May 20, 2024 • 56 mins
The journey of a writer is a blend of art and commerce, heart and head.
"Intuitive Editing is the process of taking the hard craft skills and melding it with creating the story that you're trying to create, not the one that some writing guru or dogma has suggested would be the right structure for you."
This week we're thrilled to have editor Tiffany Yates Martin on the show. She is strong believer there's a difference between editing and revising. Editing gives you the map for revising your story, while revising sculpts your novel into shape.
Tiffany Yates Martin has spent nearly thirty years as an editor in the publishing industry, working with major publishers and New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today bestselling and award-winning authors as well as indie and newer writers. She is the founder of FoxPrint Editorial (a Writer's Digest Top 100 Best Websites for Writers in 2023 and 2024) and author of Intuitive Editing: A Creative and Practical Guide to Revising Your Writing. She is a regular contributor to writers’ outlets like Writer’s Digest, Jane Friedman, and Writer Unboxed, and a frequent presenter and keynote speaker for writers’ organizations around the country. Under her pen name, Phoebe Fox, she is the author of six novels.
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Tiffany Yates Martin
Website: https://www.foxprinteditorial.com
Book: Intuitive Editing: A creative and practical guide to revising your writing
Online Courses: https://foxprinteditorial.com/online-courses/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tiffanynyates/
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Greta Boris:
Website: www.GretaBoris.com
Facebook: @GretaBorisAuthor
Instagram: @GretaBoris
Megan Haskell:
Website: www.MeganHaskell.com
Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor
TikTok: @AuthorMeganHaskell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
So I loved this interview.
I think Tiffany is justbrilliant.
If I had an idea for a newseries and I felt like I really
needed some professionalbrainstorming, I'm not sure I
could afford her or she wouldhave time for me, but I would
love to hire her.
You guys are in for a treat inthis interview.
She's really the real deal andshe's worked with indie authors
(00:37):
traditionally published big five.
She's been doing this a longtime and she really knows her
stuff.
I thought it was great yeah, itwas.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It was a fun interview, so um it was yeah
stay tuned, stay tuned, yes,stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So, as for me, this week I'm focused really on
newsletters and Facebook ads.
Facebook has been going througha bit of an ad crisis, not just
for authors, but advertising.
They're calling it theMetapocalypse, which it has not
been that bad for me, but I'mdefinitely seeing a bit of a
downshift in my ROI, so I amgoing to try an Amazon ad or two
(01:18):
to try to make up thedifference and really focus in
on a few other marketing tactics.
Really focus in on a few othermarketing tactics.
I want to get a few things inplace, also to promote the audio
book, which is actually comingout next week.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Now, but that's through Tantor, so you're not
going to advertise that one,correct?
It's just cross promotions andstuff.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, and I want to let my list know and I'm know
and I'm going to get a few coatsfor free audiobooks I want to
send to people who will give itits first few reviews.
And yeah, just jump up and downand say a whole lot about it on
social media and then I can addyou know, in my Facebook ads a
(02:01):
lot of the time I'll say print,digital and audio, and some
people put that within the copyof their ad.
So they'll actually put withinthe copy.
They'll say, you know, printwith a link, digital or ebook
with a link, and audio with alink, digital or ebook with a
(02:22):
link and audio with a link, andit just goes to the product page
.
But whichever segment of theproduct page you know should
come up first and I mean thatwouldn't cost me any more at all
to do and I could put that in.
Yeah yeah, because I mean it'snot like I'm going to make a
(02:42):
whole ton of money right upfront from that because I had an
advance.
So it has to earn out itsadvance.
But you know, I'd like to worktoward that Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So, anyway, that's pretty much it for me.
I'm still working my waythrough the keep.
And how about you?
What are you?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
doing Well.
This week I am back to work onAetherburned, which is the Rise
of Lilith, book 3, after havingto pause a bit because of all
the other madness that you know.
I thought I could do all thethings.
It turns out you can't quite doeverything you want to do all
at once.
Really, I did not know that.
(03:23):
No matter how many, many timesI try to learn this lesson, I
find myself doing the same thingover and over again.
Anyhow, uh, but yeah.
So you know, now theKickstarter's over and um, you
know I got the bagger kit out.
I'm working on the fulfillmentof all of that, but I can
finally get back to work on thethird book, which is going to be
(03:45):
amazing.
And I've been using plotter toget myself reorganized.
You know I kind of had to likerediscover the story threads,
kind of, you know, uncover theplot holes and stuff from where
I left off.
And I have to say it is such agreat tool to help with story
structure, and I mean obviouslyfor the outliners out there.
Like doing it in the prewriting phase makes a lot of
(04:06):
sense.
I, my brain, doesn't work thatway, so I'm using it in the
midst of writing now to sort offind those story threads that
I've already written but havemaybe been dropped, or the plot
holes that still need to befilled, and kind of get me back
into the swing of things, tofinish it out to the big battle
(04:26):
scene at the end, which is, youknow, I'm right there, actually.
So, as a side note, if youhaven't already listened to our
interviews with Cameron Sutterwhich was season five, episode
10, and Troy Lambert, season two, episode eight, you should
totally go back and listen tothose episodes to find out about
all the great things thatPlotter has done and has going
(04:50):
on.
So it's a great, it's a greattool.
I've really been enjoying it.
Alrighty, I think that's it fornow, so let's get into the
interview with Tiffany.
Today's guest is Tiffany YatesMartin.
She spent nearly 30 years as aneditor in the publishing
industry, working with majorpublishers and New York Times,
washington Post, wall StreetJournal and USA Today,
(05:12):
bestselling and award-winningauthors, as well as indie and
newer writers.
She's the founder of Fox PrintEditorial, a Writer's Digest Top
100 Best Websites for Writersin 2023 and 2024, which is
amazing and author of IntuitiveEditing, a Creative and
Practical Guide to Revising yourWriting.
(05:32):
She's a regular contributor towriters outlets like Writer's
Digest, jane Friedman and WriterUnboxed, and a frequent
presenter and keynote speakerfor writers organizations around
the country.
Under her pen name, phoebe Fox,she is the author of six novels
, so welcome, Tiffany.
We're excited to have you heretoday.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Thanks, I'm so happy to join you guys.
I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, I am really looking forward to this
conversation.
I am currently editing, goingover a series that was published
and is taken down, and redoingall the books.
So I'm like, as Megan isintroducing you, I'm thinking,
oh, I've got to go get your book.
I think it would be right up myalley right now.
(06:15):
Oh, I hope so.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
One of my missions with it was I love editing.
I think it's where the magichappens.
I think it's where the storybecomes the vision you had in
your head, and I know so manyauthors are intimidated or
overwhelmed by it because wedon't actually teach editing
right.
We teach writing craft, and somy part of not just demystifying
the actual process but I washoping that if people could get
(06:36):
excited about editing, my workon earth is done.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I love that.
Yeah, I actually like editing.
I'm weird, but I love that.
Yeah, yeah, I actually likeediting.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I'm weird, but I love that.
Yeah, yeah, I do.
I do too.
Actually, I actually find thewriting more difficult than the
editing.
I'm the same, but only in myown work.
I don't want to do otherpeople's stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yes, I wish someone would hand me my first draft so
that I could then edit it,because that's the easy part,
because it is harder, I think,yeah, often it can be harder,
but it really is where you getto dig in and do the stuff that
we, most of us, became writersto do, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I love, I love that it's intuitive editing.
Now we're totally off on atangent already, but I'm very
curious.
So what does intuitive editingmean to you?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I love that question.
So most authors because I thinkwe don't teach editing when they
finish their draft they go backto the beginning and they start
working through it and try to,you know like, chronologically,
go through a page at a time andfix things and we're skipping
the editing process.
We're trying to start revisingbefore we've actually seen what
(07:41):
we have on the page, revisingbefore we've actually seen what
we have on the page.
So part of it is just focusingon the editing itself, but also
a big part of what makes itintuitive is that a lot of times
I'll hear from authors who sayyou know, I faithfully followed
the hero's journey or thethree-act structure or save the
cat.
I think we're taught craft in away sometimes that it feels
like we're imposing an outsidestructure on the story instead
(08:05):
of growing the story from theinside to what it needs to be
organically and cohesively.
So intuitive editing is abouttaking the hard craft skills and
melding it with creating thestory that you're trying to
create, not the one that somewriting guru or dogma has
suggested would be the rightstructure for you.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh, I love that.
Yep, I'm going to go off andgrab that book like today.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Me too.
You just you've just sold twocopies.
Look at that.
Absolutely yeah.
You know just um we're.
We always ask this question ofeverybody, and so, before I just
totally pick your brain onediting, because I'm just dying
to do it, can you give us alittle synopsis of how you got
(08:54):
into this job and what led youto become the amazing Tiffany
Yates Martin that you are today?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I came in backward.
It's so weird.
I was an actor, that's all Iever thought I was going to do.
And so I was living inManhattan in my early 20s.
I had an English literaturedegree because those were the
classes I really enjoyed and Iwas waiting tables like every
other actor on the planet and Ididn't want to do that forever.
And so I thought, well, whatcan I do that would be somewhat
(09:22):
portable and use the limitedskills I have with my English
lit degree.
And I sent away for a pamphletin the New York Times classified
section that's how long ago.
This was called how to Get Paidfor Reading Books.
And I thought this is going tobe such a scam and I was such a
poor, starving artist at thetime.
But I scraped up the money forit and, sure enough, it actually
(09:45):
had great information on how tocreate a proofreading and copy
editing career.
So I taught myself the skills.
I sent out the resumes theysend you tests.
I started working with onepublisher and then it's a small
world.
So, little by little, beforelong, I was working with most of
the big six at the time, fivenow and then, about maybe 15
(10:06):
years ago, I transitioned intodevelopmental editing, which I
didn't realize at the time.
But the copy editing was thegreatest training ground in the
world.
For that it was like aninternship, because this was
before.
I'm so dating myself but thiswas before electronic editing.
So when I worked on something Igot to see what had been done to
(10:26):
it before and I got to witnessthe editing process with authors
like Walter Mosley and PatConroy and Jennifer Weiner.
It was astonishing.
So when I started dev editing,I mean that just stood me in
such great stead and that's whatI've been doing since.
With the pandemic I expanded toa lot of teaching and
presenting and speaking andwriting.
(10:48):
But I still do the editing dayby day because it's where the
material comes from.
You know, first of all I loveit, but also, if I'm going to be
talking about this stuff andcoming up with ideas and
theories to present, I need tobe doing the hands-on work.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So do you?
Do you use your own advice fromthe intuitive editing book when
you are doing edit,developmental editing for other
authors A hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, this, the book, was sort of born out of the way
I work as an editor and whatI'm what I'm.
So I always differentiate it,as I said, between editing and
revising, and you can think ofediting as assessing and
revising as addressing.
And authors should developskills in writing, editing and
(11:36):
revising.
But the editing and revisingare two different skills.
So if we learn to see in ourown writing what's not holding
together as strongly as it could, revision is not the onerous
process that it usually is.
Because we're trying.
It's like you're going throughthe forest without ever looking
at the map.
Editing gives you the map.
So I assess things Generally.
(11:58):
I start with what I call theholy trinity of story, which is
character, stakes and plot.
See how all that's holding up.
And then I just circle in evercloser with macro edits, as
there's holy trinity.
And then micro edits are thingslike suspense and tension,
momentum point of view, showingand telling pace it's not quite
the same as momentum voice andthen just circle in closer and
(12:21):
closer.
