October 30, 2023 • 61 mins
What's the best way to approach literary agents? How do you make your manuscript stand out? Do you need to be on social media?
Today's guest has the answers. We discuss understanding submission guidelines, showing respect for the agents you meet or query, and leveraging social media to promote your work (because yes, even traditionally published authors need to market their books.) Whether you're an introverted writer or love to be in the limelight, there's something for everyone as Amy shares her strategies on balancing privacy while engaging with readers.
Amy Brewer is a senior literary agent at Metamorphosis. Her intuitive human understanding can help writers bridge the communication gap and jump into the publishing world. Her experience in the mental health field and yoga training help her guide and assist clients with stress and anxiety in this highly competitive industry. All of this is pulled together with a multi-tasking and hyper-organized brain, so that at the end of every day she feels accomplished and grateful. She is seeking captivating stories of human connection and books that touch her heart.
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Greta Boris:
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Megan Haskell:
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Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to the Author Wheel podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thriller Author and I'm Megan Haskell, Award-winning
Fantasy Adventure Author.
Together, we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
So today we have Amy Brewer with us on the show.
She's a literary agent withmetamorphosis and it was super
interesting because we spent alot of time talking to people in
the indie author space, as itwas really nice to check in with
traditional publishing, didn'tyou think, Megan?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, it really was, and this is one of the things
that we've talked about in thepast, but I really try to make
sure we reiterate is that we'revery agnostic as to which
publishing method is quoteunquote best.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I don't think there is a best.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
There's just what's right for you and your goals and
what you're striving for, whyyou write.
So it was really, reallyinteresting to check in with an
agent who's in the trenches,working with authors and helping
them get traditional publishingcontracts.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, and it does seem to me that things are
changing in that, and there weresome things about that which I
will let you share that we havetalked about and maybe gotten
people a little upset with us.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, we got a little yelled at once.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yes, we did.
But now, why'd you tell aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I mean.
So one of the big things that Ifound fascinating about this
conversation was her take onmarketing and the fact that she
readily admits that, no matteryour publishing choice, all
authors these days need to bespending time and energy on
(01:53):
marketing efforts, and thatreally does seem to be a change
from a few years ago.
I mean, like we said we gotinto a little trouble a few
years ago I mean not really, butlike we had a couple authors
get mad at us for saying that weruffled feathers.
Yes, that is a much better term.
We ruffled feathers when wemade this suggestion that even
(02:15):
traditional authors needed tospend time marketing, but that
was Amy's advice, so it's areally fascinating conversation
and I think you're really goingto find it interesting.
But before we get into that,greta what's been going on?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, I broke a writing record for me.
Now there's probably people outthere that are like oh you,
wimp you.
But I wrote at least maybe afew more 10,000 words in two
days and I got to say it'samazing what procrastination can
push you to, because that waswhy I had to do it.
(02:59):
So all I have left on book sixis the Dignumau chapters, which
I often don't write until afterI revise anyway.
So I'm feeling pretty goodabout that.
Now I'm moving on to gettingready for a family camping trip.
And then 20 books Vegas baby.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, I am so excited for that conference, but we'll
be talking more about that later, so for me I actually don't
have a whole lot to report.
I am just kind of keeping onkeeping on at the moment.
I've been back at the writingdesk so I've talked in the past
(03:39):
about the new morning writingritual and that is still going
strong.
I have not missed a singleweekday.
So that's my goal.
Monday through Friday, I wakeup early and I do my writing and
I have kept the streak alive.
Granted one of those days was 45words, but it counts.
45 words is better than zerowords.
(04:02):
Exactly, and that was on a daywhen I had gotten like six hours
of sleep.
So it was.
It was problematic, but in anycase I have kept the streak
alive.
So I'm very proud of that andI'm working on the third book in
the Aether series, which isalso interesting because the
other thing that I am or justfinished up by the time this
(04:25):
airs, is a free promotion forAether Bound, book one leading
into the launch of AetherCrossed, which is book two next
week.
So that's exciting and alsonerve-wracking.
I always want those launches togo so well and I plan so hard
and sometimes they hit andsometimes they don't.
(04:46):
So we'll see how it goes.
But that actually makes mesecretly kind of glad we're
going to be in Vegas because Iwon't be able to spend my whole
day hitting refresh on the bookretailer platforms dashboard
sites to see how many sales Iget.
That day.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, always good to stay away.
It'll force me to just kind ofignore it.
All righty, so let's get on withthe interview.
Today, we are very excited tohave with us Amy Brewer.
Amy is a senior literary agentat Metamorphosis.
Her intuitive humanunderstanding can help writers
(05:24):
bridge the communication gap andjump into the publishing world.
Her experience in the mentalhealth field and yoga training
help her to guide and assistclients with stress and anxiety
in this highly competitiveindustry.
All of this is pulled togetherwith a multitasking and
hyper-organized brain.
I could really use one of thoseso that at the end of every day
(05:48):
she feels accomplished andgrateful.
She is seeking captivatingstories of human connection and
books that touch her heart.
And Amy is also handlingsubsidiary rights for my
publisher, so I'm very excitedto talk with her.
Welcome to the podcast, amy.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate being apart of this and I'm excited to
be doing sub rights for FoxPress, because they're just
wonderful people.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, they are truly the nicest people ever.
So let's dive in.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyourself and how you got to be
Amy Brewer.
Literary agents atMetamorphosis.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
So I have to say, the story starts when I was about
15.
I was in English class and Igrew up just outside St Louis
and the girl that sat in frontof me, her name's Patti
Carruthers, and we had to sitalphabetically back then.
So it was Carruthers' chanceand, just by happens dance we
(06:57):
started chatting and we becamegood friends.
And then life happens, collegehappens, we went separate ways
and it was a situation of afterwe reconnected, when we had kids
and we're grown, and we startedtalking about writing.
She's always been a writer andI've always been a reader, and
(07:22):
we were exchanging books, as youdo, and going back and forth
and doing all those wonderfulthings.
And eventually she startedsaying, hey, could you read this
?
And I would read it and wewould talk about it, or we would
talk about edits or how itcould be better.
And this went on for 10 years,easily 10 years and finally,
back in 2016, she said, hey, ourkids are pretty grown, are you
(07:48):
ready to get serious about this?
And during that time, I was ayoga teacher and, like I said,
I've gone about my business andshe was working her jobs and I
said, yeah, let's do that.
So we kind of started looking atwhat we could do to succeed in
the publishing industry and wedecided it would work out well
if I did the business side andshe did the author side.
(08:11):
And both of us studied.
So I studied social media, Istudied publicity, I studied
sort of what you need to do, howto get an agent, all that stuff
, and she studied all of StephenKing's how to write a book, all
the Save the Cats, and she'slearned how to really write for
(08:31):
the market.
And then we kind of broughtthat together and by 2017, I
think, we landed an agent andhad our story ready to go and we
had thought, ok, we're going tostart with this little story
and we started it on Wattpad andwe ran it for a while and it
(08:52):
got really good reviews reallyquickly but of course it was
appealing to the audience.
It was a YA romance calledTexting Prince Charming, and
that is the audience of Wattpador it was this time and we got
enough looks and likes on itthat we could take that and
(09:13):
ended up landing an agent at aconference.
And after a while I kind ofrealized that what I had studied
and learned lent me towardsbeing an agent.
I had the information of all ofthat stuff, and so it really
was helpful to me that I wassort of like oh okay, I get the
(09:37):
business side of author, all Ineed is the connection.
So I started interning atMetaMarcuses that fall and I
interned for about six monthsand was made a full-time agent.
I want to say it was December2017, or maybe it could have
(09:58):
been December 2018.
So pre-COVID years getscrambled a little bit.
But I've been at it for almostsix years yeah, I've been at it
for almost six years and thenour book was released in the
spring of 2018.
So I guess it was I startedAgentee and that was December
2017.
And the book was released andwe just kind of went about it
(10:24):
and marketed our work and I justfell in love with the agenting
side of all of it.
I just decided this is what Ilike to do, because Patty didn't
really want to do all of thehonestly, the podcasts and the
sittings and the signings andall of that stuff and I thought,
(10:46):
well, this is such a fit.
And then, as I got to createrelationships with editors, I
just kind of grew and grew outof that.
So here I am almost six yearslater with I think I have 43
clients right now.
So I'm not including the subrights I sell for two publishers
(11:08):
, so two, almost threepublishers actually.
So it's been a wonderful sortof journey for all of that stuff
.
But yeah, that's a little bitmore about me On a personal side
.
I've been married for 25 years.
I can't even believe it.
My sweet husband and I have twobeautiful boys.
(11:29):
One of them turns 21.
Oh, that hurts me because it'snext week he turns 21.
And I'm just not ready for it.
And then my baby is 19.
And I don't care how old or howgiant he is, because he's six
foot.
He's still my baby.
So that's a little bit moreabout me personally.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So I have a quick question here to interrupt
before we move on to more of ourstandard questions.
I'm going off track as we do,but so I'm very curious.
So you say, did you co-writethat first book or were you like
, how did that relationship work?
Because if you were doing thebusiness side of things like
(12:19):
that's a unique relationship.
I haven't quite heard of thattype of collaboration.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So part of my.
I didn't physically write abunch of it.
I wrote a few little bits andpieces, but I have to credit
Patty with most of the writingof it.
But because I could study themarketing, I could say, oh, you
need more angst here.
They can't kiss yet they haveto.
I found that it was easy for meto fall into an editor role of
(12:51):
saying, oh, we need to hit thesemarks for it to sell to an
agent.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Gotcha, so kind of like a developmental editor sort
of a role.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yes, and she would send me every chapter and I'd go
over it and we looked at itcohesively and as you do as an
author, you shuffle chaptersaround and make things work.
But I realized in that, saying,oh, you've got to hit these
marks to sell.
I was like, oh, and that's nodifferent than what I do for my
(13:26):
authors now is saying, oh, Idon't want to mess with what
you've got and give my input,but you do have to hit these
three points for me to be ableto sell it.
Or you do need to hit this wordcount or take out this many
thousands of words for me to beable to sell it in the market
today.
(13:46):
So that's kind of mycontribution and I'm sure there
were some nuances that Icontributed because Patty and I
have known each other since wewere little.
There's little scenes we put inthat, as any author does, that
are sort of personal.
(14:06):
There's a scene between themain character and her best
friend where they're eatingmilkshakes and dipping their
french fries into theirmilkshakes, which is something
that Patty and I grew up doing.
