The Unicorn Network Engineer

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The networking industry stands at a crossroads where traditional command-line mastery meets modern automation requirements. Few professionals embody this intersection better than Muna Chimso, a Network Automation Engineer at Google who joins us to share his remarkable journey and insights.

Muna's story begins in Nigeria, where fixing his mother's phone sparked an early interest in technology. After moving to the United States in 2018 to study Computer Networking and IT, he made a critical observation that would shape his career path: while he loved networking fundamentals, the job market increasingly demanded coding skills even for networking positions. Rather than choosing between his passion for networking and the industry's direction toward software, Muna embraced both, building a rare and valuable skill set that combines deep networking knowledge with programming expertise.

What makes Muna's perspective particularly valuable is his unique vantage point as a young professional who entered the field with fresh eyes. He shares how Google's Network Residency Program brings new graduates into the networking world, addressing the challenge of attracting young talent to a field often overshadowed by pure software engineering roles. We explore the evolving relationship between network engineers and developers, with fascinating insights into how companies are bridging this gap, from pairing traditional engineers with developers to incentivizing networking professionals to learn coding through bonuses and recognition programs.

The conversation takes a thought-provoking turn when Muna suggests that the future of network engineering isn't about memorizing commands but understanding complex systems at scale. "You won't need to type a BGP command anymore," he notes, highlighting how the value of network professionals is shifting from configuration expertise to systems thinking and problem-solving abilities. While automation and AI handle increasingly complex tasks, the human element remains irreplaceable for understanding business problems and designing appropriate solutions.

Whether you're a seasoned network veteran considering how to evolve your skills, a student wondering which path to pursue, or a technology leader building teams for the future, this episode offers invaluable insights into the convergence of networking and software development. Subscribe now and join our community at linktree.com/artofneteng to continue the conversation!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is the Art of Network Engineering, where
technology meets the human sideof IT.
Whether you're scaling networks, solving problems or shaping
your career, we've got theinsights, stories and tips to
keep you ahead in theever-evolving world of
networking.
Welcome to the Art of NetworkEngineering podcast.
My name is Andy Lapteff and inthis episode I am joined by the
man, the myth, the legend, oneof my favorite people that I got

(00:23):
to meet in person not too longago at a USNUA event, and I
can't wait to see him again.
It's not going to come soonenough.
William Collins what's up,william?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
How's it going?
Yeah, looking forward tohanging out in person again.
Denver right, You're going tobe in Denver.
I'm going to be in Denver.
Hopefully you're going torecord a podcast poolside.
Spoiler alert, maybe I'm I'mtrying to figure out the
craziest thing.
My in-laws happen to live lessan hour or less away from where

(00:54):
andy lives, so I go and spendpart of the summer there.
So, hey, why not?

Speaker 1 (00:58):
if I'm there, he's there, he lives there, you know
well he's been summering like anhour from my house for years
and never once thought hey, andy, what's up?
Man, maybe I should stop by andhang out.
So I don't know what took solong, but I'm glad that our
relationship has progressed tothe point where you're willing
to come visit me.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's like the vision is aligned with reality.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Let's go uh and uh, we have a very special guest on
this episode.
So, um, this gentleman's nameis Muna Muna.
Well, I'm going to let Munatell you who he is.
So, muna, who are you?
What do you do, where do youwork?
And tell us a little bit aboutyourself.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Okay, so my name is Muna.
I'm originally from Nigeria.
The full name of the name isMuna Chimso.
It's a very long name.
Yeah, muna Ch chimso um.
It means god and I together.
Um.
So, yeah, so I came from like.
I came to united states 2018school.
Of course, you're working, umas a network automation engineer

(01:56):
at google.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, and I'm sorry, where.
What's the name?
That's google place.
I never heard of that company,I just wanted oh, oh yeah, so
it's a very small company isthat a startup?

Speaker 3 (02:06):
it must be a startup a very small startup in sf.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, just just look at their stock.
If they ever go public, thatmight, they might turn into
nothing someday yeah, I thinkyou should, I think you should
so I'm obviously being silly,right I so?
So I'm gonna reach out and andsaid hey man, I've been
listening to the show, I'd loveto come.
I'm a network automationengineer at Google and I fell
out of my seat.
I'm like whoa, this is amazing,right To speak to.

(02:30):
Yeah, right To get to speak tosomeone who works at a fan
company, right.
The problems and the scale thatGoogle operates on, I'm just
fascinated with.
I think it's amazing.
We have another mutual friend,william, and I, who works at
Google and I just hear thethings that people at Google are
working on and like, wow,that's just really amazing Again

(02:51):
, the scale like working onglobal problems, right, solving
huge problems.
And listen, I'm not trying tosay that I'm the old guy on this
call right now, but I see thatyou graduated.
I know that I don't look itright.
I mean, wow, andy, I thoughtyou just got out of university
as well, but I'm looking atdon't laugh too hard, I'm

(03:12):
looking at your LinkedIn and itlooks like you graduated college
in 2022.
Is that somewhere around,correct?
Okay, so three years ago, lessthan so you're three years out
of school, three years out ofuniversity and working at Google
.
I'm trying to think of what Iwas doing three years out of
school.
I think I don't.
I was not doing great in mycareer.
So you da man, good job.

(03:34):
I grad, you know I come out ofschool and started Google.
So you know we talked earlierabout this before we started
recording.
I don't want to, I don't want tospend a ton of time on your
story, even though it's about 15minutes old, because you're
freshly out of school working atGoogle.
But how, how does one like, didyou start at Google?
I mean, it's so.
Your resume is amazing, like Isee the internships you did, and

(03:56):
so I guess, for someonelistening, I was a person who
was a cable guy for an ISP andwanted to be a network engineer.
I was in my 30s.
I'm starting kind of my careerover mid-career kind of like
transition.
I want to get into tech.
Blah, blah, blah.
You have a very different story.
It seems you look very focused,at least on paper.
So did you always know youwanted to get into tech?
Did you know that you wouldgraduate college and work at one

(04:18):
of the biggest companies in theworld?
What's?
your deal, man how did you do itLike what's your deal, man?
How did you do it?
Thanks?

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Thank you so much.
So I would say it's different.
It's a bit different mainlybecause, like you mentioned, a
lot of folks in the networkengineering space they've been
here like for a while start fromlike tech, then move up.
But I think my case was likewhen I wanted to.
I know I shouldn't go too farbut, like you mentioned, it's

(04:45):
not too far back.
So I think networking for mestarted when I was trying to get
into college and I knew I wasgoing to be in tech.
I didn't just know where and Ididn't.
I tried your regular web devand I didn't like it.
So I knew, okay, it wasn'tcomputer science.
So I cause I didn't really likethe idea of just sitting down
building websites and that was,that was the idea of computer

(05:06):
science I had.
So then, doing some research, Idiscovered networking, which
sounded very interesting, likeoh, okay, so there's a field
that actually so the folks thatactually build the internet I
can actually study that.
That was like the view I had.
I was like, okay, let's go withthat.
Then, coming into college taking, I saw that okay, this is a
field where not a lot of myfriends are doing.

