Nurturing Your Story: Insights on Writing and Editing with Jennifer Silva Redmond

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery Thriller.
Author.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award winning fantasy
adventure author, and togetherwe are the Author Wheel.
So today we are excited to havea dear friend and one of our
favorite editors in the line offire, jennifer Silva Redmond, on
the show.
We actually originally metJennifer at the Southern

(00:28):
California Writers Conference,which is also where Greta and I
met.
So it's very nostalgic, butwe've long admired her editing
work.
She's just really good at whatshe does and she co-leads a
fantastic course at thatconference that I always try to
catch if I can, which is calledPitch Witches, which helps
writers figure out how toquickly and concisely hook a

(00:51):
potential reader with their booktagline.
So if you've taken our sevendays to clarity course, that's
kind of sort of a little bitwhere we got that idea.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, yeah, she's amazing.
She's also a very generous andgracious person.
She years ago offered to readTo Die For for me back when I
was trying to decide where andhow to publish it, and she gave
me some great tips and also heropinion on agents that she
thought might be interested inand a few that I was thinking of

(01:21):
pitching that she knew wouldn'tbecause she knew what they were
working on.
So it was really helpful, andthis conversation is just we
really get down in the crafttrenches.
So if you want to hear somereally fabulous tips about
structuring your work and thingsto look out for and all of that

(01:45):
.
It's just really a funconversation.
But before we get into that,what is going on with you, megan
?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
So my big news is that Aether Cross launches this
week, on Tuesday, november 7.
It's available on all the ebookplatforms.
So if you enjoy fantasy, gograb a copy.
Other than that, I am justkeeping on, keeping on.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
OK, doke, well, as you're listening to this, if
you're listening on the day ofthe release, we are in Vegas.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
So yeah, so my only news is kind of a little
experiment.
I thought this was interesting.
Amazon actually emailed me andasked if they could put one of
the Mortician series which is todie for, into a special daily
deal.
So it's going to.
They're reducing the price oneday only, they're putting it and

(02:37):
I'm not exactly sure how theypromote this is going to just be
an interesting thing, but it'sgoing to be in the US and in
Canada, but they're dropping theprice and promoting it for one
day only, and that day istomorrow, november 7.
So I say, go get Megan'sAethercross and go to Amazon and

(02:57):
get to die for if you want tocatch some deals from us, if you
want to read what we've been upto.
But that's all we got to say.
So let's get on with theinterview.
Today we have JenniferSilver-Redmond.
She is a writer and editorwhose memoir Honeymoon at Sea
was just released by Rebooks ofToronto.

(03:19):
She is on the staff of theSouthern California Writers
Conference and San Diego WritersInc.
Jennifer lives with her husbandRussell, an artist and a
teacher, aboard their sailboaton the west coast of North
America.
Welcome, jennifer.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Good to be here.
Thank you, guys, so much.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
I'm going to give a little bitmore backstory here, because so,
as mentioned in the bio,jennifer is on the staff of the
Southern California WritersConference, which is where Greta
and I met.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah, it's so sentimental.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, we have known Jennifer since then and I
distinctly remember taking yourPitch Witches class back in the
day and having to pitch LastDescendant, which was terrifying
and I was terrible at it, butwe figured it out at least a
little bit, and that, honestly,has inspired, at least in part,

(04:20):
some of our author strategy work, because one of the things that
we are working on is helpingauthors build taglines for their
career and not just their book,but book as well but making it
pithy and fun and unique.
So we're thrilled to have youon the show and we're thrilled
that you're with us and thankyou so much.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
And I'm going to share a Jennifer story too,
before we get into asking youquestions.
But I went to one of yourworkshops and I honestly don't
remember what it was called, butI do remember I had this like
aha moment about how, if youhave your character talking and
then the character says Ithought or I had a memory of, or

(05:04):
something like that, thatyou're actually pulling the
reader out of the character'shead, and it was like brilliant,
and I just helped a new writerwith that exact thing.
But I didn't give you credit,I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
You know, chuck Polaniak was the one for me.
I'm probably saying his namewrong, but, chuck, he's Fight
Club.
Yeah right, fight Club, ok.
And he wrote a thing calledabout thought verbs.
And he opens it by saying in 60seconds you're going to hate me

(05:40):
, but in six months you're goingto be a better writer.
And he just goes on to say thatwhole thing about.
I thought, I remembered, Imused, I recalled or even I
realized.
People think that's active, butit's like I was joking class
and I'm like so what am I doingnow?
Was I realizing?
Was I remembering?
In other words, it's a nothingthing that happens, so it's not

(06:02):
visual, it's not interesting,you know, but I still find
myself doing it.
I was writing something todayand so like, really I remembered
, come on.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Everyone said a while you have to use those words,
but mostly you're right.
I mean, I just try to knockthem out as much as possible.
But before we get into all thisamazing craft stuff that
everybody is going to want to,hear about let's dive in.
Why don't you give ourlisteners a little bit more

(06:35):
background?
Tell us how you got to be theJennifer Silver Redmond of fame
and fortune that you are today.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
Well, it all began actually on a little boat.
There's my new book on a littleboat.
My husband and I got married in1989.
And six months later we tookoff on his sailboat to Mexico
for what we thought would be athree month honeymoon.
I was at the time living in NewYork City and pursuing an

(07:04):
acting career, meaning I waswaiting tables, and so I thought
this will be fun.
I mean, this is a break.
It would be cold and snowy anddepressing in New York and I can
go somewhere.
It's sunny and warm notterribly warm in November and
Baja, but better than New York.
And we loved it so much that wejust kept going OK, can we eat

(07:27):
more rice and beans?
Can we just not do anything?
That costs money?
And we just kept stretching itout and Russell was becoming I
mean, he was already an artist,but he was getting into doing
paintings much more.
So he was painting and Istarted writing, because one I
was 3,000 miles away from theGreat Broadway, which didn't

(07:48):
want me anyway.
But I mean I had a dream and Istarted writing, of course every
night in my ship's log, myjournal, and then over the
months I would go back and say,well, that was an interesting
day, that was an interestingexperience.
I should turn that into anessay or a short story or an
article.
And so that just kept happeningmore and more.