With publishers.
I often do multiple passes,which gives us the luxury of
kind of working like a sculptordoes, meaning first you rough
out the general shape and thenyou hone it ever finer on each
pass, and it's a nice way towork with authors.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, I want to.
Can I hire you?
Are you open, for I'm sure youcould hire her.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I actually am.
I have really limitedavailability, unfortunately,
right now.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
And periodically.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I have to shut it down just until I can get caught
up, but I'm getting ready toopen up for fall, so oh wow, all
right, all right.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, so there you go , everybody.
If you like the idea ofsculpting your novel into shape,
because that's amazing On ourlist for later this year, that's
great, that's great, but thereare also skills that we can
master ourselves.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I mean, I think there is.
It's invaluable to have anoutside perspective, but, like I
have a whole chapter in thebook about, I don't think there
should be a financial barrier tothis career, and editing is a
very expensive procedure.
Yeah, and there are options.
First of all, as I said, whileeditors are invaluable, these
are core writer skills, and sothe book is also designed to
(13:35):
help you develop them, so thatyou need editing less and less
and less.
That said, it's always going tohelp you to have someone hold
up the mirror to show you whatyou have on the page, versus all
the blanks you're filling in inyour head because you know your
story so well.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Absolutely Well.
We always preach get an editorwhatever you can afford, kind of
a thing.
But I do think that it's easierto have a great relationship
with your editor if you're nothanding them in a hot mess.
Well, you certainly get moreout of it, you, your editor, if
you're not handing them in a hotmess.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, you certainly get more out of it.
You know, if you're sometimesright after almost every year,
right after Nano, I get a lot ofqueries of people saying I'm
ready to go and I'm like you'renot.
Though, If you come to aneditor with a first draft, yes,
they can help you with it, butyou're taking a lot of resources
, money, time, energy,addressing things that are core
(14:29):
issues that you could do on yourown, with more revision passes,
beta readers, whatever it takesto get it.
I always say you're ready towork with an editor when you get
to the place where you cannotmake it any more polished than
it is, but you know it's stillnot quite there yet.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, it's interesting about that too is
that I think people want editorsto to fix something that is
very difficult for an editor tofix, and the reason I say this
is in the process of rewritingmy first series.
I looked at the first book andI couldn't believe I got a
(15:08):
publisher for that book.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Now that I've written .
Speaker 1 (15:11):
X number of books.
I'm like this is terrible.
I mean, I literally kept maybe25 to 30% of that book and
rewrote everything else and asI'm doing it, I'm remembering
notes from my editor back thenand she was telling me some of
these things, but I did not getit.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, you weren't the writer then that you probably
are now.
That's the hard part aboutgoing back to our older work.
Is we evolved?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
as creators, and I do think that that's something,
too, that sometimes people arein such a hurry.
I do think that that'ssomething too, that sometimes
people are in such a hurry andthat if they just wrote a bunch
more, even books that are nevergoing to go anywhere, or that
could sit in their hard driveuntil they've written five or
six books, and then they couldgo back and go oh, now I know
(15:59):
how to fix this.
It's like it's.
It's not always somethingtotally cerebral.
That's why I love what you said.
The title intuitive In order todevelop intuition.
It just takes time.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Time and practice it does.
And I do think sometimes we arein a hurry because we you know
most of us get into this becausewe love books, we love reading,
we love story and we have tonsof them in our head and that's
great.
But you wouldn't go into even Imean, let alone a skilled
profession.
Right, you could say, oh, abrain surgeon.
You wouldn't go into thatwithout a residency and an
(16:30):
internship and lots of practice.
But let's take even othercreative fields.
Nobody would think they couldbe a prima ballerina or a you
know what do you call them in anorchestra, like a first chair
violinist.
You know you can't do thatwithout years of study and
practice.
And yet we think we're going tobe able to sit down, pound out
a story and be JK Rowling.
(16:52):
And that's not denigratinganybody like that's.
Of course we all have thatdream, but it does take work,
like we were talking a minuteago, even editing.
I don't know that I could be asum as effective an editor as I
think I am without those.
You know that 12, 13 years oftraining I had as an essentially
(17:14):
an internship, working as acopy editor, seeing it done.
It's the same thing withwriting.
You just have to pound them outand hone your skills, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So let's bring this back now to our normal, our
normal questions, our regularlyscheduled programming here.
But I am curious you know withgiven, you know how many
different clients you've had,both on the big traditional
publisher side, copy editing,developmental editing, indies,
(17:44):
so forth and so on.
What is the most commonroadblock that you're seeing
from the authors that you workwith?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Do you mean on a craft level, or do you mean on a
motivational or writing careerlevel?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Why don't we do both?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah don't?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
we do both.
Yeah, let's do both.
So on a craft level, it's funny.
I just did a conference where Ipresented a workshop called the
biggest mistakes writers make,and they they tend to fall into
different categories, Like therewere like nine of them in there
.
But here's a.
Here's a few that jump out atme.
If your characters are notdeeply developed and we don't
see what they stand to gain orlose, we will not invest in your
(18:31):
story, no matter how great yourplot is.
Like, readers don't care what'shappening unless we deeply care
who it's happening to, and thatmeans you've got to give us a
reason to get in that car withthat person who is going to be
our traveling companion for thestory.
So issues of character.
I always say I'm a charactereditor and that's probably the
thing that I see most ishampering story craft-wise.
(18:53):
The other thing I often say andI'll want to talk about it from
the squishier side in a second,but one of the things in that
presentation is what we werejust talking about too much
editing or too little editing.
If you're in a hurry and youhaven't you haven't sufficiently
gotten your story to be thestrongest it can be, you get one
(19:15):
shot with everybody.
You know an agent is going tolook at your.
If they say, yes, send us pages.
They're going to do that onetime, unless they give you, you
know, a revise and resubmit,which is rare.
So you need to make that asperfect as it can be and make
sure you've taken the story asfar as you can.
But also the danger of that isyou start circling the drain and
(19:38):
you never let it go becauseyou're trying to make it
absolutely perfect.
This sounds like an oxymoronand in some ways it is, but when
do you let go of it?
You know it's never gonna bethe thing you really think it
can be and want it to be, andit's also not ready yet if you
haven't done enough work on it.
So there's a sweet spot in themiddle where you just send your
(19:59):
baby bird out of the nest andmove on to the next thing, and
finding that is one of the coreskills for writers, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And does that change the more experienced a writer
gets?
Like what is that sweet spotfor a new writer versus an
experienced you know,multi-published author?
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
For new writers I see holes, extremes.
Either they'll pop you know Ijust finished my nano first
draft and bam out it's going orthey will work on it for 10
years and have four editors thatthey've hired and 25 beta
readers and they havehomogenized it out of any unique
(20:38):
voice or story or spark itmight once have had.
With more experienced writers,I think they tend to realize you
get it as good as you'recapable of getting it, including
with outside eyes helping pointout.
And you guys said somethingreally valuable a minute ago
that I wanted to go back to, soit's a good point.
Now you said people want aneditor to fix things for them.
(21:01):
That's not what editing is.
That's not what editors do.
They hold up a mirror and theysay here's what I'm seeing on
the page.
Is that your intention?
And if it's not and usually agood editor will be able to see
what your intention is then hereare some ways you could address
that issue.
And it's not prescriptive, it'snot.
You know.
(21:22):
Have a scene where she doesso-and-so.
It's saying the character isnot coming across on the page
here for this specific reason,and we need to know what's
motivating her and how shereacts to what happens in this
scene.
So it's specific in that way,but not prescriptive in telling
someone how to do it.
So I think more experience,let's say authors, learn that
(21:45):
you get it as far as you canwith that and then you just let
it go and know that it's animperfect creation because it's
a subjective field and that'swhat art is.
And then you keep growing as anartist and move on to the next
thing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, you know that's so good and we were talking
about, you know, metaphors forother creative careers.
But, like you, think aboutmusic and if you want perfection
in music, it's a robot, it's.
(22:19):
It's those little imperfectionsthat come through, you know a
singer's voice, that make theirvoice unique.
That people go oh my gosh, Ilove every single thing that.
You know whoever sings, so Ilove that.
And it's because they sounddifferent.
(22:39):
And the reason they sounddifferent is because it's little
imperfections and so you know,you can write the life out of
something.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
A hundred percent.
That's exactly what intuitiveediting means.
You know it's.
Do not try to instill someoneelse's framework on your story.
Every one of us is different,or every story we write is
different.
Every author is different, andyou have to find that, seed,
that thing for each story andthen make it within that the
(23:10):
best you are able to make itwith whatever resources you have
, but you have to make sure itstays yours, like you said.
I don't know imperfections, Iguess, yes, but more like
uniqueness.
You know the thing that makeseach of us who we are, that
makes each story stand out,because none of us are telling
an original story right, they'veall been told.
(23:33):
We're putting the unique spinon it that only we could do.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, maybe imperfections wasn't quite the
right word, but I know whatyou're saying I mean it is
imperfect, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It's the humanity of it, really.
I mean, that is the humanity.
It's because we are human.
We are not perfect.
You cannot have a perfect voice, or, as you said, you'd be a
robot, right?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
To have the perfect tone.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
To have the perfectly clear tone.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know, know it's gonna have.
It has to be a robot like.
That's why auto-tune sounds sodifferent from a live
performance yeah, right and alsoit's.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
It's such a subjective field in that every
reader is going to bring whatthey bring to it, so what is
perfect to one reader is notperfect to another one.
Yeah, it's a moving target thatdoesn't exist Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Oh yeah, amen to that one.
All you got to do is go andread reviews on your own books
or other, like sometimes I'll.
If I, if I have gotten a badreview, um, I'll go and find a
book by some, a classic, anauthor, that is just like a
household name.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Jane Austen.
I went and looked up Pride andPrejudice once doing this.
Yeah, she has negative reviews.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, and then you go and you look and you find their
one-star reviews and you'relike, yeah, I'm all right, it
puts it in perspective.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Right, and that's I mean.
You got right to the heart ofit.
You cannot please every reader.
You cannot please every agent.
You cannot make every editorwant your book.
So write the one you want towrite, make it the best you can
make it and then stand behind it.
You know, like that's yourstory.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Well, I think that's a good transition point then
into the mindset or theroadblocks that authors get in,
that sort of motivation andability to maybe move past
negative reviews or other thingsthere.
So what is the roadblock thatyou see on that side of the
creative life?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Mm-hmm, I always call these the demons and I write
about them a lot in my blog.
I think we all, I think everyhuman, has demons, but certainly
as creatives, I think everybodyhas.
Whatever your specific demon isit might be a comparison, or
procrastination, or impostersyndrome, or perfectionism, or
(25:58):
fear of failure or fear ofsuccess or fear of losing
control.
Whatever it is they tend to sortof be with us, the same demons,
forever, and they go like theycyclically come out of their
cave and party in your psyche.
And when artists are people whoidentify so strongly with their
(26:19):
art that when the demons dotheir normal little demon thing
and start kind of attacking ourself-confidence, it undermines
not just our belief in ourwriting, it can undermine our
entire belief in ourselves.
And one of the things I amreally focused on right now in
my work, my teaching and mywriting and presenting is to
(26:40):
help writers regain that senseof agency and autonomy we were
talking about this before therecording started In a career
where often the person with theleast amount of actual control
over a lot of elements is theartist.
