September 11, 2023 • 30 mins
A coffee-fueled round-table discussion about the book, "The Alabaster Girl" by Zan Perrion. Listen in as Zan and his guests explore the themes and concepts of the book in immense and surprising detail. The episodes will be released on a regular basis, so don't forget to subscribe!
In this episode: Part Three of the discussion on the chapter: The Way of Love
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"In Search of the Alabaster Girl"
Producer: Zan Perrion
Director: Ioan Bati
Editor: Gabriel Coroiu
Sound Editing: Nikolaos Spyratos
Original music: "Tango del'Amor" by DaKsha & Nandi
With: Zan Perrion, Jordan Luke Collier, Rich Thompson, Owen Davis
Created by Affinity Studio (http://www.affinitystudio.ro)
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Ars Amorata is a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure.
Zan Perrion is internationally recognized as one of the most original and insightful voices on relationships and seduction in the world today. A regular media commentator, he has been widely featured in the international press. Zan is the founder of the Ars Amorata philosophy--a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure. He is also a co-founder of the Amorati network of men. Zan divides his time between Canada and Romania and can be found at www.zanperrion.com and www.arsamorata.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Today isем cont annually with the.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So let's kick off more or less where we left it
last time.
No warm up for us this morning.
We're in love, yeah, we're inthe way of love, and we've been
talking a lot about the way ofbeing in a relationship which,
(01:21):
on the one hand, is veryhonestly sharing how you feel
that relationship is and what'shappening and what it means, but
not planning for it to go inany particular direction and not
being attached or trying toforce it to go a certain way.
And there's a little paragraphhere where you say, oh, chiara
(01:43):
school, to a lover there.
Let us not let you and I bedifferent.
Let's never analyze this aslet's just be.
Let's just trust our love, letus not expect or demand.
And it's like there's lots oflofty statements in that
paragraph of what I think a lotof people would hope a
relationship would be.
You know, to continually liveout those beautiful summer days
(02:08):
of when it first happened.
But I wonder, what is it inyour experience that has people
start to get derailed from thoseearly house-y days of a romance
?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, I think that's been commented on a lot.
Why does love not last?
Why is they say it's 18 months,18 months, and then it kind of
drifts away, and I don't know.
Biology, routines, sameness,lack of variety, yeah I don't
(02:49):
know.
But I know that, I know that, Iknow that if it descends into
just routine and the mundane andthe normal and there is no,
like I said in our earliersession, there is no spiritual
yearning then it will devolveinto just the sameness of days,
(03:14):
and so the whole idea and thewhole concept of this book is
how to move towards beauty andadventure Adventure is the word
that we don't use enough, and itcould be adventure in one place
and you have to like go aroundafter the safari, and I'm saying
it could be, but it's still anadventurous spirit and seeking
(03:41):
actively to maintain that and torevive that and to hold that
adventurous spirit until the dayyou die.
I guess you can.
Yeah, big questions here.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
How and why.
That 18 month fixed windowseems to be what evolutionary
science is suggesting thathormones run out on a given day
after we first meet, and that'sit.
Do you think that even thatwill be?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I don't know there's a whole biological aspect to
looking at copulation and thatis, and there be some very smart
and intelligent and wellstudied people who say that you
know, that is the natural lifecycle of Enough to make a baby,
(04:32):
hmm, have time to make a baby,care for it just enough and then
go off and make another baby,right?
So anybody's anthropologist iscan study tribes or say, yeah,
that makes that aligns with this.
Or or animals, I Don't know.
I Don't know if I believe it ornot.
I just know that I Know.
(04:54):
I know that I don't know, butothers comment on that.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's not.
My Seems like we're moving intothe portion of this project.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Because this the journey of this Gentleman is
basically.
As you see, the last chapter iscalled you know, the way of the
way of love, the way ofsalvation is an excellent
salvation of what?
Salvation of us in general, orsalvation of him, you know, like
(05:33):
, like, where's it?
How could he be saved Frommediocrity and from what's?
What's his journey?
Where's he going next?
So yeah, you're getting to theend of the book, which becomes
more questions, which becomesmore philosophical, which
becomes less practical, whichbecomes a big bunch of I don't
know.
So get ready.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Let's let's talk a little bit about intimacy.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Regions the next thing.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, as you know, I like my analogies and metaphors.
This is one of my favorite ones.
You talk about a relationshiplike swimming in the ocean and
the surface level is very free,it's gonna energy or by the
surface very fast moving.
And if you go deeper so peoplescuba diving seal the richness
and the vitamins for colors.
But there's more pressure,you're more submerged.
(06:26):
And you say, people like theirdifferent depths, some people
like to go shallow, some peoplelike to go deep and even a
relationship.
One of you wants one level,another one it's another one.
Yeah, it's difficult.
I guess this is true Not justfor the depth, and as people in
relationship with things liketheir journey, their
personalities have, peopleevolve over time.
You may start off in the sameand people, that's true, drift
(06:49):
apart.
Things drift.
But I guess for many peoplethey say I gotta make this work.
It's working relationship.
That's kind of one level.
Another level is oh, we're justapart, now let's leave it.
What?
What's your view?
Do you have a balance field?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
to try and to try and you know, sometimes, things in,
that's what I'm saying.
Yeah, we, we, we drag it outand we fight for which is a
noble thing to do to try andreally understand.
