Second Chances: From Prison to Purpose with Jon Antonucci

Episode Transcript
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Booda (00:29):
Ladies and gentlemen, you are now tuned into the ARCast.
Good morning, good afternoon,good evening wherever you are.
Ladies and gentlemen, this theARCast , and no, I know I've

(00:50):
said this once, but I'm going tosay it again.
Your ears are not lying to you,man.
We are back.
This is probably our firstepisode in almost a year.
I am so excited to be here.
I don't know if I introducedmyself.
My name is Buddha.
I'm so happy to be here withyou guys.
This is crazy, man.
I don't even remember whatepisode we left off at, but I
have an amazing one for youright now.

(01:11):
There's a lot of new thingsgoing on, a lot of new stuff.
The first thing I want to talkabout right now, though, before
we get started with this episode, is I want to introduce.
Like I said, everything is new,everything is new, so I got to
introduce my new officialco-host of the R-Cast.
I'm going to give you a second.
I'm going to let you guys tryand guess who this person is.

(01:33):
Okay, either he or her, whoeverit may be that's joining us.
They were on episode one.
They were on episode 50.
It is a true honor and ablessing from God that I'm
standing right here with thisperson and that this person is
going to be my new co-host.
Ladies and gentlemen, give itup to Ramon Benitez.
What up brother, what's upBuddha?
How you doing man.

Ray (01:51):
Doing well, thank you.

Booda (01:52):
This gentleman is killing it right now.
He has since parted from ARC,but he's got his own company,
Justice and Recovery United.
What are you doing with that,Ray?

Ray (02:01):
So basically still just helping clients that are coming
through ARK, that are justiceinvolved, navigate the program
successfully, not focus on theiryou know, justice issues that
they got going on, but to focuson their treatment and their
healing and, you know, help them, you know, lessen the impact of
what they're dealing with outon the streets.

Booda (02:21):
That's beautiful man and there's nobody that I could
think of better for thatposition, brother.
So congratulations to you, andthank you very much for joining
me on this journey, bro.
It's going to be fun.
We're going to have some greatstories here, thank you.
Another thing too I mean AR isis we're alive.
We're alive and strong, andthat is due to some amazing
changes that have happened,including leadership man.

(02:42):
So I have my brother right heresitting next to ray, that I
want to give a huge shout out to.
He is our chief strategyofficer.
He's helping rebuild the entirestructure here at arc.
Everything feels better,everything sounds, but I mean, I
can't, I'm just, it's ablessing.
All in all, ladies andgentlemen, give it up to my
brother, frank Eisenhower.
How are you doing, man?

Frank (03:02):
I'm blessed man.

Booda (03:04):
I'm blessed to be here, dude, it is such a blessing to
have you here.
Thank you, how's everythingbeen going for you?

Frank (03:10):
I mean, it's the battlefield, yeah, but it's
great, man, that we see light atthe end of the tunnel.
Yes, sir, you know, the cultureis night and day from when we
got here.
Yeah, a lot of good, goodpeople here, man, absolutely.
So we're just really gratefulto be back here.
I started my career here in2018, so it's good to be back
here in this spot.
Yes, sir.

Booda (03:31):
And in the studio.
Today, ladies and gentlemen, wehave a very, very, very special
guest the gentleman that wehave with us today.
He is a talented speaker, ateacher and a leader with over
20 years of experience in frontof crowds, talking about a
variety of different things,including faith, business.
He's always inspiring otherpeople.
He has a bachelor's inreligious studies as well as a
master's in theology, and he'salso the owner of SML Consultive

(03:53):
.
Also the owner of SMLConsultive.
Ladies and gentlemen, put yourhands together, get up out your
seats and give a huge round ofapplause to our friend, mr John
Antonucci.
What is going on, brother?
How you doing?
Hey, it's great to be here.

Jon (04:06):
Thanks for having me.

Booda (04:07):
Hey, absolutely, man, absolutely.
It's a blessing to have youhere.

Jon (04:12):
Frank was saying that you flew down.
Yes, yeah, and it was a journey.
Yesterday I was telling afriend of mine that the journey
here was fraught with difficulty, but we made it.
Today's been a great day.

Booda (04:25):
Oh yeah.
Yes, Like I said, it was justlike the technical errors
earlier.
It's the enemy trying to keepus from doing this podcast.

Jon (04:31):
Yeah, yes, you know you just press through, you, press
through, you can press through,you press through.
You can't change 99% of thestuff.
You can't control Absolutely,but you can control your
response and just keep in apositive attitude.
I told my wife.
I said there's been so manytimes where everything looks
like it's going great and then Idon't get the results I want.
So I'm going to assume theresults are going to be there,
because nothing's going the wayI want it to.

Booda (04:51):
Absolutely, that's cool, man, that's cool.
Well, thank you so much forcoming over here.
I always like to ask thisbecause I mean, Frank has
brought some powerhouses in here, man, and you know, and it's
incredible, how did you guysconnect?

Jon (05:04):
We were both a part of something back in 2017, 2018.
The state of Arizona was doinga series of meetings they called
them town halls and they werelooking at criminal justice
reform and Frank was coming intothe prison as a civilian.

(05:26):
I was serving a sentence ofincarceration during that time
and we happened to get put atthe same table and we're along
with about eight people theretotal six other people.

Frank (05:35):
Yeah, yeah, you're the only one I remember Well.

Jon (05:39):
I remember.
You know what's funny?
That's actually probablymutually true.
Yeah, I know there were otherpeople at the table and in my
mind's eye I can still seepeople around the table, yep.
But yeah, you were right there,yep, and you kept telling me to
be the one that goes and talkedfor the table.
That's right.
We were supposed to take turnsand I went up there every time
and I was like I'm the only onegoing up every time.

Ray (05:59):
Yeah, what was the focus of those town halls?
What was the goal?

Jon (06:04):
The goal at that time, as my understanding was, they did
12 of them around the state,some inside of prison, some out.
I think there was two that weredone in prisons and they were
designed to get basically all ofwhat they consider to be
relevant voices.
So in that town hall we hadinmates, we had staff, we had
administrators, we had communitycorrections, we had interested

(06:26):
parties.
I don't know your would havebeen recovery or sobriety kind
of coming in right.

Frank (06:29):
Yeah, I actually went in when I was representing ARC back
in 2018.

Jon (06:33):
Okay, there you go.
Wow, and so it was designed tojust be.
Basically anyone who was eitherbeing impacted by or involved
with corrections were comingtogether to basically say what
could we be doing better?
And I'm actually quoted in somenewspaper basically saying that
they needed to get rid of thealgorithm deciding who could
take what programs and startactually learning about the

(06:54):
people that were incarcerated sothat they could be more
effective in addressing theirindividual needs, not what a
computer told them they mightneed.
Wow.
So there's actually a newspaperarticle out there somewhere
quoting me saying that.

Booda (07:07):
Yeah Well, man, I mean, you know I did a little bit of
research before we started,right, but one of the things is,
you know this podcast is prettyorganic with the questions and
things, so I wanted to save someof it.
What we typically do wheneverwe have guests like yourself in
here is we kind of start fromthe beginning about where you're
from all the experiences thatyou've been through.
So if you wouldn't mind kind ofindulging a little bit, where
are you from, man?

(07:28):
I grew up in Fort Collins.

Jon (07:29):
Colorado, colorado, yeah, it's the northern part of
Colorado, basically the I-25,which kind of just splits the
entire central western part ofthe US.
If you were in Denver, go up 60miles, you're in Fort Collins.
You keep going, you're going tohit Cheyenne Wyoming.

Booda (07:44):
Oh man, colorado is a beautiful place.
It's gorgeous, absolutelygorgeous.
That's fantastic.
And growing up, did you haveany siblings?
Yes, I'm the oldest of five.

Jon (07:53):
Oh wow, yeah, oldest of five.
So, yeah, oldest of five, andwe were all homeschooled.
So lots of sibling rivalriesand whatnot?

Booda (08:02):
Oh man, how was that?

Jon (08:03):
experience.
You know, I think there's a lotof things you know and just in
life.
I don't know about you guys,but for me there's a lot of
things in life where you hate it, or at least you don't like it
that much, when you're goingthrough it and then you look
back on it and you're like thatwas not nearly as bad as I
thought it was.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I attribute a lot of eventhe success I experienced today

(08:24):
to just the education I received, because there was such a high
priority put on making sure thatwe had quality education.
And back then I mean we'retalking the 90s, so this was
before homeschooling got big way, before COVID.
Obviously, how old are you?
I'm 36 this year.
Oh, same age, Cool, yeah.
And so, yeah, this was kind ofpre-homeschooling cool.
We were still the outcast.
But I think a lot of times thatwas because some maybe not all,

(08:50):
but some people in thehomeschooling community were
kind of using it as an excuse tonot do school, yeah.
And so there was that likestereotype of oh yeah, you go
bake cookies and call it home ec.
I bake cookies too, but it'snot school, Right?
Um, but that wasn't how myparents did it.
My parents were like weliterally stood and said the
pledge of allegiance everymorning and, like they, they ran
it.
They ran a tight ship.
The difference was, once wefinished our work, we were good

(09:11):
to go, so we didn't necessarilyneed to sit there for eight
hours, and so, as anentrepreneur which I was from
literally age seven, that workedout very, very well for me.

Booda (09:22):
Wow, and your mom and dad ?
You said they were married.
Obviously, right.
Yes, yeah, how was thatexperience?
Were they good marriage, allthose things like that.

Jon (09:31):
Yeah, they just let me see.
So in August they will becelebrating 37 years.

Booda (09:37):
Congratulations, congratulations, congratulations
.

