Navigating the publishing world with Pamela Fagan Hutchins

Should you self-narrate your own book? Should an indie take a traditional deal?

This week, mystery author and podcast host, Pamela Fagan Hutchins, is taking us on a journey into her writing world. We talk about the art of narrating your own audiobooks and how to manage continuity across multiple book series. Plus, hear first-hand why she's a dedicated indie who's just secured a traditional publishing contract—and the challenges that came along with it.

Pamela Fagan Hutchins is a USA Today bestselling and Silver Falchion Best Mystery winning mystery/thriller/suspense author (and recovering attorney and investigator) who splits time between an off-the-grid lodge on the face of Wyoming's Bighorn Mountains and a rustic cabin on Maine’s Lake Mooselookmeguntic with her husband, kids and grandkids, rescue pets and sled dogs, and draft cross horses. 

Follow Us!

Pamela Fagan Hutchins
Website: http://pamelafaganhutchins.com
Facebook: http://facebook.com/pamela.fagan.hutchins.author
Podcast: Crime & Wine Novelist Chats https://pamelafaganhutchins.com/crime-and-wine-with-pamela-fagan-hutchins/

The Author Wheel:
Website: www.AuthorWheel.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AuthorWheel

Greta Boris:
Website: www.GretaBoris.com
Facebook: @GretaBorisAuthor
Instagram: @GretaBoris

Megan Haskell:
Website: www.MeganHaskell.com
Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor

Support the show

FREE Mini Email Course

Have you ever struggled to explain to others exactly what you write? Or wondered which of the many fiction ideas running through your brain you should tackle? If so, The Author Wheel’s new mini-course might be your solution.

7 Days to Clarity: Uncover Your Author Purpose will help you uncover your core writing motivations, avoid shiny-thing syndrome, and create clear marketing language.

Each daily email will lead you step by step in defining your author brand, crafting a mission statement, and distilling that statement into a pithy tagline. And, best of all, it’s free.

Click here to learn more!

Episode Transcript

Greta (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery Thriller
Author.

Megan (00:08):
And I'm Megan Haskell, award-winning fantasy adventure
author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Today we have prolific mysteryauthor and host of the Crime and
Wine podcast, Pamela FaganHutchins, joining us.
It's a really, really funconversation and we talk about
everything from narrating yourown audio books to building an

(00:31):
interconnected world for yourbooks, to what it takes to
become a hybrid author and whyyou should even want to.
But before we get into that,Greta, what's been going on?

Greta (00:43):
Well, let's see Today.
Actually, it was last week, butthen it kind of fleshed out
even more today.
Isn't that like suspense I'mbuilding?
I didn't even tell you what itis yet.

Megan (00:54):
Anyway.

Greta (00:54):
I have this aha moment about the book I'm writing.
I went for a long walk with anauthor friend and I have found
that is so helpful when you'refeeling stuck, to, kind of if
you have somebody in your lifethat will put up with you, like
just talking through your plotpoints and giving you ideas and

(01:15):
what makes sense to somebodyelse.
And it's interesting because wedo talk about this a little bit
with Pamela in this interviewabout one of the things that was
a real help in her authorcareer was writer buddies and
their feedback and their help.
So, just as a little thoughtfor people out there, this can

(01:35):
be really helpful when you'refeeling stuck on a book.
Sometimes go for a walk andtalk it out with someone.
And then the other interestingthing in my life what
interesting to me anyway is thatI'm doing some Halloween
promotions.
My books are a little on thescary side.
They got that paranormal thinggoing on.
So I put my lead magnet in BookFunnel, which we are gonna be

(01:59):
talking to Damon Courtney fromBook Funnel coming up on the
podcast in a week or two.
So that's exciting.
You'll learn more about that,but I have it in there and it's
already accruing new subscribersfor my mailing list, so that's
exciting.
And then I've also been tryingto be very creative with some

(02:20):
new Facebook ads, so I'll belaunching those, hopefully today
or tomorrow.
Oh also, I was just gonnamention that my Book Funnel
promo.
For anybody who is interestedin seeing like maybe you've
never done one, you wanna seewhat they look like I will put
the link for it in the otherwheel Facebook page so you guys

(02:42):
can check that out and maybe oneof those creepy books will peak
your interest.

Megan (02:48):
Oh, that's a good idea.
I'm actually in a Halloweenpromo as well, so we'll post my
link too, and of course mine isfantasy focused, so fantasy and
then Halloween spooky themed.
But yeah, we'll do that.

Greta (03:05):
That's a great idea, and the one I'm in is obviously
Mystery Thriller, but Halloweenfocused spooky theme.
So, other than your Book Funnelprogram I mean Book Funnel
promo what are you up to thesedays?

Megan (03:19):
So I've officially started drafting the Aether Book
3 this week.
I don't have the official titleyet.
It'll be Aether or something.
I think I've mentioned that.
But anyway, aether 3 for now,and to do it because I've been
so busy in other aspects of mylife.

(03:39):
I've actually been trying to dothe whole morning routine thing.
Good for you, oh yeah, we'llsee.
No, it's actually workingreally, really well, though.
So I wake up about a half anhour earlier than I used to.
So I wake up at about 6.15 eachmorning and then I go straight

(04:00):
to my desk.
No coffee, I mean.
I put on my bathrobe and stuff.
So I'm at least a little bitwarm.
But otherwise there's no breaks, no stops, no distractions.
Straight to my computer, sitdown and start writing, and then
I stop at 7 when I have to wakeup my kids for school and get
them ready and stuff like that.
But it's been super helpful.

(04:24):
I'm slow, I'm gonna be honest,like I'm slower than I would be
if I were to be writing later inthe day or if you had some
coffee.

Greta (04:32):
That the whole no coffee thing is really a stumbling
block for me in this one.
I'm like really trying to getbehind you on this, but I don't
know why I find it so disturbing.
But anyway, go ahead.

Megan (04:44):
Yeah, you know, and that's a little interesting too,
but if I went to go get coffee,I have to go downstairs, I have
to make the coffee because Idon't have a coffee maker with a
timer.
I'm snooty with my coffee and Ido the pour over thing, so
anyhow.
But yeah, it's so I'm slowerthan I would have been or would

(05:05):
otherwise be, but it's makingprogress.
I'm getting words on the page.
So yesterday and today I gotright around 500 words between
the time I wake up 6.15, sowhenever I actually sit down at
my desk and 7 am when I wake upthe kids.
So it's something.
You know, it's forward progress.
And then I'm more likely toactually do another writing

(05:28):
session later in the day.
So it's good.
Next week I might take it a stepfurther.
Actually, even tomorrow I mighttake it a step further shut
down everything on my computerthe night before, accept
Scrivener and leave that open towhere I'm at in the book so
that I have even fewer potentialdistractions along the way.

