Big Impact, Big Challenges: Lessons from Collaborating with Large Businesses to Improve Job Quality

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Good afternoon everyone. I'm Matt Helmer.
I'm the Director of Job Quality and worker well-being at the
Aspen Institute Economic Opportunities Program.
It's my pleasure to welcome you to today's conversation.
Big challenges, big impact. Lessons from collaborating with
large businesses to improve job quality, a big title there as
well. This conversation is part of our
Job Quality and Practice series,in which we really try to

(00:27):
highlight practical ideas and strategies the different types
of organizations can use to address what we see as the
biggest economic opportunity challenge we face today in our
country, which is fixing work. Before we start today, I just
want to go really quickly over our technology.
Many of you are familiar with this drill, but I'll say it

(00:48):
again. Everyone is muted.
Please use that Q&A button at the bottom of your screen to
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(01:11):
Opportunity. If you run into any technical
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(01:32):
bottom of your screen to to activate those.
I want to start today's conversation by just kind of
acknowledging the world we're in.
There's kind of no escaping it, right?
I think things feel really toughfor a lot of us right now.
Things are challenging. The word that I've been kind of
leaning into lately is that things feel really heavy.

(01:54):
I think no matter your politics,it's clear that our country, you
know, is in a challenging place right now.
We're in the middle of a government shutdown.
It looks like the economy is slowing in some respects.
As it relates to the date to thetoday's conversation and our
work, we're seeing some worker protection start to be rolled

(02:16):
back around, worker safety around the right to join a
union, and there's just a lot ofpolitical and social
instability. And that seems to be rising.
And it's leading, I think, to real, real pain, real violence,
real suffering. You know, we have people today
that in our country that are afraid to leave their homes.
They're afraid to step into their communities, they're

(02:38):
afraid to step into their schools, they're afraid to step
into their own workplaces. So I think, you know, it's fair
to ask at this time, why do we all keep doing this work?
Why do we keep focusing on job quality?
Why do we keep having conversations like the one we're
having today when it feels like there's so many other pressing

(02:59):
matters going on that need to beaddressed?
And I think our panelists will have some powerful answers in
response to this question. But I want to tee us up a little
bit with a, a few thoughts. And I'll say I think this this
broader instability that we're all experiencing and that we're
all feeling right now, it's not separate from what many workers

(03:21):
really have been experiencing for, for decades in our country.
It's really an extension of it. This, these feelings of economic
insecurity, the feeling that, you know, work is no longer
delivering what people need to to live is part of what's really
fueling, I think, some of the instability that we're seeing
across our society. Our country's built on many

(03:43):
things, right? It's built on some shared
values, family, tradition, community, innovation,
entrepreneurship, opportunity and immigration.
And a lot of it's built around fundamentally around how we
design work, how we design jobs,the rules that we set for our
economy. And at times that's meant

(04:06):
that's, you know, that's led to a lot of worker exploitation and
worker suffering as well. But I think we all know, and
we're all here today too, because we know that jobs aren't
just about what goes into your wallet.
They're not just about the paycheck.
Jobs are worth. We spend a lot of our work
waking hours, right? They're the foundation we rely

(04:28):
on to build stable, meaningful lives.
And when work stops delivering on that promise, as it has for
too many, I think it really starts to tear at the fabric of
our communities and the fabric of our society.
We can civic engagement. We lose trust in our
institutions. We lose faith, faith and trust
in one another in many respects.And all of that leaves us very

(04:51):
vulnerable, I think, to divisionand scapegoating.
And that's a little bit of wherewe are.
When work doesn't work, a lot ofother things can start to
unravel. And I'm not saying that's the
only reason we're in this situation where we're at with
our country, but I think it is abig part of it.
So I think pulling ourselves back up as a country and out of

(05:11):
this spot that we're in as a country requires us really to
fix work. It requires us to really think
about and move towards building an economy that works for
everyone, where everyone feels like they have a real stake in
our country's future. But that's not possible when so
many people are being excluded from from good jobs and from
economic security. I read the most recent stat the

(05:34):
other day that said the top 1% in the United States hold more
than $50 trillion in wealth, andthe bottom 50% nearly 10 times
less than that, over 10 times less than that, just $4
trillion. So it's hard to ask people to
believe in this shared national project of America when so many
people are left out of their share.

(05:55):
So we're not going to, you know,fix political gridlock on
today's call. But we're going to talk about
some of the root causes that I think are fueling some of what
were the challenges that we're experiencing as a country.
And we're going to talk about ways that we can ensure people
have access to stable, dignifiedwork that leads to stable,
dignified lives and gives them astake in the future of their

(06:18):
communities and our country. And yes, large companies, large
corporations like we're going totalk about today, have a big
role to play. They employ millions of people.
They touch nearly every part of our lives.
We wake up each day and are surrounded by everything they
produce and everything that all aspects of our society that they

(06:40):
touch for work. They set standards across entire
sectors, across entire industries and across entire
geographical regions. These large companies can be
anchors that support a strong middle class, or they can be
ones that trap people in povertyand low wages.
And I think too often for many large companies, we've seen the
latter. Some people will say, Matt,

(07:03):
you're right. But the answer is worker
organizing. It's unionization, it's
protests, it's campaigns, it's policy and labor law reform, its
shareholder activism. And my answer to that is, is
yes. And this is a big complex
problem and we need every tool we've got right now to fix it.

(07:23):
That includes all those things I've mentioned, but it also
includes collaboration. We need solutions within
companies. We need to work, be working
alongside companies as well for practical, scalable strategies
that are driven from the inside,while there's other actors may
be pressuring from the outside. So it's pretty easy, I think
sometimes to get stuck in this trap of vilifying corporations.

(07:47):
And, and believe me, I know thatthat urge all too well.
But I think it's also limiting because I think no matter what
company you think is enemy #1 when it comes to to workers and
supporting good jobs, I promise you that within those companies,
there are good people on the inside who are, who care deeply
about the workforce, who care deeply about good jobs and

(08:08):
justice. And I know them, some of them
are my friends and colleagues. And I think they need our
support. They need our partnership, they
need our allyship. So that's a little bit where
we're going to focus. Today's conversation is on how
do we collaborate with large businesses and large
corporations. And I'll end with just a, a few
other thoughts, you know, again around like why we're doing this

(08:30):
work right now and why it matters.
And I've been talking to my colleague Maureen at the Aspen
Institute a bit about this and she keeps coming back to this,
this idea that ideas matter, shining a light on a different
way of doing things matters, particularly now when when a lot
of ideas and the the the idea ofsharing ideas feels like it's

(08:51):
under attack. These ideas matter.
We never know when they're goingto take roots and grow.
So I'll say lastly, I've been reflecting on something I've
heard from a a civil rights leader, Sherrilyn Ifill, say a
few years ago. She said, sometimes we'll get to
see the harvest, but often we have to be the ones planting the
seeds. And this echoes kind of this

(09:12):
ancient Greek proverb that says a society grows great when
people plant trees who shade. They who shade they know they
will never sit in. So, yeah, we may not see the
results of this work tomorrow. We may not see it in four years.
We may not see it in the next 10.
But we can keep the ball moving down the field, right?
And I, I'm more optimistic than ever that I think the work that

(09:35):
we're doing today, including thethis wonderful speakers that
we're going to hear from in justa few minutes, is really laying
the foundation for an economy that is stronger, more just and
more lasting. So let's get to it a little bit.
I want to introduce some of my favorite people, some of the
organizations I respect most in this work of kind of job quality

(09:58):
practice. We have Ellen Frank Miller,
who's the founder and CEO of Workforce and Organizational
Research Center work for short. We have Scotty Nash, who's the
director at Talent Rewire at FSG, and we have Cindy Williams,
Cindy Williams, Executive Director of Work Life
Partnership. Thank you all for being here and
being willing to take the time. I want to start with each of you

