May 2, 2025 • 52 mins
Eleni Demestihas, Director of Hockey Operations for Cookstark Management, shares her journey from law school to becoming an agent for women's hockey players and offers insights on the explosive growth of the PWHL.
• Began as a law school graduate who wanted sports industry education without necessarily practicing law
• Started representing hockey players when many had no agents, particularly focusing on players who weren't national team stars
• Navigated the challenging transition when the PHF merged into the PWHL, which voided all previously negotiated contracts
• Witnessed Vancouver draw nearly 20,000 fans during the PWHL Takeover Tour, making a compelling case for expansion
• Believes Seattle, Vancouver, and possibly Philadelphia are strong candidates for PWHL expansion teams
• Explains how female athletes' social media pages convert at significantly higher rates than male athletes'
• Advocates for housing stipends scaled to cost of living, trade consent clauses, and players receiving jersey sale percentages
• Predicts PWHL expansion teams will be valued at $20+ million, with potential for player equity ownership models
• Emphasizes the importance of younger players seeking representation earlier as the women's game professionalizes
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
you know Jillian Dempsey, one of the players that
I work with.
She was, you know, a captain ofthe Boston team in the PHF.
Like does she?
Is she a draft eligible, and ifso, what does that look like?
Like, are you able to express apreference for a certain
location?
She ended up going to Montreal,which was like really, really
wild.
Like, if you're listening tothis and you're a men's hockey
fan, it was literally like ifPatrice Bergeron got relocated
(00:20):
to Montreal and played for theHabs for the season.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Like, what's going on everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof the athletes podcast.
We hope you had a fantasticweek.
Hope all you guys have enjoyedsome awesome playoff hockey.
I know I have.
That LA Edmonton series is justridiculous.
If you're on the east coast,you're not staying up for it
would highly recommend that youdo so one night while you can.
(00:43):
That stuff is amazing.
While we're on the topic ofhockey, how about we talk about
those pwhl expansion teams?
We got vancouver, we gotseattle.
It's gonna rock that vancouvergame.
The takeover series waselectric from what I saw.
I know dave was there.
He had just amazing things tosay about it.
That place is gonna be packed.
It's gonna be awesome.
(01:04):
Same Same with Seattle.
That place brings the energy.
See it with a Kraken.
It's going to be electric.
On the topic of these PWHLteams, our guest today is Eleni
Damesdehas.
She's Director of HockeyOperations for Quick Start.
Management has a great catalogof players under her belt.
She's got PWHL players, ncaaplayers, sweet players in Sweden
(01:24):
, players in youth sports.
Nothing but amazing things tosay about her.
She's fantastic.
You're going to love her.
In this episode she brings aton of insight into the world of
women's sports.
You're going to love it.
So, without further ado, let'sget right into it.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
You're the most decorated racquetball player in
US history, world's strongestman From childhood passion to
professional athlete, eight-timeIronman champion.
So what was it like making yourdebut in the NHL?
What is your biggest piece ofadvice for the next generation
of athletes, from underdogs tonational champions?
This is the Athletes Podcast,where high-performance
(01:57):
individuals share their triumphs, defeats and life lessons to
educate, entertain and inspirethe next generation of athletes.
Here we go Eleni Damesdias Isaid it wrong that time.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
See, we practiced it.
You did it right.
You just like over-pronouncedit, but it's technically correct
.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Okay, that's a perfect way to start it off,
because I always am trying toimprove and that's just how we
operate at Cookstark Management.
We were talking there aboutRyan, the fact that he's been an
amazing addition to the teamover the past year, almost that
he's been working with us.
You elevating CookstarkManagement hockey to what is
(02:37):
crazy.
I don't know You've got more tosay than I do on this topic
because you're the expert in it.
Eleni, welcome to the AthletesPodcast.
A little CSM AP crossover today.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
I would love for you tointroduce yourself personally,
how you've come from HecateSports, coming across to
Cookstark Management, joiningthe fun team over here and we're
(03:00):
making an impact.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
Uh, big fan of the podcast, soit's cool to be like on it.
Um, I so I actually went to lawschool.
Like I came straight throughfrom undergrad, didn't really
wasn't planning on using mydegree, my undergrad degree,
like I knew I wanted to get apost-grad degree.
I thought about doing sportsmanagement.
(03:22):
I took the LSAT grad degree.
I thought about doing sportsmanagement.
I took the LSAT, did prettywell on it.
I liked the idea of likereading and writing as a job.
Ended up in law school thesummer before I graduated from
undergrad, which was the year,like the summer, that I was
studying for the LSAT.
I was an intern for an NWSLteam on the ops side and I was
studying for the LSAT and one ofthe players on the team I mean,
(03:43):
they knew my name and I waslike waiting for them to be done
because I was going to do theirlaundry.
So I was just like sittingoutside the locker room waiting
for them to finish so I couldget their stuff.
And she walked out and she waslike I'm really glad you're
going to law school because thesport needs people like you and
I was like, well, maybe I shouldgo into sports then.
School like everybody wants tobe an agent, everyone wants to
be in sports, in law school likesolidly 35% of especially the
(04:11):
guys that you meet in law schoolare like, yeah, I want to be a
GM.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Whatever, you're talking about Brock sport
management grad, where everyoneand their mom wanted to be
sports agents.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So yeah, yeah, it's pretty common and it's kind of a
difficult space to get into.
I think you know when you, ifyou're coming at it from the
angle of being in law school,the way that it's taught to you
is basically like you have to goto a big law firm that does
sports stuff and just like, doyour time and and get in with
the right partners and then youcan kind of do sports law stuff
and I knew I wasn't going to dothat.
I.
I didn't really go to lawschool to practice law like it
(04:38):
was more I wanted whatever I didafter law school, I wanted to
have the education of a lawyer,I wanted to have the JD, I
wanted to know the ins and outsof contracts.
I spent a lot of time focusingon licensing, so copyright and
trademark stuff.
That was a big part of what Idid in law school.
I worked for a major leaguesoccer team, did a bunch of
brand deals for them, and then Iwent and worked for Dunkin'
(05:00):
Donuts and did a bunch of branddeals for sports teams from the
brand side.
Like we did a Chargersagreement.
We did the Orlando MLS and NWSLteams while I was at Dunkin'
and I graduated at a time whenyou basically just had to take
whatever job you had, because itwas like, right as COVID
happened, I graduated in May2020.
So I took the first job that Icould get, which was like at a
(05:22):
law firm.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Fun times for the grads of those years as one of
them in 2019, and with manyfriends in the sports space who
were impacted.
Yeah, it was a tough time.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I basically just took whatever job I could get and I
had just moved here and I hadbeen around the women's hockey
space because I got involvedwith the Ice Garden, which is a
women's hockey blog while I wasin law school.
Just like, so that I wouldn'tlose my mind, I was just I was a
content creator for them.
So I went to a bunch of games.
I was at a lot of college CWHL,nwhl games and I had some
(05:57):
friends that were media membersand players started to ask them
to ask me questions because theyknew who I was and they knew
that I had been to law schooland at the time most players did
not have agents and the playersthat did have an agent were
mostly working with Lander.
So I knew him, I knew of him.
Players started to ask mequestions.
I started to joke around withmy friends that I should start
(06:19):
an agency and they were all kindof like just do it, it's not.
It's like actually not funny,you should just do it.
So I did Um, but before that um, the way that I got really
connected with Lander was thathe ended up in a situation with
a player, um, back in the PHFdays.
Um and he had questions about,like, whether or not what had
happened was against, uh, us law, cause he's he, you know, has a
(06:45):
great background in Canadianlaw.
But this happened in the US andhe knew who I was and he knew
how to reach me and he called meand I helped him out with that
situation.
So I had a good relationshipwith him from the beginning.
I think I always admired, likeobviously, the space that he was
in was something that I wasalso excited about and and from
that conversation alone, like Iknew how much he cared Because,
like he was really like he didnot have to work as hard as he
(07:07):
worked to make that situationbetter.
He could have looked at theplayroom and like I'm sorry,
like there's nothing I can doabout this, and he was like
going to find a way to make itas good as he could make it.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I think that's what stands out about Lander, that's
what stands out about you, thepeople we've been bringing on.
Like work ethic is kind of theminimum standard that we set and
you need those kind of people,especially in this space.
Various reasons, and it wasreally clear to me immediately
that he really cared a lot aboutthe girls, that he was working
with and what their experiencewas like and how they were
(07:50):
feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So I started my agency and I actually kind of
came at it from the angle oflike you know, everybody should
be able to have an agent.
Like like at the time there wasthis thought process for a lot
of people that, like only thetop players in the world or
whatever, only like the topnational team players needed
agents.
And I kind of came at it froman angle of like that doesn't
(08:15):
need to be true.
Like there can be affordableoptions for bottom six players
and backup goalies, and likeeverybody should have the
ability to have, you know, anagent to work with to help them
feel empowered and to help themtake care of the stuff off the
ice that distracts from theirability to focus on the game.
So that was kind of my missionstatement when I started.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Kind of like how everyone is an athlete if they
have the ability to move theirbody and express motion, like we
deserve those things as humanrights, and that was what stood
out why.
You know, when lander and Iconnected a couple years ago, I
saw what he was doing in hockeyand it was like these are people
that deserve the same treatmentthat us men have been getting
(09:00):
for decades.
Yeah, and you, the sports spacewas just, you know, decades
behind, frankly.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, it's the same.
I mean, I definitely came at itfrom, like, look like your
fourth line NHL players haveagents like those guys that are
just busting their butts to tryto make a million dollars a year
to get a one year contract inthe NHL.
They're not doing that bythemselves, they have someone,
and I wanted that to be whatthis space looks like too.
And it turns out like if you'regood at that and you make
(09:31):
players feel heard and you makethem feel prioritized, you pick
up all different kinds ofplayers, and I ended up having a
huge range of players, fromthat type of player that I first
intended to represent all theway up to you know, I ended up
with a 13th overall pick lastseason and it just kind of
snowballed from there.
But, um, I had my deal.
I mean, that's all her that was.
(09:53):
I was there, but like she's theone who played the hockey that
got her to that spot.
But I, uh, I had my agency fortwo months before the merger
happened and all of thecontracts that I had negotiated
for the coming PHF year werevoided.
So I had to start from scratchand I you know Lander and I were
obviously in the same spot inthat respect and I kind of kept
(10:17):
connected with him.
But, like, at that point, wewere all so frantically trying
to figure out what was happeningthat, like you, were never
going to enter into a spacewhere you were like, let's talk
about what, like a merger of ourbusinesses might look like,
like you know.
So we went through the firstdraft.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I remember sitting at that draft.
I've got this puck here that Iwas fortunate enough to be a
part of in Toronto and theamount of unknown when people
were sitting was crazy.
I, again in full transparency,like, was going being a part of
this, was just trying to soak itall up.
There was so much unknown Teams, locations like it.
(10:56):
Can you maybe shed some lighton that too, because you had the
ins?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, I mean I think that we knew even before the
merger happened.
We had an idea of what like theshortlist for locations was,
because the story that summerwas basically like the PWHPA was
ready to launch a league andthey were going to do it
regardless of what was happeningwith the PHF.
So like I had a kid who wasgraduating from Harvard and was
having was getting interest fromboth the PHF and the PWHPA and
(11:22):
they had this like um info call.
The P2HPA folks had this infocall where they were like
there's going to be a league.
We can't like we don't knowwhen the draft is going to be
yet, but sometime this fall, youknow, and we knew that, like we
, like most of the teams that wehave today I knew were on the
shortlist, ottawa was the wildcard Cause at the time they were
talking about either London,ontario or DC, which, like I
(11:47):
think ultimately I think theyreally wanted to have a balance
of Canadian and US markets,which makes a ton of sense, and
I'm glad they went with Ottawa.
I think it works, but it wasdefinitely like we didn't know
until the last second that thatwas going to be a place.
The eligibility rules forentering the draft were not
totally clear because it was nota college draft and it still
today is not a college draft, itis an entry draft.
(12:08):
So it's kind of a differentthing.
