August 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Shawn Tierney meets up with Tom Weingartner of PI (Profibus Profinet International) to learn about PROFINET and System Redundancy in this episode of The Automation Podcast.
For any links related to this episode, check out the "Show Notes" located below the video.
Watch The Automation Podcast from The Automation Blog:
Listen to The Automation Podcast from The Automation Blog:
The Automation Podcast, Episode 244 Show Notes:
Special thanks to Tom Weingartner for coming on the show, and to Siemens for sponsoring this episode so we could release it ad free on all platforms! To learn more PROFINET, see the below links:
PROFINET One-Day Training Slide Deck
PROFINET One-Day Training Class Dates
IO-Link Workshop Dates
PROFINET University
Certified Network Engineer Course
Read the transcript on The Automation Blog: (automatically generated)
Shawn Tierney (Host): Welcome back to the automation podcast. My name is Shawn Tierney from Insights and Automation, and I wanna thank you for tuning back in this week. Now on this show, I actually had the opportunity to sit down with Thomas Weingoner from PI to learn all about PROFINET. I actually reached out to him because I had some product vendors who wanted me to cover their s two features in their products, and I thought it would be first it'd be better to actually sit down and get a refresh on what s two is. It's been five years since we've had a PROFINET expert on, so I figured now would be a good time before we start getting into how those features are used in different products.
So with that said, I also wanna mention that Siemens has sponsored the episode, so it will be completely ad free. I love it when vendor sponsor the shows. Not only do we get the breakeven on the show itself, we also get to release it ad free and make the video free as well. So thank you, Siemens. If you see anybody from Siemens, thank them for sponsoring the Automation Podcast.
As a matter of fact, thank any vendor who's ever sponsored any of our shows. We really appreciate them. One final PSA that I wanna throw out there is that, speaking like I talked about this yesterday on my show, Automation Tech Talk, As we've seen with the Ethernet POCs we're talking about, a lot of micro POCs that were $250 ten years ago are now $400. Right? That's a lot of inflation, right, for various reasons.
Right? And so one of the things I did this summer is I took a look at my P and L, my pros profit and loss statements, and I just can't hold my prices where they are and be profitable. Right? So if I'm not breaking even, the company goes out of business, and we'll have no more episodes of the show. So how does this affect you?
If you are a student over at the automation school, you have until mid September to do any upgrades or purchase any, courses at the 2020 prices. Alright? So I I don't wanna raise the prices. I've tried as long as I can, but at some point, you have to give in to what the prices are that your vendors are charging you, and you have to raise the prices. So, all my courses are buy one, sell them forever, so this does not affect anybody who's enrolled in a course.
Actually, all of you folks rolled in my PLC courses, I see it updates every week now. So and those who get the ultimate bundles, you're seeing new lessons added to the new courses because you get that preorder access plus some additional stuff. So in any case but, again, I wanna reiterate, if you're a vendor who has an old balance or if you are a student who wants to buy a new course, please, make your plans in the next couple of weeks because in mid September, I do have to raise the prices. So I just wanna throw that PSA out there. I know a lot of people don't get to the end of the show.
That's what I wanted to do at the beginning. So with that said, let's jump right into this week's podcast and learn all about Profinet. I wanna welcome to the show, Tom from Profibus,
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the automation podcast. My name
is Sean Tierney from Insights and Automation, and
I wanna thank you for tuning back in
this week. Now on this show, I actually
had the opportunity to sit down with Thomas
Weingoner from PI to learn all about PROFINET.
I actually reached out to him because I
had some product vendors who wanted me to
cover their s two features
(00:21):
in their products, and I thought it would
be first it'd be better to actually sit
down and get a refresh on what s
two is. It's been five years since we've
had a PROFINET expert on, so I figured
now would be a good time before we
start getting into how those features are used
in different products.
So with that said, I also wanna mention
that Siemens has sponsored the episode, so it
(00:41):
will be completely ad free. I love it
when vendor sponsor the shows. Not only do
we get the breakeven on the show itself,
we also get to release it ad free
and make the video free as well. So
thank you, Siemens. If you see anybody from
Siemens, thank them for sponsoring the Automation Podcast.
As a matter of fact, thank any vendor
who's ever sponsored any of our shows. We
really appreciate them.
(01:02):
One final PSA that I wanna throw out
there is that,
speaking like I talked about this yesterday on
my show, Automation Tech Talk,
As we've seen with the Ethernet POCs we're
talking about, a lot of micro POCs that
were $250
ten years ago are now $400.
Right? That's a lot of inflation, right, for
various reasons. Right?
(01:22):
And so one of the things I did
this summer is I took a look at
my P and L, my pros profit and
loss statements, and I just can't hold my
prices where they are and be profitable. Right?
So if I'm not breaking even, the company
goes out of business, and we'll have no
more episodes of the show. So how does
this affect you? If you are a student
over at the automation school, you have until
(01:43):
mid September to do any upgrades
or purchase any, courses at the 2020 prices.
Alright? So I I don't wanna raise the
prices. I've tried as long as I can,
but at some point, you have to give
in to what the prices are that your
vendors are charging you, and you have to
raise the prices. So,
all my courses are buy one, sell them
forever, so this does not affect anybody who's
(02:03):
enrolled in a course. Actually, all of you
folks rolled in my PLC courses, I see
it updates every week now. So and those
who get the ultimate bundles, you're seeing new
lessons added to the new courses because you
get that preorder access plus some additional stuff.
So in any case but, again, I wanna
reiterate,
if you're a vendor who has an old
balance or if you are a student who
wants to buy a new course,
(02:24):
please, make your plans in the next couple
of weeks because in mid September, I do
have to raise the prices. So I just
wanna throw that PSA out there. I know
a lot of people don't get to the
end of the show. That's what I wanted
to do at the beginning. So with that
said, let's jump right into this week's podcast
and learn all about Profinet.
I wanna welcome to the show,
Tom
from Profibus, Profinet
(02:45):
North America.
Tom, I really wanna just thank you for
coming on the show. I reached out to
you to ask about ask you to come
on to to talk to us about this
topic. But before we jump in,
could you, first tell the audience a little
bit about yourself?
Yeah. Sure. Absolutely, Sean.
I'm gonna jump to the next slide then
(03:05):
and
and let everyone know. As Sean said, my
name is Tom, Tom Weingartner,
and I am the technical marketing director at
PI North America.
I have a fairly broad set of experiences
ranging from ASIC hardware and software design, and
and then I've moved into things like, avionic
(03:25):
systems design.
But it seemed like no no matter what
I was working on, it it always centered
around communication and control.
That's actually how I got into industrial Ethernet,
and I branched out into, you know, from
protocols like MIL standard fifteen fifty three and
and airing four twenty nine to other serial
(03:47):
based protocols like PROFIBUS
and MODBUS.
And, of course, that naturally led to PROFINET
and the other Ethernet based protocols.
I I also spent quite a few years
developing
time sensitive networking solutions.
But now I focus specifically
on PROFINET
(04:08):
and its related technologies.
And so with that, I will
jump into the the presentation here. And and,
now that you know a little bit about
me,
let let me tell you a little bit
about our organization.
We are PROFIBUS and PROFINET International
or PI for short.
(04:29):
We are the global organization that created PROFIBUS
and PROFINET,
and we continue to maintain and promote these
open communication standards.
The organization
started back in 1989
with PROFIBUS,
followed by PROFINET in the early two thousands.
Next came IO Link, a communication technology for
(04:51):
the last meter,
and that was followed by OmLux, a communication
technology for wireless location tracking.
And now, most recently,
MTP
or module type package.
And this is a communication technology
for easier, more flexible integration of process automation
(05:13):
equipment.
Now we have grown worldwide to 24 regional
PI associations,
57 competent centers,
eight test labs,
and 31 training centers.
It's important to remember that we are a
global organization because if you're a global manufacturer,
(05:34):
chances are there's PROFINET support in the country
in which you're located,
and you can get that support in the
country's native language.
In the, lower right part of the slide
here, we are showing our technologies under the
PI umbrella.
And I really wanted to point out that
these, these technologies
all the technologies within PI umbrella are supported
(05:57):
by a set of working groups.
And these working groups are made up of
participants from member companies,
and they are the ones that actually create
and update the various standards and specifications.
Also, any of these working groups are open
to any member company.
So,
(06:17):
PI North America
is one of the 24 regional PI associations,
and we were founded
in 1994.
We are a nonprofit
member supported organization where we think globally and
act locally.