And yet you can take the reinsof your own career and create
one that you can sustain happilyfor as long as you choose to
(27:02):
pursue it.
It's an attitude shift, it's amindset shift and taking control
of the things that are withinyour control, and that includes
the demons.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So how would you coach?
So, as you're naming all thosedemons, I'm going yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes, I don't know, Idon't know if there was one.
You said that I've never hadcome and sit down and try to
have a cup of coffee with me.
You know, I've rejected some ofthem.
(27:34):
I'm pretty good at it, andothers of them I take for car
rides periodically, periodicallyso, but like so, how would you
coach a writer to do that to?
You know, get into a?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
healthier mindset, fight their demons.
So I think I always say thefirst step is that you have to
identify and accept them,because what the first thing
most of us do is go first of all.
We hate it.
You know we go.
I hate feeling thisperfectionism or I I hate
feeling lack of self-confidencein myself and so we try to
almost bully ourselves intoovercoming it.
And that is counterproductivebecause it makes us hate
(28:13):
ourselves for hating ourselves,it makes us beat ourselves up
for beating ourselves up andyou're kind of spiraling more
and more.
So first see what's happeningand then just sort of accept
that this is normal when Ifinally because I do, I have
imposter syndrome or have hadlike crazy, and cyclically it
(28:33):
comes back and I always remindmyself I'm never going to not
have imposter syndrome.
It's there but it arose out ofthe child.
Part of me misapprehended thepain that I was caused in
childhood for some reason andsaid here's how we protect
ourselves we must be infallible,we must be perfect, we must
(28:56):
know everything or you are acomplete fraud.
So that's a valid way to try toprotect the psyche.
But it's a child's way and wehave to remember we're the
rational adult.
So you have to kind ofrecognize that this is a part of
you, but it's a normal part ofyou and it's nothing to fight
against or hate.
So I kind of I personify mylittle demons and I picture them
(29:19):
as the little Underwood ham,little red devils, because it
makes them harmless, and I justbefriend them.
And I picture them as thelittle Underwood ham, little red
devils, because it makes themharmless, and I just befriend
them.
And I go.
I see you little perfectionismdemon.
I see you imposter demon.
So what is it you want me toknow?
And then we have to listen toourselves and be kind to
ourselves and figure out what isit we are actually afraid of.
And that just means askingyourself a lot of why?
(29:41):
Questions.
Am I afraid?
Diagnose the problem?
Basically it's editing for yourpsyche.
So is it a problem of the actualmanuscript?
Well, that's fixable, right?
If it's something that's notworking, if it's mid-book sag or
you've lost the thread of theplot or whatever the problem is,
that's a fixable problem.
So take a break and then pushthrough that, because you have
(30:04):
to have faith that you have doneit before and you will do it
again and embrace the suck.
It's going to be bad before itgets better, because that's what
construction looks like.
It's messy, but you know you'lldo it.
You just have to get throughthe yucky part and then you know
you can't spin flax into goldunless you have some flax.
So just vomit up some flax andthen you will fix it later To
(30:29):
mix metaphors.
If it is career related, thenyou assess that.
Are you worried that you'regetting too many rejections?
Well, that's also a diagnosableproblem and you can fix that
problem.
Is it that your editor leftyour pub house and now you're
orphaned?
Okay, that sucks, but this is abusiness full of ups and downs.
You can't control that thing.
The part you can control iswhat you do next.
(30:50):
What are your career goals?
How do you meet those goals andwhat are other avenues for you
to do that?
If it is situational oh, I haveno time to write, I can't get
my head in the right place, I'mdistracted by life those are
also diagnosable, fixableproblems.
The ones that are hard is whenit is the psyche problems, the
(31:10):
demon problems.
So that's when I think we haveto.
There's a Buddhist proverb Ilove about the second arrow, and
it's a hunter is in the.
Basically, I'm mangling it.
But a hunter is in the forest.
He gets struck by someone'sanother hunter's arrow and
instead of pulling it out, hestarts moaning oh, this hurts,
(31:33):
why did this happen to me?
What am I going to do?
And that's the second arrow.
It says so that's where thedemons come in.
I think they're the secondarrow.
So we just have to admit thatthis has happened.
We're feeling this.
What needs to be done toovercome it?
And there are a variety of waysto do that.
I recommend three things.
(31:55):
One is know what your missionstatement is as an artist and
actually write it out.
Know what your why is, whatmade you want to do this and
what your enough is, what's yourdefinition of success, and then
what's your plan to get there.
And that's a step-by-step thing.
If you're struggling in yourstory, know the same thing about
(32:15):
your story.
What is the central storyquestion that you wanted to
address?
That's the guiding light thatkeeps you on track.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That's kind of amazing.
That's maybe the best answerI've heard to that question so
far.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
I'm glad to hear that because it felt like I was off
on the tree branches, becauseit's not a small problem.
I mean it's hard to addressthese things?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It really is not, but I love that two arrow metaphor,
or, you know, saying I thinkthat's, that's absolutely
brilliant.
And then this is something youknow we talk about all the time
too is that you have tounderstanding your why, creating
a mission statement, knowingwhat you are trying to do, what
you want from your book or yourcareer, depending on what you're
(33:02):
looking at.
You know, setting realistic, um, approachable goals that are
that have achievable outcomes orthat you can actually control
on your own and not relying onthose Um, I I call them, you
know, uh, process goals ratherthan outcome goals.
If you have process goals, youcan achieve that.
If you have outcome goals sorry, but you know we're creative
(33:26):
professionals where the marketis the market.
It's how you can't necessarilysay I'm going to hit the New
York times bestseller on mydebut novel, like that would be
awesome, but that's an outcomegoal that you can't control.
You can control creating thebook to the best of your ability
.
You can't control how it'sactually going to be received.
So I love that.
I think it was such a very like, all encompassing answer to
(33:52):
what is the creative life.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Well, it's kind of like to distill it.
It's to me it sounds like whatyou're really saying is tackle
this proactively, not reactively, yeah.
Yeah, it's a great way to sayit, I think in creative things
it is very common whether it'sacting or music or writing or
(34:18):
art it's very common to createsomething and then sit there and
chew on your fingernails andwait to see if it's received.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah.
So you're basically always inthe mode of will I be chosen?
You're a beggar at the table,exactly, and you are the genesis
of.
I mean, none of it existswithout you, and yet I think we
are all that's a great way toput it we are all in reactive
mode, waiting for that externalvalidation, whereas the secret
to all of this, I think, to beable to sustain a career that's
(34:49):
meaningful to you for as long asit is, is to realize that you
generate all of that and you can, regardless of what those
outcomes are.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Because we've all heard the stories, right.
We've all heard the stories ofthe incredibly famous household
name creatives in any of thoseindustries who were rejected.
Barbara Streisand was told youknow, you can't sing, don't give
up your day job.
And now she's Barbara Streisand, you know what I mean it's like
(35:22):
her voice teacher must befeeling stupid.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
The reality of art is that most of us aren't Barbara
Streisand, and if that's, notokay, then you are setting
yourself up in a career with adream where the odds of you
actually achieving it areminuscule, and so how can you
ever be happy, whereas if youreassess what's driving you to
do this and where you get yoursatisfaction from it?
(35:43):
I have a blog post I've beenworking on called that guy you
saw on that thing that time, andit's basically about because
because I did used to be anactor, I think about all of
these actors.
Like you have your.
You star in a TV show.
I can't think of the actor'sname, but there was a Canadian
show called being Erica, hugehit.
She was in it for I don't knowhow many years as the lead, and
(36:05):
now you see her in these tinylittle supporting roles in other
shows.
That's the business.
If that is not enough for youbecause that's the likelihood of
what your career will be upsand downs Sometimes you're gonna
be a hit, sometimes you're not.
Maybe you're JK Rowling, barbraStreisand, probably you're not
(36:25):
Is it still going to befulfilling for you?
If it's not and you know thatat the outset my God, save
yourself from a lifetime ofheartache.
But if you can accept that youcan't control what's going to
happen as far as the outcome ofyour work, but you can control
your day-to-day doing of it andwhat happens with your career.
(36:46):
As far as those elements thatare within your control, you can
be satisfied for a lifetimewith that and have a meaningful
career doing the thing thatfeeds your soul.
What a privilege that is.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
You know and I do think a lot of that goes back to
what you said somewhere in thisincredibly wise conversation
you said something aboutidentifying, and I think that
that's kind of key, like we arewriters, but we are more than
writers.
Yeah, you know, we, we are.
(37:20):
Whatever we are, we're sisters,we're daughters, we're wives
we're mothers, we're children,we're all things.
We are many things you know andum, and we're human beings.
You know who I believe areintrinsically valuable.
So you, it's like you are many,many things.
(37:43):
Writer is just one of them.
So I don't know, maybe thathelps with the ups and downs.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
It feels like writing is life, but it's really not,
and I love that you say that,because I think that's part of
it too is that we do keep intoperspective that we are not our
writing, we are not ourcreativity.
That is a huge part of who weare.
But there's so much more to ameaningful life and you've got
to find a way to work to fitthat identity and that element
(38:12):
of yourself into all the otherelements of what make your life
fulfilling.
This is all the stuff I'mworking on in this follow-up
book.
You and I the three of us weretalking before about.
I've always focused on the hardcraft skills working on.
In this follow-up book you and Ithe three of us were talking
before about.
I've always focused on the hardcraft skills, and I was working
on another hard craft book tofollow intuitive editing.
But I this is so I hear so manyauthors struggling with exactly
(38:35):
this.
Right now, at a time wherethere is both more opportunity
for authors than there's everbeen and also more competition
and less control and morechallenges than there's ever
been, and also more competitionand less control and more
challenges than there have everbeen how can we operate within
that framework and stillmaintain the satisfaction of our
art, which you know, if youdon't have that?
(38:55):
That's the whole crux ofeverything, as soon as we become
little trained monkeys who arejust churning out product.
That's not why most of us gotinto this.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think that's a really key point is that, and I
think that's the struggle of thecreative career, and it doesn't
matter if it's writing or ifit's music or if it's you know
any number of things.
We are artists, we are creativepeople who put our hearts and
souls on the page, who arecrafting this story, and it's
(39:29):
it's crafting right.
And then we're also, because ofthe modern era, business people
, and we have to.
We have to think professionally, we have to think about the
market.
We have to think about howwe're going to sell things.
What's the cover going to looklike?
We've got to do all these otherthings.
I mean, I think it's more truefor indies than it is maybe for
(39:49):
traditionally published authors,but even the traditionally
published authors, you'rethinking about how are you going
to reach that agent?
Now you have to do your ownmarketing.
So we have to be on socialmedia.
It's a whole, nother differentkind of content creation, and so
we're balancing this drive forart and self-expression with a
(40:12):
drive for financialsustainability for financial
income money right, Because wewant to be paid for our work.
This is work.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And should be, and we should be paid for it.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
This is not just for the common good, I mean, it's
partially, but not just for that.
We need to be compensated forthe work we're putting in for
people and the entertainmentthat we're providing.
And so finding that balancingpoint I think, is right now.
You know it's anothertransition point in the industry
where that balance point keepsshifting, and trying to figure
(40:48):
out each of us individuallywhere that lies is perhaps the
trickiest part of the job, butit's happened with music
industry, it happened with thefilm industry.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Actually, in a lot of ways, I think this is probably
ultimately maybe a good shift inour industry, because it does
put more autonomy, potentially,in authors' hands.
