Apex Cool Labs Revolutionizing Athletic Performance: The Narwhal Palm Cooling Technology with Ariel & Evy - Episode #231

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Episode #231 promises to transform your understanding of athletic performance and recovery through the cutting-edge device, the Narwhal. Learn about Apex Cool Labs' palm cooling technology with co-founders Evy Lyons and Ariel Paul. Sparked by a Huberman Lab podcast, gain exclusive insights into how this remarkable tool is optimizing the game for elite athletes, including NHL player Zach Hyman during the Stanley Cup Finals.

Evy and Ariel share personal anecdotes and the iterative process that refined their product into a game-changer for exercise recovery and performance. The potential of palm cooling is undeniable, with real-world applications enhancing interval training, CrossFit, and even the gruelling Firefighter Challenge League.

Beyond traditional sports, learn how palm cooling is meeting the unique needs of athletes in adapted sports and those facing extreme conditions, like firefighters. Discover optimal usage times, benefits for heart rate reduction, and the supportive, competitive spirit within the firefighting community. Don’t miss this chance to revolutionize your fitness routine with insights directly from the innovators themselves!

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Podcast today, featuring theApex Cool Labs team.
Evy and Ariel Join the show toshare a bit about palm cooling.
If you're not familiar withthis yet, you should be, because
every athlete in five to 10years will be using some form of
palm cooling technology.

(00:28):
Today we get to talk about theNarwhals from Apex Cool Labs, If
you haven't heard of them yet.
It's a nice sleek copper pieceof equipment that allows you to
cool your hands.
You may have actually seen avideo of Zach Hyman doing this,
the Stanley Cup Finals leadingscorer, currently cooling his
hands mid game.
Now, I know it seems a littlequirky, but I promise the

(00:52):
performance benefits areincredible and we go into
details during this episode.
But we should also talk aboutthe fact that the Oilers are
down 0-2 in the Stanley CupFinals.
As of this recording, CaitlinClark got snubbed from Team
USA's Olympic roster.
That's crazy, in my opinion.
I cannot believe it.
And the third thing that weshould all be aware of is the
fact that Perfect Sports now hasCanadian maple protein back in

(01:16):
stock.
If you have not heard me talkabout it yet I've not been doing
my job properly.
Use the code AP20.
Try this protein out.
I promise it will be the bestflavor that you ever try, and if
you don't like it, let me knowand I'll question your taste
buds.
But either way, this is the231st episode of the show.
We get to talk about all thingspalm cooling, creatine,
performance, firefighting.

(01:37):
In this episode there's a tonjam-packed.
Clearly the protein wants me.
I want you to listen to thisepisode.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get to the episode herewe go.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
You're the most decorated racquetball player in
US history, world's strongestman, from childhood passion to
professional athlete, eight-timeIronman champion.
So what was it like making yourdebut in the NHL?
What is your biggest piece ofadvice for the next generation
of athletes, from underdogs tonational champions?
This is the athletes podcast,where high performance

(02:09):
individuals share their triumphs, defeats and life lessons to
educate, entertain and inspirethe next generation of athletes.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Here we go no, uh, the stanley cup final has been
good.
The oilers have seemed slightlyunder I don't know the best way
to describe it.
They haven't performed up tothe standard as which that we
became expected to over thefirst three rounds, and I think
that's also because Florida is areally dang good team.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
What I notice is their defense.
Florida's defense is justbrutal.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah.
So Paul Maurice is anincredible coach.
I like start by saying thathe's had a ton of experience in
winnipeg, now transferring toflorida, I think the other
aspect is like florida hasreally good management.
They were there last year.
They were hungry, they justmissed the cup and so those guys
got a taste of what it was likeand they really want to make
sure that they get back and theywin that thing.
They weren't touching thateastern conference trophy and

(03:04):
they're hungry for it.
Barkov's one of the best in theleague, most underrated players.
They also have Luongo at thehelm, which is why I'm wearing
this jersey.
Team Canada.
I struggle because I want tosee a Canadian team win the Cup,
but I also want to see all ofthe individuals on Florida who
deserve a Cup get that W.
We're just happy we get to seegood hockey being played, apex

(03:27):
Cool Labs being used during theStanley Cup finals.
That's got to be a pretty dangcool experience for you two.
Why don't you start off byintroducing yourselves and then
sharing a bit about palm cooling, how the narwhals are taking
the NHL to the next level?

