#12: Olen Netteberg (Long Distance Hiking Dad) - The Adventure of Fatherhood on the Triple Crown Trails - The Athlete Dad

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I mean, the kids are the ones that picked the
Continental Divide Trail and thePacific Crest Trail, not my
wife and I.
We got to the end of theAppalachian Trail like the last
week or two of the AppalachianTrail and the kids were like
we're gonna be done hiking, likethen what are we gonna do?
I started reading to them likedifferent excerpts about the CDT

(00:20):
versus the PCT and the kidswere like the Continental Divide
Trail, that's the harder one.
And I was like, yeah, I mean byand large, most people say
that's the harder one.
Let's do that one next, just incase we don't get a chance to
do all three, let's do that one.
And then we did the ContinentalDivide Trail and the kids were
like, well, there's only onemore, so we have to be the
Pacific Crest Trail.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
So my wife and I were like okay, they're the ones
pushing this.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
It's really just amazing what kids can do if
they're supported in the rightway.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Welcome to the ATHLEADAD Podcast, where we
explore the intersection ofphysical pursuits and fatherhood
.
I'm your host, ben Gibson, andeach episode will dive deep into
topics like modeling, ambition,achieving balance and
intentional integration aroundathletic passions and parenting.
If you're seeking to accomplishyour goals as an athlete while

(01:10):
crushing it as a parent, thenyou've come to the right place.
If you are an avid hiker, youare probably familiar with the
Abolation Trail.
It's a 2,000-long mile trailstretches from Georgia all the
way up to Maine.
2,000 miles typically takespeople like five to seven months

(01:33):
to complete this.
You know how hard that is 2,000miles of walking,
self-sustained.
Now I want you to think about,as a parent, how difficult it is
sometimes just to get your kidsout the door, get their shoes
on, get their snacks, deal withthe tantrums Incredibly
difficult.
Now I want you to imaginetrying to hike the Abolation

(01:54):
Trail with your kids.
Then imagine doing that samething another two times.
You might think that any parentand their kids for that matter
would have to be superhuman tocomplete such a task.
I mean, maybe you'd have to besuperhuman to even consider
doing it.
And that's exactly what Olenand Diney and their kids have

(02:19):
done.
Today we are speaking with thedad, olen Netteberg, who is a
father of five kids.
He's a doctor by trade, but hehas made a mark for himself with
his family for some incrediblehiking feats that they've
completed recently.
Now in American hiking there arethree prominent trails that
make up what's called the TripleCrown.

(02:39):
They have the Abolation Trail,you have the Continental Divide
and you have the Pacific CrestTrail, and this family, with
children young enough to need tobe carried at some points, have
completed all three.
This story is incredible andthe story of Olen and his family
is really one that sort ofembodies all three core pillars

(03:01):
of the athlete dad.
We have modeling ambition, wehave seeking balance, we have
intentional integration, and Ijust can't think of a better
example of a family living outthese values than what they have
done.
In fact, they have done thiswith children so young that
their children hold records forbeing the youngest to ever
complete some of these longdistance hikes.

(03:21):
In this conversation wediscussed things like how they
decided to even attempt such anenormous undertaking and what
that experience was like out onthe trail.
You know the good, the bad, theugly.
What sort of like lessons andperspectives were gleaned about
life and parenting for partakingin such an endeavor, and also

(03:41):
some amazing stories andhilarious stories about this
adventure as a family.
Now, if you've ever dreamtabout leaving your job, or maybe
at least taking time off ofyour job, to go do something
incredible like this with yourfamily, with your kids, then
buckle up, because after thisepisode, you might find yourself
shopping for a new pair ofhiking boots.

(04:03):
I will link Olen and Denay'ssocials in the show notes, as
well as their blogs, so that youcan continue to follow along.
But let's get right to it.
Please enjoy this inspiringconversation with the paternal
representative of thissuperhuman Netteberg family, mr
Olen Netteberg.
So, olen, I have been lookingforward to this conversation for

(04:28):
a very long time, since wefirst started talking and
actually probably before that,when I first discovered you and
you and your wonderful family onInstagram and saw what you all
were getting up to and my brainimmediately started rattling off
all these questions but, mostimportantly, a lot of like how
questions, and so I'm eternallygrateful for you to be

(04:50):
physically in a place and not onthe trail for this day so that
we can have this conversation.
So I just want to say thanksfor taking time to join the
athlete Den.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, absolutely Happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
You live an incredibly interesting life, and
so I think it might be reallyhelpful to level set on just
exactly what life as dad andhusband kind of looks like for
you today.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Well, we've kind of had we feel like two separate
lives and then a third life onthe horizon Since 2010,.
We moved to Chad, africa and weran a hospital in the middle of
super rural Chad Africa.
My wife and I are both doctorsand our kid, our youngest was

(05:32):
five months old when we visited,so I guess he was almost two
when we actually moved there andthat has kind of been where we
raised kids and our real day today life there was very busy.
Our kids were super duperneglected because we were always
up at the hospital, so we kindof left our kids to their own
devices, to home school.
My mother-in-law was there foryears and that was huge.

(05:54):
I mean, she home, she prettymuch potty trained all of my
kids for me, you know, diddishes.
She's just an amazing woman.
But that was sort of the onelife and then we realized that
we were neglecting kids but westill wanted to be able to serve
our hospital and our patientsas best we could.
So about 2018, I think, is whenI kind of shifted to try to

(06:19):
become a stay at home dad and Iloved it in so many ways.
I loved being that involved andactive and present for my kids.
I really threw myself into it.
But at the same time I wasstill technically the boss in
the hospital and I mean we livedon hospital property and there

(06:41):
were only there were threedoctors up at the hospital, one
of which was my wife, and thewhole time I felt horrible being
at home because if I was athome that meant that the other
doctors were working extra hardat the hospital when I could be
helping them.
It would mean I wasn't doing myjob as the chief administrator
of the hospital and every timeI'd hear something going wrong

(07:02):
at the hospital I felt so guiltyfor being at home with my kids.
And then every time I went upto the hospital I felt horribly
guilty because I wasn't at homewith my kids and the kids were I
mean, our kids are likesemi-feral, free-range, organic
children.
I mean mud and sticks weretheir big toys.
So it was very unsatisfying forme, both professionally and as

(07:24):
a father, to be torn so hardbetween the two and not really
feel like I could find a goodbalance.
And I suspect that resonateswith almost every dad out there.
Stay at home dads.
I have so much respect for youand I'm sure you wrestle with
some of that and professionaldads.
You know I get that.
You probably feel the same way,that you're not being the

(07:45):
at-home father that you wish youwere.
So I just I really had troublefinding satisfaction with that
and we started looking in 2019,2020 for our replacements who
could come to fill the void atour hospital.
We'd been there for so long andreally poured just our hearts
and soul into that hospital.
I mean, we tripled the size ofthe hospital, like quadrupled

(08:08):
the income, tried to make it asself-sufficient as we could, but
knew that if we stepped awaywithout replacements, all of our
hard work would kind of beundone.
But at the same time we neededto get away, we needed a break.
So in 2020, we decided to takethe Appalachian Trail.
So that's kind of our next lifeis our life as hikers, and the
Appalachian Trail is a 2,200mile trail between Georgia and

(08:31):
Maine, really popular, very welltrafficked.
But 2020 was just COVID crazy.
But we got to.
Yeah, we I mean we got to spendintense 24, seven family time
together, us and our kids, justfor seven months solid, whether

(08:52):
we wanted it or the kids wantedit or not.
And then back to Chad on andoff.
2021 was back in Chad and wehad a fifth baby.
We now have five kids.
That's a little crazy.
2022 was the continental dividetrail, from Mexico to Canada
through New Mexico, colorado,wyoming, idaho and Montana.
And then this year well, 2023,we did the Pacific Crest Trail.