So there's little things likethat.
But the majority of the writingwas hers but because she really
(14:27):
wasn't interested in the otherend.
It was a great partnership andwe still are best friends.
I just chatted with her thismorning.
We have not, because it is thenorm in publishing.
It is now off the shelves andwe haven't written anything new
because life happens and gets inthe way.
(14:48):
But, like I said, I found thisfound agent team to be really
what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
That's great, that's right.
It's nice to hear thatrelationship.
I feel like historically thatwas always the kind of ideal
when a new author finally got anagent.
It was a little bit more of acollaboration potentially, or
the agent really supporting thatwork.
And I feel like too often thesedays we hear stories of, well,
(15:17):
I've just got too many clients,I can only take the books that
are already 100% ready to go,and so I've heard advice now
that you should edit before youpay for an editor and pay to
have the developmental edit andthe copy edit done before you
start querying agents and thingslike that.
So what's your opinion on that?
(15:37):
Is that something that is that?
Am I correct in my poorassumptions, or is that?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
No, you are absolutely right.
And because it is a situationof at this point you definitely
have to know not necessarilyknow all the points, Because
usually within the first threechapters I'm reading something I
can say, oh, I can sell this.
(16:05):
And then I always finishreading and then I can come in
and say, OK, you need to hitthis mark or that mark or the
pasting, or you could take thisscene out because it's lags or
whatever.
But most of the time I amlooking for a work that is at
least 90% ready to go.
If it's 100% ready to go,awesome.
(16:26):
But editors are now looking forworks that are when I am out
there shopping.
They want to do very little.
They're stretched even morethin than agents are, so I try
very hard to make sure it is theleast amount of work is
possible as I send it out toeditors.
(16:47):
But I guess the ask is, yes,before you send it out to agents
, do you have to have itprofessionally copy edited?
No, should you have sent itthrough Grammarly at least twice
?
Yes, or whatever other softwarethat will help you get out your
(17:08):
filter words.
It helps take out shallow POV,it points out repetitive words
and generally the grammar isimportant.
I had a submission from someonevery, very smart person who I
believe was a doctor, and theyhad submitted to me I want to
(17:30):
say an APA style and I was likeI'm sorry, we only accept CSM
style in fiction.
And they wrote back to me withwell, apa is better.
And I was like I got to make upthis rule, it's not like.
(17:51):
I was like, oh, this is myfavorite one, so it has to be in
that.
No, no, I don't make the rules,I just try to follow them and
tell people OK, this is what itneeds to be.
But I will say grammar isdefinitely.
If I get through the firstthree chapters and I've only
noticed one or two little errorsnot grammar necessarily, but
(18:13):
just little things then it won't.
I can read past it.
But sometimes I can see on pageone that someone is not
familiar with the rules of CSMor they're just generally like.
I can tell a new author a lot oftimes because of some of the
(18:35):
things that stand out.
And that's why I think beforeyou submit to anybody, it should
go through rounds and roundsand rounds with all of your beta
readers, lots of friends thatpeople that you are not related
to, people that will be mean andsay, hey, this doesn't work.
And then I would say, work withand they don't have to be a
(18:58):
professional professional, youdon't have to pay thousands of
dollars.
But if you have a reading groupand you can establish with a
friend of yours sort of a tradesituation, they edit for you and
you edit for them and you trustthem.
Or even working with an author,the brilliant author and I
(19:18):
always say it's Jody Thomas, notJody Thompson, because the two
of them I get switched into mybrain all the time.
But Jody Thomas, she actuallysort of coaches young authors
and up-and-coming authors on oh,this is how it's supposed to
sound, and she's not aprofessional editor, she's just
a New York Times bestseller andit is just one of those things
(19:43):
that the more input you havefrom other people and then the
more, like I said, the tighterit is as far as copy edits, the
better chance you have success.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So I wanted to bring up that you had in your bio.
You mentioned mental health andit's so true.
I mean, this business is aroller coaster, right?
Emotional roller coaster.
So I was just wondering how doyou specifically help your
(20:16):
authors work through that?
I mean, do you give them yogaposes or breaths?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
You know what do you do.
Sometimes it's a breath work.
You know there's everythingfrom it's different for every
author.
Some authors don't even want tohear the negative feedback.
They don't want to know unlessthere is a detail that will help
them edit.
Others are a little bit likehave a thicker skin and like,
(20:43):
yeah, bring it, I don't care,you can share whatever with me.
But generally it is because itis sort of like screaming into
the void by my book.
It's helping them understandthat they need to write because
they have a passion for writingand a love for it more than a
(21:05):
sense of I have to succeed.
I have to sell a million booksto be a success.
Instead, it's the letting go ofthe ego and saying I've written
this work, it is published, itis in my hand and I can take
pride in that, you know, andmaybe a hundred people will buy
it and maybe 20,000 people willbuy it.
But that does not dictatewhether or not your book is good
(21:28):
or whether or not you are asuccess as an author, because in
this day and age it's too hardto say oh.
To be a success, I have to makeoh.
You know, I have to do this ordo that or do that.
Instead, it's about sittingwith yourself and going I have
created something out of nothingand now I'm holding it in my
(21:50):
hands and it is tangible and itmight only impact one or two
people, it might only reach thespirits of one or two people or
make somebody laugh one personleft, but that has to be enough.
So it's sort of that acceptanceof self and acceptance of where
you are.
Also in the you know, authorsget caught up in this
(22:13):
expectation they see on TV orwhatever oh, I'm going to be the
next.
You know, I'm going to writethe next Twilight or the next
Harry Potter.
And she made a billion dollarsand that's the math.
And it's more me kind ofbringing them down to the
reality of.
You know, those are theoutliers, those are the lottery
(22:34):
winners, really, and even thoughthe book they have written is
probably superior to some of theones that have made gazillions
of dollars, it is the morenormal path to write seven to
ten books and publishindependently and publish with
(22:54):
small companies before thelarger presses start to take
notice and sort of just sort ofbringing authors back down to
the reality but also notsquelching their dreams.
I have a phenomenal author and Ijust love him to pieces, and
just this week, in fact, hiscontract is coming through.
(23:15):
He had this dream that he couldturn his book, his book, his
five book series, actually intoa board game or card game, and
it's just been his thing.
He's always wanted this, and sowe had a Zoom with the
publisher and the publisher said, yeah, I know, one of our
(23:37):
illustrators works with a gamingcompany and so, instead of be
saying okay, that's a pipe dreamand squashing it, I connected
him to someone who can actuallyhelp him and work with him to
achieve that goal, and so Ithink that's part of it.
It's just like it's aconnecting author, so they don't
(23:59):
feel like they're out therealone.
Another thing that I do is wehave our team because I'm very
Gen X, it's called Team Awesomeand it's like all 42 of my
authors and we support eachother.
So when one of the books comesout, I send out a book blast so
(24:19):
everybody knows and if they wanta copy, I try to get them a
copy so they can leave reviewsfor each other and they can
share on social media, and mostof them do support their fellow
authors.
My romance authors have kind ofa little subgroup where they
(24:42):
edit and write reviews for eachother in kind of rotation, and
so that works out really well.
So it's just taking that feelingof, oh my gosh, here I am alone
with a computer, and making itfeel less lonely and making you
feel like, okay, I'm part of ateam, I'm part of a support
group, and also letting themknow they can reach out to me if
(25:06):
they need to with text or memeor whatever.
Sometimes somebody will say, hey, I'm really blocked.
I had a phenomenal author whowrites YA and she got a divorce
and stopped writing YA and wrotea horror thriller, because
(25:27):
that's what came out of thattime in her life and it made
sense to me and instead ofsaying, oh well, this is it for
you, you're only going to writeYA, I was like sure I'll give it
a shot, it's a well writtenbook, so let's look at the
options here.
So it's supporting the whole ofthe author and understanding,
(25:49):
okay, this person is goingthrough some stuff that doesn't
you know.
I can wait until they're readyto write again, because I want
to invest in a whole person andin a lifetime and not just in a.
Oh, this book will stop.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I love that, because I think that that is critical,
because you hear so many storiesabout authors.
You know the two book curse.
They got right.
They sign a contract and if theyou know the two, first two
books in a series or whateverdon't just fly off the shelves
(26:25):
and they're just dropped like a.
And how many times does thathappen?
I mean, honestly, it can takefour and five books in a series
before a series catches on andthen then books one and two will
fly off the shelves.
But so it's a.
It's very.
I love that you're saying thatyou're investing in the author,
in a career, versus just in thisone product that they, that
(26:49):
they created.
So, getting back to our normalquestions, what do you think the
greatest roadblock to successthat the authors you work with
encounter?
And as an adjunct to that youcould just say and how do you
help them overcome it?
(27:09):
And if you sort of already saidit with the emotional things, I
can move on to another questionthat's a similar one.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
No, I think the biggest roadblock that authors
encounter is is the businessside.
I work with some incredibleauthors that just adamantly
refuse to do the business sideand when I say business side, I
(27:38):
annual I'm sure I'll talk aboutthis quite a bit on the podcast
is I expect my authors to haveactive social media, because
that is the first thing thateditors look at.
They'll look at your socialmedia.
They look at your interactionlevels.
They don't think you don't needto have a million followers,
(27:59):
but the more followers you have,the better, obviously.
But I have some, you know, somesort of say old school authors
who are still in that mindsetthat, oh, I can write and if I
write, well, that's all that Ineed to do.
And that's not how it isanymore.
That's not how it works.
Now we are in a place where JohnGreen, who has severe anxiety
(28:23):
but is obviously a super famousauthor and probably has to write
anything again and still beconsidered one of the best
authors of the last 20 years,for sure, he has a daily TikTok
that he is out there, puttinghimself out there, doing his
publicity, doing what he needsto do, and because even he was,
(28:46):
you know, when he got on TikTokand he did that.
He had a he went from there hadbeen a lull in turtles all the
way down and he mentioned it afew times and then it spiked
right back up to the New YorkTimes bestseller list and
turtles was like three or fourbooks ago for him, so that's why
(29:07):
it wasn't his newest work, butit's that, to me, is what I see
is the biggest barrier is anauthor just wants to write, when
now I would say, 50 to 60% ofbeing an author is the business
side and running it like abusiness, knowing exactly how
(29:27):
much you're investing, having itset up properly for your taxes,
understanding that is.
