December 4, 2024 • 62 mins
In this inspiring episode, I sit down with Judy Baker, creator of the Buzzworthy Book Experience, to dive into the transformative world of book marketing. Whether you’re a nonfiction author looking to boost your brand or a fiction writer wanting to connect with readers, Judy’s actionable insights will help you create lasting impact. From creating buzz around your book to building authentic relationships, Judy shares her unique approach to making book marketing simple, fun, and effective.
Plus, I share some exciting news about the future of the Author Revolution Podcast and what’s coming next! Head to authorrevolution.org/264 for all the details, and don’t miss this engaging conversation!
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The High Vibe Author is the only transformational membership designed specifically for authors like you—those who are ready to break free from limitations & step into the abundant life they deserve. Click here to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Author Revolution podcast, where
change is not just embraced,it's celebrated.
I'm Carissa Andrews,international bestselling author
, indie author coach and yournavigator through the
ever-evolving landscape ofauthorship.
Are you ready to harness thepower of your mind and the
latest innovations in technologyfor your writing journey?
If you're passionate aboutmanifesting your dreams and
(00:25):
pioneering new writing frontiers, then you're in the perfect
place.
Here we merge the mystical wooof writing with the exciting
advancements of the modern world.
We dive into the realms ofmindset, manifestation and the
transformative magic that occurswhen you believe in the
impossible.
We also venture into the worldof futuristic technologies and
(00:46):
strategies, preparing you forthe next chapter in your author
career.
Every week, we explore new waysto revolutionize your writing
and publishing experience, fromAI to breakthrough thinking.
This podcast is your gateway toa world where creativity meets
innovation.
Whether you're penning yourfirst novel or expanding your
literary empire, whether you'rea devotee of the pen or a
(01:09):
digital storyteller, thispodcast is where your author
revolution gains momentum.
So join me in this journey tocontinue growth and
transformation.
It's time to redefine what itmeans to be an author in today's
dynamic world.
This is the Author RevolutionPodcast, and your author
revolution starts now.
Well, hey there guys.
(01:34):
Welcome back to the AuthorRevolution Podcast.
Today, I am thrilled tointroduce a guest whose energy,
expertise and passion forhelping authors is absolutely
infectious.
I had the pleasure ofconnecting with Judy Baker,
thanks in part to Brett Ridgway,who you might remember from a
recent episode, and let me tellyou, this conversation dives
deep into one of my favoritetopics marketing for authors.
(01:57):
Judy Baker is the creator ofthe Buzzworthy Book Experience
and she's a powerhouse in theworld of book marketing.
While her focus is often onnonfiction authors, the wisdom
she shares is universallyapplicable.
So, fiction authors, perk yourears, because this episode is
for you as well.
Judy is celebrated for herquirky, hands-on approach,
(02:21):
making the complex world of bookmarketing not only approachable
but fun, and I can tell youfrom experience in this
conversation she definitelymakes it fun.
So, from branding andvisibility strategies to
connecting with readers inauthentic ways, she's here to
inspire you and empower you.
Beyond her impressive resume,judy's story is deeply personal
(02:42):
and inspiring.
She's a hack collector, a loverof bees and a survivor who's
turned her own challenges into asource of Well.
Hi, judy, welcome to the AuthorRevolution podcast you won't
want to miss.
Let's dive into the magic ofmarketing with Judy Baker.
Well hi, judy, welcome to theAuthor Revolution podcast.
(03:12):
I'm really excited to bring youon to the show today.
So in my introduction I talkeda little bit about you, about
how I got to know you, but canyou tell my audience a little
bit about your journey and whatinspired you to help nonfiction
authors turn their books intomoneymakers?
Such a great introduction, bythe way.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Oh well, and that was really the impetus for me
getting involved with authors inthe first place.
I was working with a client whohad a book and another friend
of ours we were all in a, wewere all in a Vistage group, a
mastermind.
And the first person is anauthor who wrote about his dogs
(03:49):
after he retired from the FBI.
No, no less.
Goodness.
My friend and I are bothmarketing experts in different
fields, but he had a book ofcartoons.
And so our friend, the FBIagent, said you know, there's
going to be a meeting of the BayArea Independent Publishers.
They're having a conferencethis weekend.
(04:11):
Why don't you go?
You're going to learn a lot.
Well, we went, I walked in thedoor and I saw I'm going to try
to show you exactly what this ishow the authors.
They wanted to sell their books, but they were scared out of
their shoes.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I can imagine that very well.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes, We've all been there for some reason and I went
.
Well, I know how to sell otherthings, I know how to market,
and I don't market by saying buythis, buy that.
It's always about storytelling.
So, these are all storytellers.
So let me use my skills as amarketing strategist and I've
(04:55):
got a built-in audience becausethere's always people writing
books but they don't know how todo it.
So I got chills.
I just got chills, and I camehome and I looked at my client
list and they were all authors.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh, how funny is that ?
And you're like wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It didn't even dawn on me that every single one of
them I was doing other thingsfor them, but they were all
authors as well, and that wasthe impetus for me to start my
journey as a book coach, a bookmarketing coach, and now I'm
evolving again.
And now I'm looking at how doyou create buzz?
(05:37):
Because it's a buzz around you,your book and your business,
and I'm a writer myself.
But I know that until youpublish it, nobody knows what's
going on there.
But I'm changing the scenario.
I love that.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So what?
What was your interest thenaround the concept of buzz?
Were you seeing that a lot of?
I'm assuming that this ismostly for nonfiction authors,
but do you work with fictionauthors as well, like I do?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I do, but I focus on nonfiction because I'm I am a
business owner, I'm an author,but I'm a cross genre author, so
I have nonfiction, fiction,poetry, memoir all in there.
But it's a little.
You slant it a littledifferently because it's always
depending on who's your audience.
(06:26):
If I'm trying to sell you, abusiness owner, my poetry you
might look at me like what areyou talking about?
But if I tell you I've got abusiness solution for you and
it's going to help your business, your ears have now just perked
up and that's how you do it.
(06:47):
You talk to people.
Have you ever watched bees?
Mm-hmm, yeah, we've got agarden and we planted specific
plants to attract bees Because,as most people know, there was a
worldwide collapse of the beepopulation, and so we said, okay
(07:08):
, we're going to help them out.
Well, the bees don't go toevery single plant.
They look for the ones that cannourish them.
Oh, my goodness.
And so then they're collectingpollen from those plants, but
they're not just going to oneplant, they're going to multiple
plants, so they're taking thepollen from one, putting it
(07:31):
somewhere else where it can dogood, and they're getting pollen
that they are going to takeback to the hive to make honey.
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So good.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, think about that.
And there are specific insects,not just bees.
There are specific insects forevery plant that needs that kind
of pollination.
So we've got, we've got, theselittle tiny wasps that pollinate
our mulberry tree.
We've got our mulberry tree,we've got, you know, the bees.
(08:11):
But yeah, so you want to bespecific gather, gather, give
and make, make honey.
From what you're learning.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I love that.
I love that.
So what?
Where did your concept of the,the buzz, come from?
Is it literally the fact thatyou were witnessing the bees, or
was it like?
I want to be able to helpauthors understand this concept,
because I know from myperspective there are a lot of
authors who do not understandthe concept of buzz at all it
was a little bit of both um,because I noticed that too many
(08:42):
authors focus on their launchdate.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They don't focus on the long-term and seriously,
let's.
I'm looking.
Okay, Carissa, you probablyhave the same issue.
I see some books behind you,but I bet there's books over
here and there's books over hereand there's books maybe on the
floor.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
There's books everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Okay, and did the ones that aren't right on your
desk today go out of date?
Is the information in it not ofvalue to you?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, they're still perfectly good, they're
evergreen a value to you?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No, they're still perfectly good.
They're evergreen?
Yeah, absolutely.
And this idea of buzz is thatyou have your message and you
want to create curiosity aboutit, and you're doing it not just
when you're launching your book, or not just right before you
launch, not just right after youlaunch.
There should be some longevity,and so if you are just
(09:55):
sprinkling little bits ofinformation out there on a
consistent basis, you're goingto create buzz, and when you do
that now, your book isconnecting to people.
Over time, you're connecting topeople because you've got a
solution to their problem, andso, just like we're having this
conversation today, that's a wayto create buzz around your book
(10:19):
and your business.
And so I show authors they cando something all along the way
of their career and that thatbook has no expiration date.
So why not do it?
And, and even better, I wasfriends with Jim Horan, who
(10:41):
wrote the one page business plan, and I was friends with Joel
Friedlander, who wrote the selfpublishers companion, and they
made a career worth of businessand billions of dollars.
They had multiple things thatthey did, but they used that
(11:04):
core and they kept sharing themessage.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It that's so important.
Do you find that it's themindset first that you have to
work with?
When new authors come into yourpurview and they start working
with you, that it's like youreally have to get them out of?
That is a one and donemarketing launch versus like
this long-term thing.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, too too many people have been sold the
bill of goods that, oh my gosh,you've got to be a number one
best.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blahyeah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Rightels, who is?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
brilliant and he has sold a boatload of books.
Plus, he's been number one inseveral categories.
(11:56):
I think one of his books was in30 different categories.
But you know what he said.
Is that the same as the personwho has sold a million books and
is on the New York Timesbestseller list?
No, you can't compare the twoRight?
But what he focuses on, andwhat I really recommend too, is
(12:18):
you're looking at how to getother people talking about your
message talking about the book.
So that's what I think is farmore valuable.
And, yes, and switching up yourmindset, it is not just you
wrote this book and that's it,that it is the content of that
(12:43):
book that you want to be sharingwith people.
And then they're going oh, Iwant some of you to take home
with me or I want you in my hand.
That's when they buy your bookand they may never even open it
up because you know what'veshared your stuff, but they now
(13:06):
can go back and look it up.
They can tell other people aboutit.
So yeah, so I'm kind of theperson that says, all right, you
may be shy, I am, I admit it.
I am shy, I'm okay once Istarted, but getting me in the
room and opening my mouth isanother thing.
So you might be shy, but youneed to get over that, because
(13:29):
publishing means you are makingpublic.
You are making public and nowthe onus is on you to stimulate
those conversations, right?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I love that Do you think the biggest challenge,
then, that authors have inmonetizing their books is
getting to that point where theyare encouraging others to share
their work or talk about themLike cause.
To me, I feel like that is verymuch a difficulty, where you
have a book and you love it somuch, but everyone else is kind
of doing their own thing,especially authors Like we.
We tend to gravitate towardsother authors.
A book and you love it so much,but everyone else is kind of
doing their own thing.
Especially authors like we tendto gravitate towards other
(14:07):
authors, not necessarily towardsother readers, and so it's hard
to then get other authors toshare your work unless you're
like really doing big thingslike newsletter swaps or
something along those lines.
So what is your secret there?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
oh well, this, this is just.
It's so simple you might noteven think that you would just
ask huh, you just ask.
You just ask Dang it.
I know I want you to succeed, Iwant you to succeed.
