November 21, 2023 • 54 mins
Have you ever found yourself tangled in the web of emotional baggage or addiction? Today, we are joined by a beacon of hope, Mark DeJesus. With his personal tales of transformation and healing, Mark, a former pastor, author, and now a podcaster, is on a mission to help those caught in similar struggles. We journey through his poignant experiences of leaving the confines of a church model that prioritized performance over grace and love. His deep-seated insights about promoting healing, stepping back, and creating room for grace are bound to touch your heart.
Building authentic communities within the church is a recurring theme in our enlightening conversation with Mark. He divulges his discovery of a different, more wholesome approach to ministering and connecting with people. This approach has united him with a supportive community of believers, enriching his understanding of what it means to live life to the fullest as believers. Hear about the significance of humility and transformation in Mark's life, how it led to a deeper understanding of his brokenness and became a stepping stone to breaking down family dysfunction.
Finally, we delve into the heart of teaching, healing, and humility with Mark. His journey from his thirties to his fifties is a testament to the power of humility in dismantling familial dysfunction and unhealthy thought patterns. Mark warmly invites everyone to connect with him through his books, website, and podcast. His inspiring shift from the pressure of performance to a mindset of kindness and compassion is a lesson in itself. If you're seeking to break free from the shackles of performance metrics or merely want to learn to be kinder and more patient towards yourself, this episode is a must-listen.
Connect with Mark
Website: markdejesus.com
YouTube: youtube.com/marktdejesus
Thanks for listening in!
Follow the host, Mary
Social Media: @maryjohess
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone.
Thanks for joining me foranother episode of the Back 40
Podcast.
I'm your host, mary Hess.
Today's guest wears many hats.
Mark DeHesus is joining me andhe is a former pastor, he's a
podcaster, he's an authorseveral books.
(00:22):
He has a thriving onlinepresence where he spends time
mentoring, training, equipping,counseling people who have
walked through hurt, who haveemotional baggage, who have
addictions that they needhealing from.
He takes time to share on hiswebsite through lives that he
(00:47):
does on YouTube and Rumble, andhelping people become healthier
versions of themselves.
That's what we're going tospend some time talking about
today.
Stay tuned.
Mark DeHesus is up next.
Thanks for joining me everyone.
(01:11):
I'm glad to have you foranother episode of the Back 40
Podcast.
Like I said in my intro, I havethe infamous Mark DeHesus with
me.
Mark, always a pleasure to chatwith you.
Thanks so much for joining metoday.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh, it's awesome to be here, mary.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation and what comes out
of it, so I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Absolutely so I'll just have you start by giving us
a little bit of background infowho's Mark and what's he do,
and what's life look like foryou these days.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, for about 30 years I've been involved in some
type of ministry role.
If we get into kind of what I do, I pastored at a large church
for about 12 years on staff andthen later on did some teaching
work.
I also pastored a small churchfor about six years and then
really moved into more and moreof what I'm doing now, which is
(02:05):
full-time teaching, writing,doing one-on-one work with
people and writing books andpodcasting and YouTube and all
that basically helping believersto experience greater healing
and freedom.
I love to dive into mental,emotional, relationship, health
stuff like that, and a big partof it comes out of my own
journey and recognizing thethings I needed to work through
(02:28):
and heal through.
But most of all, I'm a husbandto an amazing wife who also
works with me on in the ministryand also in our podcast,
melissa, and love my two kids,maximus, who's 15, going on at
16, and Abigail, who's 12 andgoing to be 13.
So we're in the midst ofteenage years and all that that
(02:51):
brings and I love being a dad, ahusband, I love being a son of
God and I'm enjoying what I'mable to pour out into people's
lives and I'm glad to be heretoo.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, I'm glad to have you on the show today, hey
Melissa, because you know hey,Melissa, shout out.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You hear somewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
She's there.
Yeah, she's here somewhere.
I thought for just a moment.
I thought I should have saidsomething to her in text this
morning before recording andbeen like, hey, pop your head in
for a minute if you want Right.
Okay, so let's talk for thisjust for a minute, about this,
how, how you said earlier thatyou got into what you're doing
now A lot of what you're doingnow simply from your journey.
(03:37):
I know a little bit about yourstory.
You don't have to go into thewhole story but what did prompt
you?
Was it?
Was it a specific moment?
Was it a culmination of things?
What did prompt you to go?
You know what?
There are so many believers inthe world today who don't know
that they can live more free andhealthier and in a better mood
(03:58):
than what they currently do.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, I was working on staff at a church and I'd
been a youth pastor for a numberof years, was moving up into
then being like an associateoverseeing worship, and we did
church productions and all thesethings that churches growing in
numbers and all these greatthings as far as metrics were
happening.
But I was crumbling inside, Iwas anxiety was increasing.
(04:24):
I was dealing with a lot ofobsessiveness, a lot of pressure
, depression, up and down,anxiety that wasn't budging and
I would cope for as long as Icould.
When you're in your 20s you cankind of still live out of that
I'm invincible kind of mentality.
(04:44):
You know that you can kind ofjust keep going with the thought
process and the ways that yousurvive off of.
But it was in my late 20s that Ireally I need some help.
There's stuff going on here,there's stuff happening.
This, this, this ain't right,this is, this isn't healthy.
So I began to open myself up tostart to get help and healing
(05:10):
in a variety of ways.
It started off in gettingcounseling.
I went and received innerhealing help and deliverance
help.
There was a lot of differentpathways that had their pros and
their cons, but basically itwas out of that Like I was
getting to the point where Icouldn't get through the day.
I wasn't functioning, mythoughts were were taking me out
.
So, as I began to startexperiencing healing and
(05:34):
breakthrough, I would share justa little bit of my story with
people around me.
And like crazy, everyone'sgoing.
Yeah, I battled that too.
I have anxiety too.
I have depression.
This is like it just startedcoming out of the woodwork and I
realized like, yeah, most ofthe church is battling this
stuff, like, if not everybody,but the difference between each
(06:00):
person was who was hiding itbetter, and so I.
So, being a pastor, that was abig step too of saying, hey, I
got these struggles in thesebattles, but it was very
inviting for other people tothen, secondly, many were coming
forward and going.
I struggled with that too.
I should thank you, thank you.
I thought I thought I was a badChristian.
(06:20):
I thought I was.
You know, I thought I was crazy.
I thought, thank you, it's goodto know somebody battles it and
they're working through it.
And it was out of that.
I said I want to go in a wholenew direction.
I got I can't.
I couldn't do church the sameway anymore.
I couldn't stay within thecurrent matrix of kind of just
(06:44):
in that, that mode that we, manyof us, can relate to, like I
want to go help people.
I didn't have a clear map as toexactly what it would look like
, but I said I want to go teachpeople, help people, whatever it
looks like.
So I actually left a very stablepastoral position on staff at a
very, you know growing churchwith a large staff and resources
(07:08):
and stepped out into theunknown.
I said you just kind of startedover and so I want to just help
people.
We need healing in our hearts,we need renewal.
We're playing a lot of games,we're all deeply struggling, but
there's so much shame overhaving a struggle and so so it
was out of that that then led meinto a lot of heart healing
(07:29):
work, but also figuring out whatis it, what does it look like
as far as how God's using me inthis area?
Because when you talk aboutheart healing or mental health,
there's kind of these certainlittle boxes people put you in,
and it's understandable.
But I had to learn, like, whatis it that I'm passionate about?
What is it that I'm wanting todo and help people.
So that led me to this day nowin my late forties still going
(07:54):
about helping people in that way, but learning what does it look
like for me to flow out of howGod's wired me in helping people
.
So that's kind of the quicksnapshot to that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, no, that's great.
That's great, and I think aboutthat myself in the sense of
whenever I was younger and wasgoing to go to college for the
first time.
I have always had this passionin me too.
I wanted to be a counselor, butI wanted to be one in the
denomination that we were in,because the penicostal
(08:27):
denomination we were in I alwayssaw all these people,
specifically in ministry, whenthey would burn out or make a
misstep, fall, whatever you wantto call it.
We didn't have a way to restorethem or help them stay on the
path, maybe not still doing thesame things, but at least stay
(08:48):
viable and stay active andhealthy.