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Sure, yeah, I'm Evie Lyons.
I'm co-founder and CEO of ApexSchool Labs, and this is Ariel
Paul.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
And I'm the co-founder and CTO of Apex
School Labs.

Speaker 4 (03:52):
And he invented the device that we have, which is
called the Narwhals, which is apalm cooling device that is used
to enhance performance, improverecovery in all sorts of
different sports and trainingenvironments.
We can dive into that, but oneof the main use cases of the day
is the use case for acceleratedrecovery in between periods

(04:15):
during the Stanley Cup finals.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
How the heck does something like this come about
Because I'm holding this rightnow for those watching on
YouTube the narwhal comes in anice case.
We got our protective aspecttoo.
It's great because we broughtthis to the hockey rink a couple
days ago with the StreetFighters is our beer league team
name, actually and we got acouple of AHL guys on there
Devante Stevens, michael Regish,amongst other individuals and

(04:44):
you know we were.
I took full, full criticism.
I didn't get the the narwhalsfrozen completely, but we did
get the premise and the boyswere excited about being able to
use it for the rest of theseason, and I'm excited to use
it in the gym.
Where did this kind of comeabout?
Because it's not justfirefighters, which we know

(05:05):
we're going to talk about, andit impacts positively.
It's not just for athletes, butit's for gym goers, weekend
warriors.
This is a tool that everyonecan use realistically, right.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Absolutely yeah.
The basic premise of palmcooling is that in the palms of
our hands, the soles of our feetand also our cheeks, we have
what's known as glabrous tissue,and in this tissue we have
special vasculature calledarteriovenous anastomosis, which
are direct connections betweenarteries and veins, and what

(05:38):
this enables is an extraordinaryblood flow, especially when we
are working out, when we are hot, and so what you're really
doing by cooling your palms iscooling your blood, which runs
through your circulatory systemand has systemic effects on your
performance.
So there are a couple mainbenefits that are going to
happen here.

(05:58):
One core body temperaturehighly correlated to your heart
rate, and so by cooling downyour core body temperature via
your palms, you quickly reduceyour heart rate, which is
important in breaks incompetitions whether that's
basketball, hockey, any sportthat has a break you can quickly
accelerate recovery and takethe court or ice stronger.

(06:20):
It's also cooling down yourmuscles.
So, Ariel, maybe you want toexplain a little bit what
happens in our muscles whenwe're working out and why heat
becomes such a problem.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, so your skin, your fascia, your muscles
themselves are actually greatinsulators.
So what's very interestingabout our perception of heat is
our conscious perception oftemperature.
We only have conscious accessto the periphery of our body,

(06:53):
our skin surface.
So you can actually be quitewarm internally within your
muscles and not know it in asense.
So if you're doing, forinstance, a set of pull-ups,
till failures, locallyinternally your muscles can get
quite hot and that heat isdifficult to get out because all
those layers are insulatory.
But when that internaltemperature of your muscles

(07:15):
starts to reach about 102degrees Fahrenheit, you have an
enzyme known as muscle pyruvatekinase which is responsible for
the local production of ATPwithin your cells and that
enzyme gets inhibited by heat.
One way to think about that isa bit of a safety mechanism,
since you have no internalaccess to that internal

(07:38):
temperature of your muscles.
Your muscles can actually getcellular damage if they start to
cook themselves, if they gettoo hot.
So what happens is, as yourmuscles get hot, that enzyme
starts to degrade.
It shuts off that localproduction of ATP and that's one
of the main mechanisms in thatfeeling of failure.
Oh, I can't do another repBecause you know if you do

(07:59):
something like a set of push-upsor bench press or pull-ups till
failure.
If you wait some time you cando a whole another set.
So by cooling our blood thatruns through our muscles, we're
able to take out that heat quiteeffectively, kick in that ATP
production sooner and then beable to perform better in terms

(08:21):
of volume, being able to do morereps on our next set.
So there's that.
Where that big performancebenefit comes in in the gym is
that if we're intercept palmcooling, if we're cooling
between sets of exercise, we canbasically perform better with
more energy on the next set.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Ariel, so you just explained all of this.
You talked about ATP.
I know some of the benefitsthere.
I'm curious, though could I notjust throw some ice on my body
to cool down my muscles?
What makes the narwhal soamazing?