You know why.
Why are you having thisdysfunction?
Why are we having thisdisconnect?
You know why have I beenconcentrating on my career so
much that I've forgotten to tohave fun and play with my, my
(07:28):
wife, right, and thoseexaminations are good, those
like life exam.
What is priority to me, what iswhat is my heart says?
I'm what I love the most.
What do I not want to lose here?
What's most important?
And those mindful choices arefantastic.
But to to Artificially tryingto keep things dragging along
(07:50):
when the depth shifts.
I mean that the whole point ofthis talking about the different
, the analogy of the differentdepths that we like to swim at
is no one's right, no one'swrong, and and that's our
feeling, you know relationships.
Why can't you be more like this?
I'm more, I want to have moremeaningful conversation with you
(08:11):
.
Why can't you be more like me,which is the right way?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Why can't you be more fun and take it easy and just
enjoy?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
like I gotta be so heavy all the time.
Which is the right way.
See, we're all saying that,that that we need counseling or
we need you need to change.
You need to change becauseyou're not doing relationships
right.
It should be more Right,exactly.
You said that's where we'relooking at the relationship as a
third entities is a key.
(08:39):
Yeah, excellent, yeah, so, yeah.
So I mean, like, the wholepoint of that is that if we
recognize that it's not a badthing if somebody wants to swim
at a light depth where it's funand easy and they can breathe,
doesn't?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
mean that their commitment is any less.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Doesn't mean that their commitment to their, the
relationship, or their love fortheir, for their spouse or their
, their, their woman or theirman, is any less than somebody
who likes to swim really deepand have profound conversations,
profound meaningful experiences.
It just means that we just havedifferent levels and we try and
(09:20):
force that person and they'lldo it because they love you, but
it's not the natural feel.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
This has been one of the most Important insights I've
got from you over the last yearor so, because if you say it's
it's a good thing to be lightand at the top of the ocean and
it's a good thing to be deep,and it depends on the person,
there's no shaming in thatanymore right.
And it's like at least the kindof places that I've been to
lately there's been anassumption that deeper is better
(09:48):
and that the more intimate, thedeeper you swim in that ocean,
the better You're doing in theart of relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Right, and actually that's a very um, it's just one
perspective of things exactlybecause it's also beautiful and
Just as life, affirming goodthings about having it that
light and easy breezy, norelationship, and it could last
(10:14):
forever too.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And it's so easy to carry this like this un,
unconscious cultural norm, whichis you get into a relationship
and it's like that, and then, asevery month that goes by,
you've got to take it A layerdown into the depths of the
ocean.
And if you're falling behindbecause you don't want to see
the other person as much as youthe couple should at that point
(10:38):
in their relationship, thenyou're, you're keeping things up
because of fear.
Or if you're going too deepdown here on in the first month,
you're, you're too deep, you'retoo demanding, you want in too
much like this is the summer,you've got to keep it light,
yeah it's beautiful to get ridof those cultural constructs.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think that's the heart of it there, and we cast a
lot of blame, we have a lot ofanguish and we think if only
things would change.
But if we recognize that's howwe flow, that's how it is, then
the trick and the art is to tryand find, or try to align
(11:22):
yourself with, something thatlikes the same depth as you.
Right, good luck, a good luck.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Exactly Same depth, but also with the same rhythm,
right yeah, because you in thesummer might be very different
to you in the winter.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's correct.
That's correct and maybe we cantake this analogy in all kinds
of directions, expand on it, butI think the idea is sound.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So is there an optimum depth for success and
length in a relationship or anoptimum depth for beauty?
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
A relationship that is like fun and light and easy
can last for years, for yourwhole life, and even though we
think, oh, it has to be profoundand have a lot of meaning.
But I don't buy that.
I think any depth is like.
You can go forever, as long asyou're aligned with who you are
and you're shifting over time.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So yeah, I remember having a conversation with you
on this subject, like when Ifirst got back from America last
year, and it was like you andHans were, at least in that
moment, talking up the virtuesof staying in the surface and
Knut and I came back from thisbig trip talking the virtues of
actually touching that oceanfloor and getting our hands cut
(12:39):
to death with the coral downthere and we say like this has
got to be the way.
And you said something like inyour life you've seen a lot of
relationships that because ofthe belief that depth is good,
they go right down to the bottomof the ocean.
But because they do that heavylifting or that work or that
(13:00):
processing, it's almost as if bygoing right to the depth of
that, right to the depth of theocean together, it's almost as
if people can learn theirspiritual lesson or take their
spiritual lesson from thatrelationship really, really
quickly and they're done and itvanishes.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes, I think that's a statement you did me.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I have no comments.
You don't want to commit tothat from this Well yeah,
because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, but yeah, it seems to me that that is.
That seems right, likerelationships and love.
It's such a I don't know how totalk about it.
I don't know how to write aboutit Not really, because I write
about it in circles too.
Everything I wrote is all kindof circular and just like and
(13:51):
repetitious, and trying to pokeat it and trying to see it from
different angles andperspectives, and I don't know
if I was successful or not, butit feels like that was my best
attempt at writing about thisincredible, glorious concept of
love which is near and dear toeveryone's heart.
It's always the number oneconversation In every circle
(14:15):
that I've been in on earth.
Every culture you can talkabout.
