Apis and Heritage’s Phil Reeves Shares His Big Idea for Employee Ownership

In this clip, Apis and Heritage’s Phil Reeves speaks at the 2025 Employee Ownership Ideas Forum. 

For additional resources, visit our website: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/videos/apis-and-heritages-phil-reeves-shares-his-big-idea-for-employee-ownership/ 

Or subscribe to our podcast and listen on the go: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/aspeneop/

For other session videos, visit the Aspen Institute Economic Opportunities Program on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@aspeneop

The 2025 Employee Ownership Ideas Forum took place on April 9-10, 2025, virtually and in Washington DC. The Forum is proudly co-hosted by the Aspen Institute Economic Opportunities Program and the Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing at Rutgers University.

This year’s theme, “From Workers to Owners,” highlights how the experience of ownership changes the reality of work for workers. The forum highlights companies in a range of business sectors and explores how employee ownership fits their business strategy and approach to business leadership. We also discuss the particular role employee ownership can play in supporting business success, and we consider the role institutional investors can play in improving capital access for employee ownership conversions and expansions.

For more information about the Employee Ownership Ideas Forum, including our speakers, agenda, and additional resources, visit our website: https://www.aspeninstitute.org/events/employee-ownership-ideas-forum-2025/

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
I I don't have sort of one big idea.
I have one big framework. What's has struck me in the last
few months is that I don't think, I don't think we're in
the 51st year of the last 50 years.
I think we're in the first year of the next 50 years.

(00:26):
Geopolitics, populism, inequality.
This is probably one of the mosttransformative times in history.
Artificial intelligence. I think this is the one of the
most dynamic points in the modern era.

(00:49):
And what strikes me about it is how employee ownership can play
such a major role and be such a solution.
In that set it was mentioned thethe Skull Award.
So we were in Oxford last week at a global conference and the

(01:09):
idea of employee ownership resonated in a way that I we did
not appreciate. I mean, Asia, Africa, the the
entire Global South was bought into the idea of employee
ownership. And then while we're on the
topic, while A and H obviously was the recipient, that award is

(01:33):
for the entire field. I mean, we're standing on work
that research done by other folks, transactions done by
other folks. And so by all means,
congratulations to our team, buta huge congratulations for the
entire field and elevating and giving more visibility to
employee ownership. And so all that to say is I

(01:53):
think the time for employee ownership is now.
We, we have a movement, we have a moment and we need to
capitalize on it. And so my big idea is I think
it's a great aim to try and double the number of employee
owners. I would push even further.
I think we need to 10X the number of employee owned
businesses in America. And so I think if you're working

(02:16):
in this field, if you're in thisroom, I would challenge you to
query how do I 10X what we're doing?
Because again, there's so much disruption, there's so much blue
ocean that those ideas are possible.
And so I, I don't have all the answers for how you do that.

(02:38):
But again, our work for folks that don't know, we go into the
market and we find companies that have never heard of Esops
and we help them convert to being 100% ESOP owned with a
focus on low and moderate incomeAmericans directly trying to
give working people a chance to own their businesses.
But in doing that, it highlightsthe challenges of what it's

(03:00):
going to take the 10X employee ownership because we see it
first hand every single day. And challenge 1 is that
awareness gap period owners do not understand what employee
ownership is. And I think, I hope this is not
controversial. I think a lot of effort in the

(03:20):
past has been the storytelling has been around the worker.
And I think we need to move someof that storytelling to the
owner because we can talk to herblue in the face about how great
it is to be an employee at a employee owned business.
But if we can't get business owners to want to do this
transaction, it's all for not. And so I think the expanding

(03:43):
Esop's effort that's bringing owners stories to light is huge.
I think EOX, where I'm fortunateenough to be on the board,
that's taking the message straight to owners is huge.
We need to push outside of the field to go to those owners,
look at new media, look at podcast, find the campaign that

(04:03):
will work. We need to get owners to buy
into this. And I think we also need to get
owners to buy into this, not because it's the right thing to
do, but because it is the smart thing to do for their business,
full stop, period. It is a better run business.
The data shows that all the CE OS here know that That's the
story we need to get out there. 2 It was just sad.

(04:26):
I these transactions are super complex.
Like super complex when we're dealing with the owner, they
think they're signing up for M and a transaction and then we
bring in this entire whole thingfor employee ownership.
Again, having not, I know all the lawyers and the consultants

(04:50):
and the trustees are like, I, I don't know if it's a policy
answer. I'm sure there's people in the
room working on that, but it's even just an education and
awareness gap. If we can just talk about what
it takes to do this transaction more visibly, that's huge.
Even if we could say like, hey, here's a template term sheet,
that's huge. Oh, here's a template purchase

(05:11):
agreement, here's a template ESOP plan.
Again, I, I know that they're all customized, they're all
unique, but 50, sixty, 70% got to be within a range that we can
try and standardize and that would significantly open up the
aperture for more Esops. Third, capital, and this is

(05:32):
where we spend all of our time. I think a few things about the
Capital point #1 this week, every business owner in America
has tried to figure out how theycan drop their cost.
It happens that employee ownership does that in a real

(05:54):
way. So even if we could say, look,
how do we get every business owner to think themselves, I
want to do a minority ESOP, it doesn't have to be 100%.
If we can get you to do 30% ESOP, you'll probably get to
100% eventually and 30%, 40%, that's the range where a bank

(06:14):
will provide the senior capital.That's the range where you might
be able to go to the SBA and get, I know it caps at 5
million, but it's something for the right besides business.
So I think bringing the minorityESOP component into the
conversation is a huge way to get more people just engaged.
But again, it has to be simplified and it has to have

(06:36):
the ROI for the business owner. And that ROI is we're going to
reduce your tax burden, we're going to engage your employees,
we're going to give you more productivity, we're going to
give you more retention. It's clear like we that is what
we pitch. And then on the capital side,
what is fascinating about our work is that we've taken
employee ownership to the capital markets.

(06:57):
And I'm here to tell you they are receptive.
Private equity is challenging, debt markets are challenging,
public markets are challenging. Employee ownership gives folks a
way to they can see the alpha creation like everyone can get

(07:19):
that if the employees are boughtinto a business, it's going to
do better. And so it's clear that story,
that narrative of just again, ROI for the capital markets will
bring capital into the space that will enable even deeper
employee ownership. So if you want to go beyond 30%,
you want to go 100%, we can do that.

(07:41):
And so those are three ideas. My biggest thing with all of
that is I think the field has the answers.
But with all of that, we can't compromise our values.
So we always have to keep the worker front and center, our
values front and center and makesure that we do it in a way that
can do for everybody. Thanks so much.