I mean, think about it 20 yearsago, when I started in this
business, 30 years ago, authorsdid not have the options that
they have now.
Imagine, you know, having toload up your books literally in
(41:20):
the trunk of your car and goplaces to sell them.
Imagine having to reach yourreaders through whatever
fanzines or just, you know,hoping that they saw you at a
local event.
Now we have ways to reach outto them.
We have blogs, newsletters,substack.
We can sell our own books.
We can, whatever it is, even ifwe're going to have a
(41:44):
traditional path.
We have all these options forraising our own profile, for
supporting the marketing staffin-house.
And I agree with you, megan.
I think that traditionalpublishing still requires not
quite the same things as indieauthors, but a lot of the same
things and certainly as mucheffort as you would have to put
in as an indie author.
You just have certain parts ofit taken out of your hands.
(42:05):
So that's all opportunity.
It's all also challenge, andevery author is different.
You know, not all of us haveboth the artistic and the
business mindset, and that is ahard thing.
So you do, I agree with you,megan.
I think you do have to findwhat's the balance that works
for you.
Like, if you want to make sixthis is what kills me is the
(42:25):
dream that's always peddled toauthors at some conferences or
presentations, where it's like Imake six figures you know, in
my pajamas, and you can too Wellsure you can.
Here's what that entailspajamas, and you can too Well
sure you can.
Here's what that entails.
And you have to decide do youwant to do those things?
(42:47):
Also, I remember I can'tremember which author it was,
but she was at a conference andshe was very successful in
depublished, and someone said toher well, how do you find time
for your own pursuits and spendtime with your family and all
that?
And she said well, they allunderstand that right now
there's no time for that.
That'll come later in my life.
And I just thought, okay, I getthat.
That is what it takes to dowhat she's doing.
Is that actually worth it foryou?
(43:08):
Which is what I mean by knowyour why and know you're enough.
Is that what success looks likefor you, or would you rather
work maybe some other job thatgets you the financial stability
you need and have much morefreedom creatively?
It's your call to make.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, and the timing of that, I think, is also your
call to make, because, goingback to being patient or not,
depending on your lifestyle, Imean, like I started writing my
what became my first publishednovel.
I'd been writing for years, butthis was became my first
published novel with a newbornat home, right.
(43:47):
So my priority was my kids andhas been, you know, up up till
now.
So that was you know she's.
She's 12 now, my oldest.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
I did my job.
She's on her own you know she's.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
She's 12 now my oldest.
I did my job.
She's on her own, so she's done.
No, no, but.
But you know, now they're inschool, they've got activities,
the lifestyle is a little bitdifferent, things are starting
to open up a little bit more andI can see on the horizon you
know, that future and it's like,yeah, okay.
So for the first, you know 18years of my what I'll call my
professional writing life.
(44:20):
You know 18 years of my whatI'll call my professional
writing life.
I'm not going to be full-timeauthoring.
I'm not going to be staying uptill three in the morning to
write, because I can't functionthat way and that's how I am.
But there are other authors whomaybe don't have kids at home,
or they have a differentlifestyle that allows them to be
, you know, night owls, or theyhave other things right.
They can dedicate more to this,this professional career, than
(44:46):
what I want to do.
But you can time it.
So maybe in the future they dohave kids and then they have to
back off a little and you knowit shifts, it changes.
So you have to kind of look atthe the hills and valleys of
your own life in order to figureout what is actually going to
be sustainable and what you wantfrom your life and your career.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I think those are two of the most important
considerations that you justsaid.
What is sustainable and what doyou actually want and know what
that entails Like I think we gointo this with these blind
dreams of the goal that we wantwithout.
I mean, you said you have to bea business person to some
degree, so you are entering awriting business.
What do your goals actuallyentail and do those actually
(45:30):
look like what you had in mindwhen you said you wanted to be a
full-time writer?
Or were you picturing being upin your attic and being creative
all day long and not realizing?
Oh wait, there's a whole bunchof stuff that goes with it too.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
And that's none of that.
There's no right or wrong path.
It's for every author todetermine what's right for them.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, but I but I do think reality facing the reality
is what's key.
It sounds like your book isgoing to be taking people
through that and I feel likeMegan and I.
Part of the reason we startedthis podcast was to help writers
, because we used to run anorganization called OC Writers
(46:06):
and it was like a local writinggroup going all these coffee
shop meetings and all thesemeetings at smaller conferences
or writers guilds and groups,you just meet so many people who
have an unrealisticunderstanding of what the
business is.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
You know, I've had so many MFA graduates tell me that
they never addressed that, evenin their MFA program, and that
is a huge part of building a.
It is a central part ofbuilding a writing career.
It's not just the writing, anymore than you know.
If you want to make a widget,it's not just about making the
widget, it's the infrastructure.
(46:45):
And that's the part I think wehave to figure out what we want
and be very deliberate aboutdeveloping.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
That's where your autonomy comes from.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I actually have a book and I don't remember the
author's name, but I have a bookabout that this guy who went
through the whole MFA program hewas a screenplay writer and
came out the other side and thenit was gobsmacked Like wait a
minute, you know, because hesaid, if you think about it, an
MFA program is like.
It's like summer camp forcreatives and everybody's going
(47:16):
to tell you you're amazing andeverything's wonderful and
you're all delving into thethemes and all this and you get
out and you're like themes, wedon't care about themes.
How many naked women are inyour movie?
You know what's going to makeitself yeah exactly and he was
like oh my gosh.
You know, nobody prepares us forthe reality of these businesses
(47:36):
.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
You know, and and they're so completely mercurial.
You know like you may be theMFA who gets the big publishing
contract on your New York Timesdarling, and maybe you're not.
Maybe you're the one that theygo this is beautiful, but we
can't sell it next.
You know, like we can't controlany of that.
So, what makes it worthwhile toyou.
As long as we keep coming backto that, I think that's where we
(48:00):
can maintain our sense ofequanimity and control and joy.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So joy, yes joy, I love that word.
So when you have your new bookpublished, did we even say the
title.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
I don't think so.
The Intuitive Author.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, it's the Intuitive Author how to grow and
sustain a happier writingcareer, which I just again.
I love that title, I think.
I don't know.
I'm all about intuition, Iguess.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, well, of course we are right.
We're right brain, left brainpeople.
A lot of us are more rightbrain and I do think that it's
there's so much focus especiallyI mean it grew out of the
editing thing because there's somuch approach to editing as if
it were this mechanical,technical process and it isn't
just that right Like, it isstill a creative process and
it's kind of the same increating the career you are
(48:53):
creating a creative career.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
So of course there's intuition and creativity that
goes into it.
Yeah, yeah.
So when that book comes out, weobviously are going to have to
have you back on, because thishas been just.
I mean, I do feel like we'reall preaching to the choir here,
talking to each other, but I dothink that our listeners are
going to love this one becauseit's just so broad.
You know it's just so broad.
There is so much the writingcraft I mean is so important.
(49:21):
Much the writing craft I mean isso important because you might
as we've been saying, we're kindof doing quick tips episodes on
writing craft this month youmight be able to market a really
crappy book and sell somecopies, but your chances of
selling some more books afterthat are pretty slim.
If you do so, you know you'reshooting yourself in the foot.
So it is the place we all startis learning to write a passable
(49:44):
book, you know, a book thatchecks the boxes for at least
some people, and you knowgetting that done.
And but in order to do it'ssort of the witch came first the
chicken or the egg, because inorder to do that, I think you
have to do also what you'retalking about in your new book,
which is what kind of career doyou want?
You know, because even withthat, I mean, there are a lot of
(50:08):
writers who've made a lot ofmoney writing a book a month and
I'm sure that they are decentcraftsmen or they would not be
able to sell all those books,but they're also not.
They don't have the luxury oftaking the time to really polish
and hone and sculpt that storyeither, and maybe they're okay
(50:29):
with that.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
That's the thing.
If they're great at that, greatgood for you.
But somebody else would not beRight, and stuff like that can
be held up as the school proof.
One size fits all model if youjust work hard enough.
But that's not right for everyauthor, because it requires
things of you that may not bewhat your goals were when you
got into this as a career.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
And you may, and you just may not have their skill
set either you know right, oh,that's a great point.
It's like my mind.
I get like a third of the wayinto a book and every plot idea
I thought was going to happenjust crashes and burns and I go
no, this is the stupidest bookanybody has ever decided to
write.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
That's the demons, that's the demons coming in
right there.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Work it all out again , and then I get about two
thirds through the book and I doit again.
Work it all out again, and thenI get about two thirds through
the book and I do it again.
Oh wow, this is just so lame, Ihave to do it again.
So everybody has their process.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
That's just mine, what you just said, all the
things that creatives arebalancing.
You're balancing the craft,you're balancing the inner
demons, you're balancing whatthe career demands.
You're balancing the rest ofyour life.
That's a lot of balls in theair, yeah, yeah.
And I think we think of it somuch as the writing part and we
don't take into account how manyother things writers are also
(51:51):
grappling with and need thetools to deal with.
So, before I ask you to tellpeople where they can, find out
more about you and your books.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I have a new career idea for you, tiffany.
Lay it on me.
I ask you to tell people wherethey can find out more about you
and your books.
I have a new career idea foryou.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Tiffany.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Lay it on me I think you should become a writer.
Therapist.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
And then we can all call you and for 60 bucks an
hour we can go to Tiffany.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
I'm so upset?
No, it's a new podcast.
You're going to be like thewriter therapist online to call
in.
It's a call in show the dearTiffany.
I love this.
People present their problemsand you, you help them work it
through.
I love it.
So now you have your podcastidea and I'll be your first.
(52:36):
I will be your first.
It will be your first, oh mygosh.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yes, tiffany, this was so good and honestly, I do
think I'm not sure I can affordyou for editing, but, like for
therapy, I totally need you.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
I loved this conversation.
I love that word, that you guysare talking about it on your
podcast.
As much as it's difficult tosee, so many authors are
struggling with this right nowin the current challenging
environment.
I love hearing them talk aboutit because that's the way we all
find our way through it.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, that is beautiful.
That's so good.
So tell people where they,because they are going to run
and not walk.
Tell people where they can findout more about you and your
books and your website and allthe things you have to offer.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Probably the easiest way is just to go to the website
that's foxprinteditorialcom Fox, like the little animal, my
little totem animal, and that'swhere you'll find I do a weekly
blog that is full of craft tipsand also a lot of the stuff that
you, that we've all beentalking about here the the
squishier side I call it thecareer stuff and then I also
(53:46):
have online courses.
I have a ton of free resources,including free downloadables on
hiring an editor, what to lookfor, what it should cost, how to
vet them.
I have a large checklist ofself-editing checklist that will
help you when you're gettingyour manuscript as strong as you
can get it.
I've got a beta reader template.
There's a ton of free stuff onthere.
(54:07):
So, best Place Box PrintEditorial you can find my book
Intuitive Editing there, and thenew one will also be announced
there as soon as I have aproduction date for it.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Now, that's great.
I am going to your website whenwe get off this call.
So, yeah, all the good things.
So, listeners, I hope you gotas much out of this as me and
Megan did, because we sure did.
And I just wanted to give you aquick reminder, because every
single person we talk to thismonth, this topic gets brought
(54:39):
up.
If you are struggling throughunderstanding your brand and
your author promise and what onearth you're trying to do, we do
have a free seven-day course onour website, authorwheelcom.