(09:17):
So California, oregon andWashington, again from Mexico to
Canada.
And it's totally wild to thinkthat I am probably the world's
leading expert on hiking longtrails with big families,
because I totally feel like aposer.
You know, 8,000 miles of hikinglater and I still feel like I'm

(09:38):
a bit of a fraud.
But now we indeed, we indeeddid all three trails, every
single last foot of them, and weindeed did them with four kids
on the AT and five kids on theCDT and PCT.
So that's kind of our secondlife, and now we're kind of
retiring from hiking.
My feet hurt, like right now.
Actually, at this moment I can'tfeel my toes, but half of the

(10:00):
day when I'm upstanding andwalking around I can't even feel
my feet anymore, just from thekind of chronic trauma of
pounding with a really heavypack on my back.
So we're kind of transitioningto figure out who we are now,
what's our next identity, andwe're unemployed and homeless at
the moment, but that's, youknow, by our own foolish

(10:20):
choosing and lack of preparation.
So we feel like we have theteam in Chad, africa.
We don't feel like we need togo back there.
They're solid, they're awesome,they're wonderful people
running the place now.
So now, what is best for ourfamily and what's best for our
kids, our kids the youngest istwo.
She came well later.
The next is eight, and thenthey are 10, 12 and 14.

(10:40):
So we're trying to figure outwhere we want to settle down,
where we want to live, what'sthe best place to raise kids,
and then we'll go find jobs andfigure out a livelihood and a
home after that man that is,we're not going to start a third
life, Well yet to be determined.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
And it seems like the first two were already a full
life's worth of experiences each.
And now to go into the nextgreat adventure.
I mean, man, I can't help butthink about the challenges of
hiking something like the AT thecontinental divide, pct just by

(11:17):
yourself.
That's a very challengingendeavor.
And then I think about just howdifficult it is sometimes just
to get the kids out the door togo do a simple hike around the
neighborhood.
And then I think about just thechallenge of having four or
five kids generally in societyand the fact that you found a

(11:38):
way to weave these all together,becoming a father of four and
five living internationally,hiking some of the most
prominent trails in the worldand doing all this at the same
time.
You may feel like you're a fraudin a sense, but I know that

(11:59):
myself, I can probably speak formany of the people that are
really going to hear this andthat I'm just so shocked that
you have the skill set and thecapacity and the patience and
the desire and all this to beable to pull off something like
that.
So absolutely kudos to you.
And I know that it probably andmaybe it was, but I'm guessing

(12:21):
it probably didn't go from likezero to Appalachian Trail.
So help me understand like whatwas the life like outdoors with
kids before you decided to gohike the AT?
And when did that idea come tomind of like what if we could
take them on the AT and actuallytake a swing at that thing?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yes, I mean, I'd always known about the AT, was
curious and, you know, thoughtit was cool and exotic, but my
backpacking experience had beena trip in high school and then
like a overnight in college, andthen my wife and I went for a
few nights after medical school,but it was 2018, was it 2018?

(13:05):
Yeah, it was 2018.
When we were going to go do theAppalachian Trail, because we
were feeling that burnout and wehad a surgeon lined up to come
over for a year and our youngestwould have been two, the kids
would have been two, four, sixand nine, which would have been
just the worst possible ages inretrospect, that was, yeah, that

(13:27):
was pretty foolish, but thesurgeon had gotten there.
We overlapped with him for acouple of months so we could
kind of train him into thesystem and get him used to some
tropical medicine and some ofthe surgeries that we did.
But then he had kind of gottenmalaria too many times so he was
sick and tired of being sickand tired, so he left like two
weeks before we were supposed tostart.
We're like, yeah, that's allright.

(13:48):
So instead of taking most ofthe year off, we'll still take
our normal two month vacation.
And while we were back onvacation, we did like three or
four kind of week longbackpacking trips and fully
expecting the kids to hate it,and they really didn't.
I mean, they enjoyed themselves.
The next year 2019, we didanother week of backpacking and

(14:10):
I mean, the backpacking took us.
Where were we?
That was in West Virginia.
The year before it had been, oh, utah and North Carolina and
Pennsylvania.
So then 2020 came and when westarted, yeah, the kids were
four, six, eight and 11, whichwould have which was much easier
than it would have been twoyears earlier.
And what we told the kids is wesaid you know, we're going to,

(14:32):
we're going to start theAppalachian Trail and we're
going to do it for a month andif it sucks real bad, we'll just
get off.
If it sucks a little bit, we'regoing to finish out the month
and then we'll stop.
And the month came and went andwe asked the kids you guys want
to keep going?
And they were like, yeah, let's, let's keep going.
Why would we stop?
I mean, the other option isreal life.

(14:54):
So, yeah, let's keep hiking.
And you know, we just checkedin with them all the time and
they just kept wanting to go.
And, like you said it's, theAppalachian Trail is challenging
.
I forgot what it is.
I think it's like threequarters of people that start
the trail don't finish, or maybeit's even more than that, but
very few of us are actuallyfinished.
One of the most common reasonswhy people quit is because they

(15:18):
can't get out of their own head.
This is the first time thatthey've really had time to just
go and think.
I mean, you see people on thetrail.
I mean they're, they'relistening to podcasts like this
or or they're, you know, tryingsomewhere to occupy their
thoughts, because they can'tstand just hiking and letting
their thoughts roam.
And that's why they get off thetrails, because they've kind of
exhausted their brain andmentally.

(15:39):
Their shot.
It's not physical, I mean someget off for injury, but the
majority are just you know what,they can't get out of their
heads.
We never really got that chancebecause with four kids, I mean
we're.
You're just never thinkingabout yourself.
You're always thinking aboutokay, where's the next water?
Where's the next food?
Where's the next shelter?

(16:00):
Oh man, is the rain coming?
How do I keep the kids dry?
How do I keep them happy?
How do I keep them warm?
What are we going to do.
And then the other one is thatthey talk.
Oh my goodness, do kids talk?
And when they have theirparents attention, they are like
at least for my kids, my kidlike their greatest reward in
the world is having theirparents attention.