So here in North America, we are supported
by our local competence centers, training centers,
(06:39):
and test labs.
And and competence centers, provide technical support for
things like protocol,
interoperability,
and installation type questions.
Training centers provide educational services for things like
training courses and hands on lab work.
And test labs are,
(06:59):
well, just that. They are labs that provide
testing services
and device certification.
So any member company can be any combination
of these three.
You can see here if you're looking at
the slide, that the Profi interface center is
all three,
where we have JCOM Automation is both a
(07:21):
competent center and a training center. And here
in North in North America, we are pleased
to have HMS as a training center and
Phoenix Contact also as a competent center.
Now one thing I would like to point
out to everyone is that what you should
be aware of is that every PROFINET,
device must be certified.
(07:41):
So if you make a PROFINET device, you
need to go to a test lab to
get it certified.
And here in North America, you certify devices
at the PROFINETERFACE
center. So I think it's important to begin
our discussion today by talking about the impact
digital transformation has had on factory networks.
(08:05):
There has been an explosion of devices in
manufacturing
facilities, and it's not uncommon for car manufacturers
to have over 50,000
Ethernet nodes in just one of their factories.
Large production cells can have over a thousand
Ethernet nodes in them.
But the point is is that all of
these nodes increase the amount of traffic automation
(08:27):
devices must handle.
It's not unrealistic for a device to have
to deal with over 2,000 messages while it's
operating,
while it's trying to do its job.
And emerging technologies like automated guided vehicles add
a level of dynamics to the network
architecture because they're constantly
(08:47):
entering and leaving
various production cells located in different areas of
the factory.
And, of course, as these factories become more
and more flexible,
networks must support adding and removing devices
while the factory is operating.
And so in response to this digital transformation,
(09:08):
we have gone from rigid hierarchical systems using
field buses
to industrial Ethernet based networks where any device
can be connected to any other device.
This means devices at the field level can
be connected to devices at the process control
level, the production level, even even the operations
(09:29):
level and above.
But this doesn't mean that the requirements for
determinism,
redundancy,
safety, and security are any less on a
converged network.
It means you need to have a network
technology that supports these requirements,
and this is where PROFINET comes in.
(09:51):
So to understand PROFINET, I I think it's
instructive here to start with the OSI model
since the OSI model defines networking.
And, of course, PROFINET is a networking technology.
The OSI model is divided into seven layers
as I'm sure we are all familiar with
by now,
starting with the physical layer.
(10:12):
And this is where we get access to
the wire, internal electrical signals into bits.
Layer two is the data link layer, and
this is where we turn bits into bytes
that make up an Ethernet frame.
Layer three is the network layer, and this
is where we turn Ethernet frames into
IP packets.
So I like to think about Ethernet frames
(10:34):
being switched around a local area network,
and IP packets being routed around a wide
area network
like the Internet.
And so the next layer up is the
transport layer, and this is where we turn
IP packets into TCP or UDP datagrams.
These datagrams are used based on the type
(10:55):
of connection needed to route IP packets.
TCP datagrams are connection based, and UDP datagrams
are connectionless.
But, really, regardless of the type of connection,
we typically go straight up to layer seven,
the application layer.
And this is where PROFINET lives, along with
all the other Ethernet based protocols you may
(11:18):
be familiar with, like
HTTP, FTP, SNMP,
and and so on.
So then what exactly is PROFINET, and and
what challenges is it trying to overcome?
The most obvious challenge is environmental.
We need to operate in a wide range
of harsh environments,
(11:39):
and, obviously, we need to be deterministic, meaning
we need to guarantee data delivery.
But we have to do this in the
presence of IT traffic
or non real time applications like web servers.
We also can't operate in a vacuum.
We need to operate in a local area
network and support getting data to wide area
(12:00):
networks and up into the cloud.
And so to overcome these challenges, PROFINET uses
communication
channels
for speed and determinism.
It uses standard unmodified Ethernet, so multiple protocols
can coexist on the same wire.
We didn't have this with field buses. Right?
(12:21):
It was one protocol, one wire.
But most importantly, PROFINET is an OT protocol
running at the application layer so that it
can maintain
real time data exchange,
provide alarms and diagnostics to keep automation equipment
running,
and support topologies for reliable
(12:41):
communication.
So we can think of PROFINET as separating
traffic into a real time channel and a
non real time channel.
That mess messages with a particular ether type
that's actually eighty eight ninety two, and the
number doesn't matter. But the point here is
that the the the real time channel,
(13:03):
is is where all PROFINET messages with that
ether type go into.
And any other ether type, they go into
the non real time channel.
So we use the non real time channel
for acyclic data exchange,
and we use the real time channel for
cyclic data exchange.
(13:24):
So cyclic data exchange with synchronization, we we
classify this as time critical.
And without synchronization,
it is classified
as real time.
But, really, the point here is that this
is how we can use the same standard
unmodified Ethernet for PROFINET
as we can for any other IT protocol.
(13:45):
All messages living together, coexisting on the same
wire.
So we take this a step further here
and and look at the real time channel
and and the non real time channel, and
and these are combined
together into
a concept that we call an application relation.
So think of an application relation as a
(14:07):
network connection for doing both acyclic and cyclic
data exchange,
and we do this between controllers and devices.
This network connection consists of three different types
of information to be exchanged,
and we call these types of information
communication
relations.
(14:28):
So on the lower left part of the
slide, you can see here that we have
something called a a record data communication relation,
and it's essentially
the non real time channel
for acyclic data exchange to pass information like
configuration,
security, and diagnostics.
The IO data communication relation is part of
(14:51):
the real time channel
for doing this cyclic data exchange that we
need to do to periodically
update
controller and device IO data.
And finally, we have the alarm communication relation.
So this is also part of the real
time channel, because,
what we need to do here is it
it's used for alerting the controller to
(15:13):
device false as soon as they occur
or when they get resolved.
Now on the right part of the slide,
is we can see some use cases for,
application
relations, and and these use cases are are
either a single
application relations for controller to device communication,
(15:34):
and we have an optional application relation here
for doing dynamic reconfiguration.
We also use an application relation for something
we call shared device,
and, of course,
why we are here today and talking about
applications relations is actually because of system
redundancy.
And so we'll get, into these use cases
(15:56):
in more detail here in a moment.
But first, I wanted to point out that
when we talk about messages being non real
time, real time, or time critical,
what we're really doing is specifying a level
of network performance.
Non real time performance has cycle times above
one hundred milliseconds,
(16:18):
but we also use this term to indicate
that a message may have no cycle time
at all. In other words, acyclic data exchange.
Real time performance has cycle times in the
one to ten millisecond range,
but really that range can extend up to
one hundred milliseconds.
So time critical performance has cycle times less
(16:39):
than a millisecond, and it's not uncommon
to have cycle times around two hundred and
fifty microseconds
or less.
Most applications
are either real time or non real time,
while high performance applications are considered time critical.
These applications use time synchronization to guarantee data
(17:01):
arrives exactly when needed,
but we also must ensure that the network
is open to any Ethernet traffic.
So in order to achieve time critical performance
here,
and we do this for the most demanding
applications like high speed motion control.
And so what we did is we added
four features to basic PROFINET here, and and
(17:23):
we call this PROFINET ISOCRANESS
real time or PROFINET IRT.
These added features are synchronization,
node arrival time,
scheduling,
and time critical domains.
Now IRT has been around since 02/2004,
but in the future, PROFINET will move to
(17:44):
a new set of I triple e Ethernet
standards called
time sensitive networking or TSN.
PROFINET over TSN will actually have the same
functionality and performance as PROFINET
IRT,
but we'll be able to scale to faster
and faster,
networks and and as bandwidth is is increasing.
(18:07):
So this chart shows the differences between PROFINET,
RT, IRT, and TSN.
And the main difference is, obviously,
synchronization.
And these other features that,
guarantee data arrives exactly when needed.
Notice in in the under the, PROFINET IRT
column here that that, the bandwidth for PROFINET
(18:30):
IRT is a 100 mil a 100 megabits
per second.
And the bandwidth for PROFINET
RT and TSN are scalable.
Also, for those device manufacturers
out there looking to add PROFINET
IRT to their products,
there are lots of ASICs and other solutions
available in the market with IRT capability.
(18:54):
Alright. So let's take a minute here to
summarize all of this.
We have a a single infrastructure for doing
real time data exchange
along with non real time information exchange.
PROFINET uses the same infrastructure as any Ethernet
network.