Jon (09:43):
My dad's been in ministry all of his life Not all of his
life.
All of my life All of my lifemy dad's been in ministry.
My dad kind of functioned asthe principal, my mom was more
the teacher.
They used a curricula that wasreally very set out for the
schooling part.
My dad's been a part of verysmall churches so he's often, if
not always, worked both in thechurch as well as in another job

(10:04):
to support the family andoldest of five.
So we were a poor family but myfather taught us good work
ethic.
He taught us good moneymanagement skills.
When I got older and we startedhaving more real conversations I
was very rebellious so ourrelationship was strained.
Growing up Now it's awesome.
But once we started having realconversations I remember

(10:27):
telling him I was like Dad.
I feel like we had more of aboss than we did a dad, and I
think he would regret that now.
But even though that's notnecessarily what we wanted, it
has served all five of usphenomenally well.
Yeah, barring my mistakes, whichI know we're going to get to,

(10:48):
but if I go just for my youngestbrother, he is a
behind-the-scenes computerengineer coding specialist for
Amazon Fantastic.
A computer engineer codingspecialist for Amazon.
Fantastic.
My sister is the executiveassistant to the CFO, I believe,
of Swift Transportation, a bigtrucking company my middle
brother, her twin, owns I don'tknow if you guys have ever seen

(11:10):
any of their trucks, but OurWorld Energy OWE, it's a solar
company that is now in Arizona,new Mexico, texas, california,
utah, colorado and maybe otherplaces, and so he owns that
company.
And then the brother, justyounger than me, is the director
of IT for an internationalspecialty logistics company.
And so I mean the work ethic andthe money management and just

(11:33):
the real world application oflike hey, you know, we can live
life productively, or as thekids are calling it, now we can.
Adult Adulting is not as hardfor us because of that, and so I
think that served us all reallywell.

Booda (11:47):
So you obviously got the speaking and all of those traits
from your dad right?
You said you guys kind ofbutted heads a little bit, so
I'm guessing you're very similar.
You said you guys kind ofbutted heads a little bit, so
I'm guessing you're very similar.

Jon (11:58):
Yeah, I think of the two, I don't know I get compared to my
maternal grandfather more thananybody, but I think, speaking
for me, it's the one thing in mylife that I've got my 10,000
hours in on yeah setting,whether it was in the
incarceration when I wasteaching classes there.
Even now I'm a part ofToastmasters and so I just put a

(12:21):
lot of time into that and youjust you develop that over time.
And a friend of mine wastalking with me just the other
day and he's like hey, you'vealways had the mouthpiece.
That's never been the problem,which is not.
It sometimes has been a problem, but that's a whole separate
situation.

Booda (12:36):
Oh yeah, I feel you on that know, it sometimes has been
a problem, but uh, that's awhole separate situation.
Oh, yeah, I feel you on that.
Yeah, that's cool.
And and what about, uh, as faras your mom goes, like I'm just
thinking about, you know, as aparent, I got two kids.
You know the the thought of of,of keeping them homeschooled
would be so amazing, especiallybecause of how ugly the world is
getting now.
You know, and being able toteach them, educate them, bring
them up the correct way, likeother than your dad being in

(12:57):
that role, it seemed likeleadership as a pastor and all
these things that he was doing.
Did your mom have experiencewith that too?
It's really cool to me that youguys were able to do that as a
family.

Jon (13:06):
Yeah, my mother was a saint .
I mean, you can take everythingelse off and you just say she
was at any given timesimultaneously facilitating four
different grade levels.
yeah, right, like that just thatin its own right is like, okay,
five kids, that's yeah, fivekids, and two of them are, you
know, a set of them are twins,and so that that sort of

(13:28):
mitigates it.
It's only four grades insteadof five, but like that's a lot.
And then she had people like me, and I mean, part of my journey
is just that I lacked integrityfrom a very young age and so I
had all these real world skillsthat were great, but most of
junior high and all of highschool I was cheating.
I'd found the answer books, andI would take meticulous little

(13:48):
notes and I worked harder,cheating than I probably would
have had to study.
If I'm being completely, like,transparent, and so it's.
You know she was dealing with myissues and and, of course, you
know bickering and all thethings that we do.
And, um, then, not only that,she's a an accomplished piano
player, so she tried to teach usall music separate from school.
That was just, like you know,kind of a passion project, and

(14:09):
so I I still to this dayremember and I'm so thankful she
did it, even though I hatedevery second of it.
But I literally remember justsitting there just crying I
can't do it.
Oh man Trying to learn piano.
And just yeah, so not so muchon the leadership side for her,

(14:30):
but just that humble servantheart that just said, hey, you
know, I'm here to do this and doit right.
And she did.

Ray (14:35):
So the homeschooling was through the 12th grade.

Jon (14:38):
Yeah.

Ray (14:38):
What was, what was the transition for you and your
siblings to go into?
Like a college?
You're all degreed.
What was that like?

Jon (14:45):
That's a great question, cause I think that's the big
stereotype with homeschool Likethey, they can't have a
conversation, they, they're,they're socially inept.
We were, I'm going to say, kindof the exception, but I'll go
back to the fact that I was suchan entrepreneur and so because
of that, like everyone in theneighborhood knew us, everybody
my parents were John's mom anddad, kind of thing that was, and
so it wasn't as difficult of atransition.

(15:07):
And you go to the business sideof things.
Um of us actually only two ofus are degreed.
Two of us have master's degrees.
Um, I want to say, one or twoof us have some like
certifications.
But we all were working from avery young age, whether it was
entrepreneurial or whether itwas working for other people,
and so that transition just intothe real world was really quite
seamless, because, even thoughwe were being educated at home,

(15:31):
that kind of school ofexperience was happening live
with other people and we weren'tcompletely like cut off.
I mean, we went to the Boys andGirls Club and hung out with
people.
That was something that we wereable to do.
There was a Boys and Girls Cluba couple of miles from our
house.
We of course had our churchthat we went to and so we did
have some exposure to thingslike that, but probably that

(15:52):
entrepreneurial and work side iswhat helped make that
transition almost seamless Okay.

Ray (15:56):
Wow, the reason I ask that?
Because I've seen homeschoolpeople that were just completely
isolated and they just werehermits.
They didn't want to be aroundanybody.

Jon (16:06):
And it might be worth saying when you have five kids,
not two.
I said that when I gotincarcerated.
I think having to deal with allof the personalities of my
siblings made it a lot easierfor me to deal with all the
personalities that surrounded mein prison.

Booda (16:21):
Oh yeah, and I mean that's a great question.
That was, that was my thing too.
So you said just briefly, yousaid at around was it five or
seven years old, you, youstarted developing your
entrepreneurship.
Being that type of person, whatwere you doing?
What kind of stuff were youinto?

Jon (16:33):
Yeah, the very first thing I ever did was I went to my dad
and I said, hey, the lady downthe street we called her the
crab apple lady Cause she had acrab apple tree in her front
yard and uh, I said, hey, thecrab apple lady's grass is long,
can I ask her if I can mow itand try to make money?
And uh, my dad, being the kindof just business minded person
that he was, said, yeah, you cando that, you can use the mower.
Um, I think he helped me kindof work out like a pricing plan.

(16:54):
If I remember correctly, it waslike $2 for a regular like a
small yard, $3 for bigger and $4for like one of the houses
that's on the corner.
And he's like you pay me $1 forevery house that you mow and
you get to keep whatever's left.
He took a tax.
I like that, yeah, it's hismower, his gas, yeah, absolutely
.
And so, like you mean, I got toinvest.
Yeah, for real.

(17:24):
What do you mean, you know?
And so, um, yeah, and that wentwell.
So I started mowing lawns and Iwas super original with the name
of my company.
It was called John's LawnService and so you know it was
like I'm, I'm a super creativeperson.
Tongue nice, but yeah, thatturned into by the time I was 12
.
There was the lawn mowing andleaf raking and snow shoveling
and all of that.
I'd found one of those catalogsand y'all remember those
catalogs where you go sell themto like try to raise money for a

(17:46):
school trip or something.
There was one called olympiasales catalog.
I don't know if that stillexists, but they would actually
pay you money for every item yousold, and I think I like two or
three dollars for every item Iwould sell.
So I was going door to door.
Same way all the other kids were, except I was pocketing the
cash for it.
It wasn't going to whatevertrip Um, they're part of.
As I was going door to door, uh, looking for like lawn clients,

(18:08):
some guy answered the door andit was he was his mom's house.
But he was like oh well, I'vegot this little produce shop in
old town.
Do you want to come hand outflyers for me?
And so he would pay me to handout flyers to all the
restaurants.
I sold newspapers, I deliverednewspapers, what else?
Oh, there was a littleconvenience store that I had
been shoveling snow one morningand I got to kind of the corner

(18:30):
and I was like there's aconvenience store and I was like
I'm going to ask.
And so I walked in.
I was like hey, you guys wantto pay me to shovel your, your
sidewalks around the place?
And they were like uh, yeah, Ithink yeah, okay, yeah, we could
do that.
And so they paid me to shovelthe sidewalk in front of the
convenience store.
And then they asked hey, youwant to come back and like do
some stocking for us and stuff.
And so I would go in at likefour in the morning and make

(18:50):
their coffee and stock theirshelves before school dang man.

Booda (18:52):
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Wow, that's pretty so.
Listening to your story, man, Imean from where we started to
where we're at now.
In this story, you're aphenomenal student, you're an
entrepreneur, you're doing yourthing.
I noticed that you haven't saidanything about obtaining any
type of a criminal record at allat this point.
So let's go a little bit intothat.