(05:48):
And then, if I'm feeling goodon the sleep and not getting
cranky cause that's always myAchilles heel is waking up too
early and then ending up crankythen I might bump it a little
earlier next week to 6 am andsee how, see if I can get a
little bit more, but we'll see.
It's all an experiment rightnow, but it's writing every day.

(06:10):
You know, three days in a rowso far.
I'm checking off my littleboxes and making the chain.
So there you go.
I love that.
Yeah, the other thing I didwanna talk about briefly, and I
think we mentioned this lastweek a little bit, but now we
have the link.
So we are prepping for theWrite Anyway, summits hosted by

(06:32):
Pages and Platforms and SueCampbell, and we're gonna be
presenting a new mini course whyyou need an author and mission
statement.
So for you listeners out there,if you haven't given our seven
days to clarity, uncovering yourauthor purpose, which I think

(06:52):
is what we've titled it.

Greta (06:53):
Did I say that, perfectly , did I.
That's the title, yeah.

Megan (06:57):
Awesome.
But if you haven't taken thatyet, this is kind of a little
introduction into why it'simportant and sort of what the
general process is in aapproximately half an hour
little mini course presentation.
So we're doing that, but thesummit itself has over 25
speakers and presenters.

(07:17):
It's also free.
Well, free if you attend live,so you can register for it using
the link I'll put in the shownotes.
But then you can also purchasethe All Access Pass, which gives
you access to the recordings aswell as a bunch of extras from
the present presenters, likedifferent tools and worksheets.
We put in a worksheet for theseven steps as well, so that

(07:43):
link will be in the show notes.
Full disclosure.
We are affiliates of theprogram, but obviously we are
presenters in the program aswell.
So we do.
You know we only promote thingsthat we actually believe in.
But if you do choose topurchase the All Access Pass, we
will earn a commission on yourpurchase.

(08:03):
So if you want to support theshow, that's actually a great
way to do it and get somefantastic resources while you're
at it.

Greta (08:12):
Yes, go for it.
I think it is gonna be reallyamazing.
I'm looking forward to itmyself.

Megan (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, me too.
All right, well, that's it fornow.
So let's get on with the show.
And here's Pamela.

Greta (08:25):
So today we wanna welcome Pamela Fagan Hutchins.
She is the USA TodayBestselling and Silver Falshian
Best Mystery Winning MysteryThriller Suspense Author and
Recovering Attorney andInvestigator.
She splits her time between anoff the grid lodge on the face
of Wyoming's Big Horn Mountainsand a rustic cabin on Maine's

(08:49):
Lake Moose Look Magoonic.
I'm gonna have to get her tohelp me with Moose Look Magoonic
, with her husband I canpronounce husband Kids and
grandkids, rescue pets and sleddogs and draft cross horses.
She is also the host of Crimeand Wine podcast and she writes

(09:13):
both independently and for booka tour.
So welcome, pamela.
We are so excited to talk toyou.
We've already, like, discussedall the things we're gonna talk
about on this podcast.

Pamela (09:26):
Thanks, I'm so excited to be here.

Megan (09:28):
Well.
So I have to ask how do youactually pronounce that?

Pamela (09:33):
But the Moose thing, the Moose look, moose look
magoonic.
Moose, we all just call itMoose, look for short Okay.

Greta (09:42):
I can say Moose look, moose look magoonic, or Moose
look.
So, pamela, why don't you startjust by giving our listeners a
little bit of a better pictureof who you are and how you got
to be the amazing Pamela FaganHutchins that you are today?

Pamela (10:00):
Well, my editor calls me Pamela freaking Hutchins, but
she doesn't say freaking.
So you know there's a themehere.
I'm a little bit of a hardcharger, kind of intense
energizer bunny type and I'mreally into reading, writing and
adventure.
You know, whether it's like youwere talking about in my intro,

(10:21):
whether it's the sled dogactivities or, you know, trail
riding in the mountains, we'rereally into that kind of thing
and I end up writing the kindsof books that I enjoy reading
and that are reflective of thekind of adventure and lifestyle
that I love.
So I write about the places Ilove, I write about murders and

(10:42):
I write about people that areeither forced to solve them by
their job or because life throwsthose things at them and they
can't avoid it.
And I throw in all of thatcrazy adventure, fun, fast
lifestyle.
So that is kind of a blending.
You know my life, my writing,they end up kind of feeling
seamlessly connected.

Greta (11:05):
Not the murder part, I hope.

Pamela (11:06):
Not the murder part.
Not the murder part.

Megan (11:09):
I have to imagine murder is pretty rare in Mooth Look.

Pamela (11:15):
You know it is, but it's a spooky place.
I mean Stephen King, maine, youknow it's.
You could hide some bodiesthere.

Greta (11:23):
Yeah, oh.
Whenever you got a lake, it'sjust rife with possibilities for
burying bodies, you know.

Pamela (11:31):
And we say that murder is as simple as shovel shoot
shovel and shut up.
You know there's lots of places, just dug a body.
So the great, the great, wideopen.

Greta (11:43):
I love it.

Megan (11:45):
So tell us so before we get into it.
Like we've got some things wewant to talk about.
First of all, this.
This episode might run long.
I'm a little worried, but wehave so many things to talk
about.
But first, what has been sortof the biggest roadblock as you
were getting started writing?
This is the question we ask allour guests when you were first

(12:06):
getting started writing, beforeyou know, before you you know,
finish your first book, publishyour first book, or within the
first series, what has been thebiggest roadblock to finding
success as you define it?

Pamela (12:20):
I think for me it was pre publication and it was
overcoming lack of knowledge,lack of confidence and lack of
and when I say lack of knowledgeI mean everything from knowing
what I wanted to write but notknowing how to deliver it and

(12:41):
not knowing when it was goodenough, and then lack of
knowledge on how to pursue awriting career.
So those really got in my wayfor a while.
Now I was super lucky becausethe first novel I published took
off, and so you know, I kind ofwas sitting there thinking, wow
, this turned out to be easierthan I thought it would, of
course, than three novels later.
One tanks and you're like, waita second, maybe I don't know

(13:04):
what I'm doing after all, butfor me the big, the big
difficulty was in confidenceupfront and confidence and
direction in what to do and howto do it.

Megan (13:16):
So so what did you do to overcome that?
How did you find yourconfidence?