We would just kick them out.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I used to say, when all students just kick them out?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Just kick them out.
We didn't know what to do.
It's the same thing with peoplewhen they have hard questions.
We don't always do a great jobof knowing how to navigate that.
I have always had this passionthat I wanted to find a way that
that would happen inside thechurch.
How can we find ways to makethat happen?
That's always been inside of me.
(09:19):
I love how creative that you'vebeen with finding your niche
and finding how it works andstill changing things and
re-upping them and taking thingsaway and moving them around in
order to reach people, becausewe have just not done a great
job of that.
While the trend has gottenbetter to do that, we are still
(09:43):
lagging behind in many areas ofthat.
I just really want to see thebody catch up to what that looks
like.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, I think there's an aspect of recognizing that
the church carries a lot ofbrokenness, that we become
professional at hiding it andmasking it.
I found you mentioned pastorsor church leaders having a
certain falling out or whateverthat's going on in their life.
(10:14):
I don't think we ever took timeto step back and go look at the
system of what we've created.
As far as the institutionalmodel of how we do church, is it
adding to the pressure andadding to a lot of things that
fuel broken patterns?
We come into ministry.
There's still broken areas ofour lives.
(10:36):
God uses us anyways, but it'show we do life as a church,
actually inflaming those brokenareas.
For example, I realize for me Ican't keep going on the healing
journey I've discovered whilestill in this church model of
constant performance mode, likego, go, go, do, do, do, with the
(11:00):
very little margin.
It's like every week, everySunday, every Saturday,
wednesday night, thursday night,this it's constant.
And then there's metrics,there's achievement metrics and
it's like, oh, we had morenumbers this week.
God is good, he's moving.
It's like, is that really thesoul metrics we're serving?
So I realized if I want to behealthy, I had to unplug from it
(11:24):
and kind of carve, a whole new.
What does it look like to servepeople but still have a rhythm
where I'm flowing out of ahealthier heart, versus chronic
burnout which I lived in?
Burnout every week.
Every week was burnout.
Every week was just like tryingto get by.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense.
Yeah, I think, for likewhenever I was younger as well,
in just watching.
And then, of course, Iexperienced it when I got a
divorce.
My practice husband and I wereboth simultaneously
excommunicated because no oneknew how to balance anything,
(12:10):
and so it was a big deal for mebecause of the fact that I was
27, 28 years old, had been doingthis my whole life, had been
devoted my whole life, and so itadds layers, right?
It's not just the initial issueof, oh, I'm walking through a
hard time in a divorce, but noweveryone, everything I've known
(12:32):
is gone, and so now I havechurch hurt, and now I have my
normal brokenness from my familyline, my generational, all the
things which just creates thisperfect storm.
And I just recognized prettyearly on, toward the end of
walking out of my divorce andbefore I met Shannon, that we
(12:54):
just our systems, were just notgreat, and even trying to change
the system from within can bequite a hard thing to do when
everyone has been used to thesystem as it was.
I had no idea we were goinghere today, mark.
This is a great topic.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Well, it's like there's so many directions we
could go, because when there'sjust a simple thing of a pastor
moving on from a church, right,there's so many things of I've
seen where it's like there'slike shut down in communication.
They don't, you don't speak tothem anymore.
There's like your gangs, yeah,yeah, right, like your gangs,
(13:36):
like you're not here anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You're not in here.
Yo, you don't get.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And if I, if I sit down and break down the
motivations and reasons, it'slike, okay, I get it, but we've,
we've lost the relationalcomponent, Like when somebody's
marriage breaks down, that oughtto be, you know, we're, we're.
Grace and love come in, evenmore so because that's such a
(14:01):
vulnerable experience to gothrough.
And I think it goes back towe're more focused on how things
look.
So so somebody, for example,gets a divorce, it's like it's
it's a ministerial PR campaignto kind of go, okay, how can we,
you know, how do?
we say this you got to move onright and it's not.
It doesn't become okay.
(14:23):
We got to A, we got to help, wegot to step back to and look,
okay, were there things alongthe way we missed?
And let's, let's all have a.
Just a sober.
You know, understanding ofwhat's happening here.
So so when I watch, it kind ofgoes into like when I watch on
(14:44):
TV or in the news, somebody hasa you know, I don't know pastors
.
They find out he's an alcoholic.
I go, yeah, I'd be an alcoholictoo if I had to run that giant
church the way they run it.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
We're just quick to go oh, my goodness, that's
terrible and we don't get to.
Hey, what's going on that ledin the trail of this?
How can we be more sober in ourlives of, of, of, of creating
culture in a way that doesn't?
No, listen, we all have to dobusiness with our own choices
and our own brokenness.
How can we live in a way wherewe're actually increasing health
(15:22):
in the people around us?
Right, like people are gettingmore and more healthier?
Right, there's this tension,though, that we have in America,
especially in in achievementculture.
We sacrifice that on the altarof God's doing a work and we're
growing and we're getting big.
You got to get on board, so weuse a lot of these, we use a lot
of terminology that's more likeyou know what Google and
(15:45):
YouTube and Facebook would use,and like you're getting on brand
and getting on mission andgetting out like let's go, go,
go, and it's like no, workingwith people is messy, it doesn't
work in a machine and itdoesn't drive through.
It's messy, it's painful, it's,at times, inconvenient, it's
hard.
Grace, grace, rolls up itsleaves when people are are
(16:07):
broken, but in our, a lot of ourstructures, we don't have time
to deal with your mess.
So does be right.
Right, we got to service, wegot to think right and I
understand, but where's thespace for life?
Where's the space to sit downand and and do life together and
and be connected together andrealize we're going through
(16:27):
stuff and that takes it takesmore margin than we're allowing.
So, yeah, it caused me to go.
How do I want to carve my life?
Where A I'm making room forwhat I need in my journey, my
family needs, and and and paceout how I can, because you can
easily get in this kind of workand fry yourself out trying to
change the world, right?
(16:49):
So there's, there's a lot Ithink that we can learn and
adjust to and how we, how weeven look at brokenness.
There's a lot of learning thatneeds to be done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I was just thinking about the fact that you
know you.
It's hard for people to grasp,I think, what it looks like to
actually that phrase do lifetogether it's.
I say this all the time, but Ithink a lot of times we've done
ourselves a huge disservice andwe're almost probably more
(17:23):
dangerous than helpful when weget just a slight taste of
something and or the terminologyfor it because it's the hippest
, coolest, on trendiest way tosay things.
Now, you know, you're my people, we're a family, we're a tribe.
I'm working on my heart.
(17:43):
You know blah, blah and peoplewill use all of the phrase ology
.
But to really do that, to reallyaccomplish that, that requires
some major intentionality oneveryone's parts to dig in to
Each other's lives and not in anosy kind of way, just in a
(18:04):
realistic.
Hey, I'm not just seeing you onSunday morning, I'm not just
Checking on you because I wantto make sure you're not doing
some kind of great sin and Ican't let you up on my stage.
You know, just whatever thosethings are, but it's super messy
and it's super frustrating andcan also be absolutely rewarding
(18:26):
at the same time.
But but it's.
It requires a commitment and anintentionality that I don't
know that.
I Think that, especially sinceCOVID, we've had a hard time
digging back into, because we'veLearned that we can do things
like this right, like I can sithere and chat with you over zoom
, and there's nothing wrong withthat.
But if I'm not beingintentional in the way I'm
(18:47):
talking to you, if I'm notinteracting with people, then
then I don't have to show up todo those things, and and so I
find that it's been really hardto kind of break back into that
mold, especially Coming fromeverybody's being isolated, and
now we don't have to be anymore,you know.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I thought COVID was gonna be a great opportunity for
the church to reboot.
I Thought you know what thethings got shut down for a while
right.
I thought, you know, this be agreat, great opportunity to Shed
off a lot of excess stuff,things that don't matter, things
(19:26):
that kind of got in the way,and get back to the fundamentals
.
And instead we just got betterat live streaming, I know, you
know, and we just kind of wekind of doubled down on the
stage rather than Doing more ofthis, even if it has to be
remote, even if it has to, where, where, you know, we just kind
(19:49):
of kept that mode.
