#36 Paratruther - Catcher in the Conspiracy

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back.
This is Paratruther episodenumber 36.
I've got Mr Anderson and hisbrain.
I always mention your brain, mrAnderson, this top priority
here.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Apply pressure on me to do well.
I know what it is.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
So I bring the chaos and you bring the order.
So order ab ko there you go,everybody's like illuminati
confirmed at this point.
Um no, this is an interesting.
It's going to be a fun episode,if, if you like, conversation
on esoteric, hidden history,strangeness and connectivity to

(00:51):
the zeitgeist, if that makes anysense.
A little background here beforeI tell you what the episode's
about.
Folks, in 1997, I was 17 yearsold and a movie called
Conspiracy Theory came out withMel Gibson.
You've probably seen it ifyou're anywhere near my age.

(01:11):
Great movie, and in the 90s thiswas, this was rife for, like,
there was the right wing, if youeven want to call it that, like
the movement that sprung up inthe post-Ruby Ridge and Waco,
and it culminated, kind of justpeaked, right around the time of

(01:32):
Oklahoma City, which is a that.
The reality that we're shoveled, that we're spoon-fed by the
mainstream media or by theeducational establishment is
nonsense.
Educational establishment isnonsense and I understood that

(02:08):
very well.
You know I've talked about thisbefore my dad, who's, you know,
very successful.
But you know, after again,those events like Ruby Ridge and
and Waco and the assaultweapons ban, he started to to
question what the hell's goingon Like and so I went to
meetings with him.
I've got to see Bo Grites speak, speak.
He was, you know they justawesome.
We need to do one on him oh, weneed to do one on bo like I met

(02:30):
him in person a couple of times.
Uh, just an amazing individual,listen to him on the radio.
When I was, you know, 15 yearsold and I tune in.
This was like the patriot radio, wars and stuff.
I grew up around this.
I mean, my dad had like copiesof like black helicopters over
amer Wars and stuff.
I grew up around this.
I mean, my dad had copies ofblack helicopters over America
and stuff.
I knew about conspiracy theoryand one of the connecting issues

(02:53):
with the strangeness of ourtimes, especially the 20th
century.
If you watch the movieConspiracy Theory with Mel
Gibson is as soon as he goes andhe has, he has to his comfort
item like his, his blankie, likeLinus has on the peanuts, is a

(03:13):
copy of the catcher in the ryeand he goes into a bookstore, if
I'm my memory serves, and assoon as they scan it it goes
into like a database and they'relike, because they were looking
for him, like who's buying thecatcher in the rye and we're
going to get into like JDSalinger and the catcher in the
rye and other things.
But it wasn't until 2009 I wasgoing through.

(03:36):
It was a strange time in mylife too.
I was out in Utah, I went outto to go to the VA there and I
there with a friend of mine thatI was in combat with, and the
day that I was leaving, havinggone to the VA and that's a
whole other podcast how strangethat time was for me.
So I just turned 30.

(03:56):
And he had a copy of theCatcher in the Rye and I was in
the utah airport.
It was like a massive delay,weather delays getting back to
to dallas, and so I read theentire book.
Just, you know, in the, in thedifference in time and waiting
and delays and everything, Iread the catcher in the rye and

(04:19):
I that was probably the worstthing I could have read at that
time too, but I'm like you know,I have to be weird well, he
wrote it going into war, so it'sright.
It's really funny yeah, it's a,it's a and it's such a strange
book like there's the mere factand I don't want to ruin some of
the notes that you have, butthe mere fact that this could,

(04:39):
that the catcher in the rye, issome kind of comforting thing.
It's an awful, awful book.
Like it's, just like it's not.
I mean, if you really dig intothe, the character and the uh,
the message there it's, it'salmost like it's you're reading
something that I think is meantfor something else, like and and

(04:59):
that's probably why it has sucha, the mystique around it and
the lore around it is becausewhat you're reading isn't really
the story.
There's something, I thinkthere's like a hidden message in
it, but I want to throw it toyou, mr Anderson, again, welcome
back to episode number 36.
And I'm glad you're here withwith your brain, and that you're

(05:20):
able to to communicate from theother dimension that you're in,
sir.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I'm glad we're doing this.
We've been talking about doingone on old Jerome JD Salinger
for a while and there's a prettygood documentary if people are
interested.
He passed in 2010.
I believe it came out in 2013called Salinger, and it does a
pretty good job delving into alot of the history that I didn't
even know about.
I mean, I watched thisdocumentary I think almost a

(05:50):
decade ago, a little after itcame out, but there's some
strange stuff about Catcher andso why I mentioned it was being
written while he was going intowar.
Was he was actually initiatedinto World War II on D-Day?
Was he was actually initiatedinto World War II on D-Day?
And he was initially rejectedby the army for medical reasons.
He had to really fight toothand nail to get in, but that's

(06:12):
when he was initiated and at thetime he had six chapters of
Ketcher in his backpack and hementioned later it was the only
thing that kept him alive.
He mentioned this to a guynamed Whit Burnett, who is a
short story professor atColumbia, which is where he went
, and actually the editor atthis magazine called Story
Magazine that publishedSalinger's first piece because

(06:37):
he'd written a lot of you knowpieces and things like that
before, but this was his firstreally effort to write a book
and so there's actually apicture that's captured.
It's the only picture of himriding catcher and you can see
him sitting down at a benchduring World War II.
And so his entire mission duringWorld War II was kind of

(06:59):
strange in and of itself.
He was in counterintelligence,so he was picking up Nazis right
and trying to extractinformation from them, and even
after the war I mean, the poorguy he did suffer like a
psychological breakdown.
There was like one part of aletter I remember, where he was

(07:20):
writing to his mom and he said Idon't even remember what it's
like to be a civilian.
You know I dig my foxholes downto what a coward would do.
That's how deep I'm going.
Because he was scared, he waspetrified, but he ended up being
admitted into NurembergHospital and was there for a
couple of months after VE Dayand the Germans surrendered and

(07:43):
then he stayed there after thatVE Day and after his.
You know, whatever he was doingat Nuremberg Hospital when he
was admitted there and was inthis denazification program and
actually one of the people heinterrogated that was a member
of the Nazi party was his firstwife named Sylvia, and he

(08:04):
married her, which was a bigno-no and brought her back to
the States.
And there was a research whoconfirmed it through logs at
Ellis Island that he did marryher.
And he had this weirdconnection where he said they
could communicate telepathicallyand they met each other in
dreams and could finish thedreams with each other.
So I've often wondered how thisties into MKUltra.