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yeah, I mean really the secret sauce to palm cooling
.
Like we said, you're trying tocool your blood.
So if you hold something thatis too cold, those arteriovenous
anastomosis are going tovasoconstrict, they're going to
shut down.
Your hands will turn white.
So if you hold ice, it's toocold, you shut down that effect.
You're no longer transmittingthat beautiful blood flow

(09:23):
through your palms and so you'renot cooling your blood.
So the secret sauce is to beholding something cool, not cold
.
And since heat flows from hotto cold, you want to be holding
something as cool as you canwithout causing vasoconstriction
, and that temperature is kindof in the low 50s Fahrenheit.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Okay, the low 50s Fahrenheit Okay.
And then I read your paper onyour website around creatine
versus palm cooling.
Creatine maybe five to 10%increase in performance.
Apex Cool Labs Narwhal is up tolike 37%.
Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (10:00):
So in that study or in that blog post, what we were
doing is comparing researchthat's been done on creatine and
there's a lot of it, so it's avery well-understood supplement
and the research done on palmcooling in terms of strength
gains.
And what we talk about there isthat in the creatine studies
they talk about how you canexpect roughly a 12% increase in

(10:25):
strength over roughly six toeight weeks.
This was a meta analysis usingcreatine.
So if you just take creatineand you continue doing your
normal workout you know liftingprogram you should be about 12%
stronger than if you did nottake creatine.
When we then looked at some ofthe studies on palm cooling

(10:47):
specifically, there was a studyout of Stanford where they were
doing a sub-maximum bench pressprotocol.
So they had participants doingsix sets of bench press using
about 50, I believe 50% of theirone rep max to basically AMRAP,
am rep every set to am rep overfive weeks, and what they found

(11:09):
was the participants theregained 37% strength compared to
the non palm coolers who aregaining 17% on that protocol.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
There is a lot more research to do and we're not
saying creatine.
Like you know, they claimedbetter than steroids and the
problem with that is if youframe it exactly the right way,
like in terms of recovery andsome of these things.
But the way people think aboutsteroids is hypertrophy and you
can look there are some crazystudies.
Jeff Nippard, who is a Canadianbodybuilder influencer, has a

(12:05):
great summary of this on one ofhis YouTube channels.
There are studies showing thatif you just take steroids and do
no exercise, there are outliersthat gain like 12, 14 pounds of
muscle.
I mean just crazy amounts ofmuscle hypertrophy.
So that's where that's.
Just a bad comparison is thatif people talk about, oh, palm
cooling is better than steroids,what people think about is

(12:25):
hypertrophy and from that pointof view, it's just not.
It's just clearly not betterthan steroids.
But creatine, which one, is oneof the most studied, safest
supplements and the beauty isyou can take creatine and palm
cool and get the benefits ofboth.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
So uh, you mentioned the, the palm coolers, and I and
I now imagine people referringto mouth breathers and non palm
coolers now in the future, as if, like you know, those people
who aren't taking care of theirhealth right.
And you know, I mouth tape atnight, I use VO2 tape.
That has been a game changerfor me.
I now palm cool and I didn'tthink that was something I was

(13:02):
going to be doing 5-10 years ago.
I think I told you guys beforewe started recording.
I used to just grab the bar tocool down my hands at times, but
definitely not getting the samebenefits as the narwhals, and I
guess I'd be curious.
You've only made a few hundredof these products.
You're doing all hand-makingyourself.
You're in the middle of raisingfunds.

(13:23):
What's that process been like?
Different iterations of theproduct Can you share the
founder upbringing story?
I think this would be a superinteresting aspect for our
listeners to learn about and seewhere the origin story is two
years ago, ariel and I did notknow each other.

Speaker 4 (13:43):
We both heard the same podcast, a Huberman Lab
podcast on the topic of palmcooling, and in that podcast
they talk about the benefitsthat you can get from palm
cooling, but not they don'treally explain how to do it.
One of the benefits they talkabout was this incredible gain
in pull-up volume like 144%gains in pull-up volume in six

(14:03):
weeks and as an avidweightlifter, I, who had been
stalled in her pull-ups for manyyears I was like I've got to
get my hands on this technique,and so I tried to hack it with a
bucket of cool water in mygarage gym and I tweeted a sort
of embarrassing video of medoing this and asked the

(14:24):
universe am I doing this rightand was very lucky when Ariel
found my tweet.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah.
So as I've described, you know,on this podcast they really
described the results but nothow you do it.
So it's all published research.
So my background's physics.
I went out, read the papers totry to understand the parameters
you'd want in a cooling deviceLike what is that ideal
temperature range?
And so the first thing I didwas I went out to the local
hardware store, got someplumbing parts and basically