(10:21):
just talking a little bit about your organization and your work
and also offer you an opportunity to to talk a little
bit about why in these challenging times, you think
this work and conversation continues to matter.
And Ellen, I think I'll start with you.
Hi, Well, I'm so delighted to behere.
Thank you for having me. And at the at work, we envision

(10:43):
A thriving economy where every worker has a job worth having.
And so as I really appreciated what you just said, Matt, about
the idea that sometimes we reap and sometimes we sow, and the
idea that we're planting trees we may never sit in the shade
of. I've been doing this work for 35
years and there have been advances and in some ways,

(11:05):
sometimes people come up with a brand new idea, OK, talking
about that for 30 years. But I do think that, you know,
the the answer to a lot of the division that we see in this
country is work with dignity, work that supports, you know,
people's economic well-being. And if you have those things, I
think we don't need the kind of scapegoating that's going on

(11:27):
because it's nobody's fault, because people have what they
need. Thanks, Alan.
Scotty, I'll turn to you next. Thank you, Matt.
Thank you also for the introduction this morning and
the time to reflect on how difficult it is right now.
As Matt said, I'm with FSG. We are an organization that
works with companies and foundations to understand and

(11:50):
implement equitable systems change and within FSGI work with
with an initiative called TalentRewire.
And we take that idea of equitable systems change and
work with companies and help employers think about corporate
transformation and how do they do a better job at centre and
centering employee voice to create quality jobs for their

(12:13):
frontline and entry level workers.
Really helping companies think about what is culture and
readiness for change for people to attain quality jobs.
And I think that's really resonant with some of what Matt
was talking about earlier. I think it matters now more than
ever because we're in a time where there's a lot of political

(12:33):
and technology upheaval and change in society.
And we need to remember that thegreatest strength in companies
is not the technology that is a tool, but it's the people who
bring the tools to life. And we want employers to think
about listening deeply to employees because it's an act of
engagement, it's an act of trust, it's grounded in equity,

(12:56):
and it's about helping people feel seen and heard and
empowered to grow. And ultimately, innovation in
corporations of any size is going to come by listening to
the humans who are doing the work.
And it will help resilience in this complex time.
So I'm going to end there. Thanks, Scotty.

(13:16):
That was beautiful, Cindy. Thanks, Matt, and thanks
everyone who joined us today. I'm excited for this
conversation. And I echo Scotty's note.
Matt, really, I appreciated yourintroduction, how you queued us
up today. So I'm Cindy Williams.
I'm the executive director at Work Life Partnership.
We are a nonprofit social enterprise that serves

(13:38):
businesses and their employees across the country.
The core of what we do is help typically low and moderate
income workers overcome any kindof challenge to workplace
stability. We do that work because we
believe firmly that work should be foundational to achieving any
further economic mobility for individuals and their families.

(13:59):
At the same time that we work one-on-one with individual
employees to clear obstacles to stable work, we also work very,
very closely with business leaders to help them understand
what is happening inside of their workforce.
And we do that very intentionally because really our
why is to influence business practice change.
It is to create awareness and then prompt action from

(14:20):
employers because they really dohave an opportunity to change
outcomes for their employees. So as I, I reflected on the
question of, you know, why have this conversation right now, I
went back to some basic data andand it's not new data.
So while there are a lot of factors that make it feel very

(14:42):
urgent in the moment, there are still 38 million Alice
households in this country. And Alice household is an asset
limited income constrained employed household.
That's 38138 million households that are working really hard
every single week and don't haveenough money at the end of the
month to pay for everything thatthey they have on their on the

(15:02):
table to pay for. And there's a growing need.
There's a lot of changing dynamics in our policy and our
government funding and there's agrowing need for those
households and those families that isn't getting smaller.
There's reports every single week about continued pressure on
nonprofits to respond to an increased need.

(15:23):
So I think there's just this opportunity in this moment for
business leaders to really thinkabout what role they can play in
improving outcomes for these hard working families across the
country. So that's that's really why I
think this conversation is so vital.
Thanks, Cindy, and thanks for that data.
And I agree business leadership is needed now, now more than

(15:47):
ever on this issue. So we're going to start getting
into the conversation a little bit.
The more about just the challenges, the unique
challenges that it comes with working with large businesses.
And I promise all of you who areinterested in maybe thinking
about small and medium, medium sized businesses, we're going to
circle back around that at the end of today's conversation.

(16:08):
But most of today's conversationwill be focused on big business.
So I think if we ask a lot of people at this event today about
the challenges of getting big business to improve jobs for
their workers, you know, we'd likely hear a number of
different comments about, you know, kind of shareholder
capitalism, the short term focusof corporations.

(16:31):
What Zayn of Tom would say is a corporate culture that often
treats workers and labor as a cost to be minimized rather than
an asset to be maximized. A little bit of what you were
getting at Scotty in terms of companies resource being
greatest resource being the people and getting more
companies to adopt that line of thinking.
And of course, this imbalance ofpower, I think that we see

(16:53):
between between workers and labor and companies.
And those are undoubtedly factors.
So I don't want to dismiss them and I want to acknowledge them.
But we have seen a lot of companies that choose to do
differently in spite of those dynamics.
And in some ways, those are the things that are more visible to
see and blame when there's a lotmore going on with large
companies that may be hidden or less clear that are barriers to

(17:17):
change. So that's part of what I want to
start to unpack with you all in this kind of first round of of
questions and discussion. So Ellen, I'm going to start
with you again. You know, work's research and
work has looked a lot at how youengage large businesses and
making changes to improve jobs and to improve the workplace for
their workers. So in your experience, what are

(17:39):
some of the big challenges you've seen in getting
businesses to invest in initiatives and ideas that
improve jobs and and support workers?
And we're a team of organizational researchers and
sociologists. So, you know, we really are
looking at how businesses are operating, you know, as an
Organism, an Organism made-up ofpeople.
And there's a a few things that I want to highlight which the

(18:02):
first one is that when you're talking about large companies,
you are talking about stakeholders who are navigating,
you know, incredibly complex systems.
Those of us who are not part of a large corporation, it's a
little bit hard to get visibility into how those
complex systems are structured and what the pathways are to
decision making and potential barriers.

(18:25):
So I think that, you know, that sort of first piece of
recognizing that it seems so straightforward.
My person's excited and why aren't they adopting, you know,
has a lot to do with the fact that this was, you know, a very
complicated system that people have to make their way through
to get to. Yes.
Secondly, I would, I would talk about incentive alignment.
And this is often quite hidden. I think a lot of times we see

(18:48):
organizations that are trying towork to make jobs better and
that's that's the type of research that we do.
We see them come with a really strong business case for why
companies will benefit from taking whatever step is or using
whatever program it is. And the problem is that a strong
business case is not enough. I am so sorry to be the
deliverer of this bad news, but we need to have strategic

(19:12):
alignment with where the business is at.
So a business that says, you know, our highest priority for
the success is that we get our supply chain, you know,
organized so that we're able to,you know, get, get product into
the country when we need it. Talking to them about turnover,
even though your, your offering is incredibly strong at reducing

(19:33):
turnover, it's going to be very hard to get hurt.
That said, if that's the goal ofthe overall organization, but a
division that you're interested in is experiencing high
turnover, you may have an opportunity.
So the understanding and navigating the complexity is
really difficult and you are often going to be most
successful when the stakeholdersthat are close to the decision

(19:56):
makers are feeling a lot of pain.
So not to exploit people in their in their difficulties, but
when you see somebody who is in a lot of pain and they have a
responsibility to deal with a big problem, that's a good
opportunity because then they will have more chances of
successfully navigating a complex system because they're
being held accountable. And the, the third piece of it I

(20:18):
just want to end with is that timing matters.
And it stinks, right? Because we're ready to go now.
But if an organization is not ready to take a step.
It, it's going to be, you know, an uphill battle if the
stakeholder or the, you know, the, the person who you are
trying to, you know, engage and,and to become a champion is

(20:39):
retiring in a year. You may not know this, right,
but they're just not moving and they're kind of delaying and you
don't understand why. If they're retiring in a year,
are they going to take on something that's going to have a
two to three-year success horizon?
Probably not. And it's not because what you're
doing is invaluable or importantto the company.
It's because individual incentive alignment plays out
too. So I will stop there.