(08:28):
And again, he hadn't finishedthe book yet and he actually
didn't even finish it when WorldWar II concluded or his service
in World War II concluded.
It actually took like anotheryear or so afterwards.
So I've always wondered.
Yeah, that's when it waspublished.
But he fought a while to get itpublished because he took it to
I forget which place it was.

(08:50):
But the guy, the lead editor,after reading the book said it's
a good book.
But of course Holden is crazy.
And so Salinger like stormedout and was crying when he left
because I think Holden Caulfieldin a lot of respects was a
version of his shadow self.
But I'm often interested in whatsort of black magic you know,

(09:11):
so to speak, is wrapped up inthat book and what kind of mind
experiments may have beenperformed at Nuremberg Hospital
and whether Sylvia was some sortof handler for him for a while,
because they were actuallymarried like two years.
But shortly after arriving inthe U S he he filed for an
annulment on the on the groundsof deception.
But if you're working incounterintelligence that long

(09:34):
and you have friends who areworking in counterintelligence
who know you very well and it'sillegal to bring home a Nazi,
let alone marry her, then ofcourse they knew that Right.
So why'd they allow it?
That's a lot to unpack, I'msorry.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I would also say that my experience in combat and
being in an elite unit to workin counterintelligence I only
met one guy in the entire and Imet people from CIA, I met
people from FBI, I met peoplefrom Delta Force and other

(10:13):
things that we worked with, butI only met one guy who was CI
and he was a little bit olderthan me at the time.
This was early 2000s and Ithought what do you do again?
He just showed up one day andhe explained to me
counterintelligence.
I said we have militaryintelligence here.

(10:33):
Why are you not attached tothem?
I'm not in the MI, it's a smallclub.
I mean, it's like it's a.
It's a small club.
You know like again, I only metone, one guy, the entire mind
that I know of, and there'spsychological operations,
there's a, there's militaryintelligence or special

(10:54):
operations, butcounterintelligence is a whole
other animal.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
I know.
So I wondered how he even Wascommissioned to do that,
somebody who had no.
I mean, he actually went to amilitary school.
I think he went to Valley Forge, because he would often joke
with his friends that JD stoodfor juvenile delinquent, because
he was kicked out of so manyprep schools as a kid.
A kid.

(11:25):
So they put him in Valley Forge, a military school, and he kind
of got his act together, butoutside of that he had no
military training.
So how do you go from that intocounterintelligence immediately?
I never understood that.
And then after you suffer amental breakdown and are
hospitalized orinstitutionalized at Nuremberg
Hospital for a couple of months,how do they not send you
immediately back?
How do they keep you on thepayroll, so to speak, and

(11:47):
working towards?
You know it had to have beenOperation Paperclip, he had to
have a hand in that.
But it's also really telling tome because if you kind of follow
the arc of his storyline of himwanting to be a writer and
going to Columbia and, like Isaid, he met that guy, whit
Burnett, a professor at Columbia, published his first short
story.
He just fought so hard to bepublished in the New Yorker and

(12:11):
it was funny because up untilthe breakout of our involvement
in the war following PearlHarbor that same year he just
kept being issued rejectionafter rejection.
I think one response from theNew Yorker after rejecting one
of his short stories wassomething like it would have
worked out better for us if MrSalinger had not strained so

(12:31):
much for cleverness.
But right before Pearl Harborhe did have something accepted
and it was called A SlightRebellion Off Madison and it was
the first time he introducedthis character, holden Caulfield
.
He was the author of thisparticular short story and it

(12:51):
was funny because it wasaccepted and then they shelved
it because immediately followingthe acceptance I guess they
wanted to reorient themselves ormake priority for things that
might have been more thematicfor the war Because, like I
mentioned, pearl Harbor happenedalmost immediately after that.
But the short story even beforethat was weird.
It was titled I Went to Schoolwith Adolf Hitler.

(13:13):
I don't know why he wrote that,but he did so.
He was livid that they shelvedit after accepting it and he
kept trying to write shortstories and he had some
published even when he wasoverseas fighting during World
War II.
But the first one he wrote thatwas actually published after

(13:34):
coming back from World War IIwas titled I'm Crazy, and again
it was this reemergence ofHolden Caulfield.
But that's just so telling tome.
After you're institutionalized,the first short story you write
that's published is called I'mCrazy, and you see Holden show
up for the second time.
It's odd.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
When's the last time you read the book?
A while ago.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, a long time.
I got really bored with itactually.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
I mean I long time I got really bored with it.
Actually, I mean I absorbed it.
There's a theme in there.
It's very unmasculine, so whatI got from it it's like mass
shooter type rage againstsociety.
That's the way I felt when Iread it.
It was like the expectationsthis young man, holden Caulfield

(14:30):
, has, and then he's justconstantly rejected, dejected,
if you will.
There's an underlying themethere of not fitting in being an
outlier.
Um he, he uses the word phonyyes over and over.

(14:54):
It's a phony, you're a phony.
I just remember that's what Ikept, like you know some of the
thing, and then gd, like just gd, all the time right you know,
in the book.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Right, there's something with that and a lot of
people will um talk about the,the last, how the book concludes
, like the last two sentences,and it's what is it?
Don't tell anybody anything.
If you do, you start missingeverybody.
It's like I don't agree withthat.
Don't tell anybody anything,just keep it all pinned in.
Like that's the recipe for likean implosive personality,

(15:28):
especially if you're goingaround taking the Lord's name in
vain and everything and callingpeople phonies, which, if you
look at some of the people whoyou know you were mentioning
them at the beginning of theshow you know the guy who killed
John Lennon them at thebeginning of the show, like you
know the guy who killed johnlennon and then, shortly after
that, you know you had reaganand that's how they labeled
people were phonies, right yeahmartin david chapman right shot

(15:53):
john lennon.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Was that 1980?
That?
Was 1980 and then 81, you hadjohn hinkley.
I was just looking here.
John hinkley jr was a lonelymid-20 who was obsessed with the
book the Catcher in the Rye andJohn Lennon.
So he was obsessed with JohnLennon but he shot Reagan and of
course he also had the Jodie.

