June 17, 2024 • 52 mins
SURPRISE!
We said we were taking a break for the summer—and we are—but we couldn't skip this opportunity to have the fabulous Alessandra Torre on the show to talk about her journey into writing, publishing, and running one of the best writer conferences in the country.
Alessandra (AR) Torre is a New York Times, Wall Street Journal and USA Today bestselling author of more than 30 novels. In addition to writing, she's the co-founder of Authors AI and Inkers Con.
In this interview, Alessandra shares how a spontaneous tweak in her book description led to massive success, how she's overcome writer's block and the inertia of the messy middle, and why she developed Inkers Con, an online-first conference geared to help writers across all stages find success for their career.
GET $50 OFF YOUR INKERS CON TICKET WITH CODE WHEEL50!*
Inkers Con online Digital Conference is a full-scale indie fiction authors' conference with two weeks of interactive launch events kicking off on July 20th.
Attendees get access to:
✅ 26 motivating and actionable classes, taught by bestselling authors and experts who will share their best insights for crafting compelling books, improving your business, finding your readers, and more.
✅ Dozens of interactive live events including author roundtables, Q&As with bestselling authors, speed networking, virtual happy hour, and more.
✅ Co-working writing sprints so you can focus on getting large chunks of writing done.
Check out their lineup of classes and events here >> www.inkerscon.com
*Note: We are proud affiliates of Inkers Con 2024. By clicking the link or using the code WHEEL50, you will receive $50 off your ticket and we will receive a commission from your purchase, at no extra cost to you.
Follow Us!
Alessandra Torre
Website: www.alessandratorre.com
Inkers Con: www.inkerscon.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/alessandratorre0/
The Author Wheel:
Website: www.AuthorWheel.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AuthorWheel
Greta Boris:
Website: www.GretaBoris.com
Facebook: @GretaBorisAuthor
Instagram: @GretaBoris
Megan Haskell:
Website: www.MeganHaskell.com
Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor
TikTok: @AuthorMeganHaskell
FREE Mini Email Course
Have you ever struggled to explain to others exactly what you write? Or wondered which of the many fiction ideas running through your brain you should tackle? If so, The Author Wheel’s new mini-course might be your solution.
7 Days to Clarity: Uncover Your Author Purpose will help you uncover your core writing motivations, avoid shiny-thing syndrome, and create clear marketing language.
Each daily email will lead you step by step in defining your author brand, crafting a mission statement, and distilling that statement into a pithy tagline. And, best of all, it’s free.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boras, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Today we have a surprise summerbonus episode for you all with
Alessandra Torre.
So we're still on summer break,so we don't have a regular
intro.
We don't have an update becauseI don't know what I'm doing
right now as this airs.
So we're still on summer break,so we don't have a regular
intro.
We don't have an update becauseI don't know what I'm doing
right now as this airs, so we'rejust going to dive around
(00:30):
Europe.
Yeah, maybe, maybe.
So we're going to just diveright into the interview.
So, in case you don't alreadyknow her, alessandra is a New
York Times, wall Street Journaland USA Today bestselling author
of more than 30 novels.
In addition to writing, she'sthe co-founder of Authors, ai
(00:50):
and InkersCon.
So welcome, alessandra, we areso excited to have you here
today.
Thank you, guys.
I'm so excited to be here.
I love talking shop, so it'sgreat to be able to talk about
writing and authoring you guys.
Well, good, because we're goingto go off on all sorts of
different tangents.
I can already guarantee it.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yes, we are the rabbit trail queens.
Yeah yeah.
In fact I was thinking aboutrenaming the podcast instead of
the author wheel, the rabbittrail queens, but then people
might think we were hunting orsomething terrible like that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah it kind of takes away the whole like writing
author thing.
Yeah, it kind of takes away thewhole like writing author thing
.
Anyway, why don't we get backon track?
So, alessandra, why don't youtell us a little bit more about
your journey into writing?
Absolutely.
So I started in 2012.
I was 28.
And I was like in between jobs,I was trying to figure out, kind
(01:43):
of what I wanted to do with mylife.
My husband had sold a companythat I worked for, so I didn't
have like I was just at thislike crossroads where it was
like, oh, like, is thereanything you ever really wanted
to do?
Like we were in this kind ofrare position where, like I
could take some time to figureout what I wanted to do and I
did not think about writing.
I was thinking about all sortsof other things and but
(02:11):
self-publishing was like reallycatching attention in the media
and I read an article that saidEL James was making like a
million dollars a day off FiftyShades of Grey.
I had read Fifty Shades of Greyand I was like you know, maybe
I could like try writing a book,and I wasn't thinking that I
would do it for a job, I wasthinking it would just be a fun
thing, like I could write thisbook, no one could know about it
.
I could release it, no onewould have to know about it if
it flopped, whatever.
(02:31):
If it did well, whatever.
So I did, I wrote a book in sixweeks.
It was called BlindfoldedInnocence.
I read it a few times I waslike, yeah, this sounds good.
And I published it like noeditor.
No, I had no training inwriting.
It was really just like I satdown and kind of vomited out
(02:52):
this love story, which was crazy, because I really had expected
to write a suspense novel,because that was just what I
always read was suspense.
So I did not know anythingabout writing to market.
I did not know the rules ofromance.
Um, I broke a lot of the rulesof romance in that book, um, but
I self-published it and it soldlike three to five copies a day
(03:15):
for a while.
It slowly worked up, like itstarted getting reviews.
It slowly worked up to like 30or 40 copies a day.
And then, um, and then I went.
We had a weekend trip that wewere going on, so it as anyone
knows who's listening.
If you're an author, especiallya new author, you can get like
obsessed with checking yoursales, like it's just something
(03:36):
I would do.
Like every 15 minutes I'drefresh the page to see if
someone had bought another book.
Um, and so I obsessivelychecked my, my, my sales all
morning and then, right beforewe got in the car to get on this
road trip, I was like you know,I think I'm gonna write a new
book description and I just likejotted out a new book
description.
I didn't put much thought intoit.
(03:57):
I had never changed my bookdescription before, but I wrote
a different book description,you know, refreshed it on KDP,
and then we got in the car andwe left, and seven hours later
we arrived in Memphis and Ichecked in.
This is 2012.
So I didn't have like interneton my phone.
I mean, I had some sort ofsmartphone, but anyways, by the
time I got settled and checkedmy sales, I had sold like 130
(04:18):
copies like during that thatride, and I was convinced like
something had broken in thesystem.
Right, like any moment I'mgoing to get an email from
Amazon.
They're like never mind, thatwas a mistake.
But then by the time I went tobed, I sold like 500 copies, and
it was.
And then the next day I sold1000 copies, and then the next
day I sold 2000 copies andbefore I knew it, like I had
(04:39):
sold 30,000 copies.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Chimney Christmas.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
That's great.
Yeah, wow, yeah, and it was allbecause I changed my book
description and it was that onething.
It was like it.
I had at the time a reallyclickbaity cover.
Like the cover definitely likegrabbed your attention.
It was I had the distinct honorof being the first band cover.
They didn't even know what todo.
(05:05):
This is again.
This is 2012.
This was like early days and mybook was suddenly like in the
top 10 of Amazon and it was veryscandalous and I think Amazon
was like what do we do?
Like we can't have you know,like visitors and children
coming to this page and seeingthis like sexy cover, but they
didn't, like they didn't haveprocesses in place, like it took
three weeks and suddenly mybook just disappeared.
(05:27):
Like we couldn't find it unlessyou had the direct URL.
It didn't work, didn't come upand search and it took another
two weeks from at the time.
Then I had an agent by thattime and then we actually like
we were going to auction and wesold that book to a publisher
and all this like my book bookgot banned like three days
before the auction.
It was an exciting time, but itwas basically that moment where
(05:48):
it was like, oh my gosh, likethis is my new career, like I
wasn't expecting it.
It didn't happen, but it goesto show the power of literally.
I didn't spend a dollar, I justchanged my book description and
it showed me how many peoplehad been clicking on my cover
and then reading the bookdescription and be like, yeah,
you know, and I was selling,despite myself that, 15 to 30
sales a day, um, and once Ichanged that book description,
(06:10):
it was like the missing pieceand my and literally like
birthed my entire career.
Um, because at that point intime it was like, okay, this is
my new job.
I sold that book for multiplesix figures to a publisher.
Um, and it was like, okay, nowI have this like bucket of money
, like I don't need to go backto work.
I literally made enough foreight years of salary.
(06:33):
And then I just wrote booksfrom then on and continued
self-publishing.
I continued to occasionallysell those books after release
to publishers.
That doesn't work anymore, butback then they were buying it.
You know, if it was successful,they would buy it after the
fact.
Wow, well, that is quite a story, so I'm sure everybody
listening, including me, wantsto know what's the secret sauce
(06:59):
on the book description yeah,yeah, I get asked that all the
time and went like you know thetime when I was doing it wasn't
like I was like this is themoment that's gonna change my
entire career in my life.
You know, like I didn't, Ididn't even know I was doing
anything like, so I never savedthe original book description
before I changed it.
Like five or six years ago Isat down with like the Goodreads
(07:21):
library and I was like please,like I know that y'all have
historically somewhere like thefirst blurb there was for this
book and she dug around and Ithink we found like the first
and the second and thedifference was the second was
much, much like it leaned muchheavier on the sexual
relationship between the couple.
(07:43):
And again this was this was likea super, like scandalous cover
and so I think people wereclicking on this super sexy
cover and then they're readingthis description.
That was like tame and like thetwo things didn't fit.
So when we changed that bookdescription to match the cover,
when we, when I changed thatbook description to match the
cover, then it was, you know,all lights green.
(08:06):
You know there wasn't thatdisconnect and that was what it
took.
So it sounds to me like it wasfirst off, you know, finding
your niche right, like you knewyou were romance, you had the
sexy cover, then bringing it allinto alignment and once you had
all of that together, it workedtogether.
(08:26):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I meanthat seems so obvious when you
say it out loud.
It was a brilliant analysis,yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
But the thing is is that all of us, I think we're
very close to our work and so itis very difficult.
I mean, there's a lot offabulous writers who can write
an 80,000 word book and then,you know, just want to pull out
their eyebrows when it comes towriting a book description.
They're just like.
I can't do this.
(08:56):
So it does make a kind of sensethat that, and maybe because
you had published it and steppedaway yeah Well, you hadn't
actually stepped away, you wereimpulsively or compulsively
refreshing your Amazon page, butit's still.
You know you'd stepped awayfrom the story, so to speak.
It was easier for you to comein with a new blurb, so maybe
(09:18):
that's.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And I'd also read reviews.
It really wasn't an intelligentprocess but I think, despite
myself, I had read every reviewthere had ever been for my book
you know what I mean Like threetimes.
So I knew like that peoplereally liked like the main
character, you know the mainhero or the hero.
So that I played a lot up in myblurb and and I think about the
(09:42):
cavalierness that I publishedthe book, like I, without any
editing, without any like realknowledge on how to write a book
.
I had just read, I had read mywhole life.
I knew like what I liked in astory, how a story should be
told.
But I'm pretty sure I wrotethat first book description with
very little thought, like Ithink I was just like, oh, you
(10:02):
know, I didn't have anyexperience writing book
descriptions.