You know, this is a commitmentthat goes beyond just getting
words down on the page, and sowhat do I do to help them?
I'm constantly sending herehere's marketing ideas, here's a
group of podcasts, here's agroup of reviewers.
(29:49):
Again like building thatsupport group, like I said,
where everybody else can shareon each other's social media, as
we share each other's socialmedia, so that we can just make
sure we all like each other andcan like, you know, like their
posts and support them.
Just even.
Just, like I said, even justclicking on a like or googling
(30:12):
an author's name can help thealgorithm.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So just reminding everybody of that and, like I
said, supporting that team, yeah, that's that's so important and
it's such a pervasive myth Ithink, particularly for those
authors who are trying to gettraditional deals, that they
don't.
They don't have to do marketing, but it is.
(30:37):
It's time consuming and it'sincredibly important that you
have to.
You have to get the word outthere.
There's just too much noise.
We have too many, too manydifferent entertainment options
these days.
That to to get eyeballs on youryour you know book, that's
going to take somebody eighthours to read or or listen to,
or whatever, however they chooseto do it.
(30:58):
I mean, you go to Netflix.
You can watch a two-hour moviefor quote-unquote free.
Why would you like gettingsomebody to buy your book and
sit and read?
It is a huge hurdle.
So you've got to get out thereand you've got to get the word
out.
So I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's one of the things that Megan and I teach at
conferences and things is.
In fact, it was the first thingwe ever taught in our first
book that we wrote together init and it sort of compares and
contrasts traditional publishing, which is the route that I went
with my first series, andindependent publishing, which is
where Megan went.
(31:39):
And so we would talk and it wasamazing how many people we
would bump into that would say,oh no, I need an agent and a
traditional publisher because Idon't want to do any marketing.
And we would both laugh and say, well, not doing any marketing
is not an option, regardless ofwhich direction you go.
So that is just the reality, asyou said, of today's literary
(32:06):
world.
There's just a lot of noise, alot of options, and I've got to
get you.
It's not the days where therewas six publishers and they had
a handful of people and you justgot what you got when you went
to the library.
There's just so much.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, and I'll add something else here too.
Another thing that we teach andI'm curious kind of your
perspective on this, amy becauseone thing that we do say, too,
is that you don't have to shareeverything of yourself.
You don't have to share allaspects of your personality.
If you're comfortable with that, great, but if you're not, then
choosing the slice of your lifethat you're willing to share is
(32:50):
a sustainable way of doing it,especially for those of us who
are introverted or shy, or justprotect our privacy a little bit
more, or however you want tophrase that.
So, given that, what kind ofslice of life do you encourage
your writers those that arereluctant to do marketing or
social media and things likethat?
(33:11):
How do you encourage them toshare that piece of themselves,
and how do you recommend thatthey go about doing that?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I go with whatever they feel most comfortable with
and unless she's not one of myclients, I cannot take any
credit for this.
But her name's, oh gosh.
Now I'm going to blank on theauthor name, but then the name
of her book is the Ghost and theWolf and it's just a very cool
(33:40):
work and in it they gogeocaching into some spooky
areas and when they aregeocaching, adventures and
shenanigans ensue.
And her Instagram is not awhole bunch of pictures of her
(34:02):
and her family or her and hercat or her writing.
They are different spooky spotsof geocached around.
You can go oh, that was in thebook, or, if you haven't read
the book, it's still just a coolspooky picture, but it all
references back.
So if you have the capacity andthe creativity, I'm all about
(34:29):
you as an entity, because youcan be your writer, entity, self
.
You don't have to be yourauthentic self.
I'm okay with that, but I dothink I do.
Since it's publicity more thanmarketing, I think it's
important to be about half andhalf, so half about your book
and half about this is my life.
(34:52):
This is what I'm doing littlethings.
I also recommend to be on aschedule, a social media
schedule, to make it easy onyourself.
I follow this wonderful.
She's a Harlequin author, hername is Silver James.
She's not my author, I justlike her and I follow her on
(35:14):
Facebook.
And every Saturday is ShirtsOff Saturday, so I know Saturday
morning I turn on Facebookthere's going to be some hunky
guy without a shirt on becauseit's Shirts Off Saturday.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm so in line with her for a moment.
I'm sorry.
I just had to and I was like,wow, that's really exposing
herself on social media.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Okay, sorry, I just had to interject that, no, I'm
still here with things.
That's hilarious, but she keepsit.
And then she writes her blogand releases it on Sundays.
So Mondays it's a hey, here'sthe blog I wrote yesterday.
This is a picture of me and acat or whatever, and it's a
little bit about what the blogis.
So she's on this nice steadyschedule so she doesn't have to
(35:58):
come up with oh gosh, what am Igoing to post today?
And I think that's perfectlyacceptable and wonderful to go.
Okay.
On Wednesdays, amanda McCabe,another romance author she does.
On Wednesdays, we wear pinksometimes because you know she's
that and so it's reallyhandsome guys wearing pink
(36:20):
shirts.
Or when she's researching abook, because she writes
historicals.
When she's researching a book,she has a wonderful series that
is like a 20s mysteries, and soit will be getting, you know,
20s fashions because she'sresearching all of this stuff.
(36:41):
Or if she's, you know, goingdeeper or in a regency area,
we'll get all of this regencystuff.
So I think you can, like I said,do a little bit, because
sometimes it's okay.
Here's me and my dog snuggledup, or you know me having a
glass of wine after a hard dayor something like that, but I do
think about 50% book relatedand 50% this is me, or this is
(37:05):
at least my author persona.
Now, some people don't have theoh, like you were saying, are
shy, but that's why I think thewhole word persona kind of comes
in, because even if they're not, you could sort of do a Lemony
Snicket situation where he wasthere but it wasn't actually him
(37:29):
and he could be bigger andbolder and wilder because he
wasn't representing himself.
He was representing LemonySnicket and I think that's
perfectly acceptable.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, I've heard about, you know.
You hear about like people whoare very shy, retiring people,
and then they get into puppetryand you see their puppet
characters and they're just likethe most outgoing, extravagant,
loud puppet characters and youthink that is that.
But there's something abouthaving this other character in
(38:07):
front of you that just can makeyou feel more bold.
I had a kind of a nice bookrelease recently and instead of
I felt embarrassed, sharing someof the good reviews like, oh,
look at me, I got this goodreview.
So instead I just was it saidoh, you know, imogen and the
gang at Greener Pastures were soexcited to see and for some
(38:30):
reason, just saying like it wascoming from my characters just
made it so much easier for me.
So I think that's a really goodtip.
You know that sometimes or theyfor authors who have a pen name
that you know your pen namekind of represents the voice of
your characters and the voice ofyour writing, so you can kind
(38:51):
of respond to things in yourbook the way that your
characters would.
And you know it's a part ofthat, is a part of you, but it
isn't 100% you and that can makeyou feel a little more bold,
you know.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, I want to one other quick story too.
Faith Hunter, who writes urbanfantasy I don't know if she
still is doing this or not, shemight be, but for a while one of
her main character, janeYellowrock, is a shapeshifter
and shares kind of a soul with amountain lion or a puma, and so
(39:26):
that mountain lion has now,because of magic and time and so
forth and so on, taken on aanthropomorphic personality, and
so she was doing posts fromBeast as the as this mountain
lion, and it was all about likehunting deer and not
understanding human psyche atall and you know, like it was
(39:50):
very funny and very cool and itwas such a great way to engage
with readers from a completelydifferent perspective.
Now I don't know.
I don't know Faith personally.
I don't know why she chose todo that.
If it was, you know, because ofher own personal you know
boundaries and things.
But it worked really well andif you do have those issues,
(40:10):
then that can be a great way toovercome them.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Absolutely, and we do character interviews as part of
our Metamorphosis blog, whichis always really nice and so
that it is the characteranswering the questions and you
can be in character doing that,and I think that is important.
But another part of sort ofmarketing and publicity is for
(40:37):
me, because this was actuallybefore TikTok on Instagram, as
we led up to the release oftexting Prince Charming, I did a
who Is your Prince Charming?
And so every day was a post ofanother hunky, you know, man,
woman, it didn't matter.
(40:57):
You know, is this your PrinceCharming?
Could this be your Prince, youknow, and just to get
interaction and things like that.
And so there wasn't a whole lotof visuals of you know, here's
Patty and I, excited about this.
It was more hey, you know,let's start thinking about who
Prince Charming could be,because that's the premise of
(41:19):
the book.
So you can always find ways tonot to protect yourself and your
privacy, I think.
But you have to have a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Well and honestly, readers, when we're talking
fiction readers are mostlyattracted to the book, the world
of the book.
So if you're sharing somethingthat is going to be interesting
to people who like that world,you know, I think, more than
(41:56):
what you ate for breakfast, it'sjust I mean like okay, here I
had this amazing meal and youwanna share a picture of the
amazing meal?
Well, yeah, if you write a bookabout that takes place in a
restaurant, you could sharemeals all day long.
My books, my new series takesplace mostly in a mortuary.
They're not gonna be interestedin meals so much.
(42:18):
You know what I mean so, butthey're like, yeah, right, so
you know, thinking about whatyour readers might be interested
in.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
I think that's a really that is a really really
Knowing your demographic is alsoextremely important, so yeah,
Import very, very good, sothere's also so shifting off of
how you help your currentauthors.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I know that this is something that a lot of our
listeners are gonna wanna know.
Other than what we coveredabout getting your manuscript in
as clean and beautifulcondition as you can get it, can
you give our listeners sometips?
You know, if they are seekingrepresentation, what are some
(43:06):
best practices and things thatmight help them along the way?
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Understanding your genre, which means, if you are
writing a romance, don't send mea hundred thousand word romance
and say, oh okay, I'm gonnabreak all the rules, because, as
a debut author, unless you aresomething profound, you're not
(43:37):
going to break all the rules.
That's, the publishing industryis not going to let you.
So, knowing your genre and Isay this because I have my
favorite honestly, my favoritesubmission, maybe of all time,
was and I don't even rememberthe title of the book, but it
was an erotica novel and it was300,000 words.
(44:02):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, I mean, I don't even wanna think about what is
in that 300,000 erotica words?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I don't even wanna think about that.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
That's long, exactly Because they were so out of
touch with the erotica genrewhich is usually about 30 on the
long side that they had no ideathey had just.
And I get so many folks sendingme stuff that is just like they
(44:37):
have never researched, they'venever Googled it, they don't
know what their word countshould be, they don't understand
that.
