#37 Paratruther- The American Memory Hole with Donald Jeffries

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, episode number 37 of
Paratruther.
I am your host, one of yourhosts, Tony Arterburn.
I'm joined by Mr Anderson and,on loan from the Smithsonian,
his brain.
Thank you for transitioning notyour sex, but transitioning
your reality back over here toParatruther, Mr Anderson.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh, I thought you were the Smithsonian.
I thought you were talkingabout Don or something.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
No, I was talking about your brain.
I was like are you?

Speaker 2 (00:32):
being an ageist Tony.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
No, don's an American treasure.
I think it's beyond.
We don't want him hidden awaylike the nine-foot-tall
red-haired giants that werefound in the Grand Canyon.
We don't want anything likethat to happen to Don, but with
you.
I was debating this earlier.
Beans and I went out to getsome lunch and I thought should
I say he's on loan from Ripley's, believe it or Not, or just the

(00:57):
Smithsonian?
I decided the Smithsonian.
So thank you, welcome back inyour brain, sir.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh, thank you, I miss Ripley's.
Believe it or not, I used to gothere as a kid.
They had one tied to a waxmuseum.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, the one in San Antonio was magnificent.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I don't think it's still there.
Can you still put?

Speaker 3 (01:21):
five of those pool balls in your mouth, Tony.
I used to read the comic stripwhen they used to have the
Sunday comics, which were athing back then.
Ripley's Believe it or Not, wasalways a highlight.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, those are the bygone days of that sort of
publication.
They don't have thosepublications anymore.
You know there's those andyou've talked about it too, don,
let me introduce Don first,before we start doing a podcast,

(01:52):
because I'm so used to talkingto don.
But, uh, don jeffries, authorof hidden history, crimes and
cover-ups in american politics1776 1963, your novel, the
unreels, survival of the richestamerican memory hall, oh and uh
, uh, unborrowed fame, anothergreat book I need to.
I want to ask you somethingwhen we're done with the show,
uh, about that book.
Um, donald jeffries, one of mymentors, an american treasure,
uh, co-host of america,unplugged host of I protest with

(02:14):
donald jeffries and many, manyother projects and, of course,
the new book, american memoryhole.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Welcome back to paratrooper don oh, it's always
a pleasure, tony.
You're a delightful host.
It's very easy talking with you.
As you know, we can talk aboutjust about anything.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Well, we certainly can, and we do, by the way.
Well, I want to jump into this.
I've planned on having you onthe show since you released this
book and this is like acompanion book to Hidden History
and one of the books that I goback to to refresh myself, you
know, as far as my mind, andcontinuing to integrate the

(02:53):
history, especially that you'velaid out through your life's
work, to help me understand thecurrent reality.
But American Memory Hole is,you know, from JFK assassination
9-11, joe McCarthy, all these,just again, things that you've
talked about in previous booksbut really expanded on, and I
wanted to get your take on whatprompted this and maybe what

(03:16):
comes next and some of thehighlights.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Well, thanks for always the kind words, but this
is kind of a.
It's basically the third volumeof Hidden History.
You know, skyhorse didn't wantto call Crimes and Cover-Ups
Hidden History 2, but I wantedto I don't know why and I wanted
to call this Hidden History 3,and they didn't want to.
So they obviously don't likethe numbers in there.
But that's what it is, and it'sa combination of Hidden History

(03:41):
and Crimes and Cover-Ups,because Crimes and Cover-Ups was
the prequel to Hidden History.
Hidden History went from the JFKassassination up through the
Obama years.
I mean, donald Trump's namedoesn't appear because he hadn't
entered politics yet.
That's how quickly he's takenover.
As you're talking about 10years.
He's taken over the world.
He was so irrelevant.
You know I wasn't evenmentioning him back then.
And you have the.

(04:01):
Crimes and Cover-Ups took theearlier period, from the
beginning of the Republic, thewar for independence, all the
way through the 1950s, and sothis book combines both.
So we go back to the, we talk alittle bit more about the war.
We talk about the judicialreview, which you know you've
heard me talk a lot about that.
I stress that a lot because Ithink it's very important now.

(04:22):
So we talk about Jefferson'sfight against the judicial
review at the dawn of theRepublic.
More about that.
I stress that a lot because Ithink it's very important now we
talk about Jefferson's fightagainst judicial review at the
dawn of the republic.
More about Lincoln.
We went into the war with Mexicoand Polk Not that I would ever
be unfair to Lincoln because Ithink I've been very honest
about his tyranny but Polkprobably deserves the credit, I
think, for the firstoverstepping the balance.
And we have lots of incidentsin there how the troops are

(04:45):
acting pretty much like theywould act under Sherman and
Sheridan and Grant, so they werealready kind of committing
atrocities.
There's a couple unreportedIndian atrocities in there and
you know, peter C Koch did sucha great job helping me to
research this and Chris Graveswas great on the later aspects
of NIDIL because we did a lotmore in Oklahoma City 9-11, jfk

(05:05):
Jr he was very, you know,indispensable that stuff.
So it combines both aspects ofit.
And, as you mentioned, joeMcCarthy, we do a lot more there
to try to restore hisreputation and we, you know,
blast FDR a little bit more tooand he should be credited with
advancing, you know, inventingcancel culture, among other
things.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
It's funny you mentioned and I'm doing this off
the cuff, but years ago Iwatched an interview with Jeb
Bush and he goes, you know, andI want to say I'm right on this,
I'm pretty sure I am.
He says you know, I'm relatedto James K Polk.
He's like that's one of myancestors, and I thought well of
course not yeah sure.

(05:46):
Credit to Lincoln for theMexican-American War.
It cost him his term inCongress.
He was a one-term congressman,if I'm not mistaken.
Because of that, he lost.
Because of his opposition.
He wanted a bill passed throughCongress to mark the spot where

(06:06):
the Mexican army had fired onAmericans.
He wanted to actually to throwthem to prove it, or something
like that.
Right.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, lincoln, lincoln, hiscomments on that and he was, he
was, you know, very right to beopposed to that Should have come
back to haunt him 20 yearslater, or less than 20 years
later, and when you know he, hehad a, you know, certainly an
even more egregious situationwhere you had states actually
wanting to leave the union,which they should have been able

(06:30):
to do because, again, we werefounded on the concept of
consent of the government andthese southern states no longer
consented.
So, lincoln, you know, hebasically went back on
everything he said about the warwith Mexico, and I guess he
didn't sense the irony.
But he's hardly the firstpolitician to do that.
As you know, we're, we see thatall the time today, with Trump
and the Democrats, I mean, theyjust shamelessly, without

(06:51):
blushing, you know, justliterally say the same thing.
They were criticizing, you know, the week before, or something.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Another figure that was opposed to that war, the
Mexican American war, was Grant.
He was in it, he really testedit.
And then both of those figurescoming together in the 1860s to
become this tyrannical force tocommand that army, the Army of
Northern Aggression.
That's a far leap from wherethey were.

(07:20):
Most people don't know that.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I love Don's books because there was always aspects
and details I never knew thatare just really so interesting.
I never forget, but I didn'tknow about Frank Key Howard and
what Lincoln did to him.
Can you explain that?

Speaker 3 (07:36):
I think a lot, yeah, well, yeah, I think very few
Americans know that, but everytime you hear the Star-Spangled
Banner, and every time ColinKaepernick or somebody doesn't
kneel for it, remember Frank EHoward.
This is Francis Scott Key'sgrandson.
I think he was a newspapereditor, but he did something.
He was opposed to Lincoln'spolicies as anybody with any
common sense were.

(07:56):
The guy suspended the writ ofhabeas corpus.
He shut down over 200newspapers.
Frank E Howard, he wasn't reallyan american icon.
I guess maybe they'd alreadyforgotten who he was, but um, he
was.
He was, uh, locked up likeuntold thousands of others in
northern as well, we don't knowhow many thrown into a makeshift

(08:17):
prison, I think january 6th,but without, you know, without,
well, they didn't have any dueprocess either.
So it's not that much different.
But you know at least, at leastbiden didn't.
You know, without well, theydidn't have any due process
either.
So it's not that much different.
But you know at least, at leastBiden didn't, you know,
officially suspend the rent ofHades Corpus like Lincoln did,
but same kind of thing.
Throw him in there withoutcharges, and he was thrown into
Fort McKendree of all places,and that's the great historical.

