October 7, 2024 • 38 mins
Nate Williams and the Dangerous Life Team talk about how to handle modesty and cussing scenarios in church, and they also discuss who the gathering of the local church is for. Is it for non-believers, seekers, new believers, and/or serious believers?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast.
We have the team here with meBlake, chloe, zeke, isaac,
mackenzie and Mariah, and thenwe also have our new mascot,
archie.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're not going to use a person as a mascot.
Zeke forgot to include johnisaac.
Yeah, you always forget toinclude him.
Just because he's smaller andless developed doesn't mean he's
not a human.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I thought when I said mascot, you were roasting john
isaac and you were pointing tojohn isaac.
All right, so archie is ourmascot, john Isaac is with us as
well, and we are talking aboutmodesty in the church and then
we'll goest, you know, which iswearing certain kind of clothing
or lack of clothing, that thechurch leaders need to confront
(00:55):
her quickly, strongly, and Iguess I'd have to relook at the
(01:16):
tweet, but maybe leave or justhandle the situation very
quickly.
So I want to open it up toy'all.
Modesty in the church.
If someone walks in, all right,and let's say they're wearing
vulgar clothing picture, image,phrase or they're very immodest,
they're showing a lot of skinor whatever.
This could be male or femalehow do we address that?
(01:40):
What do we do?
We'll just jump right into it.
Thoughts there, mariah.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think it depends if you're a believer or not,
because a lost person is goingto act like a lost person.
So therefore, I feel likethey're not held to the same
standards as believers.
So in that, since they wouldn'tknow, I don't think we should
say anything.
Maybe just not the way youwould handle it to a believer,
(02:04):
you'd handle it differently.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So maybe see what the status of their faith is.
Are they a new believer?
Are they searching?
Are they a non-believer?
Try to figure out where they'reat.
Okay, so that's Mariah Zeke.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I'm going to say I agree with Mariah but you
mentioned vulgar or poor choiceof what's on the shirt, not
necessarily like lack ofclothing, but what's on the
clothing, yeah.
So if it was the case like thatI'm I'm gonna be a little bit
more strict of if it wassomething like inherently
blasphemous and like it'sobvious, like they know good and
well like what it meant, andthey're choosing to come to
church, I would probably saythat would be a situation where,
like you take them aside, likehey look, we're glad that you're
here, but that's just reallydisrespectful, not to us but to
(02:48):
the God we worship, and we'dappreciate if you didn't wear
that in the house, if I don'tknow.
That's where each church canhave discernment, choose what to
do from there, but I think thatshould be like a.
That's at least one of the hardlines I would draw in this
conversation.
We can get into others later.
One of the hard lines I woulddraw in this conversation and we
can get into others later.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So maybe an image itself.
You'd be a little bit strongerNow.
What about?
People have different thoughtson modesty.
So a nonbeliever might not knowor think about things in
certain ways, whereas if you'vebeen a believer for a long time
you might have more thoughts onmodesty.
So what if?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
someone is.
They're coming into the churchand they tend to oh there, john
isaac goes.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
That's why he thinks about your voice.
Yes, uh, voice, and, as theysay, I have a face for radio.
Um, and the whole, the wholepackage really, but anyways.
So, um, someone comes into thechurch.
Any other thoughts?
Let's say a lady or a man, I,man, this doesn't necessarily
have to be a genderedconversation.
They are excessively immodestto the point of making some
(03:53):
people uncomfortable.
Mariah had her thoughts.
Zeke jumped in about maybe animage he'd be strong against
Blake.
I would kind of against Blake.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
I would kind of if it was like super immodest, like
if a lady or a guy came in andthey were showing like a ton of
skin, even if they were anunbeliever.
It's kind of like with Zekewe're glad you're here, but you
do understand what you're cominginto.
It's not like you're cominginto a club, You're not coming
into a restaurant.
(04:24):
You are coming into a place ofworship and we live in a society
where everybody knows what's tobe expected of our church.
And it is true you can saymaybe not, but with social media
and everything and how thechurch has been put on blast, we
do live in an age and a timewhere people do understand what
is asked of them when it comesto the faith.
So I would say, if they'reshowing excessive amount of skin
(04:45):
, I would say, hey, we need tocover up or something.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Yeah, and I think it also would depend on if it's
their first time there, versusthey've been going there for
years and they've been fine thewhole time, but then they show
up one Sunday wearing thisreally provocative outfit.
And also if they're a member ora non-member maybe, because I
feel like most churches well, Imean churches should anyways lay
out, you know, their certainstandards for the church, like
(05:14):
not telling them what to wear,obviously, but just like guiding
them in that.
But so they could do some otheralternative, like if they see
something like that, maybe justbe like hey, we have a t-shirt
in the back, would you mind justthrowing that on, because we
don't think what you're wearingis appropriate for, um, where we
are and what we're doing um,I'm just gonna say, like, based
(05:37):
off experience wise, I very,very rarely have seen somebody
come in immodestly that likehasn't been going for a while.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
A lot of what I see is young girls wearing very,
very short skirts, and I thinkthat's where the parents should
come in and say hey, you know,we're going to church, let's put
I mean, put on jeans orsomething, but very rarely do I
see somebody coming in off thestreet, you know, like in a
spaghetti strap, tank top oreven something like that.
(06:07):
Like, I think most people arepretty respectful, but as a
woman in the church, I feel likeI should set the example so
that younger girls see that andthen also their mothers should
say hey, we're not wearing thatas church.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, I'm with Mackenzie and Chloe in the sense
of like, if we go to theextremes, I just don't see the
extremes happening, and maybethat's just because I'm in my
own little bubble, but I feellike it would be a big, maybe
not, I don't know.
I just can't imagine someonewalking into a church with, like
, a bikini on.
I feel like you only do that ifyou're literally trying to make
a statement.
(06:41):
But I do think if we got moreon the topic of what McKenzie
just said, of like things thatare not necessarily that
revealing but they're still,like, very unwise, to be fair,
it's really unwise to be atleast going to church and
something like that, and to befair, I would probably go along
the lines of, if I had adaughter, I wouldn't want her
dressing like that in publicanyways, like, just regardless
(07:03):
of the church.
I think there's it's a biggerconversation of just modesty in
general that I I don't want tobe too strict because in a sense
, like, if I was strict enough,I would say that none of us
today would be welcomed into thechurch, you know, 2 000 years
ago or whatever, compared totheir cultural standards, but at
the same time, like thatdoesn't mean we throw out every
standard.
I think there still should besome kind of cultural guideline
(07:24):
to where we say at this pointit's too far, and that's where
I'm not sure.
But I'm open to hear what y'allthink about that.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
This was kind of like a it still has to do with
modesty, but what if we flippedit on its head and we can still
stay in this conversation?
But I was thinking what if aguy walks into the church high
heels, fish the church highheels, fishnets, dress that
comes to his knees?
Oh yeah, how do we feel about?
How do we feel about that?
Or like if a girl comes in bluejeans, boots, blazer, dressed
(07:54):
like a dude, guy dresses like agirl, girl dresses like a guy,
how do we feel about that ifthey walk into the church?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I still think, uh, I I would say, if it's still, if
it's someone that's anonbeliever, maybe they're new
and don't?
They're just there to getChrist.
It's not our place to, I think,like say anything, although we
disagree, and maybe you know Iwouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, I would be more graceful for like, like a
better word First time offender,someone who's not a Christian,
and this lack of a better wordfirst time offender, someone
who's not a Christian, and thisis like the first time they've
ever been there.
Yeah, if they keep coming backand it becomes a reoccurring
thing, like hey, no, she didn'tcome in.
And like they come to smallgroups, they see everyone else
dressed more appropriate, likeif this is a common thing,
someone close to them needs totalk to them.
And if that person, someoneclose to him, won't, then you
(08:43):
know, maybe someone like aleader or a whether it could be
a sunday school leader orsomeone, someone in church that
was that's in their group go upto them or someone they know
like hey, I've noticed so and soconstantly wears inappropriate
stuff.
Like you know, we want her here, but like, can she not?
He or she?
Yeah, y'all said guy or girllike he or she, can they not do
that?
I say I keep saying she becausewe all know that it's probably
(09:05):
more common for it to be girl,because guys, it's just a
cultural thing for us, like guysaren't going to be as commonly
revealing.
