December 4, 2023 • 48 mins
The art of blurbs, navigating Amazon Ads, and seeking help . . .
Writing is a lonely craft, but it doesn't have to be. In this week's episode, Bryan Cohen gets candid about the necessity of help-seeking in the author space, sharing personal stories of how collaboration and networking transformed his business. He opens up about his personal journey, the lessons he learned, and his secret sauce for sustaining successful ventures.
Bryan Cohen is the founder of Author Ad School, Best Page Forward, and the Author Ad Agency. He's also the co-host of The Sell More Books Show podcast which just finished its 500th consecutive week!
Whether you're a novice in the publishing world or a seasoned author, the insights from this episode can be the game changer you've been waiting for.
Question of the Week: How have you incorporated feedback and outside help into your author business?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to the Author Wheel podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery Thriller.
Author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author, and togetherwe are the Author Wheel.
This week we are excited to betalking with Amazon ads and
blurb writing guru, brian Cohen.
It's been a big goal to havehim on the show, so we're
excited to talk with him andhave you hear what he has to say
(00:28):
about all things copywritingand ads and business.
But before we get into that,greta tell me what's been going
on.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Well, I don't have a lot to say because I've been
kind of focused on redoing thehouse my husband painted the
entire downstairs andrearranging furniture and
getting new art and blah, blah,blah and trying to get it done
so that I can actually put thetree up, so getting ready for
Christmas and shopping and allof the craziness that goes with
(01:01):
the holidays.
I will say, though, I juststarted yesterday kind of
getting organized and my sevendeadly revamp, you know, taking
that series and revamping it,yeah, and which I think might be
interesting for listeners tokind of go with me on that
journey, because it's sort of abig deal taking an old series
(01:21):
and giving it an entirely new,giving it a facelift, you know.
Anyway, so back in season one,episode seven, sarah Rosette.
We talked to her about her bookon how to write a series.
She's pretty brilliant and sheuses Trello, which is actually a
(01:45):
free app.
I'm sure there's a paid versionthat I'm only using the free
app.
That's very interesting becauseyou can create boards and lists
within the boards and it's kindof a cool organizational tool.
It is not made for writers, forwriting, it's made for business
in general, I think, but sheuses it to plan series, and so I
(02:09):
decided to give it a whirl andit's really working well.
I'm super excited about it.
That's great, yeah, so I thinkshe talks about it a bit more in
season one, episode seven.
So for listeners who areinterested, give that season a
listen and jump on over toTrello and give it a look, see
(02:29):
what you think.
So, anyway, that's all I'mdoing.
What are you up to?
I think much more than me.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, I've been kind of run around like a chicken
with my head cut off, to betotally honest.
But that's okay, I kind of likeit that way.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
That's sort of our MO in life.
Anyway, I wouldn't know you ifyou had your head on.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I mean right, yeah.
But so the big thing that I'vebeen working on has been the new
Clarify, Simplify, ImplementSubstack Newsletter.
So if you haven't gone andchecked that out yet, please do
it's.
I have, I think.
As of this recording, I wannasay there are four articles up
(03:12):
now and I have a whole long listof more to come for December.
I'm gonna be focusing a lot onsort of reflecting on the year
and how to plan for 2024.
So kind of all that likestrategy planning, good stuff.
(03:32):
But if you're interested in mytake on the writing and
publishing industry, it is afree subscription.
You can also opt into the paidversions of that and support me
and the author wheel andeverything we're doing.
I set up the tiers so far as $5a month or $50 a year, so it's
(03:58):
basically buy us a coffee.
That's all good.
Other than that, I'm stillwriting fiction every morning.
I've kept up that habit, keptup the consistency.
Even during Thanksgiving andour Vegas trip I managed to get
at least a few words a day.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, yeah, except one of those days was in Vegas.
I literally wrote 16, one, sixwords, but I counted it, I
counted it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But the fact that you were awake and cognizant, based
on some of the evenings we hadin Vegas, I think that's quite
an accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
So Well, thank you, thank you, me too, I mean.
And I kept a streak alive and Ithink that's kind of the
important thing right now for meis just keeping up that
consistency in those daily wins.
So that's been good.
Go you, Thank you.
Thank you All right.
Well, I think there's nothingelse to report this week, so
(04:57):
let's get on with the interview.
Brian is the founder of AuthorAd School, Best Page Forward and
the Author Ad Agency.
He's also the co-host of theSelmaur Books Show podcast,
which just finished its 500consecutive week, which is mind
blowing.
It's staggering Knowing now,knowing, how much work goes into
(05:18):
each of these episodes.
The fact that you've nevermissed a week is just mind
blowing.
So congratulations.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Thank you, kind of makes me want to take a nap, oh
yeah, yeah, I'll send a pillow,I'll send something.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Thank you Well welcome.
We're really excited to haveyou here today.
Thank you for joining us.
This is cool.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah, I'm really happy.
I'm really happy to be herey'all.
Thanks for having me on let'sparty.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Absolutely All right.
Well, I have been listening tothe Selmaur Books Show for years
.
I think you know that you wereone of my early inspirations to
actually treat this like abusiness, so that was cool.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, nice, so we're excited.
I would definitely say you areone of my virtual mentors.
You may not have realized it,but I definitely followed so
much of your advice and I'vedone the not Author Ad School,
but the five day challenge, andI've taken so many of your
workshops.
I have book blurbs.
I mean I feel like listeners,you need to hold onto your hats.
(06:21):
We have so many things we cantalk to Brian about today.
Get out of pencil and takenotes.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, absolutely so, brian.
Why don't you start?
We'll start with our genericquestions and then, as usual,
we'll go off on all of ourlittle tangents here.
But what is your writing andpublishing story?
How did you get to be the BrianCohen?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, well, I started with ablog 2008 or so.
I will admit to being on a tempassignment working the phones
for some kind of company I don'teven know what it did and I've
been wanting to start a blog fora long time and I was like,
(07:07):
well, no one's calling.
It was the week beforeChristmas, no one was calling
and I was like, fine, I'll startmy blog now.
And so I got paid like 40 hoursthat week.
To you know, someone from thatcompany is going to track me
down at some point.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, we won't name names.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, we won't name names.
I can't even remember the name,but I worked about 40 hours
that week on setting up my blog.
It was nice to get paid forthat, and those blog posts that
I wrote over the next couple ofyears ended up being my first
book in 2010.
Wow, wow, yeah.
So, like dozens and dozens ofposts, I just had to fill it out
(07:45):
a little bit, flesh it out alittle bit to get to 1000
creative writing prompts,because it was a creative
writing blog and I, you know, Ididn't really expect to become
an author from that.
I was just trying to helpwriters, which, of course, you
know has followed me for thelast 13 years.
(08:05):
Since then, in 2010, Ipublished it.
Kdp wasn't even called KDP yet.
It was like Amazon publishingservices or something.
And create space?
Was it create space back then?
Well, there was create space.
This shows my age in theindustry.
Create space was not yet ownedby Amazon.
(08:26):
Yeah, it was just a company inCharleston, south Carolina.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's how I used to.
I used to print my.
My paperbacks was throughcreate space before Amazon
bought them.
So yeah, we're old school.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I can barely stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I had one book in create space too.
That's right, it's old schoolhere.
Anyway continue, brian.
We interrupted.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
No worries.
So I really liked the process.
I mean, a lot of us, I think,have fallen in love with the
publishing, publishing processat this point and I really
wanted to keep doing that.
But I also, you know, I couldsee thousands and thousands of
authors were getting into thiswhole thing and I I really like
(09:11):
helping people.
I I always enjoyed writingfiction, but I never got the
full satisfaction out ofentertaining readers that I did
out of helping authors.
And so over over these last 13years since I published that
book, I I've published a bunchof them, several dozen, most of
(09:32):
them being four writers eitherwriting prompts or later later
in my career, about ads andemail, marketing and and other
wonderful stuff.
And honestly, to this point,it's like now, most of the
writing I do, I write webinars,I write, you know, the training
(09:52):
that I do for people a lot of itfor free, which is awesome.
The emails that go out to peopleI get just like it's crazy, we
were all at, you know, 20 booksand I get amazed by the people
who reach out to me and say,like you know, hey, I've been,
(10:12):
I've been reading your emailsfor six years or something like
that and and I'm like I don'tknow who you are and that's just
so cool that you you read thisall the time and it's kind of
fun.
