Developers vs. Network Engineers

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The divide between network engineers and developers has long been a source of frustration, misunderstanding, and blame in the tech world. When applications fail, the classic refrain "it's the network" often echoes through organizations, leaving network engineers scrambling to prove their innocence while developers remain convinced of their code's perfection.

In this enlightening conversation, former Cisco developer advocate Erika Dietrick joins hosts Andy Lapteff and Jeff Clark to unpack the root causes of this technological rift. Erika offers a rare dual perspective, having worked both as a software engineer and in Cisco's Technical Assistance Center (TAC). She explains how educational paths create fundamentally different mindsets: "Developers learn to code, period. We do not learn how our computer works. We do not learn how the network works."

Andy shares his personal struggles with learning automation, admitting to starting and quitting "every Python class on planet Earth." This prompts Erika's most valuable insight – that learning to "think like a developer" matters more than syntax or commands. The conversation explores how network engineers often find themselves drowning in daily operational tasks while being expected to add coding skills "for no more money," creating resistance to automation despite its potential benefits.

The discussion takes unexpected turns through topics like cultural differences between teams, the challenges of breaking technical silos, and how AI might actually help bridge these gaps without replacing human expertise. Erika outlines her upcoming free course designed specifically for network engineers learning to code with AI – addressing the exact educational gap that has frustrated network professionals for years.

Whether you identify more with Andy's automation struggles or Jeff's enthusiasm for Python scripting, this episode offers practical perspectives on healing the developer-networker divide. 

Subscribe to Erika's Youtube channel here: here:https://www.youtube.com/@erika_thedev

Subscribe to our podcast for more conversations that tackle the human side of technology and join our Discord community at linktr.ee/artofneteng.

Find everything AONE right here: https://linktr.ee/artofneteng

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Art of Network Engineering, where
technology meets the human sideof IT.
Whether you're scaling networks, solving problems or shaping
your career, we've got theinsights, stories and tips to
keep you ahead in theever-evolving world of
networking.
Welcome to the Art of NetworkEngineering podcast.
My name is Andy Laptev, networkengineer extraordinaire turned

(00:20):
product marketer.
Networking.
Yeah, tonight today, thisepisode episode.
I am joined by the returningjeff clark.
Hi, jeff hi, good to see you youwant to remind folks who you
are, where you work and what youdo oh yeah, I could do that.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's like almost like my job isn't to speak for a
living, I'm a solutions engineer, systems engineer or sales
engineer, depending on how youinterpret.
Se over at fortinet.
All my things start with theword Forti.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
And the giggle that you hear in the background is
Erica Dietrich, known in thesocial world as Erica the Dev.
How you doing, Erica?

Speaker 3 (00:59):
I am doing fantastic now that I'm talking to you guys
, yay, and drinking some wineout of my mug.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Oh very nice, Fancy.
Now I feel kind of of my mug.
Oh very nice, Perfect.
Now I feel kind of weak with mybubble, my club soda.
So good for you.
I wasn't going to ask if thatwas like water.
But it's gin.
I didn't really match the titleintro of this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
Like heavy metal.
Now we're going to drink somewater.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
I have to keep my voice.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Are we drinking?
Are we drinking red or?

Speaker 3 (01:26):
white, oh white, just whatever's in the fridge.
It's all it means to an end,right?

Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's not.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Shake the cupboards off.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Get the nerve off.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Erica, where do you work?
This is a loaded question, buttell the folks who you are, what
you do for a living and whereyou work.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
I am newly open to opportunities, so I just left my
role as a developer advocate atCisco, which is basically a
software engineer that likes totalk to people.
Now I am a inadvertent contentcreator and also just educator.
I guess I'm going to callmyself an educator because I
can't fully embrace theinfluencer title.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
I love the inadvertent content creator.
That's kind of how I stumbledinto this too.
We were a study group.
Somebody said you want to do apodcast, and years later, here I
am and my kids my kids arelittle and they Googled me the
other day at school Like daddy,are you famous?
Cause I Googled you.
Your face popped up everywhere.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
I mean between like remote work, like trying to
reach people, and then like Ifeel like our obligation as
techies to teach people, toteach the next generation or
just our peers.
It's just really easy to fallinto that as a side hustle.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
So you just left Cisco, correct?

Speaker 3 (02:35):
So, excuse me, Friday was my last day, so it's been
like three business days being afree bird and like waking up
whatever time I want, being anartist, a content creator oh
yeah, thank you for not callingyourself a creator yeah, I don't
know what title to settle on,but people are gonna give me
whatever title they want, so I'mlike whatever musicians and
painters, and you know.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I'm a visionary, yeah , um, what were you doing at
Cisco?
You were a developer advocateis.
Is that what that is?

Speaker 3 (03:05):
Yes, so it's an ambiguous role to explain, but
usually you have a softwareengineering background and then
you help developers use theproducts, you develop free
resources for them and also youkind of advocate for them in the
company like, hey, this APIsucks, this is what needs to
change, and at Cisco we've got alot of products, so it was a
pretty big job.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
So that's a good segue.
I guess you were a softwaredeveloper working in a
networking vendor, advocatingfor software, and that's kind of
I guess why I wanted to bringyou in and have this
conversation.
I can only go by my ownexperience, but as a network
engineer, in the places I'veworked and they were rather
large places we were very siloed.
Not only were the networkfunctions siloed, like Jefferson

(03:43):
Security, I didn't managefirewalls, we had a security
team.
I didn't manage the LAN, we hada LAN team.
So the developers were in someglass tower with champagne and
filet mignon and ping pongtables.
Right, and I say thathalf-jokingly, but rightfully so
.
So the work that they're doing,they're creating applications
and services that generaterevenue for the company.

(04:05):
I get it.
You want those people to behappy and you want to take good
care of them and the networkingpeople down in the slums and in
the dirt who would always getyelled at for all the things.
We were a call center, right,we didn't really.
It depends culturally on howthe company looks at the network
, Like the network is enablingthose applications to reach
people.

(04:30):
But so where I've been, there'sbeen a lot of silos and when I
would interact with developersit was usually in an outage.
Something bad happened so wedidn't collaborate, and we'll
get into this a little later.
I think that there's culturalshifts.
I think that developers andnetworking people are starting
to work more together as teams,which is really smart.
Our buddy, nick Calcutta, whois a college professor down in
Florida he said the place heworks they're starting to bring
those teams together and seesome really good results.
But I guess I want to start inmy reality, which is I get a

(04:52):
call at two in the morning.
Somebody says the network'sbroken.
It's the network I'm scramblingto figure out.
Ooh hi, doggie, I love you,it's okay.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
I love you.
Okay, sorry, I was going to sayno, no, no, I have two doggies
here, I can bring them in.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Not much I can do it sounds like a big doggy Two big
doggies.

