January 21, 2024 • 31 mins
Watch lawyer and writer Gourav Mohanty put forth his views and tackling questions on reservation, feminism and the much burning topic, Sanatan Dharma.
Gourav joins us with his sharp insights, navigating the complexities of India's reservation system and its effects on modern society. We tackle the legacy of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar and the powerful symbolism of equality and justice he represents, while addressing the contentious balance between historical rectification and the aspiration of a merit-based future. It's a discussion that doesn't shy away from the resentment and hopes entwined with affirmative action, as we ponder the parallels with policies abroad and the political will needed to evolve beyond reservation.As we pivot to the nuanced world of gender dynamics, the conversation takes a candid look at the exploitation of laws meant to protect against dowry and domestic violence. We converse on the societal and structural changes imperative for fostering true equality, from shared parenting responsibilities to corporate inclusivity, without underplaying the essential roles men play. The debate on gender superiority gives way to a collective call for unity and cooperation, amidst a backdrop of secularism and cultural representations within the diverse tapestry of Sanatan Dharma.Finally, we delve into the historical context of skin color perceptions, from ancient Indian beauty ideals to the modern influences of media and K-pop. Against the backdrop of human conflict over differences, the episode illuminates personal insecurities and societal pressures, championing the celebration of unique beauty and the embracement of one's true self. We leave our listeners with a resonant message of peace and self-acceptance, a reminder of the beauty in diversity and the strength found in our shared humanity.
00:00 Reservation Controversy Discussed
11:06 Gender Dynamics and Divorce Settlements in India
24:09 History's Impact on Skin Color
31:03 Objectification and Embracing One's True Self (The Astrix Show - Season 2, Episode 25) Episode hosted by: Gargi Priyadarshini Dash Idea and creative by: Gargi Priyadarshini Dash Edited by: Siddhant Tripathi, Nilesh Patnaik Graphics by: Arindam Panigrahi Show Notes by: Shruti Sinha Crew: Anirudh Das, Amritansu Sahoo Location Courtesy: The Space, Patia Produced by: Siddhant Tripathi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You must have seen that there isa, you know, statue of Doctor BR
Ambedkar, like he's pointing towards like that.
So it's I feel it like personally feel it, that it is
like he's telling us that generals go outside.
God created man in his own image, but maybe the devil kind
(00:24):
of interfered there. The kind of measures they have
taken for the upliftment of the section of society has yielded
fruit. And now we can take this
protection away or take this affirmative action away.
Hey. Gaurav, we meet again.
Yeah, Thank you so much for having me.
And I'm glad that we both are kind of dressed in the theme of
the books cover. So
(00:53):
darkness gala, how's you? I'm great.
I'm great. The weather has been kind of
kind in terms of the thunderstorms and rain that is
happening. It almost feels like Thor is
outside. But I'm just really excited to,
you know, again get a chance to speak more about the issues that
you guys brought up because the interview which we had the last
time, the diversity of topic, the sheer palette was just so
(01:14):
enriching even for me, just to answer.
So yeah, looking forward to the sequel.
OK. So like the first thing I would
like is I want you to guess today's topic.
OK. So yeah, I'm on action.
OK. Whenever, like in colleges you
(01:34):
you must have seen that there isa, you know, statue of Doctor BR
Ambedkar, like he's pointing towards like that.
So it's I feel it like personally feel it that it is
like he's telling us that generals go outside.
So can you guess the topic? Wow.
(01:57):
First of all, I don't think he'ssaying that, so I will
definitely raise umbrage to thatissue.
I think he's one of the most magnificent leaders that the
country has produced. But if I'm supposed to talk with
reference to what the topic might be, are you hopefully
going to talk about reservation?Yeah, you're right.
Great. See, this interview is
completely designed to ban my book, guys.
(02:20):
All right, let's go for it. Yeah.
So what do you think about, likein our country, I've seen like
most of the time there is reservation for the SC.
It is good, like the weaker section should be like enriched
and provided with such facilities.
But that doesn't mean that the people who are actually capable
(02:41):
of a certain position should be held back.
Yeah. So, and I really think that it
is a very big hindrance to the country's development in all
aspects. So what do you think about that?
I would say that when you are going to apply to certain
colleges which has a woman's quota and given if you have an
(03:03):
opportunity to get that and, youknow probably get into your
dream college, not many would say no, I don't want to choose
it. And where does this whole
genesis lie? It lies in the systematic
oppression of certain sections of the society over thousands of
years. You know, I love the idea of
equality. You know, I get that frustration
(03:24):
which I, as a general man who has was not from Kashmir.
You know, in terms of there is just absolutely no quota which
is available to me. And of course there is that
resentment that does grow that, you know, I wish I had this
path, but we would think of thispath as a shortcut.
But the marginalized societies who have been so over thousands
(03:46):
of years would think of this as justice.
Right now when it comes to reservation, it has been such a
tricky thing because of the different starting lines which
different communities I've had. When we speak about ending
reservation or coming to a pointwhere the merit should still be
rewarded while uplifting the society, it's a tightrope that
(04:07):
we have to work. Unfortunately, in today's
political climate, reservation has becomes a issue to divide
rather than to unite, right? And the way it is going, even BR
Ambedkarji never intended for reservation to be something
which is all the vital eternity.You know, he dreamed of a
(04:27):
country where because of reservation, the economically
weaker section or the culturallydepressed sector has come to
power with the rest of the sections.
One enjoy this privilege for so many centuries.
Say whatever. XY is that reason.
I mean, you can't boil it down to 123.
There are so many socio economic, political reasons that
are there that has not happened yet.
(04:50):
But what we see these days is there are more sections who are
claiming for reservation becausethey know that political bank,
there's no political will to actually end this right?
And ending this will not happen by saying that, OK, you know
what, no more reservation. It will happen when you have
taken enough movement that they have risen to a point where you
(05:11):
feel that OK, maybe it is no longer needed for your cast.
It is now required for people who are economically weaker.
The EWS quota which is called. And that makes a lot more sense.
Like I completely agree with that.
Like I. Was about to.
Say that point like the EWS quota to me makes a lot of
sense. But again, I will not know the
(05:31):
historic discrimination that hashappened because my community,
my ancestors have not faced it, right?
Right. So I would not be able to say.
But then when I look at the end of affirmative action in US,
where all these Ivy League colleges, including Harvard,
because of the recent decision of the Supreme Court,
affirmative action for African Americans, you know, All Blacks
has been stopped. And there has been a fool as to
(05:54):
whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.
But here's the thing. They took into account a lot of
data. I don't know if it's right or
wrong, but they took into account the data and saw, OK,
wait, over the last century, over the last few years, the
kind of measures they have takenfor the upliftment of the
sectional society has yielded fruit.