(21:01):
Thanks, Alan. Cindy, you've been collaborating
with a lot of very large companies recently at Work Life,
providing services and supports to their workers.
What have you been learning kindof around what's challenging
around engaging them in those services and then getting them
to this place of practice changeof how they kind of design work

(21:23):
and support their workers? Thanks Matt.
And I think kind of builds on Allen's answer to a large
extent. So there's there's three things
that we've observed in our efforts to work with large
enterprise sized business in twosituations.
Work life was launched inside ofthe workforce innovation teams

(21:45):
of those businesses and by and large had really strong success
working in pilot, reaching lots of workers, having high
utilization, delivering high impact, meeting the demand of
large workforces, diverse and spread out workforces.
But at the point that the programming was looking to maybe

(22:07):
go full scale and spread across the entire organization and
shift from workforce innovation to HR, it's stalled.
And it's stalled because once you get to that space and you're
outside of the innovation team, now you have a big group of
stakeholders who have to all come to agreement around what
the business priorities are. And unfortunately, getting that

(22:30):
consensus is quite difficult. And usually the consensus is
going to come around, as Ellen eloquently said, the workplace
priorities. What is it that is really a key
initiative for that business right now.
And if, if you don't fit into that, no matter how strong your
case is, no matter how much impact you've delivered, then it
it may not go where you want it to go.

(22:50):
And so I think we saw that happen in two instances, which
really I think informed are thinking about how we do
approach businesses. But the next piece I'd say is
that there's unfortunately in very large businesses often a
lack of understanding of what employees are really dealing
with. And so there's this big remove

(23:11):
that I think prohibits the business from really making
those workforce innovations a priority.
And honestly, even though your managers, your frontline
managers, your on the ground HR team may have a good sight line
into what's happening with the workers in different locations,
your senior level HR leaders arethey're, they're generally more

(23:31):
focused on compliance and driving forward the C suites
initiatives than they are necessarily on workforce and
workforce innovation. And so you have to kind of
factor that in that there's justthis disconnect and dissonance
between what's really happening with workers and the the folks
who are really driving the priorities for the business.
And I think there's also this piece that comes into play with

(23:52):
just capacity. We met with a number of CHROS as
part of a project that we've worked on over the last several
years. And the thing we actually heard
resoundingly was that when considering a new initiative,
it's not necessarily money, but time that drives the decision
making. And so I think when those
business leaders are deciding where they're going to put their

(24:13):
time, they end up putting the time into those business
priorities. And the last thing I would say
is that cost matters still in another pilot that we ran with a
large franchise organization several years ago, they had a
pool of money to start launchingour services.
Everything was going great, highimpact, high usage, all those

(24:34):
good things, those usual measures for success for work
life, partnership. When that pot of money ran out,
they couldn't prioritize fundingit.
And so the services were not able to kind of continue
forward. And so I think money does
matter. Even though we aim to keep our
costs very competitive for an enterprise business, less than a
dollar per person per month, it's still it is still an

(24:56):
expense. And so it has to be considered
as a factor when you're asking businesses to make a decision
about even the most amazing offering that you can put
forward. Thanks, Cindy.
Scotty, I think, I think you hear kind of this, this notion
of culture coming up in some respects as a challenge as well.

(25:19):
And as we talked a little bit out up front, I think the
mindsets often times in large companies or in corporate
America is not always open to this type of job quality work.
I wonder if you can talk a little bit around these
challenges of mindset and culture and kind of what you've
observed and learns at Talent Rewire.

(25:42):
Yeah, thank you, Matt. I was holding on to what Ellen
said when she said the business case just isn't enough.
Like we all want to pretend thatthe business will, you know, the
profits will drive the business and there's something to be said
for the bottom line. However, we're still all human.
And you asked about culture and I believe, and at Talent Rewire,

(26:04):
we talk about how mindset and mental models is really that
deepest part of culture. And it's not just what people
say, it's what they value. It's what they truly believe.
It's a lens in which people can see the world.
It's the silent rules that we all follow and the stories we
tell ourselves about what's possible and what's not
possible. And that happens at every level

(26:25):
of an organization. And The thing is, is what makes
that part of culture even more complex is that mindset doesn't
live by itself. It's not in isolation, but it
has to do with the relationships.
It has to do with the power dynamics that are in the
organization. And it has to do with the folks
who feel seen and heard and the folks who don't, and all the

(26:47):
things that impact people and how people are impacted.
So when we're talking about organizational change, just as
Ellen was talking about, you know, the business case, we do
often times focus on that visible part of an organization.
We talk about how policies can fix it.
We talk about how programs can fix it.
If we shift resources, we can fix it.

(27:09):
The reality is, is that the change is actually going to
happen at those layers that we don't see.
So as I mentioned, relationshipsand power dynamics among the
people in the organization and the mindsets that individuals
hold is really what's driving the everyday behavior that is
ultimately going to drive that long term success.
So I'm going to share an example.

(27:31):
We worked with a company that was more of a mid sized company
and the CEO of the company who founded the company was having
some aha moments about hiring and people who were working and
access to jobs. And so he talked about with his
HR team and the hiring managers that he wanted to remove

(27:53):
barriers to employment. So they changed in practice
their job descriptions. And sometime later, what they
realized is that the hiring practices weren't actually
changing. And they weren't changing
because managers who were doing the hiring didn't have the same
sense of why or purpose that theCEO did.

(28:16):
And it's not that they didn't agree with them.
It's not that they didn't want to.
But we all default to our own biases.
You know, it's, it's part of what we do for comfort.
What we, we confirm what we already know to be true and what
we already know works. So we worked with that leader to
dive into sharing his mindset and thinking about why his story

(28:39):
and his purpose mattered. And so Cindy, you talked about
this idea of, of people needing to align around the same
initiative, the same idea, the same innovation.
And so when we talk about mindset shift at Talent Rewire,
we've actually come up with a handful of ways that really
support somebody helping to shift minds in their

(29:03):
organization. So I'm going to just briefly
share, Matt, those four. The first one is about education
and storytelling. So if you believe in something
deeply, it's really important that you lean into sharing your
why and that you get the storiesout there of your why and the
stories out there of other people who you've seen impacted

(29:24):
by your why. So if you want to change your
hiring practices, tell them why.Not just what or how, but tell
them why that matters. And then share examples from
people who you know were impacted by that change.
We talked about proximity. Get close.
If you are a large organization,you're really many layers away

(29:44):
from people who are in entry level and frontline roles.
And so don't keep them at arm's length, but build relationship
and conversation with people whoare going to be impacted by the
change in the culture that you want to make in your
organization. We talk about space for
skepticism. Not everybody's going to be on
the same page all the time, but we know that our why can be

(30:06):
rooted and stronger by understanding what people don't
understand. So when they come and ask you
questions, opening up and askingfurther questions of curiosity
about helping to understand whatthey're thinking so that you in
turn can help them understand what you're thinking and come to
more common ground. And the last piece I'd say is
around peer accountability. And that's really hard in

(30:29):
today's public facing world in the political climate that we're
in. But it's really important to
create relationships with peoplein your organization and people
cross organization who've valuesthat are aligned with yours so
that you can think about the fact that you're not making the
change alone. So you can think about it within
your organization, but you can think about it with with

(30:50):
counterparts and other organizations.
So we want to go back to what Simon Sinek says and it's start
with your why To help change those values and mindsets and
cultures so that people can understand what you're thinking
and not just do the what the hell?
I love that framework, Scotty. Thank you for sharing that.
And we're going to come back in a in a minute.

