October 15, 2021 • 21 mins
If you haven't heard of the Britney Spears conservatorship case we'd be pretty surprised! It seems everyone is talking about conservatorship or guardianship these days as the case of the pop star's life hits the headlines. But while you may now know that Britney had very limited control over any decisions in her life, what may be new news is that tens of thousands of people in Wisconsin live with the same restrictions. Many people think guardianship is an over-used tool in Wisconsin and people with disabilities should have more choice and control in their lives. Listen to this podcast to hear from an attorney who is in the trenches helping Wisconsin people with disabilities have their guardianships reviewed and get their rights back.
Resources on Guardianship in Wisconsin:
https://wi-bpdd.org/index.php/supporteddecision-making/
https://arcwi.org/2018/04/13/supported-decision-making/
Guardianship Support Center: https://gwaar.org/guardianship-resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the arc experienced, featuring the
stories of self advocates withdisabilities and their families
from around Wisconsin.
Be inspired.
Take action.
And now for today's episode,
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast.
I'm your host Lisa pew from thearc Wisconsin today.
We're talking aboutguardianship.
Actually, a lot of people in theUnited States are talking about
guardianship these days becauseof a pop star that you may have
heard of Brittany Spears.
Some of you have probably readin the news CNN TV that Spirit's
(00:46):
career has been in the hands oflegal guardians, um, including
her father in an arrangementthat a lot of people been
calling conservatorship.
Um, that's been her situationsince 2008 when she had a, um, a
public mental health crisis.
And that's how that happened.
We're going to talk more aboutthat, but I think we're perhaps
(01:08):
more interestingly to learn moreabout people who are under
guardianship or conservatorshipin Wisconsin, which is tens of
thousands of people.
So our guest today is an experton that.
George is ASCII is an attorneywho works with families to help
plan for their future of theirchild.
With a disability is also aparent of an adult with a
(01:31):
disability.
And, um, he is really an experton guardianship and supported
decision-making.
So thank you for joining us,George.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Glad to be here.
Hey
Speaker 2 (01:41):
George, can you give us a little bit of an overview
of what you know is happening inthat Brittany Spears case as of
today, which is, uh, earlyOctober and I know things are
changing all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, just this, this week, actually her father who
earlier in the month, petitionedto resign from the
conservatorship for hisdaughter, Brittany.
In fact, it was granted by thecourt.
And I think what that highlightsis if you're put under
guardianship or conservatorship,the court needs to be involved
(02:16):
in all, most, all of the majordecision-making.
So you just can't resign andwalk away as a guardian or as a,
as a conservator, you need thecourt's approval to do that.
And oftentimes when somebodyresigns there's a need for a
successor conservator or asuccessor guardian.
So that's part of the process isfinding somebody to take over
(02:41):
that role unless you'reresigning because the
guardianship or theconservatorship is being
terminated.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah.
So we really, I guess we don'tknow what's going to happen in
that specific case, but I thinkyou're making the point like
guardianship is a reallysignificant process said takes
away people's rights.
Can you back us up a little bitand really explain kind of what
an extreme process that reallyis and what it means for people?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Here in Wisconsin, you can startthe guardianship process at
seven.
If your child is 17 and a halfyears old, the idea is to get
the guardianship in place toprotect your loved one.
When they turn 18 and reachedthe age of majority where a
number of rights invest in themand parents no longer have any
(03:34):
kind of say in their child'slife.
Once they reach the age ofmajority of 18.
So our system is set up thatmonths before you turn 18, you
can fill out the paperwork,which is called a petition for
guardianship of the person inWisconsin.
We have two types ofguardianship on your chapter 54,
which is guardianship of theperson or guardianship of the
(03:57):
estate and guardianship of theestate deals with the money.
And obviously guardianship ofthe person deals with the, with
the individual themselves.
And the forms are online.
I know a number of parents whohave filled out the forms
themselves, gone into court andgotten appointed guardianship.
(04:17):
Um, and basically they havealmost complete control of their
child's life from makingdecisions about medical
treatment, their finances, wherethey live, the benefits they
receive, even whether or notthey can vote.