(08:39):
And I don't know if Lincoln.
Hey, maybe Lincoln did it onpurpose, I don't know.
Maybe he said do that.
You know who knows Lincoln.
You know loves to tell jokesand maybe thought it was funny,
but you know that's whereFrancis Scott Key wrote the
Star-Spangled Banner.
You know he wrote it while youknow from Fort McHenry Prison,
so as the flag flew over theprison.

(08:59):
So probably not one in a millionAmericans would know that story
and Probably not one in amillion Americans would know
that story.
And so that's why I think mybooks are valuable, because it
really is deep, hidden history.
I mean, some of these things Ididn't know.
I discovered that readingAmerican Bastille or one of the

(09:20):
books that were written in the1870s or so about Lincoln's
tyrannical policies that wereallowed to be published then.
But yeah, just disgraceful whathappened to him.
And it should be.
But again, already by then youcould see when Lincoln rewrote.
He rewrote the history booksbecause you had new heroes.
When Lincoln was born, suddenlyLincoln and Grant and all these
horrible people became the newheroes, and later, especially
conservative types would equateLincoln with Jefferson and

(09:42):
Washington, which is ridiculousbecause the founding fathers
except for Hamilton, he probablywould have loved them because
we know how he is as a blackrapper on Broadway, the banker's
favorite.
But everyone else would havehated him and Jefferson
definitely would have despisedhim, because Lincoln despised
Jefferson.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Right, even Ulysses S Grant's wife, right, didn't she
refuse to give up her slaveafter the war?

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Yeah, yeah, and Grant made one of the great comments
of all time.
It's so hard to find good help.
You can hear Thurston B Howefrom Gilligan's Island saying
it's so hard to find good help.
You know, make sure the boy'ssaying that.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
There's a Family Guy snippet Tony reminded me of
about that.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Oh yeah, they make fun of Lincoln.
It's on Family Guy and theirneighbors.
You know it's like you're moredisappointed than Lincoln's
neighbor and Lincoln stepsoutside and he puts on his hat
and his neighbors looking at himcrossways and his yard's all
grown up and Lincoln says youought to get that cut or
something like that.
And the guy says I used to havea guy for that dick.
And Lincoln says you ought toget that cut or something like

(10:46):
that.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
And the guy says I used to have a guy for that dick
so funny.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
That's the dark humor of that.
Yeah, that kind of goes in thatvein and that's the thing I
mean.
Obviously, you know, we canlaugh about it, but it's a
tragic thing that happened inthis country where you have
these people that are lionizedtoday for supposedly and I love
gore vidal for this, you knowgore vidal had that famous uh,
he came out and just calledlincoln out on this stuff he's,

(11:12):
you know, he said and, and he,he wrote a narrative history on
lincoln's life, but he made sureto emphasize that quote from
lincoln.
He is if I could free, if Icould save the Republic and free
the slaves, I would.
If I could save the Republicand free half of the slaves, I
would.
If I could, you know, save theRepublic and free none of the

(11:34):
slaves, I would.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
That was not his mission.

Speaker 3 (11:39):
Yeah, I mean, that's a telling thing.
Like we talk about Lincoln'sfirst inaugural address, I think
he mentioned the word slaverythree times, three, four times
maybe, but uh, nowhere was it incontext.
This is what we're fighting andI think that's where the quote
came about saving, saving therepublican, no matter what.
And he also talked about I, Ido, I have no intention of
interfering in slavery.

(12:00):
Where it presently is this, andI don't believe I have a right
to, a conscientious right to.
So you know he's a lot ofpeople were upset, they thought
his inaugural address wasactually very, you know, kind of
warlike or, you know, tauntingthe people, but in retrospect it
was nothing like what happenedafterwards.
So yeah, lincoln, everythingabout Lincoln, is Thomas D

(12:23):
Lorenzo, who inspired me a loton this.
He wrote Lincoln Unmasked andthe Real Lincoln.
He was the first guy really inmodern times to go out on a limb
and call.
You know, lincoln was a hero ofmine, like he was everybody
else, you know, and it's hardnot to you know, because Lincoln
was.
He was really kind of a poet.
He was a beautiful writer,really kind of a poet.

(12:44):
He was a beautiful writer.
He came up with Malice TowardsNone and the Better Angels of
Our Nature.
Even four score.
And seven years ago he had away where he took unusual words
and put them in something.
So people, I mean, has anybodyelse said score?
I didn't even know what thehell score was, but that kind of
thing where he used those theBetter Angels of Our Nature, I
use that a lot, just kind ofthing.

(13:04):
Where he used those the betterangels of our nature.
I use that a lot, just kind ofyou know, ironically.
But yeah, beautiful words, butunfortunately is it was an ugly
reality.
And we look at the situationaround us today.
I always go back to Lincolnbecause I think he's the main
person that's responsible for it.
He was the first Imperialpresident.
So anything you see the peoplethat hate Trump or hate any of
the president, they see himtrying to do this.

(13:25):
Lincoln was the first one tooverstep his constitutional
authority and if anyone hadcomplained at the ACLU, which I
was a card-carrying member ofwhen I was a teenager in the
early 20s, back in the Stone Age, when they actually cared about
civil liberties, if ACLU wasaround today and had protested
the treatment of the January 6thprisoners being denied all due

(13:47):
process, undoubtedly thegovernment would have cited
Lincoln's precedent.
There's no question about it.
I mean, they were citingLincoln under George W Bush.
As for the treatment of theprisoners at Guantanamo Bay, so
he's our greatest president,though that's what the court
historians say.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
I remember Dick Cheney reading the Gettysburg
Address, warming up to speak atthe 2004 Republican National
Convention.
I just, I was just eyeing thatI thought, wow, you took
something beautiful.
But you're right, they had sucha way with words.
I remember reading somethingabout him because he wrote that
poem on suicide and it was likeanonymously published or

(14:28):
something like that, and it wasnever you know it was only
linked to him later, but theysaid his law partner was it?
Yeah, he said that Lincoln.
He dripped melancholy, likeeverything was he's just so
melancholy.
I think that was one of thereasons why he was able to
summon those kind of words.
It was deep feelings and thingsthat he had.

(14:49):
But yeah, it's just, it's hardnot to see him without you know,
with John Wilkes Booth not inthe picture, it's hard to
imagine him only doing two termstoo.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Well, yeah, I think that with the, certainly the, I
think he would have beaten,beaten Roosevelt to the punch
there, because there was nothingin the constitutional limits.
You to two terms, as FDR foundout.
So, and maybe Donald Trump isarguing about it now.
But, yeah, I mean, in theGettysburg addresses.

(15:21):
I mean it's a magnificentaddress, it's beautiful, it is
poetry and I think HL Megandescribed this.
This is poetry but it's notreality.
And you know the whole idea.
And again, we consider Lincolnthe greatest president and most
historians consider theGettysburg Address not JFK's
peace speech at AmericanUniversity, which I would argue
is the greatest speech ever byan American president.
But they would argue that, andbut if you look at it, if it

(15:44):
been true, it would have beengreat.
But he was arguing the inverseof reality, because he was
talking about, he was trying tostop people.
You know, government of thepeople, by the people and for
the people, because that's thesoutherners, don't?
It doesn't matter, even if youtake slavery into it, I don't
think slavery had anything.
I don't think that wasobviously I had.
You know, as General Grantfamously said, if you know, if I

(16:07):
thought I was fighting to stopslavery, I'd hang my sword up
right now.
I mean I had to.
I mean his wife's still at aslave and didn't want to give it
up, you know, years after theEmancipation Proclamation.
So they weren't you knowwhatever.
I don't think they were fightingfor slavery, it was definitely
states rights and the power ofthe uh federal government.
I think that's why they calledthemselves the confederacy,

(16:27):
because they probably liked thearticles confederation, which
most of the people that supportme get kind of upset a lot of
times when I talk about theconstitution favorably.
You know they, they, uh, youknow they and I and I, I agree,
the articles of federationconfederacy probably were better
.
Certainly they gave thegovernment a lot less power.
But at any rate, it doesn'tmatter what slavery.

