Ever wondered what truly makes a Kickstarter campaign magnetic instead of merely functional? This episode pulls back the curtain on the art of author crowdfunding with someone who's witnessed thousands of campaigns from behind the scenes.
Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter, joins us to share insights that go far beyond the typical campaign advice. As she reveals, her role encompasses far more than just technical guidance – she's part publishing expert, part crowdfunding consultant, part life coach, and part cheerleader. This unique perspective allows her to spot the subtle differences between campaigns that simply meet goals and those that transform author careers by building genuine community.
We explore the most overlooked opportunities in author campaigns, from creatively engaging backers to designing rewards that deeply connect to your book's world. You'll discover why some authors set funding goals too low out of fear (and the potential consequences), how to strategically reveal stretch goals to maintain momentum, and why Kickstarter's algorithm rewards early engagement. Oriana also shares stunning examples of imaginative rewards that created unforgettable backer experiences, from custom yarn for knitting-themed novels to scented candles based on romance protagonists.
Whether you're contemplating your first campaign or looking to elevate your next one, this conversation will reshape how you think about crowdfunding as a cornerstone of your author career. Kickstarter isn't just a funding platform – it's a powerful community-building tool that can transform not just how your books are published, but how you connect with readers for years to come.
Are you an author at a crossroads, feeling stuck & unfulfilled in your author career? Do you know deep down it's time for a change, but you’re unsure of the next step?
The High Vibe Author is the only transformational membership designed specifically for authors like you—those who are ready to break free from limitations & step into the abundant life they deserve. Click here to learn more.
Indie publishing wasn’t built for neurodivergent minds—so let’s change that. Inside Author Revolution on Substack, I share exclusive insights on writing, publishing, and manifestation for ND authors. Plus, explore my neurospicy romcoms & urban fantasy worlds. Want to go deeper? Get access to Manifest Differently: The Deep End, my private podcast. Follow now: 👉 authorrevolution.org/substack
Thank you for tuning into the Author Revolution Podcast! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. For more insights and inspiration, visit Author Revolution. Don't forget to follow us on social media for updates and exclusive content:
Go forth and start your author revolution!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carissa Andrew (00:05):
Welcome to the Author Revolution Podcast.
I'm Carissa Andrews, author andyour host here to help indie
authors like you master mindset,harness manifestation and
embrace cutting-edge innovationto elevate your career.
Let's dive in.
Carissa Andrews (00:25):
Well, hi there, guys, and welcome back to the
author revolution podcast.
Okay, today I'm welcoming avery special guest, someone who
has been instrumental in shapingthe world of author
crowdfunding.
Ariana leckert is the head ofpublishing at kickstarter, and
she's been a guiding light forso many of us who are bringing
our creative visions to lifeoutside of those traditional
models.
She's not just about tickingthe campaign boxes, though.
(00:46):
She deeply understands what itfeels like to build something
magnetic, something that trulyresonates with our community.
And, as many of you know bythis point, by the time you're
listening to this podcastepisode, I recently wrapped up
my own Kickstarter campaign forWrite your Reality, and I can
say firsthand that Kickstarteris an art form all on its own.
So today we're going to gobeyond the basics and tap into
Oriana's incredible insightabout what makes campaigns not
(01:09):
just good but transformational.
So, oriana, welcome to theAuthor Revolution podcast.
Oriana Leckert (01:14):
Goodness gracious, what an incredible
intro.
I'm so happy to be here andjust like a true delight to get
to talk to you.
Carissa Andrews (01:21):
I know, right, I can't believe you haven't been
here before.
I was looking at things and I'mlike how did I not bring her
onto the show before?
Like what, that makes no sense.
Oh, the best time now.
I agree, I agree.
Well, I'm definitely thrilledto have you here, and at this
point, I think a lot of usauthors know who you are,
especially if we've gone to you,know different conferences, or
(01:41):
if we're thinking aboutKickstarter.
I know I've talked to a lot ofdifferent authors who are on
here and they've brought you uptoo, obviously.
So I'm curious, then, to gobeyond the basics and I want to
know what is your role that youplay at Kickstarter that most
authors wouldn't expect?
Like?
Are there any hidden workbehind the scenes that are just
surprising?
Oriana Leckert (02:00):
I think my job continues to surprise me every
day.
The version of this questionthat I often get is like what's
a typical day in your world?
And I'm like I still don't know.
I've been doing this job forsix years.
I still don't know what atypical day is, what to expect.
I mean, in all the ways I'm sotremendously lucky to have this
job.
I can hardly believe it.
(02:21):
You know I get really broadleeway to decide what my job is,
literally on a like day to day,week to week, event to event,
campaign to campaign basis.
So what would surprise people?
I mean, you know I have oftenjoked that there are like four
parts of my job, right, likepublishing industry expert,
crowdfunding consultant, lifecoach and cheerleader.
(02:41):
That's like tremendouslysurprising.
If you know me as a human, youwould probably guess that in an
emotional way I play acheerleader in all things.
And you know the life coach mysister is actually an accountant
and she said to me early on inher career you know I thought I
was doing this job because Ilike numbers, not because I like
therapy.
(03:01):
It's like shocking how muchemotion you know goes into,
especially around money,especially around community, all
of that.
So I don't know.
I mean, I'm not trying to hedge.
I think you know it issomething maybe people aren't as
aware of.
Is that like I also?
Like, I am the head ofpublishing, which is a fancy
title.
I'm also the entire publishingdepartment at Kickstarter.
(03:23):
Yeah, I mean, we also got ahead of comics, um.
So, like it is divided, I usedto run comics also and they
decided that I was doing, youknow, between like two and ten
people's jobs, so they splitthat up.
But you know, now you just dofive, that's fine yeah, well,
exactly exactly.
Um, you know.
So a not insignificant amount ofmy job involves explaining the
(03:44):
publishing industry to techpeople, just also sort of like
various ways of like liaising,like taking the knowledge that
like I know and I'm gatheringall the time and like bringing
it in, of like here's whatpeople in my world think and how
that would impact.
You know, I get to talk to ourengineers who are like building
all these new features and I getto say, like when you're
(04:06):
fulfilling a book campaign,that's really different than
when you're fulfilling a gadgetand like here are needs that my
people might have that youwouldn't have thought of.
We've had, like you know, along running issue around pen
names, which is not 100% uniqueto publishing but like pretty
close, you know, and so likehaving to.
You know, I get to talk to thetrust and safety team who are
(04:26):
making, who are balancing legalrequirements for the company
with sort of like what ourcreators needs look like in the
real world.
So yeah, I think that part of myjob, you know I also I get to
talk to everybody at the company, really Like I get to talk to
the marketing team about likewhich projects I think would
make sense for differentnewsletters.
I get to talk to the executiveteam about like how my category
(04:50):
functions and how Kickstarter issort of like thought of and
understood within the book world.
So I don't know, are yousurprised by any of that?
Would you count that surprising?
Carissa Andrews (04:59):
I think the thing that surprised me the most
was in the beginning, where yousaid life coach.
I'm like tell me more aboutthat, Like how did that happen?
Oriana Leckert (05:05):
Well, I think, in the same way, you know, like
a Kickstarter, running acampaign, you know it can be a
sort of like down and dirty,quick and easy, like let's just
toss this out and raise a couplegrand.
But, like, I do get to talk toa lot of people who, like, there
are various points in theircareer and we got to have like
deep conversations about, like,does this make sense for you
(05:27):
right now?
What are the ramifications, youknow, for you as an author, for
you as a human, for you maybeas a parent or a pet owner?
Like, how are you going tofulfill it and what's that going
to look like for your life andlike you know?
So all of those things, I meanI don't know that I'm truly
coaching people on like thewhole of their lives, but the
way that a campaign can fit in,you know that's not true for
(05:48):
everybody, but definitely forsome people.
Carissa Andrews (05:51):
Wow.
So do they reach out to youthen, Like how do they get in
touch with you for that?
Stuff, because for me I'm likethis was fun, just to like build
myself and then like getting totalk to you now is like just a
special bonus.
You know, yeah, I am veryaccessible.
Oriana Leckert (06:03):
I have a weird name.
I'm extremely online and like,if you find me, I will talk to
you.
This is not, I must say,something that necessarily my
bosses love, that I will likeget really in the weeds with
kind of anyone who asks.
I also, I suppose, have to be.
You know, I have to beprotective of my own time.
I do have like some ways inwhich I got to be like.
You know what?
Like at this stage, I justcan't.
I have to be protective of myown time.
(06:23):
I do have like some ways inwhich I got to be like.
You know what, like at thisstage, I just can't.
I can't give you more yet.
Like we have to wait until thisor that.
Here's some tips, here's someadvice, here's some educational
materials.
Like come back to me later.
Or, you know, if people likewill find me to be like I'm
having this like technicalsupport issue with my suitcase
(06:45):
campaign, that's just so faroutside of what I'm paid to do,
like I just really can't bethere for you on that one.
But yeah, you know that'sthat's good.
And also, like I'm in the world, as you know, like I'm at
conferences, I'm at gatherings,I'm at all kinds of so.
Like it isn't even necessarilythat someone comes to me and is
like I need to know whether thisis a thing that I should do
(07:07):
right now.
Like we joke, my team is calledthe outreach team and like
we're sort of always working,never working.
Like I cannot help but be at adinner party and like start
talking about like well, youknow, if you actually turned
that IP into a tarot deck, likea campaign could really help you
.
That.
Carissa Andrews (07:24):
IP into a tarot deck like a campaign could
really help you All of thosethings yeah.
I can so see that happening.
I think I do that myself whereit's like.
You must have high ideation inyour CliftonStrengths too.
Have you ever done those?
Oriana Leckert (07:39):
Somebody else just talked to me about
CliftonStrengths, I think, alsoon a podcast I haven't.
I don't know, but I think it'sthe same thing.
Carissa Andrews (07:48):
I think that you should look, because I bet
you high ideation is up there,because it's up there for me too
, and I'd be like, oh, we'd bespringing back and forth with
ideas left and right.
It'd be so cool.
Oriana Leckert (07:53):
I think I took exactly one step, which was I
Googled it, I clicked on a quiz,I did half of it and then it
was like, ready to give us theclifton strengths.
Carissa Andrews (08:03):
Like if you get the, what is that book called
strengths finder or pathstrengths finder?
Uh 2.0.
You get like a free test in theback of the book.
Oh, cool to be able to, to doit, but it's super fascinating
so it's been worthwhile for me.
Oriana Leckert (08:15):
I like it a lot I did that finally with
enneagram.
People talked to me aboutenneagrams for so long that I
finally bought a book, right.
I had been so skeptical until Iread the description of type
two and I was like, okay, allright, like that's a bit too
close, like did you write this?
Carissa Andrews (08:31):
I feel very called out right now.
Where did your love forpublishing come into play, like,
how did that all come together?
Oriana Leckert (08:38):
Golly, it's been the only most consistent thing
in my life since I was young.
I mean, I suppose when I was 15or 16, I thought I was going to
be the next Bernadette Peters.
I was like, obviously a bigsinger, like in high school, a
little bit into college, butlike, once, the sort of once,
that dream diminished.
I think I books have alwaysbeen the thing I've loved most
(09:00):
in the world.
You know, it's been the mostconsistent thing in my life.
Uh, I think you know my, my.
There's a photo of me somewheremy senior year of college.
I'm holding a fan of purpleenvelopes in which our resume is
printed on like I don'tremember glittery ink on blue
paper that I was sending forlike job applications to like
(09:21):
FSG and like new directions tobe like senior editor.
I was like obviously me at 21,I will be hired at the most
prestigious publishing company.
Yeah, none of that played outexactly, but my whole career has
been in and around thepublishing industry.
I have sort of a parallelcareer as an arts and culture
journalist, which happened byaccident and like has fed my
(09:42):
soul in many ways that I neverexpected.
But yeah, you know, this isjust what I've always done.
And again, like I never thoughtI was going to be working at
Kickstarter, this was much of mycareer.
I never thought I was going tobe doing what I was doing next,
but in so many unexpected ways.
This job is just such asynthesis of like, all the
things I like and all the thingsthat I am not always aware that
(10:02):
I'm good at.
So Isn't that amazing am?
Carissa Andrews (10:03):
not always aware that I'm good at.
So I don't know, isn't thatamazing?
I love how that comes together.
It's like when we don't try toforce a certain career or a
certain path, the right ones doreally kind of come to us
because, like, how would youlike Kickstarter?
I remember the first time I dida Kickstarter campaign was like
2013, like way back in the daywhen I was launching my first
book and I didn't know what Iwas doing and the first one
failed.
(10:24):
And then I realized what I didwrong with the first one and
like immediately just relaunchedand it was fine.
But it's like I wouldn't evenlooking back then, I would not
have anticipated the transitionand how it's changed and evolved
over the years, and like, so itmakes total sense to me, like
how you would come into thisplace with all of your gifts and
all the insights and all thethings that you have and just be
(10:44):
able to rock it.
It just makes total sense to me.
Oriana Leckert (10:46):
Well, thank you so much, and I suppose I should
call out my former boss whohired me, who is someone I had
known professionally for a longtime.
She was the head of publishingfor five or six years and I
think her name is Margot Atwell.
In fact, depending on when thiscomes out, she's got a live
campaign right now.
She's being published with theFeminist Press an anthology
(11:11):
called Absolute Pleasure, whichis authors, queer authors
writing about the Rocky HorrorPicture Show on the occasion of
its 50th anniversary and how itimpacted them, and all of this.
Anyway, I think that she issingularly responsible for, like
so much of the way thatKickstarter and publishing have
interacted over the years, so II very much consider that I'm
like continuing her work, umthat she laid all the groundwork
for me to be able to succeed inthe way that I have in this
(11:33):
role.
Carissa Andrews (11:33):
That is so awesome.
I love that.
So when is that campaignrunning?
Do you know?
By chance?
Great question.
Oriana Leckert (11:38):
It just launched this week.
I'm pulling it up right now.
Carissa Andrews (11:41):
Uh, it closes on May 22nd okay, yeah, so the
the podcast comes out the daybefore, so perfect.
So if you are listening to thispodcast, go go go check it out.
Oriana Leckert (11:51):
Yeah, I mean what it's.
You know it's so boring to saya url, but it's kickstartercom
slash projects, slash margotm-a-r-g-o-t.
Slash absolute dash pleasure.