And now we can take this protection away or take this
affirmative action away. So I hope there is a future
(06:16):
where we don't need reservation anymore.
And I hope there is this political will that will stop
needing this to get. Like no prejudice towards that
OVCSK like, but even I feel thatlike now, right now as you said
that the economically weaker sections they need support.
Right now they need support because like they don't have
(06:40):
resources, proper resources to like you know go for studies and
like different to achieve their dreams.
But right now in the current scenario, you'll be seeing the
like the weaker, like the lower castes like they are in much
higher positions. So they won't be considered as
weaker section like economicallyweaker section anymore, right?
(07:01):
Right, so. I mean, I completely agree.
And there are so many cases of people who have topped, yeah,
you know, and if you compare their marks as someone who's not
even past the entrance exam, there's a gulf of difference.
And that inherently strikes you as very unfair, right?
Because doesn't make sense. Why should this be there?
Because someone is starting so hard to get the point.
(07:21):
And these guys, it's not that they did not have the
opportunity. Their own parents might be in
civil services which means automatically can assume that
they had opportunities. But sometimes we're looking at
as a redressal of past wrongs, you know.
And I'm going to draw a very weird analogy here up from the
top of my head. Recently India landed in the on
the Moon on Sachandran mission and there was a viral video that
(07:44):
went around where a British journalist said something about
the effect that OK, now that youhave landed on the moon, wanted
to return on the billions of money that you have taken as
aid. But I guess Pi LK Sharma she I
hope I'm not taking the name wrong.
Right. No, that's fine.
Yeah, so she replied it with that India has not taken any aid
(08:05):
after 2015. Yes, right.
See, there are, there has been aid that has come in.
There are loans which exist because this is a transaction
which goes on across countries. Right.
But here's the thing. Think of how much UK has taken
from us over the course of years.
Right. And now we feel like, yeah, come
on, UK should return all that money or, you know, give us
(08:25):
something. That's how exactly the
marginalized communities feel Like even if they are at a level
where they can, you know, get that position, they feel that
historically, for whatever cruelties have suffered, they
need compensation. Yeah.
So when you draw this analogy, somehow you empathize with this.
(08:46):
You know, this should end. Even they know it should end.
But let's see, you know, and I think the one of the best
examples I can give is The Maid in Heaven.
I don't know if you guys have watched it.
There was this Radhika Apte episode which spoke about coming
out as a Dalit, and I think thatspoke about why reservation was
so important. It is the most important thing
that the country ever needed, especially when it comes to
horizons. But I hope that there's a expiry
(09:10):
date to it. But The thing is like my point
is now that we have reservationsand we have set like particular
that for these particular people, for this category of
people the passing mark is 35 orso.
Because of that like most of thestudents have stopped trying to
(09:31):
score higher marks, right? Right.
So that is the like main problem.
I don't have problem with the quota system but The thing is
like when I am I don't get to pass with 80% but they are
getting to pass with 35%. That is my concern.
Right, right, right. And like you mentioned about
(09:51):
that women quota. And so I would like, you know,
drag you into that topic of equality between men and women.
So do you think that to empower women we really need to put down
men? No, of course not.
You don't need to put down anyone to ensure the equality of
someone. See, The thing is, I get the
(10:12):
context of your question. You know, in terms of the rise
of feminism, which is the most beautiful thing that exists.
There has been this moment wherewhich rises on the shoulders of
men, that kind of a projection that men are down and that's how
you rise, that sort of a thing. It's unfortunate, but given the
whole, you know, there's a Benthamite principle, the
(10:32):
greatest good for the greatest number of people.
Now if you look at it from that perspective, feminism, the way
it's uplifting women, it's the advantages are way too many that
this whole collateral damage that takes place.
It's really sad we have to work towards making this better, but
it's fine, we can go ahead with it.
(10:52):
You know if men have oppressed women for so many centuries, you
know, suddenly we're getting a taste of our own medicine, which
we have delivered to them, right?
It, it kind of is a horrible. And I'm going into a different
thing being a lawyer. I've seen all these read of
cases where laws which were intended to be used as a shield
by women are now used being usedas a sword, you know, when it
(11:15):
comes to dowry or domestic violence cases.
And in fact they are being regularly used as a way to
settle divorce settlements, You know, even if there is nothing
that exists, right. And that kind of sullies the
entire name of our act, which isneeded in India because of
domestic violence. Cases are so much So what do you
do? There is no clear way out of
(11:35):
this, you know, And you just can't find a way to figure out
that. OK.
How do you segregate the false cases, the malicious cases who
are using the beautiful tool of feminism to their own personal
ends versus women who actually need it, you know?
So yeah. And like I really appreciate
your supportive statements like when you accepted like women we
(11:59):
are now tasting the, but I stillseen a lot of men, they claim
that women are just taking advantage of the laws.
And if like women were like there was a time when they were
depressed, but now they like allsort of measures are being taken
to empower them to get them in aposition.
(12:23):
So why are not like why they're not proving it right now, but
who will explain them that that mental process, It will take
some time? Yeah, of course it will take
time. And even as a society and
organization, that has to change.
You know, the organizations, even corporate structures are
still coming to terms of the whole idea of maternity leaves,
which are so important, period leaves that are so important.
(12:44):
You know, women balance. Even now, even if people are Co
parenting, the societal assumption is that the if
there's a child, the woman will be slightly more responsible
than the man needs to be, even in modern couples, you know and
it will take time to change this, just not in India.
Across the world, this is not just an endocentric phenomenon.
So it will take time. Unfortunately it is true you
(13:06):
whenever you take a basket of apples, there will be some
apples which are rotten and thatkind of kind of gives us
impression because of the foul smell of the entire basket is
rotten. It is not, you know.
I mean, the same thing happened with the Me Too movement as
well, which set out to be like this global changing movement
and did like it brought down people like Harvey Weinstein.
But the same Me Too movement started to be misutilized or
(13:29):
abused by certain sections, you know, for their own private
gains and that people who are afraid of you know.
The Me Too movement started using those 123 stray cases to
give the entire movement a bad name, you know.
But you can never change this. Whenever you have a law, there
will be someone who will use it for the benefit, like for the
benefit of the society, and there will be someone who abuses
(13:51):
it for their own privilege. So you can't so.
Like don't you think that it's like way better to stop
comparing ourselves? That if men are women, sorry,
men are better or women are better because it will be a lot
better if we both like, we both genders like join our hands and
work together. I completely agree.
(14:13):
I think the whole idea that you should typecast people as men or
women in terms of a generalized thing is stupid, you know?
I mean, if you're on the same level, let's say the same
hierarchy, I would rather say OK, is Gaurav better?