(31:12):
I think to unpack a little bit more around kind of like worker
and employee vote voice kind of fits into that framework and
fits into kind of the, the practice change.
Ellen, I want to pivot just briefly for a minute, but stay
on this kind of topic of, of culture and mindset for a minute
as well and go a different direction.

(31:33):
So, you know, I think you and I both share this affinity for,
for worker and employee ownership.
And I think we also see opportunities for how big
companies could be doing more inthat respect to, to share
financial stake with their workers.
So I want to ask you about that a little bit in the context of
today's conversation around likewhat opportunities employee

(31:55):
ownership offers and kind of this with large companies and
large corporations and where youcan see challenges.
But I think as we both know too,employee ownership works best
when it's, it's surrounded by a culture that really lifts up
worker ideas, worker participation.

(32:16):
So it's also about culture and mindset.
So I wonder if you could both speak to the opportunities and
challenges of employee ownershipin the context of large
companies and corporations and where you see challenges there,
But then also maybe talk a little bit about the the
critical culture piece that thatthat you've done some work on.
Well, I, I think one of the big challenges is awareness and

(32:38):
understanding of what employee ownership is.
Employee ownership doesn't mean that I sell my company and I'm
out, it can, but employee ownership can mean that I have
some element, some stake in the business while others remain in
charge. So I am an employee owner, but I
have not, you know, fully taken over.
So when we think about large companies, you know, there are a

(33:00):
range of structures for becomingemployee owned.
One of the the challenges is that some of these are extremely
complex and and highly regulated.
So an employee stock ownership plan or an ESOP regulated by the
Department of Labor under ERISA,the Internal Revenue Code.
So it it has a lot of complexity.
There are some big benefits to businesses, but I think that is

(33:23):
one of the challenges is that people don't necessarily
understand and have the awareness of how those those
structures work. And particularly with large
companies, you know, where thereare benefits to to them beyond
the, the wonderful things we talk about with respect to
workforce and, and outcomes. But even just the, you know,
the, the tax advantages, for example.

(33:45):
And there's also, you know, sortof, I think misinformation out
there about, you know, whether or not being employee owned, you
know, is, is beneficial. But there's good research that
supports that it that it really is in terms of the
opportunities. You know, addressing wealth
inequality is incredibly challenging.
But with employee ownership, folks have a stake in the

(34:06):
outcome of the business. And it is an incredibly powerful
way to build wealth when you area, a business owner.
We know that employee ownership from the research leads to
better quality jobs. Employee owned companies tend to
pay more. They tend to lay folks off last
when there are tough times. And what we know what we're

(34:27):
talking about today is that improved job quality leads to
better financial outcomes for the business.
So, you know, it's, it's an incredibly powerful, powerful
tool. And in kind of getting at what
Scotty was saying about culture,you know, culture is a is a real
engine for how businesses do things.
And, you know, as, as social scientists, we think about

(34:49):
culture as a definition of this is how we do things around here.
So this is how we as an organization do things around
here. This is our business's way of
doing business. And the we, who is the we, the,
the we organizations are organisms made of people.
The we is both the business management, how the business
does things as well as the employees and how people do

(35:12):
things. So when we think about, you know
what, where does culture come from?
Well, culture comes from behaviors.
It comes from the behavior of the companies.
So for example, we we talk in terms of what ignites an
ownership mindset that Scotty was talking about mindsets and
and it has to do with businessesdoing things differently than
they generally do. Changing the way businesses do

(35:35):
things changes the way employeesthink about their their jobs and
what is, you know, wanted of them and, and what their role is
in the business's success. When my mindset changes, my
behaviors change and it's those ownership behaviors like making
suggestions to reduce costs or helping my Co worker when I see
them making a mistake. Those ownership behaviors come

(35:57):
from the way I think about it. Do I, am I an owner of this
business? And what you referred to Matt
about, you know, the, the fact that creating ownership stakes.
So the financial incentive, you know, that is a, that is a lever
that does have some evidence behind it that it will change
behaviors. But when those rewards are far
in the future, as they tend to be when you become a business

(36:19):
owner, you know, through an ESOPor whatever it might be, the,
the, the strength of that effectis, is weakened substantially.
So when we when we say that financial incentives, OK, you're
an owner now, you will behave ina way that makes the business
better. It's not enough.
What there is unfortunately, youknow, relationships that we were
talking about that you cannot neglect that if you want to make

(36:42):
the most of the significant investment that most companies
make to become employee owned. And what that requires the
business to do things differently so that employees
will think differently with different mindsets and behave
differently. And I feel like I'm given a lot
of bad news today, but there is no magical ownership culture
fairy that is going to wave her magic wand and transform your

(37:04):
culture. The business people managers
need to manage differently so that employees think differently
and behave differently. So I, I think that culture, you
know, is a, is a pivotal piece and it's much harder to get your
hands around. But that's why I know we're
going to be talking about measurement.
That's why really clear and precise measurement of the
factors that create an ownershipculture, you know, is very

(37:26):
powerful. And when people say we have to
transform our culture, that's incredibly difficult.
So when we can have a really actionable diagnostic and road
map that says how to do that, what steps to take that that
creates the opportunity for realchange.
Thanks, Alan. Yeah, I think, you know, when we
look at employee owned companieswhen it when it's designed and

(37:49):
done well, right, which isn't always the case, but it's very
often the case. What you see is a culture where
employees tend to have a little bit more autonomy to be able to
go about their day-to-day work, to be able to innovate, to be
able to solve problems. There's a culture of
transparency when it comes to the financials and there's
avenues and and different formaland informal mechanisms for how

(38:12):
employees can kind of share their ideas and perspectives
around making the company perspective successful.
So this gets a little bit, I think to kind of this employee
worker voice part of the equation that I think we all
recognize is, is absolutely critical in kind of and, and
pushing change within companies of any size.

(38:35):
You know, the voices and experiences and, and
perspectives of employees is, issuch an power, powerful catalyst
for making that happen. So let's talk a little bit more
about that piece of the puzzle and what you all are learning
there and, and how we can think about approaching and in this
context of, of large businesses.So Scotty, I want to come back

(38:57):
to you a little bit kind of on on this point, talk a little bit
more about kind of your systems change approach to talent rewire
and maybe give us an example of how that works in practice,
including how you build in worker voice and and perspective
into those efforts. Yeah.