(08:12):
And in the book I discussed thatit was really the.
I had always loved reading andwriting.
I mean, I grew up in librariesbecause I was a poor kid, so we
didn't buy books, we borrowedthem and you know.
But that showed me a wholeworld, as it does every kid in
the library.
And here I was living thisreally amazing life on a small

(08:36):
boat with the love of my lifeand trying to figure out you
know, what am I going to do whenI grow up?
I was only 28, so give me abreak.
What will I do when I grow up,if that ever happens?
So I just kept doing more andmore writing.
And by the end of that trip thebook goes to the Panama Canal,
where we're at the end of ourfirst year or a little more, and

(09:00):
you know heading for still, wethought New York, but it turned
out not.
We came back to San Diego andwe went back to Baja and lots of
other things happened.
But along the way it just keptwriting and people would say to
me oh, I had an incredibleexperience.
You should take my story andfix it for me.
Really, how did I get this job?

(09:21):
So, you know, I did that alittle bit.
My dad's an editor in, my mom'sa poet and a writer, and so I
kind of feel like it was in myblood and somehow I was able to
help people a little bit, youknow, with their stories, and
that was something I just keptdoing more and more so that's
great.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
So you're.
You are a developmental editor.
Yes, I am.
So why don't we kind of go intothis a little bit with in some
of the other episodes?
But can you just break down thekinds of editing you do and
what that means as adevelopmental editor, Because
there are so many differentkinds of editing or book

(10:00):
coaching or helping that that'sout there.
I think it helps to kind ofclarify for those things Totally
.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
And right after I said yes, I was saying to myself
not exactly because I thinkwhat a lot of people say, a
developmental editing, what theywhat they think it means and it
can, which is why it's soconfusing is I have this idea,
I've got maybe some notes and Ineed somebody to tell me what

(10:29):
kind of book it's going to beand help me figure it out and
help me fit it into a genre orfit it into a saleable package,
and that is not what I do.
So what I do, I call it contentor structural editing, and once
again, these phrases are sointerchangeable because I only
work with complete manuscripts,so somebody doesn't have to have

(10:51):
draft 25, but they need to havea rough draft that goes from
beginning to end.
Because, as I always say, ifI'm looking for something,
having, you know, read the first10 chapters, I can say, oh, I
need something.
This 10 chapters needssomething for this arc or for
this story, but I don't know ifit's in chapter 25 until I've

(11:13):
read it, you know.
So I can't know people like,can you just edit the first 50
pages?
I can edit for grammar, I canedit for style, but I can't help
with the manuscript until I'veread it all.
So I read the manuscript andthen I give it back with notes
and many times I mark up themanuscript and say like you can

(11:34):
lose all of this and or you canmove this earlier or you know
very much at the time.
As you two probably know, it'sthis first three chapters is
great that you know this, butyou're boring us to tears and,
in the words of MSG or MichaelStephen Gregory, you started the
book before you started thestory so that there's so much

(11:56):
information that we're gettingand it needs to go much later in
the book or go away and just bein your brain as backstory.
So that's a lot of what I dobig structural.
So think of it as the big, themeta story, the arc of the whole
book, not just each character'sarc, but you know plot and
what's it, what's it all therefor?

(12:17):
Why are there three bestfriends when there can be one
best friend and things like that?

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, that starting the book before you start the
story thing, that really is.
That was another big aha momentfor me and you know, I've noted
that even now, like when I'mwriting, sometimes my characters
have to have a cup of coffeeand look out the window before
the chapter starts because Idon't know what's going to

(12:44):
happen, and you know.
But then I but I know this in mymind I'm just gonna cut that
out you know, it'll be fine, butI think that is a good lesson
for newer writers don't keeprewriting the first few chapters
over and over and over beforeyou finish the book.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Yeah, keep going, because how it's, I always say
writing and sailing are the same.
How can you possibly know whichway to point the boat to sail,
what way this tack, this routeis going to be, if you don't
know where you're going?
You know you could just go incircles and people do rewrite
beginnings over and over and,and I don't remember who it was

(13:22):
that said, but they, I want tosay was Annie Dillard said you
have to get to the last pagebefore you can go back and look
at page one, because then youknow how much you need to share.
And I always say that peopleturn pages because of what we
don't know.
We don't turn pages because ofwhat we do know.

(13:42):
So you give us all that.
And you know Laurie walked downthe street remembering that only
six months before she'd movedfrom Oklahoma City to Detroit
and you know it was so wonderfulto be working in the copy
department of a big magazine.
I mean, it's just oh, please.
I know you're excited aboutyour person and I know you're
excited about her backstory, butwe don't need to know it right

(14:05):
yet, you know and it's that.
It's that front loading with theinfo dump and all those great
cliches that we've all heard,but still so hard not to do it.
You know, I mean even we all doit, you know, sometimes, like
you say, just write it foryourself and keep, and then go
on to the rest of the book andthen come back and go like, oh

(14:26):
yeah, those first three chaptershave awful a lot of expository,
you know, yeah, how can, howcan I find other ways?

Speaker 2 (14:34):
yeah, and it's such a hard thing that even
experienced authors I mean, aswe mentioned, right, you still,
I still do it, grad is stilldoes it.
We all, we all do it to someextent.
But what is tricky and you getbetter at, I think, more than
anything else is being able tomake those cuts and not feel the
pain quite as much.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, that's the, that's the trick of it, killing
your darlings right absolutelyand I think too that you know
the thing of, but they need toknow that they need to know this
information, because I alwaysto and I'm sure I've probably
told you guys this at some pointbut I have people go over the
first 10 pages or maybe chapterhow, or you know however many

(15:18):
first pages are problematic witha highlighter and say like
what's an actual fact thatsomeone needs to know to be this
book?
And then look at the pages,like if 90% of the pages yellow,
it's just too much people, it'scramming five pounds of manure
in a two-pound sack.
You know, it just begins tofeel and oddly, people will say

(15:40):
I was bored or it was too slowand they're not reacting the way
we think.
They react like oh, I got toomuch information.
They just feel like it was slowand I wasn't hooked, I wasn't
interested because it's all thisintellectual information and
and their mind wanders andthat's why it's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
So it was interesting because I was talking to
somebody else who doesdevelopmental editing the other
day and he said that he's notdoing that anymore.
He's still book coaching but hewants to be more on the
publishing side, because he saidit just drove him bonkers.
He would sit with somebody andsay to them this list of facts

(16:22):
that you just it's going to borepeople to tears, I would just
cut it, you don't need it.
And they would argue with himno, it has to be in the book,
it's relevant, it's important.
He's like and he said this oneparticular woman he was coaching
, she, she did it the way shewanted to do it because she was
publishing it herself and leftin the list of facts.
And and she learned when she wasdoing a book signing event at a

(16:45):
bookstore that people keptasking her questions that were
in her list of facts, whichproved that they never read them
.
They all went lie, you know,and it's here they are asking
her the questions.
So you know, sometimes we doknow.
So one of the questions we askeverybody is what is the

(17:08):
greatest roadblock you've had toovercome to get where you are
and how did you overcome it?