Is Gargi better? Depending on the work
performance, my gender or your gender should have no if impact
on what the performance evaluation would be exactly, you
(14:33):
know, but. Like we both like talking about
men and women. We both have our own
specialities, own things. Like if we keep on arguing about
this, then there will be a like World War 345 and.
I agree. You see, like there's this whole
old adage which goes like men are from Mars, women are from
Venus. It doesn't matter which one is
better or stronger or weaker, they both revolve around the
(14:55):
sun. Exactly.
And if one has to be better thanwhy God prepared two of them,
like if like women, I would justnot support women that women,
like. Most of the women, say that we
alone can run the world. Of course you can.
But The thing is, if you were the only one who is like
necessary for this planet, then why God prepared both of us?
(15:18):
Yeah, I'm gonna say that's againa very, again a hyper form of
feminism, which is something which I disagree with the whole
idea that, I mean women are the most important beings that God
has created. Agreed, OK, but think about the
real lines which men have put the construction sites where
they are working. These are very male dominated
areas where women don't even statistically apply, you know,
(15:39):
between the gutters, for example, you know, stuff like
that. Now when you look at these kind
of jobs, do you really think that men are not important?
No. So when you're trying to
establish how women are equally or or maybe even more capable
than the other gender when it comes to certain job, you don't
have to do it at the cost of someone else.
You know, push yourself to be better and don't pull others
(16:01):
down. I think that's something which I
would suggest. Definitely.
Like in our class there was a debate going on about this thing
that who is better. So at that time a lot of men
like I, there was a thing. I saw that in the row, like in
the debate who is better? Women and men.
In men's side it was only men and women's side it was only
(16:24):
women. So it was like very
heartbreaking to see that neither they supported us,
neither like not we supported them.
So like I was expecting some boys to come to come here this
side to women's side and supportour points, but there was, but
how can we expect the same when we we are?
(16:45):
Not doing. That so, so like the third topic
that I'll like to raise is aboutthe secularism.
Okay. Yeah.
So do you think that these days in India a lot of propagandas
are being raised about the blaming and doubting the Sanatan
(17:07):
Dham? So what is your?
Point of view. I do not think at all that the
propaganda or the doubts are being raised against the beauty
of Sanathan, Dharma or Hinduism for that matter.
Because as a culture itself, it's all embracing.
It has always placed the male energy Shakti on equal terms
with sorry, the female energy Shakti on equal terms with
(17:29):
Shaivism, the male energy. It's always been that way.
So that has never been put into question.
According to me. If there are some people, there
are always trolls. But recently though there has
been an outcry against a very rapid or destabilization of our
secular ecosystem to favour one at the cost of another.
(17:50):
Remember how you spoke about just now that women don't have
to say that they are the best bysaying that men are down.
But recently there has been a trend of saying that Hinduism is
the best by putting other religions down and that has come
in very overt ways by official sectors.
(18:12):
But I don't think somehow that is wrong because the other
religions are doing a lot of things.
They're even converting people. Like obviously choosing any
religion is like my it's my choice whatever I choose.
But like forcefully converting someone with that greed of money
and like those stuff that is very wrong.
(18:34):
So like other religions are doing such stuff so why not ask
what is wrong? We are not putting someone down.
But yeah I've I'm seeing a lot of reels and like trending
reels, the beauty of Sanathandan, Krishna, Shivji,
Shakti, everything. So I don't feel anything as.
A religion as a concept, I completely agree that with the
(18:55):
most beautiful thing. But when you're looking at this
from a forceful conversion point.
So let me give you a live example from Orissa itself,
because. Which has received a massive
criticism from the right wing that Christian missionaries do
forceful conversion in Orissa. OK, now let's take the example.
You have gone to the poorest sections of the forest, OK?
There are people who have been starving, who have no access to
(19:16):
technology. Government is not able to help
them, despite wanting to help them.
Nothing. OK.
The people, the, the religion they belong to, those people are
not helping them out, have not done anything to advance them,
OK And suddenly there are a bunch of missionaries who come,
OK, the whole idea of missionaries across religion, it
(19:39):
doesn't have to be only Christianity, because this is a
term which we associate with Christianity.
But during Ashoka's time, they were Buddhists, you know, and
during Shankaracharya's time, they were Hindus.
In fact, when no other dominant religion existed in India, it
used to be rationalites versus Chevites, people trying to
spread Chevites versus people trying to spread Rationalites,
Missionaries job always has beento spread religion.
(20:02):
OK. And how does that happen when
they go down and when they're trying to feed or take care of
people, show them videos and, you know, or take care of them
and help them develop. There are two sides to it.
If they're saying that I will only give you food if you
convert to Christianity. That is wrong.
Or any other religion that is wrong.
(20:23):
What? Like that's happening, right?
Now no, but again, that's what. If you look at a biased news
report, they would say somethinglike this.
But if you ask the people who have been so converted, if you
ask the missionary, they will say data is not there to
conclusively establish this aspect.
Now what happens is there's a certain outcry, which happens
when you see that a section of avillage which was one religion
(20:46):
has now converted into another. And we there's an assumption
that this has to be forced or under duress.
The Supreme Court has come out clearly with guidelines.
Then if you're enticing them that you will convert and then
I'll give you fool, that's wrong.
But if you're helping them out and if they want to change into
a religion which is respecting them and where they're able to
(21:08):
see that their children are not dying, you know if there's
nothing wrong in them wanting tochange the religion.
Because that's fine, right? So when it comes to four, for
example, there's a whole propaganda that happened because
of Kashmir fires. Sorry, Kerala story.
All right, Now, the initial trailer started with around
30,000 women have been converted, right?
(21:31):
Data show three women. OK.
And then ultimately, what did the director say before the
Supreme Court? I'm sorry.
He had to apologize and he said so the trailer was revamped to
saying 3. You know of which two by the way
were not Hindus. OK.
But this is where any movement like let's say we were trying to
(21:52):
show actually a social issue where certain women might be
being brainwashed or certain boys would be being are being
brainwashed to join the ISIS. Because this brainwashing did
not happen just an end day. It happened across the world.
You know, women from everywhere,UK, US, they all went to join
the ISIS when ISIS won on its full bloom.
So when you're looking at this, had you highlighted it as it is,
(22:17):
there is a difference between 3 and 3030 thousand, 30,000 means
it's an epidemic, 3 means, OK, isolated cases.
We need to look at it, you know,And then it assumes the role of
a propaganda. I love Samadhan.
I'm like very proud of my religion and in fact my ideas
are all about our myths and you know, the beauty of our
(22:39):
mythology and just generally thebeautiful things different
aspects of religion are. Exactly.
Not a religion. Exactly, it's.