(16:47):
Whatever slavery is legal atthe time is as horrible as that
seems to us, and it's legal someplaces now because we have 40
main slaves in the world today.
Nobody seems bothered by it.
But, um, I don't know why, ifslavery is the bad thing, but um
, when, um, sorry, go ahead.
No, no, you go ahead, you goahead.
No, I have lost my train ofthought, so go ahead.

(17:08):
You came at the perfect time.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Sorry about that.
I was just going to say.
Another thing that kind ofbothers me as I've grown older
about Lincoln is he's alwaysdepicted as this very convicted
Christian type of character.
But I mean, before he enteredpolitics he wrote like this
scathing rebuttal to the NewTestament.
That is, I think his friendsurged him to burn Right.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, so it just seems like something a charlatan
would do.
I mean either own, your viewsor rescind them.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, exactly, really .
And I understand it.
Probably would have been hardin the 1860s to come out openly
as an atheist in politics.
Understand it, probably wouldhave been hard in the 1860s to
come out openly as an atheist inpolitics.
But, um, the least he couldhave done was not blame god, who
he didn't believe in, for thewar, and that's what lincoln did
like.
Lincoln didn't again, he barelymentioned slavery in the
inaugural address two years orso, I think, the emancipation
proclamation in 1863, so maybeso, um, so a couple years into

(18:03):
the war it wasn't going wellbecause the South had much
better generals and I'm not amilitary expert, but Stonewall
Jackson was about as good aswe've ever had.
The North had drunks like Grantand barbaric clowns like
Sherman and Sheridan, and all ofthem other than McClellan.
Their entire strategy was a warof attrition and even Lincoln's

(18:26):
wife was upset about that.
She called Grant the Beast,said he gets so many of his men
killed.
It's terrible.
And obviously her husbanddidn't care.
But the South was just muchbetter.
So they were able to hold theirown with the North for a long
time and eventually the numberssituation was too much for them.
But Lincoln tried to appeal tothe world, to Great Britain,

(18:49):
places like that.
So he thought, well, I'll takea moral posture here.
I'll say you know, this isabout slavery.
So he made it about slaverywith the Emancipation
Proclamation, even though, ashis own Secretary of State, john
Seward, told him, this ismeaningless.
You free the slaves where youhave no power, because the South
doesn't recognize yourjurisdiction anymore, and you're
not freeing them in the North,like General Grantsway's slave,

(19:11):
for instance.
So he clearly, you know he hadmade comments and I quoted them
in crimes and cover-ups thatwould, you know, make the leader
of the Grand Wizard of the KKKblush, you know, in his youth.
But to be fair to him, probably99% of whites felt the same way
back then.
So he wasn't unusual in thatregard.
It's not like Lincoln was, youknow, a racist by the standards

(19:34):
of his day.
But once he put that on a moralcompass, and then the last year
or two of the war, he began thisweird thing, and again he uses
great flowery language becausehe was good at that.
But where he starts blaming God, he said this is, you know,
this is the will of the Almighty, that you know, and it's which
is.
He didn't blame God.

(19:54):
So what kind?
I mean, what kind of right?
Charlotte is a perfect word, mrAnderson, but I mean the idea
that it's just such a tragedythat almost a million Americans
and and most people now thinkthat the 600,000 was downplayed
and it was probably 800,000 ormore actually that died in the
war.
I mean, that's just such atragedy, brother against brother
.
And it's more relevant thanever now when we look around us,

(20:16):
because we could be facing thatsituation again, because if we
had another civil war today itwould be even more so.
Civil war today it would beeven more so.
You know, husband against wifemore like you know and parents
against children and brotheragainst brother, because we're
just way more divided than wewere back then.
So I think it's more relevantthan ever to look at what that
war was really about, howsenseless it was and how it took

(20:39):
.
You know it was responsible forso many things.
It was responsible for separatebut equal and Jim Crow crow, as
ron paul said, it createdalmost 100 years of real racism.
And that was all createdbecause of the reconstruction
afterwards.
You know I've written a lotabout that in my books as well.
Historians just gloss over, youknow had military occupation of
the south and the things theydid were they and they set the

(21:01):
freed slaves on me, the mansions, and told them this belongs to
you and basically pointing toall the women, they belong to
you, those are yours, and theydid all that and that's just a
horrible thing to do, especiallythe people.
These were upper class people,the plantation.
They were very proud people andimagine that suddenly this is

(21:24):
their reality.
So I just think that you knowhistorians are never going to
look at that accurately becauseagain it comes down that whole
era comes down to slavery.
That's it, nothing else.
Lincoln was great because hefreed the slaves and that's
that's the way they look at it.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Right.
More Americans died in theCivil War, especially with the
more conservative numbers, eventhose that you were quoting than
world war one and two combined,pretty much yes, I mean I mean
you lose perspective of that.
When I was younger I I didn'tthink of it that way and think
of how they died too.
Oh, yeah, horrible in that inthe stomach proportionally.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
Just if you were adjusted for population, it
would be so catastrophiccompared to, like modern numbers
you know, as far as percentageof population that was lost, to
be in the millions.
You know, and that's that's howshocking.
That was the bloodiest war inthe West for the 19th century.
The Chinese had one at theexact same time and it was
millions.
It was a lot larger as far asdeaths, but the Civil War for

(22:20):
the United States was the wasthe bloodiest of the 19th
century for the West, and Ipointed out before, that's where
you get from Memorial Day.
Memorial Day used to be calledDecoration Day, and that was
when you would go and decoratethe graves of people that were
lost during the Civil War, andso that was a yearly event, and
one of the things that that didis it reminded people every

(22:43):
spring about the war and theirloved ones that were lost, and
so we didn't have another waruntil those, until that age
group, that generation, startedto lose, leave power, like it
was um the last world war ii ortwo.
Last civil war veteran waswilliam mckinley and um he damn

(23:04):
near had a stroke because theywanted to have him go to war
with Spain, but he didn't wantto go to war and they just
pushed him and pushed himbasically almost to a nervous
breakdown.
It might be one of the reasonswhy they got rid of him.
He was so hesitant to go to warbecause of what he'd seen.
And I'd point out many timesDecoration Day, what became

(23:28):
Memorial Day, that was 1865 to1898.
And we had internal wars, ofcourse, the Manifest Destiny,
all that stuff, the westwardpush and war against Native
Americans, but that was about itand we didn't have the external
wars until 1898.
And that was a differentgeneration.

(23:48):
So it was catastrophic, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
No, and that's what happens.
And certainly 1898 was anotherhuge line in the sand we crossed
there.
As you mentioned, mckinley wasreluctant and I do think you
know it probably had somethingto do with his assassination,
and he had a very aggressivevice president comments on the
record than you know, thomasJefferson, especially because

(24:18):
Thomas Jefferson left nocomments on the record like that
.
But TR isn't considered racist.
But he never met a war hedidn't love.
I will give him credit forwalking the walk though, because
he was ready to go charge upsome new San Juan Hill in World
War I at his age.
He wanted to do it again, so atleast he did like to be in the
action.
I guess that says something forsomebody.