Back her campaign now, yeah,that that sounds so awesome.
Carissa Andrews (12:05):
I'm definitely going to check that out and well
, obviously I get to do it nowbecause it's open already.
So good, oh, my gosh, okay.
So obviously you've seen somany campaigns come across your
desk.
When you feel that there's athis is a special one gut
instinct about a campaign, whatare some of the less obvious
signals that you pick up on?
Oriana Leckert (12:28):
Yeah, I mean, it was so kind of you to send me
these questions in advance, andso I read them and I was like,
wow, these are so much differentthan the questions I usually
get.
I could either deeply prepareor wing it, and so I chose the
latter.
So I didn't really.
I mean, I kind of thought itwould be more authentic to just
like answer you on the spot.
I mean, so let me let me re-sayit Some of the lesser known
elements of a campaign that Ithink is really special.
(12:50):
I would say one thing I noticedthat not everybody does is
whether a person has backedcampaigns.
This is not like a consistentsignal.
Sometimes you've got a separateaccount that you've been
backing from, or like maybe youknow like it doesn't always
matter and I don't know who elsenotices it that you've been
backing from or like maybe youknow like it doesn't always
matter and I don't know who elsenotices it.
But I think that tells a coupleof things.
It demonstrates that youunderstand the power of
community, that, like this isnot a, you know, necessarily
(13:14):
just a well that you go to, tolike take water, but that you're
also like putting your moneyand your time back into it.
It also shows me that you havelooked at and probably studied
or, at least on a subconsciouslevel, gotten a sense of the way
other people do this.
You know, I mean plenty ofpeople can run a Kickstarter in
a vacuum and, like you know,lots of people can do great that
(13:35):
way.
But, having seen what otherpeople do, I mean this is a line
and I say it all the time butlike, like I'm an expert in
Kickstarter because I stare atKickstarter all day long and you
can stare at Kickstarter allday long and you can find what
other people are doing projectslike yours, different from yours
.
Like I was just in a talk lastnight and somebody brought up
(13:56):
one of our big games campaignsthrow throw burrito and a way
that they did gosh, can Iremember?
Um, something like it?
A I don't remember all thedetails, but it was like if you
wrap yourself up in a blanketlike a burrito and post it on
Instagram, something happened.
Like, if a hundred people dothat, everybody gets an enamel
pin.
I don't know.
But like, well, that's a crazyidea.
Like that's a way I never wouldhave thought of structuring.
(14:19):
You know, like this kind oflike social proof and like kind
of in a hidden way, gettingpeople to spread the word for
you, you know anyway, I mean Idon't need to go too long on
this but like also like thecreative rewards are another
thing that like really, reallyreally thrill me, like that is
that's my most favorite thing tosee.
Like not necessarilycomplicated swag, or even I love
(14:41):
the special editions, but likeeven the wild, you know, a
velvet cover and like a stainedglass window in the slipcase.
Whatever I more get excitedabout, like the stuff that only
you could do.
That only makes sense for youraudience.
An example I always get aboutthis is like Penny Reed has um,
two very well-known romancenovelist.
Uh, she did a campaign for aseries called Knitting in the
(15:04):
City and she's got a buddy whoowns a yarn store and they made
a custom color of yarn that wasonly available during the
campaign.
Beautiful, wonderful.
I love that.
I love Willow Winters, also aromance novelist, an erotic
romance novelist.
In her early campaigns she madescene boxes where she wrote out
the sex scenes like a filmscript and included in the box
(15:26):
like the toys and theaccessories that are used, so
you could act out the scenesfrom your favorite books at home
on your own.
Like these are the things.
Oh, I just heard another onerecently.
Someone doing, I think KatSingleton doing a why Choose
romance, had candles that werescented after each of the
suitors.
Come on, come on, that's socool and like I think that
(15:49):
matters, because you're notwriting an erotic romance novel,
you don't have, you know, aheroine who knits, but there's
something like that in your workthat you could pull out and
make into a fun reward.
That's going to be exciting foryou, thrilling for your backers
, maybe deepen your bonds with,like other people in your
creative community.
(16:09):
Like I love that.
I love that stuff so much.
Carissa Andrews (16:11):
That is so cool .
Yeah, for like Write yourReality, I was trying to go much
more into like the quantummanifestation, helping people
understand that, but I'm in theprocess of like mapping out my
steamy rom-com, one that I'mgoing to be doing in July, and
so for me it's like learningabout all the different tools
and things that you can createthat are just yours.
That's been so much fun becausethen it's like it like, like
(16:33):
you just said, it's tied to whatyour IP actually is, but it
sparks it in a new way.
That's just so visceral thatyou're like you know, this was
all just in my head and nowthere's like this thing, not
just a book, but like a thingthat's physical, that's tied to
that thing.
Oriana Leckert (16:48):
It's wild, or even virtual.
I mean something as simple aslike here are 20 tracks that I
love to listen to while I write,or a book soundtrack, or like
here are five other authorswhose work inspired me so much
that I've made a nice pretty pdfof like the recommendations
that I have for them, or namingrights.
We see this all the time We'llname the dragon after your dog.
We'll name the villain afteryour mother-in-law, we'll name
(17:11):
the hero after your son.
I've seen also if you have likevery fancy friends.
You know this woman, emilyFlake, made a residency upstate
for like female identifyingcomic writers and so she's like
a New Yorker cartoonist.
She does have fancy friends.
I know one of them was likeJosh Gondelman will call your
mom on her birthday to wish hera happy birthday.
(17:32):
Like it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be a lot ofmoney, it doesn't even have to
be a lot of time.
It just has to be special andmeaningful to you and the people
who are supporting you that isso good.
Carissa Andrews (17:41):
I love that.
It kind in a sense touches onthe question that I was going to
ask you next where it's.
Like you know a lot of authors,we get hyper-focused on those
pricing tiers and like thedeliverables and what's going to
happen there.
But from what your experience,what's the biggest missed
opportunity that you see when itcomes to activating a backer's
emotional investment?
Oriana Leckert (18:00):
Just interacting with the backers directly.
It is wild to me.
Like this is.
I think one of the big thingsabout Kickstarter is that we're
really we help collapse the likedivisions between creator and
their supporters.
And like this doesn't have tobe tell all your backers to wrap
themselves in a burrito andmake an Instagram post about it.
Like it can be as simple aslike.
(18:20):
Before the campaign even startstalking to them, I'm working
out what things, what swag I'mgoing to do.
One nice piece of swag for thiscampaign.
Would you rather see apersonalized notebook or a tote
bag with art by this gorgeouscreator?
Just ask them.
Even if you always wanted tomake that notebook and that was
(18:40):
always your intention, the actof asking them is going to make
them feel included.
You can also say or C, tell mesomething else that I haven't
thought of.
Maybe enough people tell you todo a thing you hadn't even
considered yet that turns out tobe easy and fun and cool, and
you can interact with thebackers before the campaign,
during the campaign, after thecampaign, like all kinds of ways
(19:02):
.
So I think how do we interactwith them before the campaign?
Because I don't Throughwhatever avenues are already
available to you through your, Iguess.
Carissa Andrews (19:09):
I should say your supporters.
They are your yeah okay, I waslike you can do that in the
campaign.
It's like, okay, don't don'tbring me out there, because I
was like did I miss it?
Oriana Leckert (19:20):
What could you do?
You know I bet on your, on yourprelaunch page now that we've
expanded those, you couldprobably like have a quiz there
that says you know, uh, at me onInstagram or like DM me and
choose a, b or C on this quiz.
You know, like there's probablyways you couldn't do it through
the platform, you can't messagepeople yet, but I suppose you
kind of could though, like ifyou've already run a campaign
(19:41):
and it's, it's in a similargenre, you could comment or ask
those people who have alreadydone it 100% yeah that would
make sense
Carissa Andrews (19:48):
too Interesting .
That's so good.
There's so many different ways,like I've been right now with
the campaign for Write.
Your Reality is technicallystill going, but I've been
interacting and just droppinglike little updates and thank
you, you actually gave me theadvice to hold back on all the
stretch goals and just plunkthem in one at a time.
That was perfect.
That was so good, and so I'vebeen doing that.
It's just, it's so interesting.
(20:09):
But authors I don't know whatit is about authors on platforms
they're so like.
They're just like you.
Do you boo you?
Oriana Leckert (20:17):
ask a question, they hardly respond to you.
Well, there's I mean, I'm sureyou probably know there's like
an incredible Facebook group.
This is not Kickstarterofficial, but it's called
Kickstarter for Authors.
It's run by Anthea Sharp andThorne Coyle it is.
I dip into it a couple of timesa week just to see what people
are talking about.
They run an incredible,incredible community.
There's like over 7,000 authorswho are just asking each other
(20:40):
all day long where'd you getyour sprayed edges?
What are you thinking abouttariffs?
Will you review my campaign andgive me some critical feedback?
Like incredible, incrediblecommunity.
I I'm really just so dazzled bywhat they have over there.
Carissa Andrews (20:52):
That's where I got like the whole checklist.
Oriana Leckert (20:54):
I was looking for it, I'm like it's on my desk
.
Yep, yep.
Carissa Andrews (20:58):
So good.
Uh, I personally am not onFacebook anymore.
Oriana Leckert (21:01):
I have issues with that platform, but I do the
literal, only reason I go toFacebook is to check in on that
group.
I'm this.
There is internal conversationabout making custom discords for
Kickstarter and, like I, Idon't know I don't know actually
who runs discord and whether Iwould rather support them, but I
(21:24):
worry, I would like.
I would love it if that existedsomewhere that wasn't Facebook,
but I can only imagine like thedifficulty and the barriers to
entry of like transitioning acommunity of that size to
another platform.
So I understand that they'rethere for now and that's where I
find them and I just hope thatsomeday it becomes somewhere
(21:44):
else that's a little lesscompromised.
Carissa Andrews (21:45):
Right, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you right on that.
I haven't even though thecampaign's running I haven't
been back on there.
I probably should.
I haven't been on Facebooksince like January, so I'm like,
nope, just can't do it, I getit I respect that choice.
Yeah, it's been an interestingawakening with that one, that's
for sure.
I mean, I kind of felt thevibes of that coming for a while
(22:08):
, but it was.
It was very clear come thisearlier this year.
Okay, so if you could wave amagic wand and change how
authors use Kickstarter, whatnew creative norms would you
love to see?
Oriana Leckert (22:21):
I don't know.
I mean, I kind of feel likemaybe it doesn't say that great
of stuff about me, but like Ijust want to see what people do.
I don't necessarily like,that's where I'm.
Just I'm so surprised by thecreativity that authors bring to
it.
I don't know the one idea thatI continue to wish we.
(22:42):
I think that there would be away to do this technically that
kickstarter would have to helpwith.
But like I want to see somebodylike build a book tour via
kickstarter, like the way that Iwould love I've suggested this
internally before to have like,uh, kind of like conditional
rewards, of like.
If 10 people back at this tier,then you get it.
But in the absence of that,what I would like to see someone
(23:05):
do is like a tier that's like$500.
That's Columbus, ohio, and ifyou get 10 friends each of whom
to give you money and you put inthe $500, I'm coming to your
town and you could like mapyourself a tour in that way, I
think that would be really,really lovely, but yeah, I mean,
I don't know that there's.
(23:28):
This is like a kind of asideways answer to the question.
I love that special editionsare like the biggest thing and
the like majority of thecategory right now, but I don't
want that to have such anoversized impact that people
start to think that you can'tuse Kickstarter for just a
regular book or somethingdifferent.
It has to be, you know, thefanciest, most expensive special
(23:51):
edition possible.
So I mean, I wouldn't, I don'twant to change it.
I don't want any fewer specials.
I just also want people toremember there's plenty of other
stuff that you can do here.
I guess one magic wand that Iliterally am trying to wave.
I think this is okay to talkabout.
I would like for Kickstarter tobe a reporting entity to
Sarkana, who runs BookScan, sothat books sold on Kickstarter
(24:16):
can be counted toward salesfigures in the trade.
I'm working on that.
I have been working on that formultiple years.
It is so much more complicatedthan you could imagine, but
that's the magic wand that I'mholding and one day I will wave
it and it will work, that'ssuper interesting.
Carissa Andrews (24:30):
I wonder why is it so complicated?
Oriana Leckert (24:38):
We could spend most of the rest of our time on
this.
I'm trying to think of what'sthe shortest way to say it.
Part of the problem is thatKickstarter are not sales in a
traditional way.
The way that most peoplefulfill it looks to the retailer
.
It looks to BookScan, like bulkbuys which are, like, not
counted toward bestseller lists.
I mean, typically you arebuying 100 or 500 or a thousand
copies of your book to send itout to individual people, so the
(25:01):
burden falls on us todemonstrate to them why.
No, no, this is not, you know,somebody just like trying to
juice the numbers by buying athousand copies of their own
book.
There are individual sales, andso that would mean internally,
we would need to have signals oflike you know how many of the?
I mean, I think you've seenwe've shifted over the last year
(25:21):
or so from tier based rewardsto skew based rewards, so you
can actually now identify in acampaign literally the number of
books running through it,whereas before not every reward
had a book in it and some tiershad multiple.
But you know, like everythingwas just a lot more fuzzy, so
that's part of it.
Anyway, yeah, like a lot ofstuff needs to happen within our
(25:44):
tools that would be able tocollect the data properly.
And then we'd have to educateauthors on, like, what they're
doing and why.
You know, do you have an ISB?
So like yeah, there's all ofthat stuff.
I guess I'll say by the timethis comes out, we'll have like
made a lot of noise about this.
We're rolling out a whole suiteof post-campaign tools.
We're rolling out our ownnative pledge management system
(26:05):
in early May.
I think that that puts us asignificant stride closer to
being able to get this donebecause of the way, the type of
data we'll be collecting, theway we'll be collecting it once
we have those systems in place.
Carissa Andrews (26:20):
Oh, that makes sense.
Okay, that's really cool,interesting.
I can't wait to learn more.
My campaign ends in the middleof May, so I'm like we're going
to be playing around with someof these new tools.
Oriana Leckert (26:30):
I might have an email for you, yeah.
Carissa Andrews (26:31):
I would love to see.
I would love to see.
Okay, so are there any earlypatterns or creative experiments
that you're seeing that couldquietly transform how authors
approach crowdfunding over thenext few years?
Anything that's kind of liketrending that you're like I
didn't see this building.
