May 14, 2021 • 26 mins
In this episode we hear from one of Wisconsin’s leading experts in best practices in special education and transition supports for student with disabilities. Dr. Nancy Molfenter is currently an Assistant Director of Student Services in Wisconsin’s 2nd largest school district as well as a special education professor at the University of Wisconsin. Nancy is someone who is not afraid to roll up her sleeves! She has more than 20 years of experience working as as a special educator, transition coordinator, and a leader in statewide and national organizations supporting inclusion and employment first. She is passionate about supporting all students with disabilities to reach their potential.
Hear what Nancy to say about three key ways to close the achievement gap for students with disabilities, the biggest challenges for school districts and how parents and IEP teams can find common ground, even when there are disagreements.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the arc experience, featuring the
stories of self advocates withdisabilities and their families
from around Wisconsin.
Be inspired.
Take action.
And now for today's episode,
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast.
I'm your host Lisa Pew with thearc Wisconsin.
And you know that here in thispodcast, we strive to bring you
the best.
So today, Dr.
Nancy multicenter is our guest.
She is one of Wisconsin'sleading experts in best
practices in special educationand transition supports for
(00:44):
students with disabilities.
She is currently an assistantdirector of student services in
Wisconsin, second largest schooldistrict, while also continuing
her work as a special educationprofessor at the university of
Wisconsin.
Nancy is someone who is notafraid to roll up her sleeves.
She has more than 20 years ofexperience working as a special
(01:08):
educator transition coordinatorand a leader in statewide and
national organizationssupporting inclusion and
employment.
First, she is passionate aboutsupporting all students with
disabilities to reach theirpotential.
What an introduction, Nancy.
We're so glad to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Thank you.
Yes.
That, that is quite anintroduction.
It's yeah, thank you very muchfor that.
I appreciate it.
And I hope I can live up to thehype.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
We are honored to have your expertise, you know,
special education and transitionsupports for students with
disabilities, such an importanttopic, um, for people who care
about disability issues, youknow, I'm sure that over those
20 years of your experience, I'msure you've seen a range of
changes arrange in quality andthe special education field.
(01:56):
Um, I was following an articleyou're recently quoted in saying
that in the Madison metropolitanschool district, where you work,
the impact of insufficientfunding for students with
disabilities is palpable.
What, what did you mean by that?
And what are you seeing thesedays?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
So we have, and this has always been the case since
I've been in the field, youknow, students with a very wide
range of needs service needs.
And so our challenge in, in, inour, in the Madison school
district and in any schooldistrict is always making sure
that we dedicate the resourceswhere those are needed and, and
(02:35):
it shifts and, and a schooldistrict like Madison has many
schools, smaller schooldistricts, um, sometimes have
fewer buildings, but still needsthat are consistently changing
from year to year for, for theirstudents.
And so we have a funding formulaand that works, um, reasonably
(02:57):
well, um, some of the time, butsome of the time we have to go
outside of that funding formulaand think about, well, what
other resources do we have?
What can we really do to supportthe student to be included with
their peers and how can we makethat work for this particular
student and their family, um,and the school.
And so in those cases, theschool district, what I see is
(03:19):
that a school district likeMadison, that's very large and
other large school districts, um, have more flexibility, um, and
smaller school districts mayhave less.
And so that's something that Isaw when I was working at the
department of publicinstruction.
Um, but even in Madison, wereally have to be consistently
thinking about, about how to dothat.
And I think with more fundingand, and maybe tech to ensure
(03:43):
that we kind of have, I thinkthat what we'd like to do in the
field and in certainly in ourschool district is have
resources in place.
So that we're ready for anyshifts that come along rather
than kind of chasing the shiftsto meet students' needs, being
prepared would be a better placeto be.
(04:03):
So in terms of additionalfunding, that's, I would think,
you know, let's get ahead and beprepared for what student needs
may come up and arise, becausewe always know that that's going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Sure.
And I'm sure, you know, what, aswe're talking right now, you've
probably been following thestate budget and there's a lot
of people think that there isn'tenough funding for special
education statewide.
Um, do you, I mean, clearly youthink funding is a major
challenge for school districtsin Wisconsin.
Are there other kind ofchallenges that you're
(04:36):
identifying currently forstudents with disabilities?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
So no surprise to anyone listening to this
podcast, but the current greatchallenge facing the Madison
school district.
And I believe all others, notonly in Wisconsin is that we've
had a year plus of students, notall being in person full time.
(05:03):
And two, you know, nobody couldhave predicted or prevented the
fact that we needed to have aclosure in order to reduce the
spread of COVID-19.
And then this year during theschool year, large school
districts have had to reallybalance health and safety with
how, how much time studentsspend in person in our school
(05:28):
district.
We just recently had all gradesreturn and even that is not full
time for all students.
And so, and some families andstudents have chosen to remain
virtual for their safety.