It's like I put a lot of workinto the emails, I put a lot of
work into the webinars and it'sfun that just like hundreds or
(10:33):
thousands of people are checkingout each one and some of them
might never like work with me inany capacity, but it's really
cool to have my writing reachthose people, even if you know
they didn't pay a dime.
They didn't, they didn'tpurchase anything.
I'm just really happy to hey,like, like you said, grant, I'd
(10:56):
be kind of that, a silent mentorfrom from across across the
country, and it's just reallyawesome to have that opportunity
.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, it's kind of my this whole writing thing,
whether it's fiction ornonfiction, whatever.
It is kind of mind blowing to,to to think that these people
you've never met, probably willnever meet thousands of them.
You're Vulcan mind melding withthem on something and they're
like in your head and it's justthis one of the things.
(11:28):
I know this is a completetangent, but just throwing it
out there, it's one of thethings about writing that I love
and also scares me, is it?
Just really kind of mindblowing that, that, that, that
happens.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it's so interesting to
that like as a I'm going to saywriting mentor that you are,
you're able to reach thosepeople and help people.
Whether or not you know it,you're helping people and that's
so key and that's so that'sbecoming more and more a part of
my, you know, philosophy, orwhat I'm really enjoying as well
(12:02):
, is this idea of like withreaders.
You're entertaining them and itcan be helpful, it can give
them that escape and I've alwaysenjoyed that.
But now, to have more directimpact on writers, where you're
influencing their day to daylife and their activity and how
they're approaching their work,I don't know.
(12:23):
That's really satisfying, it'sreally cool.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, absolutely Well and I will say too so I have
sizzling synopsis, your book onhow to write a sizzling synopsis
.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I read it almost every single time I write my
book.
Blurb I read it.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I mean, maybe not cover to cover.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
But I'm like, okay, what did he say about this?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
again Like oh yeah, and I have your more recent one
on email marketing andnewsletters and I did your ad
school and I will say that ofall of the virtual writing gurus
will call them that are out,there.
I really find your work veryactionable and very approachable
(13:08):
.
You know people you canactually like dig in and it's
useful in the moment and it'swonderful that way.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yes, absolutely, you're so welcome.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
So the next question that we always ask is what has
been your greatest roadblock andhow did you overcome that to
get where you are?
So what would like strugglething?
What did you just have to likedeal with?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean I needed, I needed help, I needed, I needed,
I had so many ideas.
I still have so many ideas.
You know, if you're if you're aClifton strengths beckasim fan,
I'm number one strategic and Iknow a lot of authors are high
strategic and so I'm alwayscoming up with ideas and plans.
(13:59):
And I think my ability to helpauthors really grew when I when
I got help and virtual help, gotgot assistance, got got people
who were really interested in insupporting kind of the, the
idea I had, the vision I had forthings like ad school, because
(14:26):
I definitely tried to do it allon my own At first I tried to
make it not just self publishing, self marketing, self self
coursing, self, everything, andit was just too much.
And I think my heart was in theright place because everything I
was trying to do was in theservice of helping people but I
(14:50):
could not possibly deliver asmuch as I wanted to.
But until I got some help and Iknow that a lot of authors out
there are towards the beginningof their journey and might not
be able to afford help but eventhere our way is to get free
help Beta readers and critiquegroups and and masterminds that
(15:17):
that you can just set up.
You don't have to pay somebodyfor like these kinds of things.
Like I told the story a milliontimes on a million different
podcasts and now you get it too.
Best page forward writing thebook blurbs was all an idea that
came from a mastermind that wassomewhat run by Simon Whistler,
(15:42):
the self rocking, selfpublishing podcast from
yesteryear.
Now he's a big YouTube star.
But connecting with others andnot just trying to do it all on
my own was probably one of thebest things I did for my writing
and my, my business and yoursanity probably as well.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And my sanity, yes, yes, and your head of hair, all
of those things, yeah, thatthat's been kind of a
reoccurring theme for a lot ofthe people that we've
interviewed Is that you can goalong so far on your own and
then if you want to grow, youcan't do it all on your own
(16:29):
anymore.
You've got to get.
You got to get that help and Iwould argue, even in the very
beginning at least, like yousaid, the virtual help, like the
help if you don't have themoney to pay for it.
Like you have so many fabulousfree things, like your five day
ad challenge.
I mean it's like it's like afull course.
So you have all those videos inthere and you know it was, I
(16:53):
thought it was terrific.
And and then people have a lotof books out for authors that
are reasonable.
You know that's not veryexpensive and all those things.
That is a good, a good bit ofadvice.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
So so quick question on that.
Specifically how did youactually make the decision when
it came to hiring someone?
How, what was the tipping pointor what was the trigger that
actually had you going?
You know what I can hiresomeone.
I'm going to hire someone.
This is going to increase mybusiness, or how did you make
(17:29):
that decision?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think it was out of desperation.
I think I was so so, overload,overloaded.
Every time that I made majorhiring decisions in my business,
it was due to overwhelm.
Yeah, and I probably shouldhave done it months earlier, and
I think that's true for a lotof authors who are overwhelmed.
But.
(17:51):
But the problem is here's thebig problem If you are hiring
when you are overwhelmed andoverloaded, you might hire
someone good, might hire someonebad, but sure as heck your
hiring process will be rushed.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, so you've got to Every time I've had need on
my team.
Now, if my my person I spendthe most time with on a regular
basis, that isn't isn't my wife,which is Charlene.
Charlene is my kind of my COO,if you will, and she is always
(18:34):
like we need someone.
We better get this person quick.
I'm like we got to slow ourroll here because we need to try
to pick the right person andthen you can set up a good
process and it can still notwork.
But what I have found is thebest process for finding someone
good is sometimes having themwork for you for a while and
(18:59):
then you see that they have morein them.
Several people like the youknow, those of you who know ad
school like Megan, like Quinn,who does our Friday marketing
sprints and who is now one ofour author ad agency account
managers.
They started as a student andthen a volunteer and then they
became a six figure author andthe things that Quinn achieved
(19:26):
and then Quinn wanting to helpother authors, just like we all
do, like seeing that, made merealize oh, you know, quinn is
awesome.
I'm going to stick with Quinnfor as long as they'll stick
with me, and I think that seeingwhat people do over time is the
(19:47):
greatest indicator of whetheror not they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
They're going to be solid for you, which goes back
to your point about time and notrushing things, because you, in
order to build thoserelationships, you have to
network, you have to try thingsout, you have to start slow,
start small and let that grownaturally.
It's hard to do, so it is.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, so, hard.
But, patience is the best thing.
Patience isn't easy.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
No, no, especially in our industry.
But it is a virtue.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, I think.
I think what happens sometimestoo is we get this sense of FOMO
, you know, like if we don't dothis thing, whatever the thing
is, and it has to happen now,because if we don't do it now,
you know we're going to miss theboat or something like that.
And then we, you know, raceahead to do something.
And, honestly, I think one ofthe things I really love about
(20:47):
the Selma book show and thethings that I've read from you
and your philosophy is, I feellike it's more like no, let's
build something sustainable, notjump on the next huge fast
trend.
It's like do ads work overnight?
No, because do you know whatyou're doing overnight?
(21:08):
No, you know.
I mean, everything has aprogression.
And this idea that you're goingto race into something, throw a
bunch of money at something ortime at something, and somehow
it's going to blow your careerup, because XYZ author blew up
their career with one book, youknow where.
Everybody's looking for thatquick fix.
(21:29):
And I think that is.
It's dangerous.
It's a good way to waste a lotof time and money and make
mistakes.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's the sustainability that mean.
You said the big buzzword rightthere Something sustainable.
It's not something a lot of usare looking for, but it might be
what all of us need.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, so okay, so you've decided you need to hire
someone.
You've decided you know youneed to delegate, you need to
expand your mindset so that youcan find the person.
You're building that network.
How do you actually do that?
It's not easy.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I mean, I think a good pool of people is sometimes
your own readers and your ownfans.
Sometimes there's someone inthe mix that that's a good fit.
I found a lot of people on myteam from students and readers
and whatnot, and then you wantto see them do a lot of things.
You do see them do a little bitof work.