That's called Seven Days toClarity Uncover your Author
Purpose, and we walk you throughsome of these things, including
(55:01):
how to come up with an authormission statement and tagline.
So you can run over toauthorwheelcom and find that
there.
And also, if you enjoyed thisepisode, we surely would wish
you'd consider sponsoring us foras little as $3 a month.
It helps us keep the lights onand keep this podcast rolling
(55:25):
and also, if you do, we willgive you a sponsor shout out and
we'll tell the world about yourbooks or your author service,
whatever it is you want us totell people about.
So again, that link, all thelinks to all the wonderful
things we talked about are inthe show notes and until next
time, keep your stories rolling.
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
So I loved this interview.
I think Tiffany is justbrilliant.
If I had an idea for a newseries and I felt like I really
needed some professionalbrainstorming, I'm not sure I
could afford her or she wouldhave time for me, but I would
love to hire her.
You guys are in for a treat inthis interview.
She's really the real deal andshe's worked with indie authors
(00:37):
traditionally published big five.
She's been doing this a longtime and she really knows her
stuff.
I thought it was great yeah, itwas.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It was a fun interview, so um it was yeah
stay tuned, stay tuned, yes,stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So, as for me, this week I'm focused really on
newsletters and Facebook ads.
Facebook has been going througha bit of an ad crisis, not just
for authors, but advertising.
They're calling it theMetapocalypse, which it has not
been that bad for me, but I'mdefinitely seeing a bit of a
downshift in my ROI, so I amgoing to try an Amazon ad or two
(01:18):
to try to make up thedifference and really focus in
on a few other marketing tactics.
Really focus in on a few othermarketing tactics.
I want to get a few things inplace, also to promote the audio
book, which is actually comingout next week.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Now, but that's through Tantor, so you're not
going to advertise that one,correct?
It's just cross promotions andstuff.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, and I want to let my list know and I'm know
and I'm going to get a few coatsfor free audiobooks I want to
send to people who will give itits first few reviews.
And yeah, just jump up and downand say a whole lot about it on
social media and then I can addyou know, in my Facebook ads a
(02:01):
lot of the time I'll say print,digital and audio, and some
people put that within the copyof their ad.
So they'll actually put withinthe copy.
They'll say, you know, printwith a link, digital or ebook
with a link, and audio with alink, digital or ebook with a
(02:22):
link and audio with a link, andit just goes to the product page
.
But whichever segment of theproduct page you know should
come up first and I mean thatwouldn't cost me any more at all
to do and I could put that in.
Yeah yeah, because I mean it'snot like I'm going to make a
(02:42):
whole ton of money right upfront from that because I had an
advance.
So it has to earn out itsadvance.
But you know, I'd like to worktoward that Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So, anyway, that's pretty much it for me.
I'm still working my waythrough the keep.
And how about you?
What are you?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
doing Well.
This week I am back to work onAetherburned, which is the Rise
of Lilith, book 3, after havingto pause a bit because of all
the other madness that you know.
I thought I could do all thethings.
It turns out you can't quite doeverything you want to do all
at once.
Really, I did not know that.
(03:23):
No matter how many, many timesI try to learn this lesson, I
find myself doing the same thingover and over again.
Anyhow, uh, but yeah.
So you know, now theKickstarter's over and um, you
know I got the bagger kit out.
I'm working on the fulfillmentof all of that, but I can
finally get back to work on thethird book, which is going to be
(03:45):
amazing.
And I've been using plotter toget myself reorganized.
You know I kind of had to likerediscover the story threads,
kind of, you know, uncover theplot holes and stuff from where
I left off.
And I have to say it is such agreat tool to help with story
structure, and I mean obviouslyfor the outliners out there.
Like doing it in the prewriting phase makes a lot of
(04:06):
sense.
I, my brain, doesn't work thatway, so I'm using it in the
midst of writing now to sort offind those story threads that
I've already written but havemaybe been dropped, or the plot
holes that still need to befilled, and kind of get me back
into the swing of things, tofinish it out to the big battle
(04:26):
scene at the end, which is, youknow, I'm right there, actually.
So, as a side note, if youhaven't already listened to our
interviews with Cameron Sutterwhich was season five, episode
10, and Troy Lambert, season two, episode eight, you should
totally go back and listen tothose episodes to find out about
all the great things thatPlotter has done and has going
(04:50):
on.
So it's a great, it's a greattool.
I've really been enjoying it.
Alrighty, I think that's it fornow, so let's get into the
interview with Tiffany.
Today's guest is Tiffany YatesMartin.
She spent nearly 30 years as aneditor in the publishing
industry, working with majorpublishers and New York Times,
washington Post, wall StreetJournal and USA Today,
(05:12):
bestselling and award-winningauthors, as well as indie and
newer writers.
She's the founder of Fox PrintEditorial, a Writer's Digest Top
100 Best Websites for Writersin 2023 and 2024, which is
amazing and author of IntuitiveEditing, a Creative and
Practical Guide to Revising yourWriting.
(05:32):
She's a regular contributor towriters outlets like Writer's
Digest, jane Friedman and WriterUnboxed, and a frequent
presenter and keynote speakerfor writers organizations around
the country.
Under her pen name, phoebe Fox,she is the author of six novels
, so welcome, Tiffany.
We're excited to have you heretoday.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Thanks, I'm so happy to join you guys.
I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, I am really looking forward to this
conversation.
I am currently editing, goingover a series that was published
and is taken down, and redoingall the books.
So I'm like, as Megan isintroducing you, I'm thinking,
oh, I've got to go get your book.
I think it would be right up myalley right now.
(06:15):
Oh, I hope so.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
One of my missions with it was I love editing.
I think it's where the magichappens.
I think it's where the storybecomes the vision you had in
your head, and I know so manyauthors are intimidated or
overwhelmed by it because wedon't actually teach editing
right.
We teach writing craft, and somy part of not just demystifying
the actual process but I washoping that if people could get
(06:36):
excited about editing, my workon earth is done.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I love that.
Yeah, I actually like editing.
I'm weird, but I love that.
Yeah, yeah, I actually likeediting.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I'm weird, but I love that.
Yeah, yeah, I do.
I do too.
Actually, I actually find thewriting more difficult than the
editing.
I'm the same, but only in myown work.
I don't want to do otherpeople's stuff.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yes, I wish someone would hand me my first draft so
that I could then edit it,because that's the easy part,
because it is harder, I think,yeah, often it can be harder,
but it really is where you getto dig in and do the stuff that
we, most of us, became writersto do, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I love, I love that it's intuitive editing.
Now we're totally off on atangent already, but I'm very
curious.
So what does intuitive editingmean to you?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
I love that question.
So most authors because I thinkwe don't teach editing when they
finish their draft they go backto the beginning and they start
working through it and try to,you know like, chronologically,
go through a page at a time andfix things and we're skipping
the editing process.
We're trying to start revisingbefore we've actually seen what
(07:41):
we have on the page, revisingbefore we've actually seen what
we have on the page.
So part of it is just focusingon the editing itself, but also
a big part of what makes itintuitive is that a lot of times
I'll hear from authors who sayyou know, I faithfully followed
the hero's journey or thethree-act structure or save the
cat.
I think we're taught craft in away sometimes that it feels
like we're imposing an outsidestructure on the story instead
(08:05):
of growing the story from theinside to what it needs to be
organically and cohesively.
So intuitive editing is abouttaking the hard craft skills and
melding it with creating thestory that you're trying to
create, not the one that somewriting guru or dogma has
suggested would be the rightstructure for you.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh, I love that.
Yep, I'm going to go off andgrab that book like today.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Me too.
You just you've just sold twocopies.
Look at that.
Absolutely yeah.
You know just um we're.
We always ask this question ofeverybody, and so, before I just
totally pick your brain onediting, because I'm just dying
to do it, can you give us alittle synopsis of how you got
(08:54):
into this job and what led youto become the amazing Tiffany
Yates Martin that you are today?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I came in backward.
It's so weird.
I was an actor, that's all Iever thought I was going to do.
And so I was living inManhattan in my early 20s.
I had an English literaturedegree because those were the
classes I really enjoyed and Iwas waiting tables like every
other actor on the planet and Ididn't want to do that forever.
And so I thought, well, whatcan I do that would be somewhat
(09:22):
portable and use the limitedskills I have with my English
lit degree.
And I sent away for a pamphletin the New York Times classified
section that's how long ago.
This was called how to Get Paidfor Reading Books.
And I thought this is going tobe such a scam and I was such a
poor, starving artist at thetime.
But I scraped up the money forit and, sure enough, it actually
(09:45):
had great information on how tocreate a proofreading and copy
editing career.
So I taught myself the skills.
I sent out the resumes theysend you tests.
I started working with onepublisher and then it's a small
world.
So, little by little, beforelong, I was working with most of
the big six at the time, fivenow and then, about maybe 15
(10:06):
years ago, I transitioned intodevelopmental editing, which I
didn't realize at the time.
But the copy editing was thegreatest training ground in the
world.
For that it was like aninternship, because this was
before.
I'm so dating myself but thiswas before electronic editing.
So when I worked on something Igot to see what had been done to
(10:26):
it before and I got to witnessthe editing process with authors
like Walter Mosley and PatConroy and Jennifer Weiner.
It was astonishing.
So when I started dev editing,I mean that just stood me in
such great stead and that's whatI've been doing since.
With the pandemic I expanded toa lot of teaching and
presenting and speaking andwriting.
(10:48):
But I still do the editing dayby day because it's where the
material comes from.
You know, first of all I loveit, but also, if I'm going to be
talking about this stuff andcoming up with ideas and
theories to present, I need tobe doing the hands-on work.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So do you?
Do you use your own advice fromthe intuitive editing book when
you are doing edit,developmental editing for other
authors A hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, this, the book, was sort of born out of the way
I work as an editor and whatI'm what I'm.
So I always differentiate it,as I said, between editing and
revising, and you can think ofediting as assessing and
revising as addressing.
And authors should developskills in writing, editing and
(11:36):
revising.
But the editing and revisingare two different skills.
So if we learn to see in ourown writing what's not holding
together as strongly as it could, revision is not the onerous
process that it usually is.
Because we're trying.
It's like you're going throughthe forest without ever looking
at the map.
Editing gives you the map.
So I assess things Generally.
(11:58):
I start with what I call theholy trinity of story, which is
character, stakes and plot.
See how all that's holding up.
And then I just circle in evercloser with macro edits, as
there's holy trinity.
And then micro edits are thingslike suspense and tension,
momentum point of view, showingand telling pace it's not quite
the same as momentum voice andthen just circle in closer and
(12:21):
closer.
With publishers.
I often do multiple passes,which gives us the luxury of
kind of working like a sculptordoes, meaning first you rough
out the general shape and thenyou hone it ever finer on each
pass, and it's a nice way towork with authors.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Okay, I want to.
Can I hire you?
Are you open, for I'm sure youcould hire her.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I actually am.
I have really limitedavailability, unfortunately,
right now.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
And periodically.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I have to shut it down just until I can get caught
up, but I'm getting ready toopen up for fall, so oh wow, all
right, all right.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Well, so there you go , everybody.
If you like the idea ofsculpting your novel into shape,
because that's amazing On ourlist for later this year, that's
great, that's great, but thereare also skills that we can
master ourselves.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
I mean, I think there is.