So, if I am being the first andthe first person who said this
very clearly, jeff Goins, who's,I think he's going to be our,
(14:44):
he's going to be our keynote atthe Redwood Writers Conference
in October.
So great, I know so he said,give before you ask and do it
long before you ever even thinkthat you're going to write a
book.
So if you establish yourconnections with people, you're
(15:05):
not bugging them.
But, seriously, the numbersalso come into play.
So if I want to have, say, 100reviews of my book or I want
people to know about it, I'mgoing to probably ask around 10
times that many people, right,approximately.
(15:27):
But if you and I have been inconversation, we know each other
, we might be networking in thesame circles, and I say, carissa
, tell me how I can help you.
And I do that.
And I say, oh, carissa, I'vegot, I've got a solution for
(15:50):
this problem you mentioned.
Here it is, and I give that toyou.
So when I have my book ready togo, I'm going to say, carissa,
would you be, would you behelpful to me?
And I give you the stuff to doit.
I give you swipe copy, I giveyou images of my book, I offer
(16:14):
to be on your podcast and I'mlooking to help you fill your
podcast with other guests whoare awesome.
So strategic.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
That's so smart right and it seems so simple because
there's a lot of, like you said,shy or introverted authors who
just even myself I don'tconsider myself introverted, I
just consider myself probablytoo busy for my own good
sometimes, and so I need to likepull back enough to get
strategic like that and go.
I've talked to an awful lot ofpeople.
I could ask them for thesethings or I could, because I'm
(16:49):
helping people all the time butit just doesn't.
I'm more of a helper and not somuch of a asker, and it's so
hard for me to get beyond thatat times.
It's so weird.
I don't understand why that iseither.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, it tends to be more.
It's a feminine trait.
You know it's a feminine trait,you know, it just is there.
But what flipped me on that?
I went through a period where Iwas very ill and I said, okay,
I need to look at.
I put all this goodwill in thebank.
(17:23):
And I didn't even look look atit that way, but I had put all
that goodwill in the bank.
As Jeff said before, you ask,don't just say oh, would you
review my book, would you giveme a blurb?
And you've never done anythingfor somebody.
So I looked at this when I gotsick I said, oh, number one,
everyone's going to know becauseI'm.
Yeah, I was going to go bald inabout two weeks after I started
(17:46):
chemo and I said, okay, I'mgoing to be doing this, I'm
going to still be around, but Ineed some help.
Well, I had contributed in myown immediate community.
I contributed worldwide.
People helped me and I had toask and it was really not how I
(18:10):
normally show up, but because Idid that and I got to receive
the gift of their support,whether it was physical,
monetary, all different kinds ofthings, it made me appreciate
the fact that when you asksomeone to help you.
You are allowing them toexpress their care, their love
(18:36):
for you, and it made me go.
It's okay, and if people don'tsay yes, I'm okay with that too.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I'm not attached to the outcome and if people don't
say yes, I'm okay with that too.
I'm not attached to the outcome.
Right, yeah, right, I love that.
The gift of receiving their,their help.
I love that.
That's so good.
Oh, and it's such a beautifulway to to reframe it too,
because so often I think we'renot allowing people to help us.
We're not.
It's like we're blocking thatkind of abundance, and and then
(19:03):
we're wondering why aren't theroyalties coming in, why aren't
the readers coming in?
It's like, well, we're blockingall the abundance in so many
different ways.
So what can you do in order toopen those floodgates?
So good, yeah, that's so good.
Oh, my, oh, goodness.
Okay, so let's, I need to talkabout the three keys to
visibility, impact and income,because I know you're an expert
with this.
I love this concept.
So can you elaborate on whatthis means?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Well, if you think about it, people might find you
a lot of different ways.
They could find you.
They could find your book in abookstore.
Hopefully.
They could find your book on adirectory, a place to shop, and
(19:52):
that place to shop might beonline.
That's one way.
But what if someone told youabout that book?
Are you more likely to go getit?
Check it out, If someone toldyou about it?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Okay, at my local bookstore I love this, and there
was another bookstore that didthis as well there are staff
picks, so they I know this isexactly what they do and I will
do a visual for you.
Okay, sure, picture, there's abookshelf, here is an index card
(20:22):
, and then on here is oh, judesays this book is a great read.
It is a thriller.
You'll never guess the ending.
And check it out.
Okay, so this is now.
These are known as shelftalkers.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yep, from the wine industry, which I also was in.
So there's a shelf talkers.
Yep, yep, from the wineindustry, which I also was in,
so there's a shelf talker.
So I, if I go through thebookstore and I see one of these
, I'm going to look at that bookmore than I'm looking at all
the other ones same.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I used to work in a bookstore, so I can't I
completely get it.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
I love it.
Yes, librarians love it.
Yes, librarians are your bestfriend.
They will recommend books andpeople do go to libraries, and
we have some awesome librariesall across the world.
Ok, so that's these are.
These are word of mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Did you ever buy?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
a book because you heard about it on a podcast.
Because you heard about it on apodcast.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, yeah, mostly nonfiction for me.
I don't tend to listen tofiction as much on podcasts, I
don't know why Isn't thatinteresting?
But fiction I get all the timefrom like Facebook groups and
friends where I'm like okay, Imust read this book.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Exactly exactly.
And you know what Joanna Pennturned me on to Leigh Bardugo
Okay, yeah.
And you know what Joanna Pennturned me on to Leigh Bardugo
Okay yeah.
And I would never have.
I never would have found herwithout that recommendation.
Isn't that interesting?
So these are visibility things,okay.
So you want to get peopletalking about you.
(22:00):
You want to be visible.
If you're an author and you'rea nonfiction author, does it
have your book on your LinkedInprofile?
Because there's a section thatyou can put publications.
So you want to think aboutwhere am I already showing up
that?
where people know me and whatcan I do to help them know that
(22:26):
I'm an author?
Okay, so your profiles need tobe sharp and they need to be on
point.
You also want to be givingvalue all the time.
So what, if, what, if?
What if you took your book andyou took pieces of it and you
(22:47):
are popping it out in the world?
It could be in a speech, a livespeech in person on Zoom.
It could be at a conference.
It could be that you're takingthat and you're turning it into
a visual that you put intosocial posting.
So people are getting samplesof you all over the place.
(23:10):
You might do podcast guesting,which I think is like number one
.
Those are evergreen.
They're evergreen bits ofwisdom, of wisdom.
(23:30):
And if you're giving peoplesolutions that help them, what
about asking the people whoyou've helped to give you a
testimonial?
So you're getting third partyverification.
You're getting them to shareabout you and their group of
people is not all the samepeople you know.
So you're making these circlesthat keep going out and out and
(23:52):
out in the world so you share.
You are not being promotional.
You're not saying, oh, I'm thebest, whatever ever.
You're saying here's a problem,here's a solution, here's how
you can have that too, and ifyou want to know more, here's
how to contact me.
That's all I don't.
(24:15):
I am not a person who says, oh,slam money all over the place
to promote yourself.
Do it organically first, andthen decide if you want to put
money there.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that because there's
there's a value in like numberone.
Is there interest really inthis thing?
First?
Plus, you're building thatfoundation, like you said, with
the people that you're trying toconnect with.
That makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I love that.
Okay, so how, in your opinion?
How important is branding forauthors and what would you think
?
What would you tell them as thefirst step?
I know what it would be for meI was a graphic designer in a
past life but I would love toknow your interest and your take
on it.
Right, so what, what, what?
What should authors be thinkingabout when it comes to their
brand?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Well, look at other books that are like yours, or
authors you feel that are likeyou, and I'm not saying you want
to copy them, but you want to.
There there are some veryspecific things that happen.
(25:24):
If you go and look at books ina genre, there will be
similarities and there's goingto be some real big standouts.
So I want you to think aboutwhat do you stand for?
What are your unerringprinciples?
Who are you in the world?
What do you want to be knownfor?
(25:45):
And when it comes to branding,because, yes, we're yeah, we're
not past life graphic designerswe're still doing it.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
We are still doing it , but I'm only doing it for me
now, I'm not doing it for otherpeople, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But look at your colors.
Do they resonate?
Not just that you like them, dothey resonate with your
audience?
I always start with talk toyour readers.
What do they need, what do theylike?
What do they notice?
Need what do they like, what dothey notice?
(26:28):
So look at the colors that areappropriate for the age range,
look at the fonts that areappropriate for that group.
That will catch their eye butare also within in the circle of
oh yeah, I can see that that'sa non-fiction book.
It's got.
I've got two books on my deskright now and they both have
(26:50):
very big titles.
Typography matters theconsistency of your type, the
consistency of your colors.
So you're thinking of yourbrand.
If my colors and I'm switchingmy colors right now and I'm
switching up my brand so blackand white with probably a pop of
(27:16):
either pink or red, which isfine, because these are mostly
black and yellow, I can't wearyellow, I mean not even.
So you've got to think about.
You have to think about thattoo.
Don't pick colors in your brandthat you want to go every time
you look at them.
So the brand needs to embodyyou, embody your book, and it
(27:37):
should be something that istimeless, not just oh.
Right now, the hot new thing islet's put zigzaggy whatever.
No, your book is going to bethere for a while and you want
to feel comfortable with it fora while.
So look at you.
Look at you.
You're part of the brand.
(27:57):
Look at the statement you'remaking and make sure the type
and the colors amplify thatrather than diminish them.
And probably, if you're a firsttime author and you're looking
at your book cover design, yourname is not the biggest thing on
(28:18):
the cover.
Your name is going to be there,but your solution is the big
thing and think about writing.
Think about it too with books.
This is probably not a one anddone.
This is part of this is thefirst one and you're going to be
doing some others.
So if you were doing a series,what do you want to live with?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
right, right, that's so key.
It really is when, typically,when I am writing a series or
planning a series, mostly infiction, um, I will plan out the
whole series, not only for the.
You know the story arc andwhat's happening in each book,
but I'll actually sit down andthen do the entire cover series
at the same time so that thecovers are all matching, they
all have the similar vibe andyou're you're in that same flow
(29:04):
of it.
But that's me as a, an authorwho designs.
But it's helpful, if I think,if authors do the same thing and
can reach out to their coverdesigner and say, even if it's
like the first two or threebooks, can you get covers that
are matching?
Kind of puts you in thatheadspace.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah well it does, and you may not stay with
exactly what you started with.
That's the other thing too.
It's okay to re-brand your bookin a way.
Well, I shouldn't say justrebrand it.
What I'm really saying is, ifyou start out and you you know
you've got a cover and you'rereally enthusiastic about it.
(29:42):
But what if something reallydoes change radically?
Yeah, it's okay, recover yourbook, and if you look at any,
any book that's been out therefor a while, that is still a
bestseller.
I have.
I have always back here behindme somewhere I have the seven
(30:03):
habits of highly effectivepeople.
It hasn't just had one cover.
Yeah, it's had a differentcovers over the years.
The message is still the same,but the way it's being shown is
a little different.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Sometimes covers stay the same forever and ever and
ever.
Sometimes they don't, andsometimes, like with a series,
you may go back.