I don't know boats you can talkabout, you know music, but when
it comes to the art of love andrelationships, everybody's
interested.
It always becomes the center ofattention when that topic comes
into the room, every guy andevery girl has what.
(14:36):
Because I want to know aboutthis too, I want to have
something to say about it.
It's always the number onesubject, this when it's brought
up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I think it's interesting, though maybe a
clarification point peoplereading this.
This seems because of the genreof the book.
It's very, very deep andmeaningful and we meet in person
, kick back off camera verylight and having fun and joking
around People reading this.
It's not saying the wayrelationships have to be like
this.
Deep and meaningful it can beeither.
That's the point.
The important thing again isthe spirit of it, not the depth,
(15:21):
or that comes down to your ownpersonality.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, contradictions are.
Because I'm very surface andfun and laugh and you guys
always see me in the same mood,right?
Yeah, I'm always joking and inmy relationship too, and yet
it's very meaningful, it'sstrong, profound and I think
about it a lot.
That's interesting.
I joke and I have fun and Iplay with you guys and I talk to
(15:47):
all the girls and smiling andwinking at everybody all the
time and I always take my time.
You know, I don't have to takethe time.
It's like it's an automaticthing of me that I sit back
virtually and wonder about thewhole thing wow, what does that
mean?
That's kind of cool.
(16:07):
I'm always like philosophizingabout something, always, even
though I'm like jumping aroundstrange, isn't it?
So this kind of stuff that I'mwriting here, it's things you
know.
I wrote in here that on abalcony, every man is a
philosopher, everybody becomesspin-o's.
When you stand on a balcony andit's, or at a window, you know,
(16:33):
just looking out and standingfor a long time, it just
contemplates and yeah, so I do alot of that.
I don't meditate, I don't thinkabout meditation.
I'm not a meditationist women.
(16:55):
It gives me a lot of peace inmy heart that I had.
It holds right for the world.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, you do say that you have a ritual and every
morning you consider who you areand what you want your life to
be like.
Yes, which seems like a serious, almost discipline.
Well, this is true, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, it is a.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's strange because there's almost a reverence.
About the who's sound strangeto say it.
There's almost a reverenceabout the way I move through a
day, you know.
Like I'm laughing joking havecoffee's with you running around
(17:45):
.
But if I'm walking somewhere,I'm never thinking like I, I Got
a biting shirt.
I don't think these kind ofthings, obviously.
I think the kind of things likeI'm in Bucharest here and what,
(18:07):
what was the glory of thisbeautiful city at one time, you
know?
And what are the people doingit?
What do they love.
I'm thinking these things allthe time, all the time.
So there's a kind of it like.
So the ritual, like is they doin the morning that I wrote
about in the book here, which isjust a quiet get up in the
(18:28):
morning, be grateful for the newday, consider who I am and what
do I want and and and what kindof memories you can make today
and that kind of.
That kind of flowing, but thatsame kind of and I lack a better
word that same kind ofreverence and gratefulness can
flip.
(18:48):
It is in beauty all today.
Even you guys may not see it onme, I'm thinking it all the
time.
All the time I'm thinking youknow when I'm not talking, which
is Most of the time Rest on thething.
Wow, how do we get to do this?
We get to sit in theconversation here.
That to me is like a powerfulthought gives me that, gives me
(19:09):
wheels, wings, gives memotivation to like you know.
You know I'm thinking wow,because there's a lot of people
that don't have opportunitiesthat we have.
There's a lot of.
You know, I'm trouble in thisworld, as we know, and I'm just
talking, you understand what I'mtrying to say.
Yeah, but I do have a lot ofcontemplation, I guess our
(19:31):
introspection.
I'm always thinking abouteverything, my past, where I
want to go.
I'm staying connected to thatritual all day.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yes, no matter what happens in the day something,
some plan gets gets broken orsomething I always think, hey,
I'm on the path.
I Don't know, I don't see theend from beginning at all, but I
just relax and, like asCasanova said, just flow, just
relax and let let life take you.
(20:05):
That's where your mindfulchoices come in.
Yeah, right from that question,yeah, so mindful choice to
relax, right and trust, asopposed to mindful choice to Go,
go, go, go go.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So, by and large, we're on the theme of intimacy,
like I think the biggest thingI'm getting from this is that
Relationship doesn't have tohave a particular formal style
to be beautiful in and of itself.
It's much more.
What I'm getting is this ideaof actually its Beauty of a
(20:43):
relationships in the eye of thebeholder or the beholders and I
don't want to be shamed becausemy last relationship Lasted a
month or two days or or a weekcorrect and you did it and you
did it wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Obviously you couldn't make that last, you
know yeah or you, you or what wetell ourselves.
As I fell in love with thewrong person, that didn't work
right.
All these things are like thatsecond guessing, yeah.
Something to realize, too, isit's To takes to the finger and
(21:17):
Australian, but the otherparty's got their own Mind,
their own free will.
Yeah, they've got freedom tochoose as well.
And we don't we don't oftentake, we all put the blame on
ourselves, yeah, but it's thethird.
They need to be there for thatthird and third relationship.
(21:38):
Yeah, so this is the levels ofintimacy, which goes along with
everything we've been talkingabout in earlier episodes, which
is vulnerability communication.
I mean, these are cliches.
You know, any marriagecounseling would be okay.
How's your communication?