And it was like okay, like ifyou know Jillian Dempsey, one of
the players that I work with,she was, you know, a captain of
the Boston team in the PHF Like,is she draft eligible and if so
, what does that look like?
Like are you able to express apreference for a certain
location?
She ended up going to Montreal,which was like really, really
wild.
Like if you're listening tothis and you're a men's hockey
(12:32):
fan, it was literally like ifPatrice Bergeron got relocated
to Montreal and played for theHabs versus season.
Like that is the level of likeidentity meshing that she has
with the city of Boston.
And then we didn't know, likewhat the contract negotiation
process was going to be like formost of the gms that were
starting like didn't necessarilyknow each other super well,
some of them did.
The coaches got hired like aweek before the draft maybe.
(12:55):
Like it was very, very chaotic,um, but it was fun.
I mean I would say it was typethree fun.
It wasn't fun while it washappening, but looking back on
it, it's really fun to thinkabout.
Like being a part of that, Ihad three players get drafted in
that first draft.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Literally stuff that they write in textbooks right
and like this will probably bestudied and referenced, and you
know there's a lot to be saidfor being able to speak to that.
Going through it and now,having seen that over time
couple different leagues, youknow pros and cons that come
with it.
I think it also probablyhighlights the importance to
(13:32):
your point there around entrydraft that athletes start
looking at this at an earlierage.
Yeah, I mean as a 15 year old.
If you're not signed to anagency, you're probably not
playing in the WHL or going youknow like, and that's not
necessarily where it is now, butit's probably heading that
direction, right graduatingcollege senior, you were kind of
(14:08):
in a place where it it didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You didn't need to be thinking about having an agent
yet.
But I think now, two years in,it's you don't want to be in a
position where you areexperiencing the draft
preparation process with someonethat you don't know.
So it's, it can be reallytempting to wait until you're a
senior and like I think it canwork out and like we are always
happy to sign players at that atthat time.
(14:29):
But I think that as time goeson you're gonna probably see
more and more at leastsophomores, juniors, start to
think about starting thatrelationship and some of it is
like obviously the NILopportunities are going to grow
as as the PHL grows, because thePWHL is going to be on TV
eventually and that sort ofstuff trickles down just like it
does for men's hockey players.
(14:50):
That's further out, but for now, even before that happens,
having someone going into, youknow you're thinking about
graduating.
You know you already havesomeone who you trust and who
has been at games and seen youin person, who can speak to your
style of play and, moreimportantly, I think, speak to
what kind of person you are,because sometimes, in fact a lot
(15:11):
of times in my experience goinginto the draft, the difference
between being someone who getspicked in the sixth and seventh
round and someone who is nowbattling for a camp invite is
having someone that GMs andteams know and can trust, who
can advocate for the kind ofperson you're going to be in
that locker room, because atthat point, if you're looking at
a bottom six, you're going towork your way into the lineup
(15:32):
role or even just playing a rolelike a checking line role or
something they care about yourphysical skill, but the pool is
so deep that what's really goingto matter is having someone be
able to say hey, here's ananecdote about this player that,
like tells you what kind ofteammate she's going to be.
I had this conversation over thesummer about a goalie where I
was like, look, she is not goingto be the kind of goalie in the
(15:53):
room where you're going to haveto worry about them competing
with each other in an unhealthyway.
It's important for them to pusheach other and to compete with
each other, but, like this isthe.
This is a story I can tell youabout this player that will tell
you that you can trust her tobe in that room and not upset
the balance and be supportiveand work hard and and accept
whatever decision is made, likeabout starting.
(16:13):
And if you don't have someonethat you're working with, who
knows you, that way you kind ofmiss out on that extra dimension
and it's easier.
I mean, we will all do crashcourses up before the draft, but
it's so much better if it'ssomeone that you've known for
two years and I think for theplayers to have someone they can
trust, like, let's say, youinterview with a coach you know
(16:34):
before the draft and you're likeI don't, I don't think I want
to play there If you don't trust, if you don't have an agent
that you know well enough thatyou trust to say that to, it's
harder to end up in the spotthat really feels like it's a
good fit for you.
So I definitely think we'regoing to see a trend, you know,
not as quickly, towards wherewe're at with you know, middle
(16:54):
school and high school boysgetting agents, but at the
college stage you're going tosee players who are thinking
really seriously about going prowill also start thinking really
seriously about like, do I needan agent?
If I do, what kind of agency doI want to work with Like what's
important to me about thisrelationship.
I think that's going to be abig trend over like the next
(17:15):
five years.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Yeah, an example for me that comes to mind is like
Sammy Tabor and Molly BostonCollege like they're younger but
now have brand deals in placefor the next couple years during
school.
They don't have to worry aboutthat.
They have their equipment, theyhave their supplements taken
care of by perfect sports, theirequipment with warrior right
and like.
Those are the kind ofrelationships that you can
(17:38):
establish when you're youngearly.
Build a brand rapportrelationship with them.
Then over the course of four orfive years, imagine a the again
NIL money.
What else you're going to getfrom it in products?
What other deals are going tocome from it because of that
exposure that you're getting?
And then, further to that, whenyou get to that draft point, oh
(18:00):
, you don't have to stress aboutall those other factors, you're
just worrying about draft then,and even then it's that's what
your agent's there for, right.
So I mean to me, if you caneliminate additional stressors,
that's what I do for work,that's what you do for work,
that's what everyonetheoretically should be aiming
to do in their life is toeliminate stressors, right, we
perform better when we're notstressed.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I mean, I think it's huge, and one of the things
about like the P2HL being abrand new space, even looking at
this from a marketingperspective, is that you're
thinking about the way that Ithink about it is like if you
walked into a baseball arena andthere was like no branding on
any of the walls and you, as abrand, could come in and be like
I can stake my claim on this.
(18:43):
You know, I can be a major andyou're seeing this like at the
league level.
Yeah, exactly, canadian Tirewas a big one.
You're seeing this at theleague level and you're going to
start seeing that with playerstoo.
So the way that we have agoalie, sandy Abstrider, who is
a Warrior goalie she was notskating in Warrior before this
season.
We connected her with Warriorsso she could try the pads out,
she see how she felt about them.
(19:04):
She ended up actually lovingthem and switching to Warrior
For a brand like Warrior.
Even thinking about Molly Jordanand Sammy Tabor you know they
don't have a huge footprint yetin the P2HL.
The P2HL is a Bauer league.
There are players in the leaguethat are CCM athletes Jill
Dempsey is one of them butWarrior.
You know, having these existingrelationships with players that
(19:25):
are very likely to go pro.
It's it helps the players andit helps the brand because, you
know, if, if you're Sammy Taborand you have this year's long
relationship with warrior andyou've been a warrior athlete
and you go pro, it's huge to beable to leverage being like if
she went pro today she would bethe only I think the only skater
in the league with a majorwarrior deal and that is so huge
(19:48):
for warrior.
You see them leverage that withLeon in the NHL.
He is like the NHL warriorplayer Um and.
And so I think having thoserelationships and being able to
like, make connections withintention when you're younger
sets you up also.
Like make connections withintention when you're younger
sets you up also, you know, tobe able to, you know, grow your
(20:09):
brand in a more intentional way.
That's not just about like howmuch money can I make, how many
partners can I have, but who arethe partners who are really
going to be able to support mein a way that will transition
well to the pro space.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Well, and I think that's so well put and this is
why I appreciate you having youbeing on the team so much,
because having a true lawyerwith the experience that you
have, and then, like Lander, wegot a three headed monster
between the three of us, andthen we're adding Claire, lauren
(20:41):
, ryan, like that, that part isreally fun too, and I think when
you're able to build thoserelationships internally and
externally, like I'm going toread out some of the brands that
we're just working with,because I'm going to toot our
horn a little bit the thrill ofthe shill, as they say Lenny,
midday Squares, perfect Sports,element, a-cane, vivo, barefoot,
new Balance, zenkai Sports,pioneer Auto Group, ccm, warrior
(21:09):
Bauer, rawlings, iq Bars theones that Bryson DeChambeau is
crushing every time he's out onthe course during his YouTubes.
These are the kind of brandsthat we get to work with, and
I'm just riffing off a couple asI was driving hands-free, of
course, because we're safetyfirst, but the priority here is
the fact that why would you takeon additional responsibilities
as an athlete if you could havethat delegated?
(21:30):
yeah right, that's the way Ilook at.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I think also one of the things that I've talked to
players about, like, and the waythat I try to with a player who
has never, like, entered thespace before, the way that I try
to start it with them is bybeing like, what are things that
you spend money on?
Because, like, even at the P2HLlevel, even with players who
are getting picked in the secondor third round, you're really
not making a ton of money.
And so, starting with what arethe things that you are spending
(21:56):
money on today?
Um and and so, starting withwhat are the things that you are
spending money on today, howcan we help you?
At least start with gettingthat stuff for free in exchange
for using your brand to elevate,you know, this partner, you
actually end up saving a ton ofmoney.
Like, if you have a proteinpartner.
Protein powder is expensive,you know, electrolytes are
expensive, protein bars areexpensive, and these athletes,
especially in a context wherethey're finally with a league
(22:19):
where they are skating every day, they are lifting every day, as
you know, it's the norm.
It's not typical for them tohave a day off.
They're going through thesekinds of supplements and these
kinds of support, you know, likethe Firefly bands and stuff
like that.
They're going through them at arate where if they were paying
for that with their salary money, they're not able to leverage
(22:41):
that.
You know, they're not able tosave money, they're not able to
live in a nicer apartment orwhatever.
And if you start from thatplace you end up really thinking
about what are the brands thatlike mean a lot to me, that it's
important to me that, like theyknow that this is something
that has helped me.
So yeah, it's been.
I mean, I think that's been areally cool part of this.
It's that's a part of this thatI didn't necessarily come in
intending, because at the timewhen I started my agency in the
(23:03):
PHF, that was like really, Imean they were on ESPN plus but
you weren't getting the kind ofexposure you're getting today
and I think you know it wouldhave been harder to get like a
true endorsement deal in thatcontext.
So I wasn't thinking about thata ton.
But we've done NIL deals,plenty of them since we got here
(23:23):
.
Obviously, lander got thosewarrior deals done for the BC
girls we were talking about.
I have a kid at BU who has aneyeglass NIL deal because she
wears glasses and you know she'splaying in these high-profile
Battle of Comm Ave big rivalrygames every year and getting
enough visuals on her pages thatit's worth it to the brand, and
(23:45):
now she's not.
I mean, glasses are expensive,you know what I mean, and she
was their first NIL athlete too,and that's kind of a cool.
You're always breaking groundin the space the first time you
do anything.
Nine out of ten times it's likeclose to being the first time
it's been done.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, and I think of like a visual edge and Megan
Warner connection, and I justhad Paris O'Brien on the podcast
last week.
He's a visual edge athlete.
He's playing in the Olympicsfor team China, right, like.
Those are the kind ofrelationships that now we can
leverage, bring to other brandsand say, hey, like, and the best
(24:20):
part, the cherry on top of any,here's the.
Again, we're just thrill of theshow, the whole thing.
It's female athletes.
Social media pages convert at aridiculously higher rate than
males and it's like it's proof.
The data is out there.
I'm gonna put like some pinnedwalls up here around like the
(24:41):
exact metrics, but it'sdisgusting like it doesn't even
come close.
And us guys, you know we justgot to accept it yet all the
brands are still spending moneywith the men.
And it pisses me off, lenny,I'm not gonna lie, I get fired
up about it.
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
We gotta keep hammering them eh yeah, I think,
I think the the next big thingfor the pwhl, other than
expansion, is going to be a tvdeal.
When they get their big, theirtv rights like sold, I think
there's going to be a massive,massive corresponding shift.
And and how these things areapproached with players because,
like right now, it's stillobviously much easier if you're
(25:18):
on a national team.
That's kind of like you'regoing to get not just free
product but like actuallycompensated for being in a
commercial or whatever Once thisstuff is on TV.
If you're a top pair D for ateam like Montreal but you're
like not on a national team,you're just really really good
at a club level.