I'm not saying that's a badthing on girls, I'm just saying
our culture has gone that wayand that's just how it is.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
And I will say too, modesty is very personal, where
most of the time you have to beconvicted by the Holy Spirit,
because there may be somedresses that I wear that
wouldn't be considered immodest,but you know, immodest to
culture.
But to me, as a wife and aChristian and a mom, now I would
(09:40):
think it would be you know toorevealing, or you know one wrong
move, and I would think itwould be, um, you know too
revealing, or you know one wrongmove, and I do think it's
personal and the Holy spiritguides us to like I think there
are certain situations where weshould step in but, um, you know
, but I think over time as youmature, you get that discernment
(10:03):
too.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Something I've a common response from.
More the grace side of thingsis this yes, maybe people
they're wearing things theyshouldn't.
Maybe something is a little bitmore immodest, maybe shows a
lot of this or that or whatever.
Immodest, maybe shows a lot ofthis or that or whatever.
(10:28):
But we want people to be inrelationship before we get to
the rules, right.
So the thought is, those who goto this side, they're more well
, don't say anything, let themdo what they're going to do and
then, as sanctification goes on,week after week, month after
month, year after year, they'llhave some of that Holy Spirit
conviction.
So their argument would besomeone comes in wearing
(10:50):
whatever they're wearing, don'tsay anything and let it come up
naturally, organically.
Or maybe there's a sermon onthe topic, there's a Bible study
on the topic, and they'll learnthese things on their own.
What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 6 (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, I think I agree with that and I will say
that modesty, especially likeZeke said, like it tends to
cater more towards women becauseof our culture, you know, women
are more over-sexualized.
Culture with you know, womenare more over-sexualized when
you realize that God has createdus women to be feminine.
But to you know, coverourselves so that we save
(11:31):
ourselves for our husband.
It's a beautiful thing, likeit's not a legalistic thing.
It's a thing you naturally wantto do over time.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, any more thoughts on this area?
I could run through a coupledifferent scenarios.
Another one I think of iscussing.
Let's, say someone comes in newbeliever, unbeliever, or just
they're interested, they'recurious and maybe their language
isn't the way that Christiansmight generally talk so loud,
(12:02):
rude, cussing but they're inchurch, same rule, or how do you
all imagine that?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Let's say kids are around.
Well, if it's kids around, itdoesn't matter if it's in church
or not.
If it's someone I know, I'mgoing to ask them.
Hey, can you not do this aroundkids?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
What if you don't know the person?
It's more of a stranger.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It depends on the situation, like if there's like,
even at the park, like we'vebeen to the park, I call out
people that's gonna say, at thepark sometimes we'll be playing
pickleball and they have abasketball court right next to
it where we play, and it's afamily park, like they have a
playground where kids can comeplay and stuff like that and
they'll have loud blaring musicwith a bunch of cuss words and
blake will, most time he heyguys, he doesn't know him.
He's like can y'all turn thatdown?
There's kids over here.
No to be fair.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I know all those guys on the basketball court, so
that's why I say it.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So you wouldn't if it was strangers.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
No, I probably would end up saying something.
It's just, I'm more comfortablebecause and I have, I've asked
total strangers especially youturn that down Like.
I'm not trying to like cause Iknow it.
Some people say, well, it'sfree, whatever's free speech,
free whatever.
But yeah, but it's not but I'mlike okay, I'm not trying to say
(13:08):
, I'm not trying to take thatright away.
You can listen to whatever youwant to but I just don't court
and we have, you know, theirparents bring their kids just to
sit and watch.
I hate it.
Even when we're playingpickleball, if someone's on the
pickleball court, it's not eventhe basketball court and they
miss a shot and they go like ohblank blank.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I'm like dude, there's no don't say that you
know, don't say that in front ofthe kids.
Yeah, now I'm going to offerthe counter argument again.
Okay, so you say, say, hey,watch your language, don't.
Maybe don't use these certainwords and all the stuff.
But then what if someone sayswhat if that's their only
opportunity to hear the gospel?
(13:49):
What if that's their first timein a church?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
how does me what if?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
what if you know they're?
They're doing that and thefirst thing they encounter now
this again just playing devil'sI know y'all love that phrase,
devil's advocate.
The thought is, well, we'll beknown for our rules instead of
known to welcome them in to hearJesus.
So thoughts on that response.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That's the first thing.
They kind of my answer doesn'treally change, because they can
hear the gospel and we're notsaying that they can't be saved,
like if that was—they got upsetabout that.
We could go outside and talkabout it, like if I'm polite,
and ask like hey, there's kidsaround, could you just not cuss
around?
I don't feel like anyone'sgoing to come off like oh, so
(14:38):
you're saying I can't be aChristian or not.
It's just I don't want littlekids having to hear this kind of
stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, I think it depends on our approach.
I kind of agree with that.
I don't know, if we're comingat it in an aggressive way and
telling them off, they wouldthink of it differently than
just be like, hey, maybe thisisn't a wise thing.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, I mean I, I agree, I saw a video.
That's what I was going tobring up.
I saw a video of a guy.
It was like a homeless guy.
He walked into church and heevery time the pastor would say
it was a mega church, by the way, so it was a lot of people.
I know the one you're talkingabout yeah, and the guy, just
like every time the pastor wouldsay something, he would just
dog cuss like whatever, not in abad way, not in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Uh, he would be like we would say like amen, and keep
preaching, and he'd be like,yeah, instead of that, he would
do it with but, but they brought, but they brought him up and it
was really like they stoppedthe sermon.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah, they stopped it .
They stopped the sermon andthey brought him up to the front
and they ended up having thisbeautiful moment because they
didn't condemn him, necessarily,but they just asked.
You know, they asked him abouta story and then they brought
other people, they brought acouple people up to share their
testimony.
Are we, I saying, are wethinking of the right video?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, if it's the same one.
He essentially brought him upand the pastor was like hey man,
what's your name?
And then, uh, he told him he'slike I love your energy.
I'm glad that you're here.
I think God wanted you here.
And then he found out that oneof the church member picked him.
We're not going to cuss duringthe sermon.
We can talk about that later.
(16:00):
I'm glad you're here.
Let's just kind of keep thecussing down.
Then he got to share histestimony and stuff like that,
and it was kind of a beautifulmoment.
Yeah, it was a huge moment whereChrist— he could have easily
called him out and said hey,security, get this guy out of
here, Right?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But instead he chose to meet him.
We lose grace, and so it's upto us, as Christians, to show
the same grace that Jesus Christshowed us.
But we also have to do standfor truth, so we can't just
totally let everything slip by.
If that makes sense, even ifthey are just a first-time
offender, we do need to havethat sort of maturity about us
to be able to handle thosesituations that might be
uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Yeah, just piggy and back Piggy.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Piggy.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Backing on the pig.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Anyways, in my experience I have had somebody
let a cuss word slip and theywould imagine me to condemn them
immediately and judge them.
But I think offered that gracebecause you have to think people
usually cuss habitually, likeit's not something.
A lot of people don't just doit like one.
You know once in a while Peoplewho cuss, they do it every day,
in every, almost every sentence.
So when they come to church andthey're trying to be on their
(17:19):
best behavior but they do let itslip one time, like I think
they would expect us to be likehow dare you, you know, get out
of here.
But when you're like, that'sokay, you know, I see what
you're trying to do and I knowyou're trying to be better and
it's okay, you know.
I think that shows thecharacter of God too.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, I think those are good thoughts.
You do want to protect, let'ssay, little ears, and cussing by
its nature is vulgar, but atthe same time you recognize this
is a precious soul in front ofyou.
You want to love and stewardthem and hopefully they're able
to hear the gospel through yourchurch service.
So I guess if y'all have anymore scenarios like that, we can
(18:04):
go over it.
I thought of clothing and Ithought of cussing, and I'm sure
there are more out there.
But unless y'all want to dothat and I'm open to it, we can
move to the second part of thetopic, which is when the local
church gathers together.
Who is it for?
Is it for non-believers, thosewho are curious, maybe new
(18:26):
believers?
Or is the local churchgathering for serious believers
that want to go deeper and growin their faith?
And so, when it comes tocreating a church service, who
do you gear it towards?
Lots of different church modelsout there that try to do one
both the other, just interestedin knowing your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
I would say it's for both, both people who are saved
and people who aren't yet.
And something I've alwaysreally liked about our pastor is
he will always give some kindof gospel presentation at the
end of each service.
So if there are people who arenot saved or not believers, then
they have the opportunity to dothat.