Machines that speak PROFINET
(19:15):
do so,
using network connections called application relations,
and these messages coexist with all other messages
so information can pass from devices to machines,
to factories, to the cloud,
and back.
And so if you take away nothing else
from this podcast today, it is the word
coexistence.
(19:35):
PROFINET coexists with all other protocols
on the wire.
So let's
start talking a little bit here about the
main topic, system redundancy and and and why
we got into talking about PROFINET
at all. Right? I mean,
what why do we need system redundancy and
(19:56):
things like like, application
relations and dynamic reconfiguration?
Well, it's because one of the things we're
pretty proud of with PROFINET is not only
the depth of its capabilities, but also the
breadth of its capabilities.
And with the lines blurring between what's factory
automation, what's process automation, and what's motion control,
(20:18):
we are seeing all three types of automation
appearing in a single installation.
So we wanna make sure PROFINET meets requirements
across the entire range
of industrial automation.
So let's start out here by looking at
the differences between
process automation
(20:39):
versus factory automation, and then we'll get into
the details.
First off,
process signals typically change slower
on the order of hundreds of milliseconds
versus tens of milliseconds in factory automation.
And process signals often need to travel longer
distances and potentially into hazardous
or explosive areas.
(21:01):
Now with process plants operating
twenty four seven, three sixty five,
system must systems must provide
high availability
and support changes while the plant is in
production.
This is where system redundancy and dynamic reconfiguration
come in.
We'll discuss these again here in in just
(21:23):
a minute.
I just wanted to finish off this slide
with saying that an estop is usually not
possible because while you can turn off the
automation,
that's not necessarily gonna stop the chemical reaction
or whatever from proceeding.
Sensors and actuators and process automation
are also
more complex.
(21:43):
Typically, we call them field instruments.
And process plants have many, many, many more
IO,
tens of thousands of IO,
usually controlled by a DCS.
And so when we talk about system redundancy,
I actually like to call it scalable system
(22:04):
redundancy
because it isn't just one thing.
This is where we add components to the
network for increasing the level of system availability.
So there are four possibilities,
s one, s two,
and r one, r two.
The letter indicates
(22:25):
if there are single or redundant
network access points,
and the number indicates how many application relations
are supported
by each network access point.
So think of the network access point as
a physical interface to the network.
And from our earlier discussion,
think of an application relation as a network
(22:47):
connection between a controller and a device.
So you have s one has,
single network access points. Right? So each device
has single network access points
with one application relation connected to one controller.
S two is where we also have single
network access points,
(23:09):
but with two application relations now connected to
different controllers.
R one is where we have redundant network
access points, but each one of these redundant
network access points
only has one application relation,
but those are connected to different controllers.
And finally, we could kinda go over the
(23:29):
top here with r two, and and here's
where we have
redundant network access points with two
application relations
connected to different
controllers.
You know, I wanna just stop here and
talk about
s two. And for the people who are
listening, which I know is about a quarter
of you guys out there,
(23:50):
think of s two is you have a
primary controller and a secondary controller. If you're
seeing the screen, you can see I'm reading
the the slide. But you have your two
primary and secondary controllers. Right? So you have
one of each, and, primary controller has the,
application one, and secondary
has
application resource number two.
(24:11):
And each device that's connected on the Ethernet
has both the one and two.
So you went maybe you have
a rack of IO out there. It needs
to talk to both the primary controller and
the secondary controller.
And so to me, that is kinda like
your classic redundant PLC system where you have
two PLCs and you have a bunch of
IO, and each piece of IO has to
(24:33):
talk to both the primary and the secondary.
So if the primary goes down, the secondary
can take over. And so I think that's
why there's so much interest in s two
because that kinda is that that that classic
example. Now,
Tom, let me turn it back to you.
Would you say I'm right on that? Or
Spot on. I mean, I think it's great,
(24:53):
and and and really
kinda emphasizing the point that there's that one
physical
connection on the network access point, but now
we have two connections in that physical,
access point there. Right? So so
you can then have one of those connections
go to the primary controller and the other
one to the secondary controller. And in case
(25:14):
one of those controllers fails,
the device still
can get the information it needs.
So, yep, that that's how we do that.
And and,
just a little bit finer point on r
one, if you think about it,
it's s two, but now all we've done
is we've split
the physical interface. So
one of the physical interfaces
(25:36):
has has, one of the connections, and the
other physical interface has a
has the other connection.
So you really kinda have,
the same level of redundant functionality
here,
backup functionality with the secondary controller,
but here you're using,
multiple physical interfaces.
Now let me ask you about that. So
(25:57):
as I look at our one, right,
it seems like they connect to port let's
I'll just call it port one on each
device
to switch number one, which in this case
would be the green switch, and port number
two of each device to the switch number
two, which is the blue switch. Would that
be typical to have separate switches, one a
different switch for each port?
(26:18):
It it it doesn't have to. Right? I
I I think we chose to show it
like this for simplicity kinda to Oh, I
don't care. Emphasize the point that,
okay. Here's the second port going to the
secondary controller. Here's the first port going to
the primary controller. And we just wanted to
emphasize that point. Because sometimes
these these, diagrams can be,
(26:40):
a bit confusing.
And you may have an application that doesn't
require redundant switches depending on the maybe the
MTBF of the of the switch itself
or your failure mode on your IO. Okay.
I'm with you. Go ahead. Yep. Yep. Good.
Good. Good.
Alright. So, I think that's some excellent detail
on that. And so,
(27:01):
if you wouldn't mind or don't have any
other questions, let's let's move on to the
the,
the the next slide.
So
you can see in that previous slide how
system redundancy supports high availability by increasing system
availability using these network access points and application
relations.
(27:21):
But we can also support high availability by
using network redundancy.
And the way PROFINET supports network redundancy is
through the use of ring topologies,
and we call this media redundancy.
The reason we use rings is because if
a cable breaks
or the physical connection,
(27:43):
somehow breaks as well or or even a
device fails,
the network can revert back to a line
topology
keeping the system operational.
However, supporting
network redundancy with rings means we can't use
protocols typically used in IT networks like,
(28:03):
STP and RSTP.
And this is because,
STP and RSTP actually prevent
network redundancy by blocking redundant paths
in order to keep frames from circulating forever
in the network.
And so in order for PROFINET to support
rings, we need a way to prevent frames
(28:25):
from circulating forever in the network.
And to do this, we use a protocol
called the media redundancy protocol or MRP.
MRP uses
one media redundancy manager for each ring,
and the rest,
of the devices are called media redundancy clients.
(28:47):
Managers are typically controllers
or PROFINET switches,
and clients are typically the devices in the
network.
So the way it works is this.
A manager
periodically
sends test frames,
around the network here to check the integrity
of the ring.
(29:08):
If the manager doesn't get the test frame
back,
there's a failure somewhere in the ring.
And so
the manager
then notifies the clients
about
this failure,
and then the manager
sets the network to operate as a line
(29:29):
topology
until,
the failure is repaired.
Right? And so that's how we can get,
network redundancy with our media redundancy protocol.
Alright. So now you you can see how
system redundancy and media redundancy
both support high availability.
(29:50):
System redundancy does this by increasing
system availability, Walmart. Media redundancy
does this by increasing
network availability.
Obviously, you can use one without the other,
but by combining system redundancy and media redundancy,
we can increase the overall system reliability.
(30:11):
For example, here we are showing different topologies
for s one and s two, and these
are similar to the the the topologies that
were on the previous slide.
So, if you notice here that, for s
one,
we can only have
media redundancy because there isn't a secondary controller
(30:34):
to provide
system redundancy.
S two is where we combine
system redundancy
and media redundancy
by adding an MRP ring.
But I wanted to point out here that
that
even though we're showing this MRP ring as
as as a possible topology,
there really are other topologies possible. It really
(30:56):
depends on
the level of of system reliability
you're trying to achieve.
And so, likewise, on on this next slide
here, we are showing
two topologies for adding media redundancy to r
one and r two. And so for r
one, we've chosen, again, probably for simplistic,
(31:17):
simplicity's sake,
we we add an MRP ring for each
redundant network access point.
With for r two, we do the same
thing here. We also have an MRP ring
for each
redundant network access point, but we also add
a third
MRP ring for the controllers.
(31:38):
Now this is really just to try to
emphasize the point that you can,
you you can really,
come up with just about any topology
possible,
but it because it really depends on the
number of ports on each device and the
number of switches in the network and, again,
your overall system reliability
requirements.