Speaker 3 (17:15):
you know there's there are so many different
kinds of roadblocks.
Um, I can go all the way backto being a kid you know in and,
um, feeling like other kids inschool had more you know, books
and things that they that theycould use to get ahead.

(17:38):
Um, so I think that was kind ofsomething that stuck with me,
like being like this scrappyfighter, like I'm not going to
go down without a fight, kind ofthing.
Um, I never actually um, I wentto college but I never
graduated from college, so Ihaven't had the fallback
position that a lot of peoplehave of well, I'll teach,

(18:00):
because funny thing about youknow teaching is they kind of
want you to have a collegedegree of some kind.
Um, and though, obviously,people you know teach with all
kinds of different.
So I think it was one of thosethings that I I felt like I have
to make a go of writing in someway, because I felt like I'd

(18:21):
already in this voice talkingabout earlier that I had been an
actor and then I became awriter.
So I was like I can't changetwice, I can't.
No, this will make me seem likea flaky person.
So I have to make a go of it asa writer and I knew that was
really difficult, um, but when Istarted working with um, my

(18:43):
husband and I did a uh, I reallyam going to answer the question
.
We did a collection of writingwhen we were down in in Mexico
on the boat and people came tome and I helped them edit it and
people kept saying, oh, youmade it so much better.
And I thought, okay, I know howto do this, I can do this.
So when we started working withSunbelt in a publisher in San

(19:04):
Diego and I was working withthem in marketing because I was
marketing our publication thatthey were carrying and then I
was doing more and I thought, oh, I know marketing, I can do
marketing.
But then I thought I reallywant to be working with writers
to help them make their writingbetter, because I could see how,

(19:25):
when I was rewriting things, Icould make them better and I
could see how, when I workedwith people on these short
pieces in the collection, Icould help them make it better.
So I think the roadblock was myown lack of belief that I could,
without a college degree, callmyself an editor, which is crazy

(19:48):
when you think about it,because there is no degree.
There is no editing degree.
I mean, you can get an Englishdegree, but an English degree is
great for a copy editor, butwhat we've just been talking
about is the difference betweencopy editing and what so many
people need from an editor,which is okay.

(20:08):
You've got 120,000 words.
Where in there is that book?
Where in there is the actualbook that people want to read,
and maybe it's 70,000 words ormaybe it's 80,000 words, and
being able to see that is askill, a gift about a technique
who knows?
But it isn't something that Ithink you can teach people.

(20:30):
So that is a long seed as aneditor.
I can do it on paper, butapparently I can't do it when
I'm talking.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
No, but I think that's interesting because it
applies in so many otherscenarios as well, where we all
have, to some degree or another,a bit of imposter syndrome.
We all question, especially inthis career.
Like I used to work corporateAmerica and I think I've said
this before, but the thing is iswhen you're working in a

(21:00):
corporate job, you have a veryclear progression.
You have a very clear careerpath.
You know, yes, you have to goto college or probably, and then
you get a job as an entry-levelperson and then you do two
years of service and you earnthese things and you meet these
metrics and you get promoted toyour second level, and so on and

(21:20):
so forth all the way up thetrack.
And so it's very, it's all laidout for you.
It's easy.
I mean it's not easy, but it'seasy.
You know what you have to do.
It's clear, it's clear.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Not easy.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, exactly.
Whereas with the creativefields, when you're trying to do
this on your own, when you'retrying to be an entrepreneur and
be an artist of whatever formright Like, there's no clear
path on how to do this.
You have to just go for it, andso that roadblock of

(21:56):
questioning whether or not youactually have the skill to do it
makes so much sense becausethere's no one to tell you one
way or another, there's no clearpath to say I've achieved this.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
Right.
And then in my circumstancemuch like you, I mean I went
into corporate publishing.
So even though I worked for asmall publisher, I was a cog in
the wheel and that was great andI learned a lot.
But what I also learned after10 years of doing it is I was
spending of my eight hours a day, like seven hours were being

(22:29):
spent on P&L statements andgrants and budgets and meetings
and preparing for meetings,recapping meetings and resending
things and having more meetings, and I thought this isn't what
I signed up for, as much as Iloved it and I still love it.
I still worked with Sundell.

(22:50):
I called myself.
They've given me the title ofeditor at large, so I
occasionally still find peopleeven found one this week that I
hope will be a good fit for them, and so that's wonderful to do.
But I had to go out as afreelancer and that was
completely petrified because Ithought who am I to say that I
can do this, even though I'vebeen doing it for 10 years?

(23:11):
Who am I to have a businesscard and say I do this Right,
pay me to edit your book?
So I don't even want to tellyou what I was charging at first
, because it was like I don'tknow 50 bucks.
What do you think?
I mean, I just was so afraidpeople would say no.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Why didn't I know that you were only charging 50
bucks?

Speaker 3 (23:32):
I don't think I was really charging 50 bucks.
I think I was charging like adollar a page to start out with,
because I just thought, well,that sounds like something
everybody could do.
I mean, most books are onlymaybe 400, 500 pages long.
Everybody can afford that.
And I knew that I could readfast and that I had great
retention and things like that,and of course I'd been doing it.

(23:53):
I mean, I'd been the editor ofa publishing company but we also
had copy editors and otherpeople.
So it was very much take a deepbreath and jump off this cliff.
And there were a couple ofyears that was very scary.
But now I'm booked until April,right now.

(24:13):
So yeah, I mean I'm busy, busy.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, and it's very easy to undervalue yourself to
start, but hopefully eventuallyyou get to the point where it's
like, yeah, now you've proven itout, you've got a book of
business, you're booked outforever in a day and you don't
have to worry about it anymore.
So people are going to pay you.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Well, luckily, authors talk to other authors
and of course, when I'm teachingat the conference, that helps.
They go.
Like she sounds, like she knowswhat she's talking about,
Because you do, you do, you do.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Whether you do or not , we don't know, oh no, I told
you.
I was going to ask you aquestion.
I wonder how you're actingbackground because that was my
first career choice too, andthat was my first major was
drama in college.
How you're acting backgroundhas impacted your ability to get

(25:08):
story, because that's reallywhat it is is your understanding
story, story structure and theway that stories should flow,
because to me there's a bigdifference between English you
know copywriting and just makingsure the grammar is correct and
storytelling.