So it's a very significant andvery powerful, uh, court order
that can be generated out ofthis process,
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You know, and doing a little background research for
our conversation today.
It looks like the basic data onguardianship and Wisconsin, like
how many people and who, andwhere they live and who are the
guardian.
Like, that's really hard tofind.
There really isn't very gooddata, but, and the best I could
find is actually pretty old,2015, and it's kind of cobbled
(05:04):
together information from thecourts, estimated 34,000 people
under guardian ship.
And it says about 6,000guardianship petitions.
So those requests were filed in2016.
I know you had mentioned to meearlier that you think that
number is actually low for thenumber of guardianships in
Wisconsin.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah.
Because if you think about, uh,in the area of, uh, cognitive
disability and somebody comingout of high school, they're
going to be placed underguardianship in 2015.
And that guardianship is goingto last for 40, 50 or 60 years
until they pass away in theirsixties or seventies.
(05:43):
And then in 2016, there'sanother graduating class in
2017, there's another.
And so the numbers just keepbeing added and you're under and
more and more people are underguardianship for long, for a
long period of time.
And I also, part of my practiceincludes elder law.
And I think we're also seeing anincrease in the number of
guardianships for elderlypeople, the baby boomers as they
(06:07):
age.
And they may reach a point wherethey're with Alzheimer's or
dementia, where they can't makedecisions for themselves and a
guardian needs to be appointed.
And those are, can be hugenumbers in our population.
So you're seeing guardianshipon, in, in our society right
now, expand, expanding in onboth ends of the life spectrum.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You make it sound like it's pretty easy to put a
guardianship in place inWisconsin.
I, you know, I think we'relearning from the Britney Spears
case.
Like that's not always a goodthing.
It's, um, I'm wondering whatyour, what your thoughts are on
that and how frequently orinfrequently guardianship should
really be used.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Well, I gave a presentation to a parent group
of SCATA be maybe 10 years agoon guardianships.
And when I did my research andit was really hard to come up
with current data at that time,I came across the study that
indicated that most guardianshiphearings, uh, lasts between 15
(07:16):
and 30 minutes.
Now I practicing court do motionpractice.
When you're in court, you makeappearances, the judge tells you
about their guns, their rules inthe courtroom, but in about 15
to 30 minutes, you can have allof your rights taken away
because generally the peoplecoming in are mom and dad.
(07:40):
They have their loved one's bestinterests.
In mind.
The court recognizes thatthere's been a physician's
report that has indicated thatthe person, uh, that's to be
placed under guardianship inWisconsin, it's called the
they're called the ward.
They may indicate that that'sappropriate.
And it's just in some ways, acontinuation of the care and
(08:03):
support that an individual hadwhen they were a minor in their
parents' household.
And then this gives the parents,a court order and legal
authority to continue thatbeyond age 18.
One of the things that we'refinding is that the brain, the
human brain does not fullydevelop until till about age 24,
(08:25):
25.
That is true regardless ofcognitive disability.
So if you've got an 18 year oldgetting ready to go off to
college, their brain is stillimmature and still needs
opportunities to physicallymature and to develop the
executive functioning, therational decision-making that
(08:46):
they would need to be a moreresponsible adult.
I mean, I can certainly lookback and consider some of the
decisions I made when I was 18or 19, and they were not
necessarily the best and brainresearch has shown that that's
in fact, the case and the otherresearch has shown that when
(09:08):
somebody is put underguardianship, regardless of
their cognitive ability, at somelevel, they know that they
aren't making their owndecisions.
They are not independent.
Somebody is making choices forthem, and they don't have the
opportunities to make decisions,maybe fail in a safe way and
(09:30):
learn from those decisions andimprove over time.
But we put them on at 17 and wecan put on a guardianship at 17
and a half.
And that order is going to stayin place for decades.
I mean, people, if you're 17 anda half and it's in for 40 years,
you're only what 57.
It could be another 10 years,67, 77, that somebody else is
(09:53):
making decisions for you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You know, and I think we're seeing what I'm hearing
you say is that these, thisdecision is made in a pretty
short amount of time, uh, andlasts for a really long time.