(32:00):
So in order to
keep process plants operating twenty four seven three
sixty five,
dynamic reconfiguration
is another use case for application
relations.
And so this is where we can add
or remove devices on the fly
while the plant is in production.
(32:21):
Because if you think about it, typically,
when there is a new configuration for the
PLC,
the PLC first has to go into stop
mode.
It needs to then re receive the
configuration, and then it can go back into
run mode.
Well, this doesn't work in process automation because
we're trying to operate twenty four seven three
sixty five.
(32:42):
So with dynamic reconfiguration,
the controller continues
operating with its current application relation
while it sets up a new application relation.
Right? I mean, again, it's it's really trying
to get this
a a new
network connection established.
So then the the the controller
(33:03):
then switches over to the new application relation
after the new configuration
is
validated.
Once we have this validation and the configuration's
good,
the controller removes
the old application relations
and continues operating
all while staying in run mode.
(33:24):
Pretty handy pretty handy stuff here for for
supporting high availability.
Now one last topic regarding system redundancy and
dynamic reconfiguration,
because these two PROFINET capabilities
are compatible with a new technology called single
(33:44):
pair Ethernet,
and this provides
power and data over just two wires.
This version of Ethernet is now part of
the I triple e eight zero two dot
three standard
referred to as 10 base t one l.
So 10 base t one l is the
non intrinsically saved version of two wire Ethernet.
(34:08):
To support intrinsic safety, 10 base t one
l was enhanced
by an additional standard called Ethernet APL or
advanced
physical layer.
So when we combine
PROFINET
with this Ethernet APL version of 10 base
t one l,
we simply call it PROFINET over APL.
(34:29):
It not only provides power and data over
the same two wires,
but also supports long cable runs up to
a kilometer,
10 megabit per second communication speeds,
and can be used in all
hazardous areas.
So intrinsic safety is achieved by ensuring both
the Ethernet signals and power on the wire
(34:50):
are within explosion
safe levels.
And even with all this,
system redundancy
and dynamic reconfiguration
work seamlessly with this new technology
we call PROFINET over APL.
Now one thing I'd like to close with
here is a is a final thought regarding
(35:11):
a new technology I think I think everyone
should become aware of here. I mean, it's
emerging in the market.
It's it's quite new, and it's a technology
called
MTP or module type package.
And so this is a technology being applied
first here to,
use cases considered to be a hybrid
of both process automation and factory automation.
(35:34):
So what MTP does is it applies
OPC UA information models
to create standardized,
non proprietary
application
level descriptions
for automation equipment.
And so what these descriptions do is they
simplify the communication,
between equipment
and the control system, and it does this
(35:55):
by modularizing
the process into more manageable pieces.
So really, the point is to construct a
factory
with modular equipment to simplify integration
and allow for better flexibility
should changes be required.
Now with the help of the process orchestration
layer and this OPC UA connectivity,
(36:19):
MTP enabled equipment can
plug and operate,
reducing the time to commission a process
or make changes to that process.
This is pretty cutting edge stuff. I think
you're gonna find and hear a lot more
about NTP in the near future.
Alright. So it's time to wrap things up
(36:40):
with a summary of all the resources you
can use to learn even more about PROFINET.
One of the things you can do here
is you can get access to the PROFINET
one day training class slide deck by going
to profinet2025.com,
entering your email,
and downloading the slides in PDF
(37:00):
format.
And what's really handy is that all of
the links in the PDF
are live,
so information is just a click away.
We also have our website, us.profinet.com.
It has white papers, application stories, webinars, and
documentation,
including access to all of the standards and
(37:22):
specifications.
This is truly your one stop shop for
locating everything about PROFINET.
Now we do our PROFINET
one day training classes and IO link workshops
all over The US and parts of Canada.
So if you are interested in attending one
(37:42):
of these, you can always find the next
city we are going to by
clicking on the training links at the bottom
of the slide.
Hey, guys. Sean here. I just wanted to
jump in for a minute for the audio
audience to give you that website. It's us.profinet.com/0dtc
(38:03):
or oscardeltatangocharlie.
So that's the website.
And I also went and pulled up the
website, which if you're watching, you can see
here. But for those listening,
these one day PROFINET courses are coming to
Phoenix, Arizona, August 26,
Minneapolis, Minnesota,
September 10,
Newark and New York City, September 25,
(38:24):
Greenville, South Carolina, October 7,
Detroit, Michigan, October 23,
Portland, Oregon, November 4, and Houston, Texas, November
18. So with that said, let's jump back
into the show. Alan, one of our most
popular resources is Profinet University.
This website structures information into little courses, and
(38:44):
you can proceed through them at your own
pace.
You can go lesson by lesson, or you
can jump around.
You can even decide which course to take
based on a difficulty tag.
Definitely make sure to check out this resource.
We do have lots of great, webinars
on on the,
on on the website,
(39:05):
and they're archived on the website. Now some
of these webinars, they they rehash what we
covered today, but in other cases, they expand
on what we covered today.
But in either case, make sure you share
these webinars with your colleagues, especially if they're
interested in any one of the topics that
we have listed
on the slide.
(39:27):
And finally, the
certified network engineer course is the next logical
step if you would like to dive deeper
into the technical details of PROFINET.
It is a week long in Johnson City,
Tennessee,
and it features
hands on lab work.
And if you would like us to provide
training to eight or more students, we can
(39:48):
even come to your site.
If you would like more details about any
of this, please head to the website to
learn more.
And with that, Chai, I think that is,
my last slide and,
covered the topics that I think we wanted
some to cover today.
Yeah. And I just wanna point out that
(40:09):
to you guys, this, training goes out through
all around The US.
I definitely recommend getting up there. If you're
using PROFINET
and you wanna get some training,
they usually fill the room, like, you know,
50 to a 100 people.
And,
it's you know, they do this every year.
So check those dates out. If you need
to get some hands on with PROFINET,
(40:31):
I would definitely check out those. And, of
course, we'll have all the links in the
description.
I also wanna thank Tom for that slide.
Really
defining s one versus s two versus r
one and r two. You know, a lot
of people say we have s two compatibility.
A matter of fact, we're gonna be looking
at some products that have s two compatibility
here in the future.
(40:51):
And, you know, just trying to understand what
that means.
Right? You know, when somebody just says s
two, it's like, what does that mean? So
I really if that slide really doesn't for
you guys listening, I thought that slide really
kinda lays it out,
kinda gives you, like, alright. This is what
it means.
And,
so in in in my from my perspective,
(41:11):
that's like it's you're supporting redundant controllers. Right?
And so if you have an s two
setup of redundant,
seamless controllers
that or CPUs, then you'll be that product
will support that. And that's important. Right? Because
if you had a product that didn't support
it, it's not gonna work with your application.
So I thought that and the the Ethernet
APL is such a big deal in process
because I you know,
(41:32):
the the distance, right, and the fact that
it's it's, intrinsically
safe and
supports all those zones and and areas and
whatnot,
that is, and everybody everybody all the instrumentation
people are all over. Right?
The, the, the Rosemonts, the fishes, the, the
endless houses, everybody
is is on that working group. We've covered
(41:54):
that on the news show many times,
and,
just very interesting to see where that goes,
but I think it's gonna take over that
part of the industry.
So, but, Tom, was there anything else you
want to cover in today's show?
No. I I think that that really,
puts puts a a fine finale on on
on this here. I I do wanted to
maybe emphasize
that, you you know, that point about network
(42:16):
redundancy being compatible with,
system redundancy. So, you know, you can really
hone in on what your system reliability requirements
are.
And and also with with this this, PROFINET
over APL piece of it,
completely compatible with with PROFINET,
(42:37):
in in of itself.
And and, also,
you don't have to worry about it not
supporting,
system redundancy or or anything of of the
like, whether,
you know, you you wanted to get,
redundant
even redundant devices out there. So,
that's that's,
I think that's that's about it.
(42:58):
Alright. Well, I again, thank you so much
for coming on. We look forward to trying
out some of these s two profanet devices
in the near future. But with that, I
I really wanted to have you on first
to kinda lay the groundwork for us, and,
really appreciate it.
No problem. Thank you for having me.
Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode.
I did. I enjoyed sitting down with Tom,
(43:20):
getting up to date on all those different
products, and it's great to know they have
all these free hands on training days coming
across United States.
And, you know, what a great refresher from
the original 2020 presentation that we had somebody
from Siemens do. So I really appreciate Tom
coming on. And speaking of Siemens, so thankful
they sponsored this episode so we could release
it ad free
and make the video free to everybody. Please,
(43:41):
if you see Siemens or any of the
vendors who sponsor our episodes,
please tell them to thank you from us.