(19:10):
But you know, Jesus said thatgosh I'm probably going to
misquote this so bad, but it'slike he didn't come to heal the
healthy people, Like he came toheal the sick and so like we're
all sick in nature and we allneed that, and that's kind of
(19:30):
like what the church is, Likewe're all sick, but we're all
going to meet with God.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah, so you're saying, chloe, that I'm sick or
you're sick.
You're just not as sick as me.
So therefore, you're betterthan me.
Yes.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's verbatim what she said Unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Yeah, I think too.
Like you mentioned differentchurch models, I think the
church is definitely for bothand there's room for both
scenarios in every church.
So every you know every sermonwhere somebody who's just coming
off the street, like you said,the gospel should be presented
every single Sunday.
That way it's, for that meets,you know, really often and where
(20:25):
we get to grow all together.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Maybe dive deeper and ask more questions that you
can't really ask questionsduring a sermon.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So there are some churches that that's what they
do.
They might take what you'resaying to an extreme, but
they'll take the service andgear it towards nonbelievers and
new believers and then they'lldirect people.
If you want to go deeper inyour faith, go to one of small
groups of Bible study, somethinglike that.
(20:59):
They might take what you're allsaying, exaggerate it.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Zeke, yeah, I was going to say there's a really
good video.
It was called the Elephant Roomand I don't know who came up
with that idea, but I don't knowwhy they never did it again.
They did it one other time.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I don't know why they didn't do it.
I love the Elephant Room, butwhat happened is, unfortunately,
many of those pastors fell toscandal.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, we need it with pastors who haven't fell to
scandal.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Anywho, zeke, you can put it together.
Nate, I haven't fallen toscandal yet.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
He said pastors who haven't and then you pointed to
him, and then I pointed to youGosh, wow, all right, here's a
scandal.
Nate beats me Just inbasketball.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Well Nate also edits the video.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
know that video?
They did a bunch of series or abunch of small videos with
popular pastors and one of themwas Matt Chandler and Stephen
Furtick and they took twodifferent sides.
Matt Chandler took the churchis for the believers and Stephen
Furtick took the church is fornewcomers, and I think obviously
(22:02):
I agree with Matt Chandler.
I'm going to be a little bitmore strict than the 50-50 that
we've kind of been talking about.
It's for both.
I think its main purpose is forbelievers.
However, they should alwayshave non-believers in mind.
So if I'm splitting it up, I'mgoing to say around 70-30, 80-20
.
(22:23):
What I mean by that is, most ofthe sermon is going to be
focused on Scripture, on whatGod's Word is saying, and we're
going to be edified as believersfrom what it said.
Non-believers can still beedified, but there should still
be, like we were talking about,a portion of the message where
they hear the gospel and theycan become a believer.
So it's both and, but I'm goingto lean more towards the
believer who's coming everysingle Sunday so that they're
(22:43):
not just coming and hearingChrist died for them.
That's great that they'rehearing it.
I want them to hear that onrepeat.
But at the same time, like weneed to be fed meat, not just
milk.
That makes sense, like Paultalks about.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So what Zeke is saying, I'm going to exaggerate
it as well.
One of the other models is thechurch is for serious believers
who want to grow, and that theinteraction Christians should
have with nonbelievers and thecurious should be people in
their own private lives.
So in this model, come together, you dive into the meat of
(23:17):
things, deeper theology, andthen the seeker-sensitive,
inviting people in.
That needs to be individualChristians in their own private
lives, and so that's more doneon that end.
So, ezekiel, you raise yourhand.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, I was going to say that you kind of hit my
point of if someone comes backand says, okay, well, how are
the new believers going to getrich?
Well, one already said thatthere should be a gospel
presentation in every sermon.
But even if that wasn't thecase, like if new believers
aren't coming to faith, that'son us.
Like, there's typically one ortwo pastors for a church I mean,
(23:53):
some have more, whatever butthere's only one person speaking
at the church one day a week.
There's six other days of theweek that the people who are
listening to him should be goingout and preaching to
nonbelievers as well.
So if we're not getting newbelievers, that comes on us, not
just the pastor, it's both.
Dan.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
One number I saw that was very discouraging, but it
just.
I don't have the number infront of me so I'm not going to
quote it exactly.
But what it basically says isvery few people evangelize as
Christians.
Very few people, from pastorsto lay leaders to church members
(24:29):
.
It's not something we do, andso sometimes we like to put all
the pressure on the church.
The church service should haveeverything in it, and then what
that does is that absolves mefrom all responsibility, because
the pastor should be sharingthe gospel.
There should be good theologyfrom the Sunday school teacher.
Me in my private life, I don'thave to do nothing, and so we
(24:53):
want to avoid that as well.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I'm curious as to what y'all think about this.
You said we leave it up to thechurch and I think that kind of
gets to the heart of what I'mnot saying.
You believe this.
I'm saying that a lot ofChristians, whenever they think
of quote, unquote the church,they think of like a specific
building but if we're beinghonest, like it was never
described as a building inscripture.
It was described as a peopleacross all time and space, so
(25:17):
like if it's the church's job.
What we should mean is thatit's our job, if we're a part of
the church.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Any pushback on that?
No good thoughts.
It's the people.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It's really easy to, because it's the gathering, it's
people, it's really easy to sayoh, I'm going to church or I'm
going to do something at thechurch, but like and I do the
same thing, like it's just a waythat I think we've kind of
fallen away from what the churchreally is when we think of it
purely as a place that we go.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Yeah, a place that we go there.
That's something I've been kindof struggling with here
recently and I don't know why.
I don't know why God has kindof put it on my heart but that,
you know, the church does have alot of responsibility and it's
the people, it's the body.
That's what the church is.
And I heard an interestingvideo where it's like you know,
people today are too comfortablewith God's grace if that makes
(26:05):
sense, Like we, we are socomfortable with God's grace so
we should take it away.
No, no, but I do think we canabuse it.
We get to the point where it'slike, well, God will just keep
forgiving me, God will keeploving me, and it takes away our
and it shouldn't even be calleda responsibility.
As a Christian, it literally isa joy to go out.
I've tried to change mylanguage on that.
(26:26):
It's not our job to go out andevangelize my language on that.
It's not our job to go out andevangelize.
It is our joy to go out andevangelize because the things
that Christ did for us like itwasn't Christ's job to get up on
the cross, he did it because heloved us.
It was a joy for him tosacrifice himself in the sense
of not like joy, like he waslike, oh happy.
We obviously went through atremendous amount of suffering
and pain, but it's that love forus.
(26:47):
It was never out of obligation,it was.
I love you so much.
This is the only way we shouldreciprocate that and I think as
Christians that's why we areseeing such a decline in the
church and in the body is wemake it too much an obligation
rather than a joy.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I know we're getting a little off topic.
The only thing I'll say on.
It is just, I think you'reright.
I think you can back that uptoo with what Paul said of like
I think it was Romans where he'slike well, someone, he's
pretending to have an argumentwith someone, like to make a
point.
He's like but what to theperson who says like you know, I
can just keep on sending,because grace will just abound
more and more, and he's like no,stupid, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm paraphrasing God forbid.
Now, those are good thoughtsthat ultimately it's so easy to
look to others to say, hey, theycan do the work, but ultimately
God, god saved you.
So you have giftings, you havetalents, you have abilities.
God placed you with yourfriends and family, your
(27:48):
co-workers, fellow students,wherever you're at that.
Nobody else has your unique mixof a situation.
You're in your giftings and therest of it, and so that's very
important.
We often like to point toothers, but we got to look in
the mirror first.
But good, good thoughts, goodcomments all around.
Anything on the two broadtopics we covered Y'all want to
(28:10):
revisit or Blake when it comesto modesty.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
I wanted to mention this.
I think it's in 1st or 2ndCorinthians.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It was actually in 3rd Corinthians.
Oh, no, not the 3rd Corinthians.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
But for believers, at least when it comes to modesty,
we always want to think aboutthe nonbelievers, like the other
people setting the example.
But I think sometimes where wecan fall short sometimes is we
forget that we can cause peopleto stumble as well in the
choices that we make, andclothing can very much be like
that.
So if you're trying, likeMackenzie said, as a wife and a
mother, she might like thisdress.
(28:43):
It might be really pretty, butshe knows wearing it pretty in
the sense of a worldly sense,knows wearing it is pretty in
the sense of a worldly sense,but she knows wearing it might
give the wrong idea to maybesome young Christians or maybe
some non-believers as well.