We completely understand that,but what it means is that
special education servicedelivery has not happened in the
(05:48):
same way over the past 12 to 14months for many students that it
typically would have.
And that also means that somestudents did not make the
expected progress towards thegeneral education curriculum
standards or toward their annualIEP goals.
And so we are in the process ofsetting up additional services
(06:10):
for many students with specialeducation needs.
And so our challenge is how dowe provide those additional
services in a way that helpsstudents to get back to the
progress that they should havemade without the pandemic and
COVID-19 and virtual serviceshappening.
(06:31):
And one of our great challengeswith that is that it's very hard
to provide all of thoseadditional services in inclusive
settings, because we're lookingat afterschool time and summer
time.
And so that's, that's been areally difficult thing for me
personally, as I help plan forour high schools in Madison to
provide additional services thatsome of them are going to be in
(06:55):
more segregated settings than wewant.
And, and that's, it's reallyhard, but trying to help
students catch up basically isthe bottom line challenged.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Right.
Right.
I know you are a passionateadvocate for inclusion, so I'm
sure that's difficult and I'msure staffing challenges as
well, plan to current challengesfor school districts.
I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yes.
Well, I can tell you that herein Madison, we are offering some
incentives, additional pay forstaff to provide those services
over the summer for students.
And so that's, that is somethingthat we are definitely spending
some resources to, to put inplace.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, thank goodness you work at the university and
are training up young, specialeducation teachers.
We need more of those for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One of my very favorite things to do.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I know you mentioned, um, students, um, kind of
falling behind, or maybe notmaking progress in the last
year, but that, that reallyisn't new news.
When we look at the achievementgaps for students with
disabilities, we really, and youworked previously at the
department of publicinstruction.
We don't seem to be making kindof a meaningful progress in
(08:10):
closing that achievement gap,like, um, and maybe you have a
different opinion on that, butI'm curious, like what do you
think really needs to change inorder to begin closing that?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah, sure.
So I'm going to start off myanswer, circling back to our
discussion about increasinginclusive opportunities for
students with disabilities thatresearch tells us, um, and my
personal experience tells me andmy many of my colleagues feel
(08:46):
the same and have seen the samethat if we can provide inclusive
opportunities from an early ageand all the way through high
school for students to be ingeneral education classes,
alongside their peers who don'thave disabilities, students get
exposed to all the same content.
Students can have annual IEPgoals that align with the
(09:08):
general education standards andstudents can learn from their
peers, those social andemotional skills that we also
know are so critical to outcomesand to succeeding in school and
beyond school in employment andlife.
And so I, you know, I, I am justa firm believer, as you said in
continuing to think about how dowe have our students with
(09:30):
disabilities regardless of theintensity of their support
needs.
How do we have them side-by-sidewith their peers in general
education classes all the waythrough now, a bit of a more
pragmatic topic that I know theMadison school district is
tackling in earnest at thispoint is reading achievement for
(09:51):
students by the time they leavethird grade.
So another very evidence-basedpractice and topic is that we
know that if the student leavesthird grade well behind grade
level, in terms of readingability that that impacts their
outcomes in the end and aseducators, no one would argue
(10:13):
that that would be the case.
We, we do need to always beconsidering assistive technology
options for students who haveintellectual intellectual
disabilities and other potentialbarriers to becoming independent
readers.
But the majority of our studentsshould be leaving third grade at
(10:33):
or above grade level in terms oftheir reading fluency and their
comprehension skills.
And so that's just, uh,something that we need to tackle
and I believe is a universalneed to tackle because that
allows students then to remainincluded through their years, if
they are able to participate inthe learning activities and have
(10:59):
access to the content verbally,as well as in writing and in
other formats, one more piecethat goes hand in hand with
inclusion and readingachievement, math achievement is
important too.
So I don't want to discountthat, but we, we in the
education field, we know a lotabout universal design for
(11:21):
learning.
We know a lot about scaffoldedor tiered interventions, having
interventions that are universalfor the whole school, having
interventions that are a bitmore intensive for students who
need those and then veryintensive for a smaller number
of students.
So we know what to do, but wedon't always get the work done.
(11:44):
So I think to continue to focuson known evidence-based
practices of inclusion,universal design for learning,
and the three tieredintervention process are things
that we just need to continue tofocus on.
And we need to remember ineducation, this is a hard thing
about education.
We never really have it donebecause you can have a school
(12:05):
that's absolutely thriving andachievement outcomes are very
positive for students withdisabilities.
And, um, you know, two yearslater, if there's turnover or
things change that can go awaywithout a constant kind of
effort and focus.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, those are, that's really good insight on
the achievement gap and areas tofocus.
I think don't, you see, youknow, in your statewide work, a
lot of schools do struggle with,um, inclusion and understanding
how to do it and how to do itwell.