(22:38):
You want to see that they'llactually follow through on
something, and so I like to giveapplicants a sample task to see
if they do things the kind ofway I want to like.
But even then you still don'tknow.
You have to be patient.
You have to assume that even ifyou put in the effort, you put
(22:59):
in all the effort to hire theright person, it still might not
work out.
But I remember one of my bestproject managers.
She ended up being someone whoapplied and I kind of wasn't
sure.
But I ended up hiring them forkind of just like a lesser role
(23:20):
and they just were so great overtime and it goes back to well,
let's see how this person doesover time to see if they're the
right kind of person.
But hiring is definitely a pain.
Hiring is hard and if you makeit a process rather than a panic
(23:42):
, it is more likely to work.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So a lot of our listeners are probably newer
writers kind of coming out ofthe box, and so what would you
like if you were going to givethem some of your best?
Because now we've kind of likesegwayed into hiring virtual
assistants and stuff and they'renot probably the vast majority
of them.
They're not there, but thatdoesn't mean they don't need
(24:11):
help, they do.
So what would be some of yourbest tips or advice that you
would give to newer writers,like maybe even looking back on
your own career and saying Iwish I had done this sooner
instead of waiting until I wasdesperate or in a panic or in a
bloody mess, you know?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean.
My best tip is to be malleableis to be open to other people's
ideas.
The stubborn people sinkStubborn people sink.
If you're too stuck into yourown ideas, you're not really
going to work well with others,first and foremost, but you're
(24:55):
also just unlikely to hearfeedback.
That could be extremelybeneficial.
I love now working with my teambecause they'll tell me if I'm
wrong.
That's perfect.
They'll save me time fromscrewing something up, and I
(25:16):
think that every time you hearthat you're not doing something,
the way that's going to helpyou succeed and every time you
listen to that you get a littlebetter.
Every time you don't listen tothat, you get stuck deeper into
the mud.
And I think that because nowthis is such a long game, it's
(25:41):
going to take most authorsseveral years to really get
traction.
If you get stuck in your ownvacuum, that you're marketing in
a vacuum, you're writing in avacuum, you don't get any
feedback in any point of theprocess.
(26:01):
You are going to bedisappointed in your results.
So I think being malleable andbeing open to feedback is
essential, whether you're evenin just in a critique group or
you're with other authors or youpost in a group.
(26:23):
The worst feeling is you seesomeone post in a group
requesting feedback and we'veall seen it and then you can
tell that the person is notgoing to take any of it because
they really just wanted to bevalidated and have people tell
them their ideas are amazingwhich I get psychologically, but
(26:48):
it's not going to help you.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I was at a little writer's meeting in a coffee
shop not that long ago and therewas a woman there who had one
book published.
She couldn't figure out why itwasn't selling.
And then she started talkingabout the publishing journey and
how she hired two differenteditors that had really good
(27:12):
backgrounds and it worked withlots of people and she was like
but they were just wrong.
They were telling her to fixher book and they were just
wrong.
So she fired them and then hercover was awful, awful.
And one of the women thereworks with her cover designer
and said, oh, that coverdesigner won't work with her
anymore because she forced herto make something that she was
(27:35):
embarrassed of it.
So it's exactly what you'retalking about.
She had such a no, I know whatmy cover should look like.
It's the worst cover you'veever seen in your life, or I
know how it should be edited,but it's your first book and
you're firing professionals whoare trying to help you.
So I definitely seen that.
(27:56):
I couldn't agree more.
It takes a little humility andbeing willing to hear the hard
word.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
You need to come into this with a beginner mindset,
not an expert mindset.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, and I think that's true, even when you are
farther along in your career, itdoesn't really matter how long
you've been doing it.
There's always something toimprove on and there's always
something that other people willknow or do or be better at than
you are.
So part of it is filtering whothose people are and the correct
(28:31):
advice to take.
Because, it's true, youshouldn't listen to your great
aunt Helen who thinks that yourthriller should be less or just
should be cozier.
Right, that's not necessarilythe best advice, but if you're
hiring a professional to giveyou critique and they're saying,
(28:51):
well, you've got a plot holehere, you got to fill this in,
that advice is probably good.
So, understanding thatfiltering process and then
taking the good advice yeah, nomatter where you are in the
career, in your stage, because Ithink the best authors always
take criticism to heart if it'sappropriate criticism.
(29:16):
And when they don't, or whenthey don't get that feedback
anymore, big name authors remainunnamed, who have big
traditional deals and theireditors are afraid to edit them
anymore.
And all of a sudden you'regoing.
Really, I think that needed alittle extra work on that most
recent release.
(29:37):
So just something to keep inmind.
For sure is just that we allneed it.
We all need to be open-mindedand we all need to be willing to
hear the criticism which is sopainful.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So painful.
Yeah, it's awful.
When I first started publishing, I would see my editor's email
come and I'd be like I'm notgoing to open it.
It would take me like 24 hoursto build myself up to open it,
because I knew it was going tobe like oh my gosh, I don't want
(30:13):
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, to this day, when I do get feedback from
anybody about anything, I readit and then I don't do anything
about it.
I set a mental time limit.
I cannot act on it or shoutabout it or cry.
I read it and I close it and Iwalk away for at least 24 hours
before I take action, because ittakes that time to get past my
(30:37):
own ego and my own struggles ormy immediate knee-jerk reaction.
They're wrong.
No, no, you just got to take amoment, take a breath and then
get back to it after that,because it is emotional.
We work in a very emotionalindustry.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Yeah, that's for sure , that is for sure.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So why don't you tell us a little bit more about your
author ad agency and how youcan be hired to help authors
with their advertising Sure?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
So this is something we started late 2022.
And we really wanted to helpauthors who are at a higher
level.
We have all the three wonderfulstuff for new folks and for
(31:36):
folks who are learning themarketing.
We have ad school and somecoaching options for people who
are trying to go higher.
But then people who are alreadyhaving great success but have
no time.
What do they do?
We started this author ad agencyto run Amazon ads for authors
(31:57):
who are already having somesuccess.
They're earning $6,000 a monthin royalties or higher, because
we have to charge a fair bit forour services and we don't want
to take all of somebody'sroyalties in order to pay for
something.
So we have that kind of cap inthere.
(32:18):
It's been really great.
We have a couple of people whojust have had these amazing
months or these amazing launches, and we know that they were so
busy in the writing and themarketing process that there is
(32:39):
no way they would have been ableto hit those numbers without
that assistance, without someonein there making the ads,
without someone in therecontributing to the number of
eyeballs on those books.
We have spaces open.
We have some spaces open.
Basically, people can justemail us and we can set up a
(33:05):
meeting.
We don't have anything too fancy, just email us at Brian at
sellingforauthorscom Cause, youknow, we don't even really have
a page for it because it's justnot, there's not so many authors
who find out about it or atthat royalty amount.
But we've really loved theability to kind of help people,
(33:29):
no matter where they are, and tobe able to do that and see
people.
I mean, some of our agencyclients are people who joined
the free course years ago andwe're able to use that
information to help them towrite the books they needed to
write in order to see somereally great numbers and we even
(33:51):
like full circle kind of momentAuthors a lot of authors, you
know when they're first thinkingabout writing, they want to get
the Trad Pub deal.
They maybe don't know anybetter or something.
That's me.
Yeah, we've all been there.
They want to get the Trad Pubdeal.
(34:13):
And we just had a client who'sbeen self publishing since 2015
and she's had such great successwith her books and after Ad
School, after success on TikTokand after the agency that she
just was in a bidding war with anew series and got picked up by
(34:36):
Penguin Random House.
That's amazing.
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So like just be able to help someone to realize that
dream.
And she's going to keep writingindie for her other stuff, so
she's not.
We didn't turn her to the darkside or anything.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Oh, we're agnostic over here.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I actually yeah.
I am hybrid and I love the ideaand the concept of being hybrid
, you know, because that isanother way of getting help.
Yeah, that's what we weretalking about.
I mean, you have to pay forhelp one way or another.
So maybe you pay for some ofyour help, you pay for it with
royalties.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, no great point.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
But I think that's what I find so lovely about your
ecosystem that you've developedover the years is that you did
kind of start out with you knowsome of the free or less
expensive options and you'vegrown along with your clients so
that now you have this reallynice vertical stack of you know.