(16:21):
And when you're hiking withthem, like right next to them 24
hours well, not 24 hours, but,you know, 10, 12 hours a day
they have your attention for allof that and they are so over
the moon and that excitementnever, even after seven months
of hiking on the AT, thatexcitement never wore off of it
being able to talk to theirparent and just jabber, jabber,

(16:43):
jabber.
And I mean again, their ageswere four to 11.
Now, you know, maybe whenthey're 15, 16, maybe that's
less cool for them, they're nolonger enjoying it, but at that
age is.
I mean, we had so manyconversations about Frozen, the
movie Frozen.
I'm sure Kristen Bell iswonderful, but I want to punch
her in the face Like I heard theFrozen soundtrack over and over

(17:05):
and over and over again, likeand the philosophical minutiae
of Paw Patrol and these cartoonsand these things that they love
.
And my sister, who's six yearsolder than me and has raised
three boys that are well olderthan my kids.
I remember her saying to me ifyou want your kids to talk to
you at 15, you got to listen tothem when they're five.
And I just kept telling myselfthat over and, over and over

(17:28):
again.
I want to stab myself in theeye with an ice pick right now,
like this is the worstconversation.
And we're having it for the 46thtime today.
Can we please?
But that was it.
Really didn't let us to getinto that state of kind of
psychological mind games thatpeople do to themselves when
they're hiking.
That gets them off the trail.

(17:48):
And the other advantage isthere are a lot of parents that
are hiking these long trailswith one kid and that is so much
more impressive because thatmeans they have to be the
entertainment for their kid allthe time.
And I could, you know, say Icould let them sort of interact

(18:08):
with each other and go back andforth with each other for a bit.
I didn't really have to be theone talking the whole time.
I kind of had to over here andjump in when I was expected to.
But boy, that's a lot ofpressure to be all of the
entertainment for your one kidthe whole time.
Those people are whew, they gothrough it.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Man, that is such an interesting perspective though,
the idea that, yeah, why mostpeople don't finish, they get
into their own head.
And I totally get that.
I mean even just long days onthe mountain, long days in
training, like after a while,like, yeah, really, it gets to a
point where you know music orpodcasts.
It's so noisy because, like, mythoughts are so loud.
And that hasn't always been thecase for me with endurance

(18:50):
sports, and I certainly had toshift.
I used to not be able to run.
It's like if I didn't have myheadphones I could not go for a
run.
And now I'm very much a pieceof like, okay, I've got a
thought, let me turn it off andjust like run with my thoughts
and yeah, that's it.
And it's maybe kids, having kidson the trail is a secret weapon
, you know, because you'rebasically, you know the, you're

(19:11):
the, the, the trail attendant,feeding them snacks and water
and jackets, and so you don'thave any time.
You know it sounds like.
You know you had that coolexpectation of like, hey, we'll
go for a month.
If it sucks kids hate it, we'llstop.
But you know it took sevenmonths.
So did you, did you just take aday to day at that.
At that point or was it like,hey, cool, we're going to commit

(19:32):
for another month, or like whatwas the kind of like check in
process with the kids?
And at what point did youreally realize, like I think,
we're actually going to finishthis thing?

Speaker 1 (19:41):
So it was kind of I mean, it wasn't day to day, but
it was pretty much week to week.
I mean, just really, kids, okay.
So we started to do this and wewe did two little hikes in
Pennsylvania around my stepmom'shouse in in February and then
in March March 13, I think itwas we started officially just

(20:02):
north of the Shenandoahmountains and we started hiking
and then we got to a hostel,spent the night at a hostel,
maybe five days in, and then theday that we left that hostel
was the day that kind of thingsstarted shutting down from COVID
, and so we got to the placewhere we were going to stay and

(20:22):
we saw a sign that said you knowit's closed and this was maybe
8.9 miles in or something to ourday, and we had, I mean, that
was our biggest day.
We'd never done 8.9 miles yet.
You know it only been a week,but that was our biggest day.
To that point I was feelingreally good about it and I was
like, okay, kids, we got liketwo hours until dark and the
next spot to camp is in threemiles.
Can you guys make it?

(20:42):
You're like, let's go, and Imean three miles and two hours.
That was big for us.
Now I'd roll my eyes at it.
I mean it was big for us then.
But I was like, all right,let's go, so we go.
And we got there right beforedark and I was like, wow, 11.9
miles in one day.
And so the kids were like overthe moon excited.
They're running around, they'resmiling, they're hooting and
hollering.
And so I actually turned on thecamera and I said, okay,

(21:06):
everybody, strike your Katatanapose, like when you get to the
top of Mount Katatana, finishingthe trail in Maine.
Like, show me the pose you'regoing to strike.
They were all excited.
And that was when I realized,okay, we just did, we're like a
weekend and we just did a 12mile day.
All right, maybe we can do this.
I mean, nobody's beat up,nobody's cranky, nobody's even
tired, it's just dark.
So we stopped hiking and thatwas sort of the first revelation

(21:31):
that, okay, all right, we cando that.
And actually earlier that sameday, juniper was our youngest
she was four years old at thetime and we were in what's
called the roller coaster andit's like 14, what is it?
I mean it's like 14 hills and11 miles.
They call it mountains, but Imean they're not like huge, if
you can pack in 14 and 11 miles,they can't be too big.

(21:53):
But she, we were up and goingover a few of them and then at
the bottom of one, she just satdown and started crying.
I was like, oh, okay, this isit, we're done off the trail.
Okay, we ran the kids too hard,it's time to stop.
So finally I got her to tell mewhat was wrong and she was mad
because my wife had takenJuniper's backpack and clipped

(22:17):
it to the back of my wife'spacks, that she was carrying my
daughter's backpack for her, andmy daughter really wanted to
carry it herself.
And I was like, no, it's, youknow, you're tired, it's heavy,
it's okay.
And I was like, forget it.
So I just took it off and Igave it to her.
She put in her backpack andshe's like, took off up the hill
and we went over like threeridges, I think before we'd
finally catch her she would comeup around a corner and she'd

(22:39):
just be sitting there on a rockor a log just eyeballing us.
Then she'd just snick her at usand turn around and take off
again.
And so she said, okay, that'spretty beastly, this kid's the
beast.
And then, actually, a couple ofweeks later we were in
Pennsylvania, coming out of wewere actually hiking south out
of Duncan and I think is thename of the town in Pennsylvania

(23:00):
we had just gotten ice creamand pizza and we just filled our
belly, isn't it?
It was getting to be close tosunset and as you come out of
town there's like a 700 footuphill, like just straight up,
and it's big rock slabs thatthey put down for the steps.
And we were just starting in thebase of it going up, and some

(23:20):
young local teenage kid in likebasketball shorts and running
shoes, like he's out trainingfor the day in shorts and a
T-shirt and he's like running upthe stairs, and so we have
these big giant packs on andwe're huffing and puffing and he
comes by us and she decidesshe's gonna hang with him
instead of us and she just takesoff on this like nipping at
this guy's heels and hangs withhim the whole and then passes

(23:42):
him right at the top and finally, minutes later, we get up there
afterwards Like all right,that's it.
Your name is the beast.
So the little four year oldgirl on the Appalachian Trail.
Everybody gets a trail name andher trail name was the beast.
So yeah, she's the beast andthat's like okay, I mean they
have the legs, like I'm sittinghere doing the math and I'm like