Pamela (13:21):
I turned to people who were better than me, and in fact
, I would recommend that mosthighly for everyone to
constantly be working your wayup the food chain of authors to
someone who writes better thanyou, who's published more than
you, who knows how to do morethan you, and think about what
you can do to help that person,to make them want to, in turn,

(13:43):
do something nice for you.
I became friends with authorsthat were able to point out what
was wrong with what I waswriting and once they told me it
was clear as day, but you don'tsee it in your own work and who
are able to give me some careerguidance.
So, but real, authenticrelationships do want to others
first, right, not, as I'm sureit's a lot of people's pet peeve

(14:07):
as authors people that'll writeto you and they don't even say
hello first.
They just get to what they wantyou to do for them.
You know, when it's like, nopart of that made me want to
help you, but the people thatyou want to help are the ones
that are helping other people,and so be that person that helps
other people, and then maybeyou'll get lucky like me, and
have people that are better thanyou and more experienced than

(14:29):
you, give you some tips.

Megan (14:31):
Yeah, it's so hard, though.
I mean I well, first of all,there's the phrase you are the
average of the five people yousurround yourself with, or
something like that.
I don't know who said it orwhere it came from, but I've
heard it a bunch and I've saidit a bunch, so we're going to go
with it.
But.
But I think that's very true.
But it's also so hard sometimesto kind of get over that ego.

(14:54):
If you will or be willing toput yourself out there for
critique and not take itpersonally in the sense that you
take it so that you can improve, but not take it personally in
the sense that you feeloverwhelmed or you feel
discouraged or you feel likepeople are beating up on you
because you need critique, butat the same time it's, it can be

(15:15):
a thing.

Pamela (15:16):
You know when, when I was running the Houston Writers
Guild, I ran a lot of critiquecircles and, by the way, if you
hear snoring in the background,that's my Boston Terrier.
There's no way I can stop him.
We've tried, I've done ahundred of my own podcasts and
he's become the background musicof our, of our show.
But when I was first trying toreally work with people on
accepting critique and evenworking first getting myself to,

(15:38):
there's a place in your writingwhere all you can really stand
is encouragement right, you'rereally, really needing
encouragement.
When you get to the place whereyou're like thirsting for
someone to tell you what iswrong, then you really know that
you're at the point whereyou're.
You're ready for something withmore rigor.
And whether you find yourself awriting group or critique group
or whatever, as long as it'sone where people can be

(16:01):
respectful of each other andfollow rules, right.
And you know, I believe in twothirds positive, one third
negative and telling your truthin the kindest way possible, but
not skimping on the truth,because I think the worst thing
you can do for another writerwho is ready and willing and
open to feedback is to withholdthe truth from them, at least
your one person's opinion of it.

(16:22):
Right, you know you, I alwaystell people and I give them
critique.
I am one reader, you know youdon't like what I have to say,
go find another.
They're going to be otheropinions.
I am one human.
But when you're thirsting forit, when you realize I no longer
want someone to treat me likemy mom, would I want the cold,
hard, brutal truth then get outthere and find just somebody

(16:44):
that can give you that one otherreader's opinion that might
make the difference in whetherwhat you're writing is something
that's going to stay under yourbed or be read by.
You know, thousands, hundredsof thousands of people.

Greta (16:58):
That's really really good advice.
I know what you said too, abouthow there is a phase where what
you need is encouragement.
It's really interesting.
I never thought of it that waybefore, but it's true, because I
remember in the very, veryearly days, you know, and I was
in a couple of critique groupsthat were not the best for me,

(17:21):
or I'd give stuff I wrote tofamily members, which is really
stupid.

Megan (17:28):
Unless they're certified editors, in which case it can be
helpful.

Greta (17:31):
Well, that's true.
Well, my dad was an editor anda publisher and in the beginning
he was encouraging.
Now he's not.
I guess he figures I'mpublished, I can take it.
But yeah, it's like it wassoul-crushing.
It made you want to stop in thevery, very beginning.
But I remember that transitionand I had gotten into the

(17:52):
critique group that I'm in tothis day with a lot of published
authors, and I rememberDesmanne, who's a very good
friend of mine.
Now I read something I wroteand he goes, yeah, that joke.
At the end it wasn't funny andI realized it didn't hurt my
feelings.
I realized as soon as he saidit it's like, oh yeah, it wasn't
it does make sense it's amovement, yeah, yeah.

Megan (18:17):
And I was going to say too I think I've never thought
of it that way.
First of all, looking back atmy own path, that was the
turning point for me as well.
I mean, I faced all the samething, those same confidence
issues, right, did the samething as Greta.
I sent it out to friends who Ithought at least had an English

(18:38):
degree from college she's not alawyer, but she had an English
degree, right.
So I sent it out to people toread for critique, that first
novel, which is completelyunpublishable and will never be
published, and this is sittingin a drawer.
But it was incrediblychallenging and mildly

(18:58):
discouraging to get thatfeedback.
But then the next book.
When that one was ready, I wasgoing OK, I need an editor to
look at this, I needprofessional critique, someone
professional who knows whatthey're talking about, who's
published books, who is actuallyin the industry, to come and
tell me if this is good enough,because I think it is, but I'm
not sure.
And at that point that was thebook that became my debut novel.

(19:23):
So you're right, there is thatinflection point where you go
from just learning and learningand learning and you just need
to be motivated to OK, now thisis a real thing.

Pamela (19:37):
Yeah, for a lot of people that write, they've never
made it to the end of a novelbefore and they just need to
keep going and have theexcitement and confidence to get
back in the chair and put theirfingers on the keys or their
hands on a pen and do it.
And if you tell them too muchnegative at that point maybe it

(19:58):
all stops for them.
But once you've written one andgotten to the end, written
maybe two, and you're startingto realize something in gelling
here, my instincts tell me thatit isn't as good as my mom says
it is Right.
Or my rejection slips aretelling me it's not as good as

(20:18):
my mom wanted me to think.

Greta (20:21):
Yeah, that is very, very true and that is a you know, we
teach that in one of the coursesthat we teach is about the four
levels of mastery, and thefirst level is like you're so
ignorant, isn't the right word.
Do you remember the right word,Megan?
It's incompetent.

(20:43):
You're so incompetent that youhave no idea that you're
incompetent.
That's the first phase and it'skind of a happy phase because
you usually think you're amazingbecause you don't even know.
And then you reach this nextlevel where it's like conscious
incompetence and it's verypainful, but that's where you
see the growth when you realize,oh, my taste, what I love to

(21:05):
read, and my taste in literarywork, I can't replicate it.
I don't know how to replicateit.

Megan (21:13):
And then.

Greta (21:14):
But that's where you really start to grow.
But the first phase, that sortof a happy phase where you're
unconsciously incompetent, youknow, sometimes you just got to
let people get through that Yep,and a nice little happy bubble.
So that's fabulous advice.
So, speaking of trying newthings and challenging new
things, I the way I found you.