But there's a reason that Imean that is a.
(22:01):
This is a profound thing Ithink we're not doing is
communicating.
Communicating our desires tosomeone we just met,
communicating our confusion,communicating our hopes and
dreams.
Not communicating anything.
We're just hoping that they getit, their actions.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
There's an alabaster story here in this section which
I think I guess I could sayseems like a profound feature of
intimacy that I haven't seentalked about.
You know, on YouTube videos ofthe counseling advice for
relationships and you say you'rewith a woman and you comment on
(22:40):
a sadness that's in the railsfrom a betrayal that she had
from a man before, and she'stalking about this past
boyfriend, but her history ofmen that has left like a sadness
, and you talk about how heranger comes and how whole
mixture of emotions, fromdespair to betrayal, flash
across her face.
(23:03):
And the last paragraph you saydid you notice, then, how I
softened your countenance withthe tip of my fingers?
Did you notice that I stayed?
You resisted, looking away,shaking your head a little,
tearing up a little, just alittle.
But I stayed.
I stayed right there with you,calming you down with the warmth
of my eyes and the warmth of myvoice and the warmth of my
(23:23):
fingers, tracing lines on yourcheek.
I have no answers for you, Isaid.
Love is a mystery, I said, butI stayed.
And well, first of all, the waythat's written I found
incredibly touching.
The first time I saw it Like Ifelt there to be an immense
(23:43):
truth and it's something to dowith that.
Got no answers, I've got noidea what's happened with you
before, Got no way of makingthat better, Got no intention
actually of changing that, butthat staying seems really
poignant in a way that I think alot of men maybe women too, but
(24:08):
a lot of men when things gettough emotionally with their
partner, will either try and fixit or run away Right, and I
think that there's a magic thereand intimacy that you're
touching on with this piece.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, there's some passages you're very close to my
heart, obviously, and I've seenit.
I mean, like there is no way oflike, say, a man's natural
impulse is to solve it for heror to check out.
I can't handle it.
Yeah, yeah, I haven't comment,but it's true.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, it's in that staying.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It's the same thing as we've been talking about all
this time.
There's an imitation in it,there's an empathy in it,
there's respect, there'shonoring her choices, honoring
her and just saying that I'm inthis with you.
I can't pretend to understandwhat has happened to you in your
past or you know, and I can'tsolve it.
(25:20):
You said it.
All I can do is stay, and stayis the only word.
So what's in the staying?
Staying?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
is in the staying.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I guess Just staying, oh no, I mean, like that's the
best I can say is right.
There can't describe it anydeeper or further, because I
don't know how to say it inwords that are that have any
meaning so poetically it makescomplete sense.
(25:49):
But then instructionallycoaching by a fermented you see
me struggling in these lastepisodes here in the port, with
poetic license, I feel like Iget, I can.
I can do my best to capture thespirit of that concept that you
just talked about, for instance, but to say it in an academic
way or in a instruction way or aclear cut, it's this and here's
(26:13):
an answer.
And here's, here's the way Isee it.
I just can't, I can't put words.
I struggle here.
I, the only way I can do, saythat kind of thing is the way it
makes me feel and the in, forinstance, that instance there,
and all I can imagine on herface and what I can see.
And I can only put it in thatkind of way without saying
there's any instruction.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I don't know how to do it and I'm starting in here
does it appear to you because itdoes to me that that concept of
staying without fixing orchanging or running away,
appears across the board inmeeting, dating relating with
women, like I think of being onthe corner of that bar the other
night with the bitchy girlbehind me and and I stayed with
(26:56):
her through all of that andallow that to continue and then
something else unfolded out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, so I think there's something very powerful
and persistent, like it is theprinciple of remember what I
said in an early episode, whichis there's a quiet assurance not
assurance of an outcome thisgirl might like slap you and run
away you're still no right butthere's a quiet assurance that
(27:25):
you are doing your job as a man,you are showing up.
That's that's the consistency,and that's the persistence, and
that's that is never dialed down.
It's who, it's who you, who youbecome, who you are, as opposed
to something you're trying.
So that that observation, jordan, that there's a consistency and
(27:48):
a persistence and a staying isa presence staying true you have
staying true to who you arewithout, without pulling it back
, without apology that's thething that shows up across the
board across the board.
Yeah, it's what it's.
(28:09):
It's the authenticity, theattraction that you have,
attractive quality.
That's what it is.
There's no discrepancy betweenthe way, between the way you you
move through the earth, yourwords and your actions, and what
you and who you really are, andI think that's it.
(28:31):
I think that's the biggestthing, because everyone's
different personality.
Some people are quiet, peopleare loud and funny and some
people are every kind ofvariation you can possibly
imagine.
But when there's no discrepancybetween the way they represent
themselves and the way they theyare internally, the way they
feel internally, there's analignment and that you can.
(28:53):
You can feel that we say theword presence.
A man like that can walk into aroom and there's, there's
something about him.
He's not there to show off, todominate, to be interesting, to
try and be cool.
None of that, none of the handof those, none of those things
exist.
He's just as who he is and he'sinviting everyone to meet him
(29:17):
on the same level, and it's arare thing because we're always
trying to shift a new mask.
I'm hanging out with these guysand they're cool.
I want to look like I'm cooltoo, so so I act cool.
The girl's really pretty and I'm, I'm gonna be him.