You know those opportunitiesaren't there yet, but when
(25:38):
they're on TV I think they willbe.
I mean, I guess we'll see.
But yeah, I think that's thenext big thing and I actually I
think that expansion and TVdeals are related.
Like I think that when theythink about expansion, they're
thinking about TV markets, forsure as part of the part of the
reason that they're pickingcertain places.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, I'm curious.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I attended the takeover tour inVancouver.
You were at Denver.
Where else were you?
Yeah, is that it?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I went to New Jersey for a game, but it wasn't a
takeover tour game.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Okay, Give me, give me the synopsis.
What did you think?
I can humbly safely brag that Iattended the highest attended
event in Vancouver, with 19,000.
Some odd people, no big deal,you know.
Big shout out to Vancouver, andthat's probably why you know
there's gonna be some hockeyplayed out here too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think the Tegelwit tour
is a great idea.
I mean I think the PWHPA wasalready doing this before they
launched the league.
They didn't have, the PWHPAdidn't have teams that were like
set geographic locations really.
So you saw the Premier LacrosseLeague do this.
The Premier Lacrosse League dida couple seasons where they
just played in different citiesand then once they knew what
(26:45):
cities were drawing, well, theyput teams in those cities.
So Denver got a PLL team aftera couple of years of them coming
to play here and us showing up.
And I think you know the PWHLhasn't maybe outright said this.
Maybe they have now, but itwasn't always the explicit
intention of the Takeover Tour.
But I think you can look at theTakeover Tour and understand
that they're sussing out marketsand, like you know, buffalo had
(27:08):
a PHF team.
They put a Takeover Tour game.
I don't think they broke 10K.
It's easy to look at that andbe like, ok, maybe we'll try
them again next year for atakeover tour, but like this is
not going to be a priority forexpansion, you go to Vancouver
almost 20,000 people.
There are plenty of NHL teamsthat don't pull that.
I mean in places that it wouldbe like obviously Ottawa like
(27:31):
it's.
It's not a secret that Ottawathe senators have struggled.
I think that if the senatorswere really good, maybe this
would be a different story.
Like, I don't think it's amarket problem.
Winnipeg's arena doesn't evenhold 19,000 people.
It only holds about 15.
The last time I checked so tobe able to pull almost 20,000
people at a game, vancouver madeimmediately made a massive case
(27:51):
for itself.
Quebec City did really well,edmonton did really well, denver
we were the highest attendedAmerican location with 14,000 or
so.
I've been to a couple of Avsgames.
I think the atmosphere at thisgame was as good, if not better,
depending on the Avs matchup.
If they're playing the Ducks,this game was massively more
exciting and just the crowd wasso into it.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Shout out to the PWHL Takeover tour for doing a good
job.
They did it well.
It was well executed.
Vancouver was phenomenal.
I took a bunch of photos.
It was awesome, I think.
Since you brought up Ottawa, Ihave to mention it.
Just wouldn't be me to notmention the fact that they're
going to be the Leafs in thefirst round.
It's going to be terriblyunfortunate.
I know you can agree with me.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You're nodding along, you don't even have to say
anything.
No, I mean, I'm wearing aBruins hat, so I think that will
happen.
It will be very, very funny.
Hopefully they grease the pollsin Ottawa.
I think Ottawa could rival thecity of Philadelphia if that's
actually what goes down,especially if it's a game seven.
But I mean, I think these areall places like.
That's the kind of fan basethat you want to put a women's
team in front of, like you.
And, and talking aboutPhiladelphia, that's another
city that, like they haven'tdone a takeover tour there yet.
(29:03):
I understand that the, thesirens, are currently playing in
New Jersey and a lot of peoplethink of those as the same
market.
They're not, and I do think itwould be really sick to to just
like just go, just go to WellsFargo and see what happens.
That's the kind of stuff thatTakeOver Tour has been doing and
is going to continue to do, andI think it's just been really
cool, because there are somecities that you would maybe
(29:24):
never think of as being a goodplace to put a team that have
really shown up, like St Louisis one.
Off the top of my head, there'sone women's D1 program in the
state of Missouri, lindenwood.
Nicole Hensley is the onlyplayer I can think of who
graduated from Lindenwood andhas played pro and like really
you know?
But St Louis shows up and likemaybe you put a team there, who
(29:47):
knows, maybe DC, maybe NashvilleLike I think everybody should
get the opportunity to try itbecause some of these 06 markets
maybe don't show up the sameway.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I am in full support of this.
I'm for Philly getting one.
You got me fired up on thatpart too.
I think that could be a funatmosphere.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's just a fun city.
They will absolutely go nutsand also it's an immediate.
One of the things that I thinkis so important about this
league and the way that they didthis is that you had ready-made
rivalries coming in, so a lotof these players had never
played together, a lot of themhad played with people who were
on other teams, but it's Torontoand Montreal, but it's Montreal
(30:25):
and Boston, but it's Torontoand Ottawa and and so
immediately you're getting theselike ready-made rivalries.
And when I think of, like, ifyou're going to do Vancouver,
seattle, that makes a ton ofsense to me, not just for travel
reasons, but because, likethey're always going to be pit
against each other for any sportand being able to draw on that,
you know, maybe you put a teamin Wisconsin, so you get the
(30:46):
border battle between Minnesotaand Wisconsin.
Philadelphia is another one ofthose places.
Pittsburgh and Philly,pittsburgh and Detroit, detroit
and Chicago, like.
I think that these things arethings that are really exciting
to me about the prospect ofexpansion and, of course, the
main thing is that it just meansmore jobs, which is huge
because there's too much talenteven for the leagues that we
(31:09):
have now, even if you thinkabout a certain percent of them
going to Europe and playing inSweden or whatever.
Unless we expand, there's goingto be so many people who don't
have somewhere to play and can'tcontinue, and it's a better
product If you can get more ofthose people playing for longer.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, I just brings up a good like that we should
plug a Knicks working in hockeywebsite and Instagram page.
That's been absolutely takenoff.
Uh has said no directcorrelation with his timing to
come on the athletes podcast,but uh, maybe or maybe not,
we'll never know.
Either way, there are jobscoming up and I think that's one
of the unique parts, not justat csm but in general.
(31:49):
Like the sport, world isexpanding and we are able to
fill more roles with people whowant to be there and are
passionate about improving thesport the fan experience as well
as the athlete experience,because those are like three
separate things that maybe we'remissing in the past.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I think that like onething that I think about with
this league, because I think thelevel of play is the highest
we've ever seen in any leagueanywhere in the world.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I think even players that played a decade in Sweden
will tell you this is better.
Like this is faster, morephysical.
There's a lot of reasons forthat, but I think the player
experience is a place wherewe've made huge progress in the
last two years from where weused to be.
But there's also still a hugegap that can be filled, and this
(32:44):
first CBA is through eightyears, so that's two Olympic
cycles.
We'll see first.
You know, the group of playersthat are going to really be in
positions of like to leveragetheir brands.
At the time that first CBA isup, you're going to see
something like the NWSL or theWNBA.
(33:04):
I mean, the NWSL just redidtheir CBA and eliminated the
college draft.
It's all free agency now.
That's what they wanted, that'swhat they got.
This was the first off seasonthat it functioned that way.
It was crazy.
It's been really cool.
I am a huge.
I love attending entry drafts.
I think there's an element ofit.
That's a lot of fun.
I'm a huge proponent foreliminating drafts too, because
I think for our league itwouldn't work right now, because
(33:27):
all the teams are individuallyor not are collectively owned by
one entity.
But when you have teams thatare individually owned.
Having no entry draft forcesevery team to make itself an
attractive place to play,because you have to sell
yourself every time you sign aplayer, and like that's what we
do we, every single time we wanta player to work with us, we
have to make a case of like thisis why you're a good fit here.
(33:49):
This is why we're a good fitfor you.
So I think that that first CBAwe're going to see a huge jump
in player experience.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
But even today, I mean they get a housing stipend.
We've never had that before.
Is it enough?
Money Depends on where you'reliving.
It's better than nothing.
You know some places it's grossand, like Vancouver, is just as
bad, so they're going to havethat issue.
(34:17):
It's something that they doneed to address.
Again, you're working closelywith these individuals.
I'd love for you to share maybeone to three maybe wishlist
items that you'd love to see inthat incorporated, just if you
were to put it out there,manifest, you know, into the
ether.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I would like to see the housing stipend scaled in
some way to cost of living.
I don't think it makes sensefor someone living in Ottawa to
get the same housing stipend assomeone living in Boston.
I think those are verydifferent places to live.
I don't think either place ischeap, but you know your housing
stipend is going to go a tonfurther.
It's also in USD, so theplayers in Canada are getting a
(34:57):
little bit of a better dealbecause it's more Canadian
dollars that they can spend.
So I think that kind ofaligning the, maybe making it
more of a percentage and less oflike a hard number I think that
would be that would help a ton.
I think one of the things theNWSL did recently was to make it
so that players can't be tradedwithout their consent.
(35:19):
So basically everybody startswith like a no trade clause and
they are asked to waive it.
I think that I don't think thePWHL is there yet, like I think
you have to have a certainamount of infrastructure before
you can sort of allow for that.
I can understand from a GMperspective, like why we don't
have it yet.
I also think for a matureleague that's not in the startup
phase, it's a, it's a huge.
(35:41):
I mean, leagues in Europe don'ttrade players, they just don't.
It's not a thing, it's only athing in North America, really.
Um, and I think that it it itrequires um teams to be a little
bit more intentional with thepeople that they're recruiting,
because you can't just tradethem, you know.
And it also requires players todevelop a different kind of
(36:01):
relationship with the teambecause they have a little bit
more leverage, so they feel alittle bit more equal, and I
just think that it improves theproduct.
I feel like we've seen that inthe NWSL and it doesn't mean no
trades.
I think I would say in the NWSLI almost feel like we've seen
at least the same amount.
So I think that's somethingthat I would love to see.
And then another thing is that,like in the PHF, they used to
(36:24):
get like a certain percentage oftheir jersey sales, just like.
I think we should do that Rightnow I can't go online and buy a
Nora Toulouse jersey if I wantto.
I think you should be able todo that, and I think that she
should get a cut of however muchthe league makes or the team
makes from selling that jersey.
I think that is something thatcould go a long way to.
(36:47):
You know, it's maybe not a tonof money right off the bat, but
any amount at this levelsupports, because it's the
difference between making$45,000 and $50,000 a year,
which is actually a pretty hugedifference.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Well, a five grand can go a long way, especially
when that's part of your moneythat you can spend on a daily
basis, right?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, like the payoff is a little bit less obvious
for you to be someone who getson Instagram and connects
directly with your followers orwhatever it is that that is
going to help sort of build yourfootprint.
I think there are some playerswho really understand and like,
are just attracted to the ideaof doing it for other reasons,
(37:31):
like not necessarily becausethey're thinking about how they
can leverage that to make money.
Like not necessarily becausethey're thinking about how they
can leverage that to make money.
But if you're, if you have thisdirect like, the more people
that buy your jersey, the moremoney you're going to make.
I think players will connect aton more with fans and the
community you know thinkingabout like, the more that I have
these one-on-one connectionswith people, the more people are
going to buy my jersey, themore money I'm going to make.
(37:52):
It's a very easy step-by-stepprocess and that grows the game
Cause you've got kids that youknow.
Just like, I went to a thrashersgame when I was like 10 and I
met Kerry Layton and after thegame and he signed my beanie
baby or whatever, and then Inever missed a thrashers game
and I grew up and here I am.
You know what I mean.
Like I think that I think thatthere's like a very clear flow
(38:13):
chart um with with stuff likejersey sales, where you can see
how it would impact multipleareas of the game you're, you're
on it, hey because I just threwthose at you, like, hey, give
me one to three, and you justgave me three spots, like that's
unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
And that jersey, that jersey, one we got to double
down on.
Um, seriously, because, youknow, insert fanatics, who has
jerseys to sell, or whoever elsewe want ccm, bauer, I don't
care whoever's going to take onthis challenge, we're putting it
out into the ether.
Someone should do it.