Wherever you are in yourbusiness right now, there's
(35:41):
something that you can offer tohelp those authors get to that
next level.
So whether you're starting outwith the you know the five day
challenge and then buying thebook and then buying the course
and then moving your way up,each level kind of gets you that
next to that next stage, whichI think is just from a
(36:02):
nonfiction author servicesperspective, it's brilliant,
obviously.
But from a you know, customerperspective, I think it's also
brilliant just because there'salways you can build that
relationship.
You can see that full circleloop as people go through your
information and get to the pointthat you know now you are, you
(36:26):
are their outsource.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Right, yeah, late last year we did try to make the
whole staff possible, becausenow after AdSchool there's
one-off coachings.
But now there's theGroundbreakers is the name of
our coaching group for folkswho've been in AdSchool for a
(36:49):
bit and last year I starteddoing my own group, the
Pathfinders.
We got the Groundbreakers andthe Pathfinders and so we-.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
What's the difference between those two?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
So the Groundbreakers there's no income requirement
or anything.
You can apply for it.
We're about to open up here forthe end of the year, going into
January.
Groundbreakers is a six monthprogram with sessions from Jen
LaSalle, who runs Beyond theBook on Wednesday nights in
(37:24):
AdSchool and she's a fantasticwomen's fiction author and just
like the mom you want in yourcorner kind of person.
And then Pathfinders is justfor authors who are earning over
$2,500 a month in royalties andthat's a year long program.
With me we're just about towrap up our first contingent
(37:47):
there and that's been really,really rewarding, getting to
work with the same peopleconsistently for the whole year.
And then, yeah, and then theagency after that.
You're right, we've got themall covered.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
We've got them Every stage.
Every stage, wherever you're at, we got help for you.
Amazon ads help.
You're the guy to go to.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Exactly Well, and I do.
I also love what you had whatwe were talking about earlier
with hiring people.
You know that sometimes thevery best way to do it is to
spend some time, but it doesgive people an opportunity
because you know they can workwith you with your five day
challenge and they get a taste,you know, of what you do.
And they're like, yeah, thisguy speaks to me because we all
(38:34):
learn.
We all have different learningstyles and there are some people
that you listen to what theyhave to say on a topic and you
go, oh yeah, I can relate tothat.
And there are other people whocan be giving great information,
but their delivery style, theway they do it, whatever it's
like, I just zone out, I don'tknow what you know.
(38:56):
So it gives people a chance toreally know, like and trust you.
So that's a good.
That's a very it's a very good.
That's interesting yourPathfinders thing.
I'm gonna like try to get myincome earning to a stable
enough place where I might be aplie.
I'm just gonna work on that.
Brian, he gave me a challenge.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
It gives.
I like I always resisted it andthat was the thing that held me
back from, you know, chargingwhat these kind of services
would be worth.
But it's like I never wanna putsomeone out.
You know, I never want someoneto take their whole royalty
(39:38):
check and then give it to me.
I don't want that to happen,Like obviously earlier in your
career.
There's not much of a choicewith that, but on a recurring
monthly basis.
I don't really want that.
But when I thought, okay, well,what if I put some of these
(39:59):
income caps in there so that Iwouldn't feel bad, I would never
take more than like 20% of whatsomeone is earning, with hopes
to boost that, obviously, andmake that back.
But doing that last year wasreally a game changer as far as
(40:20):
just and helping the peoplewhere they are and being able to
offer those services has beenreally, really cool.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, and the other kind of way to look at it too.
So for listeners out there,whatever stage you're in is the
stage you need to be in, right?
So, trying to overreach andjump the level like if you're
trying to jump up two or threestairs you're going to trip and
fall I'm just saying right, so Ilike that, you have like,
(40:56):
because you have thoserequirements.
You're saying this is a riskybusiness, right?
Advertising.
There's no guarantees, youcan't promise anything, so the
best you can do is work at thelevel that you're at to hope for
or to work toward that nextlevel.
And yes, like the ad services,whichever level you're at, it's
(41:17):
going to help you get a littlebit better, right?
So if you do the five daychallenge, you're getting
started.
You're at that level, you'relearning, you're picking things
up.
You might have to spend alittle bit of money, you might
lose a little bit of money, butit's going to be.
You know, risk, reward, it'strial and error.
You're investing in yourbusiness but then, as you get
bigger and you get better andyou start doing more and now
(41:38):
you've got more sales and nowyou've got a big enough income
to truly hire that out it canreally like jump you, jump you
up at an appropriate pace.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, no, I think that's a your stair analogy is
so good.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, I have good analogies.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Yeah, if you go up too many old trip, it's really
good.
You must be a writer.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
If I, if I, I'm going to pat myself on the back.
I'm good at analogies.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
You are, you are.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I did want to say one more thing, too, as, speaking
of analogies, because I'm goodat them too- we all are.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
We're all writers Because we're writers.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
But I also think it's very similar to starting out
with fiction writing, right Likewhen you, when you start out,
you you can't replicate.
You know what you're usually areader, you know what you like,
but to replicate what you enjoy,I just it just takes time and
it takes work.
(42:41):
And I think the advertisingit's just also a skill set.
I mean, it's the whole thing,it's a skill set.
And I do think sometimes peopleare jumping ahead of themselves
and then they throw up theirhands and they go.
I am a son ads don't work, orFacebook ads don't work, and
it's like well, have you lookedat your series page?
(43:03):
Have you looked at your covers?
Have you looked at your blurbs?
How about the writing itself?
You know, it's like we, we wantto leapfrog over all these
places and and be somewhere.
We're not.
And and I think this like theoverarching message of this
whole episode today, I think, isthat patience, one thing at a
(43:25):
time.
Do it slowly, whether you'rehiring somebody, writing fiction
, building a career oradvertising your books,
everything is just a process andand there are skills, and we've
used this, this one, thiscomparison, in the past as well.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
It's like if you're learning a musical instrument
which we both did in our pastlives right Like in my current
life.
Well, yeah, you're current,you're current life.
I'm still playing.
I just don't play like foranybody else, so anyway, another
discussion here another sidenote.
But when you're first learning,you're not going to be, you know
, playing Rachmaninoff on thepiano.
(44:02):
You're going to be playing Maryhad a little lamb when you
start out, and so you have tokind of treat it the same way.
It takes every skill set, andthey're all skill sets.
Every single one takes thattime, takes that patience, and
we're not patient people.
But we have to try, because youcan't, you can't start from the
beginning.
You can't start from nothingand expect to be an expert at it
(44:23):
.
You just can't.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, very true.
Very good analogy.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Got myself on the back again.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
I played the clarinet .
Speaker 2 (44:32):
So there you go.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that kind ofwraps us up here for today.
Any other final questions?
Greta?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, just, I would just love Brian to kind of give
in a rundown overview of all thestuff that he has.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Oh my gosh, do I have yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Can you name them all ?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
No, no point people to some of the things you think
would be the most helpful, and Iwould say one that he should be
listening to the Selma bookshow for sure.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yep Selma book show dot com.
It's available wherever youlisten to the author wheel
that's right.
So you can probably find itthere.
And then the five day challenge.
Next one will be in January.
That's at authorsadvertisecom,and if you heard things like
(45:30):
author ad school or this pageforward blurbs or ground
breakers or pathfinders or theagency, just email us, brian
bryan at selling for authorscom,and ask about it, because we'll
point you in the rightdirection.
It's just so fun to offer allthis stuff and you know what?
(45:55):
I wouldn't have been able to doit without some serious help.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
There you go.
Way to bring it back to thebeginning.
Love it.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yep Good job.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
The wheel.
The wheel has turned.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
The author wheel.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
This is why we are the author wheel Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Again, another well metaphor, I guess.
Yeah, there we go.
We're too clever for our owngood sometimes, regardless.
Well, to all our listeners,thank you so much for joining us
today.
All of the links will beincluded in the show notes, so
please go check that out.
And, in addition, don't forgetas always, we have our five days
(46:36):
to clarity how to write your.
I'm screwing up the title.
I'm sorry, I'm screwing up thetitle.
I messed it up.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Sorry, if you didn't screw up the title, I would have
.
We've changed the title toomany times, but it's basically
about author clarity and how todiscover and write your mission
statement and an author tagline.