(16:15):
Foster, you know, supposedly hadthe Jodie Foster obsession
After his assassination attempton Ronald Reagan in 1981, police
found the catcher in the rye inhis hotel room.
Hinckley later admitted tobeing an admirer of Mark David
Chapman and studying his attempton John Lennon which wasn't an
attempt, I mean he killed JohnLennon.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
But Right Outside the Dakota.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Right, and of course you get into the whole Hinckley
background.
Like Hinckley background.
Hinckley and I can look this upand maybe not unless they've
scrubbed it from the internet,but his brother, john Hinckley's
brother, had a meeting with oneof the Bushes.
The Bushes and the Hinckleyswere really well connected, of

(17:01):
course.
Bush 41, george Herbert WalkerGeorge Herbert Walker Bush was
vice president at the time.
You know stood to gaineverything by Reagan being shot.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah, I shot him and his press secretary and they
didn't even look at that.
Right, they just kind ofglossed over that connection.
And John Hinckley, I think hesaid if you want want my defense
, all you have to do is readcatcher in the rye.
But now he's writing some goodcountry music, isn't he?

Speaker 1 (17:31):
he's on youtube.
Uh, yeah, he's, I see him righthere.
He's on youtube.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
He's writing some songs isn't that on that spotify
list you shared with me?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
it's funny, john Hinckley's on YouTube and I got
banned.
So that's interesting, it'salways fun.
Yeah, there's like there's.
There's articles up like justif you just type it in, like the
bizarre connection between JohnHinckley Jr and the Bushes.
There's, it's tons of articles.
Bush's son had dinner planswith Hinckley before shooting.

(18:04):
Neil Bush, the son of VicePresident George Bush, had a
meeting with John Hinckley'sbrother yep, that's totally
insane.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
And then there was someone, uh, in 89 I believe it
was named rob bardo, right, hekilled an actress, rebecca
schaefer, and same thing, he wascarrying a copy of catcher in
the rye.
He just had this kind ofonslaught or pretty three hope
high profile murders orattempted murders, and it's all
being tracked back to catch her.

(18:37):
So he put something dark inthat book and again I've always
wondered how much of that waswas him or whatever he was
programmed to write, if therewas any programming after he was
hospitalized at nuremberg I'mjust looking stuff up as you
talk too.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
I'm going to see if I can find, like the last.
I remember reading the lastpage of the Catcher and the
Riots, really strange.
Let me see if I can find it.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well, he wrote a lot of strange things in addition to
Catcher, though, so the firstpiece that was actually
published in the New Yorker wascompletely strange as well, and
it was following World War IIand the title, if you want to
read.
It is called A Perfect Day fora Banana Fish, and it just goes
into this guy who's on vacationwith his wife and severely

(19:34):
depressed so he decides to blowhis brains out while she's
sleeping in the bed next to him,and people thought this was a
great story yeah, I'd always,I'd always wondered what the the
draw was and then I read it,probably in a.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
You know, like my mental state at the time, I was
obviously functioning.
But you know, like my mentalstate at the time, I was
obviously functioning, but youknow, gone through a lot.
This was like on the heels ofmy three tours overseas and
stuff and and culminating insome personal stuff.
And I remember reading at thetime and it was uh, it did not
provide any sort of like.

(20:14):
I wasn't drawn to that at thatpoint.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I'm not really sure either.
I mean outside of the, I meandiscussing subjects like that,
like someone on a vacation withtheir wife deciding to blow out
their their brains while shesleeps and sleeping, you know,
in the hotel next to him.
It's just very taboo, right.
It catches you off guard andmaybe there wasn't a whole lot

(20:40):
of writing styles like that atthe time, but I mean I would be
concerned with somebody writingthat way.
But he did it a lot.
Actually.
It was a theme in a lot of hisshort stories and he didn't
really publish.
He stopped publishing for thelongest period of time and
that's why people were, you know, kind of fed up with them.

(21:03):
After a few years of releasingcatcher, it's like, okay, you
gave us this, what else do youhave?
And he retreated into, you knowthis, this area in the
mountains, the white mountains,near the border of New Hampshire
and Vermont, and I think heinitially his intention was just
to run like a gas station there.
He retreated in a lot of ways,but he kept writing secretly,

(21:26):
and so you might've heardmention of these stories that
have never been published.
There were some short storiesthat mentioned them, but he
wrote actual books about thisfamily called the Glass family
and it's the same theme, it'sthe most bizarre, like setting

(21:48):
up of a story or a certain groupof characters.
There's like seven brothers andsisters and they're all geniuses
somehow and they participate onthis television program called
it's a Wise Child, on thistelevision program called it's a
Wise Child, and the eldestbrother, who's like the most
brilliant of all of them, forwhatever reason, he commits
suicide.
So this idea of suicide andkilling it's prevalent

(22:08):
throughout all of his works.
I mean he was a deeplydepressed person and again I
think back to that quote in thatletter he wrote I believe it
was his mom when he was servingand you know, digging his
foxholes down to cowardly depths.
You know you feel bad becausehe was suffering shell shock.

(22:28):
I mean even the little bit of,you know, background research I
was doing, I mean with hisjourney through World War Two.
It wasn't even like theysuffered the most casualties at
D-Day, it was after that.
I mean they would, they wouldlike, cross across certain paths
or fields and lose like 20 or30 people.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh yeah, and just hiding behind.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, Hiding behind trees hoping you just don't get
hit, I mean that would be aterrifying experience.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
I mean, d-day was June 1944, june 6th, and then
the war concluded, you know,with V-E Day on May 8th 1945.
So there was a lot of fightingin between.
You know, d-day was prettyhorrendous but there was a hot
war all the way to the end daywas pretty horrendous, but there

(23:20):
was.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
There's a hot war all the way to the end, right, and
there's some other interestingparts of that narrative with him
in world war ii um, I thinkyou've seen it.
Have you seen a midnight inparis?
Midnight in paris by woodyallen.
I think he actually took somedetails of salinger's life and
put it in the main character,owen wilson's character.
Because, if I remembercorrectly, ow Owen Wilson's

(23:40):
character.
Because, if I remember correctlyOwen Wilson's character, he was
a writer too, but he had neverwritten a book before, and so
while he was traveling to Pariswith his hoity-toity wife and
her family, he was in theprocess of writing this book.
And then he'd take those walksright and he'd get picked up and
transported to a different timeperiod full of writers that he
admired and, if you recall,ernest Hemingway was one of them

(24:01):
and the depiction of ErnestHemingway in that film is so
funny.
But he read Owen Wilson's bookor the draft he had at that time
and really admired it, and thatmeant a lot to Owen's character
.
Well, that actually happened toJD Salinger.
So after the liberation of Parisand all of the celebrating that

(24:21):
was going there, he actuallymet Ernest Hemingway and the
draft of Catcher he had at thetime.
He passed it off to him and gotfeedback and Ernest Hemingway
said he liked it or what was init at the time.
So it's an interesting detailAgain.
Just somebody again who's onlypublished a couple of short
stories really doesn't have aname for himself at that point