You know, especially like ifyou're writing a formulaic
romance or commercial romance,that you have to hit the points
or that you have to have ahappily ever after.
Some people don't realize that,and so when I give feedback I
(45:01):
try to say, hey, look at this,look at that, be aware of this
because, like I said, a lot ofit is just new writer stuff.
But this is before you get toan agent level.
You really need to be at apoint where you have studied,
you've researched, you know youare spot on the money for what
that agent is looking for.
(45:23):
That is another thing where Iwould say a significant portion
of the rejections that I handout, or for people that send me
stuff on genres I don'trepresent, and I understand that
right now my wish list is alittle bit vague and it's sort
of vague on purpose, but I havegotten so many submissions for
(45:45):
like dark psychological horror,and I have accidentally sold a
couple of those, but not onpurpose, because I don't read
horror.
I don't enjoy it.
I think it's a wonderful genreand I mean no shade at all to it
(46:06):
, but it's just not what Irepresent.
I don't know a lot of editorsin that genre and so I like to.
I love to read YA and I love toread romance, so that is what I
specialize in.
But it is shocking the amount ofpeople that are sort of a oh
any portness storm, any agent,and you can feel that when it's
(46:29):
out there and you're like, oh,they don't even know what I
represent or what I have hadsuccess in selling.
So do some due diligence andlook up the agents.
Look up what they actually buyand sell.
Pay attention to what they have, like I said, had success in.
(46:54):
Because, like I said, a giantchunk of my rejections are just
because it's so off genre for meand no, I haven't even read a
word of their work.
But I'm like, oh, no, I don'twanna read that because that's
not a genre that I enjoy.
So that's kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Submission guidelines .
Is that something that you postlike on the Metamorphosis
website?
Is that like, stop number one,or does it go what's the best?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
path.
I would say submissionguidelines it's the submissions
page onmetamorphosisliteraryagencycom.
But, and almost every agent hassome submission guidelines
manuscript wish list or even onquery manager.
I think that's yeah, submissionmanager or whatever.
(47:52):
The flip side of the program is, they'll tell you exactly what
agents are buying.
It's not that hard even to justpunch an agent type in Amy
Brewer, literary agent and seewhat pops up.
Checking it out, looking atsort of the agencies too.
(48:14):
I send a lot of folks who sendme really high fantasy and I
love, like a YA fantasy.
But again, and I'veaccidentally sold some but I
send really high fantasy folksusually over to Jabberwocky
because that whole housespecializes in that and so that
(48:37):
just knowing sort of okay, evenyou don't have to dig deep, you
don't have to get into FBIbusiness where you find their
Facebook page and go, oh, I havetwo kids too.
That isn't relevant, but likeit's just making sure that
they're gonna be a fit for yourgenre.
It's just, I think, step onethat a lot of people don't make.
(49:00):
Another thing is I don't evenknow how many people have sent
me manuscripts on LinkedIn, eventhough it says specifically on
my LinkedIn profile do not queryme or I do not take this here,
but and I have no idea if theycount that as a rejection,
because I do not interact onLinkedIn hardly at all but also
(49:22):
sort of being aware of okay andeverything on Metamorphosis will
direct you towards querymanager to submit to us, to all
of the agents there, but knowingexactly what format the agent
takes clients in.
I might be my fourth or fifthpodcast interview that I've done
(49:45):
and it's always nice when I'mtalking to someone, they're like
oh, I listened to your podcast,I know this would be a fit for
what you're doing right now, orsomething like that, something a
little bit more fresh, becausesometimes somebody will hit me
with oh well, you were lookingfor this back in 2018, and I'm
(50:06):
like well, it's 2023, the markethas changed and, as any agent,
my taste has changed with it.
So, yeah, that awareness, Ithink, is step one.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
That's sort of a respect thing too, isn't it?
It's kind of like you're askingsomebody for a date and you
don't even know anything aboutthem.
You don't even know if they'resingle.
Whatever it's a respect issueto.
If you're asking someone totake the time to take a look at
(50:42):
your work and potentially enterinto what could be a very
long-term relationship, youbetter darn well know a few
things about them and whatthey're interested in and what
they're looking for.
You know, I was talking to aman agent at a conference one
time and he told me his worst solike yours was getting the
300-word erotica novel and hiswas somebody pitching him at the
(51:10):
urinal at a conference.
He was like I don't care whatI'm doing, I'm going to the
bathroom here.
I mean, it's like there is.
There can be a desperate sensein some writers sometimes and I
can imagine that as an agentthat's just a real turn off
right there.
You know.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yes, and like him, I have been pitched in the
bathroom.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
I really hoped that was like a rare anecdote, which
is not a standard thing thatevery Asian experiences.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
It's not.
I've actually been pitched inthe bathroom and then had
somebody waiting for me outsidethe bathroom, which is, I guess,
a little bit better, but stilljust as off-putting.
And if I'm sitting somewherequietly at a conference, I don't
mind if someone walks up andsays, hey, can I have a minute
of your time?
That's fine, but some peoplefeel entitled to agent time and
(52:18):
that is, and you said, exactlyright.
Because what you're askingsomeone to read when they send
you a query and they send youthe first three chapters, is
you're asking for about a halfan hour of a very busy person's
time, and that is.
That can be daunting to do.
But it also isn't every singlehuman being's right to have that
(52:41):
much of my time.
I have to kind of respect mytime and my boundaries and say,
oh no, this is not appropriate,or just easily, like I said, let
it go without that Because it'syeah, otherwise I would never
leave my desk.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, like I said, I do think alot of that's a respect thing,
and so people don't recognizealways that, yes, there's the
book, there's the manuscript,there's that whole side of it,
but then there's just also thecommon sense, common decency,
human side of it.
Like nobody wants to enter intoa long-term relationship with
(53:26):
somebody that they findobnoxious or off-putting, even
if their book was great.
You know what I mean.
So there is this, it's a bookand it's a human being.
So be a good human being too.
I think is an excellent tip forpeople.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
I mean, it's just sort of common sense.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
But why does common sense fly out the window
sometimes?
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Well, and I think you said it, it's a fear and
desperation Forces people tosort of behave in ways they
wouldn't normally behave, or atleast that's what I assume
Sometimes I will be.
And I don't mean any disrespectto older white gentlemen, but
(54:11):
they just think that I owe themtime so they will stop and talk
to me and ask questions, likewhen I'm brushing, like if I'm
in a conference and I'm goingbetween speaking and then taking
pitches or whatever I'm usuallyin motion, and they'll stop me
just to chat because they havethat entitlement.
(54:34):
I think and I'm not saying notall white men, I'm not saying
any of that kind of foolishness,but it is a common issue that
they feel like entitled to talkto me and to have whatever
information that they can getout of me without respecting my
(54:57):
time or my boundaries.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Well, you know what Everybody needs to learn to
Google, even my dad.
My dad is 94, and sometimeshe'll ask me something and I'll
give him an answer.
And then other times I'm like,hey dad, ask the Google.
Gods, you know, you have acomputer, you can do this.
It's good for you, it will makeyou more independent.
He's like, oh, you're right,you're right, and my dad can
(55:22):
still like he just got a newcomputer, he can still manage
and get himself in trouble onhis computer.
That's the other thing with my.
Yeah.
Anyway, that's another topic.
We won't go there.
So, but I guess my lastquestion, because we're kind of
running out of time here.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
This has been so, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
I was gonna ask you a little bit about, like,
subsidiary rights, but maybe weshould just save that for an
off-air conversation.
I don't know how many peopleare.
Do you briefly, just a briefly,because that is I know you're
working with Fox Press on thatwhat are you doing with
subsidiary rights?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
Subsidiary rights are audio television it's movie
television, stage actually andnow video gaming rights are very
big, even large print rightsare things that I have dealt in.
So basically it's not just thepublishing, because publishing
(56:29):
is such, it's not just a printbook anymore, it can be five
other things.
So for publishers, I reach outto audio publishers and we'll
sell audio rights for them sothat the author will get
whatever, will get a percentageof whatever's their contract,
(56:49):
and then they'll have an audiobook of their work.
Or gaming rights is kind of thenewest one where gaming
companies are actually they'reread-along apps, usually in
other countries, but they willcome in and purchase an entire
catalog of it and then just takeall the stories and translate
them and turn them into theselittle read-along reading apps,
(57:13):
which is kind of brilliant andwonderful, because that
percentage of the world there'sa percentage of the world that
read on their phones and itopens up some opportunities
there.
And then, of course, everybody'sbig lottery ticket is the.
I don't even know how manytimes people come at me with, oh
, my book would be a great movie, and I was like that's good,
(57:34):
because writing a book andthinking it's going to be turned
into a movie or a Netflixseries is the same as buying a
lottery ticket.
You bought the ticket at least,and what I do is and in fact I
just did send some, a couple ofbooks off to a producer that is
(57:55):
interested in a certain genre,and I happen to know a few
different producers.
We also have some co-agents outin California where if we have
something come our way, we sendit out to them and say, hey, you
should start this.
One's got the potential.
I can see that it's commercialmarketability or whatever it
might be, and they will alsoshop them to producers as you
(58:17):
shop it to publishers.
And so basically, that isthat's my short story for
subsidiary rights.
But in this day and age, justbecause you write a book doesn't
mean it will be a movie.
But it is like I said, it's alottery ticket.
So at least you bought yourticket.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
Well gosh.
Thank you so much for all this,amy.
It's just a very eye-openingfor a lot of our listeners, I am
sure.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yeah.
So why don't you tell us tokind of wrap this all up?
Why don't you tell us where canpeople find out more about you
or metamorphosis?
And if they're interested inlearning more about querying and
things like that, where wouldyou send them?
Speaker 3 (59:05):
I would say go to metamorphosisliteraryagencycom,
our main website, or we have aFacebook page.
We've got a TikTok, all thethings, and it's all under
metamorphosisliteraryagency.
So any of those spots are gonnabe great and just be open to
(59:30):
any information that comes yourway.
Like, if you wanna know how toquery, Google it and then before
we try, there you go, there yougo.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
Ask the Google gods yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (59:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
All right.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us today, amy.
I know this was absolutelyfascinating for me as an
outsider of never having queriedbefore.
It's always good to hear what'sgoing on on that side of the
industry.
So thank you so much forjoining us To all our listeners.
Thank you also for being withus today.