And it is free on the otherwheelcom yes, how do I do?
(47:03):
Is that okay?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I think that was all right.
I don't know.
People are going to getconfused.
Go to the show notes.
It's there.
Yes, it is, and until next time, keep your stories rolling.
Hi everyone, welcome to the Author Wheel podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery Thriller.
Author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author, and togetherwe are the Author Wheel.
This week we are excited to betalking with Amazon ads and
blurb writing guru, brian Cohen.
It's been a big goal to havehim on the show, so we're
excited to talk with him andhave you hear what he has to say
(00:28):
about all things copywritingand ads and business.
But before we get into that,greta tell me what's been going
on.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Well, I don't have a lot to say because I've been
kind of focused on redoing thehouse my husband painted the
entire downstairs andrearranging furniture and
getting new art and blah, blah,blah and trying to get it done
so that I can actually put thetree up, so getting ready for
Christmas and shopping and allof the craziness that goes with
(01:01):
the holidays.
I will say, though, I juststarted yesterday kind of
getting organized and my sevendeadly revamp, you know, taking
that series and revamping it,yeah, and which I think might be
interesting for listeners tokind of go with me on that
journey, because it's sort of abig deal taking an old series
(01:21):
and giving it an entirely new,giving it a facelift, you know.
Anyway, so back in season one,episode seven, sarah Rosette.
We talked to her about her bookon how to write a series.
She's pretty brilliant and sheuses Trello, which is actually a
(01:45):
free app.
I'm sure there's a paid versionthat I'm only using the free
app.
That's very interesting becauseyou can create boards and lists
within the boards and it's kindof a cool organizational tool.
It is not made for writers, forwriting, it's made for business
in general, I think, but sheuses it to plan series, and so I
(02:09):
decided to give it a whirl andit's really working well.
I'm super excited about it.
That's great, yeah, so I thinkshe talks about it a bit more in
season one, episode seven.
So for listeners who areinterested, give that season a
listen and jump on over toTrello and give it a look, see
(02:29):
what you think.
So, anyway, that's all I'mdoing.
What are you up to?
I think much more than me.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, I've been kind of run around like a chicken
with my head cut off, to betotally honest.
But that's okay, I kind of likeit that way.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
That's sort of our MO in life.
Anyway, I wouldn't know you ifyou had your head on.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I mean right, yeah.
But so the big thing that I'vebeen working on has been the new
Clarify, Simplify, ImplementSubstack Newsletter.
So if you haven't gone andchecked that out yet, please do
it's.
I have, I think.
As of this recording, I wannasay there are four articles up
(03:12):
now and I have a whole long listof more to come for December.
I'm gonna be focusing a lot onsort of reflecting on the year
and how to plan for 2024.
So kind of all that likestrategy planning, good stuff.
(03:32):
But if you're interested in mytake on the writing and
publishing industry, it is afree subscription.
You can also opt into the paidversions of that and support me
and the author wheel andeverything we're doing.
I set up the tiers so far as $5a month or $50 a year, so it's
(03:58):
basically buy us a coffee.
That's all good.
Other than that, I'm stillwriting fiction every morning.
I've kept up that habit, keptup the consistency.
Even during Thanksgiving andour Vegas trip I managed to get
at least a few words a day.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Good for you.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, yeah, except one of those days was in Vegas.
I literally wrote 16, one, sixwords, but I counted it, I
counted it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
But the fact that you were awake and cognizant, based
on some of the evenings we hadin Vegas, I think that's quite
an accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
So Well, thank you, thank you, me too, I mean.
And I kept a streak alive and Ithink that's kind of the
important thing right now for meis just keeping up that
consistency in those daily wins.
So that's been good.
Go you, Thank you.
Thank you All right.
Well, I think there's nothingelse to report this week, so
(04:57):
let's get on with the interview.
Brian is the founder of AuthorAd School, Best Page Forward and
the Author Ad Agency.
He's also the co-host of theSelmaur Books Show podcast,
which just finished its 500consecutive week, which is mind
blowing.
It's staggering Knowing now,knowing, how much work goes into
(05:18):
each of these episodes.
The fact that you've nevermissed a week is just mind
blowing.
So congratulations.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Thank you, kind of makes me want to take a nap, oh
yeah, yeah, I'll send a pillow,I'll send something.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Thank you Well welcome.
We're really excited to haveyou here today.
Thank you for joining us.
This is cool.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah, I'm really happy.
I'm really happy to be herey'all.
Thanks for having me on let'sparty.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Absolutely All right.
Well, I have been listening tothe Selmaur Books Show for years
.
I think you know that you wereone of my early inspirations to
actually treat this like abusiness, so that was cool.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, nice, so we're excited.
I would definitely say you areone of my virtual mentors.
You may not have realized it,but I definitely followed so
much of your advice and I'vedone the not Author Ad School,
but the five day challenge, andI've taken so many of your
workshops.
I have book blurbs.
I mean I feel like listeners,you need to hold onto your hats.
(06:21):
We have so many things we cantalk to Brian about today.
Get out of pencil and takenotes.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, absolutely so, brian.
Why don't you start?
We'll start with our genericquestions and then, as usual,
we'll go off on all of ourlittle tangents here.
But what is your writing andpublishing story?
How did you get to be the BrianCohen?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh, my goodness.
Okay, well, I started with ablog 2008 or so.
I will admit to being on a tempassignment working the phones
for some kind of company I don'teven know what it did and I've
been wanting to start a blog fora long time and I was like,
(07:07):
well, no one's calling.
It was the week beforeChristmas, no one was calling
and I was like, fine, I'll startmy blog now.
And so I got paid like 40 hoursthat week.
To you know, someone from thatcompany is going to track me
down at some point.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, we won't name names.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, we won't name names.
I can't even remember the name,but I worked about 40 hours
that week on setting up my blog.
It was nice to get paid forthat, and those blog posts that
I wrote over the next couple ofyears ended up being my first
book in 2010.
Wow, wow, yeah.
So, like dozens and dozens ofposts, I just had to fill it out
(07:45):
a little bit, flesh it out alittle bit to get to 1000
creative writing prompts,because it was a creative
writing blog and I, you know, Ididn't really expect to become
an author from that.
I was just trying to helpwriters, which, of course, you
know has followed me for thelast 13 years.
(08:05):
Since then, in 2010, Ipublished it.
Kdp wasn't even called KDP yet.
It was like Amazon publishingservices or something.
And create space?
Was it create space back then?
Well, there was create space.
This shows my age in theindustry.
Create space was not yet ownedby Amazon.
(08:26):
Yeah, it was just a company inCharleston, south Carolina.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's how I used to.
I used to print my.
My paperbacks was throughcreate space before Amazon
bought them.
So yeah, we're old school.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
I can barely stretch.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I had one book in create space too.
That's right, it's old schoolhere.
Anyway continue, brian.
We interrupted.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
No worries.
So I really liked the process.
I mean, a lot of us, I think,have fallen in love with the
publishing, publishing processat this point and I really
wanted to keep doing that.
But I also, you know, I couldsee thousands and thousands of
authors were getting into thiswhole thing and I I really like
(09:11):
helping people.
I I always enjoyed writingfiction, but I never got the
full satisfaction out ofentertaining readers that I did
out of helping authors.
And so over over these last 13years since I published that
book, I I've published a bunchof them, several dozen, most of
(09:32):
them being four writers eitherwriting prompts or later later
in my career, about ads andemail, marketing and and other
wonderful stuff.
And honestly, to this point,it's like now, most of the
writing I do, I write webinars,I write, you know, the training
(09:52):
that I do for people a lot of itfor free, which is awesome.
The emails that go out to peopleI get just like it's crazy, we
were all at, you know, 20 booksand I get amazed by the people
who reach out to me and say,like you know, hey, I've been,
(10:12):
I've been reading your emailsfor six years or something like
that and and I'm like I don'tknow who you are and that's just
so cool that you you read thisall the time and it's kind of
fun.
It's like I put a lot of workinto the emails, I put a lot of
work into the webinars and it'sfun that just like hundreds or
(10:33):
thousands of people are checkingout each one and some of them
might never like work with me inany capacity, but it's really
cool to have my writing reachthose people, even if you know
they didn't pay a dime.
They didn't, they didn'tpurchase anything.