(05:27):
I was like we're very few in mycollege so I studied computer
networking and IT.
So now a lot of people when Itell them that was my undergrad
I was like that is very focusedBecause most times undergrad is
like an IT degree.
Then later on you come innetworking.
But this program was like avery focused program at Alcon

(05:48):
State it's in Mississippi.
So computer networking and ITand from day one is like the
basis of networking, still withIT, but it's like an emphasis on
networking.
So I knew that and I enjoyednetworking, like from reading it
I just liked it.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So one second.
I'm sorry to interrupt you, butI have to.
So I thought you were acomputer science major, which I
guess I mean computer networking.
But you're not comp sci.
Yeah, I'm not comp sci.
That's interesting to me Also.
A lot of conversations I'vebeen having the past few years
I've been getting feedback thatless and less colleges are
teaching networking, I think inthe comp sci context, that less
and less colleges are teachingnetworking, I think in the comp

(06:24):
sci context.
So I'm happy to hear that thereare still computer networking
Programs, concentrations outthere and programs.
What I'm really interested inyou said you always knew you
wanted to work in tech.
Where did that come from?
How did you know that?
Do you have peers or a parentor someone in tech?
And then how did you getinterested in networking?
Because usually when I speak tosomeone and how did you get
interested in networking?

(06:44):
Because usually when I speak tosomeone, they have this moment
where they kind of started tolearn how networking works and
kind of got the bug.
They fell in love like, oh myGod, I can't believe this is how
it happened.
So how did you know you wantedto work in tech?

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, I think that first question is just growing
up.
I saw myself because, living inNigeria, there's not a lot of
tech advancement like in the US.
So the little things of, okay,using my mom's phone and I do
something for her, I solve anissue for her, and she's like,
oh my God, you're so good.
So I think it was my prick.
I think, looking at it back, itwas just my parents that
actually just emphasize that oh,I'm actually handy with phones

(07:18):
or computers.
I think we're more in thefamily Exactly so.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
You were fixing iPhones and people thought you
were technically skillful.
So I was the only.
You don't even know what a VCRis, probably, but I was the only
person in our family that couldprogram a VCR.
These are things we used to useto record television, and they
had old magnetic tapes thatyou'd have to put in and you'd
have to go into the menu and seta day, a channel and a time

(07:46):
that you wanted to record fromuntil you didn't just push in
GUI somewhere.
So, yeah, this I'm William.
Do you see what's happening?
I'm teaching him you're on mute, william.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I'm teaching him what a VCR is in real time I was
going to say like doing thatprogramming the VCR is like more
is like more painful than likefixing python dependency like
just heck sprawl but my familythought I was brilliant.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
They're like oh, he can talk to the machine, so
that's all, it's all context.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
But I but I love how you were fixing iphones, I was
fixing ehs, I was fixingmachines you can't even buy
anymore well, with all the timethat you put in vcrs and all
that old stuff, you probablycould have learned spanish and
three other languages and befluent in like four programming
languages.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
So if I only had any direction or any mentorship,
which is kind of what I wasdigging at muna and I'm so.
You grew up in nigeria.
You said, yes, how old were youwhen, when you moved to the
states?

Speaker 3 (08:39):
so 2018, that was 17.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Okay, wow, yeah a huge culture shock.
I mean what?
What a different place.
You were right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
It was totally different.
Yeah, it was like.
Yeah, it took me a while torealize, okay, stuff, I've done
this way, I can't even start,that it won't finish, but it was
totally different.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
What drove the move?
Was it to come for opportunityor yeah it?

Speaker 3 (09:02):
was just for school, okay.
Was it to come for opportunity?
Yeah, it was just for school,okay, I suppose.
Since my mom believed that wasvery tech savvy, she felt like
my older siblings.
They went the medical route.
So they're already gooduniversities in Nigeria for
medicine, biology.
But my mom knew that, okay, itwas more computer science, tech,
it, and they felt like, oh,I'll get better opportunities

(09:24):
here for that field.
So we applied and so it'sactually a thing of, oh, if you
get a scholarship, because theschools here are very expensive.
So it was a question of, if youget a scholarship, good, if you
don't, you just go to school inNigeria.
So I applied to both.
Actually, I applied to theschool in Nigeria and school in
the US.
I actually started the schoolin Nigeria for about a month in.

(09:46):
Then the offer letter with ascholarship came from US.
I was like, yes, so, yeah.
So that was like all thathappened there and I came to the
US, did you?

Speaker 1 (09:56):
come here yourself.
Did your mom come with you?

Speaker 3 (09:59):
No, I came myself, my friend and I, we were two, so
we applied together, we both gotin to the same school, so we
came together alone.
And it's very funny because Iwas 17 then and that time he was
16 and you need, if you're 16and under, you need a guardian.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
So I was his technical I love that you can
rub that in all day long Seniorrude.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
You're still telling us and the courage it takes to
do what you did.
I just don't want to pass bytoo quickly because I've spent a
little bit of time here andthere in other countries
visiting where I didn't speakthe language there and it was so
intimidating and so hard to doanything.
I was deep in France and I wastrying to buy a bottle of water
and they didn't speak englishand I didn't speak french and I

(10:48):
had a hell of a time.
I might have spent 100 usdollars on this little bottle of
water because I didn'tunderstand the currency, I
didn't understand the price.
I put money.
Now they started to back uplike she wasn't yelling at me so
I thought we were my dude.
I mean, I, I know you spoke thelanguage, but just to come to a
different culture, a differentplace, a different, it's just
such a.
To me it's such a courageousact, because I know the other
side of that and it's scary,it's scary.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, at least in France you'rearound people that have great
attitudes and never get seedy oranything.
You know right, that's only upnorth.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
In the country, they're much nicer.
No, no, it's the other wayaround.
You're right Up north, it's thetouristy part, so they're nice.
You get down south, yeah,they're like we're not helping
you, buddy.
So, wow, you and a friend yousaid came and they were 16, you
were 17.
That's really amazing.
Is school a lot different inthe States?
Was it a big culture shock?