Speaker 3 (05:09):
My Aiden is kicking in Two big doggies.
Similar to Great Pyrenees, likebig white fluffs.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Oh man, oh God, sound angry if you have to go check.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
They're easily agitated.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
So are mine.
The UPS drivers and the Amazondrivers, those poor people.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
I gave them bully sticks, hoping it would
entertain them for an hour whilewe talked.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
So why to circle back away from my ADD and back to
the show?
It's the network, and sometimesit was the network, but many
other times it was not.
Many other times it wasdevelopers that didn't have
sufficient network knowledge toknow whether it was the network
or not.
I was joking.
Right before the show started Itold Eric we spent days on this

(05:54):
outage.
That was definitely the network, because the application people
definitely wasn't theapplication.
And it turned out they had anexpired certificate on the
server hosting there and I waslivid because I'm like I just
spent four days getting yelledat trying to find the thing and
it was so and again, that wasjust a one off.
It didn't happen all the time.
But I guess we just talk abouthey, developers and network

(06:15):
engineers, we need each other,we, we have this weird kind of
symbiotic relationship, but wedon't typically work together.
You make the application, wemake the network.
When somebody wants to onboardthe application, we get a
firewall request.
Here's the ports we need andwe'll test.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
And the developers never know what ports they need.
I don't know why.
Right, yeah, so here we go.
I was like, that's so true.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I just thought we kind of have a conversation
about what's been yourexperience as a developer.
Have you ever had somethingbreak and say it's the network,
because you know yourapplication's fine, like, let's
start there?

Speaker 3 (06:50):
I had like five trains of thought when you were
talking, so I feel like thiscould go in many different
directions, so my background isa little bit unique.
So first of all, I wait, can Icuss on here, is it?

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Okay, I don't mind shit talking developers because
I also shit talk developers andI also come from some network
engineering background a littlebit, and familially my dad was
both network and softwareengineer, so that won't bother
me.
But my background and myexperience experiencing that
divide.
First of all, when I retrainedinto tech right, I was studying
my master's of softwareengineering.
I was entering with a devmindset, but I retrained into
tech right, I was studying mymaster's of software engineering
.
I was entering with a devmindset, but I entered Cisco TAC

(07:28):
, which is network support right.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
So that is my network engineering experience, which I
know is not a full experience,but no, cisco TAC.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
The smartest people I know in networking spend time
in TAC.
Pete Lomber's company.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
It's a rough job.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
But you learn so much .
Yeah, I have relied so much ontech Like I have called tech
millions of times, and the helpthat I've received has been so
appreciated because they do notget enough credit, for sure.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
There's something to be said for people who can fix
things when they break, becausethere's not a lot on when things
break.
Right, you are really okay.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Sure, you can learn to code, and that's not like an
emergency most of the time right, but being able to fix
something when there is noguidance is a huge, it's a huge
skill.
But anyway, not only fixsomething, but like the big
thing and the money on the lineand people are mad and like our
stuff's broken and just likeeverybody blames the network,
everybody blames the vendor.
Well, it's fricking thembecause it's it's not working.
So hold on real quick.
How did you go from likesoftware development MBA person

(08:21):
to like Cisco tech?

Speaker 3 (08:23):
So I got an internship while I was getting
my master's degree and I had ahigh school friend who was
working at Cisco.
I'm just kind of like hey, Iknow from my experience taking
life to the face before goingback for my master's that I need
real world experience, likeASAP, right.
He's like, hey, cisco is agreat company, it's so fine that
you don't know any networking.
Just come interview with us,right?
That interview was weird too,because I like show up in a

(08:48):
formal dress, right.
I thought this was like otherjobs, where you like get dressed
up.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
I show up in a dress and they're like what the fuck,
always overdressed for theinterview.
I am a firm believer in that.
I've worn a suit for everyinterview and I've been looked
at funny like bro.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
I respect that.
Let's show up just withenthusiasm and they're asking me
like, oh, how would youtroubleshoot the network in this
situation?
And I came up with like twooptions.
I'm like, I'm sorry, like I'mjust here with enthusiasm,
that's.
I'm just going to be honest.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I wouldn't write a Python script.
That's what you said.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
So, anywho, I started as an intern and I did
transition to full time while Iwas still getting my master's.
So talk about taking from afire hose like brand new to two
different fields, but anywaylike brand new to two different
fields.
But anyway, I worked on thefirewall team.
I'm not going to say anythingcrazy about that, except I had
to interface with developers alot in a number of escalations,

(09:32):
enhancements, whatever, and evenjust as being support for the
entire company, right whenthere's kind of a food chain in
the company.
I think support's usually atthe bottom.
So you talked about likedevelopers being in their ivory
tower and being above support oralso network engineers, and
then I think you also got likesales, maybe above all that.
So I experienced that 100% LikeI would be the knowledgeable

(09:53):
person.
I would have done my research,I've taken my notes, I've filed
a full on accurate bug reportand then I sent it to the
developer and they want to talkdown to you or pretend it's not
a problem or that you've gottensomething wrong, or let me get
on the call and try to figure itout for you, and just they'd be
trying to talk bad about people, but they're so condescending,
aren't they?
Yes, yes, you just they wouldfind as many reasons they could

(10:15):
to reject a reason, to have tolook into something.
It just there is so much Icould say about the egoism of
developers.
They are like the stallion, Ifeel like, of tech.
It's the thing that people cansee.
It's flashy, it sounds cool.
You just get a lot of egos inthere, people who think they're
the shit.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
This feels important because part of what we're
talking about, I guess, is thecultural divide between our two
worlds, and I actually I washalf joking when I said ivory
tower and stuff, but it'shelpful context for me to hear
that that's their experiencecoming in.
I don't know if that happens inuniversity, I don't know if
that's the companies who bringthem in and just want them super
happy so they stay.
Is it maybe both?

(10:52):
How does that develop?

Speaker 3 (10:54):
Oh, that's such a hard question.
So I think in college there isthis I think there's a culture
of ego in general.
Right, it's in the professors,it's in the students who come in
knowing that's what they wantto do.
They've been coding sincewhatever age, and then you have
people like me.
I just want to work together.
I just want to build coolthings.
Like why are we being like this?
So I don't experience this asmuch in network engineering.

(11:16):
This is a pro I think ofnetwork engineering is that I
don't feel like on a mission toout each other as being frauds,
whereas you might see onlinelike we're constantly talking
about.
What is a 10X engineer?
What makes you a real developer, all this other bullshit and
that does kind of start incollege.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I failed out of computer science, so I didn't
get to experience any of that.
It might've been.
That's very helpful context forme, because that is really the
that I feel like that's what Ireceived in those outage calls.
It's absolutely not myapplication, it's absolutely
your crappy network, because I'mso smart and I know all the
things.
Somebody in the chat which Ithink this is a good place to

(11:53):
bring this up why don'tdevelopers know what ports they
need and what IP addresses theyare using?

Speaker 3 (11:58):
So I actually I slightly alluded to this in my
LinkedIn post today.
But developers learn to code,period.
We do not learn how ourcomputer works.
We do not learn how the networkworks.
We learn nothing but to code,which I understand that
partially.
It is a hard skill to learn.
There's a lot to it, right.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
There's enough.
There the focus is placed there.