Because, hey, by the way, toyour point, if I'm nora and I
have the ability to now send amessage, hey, here's the link to
(38:52):
buy my jersey.
I know you've been supportingme for the past four years
traveling around and it wouldmean a lot to me if you do that.
Oh, actually, by the way,here's a discount code ap15, you
know, or orange 15, whateveryour code is and you now have
the ability to interactone-on-one with an individual,
(39:16):
sell a jersey of yours thatyou're going to get a commission
from Fanatics.
Ccm, bauer, nike, whoever buildsthe jerseys gets to then
benefit from it from a financialstandpoint and a volume sold
standpoint.
To your point, there's a flowchart there.
I just spoke it into what itshould look like.
(39:36):
Someone should take this.
You should receive a royalty.
We'll be sitting back on abeach living off that royalty,
because everyone's winning inthis case, right.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It's an easy one and the NWSL also the Players
Association for the NWSL has arelationship with Breaking tea.
So players get their own likesilly like, not even just their
player names, but like RoseLavelle, there's like a like a
Cincinnati themed Rose Lavelle tshirt or whatever that's where
she's from, that breaking tea.
I mean it doesn't even have tobe the league.
Like I think there are so manyopportunities that like because
(40:10):
we're only in year two and somuch focus has been like where
are they playing, where do theylive?
Like I think the next couple ofyears you're going to start to
be able to see a little bit morecreativity and it's going to be
so fun.
And I also think the playerslooking at this upcoming draft
year, some of the personalitiesthat you're going to see in the
league over the next couple ofyears, is going to make this
even more fun.
(40:31):
Like I think that you knowyou're watching Worlds and
you're looking at Abby Murphyand, like you know, abby Rock is
already a player that peopleknow and like she's not just
known because she's a goodplayer.
She's known for her attitude,she's known for her personality.
There's a ton of those girlscoming into the league in the
next couple of years and themore that you see stuff like
that.
(40:51):
I mean, I think the P2HL canoutpace the NHL and its ability
to market the personalities ofplayers, and we're already in a
good spot with that.
Not that it's like, I mean thebar is kind of low,
unfortunately but I think theP2HL just-.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
That's a good take, I like it.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I mean, we're already doing pregame fits in a way
that is different.
It is in a way that is more.
You know.
I think that women's sportssort of.
I think fans of women's sports,who are not a lot of fans of
women's sports, are notnecessarily global sports fans A
lot of fans of women's sportsare coming to this from a place
of, like, I want to know thenarrative, I want to know the
story, I want to know therelationships between these
(41:27):
players.
If two players hit each otheron the ice, I want to know if
they played against each otherin college.
I want to know if there's somereason why these girls might not
like each other.
You know what I mean.
I think that there are peoplethat watch the NHL that way, but
I think for a lot of us becauseso many of us didn't grow up
playing hockey like even for meI grew up an athlete there was
no infrastructure for me to playhockey.
In Atlanta, I played soccer andthen I played lacrosse and then
(41:49):
I learned how to skate at 25and started playing beer league
Like there's so many of us withthat story that you're already
thinking about marketing femaleathletes in a different way.
I don't think we need to takethe NHL playbook and I don't
think they are.
So I think over the next fiveyears you're going to see a huge
change in the way these playersare marketed, what that means
for them individually as likeowners of their own brand, and
(42:11):
also what that's able to do togrow the league itself and to
grow the sport also what that'sable to do to grow the league
itself and to grow the sport.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Yeah, thank you for clarifying.
What I was doing was showcasingthe old school model with, you
know, the brands that havepreviously been in place, but
realistically, there's nothingstopping Doug Lynch and Zenkai
Sports from doing somethingspecific with PWHL players, like
how he's hooking up Leah Johnfor the Epson tour in the golf
space with CSM, right, likethere's worlds where you can
(42:41):
overlap and take advantage,especially when, to your point,
there's no infrastructure inplace, there's no rules, and
they're dying for it.
Like players, fans, everyonewants it.
They're like, okay, how do Iget a PWHL t-shirt?
You're like, oh, there's's onewebsite and they might be sold
out.
It's like, oh, sick, whereas ifyou were doing the same thing
(43:02):
for an NHL t-shirt, you'd have46 different websites all
bidding for those.
And it's like, to your point,it's just a little bit more time
, a little bit more emphasis onwhat is there, and all it's
going to take is a couple ofcase studies with a couple of
businesses that actually buildout the infrastructure product,
and then I'm like, oh sure, likewe've been missing the boat
here.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, I think you're seeing that a little bit now too
, and honestly, I thinkexpansion is a little bit that
as well, because they will not.
Mark Walter's not going to ownall these teams in five years.
He doesn't want to.
I think no one would ever gointo this with that being the
intention.
It is something that you can doin the short term, but it makes
sense in the long term forthese to be individually owned
teams and I think you're seeingthis.
(43:43):
A ton with Quebec city is areally great example.
They've been very vocal aboutlike we want a team and there
are people here who will buy ateam and support a team
financially.
I think that you know you'veseen NWSL expansions go for
millions of dollars over thelast couple years.
I don't know if we're at thatlevel yet, but people want teams
, cities want teams, big namesin cities want teams.
(44:06):
I mean, maybe maybe you knowthe senators owners want to buy
a team.
Maybe you know one of thereasons you're going to
Vancouver is because there issomeone in Vancouver whether
it's the Canucks owners orsomebody else in Vancouver who
wants in on this, and after thefirst five or six people say I
(44:27):
want in and I'm in and here'swhat it's done for me.
It just kind of snowballs fromthere snowballs from there.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Let's end this conversation with some
predictions Bold, not so.
We already covered kind of whatwe'd love to see.
As far as adjustments in theCBA To your point, maybe we're
not at the millions valuationsyet, but, like hypothetically
speaking, where do you see it?
What would be that number ifyou were to throw a dart out
there?
And are there any otherpredictions that you'd put out
there as far as reach, scaleplayers, athletes, where there's
(45:06):
kind of specific, maybeopportunities that you would see
?
Again, you're the expert in thespace.
I just get to be the one thatasks the questions and sits back
and listens to your wisdom.
So the floor is yours, Eleni.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I need to look up the Seattle Reign.
Okay, so the Seattle Reign,which is the NWSL team in
Seattle, was acquired for $58million in 2024.
In 2024.
I have to think that a P2HLteam I mean it's got to be in
(45:43):
the $20 million range.
If you're thinking aboutlong-term growth, it depends on
the market.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That's conservative too.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
It is, no, it is conservative, and I'm doing that
because we don't know exactlyhow much money you can make.
Yet it's a little easier withan NWSL team.
That league's been around for12 years.
Maybe, if you're looking at ateam in a place like Vancouver
where you pulled 19,000 people,I mean, 20,000 is like an
absolute floor.
Sorry, 20 million is anabsolute floor to me, me, I,
(46:17):
yeah.
I don't know, we'll see whathappens.
I think for the first couple ofteams, maybe you sell low just
so that you can have individualowners and that's fine, but I
think that you, I mean, I thinkthese teams are worth a lot of
money.
I think the concept of the teamis worth so much money.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, I'm bullish on this for sure.
Obviously, that's why we're inthe space.
But like I personally am likeyo, I, yo, I feel like I could
put together enough people tofind 20 million.
So, you know, if the Aquilini's, I actually would love to allow
myself the opportunity to runan organization properly in
Vancouver, because there hasn'tnecessarily been an organization
(46:52):
that's run properly inVancouver.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I would trust you.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Thank you.
Thank you, I figured you might,but here's the thing you have
enough people and you actuallycan be really strategic with
this and have athlete ownership.
And when I say that, like, haveplayers own a percentage of the
team, right, and that's whenyou can go really deep and
(47:17):
really incentivize athletes toshowcase the benefits of being a
part of an organization, whatthat can bring to the table,
what it's like after your careerto still be associated with an
organization, like those are thekind of ideas that I think you
know we've.
There's no reason why we can'tbe putting that out there and
(47:37):
making those things happen,right.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I mean the premier lacrosse league does that the
players have equity in the team.
I mean, I think that that ishuge and I always, like I was at
a baseball game the other dayand my fiance said something
disparaging about the green BayPackers which, like, I don't
care about the green Bay Packersas a football fan, but I was
like no, like I will nottolerate Green Bay Packers
slander because it is the onlycollectively owned professional
(48:01):
sports team in North America andwe need more of that.
I mean, I think that it's.
I think that that's a space inwhich, like, even if you're
selling these teams toindividual owners as a majority
share, I think the playersshould get equity.
I think they should want equity.
I would love to have equity.
Like, I think that this is aspace where this is the time to
get in.
(48:21):
Like, if you wait five years toget in on this, you are going
to kick yourself.
You're going to be buying whenit's high.
You buy when it's low.
Looking up, which is now, Imean the Olympics are next year,
that's going to be huge.
The amount of eyes on teamsbefore and after the Olympics is
going to be massive because alot of Olympians are going to be
playing in this league Not allof them, but a lot of them.
(48:43):
So if I could do it right now,I would do it right now, no
question.
I mean, I am doing it in thisway.
I kind of I didn't necessarilyget into this space to make
money.
I think that's a secondarything for me, but it also like
it is so special to beassociated with an area of
sports that is breaking newground and growing at this pace,
(49:04):
and I think we should all be inon it.
That's what I think.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
I love it.
Like I said, this is the stuffthat they write textbooks about,
and hopefully we can be a partof that on the right side of
history.
Um, I appreciate everythingthat you're doing for csm.
It's amazing.
Um, our hockey division hascontinued to skyrocket thanks to
you.
Yo final question how the heckdo you end up in lander's hockey
pool and when I say hockey pool, I mean fantasy hockey, and I
(49:32):
hear you kind of kick his butttoo at times do I?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
I, I haven't checked.
Little birdie told me the answerto me kicking his butt is just
that Austin Matthews is who Ibuilt my team around and I
inherited that.
So what happened was that therewas someone that he was friends
with who was in this pool andwas like I don't want to do this
anymore, it's a legacy league.
He texted me.
He was like do you want in onthis?
And I was like sure, that'syeah, All right.
Like well, I made him show mewho was on the roster first
(49:56):
Cause I was like am I inheritinggarbage?
Because if that's the case,then no, and it was like a
basically pretty good team,except for the goalies, and I
was like okay, I can probablyfix that in a year or two.
Like that's one position ofneed.
Austin Matthews is going tokeeping Austin Matthews for the
foreseeable future.
For the foreseeable future, youknow, it was like a decently
(50:17):
built enough team.
I got a shout out Lander'sfiance, Lindsay.
We executed a great trade thisseason.
I think worked out really wellfor both of us.
It was a pleasure doingbusiness with her.
Anytime that I can humble I'mthe only woman in this pool, so
anytime I can humble any man inthis space, I think that I am
sort of that is something that Iam required to do when I have
the opportunity to do it.
(50:37):
So unfortunately he's going tobe useless to me after the first
round when the Leafs getbounced, but for the time being,
I'm really appreciating AustinMatthews' ability to put up
points and rocket me up thestandings.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
That's pretty much it , we love it.
We love that answer.
Thank you so much.
The way we wrap up everyepisode.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Eleni, as you know, we ask our guests their biggest
piece of advice for the next gen.
You've got it from a coupledifferent angles.
25-year-old picking up theskates, allowing athletes about
the most is creating your ownluck.
Like you can't wait forsomething lucky to happen to you
.
Luck is really more about beingin the right position when
stuff happens.
So you got to kind of createyour own luck by working hard,
being a good person you know,doing favors for people, being
(51:32):
there when people need you,thinking about your next step as
a long-term thing and not justkind of shooting from the hip,
being intentional about theconversations you have, the
relationships you build, all ofthat stuff you build your own
luck.
Stuff starts to go your way.
Yeah, I think you can beresponsible for wherever you go
(51:53):
next.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
That's it.
That's the pod folks.
Folks, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Hope you have a great rest of your day all right,
everybody that's gonna do it forus today here at the athletes
podcast.
We hope you enjoyed.
That was eleni domestic has.
She is again the best.
