March 24, 2025 • 22 mins
What Really Happens to Your Trash? Inside Modern Waste Management
Is your trash really being recycled, or is it ending up in a landfill? In this episode of The Audit, we sit down with Trista Martinson, Executive Director at Ramsey Washington Recycling & Energy, to uncover the surprising technology and cybersecurity challenges behind modern waste management.
Trista joins the IT Audit Labs team to reveal how AI, robotics, and environmental science are transforming recycling, while also sharing how The Audit's own Eric Brown helped strengthen her organization’s cybersecurity to protect critical infrastructure.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How AI and robotics are revolutionizing waste processing
- The reality behind China’s global recycling market
- Why recycling facilities are prime targets for cyberattacks
- The role of cybersecurity in protecting critical infrastructure
- How a military mindset influences risk assessment
- The biggest mistakes people make when disposing of trash
From optimizing recycling with data to securing waste facilities against ransomware, this episode dives deep into the hidden world of trash, tech, and security.
🔔 Subscribe for more cybersecurity and technology insights!
#Cybersecurity #WasteManagement #Recycling #AI #TheAuditPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joshua Schmidt (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Audit presented
by IT Audit Labs.
I'm your co-host and producer,joshua Schmidt, and we're joined
by Nick Mellum, down in Texas,and our usual host, eric Brown,
managing Director.
And then today we're joined byTrista Martinson.
She's the Executive Director atRamsey Washington Recycling and
Energy.
Thanks for joining us in thestudio today, trista.
(00:24):
Can you give us a littlebackground at Ramsey Washington
Recycling and Energy, what youdo there, what the day-to-day is
like?
Trista Martinson (00:31):
Yeah, so, as you said, I'm the Executive
Director at Ramsey WashingtonRecycling and Energy and we
process all of the trash for thetwo counties.
So imagine Ramsey County,washington County 880,000
residents produce a lot of trash.
All that trash comes throughour facility and we process that
to take out any valuables thatare in the trash.
(00:54):
When I say valuables, I meanrecyclables and ways that we can
reduce what goes to landfill.
Our goal is to divert fromlandfills.
Landfills are bad because wateralways wins and it will get
into the landfill and it willleak and then we'll have toxins
in our water supply.
So our goal is to process waste, getting the value out of the
waste and not sending tolandfill.
Eric Brown (01:17):
And so do you take those materials that might be
contaminated, or do you workwith partners that do that?
Trista Martinson (01:26):
Yeah, so not exactly.
So we're taking recyclables out, so we're taking aluminums,
ferrous metals, those kinds ofthings out.
The part that's exciting is ournew program around organics,
and that is we are collectinghousehold food scraps, as you
know, and I know you're aparticipant and we collect those
(01:46):
in these green bags.
So people put household foodscraps as you know, and I know
you're a participant and wecollect those in these green
bags.
So people put their food scrapsin, tie it off, throw it in
their trash bin.
It comes to our facility and wehave robots that use AI that
can pick those bags out of thetrash.
And right now those bags go tocompost.
So everyone knows, understandscompost.
They're going to an industrialcomposter.
But here, by 2027, we're in theprocess of building an
(02:10):
anaerobic digester with apartner company.
Public-private partnerships arereally important, so it's a
partner company that is buildingthat digester for our benefit.
Then those bags will go to thatdigester.
Technology is really basic.
It's kind of like a giantindustrial cow, right?
So food goes in, it goesthrough a series of four
(02:31):
stomachs that break it down andclean compost comes out the
backside.
Eric Brown (02:35):
And with those robots they work optically right
.
I had the opportunity to seethose and that was really cool.
So they're sorting through thetrash and they're picking out
those green bags.
Trista Martinson (02:46):
Yes, and they're learning because of AI,
right, so they're learning asthey go.
So when we got the robots, theyhad no data, no memory.
No, you know they're learning,so we've been teaching them as
they go how to identify thegreen bags as opposed to
something else green in thetrash or something else in the
trash.
Eric Brown (03:03):
And at Ramsey and now at the recycling center.
You're part of criticalinfrastructure.
Trista Martinson (03:10):
Absolutely we are.
We are a public health,environmental health tour and
when you think about, you knowthis goes not just cybersecurity
but all security.
If we think about shutting downinfrastructures, if we're not
processing trash and that'sfilling up, people are going to
be really sick, really fast.
Eric Brown (03:28):
And trash.
There's still the politicalcomponent of it, because there's
regulations around landfill andburning and all of those sorts
of things that, if I recall, youinvite people that are into
politics to come down and have atour of the facility.
Trista Martinson (03:47):
Absolutely so.
We are ourselves our owngovernment entity, we're a joint
powers board of two counties,and so our goal is not just to
process the trash for thecommunity, but for people to
really understand what we do andset good future policy for
future generations.
And the way we do that isshowing people what we do.
Come see.
It makes a lot more sense whenyou see and I'll just quickly
(04:10):
say we have a great onlinevirtual tour as well.
So if anyone is like what inthe heck is she talking about?
I want to see these robots youcan just go to Ramsey Washington
Recycling Energy slash toursand take a look online of these
videos.
They're fantastic.
Eric Brown (04:26):
Going into that recycling stream Ramsey
Washington Recycling and Energyslash tours and take a look
online of these videos.
They're fantastic.
Going into that recyclingstream you and I have had a
couple of chats about this.