Speaker 3 (12:19):
but it is a real problem I mentioned in my post
today we don't learn how todeploy our applications.
I remember sitting in myclasses and I was writing these
applications and I'm like Iwonder how people would access
this.
And this was before I worked atCisco or anything, but there's
just none of that.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's funny Cause I've always wondered about that
from the developers here.
I work for a vendor, so we'vegot the hardware that has the
software running on top of itand we're constantly dealing
with developers.
We've got this bug, we've gotthat bug, we're looking at the
mantis, we're going to seewhat's the schedule for that to
be fixed, whatever.
And I'm always wondering arethose guys just really super
smart and understand firewalls?
Or are they really justbuilding components that

(12:58):
essentially run an automationscript?
So it just seems like a lot oftimes they don't know the
networking side of it.
They don't even know some ofthe security side.
They're very different.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
To be totally fair, I think there's a lot of silos in
tech period.
There's not a lot of people whoare just gung-ho about hey,
technology impacts everything.
I should learn right.
But I think that the pain isjust really high between these
two groups of people.
It's more noticeable.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
I'm a better network engineer today than I was five
years ago because I have startedto embrace some dev stuff.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
I've been watching your journey.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I've been watching you.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
I saw you wrote your first Python script.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
That was like months ago, but Well, and it's really
been, and now I'm in containersand Kubernetes and Linux and I'm
really really enjoying it.
But it's been a journey andthere was a time when I wanted
nothing to do with any of thisand part of that was because and
I think you alluded to thisthere's so much to learn with

(13:54):
coding and development that youcan just stay there because you
need to know all this stuff andif you start putting in
networking and firewall rulesand all that stuff, it just it
pulls you away from your coreskill, and it was.
It was kind of the same with me.
I was so busy and drowning inwork and keeping the lights on
when they said, well, now we allhave to automate and learn
Python and CICD pipelines andget, I'm like I am drowning,

(14:14):
guys Like so.
So I publicly which probablywasn't great for my career, but
I publicly cried about it andyelled about it for years
because I'm like I am not adeveloper.
I went into networking to notbe a developer.
But here we are years later.
So I guess I feel like today, abetter network person.
I guess the developers if thedevelopers can learn some
networking and the networkerscan learn some development, I

(14:36):
guess that's the golden place togo.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
I think what's the real problem here is and I've
tried to touch on this towardsthe end of my Cisco career and
I'm going to try to continuedoing it but where do you draw
the line?
Right, Because you need tolearn some development, in your
own words, but obviously youdon't need to learn as much as
as a software engineer.
That wouldn't make any sense,you don't have the time for that
, etc.
So where do you draw that lineand how do you make that easy
for you?

(14:58):
Right now, I don't think Ireally do.
And vice versa.
Right, as a software engineer,I had the luxury of working at
Cisco and getting that networkengineering education, but I
wouldn't know where to tell asoftware engineer to start Like,
oh, this is what you need toknow, this is where you go to do
it.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
And I don't know from a software engineer, like a
developer's perspective, howthey would even like do they
have visibility when you'reworking in silos?
I didn't.
I couldn't even see or log inthe firewalls in my environment.
So if there was a problem inthe path it was a firewall on my
problem.
So I don't even know what I'mexpecting of a developer, like
when something breaks, like canthey?
They can't get in my routersand switches, they can't.

(15:32):
I don't even know what test youcould run.
Well, it doesn't work, likeping failed, right.
But but I think introubleshooting, if I think our
customers would have been madehappier, quicker, if I could
work with a developer and theycould work with me and we could
kind of if I knew a little bitabout their world and they knew
a little bit about my world, andthen, well, did you check this
and what about that?
And it just never happened inmy career in networking.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Well, and there's again there's like there's like
five different again paths.
I could take this down, butbeing at Cisco as the developer,
interacting with networkengineers, something I can also
say.
Even if you have that desire tobridge the gap and to be
curious, we speak two differentlanguages.
Like I will even be talkingabout automation.
I will hear somebody explainsomething I'm like why are they

(16:15):
talking about it like that?
Like why are they using thoseterms?
Like that doesn't make anysense and they feel the same
about me, right?
And who's really to say whatthe right way to say it is?

Speaker 1 (16:23):
This is the challenge I've had over the years with
automation platforms that peoplebuild is they're built by devs,
so the terminology they use andthe logic, like none of it.
I don't feel like the networkcontext is there.
Hey, networking people learnthe dev stuff because the devs
wrote the stuff and here's whatwe have to do and I forget that.
My job now is I'm doing stuffin automation and I see the data

(16:47):
and we talk about it.
It comes out like the networkautomation forum talks about
this too and autocon and allthat, but I think I don't know
if 30% maybe of networks areautomated and of that, very
little.
The number I keep sayingpublicly, which I think is
somewhere true, is likesomewhere around 70% of the
world's networks have zeroautomation and until so, maybe

(17:08):
it's people like us, it's peoplelike you with the content
you're making and if we can, yousaid something about the
language.
We don't speak the samelanguage.
So maybe if we can start tonormalize, if you can normalize
some dev language for somebodylike me and make it-.
I'm trying, it's hard thoughit's hard, but you're doing a

(17:30):
great job, but it's hard work.
But there's a culturalcomponent of the networking
industry resisting automation.
It's another language.
They're drowning in work.
Blah, blah, blah.
You just go down the line.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Well, I'll be totally honest with you too, as I don't
know how much expertise youguys should be required to gain
in this area.
I don't know.
I kind of have my doubts aboutlike she'll be providing tooling
or like making this easier fory'all.
Why does it make sense?
You need to be networkengineering experts and
developers.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
And where's that line , like to your point, how much?
And I guess we lean on thecurriculum right, like I was
Before my job.
Now I was studying for my CCNPand there was a ton of
automation in it.
So we rely, I rely oneducational materials from
vendors to help direct me inlike what I should know and how
much of it I should know.
And I think that because Ciscowas such a big learning beast,

(18:15):
right, there was a lot ofautomation.
I know it's now in the CCNA andI know that there was a lot in
the MP.
So it seems like the industry,if their learning platform is a
barometer of the industry, ismoving in that direction.
But I don't know how much weneed to know.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
And, like I, think you need a.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
GitHub account for like interviews.
I'm like crap, wow, but that'sa thing.
It's getting serious.
It seems like it.
Right, I have a GitHub account,I follow people, I star things,
like I put like I don't evenknow.
So here's where I'm at.
Like that python script thatyou talked about, that I that I
did.
I don't even know if I shouldput it in there because I stole
it from somebody else from acourse I was taking.