Oriana Leckert (26:50):
No, I mean, I feel like the specials reallys
really did like, if we had beentalking a year or two years ago,
that would have been the thingI mean.
In fact, when I was workingunder Margo, she was pitching
that idea.
We pitched that idea to a lotof people and it didn't quite.
It didn't catch on enough thatit became a groundswell.
Um, what's the next thing?
(27:10):
Like that, I mean, I've beenlooking a lot at like lit rpg.
I think that there's a biggrowth area there.
I think, especially onkickstarter, like those books
are already like a way to gamifythe idea of reading and writing
and like kickstarter can begamified.
Our games created.
Our games community is massive.
Like that could help somecrossovers from like the
(27:33):
ravenous games backers into thepublishing landscape.
I'm also seeing a lot of sortof like IP crossover in a
similar vein.
Like you know, a tabletop boardgame based on a fantasy novel or
an RPG, or like Holly Black dida card game, sherilyn Kenyon
did a tarot deck, like stufflike that.
That's like reappropriatingstuff that is already yours,
(27:56):
that you already have, in a newformat for a new audience that
you can also.
Often, like you know, we'llraise so much money on this deck
, which has excellent margins,that can also fund, you know, a
deluxe audiobook version or likethe recovering of, like the
series, you know, like otherthings like that.
So I think yeah, I'm not sureif that's gonna what's the
(28:16):
question?
Quietly transform how authorsapproach crowdfunding.
I don't know.
Those are some things I'mthinking about.
Is that close enough toanswering your question?
Carissa Andrews (28:24):
definitely, definitely.
It's very interesting to mejust to see how, how authors are
using it.
Like I obviously, before I gotstarted, went through a lot of
the non-fiction campaigns justto make sure, like, okay, how
are they kind of laying thingsout, like, what kind of tiers
are they using?
Just because it's been, it'sbeen a hot minute, since I've
used Kickstarter personallyother than backing other
campaigns, and so for me it wasjust kind of like just taking a
(28:46):
look at, like how are they doing?
And I'm like, ooh, that's kindof a cool way to add this and
then layer that and and justlike for me, this first time is
kind of throwing everything outthere and seeing what sticks,
like, what are people actuallywanting in this situation?
Oriana Leckert (28:59):
And I think you know, most of many of my
examples tend to be from fiction, but I think like there are
versions of this for nonfiction,for example, workbooks.
I think Kickstarter is going tobecome more and more like a
really strong place forworkbooks, because much of the
rest of the book sellinginternet is decreasing them.
(29:20):
I think Amazon will no longerstock them because they're like
low content or something likethat.
So you know, if you're alreadywriting a nonfiction book with
any amount of like, you knowself-help or like exercises, or
how to making a companionworkbook, making companion
courses, you know again, justlike reformatting the content
you already got into a slightlydifferent version that would
(29:40):
either that would get people tolike double their support or
appeal to a different audiencethat wants to learn in a
different kind of way.
Carissa Andrews (29:47):
Oh sure, you could even like.
You just spark some ideas in mewhere I'm like, oh, I could do.
I could do something like thatwith my own stuff.
Come back with anotherKickstarter for the workbooks I
got with that.
How cool is that.
Carissa Andrew (29:57):
Absolutely, that's awesome.
I love it.
Carissa Andrews (29:59):
So are there any mistakes that you see
happening, not necessarily fromignorance, but from fear, Like
are they holding back or playingsmall, Like what do you see
there when it comes to authors?
Oriana Leckert (30:08):
Yeah, I mean I do.
I also think I sit from asomewhat lofty space, like it's
easy for me to pass judgment onwhether someone is afraid.
I mean, there's a sort of along standing debate within the
community of, like how to setyour funding goal.
You know that's obviously ahuge and crucial question.
There's a big current of folkswho set their funding goal,
(30:31):
especially for their first orsecond campaign, at $500, which
is out of fear and I get it.
I understand you want to makesure that you fund that's like
the most important thing, but itworries me.
I mean, kickstarter wasdesigned as all or nothing
funding so that you could do anhonest accounting of what you
needed and not come to the endand have to do a project without
(30:54):
enough money to really make it.
Like, if you ask for $500, Imean, if you're doing like a
simple print on demand paperbackrelease, maybe $500 is fine.
But if you're doing acomplicated you know special
edition, if you have lots ofrewards, all this other stuff,
like if you come to the end andyou have made a lot less than
your budget requires, you'rekind of in a bad spot.
(31:16):
You know it puts you worse offthan you were and, like you know
, I mean a sort ofcounterexample here.
I was actually hired atKickstarter to grow our
journalism category, and so oneof the early campaigns I worked
on was like a big.
It was a number of a number ofwriters who had like big
bloggers and big sort of likegawker in that community.
(31:36):
They were launching a newcollaboratively owned media
outlet, right, and they I can'tremember now, I think they came
with like a you know, like a$90,000 goal and I was like,
look, I could not believe morestrongly in what you guys are
doing, but that's really highfor a journalism campaign on
Kickstarter.
Like are doing, but that that'sreally high for a journalism
campaign on Kickstarter.
Like, are we really comfortablewith that?
And the founder she said youknow, I want, when people land
(32:00):
on this page, for them toimmediately see the ambition of
what we're doing.
Like, I don't want to trim mysails, I don't want to, like you
know, I want everyone to knowthis is what journalism costs,
this is what it means to likestart an endeavor like this, and
I want that to be clear fromthe start.
And she funded, they made it.
So you know, as I just just to,like you know, walk myself back
(32:22):
a little bit.
I don't want to encouragepeople to raise their goals so
high that they fail and thenthey blame me about it.
I'm not trying to do that, Ijust I think that's sort of the
biggest thing that people arescared.
They're so scared of notfunding that they're not
necessarily considering theramifications of funding too low
.
Carissa Andrews (32:42):
What are the ramifications?
Because for me, when I did thisparticular one, I said at 500,
but it was a recommendation onAnthea's book.
If you haven't done aKickstarter for a while to set
it there, I'm like that's fine.
It wasn't out of fear, but itwas definitely out of like I
don't know where to start.
So we're going to startsomewhere.
Why not Right?
Oriana Leckert (32:57):
So yeah, well, and I don't like being against
Anthea.
I think Anthea is brilliant andwonderful and I, just, like I
said, you know, depending onwhat it is that you're making
and what your fixed costsactually are, if, if you end the
campaign with like less moneythan you need, but now you've
made all these promises abouttrim size and bells and whistles
and reward types and thingslike that, you're just maybe
(33:25):
you're fine to fund it.
You know to cover the rest byyourself, but maybe you're going
to wind up trying to cutcorners, trying to, like you
know, produce an inferiorproduct.
Like disappoint yourself,disappoint your backers, like
all of those are worse outcomes,I think, than if you aim too
high, didn't get there and then,exactly as you did, we're like
well, I learned a lot of lessons.
I'm going to change the way I'mdoing things and try again and
like hope to get where I need tobe at that point.
Carissa Andrews (33:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, for me it was really easy.
Like I have a lot of digitalstuff in the background, so I
knew that my funding would befine at 500.
Like that's not a big deal.
I knew that would be no issuethere whatsoever.
But my paperback books in thecampaign are just normal, like
I'm not, I'm not trying to gospecial edition yet, I'm just
trying to get them out.
This is a new edition for thefirst book and so it's like
(34:07):
second books coming out.
We'll see how it goes.
And it's just been kind of funto play around with the concept
again because I've seen youspeak so many times and then
I've seen a lot of the panelsand you know other authors who
are who have been doing it.
I'm like you know what I feel,like now's the time to give it a
try and just kind of play withit.
So for me it was definitely alet's just play with it and see
what happens and see if I needto adjust, like going forward.
(34:29):
So this gives a lot of insight.
Oriana Leckert (34:30):
Thank you.
Yeah Well, and it sounds likeyou made the perfect choice for
you.
So again, I'm not out heretrying to get people to question
their convictions.
Carissa Andrews (34:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it's just reallyinteresting.
I like it.
I like being able to hear thetake on it from what you're
seeing and what a lot of otherauthors are doing, and it just
helps a lot to be able to know.
You know where do you fall.
Where do you fall on thatspectrum?
It's really neat, Okay, so inthe publishing world we're often
told that we have to build anaudience first.
Do you think Kickstarter canflip that dynamic, Like build an
(34:59):
audience through the campaigninstead of the other way around?
Oriana Leckert (35:02):
I think some of that is possible.
I think if you were running atabletop board game campaign,
you can come in with virtuallyno existing audience and there
are such rabid supportersdesperate to back every single
game that launches.
You might be able to create anaudience from almost nothing.
I would say that's not true.
(35:23):
Right now, in the publishingcategory, what we see is that an
average publishing campaign isgetting about 30% of their
backings from the Kickstarterecosystem.
As you know, we track that inyour dashboard so you can see
the work that you're doingversus the work that is like our
value prop, like what we arebringing to you.
(35:43):
So I usually you know 30%that's not nothing.
That's pretty excellent to growyour audience by 30%, but it is
definitely not everything.
Like if you have I.
I mean it also depends what itis that you're trying to do.
If you have a very modestcampaign with low goals, you
could kind of come here fromnothing.
But tech startup works best inpublishing by having an
(36:03):
amplifying effect like we.
Our algorithm works onattention.
You need you know if it seesthat a lot of people are
clicking, backing, commenting,following, etc.
That's a signal that like oh,people like this, let's show it
to if it sees that a lot ofpeople are clicking, backing,
commenting, following, et cetera.
That's a signal that like oh,people like this, let's show it
to more and more people.
If you don't have that earlysignal, if you can't bring
anybody on board, it's not solikely that you'll get the
(36:27):
visibility to like completelyfund from, just you know, native
Kickstarter backers.
Carissa Andrews (36:33):
That makes total sense.
It's kind of like you knownative Kickstarter backers.
That makes total sense.
It's kind of like you know whenyou go to TikTok and if you
don't get any people watching orliking your commenting in the
first like whatever five, tenminutes, it's very likely that
that video is not going to govery far because you don't have
the kind of traction to get itmoving.
So that makes total sense.
That's interesting.
Okay.
So what's something surprisingthat can catch Kickstarter's eye
(36:53):
, something that authorswouldn't necessarily realize
mattered?
Oriana Leckert (36:56):
Yeah, I mean Kickstarter's eye.
I suppose there's that's notexactly a monolithic thing, I
don't.
I don't think authors don'trealize that it matters, but I
think your project image isreally important.
You know it's.
I I would say in the six yearsfrom when I got here to now,
people know this lesson muchmore clearly.
(37:17):
I remember when I wasinterviewing for the job I mean
again, I was looking atjournalism projects but I was
like what are these people doing?
None of this is appealing atall.
I would not back that up.
But yeah, I think you know agood piece of advice is like
look at your campaign on yourphone.
All you're going to see is thetitle, subtitle, project image,
maybe like one sentence fromyour campaign story.
(37:39):
And I think you want to knowthat with just those elements
you've like really enticedpeople.
You know that like your projectimage is like bright and
colorful.
It's not overlaid with like somuch text that when it's little
is going to be hard to read.
You've got like someinteresting keywords in your
like main elements, maybe alittle, you know, a teaser, as
(38:02):
you're like opening paragraphs,because that's all you're going
to get from a lot of people.
It's, in fact, more than you'llget.
Many people will just see theproject image, scroll by on a
search page or, you know, on asocial platform or something
like that.
So, like, just really reallymake sure that those elements
working together are going tolike grab people and draw them
(38:22):
right in and that doesn't meanto do too much with your project
image.
That's the other thing that Isee with, like, the project
image will have, you know, thecover image, a mock-up of like a
book, a paperback, a hardcoverand a tablet, also the tagline,
like you know, written across it, like so and like a you know
it's all.
(38:43):
So not much that's confusing.
That will have the oppositeeffect, I think, like a
beautiful photo, like the imageon your cover, like your book
mock-up, sitting in aninteresting with a border, like
I don't know things, like I meanas ever look at what other
people are doing and figure outwhat your version of that is.
You know, you can scroll asearch page and just see, like
(39:04):
well, which are the ones thatjump out to me.
What can I replicate about that?
For my work?
Carissa Andrews (39:08):
That makes total sense.
Okay, so this is a completeside note question, because what
you said just kind of made methink of something when you're
talking about SEO and makingsure that you know the words and
the language and stuff, so notnecessarily the image is
enticing and makes sense.
I know for me I used ChatGPT tobe able to try to like hone in
really onto, like what are thewords that are going to matter
most for my campaign?
And I know that you guys havean AI.
(39:30):
Oh gosh, what's the thingcalled the AI thing?
Oriana Leckert (39:32):
I know that you guys have an AI.
Oh gosh, what's the thingcalled the?
Carissa Andrews (39:34):
AI thing.
Yeah, the disclosure at thebottom, and I know that from my
experience it's not an issue touse AI, you just need to
disclose it right.
I had a friend who I think shedid some AI images and her
campaign got like shut down andthen she because she just hadn't
checked the box- she didn'trealize that her images is on
the campaign, and so for me, I'mlike that's so cool that you
don't number one.
(39:54):
You don't mind that we're usingAI to be able to help us to
write better copy, because Ithink a lot of authors were good
at telling stories or were goodat doing that sort of thing,
not so great at beingcopywriters, yeah.
So what is your personal takeon that whole thing?
Should authors be paying moreattention?
Do they make sure they clickthat button?
(40:15):
What has to happen there?
Oriana Leckert (40:17):
Yeah, I mean, I actually I will politely decline
from sharing my personalopinions about AI.
I don't think that helpsanybody.
I will say I do feel good aboutKickstarter's policy because to
me, it's one of radicaltransparency.
Like I, I think what mattersKickstarter is about connecting
you with your supporters, and soif your use of AI is enhancing
(40:40):
your product in a way that isgoing to make your supporters
really happy and they're goingto be delighted to back it
because of or despite that, Ithink that's wonderful, like we
are in the business ofsupporting creativity in all of
its forms, so I do really likethat.
I mean, I yeah, I said I wasgoing to refrain I have concerns
, you know, about the sort oflike we are to me, the sort of
(41:03):
like fundamental sin of AI,which is like that it's built
largely on stolen creative work.
I don't think we can fix thatnow.
You know like that happened,and so that's that's what gives
me varying degrees of pausedepending on which systems, in
which ways, people are using it.