We just want that, we want to,we want to sit in an audience,
have somebody on stage tell ussomething or give us a good
experience, and then we, weconnect that as well.
I've been to church now, I'mconnected, or whatever.
Whatever the phrase Yalogy isright.
Yeah, here's the thing Idiscovered.
That's very startling for me.
(20:09):
It's a very sober Awareness.
I worked at a larger church.
When I say larger church, it'slike New England larger, which
was like 1500, which is reallybig, and in Connecticut, you
know, down south is like youknow, but there's one there,
there's one there, yeah, anyways, right, but a large pastoral
staff, so forth.
And I also pastured in a smallchurch setting.
(20:30):
I think at the top it wouldmaybe 80 people Okay.
So I've had both settings right.
Then I've done like kind of theteaching route, you know, kind
of going to different churches,teaching, doing that kind of
work and stuff too.
I find in what I do now, whichis weekly podcasting, but I do a
lot of one-on-one and then I doI have a online community.
(20:54):
I'm part I Pastor and shepherdpeople more now Then I ever did
in any of those other roles Withmy official pastor title person
.
Well, that's startling.
I was back then many in,especially in the, the first
church.
I was just more putting eventstogether or Like I didn't know
(21:19):
what people were going.
I mean, people could have beenHaving, you know, suicidal
thoughts, depression, could havebeen losing their marriage.
I wouldn't even know.
I wouldn't even know it waslike hey, I need you to show up
to run the live board, hey, Ineed you.
That that's about it.
It was startling to me that Irealized why I didn't really
know any of these people.
I, I, we were so busy doing wewere never Actually connecting.
(21:43):
Yeah, and and when I say dolife, I don't mean like I'm all
up in your business and I know,you know, you know like, like,
but there's a, there's a senseof, of I'm learning to, to be
encouraged and sharpened andstrengthened and and built up
when I'm around, like if I'minteracting with Mary, I To meet
(22:04):
to me.
This is kind of how I defineBelievers life together when.
I'm around, when I'm around you,I walk away and I'm I'm better.
Yeah, absolutely right, likeyeah, I don't like to.
I don't like to use the wordsharpening, because sometimes
people take that as, like youknow, did you read your Bible
today?
Did you kind of like that kindof thing?
And it's like no, I want, whenI'm around somebody, that
(22:29):
there's just that, there's theseasoning of my life, enhances
the flavor of their life.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah.
I agree with that.
I think that's that's a very,very good definition of that.
You, you're learning from oneanother, you're encouraging one
another, you're edifying,exhorting one another.
It's and that can look avariety of ways depending on
where you are, what you're doingin life, and you know, but
(22:59):
there is, it's just it goes backto that intentionality.
There is just an intentionalitythat that comes from doing that
, where Just showing up andinteracting with one another on
a Sunday morning or a Wednesdaynight or a Thursday night, you
won't get.
Because we've been, we werepreaching about this even on
Sunday.
We went to church for yearswith people and we didn't know
them.
You know, we would go to lunchtogether, we'd go out to eat,
(23:21):
but everything was just kept atthis very surface level and you
just, I can remember walkingaway so many times going.
I'll never be that kind ofChristian.
I, if they knew what was reallygoing on inside of me, they
probably would kick me outbecause how are they doing this,
how are they doing this and notstruggling and not having
(23:42):
questions?
And Something must be wrongwith me because clearly, clearly
, they're not experiencing that,or surely they would tell me.
But you know, the atmospherewasn't there Right to have any
kind of reciprocal.
Hey, are you, you know?
Are you struggling with?
Are you like you said?
Once you opened the door, youwere shocked at the number of
(24:05):
people that came rushing forwardand was like let me in.
Yes, yes, this is me a thousandtimes over.
How are you fixing it?
What do we need to do?
Help, so that's.
That's been a real outpner forus since when we started going
to New Day in Charleston, thechurch we were going to.
We had never experiencedanything like an Atmosphere like
(24:27):
that, where inner healing wascelebrated, like they cheered
you on while you were dyinginside.
Oh, my gosh, that's so good,you know, and you'd be like you
know, so I.
What was a, what was ameaningful?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
What was a meaningful reference or experience for you
where Interacting, whether itwas somebody in ministry or
somebody just in church life?
Where did you find anexperience where you're like oh,
this is what I long for.
Do you have like Something thatyou're like this?
We need more of this, yeah,yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Um, yeah, so Probably early on, when we were, when we
were first attending thischurch plant, you know, in
Charleston New Day, I hadstarted Leading worship and,
where I came from, if you hadany issues or problems or things
didn't go well, they would justsit you down.
That's what they did.
They would say you know what,why don't you you know he was, I
(25:28):
don't know, you may be notpraying enough or something why
don't you sit down and take abreak?
And of course it was punishment.
It wasn't in the hopes that youwould get better, it was just
to remind you that that they,you know, that's just how it's
gonna be.
So we were at this church and wehad been there probably
Probably a year and was gettingto know people, but I was pretty
standoffish because I didn'ttrust People's motives.
(25:51):
Because of what we came from.
I had never seen a workingmodel that was healthy, and so I
just thought everything was alittle too Fake.
That can't be real, thatsomeone really cares about me
like that.
And I had when I would get insituations where I didn't know
how I felt about the atmosphereof what was being discussed or
(26:13):
talked about.
I'm a very talkative person.
I'm a very extroverted personin most settings, but when I'm
uncomfortable I become veryintroverted and I withdraw down
to keep from saying somethingthat I might have to apologize
for later.
So I thought I was doing thisreally cool thing of Showing my
wisdom by being quiet, but Ididn't realize that the way I
(26:35):
got quiet sucked the life out ofthe room.
You know what I mean.
It was more about, like,everything that got quiet still
said the thing that I was tryingnot to say with my vocal chords
.
Right, I was still very much.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You could, you may, you may throw in their a bless
your heart.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So my pastor, she, she, she said to me one day hey,
let's go for a coffee.
And I thought we were literallygoing for a coffee.
And so we met at a coffee shopand and she said, she said to me
hey, listen, um, you know, Ijust want to talk to you about
something that I've observed.
And I was like okay, and shesaid I've observed several times
(27:23):
when you're in a situation thatyou're not either comfortable
with or you're not happy about,or you disagree with, you
withdraw into yourself.
And I'm like, okay, I didn'teven know, I did it.
Honestly, I had never hadanybody pointed out to me and I
said, okay, until she named thespecific times and I could
remember what she was talkingabout.
(27:44):
And I was like, oh, yeah, I did.
And she said why did you dothat?
And I said I did it because Ididn't agree.
But I didn't know what to sayor if it was okay not to agree.
So I just shut, I just kind ofgot quiet because I thought
there's, I don't want to saysomething wrong and get punished
for it, and so I thought it wasbetter to say nothing.
(28:05):
And she goes.
Well, you know, she said Idon't know if you realize this
or not, but but you haveinfluence.
People pay attention, you're aninfluencer and I had never had
anybody tell me that before.
I'm 37 years old and I've neverhad anybody tell me that.
And I'm like, okay.
She said so people watch youand you affect atmospheres.
(28:27):
When you walk into a room, ifyou're being gregarious,
everybody's laughing and talking.
If you get quiet and shut downbecause you're upset, it
literally she used the phrasesucks the oxygen out of the room
.
And I went I am so sorry.
Well, I start crying because Ithink here it comes, she's gonna
sit me down because I've done abad thing, and.
And so I said I'm so sorry, howdo I fix it?
(28:51):
And and she said well, let's,let's figure out why you're
doing that.
Let's talk about that.
How about we get together nextweek and we'll talk about the
wise and we'll just see if maybeyou can remember the first time
you've ever done that and we'lljust.
She started really just kind ofdigging in and I'm sitting there
crying and I said okay.
I said, well, I Mean what doyou want me to?
Do you want me to not leadworship?
(29:12):
I mean I'll sit down.
That that's fine.
I mean, I don't have to be upon stage.
I realize that this is bad andand I've done a bad thing.
So I and she looked at me soincredulous and said Mary, what
are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
And I mean, I said, what do youmean?