(21:35):
I found you was because I am abig CJ Box fan and a big
Longmire fan and I was lookingfor something like that and I
saw a.
A chirp sent me a deal on yourfirst Patrick Flynn novel and it
was an audiobooks and prettymuch just digest audio books
these days Because if I sit downI feel like I have to be

(21:58):
writing.
But I bought it.
And skeptically because Inoticed that the author had had
narrated it and it was fabulousand I loved it and I have since
bought both of the box sets the.
Patrick Flynn box sets.
I've listened to the first boxset but I haven't got to the

(22:19):
second box set yet, but I lovethem and your narration is is
spot on.
It's really great.
So how, how did you get thecourage to tackle that?
How did you learn how to do it?
Because most authors don'tnarrate their own books and most
authors should not narratetheir own books.

Pamela (22:38):
Oh, do I agree with, with everything that mouthful
you just said.
So I had had hired narratorsroyalty share.
I threw ACX back in the day formy first oh, one, two, three,
four, five, six, seven, eight,nine, 10, 11, 12, 12 books and

(23:00):
no 17.
I had some nonfiction.
So for my first 17 books Iworked with all these narrators
and I first of all you know justsurge of overconfidence thought
I can perform them, and part ofthat was because I am somebody
who is very comfortable as aspeaker or on stage and so I

(23:20):
felt like, okay, I can do this.
You know I was.
I actually competed in theycalled it what did they call it?
When I was in debate in highschool, but I read stories.
I competed, reading storiesallowed, so whatever.
Then whatever, I think theycalled it prose, a dumb name.
But you are reading prose and,and for me the hurdle was I
don't know what equipment to buy.

(23:41):
I don't know how to set up asound studio.
I don't know how to Engineer it.
You know how to get those allthe specifications right.
And I decided with my Maggiekilling in series that I would
do it, and I made all themistakes.
I mean, I literally Recorded awhole book, only for it not to
work, and cried and cried andcried and then I decided, okay,

(24:03):
I'm going to do it again, eventhough this is the most
demoralizing, you know,time-wasting experience of my
life.
And so I did and I got it rightand I Discovered that they did
sound good, that the, you know,once you got past the skeptics
which I totally get I prettymuch don't listen to author-read

(24:26):
Narrated books but once I gotpast people skepticism, that you
know, I could deliver it and IDiscovered I could make money,
especially because these wereindie books.
I went and published them onchirp, where you can Offer deals
on your book, where you canapply for and get deals with

(24:46):
bookbub, where they do bookbubchirp deals on your book.
And I've made a lot of moneywith these, these self-narrated
audiobooks.
And If you're not a performer,if you're not Technically adept,
if you're not willing to trynew things or if you actually
should be spending your timewriting, then you should not

(25:08):
narrate audiobooks right.
And and in fact I haven'tnarrated my last few, even one
of my Patrick Flint's I gaveover to a professional narrator
At the, my seventh one, becauseI took up an additional book
contract and I just all of asudden was overwhelmed.
But when I had the time, it wasa great way to do a final
proofread.

(25:29):
You know, I would record theseaudiobooks before I published
them and I used it as my finalproofread and I was still able
to make whatever changes Iwanted, to just hit pause on
recording and, you know, turn toyour laptop and say that didn't
work for me.
Whatever, it is that whenyou're reading it feels weird
and I found it to be a wonderfulpart of the process and I'm not

(25:51):
averse to the idea of goingback to it again.

Megan (25:55):
That's great.
That's actually a technique Iuse sometimes for the editing
process, right as part of thekind of final proofing.
I don't usually read the entirebook, but I'll definitely read
chapters that I'm worried aboutor sections that I'm worried
about, but to kind of double upand multitask, that's kind of
brilliant, like I'm intrigued.

Pamela (26:18):
It really works, and I had never Taken the time not
since my first or second book toread the book aloud, even
though I know it's a greatproofreading technique, you know
.
And yet I did it and I it wasjust golden on, I'm catching
those last few errors more thanmy proofreaders were catching,
because I would send it to apaid Copy editor, then I would

(26:41):
send it to a team ofproofreaders and then I would
record the audiobook and thenI'd keep catching the errors.
So it really was Super useful.
Multitasking.

Greta (26:51):
Mm-hmm, it's crazy that whole process of editing and how
, how many drafts and, and thenthere's.
But if you think about it, likesay, your book is seventy five
thousand words, that's seventyfive thousand potential errors.
I guess it does make sense thatyou know, but it is kind of
crazy.
Well, I think that's brilliant.

(27:12):
Megan is Reading her bookschapter by chapter on YouTube
right now, so I think she'sbeing very brave too.

Megan (27:19):
I am well and it's.
It's an interesting processbecause and this is kind of what
has me, you know, intriguedabout your system here too and
kind of your feedback on thisbecause I Don't feel like I have
the quality of a professionalnarrator I am not a voice
actress, right, but I'm gettingpractice Reading chapter by

(27:41):
chapter and putting it up thereon on YouTube, and so I'm kind
of I have been sort of Thinkingabout or percolating on the idea
of trying to then convert thoseover to Audio books, but I
don't know if that wouldactually work because, again, I
don't know the technicalrequirements of the audiobooks,
even though I've had audiobooksproduced.

(28:02):
I've always looked the engineeror the producer to.
You know, the, the narratorhandle all that stuff.
So I don't actually know thespecifications, but it's kind of
an interesting Idea to thinkabout as far as, like, if you're
gonna do it, if you're gonnaread the book anyway, why not
try and see if it works?

Pamela (28:20):
I actually ended up being a Overpaid narrator for
other people's books for a whileas a side hustle, because I
thought it was fun.
And then I realized I was justprocrastinating from writing my
own books, so I gave up on that.

Greta (28:37):
Okay, now I'm gonna segue here again.
When you say procrastinating onwriting your own books, and I
look at your website and youhave so Friggin many books that
this blew me away that youactually have a paid guide to
your series.
Like I, as a reader, could gospend a buck 99 on Kindle and

(29:02):
and Download a guide to figureout where should I read, where
should I start, how did this allthese Books intersect and I was
blown away.
You are very prolific.

Pamela (29:14):
I, I have been at times and and I think, like a lot of
authors, I also had, you know, Ihad a couple of books in the
can before I started publishingthat were ready to go, and so
you know, not Nora Roberts level, you know, I think however many
she had like 18 or somethingunder the bed, but I still had
four.

(29:34):
So it was a nice head start.
When I'm really cranking, youknow, I'm not fast like the
fantasy writers that write one amonth or the romance writers
that write one a month, but whenI'm really cranking I can do
four or five a year.
I'm not cranking right now.
Right now I am so not cranking.

(29:55):
I'm practically retired rightnow.
But I just Always have beenthis kind of person that can't
stop, won't stop.
So it's a disease.
It's a disease.

Greta (30:06):
So you're not cranking, but you're kind of cranky.
Is that real?
Yeah, yeah.