So by the time I wrote thesecond one, which was like six
weeks in eight weeks in, I had Ihad written more because I've
been writing more at that pointin time in the sequel and I was
just a little bit more marketingsavvy than I was initially and
I think there was just a littlemore like care that went into
that.
So now having I mean, you'veworked with traditional
(10:25):
publishers they bought.
You know at least a few of yourbooks.
Do you find that like?
Do the traditional publisherscome in and make changes to that
description?
Do you find that that teamwork,having that extra pair of eyes,
is actually helpful, or arethey still at this point, you
know, mostly relying on what youput together yourself first?
So every publisher I've workedwith has been different.
(10:54):
I will say that my first I usedto say when I give like webinars
or classes, or I wouldintroduce myself, I would say
that I am hybrid.
I'm traditionally published andindependently published, but
I've always found my biggestsuccess was self-publishing.
Every time I pick up the NewYork Times list, it was with a
self-published book.
My traditionally publishedbooks typically flopped.
They all did really, reallypoorly.
I've never earned out Well.
(11:15):
I used to say that I've neverearned out in advance like on my
traditionally published books.
That all changed when I signedwith Amazon.
So Amazon has been my published.
So I also write under AR Tori.
Those are my suspense books.
I haven't written a romance bookin years and Amazon's imprint,
thomas and Mercer's theirmystery thriller imprint, and
(11:36):
they have published my last fivebooks.
It's a completely differentanimal Like they are.
It's just their process.
They are very much more ofalmost a self-publishing mindset
in terms of like nimble, beingnimble and really watching the
market.
So with my, with Hachette andwith Harlequin, with all three
(11:57):
I've never written a blurb thatI had.
When they came in and purchasedit, they jumped and they wrote
their own.
With Amazon, they write a bookdescription and then they send
it to me for feedback and edits.
The other publishers did notask for my feedback and edits,
(12:17):
but Amazon does.
So we'll go back and forth withboth long taglines, short
taglines and the bookdescription and I can be pretty
aggressive in those edits andthey'll typically, unless they
really strongly disagree.
But I also trust their judgmentand I know how much market
research and different thingsthat they know and are aware of.
(12:38):
So it's a good relationship.
But that's the only one whereI've had creative input into the
book description and the title.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So writing with Amazon is, is it safe to say is,
like your best experience witha traditional publisher.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, hachette was also a fantastic experience in
terms of editorially.
I worked with such fantasticeditors and I grew like my
writing skill really elevatedduring that time.
Here it was.
Also, I was coming to them veryfresh, like I'd only written
three or four books so I wasstill kind of trying to figure
out like my voice and my processand their editorial team was
(13:16):
fantastic and I really learned alot from that.
They also did a really big pushfor my books.
But with that book and thatseries that I sold to them it
was the girl in 60.
It was an erotic thriller.
It didn't have like a bookshelfin the store, like it was this.
Like booksellers just didn'tknow what to do with it.
Like do we put this in romance?
Do we put it in thrillers?
Like it has a sexy cover butit's suspenseful, like I don you
(13:48):
say right to market it.
Like created its own market andit was a market that was hard
to find.
So I don't so other than that.
But I would say that Amazon is afantastic.
I interviewed Dean Kuntz andDean has has published with a
lot of major publishers and hadlong relationships with them and
he's a big dog.
So you know when he sayssomething.
(14:09):
It's going to be like adifferent experience him working
with a publisher, than it islike, you know, a baby author, a
newer author and he's and he isnow with Amazon and me and him
were talking offline and he wasraving about them and he said
it's the best experience he'sever had.
So I really, if there's anyauthor that's thinking about
them, they are a fantasticpublisher to work with and for a
(14:29):
self-published author, theyreally kind of get us and get
our you know kind of opinionsand things like that and listen
to them a lot more than some ofthe other traditional publishers
.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I did notice that Dean Kuntz was working with
Amazon recently and I thought,oh, that would be an interesting
conversation Because, like yousaid, I mean he's kind of come
up through the traditionalpublishing, when that was all
there was, and through that,through the mill, so to speak,
(15:02):
and he's been with so manypeople, so that's very
interesting that he's reallyhaving a good experience there.
So is that?
What you're writing now, then,primarily is suspense.
I have your first suspense bookwith Amazon.
It's terrific.
Anybody interested should golook at it.
It's great.
(15:22):
I love that.
I love that genre anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, I write domestic for those listening.
I write domestic suspense underAR Torrey and yeah, that's been
my world kind of for five, five, maybe six years.
Now I'm on my sixth book withthem and it's due in four weeks.
Wow, I just finished thewriting session right before I
got on with you guys.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Well, thanks for taking the time.
Yeah, great, great.
So, transitioning a little bit,because you do have a history
of helping lots of authors andwe do want to talk a little bit
about Inkerskahn, but before weget into that, I just like to
ask you the question we ask mostof our guests, which is what is
(16:06):
the greatest roadblock that youpersonally have either
experienced or that you see inthe writers you teach and the
writers you work with?
The most common, the biggestroadblock that writers have to
overcome to move towards success?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I would say that there are two.
One is a more craft roadblock,and that roadblock at least it's
one I've dealt with and it'sone that I, that a lot of
authors that I work with, dealwith, and that is just until you
have written a certain numberof books.
It is hard for you tounderstand, like your own
process, and it's hard for youto know like what's normal for
(16:45):
you, but also what's normal likefor everyone and for me.
What I've learned is two things.
It's that I am deadlinemotivated.
If I do not have a deadline, Ijust won't write the book, like
it's just not gonna happen, likeit will eventually come out,
but it's gonna take a year and ahalf, two years where I have to
have someone that is waitingfor this book that I'm going to
(17:06):
let down if I don't deliver at acertain time.
And no matter what, no matterhow much time I'm given or
whatever else, I'm always goingto be down to the wire and I'm
always going to be writing untilthree or four in the morning
and, like you know, the lastthree days I'm going to be like
pulling 16 hour days writing,and that's just.
That's just how.
What I now know that I need inorder to be productive, and
(17:29):
that's okay.
Like I've forgiven myself forfor that.
There was like a long timewhere I was like beating myself
up over that, um.
And the second thing is that Itruly hate my book.
Um, from like 30 to 55 percentof the book, like like I'm happy
at the beginning, right, likeit's a love story like me and it
(17:49):
.
Or like, yeah, we're like doingthis thing.
And then, um, and then I getlike 30, 35% in.
And that's when I'm like God,this book is like boring.
And then I'm like, oh, my God,I hate this.
And then I'm like no one'sgoing to want to read this.
And I'm writing in the scenesare just like dragging out of me
and I'm like this is I justneed to go write this other like
(18:10):
Chinese idea that's over here,you know, and and it initially
like, thank God, that didn'thappen my first two or three
books.
But it happened on book likefour through 30.
And at that, and it just tookme a couple books to realize
like that's a normal part of myprocess, like it is normal for
me to fall out of love with mystory 30%.
And.
And now, when it happens, I'mjust like, oh, hey, like I'm at
(18:34):
that point, you know what I mean.
And then um, and then I justkeep trudging through.
And that was another thing Deansaid.
Dean said the same thing.
Like like halfway through he'slike this book's horrible.
No one wants to read this.
This is stupid.
And I was so glad he said thatbecause his books are like
brilliant works of art, you know.
Um, but, but it's so anyway.
So that's something I always,because a lot of times I talk to
authors and they're like I'mlike you know, I've gotten 100
(18:56):
pages into four different booksand then, you know, I realized
how bad they are.
And then I go write somethingelse and it's like, no, like
that's part of the process, likeit's not part of every author's
process, but a large number ofus, like you just got to get
through, you got to get past the50% point, start to be where
you're building up to the climax, and then you can fix
(19:17):
everything and rewrite.
So like maybe it is reallydraggy during that part, but
that's fine.
Like, if you're hating a scene,just write, finish the scene
later and move to the next one.
And so it just took me.
I think we lose a lot of newauthors that think because, like
, this book isn't a masterfulwork of art, they love every
scene of as they're writing itthat they're broken or this
(19:38):
book's broken and they need todo something else, and it's just
like communicating that.
That's like a normal part ofthe process, at least for me and
for a lot of the authors that Iinteract with.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's so funny that you say that, because I think
both Megan and I have said thison the podcast a hundred times.
Well, I'm about a third of theway in, and so I now know this
is the stupidest book in thehistory of the playmate, and
that's.
You know what I mean.
And you just feel that way in.
Yeah, I've even gotten to thepoint where I don't even try.
I mean, I always know the endof a book, or sort of the end of
(20:11):
a book and the opening, butwhen I get to about 30%, often I
just stop and then replot to adegree, like I rework what I
thought was going to happen,because I now realize those
characters are not going to dothat or that's just lame or
whatever the thing is.
You know.
So, but to hear that you dothat and Dean Kunst does that,
(20:35):
that just makes me feel like avalidated human being.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, and I'm actually curious too.
So I mean, I've written, Ithink 10 novels now at this
point and the one that I'mworking on right now I've gotten
kind of stuck and I realizedI'm kind of stuck at that like
50% mark and I keep trudgingthrough like I know it'll.
You know I hate the book butI'm going to get through it.
You know it's just the way itis.
But but the thing I'vediscovered is that each book has
(21:01):
a slightly different problem atthat point.
Sometimes it's that I don'tknow where it's going.
Sometimes it's that I have toomany options, sometimes it's
that I just feel like it'sreally boring and I need to just
skip ahead because I'm writingoh, they're all walking and
talking and that's nobody caresabout that, right, like.
(21:23):
So every book has a slightlydifferent problem.
But now I've written far fewerbooks than you have.
So I'm curious is that alsotrue?
Or have you noticed that inyour own process that each book
you have the same hiccup pointbut that it's a different hiccup
, or is it totally the same?
I would say no, I agree withyou.
It's not like every single bookis a new, brand new issue, but
100% like.
(21:43):
That's the other great thingabout like the more and more you
write is because it doesn't forme.
For me, normally, the 50 to 30to 50% problem is a boredom
problem.
It's like a me being like God.
The deadline at this point isso far out, like so far out, you
know, and so I'd much rather dolike this other thing, or read
this book or play this app on myphone or whatever else, and
(22:04):
it's like huh, I really don'twant to go write this book right
now and I don't have thatpressure of the deadline yet
because I'm not that close to ityet.
So for me it's more of aboredom thing.
But in every book almost almostevery book I'll run into a
craft hiccup like that, and alot of times it's I don't know
my characters well enough, likethey're just not like real
(22:27):
people in my head yet.
So it's hard when, like, theyget into an argument or
something else, like I justdon't really know how they're
going to react.
And I'm trying to figure thatout as I go.
So a lot of times I'll justkind of I'll have times where
I'm just sitting like thinkingabout, like trying to find a
mental muse for this person ortrying to kind of figure out.
Like, who is this person Like?
What kind of clothes do theywear?
(23:01):
Like you know, are they bitchyor, you know, are they grouchy
or are they something else youknow?
So it's just trying tounderstand them more and so
that's so.
That's like my craft issue, my.
The other side that is a majorroadblock for me and my
character and a lot of authors,is that I am successful like
despite myself.