And, um, I know that at thedepartment of public
instruction, they've been tryingto provide that sort of
(12:42):
technical assistance todistricts, but that seems to be
a continued challenge,
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Right?
Well, it never, we're neverreally done.
And I think that having thatmindset is critical.
I just think for those of us whoare leaders in the state leaders
in districts and, and even forall of our teachers, general
education teachers as well,principals, you know, everyone
who works with, with students,um, it's the students, of course
(13:11):
who have special educationservices are general education
students first.
So we have to remember thateveryone in a school building
and school district is involvedin the process and we just have
to have the mindset that we're,we really are never done and
that a student may have afantastic year.
Um, and then the following yearmight not be as, as good.
(13:32):
So we can't say, Oh, thatstudent is great.
Oh, you know, they're just goingto keep, keep coasting along.
Um, and same thing for a school,same thing for a grade level.
Like we, we just, our work isnever done and that's how it's
supposed to be.
We have to continue to circleback on, okay, what's working
here, what's not working hereand be good problem solvers and
maintain that mindset of, youknow, what worked last year may
(13:56):
not work this year.
That's okay.
We try something new back
Speaker 2 (14:00):
To the drawing board.
Continuous.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Um, going back to funding a little bit, you know,
I mentioned that the legislatureis debating the state budget and
that budget had included somepretty large increases for
special education.
I'm wondering in terms of, youknow, some of those achievement
gap areas that you just talkedabout, like where, how would you
invest that money?
Like what, how do you see itbenefiting students if you were
(14:26):
able to get an increase?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Sure.
So I, I do, I think we wouldwant to look at staffing
patterns.
So I do believe that, um, more,more people, more staff, more
teachers, more paraprofessionals, isn't always the answer, but I
think we would want to look atstaffing patterns.
(14:50):
We would want to look at payscales.
Um, you know, w we're I thinkall school districts are
continuously looking at payscales and what is going to
attract the very best people tothe field and to stay with the
district and to stay at schoolswith our students and build
those positive relationshipsover time with families and
students.
(15:11):
Um, and then I also think thatinvesting in communication
strategies, which goes hand inhand with professional
development for teachers andother staff, how are we
messaging out?
How are we creating materialsthat are going to be the most
helpful, so that teachers dounderstand how do I meaningfully
(15:33):
include students with veryintensive support needs in
classes?
How do I support that?
How do I support teachers to getstudents involved in learning
activities?
Um, you know, I no surprise toyou or probably any of your
listeners, but it's really not apositive outcome for students or
positive experience for studentsif they're in a classroom, but
(15:55):
they're not involved in thelearning activities.
So that's the, the, we want todig deeper in terms of the level
of professional developmentaround the tiered interventions
and universal design forlearning, but also how to modify
materials.
We really want to, I think getdown to the really basics of
like the, how tos, how do wemake this happen?
(16:17):
And I think that investing someresources in whether it be
expert trainers, whether it bedevelopment of materials, um,
those are the pieces that Iwould want to take a look at.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know, I'm listening to you as a parent, as
a parent of a student, a formerstudent with a disability she's
now out of the public schools.
And, um, I'm sure that whatyou're saying is like music to
the ears of a lot of parents,because you know, a lot of times
parents struggle with theirrelationship with the school
district.
I'm sure you've seen thatthroughout your career, um, when
(16:52):
they feel their child's needs,aren't being met, um, it often
causes great difficulties.
I'm wondering what your adviceis to parents about their
relationship with the school.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Aye,
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Have regular conversations with teachers and
school staff about this topic,not from the parents side, but
from the school staff side.
But I think that the advice isthe same and, and advice as a
strong word.
I'll just say from myperspective, what I've seen can
be really helpful for studentsand their services and outcomes
(17:33):
is I share with school staffthat we always want to remember
the positive intent.
That's behind questions thatparents ask and parents I've
never met a parent ever whodoesn't want the very best for
their child.
I'm a parent myself, and I'veworked with many parents and
(17:56):
families over the years, nevermet a parent who doesn't want
the very best for their, theirchild.
And in the same vein, I haven'tmet any teachers who say that
their goal is to have a studenthave less than optimal outcomes.
And so I really believe thatteams, IEP teams, teachers, and
(18:18):
school staff and parents allhave the ultimate same goal,
which is that the student has apositive educational experience
that the student learns that thestudent meets their IEP goals,
that the student has friends.
And so how to make that happenis something that sometimes team
members differ on.
So when there are differences ofopinion or when a parent or
(18:42):
family is struggling with what'shappening for a child, that
school, I would say a reallygood approach is to ask for an
IEP team meeting.
And that can happen at any time,not doesn't have to wait for the
annual and to say, talk to startout with something like I really
want to meet, because I want totalk about our goals for my
(19:04):
student, not just annual IEPgoals, but goals in general and
make sure we're on the same pageand think about how we can work
together to support my child, toachieve the learning outcomes
that we want to see themachieve, to, um, learn the
social skills, to make friends,to be involved in
extracurricular activities, andthen ultimately get to where
(19:27):
they want to be after highschool.