Maybe you published it 10, 15years ago.
You may go back and say youknow what, it needs a little bit
of freshening up so that itstill looks contemporary.
And you go back and do it.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it's fun too, like
there are romance authors whohave like one type of book for
the ebook and one type of coverfor the paperbacks.
You know, it's like just incase you know all the things,
just to make sure that you canbe standing in public and still
have your book out there.
So there's all sorts ofdifferent ways to be able to do
that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I agree with you on that 100%.
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Okay.
So when it comes to impact,what does that part mean for
authors, like how can theymeasure the impact that they're
making with their books?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Oh, this is a good one.
Think about starting from.
What are your goals?
So, if I'm writing a bookbecause I want to be known as an
expert, how would I measurethat?
Well, it could be that how manytimes am I being asked to speak
at an event, virtual or inperson?
(31:34):
It could be how many companiesare hiring me to come in and
train people using thismethodology.
So you've got to have an ideain your head.
What are your measurablemarkers?
And it's different for each ofyou.
(31:54):
If your, if your goal is justto sell books, you're missing a
lot of money.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, you got to think beyond just this book.
Is it turning into a course?
Is it turning into a podcast?
Is it turning into a systemthat you are selling?
You got it, you got to knowthat.
So those are some of the thingsI think are really critical to
(32:24):
know.
And on the credibility side,are there people quoting you?
You've said something brilliant.
Are they quoting you?
Are you making an effort to notjust say something once, but in
different ways?
Some people listen, some peoplelook, some people want to see a
(32:49):
video.
You can do a LinkedIn live onone chapter of your book.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So good, yeah, yeah, that's so smart, I think, for
for me too, there's a little bitof and I don't know if this was
just ingrained in me that Idon't like repetition personally
, and so it's like then when I'm, when I'm doing different
things, that's like I have tophysically force myself to do it
again, because I know, I know,logically, I know what you just
said is is true, and and yet forme I'm like, but I've already
(33:18):
done it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Okay, how do?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
authors get over that .
Is it literally like give it toa PA so they have to deal with
it?
It's no longer you.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
That can be a really good solution.
So you're the creator and onlyyou can come up with that part
of the equation.
But you, if, if, if you're likeCarissa and myself once we've
done it, we've done it, we're onto something else, right?
Well, there are other people,and in a past life that used to
be me.
(33:52):
I used to be the person who wasthe support person, who did all
that, who distributed theinformation, who made those
follow up calls, who reached outto people the information, who
made those follow-up calls, whoreached out to people.
Hire somebody.
If that's not your thing, youcan find people who are reliable
and you may not just have oneperson, so someone who is just
(34:14):
an ace, say, on Instagram, butthey might suck at creating
newsletters for you or sendingout email.
Get people who are really goodat the thing that you need them
to do.
Do it as a project, rather thansaying I'm just hiring somebody
and they're going to do all ofmy.
(34:35):
No, that might happen down theroad, but try them out first as
a project person down the road,but try them out first as a
project person.
And that project oh, even evenmy friend, ted Perdomo, who
wrote the ultimate LinkedInguide and it's there's three.
There's three editions of that.
(34:56):
Okay, even he did this thefirst time.
He had one virtual assistant gothrough and pick out quotes.
Then he said, oh man, this islike boring or it could be
better.
Not that it was boring, but itcould be better.
And so then he had like threedifferent people go through the
(35:18):
third edition and so then hecould pick and choose.
They were all trained to speakin his voice, but they, each
person, had a differentviewpoint, so they would find
this was interesting to them.
So you've got to think aboutthat.
It's not about, it's not aboutyou, it's about the reader.
(35:40):
So what do they want to know?
So if there's those things thatyou know will make a difference
, get people to help you.
Don't try to do it all yourself, because there's like way too
much.
Start by learning how to do it,and then you can have
procedures and share that andget it done.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that I'm curious to know what your idea
is with AI, because I know like,with something like that, my
brain instantly goes oh, I couldput my manuscript into ChatGPT,
for instance, and be like okay,chat, you're the best marketing
professional on the planet.
This is my customer, my idealcustomer avatar and what they're
looking for.
Pick some really awesome quotesout of this chapter so that we
(36:21):
could use it for marketing Like.
Would you be like ooh, no, orare you like yeah, why not?
Like what's your thoughtprocess on AI right now?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Well, I happen to be AI positive In the respect that
you just said.
Ask for suggestions, yeah yeahyeah, yeah, and there are
different large language models,so not, they're not all equal,
right, some are better thanothers and, as an author,
depending on what you're doing.
(36:51):
So if you were looking to domarketing, um 4.0, which is now
free, I have.
I have a paid account too withopening.
That is just perfect.
You would say this is myaudience, I would like help with
my marketing and, and you know,give me suggestions.
(37:13):
Here's a chunk of it.
Now, I don't know if you canput the whole thing in in open
AI.
You can in Claude.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
You can in a custom GPT, but it's still not.
Unless you point it to aspecific area of the PDF, it's
still not great finding it.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Exactly so you want what I'm suggesting you do with
any of the AI tools and thereare a myriad of them try them
out.
Take a chunk of your text andtry them out and do exactly what
you said.
Give us very specific prompt,but it's iterative.
(37:51):
If you and I were talking andyou said, okay, here's a chapter
from my book, pick out quotes,well, I might do that.
And then we're going to haveanother conversation and you're
going to go, oh, could you focusmore on, say, for instance,
could you focus more on how thismakes money?
And then I'd go back throughagain.
(38:14):
And so you're refining theconversation.
You are using the AI as anassistant, so I look at it as AI
assisted authors tools that canhelp you.
But for marketing, oh my gosh,you can.
Pretty much.
You could do your back coverfairly easily using AI, because
(38:39):
you're saying here's, you know,here's an, here's the outline of
my book and how, how you're themarketing expert and here's my
target.
You put in the informationabout your target.
Give, give me some ideas for myback cover.
That's so.
It's a, it's a conversation,and so you can generate.
(39:00):
You can generate emailsequences which you will then go
and tweak.
You're not going to just takeit whole hog, but you can
generate email sequences, youcan do your back cover, you can
do a series of posts, instagram,linkedin if you're still using
(39:21):
X, which I'm not so experiment,that's kind of my watchword.
Experiment, Don't just try oneand go away.
See what comes up.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I am so in agreement.
Yeah, I'll continue.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And you've tried different models and there are
ones you like and ones you don'tlike because they don't sound
right to you.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, and sometimes they're easier than others or it
just works better in your brainversus another one.
There's so many tools that areout there now that will use
iterations of, like ChatGPT forinstance, but they're giving you
smaller little context windowsand that just doesn't work for
my brain.
I like that really big open, uh, open ai version like.
I like chat gpt and how itworks.
(40:08):
I like claude and how it works,but for different things, and
so it's.
It's very interesting to justsee how they're kind of evolving
and shaping things.
But the more specific we canunderstand how to prompt them
and I don't even know if promptis like even the best word
anymore.
It's.
It's like the best way we canhave this conversation, this
iterative conversation, knowingthat we're going to go back and
(40:29):
forth until we get what we want.
It's like it's so it takes thepressure out of oh, I have to
make sure this prompt is perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I haven't come up with the perfect prompt yet.
Oh, in fact yesterday I was, Iwas.
I decided I wanted to createsome images and I I put in my
prompt and it didn't quite getit.
So then I did another one andit it was.
(40:58):
Over time I got closer to whatI wanted and even though I
thought I was very specific, youhave to learn it is, it's
learning another language.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It really really is.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
And, yeah, not all of the tools are equal and you
have to be comfortable, but,like anything else, I can still.
Well, this isn't.
These are two tools I willhighly recommend to every writer
.
If you're not using themalready, you probably are
(41:32):
missing out on some stuffGrammarly and Pro Writing Aid
and they're not the same and youhave to see which one you
resonate more with.
But they will help you with thestuff that is probably less
important in your brain, but itis at the end, but it isn't
(41:54):
while you're creating.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Right, I agree, and those are technically both AI
enhanced tools as well.
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
And so when people say, oh my God, this guy's
falling AI is coming, yes, well,you know what you look.
Do you have a smartphone?
Yes, that's AI.
I like the idea that thesemodels are becoming more natural
language, and so, instead ofhaving just like when we used to
(42:24):
have to do Google searches andyou had to just ask, oh my God,
you had to think how is Googlethinking about this, so I can
ask the question to get theresult that I'm looking for,
right, yeah, oh that used todrive me.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's so nice because now you can ask the same
question you would have askedGoogle, except do it to chat GPT
and find out what the heck isgoing on, faster than like
having to search through a wholebunch of search results.
So great, yeah, love that.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Using it for research .
I think that's the other thingthat I strongly recommend for AI
Use it for research.
If you're doing historical, ifyou want to know, oh, what did
other people say about the topicyou're writing about, whether
you're doing fiction ornonfiction.
Doing research, you can get alot of value.
(43:10):
But you also still need to besure you're checking Are these
real links?
Is this real or is it ahallucination?
But that's getting, that'sstarting to start.
What do I want to say?
It's less frequent that you'regetting these really garbagey
hallucinations.
You're getting, you're gettingreal information that can, that
(43:32):
can support you.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
I've seen that over the past year too, because I've
been teaching AI for authorsprobably since about this time
last year actually and it'sgotten so much better at not no
longer hallucinating.
There are times where it willkind of get hung up and maybe
start to take longer to processthings, but the hallucination
(43:54):
aspect of it is is definitelydiminished a lot.
Yeah, even with the custom gptsand things like that it's been
so much easier to work with.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
It's great.
Well, the tools keep improving.
The more we use them, thebetter they get.
And if you even remember backwhen you maybe first started
using Amazon as a search tool,because it is, Amazon is a
search engine.
Google is a search engine.
Youtube is a search engine.
Google is a search engine.
Youtube is a search engine.
Any directory where you'relistening on, you know to a
(44:26):
podcast.
Those are directories.
Use them.
They are search engines.
Spotify has an oh my God,spotify.
When I switched to Spotify forlistening, I was amazed because
I'd been using Pandora name.
I was amazed because I'd beenusing Pandora, I'd used Apple
(44:47):
podcasts and music, but Spotifyhad a better engine for not only
finding things, but it was, itwas paying attention to my
preferences and it would give mesuggestions that made more
sense to me, suggestions thatmade more sense to me.
(45:07):
And it wasn't so repetitivebecause I found I found most
other podcast directories boringand I, like you, I was a little
fresh sometimes, but I also.
I can also save what I love andget notified when there's new
stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
That's so good.
Yeah, that's so smart.
I have not been on Spotify fora podcast.
I should actually look into it,because I use Apple still when
I'm listening to podcasts at themoment, but it's because I have
Apple everything and so to meit just makes sense.
But, suggestion wise, I think Iwould like those new
suggestions, because that's partof the reason why I ended up on
Podmatch actually this pastyear, where it seems like all
(45:45):
the author podcasts it's almostlike everyone's interviewing the
same people and they're havingthe same conversations.