I found it really interestingwhere we were sending some of
our materials to other countries.
Trista Martinson (04:35):
Yes.
Eric Brown (04:36):
And those other countries were.
Trista Martinson (04:39):
Storing it.
Eric Brown (04:40):
Yes, yeah.
Trista Martinson (04:41):
Yeah, I mean, this is what really was my
personal turning point.
Before the pandemic hit, I hadthe opportunity to go to China
and it was a sister cityexchange tour, not about garbage
, but I can't help myself, like,once you, once you get the
garbage bug, you're, you'rethere.
And so while I was there, Ikept asking them because we were
(05:02):
selling our recyclables toChina.
I was like, what are you doingwith them?
And I thought they were liketurning every plastic bottle
into a bench or something tothat nature.
And they were very confused bymy question and the more I asked
, I think I was frustrating them.
But they also were like, fine,we'll tell you.
And.
(05:23):
And so they took me out to acountryside area where I saw,
literally as far as I could see,just bales and bales of plastic
bottles and aluminum cans andall those recyclables sold, just
like we do.
And I said what are you goingto do with them?
And they said we're going tosell them back to you.
And?
And the reason is because, ifyou think about, this is just
(05:45):
fifth grade science class, right, everything created has energy
in it and so it's storing energy.
How do we get it back out?
And China does strategicplanning for 700 years into the
future, and they had calculatedthat they had purchased enough
storage of these materials thathave value that they didn't need
to purchase anymore, and sothey stopped purchasing and
(06:07):
their plan is to sell it back tothe United States in the future
because we're going to need it.
We're going to run out ofresources, we're going to run
out of energy and we're going toneed it, and that was my
turning point.
I'm like I'm never buying trashfrom China and we're going to
do it different and we're goingto get the value out of it right
now.
Eric Brown (06:22):
That's interesting.
Yeah, that's so cool, as I'vegotten as we've we've gotten to
work together in your new role.
Yes, I've learned more aboutthis and it's probably, like you
know, with with my friends andstuff, when, when I come in,
people start witnessing aboutcybersecurity of, like you know,
I'm putting all my passwords ina password manager and I'm
(06:44):
blocking my credit, right.
Trista Martinson (06:46):
This is the great thing of when we learn
what other people do and we canapply it to our lives right.
I mean, when you and I started,you were like Trista, you're
using the same password foreverything, and I was, and I
knew better, but I was, becauseI can't remember all that stuff.
And you got me hooked onBitwarden and other password
keepers and it's gone from there.
Eric Brown (07:06):
Yes, how's that going?
Trista Martinson (07:07):
It's going well, thank goodness.
Awesome.
So far, so good.
There's always room forimprovement and you're always
teaching me and I take itverbatim and we're applying that
both at Ramsey County but alsonow at Ramsey, washington.
Recycling and Energy.
Eric Brown (07:22):
Yes, yeah, now at Ramsey, washington, recycling
and Energy yes, yeah.
And that, bringing along that,going on that technology journey
to refresh the technology, toposition Ramsey and Washington
for the future, that's justgoing to be a great project.
Trista Martinson (07:35):
It is really.
Joshua Schmidt (07:36):
You mentioned you're working with a lot of
technology.
Can you walk us through some ofthe challenges security
challenges you faced therebefore working with Eric?
Trista Martinson (07:44):
Yeah.
So before I came on board andas the county was just
purchasing the facility, webought it from a private company
and the two counties purchasedthe facility so that we could
process trash.
They had a cyber attack andthey had a ransomware event and
(08:05):
really I think that was thewake-up call of like, oh, we've
got to do something different.
And you think, as we said, it'scritical infrastructure,
there's targeted and there arebad actors out there that are
doing bad things, and so therehad been some work to make it
secure and to do what's the nextlevel of security.
But we're relatively new, eventhough we're coming on 10 years.
(08:28):
We're kind of like a pseudostartup company, even though
we're government.
We've really been growingquickly, and so when I came on
board last summer, having workedwith you previously and knew
your skillset, I was like I gotto get I just for my own sense
of safety.
I was like I got to get Ericaover here and I asked you to do
a full audit of our systems tosay how do we, you know, what
(08:54):
are we missing?
Where can we do better?
How can we, you know, improveour health of our security and
our systems, and how do we alsoteach them, train them and equip
them to have so their systemsare working, so that we have the
greatest productivity.
Eric Brown (09:09):
Awesome, yeah, yeah, happy to do it.
Yeah, and you've done a greatjob, oh well, thank you, we're
just getting started, we're justgetting started.
Trista Martinson (09:15):
But you know, in some of it, when you do a
screen, you're like whew, we gotsome you know, it's like
getting a physical at the doctorand you're like you need to
lose a few pounds, right?
So we got some things to do,but we've got a plan.
Joshua Schmidt (09:29):
Maybe, Eric, you could walk us through kind of
your experience joining Trista'snew team and kind of what it
was like getting an assessmentof the new facility when.
Eric Brown (09:39):
Trista left, it was a little bit of a shock of like,
oh no Right.
And then learning more aboutthe facility was really cool,
yeah, and everything that wentinto it.
It kind of got me in adifferent mindset too.
With the downstream part ofwaste, yeah, the environment.
(09:59):
It seemed really at anopportunity to come in and
really rebuild that foundationso that when you bring your
vision forward you're stable andyou have a comfortable place to
operate from.