(24:41):
He wasn't a chicken hawk.
But McKinley, I think again,was more of a Taylor Caldwell
forgotten novelist who read theCaptains and the Kings and other
books.
The Spotlight back in the daybefore it became American Free
Press, they used to talk abouther a lot and talk about her
books.
I read some of them because ofthat great writer, and she has a

(25:01):
scene in Captain I think it'sCaptain of the Kings where she
speculates that that McKinleywas killed because he was so
reluctant to take that hugecross, that line in the sand
where we first went in search offoreign monsters to destroy, as
john quincy adams warned usagainst no, I it's.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Uh, it certainly makes sense, and I believe the
guy that shot him his name Ithink his name was cholgosh, off
the top of my head, as I can.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
Yeah, I don't know how you pronounce that.
Yeah, leon, leon Cholzgos, Ithink yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah, but it's very similar to the, to the character
they used for the ArchdukeFerdinand, like the same kind of
beliefs and like this wasSerbian anarchist group, you
know, like this.
And then the same kind of thingwith this Cholgos figure.
He wrapped his pistol up inlike a cast and got really close
to him but, like McKinley,lingered on for days, you know,

(25:58):
yeah, yeah, he didn't die rightaway and then, you know, might
have been, certainly the doctorsmight be responsible.
I think he had like sepsis orsomething it was.
It's pretty horrific yeahreally sad.
And of course you get teddy, youknow, and he did walk the walk
um, but that during that time,like he was under secretary of
the Navy, just like his, hisfuture, you know, the cousin FDR

(26:20):
would be for one and then goinginto his same career pattern,
by the way.
But he, except for FDR, didn'tget over into the war.
Teddy did.
Teddy was his wife Edith likesick, possibly on her deathbed.
He's like I got to go, I got toget in this war and so yeah, he

(26:40):
really did walk the walk.
At least give him credit forthat.
But he didn't see many wars, hedidn't like.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I think one time he tracked down three guys who had
stolen horses, just as acivilian, well before he was
president, and spent all nighttracking them down.
And yeah, yeah, he was crazy.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, he was, he was, uh, he was macho.
There's no doubt about that.
He was a man's man, but uh, youknow, I I don't uh, and there's
some, you know, there's somethings to to like about him, but
again, just, he was kind ofexaggerated because andrew
jackson, who I like very much,uh was a populist in many ways,
but he, he also liked war waytoo much for my taste and uh, so

(27:23):
that kind of ruins it for me,because I like everything else
about jackson.
We fought the banks but uh, he,he would have, he would have
never wanted a man war he didn'tlike either, I have a feeling,
because he loved war so much.
I don't know what he would havedone with the war between the
states, because obviously he wasa southerner, but I don't know,
I know he would have enjoyedfighting it, however old he was,

(27:44):
but I don't know, I'm not surehow he would have felt Because
he might have wanted to punishthe Confederates.
I don't know, who knows.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
So, if I'm correct on this, don, I think his first
term, jackson's first termwasn't his vice president, john
C Calhoun.
I think so.

(28:12):
Yeah, that's true.
Yes, and of was something.
Calhoun was doing something inSouth Carolina.
That's where he's from, correct?
And it was something thatJackson basically said we're
going to hang some traitors.
You know the president, that'show he was going to put down
like there was a, there was aninkling of a rebellion and this
could have come out of that wasyou know you talk about like the

(28:33):
tariffs, that was the tariff ofabominations and that kind of
time period and all the thingsthat were going on because this
North was industrializing.
No, you're right, it's hard tosee Jackson not keeping the
union together.
He was very much the same thingwith Sam Houston, which was his
protege, and Houston didn'tbelieve in the Confederacy.

(28:56):
As a matter of fact, it costhim his governorship in Texas,
and you know that's one.
And JFK wrote about him inProfiles in Courage because of
that, because of his stance onbeing pro-union.
So possibly probably would havedone something similar to
Lincoln, I imagine.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think so, and so it's.
You know, if you've got to pickand choose from these guys, I
think you know they're good.
And I still love Jeffersonbecause I think most of it.
But I think Jeffersondefinitely would have been.
Probably most of the founderswould have been on the side of
the Confederacy, but Jeffersonhad to have been because, I mean
, again, he just.
I mean, mean, how many thingsdid he put out there?
Whenever you grow tired of thisgovernment, you have a right to

(29:36):
alter, abolish it.
I mean, he made it very clearhe would have been appalled at
what happened.
I mean he would.
He probably would have been,you know, he would have been
robert e lee's place.
Probably if, uh, if he'd been,you know, young enough to do it,
but uh, but yeah, it's just ashame.
You know americans arehistorically illiterate.
Mr anderson referred to some ofthe things he didn't know.
I mean, I and I, as I'mresearching this stuff, or peter

(29:57):
and chris are researching itfor me I'm discovering amazing
stuff and they send me something.
Even I, sometimes even I, hadto make sure it's sourced, make
sure it's correct, because, uh,some of it is unbelievable and
and, uh, it's, but it's.
I don't know why I should feelthat way, because we look at
today's news and everything andyou see the things that happen
and you know, maybe in a couplehundred years people look back

(30:19):
and say they couldn't believethat either.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
I'm sure the truth is stranger than fiction.
That's why I love history, Ilove your work and definitely
brings a lot to light.
You cover a lot on the CivilWar and we definitely I think
we've touched on that here let'stalk about because of time
constraints, let's talk aboutJoe McCarthy, another

(30:43):
fascinating bit of history inthe American memory that a lot
of people don't truly grasp.
What's your take on tail gunnerJoe?

Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, well, I think again, I think he's.
I mean, I was alwayspredisposed to like him.
I mean years ago I was.
I was a far left winger andthen I, then I, I started, you
know, I accidentally read GaryAllen's none dare call a
conspiracy.
I thought it was a JFK book andand I said, wow, this is
completely different.
And I, it turned my worldaround because it's CFR and UN

(31:15):
and all that stuff.
And I said John Birch Societyand I said this is wow and I
would look up the membership ofthe CFR and stuff.
But you know, so, mccarthy, youknow one of the books I got
back then I saw her orderingleft-wing books at a place
called Camelot Book Services inCalifornia.
You get subversive materialthere.

(31:36):
And they get even moresubversive material from
Metairie, louisiana.
They have a thing called Sonsof Liberty.
So I ordered a lot of stuffthere.
That's where I discoveredEustace Mullins and people like
that and they had a, you know, Ithink, somebody.
I have it around here somewhere.
Why was Joe McCarthy murdered,or something like that?
So I read about it and I said,well, that's really interesting.

(31:57):
And that's when I discoveredJim Forrestal, james Forrestal
who was McCarthy's close friendand McCarthy wrote a book or
pamphlet about the murder ofJames Forrestal.
I mean, he directly accused thegovernment of killing him and
then, ironically, you know,after they pushed Forrestal out
of a high-rise window atBethesda Naval Hospital, a
couple of years later McCarthywent in there with a knee issue
and at age 48, he was dead twodays later.

(32:19):
No autopsy ever done and theystill don't know what killed him
.
They just basically attackedhim in the press and Drew
Pearson and young Jack Anderson,this awful alleged journalist
they just accused, basicallysaid he was a drunk and that the
alcoholism killed him and allthat which he had no proof of.
That.
It's ridiculous.
So if you look at Trump and yousee, like what happened to Jim

(32:44):
Garrison as well, you know tosome degrees.
But if you look at the wayMcCarthy was treated, especially
posthumously because he's nowyou know his name refers to an
entire era.
There was a witch hunt in the50s for commies and the Reds,
but McCarthy wasn't leading it.
I mean because basically it wasthe House Un-American

(33:04):
Activities Committee.
They blame McCarthy for theHollywood blacklist when he had
nothing to do with.
He.
Was a member of the Senate.
He wasn't on the HouseUn-American Activities Obviously
.
So it should be jay parnellthomas or that, or jay parnell
roberts, whatever his name was.
That should be the guy.
That should, should his havehis name in the history books.
If you're gonna, you know, callit.