Don't forget, you can join ourseven days to clarity of many
(01:00:10):
course via email.
We have officially justlaunched the new website so you
no longer have to go toauthorwheelcom slash stuff.
Now.
You can just go toauthorwheelcom.
It's right there on the frontpage.
You can't miss it.
So join our seven day minicourse and learn how to write a
(01:00:32):
mission statement and taglinefor your author career and,
until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Hi everyone, welcome to the Author Wheel podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Thriller Author and I'm Megan Haskell, Award-winning
Fantasy Adventure Author.
Together, we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
So today we have Amy Brewer with us on the show.
She's a literary agent withmetamorphosis and it was super
interesting because we spent alot of time talking to people in
the indie author space, as itwas really nice to check in with
traditional publishing, didn'tyou think, Megan?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, it really was, and this is one of the things
that we've talked about in thepast, but I really try to make
sure we reiterate is that we'revery agnostic as to which
publishing method is quoteunquote best.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
I don't think there is a best.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
There's just what's right for you and your goals and
what you're striving for, whyyou write.
So it was really, reallyinteresting to check in with an
agent who's in the trenches,working with authors and helping
them get traditional publishingcontracts.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, and it does seem to me that things are
changing in that, and there weresome things about that which I
will let you share that we havetalked about and maybe gotten
people a little upset with us.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, we got a little yelled at once.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yes, we did.
But now, why'd you tell aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, I mean.
So one of the big things that Ifound fascinating about this
conversation was her take onmarketing and the fact that she
readily admits that, no matteryour publishing choice, all
authors these days need to bespending time and energy on
(01:53):
marketing efforts, and thatreally does seem to be a change
from a few years ago.
I mean, like we said we gotinto a little trouble a few
years ago I mean not really, butlike we had a couple authors
get mad at us for saying that weruffled feathers.
Yes, that is a much better term.
We ruffled feathers when wemade this suggestion that even
(02:15):
traditional authors needed tospend time marketing, but that
was Amy's advice, so it's areally fascinating conversation
and I think you're really goingto find it interesting.
But before we get into that,greta what's been going on?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Well, I broke a writing record for me.
Now there's probably people outthere that are like oh you,
wimp you.
But I wrote at least maybe afew more 10,000 words in two
days and I got to say it'samazing what procrastination can
push you to, because that waswhy I had to do it.
(02:59):
So all I have left on book sixis the Dignumau chapters, which
I often don't write until afterI revise anyway.
So I'm feeling pretty goodabout that.
Now I'm moving on to gettingready for a family camping trip.
And then 20 books Vegas baby.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, I am so excited for that conference, but we'll
be talking more about that later, so for me I actually don't
have a whole lot to report.
I am just kind of keeping onkeeping on at the moment.
I've been back at the writingdesk so I've talked in the past
(03:39):
about the new morning writingritual and that is still going
strong.
I have not missed a singleweekday.
So that's my goal.
Monday through Friday, I wakeup early and I do my writing and
I have kept the streak alive.
Granted one of those days was 45words, but it counts.
45 words is better than zerowords.
(04:02):
Exactly, and that was on a daywhen I had gotten like six hours
of sleep.
So it was.
It was problematic, but in anycase I have kept the streak
alive.
So I'm very proud of that andI'm working on the third book in
the Aether series, which isalso interesting because the
other thing that I am or justfinished up by the time this
(04:25):
airs, is a free promotion forAether Bound, book one leading
into the launch of AetherCrossed, which is book two next
week.
So that's exciting and alsonerve-wracking.
I always want those launches togo so well and I plan so hard
and sometimes they hit andsometimes they don't.
(04:46):
So we'll see how it goes.
But that actually makes mesecretly kind of glad we're
going to be in Vegas because Iwon't be able to spend my whole
day hitting refresh on the bookretailer platforms dashboard
sites to see how many sales Iget.
That day.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, always good to stay away.
It'll force me to just kind ofignore it.
All righty, so let's get on withthe interview.
Today, we are very excited tohave with us Amy Brewer.
Amy is a senior literary agentat Metamorphosis.
Her intuitive humanunderstanding can help writers
(05:24):
bridge the communication gap andjump into the publishing world.
Her experience in the mentalhealth field and yoga training
help her to guide and assistclients with stress and anxiety
in this highly competitiveindustry.
All of this is pulled togetherwith a multitasking and
hyper-organized brain.
I could really use one of thoseso that at the end of every day
(05:48):
she feels accomplished andgrateful.
She is seeking captivatingstories of human connection and
books that touch her heart.
And Amy is also handlingsubsidiary rights for my
publisher, so I'm very excitedto talk with her.
Welcome to the podcast, amy.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate being apart of this and I'm excited to
be doing sub rights for FoxPress, because they're just
wonderful people.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, they are truly the nicest people ever.
So let's dive in.
Tell us a little bit more aboutyourself and how you got to be
Amy Brewer.
Literary agents atMetamorphosis.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
So I have to say, the story starts when I was about
15.
I was in English class and Igrew up just outside St Louis
and the girl that sat in frontof me, her name's Patti
Carruthers, and we had to sitalphabetically back then.
So it was Carruthers' chanceand, just by happens dance we
(06:57):
started chatting and we becamegood friends.
And then life happens, collegehappens, we went separate ways
and it was a situation of afterwe reconnected, when we had kids
and we're grown, and we startedtalking about writing.
She's always been a writer andI've always been a reader, and
(07:22):
we were exchanging books, as youdo, and going back and forth
and doing all those wonderfulthings.
And eventually she startedsaying, hey, could you read this
?
And I would read it and wewould talk about it, or we would
talk about edits or how itcould be better.
And this went on for 10 years,easily 10 years and finally,
back in 2016, she said, hey, ourkids are pretty grown, are you
(07:48):
ready to get serious about this?
And during that time, I was ayoga teacher and, like I said,
I've gone about my business andshe was working her jobs and I
said, yeah, let's do that.
So we kind of started looking atwhat we could do to succeed in
the publishing industry and wedecided it would work out well
if I did the business side andshe did the author side.
(08:11):
And both of us studied.
So I studied social media, Istudied publicity, I studied
sort of what you need to do, howto get an agent, all that stuff
, and she studied all of StephenKing's how to write a book, all
the Save the Cats, and she'slearned how to really write for
(08:31):
the market.
And then we kind of broughtthat together and by 2017, I
think, we landed an agent andhad our story ready to go and we
had thought, ok, we're going tostart with this little story
and we started it on Wattpad andwe ran it for a while and it
(08:52):
got really good reviews reallyquickly but of course it was
appealing to the audience.
It was a YA romance calledTexting Prince Charming, and
that is the audience of Wattpador it was this time and we got
enough looks and likes on itthat we could take that and
(09:13):
ended up landing an agent at aconference.
And after a while I kind ofrealized that what I had studied
and learned lent me towardsbeing an agent.
I had the information of all ofthat stuff, and so it really
was helpful to me that I wassort of like oh okay, I get the
(09:37):
business side of author, all Ineed is the connection.
So I started interning atMetaMarcuses that fall and I
interned for about six monthsand was made a full-time agent.
I want to say it was December2017, or maybe it could have
(09:58):
been December 2018.
So pre-COVID years getscrambled a little bit.
But I've been at it for almostsix years yeah, I've been at it
for almost six years and thenour book was released in the
spring of 2018.
So I guess it was I startedAgentee and that was December
2017.
And the book was released andwe just kind of went about it
(10:24):
and marketed our work and I justfell in love with the agenting
side of all of it.
I just decided this is what Ilike to do, because Patty didn't
really want to do all of thehonestly, the podcasts and the
sittings and the signings andall of that stuff and I thought,
(10:46):
well, this is such a fit.
And then, as I got to createrelationships with editors, I
just kind of grew and grew outof that.
So here I am almost six yearslater with I think I have 43
clients right now.
So I'm not including the subrights I sell for two publishers
(11:08):
, so two, almost threepublishers actually.
So it's been a wonderful sortof journey for all of that stuff
.
But yeah, that's a little bitmore about me On a personal side
.
I've been married for 25 years.
I can't even believe it.
My sweet husband and I have twobeautiful boys.
(11:29):
One of them turns 21.
Oh, that hurts me because it'snext week he turns 21.
And I'm just not ready for it.
And then my baby is 19.
And I don't care how old or howgiant he is, because he's six
foot.
He's still my baby.
So that's a little bit moreabout me personally.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That is so interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So I have a quick question here to interrupt
before we move on to more of ourstandard questions.
I'm going off track as we do,but so I'm very curious.
So you say, did you co-writethat first book or were you like
, how did that relationship work?
Because if you were doing thebusiness side of things like
(12:19):
that's a unique relationship.
I haven't quite heard of thattype of collaboration.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
So part of my.
I didn't physically write abunch of it.
I wrote a few little bits andpieces, but I have to credit
Patty with most of the writingof it.
But because I could study themarketing, I could say, oh, you
need more angst here.
They can't kiss yet they haveto.
I found that it was easy for meto fall into an editor role of
(12:51):
saying, oh, we need to hit thesemarks for it to sell to an
agent.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Gotcha, so kind of like a developmental editor sort
of a role.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yes, and she would send me every chapter and I'd go
over it and we looked at itcohesively and as you do as an
author, you shuffle chaptersaround and make things work.
But I realized in that, saying,oh, you've got to hit these
marks to sell.
I was like, oh, and that's nodifferent than what I do for my
(13:26):
authors now is saying, oh, Idon't want to mess with what
you've got and give my input,but you do have to hit these
three points for me to be ableto sell it.
Or you do need to hit this wordcount or take out this many
thousands of words for me to beable to sell it in the market
today.
(13:46):
So that's kind of mycontribution and I'm sure there
were some nuances that Icontributed because Patty and I
have known each other since wewere little.
There's little scenes we put inthat, as any author does, that
are sort of personal.
(14:06):
There's a scene between themain character and her best
friend where they're eatingmilkshakes and dipping their
french fries into theirmilkshakes, which is something
that Patty and I grew up doing.
So there's little things likethat.
But the majority of the writingwas hers but because she really
(14:27):
wasn't interested in the otherend.
It was a great partnership andwe still are best friends.
I just chatted with her thismorning.
We have not, because it is thenorm in publishing.
It is now off the shelves andwe haven't written anything new
because life happens and gets inthe way.
(14:48):
But, like I said, I found thisfound agent team to be really
what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
That's great, that's right.