(14:53):
built a cooling loop which youknow you'd is made out of copper
which has good thermalconductivity, so easy to flow
heat from your hands, cool waterrunning through it at the right
temperature kind of that lowfifties and that's having the
nice effect of breaking up anythermal barriers.
If you were just to holdsomething filled with cool water

(15:15):
, you'll quickly locally heat itup.
So this actually gets into someof the secret sauces of palm
cooling, where you want to beholding something that's the
right temperature, you want tobe holding something that's
going to flow heat well fromyour hand and some sort of
mechanism for breaking up thatthermal barrier where any kind
of local heating is gettingdissipated quickly, whisking

(15:36):
away that heat.
And so when I first tried thisdevice it worked so well that I
got curious are there otherpeople trying to do palm cooling
themselves?
Because at the time Stanford wasselling their device, the
CoolMit, but it was a wait list.
You couldn't even buy it and itwas quite expensive at the time
.
So I found Evie's tweet,realized she was only about 45

(15:59):
minutes away.
I said why don't you come overand try this device?
So her and her husband cameover.
Her husband and I soldered upone of these while she did
pushups and pull-ups in mybasement.
She can tell you about thatexperience.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah no, I did.
I one of these while she didpush-ups and pull-ups in my
basement.
She can tell you about thatexperience.
Yeah no, I did.
I did more push-ups andpull-ups than I'd ever done in
my life and I could really.
What really, um, shocked me wasjust this sense of recovery
between sets, like I normallyyou would expect.
You know, set one 20 reps, settwo 12, and this like decline,
and what I noticed was that thethe plateau in that session was
much higher, and so that's alsokind of gets to sort of how is

(16:39):
palm cooling making you stronger?
It's not magic.
It's what it basically is doingis allow you, allowing you to
do more volume in a session, andthat volume over time quickly
adds up to strength gains.
So I was hooked.
Ariel sent me home with theprototype version which I had
connected to a Yeti filled withthe right temperature of water

(17:00):
in my garage gym and use thatfor months.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, and so that was all working.
But I realized that's notreally practical to bring to the
gym.
I have lots of friends who arepretty elite climbers and I was
curious could I make somethingthat I could take to the crag or
take to the gym and it would beportable?
And this was all just a passionproject.
So there were many iterationsand for months my freezer was

(17:25):
filled with different materialsto try different phase change
materials until I kind of hit onthe solution and we got to the
device you see today I brought aset of those to Evie because
she'd been such an amazing fieldtester.
We'd stayed in contact, shebasically since that first early
device.
She's never lifted basicallywithout palm cooling since then.
So I brought her this deviceand she was like you need to

(17:49):
sell these and, like I said, mybackground's physics.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
Evie's a marketer, so I thought, well, maybe we
should sell these, yeah.
So basically we, we launched itwas a year and a half ago, um
and we thought we'd be sellingto people like us fitness
enthusiasts who wanted to, youknow, triple their pull up
volume or whatever, and veryquickly.
This was last year.
Now we were in the hands offour of the Stanley Cup playoff
teams last year and we were kindof blown away by this interest

(18:22):
in, um, basically, uh, athleterecovery, in game recovery, and
this idea of helping people whoare heavily insulated cool down
without taking off all theirgear, which obviously ties into
not only hockey but thefirefighter use case as well.
And so that was one of thefirst moments where we were like
, ok, you know, there, there issomething here that is a little

(18:45):
bit bigger than what we thoughtoriginally.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Yeah, I think of even like race car drivers now
having to wear insane amounts ofgear and then cooling that off
Like uh, ariel, you, just what'dyou have thinking there Got the
wheels turning.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Well, one of our customers is a very high level
moto GP racer so motorcycles andthey use the narwhals
consistently and the way theyuse them is sort of in between
lap recovery, because they'rewearing a lot of gear, they're
heavily insulated, it's hot andapparently there's this effect.
It's an Italian racer, so histrainer I think they call it

(19:24):
like sleepy arm, like that innerarm when they're turning, gets
kind of numb and the narwhals,for whatever reason, that palm
cooling effect helps take awaysome of that numbness and helps
recover better between laps.
So I think, especially duringlike I don't know fully the