So I think we're still goingdown that path.
We're coming out of the auditwork and now starting some of
(10:22):
that implementation, gettinginto that phase, and I think
it'll be a fun summer.
Trista Martinson (10:27):
Yeah, it's going to be well, not just a fun
summer, but like we've got afive-year, 10-year plan that
we're working on right now tothink about strategic direction
and how we do what's next.
We've talked a lot about theorganics and that's coming
online, but now that you knowthat train has left the station
and we know we're going to getthere and achieve our goals, but
we got to look at what else isthere right?
(10:48):
There's still value in thattrash, things that we haven't
recovered, and so, as we'rethinking about how do we process
, how do we gain traction on thenext thing, we're going to need
technology and theinfrastructure there and, as we
grow as an organization, we'reexpected to probably gain
another 10 to 15 staff in thenext two years and we need to
(11:09):
make sure that they have theequipment and technology.
And there's an expectation fromthe community that people are
accessible and reachable andresponsive, and all of that
requires technology and to do itin a safe way, which we talked
about, human behavior, andthat's the hard part.
Eric Brown (11:24):
One of the more interesting conversations that
I've had with a few folks onyour team recently was around
okay, we're collecting all ofthis data.
Now what do we do with it?
So there's a ton of informationto be had.
And how do we get thatinformation, do something with
it and then educate people sothat we're getting more of the
(11:44):
right stuff, you know, in thetrash stream.
And looking at where AI is andeverything that AI could bring
to help the people.
Maybe do less repetitive worksimilar to what you're doing
with the robots on the line.
Let's do the same thing withrobots or AI in the office space
.
Trista Martinson (12:03):
Absolutely, and if we think about our goal,
our ultimate goal is zero waste,right, and it's the waste
hierarchy of zero waste reduce,reuse, recycle, and then we get
to turn it into fuel, right?
So that's kind of our hierarchy.
At the end, if you look at thewaystream, you can see what's
(12:24):
left, right and how people arechanging or not, and so that's
why that data is so important.
But we also want to be able toset realistic metrics, goals and
then assess ourselvesaccordingly, and so you're going
to help us do that.
Eric Brown (12:38):
Absolutely With the advance of AI and soon quantum.
We got a podcast coming up onquantum here in a couple of
weeks with Bill Harris.
But the energy needs are justhuge.
It's just skyrocketing.
I guess we could call it theworking part of Three Mile
(13:00):
Island.
And they're going to start thatreactor up again and I think
there's other talk about theneed for reactors.
But in the same vein I saw thatI think it was in France had a
vision reactor.
I don't know if I'm getting thatright, Whereas that's kind of
(13:21):
clean energy to produceelectricity.
So lots of innovation going inthat space.
But even having clean energyhydrogen to produce electricity
would be awesome Right.
Trista Martinson (13:34):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
And the other thing is, yourfolks have to figure out how to
use less energy to do the sameamount of work with all the
cyber AI, right, it's like we'redoing it, we're building more
things, but we're not reducingthe energy usage.
So we got to come at it fromboth ends.
Yeah.
Eric Brown (13:55):
I remember having a conversation with one of the
other board members and wentinto his office and because he's
a public figure there's lots ofrecordings of him speaking.
So I grabbed a couple of thoserecordings and then ran it
through.
But it was able to then copyhis voice so I could type in
(14:17):
something and then it soundedlike he was saying it.
But that kind of blew his mind.
And nowadays there's AI outthere that with Google Notebook
LM, it'll take content andcreate a two-person podcast on
that content.
(14:37):
So really mind-blowing,absolutely.
And on the AI side, at RamseyWashington, recycling, you've
got those robots working.
How are those robots?
What's the AI in them?
Trista Martinson (14:51):
Yeah, so our robots have a visioning system
right and so they're watching.
And then we have a partnercompany that uploads neural
network updates.
So there's actually peoplewatching that video screen right
and hours of data andidentifying green bag, not green
bag, green bag not, and thenthey upload that data to the
(15:14):
robot.
So that's how they're learningas they go.
I mean, there's still a humaninteraction component to that.
The robots, specifically to theorganics, as I said, they came
with no data because we're thefirst of its kind.
Nobody else is doing this, notlike this.
For this purpose Now we usesimilar robots and a similar
visioning, the same visioningsystem for other recyclable like
(15:37):
aluminum cans but, people havebeen.
You know lots of places arerecycling aluminum cans and use
similar systems because there'sso much more data.
It goes to that data and datasharing as they get those
uploads of new neural networks,but also as the market changes,
right, and you think about cansdon't look the same as they get
those uploads of new neuralnetworks, but also as the market
changes, right, and if youthink about cans don't look the
same as they did even five or 10years ago.
(15:57):
If you look at an aluminum canand so thinking about like
they're always learning andgrowing, but it's different
neural networks that getuploaded.
Eric Brown (16:06):
Got it so that third party is helping and maybe
they're using, like MechanicalTurk, Amazon's Mechanical Turk
where humans get maybe a threesecond video clip and they're
identifying that that's a greenbag.
Trista Martinson (16:18):
Precisely Again, as I'm sharing this, I'm
both sharing all thisinformation but also feeling a
little vulnerable, because I'msharing, like, where we might
have vulnerabilities, but wehave IT Audit Labs, so I'm
feeling secure and safe.