(33:24):
But mccarthy isn't.
And mccarthy was a well-meaningpatriot.
I think he was naive.
Uh, he was, as you said, tailgunner, joe.
He was a, you know, he again I.
I think world war I II is asdumb as all the other wars, but,
no doubting his heroism, he wasa tail gunner.
I mean, he was a fighter pilotand he was getting in the back
of those planes and shootingdown enemy planes and it sounds

(33:47):
pretty courageous to me, youknow.
So I would call him just as Icall JFK.
You know what he did withPT-109.
These were real heroes, eventhough I don't support, I think
they were.
You know it was again anothermisguided effort just ended up
in just people, you know,senselessly losing their lives.
But McCarthy was a hero,however you look at it, and he,

(34:09):
like a lot of people that era.
He was concerned with thecommunist influence and he was
impacted on that, and you withthe communist influence and he
was impacted on that.
And you know, nixon and peoplelike that weren't it, but in a
different way.
Mccarthy, you know, was a realbeliever and mccarthy had decent
press until he started lookinginto the army, and that's what
you know and that's mostly whathe did even look into hollywood.
And and you see in the book,most of that came from peter's

(34:29):
great research where we uhdiscovered, you know he was, he
was the first Pearl Harborconspiracy theorist, apparently,
or one of the first, because hewas basically questioning that
in public.
You know, saying that, you know, obviously FDR had to know he
was one of the I think he wasthe first one who, again, this

(34:51):
was a guy who fought the Nazisand, you know, was a real war
hero, but he was even after thewar he started talking about the
atrocious manner in which someof these Germans were treated.
I have a thing in the book Iforget what it was called, but
it's in American Memory Hallwhere he made some great
comments saying just becausethey're the enemy, it doesn't
give us the right to treat themlike that.
And plus, you know I'm aKennedy fanboy.
He was a great friend of JoeKennedy Sr, who I think is one
of the unrecognized patriots ofthe 20th century.

(35:13):
He was a godfather to KathleenKennedy, rfk's oldest child.
Although they've tried to throwthat down the memory hole but
there's way too many referencesto it.
He was their godfather and hedated, I think, a couple of the
Kennedy sisters.
He was a good family friend.
Now when they became veryliberal, especially later, they
tried to gloss that over, butthey actually remained faithful

(35:34):
to them in their way, like jfkvery notably managed to be out
of the senate absence of thesenate when they voted to censor
mccarthy because he didn't, youknow, he didn't want to go
against a family friend, but Iguess he didn't want to hurt him
politically either.
But um, you know, people canread what we have in there and
he he was.
He was going into areas he kindof alluded to.
You know, peter thinks he wasalluding to UFO type things at

(35:57):
Montauk and he had aninquisitive mind.
And if you look at what elsewas going on in the 1950s, this
was not just a simple commiehunt, he was.
I mean, why should, whoever itwas, would we be concerned that
there had been, you know, nazisin high levels of the government
?
Well, actually, yes, there were.
You know Operation Paperclip.
I don't care about that Interms of these were apparently

(36:19):
Soviet agents.
Herod, dexter, white had beenback at JFK.
If they're supposed to be ourenemy and we're spending all
that kind of money.
Mccarthy had every right to saywhy would you have our enemies
in government?
That would be like now if theycould be proved that dual
citizenship or something right.
Our enemies in government?
That would be like now if theycould be proved.
You know that um adultcitizenship or something right
imagine that oh, that wouldnever happen but I mean if they

(36:42):
could prove like members of isisor something, you know that
we're?
We're sitting in high positionsin the army, you know we have.
You know, was it dav zakheimfrom the bush rabbi dav zakheim
and other israeli citizens thathave held high positions in our
military and nobody seems tocare about that.
But on the surface at least,israel is supposed to be our
ally, but the Russians weresupposed to be, the Soviets were

(37:04):
supposed to be our arch enemythen.
So that was a huge scandal Ifyou can prove that these guys
were in upper levels ofgovernment.
So you understand why Trumanand Eisenhower too I mean both
parties hated McCarthy.
You know theyccarthy, you knowthey just, you know you thank
trump, but on a, you know thisis what guys actually trying to
do something.
So well, sorry, yeah, go ahead,go ahead.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
No, I don't know where it's going I was just
gonna say, um, something elseabout jfk, because that's
somebody when I was younger.
I mean, there were just alwaysthese provocative details people
would tell you about oh, he wasan adulterer and he was hooked
on pain meds.
Dr Feelgood had to follow himaround, but I think he was
probably the last presidentwe've had that I would really
have liked to be president.

(37:47):
But something I didn't knowagain that you pointed out in
your book was you know JFK'sletter to his dad that he wrote
at 22,.
You know close to a decadebefore the formation of Israel,
and maybe you can comment onthat and you know the concerns
he had about the formation of aZionist state, even at 22.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, no, it's a remarkable letter to his father
and it you know it does at thebeginning of it makes it very
obvious that the subject of theJews was something that they
talked about in the house.
There's no question about it.
I mean the way he's kind of aninsider conversation to his
father and we know Joe Kennedyobviously didn't help his
political career, but behind thescenes he was very.

(38:28):
I mean remember he was inHollywood too so obviously saw a
lot of Jewish influence there.
So he was concerned about thisand he spoke his mind.
He was a very outspoken guy soand he was, you know, he was the
mentor for his children.
The mother was kind ofinvisible.
So whatever they were for, goodor bad, it was from Joe
Kennedy's senior.
He was very hands-on father,especially considering that time

(38:48):
period and how his income levela one percenter in the 1920s
and 1930s, I mean to be thathands-on as a father was
astounding.
But he was, and so you can seethat in JFK's words.
But the analysis is brilliant.
I mean he's 22 years old and hepretty much predicts what's

(39:08):
going to happen if within and itdid happen within eight years
or something, and he talks aboutwhat a disaster this is going
to be, but he analyzes the Arabsituation.
He analyzed would happen if thejews came there and they had a
zionist homeland.
People would read it.
It's, it's, it's available.
I think it's at the boston uh,you know jfk library in boston,
I think, but maybe they don'trealize, um, what's in it.

(39:30):
But I I'm astonished that jfkhas not.
He's been smeared with so manythings.
You mentioned the nonsense likeDr Feelgood and the mob and all
this crazy stuff that mostlyhas to do with his father.
It's all imaginary, it allcomes from CIA and mafia sources
, but they've never saidanything about him being
anti-Semitic, which is amazing.
Because that letter alone, Ithink you know, by their

(39:52):
standards, shows that God here's, jfk and his dad talking a lot
about Jewish power andeverything.
And you know, by theirstandards, shows a guy here's,
jfk and his dad talking a lotabout Jewish power and
everything, and you know so it's.
I don't know why they haven'tdone that.
I guess it's a good thing, butthey certainly.
As you said, mr Anderson, as ayoung guy reading about him, I
can tell you it wasn't alwaysthat way and he was martyred

(40:19):
after he died, kind of likeLincoln, but the martyrship
didn't last very long, you know,because, and just like Lincoln,
they didn't look into his death, you know, and they covered up
the circumstances of his death.
But in the mid-1970s, afterabout 10-year honeymoon period
or so, that's when JudithCampbell Exner came out of the
shadows and with her ridiculous,you know, uncredible story and
the rest is history.
Now, people, you know, thekennedys are like no other
family, especially no otherdemocratic party family.
You're never going to find thekind of books, what was it?

(40:40):
Uh, the crazy margaret callahanwho I wrote about in american
memory hall.
Who's just she?
You know, she must have had the, you know, the hots for one of
the kennedys or something,because she talks like a spurned
lover, she hates them so muchand it's so personal with her,
but now she's got a book.
Um, I think it's called ass,not that.
And again, it's just an attackon jfk, attack on the kennedys,

(41:02):
the familiar arguments and, uh,with a new emphasis on rfk jr,
because she was especiallyattacking him when he was
running for president.
But, uh, you're never going tosee, that would never happen to,
for instance, fdr and we talkabout in america.
And I remember when, again,peter discovered that I think it
was?
Uh, was it archibald roosevelt?
I forget what son is, whatjames, rather what.

(41:24):
It was the same guy that wasflying behind joe kennedy jr.
And you know, when this planeblew up in a nonsensical bombing
mission where they had, youknow they had abandoned the
target site.
So you tell me why you wouldsend somebody out to bomb
something that wasn't there anylonger.
But we had to rely on Roosevelt.
He was the closest one.
Maybe it was Elliot Rooseveltwho so his testimony?

(41:47):
This is what happens.
Who knows what really happened?
He could have shot him down forall I know.
I'm not saying that, but whoknows, he was the only witness.
But this guy, elliot Roosevelt,I think he was a character we
talk about American memory hole.
He was tied in with all thesedisreputable figures.
He was just personally ascorrupt as hell and I forget the
circumstances of it, but it'san American memory hole.
But you're not going to see anyMargaret Callahan types write

(42:12):
about the Roosevelt family likethat.
And that guy was way morecorrupt than any Kennedy family
or Ruff ought to be.
You're not going to even LBJ.
Somebody is crude and just onthe surface so corrupt, so
morally bankrupt, he gets waybetter press from the court
historians than JFK does.