And she goes you're, you're notin trouble, this is not who you
(29:32):
are.
We're gonna fix it, we're gonnawork on it.
I'm here to help you do that,but you need to pay attention to
it and try not to do it.
Think about what you're doing.
This is something that's justbeing brought to your attention,
and I'm sitting there and all Ican think is is I have never
had someone correct me and helpme, and still, I still felt like
(29:56):
they loved me and they were inmy corner, and so that was the
moment I went.
There is a way you can do thisthat changes people's lives, and
I mean, at that moment, shecould have told me a thousand
things I did wrong, and I wouldwant to change them, because I
knew that Somebody wanted me to,for the right reasons.
Mm-hmm, make sense.
(30:18):
Yeah, that was.
That was not thought.
That's when I thought how can Ido this?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, it's interesting because where, where
the story went, she, she movedfrom initially a Relationship
based on correction when itcould have just repeated the
typical pattern, right.
That's one of the things that'sfrustrating in church.
Our relationships are,especially leadership.
(30:46):
It's based on correction.
It's kind of like, okay,everybody, just do your thing.
But when we meet it's gonna becorrection.
Like if the average pastorcalled somebody said, hey, could
I, could I have a talk with you, can I cough?
It's immediately like I'm goingto the principal's office.
What did I do?
Here we go, I'm getting kickedout, I'm getting confronted
right.
A lot of times, it's true, alot of times it's like, yep,
you're gonna be, and and there's, there's no relational band
(31:11):
with being built because Icorrections, built out a
relationship right, and builtout of like, leading in the flow
.
So, anyways, so there's athere's, there's a point where
that could have Really reallygone, that that pattern, but in
the midst of it you made adecision of this can be more
invest I, I more care, I'm moreone like and and this isn't just
(31:33):
about whether or not you'regonna fill a position or not, I
really want to be a help to you.
Yeah and I think, um, in thechurch we approach a lot of
relationship out of what do youbring as far as service or
contribution here, because wegot a, we got a, we got a thing
we're doing that we need you tocontribute to, and, and so then
either you're doing that oryou're not, and then, if you
(31:55):
move in to another position,instead of the relationship
being, um, knowing and beingknown, and Now there's bonding
taking place, right, right, andit's like, no matter what
happens, I want to, I just wantto be a blessing to you.
Um, it's a struggle and itcreates this pattern where, um,
(32:16):
people are petrified overinteracting even with authority
figures, because, yeah it's ofour experience, we're so this,
this is, this is terrifying.
And then we wonder why we'reafraid of god and we avoid god,
and we, you know, his holiness,is like Uh, something to,
something to be scared of.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, no, it's, that's so true.
I, um, I think that that thatactually lit this thing inside
of me that switched it from um,you know that, um, when I mean
because you do like, when youhave the gift of discernment or
you are Apostolic in any kind ofway where you see systems that
(32:57):
are broken that you want to Fix,you know, like I'm all about
systems how can we make this runsmoother?
What is the ways that we canmake this more efficient?
How, what are we doing wronghere?
Because this doesn't seem to beworking.
But it switched something in mefrom that.
Okay, I see all the wrongthings and we need to fix those
to.
(33:17):
Oh, the, the, the Joy and theI'm going to use the word
satisfaction, but it's not quitethe word I'm looking for of
seeing people grab a hold ofsomething and run with it when
it comes to inner healing andworking on their heart, issues
Like that catalyst being justthat catalyst that causes them
(33:38):
to flip and go.
Oh.
So this is a good thing.
This is, this is something thatcauses me to grow and in the
process, the relationship isBonded in a way that that I
don't.
I don't know it's.
It's very different.
I find that when you walk withsomeone through things like that
(34:01):
, it changes the way you look atrelationship in general and the
way you value relationship ingeneral, and I value that
interaction and I think, fromthat point forward, anytime I
mean I had to practice it.
I'm not perfect at it, butanytime in leadership that I've
ever had to have hardconversations, I've always tried
(34:23):
to approach them from a this isnot who you are.
Here's what I wanna do to helpyou in the process of walking
through this.
But this is just a blip in thejourney.
This is not a definition of whoyou are, and to watch people
grab that and change is verymuch a.
(34:44):
That's training and equipping.
To me, that is making disciplesand growing people in maturity
in the kingdom of God, becausewe have a lot of really immature
believers and it's becausethey've never had a fair shot at
someone helping them mature andgrow, and a lot of that happens
(35:04):
in relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I had to.
I found in when I was in likeinstitutional, official,
pastoral capacities, I if that'sa thing I found that I had to
deal with compulsiveconfrontation and compulsive
like we gotta talk about thisissue.
Part of it was my own strugglewith compulsive, where I had
(35:30):
always had this sense of likepressure that I gotta fix things
in me and other people.
But I also saw it modeled a lottoo, a lot of like the sit
downs.
You know, you see somethinggoing on, you go after it,
immediately, confront it anddeal with it.
And I found that as I began tolet that compulsive behavior get
(35:52):
addressed, where I delay thatyou know what I mean Like I'm
not just gonna jump on this, I'mgonna, I notice it.
You know I talk a lot about OCDand mental health and stuff
like that.
But there is this thing whereas Christians we compulsively
correct people, we compulsivelyjump on things and we don't look
to build relationship first.
And then I found when I wouldwithhold not withhold but delay
(36:14):
that sense of like I gotta talkabout this I'd go, god, you know
what you see it.
You see what's going on.
I would see the Holy Spirit doso much more work.
It's not that I was avoidingthe issue, it was.
I let love and grace surroundit because it puts in
perspective.
For example, I in the church thesecond church, the one that I
(36:35):
had pastored there were manypeople that were.
You know other pastors weresending people to our church.
Hey, you know, that guy doesthis stuff.
Go there, like, okay, thanks alot.
But there's all kinds.
I deal with all kinds of battlesand stuff that people were
dealing with, from mental healthbattles to deep trauma, pains,
(36:56):
and you know, everybody hastheir goofiness, you know.
And when I would sit down withsomeone and process for a bit
their story, it's like you'dstand back and you go, I get it,
yep, I get it.
Then you go to church on Sundayand somebody's like, hey, you
know so-and-so and they'd becomplaining about whatever their
(37:19):
quirk is of that person.
And I'd be like, if you onlyknew Right, if you only knew
Right and I'm not saying itexcuses, you know irresponsible
behavior, but it really doeswhen you get a lens of
compassionate grace and you geta taste of somebody's journey.
That's why I'm a big believer inpeople, people, the why, why
(37:43):
people do things you knowthey're just doing just because,
just a thought just dropped onthem.
There's just history, there'spatterns, there's, and when you
recognize that, it gives you alot more patience for people.
But I realized, in myfast-paced world, not only did I
not even know what you werestruggling with, I had no time
for it, and I found that God hashad me in this journey of
(38:05):
slowing down more and more andmore to not only, you know,
smell the roses, but actuallysee that there's roses there.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Right, exactly, yeah, no, that's good.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, it's like it's easy to throw stones.
It's easy to, like you know,just tear people down.
It's easy to just write a quicksentence of what people
struggle with.
There's stuff going on thatwhen you get even a picture of
it and I would tell some ofthese people in church, if you
only knew what they've beenthrough, Right, you know, if you
only knew the pain and strugglethat they've had, that you'd
(38:40):
actually go while they're amiracle, they're as far as they
are.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Oh yeah.
Yeah so it changes yourperspective.
Definitely.
I think it gives you grace toactually walk with somebody
versus trying to pull them alongwith the expectation that you
can fix it, you know, by simplycorrecting a behavior or a
(39:03):
thought pattern or whatever.
It's a process, it's a journey.
It takes time and I think Godis way more concerned and
interested in our journey thanhe is how quickly we can get
from point A to point B, youknow.
I think we have to change ourmindsets to that.
So, on that note, let's talk forjust a minute about how we can,
(39:27):
how we can, in the second halfof life, live full and well and
legacy-wise, like what we can dofor people around us, because I
, you know, I hear this a lot ofpeople who haven't started
experiencing any kind of freedomin their lives and they're in
(39:49):
their 50s, they're in their 40s,they're in their 60s, 70s,
whatever.