(19:14):
At what age did you startgetting into trouble and what
was the reason?

Jon (19:18):
I mean, I got into real criminal trouble the day I got
arrested.
That was.
It was from one perspective, itwas a one-off, but I think that
it's maybe to give a more clearpicture and to be more
vulnerable with you and youraudience.
It started with character flawsthat manifested as criminal

(19:41):
activity.
So I'll double back a littlebit.
At 12, I started martial arts.
Okay, it was very good, veryfast, and by the time I was 15,
I was an assistant instructorand by the time I was 19, we'd
moved to the Phoenix area and Ihad over 500 students in the
Phoenix metropolitan area.
But it was also around 15-ishwhere something happened.
There you can kind of pinpointthings.
Things never happen, or rarelydo they happen on a dime right.

(20:02):
There's little decisions thathappen over time, but there was
one moment that just stillsticks in my mind so vividly as
a character pivotal moment.
Growing up as a pastor's kid,I'd already been pretty good at
kind of living.
That doubled life uh, we'rekind of notorious for it.
It's not good.
It's not good Just becauseyou're expected to act a certain
way.
You're expected to be perfectright, and so you learn how to

(20:25):
act the right way in the rightplace and you act however else
you want anywhere else.
And it was I think it was aboutage 15 where there was a
conversation I wanted to go tomaybe it was 16, but anyways.
I wanted to go to breakfastmaybe 16, but anyways.

(20:53):
I wanted to go to breakfastwith somebody from our church
and the girl that we were goingto go to breakfast together she
had a kid and my parentswouldn't let me go because they
didn't want.
Basically, it was like to havea testimony and in that moment,
15, 16 years old, I remember,like you, know what.
If I tell people what they wantto hear, they'll let me do what
I want to do.
A pivotal moment in myintegrity problems where I just

(21:17):
developed this strategy of saywhatever I need to say and I'll
get what I desired and I'll getwhatever I want, and, and and.
It was applied almost across theboard and in some cases it
serves people well, I cause ithelped me communicate with
people in a way that wasmeaningful to them.
And, uh, you know, frank, and Ijust just finished a time with
some of the residents here andit's like I was meaningful to
them.
And you know, frank, and I justfinished a time with some of

(21:39):
the residents here and it's likeI was able to meet them on
their ground.
And that's a good thing, to beable to communicate in a way
that's meaningful to people, butmost of the time it was used
for my benefit and it wasn'tserving anybody else.
And it was tell you what youwant to hear so that I get what
I want.
And that lying, manipulating,conniving, selfish, egotistical

(22:01):
person that I became over thecourse of years.
I remember telling my friendsaying you know, people will do
whatever I tell them to do, andI meant it.
I really thought that much ofmyself, that I really thought
that I just had basicallymanipulative power over
everybody.
And so you bring up theincarceration.
Well, there were a series ofevents that happened.

(22:22):
Number one that happened isthat I got involved and started
helping with some embezzlementand we justified it the way that
we justified it and decidedthat we weren't really doing
anything that bad.
But eventually, as witheverything, it got exposed.
What age is this?
I would have been 18 at thatpoint.
Yeah, 18 at that point.
And so they, I was exposed andI was fired.

(22:44):
That was actually the placethat I was teaching martial arts
for I was fired for it.
At this point in my life it'slike well, this is what I've
invested a lot of my life into,I'll go start my own martial
arts company.
And so I did.
And they sent me a cease anddesist letter.
And because I was so full ofmyself and I also, I think in a
way I felt cornered or scared,but I was like, well, the cease
and desist letter has no powerbecause I signed that contract

(23:05):
when I was 17.
So it's not enforceable incourt anyways.
Now I look back on that as aloophole.
Right, that's not a man ofintegrity, that's a man looking
for a loophole.
But at the time that was where Iwas.
Meanwhile, my best friend.
His books were also beingaudited and the whole thing I
came into was all based onthings that he'd been doing for
quite some time.
He was significantly older thanme and so that was going to

(23:28):
pose a problem if he wasn'tworking there and wanted to
essentially do the same thing Idid.
And so, in our just absolutestupidity, we decided the best

(23:49):
way to deal with that would beto go get rid of it with a fire.
And we broke into the officebuilding and we had gasoline
with us.
And we broke into the officebuilding and we had gasoline
with us and my best friend whoit was his document.
He struck the match and did notmake it out of that building
alive.
Oh man and so obviously, justthe fire in its own right is a
very serious criminal activity,and when somebody dies it gets a

(24:13):
whole lot worse.
And he was significantly olderthan the rest of us.
It was his idea, but, from alegal standing, when somebody
dies, they're no longer aperpetrator, they get classified
as a victim.
And so I remember my attorneysaying like someone's going to
take the fall for this, andyou've positioned yourself very
well to take the fall.
And it wasn't because they wereantagonizing me, it was because

(24:34):
when I got arrested, I did whatI've always done or had always
done lie.
I just lied and lied and lied.
And so integrity shot they.
They questioned three of us Ilied, lied, lied.
The other one lied and then,when confronted, said I want a
lawyer.
And the third one lied and whenconfronted, said told him
everything and uh, my actions.

(24:55):
I went from being the hero tothe zero in a matter of a day.
Being this entrepreneurial goodguy, everyone loved me,
students and classes, and youknow, my own house, my own, I
mean all the stuff that youwould look at and say that's a
successful life.
And all of a sudden, boom, I'mon the five o'clock news.

Ray (25:16):
Whew, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a.

Booda (25:20):
So you know, hearing your story and everything that you
said from the beginning withyour parents, and all of those
things that experience for youwhen you knew.
You know that you gotten introuble for this thing like
talking to your parents.
How was that for you?
Like when they had to find out.

Jon (25:39):
When it first happened I was still in liar mode.
And so well, actually I'll saythere's two things.
Number one, I was still in liarmode.
But number two, the attorneyhad said you're not allowed to
say anything becauseeverything's recorded and so you
can't admit anything or it alsogets used in court.
And so I just kind of adoptedthis line that I thought was
kind of I don't know balancingwhatever it was, that I didn't

(26:00):
do what they said I did, andpart of that I mean we'll kind
of it'll end up fast forwardingin the story a little bit, but I
didn't have this one giantepiphany of like oh my gosh,
this is who John was and this iswho John is now.
It happened in stages, just likeI didn't become a complete and
total loser all at once.
It happened in stages, justlike I didn't become a complete
and total loser all at once.
It happened in stages, throughsmall character flaws that

(26:21):
manifested and grew anddeveloped, but at first I just
lied, I wasn't admitting tonothing.
Even the first time I talked tomy attorney I will never forget
sitting behind plexiglass,whatever, on a Saturday
afternoon, as my public defendercame to talk to me and he said
Mr Antonucci, my name is JeffreyKirchler.
I'm your court-appointedattorney.
I will be your court-appointedattorney for the duration of

(26:43):
your pretrial proceedings,unless the state chooses to seek
the death penalty, at whichpoint I will no longer be your
court-appointed attorney and youwill be assigned another.

Ray (26:50):
Oh my, God, what was the charges that they originally
charged you with?

Jon (26:54):
Arson of an occupied structure and, uh, first degree
murder.
First degree, um, so it'sfelony murder technically, and
so it's not that they thoughtthat he was supposed to die, it
was that because it was a felonybeing committed and somebody
died, it's classified as an f1automatic.
Yep, yeah, wow.
And so, and the occupants ofthe building were us, we so, uh,
are some an occupied building?
We were inside and therefore weoccupied the building.

(27:14):
So that was the firstconversation and I lied to him.
I was like I don't, I wasn'tthere, I don't know.
Josh took off and I don't knowwhere he is.
So I mean, I hope you can helpme.

Ray (27:29):
With your dad's history as a preacher.
How did that?
How did he accept that and whatdid that do to the relationship
at that point?

Jon (27:38):
I maintain big picture that the people that love those who
are incarcerated have it muchharder than those of us that
actually are.
And we can go into that if youguys want to.
But in that first minute nobodybelieved this could be true.
So at the very beginning it waslike no, this is crazy, there's
no way, john would never.
And so there was a hugereckoning that had to happen.
External Meanwhile we can't sayanything, the attorney's

(28:01):
telling them what he can butbeing very furtive, and they're
now dealing with their oldestson in prison or in jail.
At that point, with all theseaccusations and I think at first
their default just wheneveryou're going through trauma,
what's the first?
The default is to deny, and soI think that was their first
thing.
But ultimately they and I hadto have a conversation where I
said Mom and Dad, this is notyour fault, I made this decision

(28:22):
, it was the wrong decision, butyou can't blame yourself.
And I think that was a journeyfor them and they could probably
speak to it better, but it did.
I think it was a couple ofthings.
I think there was the shame.
I think there was a while wherethey didn't know what they
could or should say about me atall.
Should they even bring me up inconversation to people that
they're just meeting?

(28:42):
And I remember telling themthat that was their call, that
it was okay with me, they didn'tneed to feel like they were
protecting my reputation.
So if they wanted to tellpeople, that was fine, but if it
was hurtful to them that theydidn't need to feel like they
had to tell people, and so weyou know that was, that was part
of the process.
And then finally, once I wassentenced and I was actually in
prison and all those things, andnow we're able to actually sit

(29:03):
at a table, kind of like we arenow, and they're like okay, now
tell us everything.
That was probably where theyactually had to digest it.
But now they have a son who'sfinally telling them the truth,
and so there's already somelevel of transformation that,
yeah, yeah, I feel like before Itook full ownership.