It's invaluable to have anoutside perspective, but, like I
have a whole chapter in thebook about, I don't think there
should be a financial barrier tothis career, and editing is a
very expensive procedure.
Yeah, and there are options.
First of all, as I said, whileeditors are invaluable, these
are core writer skills, and sothe book is also designed to
(13:35):
help you develop them, so thatyou need editing less and less
and less.
That said, it's always going tohelp you to have someone hold
up the mirror to show you whatyou have on the page, versus all
the blanks you're filling in inyour head because you know your
story so well.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Absolutely Well.
We always preach get an editorwhatever you can afford, kind of
a thing.
But I do think that it's easierto have a great relationship
with your editor if you're nothanding them in a hot mess.
Well, you certainly get moreout of it, you, your editor, if
you're not handing them in a hotmess.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well, you certainly get more out of it.
You know, if you're sometimesright after almost every year,
right after Nano, I get a lot ofqueries of people saying I'm
ready to go and I'm like you'renot.
Though, If you come to aneditor with a first draft, yes,
they can help you with it, butyou're taking a lot of resources
, money, time, energy,addressing things that are core
(14:29):
issues that you could do on yourown, with more revision passes,
beta readers, whatever it takesto get it.
I always say you're ready towork with an editor when you get
to the place where you cannotmake it any more polished than
it is, but you know it's stillnot quite there yet.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, it's interesting about that too is
that I think people want editorsto to fix something that is
very difficult for an editor tofix, and the reason I say this
is in the process of rewritingmy first series.
I looked at the first book andI couldn't believe I got a
(15:08):
publisher for that book.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Now that I've written .
Speaker 1 (15:11):
X number of books.
I'm like this is terrible.
I mean, I literally kept maybe25 to 30% of that book and
rewrote everything else and asI'm doing it, I'm remembering
notes from my editor back thenand she was telling me some of
these things, but I did not getit.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Well, you weren't the writer then that you probably
are now.
That's the hard part aboutgoing back to our older work.
Is we evolved?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
as creators, and I do think that that's something,
too, that sometimes people arein such a hurry.
I do think that that'ssomething too, that sometimes
people are in such a hurry andthat if they just wrote a bunch
more, even books that are nevergoing to go anywhere, or that
could sit in their hard driveuntil they've written five or
six books, and then they couldgo back and go oh, now I know
(15:59):
how to fix this.
It's like it's.
It's not always somethingtotally cerebral.
That's why I love what you said.
The title intuitive In order todevelop intuition.
It just takes time.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Time and practice it does.
And I do think sometimes we arein a hurry because we you know
most of us get into this becausewe love books, we love reading,
we love story and we have tonsof them in our head and that's
great.
But you wouldn't go into even Imean, let alone a skilled
profession.
Right, you could say, oh, abrain surgeon.
You wouldn't go into thatwithout a residency and an
(16:30):
internship and lots of practice.
But let's take even othercreative fields.
Nobody would think they couldbe a prima ballerina or a you
know what do you call them in anorchestra, like a first chair
violinist.
You know you can't do thatwithout years of study and
practice.
And yet we think we're going tobe able to sit down, pound out
a story and be JK Rowling.
(16:52):
And that's not denigratinganybody like that's.
Of course we all have thatdream, but it does take work,
like we were talking a minuteago, even editing.
I don't know that I could be asum as effective an editor as I
think I am without those.
You know that 12, 13 years oftraining I had as an essentially
(17:14):
an internship, working as acopy editor, seeing it done.
It's the same thing withwriting.
You just have to pound them outand hone your skills, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
So let's bring this back now to our normal, our
normal questions, our regularlyscheduled programming here.
But I am curious you know withgiven, you know how many
different clients you've had,both on the big traditional
publisher side, copy editing,developmental editing, indies,
(17:44):
so forth and so on.
What is the most commonroadblock that you're seeing
from the authors that you workwith?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Do you mean on a craft level, or do you mean on a
motivational or writing careerlevel?
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Why don't we do both?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah don't?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
we do both.
Yeah, let's do both.
So on a craft level, it's funny.
I just did a conference where Ipresented a workshop called the
biggest mistakes writers make,and they they tend to fall into
different categories, Like therewere like nine of them in there
.
But here's a.
Here's a few that jump out atme.
If your characters are notdeeply developed and we don't
see what they stand to gain orlose, we will not invest in your
(18:31):
story, no matter how great yourplot is.
Like, readers don't care what'shappening unless we deeply care
who it's happening to, and thatmeans you've got to give us a
reason to get in that car withthat person who is going to be
our traveling companion for thestory.
So issues of character.
I always say I'm a charactereditor and that's probably the
thing that I see most ishampering story craft-wise.
(18:53):
The other thing I often say andI'll want to talk about it from
the squishier side in a second,but one of the things in that
presentation is what we werejust talking about too much
editing or too little editing.
If you're in a hurry and youhaven't you haven't sufficiently
gotten your story to be thestrongest it can be, you get one
(19:15):
shot with everybody.
You know an agent is going tolook at your.
If they say, yes, send us pages.
They're going to do that onetime, unless they give you, you
know, a revise and resubmit,which is rare.
So you need to make that asperfect as it can be and make
sure you've taken the story asfar as you can.
But also the danger of that isyou start circling the drain and
(19:38):
you never let it go becauseyou're trying to make it
absolutely perfect.
This sounds like an oxymoronand in some ways it is, but when
do you let go of it?
You know it's never gonna bethe thing you really think it
can be and want it to be, andit's also not ready yet if you
haven't done enough work on it.
So there's a sweet spot in themiddle where you just send your
(19:59):
baby bird out of the nest andmove on to the next thing, and
finding that is one of the coreskills for writers, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
And does that change the more experienced a writer
gets?
Like what is that sweet spotfor a new writer versus an
experienced you know,multi-published author?
That's a good question.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
For new writers I see holes, extremes.
Either they'll pop you know Ijust finished my nano first
draft and bam out it's going orthey will work on it for 10
years and have four editors thatthey've hired and 25 beta
readers and they havehomogenized it out of any unique
(20:38):
voice or story or spark itmight once have had.
With more experienced writers,I think they tend to realize you
get it as good as you'recapable of getting it, including
with outside eyes helping pointout.
And you guys said somethingreally valuable a minute ago
that I wanted to go back to, soit's a good point.
Now you said people want aneditor to fix things for them.
(21:01):
That's not what editing is.
That's not what editors do.
They hold up a mirror and theysay here's what I'm seeing on
the page.
Is that your intention?
And if it's not and usually agood editor will be able to see
what your intention is then hereare some ways you could address
that issue.
And it's not prescriptive, it'snot.
You know.
(21:22):
Have a scene where she doesso-and-so.
It's saying the character isnot coming across on the page
here for this specific reason,and we need to know what's
motivating her and how shereacts to what happens in this
scene.
So it's specific in that way,but not prescriptive in telling
someone how to do it.
So I think more experience,let's say authors, learn that
(21:45):
you get it as far as you canwith that and then you just let
it go and know that it's animperfect creation because it's
a subjective field and that'swhat art is.
And then you keep growing as anartist and move on to the next
thing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, you know that's so good and we were talking
about, you know, metaphors forother creative careers.
But, like you, think aboutmusic and if you want perfection
in music, it's a robot, it's.
(22:19):
It's those little imperfectionsthat come through, you know a
singer's voice, that make theirvoice unique.
That people go oh my gosh, Ilove every single thing that.
You know whoever sings, so Ilove that.
And it's because they sounddifferent.
(22:39):
And the reason they sounddifferent is because it's little
imperfections and so you know,you can write the life out of
something.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
A hundred percent.
That's exactly what intuitiveediting means.
You know it's.
Do not try to instill someoneelse's framework on your story.
Every one of us is different,or every story we write is
different.
Every author is different, andyou have to find that, seed,
that thing for each story andthen make it within that the
(23:10):
best you are able to make itwith whatever resources you have
, but you have to make sure itstays yours, like you said.
I don't know imperfections, Iguess, yes, but more like
uniqueness.
You know the thing that makeseach of us who we are, that
makes each story stand out,because none of us are telling
an original story right, they'veall been told.
(23:33):
We're putting the unique spinon it that only we could do.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, maybe imperfections wasn't quite the
right word, but I know whatyou're saying I mean it is
imperfect, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It's the humanity of it, really.
I mean, that is the humanity.
It's because we are human.
We are not perfect.
You cannot have a perfect voice, or, as you said, you'd be a
robot, right?
Speaker 3 (23:57):
To have the perfect tone.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
To have the perfectly clear tone.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You know, know it's gonna have.
It has to be a robot like.
That's why auto-tune sounds sodifferent from a live
performance yeah, right and alsoit's.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
It's such a subjective field in that every
reader is going to bring whatthey bring to it, so what is
perfect to one reader is notperfect to another one.
Yeah, it's a moving target thatdoesn't exist Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Oh yeah, amen to that one.
All you got to do is go andread reviews on your own books
or other, like sometimes I'll.
If I, if I have gotten a badreview, um, I'll go and find a
book by some, a classic, anauthor, that is just like a
household name.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Jane Austen.
I went and looked up Pride andPrejudice once doing this.
Yeah, she has negative reviews.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Yeah, and then you go and you look and you find their
one-star reviews and you'relike, yeah, I'm all right, it
puts it in perspective.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Right, and that's I mean.
You got right to the heart ofit.
You cannot please every reader.
You cannot please every agent.
You cannot make every editorwant your book.
So write the one you want towrite, make it the best you can
make it and then stand behind it.
You know, like that's yourstory.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Well, I think that's a good transition point then
into the mindset or theroadblocks that authors get in,
that sort of motivation andability to maybe move past
negative reviews or other thingsthere.
So what is the roadblock thatyou see on that side of the
creative life?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Mm-hmm, I always call these the demons and I write
about them a lot in my blog.
I think we all, I think everyhuman, has demons, but certainly
as creatives, I think everybodyhas.
Whatever your specific demon isit might be a comparison, or
procrastination, or impostersyndrome, or perfectionism, or
(25:58):
fear of failure or fear ofsuccess or fear of losing
control.
Whatever it is they tend to sortof be with us, the same demons,
forever, and they go like theycyclically come out of their
cave and party in your psyche.
And when artists are people whoidentify so strongly with their
(26:19):
art that when the demons dotheir normal little demon thing
and start kind of attacking ourself-confidence, it undermines
not just our belief in ourwriting, it can undermine our
entire belief in ourselves.
And one of the things I amreally focused on right now in
my work, my teaching and mywriting and presenting is to
(26:40):
help writers regain that senseof agency and autonomy we were
talking about this before therecording started In a career
where often the person with theleast amount of actual control
over a lot of elements is theartist.
And yet you can take the reinsof your own career and create
one that you can sustain happilyfor as long as you choose to
(27:02):
pursue it.
It's an attitude shift, it's amindset shift and taking control
of the things that are withinyour control, and that includes
the demons.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So how would you coach?
So, as you're naming all thosedemons, I'm going yes, yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes, I don't know, Idon't know if there was one.
You said that I've never hadcome and sit down and try to
have a cup of coffee with me.
You know, I've rejected some ofthem.
(27:34):
I'm pretty good at it, andothers of them I take for car
rides periodically, periodicallyso, but like so, how would you
coach a writer to do that to?
You know, get into a?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
healthier mindset, fight their demons.