So, just as Paul says, eatingmeat is not bad, but if we eat
meat and it causes someone tostumble, if it causes your
(29:04):
brother to stumble I'mparaphrasing Nate can edit this
and talk about the verse, butI'm horribly butchering this.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
No, no, don't cause your brother to stumble, which
is what I was going to get at.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Editing Nate here.
Blake actually meant.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
The whole meat-eating thing it's based on, if you
know the context.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
First Corinthians.
Yeah, yeah, first Corinthians,yeah, hey, blake, you did good.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You did good.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Thanks, good boy boy thanks, oh uh, mackenzie, you
can keep.
You can say what you're goingto say.
I wanted to kind of rephrasethe question of, as women in the
church today who are believers,how do you use discernment into
if someone, if a young girl,was coming to you of like, okay,
I want to be modest, but like,how?
Like, what's, what guideline,what standard, what discernment
(29:47):
can I use to know if I'm beingmodest or in modest, how would
you help that young lady?
Speaker 6 (29:54):
That's a great question and, like I said, as
women, I think there is aspecial place for us to guide
younger girls and others who maynot know as much, like you said
, on how to do it.
And the first thing I would sayis that modesty, it comes from
your heart, like it's not justabout wearing.
You know clothes because youhave to, or you know all this
(30:17):
stuff that's where you can getinto the legalism side of it,
but it comes from a place ofsaying you know, the Lord
created my body and he createdit for a specific purpose and
out of respect for my husband,for my children, for others.
I'm going to dress in a waywhere I can go about my daily
life and not have to worry about.
You know, something that'smeant for a specific person to
(30:39):
see would be exposed.
And so for me, because I meanjust five years ago, I feel like
I wouldn't wear some of thestuff you know that I did then
and I'm sure five years from nowI wouldn't wear some of the
stuff I'm wearing now, maybebecause it is so personal and
there's different reasons.
It may not be just revealing,but maybe wearing this dress
(31:01):
makes me feel prideful about mybody like makes me want to show
it off in a way, if that makessense and that in fact you know
that, that it comes withdiscernment over time that says,
okay, I'm, I'm going to donatethat one or I'm going to put
that one away.
But, um, for younger girls, Ithink, just asking yourself the
(31:22):
question of um, you know, isthis dress or this shirt
appropriate in most situations?
So if I've been down, would Ibe worried about it?
Or if I, you know, go to Idon't know, give somebody a hug
or something like practicalthings like that of is it going
to reveal something?
But also, like I said, of, isthis glorifying God, even if
(31:45):
it's, you know, not terriblyrevealing?
Like maybe it's past myfingertips, but am I going to be
sitting here thinking like, oh,I wonder if they're looking at
me, or something like that?
I think those are kind of thequestions you've got to ask.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think those are good thoughts, and so I'll add a
couple things.
Yes, we want to be modest withour clothing choices, but also,
I guess on the male side, it'sboth together.
Men are responsible, women too,but you're responsible for your
eyes and where you look andwhat you do with those thoughts.
(32:20):
We all know the differencebetween you know, as humans, we
have a survival instinct.
You see something, you're goingto have a response to it.
But particularly with gentlemen, you know there's a look that's
natural and then there's acoming back for more.
So men are responsible forself-control, women are
(32:43):
everyone's responsible forself-control.
Everyone's responsible formodesty.
Then I guess what I'll also addon the modest end.
Yes, it matters the amount ofskin you show and tightness of
clothing.
But also this goes back to 1Timothy there was a type of
modesty when it came toflaunting wealth that in those
(33:03):
days you could have certainhairstyles that showed people,
oh, this person's really rich.
Or whether it's the clothing,whether it's purses, whether
it's hairstyles, and the goalwas I'm going to wear certain
things, I'm going to do my haira certain way to show that I'm
really rich, and it was kind oflike a status symbol, and Paul
(33:23):
called that.
That was immodest as well.
So, with modesty, yes, it'sclothing, but it's also the way
you carry yourself, um, for forguys it might be a car that if
you get some sort of sports caror rolex watch, you do it to
communicate to others.
Look how rich I am.
(33:43):
That's also immodest.
And so, uh, yeah, what's itcalled?
Uh, the shudor sanders.
Oh, my gosh, dude, he has thiscelebration about.
You know, he has a really nicewatch, and so he does this.
For those of you not watching,the celebration is just pointing
to your wrist, but anyways, andso that's a level of immodesty
as well.
So it's more than clothing,it's more than skin.
(34:05):
Ultimately, it comes back towhat Mackenzie's saying it is a
mindset, it's a heart set oftrying to glorify God as opposed
to drawing attention toyourself.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Blake, that's a great point.
And also, too, if you're aChristian and you just heard all
that don't think, if you happento be a wealthy Christian, that
all of a sudden you're just aterrible person.
You are, but you are, though,but you are.
But the main thing is because Ialways think about that,
because sometimes I fight myselfand I'm like I want a truck,
(34:38):
and trucks are expensive, anddepending on what truck you get,
it could flaunt wealth, but Ihave to remind myself it's like
one.
What is the reason why I need atruck?
Use a sermon on that.
I guess what I'm just trying tosay is don't like use what you
have.
If you happen to be a wealthyChristian or you happen to be
like a physically whatever it issomething that could be used
(35:00):
for pride, always just give itback to Christ and just try to
live like a humble lifestyle.
Like, don't always try to likeflaunt your wealth.
I guess Don't always try toflaunt your wealth.
I guess Also, don't get in yourhead about it either.
Just be humble.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Do whatever you want is what we're saying.
Anyways, good thoughts, blake,alright, y'all, anything
finishing the conversation,anything y'all want to share?
Alright, who wants to do thelast few seconds of the show to
sign us off?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Blake does it every time.
He's a fan favorite.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
He is a fan favorite.
You know what, mariah?
You've been quiet the secondhalf of the episode.
What so?
Close us out, mariah.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Okay, bye, everybody, stay groovy.
Are you kidding me?
Are we really going to end onthat?
Speaker 4 (35:46):
No, there's a guy.
His name is Paul.
I'm not going to say his lastname.
He claims to be white.
He is not.
He's Italian.
Don't let him fool you.
Don't let him fool you.
Paul, if you're listening tothis, we're on to you.
If Isaac was in here, he'd backme up.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You know white refers to Europeans.
Don't get me started.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
We had a huge conversation European, don't get
me started.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
We had a huge conversation.
Where do you think Italy isZeke?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
help me out here.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
No, I'm talking about American white.
You're by yourself, buddy,american white.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Paul's not American white.
He's white but he's mixed, buthe's trying to blend in with us.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There's no such thing as American white.
Yes, there is, I'm Americanwhite, we're American white.
(36:53):
We came from Europe.
We are American white, you'renot you.
We can, yes, we can.
Can y'all talk on your end?
Speaker 6 (37:14):
Yes, we can, yes, we can.
We can talk on our end.
We can talk on our end.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I thought you were going to hit us with the Dr
Susan.
I was about to.
Yes, we can.
Yes, we can.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
I do not like green eggs.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I do not like green eggs in ham.
Oh my gosh, he's yawning.
Look, he's so cute, sam, I am.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Sam I am.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
And then he tries them.
I hope this helps, but we're ontrap.
Yeah, dude, I read that bookfor the first time not too long
ago.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Is he what?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Is he an Asian Isaac's?
Never had green eggs and ham,did you know Mickey was?
Speaker 4 (37:37):
gonna eat them.
They look great, don't they?
I'd eat those green eggs andham.
Have you never had them?
We had some fat kid ate all thegreen eggs and ham, Was it you?
No?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I didn't get a green egg, what?
But Fatty McFatterson, I'venever had green ham, I've just
had green eggs.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Are you fat-shaming people?
I?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
am.
Was the ham green?
Speaker 4 (37:59):
in the book.
Yeah, the ham was green.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Green eggs.
Is the ham also green?
I don't think the ham is green.
Y'all can look up Google Images.
I don't think the ham is green.
Y'all can look up Google images.
I don't think the ham is green.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It's just green eggs.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Why are they green?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, the little fat kid ate all the green eggs.
In today's episode, we'll betalking about green eggs and the
ham.
Green eggs and ham.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Do you think the ham is green?
This?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
episode is brought to you by ButcherBox.
Butcherbox.
Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast.