But again, this is not about me, this is about you and your
audience, and so, yes, I thinkeveryone should use that
(41:25):
disclosure, both so as not torun afoul of like Kickstarter's
rules, but also so that nobodyis surprised, you know.
You know you don't want yourbackers to think you're doing
things one way and then find outthat it's another way and feel
tricked or, you know, misled.
So, yeah, I think absolutely.
And you know, if you're usingAI, be proud of it, exactly as
(41:45):
you just were.
I think there's nothing wrongwith that.
Nobody should be doing it likefurtively or strangely.
Talk about what you're doing,why you're doing it, how it has
helped you, and let yoursupporters be on board with that
.
Carissa Andrews (41:57):
Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it's really,
it's really important that youdo pay attention to that too.
So, like, if you're whetherit's your images, or whether
you're using it for, you know,marketing texts or whatever it's
not you're not going to getpenalized for it.
It's just just a disclosure andthat's all it is.
It's so good.
Oriana Leckert (42:11):
It would be more .
You would get more penalized ifyou didn't disclose it and then
people found out later and feltlike you had not been truthful
with them.
Carissa Andrews (42:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Okay, so what energetic shiftshave you noticed in campaigns
that either lose momentum orcome roaring back even stronger?
Oriana Leckert (42:27):
Yeah, I think this question is broadly about
the sort of like plateau periodin the middle which happens to
everyone.
Even Brandon Sanderson had someperiods where it was a little
slower.
He was only earning a couplemillion dollars a day, right,
yeah.
So what do I have to say aboutthat?
I mean, I think people shouldplan for it, be aware that
(42:50):
that's going to happen and likethat's okay, it's not your fault
, but really think about whatyou can do during that time to
keep the momentum going.
We touched briefly on the ideaof stretch goals.
This is a common mistake.
I see that people lay out alltheir stretch goals right on the
page.
I can see if you're like reallyexcited about those things.
You just want everyone to know,but I think you rob yourself of
(43:11):
the opportunity of reviewingthem, announcing them, talking
about why and getting peopleexcited.
That's a great thing to doduring that plateau period.
You know telling people, hey,remember this.
Like guess what?
We've gotten to this point?
We're going to do this otherthing, help us get there, or
send them quizzes like we talkedabout.
Would you like us to do this orthat?
You know?
Blah, blah, blah.
(43:31):
That is not to say, by the way,you should not thoroughly
budget for and understand allthe stretch goals you're
offering before you launch.
You must do that, but you don'tneed to tell everybody
everything when you first start.
I'm trying to think of someother tactics I've seen.
One cute thing that I used tosee more in journalism is like
(43:52):
if you have someone with deeppockets who is going to happy to
invest $1,000 or $5,000 in yourcampaign, you can sort of rig
up a little DIY matchingcampaign in the midst of your
campaign.
You can say, for the next threedays, an angel investor will be
matching all donations up to$1,000 or $5,000 or whatever to
(44:12):
give people that like real goodfeeling of like your money is
counting double at this moment.
I think that's a cute thing.
You know, the middle period isa great time to go on somebody's
wonderful podcast or like getyou know on an Instagram live or
a TikTok feature or reviewsomething like that, which are
also, you know, ways togalvanize other audiences and
(44:34):
kind of bring them to your work.
So I don't know I'm not sure ifI'm still answering this
question in the way that youasked it, but make a lot.
You know, think hard about whatyou can do, um, to kind of keep
the enthusiasm going,counteract that bit of a slump
or, you know, to come roaringback in your final week, uh,
when the sort of now or nothing,now or never, all or nothing,
(44:55):
do or die really kicks in andyou can like marshal your
efforts there do you see like a,an organic surge at the end
from kickstarter's perspective,like people who have been
watching for a while and thenthey're finally like, oh crap,
it's time.
Totally, yeah, people.
Also, all of your followers,will get a Kickstarter email 48
hours before the campaign ends,and I believe that people who
(45:16):
have been following since thepre-launch phase will get
another reminder email at theeight hour mark before you close
.
And also, you know you're,exactly as you said, at the
eight hour mark before you close.
And also you know, exactly asyou said, like your marketing
ramps up, your outreach getsmore high.
Key, this is it.
This is your last chance.
Yep, yeah, that does tend todrive backings, for sure.
Carissa Andrews (45:34):
Yeah, for sure.
I like that a lot.
Okay, where are we at with time, because I have a special thing
I'd love to do with you, but Idon't want to keep you too long,
are you cool?
Like we could do it rapid fire?
I have this thing, like a quicklittle segment that I would
love to throw some fictionalKickstarter setups and, just
like you, give like a reallyquick description of, like, what
you would want to do to improveit, if you're, if you're, I
love it, I love it.
Oriana Leckert (45:54):
That sounds so fun, okay cool.
Carissa Andrews (45:55):
Okay, so the first one.
You see a memoir author runningtheir first Kickstarter.
They're offering one-on-onecoaching calls as the reward.
Oriana Leckert (46:06):
What should they do to improve that?
I mean, I kind of love that,but also you can sort of like
fragment it.
You could do group sessions,you could do sort of like.
You know other kinds of likeinteractive elements.
Wait, so what'd you say?
It was a memoirist In thisexample.
What's the memoir sort of about?
Carissa Andrews (46:24):
You don't get that information.
It's just a memoir authorrunning their first Kickstarter.
Oriana Leckert (46:27):
Yeah, I mean if that fits with the theme of the
memoir.
I mean, if it's a memoir likeyou know how I cleaned up my hot
mess of a life, then people onlike you know recovery or like
things like that, I think thattotally makes sense.
If it's a memoir of like youknow learning to cook better, I
mean, I don't know, that couldanyway, yes, great.
(46:48):
I think that's fine.
I think one-on-one coachingsessions are great, provided
that you have a skill set thatpeople might want to be coached
and buy.
Yeah.
Carissa Andrews (46:57):
Yeah, okay, okay.
So how about this one?
An author launching their firstbook in a fantasy series is
announcing six ambitious stretchgoals before the campaign, even
before the funds are hittingtheir baseline.
Perhaps this was based off ofme.
Oriana Leckert (47:13):
You know, yeah, I mean I would, as we've
discussed, certainly I wouldkeep those, hold those back.
I think also, especially for afirst time creator, it can just
confuse people about like well,how much money do you need to
like do this whole thing?
Also, it might shake people'strust if you know you like are
new at this and you're like anemerging writer and you don't
have a strong audience yet.
(47:34):
Like if you're coming here for$50,000 and you know I click on
your campaign and you have sixbackers, that doesn't make me
feel like super great.
That like you're there and thatyou know and also kind of like
do you understand what kind oftime and effort it's going to
take to like really make thisstuff you know.
So, yeah, I would say all ofthat.
Those are not excellent signals, Not again to say that it can't
(47:56):
be done.
I think Brandon Sanderson'sfirst campaign weighs $10
million.
Sherilyn Kenyon raised amillion bucks her first time
here.
Cassie Clare $10 million.
Sherilyn Kenyon raised amillion bucks her first time
here.
Cassie Clare similarly.
Carissa Andrews (48:11):
But you know we can't all be Brandon or Cassie
or Sherilyn.
Yeah, they could have built-inaudiences there that are fairly
large.
Okay, real quick question onthose stretch goals, though that
just reminded me.
When you announce the stretchgoals, do you recommend having
them lower on the page, like asyou're building the page, or
should they go up at the topwhen the campaign is running?
Lower on the page, like asyou're building the?
Oriana Leckert (48:25):
the page or should they go up at the top
when the campaign is running?
That's not something we could ab test, to be honest.
So I don't have like a stronguh, I don't think.
I think I would say, yeah, Idon't have a strong preference.
If you do decide to put them atthe top when the campaign is
ending, I'd move it back downagain because, remember, people
will keep landing on that pageforever and if the first thing
(48:46):
they see is about stretch goals,that might be like too inside
baseball for them to reallyunderstand what's happening here
.
But I certainly see the wisdomof putting it at the top while
the campaign is running.
That makes sense.
Carissa Andrews (48:57):
That makes sense.
Okay, last one, An indie authorwith a gorgeous campaign
visuals, well-writtendescriptions, professional video
, all that stuff but has almostno backer interaction or
community building during thecampaign itself.
Oriana Leckert (49:14):
What should they do to get that going?
Yeah, interact, talk to yourbackers.
I'm always shocked when I see,especially like fairly campaigns
that are going fairly well thathave no backer updates, like
why would you not take advantageof that line to your biggest
fans?
That's crazy, yeah.
So I mean, what would I tellthem?
Do the thing?
Yeah, designed to help youinteract with your audience,
(49:35):
interact with them.
Why would you relinquish thatincredible, amazing opportunity?
Carissa Andrews (49:40):
So good.
Or like to reach out, like yousaid, to other people's campaign
, or not.
Oriana Leckert (49:44):
Well, I guess other people's campaigns too.
Carissa Andrews (49:46):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, I reached out to RussellNolte.
I think he has a campaignthat's running right now.
Oriana Leckert (49:50):
That's very similar to mine.
I love his how to thrive as anartist.
Yes, I totally back that.
Carissa Andrews (49:55):
That was so good let me see if he hasn't
responded to me though I did itthrough the kickstarter like
platform, and he has notresponded um, so two things.
Oriana Leckert (50:05):
You can email me and I will.
I'll send it to him and be likebuddy.
What?
What are we doing here?
I'm, yeah, I've known russellfor a while.
I would love that, but I'llalso say just to the listeners
this campaign is live throughjune 8th, so it will still be up
when you are listening to this.
Probably, how to thrive as awriter in a capitalist dystopia
this is russell.
Something like his 45thcampaign.
(50:27):
That's crazy.
Yeah, he's.
I'm a huge fan of that I am tooso good.
Carissa Andrews (50:32):
I saw that because it was obviously being
recommended with mine too.
I was like what is this?
I need this book nice.
Oh yeah, I'm a backer,absolutely me too okay, two more
questions and then we'll wrapup here today.
So if you could, could talk toan author that's standing at the
starting line.
Maybe they're terrified, butthey're ready.
What would you say, not just tocoach them, but to recode the
(50:52):
relationship with visibility andasking for support through?
Oriana Leckert (50:55):
Kickstarter.
See, you know that I'm a lifecoach.
You've phrased this question ina way to, like, exemplify.
Carissa Andrews (51:01):
I must have, I must have?
Oriana Leckert (51:04):
Okay, well, so first of all, I do tell,
especially first-time authors ifyou are equal parts thrilled
and terrified when you pressthat launch button, you are
probably doing it right.
I'm not here to say you couldnot have any fear around this.
It is very healthy and naturalto have it, know this already.
But, like when I certainly whenI started here, there is like a
(51:24):
persistent belief thatKickstarter is akin to like
charity, which that's like noshade, to GoFundMe and like
other platforms that aredesigned in that way.
But like you're not begging formoney.
When you run a Kickstartercampaign, the reframe that I've
been preaching forever is you'reinviting people to join you on
a creative journey.
(51:45):
You're taking this crazyjourney and you're saying, like,
let's do this together.
Hey, you know what we need moreof in life?
Community collaboration, risingtides, lifting all the boats.
Like you're going to getrewarded along the way for being
an early adopter of like mycreative heart and helping me to
like make this thing together.
(52:07):
I love that as a concept and ifyou can communicate that, you
know, if you can believe that inyour own heart and communicate
it to your supporters, how arethey not going to be so excited
to get on board?
Carissa Andrews (52:21):
I love that.
I think that it's such a hugereframe because it's so
different from what the indieauthor like main setup and the
way that everything has been runfor so long in that dystopian
capitalistic society.
It's been trained like.
It's been training us for avery long time now, since I mean
it's not super long becauseindie authorship is only what?
15-ish years old, but stillit's like we're sitting at this
(52:44):
point where it's like we wantthat collaboration, we want the
community, and I love that.
This is like how we get toshift not only our relationship
to our readers, but like ourrelationship to receiving for
the cool thing that we justcreated.
Totally, I love that it's sogood.
Okay, ariana.
Where can listeners go to findout more about you and about
Kickstarter for authors?
Oriana Leckert (53:28):
at Oriana B-K-L-Y-N on, I think, all the
platforms, but I'm a lot lessresponsive on them than I used
to be, just like protecting myown creative hearts.
You know, kickstarter has a tonof resources for creators.
We actually just rolled out awhole new creator resource hub,
kickstartercom slash creators.
Tons of like education andworksheets.
There's also a publishingcreator tips page.
(53:48):
I'm just going to get you thatlink Kickstarter dot com slash
creators slash publishing.
That's got many videos of myface doing talks much like this
one.
Also like articles there'sthere's a budgeting article
written by Russell Nolte, who wejust talked about.
There's an article by DanaClare, who inkfluence about the
allure of special editions andwhy you might do one here.
(54:10):
There's stuff about planningyour audience, about building
your mailing list, um, all sortsof things like that.
So and you know we've alreadytalked about I mean, obviously
you should be listening topodcasts like this one.
You should be, uh, on the oh I,I shifted.
I'm no longer answering whereto find me, I'm just more
answering how to find resourceson Kickstarter yeah, it's both,
it's all good join that Facebookgroup.
(54:32):
Find a discord community, find areddit thread like talk to
other people.
Carissa Andrews (54:36):
Um, yeah, yeah, I think that's go to
conferences and say hi, oh, forsure, if you ever see me in the
wild, please come say hi.
Oriana Leckert (54:44):
I've had people email me and be like we were
both at the same thing last week, but I didn't want to bother
Bother.
It is both my job and mypleasure.
You can tell I like to talk topeople.
It feeds my soul, so pleasehelp me.
Carissa Andrews (54:57):
Help you I can say from experience.
She always has a line out thedoor wanting to say hi to her.
Oriana Leckert (55:02):
So definitely take advantage.
Carissa Andrews (55:05):
It's so good.
Well, Oriana, thank you so muchfor being here today.
I really appreciate your timeand your energy and enthusiasm.
It's so much fun to talk to you.
Oriana Leckert (55:13):
This has been such an absolute delight.
Carissa Andrews (55:18):
I really appreciate you having me over.
I want to extend a huge thankyou to Oriana Lickert for
joining me today.
Her insights into Kickstarter'secosystem, especially for
authors and creators like us,are so valuable and, honestly,
this conversation reallycouldn't have come at a more
aligned time.