Well, this is just how I am.
I've been this way for 40 years, bless God, or, you know, it's
too late, it's just I got a lotof baggage.
This is I've already been doingthis.
You know what would be thepoint at this point?
That kind of thing.
What do you find in yourteaching and in interacting with
(40:11):
people the way you do throughyour website and through all of
the podcasts and everything.
What are you finding?
What could you offer?
Just give us some insight onthat.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Well, I'll start with myself.
I became passionate about hearthealing in my late 20s but I
still had no idea the brokennessthat I was dealing with.
I thought I did, but I didn't.
So when I turned 30, I was likeJesus His ministry started when
he was 30.
I'm just I'm getting, I'mgetting going, it's gonna happen
.
And really it wasn't until my40s and I had children and I
(40:47):
really started to have veryeffective, fruitful awareness of
things in big ways.
And you have to understand,like all of my 30s, that's all I
did was help people teach oninter healing, do sessions with
people, write books.
That's all I did, right, and itwas still probably a good.
(41:08):
13 years later, I remembercrossing into the 40s and there
is a different awareness that Ibegan to have.
I slowed down more.
I started to see my history inrenewed ways.
So we see older years as adisadvantage, but it's often in
those years now you're enteringinto the age your parents were,
(41:33):
when they were goofy in theirparenting, right, and now I
start to go.
Okay, I still don't think thatwas the best way to go about
life, but I get it more.
I get what you were goingthrough more.
So I feel that as I entered, Ifeel that now my the bracket of
40 to 50 that I'm in now hasbeen for me.
(41:55):
There's been another notch,another level, and I think that
going into the bracket of 50 to60 will have even more of that.
I have a lot of people write tome.
As far as those that take in mymaterials, you know, I'm in my
fifties, my sixties, in myseventies and I don't know.
I feel like it's too late.
There's too much damage thathas been done.
(42:19):
One of the things that I findthat's a game changer, no matter
what age you're in, is thepower of honest humility.
Humility has a very powerfulfamily dynamic that people don't
understand.
I'll sit down with somebody whohas like just a lot of family
dysfunction.
They come from right.
(42:40):
Parents are old.
How old's your parents?
I don't know, maybe they're 60,70 years old, right, I said how
meaningful.
What would it do for you if yourdad sat the family down and
said I need to talk to everybody?
I'm going to tell you I've donesome damage.
(43:00):
My parenting wasn't healthy andI wasn't a father I needed to
be.
I didn't get what I needed todo and you know what?
I didn't pursue it and I seehow it affected you, I see how
it affected your journey and itwasn't right, it wasn't God.
I'm sorry and I'm healing.
(43:23):
I've decided to take some steps.
I got to work on myself and Iknow you need to see it.
So I'm not going to make talkcheap.
I know you need to see it, butI got some work to do and I'm
not going to force anything orforce any agenda on any of you.
I got to work on myself and Isay, what would that do?
(43:45):
And most people would say, well, after I got done, balling my
eyes out for about an hour likeugly crying yeah, we do a lot.
So I think that you can.
Yes, there's, there's a, there's, there's a collection of debris
(44:05):
that collects, you know, moreand more over the years.
Sure, it's more that, it's morethat patterns getting grained,
but we think they're moreingrained than others and it's
like you know, in 30 days youcan create a habit.
In 30 days you can move a newhabit.
From a technical standpoint, Iknow it's not easy, but but I
(44:26):
think a the power of humilitycan break down a lot of
strongholds and break down a lotof patterns.
True humility, not just well,I'm sorry I made you feel that
way.
That's not humility, you know,that's what you know, that's
that's, that's the, that's theopposite effect.
But but true, like I've got towork on myself and I'm, talk is
cheap, I just, I just want tolet you know and I'm deeply,
(44:49):
deeply sorry.
Now we position ourselves forgenerational healing in profound
ways, because we're notdefensive.
Humility lowers the defenses ofour survival.
You know well, I was.
I was a single mother and Ionly knew what I already did.
Okay, we get it.
We get it.
It's not about the reasons whyit's stuff happened.
(45:10):
And humility goes, man, I'msorry I wasn't, I wasn't in that
place.
That that so I.
So I think humility is huge,but but also recognizing thought
patterns.
Any thought pattern in yourlife can shift and change,
provided your teachable.
It's going to take relearningand it's going to take practice.
So I think you know, humble andteachable are the, are the
(45:37):
secrets that.
That's what has helped me at anystage in my life, because it's
usually the broken areas of mylife are not only hurting my
journey, but they're alsostubborn.
They don't want to quit.
That stuff doesn't want to justleave.
It wants to stay intact.
It's familiar, it's toxic, it's, it's unhealthy, you know, but
(46:01):
it's.
It wants to stay there, itwants to keep its influence.
So there's a stubbornness to it.
But when, when I humble myselfand go, all right, I want to
learn, I want to grow, I try tocommunicate that to my kids.
That Sure, no, the way I wentabout it, that way, max, that
that wasn't right.
(46:21):
I'm sorry, I apologize, yeah,because because the previous
generation struggled with that,with the sense of I was wrong,
I'm sorry.
You know, there was this likeyou got to keep the veneer that
you're the parent, you're theauthority figure, and we got to
keep that untouchable.
So mistakes, violence, you knowinappropriate things, showing
(46:46):
one thing in church and showinga different thing at home wasn't
acknowledged.
That hey, we get that.
That was confusing for you andyou know so I think.
I think the humility andteachability is is dynamite
kingdom power at any stage and Ithink the older you get, the
more you can have a biggerpicture view of how stuff
(47:09):
affected you.
I find as I get older I startto become more, as the years go
on, more and more aware.
Oh man, when that happened whenI was 12, I get it, my goodness
, and I also go.
I get why my parents wereexhausted all the time.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Right, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Right, I can see those moments where they went.
Yeah, I'm not going to bothertalking about it.
You know right.
Yes, I get, I made a differentdecision.
You know that I want toactually dive into some of these
areas with my kids, but I getit, and now I become less
judgmental and it frees me up toheal more.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
So so good, mark, so good.
I love that.
Well, we could do this forever,and we've almost done it for an
hour now, so apparently we haveno problem talking.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
That's true.
That's very, very true.
Yeah, now, this is great.
You can go in a lot ofdifferent directions.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Absolutely, I'll have to have you back on and we'll
go some different ones, becausethere's just so much to talk
about when it comes to thesecond half of life and how we,
how we do this.
But I cannot end this podcastwithout asking you the question
that I ask everyone, and that isif you could go back to your 20
(48:29):
something year old self withall of the wisdom, knowledge and
experience that you have rightnow, what would you say to Mark?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Here's the problem the young 20 something wouldn't
listen to me.
Yeah, but if some part of thismiracle equation means it's a
miracle, mark's going toactually listen and take this in
, because he's in survival mode.
(48:59):
He's invincible.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
He's invincible.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Correct Christian survival mode.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
You know, I had the mindset of yeah, I'm good, I'm
good, right, I'm good.
You know, you good, I'm good,we're all good, it's fine, it's
just cute, just keep moving on.
I would say, I would say, well,this gets into a big part of my
journey.
I would tell him you live undera lot of pressure in your
(49:29):
thoughts, within your emotions,within your life, and you don't
have to live to that.
You're going to need to learnwhat it means to be loved by
your father in heaven, becauseyou're struggling in connecting
to that and you're going to haveto learn how to be kind,
patient and more compassionateto yourself.
It's going to be a big theme.
It's going to be really, reallyimportant, because a lot of
(49:52):
stuff that you are pressuringyourself over it's hindering you
more than it is helping you.
But again, I would have to bewilling to listen to that and
try to pay attention.
I need you.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, little whippersnapper.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
I mean, I have to take my cheeks and go.
I need you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Look at me, grab him right under the chin, oh my.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
God Holy, please listen to me right now.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
I'm trying to save you some heartache and you won't
listen.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Yes, yeah, and I would.
I would also tell him if I waslistening.
When I look back at my journey,I felt this call to help people
, to to be in ministry, and myonly options that I thought was
either I was going to be amissionary, you know, and be,
you know, barefoot and poor thatwas just kind of my mindset.