(18:50):
Well, like because I knowthere's a joke like everybody
steals each other's codes.
But I was taking a class andthey showed me what to do and I
did the thing and oh yeah, butdoes that go in my almost
nobody's writing it from scratch.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah.
Coding is a big word right now.
Oh my God, you're going tostress me out, but that's that's
where you're at in your journey.
Like we all start with the copypaste exercise, generic
projects, blah, blah, blah.
So no one's going to out youfor that.
But what?
Where I really feel bad for you, andy, and for everyone, is
that developer education suckspretty bad, like we do not know

(19:24):
how to teach people to code.
That's why more people don'tknow how to code.
In my opinion, whether or notyou want to be a developer, not
only does developer educationsuck, but then you try to apply
it to network engineers, whereyou have to apply domain
expertise, which is a wholenother ball of wax.
Right, and I don't want to saythat you guys are set up to fail
, but it's definitely not easy.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
It feels that way.
I'll tell you what I think,actually what the problem is.
In the chat, systemmtu1 wrotethat he'd appreciate it if the
devs would stop putting in themessage telling people to
contact the networkadministrator.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
That's why we have to learn all this stuff because
we're the ones that getcontacted.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
And that makes it a mean joke.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
So here's the interesting thing, and I don't
like it.
I didn't like it then, I don'tlike it now.
But somebody else said it inthe chat earlier.
They alluded to the network.
Engineers are expected to knowa lot about, or a little about,
a lot of things.
So when the app team says thenetwork's broken, it's on us to
prove it's not.
And that is a lot more thanjust proving out your network.

(20:22):
That is a lot more than justproving out your network.
So and that's what's alwaysfrustrated me is I'm paid to be
a network engineer, but I alsohave to have domain expertise in
everything that lives in theenvironment.
And now I have to be a dev forno more money.
Like that was my big, likereally I'm drowning.
Now I gotta be a dev just tokeep my job.
Like it sucked.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
I've noticed that this seems to be a trend in tech
in general too is all of thefields are blending.
Right, where one field startsand where another ends is
blending a lot, and at a biggercompany for sure like a dev is
just going to code just thathalo around their laptop, spend
their two hours coding for thesprint and then done.
But a lot of companies forinstance, I was a software
engineer at a startup and samething, right Like I, they're

(21:03):
just like all right, we want youto create a CICD pipeline.
I'm like I've never done that.
Okay, like what are therequirements?
We don't know, just makesomething.
Okay, learned AWS.
So you're just constantly beingput in these situations where
you have to somehow rapidlybecome an expert at things, and
I think that's really hard on us.
I don't think it's veryrealistic.
I had another point, but Iforgot it in explaining that.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
It'll come back.
You have my attention with theeducation piece because I have
signed up for, started and quitevery single Python class that
exists on planet Earth, everysingle one, oh yeah, so to your
point.
I thought that maybe there wassomething wrong with me, but
maybe not to say there isn't.
But maybe there was somethingwrong with me, but maybe not to
say there isn't, but maybethere's.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
Also, it's indicative of the education, like you said
this is my whole platformmaking it fun, making it simple.
Cut out all the bullshit, allthe 10 X engineer stuff,
whatever I think, and also Iknow we all like to rag on AI
and how much we're annoyed by it.
But some positives of the wholeAI thing.
First of all, they're comingout with AI intelligence agents
and I think there's opportunityfor people to develop one time

(22:07):
right.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (22:15):
So an AI agent?
It's basically someone writesan application that calls an LLM
to do stuff for you, Instead ofjust asking chat GPT.
I don't know what does thiserror message mean?
Right, you can code an agentthat asks the LLM, the the error
agent error message is, andthen, oh, if it's this, go ahead
and do this for me, right?
It's basically a form of aiautomation is, I guess, a good
way but anyway these are thekinds of things that I think
that we need to be.

(22:35):
I think we should be pushingcompanies to develop for us.
I would like companies likecisco to be developing more of
this on behalf of networkengineers.
These, these are things thatyou guys need, versus just hey,
you guys need to learn to codeeverything from scratch.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
What do they need to provide that they're not?
Like right now they're puttingall this automation I'm not
defending them they're puttingall this automation stuff in the
certification guides that weuse to shape our careers.
What do they need to do thatthey're not?
You think?
Lean more heavily on the end.
I just think that they're notyou think, lean more heavily on
the AI.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
I just think that they should use the technology
available to us and bake thingsinto products or offering agents
.
You can start linking agentstogether to do multi-action
tasks right.
Cisco would be a great personto do that for network engineers
.
Create a multi-agent frameworkto do whatever.
Whatever tasks that you guyswant done right.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Let's explore one of my cognitive biases around
automation and AI.
Is gasoline on that fire?
I have a feeling.
Well, no, I love it and I useit.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Oh, then my wheels slumber.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
It's super helpful, right, automation is going to
take our jobs.
That's one of my core fears,right and now, when you just
explained AI agents, I hear you,but I've heard a lot of
developers say they're not goingto need us because you can
create and develop applicationswith AI.
Now Is automation.
Here's a reframe that I've had.

(23:51):
I'm going to ask you a question, but this is all.
Just.
I've been in this world for acouple of years just being very
curious about automation and theproblem in networking and it's
going to take our jobs, right.
But there's also the shortageof talent.
We don't have enough networkpeople.
So that kind of changed my mind.
Like, oh well, if we canleverage automation tools and AI
tools to help bridge that gap,so that I'm not working every

(24:13):
maintenance window every daybecause there's too much work,
so I kind of see the benefit inthat.
So I used to be afraid ofautomation and AI taking our
jobs, but if there aren't enoughof us if that's true I think
it's true I don't hire.
I guess that can help bridgethat gap.
Do you think automation and AIis going to make network
engineers and developers go away?

Speaker 3 (24:30):
At least not anytime in the near future.
I'm not an oracle, right, so Ican't say when, but not in the
near future.
And the point of automationaryis to take away basically
tedious task, right, we're notgoing to get rid of people with
brains and we're not going toget rid of people who can talk
to people.
If you are developing yourcritical thinking and problem
solving skills and you're not anasshole, then you're going to

(24:51):
have a job.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
It's true.
The other thing I think, andy,when we talk about some of the
AI stuff and the automation andreally learning to develop and
all that, I think what it endsup doing is it makes it so that
an engineer, a single engineer,can do the work of 10 engineers.
Now I don't mean that youreplace 10 engineers.
You can be, as an organization,more productive across the web.
I saw Erica's eyes almost rollout of her head when I said vibe

(25:15):
coding, because it's such abuzzword everyone's using right
now.
Who would have vibe code?

Speaker 1 (25:19):
I refuse to look it up.
I saw my buddy Dwan talkingabout it and I'm just like I
can't.
It's almost like social media.
I can't create another accountto try to stay relevant.
I'm just over it all.
But now vibe coding.
I'm like no, I'm still tryingto learn.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
That's where you draw the line.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
I just can't do it.
I'm still trying to learnPython, Like vibe.
We talk about it.
We're here.
What is Vibe coding?