You know, I don't think I'mgood enough for her, so I'm
(29:40):
gonna act like I'm indifferent.
Right, we all do it, but thatjust can.
Just that's why I say to blur,to follow your gut, your
instinct, because that is whoyou are, and then what people
comment on you is Jordan.
You know what you're.
You're a very generous guy oryou're always something.
(30:01):
That's how you, the way peoplesee you, the way you really are.
That's the truth, not the wayyou see yourself.
You got a skewed vision ofyourself.
That's the trick.
Yeah.
Today isем cont annually with the.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
So let's kick off more or less where we left it
last time.
No warm up for us this morning.
We're in love, yeah, we're inthe way of love, and we've been
talking a lot about the way ofbeing in a relationship which,
(01:21):
on the one hand, is veryhonestly sharing how you feel
that relationship is and what'shappening and what it means, but
not planning for it to go inany particular direction and not
being attached or trying toforce it to go a certain way.
And there's a little paragraphhere where you say, oh, chiara
(01:43):
school, to a lover there.
Let us not let you and I bedifferent.
Let's never analyze this aslet's just be.
Let's just trust our love, letus not expect or demand.
And it's like there's lots oflofty statements in that
paragraph of what I think a lotof people would hope a
relationship would be.
You know, to continually liveout those beautiful summer days
(02:08):
of when it first happened.
But I wonder, what is it inyour experience that has people
start to get derailed from thoseearly house-y days of a romance
?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Well, I think that's been commented on a lot.
Why does love not last?
Why is they say it's 18 months,18 months, and then it kind of
drifts away, and I don't know.
Biology, routines, sameness,lack of variety, yeah I don't
(02:49):
know.
But I know that, I know that, Iknow that if it descends into
just routine and the mundane andthe normal and there is no,
like I said in our earliersession, there is no spiritual
yearning then it will devolveinto just the sameness of days,
(03:14):
and so the whole idea and thewhole concept of this book is
how to move towards beauty andadventure Adventure is the word
that we don't use enough, and itcould be adventure in one place
and you have to like go aroundafter the safari, and I'm saying
it could be, but it's still anadventurous spirit and seeking
(03:41):
actively to maintain that and torevive that and to hold that
adventurous spirit until the dayyou die.
I guess you can.
Yeah, big questions here.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
How and why.
That 18 month fixed windowseems to be what evolutionary
science is suggesting thathormones run out on a given day
after we first meet, and that'sit.
Do you think that even thatwill be?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I don't know there's a whole biological aspect to
looking at copulation and thatis, and there be some very smart
and intelligent and wellstudied people who say that you
know, that is the natural lifecycle of Enough to make a baby,
(04:32):
hmm, have time to make a baby,care for it just enough and then
go off and make another baby,right?
So anybody's anthropologist iscan study tribes or say, yeah,
that makes that aligns with this.
Or or animals, I Don't know.
I Don't know if I believe it ornot.
I just know that I Know.
(04:54):
I know that I don't know, butothers comment on that.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's not.
My Seems like we're moving intothe portion of this project.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Because this the journey of this Gentleman is
basically.
As you see, the last chapter iscalled you know, the way of the
way of love, the way ofsalvation is an excellent
salvation of what?
Salvation of us in general, orsalvation of him, you know, like
(05:33):
, like, where's it?
How could he be saved Frommediocrity and from what's?
What's his journey?
Where's he going next?
So yeah, you're getting to theend of the book, which becomes
more questions, which becomesmore philosophical, which
becomes less practical, whichbecomes a big bunch of I don't
know.
So get ready.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Let's let's talk a little bit about intimacy.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Regions the next thing.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, as you know, I like my analogies and metaphors.
This is one of my favorite ones.
You talk about a relationshiplike swimming in the ocean and
the surface level is very free,it's gonna energy or by the
surface very fast moving.
And if you go deeper so peoplescuba diving seal the richness
and the vitamins for colors.
But there's more pressure,you're more submerged.
(06:26):
And you say, people like theirdifferent depths, some people
like to go shallow, some peoplelike to go deep and even a
relationship.
One of you wants one level,another one it's another one.
Yeah, it's difficult.
I guess this is true Not justfor the depth, and as people in
relationship with things liketheir journey, their
personalities have, peopleevolve over time.
You may start off in the sameand people, that's true, drift
(06:49):
apart.
Things drift.
But I guess for many peoplethey say I gotta make this work.
It's working relationship.
That's kind of one level.
Another level is oh, we're justapart, now let's leave it.
What?
What's your view?
Do you have a balance field?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
to try and to try and you know, sometimes, things in,
that's what I'm saying.
Yeah, we, we, we drag it outand we fight for which is a
noble thing to do to try andreally understand.
You know why.
Why are you having thisdysfunction?
Why are we having thisdisconnect?
You know why have I beenconcentrating on my career so
much that I've forgotten to tohave fun and play with my, my
(07:28):
wife, right, and thoseexaminations are good, those
like life exam.
What is priority to me, what iswhat is my heart says?
I'm what I love the most.
What do I not want to lose here?
What's most important?
And those mindful choices arefantastic.
But to to Artificially tryingto keep things dragging along
(07:50):
when the depth shifts.
I mean that the whole point ofthis talking about the different
, the analogy of the differentdepths that we like to swim at
is no one's right, no one'swrong, and and that's our
feeling, you know relationships.