As you may know, I recentlywrapped up the Kickstarter
campaign for Write your Reality,my latest nonfiction book that
(55:38):
is blending quantummanifestation with author
strategy.
It's not just a book, it's amovement for authors who think
differently, feel deeply and areready to call in aligned
success without hustle.
And guess what?
The journey isn't over.
If you missed the campaignduring its live run, you can
still sneak in the back door.
Late pledges are open throughmid-June and that means you
(56:00):
still have time to grab some ofthe incredible bundles,
meditations and even lifetimeaccess to courses and
memberships that I've builtspecifically for authors like
you.
Just head over toauthorrevolutionorg forward
slash kickstarter to check outthe campaign or if you want the
full behind the scenes scoop onthis podcast episode head over
to authorrevolutionorg.
Carissa Andrew (56:20):
Forward slash 272.
Carissa Andrews (56:23):
Again, thank you so much for listening and
remember you're not just here towrite books, you're here to
write your reality.
Carissa Andrew (56:31):
So go forth and start your author revolution.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Author Revolution Podcast.
I'm Carissa Andrews, author andyour host here to help indie
authors like you master mindset,harness manifestation and
embrace cutting-edge innovationto elevate your career.
Let's dive in.
Carissa Andrews (00:25):
Well, hi there, guys, and welcome back to the
author revolution podcast.
Okay, today I'm welcoming avery special guest, someone who
has been instrumental in shapingthe world of author
crowdfunding.
Ariana leckert is the head ofpublishing at kickstarter, and
she's been a guiding light forso many of us who are bringing
our creative visions to lifeoutside of those traditional
models.
She's not just about tickingthe campaign boxes, though.
(00:46):
She deeply understands what itfeels like to build something
magnetic, something that trulyresonates with our community.
And, as many of you know bythis point, by the time you're
listening to this podcastepisode, I recently wrapped up
my own Kickstarter campaign forWrite your Reality, and I can
say firsthand that Kickstarteris an art form all on its own.
So today we're going to gobeyond the basics and tap into
Oriana's incredible insightabout what makes campaigns not
(01:09):
just good but transformational.
So, oriana, welcome to theAuthor Revolution podcast.
Oriana Leckert (01:14):
Goodness gracious, what an incredible
intro.
I'm so happy to be here andjust like a true delight to get
to talk to you.
Carissa Andrews (01:21):
I know, right, I can't believe you haven't been
here before.
I was looking at things and I'mlike how did I not bring her
onto the show before?
Like what, that makes no sense.
Oh, the best time now.
I agree, I agree.
Well, I'm definitely thrilledto have you here, and at this
point, I think a lot of usauthors know who you are,
especially if we've gone to you,know different conferences, or
(01:41):
if we're thinking aboutKickstarter.
I know I've talked to a lot ofdifferent authors who are on
here and they've brought you uptoo, obviously.
So I'm curious, then, to gobeyond the basics and I want to
know what is your role that youplay at Kickstarter that most
authors wouldn't expect?
Like?
Are there any hidden workbehind the scenes that are just
surprising?
Oriana Leckert (02:00):
I think my job continues to surprise me every
day.
The version of this questionthat I often get is like what's
a typical day in your world?
And I'm like I still don't know.
I've been doing this job forsix years.
I still don't know what atypical day is, what to expect.
I mean, in all the ways I'm sotremendously lucky to have this
job.
I can hardly believe it.
(02:21):
You know I get really broadleeway to decide what my job is,
literally on a like day to day,week to week, event to event,
campaign to campaign basis.
So what would surprise people?
I mean, you know I have oftenjoked that there are like four
parts of my job, right, likepublishing industry expert,
crowdfunding consultant, lifecoach and cheerleader.
(02:41):
That's like tremendouslysurprising.
If you know me as a human, youwould probably guess that in an
emotional way I play acheerleader in all things.
And you know the life coach mysister is actually an accountant
and she said to me early on inher career you know I thought I
was doing this job because Ilike numbers, not because I like
therapy.
(03:01):
It's like shocking how muchemotion you know goes into,
especially around money,especially around community, all
of that.
So I don't know.
I mean, I'm not trying to hedge.
I think you know it issomething maybe people aren't as
aware of.
Is that like I also?
Like, I am the head ofpublishing, which is a fancy
title.
I'm also the entire publishingdepartment at Kickstarter.
(03:23):
Yeah, I mean, we also got ahead of comics, um.
So, like it is divided, I usedto run comics also and they
decided that I was doing, youknow, between like two and ten
people's jobs, so they splitthat up.
But you know, now you just dofive, that's fine yeah, well,
exactly exactly.
Um, you know.
So a not insignificant amount ofmy job involves explaining the
(03:44):
publishing industry to techpeople, just also sort of like
various ways of like liaising,like taking the knowledge that
like I know and I'm gatheringall the time and like bringing
it in, of like here's whatpeople in my world think and how
that would impact.
You know, I get to talk to ourengineers who are like building
all these new features and I getto say, like when you're
(04:06):
fulfilling a book campaign,that's really different than
when you're fulfilling a gadgetand like here are needs that my
people might have that youwouldn't have thought of.
We've had, like you know, along running issue around pen
names, which is not 100% uniqueto publishing but like pretty
close, you know, and so likehaving to.
You know, I get to talk to thetrust and safety team who are
(04:26):
making, who are balancing legalrequirements for the company
with sort of like what ourcreators needs look like in the
real world.
So yeah, I think that part of myjob, you know I also I get to
talk to everybody at the company, really Like I get to talk to
the marketing team about likewhich projects I think would
make sense for differentnewsletters.
I get to talk to the executiveteam about like how my category
(04:50):
functions and how Kickstarter issort of like thought of and
understood within the book world.
So I don't know, are yousurprised by any of that?
Would you count that surprising?
Carissa Andrews (04:59):
I think the thing that surprised me the most
was in the beginning, where yousaid life coach.
I'm like tell me more aboutthat, Like how did that happen?
Oriana Leckert (05:05):
Well, I think, in the same way, you know, like
a Kickstarter, running acampaign, you know it can be a
sort of like down and dirty,quick and easy, like let's just
toss this out and raise a couplegrand.
But, like, I do get to talk toa lot of people who, like, there
are various points in theircareer and we got to have like
deep conversations about, like,does this make sense for you
(05:27):
right now?
What are the ramifications, youknow, for you as an author, for
you as a human, for you maybeas a parent or a pet owner?
Like, how are you going tofulfill it and what's that going
to look like for your life andlike you know?
So all of those things, I meanI don't know that I'm truly
coaching people on like thewhole of their lives, but the
way that a campaign can fit in,you know that's not true for
(05:48):
everybody, but definitely forsome people.
Carissa Andrews (05:51):
Wow.
So do they reach out to youthen, Like how do they get in
touch with you for that?
Stuff, because for me I'm likethis was fun, just to like build
myself and then like getting totalk to you now is like just a
special bonus.
You know, yeah, I am veryaccessible.
Oriana Leckert (06:03):
I have a weird name.
I'm extremely online and like,if you find me, I will talk to
you.
This is not, I must say,something that necessarily my
bosses love, that I will likeget really in the weeds with
kind of anyone who asks.
I also, I suppose, have to be.
You know, I have to beprotective of my own time.
I do have like some ways inwhich I got to be like.
You know what?
Like at this stage, I justcan't.
I have to be protective of myown time.
(06:23):
I do have like some ways inwhich I got to be like.
You know what, like at thisstage, I just can't.
I can't give you more yet.
Like we have to wait until thisor that.
Here's some tips, here's someadvice, here's some educational
materials.
Like come back to me later.
Or, you know, if people likewill find me to be like I'm
having this like technicalsupport issue with my suitcase
(06:45):
campaign, that's just so faroutside of what I'm paid to do,
like I just really can't bethere for you on that one.
But yeah, you know that'sthat's good.
And also, like I'm in the world, as you know, like I'm at
conferences, I'm at gatherings,I'm at all kinds of so.
Like it isn't even necessarilythat someone comes to me and is
like I need to know whether thisis a thing that I should do
(07:07):
right now.
Like we joke, my team is calledthe outreach team and like
we're sort of always working,never working.
Like I cannot help but be at adinner party and like start
talking about like well, youknow, if you actually turned
that IP into a tarot deck, likea campaign could really help you
.
That.
Carissa Andrews (07:24):
IP into a tarot deck like a campaign could
really help you All of thosethings yeah.
I can so see that happening.
I think I do that myself whereit's like.
You must have high ideation inyour CliftonStrengths too.
Have you ever done those?
Oriana Leckert (07:39):
Somebody else just talked to me about
CliftonStrengths, I think, alsoon a podcast I haven't.
I don't know, but I think it'sthe same thing.
Carissa Andrews (07:48):
I think that you should look, because I bet
you high ideation is up there,because it's up there for me too
, and I'd be like, oh, we'd bespringing back and forth with
ideas left and right.
It'd be so cool.
Oriana Leckert (07:53):
I think I took exactly one step, which was I
Googled it, I clicked on a quiz,I did half of it and then it
was like, ready to give us theclifton strengths.
Carissa Andrews (08:03):
Like if you get the, what is that book called
strengths finder or pathstrengths finder?
Uh 2.0.
You get like a free test in theback of the book.
Oh, cool to be able to, to doit, but it's super fascinating
so it's been worthwhile for me.
Oriana Leckert (08:15):
I like it a lot I did that finally with
enneagram.
People talked to me aboutenneagrams for so long that I
finally bought a book, right.
I had been so skeptical until Iread the description of type
two and I was like, okay, allright, like that's a bit too
close, like did you write this?
Carissa Andrews (08:31):
I feel very called out right now.
Where did your love forpublishing come into play, like,
how did that all come together?
Oriana Leckert (08:38):
Golly, it's been the only most consistent thing
in my life since I was young.
I mean, I suppose when I was 15or 16, I thought I was going to
be the next Bernadette Peters.
I was like, obviously a bigsinger, like in high school, a
little bit into college, butlike, once, the sort of once,
that dream diminished.
I think I books have alwaysbeen the thing I've loved most
(09:00):
in the world.
You know, it's been the mostconsistent thing in my life.
Uh, I think you know my, my.
There's a photo of me somewheremy senior year of college.
I'm holding a fan of purpleenvelopes in which our resume is
printed on like I don'tremember glittery ink on blue
paper that I was sending forlike job applications to like
(09:21):
FSG and like new directions tobe like senior editor.
I was like obviously me at 21,I will be hired at the most
prestigious publishing company.
Yeah, none of that played outexactly, but my whole career has
been in and around thepublishing industry.
I have sort of a parallelcareer as an arts and culture
journalist, which happened byaccident and like has fed my
(09:42):
soul in many ways that I neverexpected.
But yeah, you know, this isjust what I've always done.
And again, like I never thoughtI was going to be working at
Kickstarter, this was much of mycareer.
I never thought I was going tobe doing what I was doing next,
but in so many unexpected ways.
This job is just such asynthesis of like, all the
things I like and all the thingsthat I am not always aware that
(10:02):
I'm good at.
So Isn't that amazing am?
Carissa Andrews (10:03):
not always aware that I'm good at.
So I don't know, isn't thatamazing?
I love how that comes together.
It's like when we don't try toforce a certain career or a
certain path, the right ones doreally kind of come to us
because, like, how would youlike Kickstarter?
I remember the first time I dida Kickstarter campaign was like
2013, like way back in the daywhen I was launching my first
book and I didn't know what Iwas doing and the first one
failed.
(10:24):
And then I realized what I didwrong with the first one and
like immediately just relaunchedand it was fine.
But it's like I wouldn't evenlooking back then, I would not
have anticipated the transitionand how it's changed and evolved
over the years, and like, so itmakes total sense to me, like
how you would come into thisplace with all of your gifts and
all the insights and all thethings that you have and just be
(10:44):
able to rock it.
It just makes total sense to me.
Oriana Leckert (10:46):
Well, thank you so much, and I suppose I should
call out my former boss whohired me, who is someone I had
known professionally for a longtime.
She was the head of publishingfor five or six years and I
think her name is Margot Atwell.
In fact, depending on when thiscomes out, she's got a live
campaign right now.
She's being published with theFeminist Press an anthology
(11:11):
called Absolute Pleasure, whichis authors, queer authors
writing about the Rocky HorrorPicture Show on the occasion of
its 50th anniversary and how itimpacted them, and all of this.
Anyway, I think that she issingularly responsible for, like
so much of the way thatKickstarter and publishing have
interacted over the years, so II very much consider that I'm
like continuing her work, umthat she laid all the groundwork
for me to be able to succeed inthe way that I have in this
(11:33):
role.
Carissa Andrews (11:33):
That is so awesome.
I love that.
So when is that campaignrunning?
Do you know?
By chance?
Great question.
Oriana Leckert (11:38):
It just launched this week.
I'm pulling it up right now.
Carissa Andrews (11:41):
Uh, it closes on May 22nd okay, yeah, so the
the podcast comes out the daybefore, so perfect.
So if you are listening to thispodcast, go go go check it out.
Oriana Leckert (11:51):
Yeah, I mean what it's.
You know it's so boring to saya url, but it's kickstartercom
slash projects, slash margotm-a-r-g-o-t.
Slash absolute dash pleasure.
Back her campaign now, yeah,that that sounds so awesome.
Carissa Andrews (12:05):
I'm definitely going to check that out and well
, obviously I get to do it nowbecause it's open already.
So good, oh, my gosh, okay.
So obviously you've seen somany campaigns come across your
desk.
When you feel that there's athis is a special one gut
instinct about a campaign, whatare some of the less obvious
signals that you pick up on?
Oriana Leckert (12:28):
Yeah, I mean, it was so kind of you to send me
these questions in advance, andso I read them and I was like,
wow, these are so much differentthan the questions I usually
get.
I could either deeply prepareor wing it, and so I chose the
latter.
So I didn't really.
I mean, I kind of thought itwould be more authentic to just
like answer you on the spot.
I mean, so let me let me re-sayit Some of the lesser known
elements of a campaign that Ithink is really special.
(12:50):
I would say one thing I noticedthat not everybody does is
whether a person has backedcampaigns.
This is not like a consistentsignal.
Sometimes you've got a separateaccount that you've been
backing from, or like maybe youknow like it doesn't always
matter and I don't know who elsenotices it that you've been
backing from or like maybe youknow like it doesn't always
matter and I don't know who elsenotices it.