And I think what we're seeing inthe Brittany Spears case relates
to what you just said, that, youknow, her conservative ship was
(10:16):
put into place after she had apretty significant mental health
crisis.
And now it appears that that'sno longer the situation for her,
but yet it's pretty difficult orit has been.
And it seems like it's drawn outnow in the courts to even
consider lessening that level ofoversight in her life.
How easy or hard is it to get aguardianship changed for
(10:40):
somebody in Wisconsin?
Who's not Brittany Spears.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Oh, I would say it's, it's very difficult.
I think in order to effectivelychallenge a guardianship, you
would want to have an attorneyinvolved who understood the
rules of evidence courtprocedures, and be able to
develop a case to make anargument for either reducing the
reach and scope of aguardianship from maybe a full
(11:06):
guardianship to a limitedguardianship, to have a
guardianship terminated.
You'd have to look at progressthat the individual has made in
terms of their decision-making,what maybe backup supports will
be put in place so that theperson transitioning out of a
guardianship to no guardianshipwould still have support in
(11:29):
place to help them so that theywouldn't no sense fall back
where they would need more ofit.
The interesting thing I foundabout the Brittany Spears cases,
her, uh, or court order, theGenesis started under an, uh,
temporary emergency order.
(11:49):
And it was more mental health.
Now, here in Wisconsin, we havea different statute that deals
with those types of cases,whether it's a mental health
breakdown or substance abuse.
And it's called protectiveplacement in, in, in, in
Wisconsin with a protectiveplacement.
There's a requirement that oncea year, that protective
(12:12):
placement is reviewed under theguardianship statute that we
have chapter 54, that doesn'thave any kind of regular review
of the guardianship.
So that's why we say they can beput in place at 17 and a half
and go unreviewed or unexaminedfor that person's lifetime.
(12:36):
And whether that there would'vebeen changes to that person in
the future, it would beincumbent upon them.
Now, everybody who is underguardianship has a right to an
attorney, they can challenge it,but as a practical matter, that
very rarely happens
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well.
Yeah, because I mean, it's notas if people with disabilities
have the same means as certainlyas Brittany Spears to connect
with an attorney that can helpthem challenge and get into
court and understand all theseimportant, um, avenues and
pieces of the law that you'rementioning.
Um, you make a really importantpoint, you know, back to that
(13:14):
brain development point.
You know, the fact that somebodymight be put under a
guardianship at age 17, age 18,and then, um, their brain
develops and like you and I, welearned to make decisions.
We probably make a lot ofmistakes and you learn from
those.
It seems like there should besome sort of review, um, at the
(13:36):
very least for young people,maybe for, for others as well.
What do you, what are yourthoughts on that and what is
some progress maybe that we'remaking in that direction?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Well, an interesting I'm licensed in Minnesota and
Wisconsin.
I live in the border area ofWisconsin and Minnesota.
And just last year, Minnesotapassed a law that has time
limited guardianships for anyoneunder age, 30 years old.
So when I looked at the BrittanySpears case, she was put under
(14:07):
guardianship at age 26.
Now, if it happened, you know,fast-forward to Minnesota in
2021, if that were the case,they would have had to review
her guardianship within 72months.
So I think there's a recognitionin, in guardianship circles,
(14:31):
people who care aboutguardianships, um, physicians,
advocates, people underguardianship, corporate
guardians lawyers, judges.
There is a growing recognitionthat that's the Bain development
when you're younger is, iscritical.
And as I said to Minnesota,they've recognized as such that
(14:54):
they've changed theirguardianship law, that you can't
put a guardianship on somebodyunder age 30 for more than 72
months, you've got to come backin.
And we're also seeing more, um,emphasis placed on guardians.
In many instances, the parentsof answering the question is
(15:15):
this really the leastrestrictive control that can be
put on individual.
And what have you tried todemonstrate why a guardianship
is more appropriate thansomething less restrictive?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah.
And, you know, hopefully we canget there in Wisconsin too,
because you know, obviously youand I worked on the supportive
decision-making law, whichWisconsin is actually a pioneer
in supported decision making,which can be a good kind of a
practicing option for somebodyand also helpful for parents.