A set of rules to like, live a peaceful, happy and successful
life, yeah. It's a way of living that has
come about. The reason why it is defined as
a religion is because of existence of other religions
(22:59):
right now, when the existence ofother religions was not known to
us in chronic times or in medieval times in the Guptas
about not. Sanatan turned the most like the
oldest religion. See, it is very difficult to,
you know, when we look at history, we're looking at the
entire millennia as one unit, and that is wrong.
(23:20):
History cannot be looked at fromthat perspective because if you
look at the evolution of gods inthe Vedic pantheon, earlier we
had a similar system to that of the Greeks.
Or rather the Greeks had a similar system that to us.
We had a pantheon of God's elemental like Indra was for
Thunder, lightning, rain. Ugly was for fire.
Then you had like again for everything, for machines.
(23:41):
We had Vishwakarma. You know every element that we
saw around us, we gave a Scramble God to it.
And there was again we worship them.
Does anyone worship Indra anymore?
No, it doesn't even worship by you anymore.
Though we worship Hanuman, right?
He's always called the son of the wind, right?
But does anyone worship by you? No one.
Because slowly that devolved andwe established 3 primordial
(24:04):
entities above them the three day basically the creator, the
destroyer and the preserver. And then in the middle, if you
look at history, there used to be a lot of violence between
Chevites and Nationalites. The same way you might say,
let's say Hindu versus Muslim riots that take place that.
It was all pre planned. Pre planned.
(24:24):
And in the sense that people like came and aggravated like
provoke people, that there thereare differences among you and.
See that will so pre planned in the sense there will all.
Any violence that takes place which is orchestrated in such a
manner will always be pre planned but not like external
agencies or something on those lines.
You know as we have spoken aboutthis even before that the whole
(24:46):
concept of narcissism or minor differences.
When there are two sects who areliving together who are similar
in every way and there is one thing that differentiate them or
that differentiates them, suddenly they will all get very
aggressive about it. I mean that if you look at the
history of Jews and their persecution across Europe, you
will see that they were the same, but just because they
looked slightly different, you know how to like they had to
(25:07):
keep something out of beard and something out of clothes,
Sabbath and all of that, you know, keep like a hair thing and
they suddenly become different from the others and they began
to be persecuted. And there's a lot of historical
factors in world can't go too deep into that.
But that's exactly what happened.
So I've always felt whenever from the dawn of time, in fact
(25:28):
let me go even further, when there was number religion in the
world, Homo sapiens came in. That's our species.
But Homo sapiens was not the first human race.
There was Homo erectus, Homo Neanderthals.
And science has taught us that whenever a new species to
evolve, it used to be followed by the destruction of the older
species. So when Homo sapiens came in,
(25:51):
they started evolving. The Homo sapiens, Neanderthals
and sapiens had a lot of conflicts and ultimately the
Neanderthals have piped out. They were a completely different
human race. Like how does a cat family how
tiger and lion are different. Similarly, even the human race,
Homo sapiens were different fromHomo Neanderthals.
Homo Neanderthals were differentfrom Homo erectus isn't.
It weird like how we humans always pick upon like those who
(26:15):
are different from us, like we bully them and.
Yeah, it's it's a very weird trait of humanity in that and
this is common across cultures and civilizations of not
existing in peace. But then again, when I think
about animal Kingdom and we don't get to see it, but if you
look at the territory duels thattake place and the kind of
(26:37):
chaotic world that they live in,it happens in them as well.
So maybe the whole idea of, you know, Bible says something very
interesting about this, that Godcreated man in his own image,
but maybe the devil kind of interfered there.
Right, right. Like not to go off track, but
like a lot of things, like I said about the bullying thing,
(27:00):
like the black people were bullying for for a reason then.
But this skin thing, I find it very foolish and like very crazy
because how come that's a skin color?
This is a skin color. Like why do we even bully
someone because of this like thewith the same thought God
(27:20):
created both of us. So I do because I've seen
because of this thing. This thing has impacted me a lot
as a kid. I like I was a very insecure kid
and after I like got into the world of K Pop and like again I
would do not please editor don'tterm this as a dark side of K
(27:42):
Pop kid. I know it.
I'm not telling what the dark side it is my mentality.
I won't blame anyone, but after watching their MVP and their
body structure, even after knowing that I am an Indian, I
am much younger than them, I became very, you know, conscious
about my looks, my skin, my body.
And I exhausted myself to like until I started running to the
(28:05):
hospital for like every day. So this thing I would say like
we humans really need to stop this.
Like comparing ourselves with others.
Correct. We, I mean you're sure in a
utopian world we would do that. But did you know in history,
interestingly Indians, ancient Indians, there was reverse
racism. Like if people were fair, they
(28:26):
were looked on upon. So what happened?
There is a whole concept called mileage on lecture in Oriya.
There's a work on lecture. My mother calls me that whenever
I'm not taking a shower quickly by like 10:00 AM in the morning
like lecture. OK, mileage is a dirty word.
It was used visibly. Foreigners, OK, who were way too
fair, like the Greeks who were called the Yavanas, the Turks,
(28:47):
because they also existed in thetimes of the Mahabharata.
OK, And we call them mileage. For different reasons, they did
not follow our Vedic system. And 2nd and most importantly,
they did not bathe regularly. OK, because see, we live in a
hot climate, right? But if you look at the UK king,
the Queens of the Kings of England, they used to take a
(29:09):
shower probably once in a month or once in two months.
They used to take a cloth and maybe wipe their hands because
with such a cold weather, takinga shower is not an important
thing. Whereas in our civilization,
every morning you're supposed totake a because it purifies you,
right? So bath and hygiene was a very
important thing of our culture and this was part of the dark
(29:29):
skinned people, this culture. So whenever we used to look at
fair people, way too fair and like the Greeks who are coming
in or whatever, we're like, they're dirty.
That's a drop of the skin color and Krishna skin color.
They're considered the epitome of beauty and they both wear
dark. Zopati was fire kissed, which
(29:50):
means that she had a very charred complexion, tan
complexion. And Krishna, though he's
depicted in a lot of places, is blue in color.
His actual description was completely black.
He was very dark. I know, right?
And that was considered the highest standard of beauty.
So it's interesting how we have changed because of history,
because over the years we have been ruled by dynasties from the
north and whether the intermingling of Middle Eastern
(30:13):
population with Indian population and this whole fair
skin complexion came about. And then the Britishers came in
for 200 years. It went into our psyche thinking
that our overlords, the one who we're supposed to bow before,
are people who are fair skinned.So that became, like, okay, the
highest standard we. Don't even think that like we
belong to different region like the like, because the
(30:33):
geographical region, the climatehas a huge impact on us, our
body type, our skin color, our hair, eyes, everything.
So like we need to focus on thatand.
Then we are changing in that direction.