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yeah it method of teaching, like it's totally
different For one the schools,like even the grading system.
So in Nigeria an A is 70 of 100.
In the US it's 90.
However it looks we're so dumbhere.
No, it's because like it's sohard, not because how the?
Because the stuff is prettymuch the same, but like it's so

(12:03):
hard to get that 70 because oflike the lecturers are very
strict with like in us I heardyou can cover grade.
That wasn't a daily school,right, you get your score.
You get your score if you'resolved, like in physics, and if
you're solving or you don't putyour units, you lose mark, you
fail the question.
So there was like it's likeit's so hard they are trying to

(12:23):
see who can pass.
It's like it's so hard they aretrying to see who can pass.
It's like not everybody's goingto pass, just the elite of the
elite would pass.
But in US it's very different.
It's very encouraging, likethey want everybody to pass.
There's this like okay,everybody can actually learn and
do it well and pass.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
So it's like I'm surrounded by idiots here.
This is great.
Oh, yeah, Well idiots here.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
This is great, oh yeah.
Well, like it's just, I metsome dumb dog who's excited
about programming a vcr.
I'll be fine here, yeah, yeah,no, no, no, no, no, go ahead, go
ahead I I didn't want to cutyou off.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
I I'm curious to to when did you get the network bug
?
Like when did you get?
How did you go from fixingmom's iphone to like, oh my god,
networking's amazing.
I want to do this for my life.

Speaker 3 (13:09):
When it's more of a, it's different.
So all the schools I waschecking when I was applying for
schools, all these schools.
I was checking for computerscience, computer science.
Then I saw this random schoolcomputer networking, and I see
what's that?
Then I just just startedreading.
It sounded interesting.
I'm like, why not?
And another difference like inNigeria, when you apply for a
program you can't just changeyour major, like that is what

(13:31):
you're going to do for fouryears.
So you have to like make a gooddecision at a young age.
But I heard in US you canalways change your majors.
So I was like, oh, it soundsdifferent.
If I don't like it I can alwaysswitch it out.
But yeah, it's different, let'sgo.
And that was like the one ofthe best decisions I've ever
made, like I really learned itdidn't like it right.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
You said you're doing like web dev or something like
that.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah I tried some html css, although looking at it
that's not all about computerscience.
But at that point I thoughtthat is all about it.
So when I tried html css it, Isaid, okay, it might be the
thing for me.
Did you do any coding?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
during that time, like as you were kind of
figuring out that you wanted todo networking.
Was it something you were kindof in a little bit Like software
development principles oranything, or did that come kind
of after the network engineering?

Speaker 3 (14:19):
So I think coding for me was while in school, when I
realized that the market wasshifting.
Because while in school Irealized that the market was
shifting because in.
So while in school, my firstyear, second year, just reading,
I took the committee at a plusby my like my sophomore year, um
then.
So I now trying to getinternships and also like they
are only software engineeringjobs all day and so for most of

(14:39):
the jobs for internships arelike coding heavy.
So, okay, maybe I have to learncoding myself, because the it
program had some coding courses,but just basic courses.
So I'm like, okay, maybe I haveto actually learn this myself.
So I reached out to my computerscience friends okay, I know, I
said I don't like you guys, butlooks like I might like you
guys and I and I.

(15:00):
But it was not different for mebecause I said, okay, this is
more network automation and notjust web dev.
I'm not building websites, Idon't even need to know anything
about HTML, css.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
So were you saying when you were looking for
internships, you couldn't findnetworking internships?
Most of them are coding.
Is that, yes?
Did I catch that?
Wow, yes.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Okay.
So most of the internships outthere, especially for like it's
like software heavy internships,Even internships out there,
especially for like it's likesoftware heavy internships, Even
the networking ones, there wassome level of automation
required.
So that's when I started doingsome research and I was like I
think I entered at the sweetspot because I saw that, okay,
the market is shifting where,okay, networking is needed, but
they want people to code, theywant people to be able to

(15:41):
automate their systems.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
So that's when I knew that, okay, this is a very,
very mature insight.
And I'm not, I swear to God,I'm not hung up on age, I'm
really not but the maturity ofthat insight and William,
correct me if I'm wrong, butbecause I'm a person who's been
maybe the older you get, themore biased you are and it's
harder to accept new ideas.
But the the longer I've been innetworking, the more I resisted

(16:07):
automation, even though themarket was changing.
And I have since.
I've realized, in my 40s,whatever, uh, slightly older
than you the insight that youhad that the market was changing
.
You seem to have it while youwere in school, which I I think
is brilliant, and you saw theskill set Right, william, like
that's a pretty deep you weren'tjust looking at one signal or

(16:28):
like hey, one thing that I hearso much, still, folks, your age
is what?

Speaker 2 (16:34):
OK, I'm going to give you like four options.
Which one do you think willmake the most money?
And I'm like like that's whatyou want to find where you fit,
what you're happy doing, wherethe market is going, Like
there's all these differentsignals that you can take note
of and that helps inform yourdecision.

(16:54):
And that sounds like kind ofwhat you did.
You had like multiple signalsin different places.
You took those signals to makethe best decision on how to
progress, which I think is howdid you determine that?

Speaker 1 (17:02):
What were you?
What signals, like William said, were you looking at that?
You could see that the marketwas shifting and they wanted
automation.
And the reason I'm asking iswe've been talking about network
automation for decades and theadopter rates aren't that
impressive.
So for you to gain that insight, I think, is I mean, you're a
great person basically Like foryou again, because the industry

(17:22):
hasn't.
The industry is still trying tocatch up to that insight that
you had early on.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
I think it's different because I think, like
you mentioned, you were alreadyin.
Like a lot of people are likealready in network engineers,
but me I was looking at it from,I'm trying to get in.
Okay, I like networkengineering, but I was still
looking at the tech space andall and everything.
Tech space is software.
So I even had friends that camein networking and they switched
over to computer science but Igenuinely actually liked

(17:50):
networking.
I think that was the center ofmy mind, like I actually like
networking.
So, because of everything isnow software, I'm not just going
to leave that.
So I now, okay, is there, whatare the?
Is it possible to still havethat networking and just still
code?
Because is it possible to stillhave that networking and just
still code?
Because I feel, because I, likemost of my study times was
moved to my computer sciencefriends, because that's the best
way to learn how to code from.

(18:11):
So I knew that, okay, I needthe software skill.
But I just felt it.
I don't know if it's just guts,but I just liked and I already
I think I already devoted a lotbecause I already took the
computer a plus.
I was studying for the NetworkPlus at that time.
So in my mind I'm like, okay,it looks like I've already
devoted money to take it to IT,so I think I should stay here.

(18:32):
But okay, software, well, it'snot that bad, I can learn it.
I'm still in school, so I canlearn it.
So I think that was the thing.
So I saw that the whole techspace, not just network
engineering, but the whole techspace, is software, and I saw
that, okay, there was also aplace in IT and networking for
software and it's actuallygaining.
Gaining, what's the word?