(42:32):
It's only JFK and he's the onlyone whose head that blew off.
So I think you can do the math.
But I mean it's why I continueto be attracted by them, because
the Kennedys are the onlyfamily that has a huge body
count, but it consists of theirbodies, not their enemies.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, Tony has a really funny story that Ralph
Hall told him about LBJ.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Does Don know?

Speaker 2 (42:55):
that story?
Oh, I've mentioned to himbefore you talked about LBJ.
Does Don know that story?

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Oh, I've mentioned to him before.
You talked about the graveyardstory, oh yeah, oh yeah, my
friend.
Congressman Ralph Hall.
Yeah, he was a state senator inTexas at the time, you know,
and LBJ was vice president andthey went and you know they
would visit and they were close,you know.
But he told him go on that backroad and write all those names

(43:17):
down and come back and see me.
And Ralph asked him why did youhave me do that?
He said Ralph, they deserved avote too.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Yeah, exactly, that really happened.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
He's the first one that brought out the dead and
they've been a solid voting blocsince then.
I've got Mr Anderson.
I'm going to have to cut my micoff for just a second.
You talk to Don, because I'vegot a train coming by.
It will bleed out the audio, sohold on to me about a minute
and a half, okay.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, absolutely so, don.
Maybe you could talk about Ithink it's chapter 8 in your
book the 70s and the 90s andkind of the Reagan era 1986, and
the 90s and kind of the reaganera 1986 and the slow american
deterioration um sureparticularly about reagan in
1986 and how he botched the thewhole illegal immigration thing

(44:08):
with suffered into the massamnesty right, yeah, that's.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
And there's many parallels between reagan and
trump in some ways.
In terms of ways, reagan hadnever had a cult like trump had,
but he had earnest supportersand that would result later in
them.
You know there's an airportnear me that's reagan national
now, uh, naming a bunch of stuffafter him and that's the kind
of stuff the republicans wantedto keep up with the democrats.
But an examination of his airand I wrote in there not only I

(44:34):
mean embassy was embassy.
That was the chance when we hadsomething to do.
We had a chance to do somethingabout it in 1986.
It was a relatively new problem, could have been easily managed
.
But, as I point out in the book, if you read and I was again,
even I did most of that research, on my own, I think.
But even I was, you know,surprised to see how he had been

(44:55):
such an open borders advocatehis whole life.
So he didn't even pretend towant to do anything about
immigration.
Yet again, his people like yousee the Trump cult.
They somehow thought that hewas going to do something.
He was, and he told him overand over and he wasn't.
You know he talked about, infact, he was the first one.
I think that was that we mayhave started the you know

(45:16):
they're doing jobs thatAmericans won't do, and I have
the quote in there from the book.
I think he used it at the farmworkers, maybe or something, but
he was the first one prettymuch to say you know, you
Americans are too lazy.
You know we have to get theseforeigners that are just you
know, coincidence, that we'repaying them nothing.
You know we had to get them inthere to do it.

(45:37):
But, uh, so many bad thingsabout reagan I mean just the
things, you know, the supremecourt under him, the burger
court, which is thought of as aconservative court, terrible
decisions, and one of the mostdisastrous was, uh, in the early
80s, to uh, to uh permit, uh,the children of the legal
immigrants to have a publiceducation.
So that's when this got me just.
And again, there was almost nooutcry from the conservatives.
Nobody, you know, blamed reaganor nobody.

(45:58):
Nobody said oh, we got toreplace people in the court.
This is an outrage.
And again, I didn't notice it,then you know, because I wasn't
paying that much attention to it.
I was a young guy and uh.
But, um, you know the idea that, uh, that this happened under
reagan, the amnesty happenedunder re and again they use the
same excuse with Reagan thatthey use with Trump.

(46:19):
The Democrats, the dirtydoggone, devilish Democrats.
They fooled him, the dirty dogs.
They didn't do what theypromised, it's like.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Fool me once.
Shame on me.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Exactly, yeah, so apparently Reagan wasn't too
smart and Trump isn't too smart,because they're always getting
fooled by these deviousDemocrats.
But that was just horrible.
And I remember the time Iworked with the Chinese guy.
It was, you know, I worked withthe United Nations back then
but this guy was great and he,he just kept going around us as
stupid Reagan was.
He kept.

(46:53):
He pronounced his name likeLincolnincoln lincoln, he was
trying to say reagan, but um, hewas so mad about it, you know,
as a chinese immigrant, becausehe said it's so stupid they're
going to bring over all theirfamilies.
And I said, yeah, too bad,you're not in the government.
But, um, and of course they did, and that, that was it.
That was it.
And nobody, certainly george,and george bush was not going to
do anything about it.
Clinton was not going to doanything about it.

(47:15):
So that was your last chance.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
And California tried Right In 94 with Prop 187.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Yes, yes, exactly, and you saw and I talk about
that a lot that judicial review,that that goes into judicial
review.
Which another point in the bookwhere you know they did try a
different, californiaoverwhelmingly passed Prop 187,
which would have done thesensible thing that our
government doesn't seem able todo, and that is tie any kind of
government benefits tocitizenship status so you can't

(47:44):
get any government benefits ifyou're not here.
Legally it's a very commonsense thing.
I don't know why theRepublicans can't seem to figure
that out, but the citizens didthen.
But it didn't matter becauseunder judicial review, what
happened?
It went to a federal judge whoand seems like all these federal
judges are all the same I neverhear about a federal judge
making a good decision.
But uh, this federal judge uhsaid no, unconstitutional, so

(48:08):
that's it.
So one guy, one unelected guy,thwarted the will of millions
and millions of people, ofvoters, and that's judicial
review in a nutshell.
And Lincoln, I mean LincolnTrump, is discovering that now
with his executive orders, wherejust one federal judge answered
the other and said, no, can'tdo that, no, can't do that, and
that's.
You know, it's unfortunate, butyeah, a lot of this stuff goes

(48:31):
back to Reagan those two things,and certainly I talk about
asset forfeiture and that reallyexploded under Reagan SWAT
teams, all kinds of horriblethings happened under Reagan
Again, because the right wasenamored with, really enamored
with, the police and lawenforcement back then and we saw
that kind of come to fruitionin the 90s with Ruby Ridge and

(48:52):
Waco and all that stuff.
But they enabled that and theystill do.
And this is the problem I tryto tell conservatives all the
time.
You know the Trump people islike you know your boy loves the
police.
He doesn't think they can everdo anything wrong.
And you guys were out there onJanuary 6th.
If you still think the policeare on your side, you know what?

(49:14):
Why would you ever think that?
And yet during the blackbrothers matter riots, they were
kneeling, sometimes whetherthey were standing by, letting
them burn buildings and stuff,but they were ready to kill
january 6 protesters.
I mean, how, how hard do youhave to be hit over the head to
understand that the police arenot on your side?
But the conservatives still saysupport the blue and stuff and

(49:34):
they get mad at you if you, it'slike tell, if you tell them,
not support through.
Well, what are you supportingwith the troops?
Okay, I don't want the troopsto be killed, but what are you
exactly?
What are you supporting?
Are you supporting them bombingyemen?
For no reason?
What?
What I don't you.
What are you supporting?
But they do because they justtrain.
They're indoctrinated.
It's like the left isn't yeah,it's exactly, and the left is

(49:56):
indoctrinated to, like, you know, minorities or transgender
something.
It's just, it's indoctrination.
It's so hard to to get peopleto think yeah, there's a funny
meme.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
I think you sent it to me, tony a bunch of cartoons
depicting different swat signsas they're about to raid a house
, and I think the first was adog inside, shoot it.
And then the other one was liketwo dogs might be there.
Shoot them both.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Yeah, well, they do.
They've done that a lot,haven't they?
But the asset force of thewhole thing and I give examples
in the book of some of it it's adrop in the bucket.
I could write a book on that,but it's again.
Trump's's never gonna end that.
You know, jeff sessions waswanted to expand it his first
attorney general and he's he's afan of that too, so it needs to
be.