There have been. So I mean Fair and Lovely had to
change its company name and I think that's a great success
story, even though it still continues to sell the most
(30:54):
amount of products in India. But at least we're changing in
that direction where if you are talking about this whole fair
thing, people are scared of and embarrassed of saying that OK,
they want a fair skin girl, you know, earlier it is to be very
openly said. Now it's like, OK, I know this
is wrong. I will still say it, but you
know, I will whisper it, you know, in this whole matrimonial
circles. Women's are like normally very
(31:15):
much objectified on that basically slim body fair skin.
Yeah, I'm not even men, by the way.
Like, oh, not good ask. No, no, no.
You know, that whole idea, that thing is slowly going away.
You know, we're trying to get the whole tall, dark hand
something back, I suppose, yes. So I would really like love to
end our conversation on this message that let's have peace,
(31:36):
peace out. Yeah, I mean, totally be proud
in your own skin and be comfortable in your own skin.
I think that's what's most important.
Thank you so much, Gargi, for those amazing questions.
Cheers.
You must have seen that there isa, you know, statue of Doctor BR
Ambedkar, like he's pointing towards like that.
So it's I feel it like personally feel it, that it is
like he's telling us that generals go outside.
God created man in his own image, but maybe the devil kind
(00:24):
of interfered there. The kind of measures they have
taken for the upliftment of the section of society has yielded
fruit. And now we can take this
protection away or take this affirmative action away.
Hey. Gaurav, we meet again.
Yeah, Thank you so much for having me.
And I'm glad that we both are kind of dressed in the theme of
the books cover. So
(00:53):
darkness gala, how's you? I'm great.
I'm great. The weather has been kind of
kind in terms of the thunderstorms and rain that is
happening. It almost feels like Thor is
outside. But I'm just really excited to,
you know, again get a chance to speak more about the issues that
you guys brought up because the interview which we had the last
time, the diversity of topic, the sheer palette was just so
(01:14):
enriching even for me, just to answer.
So yeah, looking forward to the sequel.
OK. So like the first thing I would
like is I want you to guess today's topic.
OK. So yeah, I'm on action.
OK. Whenever, like in colleges you
(01:34):
you must have seen that there isa, you know, statue of Doctor BR
Ambedkar, like he's pointing towards like that.
So it's I feel it like personally feel it that it is
like he's telling us that generals go outside.
So can you guess the topic? Wow.
(01:57):
First of all, I don't think he'ssaying that, so I will
definitely raise umbrage to thatissue.
I think he's one of the most magnificent leaders that the
country has produced. But if I'm supposed to talk with
reference to what the topic might be, are you hopefully
going to talk about reservation?Yeah, you're right.
Great. See, this interview is
completely designed to ban my book, guys.
(02:20):
All right, let's go for it. Yeah.
So what do you think about, likein our country, I've seen like
most of the time there is reservation for the SC.
It is good, like the weaker section should be like enriched
and provided with such facilities.
But that doesn't mean that the people who are actually capable
(02:41):
of a certain position should be held back.
Yeah. So, and I really think that it
is a very big hindrance to the country's development in all
aspects. So what do you think about that?
I would say that when you are going to apply to certain
colleges which has a woman's quota and given if you have an
(03:03):
opportunity to get that and, youknow probably get into your
dream college, not many would say no, I don't want to choose
it. And where does this whole
genesis lie? It lies in the systematic
oppression of certain sections of the society over thousands of
years. You know, I love the idea of
equality. You know, I get that frustration
(03:24):
which I, as a general man who has was not from Kashmir.
You know, in terms of there is just absolutely no quota which
is available to me. And of course there is that
resentment that does grow that, you know, I wish I had this
path, but we would think of thispath as a shortcut.
But the marginalized societies who have been so over thousands
(03:46):
of years would think of this as justice.
Right now when it comes to reservation, it has been such a
tricky thing because of the different starting lines which
different communities I've had. When we speak about ending
reservation or coming to a pointwhere the merit should still be
rewarded while uplifting the society, it's a tightrope that
(04:07):
we have to work. Unfortunately, in today's
political climate, reservation has becomes a issue to divide
rather than to unite, right? And the way it is going, even BR
Ambedkarji never intended for reservation to be something
which is all the vital eternity.You know, he dreamed of a
(04:27):
country where because of reservation, the economically
weaker section or the culturallydepressed sector has come to
power with the rest of the sections.
One enjoy this privilege for so many centuries.
Say whatever. XY is that reason.
I mean, you can't boil it down to 123.
There are so many socio economic, political reasons that
are there that has not happened yet.
(04:50):
But what we see these days is there are more sections who are
claiming for reservation becausethey know that political bank,
there's no political will to actually end this right?
And ending this will not happen by saying that, OK, you know
what, no more reservation. It will happen when you have
taken enough movement that they have risen to a point where you
(05:11):
feel that OK, maybe it is no longer needed for your cast.
It is now required for people who are economically weaker.
The EWS quota which is called. And that makes a lot more sense.
Like I completely agree with that.
Like I. Was about to.
Say that point like the EWS quota to me makes a lot of
sense. But again, I will not know the
(05:31):
historic discrimination that hashappened because my community,
my ancestors have not faced it, right?
Right. So I would not be able to say.
But then when I look at the end of affirmative action in US,
where all these Ivy League colleges, including Harvard,
because of the recent decision of the Supreme Court,
affirmative action for African Americans, you know, All Blacks
has been stopped. And there has been a fool as to
(05:54):
whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.
But here's the thing. They took into account a lot of
data. I don't know if it's right or
wrong, but they took into account the data and saw, OK,
wait, over the last century, over the last few years, the
kind of measures they have takenfor the upliftment of the
sectional society has yielded fruit.
And now we can take this protection away or take this
affirmative action away. So I hope there is a future
(06:16):
where we don't need reservation anymore.
And I hope there is this political will that will stop
needing this to get. Like no prejudice towards that
OVCSK like, but even I feel thatlike now, right now as you said
that the economically weaker sections they need support.
Right now they need support because like they don't have
(06:40):
resources, proper resources to like you know go for studies and
like different to achieve their dreams.
But right now in the current scenario, you'll be seeing the
like the weaker, like the lower castes like they are in much
higher positions. So they won't be considered as
weaker section like economicallyweaker section anymore, right?
(07:01):
Right, so. I mean, I completely agree.
And there are so many cases of people who have topped, yeah,
you know, and if you compare their marks as someone who's not
even past the entrance exam, there's a gulf of difference.
And that inherently strikes you as very unfair, right?
Because doesn't make sense. Why should this be there?
Because someone is starting so hard to get the point.