I'm just really happy to hey,like, like you said, grant, I'd
(10:56):
be kind of that, a silent mentorfrom from across across the
country, and it's just reallyawesome to have that opportunity
.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, it's kind of my this whole writing thing,
whether it's fiction ornonfiction, whatever.
It is kind of mind blowing to,to to think that these people
you've never met, probably willnever meet thousands of them.
You're Vulcan mind melding withthem on something and they're
like in your head and it's justthis one of the things.
(11:28):
I know this is a completetangent, but just throwing it
out there, it's one of thethings about writing that I love
and also scares me, is it?
Just really kind of mindblowing that, that, that, that
happens.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it's so interesting to
that like as a I'm going to saywriting mentor that you are,
you're able to reach thosepeople and help people.
Whether or not you know it,you're helping people and that's
so key and that's so that'sbecoming more and more a part of
my, you know, philosophy, orwhat I'm really enjoying as well
(12:02):
, is this idea of like withreaders.
You're entertaining them and itcan be helpful, it can give
them that escape and I've alwaysenjoyed that.
But now, to have more directimpact on writers, where you're
influencing their day to daylife and their activity and how
they're approaching their work,I don't know.
(12:23):
That's really satisfying, it'sreally cool.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yeah, absolutely Well and I will say too so I have
sizzling synopsis, your book onhow to write a sizzling synopsis
.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I read it almost every single time I write my
book.
Blurb I read it.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
I mean, maybe not cover to cover.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
But I'm like, okay, what did he say about this?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
again Like oh yeah, and I have your more recent one
on email marketing andnewsletters and I did your ad
school and I will say that ofall of the virtual writing gurus
will call them that are out,there.
I really find your work veryactionable and very approachable
(13:08):
.
You know people you canactually like dig in and it's
useful in the moment and it'swonderful that way.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yes, absolutely, you're so welcome.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
So the next question that we always ask is what has
been your greatest roadblock andhow did you overcome that to
get where you are?
So what would like strugglething?
What did you just have to likedeal with?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean I needed, I needed help, I needed, I needed,
I had so many ideas.
I still have so many ideas.
You know, if you're if you're aClifton strengths beckasim fan,
I'm number one strategic and Iknow a lot of authors are high
strategic and so I'm alwayscoming up with ideas and plans.
(13:59):
And I think my ability to helpauthors really grew when I when
I got help and virtual help, gotgot assistance, got got people
who were really interested in insupporting kind of the, the
idea I had, the vision I had forthings like ad school, because
(14:26):
I definitely tried to do it allon my own At first I tried to
make it not just self publishing, self marketing, self self
coursing, self, everything, andit was just too much.
And I think my heart was in theright place because everything I
was trying to do was in theservice of helping people but I
(14:50):
could not possibly deliver asmuch as I wanted to.
But until I got some help and Iknow that a lot of authors out
there are towards the beginningof their journey and might not
be able to afford help but eventhere our way is to get free
help Beta readers and critiquegroups and and masterminds that
(15:17):
that you can just set up.
You don't have to pay somebodyfor like these kinds of things.
Like I told the story a milliontimes on a million different
podcasts and now you get it too.
Best page forward writing thebook blurbs was all an idea that
came from a mastermind that wassomewhat run by Simon Whistler,
(15:42):
the self rocking, selfpublishing podcast from
yesteryear.
Now he's a big YouTube star.
But connecting with others andnot just trying to do it all on
my own was probably one of thebest things I did for my writing
and my, my business and yoursanity probably as well.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And my sanity, yes, yes, and your head of hair, all
of those things, yeah, thatthat's been kind of a
reoccurring theme for a lot ofthe people that we've
interviewed Is that you can goalong so far on your own and
then if you want to grow, youcan't do it all on your own
(16:29):
anymore.
You've got to get.
You got to get that help and Iwould argue, even in the very
beginning at least, like yousaid, the virtual help, like the
help if you don't have themoney to pay for it.
Like you have so many fabulousfree things, like your five day
ad challenge.
I mean it's like it's like afull course.
So you have all those videos inthere and you know it was, I
(16:53):
thought it was terrific.
And and then people have a lotof books out for authors that
are reasonable.
You know that's not veryexpensive and all those things.
That is a good, a good bit ofadvice.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
So so quick question on that.
Specifically how did youactually make the decision when
it came to hiring someone?
How, what was the tipping pointor what was the trigger that
actually had you going?
You know what I can hiresomeone.
I'm going to hire someone.
This is going to increase mybusiness, or how did you make
(17:29):
that decision?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
I think it was out of desperation.
I think I was so so, overload,overloaded.
Every time that I made majorhiring decisions in my business,
it was due to overwhelm.
Yeah, and I probably shouldhave done it months earlier, and
I think that's true for a lotof authors who are overwhelmed.
But.
(17:51):
But the problem is here's thebig problem If you are hiring
when you are overwhelmed andoverloaded, you might hire
someone good, might hire someonebad, but sure as heck your
hiring process will be rushed.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, so you've got to Every time I've had need on
my team.
Now, if my my person I spendthe most time with on a regular
basis, that isn't isn't my wife,which is Charlene.
Charlene is my kind of my COO,if you will, and she is always
(18:34):
like we need someone.
We better get this person quick.
I'm like we got to slow ourroll here because we need to try
to pick the right person andthen you can set up a good
process and it can still notwork.
But what I have found is thebest process for finding someone
good is sometimes having themwork for you for a while and
(18:59):
then you see that they have morein them.
Several people like the youknow, those of you who know ad
school like Megan, like Quinn,who does our Friday marketing
sprints and who is now one ofour author ad agency account
managers.
They started as a student andthen a volunteer and then they
became a six figure author andthe things that Quinn achieved
(19:26):
and then Quinn wanting to helpother authors, just like we all
do, like seeing that, made merealize oh, you know, quinn is
awesome.
I'm going to stick with Quinnfor as long as they'll stick
with me, and I think that seeingwhat people do over time is the
(19:47):
greatest indicator of whetheror not they're going to be.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
They're going to be solid for you, which goes back
to your point about time and notrushing things, because you, in
order to build thoserelationships, you have to
network, you have to try thingsout, you have to start slow,
start small and let that grownaturally.
It's hard to do, so it is.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, so, hard.
But, patience is the best thing.
Patience isn't easy.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
No, no, especially in our industry.
But it is a virtue.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, I think.
I think what happens sometimestoo is we get this sense of FOMO
, you know, like if we don't dothis thing, whatever the thing
is, and it has to happen now,because if we don't do it now,
you know we're going to miss theboat or something like that.
And then we, you know, raceahead to do something.
And, honestly, I think one ofthe things I really love about
(20:47):
the Selma book show and thethings that I've read from you
and your philosophy is, I feellike it's more like no, let's
build something sustainable, notjump on the next huge fast
trend.
It's like do ads work overnight?
No, because do you know whatyou're doing overnight?
(21:08):
No, you know.
I mean, everything has aprogression.
And this idea that you're goingto race into something, throw a
bunch of money at something ortime at something, and somehow
it's going to blow your careerup, because XYZ author blew up
their career with one book, youknow where.
Everybody's looking for thatquick fix.
(21:29):
And I think that is.
It's dangerous.
It's a good way to waste a lotof time and money and make
mistakes.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's the sustainability that mean.
You said the big buzzword rightthere Something sustainable.
It's not something a lot of usare looking for, but it might be
what all of us need.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, so okay, so you've decided you need to hire
someone.
You've decided you know youneed to delegate, you need to
expand your mindset so that youcan find the person.
You're building that network.
How do you actually do that?
It's not easy.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I mean, I think a good pool of people is sometimes
your own readers and your ownfans.
Sometimes there's someone inthe mix that that's a good fit.
I found a lot of people on myteam from students and readers
and whatnot, and then you wantto see them do a lot of things.
You do see them do a little bitof work.
(22:38):
You want to see that they'llactually follow through on
something, and so I like to giveapplicants a sample task to see
if they do things the kind ofway I want to like.
But even then you still don'tknow.
You have to be patient.
You have to assume that even ifyou put in the effort, you put
(22:59):
in all the effort to hire theright person, it still might not
work out.
But I remember one of my bestproject managers.
She ended up being someone whoapplied and I kind of wasn't
sure.