I, in terms of I wrote from thefirst 25 books that I wrote, I
wrote whatever I felt likewriting and it was like you know
(23:21):
, it was like an enemies tolovers, seeming romance, and
then it was like a slow burn,you know, friends to lovers, and
then I wrote like a romanticsuspense.
Then I wrote a dark romance andthen I wrote.
It was like readers less themlike, followed me and continued
to buy my books, but it helpedthat I was publishing four books
a year but I had no brand tospeak of, like my.
(23:45):
You could not put me in anysort of a bucket with any
consistency whatsoever, becauseevery book other than all being
sexy romances or sexy with anelement of romance, I was also
writing like sexy thrillerswhere I was like killing off the
hero.
So like there just wasn't anyconsistency, which meant every
(24:06):
time I was starting a new book,like my readers didn't know what
to expect.
I didn't have consistency in mymarketing, I didn't have
consistency in my delivery, andthat, like I would, I sat down
at a lunch, at one at our firstCon and with an Amazon rep and
he told me.
He said the authors that arekilling it.
(24:28):
They're hitting like theirsweet spot.
And then in that sweet spotmight be like Scottish
Highlander romance with abrother's best friend, and
they're writing that same bookover and over and over again.
Like I mean, the story isdifferent but they're hitting
that, that market and that nicheand that specific like drill
(24:49):
down as far as you can.
And they're doing it over andover and over again.
It's not just right, a sweetChristian romance, that's, you
know, in a small town.
It's like on a ranch withcowboys and everyone needs to be
like on a ranch with cowboys.
And I was like, oh yeah, and Ijust completely threw away that
advice Like that, you know if Ilike sat down and but I was this
(25:09):
like creative muse that wasdoing what I want.
I was hurting myself so muchlike AR Tori I'm behaving with.
I am writing domestic suspenseset in California with wealthy
people.
That is my niche.
You know what I mean and I'mdoing it every time and I'm
growing that audience and thatloyalty and consistency.
But I wish that was something Ihad done 10 years ago and, to
(25:32):
be honest, I didn't know what Iwanted to write 10 years ago, so
I don't think I could have.
But the earlier you can findwhat it is that you love to
write, that your readers love toread from you, it's easy for
you to write and you can stickthere Like that's what you need
to do.
And Melanie Harlow, who's anumber one Amazon bestselling
author and extremely smart andsavvy businesswoman, she talks
(25:55):
about it like like writing cake.
Like her books are like cake.
You know they're light andfunny and sweet and you know
they just hit the spot.
She's like there are days whenI wake up and I want to write
spaghetti.
Like I don't want to write cake.
Like I don't feel like writingcake.
You know I want to writesomething else.
I want to write tiramisu.
She's like, and I don't.
I write cake because cake iswhat is paying my mortgage and
(26:17):
cake is what is putting my kidsthrough college, and cake is
what my readers want, and itdoesn't really matter what
Melanie Harlow feels like onthat Wednesday, like that's.
She needs to write cake and andthat's you know, I'm still.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I'm slowly figuring out like what my cake is series,
and one of them is funnier andone of them is less funny.
That's being relaunched, butbut they all have murders in
them.
I don't know.
It's like I, I think I I atleast narrowed myself down to
that.
(27:03):
But but you're right, likedrilling down really into the,
the nichier sub sub sub genre,that that is a place to really
grow an audience.
I think that's really to theniche-ier sub-sub-sub genre,
that is a place to really growan audience.
I think that's really.
It's just hard to do, though,because I think authors get
bored like anybody else.
Yeah, and writing cake over andover again, it's like I really
(27:25):
don't want cake, you know.
Like she said, I want dinner,I'm tired of dessert.
You know you want to dosomething else.
So that is.
That is tricky, so how do youhelp?
So, first of all, before I getto that, I wanted to mention
your one about the deadline.
So, since you have a lot of ordid anyway have a lot of
independently published books,how did you get around that
(27:49):
deadline thing?
Because, as an independentlypublished author, you are your
deadline by and large.
So what'd you do?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Well, I, um, I would announce, as soon as I was,
10,000 words into a book where Iwas like, okay, like, this book
has enough legs.
Like the idea is like, pretty,I'm a pantser, but the idea is
like, pretty well developed.
Like I have an idea of like howthis book is going to end in
these characters.
Um, at that point in time, I'ma pantser, but the idea is like,
pretty well developed.
Like I have an idea of like howthis book is going to end in
these characters.
At that point in time, I wouldboth book an editor, but I'd
(28:17):
also set a release date andannounce it to my readers.
And at that time I waspublishing four books a year and
I had a very active andvoracious reader base.
That like would have held meaccountable not intentionally,
but like it was, was like every,every and, and I talked about
that book the whole time I waswriting it.
So it was like, oh, I just hada great scene in this, or I'd
(28:37):
give them like a little likeparagraph excerpt, sneak peek,
you know, and I would talk aboutlike my muses and things like
that.
So they're constantly asking melike, when is this going to
release?
When is this going to release,or I just placed my pre order or
whatever, and so I had thatpressure and also, at the time,
publishing four books a year,like I needed to publish that
(28:59):
next book so that we could payour bills.
You know what I mean it was like.
So I knew that if I didn't getthis book out, you know, then I,
you know it was going to stressme out financially.
So, um, so that was what I didwhen I was indie.
Now I only I've only publishedone book a year because I have
so many other businesses thatare going on, so my writing time
(29:19):
is much more limited.
And if, if a book didn'tsucceed like it's not going to
make or break me financially, um, so it's so.
Now my public, my publishersthough I have those contracts
with the publishers and I havemy agent breathing down my neck,
so I have those deadlines.
That way I don't have thefinancial stress of it.
But at the time in which I wasin straight indie, I had a lot
(29:43):
of those sort of those pressures.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, so that was a good segue into all these other
businesses that you mentioned.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout InkersCon, like what was
the brainchild of that con andhow did you start it?
Why did you start it, all ofthe things?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So InkersCon, for anyone listening, is an events
company for authors.
So we do educational events, wedo free webinars, we do new
author boot camps and we do anannual conference.
That's in Dallas each year butit's also available to attend
online.
And it started, let's see, whenI was about 10 books in, when I
(30:27):
started in 2012,.
There was no resources forauthors.
I mean there just wasn't anylike.
We didn't have like we had KDPforums and like there was one
author that had like a blog JAConrad had a blog and it was
like and that was kind of it,but it was like, you know, I
(30:48):
mean there just wasn't anyresources.
So first few years I wasted alot of money on marketing
efforts that didn't work and theonly way I learned is I would
just like plow forward until Ihit a wall.
It was like I was blind.
I would plow forward until Ihit a wall and then I would turn
and I would just until I couldmove forward again, and then I
would just go forward until Ihit another wall.
(31:08):
And then that was like how Inavigated through things and I
was like man if I ever figurethis out, like I'm gonna have a
writing for dummies, like book,or series or something.
It's like how to write a bookfor dummies, how to market a
book for dummies, and so, like,maybe in 2015 or 16, I came out
with three courses like how towrite, how to market, how to
(31:29):
publish, and so that was likethe initial start and I quickly
learned how little I knew.
Like it was a great processmaking those courses because it
really caused me to examine myprocess.
Like how do I write a book?
Like, how do I come up with aplot, how do I tell a scene and
put a scene on paper.
But I realized, like I know alot about what I do, but I want
(31:50):
to know, know, like, what XYZ isdoing, who's like killing it in
audiobook sales you know what Imean.
Or like what, like what's upwith subscriptions and how does
that work.
And so initially, the thought Igot together with my sister,
who's also a project manager andshe had been like my business
advisor for she's been mybusiness advisor for decades and
it was like what, if we like,did a summit?
(32:13):
That was the original thoughtlike we'll do a summit, we'll
bring together, like all ofthese top names in different
areas and we'll record, becauseI wanted to have consistency of
video.
We'll record all of them givinga presentation on a certain
topic and then we'll package ittogether and release it online.
So that was the originalthought.
But then it was like, well, ifwe're bringing everybody to one
spot, like we should at leastlet some like authors come and
(32:35):
watch in the audience.
You know what I mean.
Like so, and then, before weknew it, like then I was like
what if we just did like camethree days early and we did
something for new authors and itwas like a bootcamp, and before
we knew it, like we had a fullfledged five day event, um and
but the focus was always onthose online attendees, like
from the beginning.
So, and then the next year wehad COVID and we were ahead of
(33:00):
the game of everyone becausewe'd already gone through an
online conference and we alreadyhad everything in place.
So we already had ticketing andaccess points and how to do
chat and that sort of thing.
So it evolved and expanded towhat it is today, which is we do
have our live event, but it'svery small.
We only have max of 200attendees.
It's in Dallas, but we havefilm and videographer crews that
(33:23):
are like 15 people deep thatrecord everything and package it
and then we release it to ourdigital audience.
And the digital audience is atwo-week long launch that has
attendee-led roundtables.
We have dozens, if not hundreds, of live video author chats.
We have experts come in and doQ&As, we have companies like
(33:44):
Amazon and other retailers comein and do Q&As and it's just
like two weeks of nonstop eventsyou can attend from anywhere in
the world online and you haveaccess to all of the videos and
all the presentations for sixyears.
So even if you're like notready for AMS ads or you're not
interested in a Kickstarterright now, but in two or three
(34:07):
years, like you're ready to selfhub foreign translations, like
you can watch that video then.
So that was kind of where itstarted and then what it has
grown into and what we havetoday.
I think that's actually reallyinteresting that you started
with that online focus first,because I mean you hear about
the online summits, right, whichare online first, I suppose,
(34:30):
but to have like a livein-person conference with the
quality of experts and speakersthat you bring in um, you know
normally like that's the bigticket event, that's the thing
that you know the organizer isreally making the money on
making the money on, and sothat's what they focus on.
But I love that it's moreonline they focus on, but I love
(34:54):
that it's more online geared oronline focused, online, you
know, geared toward thoseattendees.
So what kind of I guess onlinecommunity benefits does the con
offer?
I love that question Becausethat was I had attended like
summits.
I had attended During COVID.
I attended a lot of onlineconferences but they were very
(35:14):
like disconnected, right.
It was like, okay, here's somelinks and click on some things,
and there's some like there'salways like a Facebook group or
something like that you know,but it's not.
I mean, what I wanted was Iwanted to spark as many of those
like moments that you do get ata live conference, where it's
like you're on the elevator andyou're chatting with somebody
(35:35):
you know and it's like, oh, Ijust made like a new friend, but
I also I'm an author.
Now I'm very outgoing, but whenI came into this business in
2012, I was a very quiet,introverted person and when I
went to my first author'sconference, it was like
terrifying to me, like I didn'tknow anyone and you still do
have those moments.
It's one of the reasons why wekeep Inkers Con so small is
(35:57):
because it can be hard if you'renot coming in with a group like
to.
I'm not someone, I wasn'tsomeone who was going to walk
into a room and be like hi, I'mAlessandra.
Hi, what do you write?
You know, like that just wasn'tme, Like I was like I'm just
going to sneak away and go up tomy room and hide, you know,
during these classes.
So so it was.
It was we wanted to create aplace where introverts, but also
(36:18):
just people who didn't have themeans or ability to travel,
like you know, you live in NewZealand or you have kids and you
have a job and you can't likedrop everything and fly
somewhere and spend a weekendaway from, like your
responsibilities.