(25:30):
It's a huge divide and so I wasjust wondering how you felt that
.
Do you feel that your actingbackground impacted your ability
to do the storytelling part?

Speaker 3 (25:41):
I think it impacted my entire life so much and we
talk about this all the timebecause we met during a play.
I mean, we both grew up intheater.
So three things, three things Iwant to say about that.
One is rejection.

(26:02):
I mean, it taught me to handlerejection in a way that nothing
else in the world will prepareyou for, because there is
nothing like walking in the doorand having somebody go no, Not
interested, go away.
You're not what I pictured.
You're not.
You can't do this, you cannotbe the person I'm expecting.
You know, I mean you're justlike what.

(26:23):
I didn't say anything.
I mean just wrong, you're wrong, go, go away.
I'm trying to forget your name.
Don't even say it.
You know it's.
It's literally rejecting you.
You don't even have that since.
Well, it's not a story that theylike or a genre that they like.
No, it's like you go away.
And so you be prepared, you foreverything else in life.

(26:44):
It'll be to you, to in a waythat nothing else can and, as
you say, it teaches you a greatdeal of empathy, because you are
literally inhabiting acharacter.
So when you are readingsomebody's story, I totally am
the person.
I'm the hero, winner, the heroor whoever, and I don't
definitely notice when thingsdon't make sense.

(27:07):
You know just like I would,reading a screenplay or a play,
like, no, she would never dothat, she would never do that.
Oh, now we usually in ascreenplay or play you can't go
like, hi, I'm gonna fix yourplan for you before you cast me
in it.
But in a book you got to say no, she would never do that or he
would never do that, becauseyou've already given us these
other seven chapters Introducingus to this character and now

(27:28):
they're doing something thatmakes no sense, or it makes no
sense just in terms of story arcand all those you know great
Templates that we follow to someextent in every kind of
storytelling, and I think thatwas really it's hugely important
and I think too, acting justkind of teaches you about

(27:49):
psychology, people's psychology,so it's easier to deal with.
You know where Actors andwriters are kind of wonderfully
nutty.
You know they're very, they'revery creative, very imaginative
and sometimes very kooky, and sodealing with writers is a lot

(28:12):
like dealing with actors.
You know you have to be able tosay, okay, this is really good,
this part is really good, and beable to reassure them that you
get the story or that you getwhat's working.
You can't just say that's wrong.
You know it's.
You know what I mean.
So I think in a lot of ways,and it made a big impact on my

(28:32):
life- yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Think that's it's really interesting.
I've never thought about thatbefore.
You know how acting wouldinfluence writing.
I mean that's kind of a novelconcept.
But one thing I do love aboutthat is the inhabiting of the
character.
That's actually for me, that'show I, how I approach story,
that's how I write and that'swhy my books are generally in,
you know, first person or notfirst person, but single point
of view, and Because I inhabitthe character.

(28:57):
That's how I avoid head hopping, that's how I avoid all these
other you know, pitfalls of ofwriting.
But I think that is soimportant to actually Actually
Really just get inside thatcharacter.
So as an actor like that,that's very, that's that's I
don't know.
I think that's cool.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
That's what I do too, and I thought everybody did.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
But they don't.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
They don't know, and I I'm in a critique group with
some really amazing Writers,really really good writers, and
there's one in particular in hestruggles so much with head
hopping and I'm like I don'tunderstand how you can struggle
with this.
Like, if you're just movingthrough the story through the
point of view of XYZ character,how can you all of a sudden just

(29:45):
hop into the head of LMNOcharacter?

Speaker 3 (29:48):
you know, even in a third-person omniscient, you've
still got to care the most aboutsomeone.
Yeah, even if not through theentire book, at least in certain
sections, so that I agree withyou.
It's like it always strikes meas like okay, but you started
the chapter with him.
He got in the car, he drove tothe meeting, he pulled out the

(30:10):
gun you know he's the guy he'sdriving the story and then all
of a sudden you're in the otherguy's head.
Why do you pull out a gun?
What?
Why, huh?
How can you not see that?

Speaker 1 (30:19):
So yeah, but it's funny because when I did tell,
when I said it the way that Isaid it to you guys, he goes
wait, you're, you're in yourcharacter's head and I'm like,
well, yes, and he's like, oh,it's like he, it changed, it
changed things for him.
He never looked at it that waythat I should be in this

(30:41):
character's mind.
He was looking at it like hewas outside looking at a movie.
Oh, wow, and that's why hecould head hop, because you know
, in a movie, in a TV See, in ascene in a movie, you know you
have one actor is doingsomething and then the camera
shifts and another actor youknow and and so.
But I was like, oh, and, butanyway, I always credited.

(31:04):
Once I learned that noteverybody looked at it like me.
I credited my drama backgroundwith that, because even though
there are many characters onstage, I was only one of them,
so I don't know, it's a greatstory.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine that.
You're absolutely right.
Shocking to you to hear him saythat and hot, shocking to him
to hear you say that.
You just, I mean, of courseYou're in this person's head and
interesting, you, you made agreat leap.
There is watching movies andtelevision.
Every time they go to aclose-up it's because in the

(31:39):
filmmaker language, where we'relooking at somebody, thinking
right, so kind of each time yougo to a close-up you're kind of
head-hopping in a sense, I meanexternally.
Yeah, so for people growing upwatching movies and TV, they
might just naturally jump To andfrom, and of course, some
writers can do it brilliantly ina way with a, you know, with a

(32:00):
cool Transition that makes itfeel very natural.
But yeah, that's oh, I neverwould have thought of that.
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
It was just interesting, just because he's a
really, really great writer.
So it's just interesting to seehow different writers approach
things and like we all assumethat everybody does it the way
we do.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, well, and that's that's the thing too.
I think it's also a differencebetween people who heavily
outline and plot their storiesfirst, versus people who
approach it from inside thecharacter, like there's a
top-down or there's aninside-out.
There's all sorts of differentways to approach a story.
Look at the story structure andfill in the fill in the pieces
of your Beat, story beats thatyou need to fill in, and all of

(32:42):
those things.
But that's what's so greatabout writing is that there are
so many different ways toapproach it.
You just have to be where thepitfalls of the way you do it
right.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
There are pitfalls on all of them another great MSG
quote there's no right way to doit, just an infinite number of
wrong ways.
Yeah, but but interesting thatyou should say that, because the
plotters and panthers thing isone where I mean it's worse than

(33:15):
Religion or politics.
It's like plotters will be like, how can you do that?
And panzers are like, oh, canyou possibly?
You know it's like it is.
They just literally can'tunderstand the other point of
view at all.
It's like you're you're, you'refrom that other sect.
You know that must be kickedout of the village.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
I even read something that a Stephen King putting
down Dean Coons, because DeanCoons used to be a platter.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Well, he's no longer a platter.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
And he's got much more wordy.
I'm gonna tell you.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
You know part of that .
This is the thing that is sohard and I'm sure you both have
been Encountered.
This is that I'll have anauthor that I love and I read
two or three books and I just soexcited to get the fourth book
and I'm like, yeah, by the fifthbook it's like, because they're
a cash cow, people are afraidto edit them.