(19:44):
format they race in, butdefinitely in practice they use
these extensively.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, we're heading down to Salem at the end of this
month to or next month, I guessto to meet with amber belkin,
who is a uh race car driver outof winnipeg, canada.
Here we like to represent ourcanadians, have that national
pride, but I just imagine I'mlike anyone that's geared up,
that's, you know, sweatingextensively, that's getting hot,
theoretically would benefitfrom this.
I'm like hyper hyperlysis Ibelieve that whatever that term

(20:12):
is where you sweat a lot and I'mlike I know that I would
benefit from these.
I have will continue to speakabout the benefits, but can you
share any insights, testimonials, other individuals?
I know there's conversationsthat are occurring literally in
hours about you know futurepartners, but what it's been
like to have multiple teams inthe Stanley Cup finals using

(20:34):
your product Like, did youimagine this a year and a half
ago when you launched?
Obviously now fire departmentstaking this on other athletes,
high performers it's kind of,you know, in line with the
athletes podcast.
Everyone's an athlete, everyoneis a high performer, everyone
should be benefiting from stufflike creatine, palm cooling,
mouth, nasal breathing, likethese are little things that you

(20:55):
can theoretically make drasticimprovements in your life by
introducing.
Obviously, there's a costassociated with some of these
things.
But where do you guys see thisgoing now, I guess, having gone
from two years and now being inNHL dressing rooms across the
continent?

Speaker 4 (21:15):
Yeah, I mean it was.
You know, when we firstlaunched, we were both working
our jobs, full-time jobs.
I was working, you know my jobwas the chief marketing officer
of a software company.
It was very hard to pull offtwo things at once.
But when we started to getglimpses on TV broadcast, they
pan to the locker room and yousee the product that you're

(21:37):
bringing to market in the handsof pro athletes.
You're like okay, something'sgoing on here and that was
certainly the impetus to go jumpfull in full time.
And obviously I personallynever thought that this was
where my life was going to go.
I think Ariel was alsosurprised by this turn of events
.
But yeah, we have been reallyhonored to work with some of the

(21:59):
most elite athletes out there.
We were fortunate to beconnected with the South
Carolina Gamecocks, the women'sbasketball team, and they were
using the Narwhals during theirundefeated season, including in
their final four nationalchampionship win.
We have athletes across so manydifferent sports using the

(22:22):
narwhals in different ways,whether it's for heat stress
mitigation or training, whetherit's college pro Olympians,
whether it's college proOlympians.
It's really exciting to see.
You know, everybody is hungryfor that edge and anything.
You know, everybody knows thatit's not like one thing that's
going to make the difference.
It's stacking all of theselittle optimizations, and palm

(22:45):
cooling is another tool in thetoolkit.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, I think you know we really we firmly believe
that.
You know, these days no seriousathlete would not consider
their hydration and electrolytebalance right.
You know how important that isand getting the right amount of
electrolytes in during a game,during training, and we feel

(23:10):
like this is just going to bethe same sort of thing that in
five to 10 years basically noone's even got.
People would look at you like,well, why aren't you considering
your thermoregulation by bysome kind of palm or soul
cooling or some sort of toollike that?
Because it's just such anobvious edge, it's such an
obvious benefit.
You know, one thing we'd love tosee is a cultural shift in the

(23:34):
NHL where they're all using it.
You know the teams that usethem use them in the locker room
right now, but they're usingthem more and more and more and
more guys are using them, forinstance, in the NHL.
We would love to see where itbecomes such a ubiquitous thing
that they get used to using iton the bench in between shifts,
because that would be even moreof a game changer, because

(23:55):
you're not getting that recoverythat you could be getting on
the bench.
But there are just logisticsthere, but once it's a cultural
buy-in.
Once the coaches and theplayers are all like, well, we'd
be foolish not to be doing this, I think you'll start to
actually see people using thesekinds of tools right on the
bench.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, I mean, there's no reason why you can't be
sitting next to your waterbottle and as you go grab a
squirt of water, you go palmcool right, like it's.
It's not something that youneed to have strapped on for 510
, 1520 minutes, I think of likea Norma tech and I think when
people look at new modalities torecover, they're like, oh, I
need to be using this for anextended period of time, but,
like, one of the benefits ofpalm cooling is it doesn't take
too too long either.