Pamela (30:11):
Yeah, I.
I'm having a lot of troublewith forward momentum and it's
probably the first time in my 12years of serious writing career
that I've had this problem.
So I have lots of empathy forpeople who say oh, I have
writer's blocker, I'm havingtrouble getting going.
I'm having trouble gettinggoing for my first time ever,
and it's not because I don'thave time.
I've got all the time in theworld.

Megan (30:35):
Sometimes that's the problem, though.
Yeah, I mean I don't know aboutfor you, but sometimes it's.
It's when I'm busier I'm ableto get more done, like, and not
just you know, and the workstuff, the marketing stuff, but
also figure out ways to get morewriting and too, whereas, like
summer vacation, wheneverybody's kind of you know,
lazy and oh I don't have to wakeup early, and then pretty soon

(30:55):
it's like, oh, I'm not ready, ohwait, yeah, and I need a good
hard deadline.

Pamela (31:02):
I need to.
I need to really feel it.
So, but I have a millionreasons why I'm being a slacker
right now with the bottom lineis Is I need to sit my butt in
the chair and type more words?
Yeah, so so explain to me,because when I was looking on
your website, you have.

Greta (31:16):
How many books do you have?
By the way, I've got 24published novels and I have.
I think that's correct.

Pamela (31:21):
I have 17 plus 7, yet 24 published novels, and then I
have three more that are beingpublished in January by book a
tour.
They're doing a simultaneousrelease that I'm terrified of
and and then I have I have likefive that are in progress in
various stages.
So you know there could be anexplosion next year of Pamela

(31:42):
Fagan Hutchins books, but Ididn't publish anything for over
the last year while I wasworking through the book a chair
contract, but it's a lot ofthem so.

Greta (31:54):
So, before I go to the next question, so, before we get
to the book, a chair contract,because that's something I want
to ask you about as well.
What I was seeing on yourwebsite is that all these
different series and you haveseveral are kind of
interconnected and but yetPatrick Flint takes place in the

(32:15):
70s and these other ones, Ithink, are more modern.
So I'm curious about that andand so anyway, but I have
thoughts, but first I want tohear how are they interconnected
?
How does your brain work?

Pamela (32:28):
My brain works, as there's only one Pamela Fagan
Hutchins world and that thecharacters that inhabit it,
whether they're in the 1970s orwhether they're 40 years older,
in, and they're in 50 yearsolder, having me years as far as
2020.
I'm not a mathematician, I'm so45 years older, but that

(32:51):
they're all in one world andthat they they don't exist in
alternate realities and they allhave the potential of
Intersecting.
So, for instance, with PatrickFlint, I have a new series that
started coming out last year,the Jen Harrington mysteries,
and they're also set in Wyoming,and they're set 40 years later
and the Patrick Flint charactersare there and their appropriate

(33:11):
age, which is 40 years older.
In those books, and then withall my other books, there are
reasons for Characters to haveconnections and to enter each
other's world.
The first series I wrote was theKatie Connell mysteries and
that was a Texas to Caribbean,now a mystery.
So then the next series was herTexas best friend, and Then the

(33:33):
next series was her law schoolroommate, and the next series
was her Island best friend orCaribbean best friend, and then
the next series was you know thelaw school roommates Friend
from.
You know the books that we met,you know back there and so I
kept spinning off and it gave me, selfishly, a Way not to have

(33:53):
to write more than three or fourbooks per protagonist and they
stayed fresh to me, really fresh, and I also saw the books is
kind of a Without thinking ofthem as trilogies, which most of
them were as a story arc rightthat you go across three books
and within each book you have anarc and you have a plot, and
within the series itself, or thetrilogy, you have an arc and

(34:15):
and and a character progression.
So it worked for me and then Ibuilt those all into a super
series.
So that's what I did and itworks for me because I just
they're real to me.
So why, would they be real toeach other was how I looked at
it.
Now it does get really superconfusing trying to remember who

(34:37):
did what, when, where, why andto whom.
You know and how, and and thankGod that we write and I have
all my books in vellum in oneand I have one that's just the
Pamela Fagan Hutchins library,and each time I write something
new I throw it at the end sothat I can search it all at once
and it's all you know, severalmillion words right there in one

(34:59):
vellum file and I can search itand try to figure out how to
how to continuity With somethingI wrote ten years ago that I
have to be consistent withbecause they're all in the same
world.

Megan (35:10):
That's interesting.
We actually just taught a orheld a story Bible masterclass
where we talked about all thethings that you have to do to
keep track of your series, butyou take it to a whole nother
level the complexity of how muchstuff you have to keep in your
head or on the page or be ableto search and keep consistent,

(35:33):
because I have enough troubledoing it with my five book
series versus doing it overmultiple series and multiple
worlds or multiple story arcs, Iguess.

Pamela (35:45):
I think that if you write fantasy and I think you do
, right, yeah, I do I thinkthat's harder because you are.
You are, you're creating aworld that is your own world,
right, and it everything'sdifferent from the world the
rest of us inhabit.
So hats off to you, because Ionly have to keep my characters,
continuity going within a worldthat's just like the one we

(36:08):
live in for the most part.
So I think yours is harder.

Megan (36:12):
Well, thank you, I actually you know.
It's funny that you say that,though, because I feel like,
with with fantasy, once youbuild the world, if you can stay
in the world, it's so mucheasier versus having to build a
new one for each series.
Yeah, but because I don't know.
I think too that even with youknow mysteries or things that

(36:33):
are set in contemporary earth,you know the US, even the place
that you live.
Right, you still have to doworld building.
You still have to understandwhat that town or city or place
looks like.
You still have to understandwhat the shops are and who's
there and why they're there,what the culture is like.
So I do think there's still.
I think you're not givingyourself enough credit.

(36:53):
Let me put it that way.

Pamela (36:55):
I think one of the things that this is me
personally as a reader and soit's bled over into me as a
writer is one of the mostimportant things to me is
authenticity, and that youreally believe in the world,
whether it's fantasy orcontemporary mystery, and so
that that really means thatwhatever is happening is
authentic to the place and thetime and the culture and the

(37:18):
predominant religion andwhatever ever subculture and and
you know, et cetera is going on, and for the place, you know is
because that then informs whothe characters are and how they
act, and and so I do think it'ssuper important and and I really
encourage people to pay a lotof attention to it, because
building that really authenticworld means that you can layer

(37:41):
in really authentic charactersand authentic events on top of
it.

Megan (37:45):
Yeah, absolutely.