(39:18):
You know, Ellen, I like what yousaid.
Employee ownership is about listening to employees and we do
wish that there were probably more folks out there who were
thinking about employee ownership.
And at the same time, there are a lot of ways to build in
systems and structures to listento employees.
And we know again, it can't justbe what we say at the surface of

(39:39):
systems change with a policy change or a practice.
We're going to collect a survey.We're going to say that from a
policy perspective, once a quarter we're going to collect
this input because what we foundis that even when you're
centering the employee in the way you think you're doing
things, the system isn't gonna change if you're not actually

(40:00):
building the culture around it. And so when we talk about
systems change, you know, I mentioned earlier there's this
idea of the practices and policies and resources that are
that visible change. But then there are those power
dynamics and the relationships that ultimately sit at a surface
where people can have those conversations.
So it's a little bit deeper and then, you know, the mindset

(40:23):
pieces. And so when we talk about a
systems change and a true systems change, we do talk about
all three of those levels. And we also say that we need to
center employees in all of thoseconversations.
So often times leaders and companies will say, you know
what, I am gonna give that survey, that employee engagement
survey, I'm gonna find out what they really think about this

(40:45):
work. And Ellen is a data person.
But as we know, not all of the data is being shared.
Not all of the data is actually being collected.
So Talent Rewire was looking a number of years ago at doing
some research around looking at employee engagement and
understanding employee voice more through employee

(41:06):
engagement. And we realized, as I think many
companies do, that actually the numbers of people responding to
the employee engagement surveys and different mechanisms of
sharing voice was going down. So not as many people were being
represented and the answers thatwere being shared.
So we decided to take a step back and we said what is

(41:28):
necessary in an organization foran employee to want to share?
For an employee to know that they are in a space that is safe
for them to be able to share. And through our research, we
really found that there were five enabling conditions for
people to be able to feel confident and comfortable and
able to share how they felt about the workplace, how they

(41:51):
felt about the practices and policies that were being
implemented. That they could look at that
power dynamic and relationship aspect of the work and say, I
can talk to these people and that my voice will be heard and
that I do have power in the organization.
So we talk about shifting the narrative.
And so with that first enabling condition, the idea is to

(42:13):
remember that the people who aredoing the work are the people
who have the answer to the work.They're the people who are
experts in understanding, delivering, and implementing
what needs to happen. They're the contributors to
success. We've heard a lot lately about
our second enabling condition, which is psychological safety.
The reality is we wouldn't stillbe talking about it so much if

(42:34):
it was happening everywhere thatwe were and in all the companies
that we were working in. It's really important to do team
checks and, and vertical checks and horizontal checks that
people feel comfortable sharing ideas, raising concerns, taking
risks, knowing that they're not going to be punished, that
they're not going to be dismissed, but that they have

(42:55):
the opportunity to raise questions.
Psychological safety doesn't mean agreeing with everything
that your your boss says. We talked about authentic and
executive and management buy in and that the idea is that
everybody at every level of an organization needs to believe
that these things are true, thatthe employee needs to be
centered. So ACEO may say it and a

(43:17):
frontline employees might say it, but if everybody in between
that hierarchical structure doesn't believe that employee
voices center to the culture andto change, then it's not going
to happen. We talk about listening for
understanding. I think that there was some
conversation earlier about this idea that, you know, I mentioned
the idea of curious questions. Go into a conversation and ask

(43:40):
with true curiosity. Listen here and don't go into
the conversation with all the answers, but try to understand
what is truly being said. Try to understand how people are
really experiencing the work andthe last piece of society about
following through on commitmentsthat if you implement a survey,

(44:00):
if you have a focus group, if you have some interviews and you
learn some information, it's really essential that you report
back what what you hear. And if you can't support what's
being asked of you, letting people know why.
When you get the information andyou don't report back, we
actually know that culture erodes.
So if you're going to survey, ifyou're going to focus group, if

(44:23):
you're going to have one-on-one conversations, make sure you
follow up with the company and let people know across the
organization what you've learnedand what what's going to happen.
The last thing I'll say is that these aspects are not check
boxes. They are slow change.
They are culture change and it takes time and it takes
revisiting. It's not going to be a one and

(44:44):
done. So I encourage you to think
about the one small next step you can take and revisiting
frequently. Thanks guys.
There's so much, so much great wisdom in there in terms of
thinking about capturing worker voice and responding to it.
Cindy, I want to turn to you a little bit now to get your

(45:05):
thoughts on this matter. You know, what has been your
approach at work life to kind ofgathering and communicating data
and stories that leadership and management that companies need
to have to recognize that there's a problem as well as an
opportunity for change? Yeah.
So one of work life partnershipscore values is data

(45:27):
storytelling. And that's very intentional
because as I said at the top arereal.
Why is to encourage businesses to do things differently, to
change the practices that they put in place for their
employees. But in order to do that, they
need to be close to their employees.
They can't be just making decisions in a vacuum.

(45:49):
Unfortunately, a lot of businesses are relying on survey
data that's not actionable or orthey may not know what to do
with maybe it's actionable, but they're not sure where to go
with it or they're relying on their benefits brokers.
We could do a whole webinar on the intersection of job quality
and benefits brokers, but so I'mgoing to park that one for

(46:12):
today, but talk a little bit about how we've thought about
encouraging that practice changewith businesses at Work Life
Partnership. So one of the advantages that we
have is real proximity to employees in a business.
They come to us, the employee comes to us when they need help
solving a problem. And so when we're in that moment

(46:34):
with that individual, we are able to hear from them directly
in a moment that they're experiencing something, whatever
that thing is. This is what's going on.
This is what is distracting me at work.
This is what is causing me to call in sick and I need help
resolving it. And we gather all of that data
and we bring it back to employers on a monthly basis and

(46:57):
on a quarterly basis, we talk about it and we say this is what
we're seeing with your work workforce.
That's very different than what a business gets in a survey.
A survey can't tell a business what percentage of their
employees is living unstably housed or experienced an
experiencing an undue burden because of child care or elder
care. And that's what our data brings

(47:18):
forward to to the business. And in fact, one of those large
companies I mentioned earlier, one of their biggest whys to
work with Work Life Partnership in the beginning was because
they knew they had a data problem and they felt like we're
going to get a much better take on what's really happening with
our workers by working with WorkLife Partnership.

(47:39):
And it's sort of this hidden asset that businesses get when
they work with us because we bring it back and we say, this
is what we helped people with this this, this quarter, this is
what they came to us with. And I think that becomes very,
very impactful in terms of not just helping the businesses
understand, but then define solutions and take action to it.
And so it's really become one ofthe greatest tools that we use

(48:02):
in driving practice change at those businesses.
And, and honestly, it's real. I'm sometimes surprised at how
quickly businesses react when they see what's really
happening. They say, Oh my goodness, I
didn't realize I have a huge transportation problem because
this facility is, you know, kindof in a rural area.
And so we've got to figure out how we're going to keep our

(48:25):
folks from quitting because theydon't have transportation.
So employers really do when theyknow what's really happening and
they can get close to it, whether because they are
approximate themselves using what Scotty just outlined, which
is an incredibly powerful framework or because they're
using some other outside sourcesof data.
I think that's the marriage of really trying to get businesses

(48:46):
to to make the kinds of job quality actions we want them to
make priorities, not just the supply chain piece, but the
actual workforce innovation thatwe want to see that's going to
create better outcomes for for employees.
And I would say that, you know, one of the reasons I kind of
always wonder about whether they're small and medium sized

(49:07):
businesses are faster to move isbecause they're closer to the
problems. They see them more on a
day-to-day basis. We work with a 1200 person
manufacturing company with facilities in four locations.
And when they see a problem, they act.
They don't just sit and think about maybe in 2027 we'll think
about that problem. They really do ACT because

(49:29):
they're they're closer to it. And I think again, that's one of
the challenges for big, big or enterprise businesses.
They're just, they're, they're so much further from it and the
folks who see it are so much further from the decision makers
that it's, it's really challenging to start to solve
those problems for workers. Yeah, thanks, Cindy.
I mean, I, I completely agree. The power of, of stories from

(49:52):
workers is, is incredible. I, I think you all are probably
familiar with this and I'm not sure how this person got the
data, but the new, the, the, theCEO of Ford, I saw recently
learned that a lot of his entry level workers working full time
at Ford were also having to pickup like night shifts at local

(50:14):
warehouses or, or, or other places.
And, and that really caused a lot of concern for him.
So he decided to, to raise wagesas a result of this.
And this has probably been goingon for a long time, right?
But it was the first he'd kind of been exposed or kind of
learned about what some of his frontline workers were
experiencing. And at least in this one

(50:35):
instance that was, that was the catalyst for change.
But it gets up these issues of like proximity and, and the
disconnect between leadership and what's kind of happening
with workers, right? That has to be solved for in
large companies. Ellen, I want to stay with you a
little bit on this, this question of employee and worker
voice and kind of surveys. I think, you know, I, I've heard

(50:59):
so many large companies when asked about how they engage
workers and their employees say,well, we have an annual survey.
You know, if I had a nickel for every time I heard that, I'd be,
I'd be a rich person at this point.
But I think like any tool or instrument, there are surveys
that work and ones that don't. For those that are supporting
companies with this type of kindof engagement and data

(51:20):
collection, what do you think isimportant for them to keep in
mind and kind of know about how to go about that?
I want to come back to somethingthat Cindy said, but I, I think
you had something really important.
When we talk about surveys that work, surveys that don't,
they're absolutely bad surveys out there.
There's no question about it. But often times it's a question
of are you using the right tool for the job?

