it and burn
ourselves, It's very plausible. So that's kind of where I've
mentally gone because I think the alternative is so scary.
And, you know, all the other things are just simply my my
reaction to it, my psychologicalreaction to it.

(57:42):
But I can't escape the feeling that this was whatever happened
was like, is leaving a footprintof trauma behind.
Like it, it's, I'm a little scared of these things now, to
be honest with you. Like I, I, when I first talked
to my wife about it, it, it feltlike it, it felt like the kind

(58:04):
of thing where I am, I'm tellingyou about this traumatic thing
that happened to me in my childhood.
And I finally want to tell you about this thing.
I want to get off my chest. That's what it felt like to me.
It felt like I, I yeah, it it's weird.
It just it, it, yeah, there's some fear around it.
Like it, it just yeah. It did not leave a good feeling

(58:24):
in my head. Have you thought about talking
to a psychiatrist about this? Because it sounds like like a
genuinely interesting and maybe undocumented psychiatric
phenomenon where you say I have AI, have a trauma, but nothing
actually bad happened to me. You weren't.
You weren't harmed, you weren't threatened, there was no obvious

(58:46):
danger that you were in, but it had this profound psychological
negative effect on you. And I'm not sure we've even
documented cases of people having no traumas where nothing
really bad actually did, or eventhey didn't even perceive
anything bad. And you know, I have, it's
funny, I have thought about that, but I think I came to the
point where I don't want to know, but but I have read and

(59:09):
I'm talking to Robert Powell too.
He's talking about encounters that are similar.
So my experience is not unique. A lot of people have, well, I
wouldn't say a lot, but other people have had cases where they
have witnessed something and it's had this impact.
Like they they've they've, you know, pulled over, they're going
to take a picture. And then they didn't and they

(59:29):
just kind of went away because there's like overpowering fear
or some other emotion, right. So it's, you know, I know that
this is not unique. I'd be open to it, to be honest
with you. I would be open just for the, I
would say I'm kind of scared to do it personally, but for the
research, I would be interested.Now, I did try to piece together

(59:51):
the timing because I'm trying tokeep to the data, right?
I'm trying to keep very specificto the data of what happened.
And something I didn't put in mymy actual report, but I did talk
to Robert Powell about this was.OK, so the weird thing is that I
remember, like I said, when I tried to pull over and stop,
there was cars behind me at least.
Didn't you remember that? I remember it was like a Ford

(01:00:12):
Bronco or something like that behind me.
Now, when I got to the other side of the pass, there was no
traffic behind me. I don't remember there've been
any traffic and there's nowhere to pull over between there
because the pass. There's a parking lot at the
pass, but it's blocked by the snow and the snow plows, you
know, so now I don't know that'strue or not, Sorry.

(01:00:33):
I, I don't know how true that actually is because it's like,
it's a, it's like I, I can't prove that.
And, but I, so I went back and looked at like I bought gas on
the way out of Breckenridge. So I'm like, OK, trying to piece
this together, right? We got up early and I know we
went to the wolf sanctuary next,which is super cool.
And I got pictures at our time stamped so, and I know how long

(01:00:54):
it would take to get to those two places.
And you know, maybe that's plus or minus an hour, you know,
there. So I didn't, I didn't lose time.
And if I lost time, it would have been a small amount of
time. So I don't think anything
happened to me. But I don't know but I don't
think so, but. Oh I see, that's one of the

(01:01:18):
worries about maybe talking to the psychiatrist then it might
uncover. Oh, sorry, yeah.
I was thinking about like, yeah,like the hypnosis session to
find out, like to, you know, recover memories.
But yeah, no, I saw that. I, you know, I yeah.
I mean, maybe I, I, I, I think I've got past it now.

(01:01:39):
And now I now I am starting to get intense curiosity about it.
It's coming back. I do a lot.
Of if that happened, you said like a block sort of lifted and
then you felt like you could talk about it.
Was there an event or did it just kind of slowly lift?
It just seemed just seen that happen for me.
It was like late June for my son.
He didn't want to talk about it at all until a couple months

(01:02:02):
after that. And even now he does not like
talking about it. He yeah, but now he's now he's
better. But yeah, so yeah, it just and
it just, it's weird. It felt like a thing.
It felt like kind of explain it.It felt like something went
away, but it felt like like a weight in my head that was gone.