I'm like I don't need to justbe repeating what everyone else
is doing.
I want to talk to new andinsightful people, right, so it
was like I need to do somethingdifferent because this is not me
.
Yeah, so I'm interested.
(46:05):
I'm going to have to check thatout now and see what it can
come up with, to see what myactual interests are versus what
I'm just listening to, becauseI love these particular podcasts
.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Exactly, and people should subscribe to your podcast
because I will.
I'm I'm a fan, I'm not just aguest, I am a fan.
You bring on people and the waythat you interview is well, you
know, you're thoughtful, you'rethinking about, you're not just
(46:35):
doing oh, I've got fivequestions I'm going to ask.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Oh, my God, questions I'm going to ask.
Oh, my God, you know it's outof misery right now.
You, I've been on podcastswhere I've been interviewed,
where it's like that and you'relike what just happened?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Like okay, yeah, oh, my God, you know I want it
should be a conversation.
Let's see what we're doing withthis.
So I love your podcast becauseof that, because you always
bring really quality informationto your audience and because
you care.
You really package it in a in away that it's Great to listen
(47:20):
to, great to refer to.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
So I really I appreciate that too.
That means a lot.
I love that.
Okay, so I got to.
I obviously we talked about AI,so I want to get your your
concept on this about trends too, because I would love to from
your marketer's perspective,other than AI, which is so huge
and it's just revolutionized ourlandscape.
But what do you see as thingsthat authors should be paying
attention to in terms of trendscoming up?
(47:47):
Is there anything else,anything that's like on the
horizon that we're all kind ofgoing to get sidelined by?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
oh, that's interesting.
Well, the biggest trend I amseeing more and more authors are
selling directly to theircustomers.
So what I'm talking about.
There are several ways this canhappen.
(48:15):
We're seeing a bigger number ofauthors using crowdfunding as
their marketing campaign.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I'm actually going to be doing that this fall.
Yeah, with my next nonfictiontitle, actually, okay.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, it's a marketing campaign and it
doesn't end once you're funded.
That's the thing.
So this is a newer thing.
So you do the, you do thecrowdfunding, you've got your
different levels ofparticipation and so you get,
say, you get funded.
Well, you can keep thatcrowdfunding campaign open after
(48:59):
the book is published.
But people get goodies, theyget more goodies before the book
is published.
But people get goodies, theyget more goodies before the book
is published.
So you use that foundationalmarketing campaign and can keep
it moving.
And we are seeing people notjust doing that, they are
(49:21):
looking at well, what if I wrotethis book and what if I offer
chunks of it?
So we're seeing serializationreappear.
It used to be a thing back inCharles Stinson's day, but we're
seeing, we're seeing moreauthors do that with both
fiction and nonfiction.
Interesting Like pay as you go.
(49:43):
So you might, you might offerhere's stuff through Patreon or
here's stuff through Payhip orwhatever subscription model
you're using, and so, as peopleconsume things, then they're
buying the next thing and thenext thing, because they want
more.
You know what, instead of a $20book or $30 book, you've now
(50:06):
turned it into Okay, guys limitreally yeah yeah, so you're
making more and bundling rightand what I'm talking about is do
an event.
Do an event you offer, you'reinviting people to attend an
event and you are including thebook in the price of admission.
(50:30):
Do you think you're going toget more people to come to your
event, or physical, or online?
So those are the.
Those are, those are a coupleof the trends.
So it's it's more about sellingdirect, because when you do
that, what happens?
I now have your email address.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yes, yes, and a lot of times.
If you're doing it in personnow you have that like
face-to-face repertoire too.
You guys understand each other.
There's that, no, like trustfactor.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Exactly, and I mean I've done it.
I've done it myself as aconsumer.
I went to an event.
Gretchen Rubin was releasingone of her books and she was
going to be at a bookstore inSan Francisco which is an hour
and a half from door to doorbecause driving and parking
(51:23):
Right but my husband and I went.
It was so much fun.
I got to meet her in person, Igot to shake her hand, she got
to shake her hand, she got tosign my book and I was thrilled.
But you know what?
That was I.
It was worth it to me to pay todo that.
So if you're having a booklaunch, yeah, no, what if you're
(51:44):
giving a talk and your book ispart of the ticket, You're going
to sell more books and get morepeople in the room.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Right, absolutely.
I've even heard of people doingthat sort of thing at Barnes
Noble.
I mean, I don't know if BarnesNoble will allow the ticket part
to be part of it, but yougiving a talk about something
that's related to your books andthen your books are there for
sale too.
I mean there's so manydifferent ways to do it.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
That for sale too.
I mean, there's so manydifferent ways to do it that's
so smart.
There are, there are.
So I think.
I think we're just seeing moreinnovation and I think what is
happening to what?
Because you were a designer andyou may have gone through this
back in the day when I was usingQuark oh, yes, okay, before
InDesign.
So Quark was a really good tool.
So there was Quark andPageMaker and I used both of
them, but I mostly use Quark.
(52:37):
Well, quark was notorious forhaving the snarkiest customer
service in the world.
So then InDesign came on thescene.
Two things happened.
They offered a free versionwhen you bought your new Mac
computer and I was like, I'll dothat.
I said, well, I'll try it out.
(52:57):
And, by the way, oh, indesigncan read your core files.
So I tried it and I went oh, Ihave been an Adobe fan forever,
I've been in there, I've been inthere, oh've been in there.
Um, oh God, I'm trying to thinkof the word, right, it's
escaping me.
I was in their um, testinggroups focus group.
(53:20):
So I was a focus groupparticipant for several uh
different products.
So I knew, and they did, andthey did uh, user groups which
you could go to and I went tothat and they were always giving
away swag.
So Adobe already had my heart.
I opened up my first Quark filein InDesign.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
I never look back.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
I'm done and I used to teach Quark, no less, so I
thought it was really funny.
So think about are people goingto gravitate to the people who
are nice to them, who are givingthem goodies all the time, who
love them back?
So it's this customer servicemodel that now, and I don't even
(54:04):
know if customer service is, itis customer service because
you're serving your.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Because you're serving your, yeah, so if you do
that, people will follow youand they will spread the love,
because you love them first.
I love that.
That's so good.
That's so good, okay.
So, judy, what is next for youand what's your mission when it
comes to helping non-fictionauthors?
Is there anything reallyexciting on the horizon that we
need to be cheerleading you for?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Absolutely.
I have now started doing whatI'm doing this twice a month.
Right now it's called the BookBuzz Cafe.
Love it, I know, and it's aboutan hour.
I'm going to say it's about anhour because sometimes I get to
talking, but it's not just metalking, I'm going to I share a
(54:51):
tool, tip or concept each timewe go through it in relative
depth.
This last one that I did wasabout how do you create your
custom YouTube channel, becausea lot of people don't even know
that you can do such a thing.
People don't even know that youcan do such a thing, right.
(55:12):
So I showed, I demoed how to dothis, and and the reason we did
it is because one of the peoplewho attended the cafe the
previous session said this iswhat they wanted to know.
So I went through it.
People ask questions along theway because I don't just go.
Oh, we're going to go blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No, I show it and I show it onmy stuff.
(55:32):
So I was rebranding this didthat.
So the Book Plus Cafe is aplace for authors to come with
their questions about marketingalso, to share their wins and to
meet other people who are in asimilar situation Because, of
course, as we talked aboutearlier, if you do it together,
(55:54):
if I help you out, you're likelyto help me out when I need help
.
So we are building a communityat the Book Buzz Cafe.
And yeah, and so that'shappening.
And I am working on my workbook, which I have to add some more
stuff to it because I did it ina in a course.
(56:16):
So the the buzzworthy bookblueprint workbook is almost
done.
I will have that up for salesoon and then people can buy
that with an hour of my coachingtime.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Where will they be able to find that?
On your website?
Are they finding it on aKickstarter Like how are you
launching this thing?
Speaker 2 (56:42):
I'm a little bit afraid to do a Kickstarter for
my very, very first thing.
I still make books, but Ihaven't quite committed to doing
it thing.
I still make books, but Ihaven't quite committed to doing
it.
So information will always beon my website, which is
bookmarketingmentorcom.
I'll always have all thosegoodies up there, and if you go
(57:02):
there now, there's a big buttonthat tells you how to get the
buzz so that you can then attenda Book Buzz Cafe, which I said
is free.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
That is so good.
I can't wait to join one ofthose.
I'm going to have to go look atmy calendar and find out which
ones are open so that I can join.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
I would love to have you in the room because I want
other experts in the room toshare their wisdom.
That's the way I roll.
I like other people.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
It's so much more fun that way too, because then you
can have a more dynamicconversation.
You know so good Good.
Well, Judy, thank you so muchfor being on the show today and
sharing your wisdom.
It's been such a joy speakingwith you and being able to like
get into like some of the nittygritty of these things so good.
Book marketing is one of themost fascinating aspects of
publishing, in my personalopinion.
(57:51):
I think a lot of authors dothink that as well, so thank you
for being here.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
Oh, I appreciate it so much.
Thank you, Carissa.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Wow, what an incredible conversation with
Judy Baker.
Her insights into bookmarketing are truly inspiring
and I hope you're walking awaywith as many takeaways as I am
Now.
Judy's passion for helpingauthors shine is really
unmatched, and I'm so gratefulwe had the chance to dive into
this with her today.
So be sure to check out theshow notes for all of the ways
that you can connect with herand learn more about her
(58:24):
fantastic resources.
But before we wrap up, I have abit of news to share.
As you know, when we approachthe end of 2024, the Author
Revolution podcast will be goingon hiatus after the final
episode, which will launch onChristmas Day.
But don't worry, this isn'tgoodbye.
It's more like a shift in focus.
If you caught last week'sepisode, you know that I'm super
(58:45):
excited to announce that I'llbe launching a brand new podcast
, a brand new business endeavor.
I'm shifting gears and it's allgoing to be dedicated to the
NeuroDivergent Manifestor.
Everything kicks off January1st Now.
This podcast is going toexplore manifestation through
the lens of neurodivergence, andI can't wait to dive into this
journey with you.
(59:05):
There's so much I've beenwanting to share, so many
different insights andperceptions and things that I
would love to be able to talkabout, but they're not quite a
good fit for authorship and Ifelt very stuck or very closed
in boxed in, whatever the wordis and I want to be able to just
explore the way that I feellike exploring.
So if you've loved followingalong here, I would be honored
(59:29):
to have you join me there.
Check out the show notes forall of the details, including
the links to Jodi's amazing workand the social media platforms.
The website is in process.
I'm working on that right nowand I've actually changed the
name of the website.
It's not ready to go.
It's not NeuroDivergentManifestor.
I had a really cool insight inthe middle of the night where my
(59:51):
tagline for that particularbrand is all going to be
Manifest Differently.
So the website ismanifestdifferentlycom.
So hang tight.
The website's in the buildprocess.
We're going to have lots ofcool stuff coming out of that
direction for 2025.