(34:13):
So, pretty soon everything theywrite is the gods.
You know words from on high andPeople stop editing them.
And pretty soon you know theycan just go on and on and on for
a hundred pages and be like,really, this is totally
unnecessary, but people willstill buy the books.
Exactly what I know.

(34:35):
But it's really depressing tome.
I mean, the person still hasreally good chops, I mean
they're good at what they do andall they need is for somebody
to say, okay, that's enough,right there, let's cut out all
this extraneous fat.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, no, I hear you.
I mean talking about the headhopping, one of my favorite,
favorite, favorite authors, andI'm not going to name who this
author is, but traditionallypublished.
She has like 30 books in theseries that I read, plus like
two other series, three otherseries, and she head hops all
the time and I always notice itand I still read the books.
So there you go, right.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Right, right.
I think when a legacy writerhas their editor that's been
with them forever, then theirbooks will stay tight.
Like I met Anne Hillerman TonyHillerman's daughter at a
conference, we I'm a.
I read all of Tony Hillerman'sbooks when I was in high school

(35:34):
and I just love those books andAnne has taken over her dad's
series, pulled one of hischaracters and made that
character that the protagonistin and she said it was fabulous
because she got to work with herfather's editor and so it was
really.
You know, she was nervous asall get out, as you can imagine,

(35:57):
taking over a series like thatbut getting to work with his
editor.
That editor had worked in thatworld with those characters for
so many years.
He knew what the readersexpected, he knew what the
readers wanted and her booksthere's barely a blip.
I mean, it's definitely adifferent voice and a different

(36:20):
point of view.
But it's the world.
It's alive, it's the greatstories.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
I'm so excited you told me that or told us that
because I loved Tony Hillerman'sbooks and I read them all.
So now I'm excited aboutreading hers.
So that's very cool.
I mean.
What a gift to his fans, andnow I can't wait.
Yes, something I wanted to jumpback to is when we were talking
about acting and I bet you dothis, greta, but you probably do

(36:48):
too, megan, because you'reprobably, I'm probably not the
first person to tell you thatyou're such a performer, and I
know that from when you're doingyour classes is that I can't
believe people don't read theirdialogue out loud.
Yeah, I'm like how could younot?
How do you know if people wouldtalk like that if you don't say

(37:09):
it out loud?
I mean, or reading the wholebook.
Yes, steinbeck read every wordhe ever wrote.
He said he always readeverything out loud and it shows
but I mean especially dialoguepeople will be, they're writing
beautifully and then all of asudden, oh honey, remember when
we lived upstairs at that officewhere, above the office, where,

(37:32):
when you were in your thirdyear of graduate school and I
was really I mean, we don't talkto each other like that, it's
just we talk in shorthand andcode, and Partial sentences and
fragments, and yes, that's howdialogue works.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
I've never had anyone call me aperformer, though, so I'm very
excited.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
Thank you, I thought I would have been one of many
you know but you're one of thosepeople that a casting director
would go.
Oh, she's so lively, you know,and so sparkly and everything.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Well, thank you, I'm all flustered now.
I'm all cool yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Barkley, we got to get sequins for our outfits.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Next, time we talk, there we go yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Yeah, barkley.
Well, you guys are both sparkly, but Greta, I knew was coming
from that performing background.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Yeah, Ah, I can't help myself.
I know it's a funny thing, butwith the reading out loud thing
too, it's like I read to my doga lot because it feels funny to
just talk to myself, but nowshe's so old all she does is
snore.
I think I'm like, okay, so isit really boring dialogue or is

(38:42):
this just?
You know, the dog is just notinterested.
I'm learning to deal with therejection that you brought up
before you know.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
For Russell had to listen to this manuscript like
three times and I read it outloud to him.
I read it out loud to myself,but then I read it out loud to
him and then I had to read itout loud again.
And then I did the audiobookand I still found errors.
When I was literally recordingthe audiobook, I found two
errors Like how could that bepossible?

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Tell us a little bit more now about your memoir and
you know I mean I know it'sabout your honeymoon at sea and
then extended sailing trips.
That is your life quitehonestly, but tell us a little
bit more about how that came tobe and you know where it's going
and what you've got happeningwith that.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
Well, I had been writing it, you know, almost
since, almost since that year,and I mean I had, as I said, it
had taken little ideas andfleshed them out into stories
and I'd written, I'd gotten afew things published on cruising
world and sail.
I even sold a story about ourdog that we got, which is in
this book.
The beginning of our family wasour first dog that we got down

(39:55):
in Mexico, and I sold that storyto Dog Fancy magazine, which
was like so exciting to me atthe time because I'm totally a
dog person, and so I kept youknow that, you kept going.
And then when Ruslan did Sea ofCortez Review, which was a
collection, a yearly collection,of writing about Baja, and so I
was editing it and writing itand doing all of that, and so I

(40:18):
started thinking, yeah, this canwork.
You know, this is, the peopleare interested.
So the years went by, I wasspent 10 years at Sunbelt, then
I spent 10 years getting myfreelance and career working.
So 20 years goes by in a flash,as we know, and so about five
years ago I said I've got to getback to that, to that memoir.

(40:39):
People kept saying when are yougoing to write that memoir, you
know we've been telling you foryears and I thought, well, you
know, I know some agents now Iknow people in publishing and I
thought I should really get thisinto a stage that I could query
it.
So I went back and started, youknow, trying to flesh it out,
trying to, you know, expand itand trying to put all the little
pieces it's like trying to do ajigsaw puzzle without any

(41:02):
picture on the box.
So I was like I could start inthe present, go back to the then
I go here, then I go there, andI had written a memoir of my
year, my first year in New YorkCity, which had happened way
before, back in the early 80s,and basically my friends that
read it said, yeah, it's okay,but what's it about?