It really helps us keep the show going.
Speaking of keeping the show going,
just a reminder, if you're a student or
a vendor, price increases will hit mid September.
So if you're a student, you wanna buy
another course, now is the time to do
it. If you're a vendor and you have
a existing balance, you will want to schedule
(44:03):
those podcasts before mid September or else you'll
be subject to the price increase.
So with that said, I also wanna remind
you I have a new podcast, automation tech
talk. I'm reusing the old automation new news
headlines podcast. So if you already subscribed to
that, you're just gonna get in the new
the new show for free. It's also on
the automation blog, on YouTube, on LinkedIn. So
(44:24):
I'm doing it as a live stream every
lunchtime, just talking about what I learned, in
that last week, you know, little tidbits here
and there. And I wanna hear from you
guys too. A matter of fact, I already
had Giovanni
come on and do an interview with me.
So at one point, I'll schedule that as
a lunchtime podcast
for automation tech talk. Again, it still shows
up as automation news headlines, I think. So
at some point, I'll have to find time
(44:44):
to edit that to change the name. But
in any case, with that, I think I've
covered everything. I wanna thank you guys for
tuning in. Really appreciate you. You're the best
audience in the podcast world or the video
world, you know, whatever you wanna look at
it as, but I really appreciate you all.
Please feel free to send me emails, write
to me, leave comments. I love to hear
from you guys, and I just wanna wish
(45:05):
you all
good health and happiness. And until next time,
my friends,
peace.
Welcome back to the automation podcast. My name
is Sean Tierney from Insights and Automation, and
I wanna thank you for tuning back in
this week. Now on this show, I actually
had the opportunity to sit down with Thomas
Weingoner from PI to learn all about PROFINET.
I actually reached out to him because I
had some product vendors who wanted me to
cover their s two features
(00:21):
in their products, and I thought it would
be first it'd be better to actually sit
down and get a refresh on what s
two is. It's been five years since we've
had a PROFINET expert on, so I figured
now would be a good time before we
start getting into how those features are used
in different products.
So with that said, I also wanna mention
that Siemens has sponsored the episode, so it
(00:41):
will be completely ad free. I love it
when vendor sponsor the shows. Not only do
we get the breakeven on the show itself,
we also get to release it ad free
and make the video free as well. So
thank you, Siemens. If you see anybody from
Siemens, thank them for sponsoring the Automation Podcast.
As a matter of fact, thank any vendor
who's ever sponsored any of our shows. We
really appreciate them.
(01:02):
One final PSA that I wanna throw out
there is that,
speaking like I talked about this yesterday on
my show, Automation Tech Talk,
As we've seen with the Ethernet POCs we're
talking about, a lot of micro POCs that
were $250
ten years ago are now $400.
Right? That's a lot of inflation, right, for
various reasons. Right?
(01:22):
And so one of the things I did
this summer is I took a look at
my P and L, my pros profit and
loss statements, and I just can't hold my
prices where they are and be profitable. Right?
So if I'm not breaking even, the company
goes out of business, and we'll have no
more episodes of the show. So how does
this affect you? If you are a student
over at the automation school, you have until
(01:43):
mid September to do any upgrades
or purchase any, courses at the 2020 prices.
Alright? So I I don't wanna raise the
prices. I've tried as long as I can,
but at some point, you have to give
in to what the prices are that your
vendors are charging you, and you have to
raise the prices. So,
all my courses are buy one, sell them
forever, so this does not affect anybody who's
(02:03):
enrolled in a course. Actually, all of you
folks rolled in my PLC courses, I see
it updates every week now. So and those
who get the ultimate bundles, you're seeing new
lessons added to the new courses because you
get that preorder access plus some additional stuff.
So in any case but, again, I wanna
reiterate,
if you're a vendor who has an old
balance or if you are a student who
wants to buy a new course,
(02:24):
please, make your plans in the next couple
of weeks because in mid September, I do
have to raise the prices. So I just
wanna throw that PSA out there. I know
a lot of people don't get to the
end of the show. That's what I wanted
to do at the beginning. So with that
said, let's jump right into this week's podcast
and learn all about Profinet.
I wanna welcome to the show,
Tom
from Profibus, Profinet
(02:45):
North America.
Tom, I really wanna just thank you for
coming on the show. I reached out to
you to ask about ask you to come
on to to talk to us about this
topic. But before we jump in,
could you, first tell the audience a little
bit about yourself?
Yeah. Sure. Absolutely, Sean.
I'm gonna jump to the next slide then
(03:05):
and
and let everyone know. As Sean said, my
name is Tom, Tom Weingartner,
and I am the technical marketing director at
PI North America.
I have a fairly broad set of experiences
ranging from ASIC hardware and software design, and
and then I've moved into things like, avionic
(03:25):
systems design.
But it seemed like no no matter what
I was working on, it it always centered
around communication and control.
That's actually how I got into industrial Ethernet,
and I branched out into, you know, from
protocols like MIL standard fifteen fifty three and
and airing four twenty nine to other serial
(03:47):
based protocols like PROFIBUS
and MODBUS.
And, of course, that naturally led to PROFINET
and the other Ethernet based protocols.
I I also spent quite a few years
developing
time sensitive networking solutions.
But now I focus specifically
on PROFINET
(04:08):
and its related technologies.
And so with that, I will
jump into the the presentation here. And and,
now that you know a little bit about
me,
let let me tell you a little bit
about our organization.
We are PROFIBUS and PROFINET International
or PI for short.
(04:29):
We are the global organization that created PROFIBUS
and PROFINET,
and we continue to maintain and promote these
open communication standards.
The organization
started back in 1989
with PROFIBUS,
followed by PROFINET in the early two thousands.
Next came IO Link, a communication technology for
(04:51):
the last meter,
and that was followed by OmLux, a communication
technology for wireless location tracking.
And now, most recently,
MTP
or module type package.
And this is a communication technology
for easier, more flexible integration of process automation
(05:13):
equipment.
Now we have grown worldwide to 24 regional
PI associations,
57 competent centers,
eight test labs,
and 31 training centers.
It's important to remember that we are a
global organization because if you're a global manufacturer,
(05:34):
chances are there's PROFINET support in the country
in which you're located,
and you can get that support in the
country's native language.
In the, lower right part of the slide
here, we are showing our technologies under the
PI umbrella.
And I really wanted to point out that
these, these technologies
all the technologies within PI umbrella are supported
(05:57):
by a set of working groups.
And these working groups are made up of
participants from member companies,
and they are the ones that actually create
and update the various standards and specifications.
Also, any of these working groups are open
to any member company.
So,
(06:17):
PI North America
is one of the 24 regional PI associations,
and we were founded
in 1994.
We are a nonprofit
member supported organization where we think globally and
act locally.
So here in North America, we are supported
by our local competence centers, training centers,
(06:39):
and test labs.
And and competence centers, provide technical support for
things like protocol,
interoperability,
and installation type questions.
Training centers provide educational services for things like
training courses and hands on lab work.
And test labs are,
(06:59):
well, just that. They are labs that provide
testing services
and device certification.
So any member company can be any combination
of these three.
You can see here if you're looking at
the slide, that the Profi interface center is
all three,
where we have JCOM Automation is both a
(07:21):
competent center and a training center. And here
in North in North America, we are pleased
to have HMS as a training center and
Phoenix Contact also as a competent center.
Now one thing I would like to point
out to everyone is that what you should
be aware of is that every PROFINET,
device must be certified.
(07:41):
So if you make a PROFINET device, you
need to go to a test lab to
get it certified.
And here in North America, you certify devices
at the PROFINETERFACE
center. So I think it's important to begin
our discussion today by talking about the impact
digital transformation has had on factory networks.
(08:05):
There has been an explosion of devices in
manufacturing
facilities, and it's not uncommon for car manufacturers
to have over 50,000
Ethernet nodes in just one of their factories.
Large production cells can have over a thousand
Ethernet nodes in them.
But the point is is that all of
these nodes increase the amount of traffic automation
(08:27):
devices must handle.
It's not unrealistic for a device to have
to deal with over 2,000 messages while it's
operating,
while it's trying to do its job.
And emerging technologies like automated guided vehicles add
a level of dynamics to the network
architecture because they're constantly
(08:47):
entering and leaving
various production cells located in different areas of
the factory.