(15:49):
You're a parent, I'm also aparent helpful for parents and
thinking like, how can I reallyprovide some support structure
for my loved one so that theyhave get that good practice
making decisions in a sort of a,um, more protected environment
that's not restrictive to thedegree that guardianship is.
(16:10):
So, um, it sounds like, youknow, just kinda wrapping up
because we could talk foreverand I'll put some resources in
the show notes, but I'mwondering to me based upon what
I've seen in the news, and therewas just a hearing on
guardianship in the us Senatelike this Brittany Spears case
(16:31):
has really opened people's eyesand might be changing the
conversation on guardianship.
If you could look forward 10years from now, what would you
hope would be the situation forpeople with disabilities and
guardianship and Wisconsin?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Well, I, I would love to see this a similar thing in
Wisconsin.
That's in Minnesota, that aguardianship is time limited.
And actually, I think one of thebenefits Wisconsin has is it's
supported decision-making lawbecause part of the challenge is
not only just with families andprotecting their loved ones.
(17:07):
It's many of us who have a childwith a disability, a young adult
with a disability is we have tointeract with systems and
systems like the medicalcommunity, the benefits
community, the, um, financialcommunity.
And they, they, they ask, youknow, I, there's a, there's a
funny phrase that, you know, ifyou've been identified as
(17:30):
someone with a disability,people will ask oftentimes, and
I've seen people ask this of myson, are you your own guardian?
Um, I never get asked thatquestion.
No one ever asked me, am I on myown guardian?
But you can see whether theseimplicit, um, views I reluctant
to say bias because I don'tthink there's necessarily a
(17:52):
negative connotation here, butthere's this view that, oh, if
you have a disability, you maynot be making your own
decisions.
And that's sort of the firstthing that people go to as
opposed to a second or a thirdassumption.
And that's one of the things Ilike about our supportive
decision making law here inWisconsin is these systems now
(18:14):
know that there's a long placechapter.
Um, 52 that says that there'sanother way that a person with a
disability can be supported andembedded in that statute.
Our PR liability protections forbusinesses, for healthcare
providers, for the financialinstitutions, so that we can,
(18:36):
they can deal with people withdisabilities differently.
And we can start to change theview of that.
And I certainly think that,that, you know, into my own
personal circumstances, and Itell stories a little bit about
our, our family with permissionof my son, I don't know, in a
few years, whether or not alimited guardianship may be
(18:56):
appropriate, but we have usedthe supportive decision-making
law to get us to a better point.
I do know that if we ever did aguardianship, it would be a
limited guardianship.
It would not be a fullguardianship because I've
learned as somebody supportingin a young adult with a
disability, what kinds ofsupports he needs and what kind
(19:18):
of sports he may need goingforward.
But I am looking at leastrestrictive.
I'm looking at opportunities toput the fewest amount of
restrictions on him.
Because another thing toremember for parents is somebody
else's likely to get this courtorder for guardianship and
studies have also shown that ifyou're under guardian ship,
(19:40):
you're not as sensitive to selfautonomy to your own self as an
individual.
And when you don't haveguardianship, you get a better
sense of self and your ownboundaries, and you can protect
yourself better because you knowthat you're your own individual
and you can make choices foryourself.
And they're finding that that'sa way of protecting vulnerable
(20:05):
people, is their own sense ofself.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Thank you for shedding light on the Britney
Spears case and you know, kindof what guardianship looks like
in Wisconsin.
You know, one thing I didn't sayin the introduction is that you
are such an ally for people withdisabilities.
I know that you have gone tocourt with people with
disabilities and help them gettheir voting rights restored.
(20:29):
I just thank you for being apioneer and an ally on this
issue and, um, hope to see somechange in Wisconsin in the
future.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Um, thank you, Lisa and I, I showed us
Speaker 2 (20:43):
All right.
Thanks a lot, George, forjoining us and thank you to our
listeners for listening to thearc experience podcast today,
please be sure to like share andsubscribe
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Today's episode of the arc experience was brought
to you by the arc Wisconsin, thestate's oldest advocacy
organization for people withintellectual developmental
disabilities and their familiesit's funded in part by the
Wisconsin board for people withdevelopmental disabilities.