(50:44):
Be a pastor, or maybe atraveling evangelist Right,
those are my only three optionsthat I thought of and it's taken
me well since then, you know,30 years to walk this journey of
it doesn't have to look likethat, right.
How has God wired me?
And let me step into that, evenif I have to, you know, pioneer
(51:09):
it.
I had to do a lot of pioneering.
That was very, very difficultand I'm still on that journey,
but I would have liked to haveseen more permission, for I had
a lot of creative avenues and alot of things that maybe I would
have gone outside of just achurch mold and but that
wouldn't be seen as ministry.
Yeah, it is you know, I'm right,I am in God Sure and so,
(51:30):
anyways, I could probably see afew more things.
Can we have some dinner?
I need to.
We only have a long talk.
No, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Well, tell everyone how they can get ahold of you.
Some of your books give us alittle synopsis.
I'll have all of this in theshow notes as well, but do a
little selfless plug for you,yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, markdahesuscom.
M-a-r-k-d-e.
If you can spell Jesus, justput a D-E in front of it.
M-a-r-k-d-e-j-e-s-u-scom.
They can get a free ebook onexperiencing God's love.
As your father, I do a lot ofwork on mental health topics.
I have a topic section you cango to and I have hundreds and
(52:09):
hundreds of broadcasts that aretopic related.
They can search and go throughthose.
But a lot of heart healingstuff, relationship stuff, and
we do a Sunday night live, mywife and I.
I dress a topic, we dressquestions and then throughout
the week I post videos and it'savailable in podcasting on
YouTube Rumble stuff like that.
(52:30):
But you can check it all thereat the website.
And my latest book is on theOCD healing journey, which maybe
, if we get together anothertime, I can spend some time
talking about that.
Yes, we will definitely do that.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
I got that book.
I really enjoyed that book.
It was great I love on yourwebsite.
I was going back through it awhile ago before we hopped on to
record this and I was like, oh,that's right, I forgot he had
that page with all those topicsyou can literally click on.
This is brilliant.
I love it.
It's just so succinct and easyto access and full of really,
(53:04):
really, really, really goodstuff.
So thank you so much for forpioneering in the kingdom and
being willing to step outside ofthe traditional roles of what
ministry looks like.
The body is better off becauseyou are doing this and super
excited to have this as aresource and just you're such a
(53:26):
gift to the kingdom mark and I'mreally glad that our paths have
crossed and you're just you andMelissa.
We just love you guys are funto talk to anyways, just
hilarious.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
It was great talking to you as well too.
Yeah, time flew by, so that's agood thing I know.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
I looked down my clock and I went no, we have not
been on here for an hour.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Great.
It's great and thank you foryour heart in ministering to
this specific aspect of thejourney, because it is deeply
needed.
So keep it up and there's anyway I can be an encouragement.
You know you can holler anytime.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that so much.
Well, thank you everyone forjoining me for another episode
of the back 40 podcast.
Stay tuned, join us the nexttime and, in the meantime, check
out everything about Mark andthe show notes, and we will see
you later.
Hi everyone.
Thanks for joining me foranother episode of the Back 40
Podcast.
I'm your host, mary Hess.
Today's guest wears many hats.
Mark DeHesus is joining me andhe is a former pastor, he's a
podcaster, he's an authorseveral books.
(00:22):
He has a thriving onlinepresence where he spends time
mentoring, training, equipping,counseling people who have
walked through hurt, who haveemotional baggage, who have
addictions that they needhealing from.
He takes time to share on hiswebsite through lives that he
(00:47):
does on YouTube and Rumble, andhelping people become healthier
versions of themselves.
That's what we're going tospend some time talking about
today.
Stay tuned.
Mark DeHesus is up next.
Thanks for joining me everyone.
(01:11):
I'm glad to have you foranother episode of the Back 40
Podcast.
Like I said in my intro, I havethe infamous Mark DeHesus with
me.
Mark, always a pleasure to chatwith you.
Thanks so much for joining metoday.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh, it's awesome to be here, mary.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation and what comes out
of it, so I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Absolutely so I'll just have you start by giving us
a little bit of background infowho's Mark and what's he do,
and what's life look like foryou these days.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, for about 30 years I've been involved in some
type of ministry role.
If we get into kind of what I do, I pastored at a large church
for about 12 years on staff andthen later on did some teaching
work.
I also pastored a small churchfor about six years and then
really moved into more and moreof what I'm doing now, which is
(02:05):
full-time teaching, writing,doing one-on-one work with
people and writing books andpodcasting and YouTube and all
that basically helping believersto experience greater healing
and freedom.
I love to dive into mental,emotional, relationship, health
stuff like that, and a big partof it comes out of my own
journey and recognizing thethings I needed to work through
(02:28):
and heal through.
But most of all, I'm a husbandto an amazing wife who also
works with me on in the ministryand also in our podcast,
melissa, and love my two kids,maximus, who's 15, going on at
16, and Abigail, who's 12 andgoing to be 13.
So we're in the midst ofteenage years and all that that
(02:51):
brings and I love being a dad, ahusband, I love being a son of
God and I'm enjoying what I'mable to pour out into people's
lives and I'm glad to be heretoo.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, I'm glad to have you on the show today, hey
Melissa, because you know hey,Melissa, shout out.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
You hear somewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
She's there.
Yeah, she's here somewhere.
I thought for just a moment.
I thought I should have saidsomething to her in text this
morning before recording andbeen like, hey, pop your head in
for a minute if you want Right.
Okay, so let's talk for thisjust for a minute, about this,
how, how you said earlier thatyou got into what you're doing
now A lot of what you're doingnow simply from your journey.
(03:37):
I know a little bit about yourstory.
You don't have to go into thewhole story but what did prompt
you?
Was it?
Was it a specific moment?
Was it a culmination of things?
What did prompt you to go?
You know what?
There are so many believers inthe world today who don't know
that they can live more free andhealthier and in a better mood
(03:58):
than what they currently do.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, I was working on staff at a church and I'd
been a youth pastor for a numberof years, was moving up into
then being like an associateoverseeing worship, and we did
church productions and all thesethings that churches growing in
numbers and all these greatthings as far as metrics were
happening.
But I was crumbling inside, Iwas anxiety was increasing.
(04:24):
I was dealing with a lot ofobsessiveness, a lot of pressure
, depression, up and down,anxiety that wasn't budging and
I would cope for as long as Icould.
When you're in your 20s you cankind of still live out of that
I'm invincible kind of mentality.
(04:44):
You know that you can kind ofjust keep going with the thought
process and the ways that yousurvive off of.
But it was in my late 20s that Ireally I need some help.
There's stuff going on here,there's stuff happening.
This, this, this ain't right,this is, this isn't healthy.
So I began to open myself up tostart to get help and healing
(05:10):
in a variety of ways.
It started off in gettingcounseling.
I went and received innerhealing help and deliverance
help.
There was a lot of differentpathways that had their pros and
their cons, but basically itwas out of that Like I was
getting to the point where Icouldn't get through the day.
I wasn't functioning, mythoughts were were taking me out
.
So, as I began to startexperiencing healing and
(05:34):
breakthrough, I would share justa little bit of my story with
people around me.
And like crazy, everyone'sgoing.
Yeah, I battled that too.
I have anxiety too.
I have depression.
This is like it just startedcoming out of the woodwork and I
realized like, yeah, most ofthe church is battling this
stuff, like, if not everybody,but the difference between each
(06:00):
person was who was hiding itbetter, and so I.
So, being a pastor, that was abig step too of saying, hey, I
got these struggles in thesebattles, but it was very
inviting for other people tothen, secondly, many were coming
forward and going.
I struggled with that too.
I should thank you, thank you.
I thought I thought I was a badChristian.
(06:20):
I thought I was.
You know, I thought I was crazy.
I thought, thank you, it's goodto know somebody battles it and
they're working through it.
And it was out of that.
I said I want to go in a wholenew direction.
I got I can't.
I couldn't do church the sameway anymore.
I couldn't stay within thecurrent matrix of kind of just
(06:44):
in that, that mode that we, manyof us, can relate to, like I
want to go help people.