(51:43):
If you want to paint a wall, do not pick up a hammer, right?
And so with a survey, if you want to, you know, understand
somebody's, you know, healthy eating habits, don't ask them
about their interest in weightlifting.
So a key piece is are you askingthe right questions in order to
get the right data that will allow you to take the right
action? And, and Cindy is absolutely

(52:04):
right. You know, as we are mixed
methods researchers at work. And that means that we use
numbers and we use words. So we use surveys and we use all
the kinds of qualitative methodslike interviews and focus
groups, etcetera, because surveys can tell us how many,
how much they can tell us a magnitude, but they can't tell
us why. And we often have to make very
difficult choices about surveys,right?

(52:26):
So when Cindy was saying, you know, we, we don't know that
folks are having an undue childcare burden.
That's right. Because when we think about
making surveys accessible and getting the best possible
response rates, you know, we know from from research and from
experience, we got to have 5 minutes and we can't ask every
question. And that's why it's so important

(52:46):
to pair them, to pair those findings.
And also as you were saying, to have those regular check
insurance to provide support. That's part of what we do with
our diagnostics is once we have identified the results and work
with the company, you know, to create a road map, we meet
quarterly both as an accountability buddy, but also
to understand how are things going and where are more
resources that needed. And when we talk about surveys

(53:10):
being actionable, there are a couple ways to look at this.
You know, the the first one is, you know, are we asking
questions that point to direct things that can that we can do.
So for example, we on our worthwhile jobs index, we asked
the question, you know, my company wants to get worker
views on important things. So that's an actionable
question. If your folks are saying, Nope,

(53:32):
they don't want to get our views, well, the action is very
clear. You need to, you need to get
their views and you need to makeit clear that you are actually
getting views. So making that that
communication that Scotty was talking about, not just that we
gathered the data, but we come back with those results and we
come back now an A+ is we see these results.
We want your feedback on how we can address that.

(53:56):
AB Plus is we see these results and here are the things we're
going to do to try to improve and these are things we can't
do. So again, the worker voice on
the solution is just as important as the worker voice on
the diagnostic. When we talk about, you know,
are there good surveys and bad surveys?
I would say many surveys are mixed.
So a very large, my organizationhas a very well known engagement

(54:17):
survey. And one of those questions is I
have a best friend at work. Now I can tell you why they're
asking this question because we know from decades of research
that what we call perceived Co worker support is a strong
predictor of lower turnover, higher engagement, all of the
things we care about. The problem with that question
is that if I don't have a best friend at work, my employer

(54:40):
really can't do anything about that.
And if I'm trying to keep a survey incredibly short so that
it's accessible to my workforce and that my supervisors are
going to support people taking the time to answer that survey.
I don't want to waste a questionon something that, you know, my,
my company can't do anything with in terms of accessibility.
You know, as I was talking abouttime, you know, some people

(55:02):
think that's a 10 minute survey.10 minutes is a long time.
Think about a YouTube video. You see a YouTube video that's
10 minutes long, you're going toput it off till later.
And that's often why we get low response rates.
We need to be mindful of the accessibility in terms of how
folks can actually respond to a survey.
So we worked with a a large company that had multiple

(55:23):
warehouse locations. And in talking to managers at
each of them, we, we tried to understand, so how do you
distribute these surveys to, to get your folks to respond?
And they said, always send emails to everybody.
Now this is a warehouse, right? Folks are up on cranes this
high. They are on lines, breaking down
boxes of pencils and putting them into separate boxes.

(55:45):
They're not on e-mail. And even worse, they don't even
have emails. And when we ask that question,
like, so how do you address it when you're folks, you know, the
people who aren't at computers all day or may not even have
e-mail addresses? And there's this pause.
And this goes to I think what what you all were saying.
So what Cindy and Scotty were saying about what is our, you
know, where, where do we sit? How do we understand the world

(56:06):
did not occur that that folks weren't on e-mail, that they
didn't have an e-mail address and that allowed them to say,
what do we need to do to make this accessible?
Language is another important one, right?
When we have bilingual workforces, it's really
important to do that. And the other thing I will say
about, you know, the the right tool for the right job, the
right questions matter not just in terms of what we ask, but how

(56:29):
we're asking and what our goal is.
So for example, you know, on ourworthwhile job survey where
we're trying to understand what we call perceived supervisor
support, which is strongly correlated with turnover and
engagement and burnout, We askedthe question.
I can count on my supervisor to help me when I have a problem.
So that's certainly actionable, right?
If people are saying no to that,you need to get to your

(56:51):
supervisors and understand, you know, why aren't they forming
that connection that allows people to then feel
psychologically safe, as Scotty was saying, to come to them to
say I have a problem and I need help.
OK, So that is the right question that is fit for purpose
when when that's our goal is to understand and improve perceived
supervisor support. Now, Matt, we were talking about

(57:13):
employee ownership a moment ago,OK?
Whether or not my supervisor hasmy back is actually not at all
related to whether or not I willthink and act like an owner.
So the question we ask on our ownership impact index is my
supervisor talks to me about thebest ways to do the work.
So this again is, do I want a hammer or do I want a

(57:34):
paintbrush? It depends on what I'm trying to
do. If I'm trying to increase
supervisor support because I'm focused on turnover and
engagement, etcetera, that's theanswer that I want so I can take
action. If I'm trying to get my folks to
think and act like owners, then I need to measure the things
that are known to generate that ownership mindset, to ignite
that ownership mindset and whether or not my supervisor

(57:56):
collaborates with me to get thatinput on the best ways to do the
work. And of course, if I'm talking
about the best ways to do the work, it suggests I have
autonomy. That's the right way to use
those data. And then, of course, when you
get a, you know, a survey response and people are saying
no, and I, I can't count on my supervisor to help me.
The first thing you can do is try to understand why, you know,

(58:17):
what's going on. Where is that happening?
But if you want to understand what people need in order to
feel that they could ask their supervisor for help when they
have a problem, that's where we bring in the qualitative methods
to talk to people and and get their views.
Thanks, Alan. So we're rounding the corner

(58:38):
here a little bit. And so if you have some
questions, please get those in the the the question box as soon
as possible. Cindy, I want to come back to
you for a second. I think for for many people, you
know, working with a large company or even a corporation,
it's like, where do I even begin?
How do I get my foot in the door?

(58:58):
Where do I, where do I start theconversation?
How do I get in the place where I can even start the
conversation? So what are some of the things
you suggest people think about in their approach to kind of
engaging an A large employer at at the initial stages,
recognizing that there's probably no one-size-fits-all to

(59:19):
this this question? Yeah, if I had cracked the code,
Matt, you know, I think that would be amazing.
So I I'm not. You're right.
There's no one-size-fits-all andI think there's a lot of
variables including how you get introduced to a company and you
know, when you get introduced toyour to the company.