(18:53):
It's that gaining movement.
Like a lot of people weretalking about it at that time,
like, okay, network.
And then I just said, okay,python is the language.
And I'm like, okay, everybody'stalking about Python.
Okay, at least it doesn't hateyou when you learn CSS.
It doesn't hate C Sharp, itdoesn't hate any of those C++ or
Python.
I'm like, okay, let me try itout.
I think that's where it's hitoff.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
So, yeah, one observation here, and I think
one thing that's going toprobably serve you really well,
is that the market right now soso like I don't really know when

(19:51):
this started, it's been maybenot 10 years, but that's like
super valuable is to me like oneof the most valuable types of
practitioners out there issomeone that like learned, uh,
you know, say, networkengineering, or you know
sysadmin, server management,compute stuff, and then they
layered on the programmingexperience on top of that for
practical reasons and like learnprogressively, like with their
trade.

(20:11):
So that's, I think that'llserve you well, having that, you
know, a good, solid backgroundin network engineering, while
being able to do some you knowwhere you're at probably some
pretty good coding on top of it.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
If I could, change anything about my career, it
would have been to embraceprogramming much earlier and
jumped into Python.
Now I see the value and I'mamazed at what I'm learning.
But it took me a while and Iresisted.
And, mooney, you made a goodpoint Because you were trying to
get in and you surveyed thelandscape and you made a very

(20:46):
good observation on the skillsthat were needed.
I had been working innetworking for eight or nine
years without those softwaredevelopment skills, so my
experience was they're different.
Never the two, shall you know,meet.
And that worked until itstopped working.
Honestly, right, I found myself,because I wasn't paying

(21:07):
attention like you were andbecause, quite honestly, I had a
negative experience as acomputer science major, failing
out of C++, made a decision thatlike, oh, I just I'm not smart
enough to program.
I can't figure this out.
Now it turns out it wasn't true, but I carried that belief
system with me for a really longtime.
And then the market, the jobmarket, finally moved towards

(21:28):
like hey, if you don't knowprogramming, I mean we, we got
ai, you better get some python.
Buddy, like, what are you doing?
So, um, yeah, if I could changeanything, it would be to follow
the path that you've, you know,been following this this whole
time.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I think it's super, super smart thank you I got some
practical questions if we wantto jump into the day-to-day
stuff.
I'm just itching to ask umsomething you can't ask about
google, william oh, the searchengine is that we have to say
schmoogle.
We can't say so.
I mean just thinking about um,operating networks at scale, of

(22:02):
course.
Uh, you, I mean when I, when Ifirst started doing any sort of
programming, I think the firstreal language I used was pearl
back in the day and there wasn'ta lot of the fancy tools
helping things, like it wasgeneral purpose programming
languages, like expect, thosetypes of things.
But now there's like a nice,just suite of tools that you can
use everywhere you know.

(22:23):
So for cloud stuff, like youhave like the terraform open
tofu or like the domain specificcloud provider stuff.
But then you also have amishmash of like real you know,
usually like Python or Go fornetworking, you know back end
stuff, but like do you have a,do you have like a preferred
method from the tool perspective?
Like how do you view thosetools?

(22:44):
Like Ansible, terraform, python,go like where do they fit and
what you think is valuable foryou know?
Go like where do they fit andwhat you think is valuable for
you know automating and networkspecific stuff, and it might
help too.
So I know enough about googlewhere, like there's lots of
different teams, lots ofdifferent types of
infrastructure that do lots ofdifferent automation, so kind of

(23:04):
like.
I don't know if you canactually talk about the realm of
the network that you you workin.
That might shed some light aswell.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Yeah, thank you.
Then, just to give somebackground information before.
So when I started with Python,so when I knew that, okay,
networking was networkautomation, the language was
Python.
So, just to highlight, therewas like a Coursera course.
So when I first learned how toPython with you, demi, and some
friends, then there was likethis course, google this was

(23:34):
actually a Google courseInteresting.
I didn't know what the outcomewas.
It was a Google IT automationwith Python.
So that gave me a lot ofcontext to automation and Python
.
It's like a Coursera course.
I took it like six courses.
I took it and just opened mymind to like, okay, this is
actually fun.
Then, specifically to google, Ican mention we did do a lot of

(23:57):
things.
Then, first that, sorry, adisclaimer um, this is
definitely just my thoughts.
I'm not speaking on behalf ofgoogle.
Um, yeah, this is definitelyjust me, my thoughts, my ideas.
I'm not speaking on behalf ofanybody.
So, um, at most of all this top, because I also did like an
internship at facebook, now meta, at college and what I've

(24:21):
noticed like this, companies dothings totally differently, like
totally different, like some ofthe tools you mentioned.
I've only read about it andmaybe done some tests with it
but never used.
Like Ansible, there's likealways a Google or like a
company specific stuff that issimilar in some ways but it's
different and because, like youmentioned, like Google, the

(24:44):
scale at which they do stuff isincredible.
Like it's they're talking aboutthousands or millions of
devices.
So you have to, they had to.
They have like internal teamsthat build software to use of
for just their use.
So they have teams that buildsoftware for the deployment team
.
One of them, my current team,is one of those teams.
We build workflows for someoperations.

(25:06):
So most of the tools we'reusing is, like you know, harry
Prophet.
But the common thing I'll sayis like Python and Go.
Like you mentioned, that isactually no more Python,
actually it's just Go.
So previously we used majorlyPython, but there was this big
shift in the company and likemostly Go, almost all systems.
So I came into Google withPython, but now it's mostly Go

(25:31):
lang I use all day.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
I have a question, okay, why I'm not not related to
your job, but as someone who'slearning the very basics of
python.
Now I have friends who are likedude, just go with golang,
don't even bother with python.
So is there a reason to?
I'm trying to ask you aquestion without making it about
your work, but why wouldsomeone go from python to go so
have certain benefits thatPython doesn't Just technically

(25:54):
not related to your job,technically?

Speaker 3 (25:56):
For learning it first for you.
I think with LearnPython youcan learn Go as well, Like it's
one and the same, but I found Goto be a lot faster, I think,
when I because I was alsocurious why they made that shift
and I realized that.
So Python has a lot oflibraries and where there are a
lot of stuff that is packagedand packaged and packaged where

(26:18):
you can't.
Sometimes it's like you'rewriting in English.
That's good about Python, butwith that it's slow.
It's a bit slow because of theall processing that it has done
for you.
So a friend of mine said likein there are two things.
So most times is that thelanguage is doing the processing
or the engineer is doing theprocessing.
So if it's easy for you to write, it's most likely like a lot of

(26:39):
backend processing is beingdone by the programming language
.
It makes it slow.
But for a language like C++,where there's like a lot of
syntax, a lot of you writing thelogic like to just do something
that might take five lines inPython and C++ is like 20 lines.
So that is because that's still20 lines.
It's just done for you in thebackend of the programming

(27:00):
language.
So yeah, so I think we go learnthe kind of founder and middle
spot where it's not as slow asPython but it's also relatively
easy, where there's some thingsin Python like it's also
relatively easy, where, yeah,sometimes in Python like it's
just one line, but in Go youhave to write it yourself, like
in three, four lines.
I think Go just has that sweetspot between speed but also