But I think that tells a coupleof things.
It demonstrates that youunderstand the power of
community, that, like this isnot a, you know, necessarily
(13:14):
just a well that you go to, tolike take water, but that you're
also like putting your moneyand your time back into it.
It also shows me that you havelooked at and probably studied
or, at least on a subconsciouslevel, gotten a sense of the way
other people do this.
You know, I mean plenty ofpeople can run a Kickstarter in
a vacuum and, like you know,lots of people can do great that
(13:35):
way.
But, having seen what otherpeople do, I mean this is a line
and I say it all the time butlike, like I'm an expert in
Kickstarter because I stare atKickstarter all day long and you
can stare at Kickstarter allday long and you can find what
other people are doing projectslike yours, different from yours
.
Like I was just in a talk lastnight and somebody brought up
(13:56):
one of our big games campaignsthrow throw burrito and a way
that they did gosh, can Iremember?
Um, something like it?
A I don't remember all thedetails, but it was like if you
wrap yourself up in a blanketlike a burrito and post it on
Instagram, something happened.
Like, if a hundred people dothat, everybody gets an enamel
pin.
I don't know.
But like, well, that's a crazyidea.
Like that's a way I never wouldhave thought of structuring.
(14:19):
You know, like this kind oflike social proof and like kind
of in a hidden way, gettingpeople to spread the word for
you, you know anyway, I mean Idon't need to go too long on
this but like also like thecreative rewards are another
thing that like really, reallyreally thrill me, like that is
that's my most favorite thing tosee.
Like not necessarilycomplicated swag, or even I love
(14:41):
the special editions, but likeeven the wild, you know, a
velvet cover and like a stainedglass window in the slipcase.
Whatever I more get excitedabout, like the stuff that only
you could do.
That only makes sense for youraudience.
An example I always get aboutthis is like Penny Reed has um,
two very well-known romancenovelist.
Uh, she did a campaign for aseries called Knitting in the
(15:04):
City and she's got a buddy whoowns a yarn store and they made
a custom color of yarn that wasonly available during the
campaign.
Beautiful, wonderful.
I love that.
I love Willow Winters, also aromance novelist, an erotic
romance novelist.
In her early campaigns she madescene boxes where she wrote out
the sex scenes like a filmscript and included in the box
(15:26):
like the toys and theaccessories that are used, so
you could act out the scenesfrom your favorite books at home
on your own.
Like these are the things.
Oh, I just heard another onerecently.
Someone doing, I think KatSingleton doing a why Choose
romance, had candles that werescented after each of the
suitors.
Come on, come on, that's socool and like I think that
(15:49):
matters, because you're notwriting an erotic romance novel,
you don't have, you know, aheroine who knits, but there's
something like that in your workthat you could pull out and
make into a fun reward.
That's going to be exciting foryou, thrilling for your backers
, maybe deepen your bonds with,like other people in your
creative community.
(16:09):
Like I love that.
I love that stuff so much.
Carissa Andrews (16:11):
That is so cool .
Yeah, for like Write yourReality, I was trying to go much
more into like the quantummanifestation, helping people
understand that, but I'm in theprocess of like mapping out my
steamy rom-com, one that I'mgoing to be doing in July, and
so for me it's like learningabout all the different tools
and things that you can createthat are just yours.
That's been so much fun becausethen it's like it like, like
(16:33):
you just said, it's tied to whatyour IP actually is, but it
sparks it in a new way.
That's just so visceral thatyou're like you know, this was
all just in my head and nowthere's like this thing, not
just a book, but like a thingthat's physical, that's tied to
that thing.
Oriana Leckert (16:48):
It's wild, or even virtual.
I mean something as simple aslike here are 20 tracks that I
love to listen to while I write,or a book soundtrack, or like
here are five other authorswhose work inspired me so much
that I've made a nice pretty pdfof like the recommendations
that I have for them, or namingrights.
We see this all the time We'llname the dragon after your dog.
We'll name the villain afteryour mother-in-law, we'll name
(17:11):
the hero after your son.
I've seen also if you have likevery fancy friends.
You know this woman, emilyFlake, made a residency upstate
for like female identifyingcomic writers and so she's like
a New Yorker cartoonist.
She does have fancy friends.
I know one of them was likeJosh Gondelman will call your
mom on her birthday to wish hera happy birthday.
(17:32):
Like it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be a lot ofmoney, it doesn't even have to
be a lot of time.
It just has to be special andmeaningful to you and the people
who are supporting you that isso good.
Carissa Andrews (17:41):
I love that.
It kind in a sense touches onthe question that I was going to
ask you next where it's.
Like you know a lot of authors,we get hyper-focused on those
pricing tiers and like thedeliverables and what's going to
happen there.
But from what your experience,what's the biggest missed
opportunity that you see when itcomes to activating a backer's
emotional investment?
Oriana Leckert (18:00):
Just interacting with the backers directly.
It is wild to me.
Like this is.
I think one of the big thingsabout Kickstarter is that we're
really we help collapse the likedivisions between creator and
their supporters.
And like this doesn't have tobe tell all your backers to wrap
themselves in a burrito andmake an Instagram post about it.
Like it can be as simple aslike.
(18:20):
Before the campaign even startstalking to them, I'm working
out what things, what swag I'mgoing to do.
One nice piece of swag for thiscampaign.
Would you rather see apersonalized notebook or a tote
bag with art by this gorgeouscreator?
Just ask them.
Even if you always wanted tomake that notebook and that was
(18:40):
always your intention, the actof asking them is going to make
them feel included.
You can also say or C, tell mesomething else that I haven't
thought of.
Maybe enough people tell you todo a thing you hadn't even
considered yet that turns out tobe easy and fun and cool, and
you can interact with thebackers before the campaign,
during the campaign, after thecampaign, like all kinds of ways
(19:02):
.
So I think how do we interactwith them before the campaign?
Because I don't Throughwhatever avenues are already
available to you through your, Iguess.
Carissa Andrews (19:09):
I should say your supporters.
They are your yeah okay, I waslike you can do that in the
campaign.
It's like, okay, don't don'tbring me out there, because I
was like did I miss it?
Oriana Leckert (19:20):
What could you do?
You know I bet on your, on yourprelaunch page now that we've
expanded those, you couldprobably like have a quiz there
that says you know, uh, at me onInstagram or like DM me and
choose a, b or C on this quiz.
You know, like there's probablyways you couldn't do it through
the platform, you can't messagepeople yet, but I suppose you
kind of could though, like ifyou've already run a campaign
(19:41):
and it's, it's in a similargenre, you could comment or ask
those people who have alreadydone it 100% yeah that would
make sense
Carissa Andrews (19:48):
too Interesting .
That's so good.
There's so many different ways,like I've been right now with
the campaign for Write.
Your Reality is technicallystill going, but I've been
interacting and just droppinglike little updates and thank
you, you actually gave me theadvice to hold back on all the
stretch goals and just plunkthem in one at a time.
That was perfect.
That was so good, and so I'vebeen doing that.
It's just, it's so interesting.
(20:09):
But authors I don't know whatit is about authors on platforms
they're so like.
They're just like you.
Do you boo you?
Oriana Leckert (20:17):
ask a question, they hardly respond to you.
Well, there's I mean, I'm sureyou probably know there's like
an incredible Facebook group.
This is not Kickstarterofficial, but it's called
Kickstarter for Authors.
It's run by Anthea Sharp andThorne Coyle it is.
I dip into it a couple of timesa week just to see what people
are talking about.
They run an incredible,incredible community.
There's like over 7,000 authorswho are just asking each other
(20:40):
all day long where'd you getyour sprayed edges?
What are you thinking abouttariffs?
Will you review my campaign andgive me some critical feedback?
Like incredible, incrediblecommunity.
I I'm really just so dazzled bywhat they have over there.
Carissa Andrews (20:52):
That's where I got like the whole checklist.
Oriana Leckert (20:54):
I was looking for it, I'm like it's on my desk
.
Yep, yep.
Carissa Andrews (20:58):
So good.
Uh, I personally am not onFacebook anymore.
Oriana Leckert (21:01):
I have issues with that platform, but I do the
literal, only reason I go toFacebook is to check in on that
group.
I'm this.
There is internal conversationabout making custom discords for
Kickstarter and, like I, Idon't know I don't know actually
who runs discord and whether Iwould rather support them, but I
(21:24):
worry, I would like.
I would love it if that existedsomewhere that wasn't Facebook,
but I can only imagine like thedifficulty and the barriers to
entry of like transitioning acommunity of that size to
another platform.
So I understand that they'rethere for now and that's where I
find them and I just hope thatsomeday it becomes somewhere
(21:44):
else that's a little lesscompromised.
Carissa Andrews (21:45):
Right, yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you right on that.
I haven't even though thecampaign's running I haven't
been back on there.
I probably should.
I haven't been on Facebooksince like January, so I'm like,
nope, just can't do it, I getit I respect that choice.
Yeah, it's been an interestingawakening with that one, that's
for sure.
I mean, I kind of felt thevibes of that coming for a while
(22:08):
, but it was.
It was very clear come thisearlier this year.
Okay, so if you could wave amagic wand and change how
authors use Kickstarter, whatnew creative norms would you
love to see?
Oriana Leckert (22:21):
I don't know.
I mean, I kind of feel likemaybe it doesn't say that great
of stuff about me, but like Ijust want to see what people do.
I don't necessarily like,that's where I'm.
Just I'm so surprised by thecreativity that authors bring to
it.
I don't know the one idea thatI continue to wish we.
(22:42):
I think that there would be away to do this technically that
kickstarter would have to helpwith.
But like I want to see somebodylike build a book tour via
kickstarter, like the way that Iwould love I've suggested this
internally before to have like,uh, kind of like conditional
rewards, of like.
If 10 people back at this tier,then you get it.
But in the absence of that,what I would like to see someone
(23:05):
do is like a tier that's like$500.
That's Columbus, ohio, and ifyou get 10 friends each of whom
to give you money and you put inthe $500, I'm coming to your
town and you could like mapyourself a tour in that way, I
think that would be really,really lovely, but yeah, I mean,
I don't know that there's.
(23:28):
This is like a kind of asideways answer to the question.
I love that special editionsare like the biggest thing and
the like majority of thecategory right now, but I don't
want that to have such anoversized impact that people
start to think that you can'tuse Kickstarter for just a
regular book or somethingdifferent.
It has to be, you know, thefanciest, most expensive special
(23:51):
edition possible.
So I mean, I wouldn't, I don'twant to change it.
I don't want any fewer specials.
I just also want people toremember there's plenty of other
stuff that you can do here.
I guess one magic wand that Iliterally am trying to wave.
I think this is okay to talkabout.
I would like for Kickstarter tobe a reporting entity to
Sarkana, who runs BookScan, sothat books sold on Kickstarter
(24:16):
can be counted toward salesfigures in the trade.
I'm working on that.
I have been working on that formultiple years.
It is so much more complicatedthan you could imagine, but
that's the magic wand that I'mholding and one day I will wave
it and it will work, that'ssuper interesting.
Carissa Andrews (24:30):
I wonder why is it so complicated?
Oriana Leckert (24:38):
We could spend most of the rest of our time on
this.
I'm trying to think of what'sthe shortest way to say it.
Part of the problem is thatKickstarter are not sales in a
traditional way.
The way that most peoplefulfill it looks to the retailer
.
It looks to BookScan, like bulkbuys which are, like, not
counted toward bestseller lists.
I mean, typically you arebuying 100 or 500 or a thousand
copies of your book to send itout to individual people, so the
(25:01):
burden falls on us todemonstrate to them why.
No, no, this is not, you know,somebody just like trying to
juice the numbers by buying athousand copies of their own
book.
There are individual sales, andso that would mean internally,
we would need to have signals oflike you know how many of the?
I mean, I think you've seenwe've shifted over the last year
(25:21):
or so from tier based rewardsto skew based rewards, so you
can actually now identify in acampaign literally the number of
books running through it,whereas before not every reward
had a book in it and some tiershad multiple.
But you know, like everythingwas just a lot more fuzzy, so
that's part of it.
Anyway, yeah, like a lot ofstuff needs to happen within our
(25:44):
tools that would be able tocollect the data properly.
And then we'd have to educateauthors on, like, what they're
doing and why.
You know, do you have an ISB?
So like yeah, there's all ofthat stuff.
I guess I'll say by the timethis comes out, we'll have like
made a lot of noise about this.
We're rolling out a whole suiteof post-campaign tools.
We're rolling out our ownnative pledge management system
(26:05):
in early May.
I think that that puts us asignificant stride closer to
being able to get this donebecause of the way, the type of
data we'll be collecting, theway we'll be collecting it once
we have those systems in place.
Carissa Andrews (26:20):
Oh, that makes sense.
Okay, that's really cool,interesting.
I can't wait to learn more.
My campaign ends in the middleof May, so I'm like we're going
to be playing around with someof these new tools.
Oriana Leckert (26:30):
I might have an email for you, yeah.
Carissa Andrews (26:31):
I would love to see.
I would love to see.
Okay, so are there any earlypatterns or creative experiments
that you're seeing that couldquietly transform how authors
approach crowdfunding over thenext few years?
Anything that's kind of liketrending that you're like I
didn't see this building.
Oriana Leckert (26:50):
No, I mean, I feel like the specials reallys
really did like, if we had beentalking a year or two years ago,
that would have been the thingI mean.
In fact, when I was workingunder Margo, she was pitching
that idea.
We pitched that idea to a lotof people and it didn't quite.
It didn't catch on enough thatit became a groundswell.
Um, what's the next thing?
(27:10):
Like that, I mean, I've beenlooking a lot at like lit rpg.
I think that there's a biggrowth area there.
I think, especially onkickstarter, like those books
are already like a way to gamifythe idea of reading and writing
and like kickstarter can begamified.
Our games created.
Our games community is massive.
Like that could help somecrossovers from like the
(27:33):
ravenous games backers into thepublishing landscape.
I'm also seeing a lot of sortof like IP crossover in a
similar vein.
Like you know, a tabletop boardgame based on a fantasy novel or
an RPG, or like Holly Black dida card game, sherilyn Kenyon
did a tarot deck, like stufflike that.
That's like reappropriatingstuff that is already yours,
(27:56):
that you already have, in a newformat for a new audience that
you can also.