(24:45):
is able to, you know, hold thatmuch time with Ernest Hemingway
and for him to review the work.
Now, why Ernest liked it, Idon't know.
He might have just been nice.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
He might have just understood.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
There's if I say I don't like it, he might shoot
himself just something.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
There's a, there's an energy in the, in the story
that I found and maybe you haveto be in a certain mindset.
That always stuck with me and Istill have the copy that I
borrowed.
I took that from a friend ofmine that I was in combat with.
You know there was a lot of.
There was writers like GoreVidal came out of world war two

(25:28):
and had a a very anti-war slanthis whole life.
You know, after serving he wasin the Pacific and he wrote his
first novel.
So he's around the same sameage is, uh, jd, salinger and
hemingway.
He came out of world war one, hewas an ambulance driver right

(25:48):
you mentioned him being all theexpats there and and uh, uh, rod
serling, who wrote the twilightzone, was a paratrooper in the
pacific and he came out and hisserling's lessons I think he was

(26:11):
had had shell shock or whateveryou want to, his combat stress
and all I mean it was you knowanything about the pacific.
He was a paratrooper in thePacific, which you know.
A lot of those guys.
I mean they were fighting onthese islands and these Japanese
islands and you talk about likehorrendous warfare at least,
like if you're in Europe and yougo through and you go through a

(26:32):
French town and you are able tokick the Nazis out.
There's wine and food andpeople.
That's not how it was in thePacific.
I mean, it's just a series ofislands Like Douglas MacArthur
had this strategy of islandhopping and it would be like
places like Iwo Jima and stuffthat were just hellscapes and

(26:55):
guys would go blind fromdrinking like aftershave and
stuff, like they had no booze orthey had no.
There was no recreation, justwar, you know.
And so like you have uh serling, who I identify with so much.
That's why later in life I waslike I just gravitated towards
the twilight zone so much,because serling would lay out

(27:16):
these morality tales and I havea biography on him called the
Television's Last Angry man.
It's really good and it justtalks about his morality.
I don't get that from Salinger.
I don't get that same.
I get something else.
There's an underlying darkenergy in the Catcher in the Rye

(27:36):
and then it permeates into somuch of our assassin culture, as
we mentioned, pinkly uh and uh,mark david chapman, but there's
others.
I mean, in your research didyou find it's not just those two
, those are the most prominent.
But like that book pops up andyou could tie that to things

(28:00):
like Mind Control or MKUltra.
Maybe there's a combination ofwords in there or something that
people are picking up on.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, I don't know.
The other person, like Imentioned, that was higher
profile, was 89, and it wasRobert Bardo, and he killed the
actress um rebecca schaefer, andhe was carrying a copy of
catcher in the sky with him, uh,when he was apprehended.
Yet that the whole, his wholeum personality.

(28:31):
I mean he came from wealth.
Jd salinger did his.
His father was namedsolomonalinger and Solomon was
the son of a rabbi of LithuanianJewish descent, and Solomon was
an importer of cheeses andmeats, which I guess is pretty
unkosher but made a lot of money.
And his mother was named Marieand she actually had to change

(28:54):
her name before she could beaccepted into the family and
marry into it.
She actually had to change hername before she could be
accepted into the family andmarry into it, and so she
changed it to Mariam.
But he came from a lot of wealth.
Even after World War II, whilepeople were struggling to find
work other writers that heassociated with and played cards
with he was living in this poshapartment with his parents on

(29:15):
Park Avenue and so he almost hadthis way that he said he
detested the lifestyle but hebenefited a lot from it.
He would say he wasn'timpressed by the lifestyle.
But it kind of reminds me, orreminded me of that interaction
in the Aviator right when HowardHughes and the mom says we
don't care about money aroundhere, mr Hughes, and he goes

(29:38):
yeah, it's because you've alwayshad it.
You've always had it, excuse meand gets up and leaves.
Well, he kind of had thisattitude too and I think it
permeates into his writing.
I just think he comes across asa very angry person, and it's

(29:58):
not only in the short storieshe's written and how he
communicated with friends.
I mean, he lost a really closefriendship of his because his
friend worked underneath aneditor at one of these
publishing magazines and theywere accepting one of JD's works
and he said make sure nothing'schanged.
And he said I'll do what I can,but I don't have the final eyes

(30:21):
on anything.
The editor does that.
And he expressed to the editorhis friend did that.
You need even the punctuation,like he will go crazy if you
remove a comma from whatever hehas written.
Nothing can be changed withoutconveying it to him first and
getting his acceptance.
Well, the editor ended up, um,going along with all of that.

(30:43):
But he changed the name of theactual short story to something
like blue melody and jd salinger, like his friend, just felt
awful.
He said I don't know how I'mgonna to break this news to him.
So they went to their favoritehangout, had a drink.
He told them and he said JDjust turned like this bright red
and just said basically you'redead to me and left and never

(31:07):
talked to him again and Iremember watching an interview
with his friend discussing itand he was almost on the verge
of tears.
So people were really expendableto him.
So he had that arrogance to himthat you tend to get from those
sort of posh lifestyles, and Imean we were talking before the
program about this.
I mean, the way he treatedyoung women wasn't very nice

(31:28):
either.
He had an affinity for, like,really young girls there was,
yeah, so you want to talk tothat.
So after the war he met thisone girl named Jean Miller who
in her defense she really saidnothing but nice things about

(31:50):
him.
But she did mention somedetails about how he, salinger,
actually viewed his work and hethought it was ordained by God.
But she was the one who reallysuggested that the process of
him riding catcher stripped awaylayers of his soul and made him
a more degenerate kind ofdepressed person.
But he met her in Daytona Beachwhen he was on vacation and she

(32:14):
was 14.
And so the entire like week anda half Jean was there with her
family.
He was taking her on walks onthe beach, eating, you know,
feeding the seagulls popcorn,eating ice cream, and said
before she was going to departthat day hey, you know, I'd
really like to kiss you but Ican't.
He was about 30 at the time, soshe was 14.
So he later wrote a storycalled For Esma, with love and

(32:38):
squalor, which was about this,this sergeant names.
I think his name was Sergeant Xand he was about to actually
enter into World War Two, but hewasn't on the front lines yet.
He was in a tea shop in Englandand in the short story it
describes his mind teeteringlike on the brink of, you know,

(32:58):
erupting in some way, and kindof compared it to like luggage
teetering, you know, as you hitturbulence on an airplane.
So he meets this girl who's 12years old and he's trying to
explain it to her and it kind ofkind of reminded me of that
scene in Once Upon a Time inHollywood.