Greta (37:48):
Another thing that we've had conversations about is
especially with this whole AIthing, and everybody's terrified
that computers are going towrite our books, which, based on
how AI writes my bookdescriptions.
They're not writing any booksanytime soon, but what?
One of the things that a lot ofauthors have been talking about

(38:08):
is the idea that we areoffering people in a immersive
world.
We're not just offering peopleone story, we're offering them,
and I love that idea thatthere's only one Pamela Fagan
Hutchins world and I kind ofhave done that same thing.
I have one series that's morehumorous and it has ghosts in it

(38:31):
and stuff like that.
And then I have a series that'sdomestic suspense and has no
ghosts and it's not that funnyand but they're both in the same
world and I have, like myreaders who like both worlds, in
joy, like I'll put the same.
I have a wine that I made up.
It's called red ravish.
That's in every book in my oneseries that's with the publisher

(38:54):
, and so I just had my indielike mortician series person
just run into a restaurant andfind this wine and just love it,
and so my readers like email meoh my gosh, you have red ravish
in this.
It's like this idea that youcan plant these little things
that make your world feel likeyou say it's layered in, real

(39:15):
and authentic.
You know, bringing in thosethose elements.

Pamela (39:20):
And then your readers feel like they found a special
Easter egg that you hid withinthe pages just for them and
they're super excited and startlooking for more.
You know.

Greta (39:29):
Yeah, it's just, it's a lot of fun and it works for, I
think, a lot of authors too thatour brains just kind of go
there right.
We have this imaginary worldthat we like to retreat into,
and hopefully then we can take awhole bunch of readers with us.

Pamela (39:45):
Exactly, exactly.

Greta (39:49):
So talk, go ahead, megan your turn.

Megan (39:51):
I think we're both going to ask the same thing.

Greta (39:53):
Yes, I think so too, so you go ahead.

Megan (39:56):
Well, I was going to say so.
Tell us I mean, given this,this interconnected world,
there's only one Pamela FaganHutchins world.
Tell us about the moving into atraditional contract, and you
know publishing both indie andtraditional.

Pamela (40:14):
I had always said that I didn't ever want to go
traditional.
I had, in the very beginning,sent out as everybody does query
letters and I had a lot ofsuccess with it.
You know the point at which Ihad three different manuscripts
manuscripts out on full reviewwith different literary agents

(40:35):
my husband took me aside andsaid and he's the one that
bought me the guide to literaryagents and he said, sweetie,
with all due respect, and I loveyou more than anyone in the
world does, but you're a controlfreak and you don't want anyone
telling you how to do it, whento do it, what to do.
You know what your cover isgoing to look like, what your
release schedule is going tolook like.
I'll support you whatever youwant to do.

(40:58):
But if you want to go indie,I'll help you do it.
And at first I thought thatmeant I was just going to put an
ebook out there and then fadeinto oblivion and that someday
maybe, you know, I'd writeanother book.
But, as I said, the first one,the timing was good with Kindle
and it did very well.
And so I then launched on tothis 10 year journey of writing

(41:19):
indie books and it was great.
But I reached a point where Irealized I'm making money, which
is, for me, is one measure ofsuccess, right, you look at it
and say is this been worth my?
You know my investment?
And yet I am not with what Iwrite, who my audience is and

(41:40):
how I reach them.
I don't think I'm going to jumpany more big levels, so to
speak.
I'm going to make my little sixfigure income not little.
I'm not minimizing that, butI'm going to do that and that's
going to be it and I'm going towork really hard to do that.
Or I could see if I could findsomebody else to help me expand

(42:01):
into their audience, somebodythat wants my audience, that I
can expand into theirs.
And I had had several podcastguests on Crime and Wine that
were writing for Booker Choreand had written for multiple
other publishers.
Some of them had written indieand were Booker Chore and they
were all telling me they lovedit and that these are my words

(42:23):
that Booker Chore is like asuper indie, meaning that they
were nimble and made decisionslike you would if you were an
indie with your own books, butthey were doing it on the order
of magnitude of you know, huge,you know, as far as their sales
and their number of authors, butthat they treated it as this is

(42:44):
digital publishing and we'renot going to act like a chef,
even though they own us.
You know, we're going to actlike Booker Chore and I loved
that because that spoke to me.
So, anyway, I submitted to themand got in with an editor who I
love, and we proceeded to notpublish the book they were going
to publish for me, because Ididn't want to make the changes

(43:05):
they wanted me to make.
And I was thinking, gosh, myhusband was right, I'm
completely uncooperative.
And so I said hey, I'll justtalk to you guys in a year,
because I'm going to go aheadand publish this book and if I'm
going to publish it, I'm goingto write a few more and make it
worth my while.
And they said wait, wait, wait,wait, wait, wait.
What about another book?

(43:25):
Tell us another book you'dwrite.
And I said Okay, what aboutthis?
And they said that sounds great, write us a pitch.
I wrote him a pitch and theysaid Super, now let's change.
And they started going throughthe list again and I thought, oh
God, it's just sitting workingfor me and I said no, I really
don't want to do this.
They said, okay, we'll do ityour way.
Signed a contract Nice when I'mturning into the first bit of

(43:48):
it and they're like, could wechange?
And again it was back toexactly the same thing and it
was a decision point.
It was like am I going to beable to do this?
And my husband said, pamela,you owe it to yourself to try
and do it their way once,because you have just been
telling us that your way istapped out and you don't think

(44:08):
you can find that many morereaders.
I said, damn it.
And I wrote the book they askedfor and it didn't kill me.
And it was.
If they wanted me to write amore procedural, to have a
deputy as my protagonist insteadof amateur sleuth.
And I was fighting like a horsefrom first time, with a bit you
know.
No, I will not know, I will not.

(44:29):
I did.
It didn't kill me, it turnedout great.
My beta readers like it evenbetter than the stuff I've
written Indy.
The process didn't kill me, itnearly did and we're going to
have to.
Really, I'll tell you.
I've been told, no matter what,they won't do what you ask them
.
They're fantastic, they'rewonderful.
And if you tell them you don'tlike their covers.

(44:51):
They're going to say, oh, we'reso sorry, and they're going to
do what they want.
They changed all the covers forme.
I'm nervous about the releasestrategy and they've offered to
change that for me.
They're being awesome and I'mjust a nut job because I've been
an Indy for 10 years, you know,and I think I know everything
right, except I don't.
That's why I'm with them.
So finally, I just said youknow what Succeed, or fail,

(45:12):
let's do it your way, becausethis was me in the first place
saying let's, let's do thisbecause I want to try something
different.
It's almost like I said it'salmost killed me, but I love
them.
I love them and it's almostkilled me.

Greta (45:26):
You know, I thought that's a fabulous story because
I think we do that like,especially when we've been doing
something for a period of time,we get in our little rut, our
little way of doing things, andthen this is like a real step
outside and, like you say it,what doesn't kill kill you,

(45:49):
makes you stronger, right,that's probably exactly.
Yeah, police procedural scaresthe tar out of me too.
I don't blame you for puttingyour foot down on that, because
everybody's so picky and theyknow where they think they know
because of how many CSI episodesthey've watched, or whatever.