(24:32):
Right and like I don't know tome, I see it happening and
that's one of the exciting partsabout hosting a podcast like
this is we have thisconversation in june of 2024 and
then in five years, when welook back and every nhl player
is reaching down to squirt theirwater bottle and then grabbing
a palm cool narwhal, on theother hand, like that's what's
going to be exciting to playthis clip back and showcase hey,

(24:55):
yeah, you were right, ariel,and every single team, whether
that's mlb, nfl, nba, nhl is nowadopting some type of palm or
soil cooling.
I guess, like out of curiosity,is there one sport or you know
one area that you've seen itreally impact?
You mentioned the pull-ups.
If I'm a CrossFitter, should Ibe adopting this?

(25:15):
If I'm a High Rocks athlete,who should be using this and
when should they be bringing iton?
And because there's such a bigathletic boulder community, I
figured this is probably thebest place for you guys to be
starting it, so we'll have toget down there and test it out
with some of the athletes downthere as well.
You guys to be starting it, sowe'll have to get down there and
test it out with some of theathletes down there as well.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I palm cooling could
benefit any athlete in any sport.
It really depends.
There's probably differentsports are going to be better
for in game usage versustraining.
Um, you mentioned high rocks.
Um, I actually just flew backlast night from the high rocks
world championships in Nice,france.
Fantastic experience Obviouslynot a sport where you're going

(25:55):
to palm cool during the event,but for training.
It was a huge game changer forme.
So I use palm cooling ininterval work.
So if I'm doing a track workout, for example, I'm running
Norwegian 4x4s, I get threeminutes of rest between my run
intervals.
I'm cooling, I'm getting myheart rate down so that I can go

(26:18):
hard the next time and maintainthat intensity over time.
If you're a CrossFit athlete,you need muscle endurance and
you're going to be working a loton your gymnastics, on your
kipping pull-ups, on yourmuscle-ups, your handstand walks
.
All of that in training isperfect, the perfect type of
training to use palm cooling.

(26:38):
So what CrossFitters need tosort of?
I think elite CrossFitters aretraining very differently than
your average CrossFit class.
Of course, so, they are bringingin rest right.
They're treating their trainingmuch like a weightlifter would,
with proper rest periods.
So that's another thing that'simportant to talk about with
palm cooling is how long do youneed to hold on to the device?

(27:01):
And there definitely should bemore research into this so that
we can start to really narrowthat down into precise
prescriptions, for example.
But the science points to atleast 90 seconds in order to get
that heart rate benefit.
90 seconds in order to get thatheart rate benefit.
Two hands cooling two hands isabout 1.6 times as effective as

(27:24):
cooling one hand.
So if you're short on time,having a narwhal in each hand is
beneficial.
But if you have more time, youcan certainly do just one hand.
If you're, you know hydratingand you're eating, you're doing
other things.
Just one hand.
If you're, you know hydratingand you're eating, you're doing
other things.
If you are doing heavy compoundsets, heavy lifts, you should

(27:47):
be resting anyway at least two,three plus minutes, depending on
your sport and what you'reworking on.
But that's again that's anideal time to be palm cooling.
If you are super heat stressed,that's a different sort of use
case and they're, holding on toa palm cooling device for longer
is advised, and that's likefive, 10 minutes, like that's.
That's when you're reallytrying to bring your core body

(28:07):
temperature down because you areheat stressed.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
And and a really interesting use case we're
actually just about to send aset to one of the premier
leaders in this in terms the USsomething people may not think
about as much, but a use case.
We learned about elite athletesin adapted athletics.
So we're going to be workingwith the wheelchair basketball

(28:32):
team and what we didn't realize.
It does make sense, but Iwasn't aware that if you, for
instance, have a spinal cordinjury below the level of your
injury, you don't sweat becauseyour body is not sending you
know.
Your sweat glands areinnervated, so if you're not
getting that signal to sweat,you don't sweat below there.

(28:52):
So thermal challenges if youhave half your body that's not
sweating and you're working hard, those thermal challenges are
very difficult to meet andapparently these athletes
overheat easily.
So heat stress and thermalregulation is very top of mind
for their trainers.
And that's something we'rereally excited about is working

(29:14):
with that set of elite athletesthat face this different set of
thermal challenges with that setof elite athletes that face
this different set of thermalchallenges.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
It is so crazy that you mentioned that because I
actually witnessed it firsthandat the under 23 basketball
championships that were held inToronto, probably three, four or
five years ago.
I was there with ProfessorCorbett and I was a doping
control officer or dopingcontrol chaperone, I should say,
and that was one of the thingsthat was talked about was the
heat stress and I, being arecent grad from a sport
management degree with no realknowledge of the body and