(33:19):
You remember, when he's on theporch and he's having all those
alcohol withdrawals and can'tremember his lines.
And he's talking to that young,pretty actress and she's like
what are you reading?
And he's talking about thatstory of the Bronco Buster with
Easy Breezy and just about tocry.
She's like it's okay, easyBreezy will be fine, you'll find

(33:40):
out.
And he goes well, give it 10years and you'll be living it.
And she goes what?
So, anyways, this Sergeant X isconfiding in a similar way with
this 12 year old girl, but whatshe says to him at the end of
the novel that he was writingafter he met gene is so
revealing to me.
The girl tells sergeant x to besure to return with all of his

(34:04):
faculties, and it spells it outlike f-a-c-u-l-t-i-e-s in in the
short story.
And so, yeah, you could thinkof faculties as arms and legs,
but you, you know, when someonetalks about a faculty, they're
already thinking of somethingelse, right?
So I don't know, there was thissexual energy associated with

(34:27):
it, at least that's what Ipicked up on.
So he kept in communicationwith Jean Miller and, right,
when she turned 18, like, hetook her to New York and she was
a virgin and she wasn't afterthat and he just stopped talking
to her and he did this with alot of other women, like his
first wife was 19, clairedouglas, before the war, there

(34:49):
was a girl named una o'neill.
Her father was this guy namedeugene o'neill, who was who is
the only only Nobel Prizewinning dramatist and she used
to be pictured in the Stork Clubdrinking milk and they were
dating before he went to war andhe was 25.
When he went to war she was 16.
And she ended up moving to LAbeing in a Charlie Chaplin film

(35:11):
and he married her when sheturned 18, and he was 53.
But he did this a lot withgirls, so he had this kind of
garvin variety type reallypretty smart girls, but very
young, who really admired himand then once they kind of
developed and became mature andthat admiration started to
teeter a little bit, he just gotrid of them yeah, there's a

(35:33):
spirit in the book that you getfrom Holden Caulfield.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
It's like a suspended maturity, arrested development
kind of thing.
There's something in that aswell, like the pressure of
manhood or responsibility is toomuch and he'd rather just be an
outlier.
He'd rather just be an outlier.
And then if you look and thisis just me by memory, but you

(36:01):
know, he, I think he goes to NewYork in the book and then he
gets a prostitute and she likewears a green dress.
And so you fast forward, likeMark David Chapman, like
recreates would, before he killsJohn Lennon, like he, he orders
up like an escort with the sameand asked for the same you know

(36:26):
green dress and the type andall of that.
And then, if I, if memoryserves me as well, you may be
able to back me up on this afterMark David Chapman shoots linen
, he just sits down and startsreading the catcher in the rye.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Right.
He asked the cops where it wasafterwards too, Like he needed
to be close to it.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
Just like you were describing with Mel Gibson.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
That's why they wrote I think it was written into the
film that way.
But there's something to thatand it's almost like it's an
operating manual or somethingLike if you're very sick, you
know.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to what you're saying
about this kind of Peter Panphilosophy of never having to
grow up, because the last girlthat was younger that he had a
relationship with was thiswriter.
She was a young writer, hername was Joyce Maynard and she
was 18.
And again, just that gardenvariety really admired him
because he would write lettersto these girls randomly, and she

(37:35):
later found out that he didthis with everybody.
In fact, the last person hemarried, colleen O'Neill I think
.
He married in 88, and he diedin 2010.
They stayed married.
All that time he did the samething he was courting these
young girls.
2010,.
They stayed married.
All that time he did the samething he was courting these
young girls.
But anyway, she ended up movingin with him and he had this very

(37:57):
regimented schedule about, youknow, when they were going.
He was a Hindu.
He was a lot of things.
He had like a giant statue ofBuddha in his little compound,
but they would do some sort ofbreathing exercises, meditation,
and then it was just steadfastwriting.
But he also liked to watch oldmovies and his favorite movie,
according to her, was this movieI'd never heard of.
It was called Lost Horizon andit is about a place these people

(38:18):
would go and never grow old,and that was something,
according to her, that theywatched all the time and it was
his favorite.
So there's something in hispsychology that I don't know.
It impeded his ability to likegrow up, and so he was always
attracted to these young women.
And again, gene millard neversaid he did anything

(38:40):
inappropriate until he was 18.
But you know, as soon as I meanthat's kind of shitty, right, I
mean I mean she's a virgin, andthen after that you know I
don't like you anymore.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
It's almost like he's grooming, yes, and then once it
hits a certain, it's kind oflike you hear about these actors
and stuff, big wigs, you know,like DiCaprio, yeah, dicaprio.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Didn't Ricky Gervais have like a?
He had some joke about thatwhen he hosted about something.
You know, something that wasvery young and he mentioned
still too old for LeonardoDiCaprio.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Right, you see that, you see that as something in
entertainment and others likeit's.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
It's pervasive and and others like it's uh, it's
pervasive, yeah, it's verypredatory.
Um so again, she didn't reallyspeak ill of him but it was just
a really crappy thing to do tosomebody, especially that young,
but it was a common theme inhis life.
But he, he was a weird guy.

(39:50):
I mean he locked himself up.
He didn't even do interviewsfor the longest period of time.
I think his last interview,until 1974, was something like
in the early 1950s and he justrandomly called this journalist
who worked for the San FranBureau.
Her name was Lacey Fosberg, sheused to work at, I think, the
New York Times and was on thepolice beat.

(40:11):
And she answered the phone andhe just said this is a man
called Selinger and the reasonhe was calling her was because
at the time there was thispirated selection of short
stories that were being sold andthey were his short stories
that he never wanted to bepublished that way, and so he
was raising awareness of that.

(40:33):
And what was so weird to meabout that is after she
published her article about theconversation, because she
naturally asked like what areyou up to these days?
And he's like I'm alwayswriting, I'm writing 10 hours a
day, but he just hadn'tpublished anything around that
time.
But the FBI immediately gotinvolved after that conversation

(40:54):
and that that pirated selectionof short stories.
They were just nowhere to befound after that.
So how did he carry so muchweight that, not even using a
lawsuit, he could get the FBIinvolved?
That doesn't make sense to me,unless he was complicit in some
other activities, right?