(01:02:24):
And yeah, so I, I it's weird. The whole thing's weird.
Like I said, I have a hard time.Yeah.
And, and like I said, I want to get back to researching this,
but. And I don't know if the reason
why I haven't been able to get back into the research is
because of the fear. Like, I, I don't know, these are
things we should mess with. I thought, you know, it's I, I

(01:02:49):
don't know, but that's stupid. That's that's stupid.
We should I we should totally study these things.
But anyway, anyway, so yeah, that's.
So, OK, so let's let's give thistimeline straight so you have
the experience you when did you talk to Robert?
Did you report this like new fork or something or and was
that yeah, I this block lifted? Yeah, after I talked to my wife,

(01:03:11):
I reported it to new because after I spoke to her, I thought
to myself, you know, I'm going to have to write this down.
I'm going to document this just to myself.
I'm going to write down everything I can remember just
because I want to get straight, I mean, like I've had car
accidents before and I do the same thing.
Like I try to document everything.
So I didn't, I didn't do that until afterwards.

(01:03:32):
And I think I spoke to Robert like, I don't know, like it
wasn't too long ago, maybe a month or so ago, I can't
remember. So now I can talk about freely.
I don't feel any, any, any weirdness about talking about
it. But yeah, but June, I definitely
remember it was June. And like late June was when I
talked to my wife about it. And but when I first, when I had

(01:03:53):
that conversation with her, it, it was emotional.
It wasn't like I'm talking to you now.
It was like, I need to tell you about this thing that happened
and I haven't talked to you about it.
And it was a weird thing. I don't know how to like, I
can't, I don't know. I need help processing this
event. It was kind of, yeah.
How did how did she respond to that?

(01:04:14):
She has a background in psychology.
So she the, the, the thing that struck her was, I mean, she
believed me, but the thing that really struck her was me not
telling her straight away. And then my, you know, she
talked to my son and, you know, he, he, you know, talked to her

(01:04:34):
as well about it. But although, like I said, he
wasn't comfortable talking aboutit at that point, he was very
much like just confirming it. But yeah, it was.
Yeah, it was. But she believed it because of
that. Weird.
Because you probably get depression.
I talk a lot. I'm a talker.
So that's very out of character for me to not talk about

(01:04:57):
something big that happened, youknow, So.
Yeah. It certainly seems to be
worrying that you wouldn't have told your wife about something
that was emotionally, yeah, significant.
And I and I, yeah, I can't explain it.
It's just weird. Yeah.
Do you think, do you think that if I'm still trying to

(01:05:17):
understand like the nature of the, I don't want to call it
repression, but the the sort of block that was on your mind at a
certain point. So if if in the interim between
when this event happened and before you say the block lifted,
if someone had asked you point blank, have you had a a kind of
weird traumatic experience that you're not talking to yourself

(01:05:39):
or anybody else about, would youhave been able to know the
answer was yes? It's an interesting question.
I I don't know, I because this word, it's not like I didn't
remember it. It was more like I was person.
I was, I was repressing it. So I think my answer would be to

(01:06:03):
them is no. Not because I don't believe, not
because that's the truth. I would have told them no
because I don't want to talk about it.
Oh, you would have just lied to him, Yeah.
I just lied to them, yeah. But you would have known that
you were lying. You would have.
Yes, not. Exactly what you were talking,
what you were refressing. I think so, but I mean, it never
came up because, you know, it's not something someone asks you

(01:06:25):
like, hey, did you see a UFO on your ski trip?
Yeah, no, but you didn't even, you don't remember having
moments where you're like, God, why am I not talking to anybody
about this? Like why is this thing that
happened coming out? It it was weird.
Yeah, I was I the best way is like a wait it it's I've not had

(01:06:50):
a traumatic thing really. I mean, I've had like bad things
happen, but nothing like I wouldsay is crazy traumatic.
So it's really hard for me to have a reference frame.
I would, but I would imagine that and thinking about it like
I have, right, I would imagine this is like something that it's
something really bad and something very traumatic had
happened to you, right, And you just haven't been able to
process it yet. You might just want to push it

(01:07:14):
to the back of your mind and, and just not think about, choose
not to think about it and choosenot to just yeah, that was kind
of think what it that's kind of what it felt like to me.
Like I, I knew it had happened, I just hadn't.
I think I needed time to processit I guess.
Yeah, that that gets to the heart of what I was wondering.
Did you know that that it had happened sort of a memory issue

(01:07:36):
too? Or was it just a kind of like
emotionally not ready to do this?
Does this burn into my memory? Yeah.
Just from the number of people I've talked to for this show and
and personally who've had strange experiences, I'm struck
by the like profound psychological and existential
effects that the parents have onpeople.
And they don't always seem like in your case, they don't seem

(01:07:59):
the effect doesn't seem proportionate or or of a kind
with the experience most of the time so outsized relative to
what people experience that thatstrikes me.
I thought like I, I should have been psychologically prepared
for it because I've been researching this topic.