Why can't you be more like this?
I'm more, I want to have moremeaningful conversation with you
(08:11):
.
Why can't you be more like me,which is the right way?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Why can't you be more fun and take it easy and just
enjoy?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
like I gotta be so heavy all the time.
Which is the right way.
See, we're all saying that,that that we need counseling or
we need you need to change.
You need to change becauseyou're not doing relationships
right.
It should be more Right,exactly.
You said that's where we'relooking at the relationship as a
third entities is a key.
(08:39):
Yeah, excellent, yeah, so, yeah.
So I mean, like, the wholepoint of that is that if we
recognize that it's not a badthing if somebody wants to swim
at a light depth where it's funand easy and they can breathe,
doesn't?
Speaker 3 (08:56):
mean that their commitment is any less.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Doesn't mean that their commitment to their, the
relationship, or their love fortheir, for their spouse or their
, their, their woman or theirman, is any less than somebody
who likes to swim really deepand have profound conversations,
profound meaningful experiences.
It just means that we just havedifferent levels and we try and
(09:20):
force that person and they'lldo it because they love you, but
it's not the natural feel.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
This has been one of the most Important insights I've
got from you over the last yearor so, because if you say it's
it's a good thing to be lightand at the top of the ocean and
it's a good thing to be deep,and it depends on the person,
there's no shaming in thatanymore right.
And it's like at least the kindof places that I've been to
lately there's been anassumption that deeper is better
(09:48):
and that the more intimate, thedeeper you swim in that ocean,
the better You're doing in theart of relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Right, and actually that's a very um, it's just one
perspective of things exactlybecause it's also beautiful and
Just as life, affirming goodthings about having it that
light and easy breezy, norelationship, and it could last
(10:14):
forever too.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
And it's so easy to carry this like this un,
unconscious cultural norm, whichis you get into a relationship
and it's like that, and then, asevery month that goes by,
you've got to take it A layerdown into the depths of the
ocean.
And if you're falling behindbecause you don't want to see
the other person as much as youthe couple should at that point
(10:38):
in their relationship, thenyou're, you're keeping things up
because of fear.
Or if you're going too deepdown here on in the first month,
you're, you're too deep, you'retoo demanding, you want in too
much like this is the summer,you've got to keep it light,
yeah it's beautiful to get ridof those cultural constructs.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I think that's the heart of it there, and we cast a
lot of blame, we have a lot ofanguish and we think if only
things would change.
But if we recognize that's howwe flow, that's how it is, then
the trick and the art is to tryand find, or try to align
(11:22):
yourself with, something thatlikes the same depth as you.
Right, good luck, a good luck.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Exactly Same depth, but also with the same rhythm,
right yeah, because you in thesummer might be very different
to you in the winter.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's correct.
That's correct and maybe we cantake this analogy in all kinds
of directions, expand on it, butI think the idea is sound.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So is there an optimum depth for success and
length in a relationship or anoptimum depth for beauty?
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
A relationship that is like fun and light and easy
can last for years, for yourwhole life, and even though we
think, oh, it has to be profoundand have a lot of meaning.
But I don't buy that.
I think any depth is like.
You can go forever, as long asyou're aligned with who you are
and you're shifting over time.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
So yeah, I remember having a conversation with you
on this subject, like when Ifirst got back from America last
year, and it was like you andHans were, at least in that
moment, talking up the virtuesof staying in the surface and
Knut and I came back from thisbig trip talking the virtues of
actually touching that oceanfloor and getting our hands cut
(12:39):
to death with the coral downthere and we say like this has
got to be the way.
And you said something like inyour life you've seen a lot of
relationships that because ofthe belief that depth is good,
they go right down to the bottomof the ocean.
But because they do that heavylifting or that work or that
(13:00):
processing, it's almost as if bygoing right to the depth of
that, right to the depth of theocean together, it's almost as
if people can learn theirspiritual lesson or take their
spiritual lesson from thatrelationship really, really
quickly and they're done and itvanishes.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yes, I think that's a statement you did me.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I have no comments.
You don't want to commit tothat from this Well yeah,
because I don't know.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, but yeah, it seems to me that that is.
That seems right, likerelationships and love.
It's such a I don't know how totalk about it.
I don't know how to write aboutit Not really, because I write
about it in circles too.
Everything I wrote is all kindof circular and just like and
(13:51):
repetitious, and trying to pokeat it and trying to see it from
different angles andperspectives, and I don't know
if I was successful or not, butit feels like that was my best
attempt at writing about thisincredible, glorious concept of
love which is near and dear toeveryone's heart.
It's always the number oneconversation In every circle
(14:15):
that I've been in on earth.
Every culture you can talkabout.
I don't know boats you can talkabout, you know music, but when
it comes to the art of love andrelationships, everybody's
interested.
It always becomes the center ofattention when that topic comes
into the room, every guy andevery girl has what.
(14:36):
Because I want to know aboutthis too, I want to have
something to say about it.
It's always the number onesubject, this when it's brought
up.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
I think it's interesting, though maybe a
clarification point peoplereading this.
This seems because of the genreof the book.
It's very, very deep andmeaningful and we meet in person
, kick back off camera verylight and having fun and joking
around People reading this.
It's not saying the wayrelationships have to be like
this.