But if we think about theprocess of trash and processing
trash from a security aspect,there are bad actors.
(16:38):
The same bad actors Nick and Iwere chatting earlier, the same
bad actors that we've beenfighting for hundreds of years
are now doing it in this new waywith cybersecurity.
Nick Mellem (16:47):
Yeah, you know, jumping into the military aspect
, you know, is there any waysthat you are directly connecting
your military experience toyour job now, and how ITI Out of
Labs is helping in thissecurity space?
Trista Martinson (16:59):
Well, so I mean, once you have been trained
in the military, that journeynever goes away, and so for me
it's like.
It's like it's like beingsomeone who is new to an area
and, through assimilation, islearning the language how I have
team meetings, to how we'reidentifying workloads and
(17:20):
schedules, and even where we putadditional safety equipment or
cameras up.
It all, for me, goes back tothat original training and where
there might be vulnerabilities.
Nick Mellem (17:30):
Yeah, I don't know For me.
Maybe, trista, you feel thesame way and a leader outside of
the military told me this onceand I use it to draw back to my
military experience we had amajor outage.
This is 10, 10 plus years ago,and you know I was a little bit
more frantic earlier on in mycareer and he just looked at me
and said nobody's, nobody'sdying.
You know, we're, we're, we'reall good you know we're, we're
(17:53):
all good.
So now I think you know whenwe're working with organizations
, big or small, you know it's.
I think it's a lot easier forus now to you know put these
items into boxes and move themstrategically around.
What's important now, what'simportant in the future?
Uh, so we can you know ifthere's a risk register maybe
that we're working with.
We can pick items three andseven and work on them first,
versus maybe one and two thataren't, you know, maybe as big
(18:14):
of an issue right now but couldbe in the future.
So being able to, you know,maybe dummy some things down
that aren't as big of a deal inthe moment, has been, has been
big, and I'm sure you know,maybe you're seeing the same
thing.
Trista Martinson (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, just when you all didthe audit report for us, after
kind of giving us a goodassessment, you know, and Eric's
like where do you want to start?
And I'm like you tell me, likewhat is the biggest risk?
I want to start at the mostvulnerable and go from there so
that we and for us, you know, asyou mentioned, we're a working
facility it is a dangerous placeto work or can be a dangerous
(18:49):
place to work.
So you know, there are lives atstake if we get it wrong on
certain areas.
So if we're not calculatingloads and input and outputs of
just the weight and volume andwhat's there, that becomes a
risk.
And so we, you know, we kind ofhave that risk there of
analyzing what that looks likeand it all comes back to do we
(19:09):
have a good hygiene on ournetwork.
Eric Brown (19:11):
Do you see the opportunity for more automation
in the space and maybe usingmachines that would maybe help
save human lives?
Trista Martinson (19:21):
Yes, I do.
I do think that there's roomfor more automation.
Some of the work is alwaysgoing to be manual, right?
So maintenance of machines,repair of equipment.
But there's opportunity inmaking our work easier so we can
do more.
Joshua Schmidt (19:36):
Just connecting several dots here with what's
going in the garbage.
Is there anything we shouldn'tbe putting in the trash from a
security perspective, or even acybersecurity perspective?
Trista Martinson (19:46):
No one's looking that close at the trash
and it's going to be ground upin stuff, so I think that that
is actually probably safe From aphysical security aspect.
Things that shouldn't go in thetrash are what's going to harm
our equipment or destroy ourcameras or other infrastructure.
Like lithium batteries no,they're great for technology,
(20:06):
they're in everything.
They can't go in the trash.
They start fires very easily.
Also, don't put them in yourjunk drawer at home because
you're going to have a fire atsome point.
So, just as a reminder, becauseeveryone's got their batteries
in their drawer, don't do thatwith lithium batteries.
They start fires.
We have a website that is got aton of information and they can
(20:26):
learn more.
They can even type in, you know, on the question of like where
do I take whatever information?
If it's a, where do I take mypropane tank?
And it will help you searchwhere to go.
Obviously, there's all kinds ofsearch engines, but they can
come directly to our website.
So just recyclingandenergyorg.
You can go on and takea look.
There's tons of information.
(20:46):
Again, you can watch thevirtual tour and watch the
robots we've been talking aboutand see firsthand.
You can sign up for a tour oryou can just shoot me an email
and I'm.
You know I love showing off ourfacility so people can come and
take a look.
Nick Mellem (21:00):
I think we need to corner the market for the
recycling and energy for themilitary.
Yeah, all of our trash intheater in Afghanistan.
Um, I don't know, maybe thatprobably can't be the best
method.
There's always something goingoff over there and the smell
will never leave.
Joshua Schmidt (21:16):
Yeah best part about it, nick, is you can go
visit the cats at the factory atthe uh there I can't wait to
visit all the cats at thefactory.
Trista Martinson (21:27):
We do have.
We have unionized cats at theplant, yeah, but Nick, actually
that's like a whole otherafter-hours podcast about them
the.
Joshua Schmidt (21:42):
Nick can name your cats for you, trista, mr.
Nick Mellem (21:45):
Meowgie.
Caddy Perry.
Caddy Perry, yep General Meow.
Sp.
Catty Perry.
Catty Perry, yep General Meow.
Joshua Schmidt (21:53):
Those are his cat's names.
Well, this is a great place toleave it for today.
You've been listening to theAudit presented by IT.