(01:08:20):
You know, I, I would say that's probably a 95 percent, 90%
belief in that these things are real.
Not sure yet, but you know, pretty much there.
I've seen tons of witness, read tons of witness reports, seen
tons of pictures. And yeah, I was not prepared at
all. And that's I, that's the thing
that really gets me. I'm angry at myself.

(01:08:41):
I am actually very angry at myself because I'm like, I like
I, you know, I'm a dork, right? So I, so I have like a little
pocket spectrum analyzer, right?So, you know, and I have, you
know, I, my daughter is like, she went through a phase where
she was big into ghosts. And so we had like the, I have
a, because, you know, I still dabble on electronics.

(01:09:02):
I have like, you know, a field reader, stuff like that.
So I, I carry these things around them.
So because I don't know. So it's just fun.
And yeah, that's why it just bugs me.
I'm like, I, I should have been,I should have taken data because
I think these days the video data is pointless, you know, and

(01:09:23):
they, they have AI. But you know, I, I, I just
didn't, I wasn't ready. So there psychologically and,
and now I'm just angry at myselfthat I didn't take any nothing.
You know it. Doesn't seem like you would have
been able to like just whatever state that you were in with that
experience. It's not like you could have
just turned around with your pocket analyzer and.

(01:09:44):
Yeah, and that's what scares me.I'd actually, outside of my
experience, I, I, I am kind of scared of these things now
because I mean, OK, I can, I cansay like where I'm at mentally
from a data perspective, I know what I saw, right?
I don't care if people believe me or not.
I don't, I mean, I don't care. I'm not, not in it for that.

(01:10:05):
But I know like what I saw was very real.
Like now I'm at 100% like these things are very real and I don't
know why they're here. I don't even know what it is
now, the psychological effect. I still to this day don't know
if it's real or not. I don't know if that was
something like my like a reaction to what I saw, like

(01:10:27):
the, you know, the lizard brain trying to process it or whether
that was a real thing. I mean, I, I leaned towards that
was a real thing because it's, it's just the data is telling me
that this seemed more than then because I'm, I'm not a super
emotional guy. I don't react very strongly to
things. So that I've never had that kind

(01:10:47):
of reaction to anything in my entire life.
And so that was, that was very out of character for me.
And you know, as my wife also, you know, said too.
But so that leads me to the conclusion that whatever these
things are, they do have the ability to manipulate us.

(01:11:10):
You said that you were you were like alleged to the you you
reversed to the woo aspects of it for you now and like how do
you define woo in in the way that you're say that you're?
Not part of that way of thinking.
It's an interesting question. I since then, like I said, I
haven't really got back into looking at analyzing data and I
will and I, I am in, I think I'mgetting circling back to that.

(01:11:35):
I mean, as an aside, I did wonder if I had this account.
This this this encounter happened because I was looking.
Into it. Yeah, I, I have had that thought
because I was really deep into that, right.
So I, I felt like I need to get back to it just in case there's
something interesting in that data.
I, I don't know, that's the whole crazy thing.
But yeah, now like I look at thewoo differently for sure.

(01:11:59):
I don't, it's not like I didn't believe people before because I
feel like you have this corpus of people and this is a common
theme you hear time and time again and, and you just can't
believe all these people are lying, right?
There's, there's, there's somethings going on, right?
But I, I, this carries some of it or, you know, or think it's

(01:12:21):
probably still technological in nature.
But, and, and now I, I still think it's technological in
nature, but I, I wonder about the intention behind it.
You know, I, I like my personal encounter.
I, I think because you could bear in mind this thing is in

(01:12:41):
Breckenridge, right? It's not like this is the, you
know, in and out in the boondocks, right?
There's thousands of people should have seen this.
And I, I went to new forklifted reports and nobody else reported
this. Nobody else reported that.
There was this report a couple days after, I think that was in
Colorado Springs or something that was very similar to what I
saw. And that's it.

(01:13:02):
So this thing either was only there for a fraction of a second
or was only visible for a fraction of a second, or just
most people don't see it, don't see it.
And that makes you think, well, if they can, if there's a way
for them to manipulate us, maybethat's part of it.
Maybe they they can just make usnot see them, or who knows,

(01:13:25):
right? It, it, it, But the, the
intention seems to be to hide, right, and not be observed, you
know, like it's, it's hard to get get past, you know, that.
And that could be for a lot of reasons, but it's just, I think
the, the knowledge that you can be so easily manipulated kind of

(01:13:48):
pisses you off, right? And, and I feel angry about
that. I thought I put a lot of thought
into like, what could the mechanism be and how do you
defend yourself against it? Because you know, maybe this is
like literally you need to work in for a hat, right?
It is the electromagnetic effector is it something deeper?