We have the team here with meBlake, chloe, zeke, isaac,
mackenzie and Mariah, and thenwe also have our new mascot,
archie.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're not going to use a person as a mascot.
Zeke forgot to include johnisaac.
Yeah, you always forget toinclude him.
Just because he's smaller andless developed doesn't mean he's
not a human.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I thought when I said mascot, you were roasting john
isaac and you were pointing tojohn isaac.
All right, so archie is ourmascot, john Isaac is with us as
well, and we are talking aboutmodesty in the church and then
we'll goest, you know, which iswearing certain kind of clothing
or lack of clothing, that thechurch leaders need to confront
(00:55):
her quickly, strongly, and Iguess I'd have to relook at the
(01:16):
tweet, but maybe leave or justhandle the situation very
quickly.
So I want to open it up toy'all.
Modesty in the church.
If someone walks in, all right,and let's say they're wearing
vulgar clothing picture, image,phrase or they're very immodest,
they're showing a lot of skinor whatever.
This could be male or femalehow do we address that?
(01:40):
What do we do?
We'll just jump right into it.
Thoughts there, mariah.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think it depends if you're a believer or not,
because a lost person is goingto act like a lost person.
So therefore, I feel likethey're not held to the same
standards as believers.
So in that, since they wouldn'tknow, I don't think we should
say anything.
Maybe just not the way youwould handle it to a believer,
(02:04):
you'd handle it differently.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So maybe see what the status of their faith is.
Are they a new believer?
Are they searching?
Are they a non-believer?
Try to figure out where they'reat.
Okay, so that's Mariah Zeke.
What about you?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I'm going to say I agree with Mariah but you
mentioned vulgar or poor choiceof what's on the shirt, not
necessarily like lack ofclothing, but what's on the
clothing, yeah.
So if it was the case like thatI'm I'm gonna be a little bit
more strict of if it wassomething like inherently
blasphemous and like it'sobvious, like they know good and
well like what it meant, andthey're choosing to come to
church, I would probably saythat would be a situation where,
like you take them aside, likehey look, we're glad that you're
here, but that's just reallydisrespectful, not to us but to
(02:48):
the God we worship, and we'dappreciate if you didn't wear
that in the house, if I don'tknow.
That's where each church canhave discernment, choose what to
do from there, but I think thatshould be like a.
That's at least one of the hardlines I would draw in this
conversation.
We can get into others later.
One of the hard lines I woulddraw in this conversation and we
can get into others later.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
So maybe an image itself.
You'd be a little bit strongerNow.
What about?
People have different thoughtson modesty.
So a nonbeliever might not knowor think about things in
certain ways, whereas if you'vebeen a believer for a long time
you might have more thoughts onmodesty.
So what if?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
someone is.
They're coming into the churchand they tend to oh there, john
isaac goes.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
That's why he thinks about your voice.
Yes, uh, voice, and, as theysay, I have a face for radio.
Um, and the whole, the wholepackage really, but anyways.
So, um, someone comes into thechurch.
Any other thoughts?
Let's say a lady or a man, I,man, this doesn't necessarily
have to be a genderedconversation.
They are excessively immodestto the point of making some
(03:53):
people uncomfortable.
Mariah had her thoughts.
Zeke jumped in about maybe animage he'd be strong against
Blake.
I would kind of against Blake.
Speaker 4 (04:03):
I would kind of if it was like super immodest, like
if a lady or a guy came in andthey were showing like a ton of
skin, even if they were anunbeliever.
It's kind of like with Zekewe're glad you're here, but you
do understand what you're cominginto.
It's not like you're cominginto a club, You're not coming
into a restaurant.
(04:24):
You are coming into a place ofworship and we live in a society
where everybody knows what's tobe expected of our church.
And it is true you can saymaybe not, but with social media
and everything and how thechurch has been put on blast, we
do live in an age and a timewhere people do understand what
is asked of them when it comesto the faith.
So I would say, if they'reshowing excessive amount of skin
(04:45):
, I would say, hey, we need tocover up or something.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
Yeah, and I think it also would depend on if it's
their first time there, versusthey've been going there for
years and they've been fine thewhole time, but then they show
up one Sunday wearing thisreally provocative outfit.
And also if they're a member ora non-member maybe, because I
feel like most churches well, Imean churches should anyways lay
out, you know, their certainstandards for the church, like
(05:14):
not telling them what to wear,obviously, but just like guiding
them in that.
But so they could do some otheralternative, like if they see
something like that, maybe justbe like hey, we have a t-shirt
in the back, would you mind justthrowing that on, because we
don't think what you're wearingis appropriate for, um, where we
are and what we're doing um,I'm just gonna say, like, based
(05:37):
off experience wise, I very,very rarely have seen somebody
come in immodestly that likehasn't been going for a while.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
A lot of what I see is young girls wearing very,
very short skirts, and I thinkthat's where the parents should
come in and say hey, you know,we're going to church, let's put
I mean, put on jeans orsomething, but very rarely do I
see somebody coming in off thestreet, you know, like in a
spaghetti strap, tank top oreven something like that.
(06:07):
Like, I think most people arepretty respectful, but as a
woman in the church, I feel likeI should set the example so
that younger girls see that andthen also their mothers should
say hey, we're not wearing thatas church.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, I'm with Mackenzie and Chloe in the sense
of like, if we go to theextremes, I just don't see the
extremes happening, and maybethat's just because I'm in my
own little bubble, but I feellike it would be a big, maybe
not, I don't know.
I just can't imagine someonewalking into a church with, like
, a bikini on.
I feel like you only do that ifyou're literally trying to make
a statement.
(06:41):
But I do think if we got moreon the topic of what McKenzie
just said, of like things thatare not necessarily that
revealing but they're still,like, very unwise, to be fair,
it's really unwise to be atleast going to church and
something like that, and to befair, I would probably go along
the lines of, if I had adaughter, I wouldn't want her
dressing like that in publicanyways, like, just regardless
(07:03):
of the church.
I think there's it's a biggerconversation of just modesty in
general that I I don't want tobe too strict because in a sense
, like, if I was strict enough,I would say that none of us
today would be welcomed into thechurch, you know, 2 000 years
ago or whatever, compared totheir cultural standards, but at
the same time, like thatdoesn't mean we throw out every
standard.
I think there still should besome kind of cultural guideline
(07:24):
to where we say at this pointit's too far, and that's where
I'm not sure.
But I'm open to hear what y'allthink about that.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
This was kind of like a it still has to do with
modesty, but what if we flippedit on its head and we can still
stay in this conversation?
But I was thinking what if aguy walks into the church high
heels, fish the church highheels, fishnets, dress that
comes to his knees?
Oh yeah, how do we feel about?
How do we feel about that?
Or like if a girl comes in bluejeans, boots, blazer, dressed
(07:54):
like a dude, guy dresses like agirl, girl dresses like a guy,
how do we feel about that ifthey walk into the church?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I still think, uh, I I would say, if it's still, if
it's someone that's anonbeliever, maybe they're new
and don't?
They're just there to getChrist.
It's not our place to, I think,like say anything, although we
disagree, and maybe you know Iwouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, I would be more graceful for like, like a
better word First time offender,someone who's not a Christian,
and this lack of a better wordfirst time offender, someone
who's not a Christian, and thisis like the first time they've
ever been there.
Yeah, if they keep coming backand it becomes a reoccurring
thing, like hey, no, she didn'tcome in.
And like they come to smallgroups, they see everyone else
dressed more appropriate, likeif this is a common thing,
someone close to them needs totalk to them.
And if that person, someoneclose to him, won't, then you
(08:43):
know, maybe someone like aleader or a whether it could be
a sunday school leader orsomeone, someone in church that
was that's in their group go upto them or someone they know
like hey, I've noticed so and soconstantly wears inappropriate
stuff.
Like you know, we want her here, but like, can she not?
He or she?
Yeah, y'all said guy or girllike he or she, can they not do
that?
I say I keep saying she becausewe all know that it's probably
(09:05):
more common for it to be girl,because guys, it's just a
cultural thing for us, like guysaren't going to be as commonly
revealing.
I'm not saying that's a badthing on girls, I'm just saying
our culture has gone that wayand that's just how it is.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
And I will say too, modesty is very personal, where
most of the time you have to beconvicted by the Holy Spirit,
because there may be somedresses that I wear that
wouldn't be considered immodest,but you know, immodest to
culture.