I've got nothing but amazingthings to say about her.
I'm really excited to see wherecookstark management goes with
her in it.
As always, this is free.
We do need you to fulfill theathletes agreement, which is to
like, subscribe, follow, dowhatever you can to support the
(52:21):
podcast.
It means a ton to us.
Let's just keep interviewingawesome people like Eleni.
Let's just keep moving forward.
So, yeah, hope you guys allhave a great week coming up and
we'll see you in the next one.
you know Jillian Dempsey, one of the players that
I work with.
She was, you know, a captain ofthe Boston team in the PHF.
Like does she?
Is she a draft eligible, and ifso, what does that look like?
Like, are you able to express apreference for a certain
location?
She ended up going to Montreal,which was like really, really
wild.
Like, if you're listening tothis and you're a men's hockey
fan, it was literally like ifPatrice Bergeron got relocated
(00:20):
to Montreal and played for theHabs for the season.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Like, what's going on everybody.
Welcome back to another episodeof the athletes podcast.
We hope you had a fantasticweek.
Hope all you guys have enjoyedsome awesome playoff hockey.
I know I have.
That LA Edmonton series is justridiculous.
If you're on the east coast,you're not staying up for it
would highly recommend that youdo so one night while you can.
(00:43):
That stuff is amazing.
While we're on the topic ofhockey, how about we talk about
those pwhl expansion teams?
We got vancouver, we gotseattle.
It's gonna rock that vancouvergame.
The takeover series waselectric from what I saw.
I know dave was there.
He had just amazing things tosay about it.
That place is gonna be packed.
It's gonna be awesome.
(01:04):
Same Same with Seattle.
That place brings the energy.
See it with a Kraken.
It's going to be electric.
On the topic of these PWHLteams, our guest today is Eleni
Damesdehas.
She's Director of HockeyOperations for Quick Start.
Management has a great catalogof players under her belt.
She's got PWHL players, ncaaplayers, sweet players in Sweden
(01:24):
, players in youth sports.
Nothing but amazing things tosay about her.
She's fantastic.
You're going to love her.
In this episode she brings aton of insight into the world of
women's sports.
You're going to love it.
So, without further ado, let'sget right into it.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
You're the most decorated racquetball player in
US history, world's strongestman From childhood passion to
professional athlete, eight-timeIronman champion.
So what was it like making yourdebut in the NHL?
What is your biggest piece ofadvice for the next generation
of athletes, from underdogs tonational champions?
This is the Athletes Podcast,where high-performance
(01:57):
individuals share their triumphs, defeats and life lessons to
educate, entertain and inspirethe next generation of athletes.
Here we go Eleni Damesdias Isaid it wrong that time.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
See, we practiced it.
You did it right.
You just like over-pronouncedit, but it's technically correct
.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Okay, that's a perfect way to start it off,
because I always am trying toimprove and that's just how we
operate at Cookstark Management.
We were talking there aboutRyan, the fact that he's been an
amazing addition to the teamover the past year, almost that
he's been working with us.
You elevating CookstarkManagement hockey to what is
(02:37):
crazy.
I don't know You've got more tosay than I do on this topic
because you're the expert in it.
Eleni, welcome to the AthletesPodcast.
A little CSM AP crossover today.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
I would love for you tointroduce yourself personally,
how you've come from HecateSports, coming across to
Cookstark Management, joiningthe fun team over here and we're
(03:00):
making an impact.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
Uh, big fan of the podcast, soit's cool to be like on it.
Um, I so I actually went to lawschool.
Like I came straight throughfrom undergrad, didn't really
wasn't planning on using mydegree, my undergrad degree,
like I knew I wanted to get apost-grad degree.
I thought about doing sportsmanagement.
(03:22):
I took the LSAT grad degree.
I thought about doing sportsmanagement.
I took the LSAT, did prettywell on it.
I liked the idea of likereading and writing as a job.
Ended up in law school thesummer before I graduated from
undergrad, which was the year,like the summer, that I was
studying for the LSAT.
I was an intern for an NWSLteam on the ops side and I was
studying for the LSAT and one ofthe players on the team I mean,
(03:43):
they knew my name and I waslike waiting for them to be done
because I was going to do theirlaundry.
So I was just like sittingoutside the locker room waiting
for them to finish so I couldget their stuff.
And she walked out and she waslike I'm really glad you're
going to law school because thesport needs people like you and
I was like, well, maybe I shouldgo into sports then.
School like everybody wants tobe an agent, everyone wants to
be in sports, in law school likesolidly 35% of especially the
(04:11):
guys that you meet in law schoolare like, yeah, I want to be a
GM.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Whatever, you're talking about Brock sport
management grad, where everyoneand their mom wanted to be
sports agents.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So yeah, yeah, it's pretty common and it's kind of a
difficult space to get into.
I think you know when you, ifyou're coming at it from the
angle of being in law school,the way that it's taught to you
is basically like you have to goto a big law firm that does
sports stuff and just like, doyour time and and get in with
the right partners and then youcan kind of do sports law stuff
and I knew I wasn't going to dothat.
I.
I didn't really go to lawschool to practice law like it
(04:38):
was more I wanted whatever I didafter law school, I wanted to
have the education of a lawyer,I wanted to have the JD, I
wanted to know the ins and outsof contracts.
I spent a lot of time focusingon licensing, so copyright and
trademark stuff.
That was a big part of what Idid in law school.
I worked for a major leaguesoccer team, did a bunch of
brand deals for them, and then Iwent and worked for Dunkin'
(05:00):
Donuts and did a bunch of branddeals for sports teams from the
brand side.
Like we did a Chargersagreement.
We did the Orlando MLS and NWSLteams while I was at Dunkin'
and I graduated at a time whenyou basically just had to take
whatever job you had, because itwas like, right as COVID
happened, I graduated in May2020.
So I took the first job that Icould get, which was like at a
(05:22):
law firm.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Fun times for the grads of those years as one of
them in 2019, and with manyfriends in the sports space who
were impacted.
Yeah, it was a tough time.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
I basically just took whatever job I could get and I
had just moved here and I hadbeen around the women's hockey
space because I got involvedwith the Ice Garden, which is a
women's hockey blog while I wasin law school.
Just like, so that I wouldn'tlose my mind, I was just I was a
content creator for them.
So I went to a bunch of games.
I was at a lot of college CWHL,nwhl games and I had some
(05:57):
friends that were media membersand players started to ask them
to ask me questions because theyknew who I was and they knew
that I had been to law schooland at the time most players did
not have agents and the playersthat did have an agent were
mostly working with Lander.
So I knew him, I knew of him.
Players started to ask mequestions.
I started to joke around withmy friends that I should start
(06:19):
an agency and they were all kindof like just do it, it's not.
It's like actually not funny,you should just do it.
So I did Um, but before that um, the way that I got really
connected with Lander was thathe ended up in a situation with
a player, um, back in the PHFdays.
Um and he had questions about,like, whether or not what had
happened was against, uh, us law, cause he's he, you know, has a
(06:45):
great background in Canadianlaw.
But this happened in the US andhe knew who I was and he knew
how to reach me and he called meand I helped him out with that
situation.
So I had a good relationshipwith him from the beginning.
I think I always admired, likeobviously, the space that he was
in was something that I wasalso excited about and and from
that conversation alone, like Iknew how much he cared Because,
like he was really like he didnot have to work as hard as he
(07:07):
worked to make that situationbetter.
He could have looked at theplayroom and like I'm sorry,
like there's nothing I can doabout this, and he was like
going to find a way to make itas good as he could make it.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I think that's what stands out about Lander, that's
what stands out about you, thepeople we've been bringing on.
Like work ethic is kind of theminimum standard that we set and
you need those kind of people,especially in this space.
Various reasons, and it wasreally clear to me immediately
that he really cared a lot aboutthe girls, that he was working
with and what their experiencewas like and how they were
(07:50):
feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So I started my agency and I actually kind of
came at it from the angle oflike you know, everybody should
be able to have an agent.
Like like at the time there wasthis thought process for a lot
of people that, like only thetop players in the world or
whatever, only like the topnational team players needed
agents.
And I kind of came at it froman angle of like that doesn't
(08:15):
need to be true.
Like there can be affordableoptions for bottom six players
and backup goalies, and likeeverybody should have the
ability to have, you know, anagent to work with to help them
feel empowered and to help themtake care of the stuff off the
ice that distracts from theirability to focus on the game.
So that was kind of my missionstatement when I started.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Kind of like how everyone is an athlete if they
have the ability to move theirbody and express motion, like we
deserve those things as humanrights, and that was what stood
out why.
You know, when lander and Iconnected a couple years ago, I
saw what he was doing in hockeyand it was like these are people
that deserve the same treatmentthat us men have been getting
(09:00):
for decades.
Yeah, and you, the sports spacewas just, you know, decades
behind, frankly.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, it's the same.
I mean, I definitely came at itfrom, like, look like your
fourth line NHL players haveagents like those guys that are
just busting their butts to tryto make a million dollars a year
to get a one year contract inthe NHL.
They're not doing that bythemselves, they have someone,
and I wanted that to be whatthis space looks like too.
And it turns out like if you'regood at that and you make
(09:31):
players feel heard and you makethem feel prioritized, you pick
up all different kinds ofplayers, and I ended up having a
huge range of players, fromthat type of player that I first
intended to represent all theway up to you know, I ended up
with a 13th overall pick lastseason and it just kind of
snowballed from there.
But, um, I had my deal.
I mean, that's all her that was.
(09:53):
I was there, but like she's theone who played the hockey that
got her to that spot.
But I, uh, I had my agency fortwo months before the merger
happened and all of thecontracts that I had negotiated
for the coming PHF year werevoided.
So I had to start from scratchand I you know Lander and I were
obviously in the same spot inthat respect and I kind of kept
(10:17):
connected with him.
But, like, at that point, wewere all so frantically trying
to figure out what was happeningthat, like you, were never
going to enter into a spacewhere you were like, let's talk
about what, like a merger of ourbusinesses might look like,
like you know.
So we went through the firstdraft.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I remember sitting at that draft.
I've got this puck here that Iwas fortunate enough to be a
part of in Toronto and theamount of unknown when people
were sitting was crazy.
I, again in full transparency,like, was going being a part of
this, was just trying to soak itall up.
There was so much unknown Teams, locations like it.
(10:56):
Can you maybe shed some lighton that too, because you had the
ins?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, I mean I think that we knew even before the
merger happened.
We had an idea of what like theshortlist for locations was,
because the story that summerwas basically like the PWHPA was
ready to launch a league andthey were going to do it
regardless of what was happeningwith the PHF.
So like I had a kid who wasgraduating from Harvard and was
having was getting interest fromboth the PHF and the PWHPA and
(11:22):
they had this like um info call.
The P2HPA folks had this infocall where they were like
there's going to be a league.
We can't like we don't knowwhen the draft is going to be
yet, but sometime this fall, youknow, and we knew that, like we
, like most of the teams that wehave today I knew were on the
shortlist, ottawa was the wildcard Cause at the time they were
talking about either London,ontario or DC, which, like I
(11:47):
think ultimately I think theyreally wanted to have a balance
of Canadian and US markets,which makes a ton of sense, and
I'm glad they went with Ottawa.
I think it works, but it wasdefinitely like we didn't know
until the last second that thatwas going to be a place.
The eligibility rules forentering the draft were not
totally clear because it was nota college draft and it still
today is not a college draft, itis an entry draft.
(12:08):
So it's kind of a differentthing.
And it was like okay, like ifyou know Jillian Dempsey, one of
the players that I work with,she was, you know, a captain of
the Boston team in the PHF Like,is she draft eligible and if so
, what does that look like?
Like are you able to express apreference for a certain
location?
She ended up going to Montreal,which was like really, really
wild.
Like if you're listening tothis and you're a men's hockey
(12:32):
fan, it was literally like ifPatrice Bergeron got relocated
to Montreal and played for theHabs versus season.
Like that is the level of likeidentity meshing that she has
with the city of Boston.