Our theme music called speciesis the property of[inaudible]
(21:15):
and cannot be copied ordistributed without permission.
It was produced by EleanorCheetham, a composer and artist
with autism.
Welcome to the arc experienced, featuring the
stories of self advocates withdisabilities and their families
from around Wisconsin.
Be inspired.
Take action.
And now for today's episode,
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hello and welcome to the arc experience podcast.
I'm your host Lisa pew from thearc Wisconsin today.
We're talking aboutguardianship.
Actually, a lot of people in theUnited States are talking about
guardianship these days becauseof a pop star that you may have
heard of Brittany Spears.
Some of you have probably readin the news CNN TV that Spirit's
(00:46):
career has been in the hands oflegal guardians, um, including
her father in an arrangementthat a lot of people been
calling conservatorship.
Um, that's been her situationsince 2008 when she had a, um, a
public mental health crisis.
And that's how that happened.
We're going to talk more aboutthat, but I think we're perhaps
(01:08):
more interestingly to learn moreabout people who are under
guardianship or conservatorshipin Wisconsin, which is tens of
thousands of people.
So our guest today is an experton that.
George is ASCII is an attorneywho works with families to help
plan for their future of theirchild.
With a disability is also aparent of an adult with a
(01:31):
disability.
And, um, he is really an experton guardianship and supported
decision-making.
So thank you for joining us,George.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Glad to be here.
Hey
Speaker 2 (01:41):
George, can you give us a little bit of an overview
of what you know is happening inthat Brittany Spears case as of
today, which is, uh, earlyOctober and I know things are
changing all the time.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, just this, this week, actually her father who
earlier in the month, petitionedto resign from the
conservatorship for hisdaughter, Brittany.
In fact, it was granted by thecourt.
And I think what that highlightsis if you're put under
guardianship or conservatorship,the court needs to be involved
(02:16):
in all, most, all of the majordecision-making.
So you just can't resign andwalk away as a guardian or as a,
as a conservator, you need thecourt's approval to do that.
And oftentimes when somebodyresigns there's a need for a
successor conservator or asuccessor guardian.
So that's part of the process isfinding somebody to take over
(02:41):
that role unless you'reresigning because the
guardianship or theconservatorship is being
terminated.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah.
So we really, I guess we don'tknow what's going to happen in
that specific case, but I thinkyou're making the point like
guardianship is a reallysignificant process said takes
away people's rights.
Can you back us up a little bitand really explain kind of what
an extreme process that reallyis and what it means for people?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Yeah.
Yes.
Here in Wisconsin, you can startthe guardianship process at
seven.
If your child is 17 and a halfyears old, the idea is to get
the guardianship in place toprotect your loved one.
When they turn 18 and reachedthe age of majority where a
number of rights invest in themand parents no longer have any
(03:34):
kind of say in their child'slife.
Once they reach the age ofmajority of 18.
So our system is set up thatmonths before you turn 18, you
can fill out the paperwork,which is called a petition for
guardianship of the person inWisconsin.
We have two types ofguardianship on your chapter 54,
which is guardianship of theperson or guardianship of the
(03:57):
estate and guardianship of theestate deals with the money.
And obviously guardianship ofthe person deals with the, with
the individual themselves.
And the forms are online.
I know a number of parents whohave filled out the forms
themselves, gone into court andgotten appointed guardianship.
(04:17):
Um, and basically they havealmost complete control of their
child's life from makingdecisions about medical
treatment, their finances, wherethey live, the benefits they
receive, even whether or notthey can vote.
So it's a very significant andvery powerful, uh, court order
that can be generated out ofthis process,
Speaker 2 (04:40):
You know, and doing a little background research for
our conversation today.
It looks like the basic data onguardianship and Wisconsin, like
how many people and who, andwhere they live and who are the
guardian.
Like, that's really hard tofind.