And so I think that it's, and asa parent, you know, I've
struggled with this myself thatwhen your child is, is seemingly
not doing well.
Um, it's, it's a very emotionalmoment and that's, that's okay.
It's understandable.
(19:47):
Um, and, and that it's okay toexpress that, but I would also
just say that I know very fewteachers and case managers who
don't want to talk about thatand don't want to listen and
don't want to help make thingsbetter for a child.
I would also say that that's oneof the reasons that my position
exists in that only the Madisonschool district, but every
(20:10):
district has a director ofpeople services, a director of
special education, and thatperson can and should be an
ally.
So if you need to reach out andbring that person on board, that
can be really helpful as well.
Um, sometimes it takes a fewdiscussions and a few, a few
(20:30):
conversations, um, to, to get toa place of mutual understanding
w school staff wanna understandwhere you're coming from.
So help them to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Sure.
I like your reminder thateveryone really does have the
best of intentions and the samegoal of student success.
So just to remind yourself ofthat and, and that it's okay to
call an IEP meeting.
I think that's good advice forparents too, you know, Nancy
throughout your career, you havea great deal of experience in
(21:02):
transition supports thosesupports for youth ages 18 to
21.
And I know you've seen a lot ofgood practices and not so good
practices.
I'm wondering what you see inthe future of quality transition
programs, um, for youth withdisabilities, what would you
like to see happen?
I guess,
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yes.
What I would love to see is Iwould love to see, um, this
connects to the, you know, thebudget questions on the funding
questions is I would love to seeevery school, every high school
have at least one transitioncoordinator, um, who gets to
know the VOC rehab system, thedivision of vocational
(21:47):
rehabilitation in Wisconsin, butevery state has a rehab, um, a
Voke rehab system that workswith schools.
So I'd love to see every highschool have someone who can
become an expert in therelationships with vocational
rehabilitation and therelationships with adult service
providers and relationships withemployers and prospective
(22:08):
employers in the community sothat students could have work
experiences earlier.
I have, um, use the termevidence-based practice a couple
of times in this podcast, butone evidence-based practice.
That's very clear in transitionservices for students with
disabilities is early workexperience.
(22:29):
And so thinking about thosesummers, even after ninth and
10th grade summers and weekendsfor students and working with
VOC rehab to partner, to findperspective employers and
supports to learn jobs and tryjobs and actually get paid for
jobs as early as possible.
So I think having someone in thehigh school who can have those
(22:50):
relationships and supportfamilies and students through
the process is important.
I also think that growing therange of options for students
and families, again, I recognizethat Madison like large school
districts has resources, um, forflexibility, but we have a
project search program, which isphenomenal in terms of bringing
(23:13):
those pieces together, schoolparents, students, employers,
Voke rehab, and adult agenciesto support those experiences and
gaining employment and employeeemployment and employability
skills, which will lead tobetter outcomes for students.
We also have a college programwe're really fortunate to have
(23:33):
campus connect.
And so our high school students,um, can go to college with
supports from our schooldistrict.
And then also our buildings eachhave a transition coordinator,
um, or sometimes multiple,depending on the size of the
school and the size of thepopulation of students in
transition services.
So I think growing options andopportunities, and I would love
(23:58):
to see smaller school districtspull, pull together to hire
transition coordinators that cangain that expertise on behalf of
students and families.
But if we can continue to growthose options, we have the
workforce innovation andopportunity act in place.
We have services that we need toprovide.
So we just have to continue tobuild the base of people who
(24:18):
know how to do that.
Sure.
You know, Nancy, we're comingclose to our end of our time
together.
You sound like such an optimist.
Um, are you seeing good thingsin the future for students with
disabilities and families andWisconsin?
Absolutely.
Yes, I really am.
I mean, I do believe that Ibelieve that over these past
(24:40):
five to 10 years, um, bestpractices are better known.
And I believe that again, goingback to the more parents and
family members can educatethemselves on what's possible,
the more that they know whatspecifics to ask for, they may
run into a teacher or even aspecial ed director who hasn't
(25:03):
had a lot of experience yet intransition.
So the more everyone educatesthemselves, um, the more we know
the more we can do.
So I I'm absolutely optimistic.
And you know, I, I'm always sohappy to be a part of, uh,
talking about best practices inspecial education and in
transition.
So thank you very much forhaving me.
Oh, thank you.
I think we've come away with alot of good advice and ideas.
(25:26):
So we so appreciate you havingus having on the podcast today.
And I wanted to thank ourlisteners too for taking the
time to listen to Nancy and thearc experience podcast.
Be sure to join us next time andmake sure you like share and
subscribe
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Today's episode of the art experience was brought
to you by the arc Wisconsin, thestate's oldest advocacy
organization for people withintellectual developmental
disabilities and their familiesit's funded in part by the
Wisconsin board for people withdevelopmental disabilities.