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, but once you're in in in intelligence, that
doesn't make sense to me, unlesshe was complicit in some other
activities.
Right files showed that LeeHarvey Oswald was had
connections to intelligence,which anybody you know, like our

(41:36):
friend Don Jeffries, has beenresearching this his entire
adult life has already knownthat.
You just couldn't prove it.
There wasn't like definitiveevidence other than like, when
they went in to get Lee HarveyOswald's belongings he had a
camera that only operatives weregiven in the 1950s.

(41:57):
It wasn't something that wasmass produced.
If you were in a certainintelligence apparatus, as a
matter of fact, I just foundthis as you were speaking.
This is off of just some linksI found on rareus.
It had the infamous Lee HarveyOswald.
The man charged with JFK'smurder also had connections to
this book.
In a raid of his Dallasapartment following the

(42:18):
assassination, catcher in theRye, along with other books like
George Orwell's Animal Farm andAdolf Hitler's Mein Kampf were
found.
And this also mentions, youknow, lee Harvey Oswald's, not
not that I think Lee HarveyOswald is the lone shooter, but
he definitely had Trump doesthat's so unfortunate so in Fort

(42:39):
Worth?
Well, yeah, that's a whole.
That's a whole other pair oftruth.
I don't even understand that.
I watched Trump, live on airback in 2016 or so, call out Ted
Cruz's dad for being associatedwith Lee Harvey Oswald.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
And I was like whoa, like that was a.
I'd never seen anything likethat and we're in a completely
different reality now, but I was.
This says a psychologicalassessment conducted from a
short stint he spent this is leeharvey oswald.
That he spent in a juvenilereformatory due to consistent

(43:17):
truancy from school revealed histendency for vivid fantasy life
.
So that's another like thepeter pan phenomenon of like the
suspended.
Know, like they, they pickthese people, like if you look
at Hinckley or you look at MarkDavid Chapman, these aren't
winners.

(43:37):
You know, like this isn't likeit's, it's a very it's.
Or any of the school shooters,or was it?
Who was the?
I'm thinking of Dylanylanclebold, the people from
columbine there was, you know,outliers and losers suspended.
You know, in this weird placebetween being a boy and being a

(43:59):
man, like they had that as well.
Yeah, adam lanza, that was adam.
If you look at adam lanza fromfrom the sandy hook thing, whoa,
you almost alien, like uh, butnowhere near being a man.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
There's, there's something, there's something to
that yeah it's almost like aprimer for it yeah, they're,
that's what I was about to say.
It's like they're primed incertain ways to be receptive
yeah, uh, I'm just.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
I'm gonna read a little bit from this article.
Mark David Chapman and JohnHinckley Jr behaved so strangely
once killing their target.
Chapman was found reading thebook and Hinckley was still
trying to shoot the gun that hehad emptied of bullets.
Yeah, he was still trying toshoot it.
Most assassins killing peopleof such high stature don't kill

(44:49):
their targets so publicly orstick around at the scene of the
crime.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
It's like the Manchurian candidate.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
And people were drawn .
I mean, there are so manyaccounts of people driving
across country after readingthat book to seek him out
because there are rumbles thathe operated some gas station in
the white mountains and peoplewould actually find out where he
lived, even though locals triedto guard him from it because it

(45:19):
became so, so prevalent.
They would make contact withhim and bring all their troubles
.
There's this one interactionwhere I think Salinger is asking
the kid, like you know, whatare you doing here?
And the kid responded I hopeyou could tell me that, which is
a really weird response.
And I think Salinger respondedsomething like you know, I'm not

(45:42):
a psychiatrist, you know, haveyou been medically evaluated?
I might pose difficultquestions but I don't pretend to
have the answers.
But regardless of all of that,that happened a lot.
Evaluated, I might posedifficult questions but I don't
pretend to have the answers.
But regardless of all of that,that happened a lot.
And I remembered I watchedsomething years ago and it was
highlighting John Lennon.
People would do that to JohnLennon.
They would just show up to hishouse and ask him about his

(46:06):
lyrics.
I remember seeing a recordingof one of it and he was like
sometimes I just play with words.
They don't even mean anything.
Yeah, but in both of thosecases, which are connected right
through the murder of JohnLennon, that was happening to
them, there was something thateach of those guys was writing
that was drawing people to themlike a giant magnet, and that's

(46:26):
what I don't understand.
That's where the conspiratorialside of me starts saying okay,
well, are they planting patternsin the words or the phrasing,
or something like that?
Are there certain triggers thatthey're laying out in their art
?

Speaker 1 (46:43):
I don't know just more from this article that
popped up.
It's some of the same themesthat you hit on, and saying that
the novel some people believeit to be autobiographical can be
seen.
The author is talking about hisown experience in the army,
which is where they started thewhole book.

(47:05):
Jd Salinger spent a year in thearmy in 1942.
It consisted of two phases.
Initially, his job was tointerrogate captured Nazis.
With the CounterintelligenceCorps, an intelligence sector
responsible for providingsecurity for military
installations and staging areas,located enemy agents and acted
to the counter stay-behindnetworks.

(47:27):
They also provided training tocombat units in security,
censorship, the seizure ofdocuments and the dangers of
booby traps.
Towards the end of the year,the CIC joined Operation
Paperclip.
This was a tight-lippedoperation that involved the US
recruiting over 1,600 Naziscientists, engineers and

(47:51):
technicians to help win the racewith the Soviet Union during
the Cold War.
Well, so much came out of that.
Like that's where you get theidea of the Fourth Reich and the
you know so many have pointedout.
Like you, look at StanleyKubrick's work, you know Dr

(48:14):
Strangelove, and like you and Ihave watched that many times, my
Fiora it's like Peter Sellertrying not to do the Nazi salute
.
You know, and, but that wasreal.
You know, like they brought in,you know, the space program and
the military, industrial andintelligence fluoride in the
water mind control.