I didn't have a clear map as toexactly what it would look like
, but I said I want to go teachpeople, help people, whatever it
looks like.
So I actually left a very stablepastoral position on staff at a
very, you know growing churchwith a large staff and resources
(07:08):
and stepped out into theunknown.
I said you just kind of startedover and so I want to just help
people.
We need healing in our hearts,we need renewal.
We're playing a lot of games,we're all deeply struggling, but
there's so much shame overhaving a struggle and so so it
was out of that that then led meinto a lot of heart healing
(07:29):
work, but also figuring out whatis it, what does it look like
as far as how God's using me inthis area?
Because when you talk aboutheart healing or mental health,
there's kind of these certainlittle boxes people put you in,
and it's understandable.
But I had to learn, like, whatis it that I'm passionate about?
What is it that I'm wanting todo and help people.
So that led me to this day nowin my late forties still going
(07:54):
about helping people in that way, but learning what does it look
like for me to flow out of howGod's wired me in helping people
.
So that's kind of the quicksnapshot to that.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, no, that's great.
That's great, and I think aboutthat myself in the sense of
whenever I was younger and wasgoing to go to college for the
first time.
I have always had this passionin me too.
I wanted to be a counselor, butI wanted to be one in the
denomination that we were in,because the penicostal
(08:27):
denomination we were in I alwayssaw all these people,
specifically in ministry, whenthey would burn out or make a
misstep, fall, whatever you wantto call it.
We didn't have a way to restorethem or help them stay on the
path, maybe not still doing thesame things, but at least stay
(08:48):
viable and stay active andhealthy.
We would just kick them out.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I used to say, when all students just kick them out?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Just kick them out.
We didn't know what to do.
It's the same thing with peoplewhen they have hard questions.
We don't always do a great jobof knowing how to navigate that.
I have always had this passionthat I wanted to find a way that
that would happen inside thechurch.
How can we find ways to makethat happen?
That's always been inside of me.
(09:19):
I love how creative that you'vebeen with finding your niche
and finding how it works andstill changing things and
re-upping them and taking thingsaway and moving them around in
order to reach people, becausewe have just not done a great
job of that.
While the trend has gottenbetter to do that, we are still
(09:43):
lagging behind in many areas ofthat.
I just really want to see thebody catch up to what that looks
like.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, I think there's an aspect of recognizing that
the church carries a lot ofbrokenness, that we become
professional at hiding it andmasking it.
I found you mentioned pastorsor church leaders having a
certain falling out or whateverthat's going on in their life.
(10:14):
I don't think we ever took timeto step back and go look at the
system of what we've created.
As far as the institutionalmodel of how we do church, is it
adding to the pressure andadding to a lot of things that
fuel broken patterns?
We come into ministry.
There's still broken areas ofour lives.
(10:36):
God uses us anyways, but it'show we do life as a church,
actually inflaming those brokenareas.
For example, I realize for me Ican't keep going on the healing
journey I've discovered whilestill in this church model of
constant performance mode, likego, go, go, do, do, do, with the
(11:00):
very little margin.
It's like every week, everySunday, every Saturday,
wednesday night, thursday night,this it's constant.
And then there's metrics,there's achievement metrics and
it's like, oh, we had morenumbers this week.
God is good, he's moving.
It's like, is that really thesoul metrics we're serving?
So I realized if I want to behealthy, I had to unplug from it
(11:24):
and kind of carve, a whole new.
What does it look like to servepeople but still have a rhythm
where I'm flowing out of ahealthier heart, versus chronic
burnout which I lived in?
Burnout every week.
Every week was burnout.
Every week was just like tryingto get by.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense.
Yeah, I think, for likewhenever I was younger as well,
in just watching.
And then, of course, Iexperienced it when I got a
divorce.
My practice husband and I wereboth simultaneously
excommunicated because no oneknew how to balance anything,
(12:10):
and so it was a big deal for mebecause of the fact that I was
27, 28 years old, had been doingthis my whole life, had been
devoted my whole life, and so itadds layers, right?
It's not just the initial issueof, oh, I'm walking through a
hard time in a divorce, but noweveryone, everything I've known
(12:32):
is gone, and so now I havechurch hurt, and now I have my
normal brokenness from my familyline, my generational, all the
things which just creates thisperfect storm.
And I just recognized prettyearly on, toward the end of
walking out of my divorce andbefore I met Shannon, that we
(12:54):
just our systems, were just notgreat, and even trying to change
the system from within can bequite a hard thing to do when
everyone has been used to thesystem as it was.
I had no idea we were goinghere today, mark.
This is a great topic.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Well, it's like there's so many directions we
could go, because when there'sjust a simple thing of a pastor
moving on from a church, right,there's so many things of I've
seen where it's like there'slike shut down in communication.
They don't, you don't speak tothem anymore.
There's like your gangs, yeah,yeah, right, like your gangs,
(13:36):
like you're not here anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You're not in here.
Yo, you don't get.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And if I, if I sit down and break down the
motivations and reasons, it'slike, okay, I get it, but we've,
we've lost the relationalcomponent, Like when somebody's
marriage breaks down, that oughtto be, you know, we're, we're.
Grace and love come in, evenmore so because that's such a
(14:01):
vulnerable experience to gothrough.
And I think it goes back towe're more focused on how things
look.
So so somebody, for example,gets a divorce, it's like it's
it's a ministerial PR campaignto kind of go, okay, how can we,
you know, how do?
we say this you got to move onright and it's not.
It doesn't become okay.
(14:23):
We got to A, we got to help, wegot to step back to and look,
okay, were there things alongthe way we missed?
And let's, let's all have a.
Just a sober.
You know, understanding ofwhat's happening here.
So so when I watch, it kind ofgoes into like when I watch on
(14:44):
TV or in the news, somebody hasa you know, I don't know pastors
.
They find out he's an alcoholic.
I go, yeah, I'd be an alcoholictoo if I had to run that giant
church the way they run it.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
We're just quick to go oh, my goodness, that's
terrible and we don't get to.
Hey, what's going on that ledin the trail of this?
How can we be more sober in ourlives of, of, of, of creating
culture in a way that doesn't?
No, listen, we all have to dobusiness with our own choices
and our own brokenness.
How can we live in a way wherewe're actually increasing health
(15:22):
in the people around us?
Right, like people are gettingmore and more healthier?
Right, there's this tension,though, that we have in America,
especially in in achievementculture.
We sacrifice that on the altarof God's doing a work and we're
growing and we're getting big.
You got to get on board, so weuse a lot of these, we use a lot
of terminology that's more likeyou know what Google and
(15:45):
YouTube and Facebook would use,and like you're getting on brand
and getting on mission andgetting out like let's go, go,
go, and it's like no, workingwith people is messy, it doesn't
work in a machine and itdoesn't drive through.
It's messy, it's painful, it's,at times, inconvenient, it's
hard.
Grace, grace, rolls up itsleaves when people are are
(16:07):
broken, but in our, a lot of ourstructures, we don't have time
to deal with your mess.
So does be right.
Right, we got to service, wegot to think right and I
understand, but where's thespace for life?
Where's the space to sit downand and and do life together and
and be connected together andrealize we're going through
(16:27):
stuff and that takes it takesmore margin than we're allowing.
So, yeah, it caused me to go.
How do I want to carve my life?
Where A I'm making room forwhat I need in my journey, my
family needs, and and and paceout how I can, because you can
easily get in this kind of workand fry yourself out trying to
change the world, right?
(16:49):
So there's, there's a lot Ithink that we can learn and
adjust to and how we, how weeven look at brokenness.
There's a lot of learning thatneeds to be done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I was just thinking about the fact that you
know you.
It's hard for people to grasp,I think, what it looks like to
actually that phrase do lifetogether it's.
I say this all the time, but Ithink a lot of times we've done
ourselves a huge disservice andwe're almost probably more
(17:23):
dangerous than helpful when weget just a slight taste of
something and or the terminologyfor it because it's the hippest
, coolest, on trendiest way tosay things.
Now, you know, you're my people, we're a family, we're a tribe.
I'm working on my heart.
(17:43):
You know blah, blah and peoplewill use all of the phrase ology
.