There really isn't very gooddata, but, and the best I could
find is actually pretty old,2015, and it's kind of cobbled
(05:04):
together information from thecourts, estimated 34,000 people
under guardian ship.
And it says about 6,000guardianship petitions.
So those requests were filed in2016.
I know you had mentioned to meearlier that you think that
number is actually low for thenumber of guardianships in
Wisconsin.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah.
Because if you think about, uh,in the area of, uh, cognitive
disability and somebody comingout of high school, they're
going to be placed underguardianship in 2015.
And that guardianship is goingto last for 40, 50 or 60 years
until they pass away in theirsixties or seventies.
(05:43):
And then in 2016, there'sanother graduating class in
2017, there's another.
And so the numbers just keepbeing added and you're under and
more and more people are underguardianship for long, for a
long period of time.
And I also, part of my practiceincludes elder law.
And I think we're also seeing anincrease in the number of
guardianships for elderlypeople, the baby boomers as they
(06:07):
age.
And they may reach a point wherethey're with Alzheimer's or
dementia, where they can't makedecisions for themselves and a
guardian needs to be appointed.
And those are, can be hugenumbers in our population.
So you're seeing guardianshipon, in, in our society right
now, expand, expanding in onboth ends of the life spectrum.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You make it sound like it's pretty easy to put a
guardianship in place inWisconsin.
I, you know, I think we'relearning from the Britney Spears
case.
Like that's not always a goodthing.
It's, um, I'm wondering whatyour, what your thoughts are on
that and how frequently orinfrequently guardianship should
really be used.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Well, I gave a presentation to a parent group
of SCATA be maybe 10 years agoon guardianships.
And when I did my research andit was really hard to come up
with current data at that time,I came across the study that
indicated that most guardianshiphearings, uh, lasts between 15
(07:16):
and 30 minutes.
Now I practicing court do motionpractice.
When you're in court, you makeappearances, the judge tells you
about their guns, their rules inthe courtroom, but in about 15
to 30 minutes, you can have allof your rights taken away
because generally the peoplecoming in are mom and dad.
(07:40):
They have their loved one's bestinterests.
In mind.
The court recognizes thatthere's been a physician's
report that has indicated thatthe person, uh, that's to be
placed under guardianship inWisconsin, it's called the
they're called the ward.
They may indicate that that'sappropriate.
And it's just in some ways, acontinuation of the care and
(08:03):
support that an individual hadwhen they were a minor in their
parents' household.
And then this gives the parents,a court order and legal
authority to continue thatbeyond age 18.
One of the things that we'refinding is that the brain, the
human brain does not fullydevelop until till about age 24,
(08:25):
25.
That is true regardless ofcognitive disability.
So if you've got an 18 year oldgetting ready to go off to
college, their brain is stillimmature and still needs
opportunities to physicallymature and to develop the
executive functioning, therational decision-making that
(08:46):
they would need to be a moreresponsible adult.
I mean, I can certainly lookback and consider some of the
decisions I made when I was 18or 19, and they were not
necessarily the best and brainresearch has shown that that's
in fact, the case and the otherresearch has shown that when
(09:08):
somebody is put underguardianship, regardless of
their cognitive ability, at somelevel, they know that they
aren't making their owndecisions.
They are not independent.
Somebody is making choices forthem, and they don't have the
opportunities to make decisions,maybe fail in a safe way and
(09:30):
learn from those decisions andimprove over time.
But we put them on at 17 and wecan put on a guardianship at 17
and a half.
And that order is going to stayin place for decades.
I mean, people, if you're 17 anda half and it's in for 40 years,
you're only what 57.
It could be another 10 years,67, 77, that somebody else is
(09:53):
making decisions for you.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You know, and I think we're seeing what I'm hearing
you say is that these, thisdecision is made in a pretty
short amount of time, uh, andlasts for a really long time.
And I think what we're seeing inthe Brittany Spears case relates
to what you just said, that, youknow, her conservative ship was
(10:16):
put into place after she had apretty significant mental health
crisis.
And now it appears that that'sno longer the situation for her,
but yet it's pretty difficult orit has been.
And it seems like it's drawn outnow in the courts to even
consider lessening that level ofoversight in her life.