(24:03):
they have the legs, they can dothis before winter sets.
In as long as they're enjoyingthemselves, this is a real
possibility.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
And that is first off .
I love the nickname and then Ilove just like what that shows
about the resilience andcapabilities of our own kids.
You know, I think that I thinkoftentimes, when we look at
ourselves and what like wephysically can do, like very
rarely do we put massivelimitations on ourselves, like,

(24:33):
oh, I could never have hiked theAT or oh, I could never do that
.
But something I find aboutmyself is I'm often very quick
to put limitations on what Ithink my own kids can do, which
if I saw somebody else do thatto my own kid I would be like no
, of course they've got it, likelet them go for it.
But you know, I rememberdistinctly one time my son, you

(24:56):
know, we were out on a hike andthere was like this giant rock
and it's in a climbing area andhe wanted to go up and climb
this rock.
And I'm looking at it and I'mlike I don't know if there's
like a good spot for you to getup.
You've got these big clunkyhiking boots in it, like I don't
know, but I don't think, Ithink it's too steep, and he's
just adamant, let me do this.
Like I can do this, let me justtry, and so I'm like, okay,
like I'll go and I'll like getyou up on the rock and you'll

(25:18):
complain about how you can't getup, and then I'll take you down
and I put him up on this rockand he just starts like almost
like he was a professionalclimber, checking his feet,
finding his holes you know,digging it in, talking strategy
about his route, what he's gonnago up, and like next thing, I
knew he's all the way at the top, to the point where I'm like
okay, you gotta stop, becauselike, if you get stuck I can't

(25:40):
get you, I can't get you down.
And so it's interesting, like,what do you think about this?
What do you think this wholeexperience of hiking all of
these trails and going throughall these challenges, like what
do you think that this taughtyou about being a parent?
Or how do you think yourthought process about being a
parent changed over the courseof this whole time of hiking

(26:01):
these trails with your kids?

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Like I said before, like the one real big great
takeaway I took from parentingwas just that, yeah, a kid's
greatest joy in life at leastfor my kids at the ages that
they're at is just being withtheir parents, being able to
talk, being able to share withthem, and I think that was just
such a huge blessing for us.
Like I said, I mean we were somaybe physically near our kids

(26:28):
in Africa.
I mean we were never more thana couple hundred yards away from
them, we were just up at thehospital, but we were so
distracted, so not in tune withthem, that being able to be
around them really helped themblossom.
The other thing is just kidsare capable of so much more than
we give them credit for.
I mean my four year old hikedover 30 miles one day and just

(26:49):
this last year on the PCT we did41 miles and she was seven.
And I mean we always say, well,you know, any kid can do it
Like what we do isn't really allthat special.
We just happen to beextraordinarily stubborn, my
wife and I, and we put ourselvesinto very unique situations and
our kids, our kids, are built alittle different.

(27:09):
I mean they grew up in one ofthe hardest countries in the
world to grow up in, in chatAfrica.
I mean we had spottyelectricity, spotty running
water.
No hot water they don't haveanyways.
We're like 25 miles fromnearest pavement region of a
million people with no publicpower, no public running water,
no public sewage.

(27:30):
I mean it's hard to describe,it's hard to imagine unless
you've been there.
So our kids are built a littledifferent but physically maybe
other kids couldn't do thisright off the bat, but they
could build up to it.
It's hard to imagine any kidthat couldn't build up to it.
If that kid and their parentshave the right mentality of.

(27:51):
You know we're gonna ease intoit, we're gonna make it fun,
we're gonna readjust ourexpectations.
You know I'm not gonna take mykids out and start day one on
the Appalachian Trail doingeight, 10 miles a day.
I'm gonna test them out and seehow they do Now.
I mean on the Pacific CrestTrail last year on 2023, we
started with a 16 mile daybecause we knew what they were
capable of.
But and by then our kids were Imean they were just little

(28:14):
hiking machines and they knewwhat the process was and they
bought into it.
I mean the kids are the onesthat picked the Cottonwood
Divide Trail in the PacificCrest Trail, not my wife and I.
We got to the end of theAppalachian Trail like the last
week or two of the AppalachianTrail, and the kids are like
we're gonna be done hiking, likethen what are we?

Speaker 2 (28:32):
gonna do.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
I mean real life.
And so I started reading tothem like different excerpts
about the CDT versus the PCT andthe kids were like the
Cottonwood Divide Trail that'sthe harder one.
And I was like, yeah, I meanyeah, by and large most people
say that's the harder one.
Let's do that one next, just incase we don't get a chance to
do all three, let's do that one.
So we know that we at leasttried the hardest one.

(28:55):
Maybe we can't finish it, butwe wanna try it.
I was like, okay, and then wedid the Cottonwood Divide Trail
and the kids were like, well,there's only one more, so we
have to do the Pacific CrestTrail.
So my wife and I were like,okay, they're the ones pushing
this.
And when we did a 30 mile day,they had heard other hikers talk
about a 30 mile day in theAppalachian Trail, so they
wanted to see if they could doit On the Pacific Crest Trail.
They were the ones wanting tosee if they could do a 40 mile

(29:17):
day.
And anyways, it's really justamazing what kids can do if
they're supported in the rightway, you know, if they're not
pushed into it, but they're kindof shepherded along the way, if
the parents have the rightattitude, the kid has the right
attitude.
I mean kids can build upphenomenal strength, and I mean
even after 40, so we did 41miles and I asked the kids like

(29:40):
are your legs tired?
Like do your legs hurt?
Does anything hurt?
And there's like dad sleep, no,nothing hurts, just sleep.
I need to sleep.
Stop talking to me, I need tosleep.
And they're like all right,well, we got another model to go
to the van, so just stay awakeuntil we get there.
But I mean they never got theirlegs, never got sore, never got
tired.
It was just their brains wereshutting down because they

(30:02):
didn't even sleep.
I mean the amount of strengthkids can build up is just so
amazing and if you make it funfor them, I mean they enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Yeah, yeah, I always think every you know.
Sometimes I'm like, okay, Igotta let the kids aside and run
around because it's gonna theygotta tire them out.
And it's like, no, I alwaysrealize I'm just building their
endurance.
That's right, just get strongerand stronger, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
On the trail they have.
They call them zero days orNero days, which means you're
doing zero miles, or a Neroalmost no miles.
So that's when people they kindof go into town, they buy their
groceries, they do theirlaundry, they take a shower,
they nurse their feet orwhatever you know.
They just kind of lay low for aday.
For us, those days were theabsolute worst, because our kids

(30:50):
are so strong, they have somuch energy, and now they're
pent up and told to rest.
They're like what Cause they?
I mean sure maybe they're, Idon't know like you and I.
We do something big and thenthe next day we're sore.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
The kids aren't?

Speaker 1 (31:06):
I mean, give them a full night's sleep and a meal.
They're good to go.
Yeah, and we just yeah, webuilt them up to be incredibly
strong.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
And I love what you said about doing it the right
way, like pushing them the rightway.
This in itself, I think, is oneof the biggest challenges for
parents generally that areathletic ambitious, you know,
whether that's with the physicalpursuits or even academic
pursuits is how do weappropriately challenge our kids

(31:38):
and I think it's tricky becauseevery kid is different and it's
different at every age.
How do you think about that?
Like you know, did you nail itright out of the gate of like
we're pushing appropriatelywhere there's some challenges in
there, like how do you thinkabout that and what was that
experience like?