Speaker 3 (25:41):
I had to look it up because people were approaching
me asking my opinion on this.
I'm like I Googled it andapparently Vibe coding is a
trend where you're using AI tocode, like using prompts, right,
and then it spits out code, andthat's not necessarily weird.
The weird part is you don'thave to understand the code.
You just spit out code and ifstuff is working or you think
it's working, then you're done.
So vibe coders don't believeyou need to understand how to

(26:04):
code.
You just tell AI what you want.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
And I 100% do not believe in that, and that's so.
My brother is.
He's a developer, he's big intoAI and what he's able to do
with his AI agent, versus whatI'm able to do, who has very
minimal development skills.
He's able to do incrediblethings because he knows how to
code.
He understands the innerworkings and what this thing can

(26:31):
actually do.
He understands the words to use.
He understands how to say theright development words.
You were talking aboutdifferent languages that we're
speaking here.
He understands the language andthe AI understands the language
and he can better portray to itwhat he wants done, whereas I
have to first figure out if whatI'm asking it is even possible.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Right right.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
He knows that at its core.
But I do think that's where theAI stuff is getting interesting
is.
I think that maybe we don'tnecessarily have to know every
command.
Like you talked to, andy, aboutdropping out of Python, I
wouldn't drop into a courseright now on Python.
I would start writing code.
As much as we hate this wordvibe coding it's worth doing a

(27:13):
little bit with the AI so thatyou can start saying oh, you
made this little change here,andy.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, the problem with that for me is, I want to
understand the fundamentals so Iknow what the hell I'm doing.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
Okay, this is great.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
And if then I really want to know.
There seems to be like 10 to 12fundamental concepts that would
really be helpful if Iunderstood them.
And when I try to learn them Istart to get lost in the layers
of abstraction and I don't knowwhere.
I get lost and I'd have to walkyou through it in real time and
then you could see it happen tome.
But okay, get lost, and I'dhave to walk you through it in
real time too, and then youcould see it happen to me.

(27:46):
But okay, I know a variable, Iget that we're assigning a value
to something in memory, great.
And then we're going to do likea logic thing, like and if then
okay, I get that.
But there's some point where weget like four or five layers in
that I'm like wait, what, whathappened?
And we called a function andthen some library like something
do that.
But I really really sincerelywant to learn just the
fundamentals of how it works,just so that I can understand

(28:08):
what the hell is happening.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Am I doing myself a disservice?
Did you take Spanish in highschool?
Do you speak Spanish?

Speaker 1 (28:16):
I will answer in Spanish, no.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Right.
The reason I bring that up isbecause when you take a language
in high school or in college orwhatever, they start you with
the fundamentals.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's where they start you.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
They start you with how to say all the past tenses
and all that.
That's just not how you learn areal spoken language, and I
feel like the exact same thingis true when it comes.
At least for me, that's been myexperience.
When I want to learn a language,I go try it, because I'm going
to learn how variables work whenI figure out that I've written

(28:52):
the same code 10 times and oh,that's the only thing that
changed.
Okay, great, Now I understand avariable.
I'm going to learn if-thenstatements by having whether AI
fits it out or I copy somebodyelse's code and I've looked at
it a bunch of times.
So I think learning to read itand understand what it does,
rather than saying I'm going toknow the fundamentals first,
Cause I don't, unless we startedin a formalized classroom.

(29:14):
I don't know, Erica, you tookclasses in coding.
Do you feel like that's whereyou learned the most, or did you
learn it by doing, or I don'tknow.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
I'm gonna let you answer that again.
So many things to say.
I did not learn anything thatwas real world and practical in
school, so I learned all thetheory.
That's a great foundation, butdoesn't translate to actually
building crap, right.
So to your point there.
You, you truly learn the skillby building and by practicing
the skill.
And then you both kind of hadopposite opinions on the whole
learning with AI thing or codingwith AI, and that was a great

(29:46):
point for me to shamelessly plugsomething I'm working on, which
is I'm in the middle ofcreating a free, completely free
course where it's gearedtowards network engineers and it
teaches them how to code usingAI.
But there are levels, right?
Level one is these are theconcepts you have to know before
you start using the AI.
It's Andy's point aboutfoundational knowledge.

(30:07):
It's not a bunch of computerscience theory bullshit that
you're not going to need to knowlater.
It's just these are theimportant concepts.
Boom, boom, boom.
Then I teach you how to use theAI chat right, because AI chat
is just basically easier.
Google, these are the conceptsyou can learn with this guide,
et cetera.
And then it moves on to levelthree, which is what Jeff's
talking about, which is I'm notgoing to call it vibe coding,

(30:29):
but it's using the codegeneration portion of it.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Where do I and everyone else sign up for this,
because I really need somethinglike that.
I think you addressed the firstthing you said, which was that
we have an education problem,maybe with development, and
that's been my experience.
I still am not proficient inPython and gosh darn.
I've been trying for a reallylong time and maybe that's a
tool I haven't used I roll myeyes because I'm just so worn

(30:53):
out on the whole AI thing butit's a great tool when used
right?
So how do I sign up for whatyou just talked about?

Speaker 3 (30:59):
Subscribe to my YouTube.
Erica underscored the death.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
Come on, man Say what , are you already subscribed,
are you?
Oh wow, I'm flattered.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
I only have like 18 subscribers right now, so you're
an elite class.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
right now I'm subscribed to your Tiki Talk.
I don't know if I'm subscribedto your YouTube.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Don't worry, I'll be shamelessly promoting it very
frequently soon, so you'll get areminder if you're not already
subscribed.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Are you going to do a series?
Okay, but it'll be like aseries of videos or Yep, so it's
a course it's going to have aguide and an assessment guide
too, right?

Speaker 3 (31:28):
So if you don't have somebody at your workplace,
maybe you just find a developerbuddy, or maybe ask me whatever,
and they assess whether or notyou gain the competencies at
each part.
Each video is less than 20minutes.
I try to make them way shorterthan that if I can.
Then you hands-on practice itand then you get assessed and
not just, oh, what was this?
But hey, let me ask you a deepthinking question about whether

(31:49):
or not you've got the concept.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Damn.
What's this going to cost me?

Speaker 3 (31:53):
It's free, free 99.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Free 99.
I really like this approach.
I feel different than otherthings I've tried.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
It's an experiment, but I'm also open to feedback
too.
So it's version one, and ify'all are like, hey, this part
of it is where it kind of poopedout, then we'll fix it.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
That sounds awesome.
I'm just trying to catch up.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
I finally got a dev that's listening.
Andy, Do you hear that?

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Oh, is there one in there?
I feel like we've been talkinga lot about automation and
networking and I really thinkthat it's.
There is a maybe it's becauseof what I'm doing for work right
now, but there seems to be ashift happening Again.
If you look at the educationstuff, if you look at things

(32:33):
like autocom, if you look atdata, like there's a shift
happening in networking andthere's people who are still dug
in.
I know one of my buddy who toldme he's like dude, I'm in the
public sector, I'm not learningthis shit, I'll be out of here
before they make us do it, like,and I'm like, hey, okay, like
that's a choice, right.
But then there's there's peoplelike me who are like really

(32:53):
thirsty for this knowledge, likeI don't want to.
I don't want to age out or skillout or become irrelevant, like
I I would like to be able to.
The example I always use in aplace that I worked, we had to
update the SNMP community stringof like hundreds of devices and
the only way I knew how to doit was going in one at a time
with my notepad plus.
Plus, it was going to takeforever.
Right, it would have beenimpossible to do all those.
And we had a Python guy on ourteam and he spent a couple of

(33:16):
days showing me and I think itwas done in like two, maybe
three nights, just because wewere trying to be careful.
But then what do you think me?
months to log into 600 devicesand make a change and a pre and
post check and like and a changefor each one like change would
have been a nightmare.
I see the value.
It's just I don't feel like Ican do that and I'd like to be
able to like.
He did it, he showed me.
But every class I take I justhit that, I hit a layer of