And, of course, as these factories become more
and more flexible,
networks must support adding and removing devices
while the factory is operating.
And so in response to this digital transformation,
(09:08):
we have gone from rigid hierarchical systems using
field buses
to industrial Ethernet based networks where any device
can be connected to any other device.
This means devices at the field level can
be connected to devices at the process control
level, the production level, even even the operations
(09:29):
level and above.
But this doesn't mean that the requirements for
determinism,
redundancy,
safety, and security are any less on a
converged network.
It means you need to have a network
technology that supports these requirements,
and this is where PROFINET comes in.
(09:51):
So to understand PROFINET, I I think it's
instructive here to start with the OSI model
since the OSI model defines networking.
And, of course, PROFINET is a networking technology.
The OSI model is divided into seven layers
as I'm sure we are all familiar with
by now,
starting with the physical layer.
(10:12):
And this is where we get access to
the wire, internal electrical signals into bits.
Layer two is the data link layer, and
this is where we turn bits into bytes
that make up an Ethernet frame.
Layer three is the network layer, and this
is where we turn Ethernet frames into
IP packets.
So I like to think about Ethernet frames
(10:34):
being switched around a local area network,
and IP packets being routed around a wide
area network
like the Internet.
And so the next layer up is the
transport layer, and this is where we turn
IP packets into TCP or UDP datagrams.
These datagrams are used based on the type
(10:55):
of connection needed to route IP packets.
TCP datagrams are connection based, and UDP datagrams
are connectionless.
But, really, regardless of the type of connection,
we typically go straight up to layer seven,
the application layer.
And this is where PROFINET lives, along with
all the other Ethernet based protocols you may
(11:18):
be familiar with, like
HTTP, FTP, SNMP,
and and so on.
So then what exactly is PROFINET, and and
what challenges is it trying to overcome?
The most obvious challenge is environmental.
We need to operate in a wide range
of harsh environments,
(11:39):
and, obviously, we need to be deterministic, meaning
we need to guarantee data delivery.
But we have to do this in the
presence of IT traffic
or non real time applications like web servers.
We also can't operate in a vacuum.
We need to operate in a local area
network and support getting data to wide area
(12:00):
networks and up into the cloud.
And so to overcome these challenges, PROFINET uses
communication
channels
for speed and determinism.
It uses standard unmodified Ethernet, so multiple protocols
can coexist on the same wire.
We didn't have this with field buses. Right?
(12:21):
It was one protocol, one wire.
But most importantly, PROFINET is an OT protocol
running at the application layer so that it
can maintain
real time data exchange,
provide alarms and diagnostics to keep automation equipment
running,
and support topologies for reliable
(12:41):
communication.
So we can think of PROFINET as separating
traffic into a real time channel and a
non real time channel.
That mess messages with a particular ether type
that's actually eighty eight ninety two, and the
number doesn't matter. But the point here is
that the the the real time channel,
(13:03):
is is where all PROFINET messages with that
ether type go into.
And any other ether type, they go into
the non real time channel.
So we use the non real time channel
for acyclic data exchange,
and we use the real time channel for
cyclic data exchange.
(13:24):
So cyclic data exchange with synchronization, we we
classify this as time critical.
And without synchronization,
it is classified
as real time.
But, really, the point here is that this
is how we can use the same standard
unmodified Ethernet for PROFINET
as we can for any other IT protocol.
(13:45):
All messages living together, coexisting on the same
wire.
So we take this a step further here
and and look at the real time channel
and and the non real time channel, and
and these are combined
together into
a concept that we call an application relation.
So think of an application relation as a
(14:07):
network connection for doing both acyclic and cyclic
data exchange,
and we do this between controllers and devices.
This network connection consists of three different types
of information to be exchanged,
and we call these types of information
communication
relations.
(14:28):
So on the lower left part of the
slide, you can see here that we have
something called a a record data communication relation,
and it's essentially
the non real time channel
for acyclic data exchange to pass information like
configuration,
security, and diagnostics.
The IO data communication relation is part of
(14:51):
the real time channel
for doing this cyclic data exchange that we
need to do to periodically
update
controller and device IO data.
And finally, we have the alarm communication relation.
So this is also part of the real
time channel, because,
what we need to do here is it
it's used for alerting the controller to
(15:13):
device false as soon as they occur
or when they get resolved.
Now on the right part of the slide,
is we can see some use cases for,
application
relations, and and these use cases are are
either a single
application relations for controller to device communication,
(15:34):
and we have an optional application relation here
for doing dynamic reconfiguration.
We also use an application relation for something
we call shared device,
and, of course,
why we are here today and talking about
applications relations is actually because of system
redundancy.
And so we'll get, into these use cases
(15:56):
in more detail here in a moment.
But first, I wanted to point out that
when we talk about messages being non real
time, real time, or time critical,
what we're really doing is specifying a level
of network performance.
Non real time performance has cycle times above
one hundred milliseconds,
(16:18):
but we also use this term to indicate
that a message may have no cycle time
at all. In other words, acyclic data exchange.
Real time performance has cycle times in the
one to ten millisecond range,
but really that range can extend up to
one hundred milliseconds.
So time critical performance has cycle times less
(16:39):
than a millisecond, and it's not uncommon
to have cycle times around two hundred and
fifty microseconds
or less.
Most applications
are either real time or non real time,
while high performance applications are considered time critical.
These applications use time synchronization to guarantee data
(17:01):
arrives exactly when needed,
but we also must ensure that the network
is open to any Ethernet traffic.
So in order to achieve time critical performance
here,
and we do this for the most demanding
applications like high speed motion control.
And so what we did is we added
four features to basic PROFINET here, and and
(17:23):
we call this PROFINET ISOCRANESS
real time or PROFINET IRT.
These added features are synchronization,
node arrival time,
scheduling,
and time critical domains.
Now IRT has been around since 02/2004,
but in the future, PROFINET will move to
(17:44):
a new set of I triple e Ethernet
standards called
time sensitive networking or TSN.
PROFINET over TSN will actually have the same
functionality and performance as PROFINET
IRT,
but we'll be able to scale to faster
and faster,
networks and and as bandwidth is is increasing.
(18:07):
So this chart shows the differences between PROFINET,
RT, IRT, and TSN.
And the main difference is, obviously,
synchronization.
And these other features that,
guarantee data arrives exactly when needed.
Notice in in the under the, PROFINET IRT
column here that that, the bandwidth for PROFINET
(18:30):
IRT is a 100 mil a 100 megabits
per second.
And the bandwidth for PROFINET
RT and TSN are scalable.
Also, for those device manufacturers
out there looking to add PROFINET
IRT to their products,
there are lots of ASICs and other solutions
available in the market with IRT capability.
(18:54):
Alright. So let's take a minute here to
summarize all of this.
We have a a single infrastructure for doing
real time data exchange
along with non real time information exchange.
PROFINET uses the same infrastructure as any Ethernet
network.
Machines that speak PROFINET
(19:15):
do so,
using network connections called application relations,
and these messages coexist with all other messages
so information can pass from devices to machines,
to factories, to the cloud,
and back.
And so if you take away nothing else
from this podcast today, it is the word
coexistence.
(19:35):
PROFINET coexists with all other protocols
on the wire.
So let's
start talking a little bit here about the
main topic, system redundancy and and and why
we got into talking about PROFINET
at all. Right? I mean,
what why do we need system redundancy and
(19:56):
things like like, application
relations and dynamic reconfiguration?
Well, it's because one of the things we're
pretty proud of with PROFINET is not only
the depth of its capabilities, but also the
breadth of its capabilities.
And with the lines blurring between what's factory
automation, what's process automation, and what's motion control,
(20:18):
we are seeing all three types of automation
appearing in a single installation.
So we wanna make sure PROFINET meets requirements
across the entire range
of industrial automation.
So let's start out here by looking at
the differences between
process automation
(20:39):
versus factory automation, and then we'll get into
the details.
First off,
process signals typically change slower
on the order of hundreds of milliseconds
versus tens of milliseconds in factory automation.
And process signals often need to travel longer
distances and potentially into hazardous
or explosive areas.
(21:01):
Now with process plants operating
twenty four seven, three sixty five,
system must systems must provide
high availability
and support changes while the plant is in
production.
This is where system redundancy and dynamic reconfiguration
come in.
We'll discuss these again here in in just
(21:23):
a minute.
I just wanted to finish off this slide
with saying that an estop is usually not
possible because while you can turn off the
automation,
that's not necessarily gonna stop the chemical reaction
or whatever from proceeding.