Deep and meaningful it can beeither.
That's the point.
The important thing again isthe spirit of it, not the depth,
(15:21):
or that comes down to your ownpersonality.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Yeah, contradictions are.
Because I'm very surface andfun and laugh and you guys
always see me in the same mood,right?
Yeah, I'm always joking and inmy relationship too, and yet
it's very meaningful, it'sstrong, profound and I think
about it a lot.
That's interesting.
I joke and I have fun and Iplay with you guys and I talk to
(15:47):
all the girls and smiling andwinking at everybody all the
time and I always take my time.
You know, I don't have to takethe time.
It's like it's an automaticthing of me that I sit back
virtually and wonder about thewhole thing wow, what does that
mean?
That's kind of cool.
(16:07):
I'm always like philosophizingabout something, always, even
though I'm like jumping aroundstrange, isn't it?
So this kind of stuff that I'mwriting here, it's things you
know.
I wrote in here that on abalcony, every man is a
philosopher, everybody becomesspin-o's.
When you stand on a balcony andit's, or at a window, you know,
(16:33):
just looking out and standingfor a long time, it just
contemplates and yeah, so I do alot of that.
I don't meditate, I don't thinkabout meditation.
I'm not a meditationist women.
(16:55):
It gives me a lot of peace inmy heart that I had.
It holds right for the world.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, you do say that you have a ritual and every
morning you consider who you areand what you want your life to
be like.
Yes, which seems like a serious, almost discipline.
Well, this is true, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, it is a.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's strange because there's almost a reverence.
About the who's sound strangeto say it.
There's almost a reverenceabout the way I move through a
day, you know.
Like I'm laughing joking havecoffee's with you running around
(17:45):
.
But if I'm walking somewhere,I'm never thinking like I, I Got
a biting shirt.
I don't think these kind ofthings, obviously.
I think the kind of things likeI'm in Bucharest here and what,
(18:07):
what was the glory of thisbeautiful city at one time, you
know?
And what are the people doingit?
What do they love.
I'm thinking these things allthe time, all the time.
So there's a kind of it like.
So the ritual, like is they doin the morning that I wrote
about in the book here, which isjust a quiet get up in the
(18:28):
morning, be grateful for the newday, consider who I am and what
do I want and and and what kindof memories you can make today
and that kind of.
That kind of flowing, but thatsame kind of and I lack a better
word that same kind ofreverence and gratefulness can
flip.
(18:48):
It is in beauty all today.
Even you guys may not see it onme, I'm thinking it all the
time.
All the time I'm thinking youknow when I'm not talking, which
is Most of the time Rest on thething.
Wow, how do we get to do this?
We get to sit in theconversation here.
That to me is like a powerfulthought gives me that, gives me
(19:09):
wheels, wings, gives memotivation to like you know.
You know I'm thinking wow,because there's a lot of people
that don't have opportunitiesthat we have.
There's a lot of.
You know, I'm trouble in thisworld, as we know, and I'm just
talking, you understand what I'mtrying to say.
Yeah, but I do have a lot ofcontemplation, I guess our
(19:31):
introspection.
I'm always thinking abouteverything, my past, where I
want to go.
I'm staying connected to thatritual all day.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yes, no matter what happens in the day something,
some plan gets gets broken orsomething I always think, hey,
I'm on the path.
I Don't know, I don't see theend from beginning at all, but I
just relax and, like asCasanova said, just flow, just
relax and let let life take you.
(20:05):
That's where your mindfulchoices come in.
Yeah, right from that question,yeah, so mindful choice to
relax, right and trust, asopposed to mindful choice to Go,
go, go, go go.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
So, by and large, we're on the theme of intimacy,
like I think the biggest thingI'm getting from this is that
Relationship doesn't have tohave a particular formal style
to be beautiful in and of itself.
It's much more.
What I'm getting is this ideaof actually its Beauty of a
(20:43):
relationships in the eye of thebeholder or the beholders and I
don't want to be shamed becausemy last relationship Lasted a
month or two days or or a weekcorrect and you did it and you
did it wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Obviously you couldn't make that last, you
know yeah or you, you or what wetell ourselves.
As I fell in love with thewrong person, that didn't work
right.
All these things are like thatsecond guessing, yeah.
Something to realize, too, isit's To takes to the finger and
(21:17):
Australian, but the otherparty's got their own Mind,
their own free will.
Yeah, they've got freedom tochoose as well.
And we don't we don't oftentake, we all put the blame on
ourselves, yeah, but it's thethird.
They need to be there for thatthird and third relationship.
(21:38):
Yeah, so this is the levels ofintimacy, which goes along with
everything we've been talkingabout in earlier episodes, which
is vulnerability communication.
I mean, these are cliches.
You know, any marriagecounseling would be okay.
How's your communication?
But there's a reason that Imean that is a.
(22:01):
This is a profound thing Ithink we're not doing is
communicating.
Communicating our desires tosomeone we just met,
communicating our confusion,communicating our hopes and
dreams.
Not communicating anything.
We're just hoping that they getit, their actions.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
There's an alabaster story here in this section which
I think I guess I could sayseems like a profound feature of
intimacy that I haven't seentalked about.