(07:21):
And these guys, it's not that they did not have the
opportunity. Their own parents might be in
civil services which means automatically can assume that
they had opportunities. But sometimes we're looking at
as a redressal of past wrongs, you know.
And I'm going to draw a very weird analogy here up from the
top of my head. Recently India landed in the on
the Moon on Sachandran mission and there was a viral video that
(07:44):
went around where a British journalist said something about
the effect that OK, now that youhave landed on the moon, wanted
to return on the billions of money that you have taken as
aid. But I guess Pi LK Sharma she I
hope I'm not taking the name wrong.
Right. No, that's fine.
Yeah, so she replied it with that India has not taken any aid
(08:05):
after 2015. Yes, right.
See, there are, there has been aid that has come in.
There are loans which exist because this is a transaction
which goes on across countries. Right.
But here's the thing. Think of how much UK has taken
from us over the course of years.
Right. And now we feel like, yeah, come
on, UK should return all that money or, you know, give us
(08:25):
something. That's how exactly the
marginalized communities feel Like even if they are at a level
where they can, you know, get that position, they feel that
historically, for whatever cruelties have suffered, they
need compensation. Yeah.
So when you draw this analogy, somehow you empathize with this.
(08:46):
You know, this should end. Even they know it should end.
But let's see, you know, and I think the one of the best
examples I can give is The Maid in Heaven.
I don't know if you guys have watched it.
There was this Radhika Apte episode which spoke about coming
out as a Dalit, and I think thatspoke about why reservation was
so important. It is the most important thing
that the country ever needed, especially when it comes to
horizons. But I hope that there's a expiry
(09:10):
date to it. But The thing is like my point
is now that we have reservationsand we have set like particular
that for these particular people, for this category of
people the passing mark is 35 orso.
Because of that like most of thestudents have stopped trying to
(09:31):
score higher marks, right? Right.
So that is the like main problem.
I don't have problem with the quota system but The thing is
like when I am I don't get to pass with 80% but they are
getting to pass with 35%. That is my concern.
Right, right, right. And like you mentioned about
(09:51):
that women quota. And so I would like, you know,
drag you into that topic of equality between men and women.
So do you think that to empower women we really need to put down
men? No, of course not.
You don't need to put down anyone to ensure the equality of
someone. See, The thing is, I get the
(10:12):
context of your question. You know, in terms of the rise
of feminism, which is the most beautiful thing that exists.
There has been this moment wherewhich rises on the shoulders of
men, that kind of a projection that men are down and that's how
you rise, that sort of a thing. It's unfortunate, but given the
whole, you know, there's a Benthamite principle, the
(10:32):
greatest good for the greatest number of people.
Now if you look at it from that perspective, feminism, the way
it's uplifting women, it's the advantages are way too many that
this whole collateral damage that takes place.
It's really sad we have to work towards making this better, but
it's fine, we can go ahead with it.
(10:52):
You know if men have oppressed women for so many centuries, you
know, suddenly we're getting a taste of our own medicine, which
we have delivered to them, right?
It, it kind of is a horrible. And I'm going into a different
thing being a lawyer. I've seen all these read of
cases where laws which were intended to be used as a shield
by women are now used being usedas a sword, you know, when it
(11:15):
comes to dowry or domestic violence cases.
And in fact they are being regularly used as a way to
settle divorce settlements, You know, even if there is nothing
that exists, right. And that kind of sullies the
entire name of our act, which isneeded in India because of
domestic violence. Cases are so much So what do you
do? There is no clear way out of
(11:35):
this, you know, And you just can't find a way to figure out
that. OK.
How do you segregate the false cases, the malicious cases who
are using the beautiful tool of feminism to their own personal
ends versus women who actually need it, you know?
So yeah. And like I really appreciate
your supportive statements like when you accepted like women we
(11:59):
are now tasting the, but I stillseen a lot of men, they claim
that women are just taking advantage of the laws.
And if like women were like there was a time when they were
depressed, but now they like allsort of measures are being taken
to empower them to get them in aposition.
(12:23):
So why are not like why they're not proving it right now, but
who will explain them that that mental process, It will take
some time? Yeah, of course it will take
time. And even as a society and
organization, that has to change.
You know, the organizations, even corporate structures are
still coming to terms of the whole idea of maternity leaves,
which are so important, period leaves that are so important.
(12:44):
You know, women balance. Even now, even if people are Co
parenting, the societal assumption is that the if
there's a child, the woman will be slightly more responsible
than the man needs to be, even in modern couples, you know and
it will take time to change this, just not in India.
Across the world, this is not just an endocentric phenomenon.
So it will take time. Unfortunately it is true you
(13:06):
whenever you take a basket of apples, there will be some
apples which are rotten and thatkind of kind of gives us
impression because of the foul smell of the entire basket is
rotten. It is not, you know.
I mean, the same thing happened with the Me Too movement as
well, which set out to be like this global changing movement
and did like it brought down people like Harvey Weinstein.
But the same Me Too movement started to be misutilized or
(13:29):
abused by certain sections, you know, for their own private
gains and that people who are afraid of you know.
The Me Too movement started using those 123 stray cases to
give the entire movement a bad name, you know.
But you can never change this. Whenever you have a law, there
will be someone who will use it for the benefit, like for the
benefit of the society, and there will be someone who abuses
(13:51):
it for their own privilege. So you can't so.
Like don't you think that it's like way better to stop
comparing ourselves? That if men are women, sorry,
men are better or women are better because it will be a lot
better if we both like, we both genders like join our hands and
work together. I completely agree.
(14:13):
I think the whole idea that you should typecast people as men or
women in terms of a generalized thing is stupid, you know?
I mean, if you're on the same level, let's say the same
hierarchy, I would rather say OK, is Gaurav better?
Is Gargi better? Depending on the work
performance, my gender or your gender should have no if impact
on what the performance evaluation would be exactly, you
(14:33):
know, but. Like we both like talking about
men and women. We both have our own
specialities, own things. Like if we keep on arguing about
this, then there will be a like World War 345 and.
I agree. You see, like there's this whole
old adage which goes like men are from Mars, women are from
Venus. It doesn't matter which one is
better or stronger or weaker, they both revolve around the
(14:55):
sun. Exactly.
And if one has to be better thanwhy God prepared two of them,
like if like women, I would justnot support women that women,
like. Most of the women, say that we
alone can run the world. Of course you can.
But The thing is, if you were the only one who is like
necessary for this planet, then why God prepared both of us?
(15:18):
Yeah, I'm gonna say that's againa very, again a hyper form of
feminism, which is something which I disagree with the whole
idea that, I mean women are the most important beings that God
has created. Agreed, OK, but think about the
real lines which men have put the construction sites where
they are working. These are very male dominated
areas where women don't even statistically apply, you know,
(15:39):
between the gutters, for example, you know, stuff like
that. Now when you look at these kind
of jobs, do you really think that men are not important?