(29:31):
So like when I first first,first I lied straight up denied,
denied, denied.
Then, once I got felt corneredenough to actually start telling
the truth, I told the truth.
I had to tell, okay, yes, I wasthere, but I didn't want any
part of it.
And then eventually it was likeokay, yes, I was there and I
helped, but I helped minimally.
And there there is actuallysome logistical truth to that.

(29:59):
My physical actions which iswhat I really locked in on for
quite a while was that what Iliterally did was help break a
window.
That was my physical action.
My hand did strike a windowwith someone else's and so I
really like, hyper fixated on,like whoa, whoa, whoa, this is
not my fault, all I did was likemaybe criminal damage.
And so there's a record outthere ofated on like whoa, whoa,
whoa, this is not my fault, allI did was like maybe criminal
damage.
And so there's a record outthere of me saying like I think
I should get maybe one or twoyears like criminal damage,

(30:19):
that's all.
And so, recognizing that mychoice to participate had ripple
effects, that took time and itwasn't.
I think it was about seven yearslater I think it was in like I
want to say 2015 or 16 that Iwas applying for clemency.
And this was my second timeapplying for clemency, which is

(30:41):
basically just saying to theboard hey look, I'm sorry,
please help me, like that's,like you're not, you're not
claiming innocence or anythinglike that.
And one of my co-defendants gotclemency, he had gotten his
tenure sentence reduced to seven.
One of my co-defendants gotclemency.
He had gotten his 10-yearsentence reduced to seven, and
so I was seeking that same sevenwe had both.
He and I had signed the sameplea that offered a range of
seven to 21.
He had been given 10.

(31:02):
I had been given 14.
And-.

Ray (31:05):
Why was the difference with your-?

Jon (31:07):
Because I was.
I guess I'll say Pigeon is themastermind with the absence of
Josh and because of my well, noteven with the absence of Josh,
yes, the absence of Josh.
But let me just take theownership and say because of my
lies, it was like you're the guy, this is your fault.
Of course, there was some funparts where they were like this
is the stupidest idea ever andJohn's the only one smart enough
to cook it up.

(31:28):
Things go together.
But yeah, so that was that Igot sentenced to 14.
He got sentenced to 10.
He got his reduced to seven andI was seeking seven.
It was my second time asking andit was right.
Before we submitted the packetand I had probably the biggest
like epiphany moment that I hadin my entire growth journey from
like a ownership standpoint,and that was when I realized

(31:49):
wait, a minute, I was, I'm anatural born, I, oh my goodness.
And I realized I'm a naturalborn leader and even though it
wasn't my idea and it wasn't myplan, the fact that I was even
there gives more culpability tome.

(32:10):
More culpability to me Becauseif I had said I'm not going to
do this, the chances thateverybody else would have
followed suit, not because itwas my idea, but just because of
that energy that I carry, and Ichanged my request from seven
years and said how?
About 10 and a half, which isthe presumptive they still
denied me.
So I ended up doing the entiresentence.

(32:31):
But that pivotal moment where Iactually said I'm not just
responsible for what I did, I'mnot even just responsible for
the ripple, I actually carryresponsibility for others'
actions because of theresponsibility and ownership
that I have just as a person,and that was a huge pivot moment

(32:52):
.
But that took time.
That was, that was some sometime down the road.

Booda (32:57):
Wow, During this whole process, um how was your faith?

Jon (33:03):
So I I changed what I said a second ago and I said, as far
as the logistics are concerned,so that would be the big pivot
moment.
Um, so, from a faithperspective, I had made a
profession of being a Christianand believing in Jesus when I
was 12.
I had watched a scary movie anddidn't want to go to hell and
was like, oh that sucks, let'snot do that.

Booda (33:20):
And so.

Jon (33:21):
I had decided I was going to get saved and that was kind
of thing.
Well, I had went to a Biblestudy and I'm sure you guys all
probably know Roger Munchianhe's the director of Rescue, not
Arrested.
But at that time Roger Munchianwas nobody anybody ever heard
of.
He was doing one-on-one Biblestudies in Fourth Avenue Jail as
part of the what was the nameof the ministry?

(33:42):
It turned into Winning WalkMinistry.
I think it used to be likeLife-Changing Prison Ministry or
something like that.
What's?

Booda (33:47):
his name.

Jon (33:48):
Roger Munchian.
Roger Munchian, I'll look it up, yeah.
And he came in and he was doinga Bible study with a guy that
was in like two cells down fromme, and I was, at this point,
just, you know, kind of almostdefaulting back to you know, oh,
I'm supposed to be a Christian.
Like that's okay, let's do that.
And I asked the guy if I couldgo with him and he was like,
yeah, sure, so sure.

(34:08):
So I go into the room andRoger's like, oh, so, like, are
you?
You know?
What do you believe?
I was like, oh, I've been aChristian since I was 12, but I
backslid and whatever.
And he was like well, like,backsliding is not really found
in the New Testament, just soyou're aware.
And I was like, well, no, butyou know what I mean.
He's like no, I know what youmean, I'm just saying I don't
think that's biblical.
Like maybe a month later wasthat at 12, I was interested in

(34:31):
having Jesus be my savior, but Ihad no interest in him being my
Lord, and you can't have onewithout the other.
And so it was at that pointwhere you have that pivot, and
it was like, okay, my way's notworking.
Maybe we should actually submitto his Lordship.
And so that's really the bigtransformative, because it was

(34:52):
at that point where I became alot of those things I told you I
cheated through school.
Well, that's because I wasn'tinterested in learning.
I was interested in lookinglike I was smart, not actually
learning and growing.
And so when he redeemed mycharacter, there were some
things that didn't look likethey changed all that much,
because I was going to churchbefore I'm still going to church
, I was reading my Bible,whatever, but the heart behind
things that I did changeddrastically and it went into.

(35:15):
You know, we talked aboutfailure just today at our
workshop together and it was,you know, failure's.
Okay, I don't have to hide, Idon't have to pretend like I'm
perfect.
I'm not.
So let's stop pretending andlet's actually grow.
And the people that grow themost are the people that are
willing to look stupid, becauseyou don't grow unless you're
willing to look stupid.

Booda (35:33):
So I found it's called Rescued, not Arrested, that's
his current one.

Jon (35:37):
Back then he was I think it was Life Changing Prison
Ministry back in the day, andthen that turned into Winning
Walk Ministry when he became thedirector of the Christ Church
of the Valley Prison Ministry.
And now, yeah, rescued, notArrested, is you probably see
their Bibles all over the place,their white Bible they got
handcuffs broken.
It says Rescue, not Arrested.
Oh, yeah, they're in a bunch, Ithink last I knew he was in
like 130 countries, wow,distributing those Bibles and

(36:00):
trying to help people.

Booda (36:02):
A little bit of your story reminds me of Proverbs
22.6, train up a child in theway that he should go, and when
he is old he will not departfrom it.
Yeah, I just had to get alittle older.
Yeah, you just had to get alittle older, but you didn't
depart from it.
Man, I mean, when God was ready, he pulled on those
heartstrings.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, wow.

Ray (36:20):
So you get to prison.
What would you do in thoseyears while you were
incarcerated?
Because you know we'resurrounded by gangs, by violence
, by all kinds of bad stuff.
What kept you walking the pathto where you're at right now?

Jon (36:37):
I think a few things.
I think in one sense, I thinkGod prepared me without me
realizing that's what he wasdoing years before.
I mentioned a minute ago justhaving that many siblings will
help, but, like I'd been told byguys in jail like hey look.
So here's what's going tohappen.
You're going to get to prisonand they, they're gonna kind of
watch you for a couple of weeksand then, based on how you
conduct yourself, will depend onwho approaches you and whatever
.
Well, that is not what happened.

(36:58):
What happened is, about threeminutes after I got there, I got
attacked from behind by threedudes and what I then learned
later was called a heart check.
But I didn't know that.
All I knew was I wasn't gettingraped today and I fought back
with the fury of a thousandPhoenix, suns and um and, and it
didn't go well for them.
I had all that martial artbackground, remember, I had
three black belts and, and sothat kind of created a tone

(37:21):
where I was just trying to do mytime.
I was already even though itwas only 10 months after I'd
been arrested.
I was already uh, thankfully ofthe disposition and mentality
that I'm going to do thisproductively.
I can't undo the decision thatI've done, but I can make better
decisions.
That that much I had alreadylatched onto, and that first
incident created a scenariowhere people weren't approaching

(37:43):
me for anything.
It was just kind of like, allright, as long as he's not doing
stupid stuff, we'll leave himalone.
And I even I like overheard aconversation where someone's
like, hey, man, you need to beworking out, and someone's like
ah, he put Bryce on his back.
I think he's probably okay, and,uh, certain dominance on the
yard.
Yeah, exactly, um, and.
And so I actually learned.
No joke.
I learned like 10 years laterthat that incident apparently

(38:04):
became a legend.
I had no idea.
I spent over a decade nothaving any idea that anyone even
knew about it, until I was onmy way out.
It was probably like a year,maybe two years, before I got
out and someone walked up andthey're like hey, man, I've
heard about you.
And I was like, oh, okay, likeyou know, cause I was a part of
a lot of stuff.
And they were like, no, is ittrue.
When you came down, you like,and it had gotten blown up, so

(38:24):
like it was this complete legend.
And I was just like I meanattacked when I got in.
Just like you can leave whateveryou want, but that helped and
then just kind of beingproductive.
So if you're already workingout, no one can really try to
get you involved in their issues.
And if you're not doing drugsand you're not on the gambling

(38:44):
table and you're not gettinginto debt and you're not doing
those things, there's no realhooks in you.
And so the only thing I reallyhad to be willing to do was
assert you talk about assertingdominance, really just asserting
boundaries, where there werethings, and once you the cool
thing about prison and I don'trecommend it for anybody, but if
you have to be there, there'slike one thing that earns you

(39:06):
more respect than probablyanything else, and it's just
simply consistency.
You can be whatever you want.
You can be the crazy person,you can be the drug addict.
If you're the same today andtomorrow and the next day.
For the most part, people arejust like, yeah, that's Maybe.
It's like, oh man, that's him.
Other times I'd be like, yeah,that's him.