So, to answer your question,because I have not, yet we we
have as many, as manyinteractive events as possible.
(36:40):
So an example is we have ourmeet and greets, which are like
kind of speed dating, like weall come into a group and then
it's like and then we divideinto like smaller breakout rooms
of three to 10 authors and it'sall by a certain thing.
It might be that you're all sixfigure authors, or you're all
sci-fi authors, or you're alldebut authors or whatever it is.
But we try to pair and breakeverybody into smaller groups
(37:04):
and then they go through likediscussion questions Like what's
the one thing you really wantto focus on this year at the
conference that you want tolearn about, or what's your
number one tip for fellowauthors, or something like that.
So there's a series of likeconversations that they have and
we all come back to the mainroom, shuffle them again and
then they go back out.
So those are like our meet andgreets and then our attendee led
roundtables.
(37:25):
Any attendee who's attending theconference can create a
roundtable on a certain topic.
So an example might be likeKindle unlimited marketing
strategies and they're like Iwant to get together with other
authors and talk about this.
And so Tuesday at seven o'clockwe're going to meet and we have
Zoom rooms that they can useand any attendee can sign up.
They can read the descriptions,they can sign up and those like
(37:48):
we started them this first yearexpecting like I don't know
someone to participate andthey've just gone gangbusters,
like some years we have 200 ofthem.
One year they had one.
Ask the guys where.
It was like four guys.
It was like ask us anyquestions that you want and it
lasted for two and a half hours,wow, and it was like like I was
(38:10):
getting so many messages.
They're like have you gone intoask the guys that's seen the
conversations?
They were the most respectful,best group of guys that could
possibly have done thatconversation, but they were
sharing everything.
I mean, like it was a lot ofromance authors asking them very
personal questions and theywere.
They understood that it, likeit was.
It was just a great.
It was a great experience.
Um, but we have everything.
(38:30):
Sometimes it's just like I wantto meet fellow authors in
Australia, you know, or I'mattending an international book
(38:53):
Digital Con is.
We do regular writing sprintsevery day.
You can come and join.
We also have like businessmeetings and plannings,
accountability sessions, thingslike that.
So it's just, it is a full packtwo weeks where if you don't
meet people and make someconnections, like it's hard.
It's hard not to.
It's as much if you want toparticipate or as much as you
(39:13):
don't.
Some attendees they just buy it, they watch the classes and we
don't ever see them, but someattend, you know, wow,
everything that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, that really is.
It's a very differentperspective and a very different
approach and I really like it.
And, like you said, what timeyou know you have had very good
timing in your life.
There must be somebody smilingdown on you, alessandra, because
(39:46):
you know, with writing thatsteamy book right after Fifty
Shades and having that thingtake off, and then with this
like planning this digitalconference right before COVID,
it was like almost as ifsomething in you knew.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Like I know, covid was a blessing and a curse.
I mean, it was obviously acurse in a lot of ways, like for
everyone.
But in terms of our business,it went from us being kind of
like the only full scale onlineconference in town to being like
every conference suddenly waslike okay, we have these tickets
sold.
Okay, we have these ticketssold.
How do we pivot to digital?
You know what I mean.
(40:17):
And so that first year I meanand, and the subsequent years
and also people got Zoom fatigue, you know.
So, like, by the time we're inour third year after COVID, like
we really saw a dip in numbers,because I think people were at
that point like I need to getout of the house, like I don't
want a third Zoom meeting if mylife cannot.
Yeah, now we've even backed out.
(40:37):
Like we're okay with, you know,with retreating back inside and
getting online.
But it was a really interestingride and but it helped that,
yeah, we didn't have thatlearning curve that first year
when everything was just goingcrazy with COVID.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, have that learning curve, that first year
when everything was just goingcrazy with COVID, yeah, yeah,
well, now, actually, I'm kind oftangential question here too
Did you find that because ofCOVID, the tools and the systems
that you had available to youimproved dramatically?
Or, like you know the leaps andbounds in technology, like I
hate to put it in this way, butin war, right, they always say
that that's when you have thebiggest technological advances.
I feel like COVID was maybekind of the same, but also, I
don't run conferences, so Idon't really know.
(41:20):
You think so, but like Zoomended up like the second year,
or we had all of these likecrazy new things that come and
then we would try them, and thenwe'd just go back to zoom, like
it was like, and then, like um,we looked at an all-in-one
platform and we tried it for twomonths and it was like, so
(41:41):
glitchy, it was like we justwent back to our like
squarespace site.
You know, yeah, um, we still usethe same membership program.
Now we've switched, but we usethe same membership program for
four years, even after covid.
So, yeah, I.
But what did help, I think, iswhere people's like familiarity,
like before, like with our veryfirst year, which was pre COVID
.
Like a lot of people didn'thave Zoom accounts like unless
(42:03):
they worked in a businesssetting, like that wasn't just.
Like there were a lot of peoplethat had never used Zoom before
.
Where post COVID it was, youknow, it was much more
commonplace.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, yeah, everybody yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Or they had kids used it for school and they were
like I'll, I'll help you out.
Yeah Well, so we do have someexciting news for our listeners.
Why don't you tell them alittle bit about the offer for
the AuthorWheel community?
Absolutely so, if you'reinterested in attending
(42:37):
CurseConseCon online.
Our digital launch is mid-Julyand currently prices are $249
for that ticket.
But if you are an AuthorWheelcommunity member, you can save
$50, which will drop it down to$199.
And the coupon code for that, Ihave it right here, is WHEEL50.
So if, at checkout, you'll justgo, you'll have to create a
(42:58):
username and password, I believe, and then at the checkout just
put WHEEL, all caps 50, nospaces, and that'll save you $50
.
And you can use that either onthe payment plan we do have a
payment plan that breaks it intotwo payments or you can do it
just in the single pay.
Either way, you'll get instantaccess, and I say instant access
.
If you want to sign up beforelaunch, then you can have full
(43:21):
access to those two weeks oflive events.
But if you're listening to anolder version of this or you're
listening to this after the fact, you can jump in after the
launch and you'll justimmediately unlock all of the
round table recordings and allof the presentations.
And it's important to say thatIngressCon is for fiction
authors that write in adultgenres.
(43:41):
I don't mean steamy adult, Imean like not children's books.
So adult fiction genres, andthat's really our core focus.
And our four pillars aremarketing, business, advertising
, classes and writing.
So those are the craft, sothose are the four major areas
that our content covers.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Do you have a?
Speaker 2 (44:01):
couple of the keynote or maybe headliner
presentations that you can kindof share, like what you've
already planned so far.
Absolutely so, and I shouldhave said to find out more, you
can go to incursconcom and youcan see our full lineup there,
but in terms of speakers thisyear.
So again, we have four majorareas writing, marketing, craft
(44:25):
and business.
And so we have speakers likeAngel Lawson she's the number
one Amazon bestseller.
She's doing a presentation onhow to build super fans.
Becca Smythe if you've everheard Becca speak, she is a
fantastic mental coach and she'stalking about ways that you can
overcome being overwhelmed,feelings of overwhelmed, which
(44:48):
is really fantastic.
Gina Darlene, who is a numberalso huge bestseller.
She's talking about secrets ofsuccessful world building.
She's also on our vault, whichis like six bestselling authors
like LT Ryan that are sharing,kind of answering attendee
questions and sharing just allof the different aspects that
lead to success but also thatcan hurt your career.
(45:09):
So and then we have, likeCadence Snow, another big
bestseller Laura Hidalgo, who'sa cover designer, who's talking
about data driven cover design.
Facebook ads with Matthew JHolmes.
That's a really fantasticpresentation, whether you're a
newbie to Facebook ads or moreexperienced career.
(45:30):
Perrier Jonte.
He's a seven figure annualearner and he talks all about
direct sales.
Yeah, so just and on and on.
Well, that's, that's fabulous.
We've had Becca Seim andMatthew J Holmes on the podcast
in the past.
So to any listeners, just goback and search through the
archives because you can get asneak peek at you know some of
(45:51):
the things they might be talkingabout.
And then I guarantee, if you golisten to them, you're going to
be like, okay, I need to takethe course.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, in fact, the first place that I ever heard
Matthew was on an Inkers Con.
It was a mini con that I wentto it was mini con.
Yeah, I went to the mini conand I heard him and I was like,
oh, I think I could do this.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
He's like a dream, like he's just a dream to work
with.
He's so, um, he's attending.
I'm really excited to meet himin Dallas.
Um, he's attending with hiswife and um, just a really great
guy.
Um.
But yeah, breaks it down andit's really interesting.
I won't give away like thesecrets of his presentation.
Well, one I haven't seen it yet, but just in our conversations.
(46:41):
Like he's teaching a very likehands off approach that's only
going to take you like five to10 minutes a day to maintain and
it's going to be well worthseeing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
And I will say that I bought his class after we
interviewed him on our podcastand I mean he literally
transformed my income.
I mean I went from making verylow numbers and it's not like
I'm a seven figure author now,but my goal was consistent money
(47:09):
.
And then I figured, once I hadconsistent money I could figure
out how to scale it.
And I have had consistent moneyand consistently edging up
money.
And then I figured, once I hadconsistent money I could figure
out how to scale it.
And I have had consistent moneyand consistently edging up
money.
And I do credit Matt's class,even with the Metapocalypse
that's happening right now.
I mean it's like it's a wildworld right now.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It is a wild world, but he and his yeah anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And Becca, I mean, she's just, she's just the bomb.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, becca's like an angel.
I mean she is, she's.
So I can't say enough nicethings about her.
I mean I really just can't.
She's fantastic and she's sucha she's just like a great person
, like you know.
I mean just like she has such agreat aura and yeah, and she's
brilliant, she's absolutelybrilliant.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, and just listening to her is like taking
a yoga class.
That's me.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
You're like, I'm in good hands, everything will be
okay.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
It's very zen.
She's very zen, yeah, she'slike she's the bomb, so that is
really great.
Well, that sounds like it'sgoing to be a fantastic
conference and I hope all youpeople in the listening audience
take advantage of it.
And remember we'll have thelink in the show notes.
It is wheel, all uppercaseletters, 50, no spaces, and we
(48:29):
will have all of the links thatAlessandra gives us in the show
notes.
Is there any last tidbits ofamazing wisdom you want to like
throw out there at our audiencebefore we?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
I would just say that it's a constantly changing
industry and that can be goodand bad.
It could change, you know, in aweek like to your favor, and it
could change, you know, in away that that can hurt you.
But what's important is justlike that we remember why we're
in this and for some of us, likeyou, may have gotten in it to
(49:04):
become rich and famous, but formost of us it's because, like
you, love stories and you lovereading stories and you love
telling stories and we can.
That's one thing we can control, like we can control that.
And as long as we're having agood time and not putting too
much pressure on our books andthat's that's our job on the
other aspects of our life, right, like keeping keeping that
(49:25):
pressure off of our books thenyou can be in it for a long time
and it can really be just sucha fantastic part like of your
life.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, I love that.
That's really good and, I alsothink, being always open to
continuing to educate yourself.
Yeah, because, as you said,things are always changing, so
and a great way to do that wouldbe to just go ahead and sign up
for InkersCon.
Little commercial there.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
It is true that the more you know, the easier
everything is Like it's.