So I think I always say thefirst step is that you have to
identify and accept them,because what the first thing
most of us do is go first of all.
We hate it.
You know we go.
I hate feeling thisperfectionism or I I hate
feeling lack of self-confidencein myself and so we try to
almost bully ourselves intoovercoming it.
And that is counterproductivebecause it makes us hate
(28:13):
ourselves for hating ourselves,it makes us beat ourselves up
for beating ourselves up andyou're kind of spiraling more
and more.
So first see what's happeningand then just sort of accept
that this is normal when Ifinally because I do, I have
imposter syndrome or have hadlike crazy, and cyclically it
(28:33):
comes back and I always remindmyself I'm never going to not
have imposter syndrome.
It's there but it arose out ofthe child.
Part of me misapprehended thepain that I was caused in
childhood for some reason andsaid here's how we protect
ourselves we must be infallible,we must be perfect, we must
(28:56):
know everything or you are acomplete fraud.
So that's a valid way to try toprotect the psyche.
But it's a child's way and wehave to remember we're the
rational adult.
So you have to kind ofrecognize that this is a part of
you, but it's a normal part ofyou and it's nothing to fight
against or hate.
So I kind of I personify mylittle demons and I picture them
(29:19):
as the little Underwood ham,little red devils, because it
makes them harmless, and I justbefriend them.
And I picture them as thelittle Underwood ham, little red
devils, because it makes themharmless, and I just befriend
them.
And I go.
I see you little perfectionismdemon.
I see you imposter demon.
So what is it you want me toknow?
And then we have to listen toourselves and be kind to
ourselves and figure out what isit we are actually afraid of.
And that just means askingyourself a lot of why?
(29:41):
Questions.
Am I afraid?
Diagnose the problem?
Basically it's editing for yourpsyche.
So is it a problem of the actualmanuscript?
Well, that's fixable, right?
If it's something that's notworking, if it's mid-book sag or
you've lost the thread of theplot or whatever the problem is,
that's a fixable problem.
So take a break and then pushthrough that, because you have
(30:04):
to have faith that you have doneit before and you will do it
again and embrace the suck.
It's going to be bad before itgets better, because that's what
construction looks like.
It's messy, but you know you'lldo it.
You just have to get throughthe yucky part and then you know
you can't spin flax into goldunless you have some flax.
So just vomit up some flax andthen you will fix it later To
(30:29):
mix metaphors.
If it is career related, thenyou assess that.
Are you worried that you'regetting too many rejections?
Well, that's also a diagnosableproblem and you can fix that
problem.
Is it that your editor leftyour pub house and now you're
orphaned?
Okay, that sucks, but this is abusiness full of ups and downs.
You can't control that thing.
The part you can control iswhat you do next.
(30:50):
What are your career goals?
How do you meet those goals andwhat are other avenues for you
to do that?
If it is situational oh, I haveno time to write, I can't get
my head in the right place, I'mdistracted by life those are
also diagnosable, fixableproblems.
The ones that are hard is whenit is the psyche problems, the
(31:10):
demon problems.
So that's when I think we haveto.
There's a Buddhist proverb Ilove about the second arrow, and
it's a hunter is in the.
Basically, I'm mangling it.
But a hunter is in the forest.
He gets struck by someone'sanother hunter's arrow and
instead of pulling it out, hestarts moaning oh, this hurts,
(31:33):
why did this happen to me?
What am I going to do?
And that's the second arrow.
It says so that's where thedemons come in.
I think they're the secondarrow.
So we just have to admit thatthis has happened.
We're feeling this.
What needs to be done toovercome it?
And there are a variety of waysto do that.
I recommend three things.
(31:55):
One is know what your missionstatement is as an artist and
actually write it out.
Know what your why is, whatmade you want to do this and
what your enough is, what's yourdefinition of success, and then
what's your plan to get there.
And that's a step-by-step thing.
If you're struggling in yourstory, know the same thing about
(32:15):
your story.
What is the central storyquestion that you wanted to
address?
That's the guiding light thatkeeps you on track.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That's kind of amazing.
That's maybe the best answerI've heard to that question so
far.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
I'm glad to hear that because it felt like I was off
on the tree branches, becauseit's not a small problem.
I mean it's hard to addressthese things?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
It really is not, but I love that two arrow metaphor,
or, you know, saying I thinkthat's, that's absolutely
brilliant.
And then this is something youknow we talk about all the time
too is that you have tounderstanding your why, creating
a mission statement, knowingwhat you are trying to do, what
you want from your book or yourcareer, depending on what you're
(33:02):
looking at.
You know, setting realistic, um, approachable goals that are
that have achievable outcomes orthat you can actually control
on your own and not relying onthose Um, I I call them, you
know, uh, process goals ratherthan outcome goals.
If you have process goals, youcan achieve that.
If you have outcome goals sorry, but you know we're creative
(33:26):
professionals where the marketis the market.
It's how you can't necessarilysay I'm going to hit the New
York times bestseller on mydebut novel, like that would be
awesome, but that's an outcomegoal that you can't control.
You can control creating thebook to the best of your ability
.
You can't control how it'sactually going to be received.
So I love that.
I think it was such a very like, all encompassing answer to
(33:52):
what is the creative life.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Well, it's kind of like to distill it.
It's to me it sounds like whatyou're really saying is tackle
this proactively, not reactively, yeah.
Yeah, it's a great way to sayit, I think in creative things
it is very common whether it'sacting or music or writing or
(34:18):
art it's very common to createsomething and then sit there and
chew on your fingernails andwait to see if it's received.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah.
So you're basically always inthe mode of will I be chosen?
You're a beggar at the table,exactly, and you are the genesis
of.
I mean, none of it existswithout you, and yet I think we
are all that's a great way toput it we are all in reactive
mode, waiting for that externalvalidation, whereas the secret
to all of this, I think, to beable to sustain a career that's
(34:49):
meaningful to you for as long asit is, is to realize that you
generate all of that and you can, regardless of what those
outcomes are.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Because we've all heard the stories, right.
We've all heard the stories ofthe incredibly famous household
name creatives in any of thoseindustries who were rejected.
Barbara Streisand was told youknow, you can't sing, don't give
up your day job.
And now she's Barbara Streisand, you know what I mean it's like
(35:22):
her voice teacher must befeeling stupid.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
The reality of art is that most of us aren't Barbara
Streisand, and if that's, notokay, then you are setting
yourself up in a career with adream where the odds of you
actually achieving it areminuscule, and so how can you
ever be happy, whereas if youreassess what's driving you to
do this and where you get yoursatisfaction from it?
(35:43):
I have a blog post I've beenworking on called that guy you
saw on that thing that time, andit's basically about because
because I did used to be anactor, I think about all of
these actors.
Like you have your.
You star in a TV show.
I can't think of the actor'sname, but there was a Canadian
show called being Erica, hugehit.
She was in it for I don't knowhow many years as the lead, and
(36:05):
now you see her in these tinylittle supporting roles in other
shows.
That's the business.
If that is not enough for youbecause that's the likelihood of
what your career will be upsand downs Sometimes you're gonna
be a hit, sometimes you're not.
Maybe you're JK Rowling, barbraStreisand, probably you're not
(36:25):
Is it still going to befulfilling for you?
If it's not and you know thatat the outset my God, save
yourself from a lifetime ofheartache.
But if you can accept that youcan't control what's going to
happen as far as the outcome ofyour work, but you can control
your day-to-day doing of it andwhat happens with your career.
(36:46):
As far as those elements thatare within your control, you can
be satisfied for a lifetimewith that and have a meaningful
career doing the thing thatfeeds your soul.
What a privilege that is.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
You know and I do think a lot of that goes back to
what you said somewhere in thisincredibly wise conversation
you said something aboutidentifying, and I think that
that's kind of key, like we arewriters, but we are more than
writers.
Yeah, you know, we, we are.
(37:20):
Whatever we are, we're sisters,we're daughters, we're wives
we're mothers, we're children,we're all things.
We are many things you know andum, and we're human beings.
You know who I believe areintrinsically valuable.
So you, it's like you are many,many things.
(37:43):
Writer is just one of them.
So I don't know, maybe thathelps with the ups and downs.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
It feels like writing is life, but it's really not,
and I love that you say that,because I think that's part of
it too is that we do keep intoperspective that we are not our
writing, we are not ourcreativity.
That is a huge part of who weare.
But there's so much more to ameaningful life and you've got
to find a way to work to fitthat identity and that element
(38:12):
of yourself into all the otherelements of what make your life
fulfilling.
This is all the stuff I'mworking on in this follow-up
book.
You and I the three of us weretalking before about.
I've always focused on the hardcraft skills working on.
In this follow-up book you and Ithe three of us were talking
before about.
I've always focused on the hardcraft skills, and I was working
on another hard craft book tofollow intuitive editing.
But I this is so I hear so manyauthors struggling with exactly
(38:35):
this.
Right now, at a time wherethere is both more opportunity
for authors than there's everbeen and also more competition
and less control and morechallenges than there's ever
been, and also more competitionand less control and more
challenges than there have everbeen how can we operate within
that framework and stillmaintain the satisfaction of our
art, which you know, if youdon't have that?
(38:55):
That's the whole crux ofeverything, as soon as we become
little trained monkeys who arejust churning out product.
That's not why most of us gotinto this.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think that's a really key point is that, and I
think that's the struggle of thecreative career, and it doesn't
matter if it's writing or ifit's music or if it's you know
any number of things.
We are artists, we are creativepeople who put our hearts and
souls on the page, who arecrafting this story, and it's
(39:29):
it's crafting right.
And then we're also, because ofthe modern era, business people
, and we have to.
We have to think professionally, we have to think about the
market.
We have to think about howwe're going to sell things.
What's the cover going to looklike?
We've got to do all these otherthings.
I mean, I think it's more truefor indies than it is maybe for
(39:49):
traditionally published authors,but even the traditionally
published authors, you'rethinking about how are you going
to reach that agent?
Now you have to do your ownmarketing.
So we have to be on socialmedia.
It's a whole, nother differentkind of content creation, and so
we're balancing this drive forart and self-expression with a
(40:12):
drive for financialsustainability for financial
income money right, Because wewant to be paid for our work.
This is work.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And should be, and we should be paid for it.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
This is not just for the common good, I mean, it's
partially, but not just for that.
We need to be compensated forthe work we're putting in for
people and the entertainmentthat we're providing.
And so finding that balancingpoint I think, is right now.
You know it's anothertransition point in the industry
where that balance point keepsshifting, and trying to figure
(40:48):
out each of us individuallywhere that lies is perhaps the
trickiest part of the job, butit's happened with music
industry, it happened with thefilm industry.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Actually, in a lot of ways, I think this is probably
ultimately maybe a good shift inour industry, because it does
put more autonomy, potentially,in authors' hands.
I mean, think about it 20 yearsago, when I started in this
business, 30 years ago, authorsdid not have the options that
they have now.
Imagine, you know, having toload up your books literally in
(41:20):
the trunk of your car and goplaces to sell them.
Imagine having to reach yourreaders through whatever
fanzines or just, you know,hoping that they saw you at a
local event.
Now we have ways to reach outto them.
We have blogs, newsletters,substack.
We can sell our own books.
We can, whatever it is, even ifwe're going to have a
(41:44):
traditional path.
We have all these options forraising our own profile, for
supporting the marketing staffin-house.
And I agree with you, megan.