(27:21):
usability, and I think it waswhen I started at Google.
So I don't even know thecontext between.
I don't know much context withthat, but like using Go, like Go
is a wonderful languageactually it's just made for
network engineering.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
Should I stick with Python and then learn Go,
because I hear Python is theeasiest as far as syntax and
natural yeah, I think if I goback, I'll still learn Python
first.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
Okay, I'll stick with Python?
Yeah, I think you should.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I think you highlighted a pretty good issue
there.
So the big hyperscale networksthat are just huge, the biggest
out there, like for mostnetworks out there, python's
going to be fine.
But operating at such a type ofscale, you know, with Python
being I can't think of the wordinterpreted, so you have this

(28:08):
global interpreter lock that canbasically like bottleneck the
tarnation you know out of, likemulti-threaded network apps.
So you have that problem whichreally doesn't rear its ugly
head until you're probablyoperating at some massive scale.
But then, like even thestandard like Golang has, like I
can't remember the names likeyou have HTTP, like WebSocket,
they have like a few standardlibraries that cover most use

(28:32):
cases that you're going torequire.
But when you deal with Pythonyou're going to have a lot more.
Like you were saying, with thelibrary sprawl.
It's a little complicated.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I'm just going through the list here, one thing
that I wanted to hit and we gotaway from.
So I hate to go backwards here,but it looks like you did some
kind of network operationsresidency program.
So I, I guess you did a bunchof um, you were in school, you
did a bunch of internships I seethat there was a lot of python
stuff in there which obviouslyhas helped you tremendously and

(29:03):
then so it looks like you gotinto, uh, your current employer
with, I guess, some type ofresidency program that was two
years.
Are you able to speak to thatat?
Is that definitely a fresh gradcoming in and like kind of a
boot camp of like hey you'rehere, let's get going?

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, so, like I mentioned, like you mentioned a
lot of I think William mentionedit that a lot of new grads in
schools there's softwareengineering, software
engineering.
So I think that is one effectin companies where they need
like for most companies likethere's not a lot of young folk
interested in networking.
So most of these companies Ithink Meta also has the program,

(29:40):
I think most companies havethese programs where they are
trying.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Because it's a problem people are trying to
figure out.
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Yeah, do you know why you're sofull of wonderful information?
And like?
I'm sorry I know I keepinterrupting you, but like
that's a big one right there,why doesn't anybody want to go
into networking?
I thought it was because weweren't teaching it.
Here you are in a networkingprogram, but your peers don't
want to go into networking.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Is it just not an attractive field?
Yeah, for one, not attractive.
Yeah, yeah, I feel that's it.
I think there's this thingwhere that is being pushed like
software engineer, softwareengineer so definitely network
engineering is not as attractiveas that.
But also I think it's also notbeing taught as much.
Because I had to go out of myway to be actually good at
networking.

(30:28):
Yes, my school did a wonderfulwork, but to actually get these
opportunities with, likeMetaWire, I was in school with
Lenovo I had to go out of my wayto like get this Comtia
certifications because I saw one.
I started them as okay, meansto study off, study, like
personal study, then might aswell just get a cert.
But I saw how thosecertifications because a lot of
these companies were actually,well, I say, impressed.

(30:50):
But they like the fact that, oh, I have networking on the on
Bagan, but I can still code,because most times is, oh, the
young, the young people in theteam, they have software, then
the bit older folks, they arenetwork gurus.
So but I think one thing thathelps me like stand out is the
fact that, oh, I have thesoftware skills but I also have

(31:11):
a bit of the networking and I'minterested in networking, so
they don't see that a lot.
So when they see somebodyactually interested in
networking but can also code,that's like okay, that's a-,
you're a unicorn.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
You're like right.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (31:25):
I've heard of you.
There's one of you out thereand, like you're the guy, it's
me.
Keep following this path righthere.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
this is I mean this is the path to success.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
I think, right, yeah, this is so I.
I'm sorry I know I interruptedyou so you were getting out of
school or a bunch of people theywant to go into coding, and how
did you find the residencyprogram?

Speaker 3 (31:44):
yeah, so I actually knew.
So I knew the residency programlike in my third year because I
actually knew somebody in it.
So I think that's how I first.
So I knew a graduate from thatprogram and he told me about it.
I was like, oh awesome.
So I just started and my fourthyear I looked into it, then I
applied.
So the program is like so thesetop companies they're not

(32:05):
trying to bring in people.
Okay, the the bar for do youhave to definitely be technical.
They have interviews, but thebar to enter wasn't as high as
like employing a networkengineer at Google.
So the bar is that okay, you'reyoung and you really, really
want to do networking, technicalinterview to get in yes and

(32:26):
sell us about CCP to UDP, ccp.
That's the thing.
So I think those questions CCP,udp, ospf, I think some dabbled
in pgp, but it's just a bit butyour regular network
engineering interview, interviewquestions but they also asked
interviews also based on likefor some people that were more
software but had the littlenetwork like I didn't have, like

(32:47):
, I had little coded.
But I heard from someone tothat in the program that oh, she
got a more coding questionbecause that was her background.
But these programs are like toget new grads into and teach
them and train them in thenetworking space and after the
two years rotation they getplaced in a team in the
networking space.
It has a network engineer as aCPM, a network engineer, either

(33:10):
as a network engineer, as a CPM,a network engineer.
I think recently they've alsobeen adding a pure software
engineer, but in the networkingspace, in the network domain.
So yeah, so that's the program.
So I found the program, Iapplied.
So that's very, verystraightforward.
So I knew of the program.
Actually, and funny, I appliedfor a cloud program because the
network program wasn't yetavailable and the recruiter was

(33:34):
like your resume looks good forthis program.
I was like yes, I know, butit's not yet out.
So she was like, okay, let'spass on that.
And when the network rotationsopened up I applied for that.
So it was just like a perfectfit for me and I guess I was
lucky.
But yeah, it was just a verygood fit for me.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
But, like I mentioned , the program for training new
grads into the networking spacethis reminds me of like the nfl
draft and you're like a highfirst round draft pick, so
you're going through the motionsand you have a lot of skills
and experience from yeah, prettyawesome stuff.
Isn't that kind of like how itfeels like, with the intern
program directly getting draftedto?

(34:12):
I mean honestly, like thePatriots in your case, or some
Titan, you know, snatching uptrophies?
So pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
I'm going to ask a question that is a little
embarrassing to ask, but I seethat I try to think of how to
say things that don't sound likea complete jerk, but I see that
you are.
Well right.
Well.
So what I'm looking at isyou're a network automation
engineer now.
Prior to that, you were anetwork engineer.
They're very to me.

(34:44):
I guess what I'm trying to digat is do you consider yourself a
network engineer?
What's behind that question isnetwork engineer for me has been
a very different experiencethan what I see in here.
You have done you're, you'vebeen coding, you've been
resolving bugs, you've beendoing all kinds of cool python
and building custom applicationsto manage millions of devices.