It's nice to hear thatrelationship.
I feel like historically thatwas always the kind of ideal
when a new author finally got anagent.
It was a little bit more of acollaboration potentially, or
the agent really supporting thatwork.
And I feel like too often thesedays we hear stories of, well,
(15:17):
I've just got too many clients,I can only take the books that
are already 100% ready to go,and so I've heard advice now
that you should edit before youpay for an editor and pay to
have the developmental edit andthe copy edit done before you
start querying agents and thingslike that.
So what's your opinion on that?
(15:37):
Is that something that is that?
Am I correct in my poorassumptions, or is that?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
No, you are absolutely right.
And because it is a situationof at this point you definitely
have to know not necessarilyknow all the points, Because
usually within the first threechapters I'm reading something I
can say, oh, I can sell this.
(16:05):
And then I always finishreading and then I can come in
and say, OK, you need to hitthis mark or that mark or the
pasting, or you could take thisscene out because it's lags or
whatever.
But most of the time I amlooking for a work that is at
least 90% ready to go.
If it's 100% ready to go,awesome.
(16:26):
But editors are now looking forworks that are when I am out
there shopping.
They want to do very little.
They're stretched even morethin than agents are, so I try
very hard to make sure it is theleast amount of work is
possible as I send it out toeditors.
(16:47):
But I guess the ask is, yes,before you send it out to agents
, do you have to have itprofessionally copy edited?
No, should you have sent itthrough Grammarly at least twice
?
Yes, or whatever other softwarethat will help you get out your
(17:08):
filter words.
It helps take out shallow POV,it points out repetitive words
and generally the grammar isimportant.
I had a submission from someonevery, very smart person who I
believe was a doctor, and theyhad submitted to me I want to
(17:30):
say an APA style and I was likeI'm sorry, we only accept CSM
style in fiction.
And they wrote back to me withwell, apa is better.
And I was like I got to make upthis rule, it's not like.
(17:51):
I was like, oh, this is myfavorite one, so it has to be in
that.
No, no, I don't make the rules,I just try to follow them and
tell people OK, this is what itneeds to be.
But I will say grammar isdefinitely.
If I get through the firstthree chapters and I've only
noticed one or two little errorsnot grammar necessarily, but
(18:13):
just little things then it won't.
I can read past it.
But sometimes I can see on pageone that someone is not
familiar with the rules of CSMor they're just generally like.
I can tell a new author a lot oftimes because of some of the
(18:35):
things that stand out.
And that's why I think beforeyou submit to anybody, it should
go through rounds and roundsand rounds with all of your beta
readers, lots of friends thatpeople that you are not related
to, people that will be mean andsay, hey, this doesn't work.
And then I would say, work withand they don't have to be a
(18:58):
professional professional, youdon't have to pay thousands of
dollars.
But if you have a reading groupand you can establish with a
friend of yours sort of a tradesituation, they edit for you and
you edit for them and you trustthem.
Or even working with an author,the brilliant author and I
(19:18):
always say it's Jody Thomas, notJody Thompson, because the two
of them I get switched into mybrain all the time.
But Jody Thomas, she actuallysort of coaches young authors
and up-and-coming authors on oh,this is how it's supposed to
sound, and she's not aprofessional editor, she's just
a New York Times bestseller andit is just one of those things
(19:43):
that the more input you havefrom other people and then the
more, like I said, the tighterit is as far as copy edits, the
better chance you have success.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So I wanted to bring up that you had in your bio.
You mentioned mental health andit's so true.
I mean, this business is aroller coaster, right?
Emotional roller coaster.
So I was just wondering how doyou specifically help your
(20:16):
authors work through that?
I mean, do you give them yogaposes or breaths?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
You know what do you do.
Sometimes it's a breath work.
You know there's everythingfrom it's different for every
author.
Some authors don't even want tohear the negative feedback.
They don't want to know unlessthere is a detail that will help
them edit.
Others are a little bit likehave a thicker skin and like,
(20:43):
yeah, bring it, I don't care,you can share whatever with me.
But generally it is because itis sort of like screaming into
the void by my book.
It's helping them understandthat they need to write because
they have a passion for writingand a love for it more than a
(21:05):
sense of I have to succeed.
I have to sell a million booksto be a success.
Instead, it's the letting go ofthe ego and saying I've written
this work, it is published, itis in my hand and I can take
pride in that, you know, andmaybe a hundred people will buy
it and maybe 20,000 people willbuy it.
But that does not dictatewhether or not your book is good
(21:28):
or whether or not you are asuccess as an author, because in
this day and age it's too hardto say oh.
To be a success, I have to makeoh.
You know, I have to do this ordo that or do that.
Instead, it's about sittingwith yourself and going I have
created something out of nothingand now I'm holding it in my
(21:50):
hands and it is tangible and itmight only impact one or two
people, it might only reach thespirits of one or two people or
make somebody laugh one personleft, but that has to be enough.
So it's sort of that acceptanceof self and acceptance of where
you are.
Also in the you know, authorsget caught up in this
(22:13):
expectation they see on TV orwhatever oh, I'm going to be the
next.
You know, I'm going to writethe next Twilight or the next
Harry Potter.
And she made a billion dollarsand that's the math.
And it's more me kind ofbringing them down to the
reality of.
You know, those are theoutliers, those are the lottery
(22:34):
winners, really, and even thoughthe book they have written is
probably superior to some of theones that have made gazillions
of dollars, it is the morenormal path to write seven to
ten books and publishindependently and publish with
(22:54):
small companies before thelarger presses start to take
notice and sort of just sort ofbringing authors back down to
the reality but also notsquelching their dreams.
I have a phenomenal author and Ijust love him to pieces, and
just this week, in fact, hiscontract is coming through.
(23:15):
He had this dream that he couldturn his book, his book, his
five book series, actually intoa board game or card game, and
it's just been his thing.
He's always wanted this, and sowe had a Zoom with the
publisher and the publisher said, yeah, I know, one of our
(23:37):
illustrators works with a gamingcompany and so, instead of be
saying okay, that's a pipe dreamand squashing it, I connected
him to someone who can actuallyhelp him and work with him to
achieve that goal, and so Ithink that's part of it.
It's just like it's aconnecting author, so they don't
(23:59):
feel like they're out therealone.
Another thing that I do is wehave our team because I'm very
Gen X, it's called Team Awesomeand it's like all 42 of my
authors and we support eachother.
So when one of the books comesout, I send out a book blast so
(24:19):
everybody knows and if they wanta copy, I try to get them a
copy so they can leave reviewsfor each other and they can
share on social media, and mostof them do support their fellow
authors.
My romance authors have kind ofa little subgroup where they
(24:42):
edit and write reviews for eachother in kind of rotation, and
so that works out really well.
So it's just taking that feelingof, oh my gosh, here I am alone
with a computer, and making itfeel less lonely and making you
feel like, okay, I'm part of ateam, I'm part of a support
group, and also letting themknow they can reach out to me if
(25:06):
they need to with text or memeor whatever.
Sometimes somebody will say, hey, I'm really blocked.
I had a phenomenal author whowrites YA and she got a divorce
and stopped writing YA and wrotea horror thriller, because
(25:27):
that's what came out of thattime in her life and it made
sense to me and instead ofsaying, oh well, this is it for
you, you're only going to writeYA, I was like sure I'll give it
a shot, it's a well writtenbook, so let's look at the
options here.
So it's supporting the whole ofthe author and understanding,
(25:49):
okay, this person is goingthrough some stuff that doesn't
you know.
I can wait until they're readyto write again, because I want
to invest in a whole person andin a lifetime and not just in a.
Oh, this book will stop.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
I love that, because I think that that is critical,
because you hear so many storiesabout authors.
You know the two book curse.
They got right.
They sign a contract and if theyou know the two, first two
books in a series or whateverdon't just fly off the shelves
(26:25):
and they're just dropped like a.
And how many times does thathappen?
I mean, honestly, it can takefour and five books in a series
before a series catches on andthen then books one and two will
fly off the shelves.
But so it's a.
It's very.
I love that you're saying thatyou're investing in the author,
in a career, versus just in thisone product that they, that
(26:49):
they created.
So, getting back to our normalquestions, what do you think the
greatest roadblock to successthat the authors you work with
encounter?
And as an adjunct to that youcould just say and how do you
help them overcome it?
(27:09):
And if you sort of already saidit with the emotional things, I
can move on to another questionthat's a similar one.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
No, I think the biggest roadblock that authors
encounter is is the businessside.
I work with some incredibleauthors that just adamantly
refuse to do the business sideand when I say business side, I
(27:38):
annual I'm sure I'll talk aboutthis quite a bit on the podcast
is I expect my authors to haveactive social media, because
that is the first thing thateditors look at.
They'll look at your socialmedia.
They look at your interactionlevels.
They don't think you don't needto have a million followers,
(27:59):
but the more followers you have,the better, obviously.
But I have some, you know, somesort of say old school authors
who are still in that mindsetthat, oh, I can write and if I
write, well, that's all that Ineed to do.
And that's not how it isanymore.
That's not how it works.
Now we are in a place where JohnGreen, who has severe anxiety
(28:23):
but is obviously a super famousauthor and probably has to write
anything again and still beconsidered one of the best
authors of the last 20 years,for sure, he has a daily TikTok
that he is out there, puttinghimself out there, doing his
publicity, doing what he needsto do, and because even he was,
(28:46):
you know, when he got on TikTokand he did that.
He had a he went from there hadbeen a lull in turtles all the
way down and he mentioned it afew times and then it spiked
right back up to the New YorkTimes bestseller list and
turtles was like three or fourbooks ago for him, so that's why
(29:07):
it wasn't his newest work, butit's that, to me, is what I see
is the biggest barrier is anauthor just wants to write, when
now I would say, 50 to 60% ofbeing an author is the business
side and running it like abusiness, knowing exactly how
(29:27):
much you're investing, having itset up properly for your taxes,
understanding that is.
You know, this is a commitmentthat goes beyond just getting
words down on the page, and sowhat do I do to help them?
I'm constantly sending herehere's marketing ideas, here's a
group of podcasts, here's agroup of reviewers.
(29:49):
Again like building thatsupport group, like I said,
where everybody else can shareon each other's social media, as
we share each other's socialmedia, so that we can just make
sure we all like each other andcan like, you know, like their
posts and support them.
Just even.