But I ended up hiring them forkind of just like a lesser role
(23:20):
and they just were so great overtime and it goes back to well,
let's see how this person doesover time to see if they're the
right kind of person.
But hiring is definitely a pain.
Hiring is hard and if you makeit a process rather than a panic
(23:42):
, it is more likely to work.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So a lot of our listeners are probably newer
writers kind of coming out ofthe box, and so what would you
like if you were going to givethem some of your best?
Because now we've kind of likesegwayed into hiring virtual
assistants and stuff and they'renot probably the vast majority
of them.
They're not there, but thatdoesn't mean they don't need
(24:11):
help, they do.
So what would be some of yourbest tips or advice that you
would give to newer writers,like maybe even looking back on
your own career and saying Iwish I had done this sooner
instead of waiting until I wasdesperate or in a panic or in a
bloody mess, you know?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yeah, I mean.
My best tip is to be malleableis to be open to other people's
ideas.
The stubborn people sinkStubborn people sink.
If you're too stuck into yourown ideas, you're not really
going to work well with others,first and foremost, but you're
(24:55):
also just unlikely to hearfeedback.
That could be extremelybeneficial.
I love now working with my teambecause they'll tell me if I'm
wrong.
That's perfect.
They'll save me time fromscrewing something up, and I
(25:16):
think that every time you hearthat you're not doing something,
the way that's going to helpyou succeed and every time you
listen to that you get a littlebetter.
Every time you don't listen tothat, you get stuck deeper into
the mud.
And I think that because nowthis is such a long game, it's
(25:41):
going to take most authorsseveral years to really get
traction.
If you get stuck in your ownvacuum, that you're marketing in
a vacuum, you're writing in avacuum, you don't get any
feedback in any point of theprocess.
(26:01):
You are going to bedisappointed in your results.
So I think being malleable andbeing open to feedback is
essential, whether you're evenin just in a critique group or
you're with other authors or youpost in a group.
(26:23):
The worst feeling is you seesomeone post in a group
requesting feedback and we'veall seen it and then you can
tell that the person is notgoing to take any of it because
they really just wanted to bevalidated and have people tell
them their ideas are amazingwhich I get psychologically, but
(26:48):
it's not going to help you.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
I was at a little writer's meeting in a coffee
shop not that long ago and therewas a woman there who had one
book published.
She couldn't figure out why itwasn't selling.
And then she started talkingabout the publishing journey and
how she hired two differenteditors that had really good
(27:12):
backgrounds and it worked withlots of people and she was like
but they were just wrong.
They were telling her to fixher book and they were just
wrong.
So she fired them and then hercover was awful, awful.
And one of the women thereworks with her cover designer
and said, oh, that coverdesigner won't work with her
anymore because she forced herto make something that she was
(27:35):
embarrassed of it.
So it's exactly what you'retalking about.
She had such a no, I know whatmy cover should look like.
It's the worst cover you'veever seen in your life, or I
know how it should be edited,but it's your first book and
you're firing professionals whoare trying to help you.
So I definitely seen that.
(27:56):
I couldn't agree more.
It takes a little humility andbeing willing to hear the hard
word.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
You need to come into this with a beginner mindset,
not an expert mindset.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, and I think that's true, even when you are
farther along in your career, itdoesn't really matter how long
you've been doing it.
There's always something toimprove on and there's always
something that other people willknow or do or be better at than
you are.
So part of it is filtering whothose people are and the correct
(28:31):
advice to take.
Because, it's true, youshouldn't listen to your great
aunt Helen who thinks that yourthriller should be less or just
should be cozier.
Right, that's not necessarilythe best advice, but if you're
hiring a professional to giveyou critique and they're saying,
(28:51):
well, you've got a plot holehere, you got to fill this in,
that advice is probably good.
So, understanding thatfiltering process and then
taking the good advice yeah, nomatter where you are in the
career, in your stage, because Ithink the best authors always
take criticism to heart if it'sappropriate criticism.
(29:16):
And when they don't, or whenthey don't get that feedback
anymore, big name authors remainunnamed, who have big
traditional deals and theireditors are afraid to edit them
anymore.
And all of a sudden you'regoing.
Really, I think that needed alittle extra work on that most
recent release.
(29:37):
So just something to keep inmind.
For sure is just that we allneed it.
We all need to be open-mindedand we all need to be willing to
hear the criticism which is sopainful.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So painful.
Yeah, it's awful.
When I first started publishing, I would see my editor's email
come and I'd be like I'm notgoing to open it.
It would take me like 24 hoursto build myself up to open it,
because I knew it was going tobe like oh my gosh, I don't want
(30:13):
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Well, to this day, when I do get feedback from
anybody about anything, I readit and then I don't do anything
about it.
I set a mental time limit.
I cannot act on it or shoutabout it or cry.
I read it and I close it and Iwalk away for at least 24 hours
before I take action, because ittakes that time to get past my
(30:37):
own ego and my own struggles ormy immediate knee-jerk reaction.
They're wrong.
No, no, you just got to take amoment, take a breath and then
get back to it after that,because it is emotional.
We work in a very emotionalindustry.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Yeah, that's for sure , that is for sure.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So why don't you tell us a little bit more about your
author ad agency and how youcan be hired to help authors
with their advertising Sure?
Speaker 3 (31:14):
So this is something we started late 2022.
And we really wanted to helpauthors who are at a higher
level.
We have all the three wonderfulstuff for new folks and for
(31:36):
folks who are learning themarketing.
We have ad school and somecoaching options for people who
are trying to go higher.
But then people who are alreadyhaving great success but have
no time.
What do they do?
We started this author ad agencyto run Amazon ads for authors
(31:57):
who are already having somesuccess.
They're earning $6,000 a monthin royalties or higher, because
we have to charge a fair bit forour services and we don't want
to take all of somebody'sroyalties in order to pay for
something.
So we have that kind of cap inthere.
(32:18):
It's been really great.
We have a couple of people whojust have had these amazing
months or these amazing launches, and we know that they were so
busy in the writing and themarketing process that there is
(32:39):
no way they would have been ableto hit those numbers without
that assistance, without someonein there making the ads,
without someone in therecontributing to the number of
eyeballs on those books.
We have spaces open.
We have some spaces open.
Basically, people can justemail us and we can set up a
(33:05):
meeting.
We don't have anything too fancy, just email us at Brian at
sellingforauthorscom Cause, youknow, we don't even really have
a page for it because it's justnot, there's not so many authors
who find out about it or atthat royalty amount.
But we've really loved theability to kind of help people,
(33:29):
no matter where they are, and tobe able to do that and see
people.
I mean, some of our agencyclients are people who joined
the free course years ago andwe're able to use that
information to help them towrite the books they needed to
write in order to see somereally great numbers and we even
(33:51):
like full circle kind of momentAuthors a lot of authors, you
know when they're first thinkingabout writing, they want to get
the Trad Pub deal.
They maybe don't know anybetter or something.
That's me.
Yeah, we've all been there.
They want to get the Trad Pubdeal.
(34:13):
And we just had a client who'sbeen self publishing since 2015
and she's had such great successwith her books and after Ad
School, after success on TikTokand after the agency that she
just was in a bidding war with anew series and got picked up by
(34:36):
Penguin Random House.
That's amazing.
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
So like just be able to help someone to realize that
dream.
And she's going to keep writingindie for her other stuff, so
she's not.
We didn't turn her to the darkside or anything.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Oh, we're agnostic over here.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I actually yeah.
I am hybrid and I love the ideaand the concept of being hybrid
, you know, because that isanother way of getting help.
Yeah, that's what we weretalking about.
I mean, you have to pay forhelp one way or another.
So maybe you pay for some ofyour help, you pay for it with
royalties.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, no great point.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
But I think that's what I find so lovely about your
ecosystem that you've developedover the years is that you did
kind of start out with you knowsome of the free or less
expensive options and you'vegrown along with your clients so
that now you have this reallynice vertical stack of you know.
Wherever you are in yourbusiness right now, there's
(35:41):
something that you can offer tohelp those authors get to that
next level.
So whether you're starting outwith the you know the five day
challenge and then buying thebook and then buying the course
and then moving your way up,each level kind of gets you that
next to that next stage, whichI think is just from a
(36:02):
nonfiction author servicesperspective, it's brilliant,
obviously.