(59:39):
Ellen talked about timing earlier.
I think that's really, really a critical factor when you're
thinking about how you start that conversation.
But you know, I think there's three pieces of advice that I
would put forward an answer to that question.
And I'll frame this by saying whether you're selling something
to the business like work life, we are a social enterprise, we

(59:59):
sell our services to businesses or you're approaching a business
with a practice change that may not be something that has
dollars associated with it. Let's say you are stand behind
skills based hiring and you wantto help that employer set up
skills based hiring that there isn't necessarily a financial
investment there, but there is atime investment.
And so, so when I when I talk about sort of this business

(01:00:20):
development or engagement process, I'm thinking about.
All the ways that we might engage a large business in a
practice change, whether it's, you know, there's money changing
hands or not. I think the first thing that's
relevant to this particular conversation is define what big
business means to you. There is an enormous difference
between an enterprise business with 300,000 employees in the US

(01:00:42):
and a 10,000 person hospital system.
They are very, very different beasts and they need to be
tackled differently. And so when you are thinking
about the initiative that you'reputting forward and you're
trying to get a large business to engage with, think about who
what the size of those businesses that you really want
to target is and, and craft yourapproach to that.

(01:01:03):
So make sure you're thinking about what what will engage the
business of the size that you'retargeting most effectively.
So rather than say all businesses, all big businesses
created equally, understand the differences among the different
sizes and types of businesses. Also there's huge differences
across sector too. So I mean, that's another whole
factor. The second piece I would say is

(01:01:26):
to know your target business partner.
So one of the activities that work life has spent a lot of
time is really understanding what works with our business
partners. And so we have a scorecard, A
proprietary scorecard that we developed a couple years ago
that enables us to evaluate the health of the relationship,
which is great for forecasting and planning, but also for us to

(01:01:47):
define what is our, if you will look alike business.
Who are the people that we know lead and run businesses who are
going to be successful in not only launching work life
services, which is great, but also thinking about the other
practice change that they may pursue.
So really, I think sitting down and looking at where you've been

(01:02:08):
successful, what kind of business partners you've seen
the most impact with and been able to move the furthest with,
that's where you should be spending your time.
And even if you see a big business that you think would
benefit from the thing you're putting forward, I think check
yourself and and really think hard about whether they really
are the best target for you. So I think I mean, that's a

(01:02:31):
pretty true component of all business development strategy
is, you know, look for your lookalike business and that's where
you spend your time. And the last piece, which I
think is the trickier piece, butis really, really important is
do your research. I think we've talked a lot about
making sure that there is a likealignment with the business case
in alignment with the organization's priorities in

(01:02:52):
this conversation. And if you can go into that
initial conversation understanding that, then you
you're going in with a huge advantage.
You know exactly where your talking points should be
landing. If you don't know going into the
conversation, make that your first set of questions because
honestly, you're going to waste a lot less time if you actually
get that information from that business early on in the

(01:03:14):
conversation. Understand if this is a priority
for 2026 or 2030 because if it's2030, guess what, you don't need
to spend time on it. And I think do really good
listening when you're in the call.
This was not yesterday, but within the last few months.
I was on the call, a call with Chro who who said my people have

(01:03:35):
the same problems as me. So I'm not really sure work life
is the right solution for us. And I, I thought you are
correct. Work life is not the right
solution for you because you're,you probably don't understand
that the issues that your employees have are different
than yours. Not to say you don't have
issues, we all do, but that you were folks are experiencing

(01:03:55):
probably different types of things.
So know when to kind of qualify a business out and just know
it's not the right fit. So I'd say those are kind of
things we think about when we wethink about how we spend our
valuable time when we're talkingto businesses really of all
sizes. But big businesses can probably
consume A disproportionate amount of your time too.

(01:04:16):
So yeah, I'll leave it there. Great.
Thanks, Cindy. Scotty, you know, we've we've
talked a lot about big businesses today and I think it
begs the question of like, you know, what's the difference
between approach and approach when you're working with a small
or medium sized business. And we talked a little bit about
proximity, you know, kind of being one of those those

(01:04:37):
different contextual differencesbetween companies of different
size. So talk a little bit about what
you see is the difference in terms of working with large
companies versus small and business and what advice or
suggestions you would have for people that are maybe aiming for
engagements with small or mediumsized businesses.

(01:04:57):
Yeah, I was going to use exactlythe same phrasing, Matt,
leverage your proximity. Cindy talked about it.
It's super important, you know, get close and ask curious
questions and listen. So think of your proximity to
your employees as a real asset. And then I think we also have
heard this idea of bring employees into the process.
So don't just ask them. Don't just sit there and

(01:05:22):
observe, but actually ask for their input and their ideas.
Don't make assumptions about what employees need based on
what they told you. We worked with a company not too
long ago, a smaller company and what they ended up doing because
we, we have this pilot model. And, and in the first part of
the pilot, it's about creating an, an employee, a way to listen

(01:05:45):
to your employees. And the second part is to say,
once you hear what your employees are asking for, you
know, go ahead and, and pilot what that ask is.
Well, this company found that that employee focus group was so
worthwhile that that is actuallythe pilot that they implemented.
And it wasn't just about big things like benefits, it was
about small things. So what they learn from working

(01:06:09):
with their and and holding theirfrontline conversation was that
they had replaced these screwdrivers and because they
were expensive and they bought acheaper model.
Well, the employee said the cheaper model is actually
costing you more money because we have to replace them all the
time. So again, they turned to the
experts, they built that proximity and they rectified the
situation. So the employees were hurt in

(01:06:31):
something as simple as, as, you know, buying the right tool, but
also in building an experience of trust so that when something
bigger came up, they were able to have a conversation about
that as well. Embrace nimbleness.
So small companies have the opportunity to shift a little
bit, right? It's like the Titanic versus a

(01:06:52):
smaller boat. You're going to move a little
bit faster. So embrace the nimbleness that
your team may have, the flexibility and strength that
you have in being small and thata lot of people hold multiple
roles. So how does one role and
responsibility connect to another?
I think it's something that can be really thought provoking.
Think broadly about skills as you're looking.

(01:07:13):
If if you're having a problem with retention because there's
not enough advancement or you'rehaving trouble attracting
people, think about how you're looking for employees to come to
the table. Don't rely on old methods, but
really think about what are the skills that are essential for an
employee to be successful in that role, except help.
You're not alone. So we, the three of us here are

(01:07:36):
here to help you. Matt's got tons of ideas as
well. You know, companies don't need
to work alone. Ask for help, reach to reach out
across your network. And the final thing I would say
is start small. If you're a big company or
you're a small company, your small step is a smaller medium
sized business is going to actually get you moving in
progress and that you don't haveto be perfect.