Just, like I said, even justclicking on a like or googling
(30:12):
an author's name can help thealgorithm.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So just reminding everybody of that and, like I
said, supporting that team, yeah, that's that's so important and
it's such a pervasive myth Ithink, particularly for those
authors who are trying to gettraditional deals, that they
don't.
They don't have to do marketing, but it is.
(30:37):
It's time consuming and it'sincredibly important that you
have to.
You have to get the word outthere.
There's just too much noise.
We have too many, too manydifferent entertainment options
these days.
That to to get eyeballs on youryour you know book, that's
going to take somebody eighthours to read or or listen to,
or whatever, however they chooseto do it.
(30:58):
I mean, you go to Netflix.
You can watch a two-hour moviefor quote-unquote free.
Why would you like gettingsomebody to buy your book and
sit and read?
It is a huge hurdle.
So you've got to get out thereand you've got to get the word
out.
So I think that's great.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's one of the things that Megan and I teach at
conferences and things is.
In fact, it was the first thingwe ever taught in our first
book that we wrote together init and it sort of compares and
contrasts traditional publishing, which is the route that I went
with my first series, andindependent publishing, which is
where Megan went.
(31:39):
And so we would talk and it wasamazing how many people we
would bump into that would say,oh no, I need an agent and a
traditional publisher because Idon't want to do any marketing.
And we would both laugh and say, well, not doing any marketing
is not an option, regardless ofwhich direction you go.
So that is just the reality, asyou said, of today's literary
(32:06):
world.
There's just a lot of noise, alot of options, and I've got to
get you.
It's not the days where therewas six publishers and they had
a handful of people and you justgot what you got when you went
to the library.
There's just so much.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, and I'll add something else here too.
Another thing that we teach andI'm curious kind of your
perspective on this, amy becauseone thing that we do say, too,
is that you don't have to shareeverything of yourself.
You don't have to share allaspects of your personality.
If you're comfortable with that, great, but if you're not, then
choosing the slice of your lifethat you're willing to share is
(32:50):
a sustainable way of doing it,especially for those of us who
are introverted or shy, or justprotect our privacy a little bit
more, or however you want tophrase that.
So, given that, what kind ofslice of life do you encourage
your writers those that arereluctant to do marketing or
social media and things likethat?
(33:11):
How do you encourage them toshare that piece of themselves,
and how do you recommend thatthey go about doing that?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I go with whatever they feel most comfortable with
and unless she's not one of myclients, I cannot take any
credit for this.
But her name's, oh gosh.
Now I'm going to blank on theauthor name, but then the name
of her book is the Ghost and theWolf and it's just a very cool
(33:40):
work and in it they gogeocaching into some spooky
areas and when they aregeocaching, adventures and
shenanigans ensue.
And her Instagram is not awhole bunch of pictures of her
(34:02):
and her family or her and hercat or her writing.
They are different spooky spotsof geocached around.
You can go oh, that was in thebook, or, if you haven't read
the book, it's still just a coolspooky picture, but it all
references back.
So if you have the capacity andthe creativity, I'm all about
(34:29):
you as an entity, because youcan be your writer, entity, self
.
You don't have to be yourauthentic self.
I'm okay with that, but I dothink I do.
Since it's publicity more thanmarketing, I think it's
important to be about half andhalf, so half about your book
and half about this is my life.
(34:52):
This is what I'm doing littlethings.
I also recommend to be on aschedule, a social media
schedule, to make it easy onyourself.
I follow this wonderful.
She's a Harlequin author, hername is Silver James.
She's not my author, I justlike her and I follow her on
(35:14):
Facebook.
And every Saturday is ShirtsOff Saturday, so I know Saturday
morning I turn on Facebookthere's going to be some hunky
guy without a shirt on becauseit's Shirts Off Saturday.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
I'm so in line with her for a moment.
I'm sorry.
I just had to and I was like,wow, that's really exposing
herself on social media.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Okay, sorry, I just had to interject that, no, I'm
still here with things.
That's hilarious, but she keepsit.
And then she writes her blogand releases it on Sundays.
So Mondays it's a hey, here'sthe blog I wrote yesterday.
This is a picture of me and acat or whatever, and it's a
little bit about what the blogis.
So she's on this nice steadyschedule so she doesn't have to
(35:58):
come up with oh gosh, what am Igoing to post today?
And I think that's perfectlyacceptable and wonderful to go.
Okay.
On Wednesdays, amanda McCabe,another romance author she does.
On Wednesdays, we wear pinksometimes because you know she's
that and so it's reallyhandsome guys wearing pink
(36:20):
shirts.
Or when she's researching abook, because she writes
historicals.
When she's researching a book,she has a wonderful series that
is like a 20s mysteries, and soit will be getting, you know,
20s fashions because she'sresearching all of this stuff.
(36:41):
Or if she's, you know, goingdeeper or in a regency area,
we'll get all of this regencystuff.
So I think you can, like I said,do a little bit, because
sometimes it's okay.
Here's me and my dog snuggledup, or you know me having a
glass of wine after a hard dayor something like that, but I do
think about 50% book relatedand 50% this is me, or this is
(37:05):
at least my author persona.
Now, some people don't have theoh, like you were saying, are
shy, but that's why I think thewhole word persona kind of comes
in, because even if they're not, you could sort of do a Lemony
Snicket situation where he wasthere but it wasn't actually him
(37:29):
and he could be bigger andbolder and wilder because he
wasn't representing himself.
He was representing LemonySnicket and I think that's
perfectly acceptable.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah, I've heard about, you know.
You hear about like people whoare very shy, retiring people,
and then they get into puppetryand you see their puppet
characters and they're just likethe most outgoing, extravagant,
loud puppet characters and youthink that is that.
But there's something abouthaving this other character in
(38:07):
front of you that just can makeyou feel more bold.
I had a kind of a nice bookrelease recently and instead of
I felt embarrassed, sharing someof the good reviews like, oh,
look at me, I got this goodreview.
So instead I just was it saidoh, you know, imogen and the
gang at Greener Pastures were soexcited to see and for some
(38:30):
reason, just saying like it wascoming from my characters just
made it so much easier for me.
So I think that's a really goodtip.
You know that sometimes or theyfor authors who have a pen name
that you know your pen namekind of represents the voice of
your characters and the voice ofyour writing, so you can kind
(38:51):
of respond to things in yourbook the way that your
characters would.
And you know it's a part ofthat, is a part of you, but it
isn't 100% you and that can makeyou feel a little more bold,
you know.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah, I want to one other quick story too.
Faith Hunter, who writes urbanfantasy I don't know if she
still is doing this or not, shemight be, but for a while one of
her main character, janeYellowrock, is a shapeshifter
and shares kind of a soul with amountain lion or a puma, and so
(39:26):
that mountain lion has now,because of magic and time and so
forth and so on, taken on aanthropomorphic personality, and
so she was doing posts fromBeast as the as this mountain
lion, and it was all about likehunting deer and not
understanding human psyche atall and you know, like it was
(39:50):
very funny and very cool and itwas such a great way to engage
with readers from a completelydifferent perspective.
Now I don't know.
I don't know Faith personally.
I don't know why she chose todo that.
If it was, you know, because ofher own personal you know
boundaries and things.
But it worked really well andif you do have those issues,
(40:10):
then that can be a great way toovercome them.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Absolutely, and we do character interviews as part of
our Metamorphosis blog, whichis always really nice and so
that it is the characteranswering the questions and you
can be in character doing that,and I think that is important.
But another part of sort ofmarketing and publicity is for
(40:37):
me, because this was actuallybefore TikTok on Instagram, as
we led up to the release oftexting Prince Charming, I did a
who Is your Prince Charming?
And so every day was a post ofanother hunky, you know, man,
woman, it didn't matter.
(40:57):
You know, is this your PrinceCharming?
Could this be your Prince, youknow, and just to get
interaction and things like that.
And so there wasn't a whole lotof visuals of you know, here's
Patty and I, excited about this.
It was more hey, you know,let's start thinking about who
Prince Charming could be,because that's the premise of
(41:19):
the book.
So you can always find ways tonot to protect yourself and your
privacy, I think.
But you have to have a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Well and honestly, readers, when we're talking
fiction readers are mostlyattracted to the book, the world
of the book.
So if you're sharing somethingthat is going to be interesting
to people who like that world,you know, I think, more than
(41:56):
what you ate for breakfast, it'sjust I mean like okay, here I
had this amazing meal and youwanna share a picture of the
amazing meal?
Well, yeah, if you write a bookabout that takes place in a
restaurant, you could sharemeals all day long.
My books, my new series takesplace mostly in a mortuary.
They're not gonna be interestedin meals so much.
(42:18):
You know what I mean so, butthey're like, yeah, right, so
you know, thinking about whatyour readers might be interested
in.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
I think that's a really that is a really really
Knowing your demographic is alsoextremely important, so yeah,
Import very, very good, sothere's also so shifting off of
how you help your currentauthors.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
I know that this is something that a lot of our
listeners are gonna wanna know.
Other than what we coveredabout getting your manuscript in
as clean and beautifulcondition as you can get it, can
you give our listeners sometips?
You know, if they are seekingrepresentation, what are some
(43:06):
best practices and things thatmight help them along the way?
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Understanding your genre, which means, if you are
writing a romance, don't send mea hundred thousand word romance
and say, oh okay, I'm gonnabreak all the rules, because, as
a debut author, unless you aresomething profound, you're not
(43:37):
going to break all the rules.
That's, the publishing industryis not going to let you.
So, knowing your genre and Isay this because I have my
favorite honestly, my favoritesubmission, maybe of all time,
was and I don't even rememberthe title of the book, but it
was an erotica novel and it was300,000 words.
(44:02):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, I mean, I don't even wanna think about what is
in that 300,000 erotica words?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I don't even wanna think about that.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
That's long, exactly Because they were so out of
touch with the erotica genrewhich is usually about 30 on the
long side that they had no ideathey had just.
And I get so many folks sendingme stuff that is just like they
(44:37):
have never researched, they'venever Googled it, they don't
know what their word countshould be, they don't understand
that.
You know, especially like ifyou're writing a formulaic
romance or commercial romance,that you have to hit the points
or that you have to have ahappily ever after.
Some people don't realize that,and so when I give feedback I
(45:01):
try to say, hey, look at this,look at that, be aware of this
because, like I said, a lot ofit is just new writer stuff.
But this is before you get toan agent level.