Nick Mellem (22:00):
Oh, there we go.
We're back in the militarysmoke bed.
Eric Brown (22:04):
You have been listening to the Audit presented
by IT Audit Labs.
We are experts at assessingrisk and compliance, while
providing administrative andtechnical controls to improve
our clients' data security.
Our threat assessments find thesoft spots before the bad guys
do, identifying likelihood andimpact, while our security
control assessments rank thelevel of maturity relative to
(22:27):
the size of your organization,thanks to our devoted listeners
and followers, as well as ourproducer, joshua J Schmidt.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Audit presented
by IT Audit Labs.
I'm your co-host and producer,joshua Schmidt, and we're joined
by Nick Mellum, down in Texas,and our usual host, eric Brown,
managing Director.
And then today we're joined byTrista Martinson.
She's the Executive Director atRamsey Washington Recycling and
Energy.
Thanks for joining us in thestudio today, trista.
(00:24):
Can you give us a littlebackground at Ramsey Washington
Recycling and Energy, what youdo there, what the day-to-day is
like?
Trista Martinson (00:31):
Yeah, so, as you said, I'm the Executive
Director at Ramsey WashingtonRecycling and Energy and we
process all of the trash for thetwo counties.
So imagine Ramsey County,washington County 880,000
residents produce a lot of trash.
All that trash comes throughour facility and we process that
to take out any valuables thatare in the trash.
(00:54):
When I say valuables, I meanrecyclables and ways that we can
reduce what goes to landfill.
Our goal is to divert fromlandfills.
Landfills are bad because wateralways wins and it will get
into the landfill and it willleak and then we'll have toxins
in our water supply.
So our goal is to process waste, getting the value out of the
waste and not sending tolandfill.
Eric Brown (01:17):
And so do you take those materials that might be
contaminated, or do you workwith partners that do that?
Trista Martinson (01:26):
Yeah, so not exactly.
So we're taking recyclables out, so we're taking aluminums,
ferrous metals, those kinds ofthings out.
The part that's exciting is ournew program around organics,
and that is we are collectinghousehold food scraps, as you
know, and I know you're aparticipant and we collect those
(01:46):
in these green bags.
So people put household foodscraps as you know, and I know
you're a participant and wecollect those in these green
bags.
So people put their food scrapsin, tie it off, throw it in
their trash bin.
It comes to our facility and wehave robots that use AI that
can pick those bags out of thetrash.
And right now those bags go tocompost.
So everyone knows, understandscompost.
They're going to an industrialcomposter.
But here, by 2027, we're in theprocess of building an
(02:10):
anaerobic digester with apartner company.
Public-private partnerships arereally important, so it's a
partner company that is buildingthat digester for our benefit.
Then those bags will go to thatdigester.
Technology is really basic.
It's kind of like a giantindustrial cow, right?
So food goes in, it goesthrough a series of four
(02:31):
stomachs that break it down andclean compost comes out the
backside.
Eric Brown (02:35):
And with those robots they work optically right
.
I had the opportunity to seethose and that was really cool.
So they're sorting through thetrash and they're picking out
those green bags.
Trista Martinson (02:46):
Yes, and they're learning because of AI,
right, so they're learning asthey go.
So when we got the robots, theyhad no data, no memory.
No, you know they're learning,so we've been teaching them as
they go how to identify thegreen bags as opposed to
something else green in thetrash or something else in the
trash.
Eric Brown (03:03):
And at Ramsey and now at the recycling center.
You're part of criticalinfrastructure.
Trista Martinson (03:10):
Absolutely we are.
We are a public health,environmental health tour and
when you think about, you knowthis goes not just cybersecurity
but all security.
If we think about shutting downinfrastructures, if we're not
processing trash and that'sfilling up, people are going to
be really sick, really fast.
Eric Brown (03:28):
And trash.
There's still the politicalcomponent of it, because there's
regulations around landfill andburning and all of those sorts
of things that, if I recall, youinvite people that are into
politics to come down and have atour of the facility.
Trista Martinson (03:47):
Absolutely so.
We are ourselves our owngovernment entity, we're a joint
powers board of two counties,and so our goal is not just to
process the trash for thecommunity, but for people to
really understand what we do andset good future policy for
future generations.
And the way we do that isshowing people what we do.
Come see.
It makes a lot more sense whenyou see and I'll just quickly
(04:10):
say we have a great onlinevirtual tour as well.
So if anyone is like what inthe heck is she talking about?
I want to see these robots youcan just go to Ramsey Washington
Recycling Energy slash toursand take a look online of these
videos.
They're fantastic.
Eric Brown (04:26):
Going into that recycling stream Ramsey
Washington Recycling and Energyslash tours and take a look
online of these videos.
They're fantastic.
Going into that recyclingstream you and I have had a
couple of chats about this.
I found it really interestingwhere we were sending some of
our materials to other countries.
Trista Martinson (04:35):
Yes.
Eric Brown (04:36):
And those other countries were.
Trista Martinson (04:39):
Storing it.
Eric Brown (04:40):
Yes, yeah.
Trista Martinson (04:41):
Yeah, I mean, this is what really was my
personal turning point.
Before the pandemic hit, I hadthe opportunity to go to China
and it was a sister cityexchange tour, not about garbage
, but I can't help myself, like,once you, once you get the
garbage bug, you're, you'rethere.