(35:06):
Like in my mind, a networkengineer is different than a
network automation engineer, andI don't know if that's a fair
demark that I'm creating, but doyou think that was two separate
career fields?

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying Because
I first started like my firstrotations.
I was doing like your basiclogging into some devices.
But it was like in a test lab,but logging into devices.
I did some tests for JCPsnooping.
Then I got into more caseswhere they automate some
deployments, write code to pushsome deployments from BGP.

(35:41):
So I stopped writing theconfigs but now writing code to
push it.
But I do believe they areseparate.
Actually, my current manager nowbut he always says that he
thinks of us as processengineers or systems engineers,
less of your, because he wasalso like the same way of okay,
originally like pure networkengineer and later on inside the

(36:05):
system of like code.
So he always believes that,okay, we're more of systems
slash process engineers wherewe're writing code, but we're
not actually doing yourtraditional BGP, ospf, isis,
like you're not doing thatanymore.
And I agree with you.
Personally I still likenetworking.

(36:25):
That's why I now to still withmy chest say I'm a network
engineer.
I now go out of my way to dosome study.
So I'm currently studying forthe CCMP data center.
I don't need it for work.
It's not related to what I'mdoing at all, but I'm just to

(36:45):
say, I'm a network engineer.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Well, I mean, you're definitely a network engineer
and I hope that didn't comeacross as me yeah yeah, but yeah
I just because what'sinteresting to me in the
industry is, like you hadpointed it out earlier, we have
comp sci students who come outand then maybe networking people
that, like you know, is iteasier to teach?
Again, you're a unicorn, youcame with both skill sets and

(37:09):
you're very good at both.
It sounds like networking andcoding.
But, know, is it easier to takea comp sci student who knows
nothing about networking andteach them enough networking to
be a network automation engineer?
Right, like, is that a thing?
Or can you take an older guylike me who only knows
networking and it's like, okay,buddy, time to learn Python and
Git and CICD pipelines and like?

(37:29):
So I don't know where I'm goingwith all that, but it's just
interesting to me.
You have both.
And because what I find, a lotof the network automation
tooling that I've used and notPython, like, not coding, but
the actual tools people havecreated to me have always felt
like and looked like somethingthat were created by software
development, people that nevermanaged to network.

(37:49):
So there was so much frictionfor people like me to try to use
this.
Like what is this thing?
There's no networking context,this is all software dev.
Like I hate it, right, but thensomeone like you who has done
networking you're a networkengineer, but you also bring
that coding experience I'mguessing if someone like you
created I don't know, let's say,a data center fabric automation

(38:11):
platform, there'd be enoughnetworking context in that tool
for it to feel familiar to atrad net ops like me who's like
you know what is this stuff.
So I don't know that theindustry is changing.
It's kind of interesting to methat these worlds are coming
together and I guess theindustry is trying to figure out
how to navigate and go forward.
I would love a tool written byyou that when I look at it and

(38:34):
use it it feels like networkingand so software-y it's.
You know we have to get oldguys to automate and I just
don't know how to do it with alot of the tooling that I've
touched.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Yeah, I totally understand and I agree with you
and I'll give some examples.
But to first answer yourquestion, I think most companies
are doing the route.
So both ways, because I'mspeaking to one of my coworkers.
I heard at the time at one ofthe companies I worked at they
were incentivized.
What's the word?
They were encouraging, yes, yes, they were encouraging network

(39:10):
engineers to code by giving thema bonus If you lend it.
And there was like this.
The company had this system.
So like a badge, like generallyeven the software engineers,
there's this like to say.
I'm proficient at the language,so normally software engineers
are expected to have like tomark that badge, but they were
encouraging network engineers bygiving them a small bonus if

(39:32):
you got that badge.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
I would have placed my ass off if they paid me more.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, I mean that's awesome.
That's a great way to learn.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Because my environment was.
I couldn't find the time to dothat.
There was no incentive otherthan you're going to lose your
job eventually and I'm like I'mdrowning in maintenance windows.
I don't know when to do it.
If they incentivize me withmoney, that's really smart yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
So that company did that, where they were
encouraging their networkengineers to code also.
They were now employing so, butthey understood that the market
space is mostly softwareengineers that have little to no
networking.
And that's this.
Program's like um, the networkrotations program they are, meta
has something like that.
But for new grads too, most ofthese companies they have

(40:14):
programs where they bring you on, bring you on as a pure
software engineer and teach youenough networking to code.
That's the thing.
So in that case Does that work?

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Because, honestly, I feel like networking is easier
than coding.
I know that I'm biased andright, but I feel like it's
easier to teach a software devenough networking to get by than
the reverse.
Now, william isn't necessarilylike.
William's been coding forever,so I don't know which one of us
is more representative ofnetwork engineers in general.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Probably you because I tried to get out of networking
for like 20 years and I nevercould.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Probably you because I tried to get out of networking
for like 20 years and I nevercould I think, like you
mentioned, it's enough to go by,because I was in this team
where previously I was in thisteam where they had a network
engineering team, they had asoftware engineering team.
So the network engineers willwrite the design doc, write what

(41:12):
they want automated, then theypass it to the software team and
the software team would writeit up.
So I was in the QA team and myjob was to get the software, get
the network requirements, getthe code that was written and
test it.
Is the code doing what theysaid it should do?

(41:34):
And two, is it actually workinglike fine bugs?
So I realized that there wasthis huge disconnect where the
network engineers can make amistake, like they can make a
clear mistake that even thenetwork engineer will be like oh
, this is a clear error.
Like a network engineer readingthis will be like oh, this is
obviously a mistake.
But a software engineer has nocontext whatsoever that he codes

(41:56):
it up.
So when I'm reading the doc,I'm like this doesn't make sense
.
So when I'm reading the code,I'm like this doesn't make sense
.
So I went back to the doc.
I'm like, oh, he made a mistake, but it was clear it's a
mistake because I, because Ihave that like both domain, the
knowledge from both domains, butso I saw that gap.
But then I'm now seeing teamsand I've seen them.
They've been changing thestructure where it's one team,

(42:18):
the network engineer and thesoftware engineer, like right
now, my team, they are networkengineers on the team and they
are software engineers on theteam.
Originally they are pairing themup, but now they're going to
the stage where they are tellingthe network engineers to learn
coding and they are telling thesoftware engineers.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Are they teaching each other?