And then we didn't know, likewhat the contract negotiation
process was going to be like formost of the gms that were
starting like didn't necessarilyknow each other super well,
some of them did.
The coaches got hired like aweek before the draft maybe.
(12:55):
Like it was very, very chaotic,um, but it was fun.
I mean I would say it was typethree fun.
It wasn't fun while it washappening, but looking back on
it, it's really fun to thinkabout.
Like being a part of that, Ihad three players get drafted in
that first draft.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Literally stuff that they write in textbooks right
and like this will probably bestudied and referenced, and you
know there's a lot to be saidfor being able to speak to that.
Going through it and now,having seen that over time
couple different leagues, youknow pros and cons that come
with it.
I think it also probablyhighlights the importance to
(13:32):
your point there around entrydraft that athletes start
looking at this at an earlierage.
Yeah, I mean as a 15 year old.
If you're not signed to anagency, you're probably not
playing in the WHL or going youknow like, and that's not
necessarily where it is now, butit's probably heading that
direction, right graduatingcollege senior, you were kind of
(14:08):
in a place where it it didn't.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
You didn't need to be thinking about having an agent
yet.
But I think now, two years in,it's you don't want to be in a
position where you areexperiencing the draft
preparation process with someonethat you don't know.
So it's, it can be reallytempting to wait until you're a
senior and like I think it canwork out and like we are always
happy to sign players at that atthat time.
(14:29):
But I think that as time goeson you're gonna probably see
more and more at leastsophomores, juniors, start to
think about starting thatrelationship and some of it is
like obviously the NILopportunities are going to grow
as as the PHL grows, because thePWHL is going to be on TV
eventually and that sort ofstuff trickles down just like it
does for men's hockey players.
(14:50):
That's further out, but for now, even before that happens,
having someone going into, youknow you're thinking about
graduating.
You know you already havesomeone who you trust and who
has been at games and seen youin person, who can speak to your
style of play and, moreimportantly, I think, speak to
what kind of person you are,because sometimes, in fact a lot
(15:11):
of times in my experience goinginto the draft, the difference
between being someone who getspicked in the sixth and seventh
round and someone who is nowbattling for a camp invite is
having someone that GMs andteams know and can trust, who
can advocate for the kind ofperson you're going to be in
that locker room, because atthat point, if you're looking at
a bottom six, you're going towork your way into the lineup
(15:32):
role or even just playing a rolelike a checking line role or
something they care about yourphysical skill, but the pool is
so deep that what's really goingto matter is having someone be
able to say hey, here's ananecdote about this player that,
like tells you what kind ofteammate she's going to be.
I had this conversation over thesummer about a goalie where I
was like, look, she is not goingto be the kind of goalie in the
(15:53):
room where you're going to haveto worry about them competing
with each other in an unhealthyway.
It's important for them to pusheach other and to compete with
each other, but, like this isthe.
This is a story I can tell youabout this player that will tell
you that you can trust her tobe in that room and not upset
the balance and be supportiveand work hard and and accept
whatever decision is made, likeabout starting.
(16:13):
And if you don't have someonethat you're working with, who
knows you, that way you kind ofmiss out on that extra dimension
and it's easier.
I mean, we will all do crashcourses up before the draft, but
it's so much better if it'ssomeone that you've known for
two years and I think for theplayers to have someone they can
trust, like, let's say, youinterview with a coach you know
(16:34):
before the draft and you're likeI don't, I don't think I want
to play there If you don't trust, if you don't have an agent
that you know well enough thatyou trust to say that to, it's
harder to end up in the spotthat really feels like it's a
good fit for you.
So I definitely think we'regoing to see a trend, you know,
not as quickly, towards wherewe're at with you know, middle
(16:54):
school and high school boysgetting agents, but at the
college stage you're going tosee players who are thinking
really seriously about going prowill also start thinking really
seriously about like, do I needan agent?
If I do, what kind of agency doI want to work with Like what's
important to me about thisrelationship.
I think that's going to be abig trend over like the next
(17:15):
five years.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Yeah, an example for me that comes to mind is like
Sammy Tabor and Molly BostonCollege like they're younger but
now have brand deals in placefor the next couple years during
school.
They don't have to worry aboutthat.
They have their equipment, theyhave their supplements taken
care of by perfect sports, theirequipment with warrior right
and like.
Those are the kind ofrelationships that you can
(17:38):
establish when you're youngearly.
Build a brand rapportrelationship with them.
Then over the course of four orfive years, imagine a the again
NIL money.
What else you're going to getfrom it in products?
What other deals are going tocome from it because of that
exposure that you're getting?
And then, further to that, whenyou get to that draft point, oh
(18:00):
, you don't have to stress aboutall those other factors, you're
just worrying about draft then,and even then it's that's what
your agent's there for, right.
So I mean to me, if you caneliminate additional stressors,
that's what I do for work,that's what you do for work,
that's what everyonetheoretically should be aiming
to do in their life is toeliminate stressors, right, we
perform better when we're notstressed.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
I mean, I think it's huge, and one of the things
about like the P2HL being abrand new space, even looking at
this from a marketingperspective, is that you're
thinking about the way that Ithink about it is like if you
walked into a baseball arena andthere was like no branding on
any of the walls and you, as abrand, could come in and be like
I can stake my claim on this.
(18:43):
You know, I can be a major andyou're seeing this like at the
league level.
Yeah, exactly, canadian Tirewas a big one.
You're seeing this at theleague level and you're going to
start seeing that with playerstoo.
So the way that we have agoalie, sandy Abstrider, who is
a Warrior goalie she was notskating in Warrior before this
season.
We connected her with Warriorsso she could try the pads out,
she see how she felt about them.
(19:04):
She ended up actually lovingthem and switching to Warrior
For a brand like Warrior.
Even thinking about Molly Jordanand Sammy Tabor you know they
don't have a huge footprint yetin the P2HL.
The P2HL is a Bauer league.
There are players in the leaguethat are CCM athletes Jill
Dempsey is one of them butWarrior.
You know, having these existingrelationships with players that
(19:25):
are very likely to go pro.
It's it helps the players andit helps the brand because, you
know, if, if you're Sammy Taborand you have this year's long
relationship with warrior andyou've been a warrior athlete
and you go pro, it's huge to beable to leverage being like if
she went pro today she would bethe only I think the only skater
in the league with a majorwarrior deal and that is so huge
(19:48):
for warrior.
You see them leverage that withLeon in the NHL.
He is like the NHL warriorplayer Um and.
And so I think having thoserelationships and being able to
like, make connections withintention when you're younger
sets you up also.
Like make connections withintention when you're younger
sets you up also, you know, tobe able to, you know, grow your
(20:09):
brand in a more intentional way.
That's not just about like howmuch money can I make, how many
partners can I have, but who arethe partners who are really
going to be able to support mein a way that will transition
well to the pro space.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Well, and I think that's so well put and this is
why I appreciate you having youbeing on the team so much,
because having a true lawyerwith the experience that you
have, and then, like Lander, wegot a three headed monster
between the three of us, andthen we're adding Claire, lauren
(20:41):
, ryan, like that, that part isreally fun too, and I think when
you're able to build thoserelationships internally and
externally, like I'm going toread out some of the brands that
we're just working with,because I'm going to toot our
horn a little bit the thrill ofthe shill, as they say Lenny,
midday Squares, perfect Sports,element, a-cane, vivo, barefoot,
new Balance, zenkai Sports,pioneer Auto Group, ccm, warrior
(21:09):
Bauer, rawlings, iq Bars theones that Bryson DeChambeau is
crushing every time he's out onthe course during his YouTubes.
These are the kind of brandsthat we get to work with, and
I'm just riffing off a couple asI was driving hands-free, of
course, because we're safetyfirst, but the priority here is
the fact that why would you takeon additional responsibilities
as an athlete if you could havethat delegated?
(21:30):
yeah right, that's the way Ilook at.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I think also one of the things that I've talked to
players about, like, and the waythat I try to with a player who
has never, like, entered thespace before, the way that I try
to start it with them is bybeing like, what are things that
you spend money on?
Because, like, even at the P2HLlevel, even with players who
are getting picked in the secondor third round, you're really
not making a ton of money.
And so, starting with what arethe things that you are spending
(21:56):
money on today?
Um and and so, starting withwhat are the things that you are
spending money on today, howcan we help you?
At least start with gettingthat stuff for free in exchange
for using your brand to elevate,you know, this partner, you
actually end up saving a ton ofmoney.
Like, if you have a proteinpartner.
Protein powder is expensive,you know, electrolytes are
expensive, protein bars areexpensive, and these athletes,
especially in a context wherethey're finally with a league
(22:19):
where they are skating every day, they are lifting every day, as
you know, it's the norm.
It's not typical for them tohave a day off.
They're going through thesekinds of supplements and these
kinds of support, you know, likethe Firefly bands and stuff
like that.
They're going through them at arate where if they were paying
for that with their salary money, they're not able to leverage
(22:41):
that.
You know, they're not able tosave money, they're not able to
live in a nicer apartment orwhatever.
And if you start from thatplace you end up really thinking
about what are the brands thatlike mean a lot to me, that it's
important to me that, like theyknow that this is something
that has helped me.
So yeah, it's been.
I mean, I think that's been areally cool part of this.
It's that's a part of this thatI didn't necessarily come in
intending, because at the timewhen I started my agency in the
(23:03):
PHF, that was like really, Imean they were on ESPN plus but
you weren't getting the kind ofexposure you're getting today
and I think you know it wouldhave been harder to get like a
true endorsement deal in thatcontext.
So I wasn't thinking about thata ton.
But we've done NIL deals,plenty of them since we got here
(23:23):
.
Obviously, lander got thosewarrior deals done for the BC
girls we were talking about.
I have a kid at BU who has aneyeglass NIL deal because she
wears glasses and you know she'splaying in these high-profile
Battle of Comm Ave big rivalrygames every year and getting
enough visuals on her pages thatit's worth it to the brand, and
(23:45):
now she's not.
I mean, glasses are expensive,you know what I mean, and she
was their first NIL athlete too,and that's kind of a cool.
You're always breaking groundin the space the first time you
do anything.
Nine out of ten times it's likeclose to being the first time
it's been done.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, and I think of like a visual edge and Megan
Warner connection, and I justhad Paris O'Brien on the podcast
last week.
He's a visual edge athlete.
He's playing in the Olympicsfor team China, right, like.
Those are the kind ofrelationships that now we can
leverage, bring to other brandsand say, hey, like, and the best
(24:20):
part, the cherry on top of any,here's the.
Again, we're just thrill of theshow, the whole thing.
It's female athletes.
Social media pages convert at aridiculously higher rate than
males and it's like it's proof.
The data is out there.
I'm gonna put like some pinnedwalls up here around like the
(24:41):
exact metrics, but it'sdisgusting like it doesn't even
come close.
And us guys, you know we justgot to accept it yet all the
brands are still spending moneywith the men.
And it pisses me off, lenny,I'm not gonna lie, I get fired
up about it.
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
We gotta keep hammering them eh yeah, I think,
I think the the next big thingfor the pwhl, other than
expansion, is going to be a tvdeal.
When they get their big, theirtv rights like sold, I think
there's going to be a massive,massive corresponding shift.
And and how these things areapproached with players because,
like right now, it's stillobviously much easier if you're
(25:18):
on a national team.
That's kind of like you'regoing to get not just free
product but like actuallycompensated for being in a
commercial or whatever Once thisstuff is on TV.
If you're a top pair D for ateam like Montreal but you're
like not on a national team,you're just really really good
at a club level.
You know those opportunitiesaren't there yet, but when
(25:38):
they're on TV I think they willbe.
I mean, I guess we'll see.
But yeah, I think that's thenext big thing and I actually I
think that expansion and TVdeals are related.
Like I think that when theythink about expansion, they're
thinking about TV markets, forsure as part of the part of the
reason that they're pickingcertain places.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, I'm curious.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I attended the takeover tour inVancouver.
You were at Denver.
Where else were you?
Yeah, is that it?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I went to New Jersey for a game, but it wasn't a
takeover tour game.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Okay, Give me, give me the synopsis.