And so while I was there, Ikept asking them because we were
(05:02):
selling our recyclables toChina.
I was like, what are you doingwith them?
And I thought they were liketurning every plastic bottle
into a bench or something tothat nature.
And they were very confused bymy question and the more I asked
, I think I was frustrating them.
But they also were like, fine,we'll tell you.
And.
(05:23):
And so they took me out to acountryside area where I saw,
literally as far as I could see,just bales and bales of plastic
bottles and aluminum cans andall those recyclables sold, just
like we do.
And I said what are you goingto do with them?
And they said we're going tosell them back to you.
And?
And the reason is because, ifyou think about, this is just
(05:45):
fifth grade science class, right, everything created has energy
in it and so it's storing energy.
How do we get it back out?
And China does strategicplanning for 700 years into the
future, and they had calculatedthat they had purchased enough
storage of these materials thathave value that they didn't need
to purchase anymore, and sothey stopped purchasing and
(06:07):
their plan is to sell it back tothe United States in the future
because we're going to need it.
We're going to run out ofresources, we're going to run
out of energy and we're going toneed it, and that was my
turning point.
I'm like I'm never buying trashfrom China and we're going to
do it different and we're goingto get the value out of it right
now.
Eric Brown (06:22):
That's interesting.
Yeah, that's so cool, as I'vegotten as we've we've gotten to
work together in your new role.
Yes, I've learned more aboutthis and it's probably, like you
know, with with my friends andstuff, when, when I come in,
people start witnessing aboutcybersecurity of, like you know,
I'm putting all my passwords ina password manager and I'm
(06:44):
blocking my credit, right.
Trista Martinson (06:46):
This is the great thing of when we learn
what other people do and we canapply it to our lives right.
I mean, when you and I started,you were like Trista, you're
using the same password foreverything, and I was, and I
knew better, but I was, becauseI can't remember all that stuff.
And you got me hooked onBitwarden and other password
keepers and it's gone from there.
Eric Brown (07:06):
Yes, how's that going?
Trista Martinson (07:07):
It's going well, thank goodness.
Awesome.
So far, so good.
There's always room forimprovement and you're always
teaching me and I take itverbatim and we're applying that
both at Ramsey County but alsonow at Ramsey, washington.
Recycling and Energy.
Eric Brown (07:22):
Yes, yeah, now at Ramsey, washington, recycling
and Energy yes, yeah.
And that, bringing along that,going on that technology journey
to refresh the technology, toposition Ramsey and Washington
for the future, that's justgoing to be a great project.
Trista Martinson (07:35):
It is really.
Joshua Schmidt (07:36):
You mentioned you're working with a lot of
technology.
Can you walk us through some ofthe challenges security
challenges you faced therebefore working with Eric?
Trista Martinson (07:44):
Yeah.
So before I came on board andas the county was just
purchasing the facility, webought it from a private company
and the two counties purchasedthe facility so that we could
process trash.
They had a cyber attack andthey had a ransomware event and
(08:05):
really I think that was thewake-up call of like, oh, we've
got to do something different.
And you think, as we said, it'scritical infrastructure,
there's targeted and there arebad actors out there that are
doing bad things, and so therehad been some work to make it
secure and to do what's the nextlevel of security.
But we're relatively new, eventhough we're coming on 10 years.
(08:28):
We're kind of like a pseudostartup company, even though
we're government.
We've really been growingquickly, and so when I came on
board last summer, having workedwith you previously and knew
your skillset, I was like I gotto get I just for my own sense
of safety.
I was like I got to get Ericaover here and I asked you to do
a full audit of our systems tosay how do we, you know, what
(08:54):
are we missing?
Where can we do better?
How can we, you know, improveour health of our security and
our systems, and how do we alsoteach them, train them and equip
them to have so their systemsare working, so that we have the
greatest productivity.
Eric Brown (09:09):
Awesome, yeah, yeah, happy to do it.
Yeah, and you've done a greatjob, oh well, thank you, we're
just getting started, we're justgetting started.
Trista Martinson (09:15):
But you know, in some of it, when you do a
screen, you're like whew, we gotsome you know, it's like
getting a physical at the doctorand you're like you need to
lose a few pounds, right?
So we got some things to do,but we've got a plan.
Joshua Schmidt (09:29):
Maybe, Eric, you could walk us through kind of
your experience joining Trista'snew team and kind of what it
was like getting an assessmentof the new facility when.
Eric Brown (09:39):
Trista left, it was a little bit of a shock of like,
oh no Right.
And then learning more aboutthe facility was really cool,
yeah, and everything that wentinto it.
It kind of got me in adifferent mindset too.
With the downstream part ofwaste, yeah, the environment.
(09:59):
It seemed really at anopportunity to come in and
really rebuild that foundationso that when you bring your
vision forward you're stable andyou have a comfortable place to
operate from.
So I think we're still goingdown that path.
We're coming out of the auditwork and now starting some of
(10:22):
that implementation, gettinginto that phase, and I think
it'll be a fun summer.
Trista Martinson (10:27):
Yeah, it's going to be well, not just a fun
summer, but like we've got afive-year, 10-year plan that
we're working on right now tothink about strategic direction
and how we do what's next.
We've talked a lot about theorganics and that's coming
online, but now that you knowthat train has left the station
and we know we're going to getthere and achieve our goals, but
we got to look at what else isthere right?