Pamela (46:07):
So I'm, I'm.
They wanted me to write Wyoming, that's, that's what they liked
, is how I did Wyoming.
And they wanted me to have afemale deputy.
And so I went to my friendwho's the chief of police and,
and you know, down the hall fromthe county, you know, sheriff,
and I said, travis, I can't dothis without you.
I'm absolutely terrified.
I've, I've always, you know,turned to people, at least

(46:31):
locally, for local information,if not job specific, if I hadn't
done that job before, and he'sbeen fantastic.
And so I basically been onspeed text with the police chief
in the small town.
That is really what the smalltown is based upon in these
books.
And I chose to stay small townbecause that also means you
don't have CSI, right you?

Greta (46:53):
don't have.

Pamela (46:54):
it's all much more, not much more Longmire, it's much
more CJ box right, it is reallyhow it is in a smaller community
.
So I didn't have to worry abouthigh technology for the most
part and in fact what I worryabout is weather, and you know
bad criminals and mountain lionsand you know the things that
you worry about if you'refighting crime in the wild, wild

(47:16):
West.

Greta (47:18):
Well, and that's sort of easier because you were already
in that mode Exactly, youalready have bad guys and
mountain lions in your books.

Pamela (47:26):
It was a way for me to segue and these books are in the
Pamela Fagan Hutchins world.
You know I did not have to goand create a new timeline.
I've managed to work in somedrops in each book not a ton,
because it's extraneous to whatwe're trying to achieve, but
there are there little nuggetsin there that are from my

(47:47):
readers of my other series thatthey will recognize character
names or songs on the radio thatare make believe songs that I
made up.
You know that things like that,yeah.

Megan (47:56):
I think those Easter eggs are so important for readers
though.
So I think that's really smartof you, because you are, by
doing that, you are bringingyour current audience over and,
hopefully, getting the newaudience interested enough that
when they go back to yourbacklist on your indie published
stuff which they will becausethey're going to love your books

(48:16):
then it's already you know it'salready in place, and so
they'll be.
They'll have their own Eastereggs once they go back.
Oh, that's what she wasreferring to, or there's that
song again, or you know whatever.
So I think that's so, so smartand the best way to maximize
that hybrid published author,publisher yeah.

Pamela (48:38):
That right.

Megan (48:38):
How are you going to phrase that?
Yeah, exactly.

Pamela (48:41):
And going forward now with my contemporary books.
I can, I can reverse Easter eggright, and now I can even cross
over ties into this new series,which is is going to be fun.
I can't go back in time forPatrick Flint Maybe the
ancestors of some of thesecharacters.
I can, I can write into Patrick, but it's it's working and

(49:03):
we'll see how it goes.
You know it's going to be myfirst release with them in
January, but no matter what, Ithink I win right Because even
if it's not a smash success bytheir standards, they're still
bringing me new readers into,into what it is that I have
already written and I you know.

(49:23):
So who knows how it will go,but that was my goal.

Megan (49:29):
And.

Pamela (49:30):
I felt like I had nothing to lose other than a
year and a half of tearing myhair out.
It took me longer to writethese books because you go
through their process, but itwas.
It's still pretty fast.
I mean, they're a digitalpublisher and they churn yeah.

Megan (49:43):
That's.

Greta (49:44):
I've always been really interested in book assure.
Did you have to?
Just a quick question, sorry tocut you off, megan Did you need
an agent to pitch them, or didthey have open submission, or
how did that work?

Pamela (49:57):
I had just parted with an agent and I actually decided
that I would wait until that wasofficial because they don't
require you to be agented.
About half the authors areagented and half or not.
I think it doesn't hurt becauseyou've got somebody with
credibility vouching for you.
But I happened to know theirmaybe their second top selling

(50:21):
author and be friends with her,and so I had, and she was also
had become a reader, so I hadher kind of advocating for me
and that, I think, helped in theprocess.
But honestly, they are lookingfor people that are writers,
that they like their writing andthey're willing to write in one
of their genres and theyunderstand digital publishing.

(50:43):
You know that they are not soentrenched in traditional,
traditional publishing that thattransition is going to be hard
for them and that for the mostpart, they want somebody that's
willing to write not tooccasionally write, because you
know they want to feed theracist readers of series, so

(51:04):
that but they also do standalonepsychological thrillers.
They've had fantastic successthis year with freedom
McFadden's housemaid series.

Greta (51:12):
She is just rushing it free to make that.
We need to have her on thepodcast because it's like, yeah,
she's super nice.

Pamela (51:19):
I had her on mine and they just signed her to do the
third in the series.
She really is crushing it andthey did a fantastic job with
her.
They they opened new doors forher.
They hit new milestones for heras well, as she'd been doing
that she hadn't been able to hiton her own and, and you know
that's I think they're great.
And there's other.
You know, like the guy thatfounded Bookature's founded a

(51:42):
new publishing company now thatis non-compete is over, called
Storm.
You know there's some othersthat are doing this.
You know, kind of I don't knowwhat you would call it, it's
almost like alt traditional youknow, yeah, that they got
traditional backing.
I mean, half of the authors thatwrite for Bookature have Grand
Central Pub book deals andthey've got, you know,

(52:03):
translations all over the worldand things like that.
So if they think that the salesmerit it, they're going to die
deeper and they've got all therelationships in place, but
they're not going to waste allthe money upfront because
they're like an indie, like asuper indie right, they're not
that dumb.
Let's see where we need toinvest our money first, instead
of dump you know scat money andthen pulp a bunch of books.

Greta (52:27):
Very interesting.
Yeah Well, we're just going tohave to have you on next year
again so you can tell us how thegrand experiment worked Now
fingers crossed.
Yeah, but I do love likethere's so many opportunities
these days for people that didnot exist in the past.
You know, like you say alttraditional, that's like a whole
new category.

(52:48):
I like that.
Thank you.

Pamela (52:49):
I couldn't think of a way to describe it.
I can't.
I just randomly came to me.
So yeah, it is very much whatit's like.
Yeah, it's interesting.

Megan (52:58):
So tell us a little bit about your crime and wine
podcast, because all the timeI'm just like I'm not a thriller
writer and I'm not so much acrime reader.
I do like wine and readings.

Pamela (53:14):
Well, I started a podcasting sporadically.
I usually do it about ninemonths at a time and then take a
break with authors on the air,global Radio Network and Pam
Stack.
She produces all the shows andI'd been a guest on her show and
kind of like everything.
She said that I had the gift ofgab.
So I gabbed and originally itwas wine, women and writing, and

(53:39):
you know just the idea of thekind of books you read for book
club and I talked to other womenwriters about their female
protagonists etc.
But as I got deeper intowriting crime fiction, I kind of
rebranded as crime and wine andI don't restrict myself to
women only now, but really tothe crime writers that I want to
write.
And then I mean I've had myheroes on the show.