(29:49):
kinesiology, was like oh wow,that's interesting and you know
I had no way to cope with that.
But now I'm like that makestotal sense and these athletes
could benefit, cope with that.
But now I'm like that makestotal sense and these athletes
could benefit.
Joe Delagreeve, who's a memberof Basketball USA, was on the
pod a while back and I'm likeanything that, to your point

(30:10):
earlier, that athletes can do toget their hands on, to make
them a little bit better,they're going to do so.
It's only a matter of timebefore narwhals are in every
athlete's hands across NorthAmerica.
I'm sure of that.
Tell me about this FirefighterChallenge League.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
So the Firefighter Challenge League is basically a
obstacle race course forfirefighters where they're
simulating what they would do ingear.
So when they're individuallyracing they are in full gear in
their SCBAs on air and they'rebasically racing up a tower with
a hose, packing up uh hoses upto that tower, running back down

(30:43):
the tower, doing a simulatedforcible entry with a
sledgehammer, running anobstacle course, grabbing a
fully charged 240 pound hose,running it down, shooting it at
a target and then carrying 175pound rescue mannequin and I
don't know if you've ever triedthis, I picked one up at the
last challenge like that deadweight and carrying it backwards

(31:07):
.
And what's really cool aboutthis sport is men and women do
the exact same course and wehappen to know one of the elite
women competitors and she beatsmost of the men at this course.
I mean it's really, really coolto see because it's
firefighting, it's the samestandard for everyone, and so

(31:28):
it's just a really impressivesport to see.
It's really cool to watch howquickly people can run this
course.
And if you're there at thecompetition, it's very different
than most competitions in thatduring the competition people
are racing each other.
They're racing hard againsteach other and afterwards
they're giving each otherfeedback oh, here's a technique

(31:50):
you could use to do this better.
It's sort of super competitiveyet super collaborative, because
the nature of firefighting isthey all want to do better.
So it's just a really, reallyneat environment.
It's just not only inspiring towatch people sort of give it
their all.
I mean they end this course.

(32:11):
They call it the toughest twominutes in sports.
They end this course likepeople are pulling off their
gear.
They're kind of like woozycoming off the course.
But the collaborative spirit,the competitive spirit that you
watch there, it's really reallyimpressive.
So that's something that we'renow an official partner with.

(32:31):
We'll be going to a bunch ofthe competitions and helping
people reduce their heat stresswhen they're coming off this
course.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, it's important.
I've got to hook you guys upwith Mitchell Hooper, world's
strongest man, up in BarrieCanada.
This product also is the wayyou were describing the
firefighter community, isidentical to the way he
described the strongmancommunity and obviously the
benefits of palm cooling wouldbenefit these insanely large
individuals who are liftingridiculous amounts.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
We work with a strong man, actually, who happens to
be a firefighter and competes insomething else called World's
Strongest Firefighter, wherethey do things like shoulder
press, fire hydrants and thingslike that.
It's crazy what they do.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
So we had Joe Paonessa on the the show a
couple years ago, when weoriginally started, and he, uh,
was a top fire firefighterstrong man as well.
Uh, I don't know, he might havewon it my memory is failing me.
But either way, these areindividuals.
We'll go through the list of uh230 past guests on the athletes
podcast and hopefully introduceyou to a couple, because they
would all benefit from thisright, and especially when

(33:38):
they're lifting obnoxiousamounts of weight and then
having to perform throughout anentire day, like these are just
little increments that will makemassive changes, and I know for
a fact that, uh, you know,those athletes are looking for
every edge they can get as well.
Right, and when you've got athousand pounds that you're
having to pick up, every littlebit helps.
So, uh, yeah, just I, I'mexcited.

(34:00):
This is cool.
This is a great product.
This is.
I'm fortunate enough to be in aposition where, five years,
almost five years after startingthis show, we get to chat about
these incredible new inventionsand hopefully impact athletes
around the world in a positivefashion, kind of like what you
did, abby.
You know that you just throwout some stuff on the internet
and see what hits, right.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
Yeah, yep, it might change your life.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
It will Only positives that come from it,
because you get yourself outthere, you're putting it out
there and you know what Goodthings come to people who put in
good work.
So I always like to give anopportunity for our guests to
share a little piece wherepeople can find them on socials
if you want to leave our guestswith anything.
In particular, I want to saythank you to both of you for
coming on here sharing a bitabout Apex Cool Labs, what