But in the meantime, if you'dlike to get the transcript, all
the links, like we justdiscussed, head over to
(01:00:13):
authorrevolutionorg.
Forward slash 264 to getstarted.
Thank you so much for being apart of this amazing community
and, as always, go forth andstart your author revolution.
We'll see you next time you.
Welcome to the Author Revolution podcast, where
change is not just embraced,it's celebrated.
I'm Carissa Andrews,international bestselling author
, indie author coach and yournavigator through the
ever-evolving landscape ofauthorship.
Are you ready to harness thepower of your mind and the
latest innovations in technologyfor your writing journey?
If you're passionate aboutmanifesting your dreams and
(00:25):
pioneering new writing frontiers, then you're in the perfect
place.
Here we merge the mystical wooof writing with the exciting
advancements of the modern world.
We dive into the realms ofmindset, manifestation and the
transformative magic that occurswhen you believe in the
impossible.
We also venture into the worldof futuristic technologies and
(00:46):
strategies, preparing you forthe next chapter in your author
career.
Every week, we explore new waysto revolutionize your writing
and publishing experience, fromAI to breakthrough thinking.
This podcast is your gateway toa world where creativity meets
innovation.
Whether you're penning yourfirst novel or expanding your
literary empire, whether you'rea devotee of the pen or a
(01:09):
digital storyteller, thispodcast is where your author
revolution gains momentum.
So join me in this journey tocontinue growth and
transformation.
It's time to redefine what itmeans to be an author in today's
dynamic world.
This is the Author RevolutionPodcast, and your author
revolution starts now.
Well, hey there guys.
(01:34):
Welcome back to the AuthorRevolution Podcast.
Today, I am thrilled tointroduce a guest whose energy,
expertise and passion forhelping authors is absolutely
infectious.
I had the pleasure ofconnecting with Judy Baker,
thanks in part to Brett Ridgway,who you might remember from a
recent episode, and let me tellyou, this conversation dives
deep into one of my favoritetopics marketing for authors.
(01:57):
Judy Baker is the creator ofthe Buzzworthy Book Experience
and she's a powerhouse in theworld of book marketing.
While her focus is often onnonfiction authors, the wisdom
she shares is universallyapplicable.
So, fiction authors, perk yourears, because this episode is
for you as well.
Judy is celebrated for herquirky, hands-on approach,
(02:21):
making the complex world of bookmarketing not only approachable
but fun, and I can tell youfrom experience in this
conversation she definitelymakes it fun.
So, from branding andvisibility strategies to
connecting with readers inauthentic ways, she's here to
inspire you and empower you.
Beyond her impressive resume,judy's story is deeply personal
(02:42):
and inspiring.
She's a hack collector, a loverof bees and a survivor who's
turned her own challenges into asource of Well.
Hi, judy, welcome to the AuthorRevolution podcast you won't
want to miss.
Let's dive into the magic ofmarketing with Judy Baker.
Well hi, judy, welcome to theAuthor Revolution podcast.
(03:12):
I'm really excited to bring youon to the show today.
So in my introduction I talkeda little bit about you, about
how I got to know you, but canyou tell my audience a little
bit about your journey and whatinspired you to help nonfiction
authors turn their books intomoneymakers?
Such a great introduction, bythe way.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Oh well, and that was really the impetus for me
getting involved with authors inthe first place.
I was working with a client whohad a book and another friend
of ours we were all in a, wewere all in a Vistage group, a
mastermind.
And the first person is anauthor who wrote about his dogs
(03:49):
after he retired from the FBI.
No, no less.
Goodness.
My friend and I are bothmarketing experts in different
fields, but he had a book ofcartoons.
And so our friend, the FBIagent, said you know, there's
going to be a meeting of the BayArea Independent Publishers.
They're having a conferencethis weekend.
(04:11):
Why don't you go?
You're going to learn a lot.
Well, we went, I walked in thedoor and I saw I'm going to try
to show you exactly what this ishow the authors.
They wanted to sell their books, but they were scared out of
their shoes.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I can imagine that very well.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yes, We've all been there for some reason and I went
.
Well, I know how to sell otherthings, I know how to market,
and I don't market by saying buythis, buy that.
It's always about storytelling.
So, these are all storytellers.
So let me use my skills as amarketing strategist and I've
(04:55):
got a built-in audience becausethere's always people writing
books but they don't know how todo it.
So I got chills.
I just got chills, and I camehome and I looked at my client
list and they were all authors.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh, how funny is that ?
And you're like wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
It didn't even dawn on me that every single one of
them I was doing other thingsfor them, but they were all
authors as well, and that wasthe impetus for me to start my
journey as a book coach, a bookmarketing coach, and now I'm
evolving again.
And now I'm looking at how doyou create buzz?
(05:37):
Because it's a buzz around you,your book and your business,
and I'm a writer myself.
But I know that until youpublish it, nobody knows what's
going on there.
But I'm changing the scenario.
I love that.
Yeah, that's how that happened.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So what?
What was your interest thenaround the concept of buzz?
Were you seeing that a lot of?
I'm assuming that this ismostly for nonfiction authors,
but do you work with fictionauthors as well, like I do?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I do, but I focus on nonfiction because I'm I am a
business owner, I'm an author,but I'm a cross genre author, so
I have nonfiction, fiction,poetry, memoir all in there.
But it's a little.
You slant it a littledifferently because it's always
depending on who's your audience.
(06:26):
If I'm trying to sell you, abusiness owner, my poetry you
might look at me like what areyou talking about?
But if I tell you I've got abusiness solution for you and
it's going to help your business, your ears have now just perked
up and that's how you do it.
(06:47):
You talk to people.
Have you ever watched bees?
Mm-hmm, yeah, we've got agarden and we planted specific
plants to attract bees Because,as most people know, there was a
worldwide collapse of the beepopulation, and so we said, okay
(07:08):
, we're going to help them out.
Well, the bees don't go toevery single plant.
They look for the ones that cannourish them.
Oh, my goodness.
And so then they're collectingpollen from those plants, but
they're not just going to oneplant, they're going to multiple
plants, so they're taking thepollen from one, putting it
(07:31):
somewhere else where it can dogood, and they're getting pollen
that they are going to takeback to the hive to make honey.
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So good.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, think about that.
And there are specific insects,not just bees.
There are specific insects forevery plant that needs that kind
of pollination.
So we've got, we've got, theselittle tiny wasps that pollinate
our mulberry tree.
We've got our mulberry tree,we've got, you know, the bees.
(08:11):
But yeah, so you want to bespecific gather, gather, give
and make, make honey.
From what you're learning.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I love that.
I love that.
So what?
Where did your concept of the,the buzz, come from?
Is it literally the fact thatyou were witnessing the bees, or
was it like?
I want to be able to helpauthors understand this concept,
because I know from myperspective there are a lot of
authors who do not understandthe concept of buzz at all it
was a little bit of both um,because I noticed that too many
(08:42):
authors focus on their launchdate.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
They don't focus on the long-term and seriously,
let's.
I'm looking.
Okay, Carissa, you probablyhave the same issue.
I see some books behind you,but I bet there's books over
here and there's books over hereand there's books maybe on the
floor.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
There's books everywhere.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Okay, and did the ones that aren't right on your
desk today go out of date?
Is the information in it not ofvalue to you?
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, they're still perfectly good, they're
evergreen a value to you?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
No, they're still perfectly good.
They're evergreen?
Yeah, absolutely.
And this idea of buzz is thatyou have your message and you
want to create curiosity aboutit, and you're doing it not just
when you're launching your book, or not just right before you
launch, not just right after youlaunch.
There should be some longevity,and so if you are just
(09:55):
sprinkling little bits ofinformation out there on a
consistent basis, you're goingto create buzz, and when you do
that now, your book isconnecting to people.
Over time, you're connecting topeople because you've got a
solution to their problem, andso, just like we're having this
conversation today, that's a wayto create buzz around your book
(10:19):
and your business.
And so I show authors they cando something all along the way
of their career and that thatbook has no expiration date.
So why not do it?
And, and even better, I wasfriends with Jim Horan, who
(10:41):
wrote the one page business plan, and I was friends with Joel
Friedlander, who wrote the selfpublishers companion, and they
made a career worth of businessand billions of dollars.
They had multiple things thatthey did, but they used that
(11:04):
core and they kept sharing themessage.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
It that's so important.
Do you find that it's themindset first that you have to
work with?
When new authors come into yourpurview and they start working
with you, that it's like youreally have to get them out of?
That is a one and donemarketing launch versus like
this long-term thing.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, too too many people have been sold the
bill of goods that, oh my gosh,you've got to be a number one
best.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blahyeah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Rightels, who is?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
brilliant and he has sold a boatload of books.
Plus, he's been number one inseveral categories.
(11:56):
I think one of his books was in30 different categories.
But you know what he said.
Is that the same as the personwho has sold a million books and
is on the New York Timesbestseller list?
No, you can't compare the twoRight?
But what he focuses on, andwhat I really recommend too, is
(12:18):
you're looking at how to getother people talking about your
message talking about the book.
So that's what I think is farmore valuable.
And, yes, and switching up yourmindset, it is not just you
wrote this book and that's it,that it is the content of that
(12:43):
book that you want to be sharingwith people.
And then they're going oh, Iwant some of you to take home
with me or I want you in my hand.
That's when they buy your bookand they may never even open it
up because you know what'veshared your stuff, but they now
(13:06):
can go back and look it up.
They can tell other people aboutit.
So yeah, so I'm kind of theperson that says, all right, you
may be shy, I am, I admit it.
I am shy, I'm okay once Istarted, but getting me in the
room and opening my mouth isanother thing.
So you might be shy, but youneed to get over that, because
(13:29):
publishing means you are makingpublic.
You are making public and nowthe onus is on you to stimulate
those conversations, right?
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I love that Do you think the biggest challenge,
then, that authors have inmonetizing their books is
getting to that point where theyare encouraging others to share
their work or talk about themLike cause.
To me, I feel like that is verymuch a difficulty, where you
have a book and you love it somuch, but everyone else is kind
of doing their own thing,especially authors Like we.
We tend to gravitate towardsother authors.
A book and you love it so much,but everyone else is kind of
doing their own thing.
Especially authors like we tendto gravitate towards other
(14:07):
authors, not necessarily towardsother readers, and so it's hard
to then get other authors toshare your work unless you're
like really doing big thingslike newsletter swaps or
something along those lines.
So what is your secret there?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
oh well, this, this is just.
It's so simple you might noteven think that you would just
ask huh, you just ask.
You just ask Dang it.
I know I want you to succeed, Iwant you to succeed.
So, if I am being the first andthe first person who said this
very clearly, jeff Goins, who's,I think he's going to be our,
(14:44):
he's going to be our keynote atthe Redwood Writers Conference
in October.
So great, I know so he said,give before you ask and do it
long before you ever even thinkthat you're going to write a
book.
So if you establish yourconnections with people, you're
(15:05):
not bugging them.
But, seriously, the numbersalso come into play.
So if I want to have, say, 100reviews of my book or I want
people to know about it, I'mgoing to probably ask around 10
times that many people, right,approximately.