You know, on YouTube videos ofthe counseling advice for
relationships and you say you'rewith a woman and you comment on
(22:40):
a sadness that's in the railsfrom a betrayal that she had
from a man before, and she'stalking about this past
boyfriend, but her history ofmen that has left like a sadness
, and you talk about how heranger comes and how whole
mixture of emotions, fromdespair to betrayal, flash
across her face.
(23:03):
And the last paragraph you saydid you notice, then, how I
softened your countenance withthe tip of my fingers?
Did you notice that I stayed?
You resisted, looking away,shaking your head a little,
tearing up a little, just alittle.
But I stayed.
I stayed right there with you,calming you down with the warmth
of my eyes and the warmth of myvoice and the warmth of my
(23:23):
fingers, tracing lines on yourcheek.
I have no answers for you, Isaid.
Love is a mystery, I said, butI stayed.
And well, first of all, the waythat's written I found
incredibly touching.
The first time I saw it Like Ifelt there to be an immense
(23:43):
truth and it's something to dowith that.
Got no answers, I've got noidea what's happened with you
before, Got no way of makingthat better, Got no intention
actually of changing that, butthat staying seems really
poignant in a way that I think alot of men maybe women too, but
(24:08):
a lot of men when things gettough emotionally with their
partner, will either try and fixit or run away Right, and I
think that there's a magic thereand intimacy that you're
touching on with this piece.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, there's some passages you're very close to my
heart, obviously, and I've seenit.
I mean, like there is no way oflike, say, a man's natural
impulse is to solve it for heror to check out.
I can't handle it.
Yeah, yeah, I haven't comment,but it's true.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, it's in that staying.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It's the same thing as we've been talking about all
this time.
There's an imitation in it,there's an empathy in it,
there's respect, there'shonoring her choices, honoring
her and just saying that I'm inthis with you.
I can't pretend to understandwhat has happened to you in your
past or you know, and I can'tsolve it.
(25:20):
You said it.
All I can do is stay, and stayis the only word.
So what's in the staying?
Staying?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
is in the staying.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I guess Just staying, oh no, I mean, like that's the
best I can say is right.
There can't describe it anydeeper or further, because I
don't know how to say it inwords that are that have any
meaning so poetically it makescomplete sense.
(25:49):
But then instructionallycoaching by a fermented you see
me struggling in these lastepisodes here in the port, with
poetic license, I feel like Iget, I can.
I can do my best to capture thespirit of that concept that you
just talked about, for instance, but to say it in an academic
way or in a instruction way or aclear cut, it's this and here's
(26:13):
an answer.
And here's, here's the way Isee it.
I just can't, I can't put words.
I struggle here.
I, the only way I can do, saythat kind of thing is the way it
makes me feel and the in, forinstance, that instance there,
and all I can imagine on herface and what I can see.
And I can only put it in thatkind of way without saying
there's any instruction.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I don't know how to do it and I'm starting in here
does it appear to you because itdoes to me that that concept of
staying without fixing orchanging or running away,
appears across the board inmeeting, dating relating with
women, like I think of being onthe corner of that bar the other
night with the bitchy girlbehind me and and I stayed with
(26:56):
her through all of that andallow that to continue and then
something else unfolded out ofthat.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Yeah, so I think there's something very powerful
and persistent, like it is theprinciple of remember what I
said in an early episode, whichis there's a quiet assurance not
assurance of an outcome thisgirl might like slap you and run
away you're still no right butthere's a quiet assurance that
(27:25):
you are doing your job as a man,you are showing up.
That's that's the consistency,and that's the persistence, and
that's that is never dialed down.
It's who, it's who you, who youbecome, who you are, as opposed
to something you're trying.
So that that observation, jordan, that there's a consistency and
(27:48):
a persistence and a staying isa presence staying true you have
staying true to who you arewithout, without pulling it back
, without apology that's thething that shows up across the
board across the board.
Yeah, it's what it's.
(28:09):
It's the authenticity, theattraction that you have,
attractive quality.
That's what it is.
There's no discrepancy betweenthe way, between the way you you
move through the earth, yourwords and your actions, and what
you and who you really are, andI think that's it.
(28:31):
I think that's the biggestthing, because everyone's
different personality.
Some people are quiet, peopleare loud and funny and some
people are every kind ofvariation you can possibly
imagine.
But when there's no discrepancybetween the way they represent
themselves and the way they theyare internally, the way they
feel internally, there's analignment and that you can.
(28:53):
You can feel that we say theword presence.
A man like that can walk into aroom and there's, there's
something about him.
He's not there to show off, todominate, to be interesting, to
try and be cool.
None of that, none of the handof those, none of those things
exist.
He's just as who he is and he'sinviting everyone to meet him
(29:17):
on the same level, and it's arare thing because we're always
trying to shift a new mask.
I'm hanging out with these guysand they're cool.
I want to look like I'm cooltoo, so so I act cool.
The girl's really pretty and I'm, I'm gonna be him.
You know, I don't think I'mgood enough for her, so I'm
(29:40):
gonna act like I'm indifferent.
Right, we all do it, but thatjust can.
Just that's why I say to blur,to follow your gut, your
instinct, because that is whoyou are, and then what people
comment on you is Jordan.
You know what you're.
You're a very generous guy oryou're always something.
(30:01):
That's how you, the way peoplesee you, the way you really are.
That's the truth, not the wayyou see yourself.
You got a skewed vision ofyourself.
That's the trick.
Yeah.
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