(01:07:57):
So really think about what is that immediate next step you can
see. And in a smaller medium sized
business, you're going to be able to see that impact pretty
quickly and know if you need to shift again.
And that goes back to that nimbleness piece.
So those are some things I wouldrecommend.
Got you. I want to stay on this question
of impact and, and progress in kind of two different ways as we

(01:08:18):
start to, to round this out a little bit more.
Ellen and Cindy, you've mentioned you have your own
scorecard, but Ellen, I know you've done a lot of work on
like job quality outcomes maps and you know how that can be a
way to kind of measure progress and, and, and impact.
So I'd like you to speak a little bit to that.
And then Cindy, I want to pivot to you next after that, because
we got a question from the audience around how do you think

(01:08:42):
about assessing the health of your relationship with the
company? So Ellen, maybe you can go first
on the job quality outcomes maps.
And then Cindy, I'll pivot to you a little bit on the health
of the relationship. This is one of the most fun
things that I have ever done in my academic career.
And it's all because of the National Fund for Workforce
Solutions, which involved us in a project that was funded by the

(01:09:04):
Gates Foundation to really understand small to mid sized
businesses and and job quality and how those kinds of companies
can make jobs better. And my team did a very extensive
review of the academic evidence base and really looked at the
research to understand those human capital KP is that we care
about that cost us money or makeus money like turnover

(01:09:27):
intentions, engagement, burnout,etcetera.
What do we know with high confidence is strongly
correlated with those in terms of job characteristics.
So we looked at all of the research that use those human
capital KP is as an outcome. So what are the different
characteristics of jobs and did they have an impact on turnover,

(01:09:49):
engagement, burnout, et cetera. And what we were able to do is
to isolate where are there strong correlations and which of
those particular outcomes do they connect with, right.
So I've a wonderful friend who works for a very large financial
institution. They have a seasonal business.
Things get crazy at particular time of year.

(01:10:10):
People work incredibly hard and burnout's a real risk.
And my friend had said to me, you know, they worked so hard,
we're giving them all bonuses Now.
This is terrific, right? Because compensation is a high
predictor of turnover, engagement, burnout, etcetera.
But bad news when you sorry, it's a turnover and engagement.
Bad news. It is not a predictor of reduced

(01:10:30):
burnout. So giving people money to reduce
burnout is actually not putting your resources where they are
most needed. So the job quality outcome maps
are available. You can go to the National Fund
for Workforce Solutions website.It's also linked on our website.
And it's a tool for companies tosay where is our priority today.
And sometimes it is turnover, but sometimes it's engagement or

(01:10:52):
burnout. Look at what that outcome is,
that human capital KPI is. And you can use the job quality
maps to identify where are our best levers to address that and
try to make progress on those things.
So what? We're using the right tool to
solve the right problem and not wasting time with things that
are terrific to do but aren't actually going to get us the the

(01:11:15):
most important results that we're seeking.
These job quality outcome maps are an amazing resource.
I I recommend everyone check them out.
Cindy, how do you think about metrics and evaluating the
health of your relationship withthe companies you're working
with? So we did, we worked actually
with a consultant about 18 months ago.
We started that project to establish basically an employer

(01:11:37):
trust matrix. And trust may not be the right
word, but we're using that as a way to really think about how,
how healthy is this relationship.
And really how we measure it is pretty simple and it is really
the level of responsiveness, thelevel of engagement with that

(01:11:59):
employer. Does that employer regularly
schedule their quarterly business reviews with us?
Do they regularly share information about our services
with their employees so the employees know it's available
when and if they need it? Do they ask questions about the
data that we share with them? Are they responding to emails
when we asked to clarify something about an employee

(01:12:22):
benefit? Because we asked for employee
benefit information so we can help employees access those
benefits. When employers are kind of
checking the boxes on a good chunk of those different
activities, then we know they'reactively engaged in the success
of the relationship. And they they're actively
engaged in getting the right outcomes from their partnership

(01:12:44):
with us, which is to again, makesure their employees can come to
work stable and engaged, not burdened by all the things that
can happen in life. And so that's really it's, it's
got to be customized to whateverit is you're doing with an
employer or business partner. But at the end of the day, I
think figuring out what those critical touch points are really

(01:13:06):
is essential in understanding the health of a relationship.
If you, if your client isn't ever responding to your emails,
then I would put them on AI would probably take them out of
your forecast for next year. So no.
Thanks. So what we're up on like one or
two minutes left here. So this will have to be quick,
maybe 30 or 45 seconds each. But I do want to end on this

(01:13:27):
note. I want to get your final
thoughts on, you know, we've talked a lot about how to make
change at big companies today, alittle bit on small and medium
sized company companies, but sometimes, you know, change
begins at home. And as leaders at each of your
organization's, I'd like you to all maybe talk about and offer a
quick reflection or two about how you think about job quality

(01:13:49):
internally at your own organizations and how that's
been instructive or helpful in your work with your external
partners. And what advice you can give
people to get started on that kind of internal reflection
process and, and, and looking inthe mirror a little bit.
So we don't have much, much timehere, but maybe 3045 seconds
each. And Scotty, maybe I'll start

(01:14:10):
with you. Yeah, I can identify two things.
One is we've really been workingon creating a culture of
inclusion and belonging. We didn't say we are an
inclusive company and we belong.Let's set it on the shelf.
But it's something we continue to think about, talk about,
engage in conversation about. And the second piece I'll add to
that is professional development.
It has to do with building job quality.

(01:14:32):
That's usually what people want.They want to be able to grow in
their position. They want to think about
flexibility. And I think professional
development is a huge piece of that.
So those are the two things I'd say.
Thanks, Scotty. Ellen.
So I, I think that when we look at job quality within our own
organizations, it allows us to go to our clients with

(01:14:52):
experience of those challenges first hand.
And what we did about it. One thing in particular I'll
talk about is, you know, when wetalk about having a, a, a voice
and autonomy doing that in our organizations, you know, we, we
have to practice what we preach,right?
One of the things that we do is we spend a lot of energy on
coaching, particularly with, youknow, early stage managers.

(01:15:15):
What I have seen, you know, 100 times in my career is that when
folks are new managers, they, there are two things going on,
right? So on the, the first piece is
they're accountable for outcomesin a way they probably weren't
before. And also they now feel
responsible for people, right? So when, when a problem comes
up, I'm accountable for the solution to the problem And, and

(01:15:36):
I, I have to have the answers. So they often will come with a,
a solution instead of going to, as we were all talking about
the, you know, the folks on the ground who know the answer.
So, you know, we, we think abouthow do, how do we encourage
people to not feel like they have to have all the solutions,
but that they have to have the right questions to, to get the,

(01:15:57):
the team engaged in those answers.
So, you know, again, I think the, the coaching piece is part
of what creates really high quality jobs and really engaging
with these challenges is what allows us to have additional
credibility with our companies that we work with to say, you
know, I it's a different scale, but I've been in your shoes.
Here's some of the things that we tried.

(01:16:18):
Thank Don. Wise words, Cindy.
I'll end with you. Yeah, as a small non profit, we
are perennially challenged to have competitive benefits, but
it's something we prioritize. However, the the one word that
really came to mind when you asked the question, Matt, is
recognition. And I think it's really, really
important that your employees feel like the work that they're

(01:16:40):
doing on behalf of your organization, your mission, your
customers, your clients, whatever, however you you
quantify that it matters. And so we've worked really,
really hard to improve the levelof recognition that we provide
to our employees. So they know that what they do
every single day makes a huge difference in our success.

(01:17:02):
Thanks, Cindy. That's a great note to end on.
Thank you, Cindy, Thank you, Ellen.
Thank you, Scotty. I feel like we could spend
another hour here. I just appreciate your all's
work and expertise and perspective and thoughts on this
work so much. You've all been just incredible
leaders in this space and I think a lot of people draw on
your your expertise and wisdom to help guide them.

(01:17:23):
So I appreciate you taking the time.
Thank you to our audience for for being here.
Thank you as always to my colleagues Tony, Nora, and
Francis for their support and work on this event, as well as
our colleagues and architects. Our next event's going to be in
November. It's on November 19th and we're
going to explore another heavy topic, which is the the, the

(01:17:45):
resurgence of child labor in ourcountry and what we should do
about that. So I hope you'll be able to join
us. Thank you again.
Make sure to take the survey that's going to pop up in your
window here shortly and have a good rest of your week and
weekend. Take care.

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