Often, like you know, we'llraise so much money on this deck
, which has excellent margins,that can also fund, you know, a
deluxe audiobook version or likethe recovering of, like the
series, you know, like otherthings like that.
So I think yeah, I'm not sureif that's gonna what's the
(28:16):
question?
Quietly transform how authorsapproach crowdfunding.
I don't know.
Those are some things I'mthinking about.
Is that close enough toanswering your question?
Carissa Andrews (28:24):
definitely, definitely.
It's very interesting to mejust to see how, how authors are
using it.
Like I obviously, before I gotstarted, went through a lot of
the non-fiction campaigns justto make sure, like, okay, how
are they kind of laying thingsout, like, what kind of tiers
are they using?
Just because it's been, it'sbeen a hot minute, since I've
used Kickstarter personallyother than backing other
campaigns, and so for me it wasjust kind of like just taking a
(28:46):
look at, like how are they doing?
And I'm like, ooh, that's kindof a cool way to add this and
then layer that and and justlike for me, this first time is
kind of throwing everything outthere and seeing what sticks,
like, what are people actuallywanting in this situation?
Oriana Leckert (28:59):
And I think you know, most of many of my
examples tend to be from fiction, but I think like there are
versions of this for nonfiction,for example, workbooks.
I think Kickstarter is going tobecome more and more like a
really strong place forworkbooks, because much of the
rest of the book sellinginternet is decreasing them.
(29:20):
I think Amazon will no longerstock them because they're like
low content or something likethat.
So you know, if you're alreadywriting a nonfiction book with
any amount of like, you knowself-help or like exercises, or
how to making a companionworkbook, making companion
courses, you know again, justlike reformatting the content
you already got into a slightlydifferent version that would
(29:40):
either that would get people tolike double their support or
appeal to a different audiencethat wants to learn in a
different kind of way.
Carissa Andrews (29:47):
Oh sure, you could even like.
You just spark some ideas in mewhere I'm like, oh, I could do.
I could do something like thatwith my own stuff.
Come back with anotherKickstarter for the workbooks I
got with that.
How cool is that.
Carissa Andrew (29:57):
Absolutely, that's awesome.
I love it.
Carissa Andrews (29:59):
So are there any mistakes that you see
happening, not necessarily fromignorance, but from fear, Like
are they holding back or playingsmall, Like what do you see
there when it comes to authors?
Oriana Leckert (30:08):
Yeah, I mean I do.
I also think I sit from asomewhat lofty space, like it's
easy for me to pass judgment onwhether someone is afraid.
I mean, there's a sort of along standing debate within the
community of, like how to setyour funding goal.
You know that's obviously ahuge and crucial question.
There's a big current of folkswho set their funding goal,
(30:31):
especially for their first orsecond campaign, at $500, which
is out of fear and I get it.
I understand you want to makesure that you fund that's like
the most important thing, but itworries me.
I mean, kickstarter wasdesigned as all or nothing
funding so that you could do anhonest accounting of what you
needed and not come to the endand have to do a project without
(30:54):
enough money to really make it.
Like, if you ask for $500, Imean, if you're doing like a
simple print on demand paperbackrelease, maybe $500 is fine.
But if you're doing acomplicated you know special
edition, if you have lots ofrewards, all this other stuff,
like if you come to the end andyou have made a lot less than
your budget requires, you'rekind of in a bad spot.
(31:16):
You know it puts you worse offthan you were and, like you know
, I mean a sort ofcounterexample here.
I was actually hired atKickstarter to grow our
journalism category, and so oneof the early campaigns I worked
on was like a big.
It was a number of a number ofwriters who had like big
bloggers and big sort of likegawker in that community.
(31:36):
They were launching a newcollaboratively owned media
outlet, right, and they I can'tremember now, I think they came
with like a you know, like a$90,000 goal and I was like,
look, I could not believe morestrongly in what you guys are
doing, but that's really highfor a journalism campaign on
Kickstarter.
Like are doing, but that that'sreally high for a journalism
campaign on Kickstarter.
Like, are we really comfortablewith that?
And the founder she said youknow, I want, when people land
(32:00):
on this page, for them toimmediately see the ambition of
what we're doing.
Like, I don't want to trim mysails, I don't want to, like you
know, I want everyone to knowthis is what journalism costs,
this is what it means to likestart an endeavor like this, and
I want that to be clear fromthe start.
And she funded, they made it.
So you know, as I just just to,like you know, walk myself back
(32:22):
a little bit.
I don't want to encouragepeople to raise their goals so
high that they fail and thenthey blame me about it.
I'm not trying to do that, Ijust I think that's sort of the
biggest thing that people arescared.
They're so scared of notfunding that they're not
necessarily considering theramifications of funding too low
.
Carissa Andrews (32:42):
What are the ramifications?
Because for me, when I did thisparticular one, I said at 500,
but it was a recommendation onAnthea's book.
If you haven't done aKickstarter for a while to set
it there, I'm like that's fine.
It wasn't out of fear, but itwas definitely out of like I
don't know where to start.
So we're going to startsomewhere.
Why not Right?
Oriana Leckert (32:57):
So yeah, well, and I don't like being against
Anthea.
I think Anthea is brilliant andwonderful and I, just, like I
said, you know, depending onwhat it is that you're making
and what your fixed costsactually are, if, if you end the
campaign with like less moneythan you need, but now you've
made all these promises abouttrim size and bells and whistles
and reward types and thingslike that, you're just maybe
(33:25):
you're fine to fund it.
You know to cover the rest byyourself, but maybe you're going
to wind up trying to cutcorners, trying to, like you
know, produce an inferiorproduct.
Like disappoint yourself,disappoint your backers, like
all of those are worse outcomes,I think, than if you aim too
high, didn't get there and then,exactly as you did, we're like
well, I learned a lot of lessons.
I'm going to change the way I'mdoing things and try again and
like hope to get where I need tobe at that point.
Carissa Andrews (33:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, for me it was really easy.
Like I have a lot of digitalstuff in the background, so I
knew that my funding would befine at 500.
Like that's not a big deal.
I knew that would be no issuethere whatsoever.
But my paperback books in thecampaign are just normal, like
I'm not, I'm not trying to gospecial edition yet, I'm just
trying to get them out.
This is a new edition for thefirst book and so it's like
(34:07):
second books coming out.
We'll see how it goes.
And it's just been kind of funto play around with the concept
again because I've seen youspeak so many times and then
I've seen a lot of the panelsand you know other authors who
are who have been doing it.
I'm like you know what I feel,like now's the time to give it a
try and just kind of play withit.
So for me it was definitely alet's just play with it and see
what happens and see if I needto adjust, like going forward.
(34:29):
So this gives a lot of insight.
Oriana Leckert (34:30):
Thank you.
Yeah Well, and it sounds likeyou made the perfect choice for
you.
So again, I'm not out heretrying to get people to question
their convictions.
Carissa Andrews (34:38):
Yeah, for sure.
I think it's just reallyinteresting.
I like it.
I like being able to hear thetake on it from what you're
seeing and what a lot of otherauthors are doing, and it just
helps a lot to be able to know.
You know where do you fall.
Where do you fall on thatspectrum?
It's really neat, Okay, so inthe publishing world we're often
told that we have to build anaudience first.
Do you think Kickstarter canflip that dynamic, Like build an
(34:59):
audience through the campaigninstead of the other way around?
Oriana Leckert (35:02):
I think some of that is possible.
I think if you were running atabletop board game campaign,
you can come in with virtuallyno existing audience and there
are such rabid supportersdesperate to back every single
game that launches.
You might be able to create anaudience from almost nothing.
I would say that's not true.
(35:23):
Right now, in the publishingcategory, what we see is that an
average publishing campaign isgetting about 30% of their
backings from the Kickstarterecosystem.
As you know, we track that inyour dashboard so you can see
the work that you're doingversus the work that is like our
value prop, like what we arebringing to you.
(35:43):
So I usually you know 30%that's not nothing.
That's pretty excellent to growyour audience by 30%, but it is
definitely not everything.
Like if you have I.
I mean it also depends what itis that you're trying to do.
If you have a very modestcampaign with low goals, you
could kind of come here fromnothing.
But tech startup works best inpublishing by having an
(36:03):
amplifying effect like we.
Our algorithm works onattention.
You need you know if it seesthat a lot of people are
clicking, backing, commenting,following, etc.
That's a signal that like oh,people like this, let's show it
to if it sees that a lot ofpeople are clicking, backing,
commenting, following, et cetera.
That's a signal that like oh,people like this, let's show it
to more and more people.
If you don't have that earlysignal, if you can't bring
anybody on board, it's not solikely that you'll get the
(36:27):
visibility to like completelyfund from, just you know, native
Kickstarter backers.
Carissa Andrews (36:33):
That makes total sense.
It's kind of like you knownative Kickstarter backers.
That makes total sense.
It's kind of like you know whenyou go to TikTok and if you
don't get any people watching orliking your commenting in the
first like whatever five, tenminutes, it's very likely that
that video is not going to govery far because you don't have
the kind of traction to get itmoving.
So that makes total sense.
That's interesting.
Okay.
So what's something surprisingthat can catch Kickstarter's eye
(36:53):
, something that authorswouldn't necessarily realize
mattered?
Oriana Leckert (36:56):
Yeah, I mean Kickstarter's eye.
I suppose there's that's notexactly a monolithic thing, I
don't.
I don't think authors don'trealize that it matters, but I
think your project image isreally important.
You know it's.
I I would say in the six yearsfrom when I got here to now,
people know this lesson muchmore clearly.
(37:17):
I remember when I wasinterviewing for the job I mean
again, I was looking atjournalism projects but I was
like what are these people doing?
None of this is appealing atall.
I would not back that up.
But yeah, I think you know agood piece of advice is like
look at your campaign on yourphone.
All you're going to see is thetitle, subtitle, project image,
maybe like one sentence fromyour campaign story.
(37:39):
And I think you want to knowthat with just those elements
you've like really enticedpeople.
You know that like your projectimage is like bright and
colorful.
It's not overlaid with like somuch text that when it's little
is going to be hard to read.
You've got like someinteresting keywords in your
like main elements, maybe alittle, you know, a teaser, as
(38:02):
you're like opening paragraphs,because that's all you're going
to get from a lot of people.
It's, in fact, more than you'llget.
Many people will just see theproject image, scroll by on a
search page or, you know, on asocial platform or something
like that.
So, like, just really reallymake sure that those elements
working together are going tolike grab people and draw them
(38:22):
right in and that doesn't meanto do too much with your project
image.
That's the other thing that Isee with, like, the project
image will have, you know, thecover image, a mock-up of like a
book, a paperback, a hardcoverand a tablet, also the tagline,
like you know, written across it, like so and like a you know
it's all.
(38:43):
So not much that's confusing.
That will have the oppositeeffect, I think, like a
beautiful photo, like the imageon your cover, like your book
mock-up, sitting in aninteresting with a border, like
I don't know things, like I meanas ever look at what other
people are doing and figure outwhat your version of that is.
You know, you can scroll asearch page and just see, like
(39:04):
well, which are the ones thatjump out to me.
What can I replicate about that?
For my work?
Carissa Andrews (39:08):
That makes total sense.
Okay, so this is a completeside note question, because what
you said just kind of made methink of something when you're
talking about SEO and makingsure that you know the words and
the language and stuff, so notnecessarily the image is
enticing and makes sense.
I know for me I used ChatGPT tobe able to try to like hone in
really onto, like what are thewords that are going to matter
most for my campaign?
And I know that you guys havean AI.
(39:30):
Oh gosh, what's the thingcalled the AI thing?
Oriana Leckert (39:32):
I know that you guys have an AI.
Oh gosh, what's the thingcalled the?
Carissa Andrews (39:34):
AI thing.
Yeah, the disclosure at thebottom, and I know that from my
experience it's not an issue touse AI, you just need to
disclose it right.
I had a friend who I think shedid some AI images and her
campaign got like shut down andthen she because she just hadn't
checked the box- she didn'trealize that her images is on
the campaign, and so for me, I'mlike that's so cool that you
don't number one.
(39:54):
You don't mind that we're usingAI to be able to help us to
write better copy, because Ithink a lot of authors were good
at telling stories or were goodat doing that sort of thing,
not so great at beingcopywriters, yeah.
So what is your personal takeon that whole thing?
Should authors be paying moreattention?
Do they make sure they clickthat button?
(40:15):
What has to happen there?
Oriana Leckert (40:17):
Yeah, I mean, I actually I will politely decline
from sharing my personalopinions about AI.
I don't think that helpsanybody.
I will say I do feel good aboutKickstarter's policy because to
me, it's one of radicaltransparency.
Like I, I think what mattersKickstarter is about connecting
you with your supporters, and soif your use of AI is enhancing
(40:40):
your product in a way that isgoing to make your supporters
really happy and they're goingto be delighted to back it
because of or despite that, Ithink that's wonderful, like we
are in the business ofsupporting creativity in all of
its forms, so I do really likethat.
I mean, I yeah, I said I wasgoing to refrain I have concerns
, you know, about the sort oflike we are to me, the sort of
(41:03):
like fundamental sin of AI,which is like that it's built
largely on stolen creative work.
I don't think we can fix thatnow.
You know like that happened,and so that's that's what gives
me varying degrees of pausedepending on which systems, in
which ways, people are using it.
But again, this is not about me, this is about you and your
audience, and so, yes, I thinkeveryone should use that
(41:25):
disclosure, both so as not torun afoul of like Kickstarter's
rules, but also so that nobodyis surprised, you know.
You know you don't want yourbackers to think you're doing
things one way and then find outthat it's another way and feel
tricked or, you know, misled.
So, yeah, I think absolutely.
And you know, if you're usingAI, be proud of it, exactly as
(41:45):
you just were.
I think there's nothing wrongwith that.
Nobody should be doing it likefurtively or strangely.
Talk about what you're doing,why you're doing it, how it has
helped you, and let yoursupporters be on board with that
.
Carissa Andrews (41:57):
Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it's really,
it's really important that youdo pay attention to that too.
So, like, if you're whetherit's your images, or whether
you're using it for, you know,marketing texts or whatever it's
not you're not going to getpenalized for it.
It's just just a disclosure andthat's all it is.
It's so good.
Oriana Leckert (42:11):
It would be more .