(48:36):
That's when you get the birthof the CIA in 1947, along with
the Air Force and the NSA, andfollowing Roswell, that's the
birth of the National SecurityState.
But it's really the birth ofwhat so many researchers, people
like Jim Mars, have pointed outis the birth of the Fourth
Reich.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Right.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
The fusion of that.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
And that wasn't really known at the time.
I mean, when Kubrick releasedDr Strangelove, that was 64.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
Hold on a second.
Is that Hinckley's country song?
Yeah, it's Hinckley.
I was 64.
Hold on a sec.
I don't want to my phone.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Is that Hinkley's country song?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, it's Hinkley.
Can you believe it?
I just reached over my phoneand started playing, so that's
pretty interesting.
I didn't even touch it.
So yeah, it must be.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Even the imagery right of Catcher in the Rye and
how that book gets its name.
It's about this group ofchildren, like thousands of
children, right in this field ofrye, and they're headed for a
cliff and he's trying to savethem from that imminent doom.
I mean, that's just weirdimagery to me.
You know, it again conjures upthis idea of grooming intellect

(49:49):
in some way.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
There's just so much here Looking at.
I mean, we get the major themeswith Hinkley and Chapman, but
it really it permeates andthere's a whole subculture.
You talked about thedocumentary Salinger.
I watched that about thedocumentary Salinger I watched
that about the time I wasrunning for Congress I remember

(50:14):
it was on Netflix or somethingand I watched it a couple of
times.
I was always fascinated withSalinger, just like he's such a
recluse.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
And you talk about living in the white mountains,
right, and uh, that guy tryingto track him down and just have
a face-to-face with him beforehe died yeah, he thought he was
owed it because he read the bookand this guy was married, he
had, like children and he wasgoing through this crisis, I
think in his early 30s.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's.

(50:49):
It's all very strange and thething that was really
interesting about thatdocumentary it's a little long
but it has a lot of interestingdetails.
But they mentioned there are alot of books to be published
that are in his literary trust.
Because he had this huge vault.
Even that girl, joyce Maynard,the last one before he he
married his um, his last wife,when she was living with him.

(51:12):
She would see him access thevault and put things in it but
didn't really get a glimpse ofwhat was in there.
But in his trust there's allsorts of books that are still
released, to be published and Ithink his son, matt, is
overseeing that.
But there's one book that'sabout a counterintelligence
agent's diary in World War II.
There's another one about aWorld War II love story where

(51:35):
the main character meetssomebody and they have this
telepathic communication whichagain he attested that he and
his first wife, sylvia, had theNazi.
And then there's a religioustext and a complete chronology
of the glass family and he whatwas so interesting to me about
the glass family is he startedwriting about the glass family

(51:56):
in his little bunker.
You know he'd escape for weeksat a time in his little bunker
and tell his wife.
He didn't want to be disturbed.
But he really started writingabout the the glass family in 55
, which was the same year his,his daughter, was born.
So there's this divergence.
He had like two families thatwere created in 55, but the one

(52:17):
he prioritized was his, made upone.
That's all strange, but I wouldlike to see what these books
are about, especially thecounterintelligence agents diary
and then the World war ii lovestory.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
Those sound strange well, there's definitely a theme
.
You look in the some of the,they've called it the, the bible
of teenage angst, which isthat's what the catcher in the
rye is.
It's like just highlightingthat but keeping you in that
state of not fitting in andbeing an outlier Right.

(52:54):
There's something to that.
It really hearkens and screamsto me like mental illness.
That's what I felt like when Ifinished the book.
I was like this is just not.
I probably read it the worstpossible time I could have read
it at, but it stuck with mebecause I but I, I didn't, I
didn't need to have a copy of itwith me at all times.

(53:16):
I never felt like.
I never went back to it andread it again.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
I never thought it was you should have put like
three in the background wearinga cat from the right it had no
effect on me.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
It hasn't really affected me.
Hold on, I have to read achapter before we can go live.
There's a lot to unpack.
There's something with him,there's something in the book,
and that's why I thought itwould be at least a short

(53:51):
episode here on Paratrooper,just to kind of unpack the
history and who this guy was andthe strangeness of it.
And sometimes these type ofepisodes will lead the audience.
If you listen to it, you'relike I might want to know more
and dig into it, because it'sinteresting.
Yeah, and it drove people tolove this book so much.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, and it all butts up right against you know
MKUltra Jolly West right.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
That documentary Chaos just came out on Netflix,
if anybody wants to watch it.
It's loosely based on TomO'Neill's book, but I mean, I
can't help but think there'ssome sort of MKUldra you know
black magic going on here, justwith all the details of his war
experience and thehospitalization and again

(54:42):
through the entire arc of histenure in the army and
counterintelligence and thenlater Operation operation
paperclip.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
He was still writing the book, so all those
activities were influencing hispsyche, whether he knew it or
not, maybe well, it definitelyhad made its mark, especially in
the 20th century and in thelore of assassination and
conspiracy and mind control,control.
It will forever be there, ifyou know anything about this

(55:10):
genre, and it just hangs there.
It's an enigma.
What is in it that is inspiring?
I guess the interpreter youknow like if you have a mind
that is susceptible to whateverthat is, it clearly infects it,

(55:32):
and if not, then it's just abook to you.
But I don't know of any otherwork like this.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
No.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
Like you could say you know, if you're a white
supremacist or you know somesort of like neo-Nazi or
something, then it would be likeMein Kampf or something.
But you don't, even that's notusually a literate thing.
It's like it's not usuallypeople carrying around books.
This is something else, likeyou have to go find it.
You're looking for it or itfinds you in some way, and then

(56:02):
I don't know, it's uh, there's,there's, there's a, there's a
code in it or something that Ithink maybe it unlocks certain
things in certain personalitiesand that's why they put it out
there.
Or maybe just framing the bookas a as, uh, you know, you, like
Hinkley, admired Mark DavidChapman, but where did Mark

(56:25):
David Chapman get his influence?
Right, you know?

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Um and I can't think of many people, let alone
authors, who encourage one wayor another so many others to
make a Mecca of sorts to yourtrip to Mecca to see them.
Right, this pilgrimage to gosee JD Salinger, that's just so
bizarre that even those peopledidn't, you know, go off the

(56:51):
cliff, they were still pushed tothe point where I need to see
this guy, I need to talk withhim about this writing, about
this work.
That is so bizarre.
I mean again, I've seen it withJohn Lennon, but who else I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
I'll never forget watching that as a kid I was 17
watching gibson.
Had to go in and get that copyof the catcher in the rye.
And then you find out thatmovie.
You know it's uh, based on himbeing an mk ultra being
experimented on, you know, asbeing a manchurian candidate,
like he was right about theconspiracies, because he was

(57:30):
part of one.
You know his, his.
You know his interactions withuh.
Uh, I forget the actor's nameuh, he played john luke bickard
on uh, on on star trek.
You know um, but that's wherehe gets.
You know he's being trained,you know to to.
That's where he gets.
You know he's being trained,you know, to be an assassin and