What did you think?
I can humbly safely brag that Iattended the highest attended
event in Vancouver, with 19,000.
Some odd people, no big deal,you know.
Big shout out to Vancouver, andthat's probably why you know
there's gonna be some hockeyplayed out here too, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think the Tegelwit tour
is a great idea.
I mean I think the PWHPA wasalready doing this before they
launched the league.
They didn't have, the PWHPAdidn't have teams that were like
set geographic locations really.
So you saw the Premier LacrosseLeague do this.
The Premier Lacrosse League dida couple seasons where they
just played in different citiesand then once they knew what
(26:45):
cities were drawing, well, theyput teams in those cities.
So Denver got a PLL team aftera couple of years of them coming
to play here and us showing up.
And I think you know the PWHLhasn't maybe outright said this.
Maybe they have now, but itwasn't always the explicit
intention of the Takeover Tour.
But I think you can look at theTakeover Tour and understand
that they're sussing out marketsand, like you know, buffalo had
(27:08):
a PHF team.
They put a Takeover Tour game.
I don't think they broke 10K.
It's easy to look at that andbe like, ok, maybe we'll try
them again next year for atakeover tour, but like this is
not going to be a priority forexpansion, you go to Vancouver
almost 20,000 people.
There are plenty of NHL teamsthat don't pull that.
I mean in places that it wouldbe like obviously Ottawa like
(27:31):
it's.
It's not a secret that Ottawathe senators have struggled.
I think that if the senatorswere really good, maybe this
would be a different story.
Like, I don't think it's amarket problem.
Winnipeg's arena doesn't evenhold 19,000 people.
It only holds about 15.
The last time I checked so tobe able to pull almost 20,000
people at a game, vancouver madeimmediately made a massive case
(27:51):
for itself.
Quebec City did really well,edmonton did really well, denver
we were the highest attendedAmerican location with 14,000 or
so.
I've been to a couple of Avsgames.
I think the atmosphere at thisgame was as good, if not better,
depending on the Avs matchup.
If they're playing the Ducks,this game was massively more
exciting and just the crowd wasso into it.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Shout out to the PWHL Takeover tour for doing a good
job.
They did it well.
It was well executed.
Vancouver was phenomenal.
I took a bunch of photos.
It was awesome, I think.
Since you brought up Ottawa, Ihave to mention it.
Just wouldn't be me to notmention the fact that they're
going to be the Leafs in thefirst round.
It's going to be terriblyunfortunate.
I know you can agree with me.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
You're nodding along, you don't even have to say
anything.
No, I mean, I'm wearing aBruins hat, so I think that will
happen.
It will be very, very funny.
Hopefully they grease the pollsin Ottawa.
I think Ottawa could rival thecity of Philadelphia if that's
actually what goes down,especially if it's a game seven.
But I mean, I think these areall places like.
That's the kind of fan basethat you want to put a women's
team in front of, like you.
And, and talking aboutPhiladelphia, that's another
city that, like they haven'tdone a takeover tour there yet.
(29:03):
I understand that the, thesirens, are currently playing in
New Jersey and a lot of peoplethink of those as the same
market.
They're not, and I do think itwould be really sick to to just
like just go, just go to WellsFargo and see what happens.
That's the kind of stuff thatTakeOver Tour has been doing and
is going to continue to do, andI think it's just been really
cool, because there are somecities that you would maybe
(29:24):
never think of as being a goodplace to put a team that have
really shown up, like St Louisis one.
Off the top of my head, there'sone women's D1 program in the
state of Missouri, lindenwood.
Nicole Hensley is the onlyplayer I can think of who
graduated from Lindenwood andhas played pro and like really
you know?
But St Louis shows up and likemaybe you put a team there, who
(29:47):
knows, maybe DC, maybe NashvilleLike I think everybody should
get the opportunity to try itbecause some of these 06 markets
maybe don't show up the sameway.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I am in full support of this.
I'm for Philly getting one.
You got me fired up on thatpart too.
I think that could be a funatmosphere.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's just a fun city.
They will absolutely go nutsand also it's an immediate.
One of the things that I thinkis so important about this
league and the way that they didthis is that you had ready-made
rivalries coming in, so a lotof these players had never
played together, a lot of themhad played with people who were
on other teams, but it's Torontoand Montreal, but it's Montreal
(30:25):
and Boston, but it's Torontoand Ottawa and and so
immediately you're getting theselike ready-made rivalries.
And when I think of, like, ifyou're going to do Vancouver,
seattle, that makes a ton ofsense to me, not just for travel
reasons, but because, likethey're always going to be pit
against each other for any sportand being able to draw on that,
you know, maybe you put a teamin Wisconsin, so you get the
(30:46):
border battle between Minnesotaand Wisconsin.
Philadelphia is another one ofthose places.
Pittsburgh and Philly,pittsburgh and Detroit, detroit
and Chicago, like.
I think that these things arethings that are really exciting
to me about the prospect ofexpansion and, of course, the
main thing is that it just meansmore jobs, which is huge
because there's too much talenteven for the leagues that we
(31:09):
have now, even if you thinkabout a certain percent of them
going to Europe and playing inSweden or whatever.
Unless we expand, there's goingto be so many people who don't
have somewhere to play and can'tcontinue, and it's a better
product If you can get more ofthose people playing for longer.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, I just brings up a good like that we should
plug a Knicks working in hockeywebsite and Instagram page.
That's been absolutely takenoff.
Uh has said no directcorrelation with his timing to
come on the athletes podcast,but uh, maybe or maybe not,
we'll never know.
Either way, there are jobscoming up and I think that's one
of the unique parts, not justat csm but in general.
(31:49):
Like the sport, world isexpanding and we are able to
fill more roles with people whowant to be there and are
passionate about improving thesport the fan experience as well
as the athlete experience,because those are like three
separate things that maybe we'remissing in the past.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I think that like onething that I think about with
this league, because I think thelevel of play is the highest
we've ever seen in any leagueanywhere in the world.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
I would agree with that.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I think even players that played a decade in Sweden
will tell you this is better.
Like this is faster, morephysical.
There's a lot of reasons forthat, but I think the player
experience is a place wherewe've made huge progress in the
last two years from where weused to be.
But there's also still a hugegap that can be filled, and this
(32:44):
first CBA is through eightyears, so that's two Olympic
cycles.
We'll see first.
You know, the group of playersthat are going to really be in
positions of like to leveragetheir brands.
At the time that first CBA isup, you're going to see
something like the NWSL or theWNBA.
(33:04):
I mean, the NWSL just redidtheir CBA and eliminated the
college draft.
It's all free agency now.
That's what they wanted, that'swhat they got.
This was the first off seasonthat it functioned that way.
It was crazy.
It's been really cool.
I am a huge.
I love attending entry drafts.
I think there's an element ofit.
That's a lot of fun.
I'm a huge proponent foreliminating drafts too, because
I think for our league itwouldn't work right now, because
(33:27):
all the teams are individuallyor not are collectively owned by
one entity.
But when you have teams thatare individually owned.
Having no entry draft forcesevery team to make itself an
attractive place to play,because you have to sell
yourself every time you sign aplayer, and like that's what we
do we, every single time we wanta player to work with us, we
have to make a case of like thisis why you're a good fit here.
(33:49):
This is why we're a good fitfor you.
So I think that that first CBAwe're going to see a huge jump
in player experience.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
But even today, I mean they get a housing stipend.
We've never had that before.
Is it enough?
Money Depends on where you'reliving.
It's better than nothing.
You know some places it's grossand, like Vancouver, is just as
bad, so they're going to havethat issue.
(34:17):
It's something that they doneed to address.
Again, you're working closelywith these individuals.
I'd love for you to share maybeone to three maybe wishlist
items that you'd love to see inthat incorporated, just if you
were to put it out there,manifest, you know, into the
ether.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I would like to see the housing stipend scaled in
some way to cost of living.
I don't think it makes sensefor someone living in Ottawa to
get the same housing stipend assomeone living in Boston.
I think those are verydifferent places to live.
I don't think either place ischeap, but you know your housing
stipend is going to go a tonfurther.
It's also in USD, so theplayers in Canada are getting a
(34:57):
little bit of a better dealbecause it's more Canadian
dollars that they can spend.
So I think that kind ofaligning the, maybe making it
more of a percentage and less oflike a hard number I think that
would be that would help a ton.
I think one of the things theNWSL did recently was to make it
so that players can't be tradedwithout their consent.
(35:19):
So basically everybody startswith like a no trade clause and
they are asked to waive it.
I think that I don't think thePWHL is there yet, like I think
you have to have a certainamount of infrastructure before
you can sort of allow for that.
I can understand from a GMperspective, like why we don't
have it yet.
I also think for a matureleague that's not in the startup
phase, it's a, it's a huge.
(35:41):
I mean, leagues in Europe don'ttrade players, they just don't.
It's not a thing, it's only athing in North America, really.
Um, and I think that it it itrequires um teams to be a little
bit more intentional with thepeople that they're recruiting,
because you can't just tradethem, you know.
And it also requires players todevelop a different kind of
(36:01):
relationship with the teambecause they have a little bit
more leverage, so they feel alittle bit more equal, and I
just think that it improves theproduct.
I feel like we've seen that inthe NWSL and it doesn't mean no
trades.
I think I would say in the NWSLI almost feel like we've seen
at least the same amount.
So I think that's somethingthat I would love to see.
And then another thing is that,like in the PHF, they used to
(36:24):
get like a certain percentage oftheir jersey sales, just like.
I think we should do that Rightnow I can't go online and buy a
Nora Toulouse jersey if I wantto.
I think you should be able todo that, and I think that she
should get a cut of however muchthe league makes or the team
makes from selling that jersey.
I think that is something thatcould go a long way to.
(36:47):
You know, it's maybe not a tonof money right off the bat, but
any amount at this levelsupports, because it's the
difference between making$45,000 and $50,000 a year,
which is actually a pretty hugedifference.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Well, a five grand can go a long way, especially
when that's part of your moneythat you can spend on a daily
basis, right?
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, like the payoff is a little bit less obvious
for you to be someone who getson Instagram and connects
directly with your followers orwhatever it is that that is
going to help sort of build yourfootprint.
I think there are some playerswho really understand and like,
are just attracted to the ideaof doing it for other reasons,
(37:31):
like not necessarily becausethey're thinking about how they
can leverage that to make money.
Like not necessarily becausethey're thinking about how they
can leverage that to make money.
But if you're, if you have thisdirect like, the more people
that buy your jersey, the moremoney you're going to make.
I think players will connect aton more with fans and the
community you know thinkingabout like, the more that I have
these one-on-one connectionswith people, the more people are
going to buy my jersey, themore money I'm going to make.
(37:52):
It's a very easy step-by-stepprocess and that grows the game
Cause you've got kids that youknow.
Just like, I went to a thrashersgame when I was like 10 and I
met Kerry Layton and after thegame and he signed my beanie
baby or whatever, and then Inever missed a thrashers game
and I grew up and here I am.
You know what I mean.
Like I think that I think thatthere's like a very clear flow
(38:13):
chart um with with stuff likejersey sales, where you can see
how it would impact multipleareas of the game you're, you're
on it, hey because I just threwthose at you, like, hey, give
me one to three, and you justgave me three spots, like that's
unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
And that jersey, that jersey, one we got to double
down on.
Um, seriously, because, youknow, insert fanatics, who has
jerseys to sell, or whoever elsewe want ccm, bauer, I don't
care whoever's going to take onthis challenge, we're putting it
out into the ether.
Someone should do it.
Because, hey, by the way, toyour point, if I'm nora and I
have the ability to now send amessage, hey, here's the link to
(38:52):
buy my jersey.
I know you've been supportingme for the past four years
traveling around and it wouldmean a lot to me if you do that.
Oh, actually, by the way,here's a discount code ap15, you
know, or orange 15, whateveryour code is and you now have
the ability to interactone-on-one with an individual,
(39:16):
sell a jersey of yours thatyou're going to get a commission
from Fanatics.