(33:39):
abstraction where my brain justexplodes and then I kind of like
run away and get scared.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
Back to your point a little bit too about the
motivation of it.
The conversations I've hadwhere people are managing 600
switches or other ungodlynumbers of devices, they're
usually also people who aredoing the jobs of three people.
Most network engineers I knoware very overworked.
I think that's another greatuse case again for automation.
It's really just maybe justtake it down to like two
people's jobs.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
It's really just maybe just take it down to like
two people's jobs.
We talked about this recentlythat I really think time is the
greatest lever we can pull inthis conversation that we're
trying to have across theindustry.
Like do you want to workendless maintenance windows
doing mundane crap?
I don't.
We had a guy on years agoDaniel, he's an Australian, he's
a big.
You might know him, he's a bigautomation guy, but that's what

(34:22):
he told me.
He's like.
I and Jeff said this a hundredtimes I'm doing this to save
time in my life.
I want to go ride my bike andbe with my family and play my
guitar.
I don't want to be workingaround the clock because there's
too much work.
If I can do the work of threepeople and with with some
tooling, that gives me more time, andy, I'm like all right, this

(34:44):
is I like time, especially theolder.
I get like to have as much as Ican and to spend it doing
mundane, stupid stuff the slowway because it's the only way I
know just doesn't make sense.
I don't know if that's we'renot the first people to say that
, but I don't know how you cantalk to someone and say well, do
you want to spend less timedoing your job and getting paid
the same, like you could do that.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
But to your point too .
It doesn't matter how badly youwant that If it's not easy to
learn.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
It's not easy to learn.
It hasn't been for me at least.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
Well, y'all will have to give me feedback because
genuinely, this is this is partof my mission, so I can't
promise I'm going to get itright the first time, just a
dumb old dev over here ithappens.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
And I'm not blasting them because everybody loves
them, including me.
But there's the Kirk ByersPython.
He does it free every year.
It's an amazing course and I'vesigned up for it three or four
times and every time I sign upfor it and start it, I forget
that in the first class, if youdon't have any experience, you
have to start with this 300-pagebook before, and then I'm like,
oh hell.
And then that's another thingthat I give up on Now.

(35:39):
If I would have just got thedamn book five years ago, the
first time I tried and workedthrough that and it's a great
course and it's got labs andvideos and like I should have
just done that.
15 bucks, so stupid.
But any friction that getsthere.
I just kind of like, oh, Ireally want to take Kirk's
course, but I got to do thisprereq and I guess it's.
It's just such an inside jobfor me.
It's just all this kind ofemotional and if I'm going to

(36:07):
make the decision to learn thisstuff, I'm just going to stop
bitching about it.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Well, here's another mistake with the courses that I
think is making everybody'slives hard is that truly
learning development in any formis not just oh, I'm going to
pick a language and startlearning it.
You have to learn to think likea developer, right?
So I have like a goldfishmemory, so I'm not gonna
remember like the parts of yourbrain, right, but basically,
when you code, you're not usinglike the language parts of your
brain, you're not using the mathparts of your brain.

(36:32):
You're relying on multipleparts of your brain that you do
not rely on when, when doing anyother task, right, literally
exercising your brain in a wayit's not used to being exercised
, and asking you to solveproblems in a way that you're
not used to solving them.
But big part of my foundationisn't teaching you syntax, blah,
blah, blah, bullcrap.
It's teaching you how to thinkright, and that's.
Once you have that, thefrustration factor goes down a

(36:53):
lot, because you can Google alot of coding, right, you can
Google oh, how do I do this inPython?
Again, right, but Google's notgoing to tell you how to think
like a developer.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
This is the first time again that I'm like I wish
I talked to you years ago.
This is the first time I'mhearing that, that it's even a
different mindset.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Well, it would involve a developer or somebody
who knows how to develop havingthe humble pie to know that
anybody can learn to code if youteach it in a way that makes
sense.
We just kind of like throw crapout there and know, like, if
you take it like fish to water,then you are graced by God, Like
we're going to knight you rightand if and if not, then just
you're banished to apparentlythe network engineering.
I don't know, but you'remanaged somewhere.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Well, that's what I meant about an inside job.
Like we're all shaped by ourexperiences and because my first
semester in computer science Iwas put in C++ and calculus and
just couldn't hack either.
At a very young age there wasthis imprint made in me that
like maybe I'm not smart enoughto do this.
A million years later, here Iam and I'm trying to learn these
things, and as soon as they'rehard.

(37:51):
So I really love kind of howyou're framing it and even just
thinking like a developer.
I think you might have unlockedsomething I have hope, like I'm
actually I'm genuinely excited,not just because you're on the
show, but I have been searching.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Don't fake it for me again.
You have to be honest with me,don't fake it and anything for
network engineering.
to be totally honest, right,because hopefully this is
changing.
But, like being a woman andbeing from the country, like I
didn't learn to work with anylike tools or anything physical,
right.
So I started as an intern innetwork engineering at Cisco and
we started out in the lab wherewe recruited customer
environments right.

(38:26):
So my job was literally to like, rack and stack cable up
devices.
I was highly uncomfortabledoing that the thought of just
literally figuring out how tounscrew a router from the rack.
I know that sounds so dumb, butthere's this mental block about
.
I've never used a tool, I'm notcapable of doing this, and then
you just shut down, right.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Were you able to navigate that and just work
through it?
I guess you had to.
You didn't have a choice.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
I'll be honest, I think it's a.
It's something that still getsme every once in a while okay um
, but back then.
No, no, I didn't so me me andthe only other girl intern we
made.
We had an unspoken oath.
We have to figure this shit out.
We can't tell you, but we don'tknow how to do use a drill, and
we spent an entire day on it.
So no, we didn't, we weren'twise.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Isn't it interesting how, when you have to do
something, like when there isn'ta plan B, like I was, I was a
cable guy for years and my bodywas getting beat up and I wasn't
making enough and there was noway out of it I had to get that
CCNA.
I had, like, I had no plan B,that was it.
I have to get this because thisis what I need for the job.
That it's just interesting.
And I haven't had to learn tocode, like it's just right.

(39:35):
If I had to, it was like well,bro, you're not going to be able
to eat in six months.
Go learn Python.
I'd be pretty good at Python,right.
Like, because, to your point,like, I didn't use tools and I
got to screw stuff and it'sfreaking me out and my brain
just shuts down.
And then I, I listened to mycore but I can't do this, right.
Well, it's bullshit.
You got to fight through thatshit.
And if you have to fightthrough that shit, you have to
fight through that shit.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, we're all kind of just the culmination of our
experiences and it's somewhatrandom and it's not as much
choice as I think we like topretend it is.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Not as if we don't have control of our fate, but
just opportunities.
Come your way, Blah blah.
Think you have to threaten usin your class.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Learn this or else no , I'm going to keep it fun.
I can't do that to you guys.
So before we start wrapping itup here, there was a comment
that I just wanted to find thatI loved.
Hold on.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
He said oh, I'm scared You're laughing, it was,
it was it was really good System.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Mtu once said in quotes not an asshole.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
Putting that on my resume, something you said
earlier which is hilarious it'strue, if I was a hiring manager,
that'd be a number one criteria.
How tired I get of working withassholes.
I'm just in every form ofengineering.
I hope the bar gets raised.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
I don't know if you can comment on the DevNet, sir,
but we do have a question fromRoboDaddy.
He got a CCNA in 2017.
He's thinking about going afterDevNet.
My first question is why?
Why are you going after DevNet?
I thought of going for DevNetAssociate just because, again,
it would force me.
Okay, I paid the money and I'mtaking the stuff and I'm going
to publicly say it, so I'maccountable.
That's kind of my little hack.