You would get more penalized ifyou didn't disclose it and then
people found out later and feltlike you had not been truthful
with them.
Carissa Andrews (42:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Okay, so what energetic shiftshave you noticed in campaigns
that either lose momentum orcome roaring back even stronger?
Oriana Leckert (42:27):
Yeah, I think this question is broadly about
the sort of like plateau periodin the middle which happens to
everyone.
Even Brandon Sanderson had someperiods where it was a little
slower.
He was only earning a couplemillion dollars a day, right,
yeah.
So what do I have to say aboutthat?
I mean, I think people shouldplan for it, be aware that
(42:50):
that's going to happen and likethat's okay, it's not your fault
, but really think about whatyou can do during that time to
keep the momentum going.
We touched briefly on the ideaof stretch goals.
This is a common mistake.
I see that people lay out alltheir stretch goals right on the
page.
I can see if you're like reallyexcited about those things.
You just want everyone to know,but I think you rob yourself of
(43:11):
the opportunity of reviewingthem, announcing them, talking
about why and getting peopleexcited.
That's a great thing to doduring that plateau period.
You know telling people, hey,remember this.
Like guess what?
We've gotten to this point?
We're going to do this otherthing, help us get there, or
send them quizzes like we talkedabout.
Would you like us to do this orthat?
You know?
Blah, blah, blah.
(43:31):
That is not to say, by the way,you should not thoroughly
budget for and understand allthe stretch goals you're
offering before you launch.
You must do that, but you don'tneed to tell everybody
everything when you first start.
I'm trying to think of someother tactics I've seen.
One cute thing that I used tosee more in journalism is like
(43:52):
if you have someone with deeppockets who is going to happy to
invest $1,000 or $5,000 in yourcampaign, you can sort of rig
up a little DIY matchingcampaign in the midst of your
campaign.
You can say, for the next threedays, an angel investor will be
matching all donations up to$1,000 or $5,000 or whatever to
(44:12):
give people that like real goodfeeling of like your money is
counting double at this moment.
I think that's a cute thing.
You know, the middle period isa great time to go on somebody's
wonderful podcast or like getyou know on an Instagram live or
a TikTok feature or reviewsomething like that, which are
also, you know, ways togalvanize other audiences and
(44:34):
kind of bring them to your work.
So I don't know I'm not sure ifI'm still answering this
question in the way that youasked it, but make a lot.
You know, think hard about whatyou can do, um, to kind of keep
the enthusiasm going,counteract that bit of a slump
or, you know, to come roaringback in your final week, uh,
when the sort of now or nothing,now or never, all or nothing,
(44:55):
do or die really kicks in andyou can like marshal your
efforts there do you see like a,an organic surge at the end
from kickstarter's perspective,like people who have been
watching for a while and thenthey're finally like, oh crap,
it's time.
Totally, yeah, people.
Also, all of your followers,will get a Kickstarter email 48
hours before the campaign ends,and I believe that people who
(45:16):
have been following since thepre-launch phase will get
another reminder email at theeight hour mark before you close
.
And also, you know you're,exactly as you said, at the
eight hour mark before you close.
And also you know, exactly asyou said, like your marketing
ramps up, your outreach getsmore high.
Key, this is it.
This is your last chance.
Yep, yeah, that does tend todrive backings, for sure.
Carissa Andrews (45:34):
Yeah, for sure.
I like that a lot.
Okay, where are we at with time, because I have a special thing
I'd love to do with you, but Idon't want to keep you too long,
are you cool?
Like we could do it rapid fire?
I have this thing, like a quicklittle segment that I would
love to throw some fictionalKickstarter setups and, just
like you, give like a reallyquick description of, like, what
you would want to do to improveit, if you're, if you're, I
love it, I love it.
Oriana Leckert (45:54):
That sounds so fun, okay cool.
Carissa Andrews (45:55):
Okay, so the first one.
You see a memoir author runningtheir first Kickstarter.
They're offering one-on-onecoaching calls as the reward.
Oriana Leckert (46:06):
What should they do to improve that?
I mean, I kind of love that,but also you can sort of like
fragment it.
You could do group sessions,you could do sort of like.
You know other kinds of likeinteractive elements.
Wait, so what'd you say?
It was a memoirist In thisexample.
What's the memoir sort of about?
Carissa Andrews (46:24):
You don't get that information.
It's just a memoir authorrunning their first Kickstarter.
Oriana Leckert (46:27):
Yeah, I mean if that fits with the theme of the
memoir.
I mean, if it's a memoir likeyou know how I cleaned up my hot
mess of a life, then people onlike you know recovery or like
things like that, I think thattotally makes sense.
If it's a memoir of like youknow learning to cook better, I
mean, I don't know, that couldanyway, yes, great.
(46:48):
I think that's fine.
I think one-on-one coachingsessions are great, provided
that you have a skill set thatpeople might want to be coached
and buy.
Yeah.
Carissa Andrews (46:57):
Yeah, okay, okay.
So how about this one?
An author launching their firstbook in a fantasy series is
announcing six ambitious stretchgoals before the campaign, even
before the funds are hittingtheir baseline.
Perhaps this was based off ofme.
Oriana Leckert (47:13):
You know, yeah, I mean I would, as we've
discussed, certainly I wouldkeep those, hold those back.
I think also, especially for afirst time creator, it can just
confuse people about like well,how much money do you need to
like do this whole thing?
Also, it might shake people'strust if you know you like are
new at this and you're like anemerging writer and you don't
have a strong audience yet.
(47:34):
Like if you're coming here for$50,000 and you know I click on
your campaign and you have sixbackers, that doesn't make me
feel like super great.
That like you're there and thatyou know and also kind of like
do you understand what kind oftime and effort it's going to
take to like really make thisstuff you know.
So, yeah, I would say all ofthat.
Those are not excellent signals, Not again to say that it can't
(47:56):
be done.
I think Brandon Sanderson'sfirst campaign weighs $10
million.
Sherilyn Kenyon raised amillion bucks her first time
here.
Cassie Clare $10 million.
Sherilyn Kenyon raised amillion bucks her first time
here.
Cassie Clare similarly.
Carissa Andrews (48:11):
But you know we can't all be Brandon or Cassie
or Sherilyn.
Yeah, they could have built-inaudiences there that are fairly
large.
Okay, real quick question onthose stretch goals, though that
just reminded me.
When you announce the stretchgoals, do you recommend having
them lower on the page, like asyou're building the page, or
should they go up at the topwhen the campaign is running?
Lower on the page, like asyou're building the?
Oriana Leckert (48:25):
the page or should they go up at the top
when the campaign is running?
That's not something we could ab test, to be honest.
So I don't have like a stronguh, I don't think.
I think I would say, yeah, Idon't have a strong preference.
If you do decide to put them atthe top when the campaign is
ending, I'd move it back downagain because, remember, people
will keep landing on that pageforever and if the first thing
(48:46):
they see is about stretch goals,that might be like too inside
baseball for them to reallyunderstand what's happening here
.
But I certainly see the wisdomof putting it at the top while
the campaign is running.
That makes sense.
Carissa Andrews (48:57):
That makes sense.
Okay, last one, An indie authorwith a gorgeous campaign
visuals, well-writtendescriptions, professional video
, all that stuff but has almostno backer interaction or
community building during thecampaign itself.
Oriana Leckert (49:14):
What should they do to get that going?
Yeah, interact, talk to yourbackers.
I'm always shocked when I see,especially like fairly campaigns
that are going fairly well thathave no backer updates, like
why would you not take advantageof that line to your biggest
fans?
That's crazy, yeah.
So I mean, what would I tellthem?
Do the thing?
Yeah, designed to help youinteract with your audience,
(49:35):
interact with them.
Why would you relinquish thatincredible, amazing opportunity?
Carissa Andrews (49:40):
So good.
Or like to reach out, like yousaid, to other people's campaign
, or not.
Oriana Leckert (49:44):
Well, I guess other people's campaigns too.
Carissa Andrews (49:46):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, I reached out to RussellNolte.
I think he has a campaignthat's running right now.
Oriana Leckert (49:50):
That's very similar to mine.
I love his how to thrive as anartist.
Yes, I totally back that.
Carissa Andrews (49:55):
That was so good let me see if he hasn't
responded to me though I did itthrough the kickstarter like
platform, and he has notresponded um, so two things.
Oriana Leckert (50:05):
You can email me and I will.
I'll send it to him and be likebuddy.
What?
What are we doing here?
I'm, yeah, I've known russellfor a while.
I would love that, but I'llalso say just to the listeners
this campaign is live throughjune 8th, so it will still be up
when you are listening to this.
Probably, how to thrive as awriter in a capitalist dystopia
this is russell.
Something like his 45thcampaign.
(50:27):
That's crazy.
Yeah, he's.
I'm a huge fan of that I am tooso good.
Carissa Andrews (50:32):
I saw that because it was obviously being
recommended with mine too.
I was like what is this?
I need this book nice.
Oh yeah, I'm a backer,absolutely me too okay, two more
questions and then we'll wrapup here today.
So if you could, could talk toan author that's standing at the
starting line.
Maybe they're terrified, butthey're ready.
What would you say, not just tocoach them, but to recode the
(50:52):
relationship with visibility andasking for support through?
Oriana Leckert (50:55):
Kickstarter.
See, you know that I'm a lifecoach.
You've phrased this question ina way to, like, exemplify.
Carissa Andrews (51:01):
I must have, I must have?
Oriana Leckert (51:04):
Okay, well, so first of all, I do tell,
especially first-time authors ifyou are equal parts thrilled
and terrified when you pressthat launch button, you are
probably doing it right.
I'm not here to say you couldnot have any fear around this.
It is very healthy and naturalto have it, know this already.
But, like when I certainly whenI started here, there is like a
(51:24):
persistent belief thatKickstarter is akin to like
charity, which that's like noshade, to GoFundMe and like
other platforms that aredesigned in that way.
But like you're not begging formoney.
When you run a Kickstartercampaign, the reframe that I've
been preaching forever is you'reinviting people to join you on
a creative journey.
(51:45):
You're taking this crazyjourney and you're saying, like,
let's do this together.
Hey, you know what we need moreof in life?
Community collaboration, risingtides, lifting all the boats.
Like you're going to getrewarded along the way for being
an early adopter of like mycreative heart and helping me to
like make this thing together.
(52:07):
I love that as a concept and ifyou can communicate that, you
know, if you can believe that inyour own heart and communicate
it to your supporters, how arethey not going to be so excited
to get on board?
Carissa Andrews (52:21):
I love that.
I think that it's such a hugereframe because it's so
different from what the indieauthor like main setup and the
way that everything has been runfor so long in that dystopian
capitalistic society.
It's been trained like.
It's been training us for avery long time now, since I mean
it's not super long becauseindie authorship is only what?
15-ish years old, but stillit's like we're sitting at this
(52:44):
point where it's like we wantthat collaboration, we want the
community, and I love that.
This is like how we get toshift not only our relationship
to our readers, but like ourrelationship to receiving for
the cool thing that we justcreated.
Totally, I love that it's sogood.
Okay, ariana.
Where can listeners go to findout more about you and about
Kickstarter for authors?
Oriana Leckert (53:28):
at Oriana B-K-L-Y-N on, I think, all the
platforms, but I'm a lot lessresponsive on them than I used
to be, just like protecting myown creative hearts.
You know, kickstarter has a tonof resources for creators.
We actually just rolled out awhole new creator resource hub,
kickstartercom slash creators.
Tons of like education andworksheets.
There's also a publishingcreator tips page.
(53:48):
I'm just going to get you thatlink Kickstarter dot com slash
creators slash publishing.
That's got many videos of myface doing talks much like this
one.
Also like articles there'sthere's a budgeting article
written by Russell Nolte, who wejust talked about.
There's an article by DanaClare, who inkfluence about the
allure of special editions andwhy you might do one here.
(54:10):
There's stuff about planningyour audience, about building
your mailing list, um, all sortsof things like that.
So and you know we've alreadytalked about I mean, obviously
you should be listening topodcasts like this one.
You should be, uh, on the oh I,I shifted.
I'm no longer answering whereto find me, I'm just more
answering how to find resourceson Kickstarter yeah, it's both,
it's all good join that Facebookgroup.
(54:32):
Find a discord community, find areddit thread like talk to
other people.
Carissa Andrews (54:36):
Um, yeah, yeah, I think that's go to
conferences and say hi, oh, forsure, if you ever see me in the
wild, please come say hi.
Oriana Leckert (54:44):
I've had people email me and be like we were
both at the same thing last week, but I didn't want to bother
Bother.
It is both my job and mypleasure.
You can tell I like to talk topeople.
It feeds my soul, so pleasehelp me.
Carissa Andrews (54:57):
Help you I can say from experience.
She always has a line out thedoor wanting to say hi to her.
Oriana Leckert (55:02):
So definitely take advantage.
Carissa Andrews (55:05):
It's so good.
Well, Oriana, thank you so muchfor being here today.
I really appreciate your timeand your energy and enthusiasm.
It's so much fun to talk to you.
Oriana Leckert (55:13):
This has been such an absolute delight.
Carissa Andrews (55:18):
I really appreciate you having me over.
I want to extend a huge thankyou to Oriana Lickert for
joining me today.
Her insights into Kickstarter'secosystem, especially for
authors and creators like us,are so valuable and, honestly,
this conversation reallycouldn't have come at a more
aligned time.
As you may know, I recentlywrapped up the Kickstarter
campaign for Write your Reality,my latest nonfiction book that
(55:38):
is blending quantummanifestation with author
strategy.
It's not just a book, it's amovement for authors who think
differently, feel deeply and areready to call in aligned
success without hustle.
And guess what?
The journey isn't over.
If you missed the campaignduring its live run, you can
still sneak in the back door.
Late pledges are open throughmid-June and that means you
(56:00):
still have time to grab some ofthe incredible bundles,
meditations and even lifetimeaccess to courses and
memberships that I've builtspecifically for authors like
you.
Just head over toauthorrevolutionorg forward
slash kickstarter to check outthe campaign or if you want the
full behind the scenes scoop onthis podcast episode head over
to authorrevolutionorg.
Carissa Andrew (56:20):
Forward slash 272.
Carissa Andrews (56:23):
Again, thank you so much for listening and
remember you're not just here towrite books, you're here to
write your reality.
Carissa Andrew (56:31):
So go forth and start your author revolution.
Thank you.
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