You really need to be at apoint where you have studied,
you've researched, you know youare spot on the money for what
that agent is looking for.
(45:23):
That is another thing where Iwould say a significant portion
of the rejections that I handout, or for people that send me
stuff on genres I don'trepresent, and I understand that
right now my wish list is alittle bit vague and it's sort
of vague on purpose, but I havegotten so many submissions for
(45:45):
like dark psychological horror,and I have accidentally sold a
couple of those, but not onpurpose, because I don't read
horror.
I don't enjoy it.
I think it's a wonderful genreand I mean no shade at all to it
(46:06):
, but it's just not what Irepresent.
I don't know a lot of editorsin that genre and so I like to.
I love to read YA and I love toread romance, so that is what I
specialize in.
But it is shocking the amount ofpeople that are sort of a oh
any portness storm, any agent,and you can feel that when it's
(46:29):
out there and you're like, oh,they don't even know what I
represent or what I have hadsuccess in selling.
So do some due diligence andlook up the agents.
Look up what they actually buyand sell.
Pay attention to what they have, like I said, had success in.
(46:54):
Because, like I said, a giantchunk of my rejections are just
because it's so off genre for meand no, I haven't even read a
word of their work.
But I'm like, oh, no, I don'twanna read that because that's
not a genre that I enjoy.
So that's kind of a thing.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Submission guidelines .
Is that something that you postlike on the Metamorphosis
website?
Is that like, stop number one,or does it go what's the best?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
path.
I would say submissionguidelines it's the submissions
page onmetamorphosisliteraryagencycom.
But, and almost every agent hassome submission guidelines
manuscript wish list or even onquery manager.
I think that's yeah, submissionmanager or whatever.
(47:52):
The flip side of the program is, they'll tell you exactly what
agents are buying.
It's not that hard even to justpunch an agent type in Amy
Brewer, literary agent and seewhat pops up.
Checking it out, looking atsort of the agencies too.
(48:14):
I send a lot of folks who sendme really high fantasy and I
love, like a YA fantasy.
But again, and I'veaccidentally sold some but I
send really high fantasy folksusually over to Jabberwocky
because that whole housespecializes in that and so that
(48:37):
just knowing sort of okay, evenyou don't have to dig deep, you
don't have to get into FBIbusiness where you find their
Facebook page and go, oh, I havetwo kids too.
That isn't relevant, but likeit's just making sure that
they're gonna be a fit for yourgenre.
It's just, I think, step onethat a lot of people don't make.
(49:00):
Another thing is I don't evenknow how many people have sent
me manuscripts on LinkedIn, eventhough it says specifically on
my LinkedIn profile do not queryme or I do not take this here,
but and I have no idea if theycount that as a rejection,
because I do not interact onLinkedIn hardly at all but also
(49:22):
sort of being aware of okay andeverything on Metamorphosis will
direct you towards querymanager to submit to us, to all
of the agents there, but knowingexactly what format the agent
takes clients in.
I might be my fourth or fifthpodcast interview that I've done
(49:45):
and it's always nice when I'mtalking to someone, they're like
oh, I listened to your podcast,I know this would be a fit for
what you're doing right now, orsomething like that, something a
little bit more fresh, becausesometimes somebody will hit me
with oh well, you were lookingfor this back in 2018, and I'm
(50:06):
like well, it's 2023, the markethas changed and, as any agent,
my taste has changed with it.
So, yeah, that awareness, Ithink, is step one.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
That's sort of a respect thing too, isn't it?
It's kind of like you're askingsomebody for a date and you
don't even know anything aboutthem.
You don't even know if they'resingle.
Whatever it's a respect issueto.
If you're asking someone totake the time to take a look at
(50:42):
your work and potentially enterinto what could be a very
long-term relationship, youbetter darn well know a few
things about them and whatthey're interested in and what
they're looking for.
You know, I was talking to aman agent at a conference one
time and he told me his worst solike yours was getting the
300-word erotica novel and hiswas somebody pitching him at the
(51:10):
urinal at a conference.
He was like I don't care whatI'm doing, I'm going to the
bathroom here.
I mean, it's like there is.
There can be a desperate sensein some writers sometimes and I
can imagine that as an agentthat's just a real turn off
right there.
You know.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yes, and like him, I have been pitched in the
bathroom.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
I really hoped that was like a rare anecdote, which
is not a standard thing thatevery Asian experiences.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
It's not.
I've actually been pitched inthe bathroom and then had
somebody waiting for me outsidethe bathroom, which is, I guess,
a little bit better, but stilljust as off-putting.
And if I'm sitting somewherequietly at a conference, I don't
mind if someone walks up andsays, hey, can I have a minute
of your time?
That's fine, but some peoplefeel entitled to agent time and
(52:18):
that is, and you said, exactlyright.
Because what you're askingsomeone to read when they send
you a query and they send youthe first three chapters, is
you're asking for about a halfan hour of a very busy person's
time, and that is.
That can be daunting to do.
But it also isn't every singlehuman being's right to have that
(52:41):
much of my time.
I have to kind of respect mytime and my boundaries and say,
oh no, this is not appropriate,or just easily, like I said, let
it go without that Because it'syeah, otherwise I would never
leave my desk.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, like I said, I do think alot of that's a respect thing,
and so people don't recognizealways that, yes, there's the
book, there's the manuscript,there's that whole side of it,
but then there's just also thecommon sense, common decency,
human side of it.
Like nobody wants to enter intoa long-term relationship with
(53:26):
somebody that they findobnoxious or off-putting, even
if their book was great.
You know what I mean.
So there is this, it's a bookand it's a human being.
So be a good human being too.
I think is an excellent tip forpeople.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
I mean, it's just sort of common sense.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
But why does common sense fly out the window
sometimes?
Speaker 3 (53:49):
Well, and I think you said it, it's a fear and
desperation Forces people tosort of behave in ways they
wouldn't normally behave, or atleast that's what I assume
Sometimes I will be.
And I don't mean any disrespectto older white gentlemen, but
(54:11):
they just think that I owe themtime so they will stop and talk
to me and ask questions, likewhen I'm brushing, like if I'm
in a conference and I'm goingbetween speaking and then taking
pitches or whatever I'm usuallyin motion, and they'll stop me
just to chat because they havethat entitlement.
(54:34):
I think and I'm not saying notall white men, I'm not saying
any of that kind of foolishness,but it is a common issue that
they feel like entitled to talkto me and to have whatever
information that they can getout of me without respecting my
(54:57):
time or my boundaries.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Well, you know what Everybody needs to learn to
Google, even my dad.
My dad is 94, and sometimeshe'll ask me something and I'll
give him an answer.
And then other times I'm like,hey dad, ask the Google.
Gods, you know, you have acomputer, you can do this.
It's good for you, it will makeyou more independent.
He's like, oh, you're right,you're right, and my dad can
(55:22):
still like he just got a newcomputer, he can still manage
and get himself in trouble onhis computer.
That's the other thing with my.
Yeah.
Anyway, that's another topic.
We won't go there.
So, but I guess my lastquestion, because we're kind of
running out of time here.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
This has been so, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
I was gonna ask you a little bit about, like,
subsidiary rights, but maybe weshould just save that for an
off-air conversation.
I don't know how many peopleare.
Do you briefly, just a briefly,because that is I know you're
working with Fox Press on thatwhat are you doing with
subsidiary rights?
Speaker 3 (56:08):
Subsidiary rights are audio television it's movie
television, stage actually andnow video gaming rights are very
big, even large print rightsare things that I have dealt in.
So basically it's not just thepublishing, because publishing
(56:29):
is such, it's not just a printbook anymore, it can be five
other things.
So for publishers, I reach outto audio publishers and we'll
sell audio rights for them sothat the author will get
whatever, will get a percentageof whatever's their contract,
(56:49):
and then they'll have an audiobook of their work.
Or gaming rights is kind of thenewest one where gaming
companies are actually they'reread-along apps, usually in
other countries, but they willcome in and purchase an entire
catalog of it and then just takeall the stories and translate
them and turn them into theselittle read-along reading apps,
(57:13):
which is kind of brilliant andwonderful, because that
percentage of the world there'sa percentage of the world that
read on their phones and itopens up some opportunities
there.
And then, of course, everybody'sbig lottery ticket is the.
I don't even know how manytimes people come at me with, oh
, my book would be a great movie, and I was like that's good,
(57:34):
because writing a book andthinking it's going to be turned
into a movie or a Netflixseries is the same as buying a
lottery ticket.
You bought the ticket at least,and what I do is and in fact I
just did send some, a couple ofbooks off to a producer that is
(57:55):
interested in a certain genre,and I happen to know a few
different producers.
We also have some co-agents outin California where if we have
something come our way, we sendit out to them and say, hey, you
should start this.
One's got the potential.
I can see that it's commercialmarketability or whatever it
might be, and they will alsoshop them to producers as you
(58:17):
shop it to publishers.
And so basically, that isthat's my short story for
subsidiary rights.
But in this day and age, justbecause you write a book doesn't
mean it will be a movie.
But it is like I said, it's alottery ticket.
So at least you bought yourticket.
Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
Well gosh.
Thank you so much for all this,amy.
It's just a very eye-openingfor a lot of our listeners, I am
sure.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yeah.
So why don't you tell us tokind of wrap this all up?
Why don't you tell us where canpeople find out more about you
or metamorphosis?
And if they're interested inlearning more about querying and
things like that, where wouldyou send them?
Speaker 3 (59:05):
I would say go to metamorphosisliteraryagencycom,
our main website, or we have aFacebook page.
We've got a TikTok, all thethings, and it's all under
metamorphosisliteraryagency.
So any of those spots are gonnabe great and just be open to
(59:30):
any information that comes yourway.
Like, if you wanna know how toquery, Google it and then before
we try, there you go, there yougo.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
Ask the Google gods yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (59:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
All right.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us today, amy.
I know this was absolutelyfascinating for me as an
outsider of never having queriedbefore.
It's always good to hear what'sgoing on on that side of the
industry.
So thank you so much forjoining us To all our listeners.
Thank you also for being withus today.
Don't forget, you can join ourseven days to clarity of many
(01:00:10):
course via email.
We have officially justlaunched the new website so you
no longer have to go toauthorwheelcom slash stuff.
Now.
You can just go toauthorwheelcom.
It's right there on the frontpage.
You can't miss it.
So join our seven day minicourse and learn how to write a
(01:00:32):
mission statement and taglinefor your author career and,
until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
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