Our theme music called speciesis the property of[inaudible]
(26:05):
and cannot be copied ordistributed without permission.
It was produced by EleanorCheetham, a composer and artist
with autism.
Welcome to the arc experience, featuring the
stories of self advocates withdisabilities and their families
from around Wisconsin.
Be inspired.
Take action.
And now for today's episode,
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast.
I'm your host Lisa Pew with thearc Wisconsin.
And you know that here in thispodcast, we strive to bring you
the best.
So today, Dr.
Nancy multicenter is our guest.
She is one of Wisconsin'sleading experts in best
practices in special educationand transition supports for
(00:44):
students with disabilities.
She is currently an assistantdirector of student services in
Wisconsin, second largest schooldistrict, while also continuing
her work as a special educationprofessor at the university of
Wisconsin.
Nancy is someone who is notafraid to roll up her sleeves.
She has more than 20 years ofexperience working as a special
(01:08):
educator transition coordinatorand a leader in statewide and
national organizationssupporting inclusion and
employment.
First, she is passionate aboutsupporting all students with
disabilities to reach theirpotential.
What an introduction, Nancy.
We're so glad to have you.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Thank you.
Yes.
That, that is quite anintroduction.
It's yeah, thank you very muchfor that.
I appreciate it.
And I hope I can live up to thehype.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
We are honored to have your expertise, you know,
special education and transitionsupports for students with
disabilities, such an importanttopic, um, for people who care
about disability issues, youknow, I'm sure that over those
20 years of your experience, I'msure you've seen a range of
changes arrange in quality andthe special education field.
(01:56):
Um, I was following an articleyou're recently quoted in saying
that in the Madison metropolitanschool district, where you work,
the impact of insufficientfunding for students with
disabilities is palpable.
What, what did you mean by that?
And what are you seeing thesedays?
Speaker 3 (02:12):
So we have, and this has always been the case since
I've been in the field, youknow, students with a very wide
range of needs service needs.
And so our challenge in, in, inour, in the Madison school
district and in any schooldistrict is always making sure
that we dedicate the resourceswhere those are needed and, and
(02:35):
it shifts and, and a schooldistrict like Madison has many
schools, smaller schooldistricts, um, sometimes have
fewer buildings, but still needsthat are consistently changing
from year to year for, for theirstudents.
And so we have a funding formulaand that works, um, reasonably
(02:57):
well, um, some of the time, butsome of the time we have to go
outside of that funding formulaand think about, well, what
other resources do we have?
What can we really do to supportthe student to be included with
their peers and how can we makethat work for this particular
student and their family, um,and the school.
And so in those cases, theschool district, what I see is
(03:19):
that a school district likeMadison, that's very large and
other large school districts, um, have more flexibility, um, and
smaller school districts mayhave less.
And so that's something that Isaw when I was working at the
department of publicinstruction.
Um, but even in Madison, wereally have to be consistently
thinking about, about how to dothat.
And I think with more fundingand, and maybe tech to ensure
(03:43):
that we kind of have, I thinkthat what we'd like to do in the
field and in certainly in ourschool district is have
resources in place.
So that we're ready for anyshifts that come along rather
than kind of chasing the shiftsto meet students' needs, being
prepared would be a better placeto be.
(04:03):
So in terms of additionalfunding, that's, I would think,
you know, let's get ahead and beprepared for what student needs
may come up and arise, becausewe always know that that's going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Sure.
And I'm sure, you know, what, aswe're talking right now, you've
probably been following thestate budget and there's a lot
of people think that there isn'tenough funding for special
education statewide.
Um, do you, I mean, clearly youthink funding is a major
challenge for school districtsin Wisconsin.
Are there other kind ofchallenges that you're
(04:36):
identifying currently forstudents with disabilities?
Speaker 3 (04:40):
So no surprise to anyone listening to this
podcast, but the current greatchallenge facing the Madison
school district.
And I believe all others, notonly in Wisconsin is that we've
had a year plus of students, notall being in person full time.
(05:03):
And two, you know, nobody couldhave predicted or prevented the
fact that we needed to have aclosure in order to reduce the
spread of COVID-19.
And then this year during theschool year, large school
districts have had to reallybalance health and safety with
how, how much time studentsspend in person in our school
(05:28):
district.
We just recently had all gradesreturn and even that is not full
time for all students.
And so, and some families andstudents have chosen to remain
virtual for their safety.
We completely understand that,but what it means is that
special education servicedelivery has not happened in the
(05:48):
same way over the past 12 to 14months for many students that it
typically would have.
And that also means that somestudents did not make the
expected progress towards thegeneral education curriculum
standards or toward their annualIEP goals.
And so we are in the process ofsetting up additional services
(06:10):
for many students with specialeducation needs.