But from a you know, customerperspective, I think it's also
brilliant just because there'salways you can build that
relationship.
You can see that full circleloop as people go through your
information and get to the pointthat you know now you are, you
(36:26):
are their outsource.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Right, yeah, late last year we did try to make the
whole staff possible, becausenow after AdSchool there's
one-off coachings.
But now there's theGroundbreakers is the name of
our coaching group for folkswho've been in AdSchool for a
(36:49):
bit and last year I starteddoing my own group, the
Pathfinders.
We got the Groundbreakers andthe Pathfinders and so we-.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
What's the difference between those two?
Speaker 3 (37:04):
So the Groundbreakers there's no income requirement
or anything.
You can apply for it.
We're about to open up here forthe end of the year, going into
January.
Groundbreakers is a six monthprogram with sessions from Jen
LaSalle, who runs Beyond theBook on Wednesday nights in
(37:24):
AdSchool and she's a fantasticwomen's fiction author and just
like the mom you want in yourcorner kind of person.
And then Pathfinders is justfor authors who are earning over
$2,500 a month in royalties andthat's a year long program.
With me we're just about towrap up our first contingent
(37:47):
there and that's been really,really rewarding, getting to
work with the same peopleconsistently for the whole year.
And then, yeah, and then theagency after that.
You're right, we've got themall covered.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
We've got them Every stage.
Every stage, wherever you're at, we got help for you.
Amazon ads help.
You're the guy to go to.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Exactly Well, and I do.
I also love what you had whatwe were talking about earlier
with hiring people.
You know that sometimes thevery best way to do it is to
spend some time, but it doesgive people an opportunity
because you know they can workwith you with your five day
challenge and they get a taste,you know, of what you do.
And they're like, yeah, thisguy speaks to me because we all
(38:34):
learn.
We all have different learningstyles and there are some people
that you listen to what theyhave to say on a topic and you
go, oh yeah, I can relate tothat.
And there are other people whocan be giving great information,
but their delivery style, theway they do it, whatever it's
like, I just zone out, I don'tknow what you know.
(38:56):
So it gives people a chance toreally know, like and trust you.
So that's a good.
That's a very it's a very good.
That's interesting yourPathfinders thing.
I'm gonna like try to get myincome earning to a stable
enough place where I might be aplie.
I'm just gonna work on that.
Brian, he gave me a challenge.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
It gives.
I like I always resisted it andthat was the thing that held me
back from, you know, chargingwhat these kind of services
would be worth.
But it's like I never wanna putsomeone out.
You know, I never want someoneto take their whole royalty
(39:38):
check and then give it to me.
I don't want that to happen,Like obviously earlier in your
career.
There's not much of a choicewith that, but on a recurring
monthly basis.
I don't really want that.
But when I thought, okay, well,what if I put some of these
(39:59):
income caps in there so that Iwouldn't feel bad, I would never
take more than like 20% of whatsomeone is earning, with hopes
to boost that, obviously, andmake that back.
But doing that last year wasreally a game changer as far as
(40:20):
just and helping the peoplewhere they are and being able to
offer those services has beenreally, really cool.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Well, and the other kind of way to look at it too.
So for listeners out there,whatever stage you're in is the
stage you need to be in, right?
So, trying to overreach andjump the level like if you're
trying to jump up two or threestairs you're going to trip and
fall I'm just saying right, so Ilike that, you have like,
(40:56):
because you have thoserequirements.
You're saying this is a riskybusiness, right?
Advertising.
There's no guarantees, youcan't promise anything, so the
best you can do is work at thelevel that you're at to hope for
or to work toward that nextlevel.
And yes, like the ad services,whichever level you're at, it's
(41:17):
going to help you get a littlebit better, right?
So if you do the five daychallenge, you're getting
started.
You're at that level, you'relearning, you're picking things
up.
You might have to spend alittle bit of money, you might
lose a little bit of money, butit's going to be.
You know, risk, reward, it'strial and error.
You're investing in yourbusiness but then, as you get
bigger and you get better andyou start doing more and now
(41:38):
you've got more sales and nowyou've got a big enough income
to truly hire that out it canreally like jump you, jump you
up at an appropriate pace.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yeah, no, I think that's a your stair analogy is
so good.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, I have good analogies.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
Yeah, if you go up too many old trip, it's really
good.
You must be a writer.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
If I, if I, I'm going to pat myself on the back.
I'm good at analogies.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
You are, you are.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I did want to say one more thing, too, as, speaking
of analogies, because I'm goodat them too- we all are.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
We're all writers Because we're writers.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
But I also think it's very similar to starting out
with fiction writing, right Likewhen you, when you start out,
you you can't replicate.
You know what you're usually areader, you know what you like,
but to replicate what you enjoy,I just it just takes time and
it takes work.
(42:41):
And I think the advertisingit's just also a skill set.
I mean, it's the whole thing,it's a skill set.
And I do think sometimes peopleare jumping ahead of themselves
and then they throw up theirhands and they go.
I am a son ads don't work, orFacebook ads don't work, and
it's like well, have you lookedat your series page?
(43:03):
Have you looked at your covers?
Have you looked at your blurbs?
How about the writing itself?
You know, it's like we, we wantto leapfrog over all these
places and and be somewhere.
We're not.
And and I think this like theoverarching message of this
whole episode today, I think, isthat patience, one thing at a
(43:25):
time.
Do it slowly, whether you'rehiring somebody, writing fiction
, building a career oradvertising your books,
everything is just a process andand there are skills, and we've
used this, this one, thiscomparison, in the past as well.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
It's like if you're learning a musical instrument
which we both did in our pastlives right Like in my current
life.
Well, yeah, you're current,you're current life.
I'm still playing.
I just don't play like foranybody else, so anyway, another
discussion here another sidenote.
But when you're first learning,you're not going to be, you know
, playing Rachmaninoff on thepiano.
(44:02):
You're going to be playing Maryhad a little lamb when you
start out, and so you have tokind of treat it the same way.
It takes every skill set, andthey're all skill sets.
Every single one takes thattime, takes that patience, and
we're not patient people.
But we have to try, because youcan't, you can't start from the
beginning.
You can't start from nothingand expect to be an expert at it
(44:23):
.
You just can't.
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, very true.
Very good analogy.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Got myself on the back again.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
I played the clarinet .
Speaker 2 (44:32):
So there you go.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that kind ofwraps us up here for today.
Any other final questions?
Greta?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Well, just, I would just love Brian to kind of give
in a rundown overview of all thestuff that he has.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
Oh my gosh, do I have yeah?
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Can you name them all ?
Speaker 1 (44:56):
No, no point people to some of the things you think
would be the most helpful, and Iwould say one that he should be
listening to the Selma bookshow for sure.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Yep Selma book show dot com.
It's available wherever youlisten to the author wheel
that's right.
So you can probably find itthere.
And then the five day challenge.
Next one will be in January.
That's at authorsadvertisecom,and if you heard things like
(45:30):
author ad school or this pageforward blurbs or ground
breakers or pathfinders or theagency, just email us, brian
bryan at selling for authorscom,and ask about it, because we'll
point you in the rightdirection.
It's just so fun to offer allthis stuff and you know what?
(45:55):
I wouldn't have been able to doit without some serious help.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
There you go.
Way to bring it back to thebeginning.
Love it.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Yep Good job.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
The wheel.
The wheel has turned.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
The author wheel.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
This is why we are the author wheel Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Again, another well metaphor, I guess.
Yeah, there we go.
We're too clever for our owngood sometimes, regardless.
Well, to all our listeners,thank you so much for joining us
today.
All of the links will beincluded in the show notes, so
please go check that out.
And, in addition, don't forgetas always, we have our five days
(46:36):
to clarity how to write your.
I'm screwing up the title.
I'm sorry, I'm screwing up thetitle.
I messed it up.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Sorry, if you didn't screw up the title, I would have
.
We've changed the title toomany times, but it's basically
about author clarity and how todiscover and write your mission
statement and an author tagline.
And it is free on the otherwheelcom yes, how do I do?
(47:03):
Is that okay?
Speaker 2 (47:04):
I think that was all right.
I don't know.
People are going to getconfused.
Go to the show notes.
It's there.
Yes, it is, and until next time, keep your stories rolling.
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