Speaker 1 (31:59):
I think we really did nail it in terms of hiking
these long trails.
I mean you had mentionedacademic, like how do you push
your kids academically the rightway, and all these other, and I
think in those parts of lifewe've probably come up short in
terms of letting them get awaywith too much here, pushing them
too hard there, but physicallyon these trails, I think we

(32:20):
really towed that line reallywell.
There's a lot of things wedidn't do well, but in terms of
knowing how to push, I mean it'slike, okay, do you guys want to
camp here or do you want to tryto go onto a campsite?
And then we get to a campsiteand okay, the next campsite is
this far away, the sun issetting in this many minutes.
Do you guys want to keeppushing on?
And it was always kind ofchecking in toward a group

(32:41):
decision.
You know if somebody's done likethey're out, they're done or
they're hurt or whatever, yeah,okay, we're going to shut it
down right here right now, butunless we really had to get to a
certain spot, it was very much.
So together we're going tofigure out.
Okay, what's the next stretch?
Do you want to try to do thisin four days?
Do you want to do it slower infive days?

(33:02):
And so I mean hour to hour, dayto day.
We really involved the kids inthose decisions and, especially
as they grew up and they gotmore mature and got more
responsibilities, they were alot more involved in those
decisions and you know they hadbad moments, they had bad hours.
You know it's raining, it'scold, all your stuff is totally

(33:24):
wet, you're shivering, you'rehungry, you're just miserable.
But really, by the time you'regoing to bed, we've gotten warm
food in your belly, we've warmedyou up, we've dried you out.
Everybody was happy by the timewe went to bed.
I mean pretty much every singlenight.
So we didn't have bad days, butwe did have bad hours.

(33:45):
And you know that's when yougotta push your kids like okay,
you know, guys, it's gettingcold, it's getting dark, this is
the next place where we cansleep, or this is the next place
where we can get water.
We gotta push now.
And the kids understood that.
I mean they got to the pointwhere they could understand that
pretty well and I mean they'rejust insanely experienced hikers
.
So the four year old, the beast, who's now seven, she still is

(34:06):
the only four year old to everhike the entire Appalachian
Trail, and so we kept thinkingabout how amazing she was and we
kind of got lost in her and herachievement.
And the six year old her nameis Addison and she named herself
Angel Wings.
The biggest thing that standsout about her is if she's awake

(34:26):
she's talking.
Like the family joke is how doyou know Addison is asleep and
that's because she's not talking?
We actually thought aboutrenting her out to other hikers,
like are you bored?
Are you having trouble being?

Speaker 2 (34:38):
motivated here.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Have this permanent conversation, just going along
with you.
But we underestimated howstrong she was because as our
four year old became a six yearold, we're like, wow, that other
six year old that we had thatnow is eight.
We really underestimated.
And and when our oldest Lyle,his trailing was blaze, when he
was 13, when he was 12 I guess,he had a growth spurt between

(35:02):
the Appalachian Trail and theConnell divide trail and he
really just became I mean hebecame a horse and he could just
go.
And then by the Pacific CrestTrail he was 14 and honestly, if
he hadn't had that growth spurtwe wouldn't have been able to
make it, because he was carryingwell over 20 pounds a day I
mean up to 3035 pounds on somedays and he could still keep up

(35:22):
with everybody.
I mean he was outstanding andso all of these kids have such
strengths.
The second is is is boomerang.
His name is Zane.
He's also very Kind of unfairlyjudge because his big brother
is like two and a half yearsolder and so he's trying to hang
with his big brother.
Actually, on the AppalachianTrail he was usually ahead of

(35:43):
his big brother.
Big brother had a growth spurtand he didn't.
But no, identifying all thedifferent personalities, then
seeing them grow and mature andearn responsibilities that they
would take on themselves.
They learn how to work as ateam, like our family unit is a
team, and sure you can hikereally fast, but it doesn't

(36:05):
matter, because we're allgetting there together.
You hike on ahead, but then yougot to wait.
Like, what good does it, do you?
So you know, can you takeweight from this person to help
them go faster?
Can you go and sing with thisperson and motivate them to go
faster?
And we get to the campgroundand they, you know, they know
what needs to happen, like OK,we're going to try to sleep on
the stars.
Are we going to put up tents?
Can I put up the tents?

(36:25):
All right, let me find a treewhere I can get a rope over so
we can do a bear hang.
I don't get up a fire.
Can I start the fire?
And they see the things thatneed to be done.
Ok, we're coming up on water.
Do we need water?
Can I filter water?
And they're processing thesethings there.
I don't even have to ask, theyjust take these things on.
And that was like one of themost rewarding things.
Also, the trail.
I mean the trail is the greatequalizer.

(36:46):
You can be a billionaire and ifyou go hike the trail you're
not that much of an advantage asthe you know poor kid who just
finished high school.
You might have a little bit ofa world experience and you might
have lighter stuff because youcan afford more expensive fancy
stuff.
But my kids were out theretalking to people of all
different ages and differentgenders and sexual orientations

(37:10):
and religions and socioeconomicstatuses and I mean you name it.
The kids were making friendsand holding court with all of
them, just excited, enthusiasticto see a hiker that is sharing
that same experience, sharingthe same suffering, the joy in
the suffering, and just seeingthem be able to build

(37:33):
camaraderie and rapport withfolks from backgrounds they
wouldn't really be able to see.
I mean different ethnicities,that it's not.
The trail is by and largeCaucasian but it's changing,
it's becoming a bit moreethnically diverse as time goes
on.
But I mean nobody was astranger.
Everybody they came across wasjust a future friend that they
could soon find common ground tobond with and they could talk

(37:54):
about the weather and they couldtalk about the trail and the
water sources and pooping in thewoods and what you know.
Whatever conversation Hikerswant to hike about what I want
to talk about and seeing themmature like that was just so
cool, so rewarding.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And that's incredible .
I hear so many themes withinthis, as you, as you're talking
about it, that I that I that Ilove, and whether they were, you
know, things that just came toyou naturally or they were
really deliberateimplementations, I think they're
just so important.
You know, this idea of groupthink you know I can hear you
talking through this.
You know you've got this great,almost like you're a teacher,

(38:28):
you're really engaging them,you're making them part of the
decision, which I'm such a fanof as a parent, as a dad, is,
like you know, making them partof the thing.
So it's not just like meputting this on you as like the
parent, but it's like, yes, weare, we are a team, we're a unit
, and you, your say has weightin this conversation.
And I love even hearing how youtalked about how they would

(38:51):
start to decide where you weregoing to end and how far, how
much farther they were going togo, and you basically just set
the, the experience, here's theoptions, here's the pros and
cons.
Let's, let's decide.
And part of me also just lovesthe visual of like this little
pack kind of going All right,hang on, and they huddle up and
then they come.
All right, mom and dad, we havedecided we are going to go X, y

(39:14):
, z, but I love the idea of alsoconstantly checking in,
especially when we're pushingour kids they're doing something
hard.
You're constantly checking inwith them.
Hey, how are we doing?
Is anything hurt?
We tired?
You know what I'm, and so theconstant check in, I think, is a
good barometer of, like youknow, am I, am I telling the
line appropriately with, with,with, with how much we're doing

(39:34):
and what I'm asking of you.
But then still, I love the ideathat you're you're still
assessing them individually.
Every kid is unique.
They have their strengths, theyhave their weaknesses, they
have their good days, their baddays, their good hours, their
bad hours.
And how can we work together asa unit to support and cater to
the individuality of it?
I mean, it's just such abeautiful approach to not just

(39:57):
being a parent doing theseamazing things, but like I think
is being a parent generally,like if we, if we within our own
homes, could start to applymore of the way that you guys
are thinking of, this idea of afamily unit as a group, as equal
, everybody has equal say, ofchecking in periodically to see
how we're doing to have honestconversations but still catering
to the individual man.