(15:27):
But if you and I have been inconversation, we know each other
, we might be networking in thesame circles, and I say, carissa
, tell me how I can help you.
And I do that.
And I say, oh, carissa, I'vegot, I've got a solution for
(15:50):
this problem you mentioned.
Here it is, and I give that toyou.
So when I have my book ready togo, I'm going to say, carissa,
would you be, would you behelpful to me?
And I give you the stuff to doit.
I give you swipe copy, I giveyou images of my book, I offer
(16:14):
to be on your podcast and I'mlooking to help you fill your
podcast with other guests whoare awesome.
So strategic.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
That's so smart right and it seems so simple because
there's a lot of, like you said,shy or introverted authors who
just even myself I don'tconsider myself introverted, I
just consider myself probablytoo busy for my own good
sometimes, and so I need to likepull back enough to get
strategic like that and go.
I've talked to an awful lot ofpeople.
I could ask them for thesethings or I could, because I'm
(16:49):
helping people all the time butit just doesn't.
I'm more of a helper and not somuch of a asker, and it's so
hard for me to get beyond thatat times.
It's so weird.
I don't understand why that iseither.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Well, it tends to be more.
It's a feminine trait.
You know it's a feminine trait,you know, it just is there.
But what flipped me on that?
I went through a period where Iwas very ill and I said, okay,
I need to look at.
I put all this goodwill in thebank.
(17:23):
And I didn't even look look atit that way, but I had put all
that goodwill in the bank.
As Jeff said before, you ask,don't just say oh, would you
review my book, would you giveme a blurb?
And you've never done anythingfor somebody.
So I looked at this when I gotsick I said, oh, number one,
everyone's going to know becauseI'm.
Yeah, I was going to go bald inabout two weeks after I started
(17:46):
chemo and I said, okay, I'mgoing to be doing this, I'm
going to still be around, but Ineed some help.
Well, I had contributed in myown immediate community.
I contributed worldwide.
People helped me and I had toask and it was really not how I
(18:10):
normally show up, but because Idid that and I got to receive
the gift of their support,whether it was physical,
monetary, all different kinds ofthings, it made me appreciate
the fact that when you asksomeone to help you.
You are allowing them toexpress their care, their love
(18:36):
for you, and it made me go.
It's okay, and if people don'tsay yes, I'm okay with that too.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I'm not attached to the outcome and if people don't
say yes, I'm okay with that too.
I'm not attached to the outcome.
Right, yeah, right, I love that.
The gift of receiving their,their help.
I love that.
That's so good.
Oh, and it's such a beautifulway to to reframe it too,
because so often I think we'renot allowing people to help us.
We're not.
It's like we're blocking thatkind of abundance, and and then
(19:03):
we're wondering why aren't theroyalties coming in, why aren't
the readers coming in?
It's like, well, we're blockingall the abundance in so many
different ways.
So what can you do in order toopen those floodgates?
So good, yeah, that's so good.
Oh, my, oh, goodness.
Okay, so let's, I need to talkabout the three keys to
visibility, impact and income,because I know you're an expert
with this.
I love this concept.
So can you elaborate on whatthis means?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Well, if you think about it, people might find you
a lot of different ways.
They could find you.
They could find your book in abookstore.
Hopefully.
They could find your book on adirectory, a place to shop, and
(19:52):
that place to shop might beonline.
That's one way.
But what if someone told youabout that book?
Are you more likely to go getit?
Check it out, If someone toldyou about it?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Okay, at my local bookstore I love this, and there
was another bookstore that didthis as well there are staff
picks, so they I know this isexactly what they do and I will
do a visual for you.
Okay, sure, picture, there's abookshelf, here is an index card
(20:22):
, and then on here is oh, judesays this book is a great read.
It is a thriller.
You'll never guess the ending.
And check it out.
Okay, so this is now.
These are known as shelftalkers.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yep, from the wine industry, which I also was in.
So there's a shelf talkers.
Yep, yep, from the wineindustry, which I also was in,
so there's a shelf talker.
So I, if I go through thebookstore and I see one of these
, I'm going to look at that bookmore than I'm looking at all
the other ones same.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I used to work in a bookstore, so I can't I
completely get it.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, I love it .
I love it.
Yes, librarians love it.
Yes, librarians are your bestfriend.
They will recommend books andpeople do go to libraries, and
we have some awesome librariesall across the world.
Ok, so that's these are.
These are word of mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Did you ever buy?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
a book because you heard about it on a podcast.
Because you heard about it on apodcast.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, yeah, mostly nonfiction for me.
I don't tend to listen tofiction as much on podcasts, I
don't know why Isn't thatinteresting?
But fiction I get all the timefrom like Facebook groups and
friends where I'm like okay, Imust read this book.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Exactly exactly.
And you know what Joanna Pennturned me on to Leigh Bardugo
Okay, yeah.
And you know what Joanna Pennturned me on to Leigh Bardugo
Okay yeah.
And I would never have.
I never would have found herwithout that recommendation.
Isn't that interesting?
So these are visibility things,okay.
So you want to get peopletalking about you.
(22:00):
You want to be visible.
If you're an author and you'rea nonfiction author, does it
have your book on your LinkedInprofile?
Because there's a section thatyou can put publications.
So you want to think aboutwhere am I already showing up
that?
where people know me and whatcan I do to help them know that
(22:26):
I'm an author?
Okay, so your profiles need tobe sharp and they need to be on
point.
You also want to be givingvalue all the time.
So what, if, what, if?
What if you took your book andyou took pieces of it and you
(22:47):
are popping it out in the world?
It could be in a speech, a livespeech in person on Zoom.
It could be at a conference.
It could be that you're takingthat and you're turning it into
a visual that you put intosocial posting.
So people are getting samplesof you all over the place.
(23:10):
You might do podcast guesting,which I think is like number one
.
Those are evergreen.
They're evergreen bits ofwisdom, of wisdom.
(23:30):
And if you're giving peoplesolutions that help them, what
about asking the people whoyou've helped to give you a
testimonial?
So you're getting third partyverification.
You're getting them to shareabout you and their group of
people is not all the samepeople you know.
So you're making these circlesthat keep going out and out and
(23:52):
out in the world so you share.
You are not being promotional.
You're not saying, oh, I'm thebest, whatever ever.
You're saying here's a problem,here's a solution, here's how
you can have that too, and ifyou want to know more, here's
how to contact me.
That's all I don't.
(24:15):
I am not a person who says, oh,slam money all over the place
to promote yourself.
Do it organically first, andthen decide if you want to put
money there.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that because there's
there's a value in like numberone.
Is there interest really inthis thing?
First?
Plus, you're building thatfoundation, like you said, with
the people that you're trying toconnect with.
That makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I love that.
Okay, so how, in your opinion?
How important is branding forauthors and what would you think
?
What would you tell them as thefirst step?
I know what it would be for meI was a graphic designer in a
past life but I would love toknow your interest and your take
on it.
Right, so what, what, what?
What should authors be thinkingabout when it comes to their
brand?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Well, look at other books that are like yours, or
authors you feel that are likeyou, and I'm not saying you want
to copy them, but you want to.
There there are some veryspecific things that happen.
(25:24):
If you go and look at books ina genre, there will be
similarities and there's goingto be some real big standouts.
So I want you to think aboutwhat do you stand for?
What are your unerringprinciples?
Who are you in the world?
What do you want to be knownfor?
(25:45):
And when it comes to branding,because, yes, we're yeah, we're
not past life graphic designerswe're still doing it.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
We are still doing it , but I'm only doing it for me
now, I'm not doing it for otherpeople, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But look at your colors.
Do they resonate?
Not just that you like them, dothey resonate with your
audience?
I always start with talk toyour readers.
What do they need, what do theylike?
What do they notice?
Need what do they like, what dothey notice?
(26:28):
So look at the colors that areappropriate for the age range,
look at the fonts that areappropriate for that group.
That will catch their eye butare also within in the circle of
oh yeah, I can see that that'sa non-fiction book.
It's got.
I've got two books on my deskright now and they both have
(26:50):
very big titles.
Typography matters theconsistency of your type, the
consistency of your colors.
So you're thinking of yourbrand.
If my colors and I'm switchingmy colors right now and I'm
switching up my brand so blackand white with probably a pop of
(27:16):
either pink or red, which isfine, because these are mostly
black and yellow, I can't wearyellow, I mean not even.
So you've got to think about.
You have to think about thattoo.
Don't pick colors in your brandthat you want to go every time
you look at them.
So the brand needs to embodyyou, embody your book, and it
(27:37):
should be something that istimeless, not just oh.
Right now, the hot new thing islet's put zigzaggy whatever.
No, your book is going to bethere for a while and you want
to feel comfortable with it fora while.
So look at you.
Look at you.
You're part of the brand.
(27:57):
Look at the statement you'remaking and make sure the type
and the colors amplify thatrather than diminish them.
And probably, if you're a firsttime author and you're looking
at your book cover design, yourname is not the biggest thing on
(28:18):
the cover.
Your name is going to be there,but your solution is the big
thing and think about writing.
Think about it too with books.
This is probably not a one anddone.
This is part of this is thefirst one and you're going to be
doing some others.
So if you were doing a series,what do you want to live with?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
right, right, that's so key.
It really is when, typically,when I am writing a series or
planning a series, mostly infiction, um, I will plan out the
whole series, not only for the.
You know the story arc andwhat's happening in each book,
but I'll actually sit down andthen do the entire cover series
at the same time so that thecovers are all matching, they
all have the similar vibe andyou're you're in that same flow
(29:04):
of it.
But that's me as a, an authorwho designs.
But it's helpful, if I think,if authors do the same thing and
can reach out to their coverdesigner and say, even if it's
like the first two or threebooks, can you get covers that
are matching?
Kind of puts you in thatheadspace.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah well it does, and you may not stay with
exactly what you started with.
That's the other thing too.
It's okay to re-brand your bookin a way.
Well, I shouldn't say justrebrand it.
What I'm really saying is, ifyou start out and you you know
you've got a cover and you'rereally enthusiastic about it.
(29:42):
But what if something reallydoes change radically?
Yeah, it's okay, recover yourbook, and if you look at any,
any book that's been out therefor a while, that is still a
bestseller.
I have.
I have always back here behindme somewhere I have the seven
(30:03):
habits of highly effectivepeople.
It hasn't just had one cover.
Yeah, it's had a differentcovers over the years.
The message is still the same,but the way it's being shown is
a little different.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Sometimes covers stay the same forever and ever and
ever.
Sometimes they don't, andsometimes, like with a series,
you may go back.
Maybe you published it 10, 15years ago.
You may go back and say youknow what, it needs a little bit
of freshening up so that itstill looks contemporary.
And you go back and do it.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it's fun too, like
there are romance authors whohave like one type of book for
the ebook and one type of coverfor the paperbacks.
You know, it's like just incase you know all the things,
just to make sure that you canbe standing in public and still
have your book out there.