But to me, as a wife and aChristian and a mom, now I would
(09:40):
think it would be you know toorevealing, or you know one wrong
move, and I would think itwould be, um, you know too
revealing, or you know one wrongmove, and I do think it's
personal and the Holy spiritguides us to like I think there
are certain situations where weshould step in but, um, you know
, but I think over time as youmature, you get that discernment
(10:03):
too.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Something I've a common response from.
More the grace side of thingsis this yes, maybe people
they're wearing things theyshouldn't.
Maybe something is a little bitmore immodest, maybe shows a
lot of this or that or whatever.
Immodest, maybe shows a lot ofthis or that or whatever.
(10:28):
But we want people to be inrelationship before we get to
the rules, right.
So the thought is, those who goto this side, they're more well
, don't say anything, let themdo what they're going to do and
then, as sanctification goes on,week after week, month after
month, year after year, they'llhave some of that Holy Spirit
conviction.
So their argument would besomeone comes in wearing
(10:50):
whatever they're wearing, don'tsay anything and let it come up
naturally, organically.
Or maybe there's a sermon onthe topic, there's a Bible study
on the topic, and they'll learnthese things on their own.
What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 6 (11:07):
Yeah, yeah, I think I agree with that and I will say
that modesty, especially likeZeke said, like it tends to
cater more towards women becauseof our culture, you know, women
are more over-sexualized.
Culture with you know, womenare more over-sexualized when
you realize that God has createdus women to be feminine.
But to you know, coverourselves so that we save
(11:31):
ourselves for our husband.
It's a beautiful thing, likeit's not a legalistic thing.
It's a thing you naturally wantto do over time.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, any more thoughts on this area?
I could run through a coupledifferent scenarios.
Another one I think of iscussing.
Let's, say someone comes in newbeliever, unbeliever, or just
they're interested, they'recurious and maybe their language
isn't the way that Christiansmight generally talk so loud,
(12:02):
rude, cussing but they're inchurch, same rule, or how do you
all imagine that?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Let's say kids are around.
Well, if it's kids around, itdoesn't matter if it's in church
or not.
If it's someone I know, I'mgoing to ask them.
Hey, can you not do this aroundkids?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
What if you don't know the person?
It's more of a stranger.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It depends on the situation, like if there's like,
even at the park, like we'vebeen to the park, I call out
people that's gonna say, at thepark sometimes we'll be playing
pickleball and they have abasketball court right next to
it where we play, and it's afamily park, like they have a
playground where kids can comeplay and stuff like that and
they'll have loud blaring musicwith a bunch of cuss words and
blake will, most time he heyguys, he doesn't know him.
He's like can y'all turn thatdown?
There's kids over here.
No to be fair.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
I know all those guys on the basketball court, so
that's why I say it.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
So you wouldn't if it was strangers.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
No, I probably would end up saying something.
It's just, I'm more comfortablebecause and I have, I've asked
total strangers especially youturn that down Like.
I'm not trying to like cause Iknow it.
Some people say, well, it'sfree, whatever's free speech,
free whatever.
But yeah, but it's not but I'mlike okay, I'm not trying to say
(13:08):
, I'm not trying to take thatright away.
You can listen to whatever youwant to but I just don't court
and we have, you know, theirparents bring their kids just to
sit and watch.
I hate it.
Even when we're playingpickleball, if someone's on the
pickleball court, it's not eventhe basketball court and they
miss a shot and they go like ohblank blank.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I'm like dude, there's no don't say that you
know, don't say that in front ofthe kids.
Yeah, now I'm going to offerthe counter argument again.
Okay, so you say, say, hey,watch your language, don't.
Maybe don't use these certainwords and all the stuff.
But then what if someone sayswhat if that's their only
opportunity to hear the gospel?
(13:49):
What if that's their first timein a church?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
how does me what if?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
what if you know they're?
They're doing that and thefirst thing they encounter now
this again just playing devil'sI know y'all love that phrase,
devil's advocate.
The thought is, well, we'll beknown for our rules instead of
known to welcome them in to hearJesus.
So thoughts on that response.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
That's the first thing.
They kind of my answer doesn'treally change, because they can
hear the gospel and we're notsaying that they can't be saved,
like if that was—they got upsetabout that.
We could go outside and talkabout it, like if I'm polite,
and ask like hey, there's kidsaround, could you just not cuss
around?
I don't feel like anyone'sgoing to come off like oh, so
(14:38):
you're saying I can't be aChristian or not.
It's just I don't want littlekids having to hear this kind of
stuff.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, I think it depends on our approach.
I kind of agree with that.
I don't know, if we're comingat it in an aggressive way and
telling them off, they wouldthink of it differently than
just be like, hey, maybe thisisn't a wise thing.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yeah, I mean I, I agree, I saw a video.
That's what I was going tobring up.
I saw a video of a guy.
It was like a homeless guy.
He walked into church and heevery time the pastor would say
it was a mega church, by the way, so it was a lot of people.
I know the one you're talkingabout yeah, and the guy, just
like every time the pastor wouldsay something, he would just
dog cuss like whatever, not in abad way, not in a bad way.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Uh, he would be like we would say like amen, and keep
preaching, and he'd be like,yeah, instead of that, he would
do it with but, but they brought, but they brought him up and it
was really like they stoppedthe sermon.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Yeah, they stopped it .
They stopped the sermon andthey brought him up to the front
and they ended up having thisbeautiful moment because they
didn't condemn him, necessarily,but they just asked.
You know, they asked him abouta story and then they brought
other people, they brought acouple people up to share their
testimony.
Are we, I saying, are wethinking of the right video?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, if it's the same one.
He essentially brought him upand the pastor was like hey man,
what's your name?
And then, uh, he told him he'slike I love your energy.
I'm glad that you're here.
I think God wanted you here.
And then he found out that oneof the church member picked him.
We're not going to cuss duringthe sermon.
We can talk about that later.
(16:00):
I'm glad you're here.
Let's just kind of keep thecussing down.
Then he got to share histestimony and stuff like that,
and it was kind of a beautifulmoment.
Yeah, it was a huge moment whereChrist— he could have easily
called him out and said hey,security, get this guy out of
here, Right?
Speaker 4 (16:18):
But instead he chose to meet him.
We lose grace, and so it's upto us, as Christians, to show
the same grace that Jesus Christshowed us.
But we also have to do standfor truth, so we can't just
totally let everything slip by.
If that makes sense, even ifthey are just a first-time
offender, we do need to havethat sort of maturity about us
to be able to handle thosesituations that might be
uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Yeah, just piggy and back Piggy.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Piggy.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Backing on the pig.
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Anyways, in my experience I have had somebody
let a cuss word slip and theywould imagine me to condemn them
immediately and judge them.
But I think offered that gracebecause you have to think people
usually cuss habitually, likeit's not something.
A lot of people don't just doit like one.
You know once in a while Peoplewho cuss, they do it every day,
in every, almost every sentence.
So when they come to church andthey're trying to be on their
(17:19):
best behavior but they do let itslip one time, like I think
they would expect us to be likehow dare you, you know, get out
of here.
But when you're like, that'sokay, you know, I see what
you're trying to do and I knowyou're trying to be better and
it's okay, you know.
I think that shows thecharacter of God too.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah, I think those are good thoughts.
You do want to protect, let'ssay, little ears, and cussing by
its nature is vulgar, but atthe same time you recognize this
is a precious soul in front ofyou.
You want to love and stewardthem and hopefully they're able
to hear the gospel through yourchurch service.
So I guess if y'all have anymore scenarios like that, we can
(18:04):
go over it.
I thought of clothing and Ithought of cussing, and I'm sure
there are more out there.
But unless y'all want to dothat and I'm open to it, we can
move to the second part of thetopic, which is when the local
church gathers together.
Who is it for?
Is it for non-believers, thosewho are curious, maybe new
(18:26):
believers?
Or is the local churchgathering for serious believers
that want to go deeper and growin their faith?
And so, when it comes tocreating a church service, who
do you gear it towards?
Lots of different church modelsout there that try to do one
both the other, just interestedin knowing your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
I would say it's for both, both people who are saved
and people who aren't yet.
And something I've alwaysreally liked about our pastor is
he will always give some kindof gospel presentation at the
end of each service.
So if there are people who arenot saved or not believers, then
they have the opportunity to dothat.