(57:53):
he has all these subconsciousstarts to manifest that like in
his own life and he's completelyparanoid, but for a reason.
You know Patrick Stewart's theguy's name.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, the actor.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
But well, it's fascinating, fascinating.
Well, it's a fun episode, so Ido.
You have any other, anythingelse you want to throw out there
, any other notes or stuff thatyou found when you were doing
your magnificent research there?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
no, those were all the high points.
Um, you mentioned to me, youknow, a couple of days ago about
about Argentina declassifying abunch of stuff.
I didn't know if you wanted tomention that we were
contemplating doing someepisodes on that material and
related.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Yeah, we just happened to be talking because
I'd like to do these type ofepisodes where it's just good
conversation and you knowthere's research and we actually
can show source material.
But I was mentioning I foundthis book from the 70s about
this journalist.
It's published by SimonSchuster, where he's talking to

(59:04):
Martin Bormann like in the 70sand Martin Bormann was Hitler's
second in command.
I mean, he rerouted all of thecorporations and wealth and
holdings of the Nazi empire andof course he had the rat lines
and other things, like they fledto South America and possibly

(59:28):
to Antarctica at NewSchwabenland and all that stuff,
like when World War II ended.
But yeah, there's a book calledAftermath that I found at a
used bookstore and I'm like whydidn't I ever know about this?
I think Jim Mars mentioned itin the Fourth Reich and I have
to go back to my notes on that.
But this kind of ties togetherwith that, because it's a series
of events together with that.

(59:52):
Because it's a series of events, you know, like you have, the
united states didn't haveespecially the rule by, and
we're ruled by, intelligence andbanking after world war ii and,
like I mentioned, the nscdocument 68 and that was the
birth of the CentralIntelligence Agency and NSA and
other things like the Air Force,and that's what you get in 1947

(01:00:13):
.
A lot of that is directlylinked to Operation Paperclip
and Operation Paperclip againlinked to Salinger.
So there's probably somethinghere, because everything the
reality that we understandpost-World War II and you know
you had it was the late 50s ormid-50s, if memory serves me

(01:00:37):
that you get Operation Midnight,climax and then MKUltra and you
talk about, you know, jollyWest and Sidney Gottlieb.
You know who were these you, youknow psychiatrists, doctor,
quote whatever the, whatevernomenclature you want to give
them uh, that were withintelligence, creating mind

(01:00:59):
control programs and uh, usinglsd and other things, and it's
it's a weird rabbit hole butit's um, it definitely has its
links to the aftermath end ofworld war two and uh, so much of
our culture does too.
So this, I think, the catcherin the rye, is one of those um,

(01:01:20):
it's a product of that and aproduct of war and it's
something that would have neverexisted, you know, had America
first triumph.
And and somebody you know uhgotten wind that fdr was uh
setting our, our navy, up to beattacked for harbor.

(01:01:40):
Like, if that had not, if thathad been exposed like we'd have
a completely different reality.
But you know, the united statesis definitely and we had a
different path.
So, um, a lot of these thingsare byproducts of that so
interesting history to dive intoif you want to understand the
past, and I think these thingshave linkage.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Seems as though they weretrying to infiltrate the hippie
anti-war movement, right?
That's why Joe West set upthose offices in San Francisco.

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
Yeah, we definitely got to dig into that.
I've been reading about thatfor years and there's a lot to
unpack there.
But definitely Salinger weirdand one of those things and you
know there's a lot to unpack andyou know it can be some
interesting research.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Yeah, I hope we didn't bash him too much.
I mean, I to a certain extent Ifeel bad for him and you know
the shell shock and all that hadto.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Be very real and unsettling, but very strange
well, I mean it is, but you cango different ways with it.
You can be a rod serling or youcan be a Salinger, that's true.
Or you can be a Vidal GoreVidal.
You know the people call himthe gay Pat Buchanan.

(01:02:57):
He was very much America firstand all that stuff, just very
left wing with it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
I love that documentary.
What was it called?
Best of Enemies?
No.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Best of Enemies.
Yeah, yeah, was it called?
Best of Enemies?
No, best of.
Enemies yeah, yeah, withWilliam F Buckley and Vidal.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Yeah, he took them to task.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
And Buckley.
You know Buckley was the samegeneration as Vidal.
We should do a show on thosetwo, because I know a pretty
great deal about it.
I was studying it for years andBuckley had ties to
intelligence.
The entire modern conservativemovement, along with people like
Timothy Leary from the LSDmovement and Gloria Steinem from

(01:03:38):
feminism all were on the CIApayroll Right.
Vidal wasn't, though.
The people that I like that Ifind that I go back to and read
their essays and read theirbooks and things that definitely
have that.
I find that I go back to andread their essays and read their
books and things thatdefinitely have that slant of
being open-minded for peace orreason and other things, and

(01:03:59):
Vidal strikes the chord with meon that Not all things, but and
Serling for his morality talesand the Twilight Zone and other
things, but Salinger, you know,uh, it was one and done.
I read it one time and Ithought this is I don't get the
appeal, but I think you have tohave a certain you know it's
like people that are, you know,demon possessed, like maybe you

(01:04:22):
just open to it, you know, andthere's something in the work
that is off.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
So well.
Thank you for doing all you do,Mr Anderson, for your
magnificent.
That's why I say it's yourbrain.
You brought your brain and laidthis out for everybody and I
know you don't want to be foundand you're going to.
You know you're out in Taiwanright now.
How does it feel to be outthere?
You feel like the Chinese aregoing to invade.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
We're all a little unsettled by the tariffs, but
we'll see what comes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Paratrooper got tariff 25 percent.
That's why we hadn't put a showout in a few weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Yeah, crazy, crazy times.
But appreciate you being here,brother.
I want to remind the audienceif you like the episodes, please
go give us a five-star review.
Uh, over on uh Apple and uh,the Arterburn radio transmission
, also once a week live.
Uh, we put that up on thischannel as well.
So, you know, spread thataround.
We're we're hidden by thealgorithms, but, uh, you know,

(01:05:31):
these are our, our shows are.
You know the conversations thatmr anderson I have?
We'll have some great guests.
We have don jeffries coming up.
We're gonna go over americanmemory hole, which is a great
book, and I'm catching up onthat now, and then, uh, we'll
dive into a series on um, on thefourth reich and operation
paperclip, and some of that.

(01:05:52):
As soon as I told Mr Andersonabout hey, let's do this book on
aftermath, literally the nextday the government of Argentina
released documents on their tiesto the Nazis post-World War II
and the rat lines.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
So there's a lot to unpack there, yeah that'll be a
lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Yeah, we'll definitely have some fun.
All right, folks, we appreciateyou.
Yeah, give us a review, sharethe links and come back next
time for episode number 37 withthe legendary Donald Jeffries.
You guys take care of eachother in the information war.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Be a paratrooper.