(10:48):
There's still value in thattrash, things that we haven't
recovered, and so, as we'rethinking about how do we process
, how do we gain traction on thenext thing, we're going to need
technology and theinfrastructure there and, as we
grow as an organization, we'reexpected to probably gain
another 10 to 15 staff in thenext two years and we need to
(11:09):
make sure that they have theequipment and technology.
And there's an expectation fromthe community that people are
accessible and reachable andresponsive, and all of that
requires technology and to do itin a safe way, which we talked
about, human behavior, andthat's the hard part.
Eric Brown (11:24):
One of the more interesting conversations that
I've had with a few folks onyour team recently was around
okay, we're collecting all ofthis data.
Now what do we do with it?
So there's a ton of informationto be had.
And how do we get thatinformation, do something with
it and then educate people sothat we're getting more of the
(11:44):
right stuff, you know, in thetrash stream.
And looking at where AI is andeverything that AI could bring
to help the people.
Maybe do less repetitive worksimilar to what you're doing
with the robots on the line.
Let's do the same thing withrobots or AI in the office space
.
Trista Martinson (12:03):
Absolutely, and if we think about our goal,
our ultimate goal is zero waste,right, and it's the waste
hierarchy of zero waste reduce,reuse, recycle, and then we get
to turn it into fuel, right?
So that's kind of our hierarchy.
At the end, if you look at thewaystream, you can see what's
(12:24):
left, right and how people arechanging or not, and so that's
why that data is so important.
But we also want to be able toset realistic metrics, goals and
then assess ourselvesaccordingly, and so you're going
to help us do that.
Eric Brown (12:38):
Absolutely With the advance of AI and soon quantum.
We got a podcast coming up onquantum here in a couple of
weeks with Bill Harris.
But the energy needs are justhuge.
It's just skyrocketing.
I guess we could call it theworking part of Three Mile
(13:00):
Island.
And they're going to start thatreactor up again and I think
there's other talk about theneed for reactors.
But in the same vein I saw thatI think it was in France had a
vision reactor.
I don't know if I'm getting thatright, Whereas that's kind of
(13:21):
clean energy to produceelectricity.
So lots of innovation going inthat space.
But even having clean energyhydrogen to produce electricity
would be awesome Right.
Trista Martinson (13:34):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
And the other thing is, yourfolks have to figure out how to
use less energy to do the sameamount of work with all the
cyber AI, right, it's like we'redoing it, we're building more
things, but we're not reducingthe energy usage.
So we got to come at it fromboth ends.
Yeah.
Eric Brown (13:55):
I remember having a conversation with one of the
other board members and wentinto his office and because he's
a public figure there's lots ofrecordings of him speaking.
So I grabbed a couple of thoserecordings and then ran it
through.
But it was able to then copyhis voice so I could type in
(14:17):
something and then it soundedlike he was saying it.
But that kind of blew his mind.
And nowadays there's AI outthere that with Google Notebook
LM, it'll take content andcreate a two-person podcast on
that content.
(14:37):
So really mind-blowing,absolutely.
And on the AI side, at RamseyWashington, recycling, you've
got those robots working.
How are those robots?
What's the AI in them?
Trista Martinson (14:51):
Yeah, so our robots have a visioning system
right and so they're watching.
And then we have a partnercompany that uploads neural
network updates.
So there's actually peoplewatching that video screen right
and hours of data andidentifying green bag, not green
bag, green bag not, and thenthey upload that data to the
(15:14):
robot.
So that's how they're learningas they go.
I mean, there's still a humaninteraction component to that.
The robots, specifically to theorganics, as I said, they came
with no data because we're thefirst of its kind.
Nobody else is doing this, notlike this.
For this purpose Now we usesimilar robots and a similar
visioning, the same visioningsystem for other recyclable like
(15:37):
aluminum cans but, people havebeen.
You know lots of places arerecycling aluminum cans and use
similar systems because there'sso much more data.
It goes to that data and datasharing as they get those
uploads of new neural networks,but also as the market changes,
right, and you think about cansdon't look the same as they get
those uploads of new neuralnetworks, but also as the market
changes, right, and if youthink about cans don't look the
same as they did even five or 10years ago.
(15:57):
If you look at an aluminum canand so thinking about like
they're always learning andgrowing, but it's different
neural networks that getuploaded.
Eric Brown (16:06):
Got it so that third party is helping and maybe
they're using, like MechanicalTurk, Amazon's Mechanical Turk
where humans get maybe a threesecond video clip and they're
identifying that that's a greenbag.
Trista Martinson (16:18):
Precisely Again, as I'm sharing this, I'm
both sharing all thisinformation but also feeling a
little vulnerable, because I'msharing, like, where we might
have vulnerabilities, but wehave IT Audit Labs, so I'm
feeling secure and safe.
But if we think about theprocess of trash and processing
trash from a security aspect,there are bad actors.
(16:38):
The same bad actors Nick and Iwere chatting earlier, the same
bad actors that we've beenfighting for hundreds of years
are now doing it in this new waywith cybersecurity.
Nick Mellem (16:47):
Yeah, you know, jumping into the military aspect
, you know, is there any waysthat you are directly connecting
your military experience toyour job now, and how ITI Out of
Labs is helping in thissecurity space?
Trista Martinson (16:59):
Well, so I mean, once you have been trained
in the military, that journeynever goes away, and so for me
it's like.