And so our challenge is how dowe provide those additional
services in a way that helpsstudents to get back to the
progress that they should havemade without the pandemic and
COVID-19 and virtual serviceshappening.
(06:31):
And one of our great challengeswith that is that it's very hard
to provide all of thoseadditional services in inclusive
settings, because we're lookingat afterschool time and summer
time.
And so that's, that's been areally difficult thing for me
personally, as I help plan forour high schools in Madison to
provide additional services thatsome of them are going to be in
(06:55):
more segregated settings than wewant.
And, and that's, it's reallyhard, but trying to help
students catch up basically isthe bottom line challenged.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Right.
Right.
I know you are a passionateadvocate for inclusion, so I'm
sure that's difficult and I'msure staffing challenges as
well, plan to current challengesfor school districts.
I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Yes.
Well, I can tell you that herein Madison, we are offering some
incentives, additional pay forstaff to provide those services
over the summer for students.
And so that's, that is somethingthat we are definitely spending
some resources to, to put inplace.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, thank goodness you work at the university and
are training up young, specialeducation teachers.
We need more of those for sure.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One of my very favorite things to do.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I know you mentioned, um, students, um, kind of
falling behind, or maybe notmaking progress in the last
year, but that, that reallyisn't new news.
When we look at the achievementgaps for students with
disabilities, we really, and youworked previously at the
department of publicinstruction.
We don't seem to be making kindof a meaningful progress in
(08:10):
closing that achievement gap,like, um, and maybe you have a
different opinion on that, butI'm curious, like what do you
think really needs to change inorder to begin closing that?
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah, sure.
So I'm going to start off myanswer, circling back to our
discussion about increasinginclusive opportunities for
students with disabilities thatresearch tells us, um, and my
personal experience tells me andmy many of my colleagues feel
(08:46):
the same and have seen the samethat if we can provide inclusive
opportunities from an early ageand all the way through high
school for students to be ingeneral education classes,
alongside their peers who don'thave disabilities, students get
exposed to all the same content.
Students can have annual IEPgoals that align with the
(09:08):
general education standards andstudents can learn from their
peers, those social andemotional skills that we also
know are so critical to outcomesand to succeeding in school and
beyond school in employment andlife.
And so I, you know, I, I am justa firm believer, as you said in
continuing to think about how dowe have our students with
(09:30):
disabilities regardless of theintensity of their support
needs.
How do we have them side-by-sidewith their peers in general
education classes all the waythrough now, a bit of a more
pragmatic topic that I know theMadison school district is
tackling in earnest at thispoint is reading achievement for
(09:51):
students by the time they leavethird grade.
So another very evidence-basedpractice and topic is that we
know that if the student leavesthird grade well behind grade
level, in terms of readingability that that impacts their
outcomes in the end and aseducators, no one would argue
(10:13):
that that would be the case.
We, we do need to always beconsidering assistive technology
options for students who haveintellectual intellectual
disabilities and other potentialbarriers to becoming independent
readers.
But the majority of our studentsshould be leaving third grade at
(10:33):
or above grade level in terms oftheir reading fluency and their
comprehension skills.
And so that's just, uh,something that we need to tackle
and I believe is a universalneed to tackle because that
allows students then to remainincluded through their years, if
they are able to participate inthe learning activities and have
(10:59):
access to the content verbally,as well as in writing and in
other formats, one more piecethat goes hand in hand with
inclusion and readingachievement, math achievement is
important too.
So I don't want to discountthat, but we, we in the
education field, we know a lotabout universal design for
(11:21):
learning.
We know a lot about scaffoldedor tiered interventions, having
interventions that are universalfor the whole school, having
interventions that are a bitmore intensive for students who
need those and then veryintensive for a smaller number
of students.
So we know what to do, but wedon't always get the work done.
(11:44):
So I think to continue to focuson known evidence-based
practices of inclusion,universal design for learning,
and the three tieredintervention process are things
that we just need to continue tofocus on.
And we need to remember ineducation, this is a hard thing
about education.
We never really have it donebecause you can have a school
(12:05):
that's absolutely thriving andachievement outcomes are very
positive for students withdisabilities.
And, um, you know, two yearslater, if there's turnover or
things change that can go awaywithout a constant kind of
effort and focus.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, those are, that's really good insight on
the achievement gap and areas tofocus.
I think don't, you see, youknow, in your statewide work, a
lot of schools do struggle with,um, inclusion and understanding
how to do it and how to do itwell.
And, um, I know that at thedepartment of public
instruction, they've been tryingto provide that sort of
(12:42):
technical assistance todistricts, but that seems to be
a continued challenge,
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Right?
Well, it never, we're neverreally done.
And I think that having thatmindset is critical.
I just think for those of us whoare leaders in the state leaders
in districts and, and even forall of our teachers, general
education teachers as well,principals, you know, everyone
who works with, with students,um, it's the students, of course
(13:11):
who have special educationservices are general education
students first.