(54:02):
You know everybody, from SandraBrown to you know more
contemporary heroes, like CraigLongmeyer, who when I first had
him on the show I credit long, Icredit Johnson.
When I first had him on theshow I knew that I lived only
half an hour away from him inWyoming but had never met him
and so it was fun to pitch him.
And then when he said where doyou want to do the interview, I

(54:23):
said, you know how, about theOccidental, which is a bar in
Buffalo, wyoming?
You know that's the setting ofhis books.
He calls it Absaroka, but it is, you know, of Durant, Absaroka,
county, durant, but it is basedin Buffalo, wyoming.
The places are the same, and wemet in the Occidental and

(54:43):
people started realizing that wewere doing a show and that that
was the Craig Johnson, and sowe had people on, because it's
10 o'clock in the morning on aFriday.
So of course people are in abar in Wyoming.
You know it makes total sense,right?
They're getting on their phonesand watching the interview
while they watch the interview,and that was a lot of fun.
So it's been a fantastic wayfor me to meet other authors and

(55:06):
in fact it's largely why I didit.
As my face to face communitybuilding shrunk, I moved up to
the face of a mountain inWyoming instead of living in the
urban jungle of Houston.
I needed another way to crosspromote other authors, to get to
know new authors and to keepbuilding those types of

(55:29):
relationships that we startedthis show, talking about right
People that help each other, andand so originally my guest list
just read like a menu of who doI want to meet, you know, ok,
let's call Robert DeGoni next,let's call CJ Box next.
And you know, and nobody eversaid no, so it was great.
I've really enjoyed it and it'show I've gotten great blurbs

(55:53):
from books.
You know I've had advice,friends, people referring me
into their publisher.
You know, for me it's been,it's been great, and then, you
know, it's fun too.

Greta (56:07):
Yeah, I mean, that's sort of part of the reason that
Megan and I started this podcastwe want to help listeners, but
it's also been a great chance tolike have an excuse to.
You know, let's see if Pamelawants to be on the show and then
I get to pick her brain and andmeet her.
And you know we've had someamazing guests and it really is,

(56:30):
and it is that you're not justwalking up to somebody and
saying, hey, give me your adviceand help me out and teach me
things.
You're offering them a giftbecause everybody wants a little
extra publicity and wantspeople to find them.
And so I think Joanna Penn, whois one of my you know virtual

(56:51):
mentors she she talked aboutthat when she started her
podcast back in the day was forthe exact reason, the exact same
reason you know.
Well, it's a great opportunity.

Megan (57:05):
Yeah, to bring it back full circle, it's the five
people you surround yourselfwith, right?
So if you're getting you knowlocally, you might not have the
opportunity to be friends withor pick the brains of or talk to
, you know, the leading expertsin the industry or your favorite
authors or whatever.
But by doing the podcast, yes,for us, right, like we obviously

(57:29):
want to help writers, that'sour whole focus is on making
sure that we're getting you knowtips and tricks and best
practices and ideas andinspiration for writers.
But guess what?
We're doing that for ourselvestoo, and getting to meet some
wonderful, wonderful people andhave those conversations.
So it's really, I think, beenhelpful for us to kind of up our

(57:50):
own games too, both on thefiction side as well as the
nonfiction side, as we continueto try, try to build both sides
of our, our businesses.
So, so, yeah, so for all of youout there, like five being on a
podcast, Exactly, absolutely.

Pamela (58:06):
And you know what's really cool is it is very rare
that I don't end a podcastepisode and spend another 20
minutes talking with that personafter we get off the air and
then trade emails and becomefriends with I mean, it's really
the exception rather than therule.
And they're the first people Ithink of when I think gosh, I've
got a new release and I wonderif anyone would like to do a

(58:29):
giveaway, you know, in my groupto help promote the release or
whatever you know.
And it immediately becomessomething where I want to do
something for them again.
I've just done a whole show forthem.
I've just plastered their nameand their book everywhere.
But that friendship is real andyou carry that forward with you
and they become part of, youknow, your ongoing community of

(58:52):
helping each other.
It's just the gift that keepson giving.

Megan (58:56):
Put good karma out and hopefully get good karma back in
return, and I hate that.
You know, I personally, when itcomes to like cross promotions
and things like that, I don'tnecessarily keep track of who
I've promoted, right Like, Idon't go tic-tac one for one
Well, I promoted you, so now youneed to promote me.
I just keep putting that stuffout and figure at some point

(59:17):
other people will return thefavor, and if they don't, they
don't.
But if they do, awesome andwe're all good, right Like.
So it's just kind of thatgenerosity wins the day attitude
.

Pamela (59:27):
Exactly.
The longer you wait to ask forsomething and just keep doing
nice stuff, the more effectiveit is when you do actually need
to ask.
In fact, you realize you'venever had to ask because people
just noticed you were the kindof person that do for other
people and they started doingnice things for you.
It is a put the good energy outand the good energy comes back.

(59:51):
It really works.

Greta (59:53):
Cast your bread upon the waters and it'll come back
buttered Right.

Pamela (59:57):
There you go.

Greta (59:58):
Yeah.

Megan (01:00:02):
All right.
Well, I think those were allthe topics we had on our agenda
for today.
Anything else, Greta, that youwant to ask before we do the
final wrap up?

Greta (01:00:13):
Actually, I'm just going to wait till we hang up and then
yeah.

Megan (01:00:17):
And then we'll have our 20 minute conversation.

Greta (01:00:19):
We'll have our conversation at that point, yeah
.

Pamela (01:00:24):
Well, you guys, this has been great.
Thank you so much.

Megan (01:00:27):
Well, so, pamela, tell us on air, here first, where we
can find you, your books, bestplaces to you know, meet you
virtually online or engage withyou, and of course, we will have
all these links in the shownotes as well.

Pamela (01:00:41):
Great.
Well, you can get my booksanywhere online.
Don't be afraid to ask yourlocal library to order them for
you as well.
And you will find me atPamelaFaganHudginscom.
And the best place to engagewith me, I think, is probably
Facebook.
I've got a Facebook pagePamelaFaganHudgins author.

(01:01:02):
I've got a group calledPamela's Posse.
I've got a fairly strongpresence on Instagram, but I
don't know about you guys.
I've tried TikTok.
I am not yet TikTok.
I'm not TikTokable.
So anyway, one of these daysmaybe I'll figure it out, and
that's probably the best placesto find me Awesome.

Megan (01:01:24):
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
This has been a fabulousconversation.
I know I picked up a lot oftips and ideas, so I'm going to
work on that self narrationconcept here a little bit.
But anyway, thank you so muchfor joining us and to all of our
listeners keep your storiesrolling.