(39:26):
What are you going to do?
Right, but you're consistent.
It's the ones that want to beone way one day and a different
way the next day.
That don't usually last verylong, because people just aren't
going to put up with hypocrisyand inconsistency, and so that
helped a lot as well as I.
You put a boundary in place.
No, I don't carry things acrossthe yard, I don't care if it's
a honey bun, I don't do that,and it's not.

(39:49):
No, I'm better than you.
I'm better than you, it's, it's, it's from the heart of, just
like.
You know what I just make thatmy policy Cause I, I, I was
doing a lot of programs.
We can kind of get into some ofthat in a minute.
But, like, I had a lot ofLiberty on the units that I was

(40:11):
on, even the lockdown units Um,I had to create those boundaries
because I wasn't going tojeopardize all of the programs
and everything else that we hadgoing because of a honey bun,
like you'll figure it out.
I'm sure you know you've gotresources and you have people
that owe you things.
So you know I don't owe youanything and I'm not going to,
and so I think that helped a lotto just kind of create that
space.

(40:31):
And then there's probably alsosome factors that had nothing to
do with me.
They're always well.
First of all, when I came in, Ididn't come in until 2009.
So some of the politics hadstarted to die down in the 2010
era.
And then also there therealways seemed to be someone that
was either partially involvedor behind the scenes involved or

(40:53):
whatever with the politics.
That always seemed to haveenough respect for me that they
were like yeah, we're not goingto, we're not going to mess with
him.
And as it got longer and longerinto my incarceration, some of
them were, you know, even askingcounsel like, hey, how do how
do we deal with this?
We're trying not to make theyard blow up, but this has to be
handled, and so I had theopportunity to speak life and

(41:14):
speak wisdom into somesituations that I had no
business being a part of.
I wasn't involved with that,but they saw that consistency of
life and I think that was veryhelpful.

Ray (41:23):
And you served out your total time.

Jon (41:25):
Yeah, so I was behind bars physically for a little over 12
years and then I served the lasttwo under community supervision
.

Ray (41:31):
a little over 12 years.
And then I served the last twounder community supervision.
And what kept you anotherquestion, prison question from
not desecrating your flesh withtattoos the way I promised I
wouldn't and I did.
You know I mean, what kept you?

Jon (41:42):
Well, probably two things.
Number one, getting stabbed amillion times, just never
appealed to me, really.
No, it was fairly early in.
I'm trying to think of whatyear it was in, I want to say it
was 2011.
So really early in myincarceration, they brought out
something called oh my goodness,I don't remember the name of it

(42:05):
, but it was actually fundedthrough the Maricopa Health and
recovery department or whateverand they came into all the
prisons and what they werereally trying to do was just
reduce all the costs for theprisons for all of the
communicable diseases, and sothey certified like 30 of us in
the system to be these peereducators, to teach this class.

(42:27):
It started with an m, it waslike mercer murper.
It wasn't mercer, it was likemurper something, but it was
this class on how to avoidgetting things like AIDS and HIV
and hepatitis C and all that.
And, of course, tattooing in aprison is very, very risky for
some of those reasons,specifically MRSA and hepatitis,
and so having just thatknowledge and it was just like
you know, if I want a tattoo,this is probably not the best

(42:49):
place to do it, and so I just Ijust never went that route.
The other thing, I think would.
That, at least for me, wasprobably a factor is that you
know if you're going to make amistake of some sort I'm not
saying any, any of the tattoosin this room are mistakes but if
you're going to make a mistakein general, one that is
permanent and you can't do awaywith, so like, obviously tattoos
in prison are not allowed,right, and if they catch you one

(43:12):
with fresh ink they're gonnagive you a ticket.
But I had come in with and allmy pictures definitely did not
have tattoos in them, and so itwas one of those things like, if
I make that decision, like it'sjust a matter of time before
they're, like, your intakepicture shows a bare arm.
That is not a bare arm, andthen you know what am I putting
on the line?

(43:33):
All the programs, all thethings that I'm doing, all the
college that I'm taking, allthat you talked about, the
degrees I got.
I got those there and you knowthat all goes away the minute
they decide that you're notbehaving yourself correctly.

Ray (43:44):
What programs were you like involved with, or creating or
improved?

Jon (43:48):
So I got to be part of the kind of the ground level what
now is called recovery supportspecialist.
I actually helped build that,but then I wasn't allowed to be
a part of it.
Before recovery support therewas something we called IPP
inmate peer programming and Iwas I won't say I was the
foundational person, but I was.
I was one of the people onseveral units that brought that
from an idea that had a coupleof classes to full fledged

(44:09):
program departments tofull-fledged program departments
, and I got to do that on acouple of different units.
And so we were creating classesbased on money management,
based on seven habits of highlyeffective people, based on
parenting, some recovery classes, we had small business classes,
we had public speaking classes,we were developing all kinds of
classes just around differentthings and eventually we were

(44:30):
building teams of people thatwould say well, this is a
subject I really care about, soI'd love to offer an investing
class, I would love to offer aCDL prep class, and it was all
peer-based that we were building.
And eventually they formalizedthat and I was part of a group
of I think it was 17 of us thatsat in a room at Whetstone
actually, which was theconception with Stacey Paul

(44:50):
actually, which was theconception with Stacy Paul,
stacy Paul, stacy Paul, andmeant miss Mena I don't know if
you remember her, but we all satin a room together in the
visitation of Whetstone unit andconceived this idea.
And people from I think it wascommunity bridges or somebody,
came in because they were goingto be offering their licenses
for the certification and theywanted to figure out okay, we,

(45:11):
we have this kind of peersupport out here.
We'd like to bring it into theprison.
How can we formulate thisprogram in a way that lets you
functionally do this?
And we conceived it and weshared here's the challenges
you're going to face.
Here's the things you guys needto look for.
Here's, you know, here's wherewe think can be great.
And they walked out of thatroom and that is now rss

(45:32):
recovery support specialist, therstat.
Yes, yeah, okay what's funnyabout that is the minute it
became formalized I was nolonger allowed to participate
because I don't have a drugbackground and they would not
certify me as an rss.
And so my story I've shared andit's kind of tongue-in-cheek
now, but it actually preventedme from ever actually going to
the second chance centersbecause they were only accepting

(45:53):
RSSs and they would not certifyme as an RSS, Even though I
said look like RSS is not justdrugs, it's really anything.
Any trauma that you've gonethrough.

Ray (46:01):
Mental health.

Jon (46:02):
That's real.
They would not do it, so theyrefused to certify me and
therefore I was never allowed togo serve at the second chance
center, which is something thatI've I laugh about it, but that
was something that was.
It was pretty irritating duringthe last like five years of my
sentence when it was like youguys have I built this, you know
, and you guys and granted,they've taken it way further
than I ever did Like don't letme sit here, make you think like

(46:24):
RSS is me.
I just like the foundation waslaid and I was part of that
formulation team and they werelike all right, thanks.
Everybody else can do it, and Iwas like oh you suck.

Booda (46:36):
Yeah, I agree with that man.
I'm not in recovery and Ilearned a lot about the world of
this recovery through differentpeople, through Ray, through
you know.
But you know, I really dobelieve in what you're saying
and the fact that you don'tnecessarily have to have that
experience to be compassionateand to be loving and to teach
people how to heal, because weall struggle from something.

(46:57):
You know there's people whostruggle from sexual abuse,
physical abuse.
You know, that's all.
You know.
It's all about beingcompassionate and loving and
caring to people, man, and I'venever had an issue with it, ever
Like as far as being able tocommunicate with some of our
clients and people that arestruggling with it.
So it's unfortunate that theydid not allow you to be a part
of that.

Jon (47:17):
I'm thankful that they're doing good work and I hope that
it will continue to make animpact in people's lives and I'm
thankful that the legacy.
We all in this room many of usknow George Nolan and it was so
cool.
I met George through the ASBAGO program Growing Opportunities
program that they have forpeople coming out of prison to
help them start their ownbusinesses and I didn't know him

(47:38):
from Adam and he got assignedto me as my mentee.
So to my knowledge, I'm theonly mentor in that program with
a criminal justice impactedpast Everybody.
All the mentors are businessowners, all the mentees are
people from prison.
I think I'm the only, or atleast I was for that round
anyways.
Anyway, so we meet and we werehaving our first meeting and it
goes, you know, justintroductions.

(47:59):
Second meeting.
We get like 10 minutes into thecall and George you can confirm
this with George if you want tobe like hey, did this happen?
We get like 10 minutes into thecall and he goes wait, you're
John.
I was like, yeah, johnAntonucci.
Yes, dude, I've been hearingabout you for years.

Ray (48:20):
I like George.

Jon (48:21):
Yeah, and apparently he'd been on some of the units I'd
been on and had, you know, beencompared, and I was like that's
such a cool legacy to just youknow, regardless of what
happened or whatever, just toknow like, hey, the work that we
did had an impact on somepeople's lives.
That is so meaningful.
And it wasn't just me, it wasteams of people, it was people
that will never, some of whichwill never even get credit,

(48:43):
people that were behind thescenes, keeping track of
computer records and helpingbuild things that were, you know
, never really at the front, butthey were the ones that made
that happen.
And I could list names all dayof people that deserve probably
way more credit than I got asthe front man for a lot of that
stuff.