(19:10):
But you know, Jesus said thatgosh I'm probably going to
misquote this so bad, but it'slike he didn't come to heal the
healthy people, Like he came toheal the sick and so like we're
all sick in nature and we allneed that, and that's kind of
(19:30):
like what the church is, Likewe're all sick, but we're all
going to meet with God.
Speaker 4 (19:35):
Yeah, so you're saying, chloe, that I'm sick or
you're sick.
You're just not as sick as me.
So therefore, you're betterthan me.
Yes.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
It's verbatim what she said Unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Yeah, I think too.
Like you mentioned differentchurch models, I think the
church is definitely for bothand there's room for both
scenarios in every church.
So every you know every sermonwhere somebody who's just coming
off the street, like you said,the gospel should be presented
every single Sunday.
That way it's, for that meets,you know, really often and where
(20:25):
we get to grow all together.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Maybe dive deeper and ask more questions that you
can't really ask questionsduring a sermon.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So there are some churches that that's what they
do.
They might take what you'resaying to an extreme, but
they'll take the service andgear it towards nonbelievers and
new believers and then they'lldirect people.
If you want to go deeper inyour faith, go to one of small
groups of Bible study, somethinglike that.
(20:59):
They might take what you're allsaying, exaggerate it.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Zeke, yeah, I was going to say there's a really
good video.
It was called the Elephant Roomand I don't know who came up
with that idea, but I don't knowwhy they never did it again.
They did it one other time.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I don't know why they didn't do it.
I love the Elephant Room, butwhat happened is, unfortunately,
many of those pastors fell toscandal.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, we need it with pastors who haven't fell to
scandal.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Anywho, zeke, you can put it together.
Nate, I haven't fallen toscandal yet.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
He said pastors who haven't and then you pointed to
him, and then I pointed to youGosh, wow, all right, here's a
scandal.
Nate beats me Just inbasketball.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Well Nate also edits the video.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
know that video?
They did a bunch of series or abunch of small videos with
popular pastors and one of themwas Matt Chandler and Stephen
Furtick and they took twodifferent sides.
Matt Chandler took the churchis for the believers and Stephen
Furtick took the church is fornewcomers, and I think obviously
(22:02):
I agree with Matt Chandler.
I'm going to be a little bitmore strict than the 50-50 that
we've kind of been talking about.
It's for both.
I think its main purpose is forbelievers.
However, they should alwayshave non-believers in mind.
So if I'm splitting it up, I'mgoing to say around 70-30, 80-20
.
(22:23):
What I mean by that is, most ofthe sermon is going to be
focused on Scripture, on whatGod's Word is saying, and we're
going to be edified as believersfrom what it said.
Non-believers can still beedified, but there should still
be, like we were talking about,a portion of the message where
they hear the gospel and theycan become a believer.
So it's both and, but I'm goingto lean more towards the
believer who's coming everysingle Sunday so that they're
(22:43):
not just coming and hearingChrist died for them.
That's great that they'rehearing it.
I want them to hear that onrepeat.
But at the same time, like weneed to be fed meat, not just
milk.
That makes sense, like Paultalks about.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
So what Zeke is saying, I'm going to exaggerate
it as well.
One of the other models is thechurch is for serious believers
who want to grow, and that theinteraction Christians should
have with nonbelievers and thecurious should be people in
their own private lives.
So in this model, come together, you dive into the meat of
(23:17):
things, deeper theology, andthen the seeker-sensitive,
inviting people in.
That needs to be individualChristians in their own private
lives, and so that's more doneon that end.
So, ezekiel, you raise yourhand.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, I was going to say that you kind of hit my
point of if someone comes backand says, okay, well, how are
the new believers going to getrich?
Well, one already said thatthere should be a gospel
presentation in every sermon.
But even if that wasn't thecase, like if new believers
aren't coming to faith, that'son us.
Like, there's typically one ortwo pastors for a church I mean,
(23:53):
some have more, whatever butthere's only one person speaking
at the church one day a week.
There's six other days of theweek that the people who are
listening to him should be goingout and preaching to
nonbelievers as well.
So if we're not getting newbelievers, that comes on us, not
just the pastor, it's both.
Dan.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
One number I saw that was very discouraging, but it
just.
I don't have the number infront of me so I'm not going to
quote it exactly.
But what it basically says isvery few people evangelize as
Christians.
Very few people, from pastorsto lay leaders to church members
(24:29):
.
It's not something we do, andso sometimes we like to put all
the pressure on the church.
The church service should haveeverything in it, and then what
that does is that absolves mefrom all responsibility, because
the pastor should be sharingthe gospel.
There should be good theologyfrom the Sunday school teacher.
Me in my private life, I don'thave to do nothing, and so we
(24:53):
want to avoid that as well.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I'm curious as to what y'all think about this.
You said we leave it up to thechurch and I think that kind of
gets to the heart of what I'mnot saying.
You believe this.
I'm saying that a lot ofChristians, whenever they think
of quote, unquote the church,they think of like a specific
building but if we're beinghonest, like it was never
described as a building inscripture.
It was described as a peopleacross all time and space, so
(25:17):
like if it's the church's job.
What we should mean is thatit's our job, if we're a part of
the church.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Any pushback on that?
No good thoughts.
It's the people.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It's really easy to, because it's the gathering, it's
people, it's really easy to sayoh, I'm going to church or I'm
going to do something at thechurch, but like and I do the
same thing, like it's just a waythat I think we've kind of
fallen away from what the churchreally is when we think of it
purely as a place that we go.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
Yeah, a place that we go there.
That's something I've been kindof struggling with here
recently and I don't know why.
I don't know why God has kindof put it on my heart but that,
you know, the church does have alot of responsibility and it's
the people, it's the body.
That's what the church is.
And I heard an interestingvideo where it's like you know,
people today are too comfortablewith God's grace if that makes
(26:05):
sense, Like we, we are socomfortable with God's grace so
we should take it away.
No, no, but I do think we canabuse it.
We get to the point where it'slike, well, God will just keep
forgiving me, God will keeploving me, and it takes away our
and it shouldn't even be calleda responsibility.
As a Christian, it literally isa joy to go out.
I've tried to change mylanguage on that.
(26:26):
It's not our job to go out andevangelize my language on that.
It's not our job to go out andevangelize.
It is our joy to go out andevangelize because the things
that Christ did for us like itwasn't Christ's job to get up on
the cross, he did it because heloved us.
It was a joy for him tosacrifice himself in the sense
of not like joy, like he waslike, oh happy.
We obviously went through atremendous amount of suffering
and pain, but it's that love forus.
(26:47):
It was never out of obligation,it was.
I love you so much.
This is the only way we shouldreciprocate that and I think as
Christians that's why we areseeing such a decline in the
church and in the body is wemake it too much an obligation
rather than a joy.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I know we're getting a little off topic.
The only thing I'll say on.
It is just, I think you'reright.
I think you can back that uptoo with what Paul said of like
I think it was Romans where he'slike well, someone, he's
pretending to have an argumentwith someone, like to make a
point.
He's like but what to theperson who says like you know, I
can just keep on sending,because grace will just abound
more and more, and he's like no,stupid, don't do that.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm paraphrasing God forbid.
Now, those are good thoughtsthat ultimately it's so easy to
look to others to say, hey, theycan do the work, but ultimately
God, god saved you.
So you have giftings, you havetalents, you have abilities.
God placed you with yourfriends and family, your
(27:48):
co-workers, fellow students,wherever you're at that.
Nobody else has your unique mixof a situation.
You're in your giftings and therest of it, and so that's very
important.
We often like to point toothers, but we got to look in
the mirror first.
But good, good thoughts, goodcomments all around.
Anything on the two broadtopics we covered Y'all want to
(28:10):
revisit or Blake when it comesto modesty.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
I wanted to mention this.
I think it's in 1st or 2ndCorinthians.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It was actually in 3rd Corinthians.
Oh, no, not the 3rd Corinthians.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
But for believers, at least when it comes to modesty,
we always want to think aboutthe nonbelievers, like the other
people setting the example.
But I think sometimes where wecan fall short sometimes is we
forget that we can cause peopleto stumble as well in the
choices that we make, andclothing can very much be like
that.
So if you're trying, likeMackenzie said, as a wife and a
mother, she might like thisdress.
(28:43):
It might be really pretty, butshe knows wearing it pretty in
the sense of a worldly sense,knows wearing it is pretty in
the sense of a worldly sense,but she knows wearing it might
give the wrong idea to maybesome young Christians or maybe
some non-believers as well.