That's just the way it is Likethe more you know, the easier
and the more you can learn fromfellow authors, because and
that's why it's so great to havelike a small group, like if you
can find a small group ofauthors that are in the same
place in their career and kindof like ideally in the same
genre, and you guys can growtogether because even their
(50:14):
failures, like you can learnfrom that.
And it's also great to knowthat you're not like the only
one facing these sort of things.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, it's me and Dean Coons that we don't like.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah, okay, well, that was.
This was so inspiring and sogreat.
So, to all you listeners outthere, I just want to remind you
of something Alessandra said,which when she was talking about
how she wished she'd known thatshe needed to create her brand
(50:45):
and that she wished she'd knownthat she needed to peck her
thing and just do it.
If you're struggling with that,we do have a free course on our
website.
It's called Seven Steps toClarity Uncover your Author
Purpose, and it will lead you in.
Every day you'll get a newlesson and it will lead you
(51:07):
through some questions to askyourself some different ways to
think about things, to help youcome up with a basic author
mission statement and then eventake that mission statement and
distill it into a tagline.
It's kind of fun and, as I said, it's free.
So hop on over toauthorwheelcom and sign up and,
(51:28):
until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boras, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Today we have a surprise summerbonus episode for you all with
Alessandra Torre.
So we're still on summer break,so we don't have a regular
intro.
We don't have an update becauseI don't know what I'm doing
right now as this airs.
So we're still on summer break,so we don't have a regular
intro.
We don't have an update becauseI don't know what I'm doing
right now as this airs, so we'rejust going to dive around
(00:30):
Europe.
Yeah, maybe, maybe.
So we're going to just diveright into the interview.
So, in case you don't alreadyknow her, alessandra is a New
York Times, wall Street Journaland USA Today bestselling author
of more than 30 novels.
In addition to writing, she'sthe co-founder of Authors, ai
(00:50):
and InkersCon.
So welcome, alessandra, we areso excited to have you here
today.
Thank you, guys.
I'm so excited to be here.
I love talking shop, so it'sgreat to be able to talk about
writing and authoring you guys.
Well, good, because we're goingto go off on all sorts of
different tangents.
I can already guarantee it.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yes, we are the rabbit trail queens.
Yeah yeah.
In fact I was thinking aboutrenaming the podcast instead of
the author wheel, the rabbittrail queens, but then people
might think we were hunting orsomething terrible like that.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah it kind of takes away the whole like writing
author thing.
Yeah, it kind of takes away thewhole like writing author thing
.
Anyway, why don't we get backon track?
So, alessandra, why don't youtell us a little bit more about
your journey into writing?
Absolutely.
So I started in 2012.
I was 28.
And I was like in between jobs,I was trying to figure out, kind
(01:43):
of what I wanted to do with mylife.
My husband had sold a companythat I worked for, so I didn't
have like I was just at thislike crossroads where it was
like, oh, like, is thereanything you ever really wanted
to do?
Like we were in this kind ofrare position where, like I
could take some time to figureout what I wanted to do and I
did not think about writing.
I was thinking about all sortsof other things and but
(02:11):
self-publishing was like reallycatching attention in the media
and I read an article that saidEL James was making like a
million dollars a day off FiftyShades of Grey.
I had read Fifty Shades of Greyand I was like you know, maybe
I could like try writing a book,and I wasn't thinking that I
would do it for a job, I wasthinking it would just be a fun
thing, like I could write thisbook, no one could know about it
.
I could release it, no onewould have to know about it if
it flopped, whatever.
(02:31):
If it did well, whatever.
So I did, I wrote a book in sixweeks.
It was called BlindfoldedInnocence.
I read it a few times I waslike, yeah, this sounds good.
And I published it like noeditor.
No, I had no training inwriting.
It was really just like I satdown and kind of vomited out
(02:52):
this love story, which was crazy, because I really had expected
to write a suspense novel,because that was just what I
always read was suspense.
So I did not know anythingabout writing to market.
I did not know the rules ofromance.
Um, I broke a lot of the rulesof romance in that book, um, but
I self-published it and it soldlike three to five copies a day
(03:15):
for a while.
It slowly worked up, like itstarted getting reviews.
It slowly worked up to like 30or 40 copies a day.
And then, um, and then I went.
We had a weekend trip that wewere going on, so it as anyone
knows who's listening.
If you're an author, especiallya new author, you can get like
obsessed with checking yoursales, like it's just something
(03:36):
I would do.
Like every 15 minutes I'drefresh the page to see if
someone had bought another book.
Um, and so I obsessivelychecked my, my, my sales all
morning and then, right beforewe got in the car to get on this
road trip, I was like you know,I think I'm gonna write a new
book description and I just likejotted out a new book
description.
I didn't put much thought intoit.
(03:57):
I had never changed my bookdescription before, but I wrote
a different book description,you know, refreshed it on KDP,
and then we got in the car andwe left, and seven hours later
we arrived in Memphis and Ichecked in.
This is 2012.
So I didn't have like interneton my phone.
I mean, I had some sort ofsmartphone, but anyways, by the
time I got settled and checkedmy sales, I had sold like 130
(04:18):
copies like during that thatride, and I was convinced like
something had broken in thesystem.
Right, like any moment I'mgoing to get an email from
Amazon.
They're like never mind, thatwas a mistake.
But then by the time I went tobed, I sold like 500 copies, and
it was.
And then the next day I sold1000 copies, and then the next
day I sold 2000 copies andbefore I knew it, like I had
(04:39):
sold 30,000 copies.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Chimney Christmas.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
That's great.
Yeah, wow, yeah, and it was allbecause I changed my book
description and it was that onething.
It was like it.
I had at the time a reallyclickbaity cover.
Like the cover definitely likegrabbed your attention.
It was I had the distinct honorof being the first band cover.
They didn't even know what todo.
(05:05):
This is again.
This is 2012.
This was like early days and mybook was suddenly like in the
top 10 of Amazon and it was veryscandalous and I think Amazon
was like what do we do?
Like we can't have you know,like visitors and children
coming to this page and seeingthis like sexy cover, but they
didn't, like they didn't haveprocesses in place, like it took
three weeks and suddenly mybook just disappeared.
(05:27):
Like we couldn't find it unlessyou had the direct URL.
It didn't work, didn't come upand search and it took another
two weeks from at the time.
Then I had an agent by thattime and then we actually like
we were going to auction and wesold that book to a publisher
and all this like my book bookgot banned like three days
before the auction.
It was an exciting time, but itwas basically that moment where
(05:48):
it was like, oh my gosh, likethis is my new career, like I
wasn't expecting it.
It didn't happen, but it goesto show the power of literally.
I didn't spend a dollar, I justchanged my book description and
it showed me how many peoplehad been clicking on my cover
and then reading the bookdescription and be like, yeah,
you know, and I was selling,despite myself that, 15 to 30
sales a day, um, and once Ichanged that book description,
(06:10):
it was like the missing pieceand my and literally like
birthed my entire career.
Um, because at that point intime it was like, okay, this is
my new job.
I sold that book for multiplesix figures to a publisher.
Um, and it was like, okay, nowI have this like bucket of money
, like I don't need to go backto work.
I literally made enough foreight years of salary.
(06:33):
And then I just wrote booksfrom then on and continued
self-publishing.
I continued to occasionallysell those books after release
to publishers.
That doesn't work anymore, butback then they were buying it.
You know, if it was successful,they would buy it after the
fact.
Wow, well, that is quite a story, so I'm sure everybody
listening, including me, wantsto know what's the secret sauce
(06:59):
on the book description yeah,yeah, I get asked that all the
time and went like you know thetime when I was doing it wasn't
like I was like this is themoment that's gonna change my
entire career in my life.
You know, like I didn't, Ididn't even know I was doing
anything like, so I never savedthe original book description
before I changed it.
Like five or six years ago Isat down with like the Goodreads
(07:21):
library and I was like please,like I know that y'all have
historically somewhere like thefirst blurb there was for this
book and she dug around and Ithink we found like the first
and the second and thedifference was the second was
much, much like it leaned muchheavier on the sexual
relationship between the couple.
(07:43):
And again this was this was likea super, like scandalous cover
and so I think people wereclicking on this super sexy
cover and then they're readingthis description.
That was like tame and like thetwo things didn't fit.
So when we changed that bookdescription to match the cover,
when we, when I changed thatbook description to match the
cover, then it was, you know,all lights green.
(08:06):
You know there wasn't thatdisconnect and that was what it
took.
So it sounds to me like it wasfirst off, you know, finding
your niche right, like you knewyou were romance, you had the
sexy cover, then bringing it allinto alignment and once you had
all of that together, it workedtogether.
(08:26):
Yeah, I mean, I guess I meanthat seems so obvious when you
say it out loud.
It was a brilliant analysis,yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
But the thing is is that all of us, I think we're
very close to our work and so itis very difficult.
I mean, there's a lot offabulous writers who can write
an 80,000 word book and then,you know, just want to pull out
their eyebrows when it comes towriting a book description.
They're just like.
I can't do this.
(08:56):
So it does make a kind of sensethat that, and maybe because
you had published it and steppedaway yeah Well, you hadn't
actually stepped away, you wereimpulsively or compulsively
refreshing your Amazon page, butit's still.
You know you'd stepped awayfrom the story, so to speak.
It was easier for you to comein with a new blurb, so maybe
(09:18):
that's.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And I'd also read reviews.
It really wasn't an intelligentprocess but I think, despite
myself, I had read every reviewthere had ever been for my book
you know what I mean Like threetimes.
So I knew like that peoplereally liked like the main
character, you know the mainhero or the hero.
So that I played a lot up in myblurb and and I think about the
(09:42):
cavalierness that I publishedthe book, like I, without any
editing, without any like realknowledge on how to write a book
.
I had just read, I had read mywhole life.
I knew like what I liked in astory, how a story should be
told.
But I'm pretty sure I wrotethat first book description with
very little thought, like Ithink I was just like, oh, you
(10:02):
know, I didn't have anyexperience writing book
descriptions.
So by the time I wrote thesecond one, which was like six
weeks in eight weeks in, I had Ihad written more because I've
been writing more at that pointin time in the sequel and I was
just a little bit more marketingsavvy than I was initially and
I think there was just a littlemore like care that went into
that.
So now having I mean, you'veworked with traditional
(10:25):
publishers they bought.
You know at least a few of yourbooks.
Do you find that like?
Do the traditional publisherscome in and make changes to that
description?
Do you find that that teamwork,having that extra pair of eyes,
is actually helpful, or arethey still at this point, you
know, mostly relying on what youput together yourself first?
So every publisher I've workedwith has been different.
(10:54):
I will say that my first I usedto say when I give like webinars
or classes, or I wouldintroduce myself, I would say
that I am hybrid.
I'm traditionally published andindependently published, but
I've always found my biggestsuccess was self-publishing.
Every time I pick up the NewYork Times list, it was with a
self-published book.
My traditionally publishedbooks typically flopped.
They all did really, reallypoorly.
I've never earned out Well.
(11:15):
I used to say that I've neverearned out in advance like on my
traditionally published books.
That all changed when I signedwith Amazon.
So Amazon has been my published.
So I also write under AR Tori.
Those are my suspense books.