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yes, the goal is that after a while they should be
swapping.
If you speak to both people,you shouldn't know there's a
difference that this one is asoftware engineer or this is a
network engineer.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
I would argue it's a much more effective way to learn
.
Yes, for someone like you toteach me coding, because if we
were together and taught eachother what we knew, then the
paths I've tried, I think sothey're seeing success in that.
That's what they're doing andit's working.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, sorry, I didn't get the last part.
My network first did.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
It's okay.
They're seeing success inpairing traditional network
engineers and developerstogether and teaching each other
Because everybody wins.
I guess right.
If we need the skill set youhave, naturally because you're
so brilliant and you saw thewriting on the walls, but
there's people like me who needto.
I would have loved to have beenpaired with a developer and had

(43:33):
a relationship with them andworked together.
We were always siloed and thatdidn't happen and I was on my
own, like, okay, nice weekends,holidays, like teach yourself
buddy, which just yeah, thatsays something.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
you have to have the willingness to like learn.
You want to have to want to doit, because if you don't really
want to do it, you can get themandate from, like, a leader and
say, hey, go do this.
Sit with this person and youcan say, yeah, I'll do that, and
then go and listen and notreally let any of it sink in.
You really have to want to getbetter.
You have to want to improve andget you know those skills, and
I do know a lot of people outthere that are never going to

(44:04):
code, they're never going to getAI skills under their belt, but
they are like true, likethey're doing things in the
network space where all of theircycles are in the bits and the
bytes of, like, deep networkengineering.
They don't have any time andthe work they're doing is so
important with as deep asthey're going that they they
need to stay there, because Idon't know a lot of people that

(44:27):
can do those types of jobs anddedicate their life to that
trade and that aspect of thattrade.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
So Muna's skill set is the future, and I guess the
future is now right.
But so to have both Muna is theperfect recipe for success.
But to William's point, ifyou're out there and you're
working and networking andyou're super busy and working
all the maintenance windows andjust trying to keep the lights
on, you know, if you have afamily as well, and like you

(44:55):
know responsibilities, like ifthe the older you get, the more
responsibility you have, theharder it is to find those
cycles to teach yourself thingsyou know in the, in the off
hours.
Um, even though it's going tobe critical to to success, and I
mean, I've seen the writing onthe walls I'm learning coding,
not because I love coding, butbecause I know I'll be
irrelevant in the space if Idon't.

(45:16):
Ai is here and I'm, you know,trying to get this LLM you know
book for dummies basicallystarted because I know that
that's the next right.
Like automation was yesterdaykind of you know and and and and
.
Ai is the.
I mean you got people vibecoding.
For Christ's sake.
Like you know they're coding.
I don't even know what they'redoing, you know because of AI.
So I don't know.

(45:36):
There's always this.
It's just fascinating to methis.
I don't know as an industry andmaybe it's because I work at a
networking vendor and because Itruly love networking I don't
know how we can get to a betterplace where we have good network
engineers who also have thesoftware skills they need, when
our colleges I'm not trying toget into a soapbox, but it seems

(45:58):
to be that our colleges arespitting out comp sci graduates
who aren't interested innetworking for the most part and
then networking people whoaren't necessarily interested in
coding.
And maybe this is old guy talk.
Maybe the newer kids coming upthey love both, like yourself,
but it's just not what I've seen.
So I'm very refreshed andhopeful and optimistic hearing
your story, because to have bothis great, because I've always

(46:22):
seen dev and networking as silosand we, we can't.
We can't move our industryforward and get into where it
needs to go.
Like once cloud came along andit was like push button,
everything.
It kind of ruined it for theold school trad netop guys like
that became an option.
So like, all right, I guess.
I guess we got to figure outautomation because somebody
figured out how to make itconsumable and easy.

(46:42):
Right, william, I see a nod inyour head.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Oh yeah, I remember the first time I fought
Terraform when it first came outLike this bot stuff is a fad.
Nobody's going to put theirstuff in like another person's
data center.
Get out of here.
This Terraform thing is like ahipster, you know chai latte on
the beach with sandals thing onthe phone, you know.
But then I realized, you know,after using it and seeing it in

(47:07):
action and doing things with it,like okay, I see why this tool
is created and the problem itsolves.
I'm a long term fan now.
I love it.
So yeah, you got to get youknow.
Sometimes it takes a second toget in.
You have to get in that turnand understand what's happening
and wrap your head around itbefore you can fully embrace it.
So be curious out there, folks.
That's the thing Be curious,get out there and test things
out.

(47:28):
Everything's free, trial oropen source.
There's so much stuff out thereto just go out and free tier
your time up with.
So yeah, be curious.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
And be willing to question your own biases and
preconceived notions of reality.
And I know that that soundskind of like woo-woo and like
way too psychological, but Iresisted coding for probably
decades because I had anexperience when I was 19,
created neural pathways in mybrain that said I'm not smart
enough to do this.
Now I found a circuitous routeback into tech through climbing

(47:57):
ladders and getting shocked andblah, blah, blah and then CCNA
and here we are.
But if you're a networkengineer, what's our message
here?
I mean, I think, if you're atraditional what Scott Robama
called tradnet ops person andyou don't want to automate, and
you can, and that's not for us.
And I think Mooney are aperfect example of someone who
really has the right mindset,the right combination of skills

(48:19):
that are going to succeed inthis software driven world.
Right, you, it's going to bevery difficult, I think, to
compete as a network onlyskilled person as time
progresses, because that's justnot where the industry is and
definitely not you know whereit's headed.
Where do you see the future ofnetwork engineering?
I mean, I know that it's anunfair question to ask you, but

(48:39):
somebody who's coming up, I meanthere's.
So there's going to be people.
We have a lot of people wholisten, who are either trying to
get in or to help desk or theywant to be in networking, and
they're.
They come along this, this ridewith us because they want to do
this job.
What would you tell somebodycoming up um that that wants to
be a network engineer?
You know how should they do it,what skills do they need?
What advice, yeah, fornewcomers that want to get so.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
So for someone like, let's say, about to graduate or
just trying to switch careers, Iwas like, well, what do I need
to do?
Like, I think it's clear.
I think one, you should be opento coding and, like you
mentioned, there's a lot ofbiases, like when you hear
coding C++, no, or is it allHTML CSS, like in my case at
first, I think, like, justembrace it.

(49:22):
Yes, there's vibe coding, butstill you should understand how
to code, because I think thevalue is turning less from oh,
can I code?
Or less of can I write somecommands.
I think now the value is do Iunderstand how the system works?
Like, especially like, if you,because with AI, there's a

(49:43):
demand for large infrastructures, so there's a demand for large
data centers.
So, like, even the government,they're investing in data
centers.
So with all of that, there'sgoing to be jobs open for, like,
network engineers and thedemand will be like okay, I need
people that can understand thislarge, complex networks.
You won't need to type in NBGBcommand anymore.

(50:06):
You might not need to evenwrite the code.
Like, you might write the code,but oh you hit me right in the
heart Hold on hold on.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
I just need a minute.
I need a minute.
Oh my God, you just attacked myentire.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Was your back?