(01:14:10):
And like, and again, I feel likewe need to be researching this,
like taking this very seriously,right?
You know, if there's, there's somany stories of people being
manipulated, data being manipulated, that there's,
there's something's going on. And I don't think you can use a
scientific method to study a thing that is actively trying to

(01:14:32):
not be studied, right. That's one of the glitches in
the scientific method. It presumes that everything
became is passive and and not not responsive to being studied.
But that might be the case. Yeah, exactly.
But yeah, so. You hypothesize about what these
things are. Where do you, where does your

(01:14:53):
mind kind of naturally go? Well, before I saw it, I, I just
assumed, OK, like, just do the math, right?
The probability of an alien civilization visiting us is very
high. You know, you know, maybe not
like we need to like today very low, but like in the grand
scheme of things, you know, we've been discovered, right?
Like, like our star type is not,is, is a very uncommon star

(01:15:16):
type, right? You can look at a metal line,
you know that this is a, A star system that has a high metal
content probably has rocky worlds, right?
Like we just know this from the work we've done and someone
who's much more advanced, they know we're here probably within
100 light year bubble easily, ifnot, you know, not more.
So probability wise, they're they're here or they've been

(01:15:38):
here at some point if they exist.
But I I thought, OK, what I would see would be like classic
sci-fi trope would see like a spaceship.
And I can understand that spaceship with little creatures
that come out from another another planet.
To me, that doesn't seem like I would have ontological shock
about that because like, for sure, that's that's just, let's
just hope they're friendly. What I saw was so far beyond

(01:16:01):
that that I don't I don't know it.
It's kind of undone a lot of what I thought.
And in a way that still makes sense because any technology,
you know, as they say, any technology specifically
sufficiently advanced will look like magic to us.
And that's probably the case here, but it like just when I'm

(01:16:23):
thinking about how would I make that like I, I can I in how puts
off has said this like this. It may not be that our physics
can't explain it. It's just our engineering can't
expect like we don't like the physics.
We can't explain this with physics, right?
We it's plausible that we could build something like that, but

(01:16:43):
our engineering is way, way, way, way behind.
There's no way we could really build it.
But what I saw, I don't know what it was.
I can't even tell you if this is, this was a metallic, was
this a spaceship or was it some kind of weird bubble or
something? I, I don't know.
It's it kind of blew my mind. I, I, I you're looking at

(01:17:04):
something and you don't know what it is.
I don't even have that. Conversation you use use the
term they. I think you maybe not even that
right. Well, you said they they don't
want to go near it or something,but I think that kind of reveals
something about how many you naturally think about it.
Do you still if I asked you likeexplicitly what's your best
theory? Does it include a they that's
like a conscious group entity that lives on the planet

(01:17:27):
somewhere else or? I I, yeah, there's definitely
extrapolating from the data for sure.
But yeah, I, I, I, I think when you throw everything together
with the mental effects, with what I'm seeing, it's, it's hard
not to imagine. That's technological.
That is technology that is way beyond us, but it's
technological. So there has to be a day in my

(01:17:50):
to be honest, like that's it's, I don't know how else, how else
you can explain it. It's too precise to be natural.
And yeah, no, it was my someone made that.
What it is. It's hard to imagine, but could
be looking at distortion in space-time.
I could have been looking at a metal object.

(01:18:12):
And if it was metal, the abilityto make something so perfect is
just blows your mind. Like the technology to do that.
I mean, imagine how hard it is to build, build a, a, a metal
sphere and keep it clean, right?But you fly around for a little
bit, it's going to get dirty. This thing was not dirty.
It was like, you know, it probably came out of the factory

(01:18:32):
looking like that. It was gleaming perfect, no
windows done nothing on it. It's just it's hard to explain.
Do you put your experience in with the sort of like taxonomy
of other UAP stories and, and say like, well, I can kind of
piece together like what I experienced is sort of like when
a person sees a, you know, I don't know, a normal flying

(01:18:55):
saucer. Is that the same kind of thing?
Or do you think of your experience is kind of like
qualitatively different in part of its own category of you don't
know really what it is? It is, it is different.
Yeah, it's not what I expected from what I've read from the
lore. You know, it's like you you see
disc shaped objects, but they they do they're very obviously
physical objects, right. They are like this is a this is

(01:19:17):
a craft. Maybe Lockheed made it, maybe
maybe an aliens made it, but it's a craft identifiably a
thing, an object. And then, you know, black
triangles and the you know, plasma, the the bulls, right?
That that's, you know, plasma ball, whatever the hell they
are. Yeah, this is different.
I've not read about, I have not read or seen any reports like

(01:19:39):
what I saw. It was different than anything
that I've ever read about or or knew.
About yeah, but I can imagine, Ican imagine that if if a non
engineer had seen it personally,like no physics interests at
all, they would have just said it.
I saw a metal round thing and itjust looked weird, you know,
like not everything. The conceptual vocabulary to

(01:20:02):
say, well, it looked weird in this qualitative way that our
physics maybe can't explain or something.
Yeah, no, that's a good point. I hadn't actually, I had never
thought about that. I mean, I put it in the category
of like I had like metal spheres.
People keep seeing metal spheres.
I've seen video of the metal. I'm sure you know, you've seen
seen video of these metallic spheres.
The weird thing about those videos is those metallic
spheres, they don't look as perfect as this, did they?