(40:18):
I bet life at home for a lot offolks would be a lot, a lot
better.
So kudos to you, you know this.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
The flip side of that point is in our family we say
we are, we are a democracy,everybody gets a vote and mommy
gets seven.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Smart man, smart yes yeah, but God, this, this
exposure to these experiences.
You know, I didn't even thinkabout other people on the trail
because I'm sure, like the thingthat came to mind, you know, as
a sibling myself, is Just howincredibly special it is for
them to have this opportunity,not just with their parents, but
with their siblings, like the,especially the, the bonding

(40:56):
through something reallydifficult, right.
But I'm hearing you talk aboutthese other people on the trail
and my mind immediately goes tolike, oh yeah, like there's,
there's an educational componentof this, this exposure to the
world that that gives them thatexperience.
Like, what are your thoughtsAround education?
Because the thing that came tomind when you thought it, when

(41:17):
you said they're on the trailfor seven months, is Did they
have to like break and learnmath?
Like what?
Like what?
What are your thoughts oneducation when it comes to
children and maybe learningthrough experiences?
And then like, yeah, did theyhave to stop and do math on the
trail?
Like, how did all that work?

Speaker 1 (41:35):
And those are good questions.
So there's a lot of theories oneducation there.
My, my sister, is Earlyeducation specialist and she
likes to do Waldorf and others.
There's Waldorf and there'swhat a.
There's all these differenttheories on education and I'm
not smart enough to know them.
What we did is we got it'scalled a Becca.

(41:56):
It's a super Structuredcurriculum that comes as a DVD
case.
So you're seeing a classroomthat was recorded and burned
onto a DVD.
I mean every class, every dayfor a school year and they get
the textbooks.
And it was really just thelaziest way to do it Because I
could buy a set and then I couldgive it to the kids and I say,
okay, you guys doing this,daddy's got to go to the

(42:18):
hospital and it was.
It was a bit of a cop out.
I want to be the cool dad.
That is like I do sex andphonics and I choose Singapore
math.
I pick and choose all thesedifferent different subjects.
I'm not that cool, but somepeople talk about, you know,
homeschooling.
Everybody knows whathomeschooling is.
There's world schooling, whichis where you're out, experience
the world and learning throughthat.

(42:39):
There's unschooling, which is abit more aggressively, avoiding
traditional school.
There's forest school wherekids are literally in the woods
most of the day.
There's a road schooling, whichis kind of homeschooling in an
RV, or boat schooling, which ishomeschooling on a boat, and I
think these are all just suchcool ways to learn and I love
finding the success stories.
I'm sure there are lesssuccessful stories, but I like

(43:01):
finding the adults or the lateteenagers that Engaged in some
of these and you know, on thesurface at least, when you meet
them, it looks like they turnedout to be decent human beings.
We did this in Chad, not becausewe're really adamant about
homeschooling, but because itwas our only option in Africa.
And we're still homeschoolingthis year because we love the

(43:21):
flexibility gives us in terms ofscheduling.
Just to be, you know, prudentlyhonest and lazy.
Our kids happened to excel Wellacademically.
You know you said you kind offind that balancing act of how
do you know how much to pushyour kids and that was trial and
error and more error thansuccess, and we still don't have
to figure it out, but we'recloser than we were.

(43:42):
But our kids and again they'realso different from each other,
but they most the Internalizedthat they wanted to push
themselves to get ahead.
So actually for all of thesetrails they got ahead.
They were really Quite farahead in school academically in
terms of what they werecompleting and what testing

(44:03):
would make you think they wereat.
But then we took off sevenmonths the Appalachian trail,
six months for the Connelldivide trail, five months for
the Pacific Crest trail.
So now they're back kind ofknocked down to where they
should be and on the trail Ithink that they they learned a
lot.
They learned a lot of importantlife skills.
They learned, you know, thesocial studies in the history
and the geography and nature andsciences were going by.

(44:23):
You know we feel like we're alittle bit competent to teach
some of that, but this is allverbal stuff.
We tried to bring some pens andpencils and papers and get them
to write in journals and thatwas much more failure than it
was success.
But I mean one of the things wedo verbally down the trail and
weren't singing frozen Once wedo.
We do, you know, verbal math orverbal spelling or just talk

(44:47):
about those things, and my kidshad been actually very, very,
very weak spellers.
I let them really get away withmurder when it came to writing
spelling.
Yeah, handwriting, socialstudies in homeschooling up them
get away with a lot in terms ofthat.
They were excellent readers andthey were really good at math.
But the rest of the stuff kindof slid a little bit.
So by the time we finishedhiking they could do, you know,

(45:10):
a bit of an informal spelling toyou pretty well with us.
And then math my four-year-oldJust love to count on the
Appalachian trail.
I mean, have you've ever heard afour-year-old count to 800?
You know that is so incrediblypainful to listen to.
But she got better at math andon the PCT she was six and she

(45:33):
would love to do math.
And I like what do you want todo?
And she's like I want to countto 100 by twos and then by
threes and by fours, and I meanliterally she would count to 100
all the way up to.
I'm going to count to 100 by 72now, daddy, and 72 and 144 and
and she'd go on.
And this Is my six-year-old andone day.
So another time we were inwhere were we?

(45:54):
We're in Wyoming, in the windrivers, and we were.
The kids wanted to hike allnight.
They said we wanted to hike allday long.
We wouldn't do a night hike.
All the other hikers talk abouthow awesome it is to hike at
night.
That's what I do.
So, awesome so we made it likeRight, and they're done it done
at ten o'clock at night.
So finally about 11 we find agood campsite and everybody's in
bed and asleep.
But we're getting out of thewoods the next day.

(46:16):
So we're like up early, thekids are excited, we want to get
out of the woods and so we'rehiking up.
So they're on like almost nosleep.
And my six-year-old is like,daddy, there's one thousand four
hundred forty minutes in a day.
Now is it, excuse me?
She's like yes, but how did youfigure that out?
She's like well, there's 60minutes in an hour, 24 hours in
a year, I mean in a day.