Sensors and actuators and process automation
are also
more complex.
(21:43):
Typically, we call them field instruments.
And process plants have many, many, many more
IO,
tens of thousands of IO,
usually controlled by a DCS.
And so when we talk about system redundancy,
I actually like to call it scalable system
(22:04):
redundancy
because it isn't just one thing.
This is where we add components to the
network for increasing the level of system availability.
So there are four possibilities,
s one, s two,
and r one, r two.
The letter indicates
(22:25):
if there are single or redundant
network access points,
and the number indicates how many application relations
are supported
by each network access point.
So think of the network access point as
a physical interface to the network.
And from our earlier discussion,
think of an application relation as a network
(22:47):
connection between a controller and a device.
So you have s one has,
single network access points. Right? So each device
has single network access points
with one application relation connected to one controller.
S two is where we also have single
network access points,
(23:09):
but with two application relations now connected to
different controllers.
R one is where we have redundant network
access points, but each one of these redundant
network access points
only has one application relation,
but those are connected to different controllers.
And finally, we could kinda go over the
(23:29):
top here with r two, and and here's
where we have
redundant network access points with two
application relations
connected to different
controllers.
You know, I wanna just stop here and
talk about
s two. And for the people who are
listening, which I know is about a quarter
of you guys out there,
(23:50):
think of s two is you have a
primary controller and a secondary controller. If you're
seeing the screen, you can see I'm reading
the the slide. But you have your two
primary and secondary controllers. Right? So you have
one of each, and, primary controller has the,
application one, and secondary
has
application resource number two.
(24:11):
And each device that's connected on the Ethernet
has both the one and two.
So you went maybe you have
a rack of IO out there. It needs
to talk to both the primary controller and
the secondary controller.
And so to me, that is kinda like
your classic redundant PLC system where you have
two PLCs and you have a bunch of
IO, and each piece of IO has to
(24:33):
talk to both the primary and the secondary.
So if the primary goes down, the secondary
can take over. And so I think that's
why there's so much interest in s two
because that kinda is that that that classic
example. Now,
Tom, let me turn it back to you.
Would you say I'm right on that? Or
Spot on. I mean, I think it's great,
(24:53):
and and and really
kinda emphasizing the point that there's that one
physical
connection on the network access point, but now
we have two connections in that physical,
access point there. Right? So so
you can then have one of those connections
go to the primary controller and the other
one to the secondary controller. And in case
(25:14):
one of those controllers fails,
the device still
can get the information it needs.
So, yep, that that's how we do that.
And and,
just a little bit finer point on r
one, if you think about it,
it's s two, but now all we've done
is we've split
the physical interface. So
one of the physical interfaces
(25:36):
has has, one of the connections, and the
other physical interface has a
has the other connection.
So you really kinda have,
the same level of redundant functionality
here,
backup functionality with the secondary controller,
but here you're using,
multiple physical interfaces.
Now let me ask you about that. So
(25:57):
as I look at our one, right,
it seems like they connect to port let's
I'll just call it port one on each
device
to switch number one, which in this case
would be the green switch, and port number
two of each device to the switch number
two, which is the blue switch. Would that
be typical to have separate switches, one a
different switch for each port?
(26:18):
It it it doesn't have to. Right? I
I I think we chose to show it
like this for simplicity kinda to Oh, I
don't care. Emphasize the point that,
okay. Here's the second port going to the
secondary controller. Here's the first port going to
the primary controller. And we just wanted to
emphasize that point. Because sometimes
these these, diagrams can be,
(26:40):
a bit confusing.
And you may have an application that doesn't
require redundant switches depending on the maybe the
MTBF of the of the switch itself
or your failure mode on your IO. Okay.
I'm with you. Go ahead. Yep. Yep. Good.
Good. Good.
Alright. So, I think that's some excellent detail
on that. And so,
(27:01):
if you wouldn't mind or don't have any
other questions, let's let's move on to the
the,
the the next slide.
So
you can see in that previous slide how
system redundancy supports high availability by increasing system
availability using these network access points and application
relations.
(27:21):
But we can also support high availability by
using network redundancy.
And the way PROFINET supports network redundancy is
through the use of ring topologies,
and we call this media redundancy.
The reason we use rings is because if
a cable breaks
or the physical connection,
(27:43):
somehow breaks as well or or even a
device fails,
the network can revert back to a line
topology
keeping the system operational.
However, supporting
network redundancy with rings means we can't use
protocols typically used in IT networks like,
(28:03):
STP and RSTP.
And this is because,
STP and RSTP actually prevent
network redundancy by blocking redundant paths
in order to keep frames from circulating forever
in the network.
And so in order for PROFINET to support
rings, we need a way to prevent frames
(28:25):
from circulating forever in the network.
And to do this, we use a protocol
called the media redundancy protocol or MRP.
MRP uses
one media redundancy manager for each ring,
and the rest,
of the devices are called media redundancy clients.
(28:47):
Managers are typically controllers
or PROFINET switches,
and clients are typically the devices in the
network.
So the way it works is this.
A manager
periodically
sends test frames,
around the network here to check the integrity
of the ring.
(29:08):
If the manager doesn't get the test frame
back,
there's a failure somewhere in the ring.
And so
the manager
then notifies the clients
about
this failure,
and then the manager
sets the network to operate as a line
(29:29):
topology
until,
the failure is repaired.
Right? And so that's how we can get,
network redundancy with our media redundancy protocol.
Alright. So now you you can see how
system redundancy and media redundancy
both support high availability.
(29:50):
System redundancy does this by increasing
system availability, Walmart. Media redundancy
does this by increasing
network availability.
Obviously, you can use one without the other,
but by combining system redundancy and media redundancy,
we can increase the overall system reliability.
(30:11):
For example, here we are showing different topologies
for s one and s two, and these
are similar to the the the topologies that
were on the previous slide.
So, if you notice here that, for s
one,
we can only have
media redundancy because there isn't a secondary controller
(30:34):
to provide
system redundancy.
S two is where we combine
system redundancy
and media redundancy
by adding an MRP ring.
But I wanted to point out here that
that
even though we're showing this MRP ring as
as as a possible topology,
there really are other topologies possible. It really
(30:56):
depends on
the level of of system reliability
you're trying to achieve.
And so, likewise, on on this next slide
here, we are showing
two topologies for adding media redundancy to r
one and r two. And so for r
one, we've chosen, again, probably for simplistic,
(31:17):
simplicity's sake,
we we add an MRP ring for each
redundant network access point.
With for r two, we do the same
thing here. We also have an MRP ring
for each
redundant network access point, but we also add
a third
MRP ring for the controllers.
(31:38):
Now this is really just to try to
emphasize the point that you can,
you you can really,
come up with just about any topology
possible,
but it because it really depends on the
number of ports on each device and the
number of switches in the network and, again,
your overall system reliability
requirements.
(32:00):
So in order to
keep process plants operating twenty four seven three
sixty five,
dynamic reconfiguration
is another use case for application
relations.
And so this is where we can add
or remove devices on the fly
while the plant is in production.
(32:21):
Because if you think about it, typically,
when there is a new configuration for the
PLC,
the PLC first has to go into stop
mode.
It needs to then re receive the
configuration, and then it can go back into
run mode.
Well, this doesn't work in process automation because
we're trying to operate twenty four seven three
sixty five.
(32:42):
So with dynamic reconfiguration,
the controller continues
operating with its current application relation
while it sets up a new application relation.
Right? I mean, again, it's it's really trying
to get this
a a new
network connection established.
So then the the the controller
(33:03):
then switches over to the new application relation
after the new configuration
is
validated.
Once we have this validation and the configuration's
good,
the controller removes
the old application relations
and continues operating
all while staying in run mode.
(33:24):
Pretty handy pretty handy stuff here for for
supporting high availability.
Now one last topic regarding system redundancy and
dynamic reconfiguration,
because these two PROFINET capabilities
are compatible with a new technology called single
(33:44):
pair Ethernet,
and this provides
power and data over just two wires.
This version of Ethernet is now part of
the I triple e eight zero two dot
three standard
referred to as 10 base t one l.
So 10 base t one l is the
non intrinsically saved version of two wire Ethernet.
(34:08):
To support intrinsic safety, 10 base t one
l was enhanced
by an additional standard called Ethernet APL or
advanced
physical layer.
So when we combine
PROFINET
with this Ethernet APL version of 10 base
t one l,
we simply call it PROFINET over APL.