No. So when you're trying to
establish how women are equally or or maybe even more capable
than the other gender when it comes to certain job, you don't
have to do it at the cost of someone else.
You know, push yourself to be better and don't pull others
(16:01):
down. I think that's something which I
would suggest. Definitely.
Like in our class there was a debate going on about this thing
that who is better. So at that time a lot of men
like I, there was a thing. I saw that in the row, like in
the debate who is better? Women and men.
In men's side it was only men and women's side it was only
(16:24):
women. So it was like very
heartbreaking to see that neither they supported us,
neither like not we supported them.
So like I was expecting some boys to come to come here this
side to women's side and supportour points, but there was, but
how can we expect the same when we we are?
(16:45):
Not doing. That so, so like the third topic
that I'll like to raise is aboutthe secularism.
Okay. Yeah.
So do you think that these days in India a lot of propagandas
are being raised about the blaming and doubting the Sanatan
(17:07):
Dham? So what is your?
Point of view. I do not think at all that the
propaganda or the doubts are being raised against the beauty
of Sanathan, Dharma or Hinduism for that matter.
Because as a culture itself, it's all embracing.
It has always placed the male energy Shakti on equal terms
with sorry, the female energy Shakti on equal terms with
(17:29):
Shaivism, the male energy. It's always been that way.
So that has never been put into question.
According to me. If there are some people, there
are always trolls. But recently though there has
been an outcry against a very rapid or destabilization of our
secular ecosystem to favour one at the cost of another.
(17:50):
Remember how you spoke about just now that women don't have
to say that they are the best bysaying that men are down.
But recently there has been a trend of saying that Hinduism is
the best by putting other religions down and that has come
in very overt ways by official sectors.
(18:12):
But I don't think somehow that is wrong because the other
religions are doing a lot of things.
They're even converting people. Like obviously choosing any
religion is like my it's my choice whatever I choose.
But like forcefully converting someone with that greed of money
and like those stuff that is very wrong.
(18:34):
So like other religions are doing such stuff so why not ask
what is wrong? We are not putting someone down.
But yeah I've I'm seeing a lot of reels and like trending
reels, the beauty of Sanathandan, Krishna, Shivji,
Shakti, everything. So I don't feel anything as.
A religion as a concept, I completely agree that with the
(18:55):
most beautiful thing. But when you're looking at this
from a forceful conversion point.
So let me give you a live example from Orissa itself,
because. Which has received a massive
criticism from the right wing that Christian missionaries do
forceful conversion in Orissa. OK, now let's take the example.
You have gone to the poorest sections of the forest, OK?
There are people who have been starving, who have no access to
(19:16):
technology. Government is not able to help
them, despite wanting to help them.
Nothing. OK.
The people, the, the religion they belong to, those people are
not helping them out, have not done anything to advance them,
OK And suddenly there are a bunch of missionaries who come,
OK, the whole idea of missionaries across religion, it
(19:39):
doesn't have to be only Christianity, because this is a
term which we associate with Christianity.
But during Ashoka's time, they were Buddhists, you know, and
during Shankaracharya's time, they were Hindus.
In fact, when no other dominant religion existed in India, it
used to be rationalites versus Chevites, people trying to
spread Chevites versus people trying to spread Rationalites,
Missionaries job always has beento spread religion.
(20:02):
OK. And how does that happen when
they go down and when they're trying to feed or take care of
people, show them videos and, you know, or take care of them
and help them develop. There are two sides to it.
If they're saying that I will only give you food if you
convert to Christianity. That is wrong.
Or any other religion that is wrong.
(20:23):
What? Like that's happening, right?
Now no, but again, that's what. If you look at a biased news
report, they would say somethinglike this.
But if you ask the people who have been so converted, if you
ask the missionary, they will say data is not there to
conclusively establish this aspect.
Now what happens is there's a certain outcry, which happens
when you see that a section of avillage which was one religion
(20:46):
has now converted into another. And we there's an assumption
that this has to be forced or under duress.
The Supreme Court has come out clearly with guidelines.
Then if you're enticing them that you will convert and then
I'll give you fool, that's wrong.
But if you're helping them out and if they want to change into
a religion which is respecting them and where they're able to
(21:08):
see that their children are not dying, you know if there's
nothing wrong in them wanting tochange the religion.
Because that's fine, right? So when it comes to four, for
example, there's a whole propaganda that happened because
of Kashmir fires. Sorry, Kerala story.
All right, Now, the initial trailer started with around
30,000 women have been converted, right?
(21:31):
Data show three women. OK.
And then ultimately, what did the director say before the
Supreme Court? I'm sorry.
He had to apologize and he said so the trailer was revamped to
saying 3. You know of which two by the way
were not Hindus. OK.
But this is where any movement like let's say we were trying to
(21:52):
show actually a social issue where certain women might be
being brainwashed or certain boys would be being are being
brainwashed to join the ISIS. Because this brainwashing did
not happen just an end day. It happened across the world.
You know, women from everywhere,UK, US, they all went to join
the ISIS when ISIS won on its full bloom.
So when you're looking at this, had you highlighted it as it is,
(22:17):
there is a difference between 3 and 3030 thousand, 30,000 means
it's an epidemic, 3 means, OK, isolated cases.
We need to look at it, you know,And then it assumes the role of
a propaganda. I love Samadhan.
I'm like very proud of my religion and in fact my ideas
are all about our myths and you know, the beauty of our
(22:39):
mythology and just generally thebeautiful things different
aspects of religion are. Exactly.
Not a religion. Exactly, it's.
A set of rules to like, live a peaceful, happy and successful
life, yeah. It's a way of living that has
come about. The reason why it is defined as
a religion is because of existence of other religions
(22:59):
right now, when the existence ofother religions was not known to
us in chronic times or in medieval times in the Guptas
about not. Sanatan turned the most like the
oldest religion. See, it is very difficult to,
you know, when we look at history, we're looking at the
entire millennia as one unit, and that is wrong.
(23:20):
History cannot be looked at fromthat perspective because if you
look at the evolution of gods inthe Vedic pantheon, earlier we
had a similar system to that of the Greeks.
Or rather the Greeks had a similar system that to us.
We had a pantheon of God's elemental like Indra was for
Thunder, lightning, rain. Ugly was for fire.
Then you had like again for everything, for machines.
(23:41):
We had Vishwakarma. You know every element that we
saw around us, we gave a Scramble God to it.
And there was again we worship them.
Does anyone worship Indra anymore?
No, it doesn't even worship by you anymore.
Though we worship Hanuman, right?
He's always called the son of the wind, right?
But does anyone worship by you? No one.