Booda (49:01):
During your incarceration .
How did the relationship change, the dynamic of the
relationship between yourparents and your siblings?
How was all of that?
You were going through yourgrowth, all of that at the same
time.

Jon (49:12):
Yeah, it went really well.
I think there's probablythere's it's as with any
relationship, it's somultifaceted, there's there's so
many angles.
With my parents, at least threethings happened.
Number one they were sodelighted that there was real
growth and I think that wasevident every time they'd come
to visit you know the staffvisitation staff oh you know
he's he staff oh you know he'sgreat, he does this.
And half of our classes wereheld in visitation, so I often

(49:33):
had a lot of access tovisitation staff and so they
knew me.
So that was really cool forthem.
But the other thing thathappened is as I grew, not just
as a person, but as I grewknowledge-wise, some things
shifted with my dad specifically, where we stopped having kind
of that father-son conversationand started to have like a
colleague kind of conversation,and that made our conversation

(49:53):
like it's so productive and sodialogish instead of monologuish
, and so that really, reallyhelped.
And mothers just want to beproud of their kids and so when
she would come in and they wouldhave good things to say, she's
just beaming because, okay, thisis a terrible thing and a
terrible situation, but lookwhat he's doing with it, taking
the best of it.

(50:14):
So that really helped.
On the sibling side, I countmyself so fortunate and so
blessed because my siblings hadevery right to just say you know
what you go to you.
And all four of them have beenso gracious.
The one just younger than me,josh, has been a rock.

(50:37):
He's become my best friend, notjust my brother but my best
friend and I treasure thoserelationships so much.
And they came visit me whenthey could.
Something also very interestingthat happened that was neat for
me is a lot of times when peoplego into prison they've got a

(50:57):
decent amount of family supportand they take it for granted
First of all.
I think that happens.
We've probably all kind of seenthat, whether personally or
observantly but they take it forgranted and then they start
making demands like they have aright.
And I adopted a differentmentality, which I think really
helped the relationships,because I said and I said this
verbally, but I also backed itup with my actions I said I put

(51:18):
myself here.
It's not your job to support me.
And so in all of my 12 yearsbehind bars I asked for money
one time.
And the one time I asked formoney was when I got moved to
Winslow unit and my eye on thebus went to Winslow and all of
my stuff went to Kingman and Icalled and I was like, so I kind

(51:40):
of need everything and you knowthey you know, cause it takes,
you'll see, like 10 weeks to getback for anything and then
they're going to prorate it alland everything like that.
So that's the one time that Iever asked for money.
I never asked for money.
I never expected that they owedme anything.
They didn't owe me visits, theydidn't owe me phone calls.
We got on a really goodschedule and so that helps
increase the relationship, notbecause, oh, john is so great,

(52:02):
but when your phone bill doesn'tcome in at $400 because someone
thinks they need to call youevery day and you don't know how
to tell them no, well, now youdon't have that strain on the
relationship.
And when you're hearing fromthem regularly, I read an
article while still in jail.
So within the first six to ninemonths of my incarceration I
read an article about how thefamilies of people that are
incarcerated genuinely love them.

(52:23):
They genuinely want to help,but they have no idea how.
And then they get these lettersthat are mostly negative.
Woe is me.
This sucks.
So you know, you don't knowwhat I'm going through and it
they don't know what to writeback to that.
They don't know what to say,and so they don't write back.
Because what do you say?
And so I made myself acommitment when I read that

(52:44):
article that I was going to doeverything in my power to make
sure that my family lookedforward to my letters as much as
I look forward to theirs, andthat they look forward to our
visits as much as I did.
And so I really tried to servethem, even though they were
definitely serving me.
I tried to make sure thatconversations were productive
and positive and share with themthe good things.

(53:05):
And you know, there are stillthings that I experienced in
prison that I haven't told them,not because I'm hiding it, but
because they didn't need to know.
They didn't need the fear, theydidn't need the stress, they
didn't need any of that.
And my mom my mom would findout later She'd be like you
should tell me no, I reallyshouldn't.
Yeah, no, I mean, I love youand there's no.
I know what I'm going through,you don't.
And you worrying about it from200 miles away is not serving

(53:26):
you well, so I would much ratheryou just be like no, john is
fine, then think anything else.
And so, um, that all helped,those relationships fostered,
they built organically because,as a relationship should, I was
giving and not simply taking.
Um, my brother, the one that Imentioned already, though he, uh
, something interesting happenedall as all my siblings, or as I

(53:48):
continued through myincarceration, my siblings all
grew up, and so a lot of timespeople come into prison.
They have all that support,they've got tons of money, they
burn those bridges and then theyrest of their incarceration.
They're destitute.
I experienced the opposite.
I walked in, had almost nothing, but as the years went along,
my siblings all got jobs, theyall became very generous.
My, the Josh, the brother I'vementioned already.
Every time he got a raise, sodid I, and by the time I was

(54:09):
walking out the door I felt Imean, I wasn't rich, I didn't
have all the best stuff, but Ihad what I needed and I was
happy to share.
I was happy to be able to be ablessing, and that set a tone in
life for me.
He taught me a lot aboutgenerosity and about serving,
and I'm very thankful to him forthat.

Ray (54:26):
Would you say you and I'm just asking because I you know,
because of my past and myexperience did you struggle with
any kind of depression duringthose years and did you feel
like you just had to put a smileon when your family came, just
to keep them not worried?
But maybe sometimes inside inthere, you were just struggling
with just man.

(54:47):
What did I do to myself?
Why is it?
You know?

Jon (54:51):
I think the answer is yes, okay, but in a little different
than maybe some people think.
The.
In my opinion, the biggest curefor depression is service.
You stop having a woe is memoments when you are looking and
helping other people.
So that helped a lot that I wasdoing all those things to help
other people.
The other thing is, I'm also ahuge believer that our emotions

(55:13):
are a reflection of our thoughts, not the other way around.
I think some people believethat their emotions dictate
their thoughts.
I believe our thoughts dictateour emotions and so, being
disciplined about what I wasthinking about, what I was, I
like to say what I was feedingmy soul, the music I listened to
, the things that I was reading,the things that I was talking
about.
Were those conversations?
Were those entertainmentsfeeding my soul, positivity or

(55:36):
negativity?
So there were times where Iwould look around and it's just
like man, I'm an idiot, what Ihave no excuses, there's no
reason that I should be here,except that I'm an idiot.
And so there were those moments, but there were many, many more
moments.
What are we going to do aboutit?

(55:58):
Incredible.

Ray (56:01):
I love it.

Booda (56:03):
That's great, man.
And how was your thoughtprocess?
You know what I mean, becauseyou went in when you were so
young, yeah, and when you're 18,man, it's like something bad
happens.
You're like my whole life isover, type of thing.
And then you realize that evenin your 30s, it's like I'm
barely starting right.

Jon (56:23):
How was your thought process when your initial
release date was coming up?
I kept a very what I thinkanyways and I would still, to
this day, tell everyone to dothis.
I kept a very healthyperspective of release because
in Arizona, at least when I wasthere, maybe they've changed
some things, but in Arizona yourrelease date is not sure.
You've got these Senate billsand you got all these things,
and so I saw so many people inthose 12 years be super hyped up

(56:43):
I'm getting out tomorrow andthen something would change.
I saw even where they were onthe band and then they got
pulled back and so I mentallydid, said no, I don't get out
until I have to, which is myearned release credit date, all
the other special, you get 10days off for that and I didn't
count on none of that and toldmy family, everybody, nobody

(57:05):
knew any other date other thanJuly 18th 2021.
As it started to get closer andI think again, I just I think
it's very healthy to do it thatway, because that puts you in a
different frame of mind as itgot closer, it became more and
more probable that I was goingto be getting out May 10th, not
July 18th, and so I took intoconfidence my brother and a

(57:26):
little bit my dad, because theythings weren't moving fast
enough, and I was like we kindof need to have some stuff ready
, because I know you think July,but in any case nobody else
knew though and it was like,listen, there's no guarantees.
There's absolutely apossibility that I wake up on
May 10th and they say what areyou talking about?
Oh, did your CO3 tell you that?
Yeah, we don't know, I'm sorry,right, and so I just kept that

(57:48):
July thing.
For me, there was a cool.
There are two things that wereamazing.
Number one I had all thisresponsibility, which meant
turnover, so that was perfect,like training and building
people up and making sure thingswere happening.
But I think that anyone who'sbeen to prison especially if
you've done your timeproductively you're one of the
only people that actually kindof knows what it's going to feel
like to die, because it's theonly scenario in life where

(58:12):
there's going to be one day thatyou're experiencing one reality
and then, with a snap of afinger, everybody that you've
been around, everything thatyou've've done, all the clothes
that you've worn, is different,gone, yeah, and you have to
prepare accordingly, and I'vealways said I would love to know
the day of my death, because itwas very helpful for me to know

(58:32):
when I was getting out so thatI could prepare accordingly.
Um, preparing was definitelypart of it.
I ended up getting out may 10th.
That was not as early.
They could have actually let meout as early as February, um,
but May 10th is what theydecided to do.
My brother, josh, picked me up.
He was the only one that knewfor sure I was out, um, and then
we went, spent the whole daysurprising people, wow, and it
was awesome.
We got to catch my mom offguard.

(58:53):
I was standing and she was andshe was like what and I'm
turning my head like that, youknow, back and forth, and it's
like, oh, my God, you know, andjust we did that pretty much all
day and just had some great,great experiences as I got to
reconnect with family.