(34:29):
It not only provides power and data over
the same two wires,
but also supports long cable runs up to
a kilometer,
10 megabit per second communication speeds,
and can be used in all
hazardous areas.
So intrinsic safety is achieved by ensuring both
the Ethernet signals and power on the wire
(34:50):
are within explosion
safe levels.
And even with all this,
system redundancy
and dynamic reconfiguration
work seamlessly with this new technology
we call PROFINET over APL.
Now one thing I'd like to close with
here is a is a final thought regarding
(35:11):
a new technology I think I think everyone
should become aware of here. I mean, it's
emerging in the market.
It's it's quite new, and it's a technology
called
MTP or module type package.
And so this is a technology being applied
first here to,
use cases considered to be a hybrid
of both process automation and factory automation.
(35:34):
So what MTP does is it applies
OPC UA information models
to create standardized,
non proprietary
application
level descriptions
for automation equipment.
And so what these descriptions do is they
simplify the communication,
between equipment
and the control system, and it does this
(35:55):
by modularizing
the process into more manageable pieces.
So really, the point is to construct a
factory
with modular equipment to simplify integration
and allow for better flexibility
should changes be required.
Now with the help of the process orchestration
layer and this OPC UA connectivity,
(36:19):
MTP enabled equipment can
plug and operate,
reducing the time to commission a process
or make changes to that process.
This is pretty cutting edge stuff. I think
you're gonna find and hear a lot more
about NTP in the near future.
Alright. So it's time to wrap things up
(36:40):
with a summary of all the resources you
can use to learn even more about PROFINET.
One of the things you can do here
is you can get access to the PROFINET
one day training class slide deck by going
to profinet2025.com,
entering your email,
and downloading the slides in PDF
(37:00):
format.
And what's really handy is that all of
the links in the PDF
are live,
so information is just a click away.
We also have our website, us.profinet.com.
It has white papers, application stories, webinars, and
documentation,
including access to all of the standards and
(37:22):
specifications.
This is truly your one stop shop for
locating everything about PROFINET.
Now we do our PROFINET
one day training classes and IO link workshops
all over The US and parts of Canada.
So if you are interested in attending one
(37:42):
of these, you can always find the next
city we are going to by
clicking on the training links at the bottom
of the slide.
Hey, guys. Sean here. I just wanted to
jump in for a minute for the audio
audience to give you that website. It's us.profinet.com/0dtc
(38:03):
or oscardeltatangocharlie.
So that's the website.
And I also went and pulled up the
website, which if you're watching, you can see
here. But for those listening,
these one day PROFINET courses are coming to
Phoenix, Arizona, August 26,
Minneapolis, Minnesota,
September 10,
Newark and New York City, September 25,
(38:24):
Greenville, South Carolina, October 7,
Detroit, Michigan, October 23,
Portland, Oregon, November 4, and Houston, Texas, November
18. So with that said, let's jump back
into the show. Alan, one of our most
popular resources is Profinet University.
This website structures information into little courses, and
(38:44):
you can proceed through them at your own
pace.
You can go lesson by lesson, or you
can jump around.
You can even decide which course to take
based on a difficulty tag.
Definitely make sure to check out this resource.
We do have lots of great, webinars
on on the,
on on the website,
(39:05):
and they're archived on the website. Now some
of these webinars, they they rehash what we
covered today, but in other cases, they expand
on what we covered today.
But in either case, make sure you share
these webinars with your colleagues, especially if they're
interested in any one of the topics that
we have listed
on the slide.
(39:27):
And finally, the
certified network engineer course is the next logical
step if you would like to dive deeper
into the technical details of PROFINET.
It is a week long in Johnson City,
Tennessee,
and it features
hands on lab work.
And if you would like us to provide
training to eight or more students, we can
(39:48):
even come to your site.
If you would like more details about any
of this, please head to the website to
learn more.
And with that, Chai, I think that is,
my last slide and,
covered the topics that I think we wanted
some to cover today.
Yeah. And I just wanna point out that
(40:09):
to you guys, this, training goes out through
all around The US.
I definitely recommend getting up there. If you're
using PROFINET
and you wanna get some training,
they usually fill the room, like, you know,
50 to a 100 people.
And,
it's you know, they do this every year.
So check those dates out. If you need
to get some hands on with PROFINET,
(40:31):
I would definitely check out those. And, of
course, we'll have all the links in the
description.
I also wanna thank Tom for that slide.
Really
defining s one versus s two versus r
one and r two. You know, a lot
of people say we have s two compatibility.
A matter of fact, we're gonna be looking
at some products that have s two compatibility
here in the future.
(40:51):
And, you know, just trying to understand what
that means.
Right? You know, when somebody just says s
two, it's like, what does that mean? So
I really if that slide really doesn't for
you guys listening, I thought that slide really
kinda lays it out,
kinda gives you, like, alright. This is what
it means.
And,
so in in in my from my perspective,
(41:11):
that's like it's you're supporting redundant controllers. Right?
And so if you have an s two
setup of redundant,
seamless controllers
that or CPUs, then you'll be that product
will support that. And that's important. Right? Because
if you had a product that didn't support
it, it's not gonna work with your application.
So I thought that and the the Ethernet
APL is such a big deal in process
because I you know,
(41:32):
the the distance, right, and the fact that
it's it's, intrinsically
safe and
supports all those zones and and areas and
whatnot,
that is, and everybody everybody all the instrumentation
people are all over. Right?
The, the, the Rosemonts, the fishes, the, the
endless houses, everybody
is is on that working group. We've covered
(41:54):
that on the news show many times,
and,
just very interesting to see where that goes,
but I think it's gonna take over that
part of the industry.
So, but, Tom, was there anything else you
want to cover in today's show?
No. I I think that that really,
puts puts a a fine finale on on
on this here. I I do wanted to
maybe emphasize
that, you you know, that point about network
(42:16):
redundancy being compatible with,
system redundancy. So, you know, you can really
hone in on what your system reliability requirements
are.
And and also with with this this, PROFINET
over APL piece of it,
completely compatible with with PROFINET,
(42:37):
in in of itself.
And and, also,
you don't have to worry about it not
supporting,
system redundancy or or anything of of the
like, whether,
you know, you you wanted to get,
redundant
even redundant devices out there. So,
that's that's,
I think that's that's about it.
(42:58):
Alright. Well, I again, thank you so much
for coming on. We look forward to trying
out some of these s two profanet devices
in the near future. But with that, I
I really wanted to have you on first
to kinda lay the groundwork for us, and,
really appreciate it.
No problem. Thank you for having me.
Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode.
I did. I enjoyed sitting down with Tom,
(43:20):
getting up to date on all those different
products, and it's great to know they have
all these free hands on training days coming
across United States.
And, you know, what a great refresher from
the original 2020 presentation that we had somebody
from Siemens do. So I really appreciate Tom
coming on. And speaking of Siemens, so thankful
they sponsored this episode so we could release
it ad free
and make the video free to everybody. Please,
(43:41):
if you see Siemens or any of the
vendors who sponsor our episodes,
please tell them to thank you from us.
It really helps us keep the show going.
Speaking of keeping the show going,
just a reminder, if you're a student or
a vendor, price increases will hit mid September.
So if you're a student, you wanna buy
another course, now is the time to do
it. If you're a vendor and you have
a existing balance, you will want to schedule
(44:03):
those podcasts before mid September or else you'll
be subject to the price increase.
So with that said, I also wanna remind
you I have a new podcast, automation tech
talk. I'm reusing the old automation new news
headlines podcast. So if you already subscribed to
that, you're just gonna get in the new
the new show for free. It's also on
the automation blog, on YouTube, on LinkedIn. So
(44:24):
I'm doing it as a live stream every
lunchtime, just talking about what I learned, in
that last week, you know, little tidbits here
and there. And I wanna hear from you
guys too. A matter of fact, I already
had Giovanni
come on and do an interview with me.
So at one point, I'll schedule that as
a lunchtime podcast
for automation tech talk. Again, it still shows
up as automation news headlines, I think. So
at some point, I'll have to find time
(44:44):
to edit that to change the name. But
in any case, with that, I think I've
covered everything. I wanna thank you guys for
tuning in. Really appreciate you. You're the best
audience in the podcast world or the video
world, you know, whatever you wanna look at
it as, but I really appreciate you all.
Please feel free to send me emails, write
to me, leave comments. I love to hear
from you guys, and I just wanna wish
(45:05):
you all
good health and happiness. And until next time,
my friends,
peace.
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