So there's all sorts ofdifferent ways to be able to do
that.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Yeah, I agree with you on that 100%.
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Okay.
So when it comes to impact,what does that part mean for
authors, like how can theymeasure the impact that they're
making with their books?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Oh, this is a good one.
Think about starting from.
What are your goals?
So, if I'm writing a bookbecause I want to be known as an
expert, how would I measurethat?
Well, it could be that how manytimes am I being asked to speak
at an event, virtual or inperson?
(31:34):
It could be how many companiesare hiring me to come in and
train people using thismethodology.
So you've got to have an ideain your head.
What are your measurablemarkers?
And it's different for each ofyou.
(31:54):
If your, if your goal is justto sell books, you're missing a
lot of money.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, you got to think beyond just this book.
Is it turning into a course?
Is it turning into a podcast?
Is it turning into a systemthat you are selling?
You got it, you got to knowthat.
So those are some of the thingsI think are really critical to
(32:24):
know.
And on the credibility side,are there people quoting you?
You've said something brilliant.
Are they quoting you?
Are you making an effort to notjust say something once, but in
different ways?
Some people listen, some peoplelook, some people want to see a
(32:49):
video.
You can do a LinkedIn live onone chapter of your book.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So good, yeah, yeah, that's so smart, I think, for
for me too, there's a little bitof and I don't know if this was
just ingrained in me that Idon't like repetition personally
, and so it's like then when I'm, when I'm doing different
things, that's like I have tophysically force myself to do it
again, because I know, I know,logically, I know what you just
said is is true, and and yet forme I'm like, but I've already
(33:18):
done it.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Okay, how do?
Speaker 1 (33:26):
authors get over that .
Is it literally like give it toa PA so they have to deal with
it?
It's no longer you.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
That can be a really good solution.
So you're the creator and onlyyou can come up with that part
of the equation.
But you, if, if, if you're likeCarissa and myself once we've
done it, we've done it, we're onto something else, right?
Well, there are other people,and in a past life that used to
be me.
(33:52):
I used to be the person who wasthe support person, who did all
that, who distributed theinformation, who made those
follow up calls, who reached outto people the information, who
made those follow-up calls, whoreached out to people.
Hire somebody.
If that's not your thing, youcan find people who are reliable
and you may not just have oneperson, so someone who is just
(34:14):
an ace, say, on Instagram, butthey might suck at creating
newsletters for you or sendingout email.
Get people who are really goodat the thing that you need them
to do.
Do it as a project, rather thansaying I'm just hiring somebody
and they're going to do all ofmy.
(34:35):
No, that might happen down theroad, but try them out first as
a project person down the road,but try them out first as a
project person.
And that project oh, even evenmy friend, ted Perdomo, who
wrote the ultimate LinkedInguide and it's there's three.
There's three editions of that.
(34:56):
Okay, even he did this thefirst time.
He had one virtual assistant gothrough and pick out quotes.
Then he said, oh man, this islike boring or it could be
better.
Not that it was boring, but itcould be better.
And so then he had like threedifferent people go through the
(35:18):
third edition and so then hecould pick and choose.
They were all trained to speakin his voice, but they, each
person, had a differentviewpoint, so they would find
this was interesting to them.
So you've got to think aboutthat.
It's not about, it's not aboutyou, it's about the reader.
(35:40):
So what do they want to know?
So if there's those things thatyou know will make a difference
, get people to help you.
Don't try to do it all yourself, because there's like way too
much.
Start by learning how to do it,and then you can have
procedures and share that andget it done.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I love that I'm curious to know what your idea
is with AI, because I know like,with something like that, my
brain instantly goes oh, I couldput my manuscript into ChatGPT,
for instance, and be like okay,chat, you're the best marketing
professional on the planet.
This is my customer, my idealcustomer avatar and what they're
looking for.
Pick some really awesome quotesout of this chapter so that we
(36:21):
could use it for marketing Like.
Would you be like ooh, no, orare you like yeah, why not?
Like what's your thoughtprocess on AI right now?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Well, I happen to be AI positive In the respect that
you just said.
Ask for suggestions, yeah yeahyeah, yeah, and there are
different large language models,so not, they're not all equal,
right, some are better thanothers and, as an author,
depending on what you're doing.
(36:51):
So if you were looking to domarketing, um 4.0, which is now
free, I have.
I have a paid account too withopening.
That is just perfect.
You would say this is myaudience, I would like help with
my marketing and, and you know,give me suggestions.
(37:13):
Here's a chunk of it.
Now, I don't know if you canput the whole thing in in open
AI.
You can in Claude.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
You can in a custom GPT, but it's still not.
Unless you point it to aspecific area of the PDF, it's
still not great finding it.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Exactly so you want what I'm suggesting you do with
any of the AI tools and thereare a myriad of them try them
out.
Take a chunk of your text andtry them out and do exactly what
you said.
Give us very specific prompt,but it's iterative.
(37:51):
If you and I were talking andyou said, okay, here's a chapter
from my book, pick out quotes,well, I might do that.
And then we're going to haveanother conversation and you're
going to go, oh, could you focusmore on, say, for instance,
could you focus more on how thismakes money?
And then I'd go back throughagain.
(38:14):
And so you're refining theconversation.
You are using the AI as anassistant, so I look at it as AI
assisted authors tools that canhelp you.
But for marketing, oh my gosh,you can.
Pretty much.
You could do your back coverfairly easily using AI, because
(38:39):
you're saying here's, you know,here's an, here's the outline of
my book and how, how you're themarketing expert and here's my
target.
You put in the informationabout your target.
Give, give me some ideas for myback cover.
That's so.
It's a, it's a conversation,and so you can generate.
(39:00):
You can generate emailsequences which you will then go
and tweak.
You're not going to just takeit whole hog, but you can
generate email sequences, youcan do your back cover, you can
do a series of posts, instagram,linkedin if you're still using
(39:21):
X, which I'm not so experiment,that's kind of my watchword.
Experiment, Don't just try oneand go away.
See what comes up.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
I am so in agreement.
Yeah, I'll continue.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And you've tried different models and there are
ones you like and ones you don'tlike because they don't sound
right to you.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, and sometimes they're easier than others or it
just works better in your brainversus another one.
There's so many tools that areout there now that will use
iterations of, like ChatGPT forinstance, but they're giving you
smaller little context windowsand that just doesn't work for
my brain.
I like that really big open, uh, open ai version like.
I like chat gpt and how itworks.
(40:08):
I like claude and how it works,but for different things, and
so it's.
It's very interesting to justsee how they're kind of evolving
and shaping things.
But the more specific we canunderstand how to prompt them
and I don't even know if promptis like even the best word
anymore.
It's.
It's like the best way we canhave this conversation, this
iterative conversation, knowingthat we're going to go back and
(40:29):
forth until we get what we want.
It's like it's so it takes thepressure out of oh, I have to
make sure this prompt is perfect.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I haven't come up with the perfect prompt yet.
Oh, in fact yesterday I was, Iwas.
I decided I wanted to createsome images and I I put in my
prompt and it didn't quite getit.
So then I did another one andit it was.
(40:58):
Over time I got closer to whatI wanted and even though I
thought I was very specific, youhave to learn it is, it's
learning another language.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
It really really is.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
And, yeah, not all of the tools are equal and you
have to be comfortable, but,like anything else, I can still.
Well, this isn't.
These are two tools I willhighly recommend to every writer
.
If you're not using themalready, you probably are
(41:32):
missing out on some stuffGrammarly and Pro Writing Aid
and they're not the same and youhave to see which one you
resonate more with.
But they will help you with thestuff that is probably less
important in your brain, but itis at the end, but it isn't
(41:54):
while you're creating.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Right, I agree, and those are technically both AI
enhanced tools as well.
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
And so when people say, oh my God, this guy's
falling AI is coming, yes, well,you know what you look.
Do you have a smartphone?
Yes, that's AI.
I like the idea that thesemodels are becoming more natural
language, and so, instead ofhaving just like when we used to
(42:24):
have to do Google searches andyou had to just ask, oh my God,
you had to think how is Googlethinking about this, so I can
ask the question to get theresult that I'm looking for,
right, yeah, oh that used todrive me.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's so nice because now you can ask the same
question you would have askedGoogle, except do it to chat GPT
and find out what the heck isgoing on, faster than like
having to search through a wholebunch of search results.
So great, yeah, love that.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Using it for research .
I think that's the other thingthat I strongly recommend for AI
Use it for research.
If you're doing historical, ifyou want to know, oh, what did
other people say about the topicyou're writing about, whether
you're doing fiction ornonfiction.
Doing research, you can get alot of value.
(43:10):
But you also still need to besure you're checking Are these
real links?
Is this real or is it ahallucination?
But that's getting, that'sstarting to start.
What do I want to say?
It's less frequent that you'regetting these really garbagey
hallucinations.
You're getting, you're gettingreal information that can, that
(43:32):
can support you.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
I've seen that over the past year too, because I've
been teaching AI for authorsprobably since about this time
last year actually and it'sgotten so much better at not no
longer hallucinating.
There are times where it willkind of get hung up and maybe
start to take longer to processthings, but the hallucination
(43:54):
aspect of it is is definitelydiminished a lot.
Yeah, even with the custom gptsand things like that it's been
so much easier to work with.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
It's great.
Well, the tools keep improving.
The more we use them, thebetter they get.
And if you even remember backwhen you maybe first started
using Amazon as a search tool,because it is, Amazon is a
search engine.
Google is a search engine.
Youtube is a search engine.
Google is a search engine.
Youtube is a search engine.
Any directory where you'relistening on, you know to a
(44:26):
podcast.
Those are directories.
Use them.
They are search engines.
Spotify has an oh my God,spotify.
When I switched to Spotify forlistening, I was amazed because
I'd been using Pandora name.
I was amazed because I'd beenusing Pandora, I'd used Apple
(44:47):
podcasts and music, but Spotifyhad a better engine for not only
finding things, but it was, itwas paying attention to my
preferences and it would give mesuggestions that made more
sense to me, suggestions thatmade more sense to me.
(45:07):
And it wasn't so repetitivebecause I found I found most
other podcast directories boringand I, like you, I was a little
fresh sometimes, but I also.
I can also save what I love andget notified when there's new
stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
That's so good.
Yeah, that's so smart.
I have not been on Spotify fora podcast.
I should actually look into it,because I use Apple still when
I'm listening to podcasts at themoment, but it's because I have
Apple everything and so to meit just makes sense.
But, suggestion wise, I think Iwould like those new
suggestions, because that's partof the reason why I ended up on
Podmatch actually this pastyear, where it seems like all
(45:45):
the author podcasts it's almostlike everyone's interviewing the
same people and they're havingthe same conversations.
I'm like I don't need to justbe repeating what everyone else
is doing.
I want to talk to new andinsightful people, right, so it
was like I need to do somethingdifferent because this is not me
.
Yeah, so I'm interested.
(46:05):
I'm going to have to check thatout now and see what it can
come up with, to see what myactual interests are versus what
I'm just listening to, becauseI love these particular podcasts
.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Exactly, and people should subscribe to your podcast
because I will.