(41:23):
I mean, what's the point of it?
So I basically said, yeah,you're right, and I took
everything that happened in thatbook and condensed it down to
like a chapter in this book ortwo.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
And talk about killing your darlings on that
one.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Oh my God, you know there's so many things that I
still wish could live from thatbook, but there was a good point
to what they said, and so Ibasically found all of the
things that I want that I hadwritten about my childhood and
about my early life as an actorand about taking off on the boat
and about Russell and I and ouron again, off again

(42:00):
relationship and all the thingsthat had happened to us, and so
I had trained figure out howdoes this all fit together in
some mosaic that will make awonderful image, and so I did
that.
In when the pandemic happened,we were traveling, so there was,
we had a little bit more time,even though we both still work
from the boat, so I just keptgoing back to it.

(42:20):
And Jamie Attenberg do you guysknow Jamie Attenberg Kraft Talk
?
She does a thing called 1,000Words of Summer, every summer,
and it's basically she's now gota book coming out this fall
called 1,000 Words, which I'vealready read and loved and
reviewed.
It's on my site, which isbasically about aiming for that
1,000 Words a day and she doesit with a group of people that

(42:43):
are all over the world.
There's like 50,000 people nowthat do it every summer and it's
kind of like a nano-rymo, inthat you come together and
support each other and you geton to go, got my 1,000 Words, or
I almost did, but you know, andyou support each other and it's
just a wonderful community.
And I did that two differentsummers and worked on this book

(43:04):
and another book.
And so then out of the blue, Isaw this thing that a publisher
was looking for women's storiesand it was a new publisher in
Toronto and one of mygrandparents is from Mexico and
one of my grandparents is fromCanada and I thought wouldn't
this be funny to have this storyabout Mexico and my family be

(43:26):
published in Canada?
And I sent her the first 50pages that she asked for the
full.
And so then after that, youknow, I contacted her because I
hadn't heard anything and shesaid no, I want to publish it
and it should come out in August.
And I went what?
So it came out September 19th,which was amazing because you
know this happened in January.

(43:46):
So it was, but I had done somuch work on it.
And then that was what she said.
You know, it feels like it's soclean, like it could be just
copy edited, and I went oh no,but luckily she put me together
with a wonderful content editorand we had a great time and she,
you know, would tell me thingslike you know you should show,
don't tell.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
And you're like I tell people that all the time.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Isn't it astounding, though, just like you were
saying, megan, we know thesethings and yet you can still.
We had an argument, really,about what, what, how did it
feel?
Where were you, what did you do, what did it look like?
And so there were, there werequite a few of those, and she I
know you know this, Jennifer,but she was wonderful.

(44:32):
That was a great experience towork from the be on the other
side.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, well, and it's so funny Cause we just, we do,
we always need that extra pairof eyes, or the book coach, the
somebody, somebody who can pointout the things that we're just
not seeing, because there arethings that you just won't see.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
Absolutely.
There are times too it's justlaziness, Like you're writing
along and retired and you'rejust well.
I can explain what happened ina paragraph of exposition, or I
can turn this into a wholechapter with dialogue and
emotions, subscriptions andpeople moving and doing things,

(45:13):
and I'll go for the paragraph.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
And sometimes I mean there are times when, as an
editor, I will say this is awonderful scene and I love that
you made this come to life somuch, but it really just should
be a transitional paragraph andthey're like what?
I worked my ass off for thatand it's like you know.
But when you look at a bigpicture, sometimes there are
times when you just say we'vealready had too much of that, or

(45:39):
you're showing us and tellingus things we already know and so
it really should be.
And I there was a place likethat in the book where I had
like three chapters and it endedup being about three paragraphs
, because it was like the restof the summer was composed of
doing this, this, this and this.
Because she said you've been toall those places already,
you've shown those thingsalready and you've told us that

(46:00):
and you don't want it to feelrepetitive.
And I was like that sounds likesomething I would say yeah,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
But that is like what Megan said about having that
extra set of eyes, andespecially educated eyes, like
people who know what they'redoing.
Because sometimes you know,when you're a newer writer and
you don't have those otherauthors or editors or people in
your community and you just giveyour book to a friend or

(46:31):
somebody who enjoys reading, youget the funniest feedback Right
Like what my first book, whichwas terrible and never got
published.
I made the mistake of lettingmy cousin read it and she said
she goes well, couldn't you makeit more like born identity?
Now, what do you do with thatas a writer?

(46:52):
Wow, well, it's domesticsuspense and born identity as a
thriller.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
So no International thriller, international spy
thriller, right, but I thinkother than that they're very
similar.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Yes, I think her point was it was boring, but at
the time I wasn't developedenough as a writer to understand
and she didn't have the wordsRight.
You know what I mean?
I mean she was down on her.
She was just picking somethingshe liked and going.
Could you make it more likethat?

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Yeah, I remember an author I was working with once
and I read the book.
I really liked it and I saidbut I don't get this next door
neighbor.
I don't understand why thecharacter even exists because
you already have a best friendand the best friend can do
everything we need the neighborto do.
And the neighbor does like twothings.
They could easily be given toAndy or whatever the name of the

(47:46):
best friend was.
The person was just horrifiedand they said to me everyone
loves the neighbor, Everyone.
And I was just like, oh really,Because I'm everyone too, I'm
part of everyone.
And they were interesting andwhimsical, but they have nothing
to do with the rest of the book.

(48:06):
So, in other words, they hadheard oh, the neighbor is so
interesting because you keptmaking him more eccentric or
whatever it was, I can't evenremember now.
But so you have this eccentriccharacter, but it doesn't have
anything to do with the book.
So, unfortunately, talk aboutKill your Darling.
He had to literally kill anentire character.
But of course it made the Andyor whatever the name of the best

(48:29):
friend was more interestingbecause she was able to give
some of that to the person whoactually had a reason to be in
the book.
They were there for a realreason.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, and it is different, but it is difficult
when you're that you need thatextra eyes or even just distance
.
If you put your book down andyou don't read it for a while
and you go back, sometimes thenyou can even see it in your own
work.
But it is definitely harder tosee it in your own work.
But that is so exciting thatyour book is and is doing well,

(49:01):
right it's doing very well.