So we have to remember thateveryone in a school building
and school district is involvedin the process and we just have
to have the mindset that we're,we really are never done and
that a student may have afantastic year.
Um, and then the following yearmight not be as, as good.
(13:32):
So we can't say, Oh, thatstudent is great.
Oh, you know, they're just goingto keep, keep coasting along.
Um, and same thing for a school,same thing for a grade level.
Like we, we just, our work isnever done and that's how it's
supposed to be.
We have to continue to circleback on, okay, what's working
here, what's not working hereand be good problem solvers and
maintain that mindset of, youknow, what worked last year may
(13:56):
not work this year.
That's okay.
We try something new back
Speaker 2 (14:00):
To the drawing board.
Continuous.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Um, going back to funding a little bit, you know,
I mentioned that the legislatureis debating the state budget and
that budget had included somepretty large increases for
special education.
I'm wondering in terms of, youknow, some of those achievement
gap areas that you just talkedabout, like where, how would you
invest that money?
Like what, how do you see itbenefiting students if you were
(14:26):
able to get an increase?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Sure.
So I, I do, I think we wouldwant to look at staffing
patterns.
So I do believe that, um, more,more people, more staff, more
teachers, more paraprofessionals, isn't always the answer, but I
think we would want to look atstaffing patterns.
(14:50):
We would want to look at payscales.
Um, you know, w we're I thinkall school districts are
continuously looking at payscales and what is going to
attract the very best people tothe field and to stay with the
district and to stay at schoolswith our students and build
those positive relationshipsover time with families and
students.
(15:11):
Um, and then I also think thatinvesting in communication
strategies, which goes hand inhand with professional
development for teachers andother staff, how are we
messaging out?
How are we creating materialsthat are going to be the most
helpful, so that teachers dounderstand how do I meaningfully
(15:33):
include students with veryintensive support needs in
classes?
How do I support that?
How do I support teachers to getstudents involved in learning
activities?
Um, you know, I no surprise toyou or probably any of your
listeners, but it's really not apositive outcome for students or
positive experience for studentsif they're in a classroom, but
(15:55):
they're not involved in thelearning activities.
So that's the, the, we want todig deeper in terms of the level
of professional developmentaround the tiered interventions
and universal design forlearning, but also how to modify
materials.
We really want to, I think getdown to the really basics of
like the, how tos, how do wemake this happen?
(16:17):
And I think that investing someresources in whether it be
expert trainers, whether it bedevelopment of materials, um,
those are the pieces that Iwould want to take a look at.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
You know, I'm listening to you as a parent, as
a parent of a student, a formerstudent with a disability she's
now out of the public schools.
And, um, I'm sure that whatyou're saying is like music to
the ears of a lot of parents,because you know, a lot of times
parents struggle with theirrelationship with the school
district.
I'm sure you've seen thatthroughout your career, um, when
(16:52):
they feel their child's needs,aren't being met, um, it often
causes great difficulties.
I'm wondering what your adviceis to parents about their
relationship with the school.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Aye,
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Have regular conversations with teachers and
school staff about this topic,not from the parents side, but
from the school staff side.
But I think that the advice isthe same and, and advice as a
strong word.
I'll just say from myperspective, what I've seen can
be really helpful for studentsand their services and outcomes
(17:33):
is I share with school staffthat we always want to remember
the positive intent.
That's behind questions thatparents ask and parents I've
never met a parent ever whodoesn't want the very best for
their child.
I'm a parent myself, and I'veworked with many parents and
(17:56):
families over the years, nevermet a parent who doesn't want
the very best for their, theirchild.
And in the same vein, I haven'tmet any teachers who say that
their goal is to have a studenthave less than optimal outcomes.
And so I really believe thatteams, IEP teams, teachers, and
(18:18):
school staff and parents allhave the ultimate same goal,
which is that the student has apositive educational experience
that the student learns that thestudent meets their IEP goals,
that the student has friends.
And so how to make that happenis something that sometimes team
members differ on.
So when there are differences ofopinion or when a parent or
(18:42):
family is struggling with what'shappening for a child, that
school, I would say a reallygood approach is to ask for an
IEP team meeting.
And that can happen at any time,not doesn't have to wait for the
annual and to say, talk to startout with something like I really
want to meet, because I want totalk about our goals for my
(19:04):
student, not just annual IEPgoals, but goals in general and
make sure we're on the same pageand think about how we can work
together to support my child, toachieve the learning outcomes
that we want to see themachieve, to, um, learn the
social skills, to make friends,to be involved in
extracurricular activities, andthen ultimately get to where
(19:27):
they want to be after highschool.
And so I think that it's, and asa parent, you know, I've
struggled with this myself thatwhen your child is, is seemingly
not doing well.
Um, it's, it's a very emotionalmoment and that's, that's okay.