(34:45):
you're doing in the space.
It impacts me in a couple ofdifferent ways between the
athletes, the individuals we'rechatting with on a weekly basis
here on the show, but also atExpert VR, and the firefighters,
the first responders that areimpacted positively by this.
So I want to say thank youFirst off, foremost, thank you
for the set of narwhals.
I've been using thosefrequently and I want to open

(35:06):
the floor here for you two toshare a little bit before we let
you go and anything else weshould leave Apex Cool Labs or
Ariel and Evy with.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
Absolutely.
So this is new.
This is a little goofy.
On our blog, we do explain howto hack this on your own if you
want to just try it out withoutinvesting and there is a blog
post at apexcollabscom You'llfind it that explains the
parameters for palm cooling,which we've covered over the
course of this podcast.

(35:34):
But I like to talk about themas the four C's podcasts.
But I like to talk about them asthe four C's, and that is you
want something cool, not cold.
You want something that'sconductive.
You want cooling that'scontinuously whisking away the
heat from your body and you wantto make sure you have the right
contact time.
So 90 seconds to three minutesis most people's sweet spot, and
you can absolutely hack thiswith an aluminum water bottle
filled with the righttemperature of water, as long as

(35:55):
you're willing to shake it upas you're holding it, and so we
explain this on our blog.
It's a great way to test it out, see if it works for you, if it
makes sense to invest in thetool.
So I just want to shout thatout.
There's also other resources onthe blog.
If you're interested in thescience, we do our best to
summarize the science that's outthere in an approachable way.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, and I think where we're at right now we hand
build these at my house.
Our price point we recognize,for the average consumer is high
and that's something that we'rewell aware of.
We're in the phases of not onlywe've been raising money but we
have completely redesigned inour walls to set them up to be

(36:35):
scalable for manufacturing andwe do expect in the future, as
we increase our volumes withthat more manufactured device,
to be able to bring a moreconsumer-friendly product to
market.
Right now the people we've beenselling to for the most part
these elite athletic teams orthese professional firefighting
services are okay with thebenefit they're getting for the

(36:58):
price point.
But we do recognize that that'sa place where you know if I were
going to say the value prop,how much do you spend on
creatine and supplements?
This is a supplement in a sense, that you could use over and
over and over again for years.
So that's where I mean Evie andI have been using our personal
sets for basically nearly twoyears now.

(37:19):
So that's where there is quitea lot of value there.
But you know we get that it'san investment for the average
person that.
Try it out first with somethingsimpler.
Try it out hacking it, havesome fun with it and then, if
you want to step up your game toa professionally built tool,
try out the narwhals.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah that's what it's all about.
This technology is brand new,like you said, and it does take
time.
And you know what?
The automatic AI cameras thatare being used now on fields
that are keeping track of kidsand athletes that are playing
without anyone manning thatcamera used to cost tens of
thousands of dollars and nowthey're nominally priced.
Too right, they also got 20million injected.

(38:00):
There's four companies all doingstuff like that, but you know,
all that being said, theseprices come down over time and
when the benefits are there,people are going to use it right
and to your point, it's aninvestment.
I think it's what?
400 bucks right now and youspend creatine, a couple years
worth of that it ends up beingthe same price.
All that being said, it's aworthwhile investment when it

(38:21):
impacts your health positivelyand you can't put a price on
performance.
Honestly, at this stage insociety, you need every step you
can get and I just want tothank you both for coming on
impacting athletes positively.
It's going to be fun to clipthat from five years from now
and watch all these athletesusing Apex Cool Labs all over.
And where can people find youon socials to make sure that

(38:44):
they follow along the journey?
Apex Cool Labs everywhere.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Apex Cool Labs everywhere.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Heck, yeah, heck, yeah.
Thank you guys so much for yourtime.
Thank you folks for listening.
Hope you have a great rest ofyour day.
Just want to say thank you toEvie and Ariel for coming on the
show, apex Cool Labs forsending me this incredible
product that I've been using inthe gym and will continue to use
on the ice and as well aseverywhere else that I bring
this health fitness wellnesspodcast across the country of

(39:09):
Canada as we drive.
At the beginning of July We'llbe at Canadian Track Nationals
at the end of June, down in SanDiego, los Angeles, over the
next week or two.
So if you're around, if you seeme, if you want to get in touch
, hit me a note on Instagram, atDave Stark one, twitter,
wherever else, you find ourpodcast at the athletes podcast.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Be a part of this.

(39:29):
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Bye.