Speaker 3 (49:03):
We just got the Kirkus review and, though it
wasn't the rave I was hoping for, it was very, very good and
they really liked it a lot, andI've gotten all five-star
reviews so far.
So pinch me, and so we will see.
Right now, like I said, mypublisher is in Frankfurt at the

(49:25):
Book Fair and they're trying tosell rights, so that, of course
, would be pretty exciting.
She's really pushing for it.
I was totally surprised,because when you write a memoir,
the last thing you expectsomebody to say is this should
be a movie.
But people keep saying that andI'm like how is a memoir going
to be a movie?
And they're like well, look atMade, look at this, look at the
ones that are all on Netflix,and I'm oh right, gay pray love.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
I mean, it's the story of her journey and this is
the story of your journey, butyou see how you can be blind to
things when it's you.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
I mean to me, it was just like I did this thing.
It's just about me.
People I know will like it.
And I mean for me.
The other day just, I was atthe library here to do a talk
and I said how do I go aboutgetting the book onto the shelf?
I said, oh, it's already instock.
And he looked at it oh,somebody already checked it out.
I was like someone checked mybook out from the library.
I mean you know what I mean.

(50:18):
So you never know the thingsthat you're going to make an
author just like Flabbergasted.
But I was.
Yeah, total strangers arereading my book.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
It's great, it's great.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Which is exciting and terrifying at the same time,
exciting and terrifying.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
People keep saying I can't believe you're so
vulnerable and all the thing.
How brave you were to say allthat.
I'm like.
Apparently I just talk aboutvery scary stuff without even
thinking about it, because Inever even.
It never even occurred to me.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
That's just me.
And then, the more they tellyou you're vulnerable, you start
to think should.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
I have written that chapter.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Oh my gosh, oh my gosh.
That is really something, andit had to have been really an
interesting to be on the otherend of it.
Like you said, instead of beingthe content editor, now you are
working with the content editor.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
And it was wonderful.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
So do you think that has made you an even better
content editor for other people?

Speaker 3 (51:21):
I hope so, but I think that it really was funny
that nine out of 10 things shewould say.
She would say I know, you knowthis.
And I'd be like, yeah, I do,especially once you've said it's
so obvious.
But how many times have we allsaid this?
You look at your own stuff andnine times out of 10, it's stuff

(51:42):
that you can fill in the blanks.
Oh, I didn't say that we were inthe little town of Loretto that
only had 7,000 people and itwas the site of the first
cathedral in Baja California.
But I know that Doesn'teveryone.
I mean, I'm just using anexample of something that's not
in the book, but I mean thatcould have been Like I knew it,

(52:02):
so I don't bring it up, orsomething about voting.
And she would say, like you'renot explaining this at all, and
I'm like wait, you don't knowwhat a hellyard is.
How does someone not know that?
Well, maybe I didn't 35 yearsago, but I've been sailing for
35 years now we're actually.
We left on that first tripafter six months after we got

(52:23):
married, and we'll be married 35years in May, so and we're
still living on a boat.
So the honeymoon continues, asthe saying goes.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Did you ever come back to land to live?
We did very briefly.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Yeah, we did very briefly.
We came back on the little boat.
So I consider being on land tobe in a marina on the boat.
But in terms of actually livingin a house, we did that very
briefly when my mom was goingthrough dementia and I hope
Greta, it had to listen to my,to my whoa.

(52:57):
I seem to recall a few minutes.
You know that summer that youwere coming out with your seven
deadly sins, third book.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, butat any rate and I was just
saying, my God, how can I go onwith life, it's just crazy too
much to do and you know, havinga full time job and being a

(53:17):
caretaker is super hard.
But so, yeah, so we were livingin the house, which was the
only way to do it, because shecouldn't live on a boat, she
could barely live in a house.
So and then gradually, you know, that house became ours and all
of us kids sold it and we wereable to go back to our boat.
So that worked out.

(53:37):
But yeah, there have been sometimes in there that we've lived
on land for six months here orthere, but it's basically like
32 years out of 35 years spenton a boat.
So it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
So cool they're like crazy.
So it is Crazy, but cool andvery different.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Well, and I think that's the hook for a movie, and
maybe we will all get to go tothe premiere together.
That would be so exciting, butthat would be the hook for a
movie, because I think that isan unusual lifestyle and one
that a lot of people likefantasize about.
Like wouldn't it be cool?

Speaker 3 (54:13):
But then they don't do it, you know for whatever
reason so oddly enough, speakingof editors, years ago, maybe 10
years ago, I was at theconference and I was talking to
Marla Miller, who you guys know,and I was talking to her, she
had read some pieces of thememoir and like them, and she

(54:33):
said, oh, you should enter thisin this contest.
That was for people of acertain age, you know, like they
were looking for people over 55or something you know to write.
And so I wrote the opening,what is now the prologue of the
book, for this thing.
And she said, oh, this would bea great way to get them
interested and then they'll see,they want to see the rest of

(54:55):
the book if they're interested,which they weren't.
And that was fine, it went on.
But she later said you know,don't lose that, because when
people that'll make it much moreof a hook than if you start in
1989, you know, because thenyou'll have to tell so much
backstory.
And I was like, ok, and so ofcourse I rewrote it and rewrote

(55:16):
it, and rewrote it.
And when Rebecca Eckler, whoruns Rebooks, and her and Deanna
McFadden are my editor, both ofthem I was like, do you think,
you know, should we keep theprologue that starts in the
present time they were like, oh,I wouldn't change that, no,
absolutely we want that.
And their big push as far asmarketing is they still live on

(55:39):
a boat, they still are together.
So that I think we're.
One thing is that I think peopleare so tired of every.
Good book has to be reallydepressing and angst filled and
be full of dysfunction andhorror and trauma, and I mean
all those things are real andthey're perfectly valid.

(55:59):
And of course, I've read lotsof great depressing books.
But it's kind of nice to pickup a book and go, oh, they're
still happy together.
Now I wonder how it started.
Oh good, she's going back intime now and that's just so.
You know it's going to be OK,and I think that that's one of
the things that I think peoplehave responded to a lot.
You know, like we maybe need ahappy story about a happy

(56:21):
marriage in some crazy peoplethat went off to see the wizard.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
I totally.
I've gotten so that I just if abook starts to go down certain
roads that depress me, I'm like,I can be beautifully written, I
can be lauded, I can win awards.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
And.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
I don't care if this is entertainment.
This doesn't entertain me, soam I there?
Yeah, and in fact like theGlass Castle which is a memoir
that I loved.
The only reason I loved it wasbecause it started when you knew
she grew up and had a life, soI could get through her horrible
childhood, because I knew itwas going to end happily.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
Otherwise I never would have read the book and I
think even Eat Pray Love,because it starts at such a dark
point.
But having read the Dust Jacket, I know she goes to Italy and
India, in Bali, so I'm like, ok,I'm in it for the cool places.
Of course, it ended up being agreat book beyond a travelogue,
but it was one of the books thatinfluenced me very much, along
with Cheryl Straits Wild, youknow, in terms of jumping back