So, just as Paul says, eatingmeat is not bad, but if we eat
meat and it causes someone tostumble, if it causes your
(29:04):
brother to stumble I'mparaphrasing Nate can edit this
and talk about the verse, butI'm horribly butchering this.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
No, no, don't cause your brother to stumble, which
is what I was going to get at.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Editing Nate here.
Blake actually meant.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
The whole meat-eating thing it's based on, if you
know the context.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
First Corinthians.
Yeah, yeah, first Corinthians,yeah, hey, blake, you did good.
Speaker 4 (29:24):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
You did good.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Thanks, good boy boy thanks, oh uh, mackenzie, you
can keep.
You can say what you're goingto say.
I wanted to kind of rephrasethe question of, as women in the
church today who are believers,how do you use discernment into
if someone, if a young girl,was coming to you of like, okay,
I want to be modest, but like,how?
Like, what's, what guideline,what standard, what discernment
(29:47):
can I use to know if I'm beingmodest or in modest, how would
you help that young lady?
Speaker 6 (29:54):
That's a great question and, like I said, as
women, I think there is aspecial place for us to guide
younger girls and others who maynot know as much, like you said
, on how to do it.
And the first thing I would sayis that modesty, it comes from
your heart, like it's not justabout wearing.
You know clothes because youhave to, or you know all this
(30:17):
stuff that's where you can getinto the legalism side of it,
but it comes from a place ofsaying you know, the Lord
created my body and he createdit for a specific purpose and
out of respect for my husband,for my children, for others.
I'm going to dress in a waywhere I can go about my daily
life and not have to worry about.
You know, something that'smeant for a specific person to
(30:39):
see would be exposed.
And so for me, because I meanjust five years ago, I feel like
I wouldn't wear some of thestuff you know that I did then
and I'm sure five years from nowI wouldn't wear some of the
stuff I'm wearing now, maybebecause it is so personal and
there's different reasons.
It may not be just revealing,but maybe wearing this dress
(31:01):
makes me feel prideful about mybody like makes me want to show
it off in a way, if that makessense and that in fact you know
that, that it comes withdiscernment over time that says,
okay, I'm, I'm going to donatethat one or I'm going to put
that one away.
But, um, for younger girls, Ithink, just asking yourself the
(31:22):
question of um, you know, isthis dress or this shirt
appropriate in most situations?
So if I've been down, would Ibe worried about it?
Or if I, you know, go to Idon't know, give somebody a hug
or something like practicalthings like that of is it going
to reveal something?
But also, like I said, of, isthis glorifying God, even if
(31:45):
it's, you know, not terriblyrevealing?
Like maybe it's past myfingertips, but am I going to be
sitting here thinking like, oh,I wonder if they're looking at
me, or something like that?
I think those are kind of thequestions you've got to ask.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think those are good thoughts, and so I'll add a
couple things.
Yes, we want to be modest withour clothing choices, but also,
I guess on the male side, it'sboth together.
Men are responsible, women too,but you're responsible for your
eyes and where you look andwhat you do with those thoughts.
(32:20):
We all know the differencebetween you know, as humans, we
have a survival instinct.
You see something, you're goingto have a response to it.
But particularly with gentlemen, you know there's a look that's
natural and then there's acoming back for more.
So men are responsible forself-control, women are
(32:43):
everyone's responsible forself-control.
Everyone's responsible formodesty.
Then I guess what I'll also addon the modest end.
Yes, it matters the amount ofskin you show and tightness of
clothing.
But also this goes back to 1Timothy there was a type of
modesty when it came toflaunting wealth that in those
(33:03):
days you could have certainhairstyles that showed people,
oh, this person's really rich.
Or whether it's the clothing,whether it's purses, whether
it's hairstyles, and the goalwas I'm going to wear certain
things, I'm going to do my haira certain way to show that I'm
really rich, and it was kind oflike a status symbol, and Paul
(33:23):
called that.
That was immodest as well.
So, with modesty, yes, it'sclothing, but it's also the way
you carry yourself, um, for forguys it might be a car that if
you get some sort of sports caror rolex watch, you do it to
communicate to others.
Look how rich I am.
(33:43):
That's also immodest.
And so, uh, yeah, what's itcalled?
Uh, the shudor sanders.
Oh, my gosh, dude, he has thiscelebration about.
You know, he has a really nicewatch, and so he does this.
For those of you not watching,the celebration is just pointing
to your wrist, but anyways, andso that's a level of immodesty
as well.
So it's more than clothing,it's more than skin.
(34:05):
Ultimately, it comes back towhat Mackenzie's saying it is a
mindset, it's a heart set oftrying to glorify God as opposed
to drawing attention toyourself.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Blake, that's a great point.
And also, too, if you're aChristian and you just heard all
that don't think, if you happento be a wealthy Christian, that
all of a sudden you're just aterrible person.
You are, but you are, though,but you are.
But the main thing is because Ialways think about that,
because sometimes I fight myselfand I'm like I want a truck,
(34:38):
and trucks are expensive, anddepending on what truck you get,
it could flaunt wealth, but Ihave to remind myself it's like
one.
What is the reason why I need atruck?
Use a sermon on that.
I guess what I'm just trying tosay is don't like use what you
have.
If you happen to be a wealthyChristian or you happen to be
like a physically whatever it issomething that could be used
(35:00):
for pride, always just give itback to Christ and just try to
live like a humble lifestyle.
Like, don't always try to likeflaunt your wealth.
I guess Don't always try toflaunt your wealth.
I guess Also, don't get in yourhead about it either.
Just be humble.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Do whatever you want is what we're saying.
Anyways, good thoughts, blake,alright, y'all, anything
finishing the conversation,anything y'all want to share?
Alright, who wants to do thelast few seconds of the show to
sign us off?
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Blake does it every time.
He's a fan favorite.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
He is a fan favorite.
You know what, mariah?
You've been quiet the secondhalf of the episode.
What so?
Close us out, mariah.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Okay, bye, everybody, stay groovy.
Are you kidding me?
Are we really going to end onthat?
Speaker 4 (35:46):
No, there's a guy.
His name is Paul.
I'm not going to say his lastname.
He claims to be white.
He is not.
He's Italian.
Don't let him fool you.
Don't let him fool you.
Paul, if you're listening tothis, we're on to you.
If Isaac was in here, he'd backme up.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You know white refers to Europeans.
Don't get me started.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
We had a huge conversation European, don't get
me started.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
We had a huge conversation.
Where do you think Italy isZeke?
Speaker 4 (36:11):
help me out here.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
No, I'm talking about American white.
You're by yourself, buddy,american white.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Paul's not American white.
He's white but he's mixed, buthe's trying to blend in with us.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
There's no such thing as American white.
Yes, there is, I'm Americanwhite, we're American white.
(36:53):
We came from Europe.
We are American white, you'renot you.
We can, yes, we can.
Can y'all talk on your end?
Speaker 6 (37:14):
Yes, we can, yes, we can.
We can talk on our end.
We can talk on our end.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I thought you were going to hit us with the Dr
Susan.
I was about to.
Yes, we can.
Yes, we can.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
I do not like green eggs.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I do not like green eggs in ham.
Oh my gosh, he's yawning.
Look, he's so cute, sam, I am.
Speaker 4 (37:28):
Sam I am.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
And then he tries them.
I hope this helps, but we're ontrap.
Yeah, dude, I read that bookfor the first time not too long
ago.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Is he what?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Is he an Asian Isaac's?
Never had green eggs and ham,did you know Mickey was?
Speaker 4 (37:37):
gonna eat them.
They look great, don't they?
I'd eat those green eggs andham.
Have you never had them?
We had some fat kid ate all thegreen eggs and ham, Was it you?
No?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I didn't get a green egg, what?
But Fatty McFatterson, I'venever had green ham, I've just
had green eggs.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Are you fat-shaming people?
I?
Speaker 2 (37:57):
am.
Was the ham green?
Speaker 4 (37:59):
in the book.
Yeah, the ham was green.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Green eggs.
Is the ham also green?
I don't think the ham is green.
Y'all can look up Google Images.
I don't think the ham is green.
Y'all can look up Google images.
I don't think the ham is green.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It's just green eggs.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Why are they green?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Well, the little fat kid ate all the green eggs.
In today's episode, we'll betalking about green eggs and the
ham.
Green eggs and ham.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Do you think the ham is green?
This?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
episode is brought to you by ButcherBox.
Butcherbox.
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