(40:58):
Let me embarrass myselfpublicly until I pass this thing
.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
What do you think about the After we just beat up
on?
There isn't good dev stuff outthere.
What do you think in general?
If you can comment, maybe youcan't, I don't know, so wait,
what was the core of thequestion?
I guess the DevNet.
Well, what do you think of the?

Speaker 3 (41:16):
DevNet cert.
Like, is it a good?
It's hard to answer thatwithout knowing, like, where
this person is at.
So to me, the DevNet cert ispartially bridging that gap
between the developer andnetwork engineering worlds,
right?
I personally don't feel theplace to go to learn how to code
and don't feel the place to goto learn how to code, and it's
not the endpoint for yourautomation journey.
So, for instance, as adeveloper, I earned my DevNet
Associate.
There was it was pretty basicPython that I had to review.

(41:41):
There was nothing really toreview, but it was more what
kind of tools will you use inorder to automate your network?
Or what?
How do you use Cisco APIs whendoing automation?
Or maybe some common librariesthat you're going to use in
Python for doing automation?
So if this person does not knowhow to code, it's not going to
teach them that and I wouldpersonally start with some form
of that first, have at least alittle bit of comfortability
coding or with Python, and thenI would take the DevNet

(42:02):
associate.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
And maybe before that you let Erica teach you how to
get in the mindset Right Thinklike a winner.
This is news to me.
I didn't know there was amindset, jeff, this is where
I've been screwing up.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
I thought I could just learn Python.
If you can dodge a ball, Ithink part of it is.
I have a different theory onthe automation.
My theory has always been if Ihave a three-hour project and I
can just go and I can knock outthe whole thing in three hours,
I would rather learn how toautomate it in five seconds, but
take three hours to learn that.
So it may have taken me thesame three hours, but I didn't

(42:41):
do the same task over and overfor three hours.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
I learned something new in three hours and then did
the over and over task in five,ten seconds.
I've watched Jeff do this and Ithink the difference between
you and I, jeff, is you can sitthere for three hours and
actually do that, like I've seenyou do it.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Once I get, once I'm focused on that I will tell you
when I'm coding and playingaround with and again, I'm not
coding from scratch, I'mstealing other people's code and
understanding how to rate itand fix it.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
As you do, yeah, as you do yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
But Jeff makes it easy, oh yeah Well, he just
seems to Compared to me.
I'm comparing myself to Jeff.
Jeff, I hear you and I'm notdisagreeing with you at all.
I think for me you're somewhereTo your point, sure, spend
three hours figuring out how toautomate it.
I can't get through the first10 pages of a Python book
without spinning into the corner.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's what I'm saying.
I spinning.
I've never.
I've never picked up a pythonbook.
That's what I'm saying.
I've never.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
But you're figuring it out without that, and you
were doing it even without aiwhen we used to work like
together back in the day.
So I've always been amazed atyou who just kind of figures it
out.
Right, like you can just figureit out where me.
I'm like can somebody pleaseteach me the skill set I need to
do this?
Like if you told me to just gofigure out how to manage a
production network.
No, I needed curriculum.
But you're one of those guysthat's just like oh, I just I

(43:52):
figured it out, I'm basic and Imade a call.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
If Erica looked at my code versus someone who had
taken the fundamentals, she'd belike what in the hell is this
guy doing?
Because I would have gone aroundabout way to get there, but
I'll still get to that end.
So mine may run versus a fivesecond script, but I'll still
get there.
But I think we're some of thefundamentals that you were
talking about, erica, and Ithink this is kind of what
you're leading to your teachingor hoping to teach.

(44:15):
Is that thinking like a, like adev person?
For example, my versioningprocess consists of dave, uh,
every so often and oh, credforgot to save and oh no, I have
to roll back six different oldz's because I screwed up
somewhere and I can't get out ofthis hole.
And I know that there's versioncontrol and stuff like that.

(44:36):
I think you learned that.
I never learned that, so all mystuff's messy but it gets done.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
And that can get complicated to version control
Like it's its own beast.
Yes, that will be in my course,but to give you credit, I think
that what's most important isdoing it in a way that is fun
for you.
So if you have the most, likemy husband's, the same way like
when we were we met in networksupport actually, but when he
was in network support he didn'teven do training.
He's just like no, just justlet me shadow dive into cases,
I'll learn it whatever.

(45:02):
And I was the opposite.
I was hyperventilating like Iwas reading a book and taking
notes and like I want to beprepared.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
You're so disappointed, andy was like he
couldn't sit in code for threehours.
I couldn't sit and look at abook for three hours.
I'd lose my mind.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
But it's just knowing yourself right.
You dive in and then, onceyou've reached you've exhausted
the point that you can infiguring stuff out yourself,
maybe you go back to the book,at least a little bit.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
So I'm really looking forward to your class.
I'm just, I wrote down a coupleof things that I'm very
interested in, but I haven'tbeen able to cross that chasm by
myself, like when I had a jobwhere my buddy was writing a
Terraform provider and it's thefirst time I saw Terraform and
infrastructure as code.
And again when smart people whoknow how to teach he walked me

(45:46):
through it and I'm like I thinkthis doesn't look that bad, like
I think I could.
Now someone brilliant showingme how they did it is a way
different experience than mesitting at a terminal trying to
figure that out.
So I'm trying to like I'mfascinated, I'm curious, I want
to learn infrastructure as code.
I think Terraform is reallycool.
Apis are all the rage, likeGitHub and CSCD pipeline all

(46:09):
amazing.
But as a network person whostruggles with that whole world,
I'm genuinely excited to seewhat you have coming out,
because I haven't found maybeit's that certification the
person talked about earlier, Idon't know, I didn't take it,
but if someone could just A getme in the mindset which you
referred to and then B juststart walking me through, like
here's the stuff you have toknow as a person who wants to
learn all of it and beproficient.