It's like it's like beingsomeone who is new to an area
and, through assimilation, islearning the language how I have
team meetings, to how we'reidentifying workloads and
(17:20):
schedules, and even where we putadditional safety equipment or
cameras up.
It all, for me, goes back tothat original training and where
there might be vulnerabilities.
Nick Mellem (17:30):
Yeah, I don't know For me.
Maybe, trista, you feel thesame way and a leader outside of
the military told me this onceand I use it to draw back to my
military experience we had amajor outage.
This is 10, 10 plus years ago,and you know I was a little bit
more frantic earlier on in mycareer and he just looked at me
and said nobody's, nobody'sdying.
You know, we're, we're, we'reall good you know we're, we're
(17:53):
all good.
So now I think you know whenwe're working with organizations
, big or small, you know it's.
I think it's a lot easier forus now to you know put these
items into boxes and move themstrategically around.
What's important now, what'simportant in the future?
Uh, so we can you know ifthere's a risk register maybe
that we're working with.
We can pick items three andseven and work on them first,
versus maybe one and two thataren't, you know, maybe as big
(18:14):
of an issue right now but couldbe in the future.
So being able to, you know,maybe dummy some things down
that aren't as big of a deal inthe moment, has been, has been
big, and I'm sure you know,maybe you're seeing the same
thing.
Trista Martinson (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, just when you all didthe audit report for us, after
kind of giving us a goodassessment, you know, and Eric's
like where do you want to start?
And I'm like you tell me, likewhat is the biggest risk?
I want to start at the mostvulnerable and go from there so
that we and for us, you know, asyou mentioned, we're a working
facility it is a dangerous placeto work or can be a dangerous
(18:49):
place to work.
So you know, there are lives atstake if we get it wrong on
certain areas.
So if we're not calculatingloads and input and outputs of
just the weight and volume andwhat's there, that becomes a
risk.
And so we, you know, we kind ofhave that risk there of
analyzing what that looks likeand it all comes back to do we
(19:09):
have a good hygiene on ournetwork.
Eric Brown (19:11):
Do you see the opportunity for more automation
in the space and maybe usingmachines that would maybe help
save human lives?
Trista Martinson (19:21):
Yes, I do.
I do think that there's roomfor more automation.
Some of the work is alwaysgoing to be manual, right?
So maintenance of machines,repair of equipment.
But there's opportunity inmaking our work easier so we can
do more.
Joshua Schmidt (19:36):
Just connecting several dots here with what's
going in the garbage.
Is there anything we shouldn'tbe putting in the trash from a
security perspective, or even acybersecurity perspective?
Trista Martinson (19:46):
No one's looking that close at the trash
and it's going to be ground upin stuff, so I think that that
is actually probably safe From aphysical security aspect.
Things that shouldn't go in thetrash are what's going to harm
our equipment or destroy ourcameras or other infrastructure.
Like lithium batteries no,they're great for technology,
(20:06):
they're in everything.
They can't go in the trash.
They start fires very easily.
Also, don't put them in yourjunk drawer at home because
you're going to have a fire atsome point.
So, just as a reminder, becauseeveryone's got their batteries
in their drawer, don't do thatwith lithium batteries.
They start fires.
We have a website that is got aton of information and they can
(20:26):
learn more.
They can even type in, you know, on the question of like where
do I take whatever information?
If it's a, where do I take mypropane tank?
And it will help you searchwhere to go.
Obviously, there's all kinds ofsearch engines, but they can
come directly to our website.
So just recyclingandenergyorg.
You can go on and takea look.
There's tons of information.
(20:46):
Again, you can watch thevirtual tour and watch the
robots we've been talking aboutand see firsthand.
You can sign up for a tour oryou can just shoot me an email
and I'm.
You know I love showing off ourfacility so people can come and
take a look.
Nick Mellem (21:00):
I think we need to corner the market for the
recycling and energy for themilitary.
Yeah, all of our trash intheater in Afghanistan.
Um, I don't know, maybe thatprobably can't be the best
method.
There's always something goingoff over there and the smell
will never leave.
Joshua Schmidt (21:16):
Yeah best part about it, nick, is you can go
visit the cats at the factory atthe uh there I can't wait to
visit all the cats at thefactory.
Trista Martinson (21:27):
We do have.
We have unionized cats at theplant, yeah, but Nick, actually
that's like a whole otherafter-hours podcast about them
the.
Joshua Schmidt (21:42):
Nick can name your cats for you, trista, mr.
Nick Mellem (21:45):
Meowgie.
Caddy Perry.
Caddy Perry, yep General Meow.
Sp.
Catty Perry.
Catty Perry, yep General Meow.
Joshua Schmidt (21:53):
Those are his cat's names.
Well, this is a great place toleave it for today.
You've been listening to theAudit presented by IT.
Nick Mellem (22:00):
Oh, there we go.
We're back in the militarysmoke bed.
Eric Brown (22:04):
You have been listening to the Audit presented
by IT Audit Labs.
We are experts at assessingrisk and compliance, while
providing administrative andtechnical controls to improve
our clients' data security.
Our threat assessments find thesoft spots before the bad guys
do, identifying likelihood andimpact, while our security
control assessments rank thelevel of maturity relative to
(22:27):
the size of your organization,thanks to our devoted listeners
and followers, as well as ourproducer, joshua J Schmidt.
Thank you.
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