Booda (59:09):
So that amount of time that you spent behind bars?
You know the world changes soquickly, especially going
through COVID.
You got out on May 10th 2021.
Did you have any fear when youwere, when you finally were
getting released?
Was there fears that you had 21.
Did you have?

Jon (59:22):
any fear when you finally were getting released.
Was there fears that you had?
I had healthy fear, and I sayit that way because I was
prepared to face the world, asit were.
Part of my preparation had beento talk to people who'd been
out.
What did you experience, whatdid you struggle with, what were
the challenges?
And I heard everything.
I heard everything from it'sweird to hold a real toothbrush
to going to the grocery storeand seeing 800 variations of

(59:44):
cereal.
It paralyzed me to when I wentto the mall, I went into PTSD,
and so I was ready.
I was mentally the fear of like, I'm going to get through this,
we are pushing through, we'regoing to make this happen.
That was where I was at, andthen I walked out and didn't
struggle with any of it.
Wow, all of that preparation hadserved me well.

(01:00:04):
And so, the very first thing,when we went and got breakfast,
it wasn't difficult to read offthe menu.
I knew how to do that.
I knew how to engage with thewaitress, it was not a problem.
And when we went to lunch andwe went to a different kind of
restaurant, it was also not aproblem.
And last night we had a familyget together at Topgolf and it
wasn't a problem and I think tothis day my brother paid me what
may be the biggest complimentI've ever gotten, at least about

(01:00:25):
that scenario.
He sent me a text and he saidit was interesting watching you
yesterday.
It was like you never left andthat was so beautiful, and there
was an epiphany that I hadabout myself probably, I don't
know, a week or two later, andanybody that knows me and spent
any time with me in prison willtell you that there was always
this dichotomy for me where Iwas doing all these good things

(01:00:47):
but I always managed to havesomeone that didn't trust me or
didn't think that what we weredoing was actually good.
I mean, I went underinvestigation, uh all sorts of
stuff because people were likeno, there's no way this dude is
legit.
And one of the things thatpeople kept telling me over and
over and over again is John, youneed to learn your place.
You think that you're, you know?

(01:01:09):
You think you're a staff member?
It's like no, I don't.
I'm just trying to help.
You think that you're moreimportant.
No, I don't think I'm important, I'm just trying to help.
But because I was in thatgrowth mode and because I knew
ego had been a problem I washypersensitive to maybe am I the
problem Like maybe they'reright, maybe I think I'm trying
to help, but maybe we're rightback to being the John show and

(01:01:30):
me telling people what they wantto hear and all that stuff.
And that really bothered me forthe last like 18 months of my
incarceration, where I was justlike, do I need to know my place
?
Where I was just like do I needto know my place?
And it wasn't until after I gotout and that comment happened
and I reflected and I realizedthey weren't right, or they were
right, they were misapplied.

(01:01:50):
The issue was not that I didnot know my place, the issue was
that was not my place.

Ray (01:01:58):
And when I got back out, I was back in my place and I was
able to function veryeffectively place and when I got
back out, I was back in myplace and I was able to function
very effectively.
What was the first uh likemilestone you hit upon your
release get all these goals, allthese plans.
What was the actual firstmilestone like?

Jon (01:02:13):
yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm there.
Yeah, getting my own place.
For four months, to the dayafter I got out, I had my own
place.
That was, that was a big moment.
Um, the day after I got out, Ihad my own place.
That was a that was a bigmoment.
Um, getting the job.
I was within.
So it was about three weeksafter I got out I was asked to
work as a contractor to helpdevelop, develop some curriculum
for a company.
Um, and two weeks after Istarted that, they were like

(01:02:34):
what are we going to need toneed to keep you?
And two months they offered mea full-time training manager
position.
So I built their trainingdepartment from the ground up.
Two years after that they askedme to step into the director of
revenue role for thatorganization.
In the middle of all that, Istarted my own company.
So there's been kind of somedifferent, you know, promotions
and jobs and houses, and then wemoved across the country and so

(01:02:55):
after about three years I movedto South Carolina.
I've been there about a yearand a half now, parole, of
course, being over.
That was a big, big milestone.
And this year, now that we'regetting ready to come up on two
years of completely off paper.
I get to start applying forrights back.
So I'm excited that that'ssomething I can start working
toward in July of this year.

(01:03:17):
So I'm excited that's nextmonth Fantastic.

Booda (01:03:20):
One of the questions I have now.
Man, you know, now that you'reout, you're doing all of these
amazing things.
How did the talking to people?
It just came naturally, but wasthat something you really
wanted to do once you got outwas to just speak to people?

Jon (01:03:33):
Public speaking was not actually part of my I'll say
game plan.
In fact, a lot of what I'mdoing right now was not part of
the game plan.
If it were.
My plan when I got out was tospend the first month being Okay
Be with family, be present,enjoy this new experience.
Now, part of that was because Ianticipated all that difficulty
, yeah, and I was like I'm goingto need some transition time,

(01:03:59):
but I also just wanted to beable to be present.
Simultaneously.
I intended to be observingwhere there would be needs that
I might be able to fill.
And it was during that time thatmy brother reached out to the
company that he was working withand basically said hey, you
guys know I've been looking forhelp for a while.
We haven't found a good guy.
My brother's currently on themarket, you know, we might make
some good use.
My and his question wasactually temporary.
It was just like hey, can Ihire my brother to help me for a

(01:04:21):
couple of weeks?
That'll give me some help withwhat I need help with.
It'll give him some time tofigure out what he wants to do
and whatever.
And they were like well, hegets all the qualifications.
Like, don's not gonna work foryou.
We've been trying to do this.
We've been trying to build sometraining.

(01:04:43):
You say he built all this stuff.
How about we?
You know we'll have him do that, and so it kind of came from
that.
And then that was, and theyasked me okay, well, will you be
our training manager?
And I was like, okay, I can addvalue there, like I just built,

(01:05:04):
know anything about theindustry.
So I was learning the industryin order to build the training
curriculum and was able to add alot of value there and I'm very
grateful for that.
And then eventually they askedme to be director of revenue.
That wasn't even on my radar,it wasn't even something they
posted.
They literally I get a call oneday from my boss and I'm like,
oh, that's kind of weird.
He doesn't usually call me atthis time of day.
And the jerk I love him topieces.
He's an amazing person, buthe's such a jerk.
Uh, it was.
It was.
It was a team's meeting and ifyou guys have ever used teams
like what you named, the meetingwill come up.

(01:05:25):
Well, I didn't get a like acall.
I got a.
Matt is inviting you to meetingcolon.
Uh, discussion of john's future.

Booda (01:05:35):
Oh, wow man, I don't know how I'd feel if I got that one.

Jon (01:05:40):
Let me just tell you how I felt.
I didn't know how I felt either, so I'm like, okay, except and
it was live meeting.
It was a live meeting, so I'mlike except, which means I get
plugged into the meeting.
There's all 15 participantswaiting and my boss is there
with the CEO and the COO oh myGod.
And I'm like what's going on?

(01:06:02):
And, uh, the COO kind of goesinto a bit of a of kind of a
long explanation that we'regoing through transition.
We really need someone to stepinto this role and I think
you're the guy for it and thatstarted this conversation for me
to take director of revenue.
Um, which I had the privilegeof holding that position for a
while.
We got bought up by privateequity and there was massive

(01:06:25):
leadership misalignment.
I'm a kind of a person Ibelieve you take care of your
people, the people take care ofthe clients and the clients take
care of the revenue.
The private equity group seemedto be more of the opinion that
if you cut the people and takeaway any sort of personal
relationship, somehow thebusiness is going to grow.
And so far I don't think it'svery worked very well for them.

(01:06:47):
But, with that being said, itwas while I was training manager
, something curious happened,and that was that we were able
to do amazing things buildingthe training department.
We had brought the onboardingtime at that company down from
an average of about six monthswhich is a very long time for
someone to get acclimated downto less than six weeks.
But we were still losing people.
People were still walking outthe door, and I got asked if I'd

(01:07:09):
be willing to kind of spearhead, trying to figure out what was
going on, and it didn't take mevery long to realize that the
big issue was that we'd beenpromoting people and we had
taken the subject matter experts, the technical experts, the
people that have been aroundlong as we were promoting them.
So they knew their job, theyknew it really well, but they
didn't know how to lead.
And I remember having theconversation with the CEO and

(01:07:29):
saying, look, it doesn't matterhow good they know their job if
they don't know how to leadpeople.
And she was understanding atthat point and basically said
all right, but I don't want youto take a lot of time with this,
I need you to stay focusedoperationally.
And so I kind of was looking tooutsource some of this and I
just didn't find anything that Iwas really comfortable bringing
into these frontline leadersthat we had.
Everything was either dry asdirt, or it was like

(01:07:54):
manipulation more than realleadership, or it was designed
for the executive level.
There's a lot of materials outthere designed for executive
leadership, and so I kind of waslike you know what?
I think I need to createsomething.
And as I was creating, I waslike you know what?
I've kind of been doing thisfor a lot of years.
I had built.
One of the programs I'd builtin prison was a training course
on how to be a facilitator, andso that was your integrity and

(01:08:17):
how you, the energy you bring toclass and all those things
right, and so it was like thisisn't actually that difficult.
I just need to plug in allthese things that I've already
been working on for years andvoila, and it went really really
well.
The first round went well.
The second round went evenbetter, but it was kind of at
that point where it was like youknow, somebody needs to fill
this gap.
The YouTube was actually whereit started and it was like

(01:08:46):
there's got to be better videosthan this.
I remember looking for a videoon how a leader's attitude
impacts their team.