I'm I'm a fan, I'm not just aguest, I am a fan.
You bring on people and the waythat you interview is well, you
know, you're thoughtful, you'rethinking about, you're not just
(46:35):
doing oh, I've got fivequestions I'm going to ask.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Oh, my God, questions I'm going to ask.
Oh, my God, you know it's outof misery right now.
You, I've been on podcastswhere I've been interviewed,
where it's like that and you'relike what just happened?
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Like okay, yeah, oh, my God, you know I want it
should be a conversation.
Let's see what we're doing withthis.
So I love your podcast becauseof that, because you always
bring really quality informationto your audience and because
you care.
You really package it in a in away that it's Great to listen
(47:20):
to, great to refer to.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
So I really I appreciate that too.
That means a lot.
I love that.
Okay, so I got to.
I obviously we talked about AI,so I want to get your your
concept on this about trends too, because I would love to from
your marketer's perspective,other than AI, which is so huge
and it's just revolutionized ourlandscape.
But what do you see as thingsthat authors should be paying
attention to in terms of trendscoming up?
(47:47):
Is there anything else,anything that's like on the
horizon that we're all kind ofgoing to get sidelined by?
Do you think?
Speaker 2 (47:55):
oh, that's interesting.
Well, the biggest trend I amseeing more and more authors are
selling directly to theircustomers.
So what I'm talking about.
There are several ways this canhappen.
(48:15):
We're seeing a bigger number ofauthors using crowdfunding as
their marketing campaign.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I'm actually going to be doing that this fall.
Yeah, with my next nonfictiontitle, actually, okay.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, it's a marketing campaign and it
doesn't end once you're funded.
That's the thing.
So this is a newer thing.
So you do the, you do thecrowdfunding, you've got your
different levels ofparticipation and so you get,
say, you get funded.
Well, you can keep thatcrowdfunding campaign open after
(48:59):
the book is published.
But people get goodies, theyget more goodies before the book
is published.
But people get goodies, theyget more goodies before the book
is published.
So you use that foundationalmarketing campaign and can keep
it moving.
And we are seeing people notjust doing that, they are
(49:21):
looking at well, what if I wrotethis book and what if I offer
chunks of it?
So we're seeing serializationreappear.
It used to be a thing back inCharles Stinson's day, but we're
seeing, we're seeing moreauthors do that with both
fiction and nonfiction.
Interesting Like pay as you go.
(49:43):
So you might, you might offerhere's stuff through Patreon or
here's stuff through Payhip orwhatever subscription model
you're using, and so, as peopleconsume things, then they're
buying the next thing and thenext thing, because they want
more.
You know what, instead of a $20book or $30 book, you've now
(50:06):
turned it into Okay, guys limitreally yeah yeah, so you're
making more and bundling rightand what I'm talking about is do
an event.
Do an event you offer, you'reinviting people to attend an
event and you are including thebook in the price of admission.
(50:30):
Do you think you're going toget more people to come to your
event, or physical, or online?
So those are the.
Those are, those are a coupleof the trends.
So it's it's more about sellingdirect, because when you do
that, what happens?
I now have your email address.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Yes, yes, and a lot of times.
If you're doing it in personnow you have that like
face-to-face repertoire too.
You guys understand each other.
There's that, no, like trustfactor.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Exactly, and I mean I've done it.
I've done it myself as aconsumer.
I went to an event.
Gretchen Rubin was releasingone of her books and she was
going to be at a bookstore inSan Francisco which is an hour
and a half from door to doorbecause driving and parking
(51:23):
Right but my husband and I went.
It was so much fun.
I got to meet her in person, Igot to shake her hand, she got
to shake her hand, she got tosign my book and I was thrilled.
But you know what?
That was I.
It was worth it to me to pay todo that.
So if you're having a booklaunch, yeah, no, what if you're
(51:44):
giving a talk and your book ispart of the ticket, You're going
to sell more books and get morepeople in the room.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Right, absolutely.
I've even heard of people doingthat sort of thing at Barnes
Noble.
I mean, I don't know if BarnesNoble will allow the ticket part
to be part of it, but yougiving a talk about something
that's related to your books andthen your books are there for
sale too.
I mean there's so manydifferent ways to do it.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
That for sale too.
I mean, there's so manydifferent ways to do it that's
so smart.
There are, there are.
So I think.
I think we're just seeing moreinnovation and I think what is
happening to what?
Because you were a designer andyou may have gone through this
back in the day when I was usingQuark oh, yes, okay, before
InDesign.
So Quark was a really good tool.
So there was Quark andPageMaker and I used both of
them, but I mostly use Quark.
(52:37):
Well, quark was notorious forhaving the snarkiest customer
service in the world.
So then InDesign came on thescene.
Two things happened.
They offered a free versionwhen you bought your new Mac
computer and I was like, I'll dothat.
I said, well, I'll try it out.
(52:57):
And, by the way, oh, indesigncan read your core files.
So I tried it and I went oh, Ihave been an Adobe fan forever,
I've been in there, I've been inthere, oh've been in there.
Um, oh God, I'm trying to thinkof the word, right, it's
escaping me.
I was in their um, testinggroups focus group.
(53:20):
So I was a focus groupparticipant for several uh
different products.
So I knew, and they did, andthey did uh, user groups which
you could go to and I went tothat and they were always giving
away swag.
So Adobe already had my heart.
I opened up my first Quark filein InDesign.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
I never look back.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
I'm done and I used to teach Quark, no less, so I
thought it was really funny.
So think about are people goingto gravitate to the people who
are nice to them, who are givingthem goodies all the time, who
love them back?
So it's this customer servicemodel that now, and I don't even
(54:04):
know if customer service is, itis customer service because
you're serving your.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Because you're serving your, yeah, so if you do
that, people will follow youand they will spread the love,
because you love them first.
I love that.
That's so good.
That's so good, okay.
So, judy, what is next for youand what's your mission when it
comes to helping non-fictionauthors?
Is there anything reallyexciting on the horizon that we
need to be cheerleading you for?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
Absolutely.
I have now started doing whatI'm doing this twice a month.
Right now it's called the BookBuzz Cafe.
Love it, I know, and it's aboutan hour.
I'm going to say it's about anhour because sometimes I get to
talking, but it's not just metalking, I'm going to I share a
(54:51):
tool, tip or concept each timewe go through it in relative
depth.
This last one that I did wasabout how do you create your
custom YouTube channel, becausea lot of people don't even know
that you can do such a thing.
People don't even know that youcan do such a thing, right.
(55:12):
So I showed, I demoed how to dothis, and and the reason we did
it is because one of the peoplewho attended the cafe the
previous session said this iswhat they wanted to know.
So I went through it.
People ask questions along theway because I don't just go.
Oh, we're going to go blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No, I show it and I show it onmy stuff.
(55:32):
So I was rebranding this didthat.
So the Book Plus Cafe is aplace for authors to come with
their questions about marketingalso, to share their wins and to
meet other people who are in asimilar situation Because, of
course, as we talked aboutearlier, if you do it together,
(55:54):
if I help you out, you're likelyto help me out when I need help
.
So we are building a communityat the Book Buzz Cafe.
And yeah, and so that'shappening.
And I am working on my workbook, which I have to add some more
stuff to it because I did it ina in a course.
(56:16):
So the the buzzworthy bookblueprint workbook is almost
done.
I will have that up for salesoon and then people can buy
that with an hour of my coachingtime.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Where will they be able to find that?
On your website?
Are they finding it on aKickstarter Like how are you
launching this thing?
Speaker 2 (56:42):
I'm a little bit afraid to do a Kickstarter for
my very, very first thing.
I still make books, but Ihaven't quite committed to doing
it thing.
I still make books, but Ihaven't quite committed to doing
it.
So information will always beon my website, which is
bookmarketingmentorcom.
I'll always have all thosegoodies up there, and if you go
(57:02):
there now, there's a big buttonthat tells you how to get the
buzz so that you can then attenda Book Buzz Cafe, which I said
is free.
Speaker 1 (57:12):
That is so good.
I can't wait to join one ofthose.
I'm going to have to go look atmy calendar and find out which
ones are open so that I can join.
Speaker 2 (57:19):
I would love to have you in the room because I want
other experts in the room toshare their wisdom.
That's the way I roll.
I like other people.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
It's so much more fun that way too, because then you
can have a more dynamicconversation.
You know so good Good.
Well, Judy, thank you so muchfor being on the show today and
sharing your wisdom.
It's been such a joy speakingwith you and being able to like
get into like some of the nittygritty of these things so good.
Book marketing is one of themost fascinating aspects of
publishing, in my personalopinion.
(57:51):
I think a lot of authors dothink that as well, so thank you
for being here.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
Oh, I appreciate it so much.
Thank you, Carissa.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Wow, what an incredible conversation with
Judy Baker.
Her insights into bookmarketing are truly inspiring
and I hope you're walking awaywith as many takeaways as I am
Now.
Judy's passion for helpingauthors shine is really
unmatched, and I'm so gratefulwe had the chance to dive into
this with her today.
So be sure to check out theshow notes for all of the ways
that you can connect with herand learn more about her
(58:24):
fantastic resources.
But before we wrap up, I have abit of news to share.
As you know, when we approachthe end of 2024, the Author
Revolution podcast will be goingon hiatus after the final
episode, which will launch onChristmas Day.
But don't worry, this isn'tgoodbye.
It's more like a shift in focus.
If you caught last week'sepisode, you know that I'm super
(58:45):
excited to announce that I'llbe launching a brand new podcast
, a brand new business endeavor.
I'm shifting gears and it's allgoing to be dedicated to the
NeuroDivergent Manifestor.
Everything kicks off January1st Now.
This podcast is going toexplore manifestation through
the lens of neurodivergence, andI can't wait to dive into this
journey with you.
(59:05):
There's so much I've beenwanting to share, so many
different insights andperceptions and things that I
would love to be able to talkabout, but they're not quite a
good fit for authorship and Ifelt very stuck or very closed
in boxed in, whatever the wordis and I want to be able to just
explore the way that I feellike exploring.
So if you've loved followingalong here, I would be honored
(59:29):
to have you join me there.
Check out the show notes forall of the details, including
the links to Jodi's amazing workand the social media platforms.
The website is in process.
I'm working on that right nowand I've actually changed the
name of the website.
It's not ready to go.
It's not NeuroDivergentManifestor.
I had a really cool insight inthe middle of the night where my
(59:51):
tagline for that particularbrand is all going to be
Manifest Differently.
So the website ismanifestdifferentlycom.
So hang tight.
The website's in the buildprocess.
We're going to have lots ofcool stuff coming out of that
direction for 2025.
But in the meantime, if you'dlike to get the transcript, all
the links, like we justdiscussed, head over to
(01:00:13):
authorrevolutionorg.
Forward slash 264 to getstarted.
Thank you so much for being apart of this amazing community
and, as always, go forth andstart your author revolution.
We'll see you next time you.
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