(01:20:24):
They have kind of a almost like a grayish like they.
Look like metal. They look very much like metal.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't.
I don't doubt it when I'm looking at it that it's a metal
thing, whereas you sound like the metal is sort of the best
approximation of the descriptionyou can give.
Yeah, I mean, it would if it wasmetal, it'd be so highly
polished that because even if, like if, if we were to create an

(01:20:47):
object that wasn't, it's not perfectly spherical, right?
If we were to create that, there'd be some kind of weird
blemishes or some kind of like, you know, if you look at a big,
a big mirror, you see like weird, you know, artifacts where
like the mirrors not perfectly flat.
So you get this and you know what I mean?
It's like. Yeah.
Nothing like that. It was like like, yeah, it was
just perfect. Umm, yeah, I yeah, weird.

(01:21:11):
So I've not, but like you're like you said, I'm sure.
I mean, I'm sure other people have seen some.
I mean, like I said, there was areport that was similar.
But in the report it was described as a metallic sphere.
And they saw lights. I think they're, they're it was
in Colorado Springs. And I think they, yeah, they
said they saw lights. I didn't see any lights.
But my, my report, my, my incident was in the middle of

(01:21:32):
the day, like morning. So yeah.
Have you had any subsequent experiences or even if they
weren't of a no, Yeah. I was kind of dreading and also
kind of hoping I would because I'm like, I'm ready.
I am ready for you now. I'm going to like I got, you
know, I I I don't know how I'm going to fight off the mental

(01:21:53):
effects, but I feel like I'm ready.
But no, nothing since not that I'm aware of.
Yeah, not being. Yeah.
One, one question I like to ask people and it seems sort of far
afield, but I the more I I get into this, the less I think it's
far field is. Do you have any sort of
spiritual practice? Are you a religion spiritual

(01:22:15):
person? I'm not.
But I, I, I think I'm, I am slightly spiritual like I do,
you know, I, I used to be, I grew up Christian and I still
have a lingering, A lingering faith, I guess, OK.
But I, I think it's over over time that's morphed more into a
sense of like there is a higher level of something.

(01:22:37):
I just don't know what it is. So yeah, a little bit, but you
know, yeah. I find it interesting that I, I
talked to a lot of nuts and bolts people or people who
would, who would say they're nuts and bolts people and, and
are explicitly known as that. And I would have assumed that
they're all just in this headspace of these, these are

(01:22:59):
technological objects. We're going to figure out how
they're engineered and what physics principles lie behind
them and who's doing it. And that's just the end of it.
But there are there's some people who who are in this
space. So that's the work that they do
explicitly. But then when I talk to them
privately, they're like, Oh yeah, I see spirits all the
time. And.
Yeah. Or or or they or they they

(01:23:21):
situate these technological phenomena within a larger
framework of I guess what we would call spirituality, even if
that's kind of a, a lame term for it.
Do you do you try to theorize about these beyond the sort of
engineering and physical stuff? Interestingly, since my cancer,
I have thought a lot about consciousness and because I

(01:23:45):
think it it. So this is probably going a bit
to a Anyway, I'll take a step back.
So, you know, I thought to myself, OK, if I were to make a
machine to have this impact on someone, like I'm trying to,
maybe I'd use, I'd beam a microwave at someone, radio wave
at someone's head, tickle that little part of your brain.

(01:24:06):
But then I'm like, I'm in a metal box, I'm in a car, right?
Like, yeah, there's windows, butlike my car is in relative
motion compared to the siding. And then also, you know, like I
said in my, my report, like I got to the past and I couldn't
see this thing anymore. And that's why I wanted to turn
around. And then I had that thing that,
that feeling happen again. So then I think to myself, well,

(01:24:29):
maybe maybe the, this is not done through RF means they're
not using some kind of radio frequency.
Maybe it's like some kind of like weird quantum effect, which
they got me down this rabbit hole of like consciousness and
you know, because there is growing evidence that there are
quantum, quantum effects in the human brain, right?