Booda (01:08:48):
I couldn't find myself like hours that's looking and
couldn't find anything.

Jon (01:08:51):
That was like yeah, oh, this man, this hits.
And I remember going to my bossand I was like look, here's the
two videos I found.
I don't like them but they'rethe best.
And he's like he's watching'swatching me, like yeah, these
suck, I'm like I know, I justtold you that.
And so he spent hours and hewent to the CEO and was like
this is, and there she I don'tknow how long she spent, but we
did find anything and I was likeI can do better than this.

(01:09:11):
I mean, I got a phone Like SMLConsultive.
Sml stands for Servant-MindedLeadership and our heart is to
provide training.
We call it empowering.
The empowerers it's thefrontline leaders.
You're talking director leveland below there's tons of people

(01:09:32):
serving the executive team, butthose middle management and
frontline leaders that are oftenpromoted because they're
operationally or sales wise,they're very sound, but nobody
gives them the relational toolsto effectively lead their teams,
and so you have poor culture.
You have people leaving, youhave people that are miserable.
I've never heard anybody sayI'm quitting because I hate the
ceo.
It's always I hate my boss.

(01:09:54):
Boss sucks, he's a micromanager, she's a jerk, you know
whatever.
And so we're trying to providetools to organizations that see
and recognize that and basicallyfill that gap that we needed
filled in our organization a fewyears ago.

Booda (01:10:07):
That's incredible man.
So you know, as far as you know, sml Consultive and you know
you're doing live speakingaround the United States.
Are you going around the world?
Have you gotten?

Jon (01:10:18):
there.
Yet you know we're almost.
It's funny you ask so and I'mglad you brought that back full
circle.
I got off track a little bit onthe speaking side of things,
obviously with the SML.
There's some speaking there,but I also decided that I had
gotten in in my own littlesounding chamber and so, for
example, you, I come to a placelike this and Frank knows me and
and people are like, oh, youknow, thank you, I appreciate it
.
You know, blah, blah, blah.

(01:10:38):
And I was like I need, I needreal feedback, and so I joined
an organization calledToastmasters.
Toastmasters has been aroundfor over a hundred years now and
they're part of their thing isthey give you feedback after
every time you speak, and thatwas something that was really
attractive to me, where peoplewith no agenda other than to say
, hey, here's how you canimprove.
We're now going to be a part ofmy life, and so I've been with

(01:11:00):
Toastmasters now for about ayear and that's helped a lot.
I actually just won the SouthCarolina International Speech
Competition a couple weeks ago,so we'll see if the next part is
they're going to review thatspeech and compare it against
all the other winners and decideif I move on to the semifinals.
So we'll see.

Booda (01:11:18):
We'll see you up there with David Goggins and all this
yeah something you know Heck,yeah, man, that'd be cool.

Jon (01:11:23):
So that's kind of how that's rolled out.
And then there's the churchside.
I do, I share my testimony inchurches and things.
I'll be in Albuquerque thisweekend sharing with a church
there and actually that pastor,he wants to record it so that he
can send it out because he'dlike to.
I want to go out and be aspeaker.

(01:11:43):
Um, my heart is to add value, myheart is to be a blessing, my
heart is to make sure that everyinteraction people walk away
from better off than theyentered that interaction with.
And I had the same heart inprison.
It wasn't anything other.
I wanted to leave prison abetter place than I found it,
and whether I succeeded or not,I'm sure it's up for debate, but
whether I tried or not, I don'tthink is, and so I try to live

(01:12:04):
life that way.
Even this conversation, like Ihope I've left somebody with
some hope.
I hope somebody is like youknow what man like, if you can
do 12 years in prison and stillstart your own company, like why
can't I?
And that's my the Toastmasterspeech that has won so far, I've
won the club, the area, thedivision in the district, um,

(01:12:25):
that's, that's what it is.
It's.
Anyone can change the world.
And if you think you can't,look at me.
Well, if you think you can't, Ithink you can't.
You're right.
Yeah, but no, I mean look at meand say, look, I mean he's got
the title of felon, he's didover a decade in prison, he's
made bad choices, but you don'thave to let those things stop.
You are you willing to do thework?
And if you're willing tohonestly just touch one person's
life in a positive way, that'sgoing to have a ripple effect

(01:12:47):
and I really believe thatanybody has the capacity to make
a massive difference.
That's part of the reason forthe company.
I believe that frontlineleaders they are making an
impact.
The question is not are youmaking an impact or not?
The question is is your impact,which you are making, positive
or negative?
Absolutely, and I want to giveyou the tools to make sure it's
positive, because I thinkthere's a lot of people that
want to do really well and noone has ever given them the

(01:13:08):
tools to make that happen.
That's real.

Booda (01:13:11):
That's real.
I just got a couple morequestions for you, man, before
we finish this up.
You know we've talked was a lotdifferent than a lot of
people's, but you have a lot ofexperience.
You have a lot of faith.
How important do you feel foranybody whether it's the type of
traumas that we talked aboutearlier someone in addiction,
someone in your shoes the stuffthat you experienced?

(01:13:31):
How important do you feel,because it's all about planting
a seed right?
How important do you feel is itfor people that are lost to
find something greater thanthemselves?

Jon (01:13:40):
I think it's incredibly important.
I used to say something veryunpopular in prison, and that is
you don't need Jesus to stayout of jail.
There are millions of people inthe world that never believed
in Jesus and they know how tonot commit crime.
But you can't have purpose inlife unless you have a
relationship with the purposegiver.
I love that.
It chills.
So if you're just looking tonot experience some consequences

(01:14:02):
, I don't think you need faith,I don't think you need religion.
I mean, anybody can just make abetter choice.
Okay, I'm not going to stealthat candy bar today, right.
But if you're looking to inhabitpurpose, if you're looking to
actually do something meaningful, I'm a big believer that the
creator has the power todetermine the purpose for the
creation, and the example thatI've given many, many times is

(01:14:22):
if you're a contractor or abuilder or you're a car junkie,
whatever.
If you build the house, you candesign it as a haunted house.
You can design it as ademolition house.
You can design it as abeautiful residence, a castle.
If you have a car, you candesign it as a show car.
You can design it as a race car, you can design it as a derby
car.
You have that right as thebuilder of the car, and I think

(01:14:43):
when we try to take that rightaway from our creator, we do
ourselves and him a disservice,because ultimately we're saying
that the creation, the car, getsto choose what it's designed
for.
And if we can just get in linewith that with God and say, no,
I'm going to actually submit tothe purpose for which I was
created.

Booda (01:15:05):
We have a lot more opportunity to have an impact
and we get to live that life ofpurpose.
That's awesome, man, that'sawesome.
So you know, let the peopleknow.
Out there, brother, for thosethat are listening that want to
find you, where can they findyou at?

Jon (01:15:33):
Oh, way too many places.
Probably the fastest, easiest.
I'm very active on LinkedIn.
If you look me up on LinkedIn,you're going to find me there
for sure.
We've got the Servant-MindedLeadership channel.
You're just literally atServant-Minded Leadership or
YouTubecom slash atServant-Minded Antonucci.
You're going to come up withsome bad stuff.
There's still some articles outthere that are not very
favorable toward me, but most ofit is stuff that we've been
doing much more recently.
I would love to get in contactwith anybody that I can be a
blessing to.
If it's a church or someonethat's more interested in my

(01:15:56):
personal side, you can go tojohnantonuccicom
Johnantonuccicom is more of mypersonal type of stuff and to
johnantinuccicomJohnantinuccicom is more of my
personal type of stuff, and ifanybody's interested in what we
do for businesses or frontlineleaders,
servantmindedleadershipcom orsmlconsultedcom will both get
you to where you need to gothere Fantastic.

Frank (01:16:12):
John.
I appreciate you, man, forcoming all the way out here from
South Carolina.
I know your plans changed, butyour commitment to us did not.
Um, really grateful for you,grateful for our friendship, man
.
Um, I just love watching yougrow and I I admire you, man,
for just the man you are, um,the man you know.

(01:16:32):
When I met you, uh, inwhetstone, um, from the moment I
I tell you this every time, Itell you this a lot just part of
my introduction to you.
I talk to people, but you know,I was just, I was baffled at
how you conducted yourself inthere and just it's you leave me
speechless, man.
I mean I'm saying proud of youis doing you a disservice,

(01:16:54):
because I mean I saw, I saw whoyou were in there and I knew, I
knew in my heart that when youcome out you're going to thrive
and I'm just grateful for you,man.
And thanks again for coming outhere, my pleasure, thanks for
having me.

Ray (01:17:09):
Yeah, thank you for being here.
I'm just blessed to be in thisroom right now.
I learned so much, oh yeah, somuch from just this conversation
, and you don't have to doubtwhether you bring positivity or
education.
I mean, you just have a gift.
That was the most awesome storyof consistency and growth that

(01:17:32):
I've listened to in a long time.

Booda (01:17:34):
Oh, yeah, it's beautiful man.
We're two or more gathered.
The Lord is right there with us, so it's been a blessing man.
Ladies and gentlemen, give itup to John Antonucci.
Thank you y'all For all thelisteners, man.
Thank you guys so much fortuning in to that episode.
You know where we are.
You can check the show notes ofthis episode.
We're going to havejohnantonuccicom on there.

(01:17:55):
We'll have a bunch of leaks onthere.
Links on there.
I apologize, but links on there.
I apologize, but until nexttime, you guys have an amazing
rest of your week.
Much love and God bless.
We will see you on the next one.

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