Because slowly that devolved andwe established 3 primordial
(24:04):
entities above them the three day basically the creator, the
destroyer and the preserver. And then in the middle, if you
look at history, there used to be a lot of violence between
Chevites and Nationalites. The same way you might say,
let's say Hindu versus Muslim riots that take place that.
It was all pre planned. Pre planned.
(24:24):
And in the sense that people like came and aggravated like
provoke people, that there thereare differences among you and.
See that will so pre planned in the sense there will all.
Any violence that takes place which is orchestrated in such a
manner will always be pre planned but not like external
agencies or something on those lines.
You know as we have spoken aboutthis even before that the whole
(24:46):
concept of narcissism or minor differences.
When there are two sects who areliving together who are similar
in every way and there is one thing that differentiate them or
that differentiates them, suddenly they will all get very
aggressive about it. I mean that if you look at the
history of Jews and their persecution across Europe, you
will see that they were the same, but just because they
looked slightly different, you know how to like they had to
(25:07):
keep something out of beard and something out of clothes,
Sabbath and all of that, you know, keep like a hair thing and
they suddenly become different from the others and they began
to be persecuted. And there's a lot of historical
factors in world can't go too deep into that.
But that's exactly what happened.
So I've always felt whenever from the dawn of time, in fact
(25:28):
let me go even further, when there was number religion in the
world, Homo sapiens came in. That's our species.
But Homo sapiens was not the first human race.
There was Homo erectus, Homo Neanderthals.
And science has taught us that whenever a new species to
evolve, it used to be followed by the destruction of the older
species. So when Homo sapiens came in,
(25:51):
they started evolving. The Homo sapiens, Neanderthals
and sapiens had a lot of conflicts and ultimately the
Neanderthals have piped out. They were a completely different
human race. Like how does a cat family how
tiger and lion are different. Similarly, even the human race,
Homo sapiens were different fromHomo Neanderthals.
Homo Neanderthals were differentfrom Homo erectus isn't.
It weird like how we humans always pick upon like those who
(26:15):
are different from us, like we bully them and.
Yeah, it's it's a very weird trait of humanity in that and
this is common across cultures and civilizations of not
existing in peace. But then again, when I think
about animal Kingdom and we don't get to see it, but if you
look at the territory duels thattake place and the kind of
(26:37):
chaotic world that they live in,it happens in them as well.
So maybe the whole idea of, you know, Bible says something very
interesting about this, that Godcreated man in his own image,
but maybe the devil kind of interfered there.
Right, right. Like not to go off track, but
like a lot of things, like I said about the bullying thing,
(27:00):
like the black people were bullying for for a reason then.
But this skin thing, I find it very foolish and like very crazy
because how come that's a skin color?
This is a skin color. Like why do we even bully
someone because of this like thewith the same thought God
(27:20):
created both of us. So I do because I've seen
because of this thing. This thing has impacted me a lot
as a kid. I like I was a very insecure kid
and after I like got into the world of K Pop and like again I
would do not please editor don'tterm this as a dark side of K
(27:42):
Pop kid. I know it.
I'm not telling what the dark side it is my mentality.
I won't blame anyone, but after watching their MVP and their
body structure, even after knowing that I am an Indian, I
am much younger than them, I became very, you know, conscious
about my looks, my skin, my body.
And I exhausted myself to like until I started running to the
(28:05):
hospital for like every day. So this thing I would say like
we humans really need to stop this.
Like comparing ourselves with others.
Correct. We, I mean you're sure in a
utopian world we would do that. But did you know in history,
interestingly Indians, ancient Indians, there was reverse
racism. Like if people were fair, they
(28:26):
were looked on upon. So what happened?
There is a whole concept called mileage on lecture in Oriya.
There's a work on lecture. My mother calls me that whenever
I'm not taking a shower quickly by like 10:00 AM in the morning
like lecture. OK, mileage is a dirty word.
It was used visibly. Foreigners, OK, who were way too
fair, like the Greeks who were called the Yavanas, the Turks,
(28:47):
because they also existed in thetimes of the Mahabharata.
OK, And we call them mileage. For different reasons, they did
not follow our Vedic system. And 2nd and most importantly,
they did not bathe regularly. OK, because see, we live in a
hot climate, right? But if you look at the UK king,
the Queens of the Kings of England, they used to take a
(29:09):
shower probably once in a month or once in two months.
They used to take a cloth and maybe wipe their hands because
with such a cold weather, takinga shower is not an important
thing. Whereas in our civilization,
every morning you're supposed totake a because it purifies you,
right? So bath and hygiene was a very
important thing of our culture and this was part of the dark
(29:29):
skinned people, this culture. So whenever we used to look at
fair people, way too fair and like the Greeks who are coming
in or whatever, we're like, they're dirty.
That's a drop of the skin color and Krishna skin color.
They're considered the epitome of beauty and they both wear
dark. Zopati was fire kissed, which
(29:50):
means that she had a very charred complexion, tan
complexion. And Krishna, though he's
depicted in a lot of places, is blue in color.
His actual description was completely black.
He was very dark. I know, right?
And that was considered the highest standard of beauty.
So it's interesting how we have changed because of history,
because over the years we have been ruled by dynasties from the
north and whether the intermingling of Middle Eastern
(30:13):
population with Indian population and this whole fair
skin complexion came about. And then the Britishers came in
for 200 years. It went into our psyche thinking
that our overlords, the one who we're supposed to bow before,
are people who are fair skinned.So that became, like, okay, the
highest standard we. Don't even think that like we
belong to different region like the like, because the
(30:33):
geographical region, the climatehas a huge impact on us, our
body type, our skin color, our hair, eyes, everything.
So like we need to focus on thatand.
Then we are changing in that direction.
There have been. So I mean Fair and Lovely had to
change its company name and I think that's a great success
story, even though it still continues to sell the most
(30:54):
amount of products in India. But at least we're changing in
that direction where if you are talking about this whole fair
thing, people are scared of and embarrassed of saying that OK,
they want a fair skin girl, you know, earlier it is to be very
openly said. Now it's like, OK, I know this
is wrong. I will still say it, but you
know, I will whisper it, you know, in this whole matrimonial
circles. Women's are like normally very
(31:15):
much objectified on that basically slim body fair skin.
Yeah, I'm not even men, by the way.
Like, oh, not good ask. No, no, no.
You know, that whole idea, that thing is slowly going away.
You know, we're trying to get the whole tall, dark hand
something back, I suppose, yes. So I would really like love to
end our conversation on this message that let's have peace,
(31:36):
peace out. Yeah, I mean, totally be proud
in your own skin and be comfortable in your own skin.
I think that's what's most important.
Thank you so much, Gargi, for those amazing questions.
Cheers.
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