(46:38):
So 60 times 20 is one thousandtwo hundred, and then four times
60 is two hundred forty, andthen one thousand two hundred
plus two hundred forty, it's onethousand four hundred forty
hours.
Like you're just shut up,you're six, you're freaking me
out, like just stop.
But they got to this pointwhere, anyways, she especially
just really really love to dothe math.
So so they didn't end up toofar behind.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
They were behind, but then caught up again and now
they're kind of back about wherethey should be but so
interesting, this idea of beingbehind, because you know what it
, what it sounds like, is thatthey're so far ahead in In in
these other things that we mightactually value more than this,
you know, expectation of whattheir math skills might be by X

(47:24):
age, like you know, when I'm,especially when I'm hearing
about You're just the curiosity,so.
So my son does go to ForestSchool, is out right on all day,
yeah, and they do this thingcalled place-based learning,
which is like, as the worldaround us changes, we learn
about the world within thatcontext, and so as the seasons

(47:45):
change, as the moon is doingdifferent things, as you know,
somebody stumbles upon somethingcurious in nature and they're
always tying it back to like.
They can tie into like, oh,this is actually an opportunity
for us to kind of teach somebasic math because of how this
is unfolding, or yeah.
Or this is a biology lesson, oran astronomy lesson, like all
these different you, or a sociallesson of like you know, how do

(48:06):
we resolve conflict, and soVery much in agreement with that
.
And and for me, the thing Isucked at math, no matter what,
like at every level.
I was probably behind at everylevel and I think it was because
I Conceptually never reallylearned to like, think about
math from the macro level oflike how does this actually
apply?
So one, I love that you know,coming back to your idea, like

(48:27):
you're sitting there with yourthoughts, like she was with her
thoughts, breaking down math inthis logical way that fit for
her to the to, to the extentthat now she probably has a
better foundation for math thanmost kids because she
understands it.
So, at such a foundational level, versus just like what most
education is, is regurgitationright, can you just regurgitate,

(48:50):
you know, replicate, and justthat man, that natural curiosity
is awesome.
But I think that, like you know, I love you know one I always I
have to give you credit foryour humility, but I love that
you know you, you very humbly,are talking about these like
very deliberate things thatyou're doing that are just
incredible, like and I thinkthat the thing that came to mind

(49:12):
when you talked about this liketalking school, is they and I'm
gonna totally butcher this, butI think it was Socrates they
used to have these likeparapetetic schools where the
whole school was done likewalking around.
So really, you've just createdthis like modern-day Socratic
parapetetic school where youphilosophize about you know All

(49:32):
these things as you're on thetrail, but you know I was going
for?
yeah, that's exactly what you'regoing for, right?
No, but I think you know when Ithink about if I had to give
have the choice of mysix-year-old being caught up on
what state standards mathematicsis, or would I rather have them
have the resilience and the,the fortitude and the

(49:54):
self-confidence to be able to dosomething like this.
Like ten out of ten times I'mtaking the resilience, the
self-confidence, the fortitude.
So, yeah, the math stuff thatthat'll all catch up at some
point, or maybe it won't,because maybe, you know, I don't
use math ever.
So, yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
So I mean that's one of the things we try to tell the
kids is, from now on, like, youhave no excuse in life.
Like you, you know that you cando hard things.
You've done hard things.
Like right now, we're kind ofwe took them to go skiing and
snowboarding and learn that thiswinter and they're like, oh,
it's hard, it's hard, I can't doit.
I'm like you, height, you justwalked 8,000 miles.
Like you've walked more than99.999% of children like come on

(50:35):
, you, you can do this, juststick it out, try it for another
day.
And now that I mean now, theyall love it.
But Every time it gives me anice comeback, every time they
say, daddy, this is hard, andthey go come on, you've done
hard things.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
That's exactly why you are gonna be able to do it,
because you can do hard things.
So, yeah, man, that'sincredible.
Probably you hiked more than99% of all humans that have ever
existed ever.
Except when humans weremigrating across the continents.
I mean that's, that's soawesome, they're pretty.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, they can tell you like okay, looking at the
elevation profile of this daddy,I think we can do like 2.3
miles an hour today for like 12hours and Make you be taking
like for 20 minute breaks, andthat means that we can go this
far.
You can see their brains likerattling off.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
It's brilliant man, that's incredible.
I mean so beyond, you know the,the physical benefits, you know
I hear some social benefitslike, like, what do you think
your kids are taking away in inlife From these experiences like
you talk about?
We can do hard things, thefortitude, all this like.
Is there anything else thatcomes To mind when you think
about like these, these reallyvaluable life lessons that

(51:43):
they're gonna take with them forthe rest of their lives?

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Well, I think it's a lot of what you touched on and
also, I mean, I do hope that itreally strengthens us as a
family that we have this Commonshared experience.
That is so rare, but yeah, itwas so precious, so foundational
.
You know, my kids were alreadypretty close to each other
because, you know, growing up inChad they were they were the

(52:07):
only American kids there at thehospital.
They really only had each otherthat could understand their
background.
And I mean, even now, comingback to America, you know they
have American passports, butthey're not really.
Americans.
They've grown up, you know,wildly different, like it's hard
to imagine many cultures thatare more 180 degrees to American
culture than where they grew up.
But they're not really chattingeither because they're they're

(52:30):
very different from chattingculture, so they're kind of some
mix in between and, really,people that haven't grown up in
that sort of in-between culturesworld my kids have trouble
relating to them, frankly, but Ido hope that this is Really a
solidifying thing for themtogether as Siblings, something

(52:51):
that they can always look backon, hopefully fondly.
We, we joke every time somebodysays your kids will never
forget this and we say, yeah, nomatter how much therapy they
have, I'll never forget it.
But I do hope that they cantake away, you know, like we
said, the social aspect learningTo seek out that common ground

(53:11):
with anybody, no matter whattheir background is, learning
that they can accomplish reallyhard things, learning the value
in Contributing to a team andtaking on responsibility.
Yeah, I hope that those are alltakeaways that stay with them.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
As parents, we're all kind of worried about how we're
screwing up our kids, and surethat we're screwing up our kids
in 46 different ways.
But you know, hopefully we endup a little bit ahead of the
curve here and or shoot, I'll behappy if we land on the curve
even.
Yeah, that our kids are, arevery resilient, and I mean kids

(53:53):
everywhere are so much morecapable than really.
We wanted to give them creditfor it, maybe not.
You know, you go out once andyou try something and maybe it's
an utter failure, and and soyou say, all my kid can't hack
that.
Maybe.
But maybe we just set out withthe wrong expectations, the
wrong attitude.
Maybe we come back to it againand again.
Maybe we can get a little bitbetter outcome, Hmm, well, I

(54:15):
definitely don't have theparenting thing, master dyes,
it's a work in progress verymuch.
I mean I got five kids, my wife, when I joke, okay, if we have
a six kid, then we're gonna,we're gonna figure out how to do
, how to be good parents, that'syeah, if we get the sticks one.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
No, I mean it's.
It's interesting to even justthe.
You sound like you have thebenefit of a beginner's mindset,
but also I keep hearing thisidea of experimentation, of
trial and error.
That's how you're learning,where, even with education,
you're not really an expert andall these things, and yet you

(54:51):
sought out talking to all thesepeople to okay what seems to
have the best outcomes and let'stry some things and let's do
things as we're going and we'reconstantly iterating.
And I think it comes back tothat like constantly checking in
.
And I think that I've said thisbefore to another dad on the
podcast of you know that I thinkthe probably the worst parents
are the parents that are like Igot it all figured out, I am

(55:15):
doing everything perfect, I amkilling it at this parent thing,
like I think that's the onethat's probably needs the most
work, right, whereas the parentsthat are man, like you know,
they're constantly trying toimprove, they're trying to be
better, they're trying to finddifferent ways and like, yeah,
we tell we all screw things up.
I've screwed things up thismorning, screwed things up
yesterday, for sure, but it'sjust.