(50:41):
You know, that's when you talkabout the police, that's the
that's at the heart of policecorruption is that policing for
profit, asset forfeiture shouldbe gone.
I mean it's, it's.
It's not unconstitutional tojust confiscate people's
property that haven't even beencharged with a crime a lot of
times and then not give it backeven when they're that's, that's

(51:01):
the problem.
They'll take houses, they'lltake cars and think, but in this
book, american memory hole,again, thanks to peter's uh help
with the research um, we foundall these things that fdr did,
that, uh, where he introducedthat, where not only did he put
Japanese and, but he also putItalians and Germans in
concentration camps too.
They didn't get any reparationsand nobody mentions them.

(51:23):
They all should be mentionedbecause they are all mistreated,
but they stole their homes andthey stole their businesses,
they stole their property.
It was asset forfeiture andthey never gave it back.
It's estimated that the germansalone lost like six billion
dollars, and for businesses.
Nobody talks about that.
That's.
That's as hidden history as youcan possibly find.

(51:44):
You try to tell the averagecitizen that what?
What are you talking about?
Yeah, that's what they did andthat's that's germany.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Yeah, it was paying World War I reparations until
2010.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yes, yes, until 2010.
So that's I mean.
You know, that was anothershocker.
When I discovered on my own,when I was researching, that
crimes in cover, I was like what?
How's that?
I mean that's.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
I think it was Nixon who forgave the loans to the
Soviets during the Soviet era.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Yes, yes, yep.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
That was a lot of.
That was Lynn Leese in time ofFDR and all that stuff, and we
were backing Stalin.
We saved, we propped upStalin's government.
I mean, the United States StateDepartment really didn't get
into World War II.
It had nothing to do with GreatBritain and the defiant stand
they were making, and all that.
As soon as it was OperationBarbarossa, june 22, 1941, when

(52:43):
Hitler turned on the SovietUnion, the United States
Department of State said we'vegot to get in this thing.
It's true, you can look at thepattern.
It's because Joe McCarthy wasright.
I mean, I guess I make a jokenow.
It's like McCarthy supposedlyhad this list.
I got a hundred and some odd.
Yeah, I mean I don't even needa list now.
Just print the employmentrecord of the State Department

(53:06):
and I can show you thecommunists, like the socialistic
, you know, that's that they all.
It's like Gorevidal said it'snot, it's not so much a
conspiracy, it's just they justthink alike.
That's the ruling class.
You know, you, you've, andthere's a continuity of that.
There's a cog, there's acontinuity of government.
There's a continuity of classthere.
Yeah, um, I want to close outtalking about.

(53:28):
You mentioned the 90s and that'skind of my wheelhouse too,
because you know, you know I wascoming of age in the nineties.
I was 13 for Waco and you know15 for Oklahoma city and I
remember going up during thattime and I've mentioned this on
my shows and many times.
But you know my dad, who becamepolitically awake during that

(53:52):
time as a business owner,entrepreneur and, you know,
owned a bank and other things,and he said there is something
terribly wrong.
It was kind of the successionof events.
It was Ruby Ridge, followed byWaco, followed by the assault
weapons ban and I think I'mright on my timeline of those
being in law.
I think you know the Brady Billand all that stuff.
It was just this march towardscentralization, more with the

(54:15):
federal government, and it wasfocusing all of their stuff
internally because this ispost-cold war.
So it's like the governmentturned inward and went, you know
, after any group or you know,uh, whatever personality,
whoever it, it would just speakout against government power and
globalization and other thingsthat America was doing after the

(54:38):
Cold War.
I see this quote here, don, andI just wanted to say it for the
show.
I'd never heard this.
One day you'll find out yourgovernment was behind this
Timothy McVeigh.
I'd never heard that quote.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
Yeah, I think you know he's.
Yeah, he supposedly said thesethings.
I mean, who knows?
Because McVeigh was such astrange character and he, he was
an odd patsy, you know, let'ssay that, but very, very odd.
But yeah, you know, these thingsthat you mentioned, it was, I
call it, conspiracy, central inhidden history, the 90s, the
Clinton years, but it was justone after another and it was

(55:13):
like they were like the Beatlesof conspiracy, you know, they
had all the, all the, the hitsthat kept coming.
But I mean, if you look at itlike at that time in 1992, there
was a growing third partymovement.
It was, it would, maybe, itwould maybe at its peak in
american history.
You could argue that becauseross perot got 19 cents of um,

(55:37):
you got 19 of the vote and thatwas the most that any president
had gotten since teddy rooseveltyou mentioned earlier in 1912.
But or, yeah, that was 1912,yeah, but uh.
So you know what all thishappening at that time was very
fortuitous for the government,because they could, oh, look at
these crazed white separatistslike Randy and Randy Weaver was

(56:00):
a white separatist, if you wantto call him that he just wanted
to be left alone, so he justwent in his cabin and said you
know, I don't bother me.
And of course the governmentkept screwing with him.
And screwing with him andtrying to get him to become an
informant like Al Sharpton wouldlater, and people.
And trying to get him to becomean informant like Al Sharpton
would later or had alreadybecome, and people like that,
but he wouldn't bite.
They eventually ended upselling him.
He sold a sawed-off shotgun.

(56:20):
He kept sawing it off, sawingit off until he got to be an
illegal vet.
And then they went into therest of his history.
He killed his son, killed hisdog and blew his wife's head off
as she held a baby.
Lon Horiyuchi, who's an FBIsharpshooter, or William Barr,
trump's first second attorneygeneral, was a character witness
for.
So that's how we drain theswamp.
And then you had Waco, which Istill think Waco is the greatest

(56:44):
.
I still think that's the mostimpeachable offense ever
committed by any president,unless you look at, I guess,
lincoln's collective warminoring, but just on the
surface.
I mean to kill those americancitizens, used armored tanks and
you use the poisonous gas thatwas banned by the geneva
convention that we couldn't useour enemies, but you use it on
little kids and then to blamethem and nothing happened to him

(57:06):
, nothing.
And uh, and I you know I wasthen I was ranting and raving
about it back then it it wasamazing I couldn't get, you know
, most of my family to.
They just gave me blank looks,said how can you move the branch
?
They said you didn't hear thebranch, nobody heard of them
before last week.
Now you think they should bekilled.
You don't even know what theyare.
I said I don't care what theyare and what they're doing is

(57:27):
wrong.
And it was a horrible thing.
But you know, again, this was Ithink this is in response to
Ross Perot getting all thosevotes the third party movement
and the militia.
Clinton would famously demonizethe militia later because of
that, after, in response to that, and he would kind of blame
them for certainly for OklahomaCity and after Oklahoma City.
That was it that killed thethird party movement and because

(57:49):
they lied so much about thatand it was never the same again
until Trump came along, you know, and killed it for good.
You know, because there's thatpopulist sentiment has always
been there and certainly thingsare more corrupt than now than
ever, but we've never had thisbig fake opposition like we had
that day you didn't have.
I think Ross Perot wasbasically sincere and I think if

(58:12):
those things hadn't happened,if those psyops hadn't happened,
he could maybe have won 96.
Because he ran again, he stillgot 8% of the vote.
But you can see that's how dumbthe American people are,
because those obvious falseflags happen.
He lost 11% of the vote, anddid he?