It's understandable.
(19:47):
Um, and, and that it's okay toexpress that, but I would also
just say that I know very fewteachers and case managers who
don't want to talk about thatand don't want to listen and
don't want to help make thingsbetter for a child.
I would also say that that's oneof the reasons that my position
exists in that only the Madisonschool district, but every
(20:10):
district has a director ofpeople services, a director of
special education, and thatperson can and should be an
ally.
So if you need to reach out andbring that person on board, that
can be really helpful as well.
Um, sometimes it takes a fewdiscussions and a few, a few
(20:30):
conversations, um, to, to get toa place of mutual understanding
w school staff wanna understandwhere you're coming from.
So help them to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Sure.
I like your reminder thateveryone really does have the
best of intentions and the samegoal of student success.
So just to remind yourself ofthat and, and that it's okay to
call an IEP meeting.
I think that's good advice forparents too, you know, Nancy
throughout your career, you havea great deal of experience in
(21:02):
transition supports thosesupports for youth ages 18 to
21.
And I know you've seen a lot ofgood practices and not so good
practices.
I'm wondering what you see inthe future of quality transition
programs, um, for youth withdisabilities, what would you
like to see happen?
I guess,
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Yes.
What I would love to see is Iwould love to see, um, this
connects to the, you know, thebudget questions on the funding
questions is I would love to seeevery school, every high school
have at least one transitioncoordinator, um, who gets to
know the VOC rehab system, thedivision of vocational
(21:47):
rehabilitation in Wisconsin, butevery state has a rehab, um, a
Voke rehab system that workswith schools.
So I'd love to see every highschool have someone who can
become an expert in therelationships with vocational
rehabilitation and therelationships with adult service
providers and relationships withemployers and prospective
(22:08):
employers in the community sothat students could have work
experiences earlier.
I have, um, use the termevidence-based practice a couple
of times in this podcast, butone evidence-based practice.
That's very clear in transitionservices for students with
disabilities is early workexperience.
(22:29):
And so thinking about thosesummers, even after ninth and
10th grade summers and weekendsfor students and working with
VOC rehab to partner, to findperspective employers and
supports to learn jobs and tryjobs and actually get paid for
jobs as early as possible.
So I think having someone in thehigh school who can have those
(22:50):
relationships and supportfamilies and students through
the process is important.
I also think that growing therange of options for students
and families, again, I recognizethat Madison like large school
districts has resources, um, forflexibility, but we have a
project search program, which isphenomenal in terms of bringing
(23:13):
those pieces together, schoolparents, students, employers,
Voke rehab, and adult agenciesto support those experiences and
gaining employment and employeeemployment and employability
skills, which will lead tobetter outcomes for students.
We also have a college programwe're really fortunate to have
(23:33):
campus connect.
And so our high school students,um, can go to college with
supports from our schooldistrict.
And then also our buildings eachhave a transition coordinator,
um, or sometimes multiple,depending on the size of the
school and the size of thepopulation of students in
transition services.
So I think growing options andopportunities, and I would love
(23:58):
to see smaller school districtspull, pull together to hire
transition coordinators that cangain that expertise on behalf of
students and families.
But if we can continue to growthose options, we have the
workforce innovation andopportunity act in place.
We have services that we need toprovide.
So we just have to continue tobuild the base of people who
(24:18):
know how to do that.
Sure.
You know, Nancy, we're comingclose to our end of our time
together.
You sound like such an optimist.
Um, are you seeing good thingsin the future for students with
disabilities and families andWisconsin?
Absolutely.
Yes, I really am.
I mean, I do believe that Ibelieve that over these past
(24:40):
five to 10 years, um, bestpractices are better known.
And I believe that again, goingback to the more parents and
family members can educatethemselves on what's possible,
the more that they know whatspecifics to ask for, they may
run into a teacher or even aspecial ed director who hasn't
(25:03):
had a lot of experience yet intransition.
So the more everyone educatesthemselves, um, the more we know
the more we can do.
So I I'm absolutely optimistic.
And you know, I, I'm always sohappy to be a part of, uh,
talking about best practices inspecial education and in
transition.
So thank you very much forhaving me.
Oh, thank you.
I think we've come away with alot of good advice and ideas.
(25:26):
So we so appreciate you havingus having on the podcast today.
And I wanted to thank ourlisteners too for taking the
time to listen to Nancy and thearc experience podcast.
Be sure to join us next time andmake sure you like share and
subscribe
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Today's episode of the art experience was brought
to you by the arc Wisconsin, thestate's oldest advocacy
organization for people withintellectual developmental
disabilities and their familiesit's funded in part by the
Wisconsin board for people withdevelopmental disabilities.
Our theme music called speciesis the property of[inaudible]
(26:05):
and cannot be copied ordistributed without permission.
It was produced by EleanorCheetham, a composer and artist
with autism.
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