(01:24:49):
Roger Pedro's work on this seemsvery compelling.
Yeah. Exactly.
And then, you know, you read so much about like remote viewing
and you know, and other things like that and you know, it's the
data's definitely very, you know, not conclusive, but there
is, there is some, there's definitely hints that there is

(01:25:12):
something there. What that there is is
subjective, but definitely has made me think a lot more about
consciousness and whether there's something akin to like a
consciousness field or somethinglike that where you can tap into
it. Because you know, you have that

(01:25:34):
time. You have that feeling where
someone's watching you and you turn around and there really is
someone watching you. You know, obviously, you know,
all the times when you do that and there's no one watching you,
you forget about. But but that that has got me
down that rabbit hole thinking about that because I thinking
also about how you defend yourself against this as well.
Because like, I'm like part of that.

(01:25:54):
I want to get ready for this thenext time if it ever happens
again. And I have, I forget where it
was, but I have read some, therehave been some attempts to
particularly remote viewing to think about how you block this,
right. How do you defend against it?
And I don't think anyone's ever come up with anything.
They they've done experiments where people have been in like a
Faraday cage. So which is kind of hinting that

(01:26:15):
whatever, if there is something there, it is not electromagnetic
in nature, perhaps. And then so I don't know that
leads you down in all kinds of rabbit holes because when you
think about quantum mechanics, like the world that we perceive
is definitely not the the reality.
Oh, sure. Yeah, it's a construct.

(01:26:36):
Yeah. Our brain is constructing this
reality. So yeah, I know it definitely
has made me think a lot about about that.
And when you read like particularly like John Mack and,
and the, you know, the work thathe did and all the, the, you
know, the encounters people talkabout, there is a, there is a
theme in there of mental manipulation, right?

(01:26:58):
And yeah, I definitely makes youthink.
And then when you tie that back in with like some robot things
like Havana syndrome, stuff likethat, I, I, I can't help but
think there's a link there. And I don't, I don't think like
Havana syndrome is clearly a thing, right?
It, it, we know that there's, there's, there's, there's
effects on people that we can see an MRI scan.

(01:27:21):
As far as I know, no one's, there's never been a definitive
answer as to what's going on there.
I don't buy the line that this was done by Russia or whatever.
It's, it's, but you might know how hard that is to do that.
There's like, I know there's cases of Havana syndrome where
there's that there's someone's had something happened to them
and they can even go back and say it probably happened at this

(01:27:41):
time, but they were in a room orwhatever with a bunch of other
people that had no effect at all.
So, but imagine like, how would you, how would you target
someone in a building that you can't see?
Like it's like it's kind of beenimagined that that's yeah, I
just, I, I think there's a lot going on there that we don't

(01:28:02):
know about or not been told about.
I don't know. I don't know.
It must be simultaneously, I mean, for for you.
I know that it is for me simultaneously really
frustrating and also really thrilling to feel like you're
seated in front of this array ofmysteries that you sense there's
some connection like or or theory of like how Egyptians

(01:28:23):
manufactured their buildings doesn't seem right and our our
ideas about how consciousness work seem like they're kind of
half assed and not together well.
And. I'm not sure what these things
have to do with each other, but it feels like on the back end
somehow something connects with something.
But then you don't want to seem like a crazy person, like you're

(01:28:44):
just. Hypothesis.
Beyond the beta, but there's, yeah.
How do you do science without letting your gut kind of push
you in certain directions or or or think?
Yeah, no, exactly. And one of my pet hates is when
someone says, you know, extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof. It's like that is not in a
scientific method anywhere. It's it's and I do.

(01:29:09):
It does bug me that in least in my mind, these mysteries are
obviously mysteries, right? Why don't we take it seriously?
I I just don't I don't get it. And I think now like looking
back, I think probably a lot of paranormal is is probably part
of the same. It's all part of the same thing,

(01:29:29):
but we just don't study these things seriously.
We don't take it seriously and Idon't know why.
Like UFOs, Why would we not? Why is this not all hands on
deck to study these things? Agreed.
And I don't know the answer to that.
And like, you know, I work in government and I don't buy the,
you know, I, I buy there could be, you know, there could be

(01:29:50):
black programs, but I, I don't think there's this giant
conspiracy to hide this stuff. No, I agree.
I don't. Think there is.
Yeah. And I wonder if, based on my
account, there's something that doesn't want to be known about.
And like, if you go out and juststudy it, you come back, maybe
changed, I don't know. Yeah, it's weird.

(01:30:11):
But I don't sound like why as a society, are we ignoring this?
It seems to me that there's likeall these mundane reasons why it
like first, it's hard to get to study anything.
And most of the people who do have an interest who are like,
I, I think this is fascinating, already have a research program
and they're not trying to derailtheir research program and start
studying UFOs. And that's the problem.
There's all these like institutional incentives that

(01:30:33):
keep us away from it. And there's also problems of of
how to do science about a thing that you don't even have a good
hypothesis about. That's there too.
But it I agree, it doesn't seem to add up to to a totally
convincing explanation of why we're not like all just freaked
out by this because I'm kind of freaked out.
I think the most interesting thing.