Speaker 1 (50:21):
okay too when you jerked sideways like that, but
in the chest, when he said that,but that's where we are, but
yeah, it's all right.
I just I had a visceralreaction.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
I'm gonna mute myself and let you keep talking and
you might even need to for thefood that I could, because I'm
obviously like right now I stillcode.
Now it's like they're teachingfolks to code from like high
school.
Like you see, I'm seeing like15 year old kids that can't do
more coding than I can.
So coding is now turning tolike oh, can I speak Like the

(50:55):
next generation of?
That's why, like almosteverybody coming out from
college, at least they arefluent in Python and that's like
the list.
So I think where you now makeyourself valuable is can you
understand systems?
Can you understand complexsystem, and that's for me that's
valuable, since I understand abit of them.
No, I'm still learning, though,like the general network

(51:16):
technologies, as now when I read, like in my blog, I'm not
focused on the commands, I'mtrying to understand okay, what
was the concept?
What are you trying to do here?
So when you understand theselike complex protocols or
technologies, understand howthey work, you're able to now
replicate that knowledge tosolve a problem.
Like in the office the otherday they were explaining like a

(51:39):
topology.
I'm like that's how OSPF works,like it's not OSPF.
But I swear like everythingthey explained was like a
topology.
I'm like that's how ospf workslike it's not ospf, but I swear
like everything they explainedwas like ospf.
So I was able to do that mentalmapping because of I understood
, like some core networkengineering, some people there
didn't understand, didn't evenknow what ospf like is on the
table, so they had to understandit as a fresh topic.

(52:02):
But since I already had likethat knowledge of OSPF, I was
just drawing patterns tounderstand what they were
talking about.
Openly learning new technologies, learning how the technologies
work, and not necessarily or howto implement it.
Anybody, you can learn how toimplement some stuff later on,
but what will make you valuable?
Because, like I mentioned, thetools that most people are using
like, they don't even use it atgoogle.

(52:27):
So now the question is in yourinterviews they also ask you
those questions because, butwhat they are looking for is
okay, can you adapt?
Okay, you say that what you knowis c++.
Can you do you know that stuffenough?
Not just, oh, I can write c++,but how do you think, how are
you understanding this?
If I give you a problem, howare you going to solve it?
So I think now, that's why Ialways believe that, yes, as I
believe AI can never 100%replace humans, because that

(52:50):
place of understanding, solvingproblems, ai is still.
In the grand scheme of things,it's still garbage in, garbage
out.
So you need someone to haveenough context to even use AI.
You need someone in the drivingseat to do that kind of talent
they're looking for now, someonethat can understand systems
problems.
So think outside the box.

(53:11):
I know that's very cheesy, butyeah, I think outside the box.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
I think that's spot on.
Yeah, if you can understandcomplex systems, how they work,
the business problem that thosecomplex systems are solving, and
then be able to apply thatproblem solving methodology
system wide in differentcontexts, I mean, you're gold in
the market.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Yeah, and that's why you still need to understand how
things were done before.
I mean, that's why I'm evenlearning still, like studying
for CTNP, even though I don'tneed it, because I just want to
see how, oh how were theysolving problems back then.
So when they took us the olderengineers in the office, I
noticed that a lot of times theyare like they make references

(53:56):
to how they were doing things 10years ago, but I don't have
that reference.
So they are able to like saythat, okay, this won't work
because that's how it was donebefore and this would work this.
So that fundamental knowledgeis still very needed.
So, like I don't bash againstcertifications, although I know
like, okay, the paper might notmean as much, but the knowledge
you're getting from there isstill useful.
Just always learn and whenyou're learning, just be

(54:19):
thinking on the grand scale.
One of my managers she was likeanytime you're doing anything,
always think skill.
How can I do this for 100 000network switches?
That's how you should always bethinking.
So because if I bring up asolution, that because I think
we had a problem when I wasbringing up solutions for one
device or two device.
The thing was like that's notscalable, that's not scalable,

(54:41):
so that's how one should bethinking.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I'll scale it.
I just need more time.
Man, I can do one at a time.
I just give me a year, I'll befine.
Nuna, this has been soinsightful, so wonderful.
You're such a great energy.
I've learned so much fromtalking to you and I'd love to
have you on again sometime,because I feel like sometimes I
just meet people, I feel like Icould talk to them forever.
You know, we're at the hour.

(55:04):
I got to let William get to bed.
The poor guy, look at him.
He's going to fall over.
Thank you both for being here.
Muna, where can people find youif they want to learn more
about what you're up to?

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Okay, so my LinkedIn, I can share it with you.
I I can share it with you.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
I'll leave it in the show notes.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
Yeah, so my LinkedIn is there.
My blog that's like my personalnotes.
So I still have some notes thatI've not because I still have
to refine it, clean the Englishbefore posting it.
But I try as much as possibleto drop my like my personal
notes yeah, so it'snetworksbymunacom Network, una

(55:48):
and a.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, and I checked it out and I really enjoyed it.
And when you figure out how evpnbx land works, you can write a
blog about it and teach me,because I'm still trying to.
I'm still trying to figure itout.
William, do you have anyparting thoughts?
My friend people obviously knowwhere to find you cloud gambit.
Uh, you know william iseverywhere, but you have any
parting thoughts?
My friend People obviously knowwhere to find you Cloud Gambit.
You know William is everywhere,but you have any parting
thoughts?

Speaker 2 (56:05):
No, just stay curious .
And I thought this was a reallyinteresting.
Your background and your storyis just different.
I like it.
It was really refreshing, andit's refreshing also to see your
excitement and the positiveexperiences that you've had.
I love to hear stuff like thatit was great.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Thank you, we'll be watching.
I can't wait to see what you donext.
I can't wait till you create astartup and become bigger than
your current employer.
It's going to be amazing.
You're in the right place forthat kind of.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
Thing.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah, as always, listeners.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this episode.
You can find all things Art ofNetEng at our Linktree.
It's Linktree forward slash Artof NetEng.
I always like to mention thatwe have a Discord server in that
Linktree called it's All Aboutthe Journey.
We have thousands of folks inthere studying for all kinds of

(56:51):
different technologiescertifications, lifting each
other up when they fail acertification and celebrating
each other when they win.
So if you don't have acommunity, you can check it out
Again.
Linktree forward slash Art ofNetEng.
Thanks so much for listeningand we'll catch you next time on
the Art of Network Engineeringpodcast.
Hey folks, if you like what youheard today, please subscribe

(57:14):
to our podcast and your favoritepodcatcher.
You can find us on socials atArt of NetEng, and you can visit
linktree forward at Art ofNetEng.
And you can visit linktreecomforward slash Art of NetEng for
links to all of our content,including the A1 merch store and
our virtual community onDiscord called it's All About
the Journey.
You can see our pretty faces onour YouTube channel named the
Art of Network Engineering.
That's youtubecom forward slashArt of NetEng.

(57:37):
Thanks for listening.