Speaker 1 (58:28):
drop out and rejoin.
That was in 92, yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Yes, and again I talked about that in the
industry.
I don drop out and rejoin.
That was in 92.
Yeah, yes, and that was.
And he still got me.
And again I talked about thatin, uh, in the industry.
I don't really understand it.
It's never made any sense to me.
You know that bush was, youknow, threatened his, his
daughter's, I get pointed at thetime what was he going to do at
his daughter's wedding?
And I don't know, haveeverybody killed or I don't know
what was he?
You know, have somebody comeand rub wedding cake in their

(58:52):
face?
I mean, it made no sense.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
And then he jumped back in.
What's that?
It just reminded me of thatline from like, wasn't it the
Godfather?
It starts off at his daughter'swedding.
So it's just some weird.
It just reminded me of that.
A mafia, whatever.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, yeah, it was very mafia-like, but I mean I
wouldn't put bush past bush todo anything.
But uh, that's the only thing,because I I loved a lot about
ross perot and all all anecdotalevidences.
He was a real nice guy in reallife.
He tried to bring he's the onlyone that really tried to bring
the pows and my a's back,another completely forgotten

(59:28):
story.
No one talks about that anymore.
I have a big section on it inhistory.
But, um, you know, he was agreat man, I think.
And uh, I think, you know,maybe he was bad too.
I don't.
I'm sure the black pill peoplethat uh listen to my show would
tell me that he was, that he wasbad too.
But uh, uh, you know he lookedto be maybe a legitimate guy,
but that was it after that.

(59:48):
And then you know, you got.
You got what you got.
After that you got a secondterm of of Clinton and you got
George W Bush and Obama and therest is history.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
I spoke to once where my grandmother lived.
It's kind of a retirement home.
I spoke to at length for anafternoon with Ross Perot's
personal secretary, who knew himfor work for him for 20, 30
years or something.
It was a long time.
This has been about about eightyears ago and I just sat there
and talked with her.
She's so sweet, sweet lady.

(01:00:18):
She had nothing but good thingsto say about him, like, uh,
about how how he worked and howis this his operating system,
this is mind, and like how hewould compartmentalize things in
the way he even running forpresident, how that was legit
and everything that he wouldcompartmentalize things in the
way he even running forpresident, how that was legit
and everything that he was doing.
And just, you know, there's Ithink there's a lot of evidence
to show he was a real person,maybe a bit eccentric or had

(01:00:41):
some issues.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Yeah, I think it was certainly you know, wasn't um.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
I remember one time I saw an interview with him.
He was.
He was the subject of the firstum paper I ever wrote.
I was first um paper I everwrote.
I was 12 years old.
It's the 92 election and um, mystepmother was mad at my father
because she thought that hewrote it.
He's like, why would you writethat like he did it?
He's interested in it.
You know, it's awful, how wouldyou write that um?

(01:01:08):
But you know that was the erain the 90s too.
You, you know you talk aboutman.
There was so much andespecially it culminated right
in the middle of the decade.
You know, april 19th, oklahomaCity.
So much strangeness.
But they derailed all of thosepolitical movements.
You're right, don, it was like,it's just like how they
derailed the Populist Party inthe late 19th century that was

(01:01:29):
becoming so powerful.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
The Populist yeah, Populist Party.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
19th century, that was becoming so powerful, um,
the populace, yeah, that was areal, I mean, that was a real
threat to the, to the duopoly,and that's why you had the, in
my opinion, was one of thereasons for the spanish-american
war.
Um, because the populaceopposed that and it was one way
to kind of throw them under thebus.
Is, you know, not beingpatriotic?
And you know, people went backto their assigned areas after

(01:01:53):
that, like like we do, you know,when there's something happens
and, um, that's so true, and Ithink about buchanan, I think
about those were the days, youknow, but a lot of that 96, yes,
the high water mark was, thehigh water mark was before, was
was 92, 94, yes, uh, you know,the contract with America, yes,

(01:02:14):
yes, rich, and all that, but,yeah, that never was the same
after Oklahoma City, never.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
And then, Tony, you were mentioning to how Trump was
behind the basicallydestruction of the reformist
party.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Yes, yes, yes, he was yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Yeah, that's in a book I read years ago called
Crusader.
It's the biography of PatBuchanan and it's very well
researched.
I mean, trump just shows upbecause, pat, his only goal was
in 2000 was just get in thedebates, because you had to
register enough percentage toget in the live televised
debates with the two parties.
He just wanted the Americanpeople to hear.

(01:02:49):
But he'd written these twobooks back back to back and one
was the great betrayal aboutfree trade and the other one was
a republic, not an empire on.
It was a blueprint for anamerica first foreign policy,
which basically meansnon-interventionist, bringing
the troops home and shoring uppower, but basically to reform
and restore our defenses.

(01:03:09):
And trump just came out bookand just said you're a hitler
lover.
That's what he said.
I mean he called him a hitlerlover on live television, you
know.
And they started getting hit onhim, and and then trump you know
, flirted with the being thenominee of the reform party, was
fractured, all the delegatesand by the time it was to clean
up the mess, you know he wasjust all screwed up.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
There was no momentum that's exactly right, and we
never forget that trump that'swhat I'm saying whatever trump
is, he's uh, he's got that inhis history as well and uh, I
think pat buchanan later endedup kind of liking trump.
You know, his pat was verymagnanimous.
He still somehow liked nixon,you know, but uh, maybe he
forgot about that or something.
Yeah, the reform party.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Trump called him about five years before he ran
and apologized, supposedly forhis comments, because he was
told to Like, because Pat wasgoing to play a major role and
because he just took Pat'sblueprint, which, yeah, which
was, which would work if youcould get.
You just needed enough mediaexposure and you got to survive
the hit pieces that would comeout when people are trying to

(01:04:17):
stop an America's first populistmovement.
So interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
And make America great again.
That was Reagan, that's Reagan.
Yeah, that's Reagan.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
Yeah, exactly, we're making it great again.
What's that?

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
about that.
Well, don Jeffries, love yourwork, love you, and this is a
great book.
I'm going to be finishing and Iimplore my audience anybody
that's listening to the show,downloads the show.
Please get a copy of AmericanMemory Hole, and any of Don's
work is totally worth it.
Again, he does like he saidearlier in the show.

(01:04:53):
I have to vet this, I have to,I have to source this.
He just doesn't write and saylook at this, it's, it's, you
know, it's not clickbait, it'snot sensational.
That's why, even before I metyou, I was listening, reading

(01:05:14):
your books, and that I'd make asaturday of it and listen to.
You know, uh, hidden history,and uh, back back in san antonio
a long time ago, back inanother seems like another
timeline.
Um, where can people find you?
I want to make sure you plugeverything well, every, every.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
This substack is the place.
I'm not being shadow bandit, soit's donald jeffries at
substackcom.
That's I protest, just like myuh live streaming show over the
same channels.
American Blog is on and that'severy Friday 5 to 7 pm.
Eastern American Memory HallMemory Hall of the Court of
Historians, politics andInformation.
That's my latest book, so youknow you can check that out and

(01:05:45):
all my books Masking the Truthabout COVID that's the most
shadow banned book in thehistory of the world and some
other stuff.
You mentioned some of theothers.
I have 10 books out there nowso people can kind of pick and
choose.
I'm proud of all of them.
But I and you know I wroteabout virginia jeffrey today so
people can read my latestsubstack uh kind of a tribute to
her that just uh ended upkilling herself.

(01:06:06):
You know happened to beepstein's most notable accuser,
so uh, it happens to people.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yes, it does Well appreciate all that you do.
I love the show.
Mr Anderson, I know you don'twant to be found and before you
fade into the mist, go back toyour other dimension, wherever
you are just outside.
I was going to say earlier thatyou're the first successful
cryogenics patient and we weappreciate your courage.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
Yeah, I was right next to Walt Disney there for a
while, of course you were, butthank you, don, so much.
I always learn something fromconversations with you and
reading your book, so thanks forall the hard work.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
I appreciate hearing that it's nice Nice talking with
you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Yeah, folks pick up Don's work and follow him over
on substack donaldjeffriesmedia.
He's on america unplugged, uh12 pm eastern on saturdays along
with me and, uh, the greatbilly ray valentine.
You can catch me on, uh, theart of burn radio transmission
if you want to go over to theamerica unplugugged channel on
Rumble or my ex at TonyArterburn.

(01:07:13):
That's live there and anywherepodcasts are found, you'll find
this Paratroother and theArterburn Radio Transmission and
I'll be doing some Wise Wolf,gold and crypto shows very soon.
I'll make announcements on that.
You guys take care of eachother.
We'll be back soon, episode 38coming out very, very soon.
See you guys.