I haven't written a romance bookin years and Amazon's imprint,
thomas and Mercer's theirmystery thriller imprint, and
(11:36):
they have published my last fivebooks.
It's a completely differentanimal Like they are.
It's just their process.
They are very much more ofalmost a self-publishing mindset
in terms of like nimble, beingnimble and really watching the
market.
So with my, with Hachette andwith Harlequin, with all three
(11:57):
I've never written a blurb thatI had.
When they came in and purchasedit, they jumped and they wrote
their own.
With Amazon, they write a bookdescription and then they send
it to me for feedback and edits.
The other publishers did notask for my feedback and edits,
(12:17):
but Amazon does.
So we'll go back and forth withboth long taglines, short
taglines and the bookdescription and I can be pretty
aggressive in those edits andthey'll typically, unless they
really strongly disagree.
But I also trust their judgmentand I know how much market
research and different thingsthat they know and are aware of.
(12:38):
So it's a good relationship.
But that's the only one whereI've had creative input into the
book description and the title.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So writing with Amazon is, is it safe to say is,
like your best experience witha traditional publisher.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, hachette was also a fantastic experience in
terms of editorially.
I worked with such fantasticeditors and I grew like my
writing skill really elevatedduring that time.
Here it was.
Also, I was coming to them veryfresh, like I'd only written
three or four books so I wasstill kind of trying to figure
out like my voice and my processand their editorial team was
(13:16):
fantastic and I really learned alot from that.
They also did a really big pushfor my books.
But with that book and thatseries that I sold to them it
was the girl in 60.
It was an erotic thriller.
It didn't have like a bookshelfin the store, like it was this.
Like booksellers just didn'tknow what to do with it.
Like do we put this in romance?
Do we put it in thrillers?
Like it has a sexy cover butit's suspenseful, like I don you
(13:48):
say right to market it.
Like created its own market andit was a market that was hard
to find.
So I don't so other than that.
But I would say that Amazon is afantastic.
I interviewed Dean Kuntz andDean has has published with a
lot of major publishers and hadlong relationships with them and
he's a big dog.
So you know when he sayssomething.
(14:09):
It's going to be like adifferent experience him working
with a publisher, than it islike, you know, a baby author, a
newer author and he's and he isnow with Amazon and me and him
were talking offline and he wasraving about them and he said
it's the best experience he'sever had.
So I really, if there's anyauthor that's thinking about
them, they are a fantasticpublisher to work with and for a
(14:29):
self-published author, theyreally kind of get us and get
our you know kind of opinionsand things like that and listen
to them a lot more than some ofthe other traditional publishers
.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I did notice that Dean Kuntz was working with
Amazon recently and I thought,oh, that would be an interesting
conversation Because, like yousaid, I mean he's kind of come
up through the traditionalpublishing, when that was all
there was, and through that,through the mill, so to speak,
(15:02):
and he's been with so manypeople, so that's very
interesting that he's reallyhaving a good experience there.
So is that?
What you're writing now, then,primarily is suspense.
I have your first suspense bookwith Amazon.
It's terrific.
Anybody interested should golook at it.
It's great.
(15:22):
I love that.
I love that genre anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, I write domestic for those listening.
I write domestic suspense underAR Torrey and yeah, that's been
my world kind of for five, five, maybe six years.
Now I'm on my sixth book withthem and it's due in four weeks.
Wow, I just finished thewriting session right before I
got on with you guys.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Well, thanks for taking the time.
Yeah, great, great.
So, transitioning a little bit,because you do have a history
of helping lots of authors andwe do want to talk a little bit
about Inkerskahn, but before weget into that, I just like to
ask you the question we ask mostof our guests, which is what is
(16:06):
the greatest roadblock that youpersonally have either
experienced or that you see inthe writers you teach and the
writers you work with?
The most common, the biggestroadblock that writers have to
overcome to move towards success?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I would say that there are two.
One is a more craft roadblock,and that roadblock at least it's
one I've dealt with and it'sone that I, that a lot of
authors that I work with, dealwith, and that is just until you
have written a certain numberof books.
It is hard for you tounderstand, like your own
process, and it's hard for youto know like what's normal for
(16:45):
you, but also what's normal likefor everyone and for me.
What I've learned is two things.
It's that I am deadlinemotivated.
If I do not have a deadline, Ijust won't write the book, like
it's just not gonna happen, likeit will eventually come out,
but it's gonna take a year and ahalf, two years where I have to
have someone that is waitingfor this book that I'm going to
(17:06):
let down if I don't deliver at acertain time.
And no matter what, no matterhow much time I'm given or
whatever else, I'm always goingto be down to the wire and I'm
always going to be writing untilthree or four in the morning
and, like you know, the lastthree days I'm going to be like
pulling 16 hour days writing,and that's just.
That's just how.
What I now know that I need inorder to be productive, and
(17:29):
that's okay.
Like I've forgiven myself forfor that.
There was like a long timewhere I was like beating myself
up over that, um.
And the second thing is that Itruly hate my book.
Um, from like 30 to 55 percentof the book, like like I'm happy
at the beginning, right, likeit's a love story like me and it
(17:49):
.
Or like, yeah, we're like doingthis thing.
And then, um, and then I getlike 30, 35% in.
And that's when I'm like God,this book is like boring.
And then I'm like, oh, my God,I hate this.
And then I'm like no one'sgoing to want to read this.
And I'm writing in the scenesare just like dragging out of me
and I'm like this is I justneed to go write this other like
(18:10):
Chinese idea that's over here,you know, and and it initially
like, thank God, that didn'thappen my first two or three
books.
But it happened on book likefour through 30.
And at that, and it just tookme a couple books to realize
like that's a normal part of myprocess, like it is normal for
me to fall out of love with mystory 30%.
And.
And now, when it happens, I'mjust like, oh, hey, like I'm at
(18:34):
that point, you know what I mean.
And then um, and then I justkeep trudging through.
And that was another thing Deansaid.
Dean said the same thing.
Like like halfway through he'slike this book's horrible.
No one wants to read this.
This is stupid.
And I was so glad he said thatbecause his books are like
brilliant works of art, you know.
Um, but, but it's so anyway.
So that's something I always,because a lot of times I talk to
authors and they're like I'mlike you know, I've gotten 100
(18:56):
pages into four different booksand then, you know, I realized
how bad they are.
And then I go write somethingelse and it's like, no, like
that's part of the process, likeit's not part of every author's
process, but a large number ofus, like you just got to get
through, you got to get past the50% point, start to be where
you're building up to the climax, and then you can fix
(19:17):
everything and rewrite.
So like maybe it is reallydraggy during that part, but
that's fine.
Like, if you're hating a scene,just write, finish the scene
later and move to the next one.
And so it just took me.
I think we lose a lot of newauthors that think because, like
, this book isn't a masterfulwork of art, they love every
scene of as they're writing itthat they're broken or this
(19:38):
book's broken and they need todo something else, and it's just
like communicating that.
That's like a normal part ofthe process, at least for me and
for a lot of the authors that Iinteract with.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's so funny that you say that, because I think
both Megan and I have said thison the podcast a hundred times.
Well, I'm about a third of theway in, and so I now know this
is the stupidest book in thehistory of the playmate, and
that's.
You know what I mean.
And you just feel that way in.
Yeah, I've even gotten to thepoint where I don't even try.
I mean, I always know the endof a book, or sort of the end of
(20:11):
a book and the opening, butwhen I get to about 30%, often I
just stop and then replot to adegree, like I rework what I
thought was going to happen,because I now realize those
characters are not going to dothat or that's just lame or
whatever the thing is.
You know.
So, but to hear that you dothat and Dean Kunst does that,
(20:35):
that just makes me feel like avalidated human being.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, and I'm actually curious too.
So I mean, I've written, Ithink 10 novels now at this
point and the one that I'mworking on right now I've gotten
kind of stuck and I realizedI'm kind of stuck at that like
50% mark and I keep trudgingthrough like I know it'll.
You know I hate the book butI'm going to get through it.
You know it's just the way itis.
But but the thing I'vediscovered is that each book has
(21:01):
a slightly different problem atthat point.
Sometimes it's that I don'tknow where it's going.
Sometimes it's that I have toomany options, sometimes it's
that I just feel like it'sreally boring and I need to just
skip ahead because I'm writingoh, they're all walking and
talking and that's nobody caresabout that, right, like.
(21:23):
So every book has a slightlydifferent problem.
But now I've written far fewerbooks than you have.
So I'm curious is that alsotrue?
Or have you noticed that inyour own process that each book
you have the same hiccup pointbut that it's a different hiccup
, or is it totally the same?
I would say no, I agree withyou.
It's not like every single bookis a new, brand new issue, but
100% like.
(21:43):
That's the other great thingabout like the more and more you
write is because it doesn't forme.
For me, normally, the 50 to 30to 50% problem is a boredom
problem.
It's like a me being like God.
The deadline at this point isso far out, like so far out, you
know, and so I'd much rather dolike this other thing, or read
this book or play this app on myphone or whatever else, and
(22:04):
it's like huh, I really don'twant to go write this book right
now and I don't have thatpressure of the deadline yet
because I'm not that close to ityet.
So for me it's more of aboredom thing.
But in every book almost almostevery book I'll run into a
craft hiccup like that, and alot of times it's I don't know
my characters well enough, likethey're just not like real
(22:27):
people in my head yet.
So it's hard when, like, theyget into an argument or
something else, like I justdon't really know how they're
going to react.
And I'm trying to figure thatout as I go.
So a lot of times I'll justkind of I'll have times where
I'm just sitting like thinkingabout, like trying to find a
mental muse for this person ortrying to kind of figure out.
Like, who is this person Like?
What kind of clothes do theywear?
(23:01):
Like you know, are they bitchyor, you know, are they grouchy
or are they something else youknow?
So it's just trying tounderstand them more and so
that's so.
That's like my craft issue, my.
The other side that is a majorroadblock for me and my
character and a lot of authors,is that I am successful like
despite myself.
I, in terms of I wrote from thefirst 25 books that I wrote, I
wrote whatever I felt likewriting and it was like you know
(23:21):
, it was like an enemies tolovers, seeming romance, and
then it was like a slow burn,you know, friends to lovers, and
then I wrote like a romanticsuspense.
Then I wrote a dark romance andthen I wrote.
It was like readers less themlike, followed me and continued
to buy my books, but it helpedthat I was publishing four books
a year but I had no brand tospeak of, like my.
(23:45):
You could not put me in anysort of a bucket with any
consistency whatsoever, becauseevery book other than all being
sexy romances or sexy with anelement of romance, I was also
writing like sexy thrillerswhere I was like killing off the
hero.
So like there just wasn't anyconsistency, which meant every
(24:06):
time I was starting a new book,like my readers didn't know what
to expect.
I didn't have consistency in mymarketing, I didn't have
consistency in my delivery, andthat, like I would, I sat down
at a lunch, at one at our firstCon and with an Amazon rep and
he told me.
He said the authors that arekilling it.
(24:28):
They're hitting like theirsweet spot.
And then in that sweet spotmight be like Scottish
Highlander romance with abrother's best friend, and
they're writing that same bookover and over and over again.
Like I mean, the story isdifferent but they're hitting
that, that market and that nicheand that specific like drill
(24:49):
down as far as you can.
And they're doing it over andover and over again.