How easy or hard is it to get aguardianship changed for
(10:40):
somebody in Wisconsin?
Who's not Brittany Spears.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Oh, I would say it's, it's very difficult.
I think in order to effectivelychallenge a guardianship, you
would want to have an attorneyinvolved who understood the
rules of evidence courtprocedures, and be able to
develop a case to make anargument for either reducing the
reach and scope of aguardianship from maybe a full
(11:06):
guardianship to a limitedguardianship, to have a
guardianship terminated.
You'd have to look at progressthat the individual has made in
terms of their decision-making,what maybe backup supports will
be put in place so that theperson transitioning out of a
guardianship to no guardianshipwould still have support in
(11:29):
place to help them so that theywouldn't no sense fall back
where they would need more ofit.
The interesting thing I foundabout the Brittany Spears cases,
her, uh, or court order, theGenesis started under an, uh,
temporary emergency order.
(11:49):
And it was more mental health.
Now, here in Wisconsin, we havea different statute that deals
with those types of cases,whether it's a mental health
breakdown or substance abuse.
And it's called protectiveplacement in, in, in, in
Wisconsin with a protectiveplacement.
There's a requirement that oncea year, that protective
(12:12):
placement is reviewed under theguardianship statute that we
have chapter 54, that doesn'thave any kind of regular review
of the guardianship.
So that's why we say they can beput in place at 17 and a half
and go unreviewed or unexaminedfor that person's lifetime.
(12:36):
And whether that there would'vebeen changes to that person in
the future, it would beincumbent upon them.
Now, everybody who is underguardianship has a right to an
attorney, they can challenge it,but as a practical matter, that
very rarely happens
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Well.
Yeah, because I mean, it's notas if people with disabilities
have the same means as certainlyas Brittany Spears to connect
with an attorney that can helpthem challenge and get into
court and understand all theseimportant, um, avenues and
pieces of the law that you'rementioning.
Um, you make a really importantpoint, you know, back to that
(13:14):
brain development point.
You know, the fact that somebodymight be put under a
guardianship at age 17, age 18,and then, um, their brain
develops and like you and I, welearned to make decisions.
We probably make a lot ofmistakes and you learn from
those.
It seems like there should besome sort of review, um, at the
(13:36):
very least for young people,maybe for, for others as well.
What do you, what are yourthoughts on that and what is
some progress maybe that we'remaking in that direction?
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Well, an interesting I'm licensed in Minnesota and
Wisconsin.
I live in the border area ofWisconsin and Minnesota.
And just last year, Minnesotapassed a law that has time
limited guardianships for anyoneunder age, 30 years old.
So when I looked at the BrittanySpears case, she was put under
(14:07):
guardianship at age 26.
Now, if it happened, you know,fast-forward to Minnesota in
2021, if that were the case,they would have had to review
her guardianship within 72months.
So I think there's a recognitionin, in guardianship circles,
(14:31):
people who care aboutguardianships, um, physicians,
advocates, people underguardianship, corporate
guardians lawyers, judges.
There is a growing recognitionthat that's the Bain development
when you're younger is, iscritical.
And as I said to Minnesota,they've recognized as such that
(14:54):
they've changed theirguardianship law, that you can't
put a guardianship on somebodyunder age 30 for more than 72
months, you've got to come backin.
And we're also seeing more, um,emphasis placed on guardians.
In many instances, the parentsof answering the question is
(15:15):
this really the leastrestrictive control that can be
put on individual.
And what have you tried todemonstrate why a guardianship
is more appropriate thansomething less restrictive?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah.
And, you know, hopefully we canget there in Wisconsin too,
because you know, obviously youand I worked on the supportive
decision-making law, whichWisconsin is actually a pioneer
in supported decision making,which can be a good kind of a
practicing option for somebodyand also helpful for parents.
(15:49):
You're a parent, I'm also aparent helpful for parents and
thinking like, how can I reallyprovide some support structure
for my loved one so that theyhave get that good practice
making decisions in a sort of a,um, more protected environment
that's not restrictive to thedegree that guardianship is.