(57:26):
and forth in chronological time,and I had worked with Leslie
Johansson-Nack for who Wrote 14,which was also a book about
sailing but also has a lot ofjumping back and forth in time,
and I thought it made it so muchmore interesting book and so I
wanted to do it.
I just didn't know if I coulddo it well, but apparently,

(57:47):
apparently it worked, apparently.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
I'm excited to read the book.
I'm not generally a memoirreader, but I find this and it
does.
It comes down largely to thelifestyle and the journey there,
but I find it fascinating.
I'm excited to read it.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
So excited to have you read it too.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
So, because we're moving toward the top of the
hour, I don't want to stopwithout asking you this question
.
Actually, we probably passedthe top of the hour because it's
just so fun to talk to you.
Can you just, as your littleparting shot, give some of our
listeners what would you say isyour top three tips and advice?

(58:35):
Whether they're writing amemoir or a novel, what would
you really recommend that theydo and don't overlook?

Speaker 3 (58:48):
One of them we've already talked about, which is
keep rewriting and make readingout loud a major artifact,
because every time you read itout loud again, you will be more
likely to hear those thingsthat are clunky and that are
obvious or that no human beingever spoke these words in this

(59:09):
way, those things will reallyjump out at you when you're
reading out loud.
And Gail Carline, who's awonderful, as you guys know,
wonderful writer, she reads outloud, she records it and then
she reads it, listens to it,with the printout, so that she
can sit there and mark down thethings that are clunky, which I

(59:29):
think is a great process.
Not, you know, I didn't do that.
I mean, I made notes, but likeon a piece of paper, as I read
it out loud and, as I said, likedid it four times or five times
, twice with an audience, threetimes on my own, and then did
the audiobook and still foundthings that I thought how did I

(59:50):
miss that?
So, yeah, the other thing isfind your people, find your
tribe, whether it's at theSouthern California Writers
Conference, whether it's at theOC Writers or Southern
California Writers Association,or you guys can probably list
more than I know, but there areso many great groups Sandy, the

(01:00:11):
Writers Inc.
Where there are classes, thereare meetings to get together and
share the woes and the highsand the lows and to get that
feedback from people who get it,who get what you're doing and
can support you.
And those people become yourbeta readers, those people that
you end up hanging out with atthe bar at two in the morning or

(01:00:31):
in the morning before anybodyelse is up, drinking coffee
before the big day of aconference or a group or a
Writers group.
If you can get your own Writersgroup together, I always say I
was working in an office and Isaid, see, I want to be in a
Writers group.
And my friend I was at lunchwith said so do I?
And I went.
I don't even know you're awriter, and so we went back to

(01:00:52):
the office and she pulledsomething out of her desk and I
went oh my god, you are a writer.
We just literally she invitedher friend, I invited my mom,
who's a wonderful writer, andshe invited somebody.
So we basically had the samesix to seven to eight people for
like 15 years now.
So that's been a huge help.
So, in other words, find yourpeople who will support you, who

(01:01:14):
will read your stuff, who willgive you no BS feedback, because
nobody needs to be told it'sgood, I liked it.
That's not helpful to anybody,because what they're really
saying is I love you and that'snice, but it's not helpful.
You want to hear it Now.
You want to give to somebodywho's not going to just say that
to you.

(01:01:35):
And the other thing is Go foryour wildest dreams.
Take whatever small step youcan take today.
Maybe it's listening to thispodcast and saying, oh, I
understand those things theywere talking about.
I can relate to that, or I getthat.
I get, I had an aha moment, orat least, yeah, I know what

(01:01:56):
they're talking about.
I really am a writer.
And start calling yourself thatand go for it because you can
do it.
I mean, we've done it and we'veseen hundreds of people do it,
and with those other tools inyour in your tool belt, you can
do it too.
So take your first step.
You know, take a class, listento podcasts, ask questions, find

(01:02:21):
your group, and, and and go forit, because you can do it.
You got this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
It's like encouragement.
I know I feel like going onwriting.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Absolutely All right.
Well, I do think we need toprobably end it there.
So one last thing, jennifer whydon't you tell us where people
can find out more about you,about your book, about your
editing services and all thethings online?

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Sure, you can find me at wwwjennyredbugcom.
Jenny, just J-E-N-N-Y redbug,r-e-d-b-u-s-e-n-n-y, r-e-u-g,
and it there's years of bloggingthere, as well as how to get in
touch with me, why I'm calledJenny Redbug, what I do, my

(01:03:08):
email, how to get in touch withme.
Like I said, I'm also bloggingat Substack now.
So Substack is a newsletter.
So if you go to Substack, youcan look for Honeymoon at sea or
you can just Google Honeymoonat sea.
It's luckily a very unusual ifyou, you know, if you just
Google those three words, itpretty much will come up with my
book or my Substack prettyquickly and the book is

(01:03:30):
available everywhere you buyfine books.
You can, of course, online orbookshoporg or you know who
online, but please ask for it atyour local bookstore or your
favorite bookstore and thatwould be a great favor to me and
my small publisher awoman-owned publisher who's a
small business, so you cansupport her and her business and

(01:03:53):
my book and also a smallbookstore.
So it's a trio of triumphs,good deal.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much,jennifer.
We were thrilled to have youhere today.
It's always a greatconversation and we'll look
forward to seeing you, hopefullyat the next conference or some
other time soon, but absolutelyyou will.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
I will be at the conference in February in San
Diego.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Oh great.
So I'm going to be one of thespeakers.
Awesome, all right, awesome,awesome.
Good For all our listeners outthere.
If you haven't alreadysubscribed to the author wheel
on your favorite podcast player,make sure you go and do that.
We've been releasing BetweenySoads, which apparently Joanna

(01:04:40):
Penn coined that term, butlittle short tips and tricks for
NaNoWriMo in the prep leadingup to November the actual
writing process, and then Ithink we're going to get into
some editing tips down the roadtoo.
So make sure you subscribe soyou don't miss anything.
You can also drop by our brandnew website at authorwheelcom

(01:05:05):
same URL, just we changedplatforms.
And while you're there, you cansign up for our free email
course Seven Days to Clarity,uncover your author purpose and,
until next week, keep yourstories rolling.

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