It's not just right, a sweetChristian romance, that's, you
know, in a small town.
It's like on a ranch withcowboys and everyone needs to be
like on a ranch with cowboys.
And I was like, oh yeah, and Ijust completely threw away that
advice Like that, you know if Ilike sat down and but I was this
(25:09):
like creative muse that wasdoing what I want.
I was hurting myself so muchlike AR Tori I'm behaving with.
I am writing domestic suspenseset in California with wealthy
people.
That is my niche.
You know what I mean and I'mdoing it every time and I'm
growing that audience and thatloyalty and consistency.
But I wish that was something Ihad done 10 years ago and, to
(25:32):
be honest, I didn't know what Iwanted to write 10 years ago, so
I don't think I could have.
But the earlier you can findwhat it is that you love to
write, that your readers love toread from you, it's easy for
you to write and you can stickthere Like that's what you need
to do.
And Melanie Harlow, who's anumber one Amazon bestselling
author and extremely smart andsavvy businesswoman, she talks
(25:55):
about it like like writing cake.
Like her books are like cake.
You know they're light andfunny and sweet and you know
they just hit the spot.
She's like there are days whenI wake up and I want to write
spaghetti.
Like I don't want to write cake.
Like I don't feel like writingcake.
You know I want to writesomething else.
I want to write tiramisu.
She's like, and I don't.
I write cake because cake iswhat is paying my mortgage and
(26:17):
cake is what is putting my kidsthrough college, and cake is
what my readers want, and itdoesn't really matter what
Melanie Harlow feels like onthat Wednesday, like that's.
She needs to write cake and andthat's you know, I'm still.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I'm slowly figuring out like what my cake is series,
and one of them is funnier andone of them is less funny.
That's being relaunched, butbut they all have murders in
them.
I don't know.
It's like I, I think I I atleast narrowed myself down to
that.
(27:03):
But but you're right, likedrilling down really into the,
the nichier sub sub sub genre,that that is a place to really
grow an audience.
I think that's really to theniche-ier sub-sub-sub genre,
that is a place to really growan audience.
I think that's really.
It's just hard to do, though,because I think authors get
bored like anybody else.
Yeah, and writing cake over andover again, it's like I really
(27:25):
don't want cake, you know.
Like she said, I want dinner,I'm tired of dessert.
You know you want to dosomething else.
So that is.
That is tricky, so how do youhelp?
So, first of all, before I getto that, I wanted to mention
your one about the deadline.
So, since you have a lot of ordid anyway have a lot of
independently published books,how did you get around that
(27:49):
deadline thing?
Because, as an independentlypublished author, you are your
deadline by and large.
So what'd you do?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Well, I, um, I would announce, as soon as I was,
10,000 words into a book where Iwas like, okay, like, this book
has enough legs.
Like the idea is like, pretty,I'm a pantser, but the idea is
like, pretty well developed.
Like I have an idea of like howthis book is going to end in
these characters.
Um, at that point in time, I'ma pantser, but the idea is like,
pretty well developed.
Like I have an idea of like howthis book is going to end in
these characters.
At that point in time, I wouldboth book an editor, but I'd
(28:17):
also set a release date andannounce it to my readers.
And at that time I waspublishing four books a year and
I had a very active andvoracious reader base.
That like would have held meaccountable not intentionally,
but like it was, was like every,every and, and I talked about
that book the whole time I waswriting it.
So it was like, oh, I just hada great scene in this, or I'd
(28:37):
give them like a little likeparagraph excerpt, sneak peek,
you know, and I would talk aboutlike my muses and things like
that.
So they're constantly asking melike, when is this going to
release?
When is this going to release,or I just placed my pre order or
whatever, and so I had thatpressure and also, at the time,
publishing four books a year,like I needed to publish that
(28:59):
next book so that we could payour bills.
You know what I mean it was like.
So I knew that if I didn't getthis book out, you know, then I,
you know it was going to stressme out financially.
So, um, so that was what I didwhen I was indie.
Now I only I've only publishedone book a year because I have
so many other businesses thatare going on, so my writing time
(29:19):
is much more limited.
And if, if a book didn'tsucceed like it's not going to
make or break me financially, um, so it's so.
Now my public, my publishersthough I have those contracts
with the publishers and I havemy agent breathing down my neck,
so I have those deadlines.
That way I don't have thefinancial stress of it.
But at the time in which I wasin straight indie, I had a lot
(29:43):
of those sort of those pressures.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, so that was a good segue into all these other
businesses that you mentioned.
Why don't you talk a little bitabout InkersCon, like what was
the brainchild of that con andhow did you start it?
Why did you start it, all ofthe things?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So InkersCon, for anyone listening, is an events
company for authors.
So we do educational events, wedo free webinars, we do new
author boot camps and we do anannual conference.
That's in Dallas each year butit's also available to attend
online.
And it started, let's see, whenI was about 10 books in, when I
(30:27):
started in 2012,.
There was no resources forauthors.
I mean there just wasn't anylike.
We didn't have like we had KDPforums and like there was one
author that had like a blog JAConrad had a blog and it was
like and that was kind of it,but it was like, you know, I
(30:48):
mean there just wasn't anyresources.
So first few years I wasted alot of money on marketing
efforts that didn't work and theonly way I learned is I would
just like plow forward until Ihit a wall.
It was like I was blind.
I would plow forward until Ihit a wall and then I would turn
and I would just until I couldmove forward again, and then I
would just go forward until Ihit another wall.
(31:08):
And then that was like how Inavigated through things and I
was like man if I ever figurethis out, like I'm gonna have a
writing for dummies, like book,or series or something.
It's like how to write a bookfor dummies, how to market a
book for dummies, and so, like,maybe in 2015 or 16, I came out
with three courses like how towrite, how to market, how to
(31:29):
publish, and so that was likethe initial start and I quickly
learned how little I knew.
Like it was a great processmaking those courses because it
really caused me to examine myprocess.
Like how do I write a book?
Like, how do I come up with aplot, how do I tell a scene and
put a scene on paper.
But I realized, like I know alot about what I do, but I want
(31:50):
to know, know, like, what XYZ isdoing, who's like killing it in
audiobook sales you know what Imean.
Or like what, like what's upwith subscriptions and how does
that work.
And so initially, the thought Igot together with my sister,
who's also a project manager andshe had been like my business
advisor for she's been mybusiness advisor for decades and
it was like what, if we like,did a summit?
(32:13):
That was the original thoughtlike we'll do a summit, we'll
bring together, like all ofthese top names in different
areas and we'll record, becauseI wanted to have consistency of
video.
We'll record all of them givinga presentation on a certain
topic and then we'll package ittogether and release it online.
So that was the originalthought.
But then it was like, well, ifwe're bringing everybody to one
spot, like we should at leastlet some like authors come and
(32:35):
watch in the audience.
You know what I mean.
Like so, and then, before weknew it, like then I was like
what if we just did like camethree days early and we did
something for new authors and itwas like a bootcamp, and before
we knew it, like we had a fullfledged five day event, um and
but the focus was always onthose online attendees, like
from the beginning.
So, and then the next year wehad COVID and we were ahead of
(33:00):
the game of everyone becausewe'd already gone through an
online conference and we alreadyhad everything in place.
So we already had ticketing andaccess points and how to do
chat and that sort of thing.
So it evolved and expanded towhat it is today, which is we do
have our live event, but it'svery small.
We only have max of 200attendees.
It's in Dallas, but we havefilm and videographer crews that
(33:23):
are like 15 people deep thatrecord everything and package it
and then we release it to ourdigital audience.
And the digital audience is atwo-week long launch that has
attendee-led roundtables.
We have dozens, if not hundreds, of live video author chats.
We have experts come in and doQ&As, we have companies like
(33:44):
Amazon and other retailers comein and do Q&As and it's just
like two weeks of nonstop eventsyou can attend from anywhere in
the world online and you haveaccess to all of the videos and
all the presentations for sixyears.
So even if you're like notready for AMS ads or you're not
interested in a Kickstarterright now, but in two or three
(34:07):
years, like you're ready to selfhub foreign translations, like
you can watch that video then.
So that was kind of where itstarted and then what it has
grown into and what we havetoday.
I think that's actually reallyinteresting that you started
with that online focus first,because I mean you hear about
the online summits, right, whichare online first, I suppose,
(34:30):
but to have like a livein-person conference with the
quality of experts and speakersthat you bring in um, you know
normally like that's the bigticket event, that's the thing
that you know the organizer isreally making the money on
making the money on, and sothat's what they focus on.
But I love that it's moreonline they focus on, but I love
(34:54):
that it's more online geared oronline focused, online, you
know, geared toward thoseattendees.
So what kind of I guess onlinecommunity benefits does the con
offer?
I love that question Becausethat was I had attended like
summits.
I had attended During COVID.
I attended a lot of onlineconferences but they were very
(35:14):
like disconnected, right.
It was like, okay, here's somelinks and click on some things,
and there's some like there'salways like a Facebook group or
something like that you know,but it's not.
I mean, what I wanted was Iwanted to spark as many of those
like moments that you do get ata live conference, where it's
like you're on the elevator andyou're chatting with somebody
(35:35):
you know and it's like, oh, Ijust made like a new friend, but
I also I'm an author.
Now I'm very outgoing, but whenI came into this business in
2012, I was a very quiet,introverted person and when I
went to my first author'sconference, it was like
terrifying to me, like I didn'tknow anyone and you still do
have those moments.
It's one of the reasons why wekeep Inkers Con so small is
(35:57):
because it can be hard if you'renot coming in with a group like
to.
I'm not someone, I wasn'tsomeone who was going to walk
into a room and be like hi, I'mAlessandra.
Hi, what do you write?
You know, like that just wasn'tme, Like I was like I'm just
going to sneak away and go up tomy room and hide, you know,
during these classes.
So so it was.
It was we wanted to create aplace where introverts, but also
(36:18):
just people who didn't have themeans or ability to travel,
like you know, you live in NewZealand or you have kids and you
have a job and you can't likedrop everything and fly
somewhere and spend a weekendaway from, like your
responsibilities.
So, to answer your question,because I have not, yet we we
have as many, as manyinteractive events as possible.
(36:40):
So an example is we have ourmeet and greets, which are like
kind of speed dating, like weall come into a group and then
it's like and then we divideinto like smaller breakout rooms
of three to 10 authors and it'sall by a certain thing.
It might be that you're all sixfigure authors, or you're all
sci-fi authors, or you're alldebut authors or whatever it is.
But we try to pair and breakeverybody into smaller groups
(37:04):
and then they go through likediscussion questions Like what's
the one thing you really wantto focus on this year at the
conference that you want tolearn about, or what's your
number one tip for fellowauthors, or something like that.
So there's a series of likeconversations that they have and
we all come back to the mainroom, shuffle them again and
then they go back out.
So those are like our meet andgreets and then our attendee led
roundtables.
(37:25):
Any attendee who's attending theconference can create a
roundtable on a certain topic.
So an example might be likeKindle unlimited marketing
strategies and they're like Iwant to get together with other
authors and talk about this.
And so Tuesday at seven o'clockwe're going to meet and we have
Zoom rooms that they can useand any attendee can sign up.