I think that traditionalpublishing still requires not
quite the same things as indieauthors, but a lot of the same
things and certainly as mucheffort as you would have to put
in as an indie author.
You just have certain parts ofit taken out of your hands.
(42:05):
So that's all opportunity.
It's all also challenge, andevery author is different.
You know, not all of us haveboth the artistic and the
business mindset, and that is ahard thing.
So you do, I agree with you,megan.
I think you do have to findwhat's the balance that works
for you.
Like, if you want to make sixthis is what kills me is the
(42:25):
dream that's always peddled toauthors at some conferences or
presentations, where it's like Imake six figures you know, in
my pajamas, and you can too Wellsure you can.
Here's what that entailspajamas, and you can too Well
sure you can.
Here's what that entails.
And you have to decide do youwant to do those things?
(42:47):
Also, I remember I can'tremember which author it was,
but she was at a conference andshe was very successful in
depublished, and someone said toher well, how do you find time
for your own pursuits and spendtime with your family and all
that?
And she said well, they allunderstand that right now
there's no time for that.
That'll come later in my life.
And I just thought, okay, I getthat.
That is what it takes to dowhat she's doing.
Is that actually worth it foryou?
(43:08):
Which is what I mean by knowyour why and know you're enough.
Is that what success looks likefor you, or would you rather
work maybe some other job thatgets you the financial stability
you need and have much morefreedom creatively?
It's your call to make.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, and the timing of that, I think, is also your
call to make, because, goingback to being patient or not,
depending on your lifestyle, Imean, like I started writing my
what became my first publishednovel.
I'd been writing for years, butthis was became my first
published novel with a newbornat home, right.
(43:47):
So my priority was my kids andhas been, you know, up up till
now.
So that was you know she's.
She's 12 now, my oldest.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
I did my job.
She's on her own you know she's.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
She's 12 now my oldest.
I did my job.
She's on her own, so she's done.
No, no, but.
But you know, now they're inschool, they've got activities,
the lifestyle is a little bitdifferent, things are starting
to open up a little bit more andI can see on the horizon you
know, that future and it's like,yeah, okay.
So for the first, you know 18years of my what I'll call my
professional writing life.
(44:20):
You know 18 years of my whatI'll call my professional
writing life.
I'm not going to be full-timeauthoring.
I'm not going to be staying uptill three in the morning to
write, because I can't functionthat way and that's how I am.
But there are other authors whomaybe don't have kids at home,
or they have a differentlifestyle that allows them to be
, you know, night owls, or theyhave other things right.
They can dedicate more to this,this professional career, than
(44:46):
what I want to do.
But you can time it.
So maybe in the future they dohave kids and then they have to
back off a little and you knowit shifts, it changes.
So you have to kind of look atthe the hills and valleys of
your own life in order to figureout what is actually going to
be sustainable and what you wantfrom your life and your career.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I think those are two of the most important
considerations that you justsaid.
What is sustainable and what doyou actually want and know what
that entails Like I think we gointo this with these blind
dreams of the goal that we wantwithout.
I mean, you said you have to bea business person to some
degree, so you are entering awriting business.
What do your goals actuallyentail and do those actually
(45:30):
look like what you had in mindwhen you said you wanted to be a
full-time writer?
Or were you picturing being upin your attic and being creative
all day long and not realizing?
Oh wait, there's a whole bunchof stuff that goes with it too.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
And that's none of that.
There's no right or wrong path.
It's for every author todetermine what's right for them.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, but I but I do think reality facing the reality
is what's key.
It sounds like your book isgoing to be taking people
through that and I feel likeMegan and I.
Part of the reason we startedthis podcast was to help writers
, because we used to run anorganization called OC Writers
(46:06):
and it was like a local writinggroup going all these coffee
shop meetings and all thesemeetings at smaller conferences
or writers guilds and groups,you just meet so many people who
have an unrealisticunderstanding of what the
business is.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
You know, I've had so many MFA graduates tell me that
they never addressed that, evenin their MFA program, and that
is a huge part of building a.
It is a central part ofbuilding a writing career.
It's not just the writing, anymore than you know.
If you want to make a widget,it's not just about making the
widget, it's the infrastructure.
(46:45):
And that's the part I think wehave to figure out what we want
and be very deliberate aboutdeveloping.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
That's where your autonomy comes from.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
I actually have a book and I don't remember the
author's name, but I have a bookabout that this guy who went
through the whole MFA program hewas a screenplay writer and
came out the other side and thenit was gobsmacked Like wait a
minute, you know, because hesaid, if you think about it, an
MFA program is like.
It's like summer camp forcreatives and everybody's going
(47:16):
to tell you you're amazing andeverything's wonderful and
you're all delving into thethemes and all this and you get
out and you're like themes, wedon't care about themes.
How many naked women are inyour movie?
You know what's going to makeitself yeah exactly and he was
like oh my gosh.
You know, nobody prepares us forthe reality of these businesses
(47:36):
.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
You know, and and they're so completely mercurial.
You know like you may be theMFA who gets the big publishing
contract on your New York Timesdarling, and maybe you're not.
Maybe you're the one that theygo this is beautiful, but we
can't sell it next.
You know, like we can't controlany of that.
So, what makes it worthwhile toyou.
As long as we keep coming backto that, I think that's where we
(48:00):
can maintain our sense ofequanimity and control and joy.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So joy, yes joy, I love that word.
So when you have your new bookpublished, did we even say the
title.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
I don't think so.
The Intuitive Author.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Yeah, it's the Intuitive Author how to grow and
sustain a happier writingcareer, which I just again.
I love that title, I think.
I don't know.
I'm all about intuition, Iguess.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Yeah, well, of course we are right.
We're right brain, left brainpeople.
A lot of us are more rightbrain and I do think that it's
there's so much focus especiallyI mean it grew out of the
editing thing because there's somuch approach to editing as if
it were this mechanical,technical process and it isn't
just that right Like, it isstill a creative process and
it's kind of the same increating the career you are
(48:53):
creating a creative career.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
So of course there's intuition and creativity that
goes into it.
Yeah, yeah.
So when that book comes out, weobviously are going to have to
have you back on, because thishas been just.
I mean, I do feel like we'reall preaching to the choir here,
talking to each other, but I dothink that our listeners are
going to love this one becauseit's just so broad.
You know it's just so broad.
There is so much the writingcraft I mean is so important.
(49:21):
Much the writing craft I mean isso important because you might
as we've been saying, we're kindof doing quick tips episodes on
writing craft this month youmight be able to market a really
crappy book and sell somecopies, but your chances of
selling some more books afterthat are pretty slim.
If you do so, you know you'reshooting yourself in the foot.
So it is the place we all startis learning to write a passable
(49:44):
book, you know, a book thatchecks the boxes for at least
some people, and you knowgetting that done.
And but in order to do it'ssort of the witch came first the
chicken or the egg, because inorder to do that, I think you
have to do also what you'retalking about in your new book,
which is what kind of career doyou want?
You know, because even withthat, I mean, there are a lot of
(50:08):
writers who've made a lot ofmoney writing a book a month and
I'm sure that they are decentcraftsmen or they would not be
able to sell all those books,but they're also not.
They don't have the luxury oftaking the time to really polish
and hone and sculpt that storyeither, and maybe they're okay
(50:29):
with that.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
That's the thing.
If they're great at that, greatgood for you.
But somebody else would not beRight, and stuff like that can
be held up as the school proof.
One size fits all model if youjust work hard enough.
But that's not right for everyauthor, because it requires
things of you that may not bewhat your goals were when you
got into this as a career.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
And you may, and you just may not have their skill
set either you know right, oh,that's a great point.
It's like my mind.
I get like a third of the wayinto a book and every plot idea
I thought was going to happenjust crashes and burns and I go
no, this is the stupidest bookanybody has ever decided to
write.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
That's the demons, that's the demons coming in
right there.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Work it all out again , and then I get about two
thirds through the book and I doit again.
Work it all out again, and thenI get about two thirds through
the book and I do it again.
Oh wow, this is just so lame, Ihave to do it again.
So everybody has their process.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
That's just mine, what you just said, all the
things that creatives arebalancing.
You're balancing the craft,you're balancing the inner
demons, you're balancing whatthe career demands.
You're balancing the rest ofyour life.
That's a lot of balls in theair, yeah, yeah.
And I think we think of it somuch as the writing part and we
don't take into account how manyother things writers are also
(51:51):
grappling with and need thetools to deal with.
So, before I ask you to tellpeople where they can, find out
more about you and your books.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I have a new career idea for you, tiffany.
Lay it on me.
I ask you to tell people wherethey can find out more about you
and your books.
I have a new career idea foryou.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Tiffany.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Lay it on me I think you should become a writer.
Therapist.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
And then we can all call you and for 60 bucks an
hour we can go to Tiffany.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
I'm so upset?
No, it's a new podcast.
You're going to be like thewriter therapist online to call
in.
It's a call in show the dearTiffany.
I love this.
People present their problemsand you, you help them work it
through.
I love it.
So now you have your podcastidea and I'll be your first.
(52:36):
I will be your first.
It will be your first, oh mygosh.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yes, tiffany, this was so good and honestly, I do
think I'm not sure I can affordyou for editing, but, like for
therapy, I totally need you.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
I loved this conversation.
I love that word, that you guysare talking about it on your
podcast.
As much as it's difficult tosee, so many authors are
struggling with this right nowin the current challenging
environment.
I love hearing them talk aboutit because that's the way we all
find our way through it.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, that is beautiful.
That's so good.
So tell people where they,because they are going to run
and not walk.
Tell people where they can findout more about you and your
books and your website and allthe things you have to offer.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Probably the easiest way is just to go to the website
that's foxprinteditorialcom Fox, like the little animal, my
little totem animal, and that'swhere you'll find I do a weekly
blog that is full of craft tipsand also a lot of the stuff that
you, that we've all beentalking about here the the
squishier side I call it thecareer stuff and then I also
(53:46):
have online courses.
I have a ton of free resources,including free downloadables on
hiring an editor, what to lookfor, what it should cost, how to
vet them.
I have a large checklist ofself-editing checklist that will
help you when you're gettingyour manuscript as strong as you
can get it.
I've got a beta reader template.
There's a ton of free stuff onthere.
(54:07):
So, best Place Box PrintEditorial you can find my book
Intuitive Editing there, and thenew one will also be announced
there as soon as I have aproduction date for it.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Now, that's great.
I am going to your website whenwe get off this call.
So, yeah, all the good things.
So, listeners, I hope you gotas much out of this as me and
Megan did, because we sure did.
And I just wanted to give you aquick reminder, because every
single person we talk to thismonth, this topic gets brought
(54:39):
up.
If you are struggling throughunderstanding your brand and
your author promise and what onearth you're trying to do, we do
have a free seven-day course onour website, authorwheelcom.
That's called Seven Days toClarity Uncover your Author
Purpose, and we walk you throughsome of these things, including
(55:01):
how to come up with an authormission statement and tagline.
So you can run over toauthorwheelcom and find that
there.
And also, if you enjoyed thisepisode, we surely would wish
you'd consider sponsoring us foras little as $3 a month.
It helps us keep the lights onand keep this podcast rolling
(55:25):
and also, if you do, we willgive you a sponsor shout out and
we'll tell the world about yourbooks or your author service,
whatever it is you want us totell people about.
So again, that link, all thelinks to all the wonderful
things we talked about are inthe show notes and until next
time, keep your stories rolling.
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