(01:30:55):
I, I know and you know, I, I, like I said, my experience was
it, it didn't feel, it felt scary, right.
I feel, you know, still like, you know, this wasn't because it
wasn't a positive experience of my life, right, But I still come
away thinking to myself, well, the whatever this is, and I do,

(01:31:17):
you know, I probably do fundamentally believe it's a
they right, But they don't they're not hostile per SE,
because clearly they, you know, they're, you know, hanging
around Breckenridge in a in a something like what I saw, you
know, like there's nothing we can do about that.
There's nothing at all, you know, and and they're, you know,

(01:31:37):
they don't seem hostile in nature if if anything else looks
like they're studying us and they don't want us to get too
close to their, you know, their dangerous, you know, power
reactors or whatever. So I take comfort in that.
And but again, like, why don't we study this?
Like why, you know, even like from a start up perspective,
we're we're seeing amazing technology and by seeing it, we

(01:32:02):
can start to rule out a whole bunch of things like dead ends
that we may have gone down because we now we have evidence
I'd like you can see so. Interesting.
You're saying just for doing general science, we may be able
to eliminate, you know, researchprograms that would fail and and
just by the observations that wecan make about this stuff.
Yeah, exactly. Because if you imagine, OK, go

(01:32:23):
out and study, study this for real, right.
We, we, we can start to come up with a hypothesis for how these
crafts work and start to try to eliminate them, you know, by
using a hyper spectral sensors, looking for how light, you know,
reacts around these things. Like do they have magnetic
fields? Measure, make measurements of
the strength of these fields, like the frequencies of these
fields. You know, like there's it's just

(01:32:46):
to me, it's so crazy in that we're seeing advanced technology
that I'm sure, you know, the military is trying to reverse
engineer this or whatever, But like, where are the VCs, right?
Like it's like if you could reverse engineer any fraction of
this technology, you know, you're going to make so much
money out of it that it's just crazy.

(01:33:08):
And but yet we're not. And I don't I don't get that.
And there's other mysteries too,like megalithic stone
structures. You go look at these things and
then like that's 100 ton block that is perfectly mated to the
block next to it. How the hell did they do that?
But not only how did they do it?Why did they do it?
Because that doesn't make any like you don't build a building

(01:33:28):
out of 100 ton bricks, You make small bricks, right?
So like that was a culture that was so comfortable using stone,
a cutting stone and moving stone, but they were able to do
that. And do we, no one's studying it.
No one's like taking it seriously and it's yeah, it's
just it's infuriating. It really is.
As a as an engineer or a scientist, it's just super

(01:33:51):
infuriating. And the technology that we could
discover from this could, you know, change everything, right?
Well, zero point your. Capitalist tried to hire you and
said will you help us study how the ancient Europeans like have
made? Yeah, I mean, hell yeah.
I mean, like we and, and like wehave enough hints of, you know,

(01:34:14):
there's things like the Casimir effect, if you're familiar with
that, you know, that like we, we're now at a point where we,
we know that there are quantum fluctuations and we, we, we, you
know, we know that there is a potential to get energy from the
quantum, you know, quantum vacuum, right?
We just don't know how to do it yet.
But actually there are people that have been, there has been a

(01:34:37):
couple of people that that have legit managed to extract energy
from the field, but it's such a small amount.
Low amounts, yeah. So it's hard for the.
Auction system, right that we'veshown some tiny, tiny amount of
thrust from a from a system thisway, but it's just so miniscule.
Let's let's start right. There's no reason to think that

(01:34:57):
you couldn't, you know, up up that amount of extraction.
Yeah, like Tom, Dan Brown and all the work that he did.
And like you go on to YouTube, there's enough people.
I have actually built a asymmetric capacitor and it
works. Like, I mean, it's hard to
prove. Like it's miniscule, right?
And it's hard to prove, but there's enough there, there that

(01:35:20):
I don't understand why, why are we all studying the hell out of
that stuff? Because if this, it's not like
this is out out there, like it fits the theory.
Like we, we, you know, we. Yeah, like we know if we
manipulate the quantum vacuum that we can do interesting
things. It's not like ghosts where where
even if there's there was reallygood evidence for ghosts, we

(01:35:41):
don't even have a framework to understand what the hell they
can be to understand them. It's not like that.
It's like we do have a a physicsframework that understands how
these things could be possible and we have evidence that they
are in fact real and, you know, being practiced or something.
So weren't, weren't. Listening.
I, I, I know. And some of the stuff you would
describe it, it sounds like magic.