(16:10):
So, um, it sounds like, youknow, just kinda wrapping up
because we could talk foreverand I'll put some resources in
the show notes, but I'mwondering to me based upon what
I've seen in the news, and therewas just a hearing on
guardianship in the us Senatelike this Brittany Spears case
(16:31):
has really opened people's eyesand might be changing the
conversation on guardianship.
If you could look forward 10years from now, what would you
hope would be the situation forpeople with disabilities and
guardianship and Wisconsin?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Well, I, I would love to see this a similar thing in
Wisconsin.
That's in Minnesota, that aguardianship is time limited.
And actually, I think one of thebenefits Wisconsin has is it's
supported decision-making lawbecause part of the challenge is
not only just with families andprotecting their loved ones.
(17:07):
It's many of us who have a childwith a disability, a young adult
with a disability is we have tointeract with systems and
systems like the medicalcommunity, the benefits
community, the, um, financialcommunity.
And they, they, they ask, youknow, I, there's a, there's a
funny phrase that, you know, ifyou've been identified as
(17:30):
someone with a disability,people will ask oftentimes, and
I've seen people ask this of myson, are you your own guardian?
Um, I never get asked thatquestion.
No one ever asked me, am I on myown guardian?
But you can see whether theseimplicit, um, views I reluctant
to say bias because I don'tthink there's necessarily a
(17:52):
negative connotation here, butthere's this view that, oh, if
you have a disability, you maynot be making your own
decisions.
And that's sort of the firstthing that people go to as
opposed to a second or a thirdassumption.
And that's one of the things Ilike about our supportive
decision making law here inWisconsin is these systems now
(18:14):
know that there's a long placechapter.
Um, 52 that says that there'sanother way that a person with a
disability can be supported andembedded in that statute.
Our PR liability protections forbusinesses, for healthcare
providers, for the financialinstitutions, so that we can,
(18:36):
they can deal with people withdisabilities differently.
And we can start to change theview of that.
And I certainly think that,that, you know, into my own
personal circumstances, and Itell stories a little bit about
our, our family with permissionof my son, I don't know, in a
few years, whether or not alimited guardianship may be
(18:56):
appropriate, but we have usedthe supportive decision-making
law to get us to a better point.
I do know that if we ever did aguardianship, it would be a
limited guardianship.
It would not be a fullguardianship because I've
learned as somebody supportingin a young adult with a
disability, what kinds ofsupports he needs and what kind
(19:18):
of sports he may need goingforward.
But I am looking at leastrestrictive.
I'm looking at opportunities toput the fewest amount of
restrictions on him.
Because another thing toremember for parents is somebody
else's likely to get this courtorder for guardianship and
studies have also shown that ifyou're under guardian ship,
(19:40):
you're not as sensitive to selfautonomy to your own self as an
individual.
And when you don't haveguardianship, you get a better
sense of self and your ownboundaries, and you can protect
yourself better because you knowthat you're your own individual
and you can make choices foryourself.
And they're finding that that'sa way of protecting vulnerable
(20:05):
people, is their own sense ofself.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Thank you for shedding light on the Britney
Spears case and you know, kindof what guardianship looks like
in Wisconsin.
You know, one thing I didn't sayin the introduction is that you
are such an ally for people withdisabilities.
I know that you have gone tocourt with people with
disabilities and help them gettheir voting rights restored.
(20:29):
I just thank you for being apioneer and an ally on this
issue and, um, hope to see somechange in Wisconsin in the
future.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Um, thank you, Lisa and I, I showed us
Speaker 2 (20:43):
All right.
Thanks a lot, George, forjoining us and thank you to our
listeners for listening to thearc experience podcast today,
please be sure to like share andsubscribe
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Today's episode of the arc experience was brought
to you by the arc Wisconsin, thestate's oldest advocacy
organization for people withintellectual developmental
disabilities and their familiesit's funded in part by the
Wisconsin board for people withdevelopmental disabilities.
Our theme music called speciesis the property of[inaudible]
(21:15):
and cannot be copied ordistributed without permission.
It was produced by EleanorCheetham, a composer and artist
with autism.
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