(46:29):
I don't want to writeapplications, but I'd like to be
able to look at a Python scriptand know what the hell's
happening.
Or maybe automate some stuffaround the house.
Or, like Jeff talked we'vetalked before about like stuff I
could automate.
Like every time I come home Ihave to push 15 different
buttons on my phone to like turnthe alarm off, open the garage
door, like do the heater thing,and he's like well, I wouldn't
even know where to begin.
So I'm really excited to seewhat you have coming out,

(46:51):
because I want to.
I just don't know how to getthere and it sounds like you
could be the bridge to to get mewhere I'm trying to get to,
because I just haven't.
You have to change your handle.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Right, erica the Messiah, that should go over.
Well, put a little halo abovemy head.
I'm sorry Not to be likesacrilegious.
Overwell, put a little haloover my head.
I'm sorry Not to be likesacrilegious, but I don't.
I lost my thought.
I'm not a night person.
I just I'm here for like thepositive vibes, but like
internally me is like asleep.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, listen, this has been fantastic.
I've really enjoyed it.
Jeff, did you have anythingbefore we wrap it up?
I've learned a lot and I reallyappreciate your perspective,
erica.
I've never actually had thisconversation with the developer
and I've wanted to for a verylong time.
I wanted to yell at thembecause of it's the network and
it's not in blah, blah, blah,but you've really given me a lot
of insight and context.

(47:41):
I didn't have the egos thatthey have and the way they
groomed and they come up andthey are treated well because
they're rev gen and like there'sjust a lot of cultural elements
happening and now the networkengineers like us have to learn
it and then the material isn'tgood.
But you've developed otherstuff, like I've really enjoyed
this conversation and you'veopened my eyes to some things I
didn't know and then told mesome resources that are coming
which I'm really excited about.
So this has been helpful for meand that's the whole deal.

(48:02):
Here is like we can have goodconversations and help us than I
did an hour ago about melearning automation.
Well, I do, and every time Italk to Jeff, there's certain
people in the community that,like when you talk to them and
they're proficient in automation, but they're not those
egotistical assholes, it kind ofthey're pulling.

(48:23):
I feel like you guys are allpulling me along.
John Capobianco God bless himhas tried to, but he's just so
far down the automation promisedland that he lost me Like I
should have oh, I didn't AI.
Like he right Automation andnow AI.
He's just taken over the world.
He's going to be running thematrix soon, but this has just
been really helpful for me.
Jeff, you got anything as wewrap.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
My final thoughts are actually a last week thing is
when we were actually supposedto meet with Erica.
It didn't.
I was like I need to go look ather LinkedIn page.
I got to go read up on who thisperson is that's going to be on
the show and I well, first offon her LinkedIn page there was
some kind of like a hangman codething that me and four

(49:02):
different AIs were trying todecode and we never got to.
But the real rabbit hole Iended up going down was just
going through some of hercontent.
She does a great video on howthe internet works, something
that I could send to my motherand be like Mom, this is how the
internet works.
I ended up just kind of goingdown a rabbit hole, erica, and
watching a bunch of your stuff,and I can say I've become a

(49:25):
really big fan.
Thank you.
Anyone watching this just knowErica is able to take some
complex topics, put them intoreally simple, easy to
understand, and what I like isbite-sized chunks too.
Like none of the stuff you'redoing is so long form that
people feel like they have toreally commit to it, so you can
catch it kind of as a drive-by.
So I just want to kind of givethat pitch and say that I didn't

(49:46):
intend to go as far down theErica rabbit hole as I did, but
it's been really good it's likecrack.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
May I also add one concluding thought?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Add to it.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Because I feel like I took us down many rabbit holes
and I wanted to just say onefinal thought on bridging the
chasm however you say that wordbetween software and network.
So I do think that DevOps is agreat middle point, right.
A lot of software engineers Italk to are really interested in
DevOps and it kind of turnsthem on to the importance of the
network and why they mightlearn networking concepts, and

(50:17):
likewise, a lot of networkengineers are asked at various
points to learn that.
So I think that's a greatcommonality.
Also, just this applies to likeall silos, right, but like just
being curious and empathetic,like as technologists if we're
real technologists, if we'rereal technologists, we should be
being exploratory and curiousabout other people's fields,
right, when anybody wants to hityou with their ego, be like,
well, a real developer wouldhave learned some fucking

(50:37):
network engineering.
Like, just just just lay it onthem.
A real technologist would havedone this.
Right, because that's the truth.
And then, and then beempathetic, which was not
empathetic just then.
But you get what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
That's what I, as I do.
Yeah, so we're at the end.
And when you say devops, likethat could be a whole separate
conversation because like I'veheard the term, I know it's
developer and operations andkind of like a blend.
But like, how does one devop?
Like, is that a cultural thing?
Is that?

Speaker 3 (51:05):
a dance.
Oh man, maybe anotherconversation you're tired.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
I don't want to keep you.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
I I'll be fine, I'm just going to go to sleep.
It's not like I've got someexciting plans, but so it's
somewhere between people justthrowing crap together, trying
to automate deployments andactually following best
practices Again.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
I'm not a.

Speaker 3 (51:23):
DevOps expert right.
I just was forced to somehowthrow together a CICD pipeline
for that startup I worked for,icd pipeline for that startup I
worked for.
But it's essentially automatingrelease cycles, right.
You have like a stagedenvironment, you have a
production environment and itseems to be both network
engineers and software engineerswho end up in that role.
It does involve usually someinfrastructure as code, but it's

(51:43):
also a lot easier lift thanactually learning development.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
I like it.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
It's not my cup of tea.
I don't find it veryinteresting, but Okay awesome.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Erica.
You are fantastic.
I love everything you do.
Your content's amazing.
Where can people find you ifthey're living under a rock and
don't know where to find you?

Speaker 3 (51:57):
YouTube, linkedin, tiktok, instagram and sort of X.
Erica underscore the death andI really appreciate you guys
having me on.
This is like the Hollywood ofnetwork engineering being on the
art of network engineering.
I took offense to you thinkingI did not know this podcast.
I had watched episodes.
Also, I studied for thispodcast.
I wasn't going to go live, butthank you guys so much for
having me on and humoring me,thanks.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
You did fantastic.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Jeff.
Thank you.
Where can people find you,buddy?

Speaker 2 (52:24):
I mean, I'm just so boring.
Find me on LinkedIn or go tothe Discord for Jeff, I need to
start posting online but I justdon't.
I got two kids and a job that Ireally like doing.
Jeff's tired yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Jeff, be tired.
Well, guys, thanks so much forcoming on.
For all things Art of NetworkEngineering you could go to.
Where am I going to send youOur link tree Link, tree,
forward slash.
Art of NetEng has all thethings Most notably our Discord
server called.
It's all about the journey thatcame out of a study group that
aj had started because we wereall failing the ccmp and we

(52:59):
needed some help and and acommunity.
He he said it best.
He's like I don't know why Ithought, joining up with a bunch
of other people who failed theexam, somehow we would come
together and and it's grown intoa beautiful community.
There's like 3,500 people inthere.
There's rooms for every kind oftech stack that you would ever
imagine, and people are in therestudying and study groups.
So if you don't have acommunity, I highly suggest

(53:20):
checking it out or finding acommunity.
You don't have to do this alone.
I tried to do it alone.
It stunk and now that I havepeople it's so much better.
Thanks so much for joining usfor another episode of the Art
of Network Engineering and we'llcatch you next time.
The A1 merch store and ourvirtual community on Discord
called.
It's All About the Journey.
You can see our pretty faces onour YouTube channel named the

(53:57):
Art of Network Engineering.
That's youtubecom forward slashArt of NetEng.
Thanks for listening.