(01:36:02):
Like it's just like if you, you know, like, like if you like
all, all light that we know of comes from wiggling, wiggling an
electron, right? Like if you know, and then you
wiggle, wiggle an electron over here and then somehow this
electron over here starts to wiggle too.
And, but we don't know what happened in between.
We call it light, but it's like we don't know, you know, not

(01:36:24):
really. We have models.
So, yeah, there's so much to be discovered.
And by by seeing these things flying around, it just seems
like this is the maybe this is the whole point to stimulate our
thinking and to move us forward.I don't know.
But yeah, it's, it's but yeah, we're ignoring it.
And I don't get like the like the New Jersey drones, like,

(01:36:47):
like, yeah, 90% of these are probably false reports, but some
of them, not all of them. Like, why isn't there like
thousands of people out there, like observing the night sky?
I know there are some, but it's crazy.
But then more than that, like, where's the discussion about,
OK, what kind of sensors do we need to have?
Because what we don't, we don't need more video.

(01:37:07):
Like that's, you know, that's not useful.
It's, it's, it's, it's how we move the conversation forward,
right? Like, like I think a lot of
people are stuck in trying to prove that these things exist.
And I think, no, I screw that because who cares?
We should move to conversation towards what we want to do next.
And what is that? Is that reverse engineering
these things? Because that's where as an

(01:37:28):
engineer I'm at. Yeah, I, I, I think VCs that are
out there should be studying thehell out of these things.
And there's enough anecdotal data like like I, I thinking
through this stuff. OK, So if you start with the
hypothesis that these things have very, very powerful
electromagnetic fields, we should see them on the on the,

(01:37:51):
on the power grid, they should show up.
You should see surges on the power grid.
Just because they're exciting the electric grid in some way.
Yep. And so we have this huge network
of cables that are could, could detect the motion of these
things and the data is being collected, but just we can't,
you know, it's it's helped by utility companies.
So anyway, it's yeah, yeah, it'sinteresting.

(01:38:13):
Is there anything else that anything else to your experience
or things that you've been thinking about that you wanted
to throw into the into the conversation before?
We wrap up. I mean, I think there's so much,
right? I, I, again, it's like coming
from AVC, like I, well, coming from a start up background and
also engineering background. I just want, you know, I would

(01:38:37):
love personally to just to be involved in trying to make some
practical technology out of thisthat we can use and thinking
about how do we do that. And the answer is we need better
data. So we just got to go and get it.
Have you thought about just starting your own?

(01:38:58):
You know, start up to do this. Yeah, I, I have.
And there's a bunch of people already doing it and I felt like
we're already a little bit fragmented.
But you know, I have thought about that.
Maybe that's the next step because, but I've been trying to
think about it in terms of like what we already have, like using
the power grids, put data from the power grids, stuff like
that. Yeah.

(01:39:19):
And, and people are looking at infrasound too.
There are some weird things thathappen in infrasound that might
be worth looking at. Stuff like that.
Irrelevant to UAP. Maybe.
But yeah, we detect, we detect stuff on the infrasound that
like, like, what the hell is that?
So, yeah, but what do you think about like if, you know, if

(01:39:41):
you're traveling at Mach 20 through the atmosphere, like
maybe you, you don't disturb theatmosphere that much, but maybe
a little bit just, you know, andand we should better detect this
stuff. So, yeah, well, this has been a
fascinating conversation, Mike. Thank you for talking to us and
and for talking so personally about the dimensions of this.

(01:40:04):
There's a lot of people who havehad experiences who just want to
talk about the. You know what we call the nuts
and bolts dimensions of it. But I'm, I'm really grateful
that you went beyond that. Well, thanks.
And I really hope this helped other people too, because I, I,
I, I didn't realize how, how powerful this is
psychologically. And I think there's a lot, a lot
of people out there that probably need help.
This is a very profound effect on people.

(01:40:28):
So, yeah. So yeah.
Glad to help you for being here man, and I'll look forward to
talking to you again sometime. Awesome.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Thanks a lot. Have a good night.
The Anomalous Review is a project of the Scientific
Coalition for UAP Studies. It's hosted and produced by me,
Michael Blossom and edited by Kelly Michelle.
Our theme song was written and performed by Telma Chrisanti.

(01:40:50):
Communication and PR work is by Preston Dykes.
Our advisory team includes Jennifer Roach, Robert Powell,
Richard Hoffman, Joshua Pearson and Larry Hancock.
To find out more about SU, checkout Explorer scu.org.

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013 - UAP Witness Series: Engineer Mike Pritchard (Deep-Dive Discussion)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}013 - UAP Witness Series: Engineer Mike Pritchard (Deep-Dive Discussion)