They can read the descriptions,they can sign up and those like
(37:48):
we started them this first yearexpecting like I don't know
someone to participate andthey've just gone gangbusters,
like some years we have 200 ofthem.
One year they had one.
Ask the guys where.
It was like four guys.
It was like ask us anyquestions that you want and it
lasted for two and a half hours,wow, and it was like like I was
(38:10):
getting so many messages.
They're like have you gone intoask the guys that's seen the
conversations?
They were the most respectful,best group of guys that could
possibly have done thatconversation, but they were
sharing everything.
I mean, like it was a lot ofromance authors asking them very
personal questions and theywere.
They understood that it, likeit was.
It was just a great.
It was a great experience.
Um, but we have everything.
(38:30):
Sometimes it's just like I wantto meet fellow authors in
Australia, you know, or I'mattending an international book
(38:53):
Digital Con is.
We do regular writing sprintsevery day.
You can come and join.
We also have like businessmeetings and plannings,
accountability sessions, thingslike that.
So it's just, it is a full packtwo weeks where if you don't
meet people and make someconnections, like it's hard.
It's hard not to.
It's as much if you want toparticipate or as much as you
(39:13):
don't.
Some attendees they just buy it, they watch the classes and we
don't ever see them, but someattend, you know, wow,
everything that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, that really is.
It's a very differentperspective and a very different
approach and I really like it.
And, like you said, what timeyou know you have had very good
timing in your life.
There must be somebody smilingdown on you, alessandra, because
(39:46):
you know, with writing thatsteamy book right after Fifty
Shades and having that thingtake off, and then with this
like planning this digitalconference right before COVID,
it was like almost as ifsomething in you knew.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Like I know, covid was a blessing and a curse.
I mean, it was obviously acurse in a lot of ways, like for
everyone.
But in terms of our business,it went from us being kind of
like the only full scale onlineconference in town to being like
every conference suddenly waslike okay, we have these tickets
sold.
Okay, we have these ticketssold.
How do we pivot to digital?
You know what I mean.
(40:17):
And so that first year I meanand, and the subsequent years
and also people got Zoom fatigue, you know.
So, like, by the time we're inour third year after COVID, like
we really saw a dip in numbers,because I think people were at
that point like I need to getout of the house, like I don't
want a third Zoom meeting if mylife cannot.
Yeah, now we've even backed out.
(40:37):
Like we're okay with, you know,with retreating back inside and
getting online.
But it was a really interestingride and but it helped that,
yeah, we didn't have thatlearning curve that first year
when everything was just goingcrazy with COVID.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, have that learning curve, that first year
when everything was just goingcrazy with COVID, yeah, yeah,
well, now, actually, I'm kind oftangential question here too
Did you find that because ofCOVID, the tools and the systems
that you had available to youimproved dramatically?
Or, like you know the leaps andbounds in technology, like I
hate to put it in this way, butin war, right, they always say
that that's when you have thebiggest technological advances.
I feel like COVID was maybekind of the same, but also, I
don't run conferences, so Idon't really know.
(41:20):
You think so, but like Zoomended up like the second year,
or we had all of these likecrazy new things that come and
then we would try them, and thenwe'd just go back to zoom, like
it was like, and then, like um,we looked at an all-in-one
platform and we tried it for twomonths and it was like, so
(41:41):
glitchy, it was like we justwent back to our like
squarespace site.
You know, yeah, um, we still usethe same membership program.
Now we've switched, but we usethe same membership program for
four years, even after covid.
So, yeah, I.
But what did help, I think, iswhere people's like familiarity,
like before, like with our veryfirst year, which was pre COVID
.
Like a lot of people didn'thave Zoom accounts like unless
(42:03):
they worked in a businesssetting, like that wasn't just.
Like there were a lot of peoplethat had never used Zoom before
.
Where post COVID it was, youknow, it was much more
commonplace.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Yeah, yeah, everybody yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Or they had kids used it for school and they were
like I'll, I'll help you out.
Yeah Well, so we do have someexciting news for our listeners.
Why don't you tell them alittle bit about the offer for
the AuthorWheel community?
Absolutely so, if you'reinterested in attending
(42:37):
CurseConseCon online.
Our digital launch is mid-Julyand currently prices are $249
for that ticket.
But if you are an AuthorWheelcommunity member, you can save
$50, which will drop it down to$199.
And the coupon code for that, Ihave it right here, is WHEEL50.
So if, at checkout, you'll justgo, you'll have to create a
(42:58):
username and password, I believe, and then at the checkout just
put WHEEL, all caps 50, nospaces, and that'll save you $50
.
And you can use that either onthe payment plan we do have a
payment plan that breaks it intotwo payments or you can do it
just in the single pay.
Either way, you'll get instantaccess, and I say instant access
.
If you want to sign up beforelaunch, then you can have full
(43:21):
access to those two weeks oflive events.
But if you're listening to anolder version of this or you're
listening to this after the fact, you can jump in after the
launch and you'll justimmediately unlock all of the
round table recordings and allof the presentations.
And it's important to say thatIngressCon is for fiction
authors that write in adultgenres.
(43:41):
I don't mean steamy adult, Imean like not children's books.
So adult fiction genres, andthat's really our core focus.
And our four pillars aremarketing, business, advertising
, classes and writing.
So those are the craft, sothose are the four major areas
that our content covers.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Do you have a?
Speaker 2 (44:01):
couple of the keynote or maybe headliner
presentations that you can kindof share, like what you've
already planned so far.
Absolutely so, and I shouldhave said to find out more, you
can go to incursconcom and youcan see our full lineup there,
but in terms of speakers thisyear.
So again, we have four majorareas writing, marketing, craft
(44:25):
and business.
And so we have speakers likeAngel Lawson she's the number
one Amazon bestseller.
She's doing a presentation onhow to build super fans.
Becca Smythe if you've everheard Becca speak, she is a
fantastic mental coach and she'stalking about ways that you can
overcome being overwhelmed,feelings of overwhelmed, which
(44:48):
is really fantastic.
Gina Darlene, who is a numberalso huge bestseller.
She's talking about secrets ofsuccessful world building.
She's also on our vault, whichis like six bestselling authors
like LT Ryan that are sharing,kind of answering attendee
questions and sharing just allof the different aspects that
lead to success but also thatcan hurt your career.
(45:09):
So and then we have, likeCadence Snow, another big
bestseller Laura Hidalgo, who'sa cover designer, who's talking
about data driven cover design.
Facebook ads with Matthew JHolmes.
That's a really fantasticpresentation, whether you're a
newbie to Facebook ads or moreexperienced career.
(45:30):
Perrier Jonte.
He's a seven figure annualearner and he talks all about
direct sales.
Yeah, so just and on and on.
Well, that's, that's fabulous.
We've had Becca Seim andMatthew J Holmes on the podcast
in the past.
So to any listeners, just goback and search through the
archives because you can get asneak peek at you know some of
(45:51):
the things they might be talkingabout.
And then I guarantee, if you golisten to them, you're going to
be like, okay, I need to takethe course.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Yeah, in fact, the first place that I ever heard
Matthew was on an Inkers Con.
It was a mini con that I wentto it was mini con.
Yeah, I went to the mini conand I heard him and I was like,
oh, I think I could do this.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
He's like a dream, like he's just a dream to work
with.
He's so, um, he's attending.
I'm really excited to meet himin Dallas.
Um, he's attending with hiswife and um, just a really great
guy.
Um.
But yeah, breaks it down andit's really interesting.
I won't give away like thesecrets of his presentation.
Well, one I haven't seen it yet, but just in our conversations.
(46:41):
Like he's teaching a very likehands off approach that's only
going to take you like five to10 minutes a day to maintain and
it's going to be well worthseeing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
And I will say that I bought his class after we
interviewed him on our podcastand I mean he literally
transformed my income.
I mean I went from making verylow numbers and it's not like
I'm a seven figure author now,but my goal was consistent money
(47:09):
.
And then I figured, once I hadconsistent money I could figure
out how to scale it.
And I have had consistent moneyand consistently edging up
money.
And then I figured, once I hadconsistent money I could figure
out how to scale it.
And I have had consistent moneyand consistently edging up
money.
And I do credit Matt's class,even with the Metapocalypse
that's happening right now.
I mean it's like it's a wildworld right now.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
It is a wild world, but he and his yeah anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And Becca, I mean, she's just, she's just the bomb.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, becca's like an angel.
I mean she is, she's.
So I can't say enough nicethings about her.
I mean I really just can't.
She's fantastic and she's sucha she's just like a great person
, like you know.
I mean just like she has such agreat aura and yeah, and she's
brilliant, she's absolutelybrilliant.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah, and just listening to her is like taking
a yoga class.
That's me.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
You're like, I'm in good hands, everything will be
okay.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
It's very zen.
She's very zen, yeah, she'slike she's the bomb, so that is
really great.
Well, that sounds like it'sgoing to be a fantastic
conference and I hope all youpeople in the listening audience
take advantage of it.
And remember we'll have thelink in the show notes.
It is wheel, all uppercaseletters, 50, no spaces, and we
(48:29):
will have all of the links thatAlessandra gives us in the show
notes.
Is there any last tidbits ofamazing wisdom you want to like
throw out there at our audiencebefore we?
Speaker 2 (48:42):
I would just say that it's a constantly changing
industry and that can be goodand bad.
It could change, you know, in aweek like to your favor, and it
could change, you know, in away that that can hurt you.
But what's important is justlike that we remember why we're
in this and for some of us, likeyou, may have gotten in it to
(49:04):
become rich and famous, but formost of us it's because, like
you, love stories and you lovereading stories and you love
telling stories and we can.
That's one thing we can control, like we can control that.
And as long as we're having agood time and not putting too
much pressure on our books andthat's that's our job on the
other aspects of our life, right, like keeping keeping that
(49:25):
pressure off of our books thenyou can be in it for a long time
and it can really be just sucha fantastic part like of your
life.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, I love that.
That's really good and, I alsothink, being always open to
continuing to educate yourself.
Yeah, because, as you said,things are always changing, so
and a great way to do that wouldbe to just go ahead and sign up
for InkersCon.
Little commercial there.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
It is true that the more you know, the easier
everything is Like it's.
That's just the way it is Likethe more you know, the easier
and the more you can learn fromfellow authors, because and
that's why it's so great to havelike a small group, like if you
can find a small group ofauthors that are in the same
place in their career and kindof like ideally in the same
genre, and you guys can growtogether because even their
(50:14):
failures, like you can learnfrom that.
And it's also great to knowthat you're not like the only
one facing these sort of things.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, it's me and Dean Coons that we don't like.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah, okay, well, that was.
This was so inspiring and sogreat.
So, to all you listeners outthere, I just want to remind you
of something Alessandra said,which when she was talking about
how she wished she'd known thatshe needed to create her brand
(50:45):
and that she wished she'd knownthat she needed to peck her
thing and just do it.
If you're struggling with that,we do have a free course on our
website.
It's called Seven Steps toClarity Uncover your Author
Purpose, and it will lead you in.
Every day you'll get a newlesson and it will lead you
(51:07):
through some questions to askyourself some different ways to
think about things, to help youcome up with a basic author
mission statement and then eventake that mission statement and
distill it into a tagline.
It's kind of fun and, as I said, it's free.
So hop on over toauthorwheelcom and sign up and,
(51:28):
until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.