Ccm, bauer, nike, whoever buildsthe jerseys gets to then
benefit from it from a financialstandpoint and a volume sold
standpoint.
To your point, there's a flowchart there.
I just spoke it into what itshould look like.
(39:36):
Someone should take this.
You should receive a royalty.
We'll be sitting back on abeach living off that royalty,
because everyone's winning inthis case, right.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It's an easy one and the NWSL also the Players
Association for the NWSL has arelationship with Breaking tea.
So players get their own likesilly like, not even just their
player names, but like RoseLavelle, there's like a like a
Cincinnati themed Rose Lavelle tshirt or whatever that's where
she's from, that breaking tea.
I mean it doesn't even have tobe the league.
Like I think there are so manyopportunities that like because
(40:10):
we're only in year two and somuch focus has been like where
are they playing, where do theylive?
Like I think the next couple ofyears you're going to start to
be able to see a little bit morecreativity and it's going to be
so fun.
And I also think the playerslooking at this upcoming draft
year, some of the personalitiesthat you're going to see in the
league over the next couple ofyears, is going to make this
even more fun.
(40:31):
Like I think that you knowyou're watching Worlds and
you're looking at Abby Murphyand, like you know, abby Rock is
already a player that peopleknow and like she's not just
known because she's a goodplayer.
She's known for her attitude,she's known for her personality.
There's a ton of those girlscoming into the league in the
next couple of years and themore that you see stuff like
that.
(40:51):
I mean, I think the P2HL canoutpace the NHL and its ability
to market the personalities ofplayers, and we're already in a
good spot with that.
Not that it's like, I mean thebar is kind of low,
unfortunately but I think theP2HL just-.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
That's a good take, I like it.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I mean, we're already doing pregame fits in a way
that is different.
It is in a way that is more.
You know.
I think that women's sportssort of.
I think fans of women's sports,who are not a lot of fans of
women's sports, are notnecessarily global sports fans A
lot of fans of women's sportsare coming to this from a place
of, like, I want to know thenarrative, I want to know the
story, I want to know therelationships between these
(41:27):
players.
If two players hit each otheron the ice, I want to know if
they played against each otherin college.
I want to know if there's somereason why these girls might not
like each other.
You know what I mean.
I think that there are peoplethat watch the NHL that way, but
I think for a lot of us becauseso many of us didn't grow up
playing hockey like even for meI grew up an athlete there was
no infrastructure for me to playhockey.
In Atlanta, I played soccer andthen I played lacrosse and then
(41:49):
I learned how to skate at 25and started playing beer league
Like there's so many of us withthat story that you're already
thinking about marketing femaleathletes in a different way.
I don't think we need to takethe NHL playbook and I don't
think they are.
So I think over the next fiveyears you're going to see a huge
change in the way these playersare marketed, what that means
for them individually as likeowners of their own brand, and
(42:11):
also what that's able to do togrow the league itself and to
grow the sport also what that'sable to do to grow the league
itself and to grow the sport.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Yeah, thank you for clarifying.
What I was doing was showcasingthe old school model with, you
know, the brands that havepreviously been in place, but
realistically, there's nothingstopping Doug Lynch and Zenkai
Sports from doing somethingspecific with PWHL players, like
how he's hooking up Leah Johnfor the Epson tour in the golf
space with CSM, right, likethere's worlds where you can
(42:41):
overlap and take advantage,especially when, to your point,
there's no infrastructure inplace, there's no rules, and
they're dying for it.
Like players, fans, everyonewants it.
They're like, okay, how do Iget a PWHL t-shirt?
You're like, oh, there's's onewebsite and they might be sold
out.
It's like, oh, sick, whereas ifyou were doing the same thing
(43:02):
for an NHL t-shirt, you'd have46 different websites all
bidding for those.
And it's like, to your point,it's just a little bit more time
, a little bit more emphasis onwhat is there, and all it's
going to take is a couple ofcase studies with a couple of
businesses that actually buildout the infrastructure product,
and then I'm like, oh sure, likewe've been missing the boat
here.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, I think you're seeing that a little bit now too
, and honestly, I thinkexpansion is a little bit that
as well, because they will not.
Mark Walter's not going to ownall these teams in five years.
He doesn't want to.
I think no one would ever gointo this with that being the
intention.
It is something that you can doin the short term, but it makes
sense in the long term forthese to be individually owned
teams and I think you're seeingthis.
(43:43):
A ton with Quebec city is areally great example.
They've been very vocal aboutlike we want a team and there
are people here who will buy ateam and support a team
financially.
I think that you know you'veseen NWSL expansions go for
millions of dollars over thelast couple years.
I don't know if we're at thatlevel yet, but people want teams
, cities want teams, big namesin cities want teams.
(44:06):
I mean, maybe maybe you knowthe senators owners want to buy
a team.
Maybe you know one of thereasons you're going to
Vancouver is because there issomeone in Vancouver whether
it's the Canucks owners orsomebody else in Vancouver who
wants in on this, and after thefirst five or six people say I
(44:27):
want in and I'm in and here'swhat it's done for me.
It just kind of snowballs fromthere snowballs from there.
Speaker 3 (44:43):
Let's end this conversation with some
predictions Bold, not so.
We already covered kind of whatwe'd love to see.
As far as adjustments in theCBA To your point, maybe we're
not at the millions valuationsyet, but, like hypothetically
speaking, where do you see it?
What would be that number ifyou were to throw a dart out
there?
And are there any otherpredictions that you'd put out
there as far as reach, scaleplayers, athletes, where there's
(45:06):
kind of specific, maybeopportunities that you would see
?
Again, you're the expert in thespace.
I just get to be the one thatasks the questions and sits back
and listens to your wisdom.
So the floor is yours, Eleni.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I need to look up the Seattle Reign.
Okay, so the Seattle Reign,which is the NWSL team in
Seattle, was acquired for $58million in 2024.
In 2024.
I have to think that a P2HLteam I mean it's got to be in
(45:43):
the $20 million range.
If you're thinking aboutlong-term growth, it depends on
the market.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
That's conservative too.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
It is, no, it is conservative, and I'm doing that
because we don't know exactlyhow much money you can make.
Yet it's a little easier withan NWSL team.
That league's been around for12 years.
Maybe, if you're looking at ateam in a place like Vancouver
where you pulled 19,000 people,I mean, 20,000 is like an
absolute floor.
Sorry, 20 million is anabsolute floor to me, me, I,
(46:17):
yeah.
I don't know, we'll see whathappens.
I think for the first couple ofteams, maybe you sell low just
so that you can have individualowners and that's fine, but I
think that you, I mean, I thinkthese teams are worth a lot of
money.
I think the concept of the teamis worth so much money.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, I'm bullish on this for sure.
Obviously, that's why we're inthe space.
But like I personally am likeyo, I, yo, I feel like I could
put together enough people tofind 20 million.
So, you know, if the Aquilini's, I actually would love to allow
myself the opportunity to runan organization properly in
Vancouver, because there hasn'tnecessarily been an organization
(46:52):
that's run properly inVancouver.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I would trust you.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Thank you.
Thank you, I figured you might,but here's the thing you have
enough people and you actuallycan be really strategic with
this and have athlete ownership.
And when I say that, like, haveplayers own a percentage of the
team, right, and that's whenyou can go really deep and
(47:17):
really incentivize athletes toshowcase the benefits of being a
part of an organization, whatthat can bring to the table,
what it's like after your careerto still be associated with an
organization, like those are thekind of ideas that I think you
know we've.
There's no reason why we can'tbe putting that out there and
(47:37):
making those things happen,right.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
I mean the premier lacrosse league does that the
players have equity in the team.
I mean, I think that that ishuge and I always, like I was at
a baseball game the other dayand my fiance said something
disparaging about the green BayPackers which, like, I don't
care about the green Bay Packersas a football fan, but I was
like no, like I will nottolerate Green Bay Packers
slander because it is the onlycollectively owned professional
(48:01):
sports team in North America andwe need more of that.
I mean, I think that it's.
I think that that's a space inwhich, like, even if you're
selling these teams toindividual owners as a majority
share, I think the playersshould get equity.
I think they should want equity.
I would love to have equity.
Like, I think that this is aspace where this is the time to
get in.
(48:21):
Like, if you wait five years toget in on this, you are going
to kick yourself.
You're going to be buying whenit's high.
You buy when it's low.
Looking up, which is now, Imean the Olympics are next year,
that's going to be huge.
The amount of eyes on teamsbefore and after the Olympics is
going to be massive because alot of Olympians are going to be
playing in this league Not allof them, but a lot of them.
(48:43):
So if I could do it right now,I would do it right now, no
question.
I mean, I am doing it in thisway.
I kind of I didn't necessarilyget into this space to make
money.
I think that's a secondarything for me, but it also like
it is so special to beassociated with an area of
sports that is breaking newground and growing at this pace,
(49:04):
and I think we should all be inon it.
That's what I think.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
I love it.
Like I said, this is the stuffthat they write textbooks about,
and hopefully we can be a partof that on the right side of
history.
Um, I appreciate everythingthat you're doing for csm.
It's amazing.
Um, our hockey division hascontinued to skyrocket thanks to
you.
Yo final question how the heckdo you end up in lander's hockey
pool and when I say hockey pool, I mean fantasy hockey, and I
(49:32):
hear you kind of kick his butttoo at times do I?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
I, I haven't checked.
Little birdie told me the answerto me kicking his butt is just
that Austin Matthews is who Ibuilt my team around and I
inherited that.
So what happened was that therewas someone that he was friends
with who was in this pool andwas like I don't want to do this
anymore, it's a legacy league.
He texted me.
He was like do you want in onthis?
And I was like sure, that'syeah, All right.
Like well, I made him show mewho was on the roster first
(49:56):
Cause I was like am I inheritinggarbage?
Because if that's the case,then no, and it was like a
basically pretty good team,except for the goalies, and I
was like okay, I can probablyfix that in a year or two.
Like that's one position ofneed.
Austin Matthews is going tokeeping Austin Matthews for the
foreseeable future.
For the foreseeable future, youknow, it was like a decently
(50:17):
built enough team.
I got a shout out Lander'sfiance, Lindsay.
We executed a great trade thisseason.
I think worked out really wellfor both of us.
It was a pleasure doingbusiness with her.
Anytime that I can humble I'mthe only woman in this pool, so
anytime I can humble any man inthis space, I think that I am
sort of that is something that Iam required to do when I have
the opportunity to do it.
(50:37):
So unfortunately he's going tobe useless to me after the first
round when the Leafs getbounced, but for the time being,
I'm really appreciating AustinMatthews' ability to put up
points and rocket me up thestandings.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
That's pretty much it , we love it.
We love that answer.
Thank you so much.
The way we wrap up everyepisode.
Speaker 1 (51:12):
Eleni, as you know, we ask our guests their biggest
piece of advice for the next gen.
You've got it from a coupledifferent angles.
25-year-old picking up theskates, allowing athletes about
the most is creating your ownluck.
Like you can't wait forsomething lucky to happen to you
.
Luck is really more about beingin the right position when
stuff happens.
So you got to kind of createyour own luck by working hard,
being a good person you know,doing favors for people, being
(51:32):
there when people need you,thinking about your next step as
a long-term thing and not justkind of shooting from the hip,
being intentional about theconversations you have, the
relationships you build, all ofthat stuff you build your own
luck.
Stuff starts to go your way.
Yeah, I think you can beresponsible for wherever you go
(51:53):
next.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
That's it.
That's the pod folks.
Folks, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (51:58):
Hope you have a great rest of your day all right,
everybody that's gonna do it forus today here at the athletes
podcast.
We hope you enjoyed.
That was eleni domestic has.
She is again the best.
I've got nothing but amazingthings to say about her.
I'm really excited to see wherecookstark management goes with
her in it.
As always, this is free.
We do need you to fulfill theathletes agreement, which is to
like, subscribe, follow, dowhatever you can to support the
(52:21):
podcast.
It means a ton to us.
Let's just keep interviewingawesome people like Eleni.
Let's just keep moving forward.
So, yeah, hope you guys allhave a great week coming up and
we'll see you in the next one.
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