(55:36):
You know, I think the greatparents are the ones that are
constantly trying to be better.
And I think about my own dad.
I just had my dad visited.
We talked for hours about stuffabout his own life that I had
no idea, and I said you know, Ihave the utmost empathy for
previous generations, especiallywhen they're a significant
improvement on the priorgeneration.

(55:57):
Right, and I'm hearing.
You know my, when I was a kid,my knock on my dad was always
that my dad was too strict, myparents were too strict.
You know it's so unfair.
And then I hear about howstrict my grandparents were.
And I'm like wow, my dad was notstrict at all Like that I had.
I was laissez-faire as far as,as far as like the year, the

(56:17):
generation over generationcomparison.
So no, I just, yeah, reallyapplaud the beginner's mindset,
the constant iteration, thetesting.
Yeah, I think your kids arevery fortunate to have the dad
that they have and the mom thatthey have.
So, yeah, it was funny.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
I opened it up to my kids the other day.
We went to just a playground atHalfmont on the street and
walking back I was very, very,very, very nervous about what my
kids would say and I asked themtwo things.
Well, two things.
I said what do you think aboutmommy and daddy's marriage?
Do you think that we're happy?
And I really was not sure.

(56:55):
I mean my kid, my wife and kidswere around me like 24, seven
for five months here hiking onthe trail in a stressful
environment, and I certainlydidn't comport myself perfectly.
So nothing, you know nostresses between me and my wife
were hidden from the kids.
You just can't hide them outthere.
And my kids all of them cameback and said, no, you seem

(57:17):
really happy, like your marriageseems great.
And I was like, oh, okay.
And then I said what do youthink about mommy and daddy's
parents?
Like why have you learned fromour parenting or from our
marriage that you would dodifferently?
Or that you think that we dowell and what?
My now 10 year old daughter,she was like, well, I think you
did everything right.
And my kids were very, verygracious and they're like no, I

(57:40):
like we wanted and and they'relike we're going to go live in
Africa with our kids and we'regoing to hike these long trails
with our kids.
Like really, are you sure youguys are okay, we brainwashed
you somehow.
But yeah, yeah it's.
I think that what I would wantto do.
You know you, always I don'twant to do overs.

(58:00):
I love where my life is, I lovewhere my kids are, I love where
my family's at, I love where mymarriage is at.
If I were to do something over,I would just try to be more
present, especially in the dayjust social media, I mean, it's
so easy to be home and to bestaring at a screen or whatever.
But to be more emotionallypresent and to be a whole lot

(58:20):
more patient.
You know, I don't beat my kids,like none of that but to just
be less snappy, to be lesscritical, to be more encouraging
to.
You know, I don't, I certainlydon't coddle my kids at all but
to be more encouraging verbally,physically, and, yeah, to just
be a.
I'm not great when it comes topatience.

(58:42):
And I mean, you know we're notabusing our kids or anything.
Well, people think we'reabusing our kids but we're not
beating our children.
Yeah, we make them walk a lot.
But you know, I just I thinkabout the times that, like you
talked about our dads.
My dad, I she also just lefttoday.
He was here watching our kidswhen we traveled off to
Washington last week.
You know the and my dad wasmaybe a little bit short

(59:09):
tempered, short fuse, but againhe wasn't like hitting me.
I know I have a wonderful dad,a wonderful childhood.
But then I think, man, heseemed snippy to me and I,
looking at myself, I feel likeI'm so much snippy You're like.
So I told my kids you said, ohyou're, you're doing a great job
as parents.
I was like you know what, if Ihave one advice, be more patient
with your kids than I was withyou.
And I keep trying to tellmyself that I keep falling back

(59:30):
into why can't you just do this?
Yeah, I don't know.
Being a parent is hard and wehave to strike that balance
between cutting ourselves someslack as dads and always still,
always trying to do better.
It's a tough line.
I mean, I don't get me wrong,being a mom is a tough job too.

(59:52):
Being a dad is one of thehardest but most important
things that we can do in ourlives.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
Absolutely, I think you said it perfectly.
Yeah, I am also working on thepatience, not being so snippy
and just trying to remember man,the noise and the chaos, and
one day they're going to be outof the house and I'm going to be
like man, it's quiet.
I could use a little chaos, Icould use a little a little
somebody, you know, running awayfrom me when I'm trying to put

(01:00:19):
their pants on and all these funthings.
And, yeah, trying to just zoomout a bit and so that I can be
more present.
And I think it's.
It's always so helpful to hearother dads are struggling with
that and trying to really makesure that they do that.
And, you know, I think it'sconversations like this that
really help us stay accountableand go back to our kids after

(01:00:39):
this call and give them a hugand really recommit to that.
So, you know, I think you saidit perfectly and I think that's
a perfect place to land theplane and, you know, the I'll
bring it back to something Isaid in the beginning about why
I was so excited to talk withyou is around.
You know, athlete dad, we havethese three core pillars of
modeling ambition, striving forbalance and intentional
integration, and I thinkintentional integration is often

(01:01:01):
the most difficult of the three.
It's much more easier to go outand be ambitious and show our
kids like this is how we shoulddo this and try to strike a
balance.
It's really hard to bring ourkids along with that, and so I
just want to applaud you againfor absolutely modeling ambition
, striking balance, butmasterfully crushing intentional
integration, bringing yourfamily into the mix.

(01:01:23):
So I've learned a ton.
I have a whole page full ofnotes, of stuff that I've taken
away from this conversation, andI know our dad's listening at
home probably have equal amountof takeaway.
So thank you so much again.
I'm excited to follow along onthe journey and see what you all
get up to next and where youget up to next, and just want to
say thanks again for taking thetime to impart some wisdom.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Thanks, it's been a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Hey, everyone, just want to take a minute here to
share some resources with you.
So we have taken all of thegreatest insights from our first
season of the athlete dad anddistilled them down into a guide
, a free guide for you 10 lifelessons from athlete dads where
we're going to hear all aboutthe best stuff that they talked
about around modeling, ambition,seeking balance and intentional

(01:02:09):
integration.
You can get this guide for freeat theathletadcom slash guide.
That's theathletadcom slashguide.
To pick up your free copy ofthis amazingly distilled
resource that I know you'regoing to get a ton of value of.

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#12: Olen Netteberg (Long Distance Hiking Dad) - The Adventure of Fatherhood on the Triple Crown Trails

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#12: Olen Netteberg (Long Distance Hiking Dad) - The Adventure of Fatherhood on the Triple Crown Trails