But to really do that, to reallyaccomplish that, that requires
some major intentionality oneveryone's parts to dig in to
Each other's lives and not in anosy kind of way, just in a
(18:04):
realistic.
Hey, I'm not just seeing you onSunday morning, I'm not just
Checking on you because I wantto make sure you're not doing
some kind of great sin and Ican't let you up on my stage.
You know, just whatever thosethings are, but it's super messy
and it's super frustrating andcan also be absolutely rewarding
(18:26):
at the same time.
But but it's.
It requires a commitment and anintentionality that I don't
know that.
I Think that, especially sinceCOVID, we've had a hard time
digging back into, because we'veLearned that we can do things
like this right, like I can sithere and chat with you over zoom
, and there's nothing wrong withthat.
But if I'm not beingintentional in the way I'm
(18:47):
talking to you, if I'm notinteracting with people, then
then I don't have to show up todo those things, and and so I
find that it's been really hardto kind of break back into that
mold, especially Coming fromeverybody's being isolated, and
now we don't have to be anymore,you know.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
I thought COVID was gonna be a great opportunity for
the church to reboot.
I Thought you know what thethings got shut down for a while
right.
I thought, you know, this be agreat, great opportunity to Shed
off a lot of excess stuff,things that don't matter, things
(19:26):
that kind of got in the way,and get back to the fundamentals
.
And instead we just got betterat live streaming, I know, you
know, and we just kind of wekind of doubled down on the
stage rather than Doing more ofthis, even if it has to be
remote, even if it has to, where, where, you know, we just kind
(19:49):
of kept that mode.
We just want that, we want to,we want to sit in an audience,
have somebody on stage tell ussomething or give us a good
experience, and then we, weconnect that as well.
I've been to church now, I'mconnected, or whatever.
Whatever the phrase Yalogy isright.
Yeah, here's the thing Idiscovered.
That's very startling for me.
(20:09):
It's a very sober Awareness.
I worked at a larger church.
When I say larger church, it'slike New England larger, which
was like 1500, which is reallybig, and in Connecticut, you
know, down south is like youknow, but there's one there,
there's one there, yeah, anyways, right, but a large pastoral
staff, so forth.
And I also pastured in a smallchurch setting.
(20:30):
I think at the top it wouldmaybe 80 people Okay.
So I've had both settings right.
Then I've done like kind of theteaching route, you know, kind
of going to different churches,teaching, doing that kind of
work and stuff too.
I find in what I do now, whichis weekly podcasting, but I do a
lot of one-on-one and then I doI have a online community.
(20:54):
I'm part I Pastor and shepherdpeople more now Then I ever did
in any of those other roles Withmy official pastor title person
.
Well, that's startling.
I was back then many in,especially in the, the first
church.
I was just more putting eventstogether or Like I didn't know
(21:19):
what people were going.
I mean, people could have beenHaving, you know, suicidal
thoughts, depression, could havebeen losing their marriage.
I wouldn't even know.
I wouldn't even know it waslike hey, I need you to show up
to run the live board, hey, Ineed you.
That that's about it.
It was startling to me that Irealized why I didn't really
know any of these people.
I, I, we were so busy doing wewere never Actually connecting.
(21:43):
Yeah, and and when I say dolife, I don't mean like I'm all
up in your business and I know,you know, you know like, like,
but there's a, there's a senseof, of I'm learning to, to be
encouraged and sharpened andstrengthened and and built up
when I'm around, like if I'minteracting with Mary, I To meet
(22:04):
to me.
This is kind of how I defineBelievers life together when.
I'm around, when I'm around you,I walk away and I'm I'm better.
Yeah, absolutely right, likeyeah, I don't like to.
I don't like to use the wordsharpening, because sometimes
people take that as, like youknow, did you read your Bible
today?
Did you kind of like that kindof thing?
And it's like no, I want, whenI'm around somebody, that
(22:29):
there's just that, there's theseasoning of my life, enhances
the flavor of their life.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely yeah.
I agree with that.
I think that's that's a very,very good definition of that.
You, you're learning from oneanother, you're encouraging one
another, you're edifying,exhorting one another.
It's and that can look avariety of ways depending on
where you are, what you're doingin life, and you know, but
(22:59):
there is, it's just it goes backto that intentionality.
There is just an intentionalitythat that comes from doing that
, where Just showing up andinteracting with one another on
a Sunday morning or a Wednesdaynight or a Thursday night, you
won't get.
Because we've been, we werepreaching about this even on
Sunday.
We went to church for yearswith people and we didn't know
them.
You know, we would go to lunchtogether, we'd go out to eat,
(23:21):
but everything was just kept atthis very surface level and you
just, I can remember walkingaway so many times going.
I'll never be that kind ofChristian.
I, if they knew what was reallygoing on inside of me, they
probably would kick me outbecause how are they doing this,
how are they doing this and notstruggling and not having
(23:42):
questions?
And Something must be wrongwith me because clearly, clearly
, they're not experiencing that,or surely they would tell me.
But you know, the atmospherewasn't there Right to have any
kind of reciprocal.
Hey, are you, you know?
Are you struggling with?
Are you like you said?
Once you opened the door, youwere shocked at the number of
(24:05):
people that came rushing forwardand was like let me in.
Yes, yes, this is me a thousandtimes over.
How are you fixing it?
What do we need to do?
Help, so that's.
That's been a real outpner forus since when we started going
to New Day in Charleston, thechurch we were going to.
We had never experiencedanything like an Atmosphere like
(24:27):
that, where inner healing wascelebrated, like they cheered
you on while you were dyinginside.
Oh, my gosh, that's so good,you know, and you'd be like you
know, so I.
What was a, what was ameaningful?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
What was a meaningful reference or experience for you
where Interacting, whether itwas somebody in ministry or
somebody just in church life?
Where did you find anexperience where you're like oh,
this is what I long for.
Do you have like Something thatyou're like this?
We need more of this, yeah,yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Um, yeah, so Probably early on, when we were, when we
were first attending thischurch plant, you know, in
Charleston New Day, I hadstarted Leading worship and,
where I came from, if you hadany issues or problems or things
didn't go well, they would justsit you down.
That's what they did.
They would say you know what,why don't you you know he was, I
(25:28):
don't know, you may be notpraying enough or something why
don't you sit down and take abreak?
And of course it was punishment.
It wasn't in the hopes that youwould get better, it was just
to remind you that that they,you know, that's just how it's
gonna be.
So we were at this church and wehad been there probably
Probably a year and was gettingto know people, but I was pretty
standoffish because I didn'ttrust People's motives.
(25:51):
Because of what we came from.
I had never seen a workingmodel that was healthy, and so I
just thought everything was alittle too Fake.
That can't be real, thatsomeone really cares about me
like that.
And I had when I would get insituations where I didn't know
how I felt about the atmosphereof what was being discussed or
(26:13):
talked about.
I'm a very talkative person.
I'm a very extroverted personin most settings, but when I'm
uncomfortable I become veryintroverted and I withdraw down
to keep from saying somethingthat I might have to apologize
for later.
So I thought I was doing thisreally cool thing of Showing my
wisdom by being quiet, but Ididn't realize that the way I
(26:35):
got quiet sucked the life out ofthe room.
You know what I mean.
It was more about, like,everything that got quiet still
said the thing that I was tryingnot to say with my vocal chords
.
Right, I was still very much.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
You could, you may, you may throw in their a bless
your heart.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So my pastor, she, she, she said to me one day hey,
let's go for a coffee.
And I thought we were literallygoing for a coffee.
And so we met at a coffee shopand and she said, she said to me
hey, listen, um, you know, Ijust want to talk to you about
something that I've observed.
And I was like okay, and shesaid I've observed several times
(27:23):
when you're in a situation thatyou're not either comfortable
with or you're not happy about,or you disagree with, you
withdraw into yourself.
And I'm like, okay, I didn'teven know, I did it.
Honestly, I had never hadanybody pointed out to me and I
said, okay, until she named thespecific times and I could
remember what she was talkingabout.
(27:44):
And I was like, oh, yeah, I did.
And she said why did you dothat?
And I said I did it because Ididn't agree.
But I didn't know what to sayor if it was okay not to agree.
So I just shut, I just kind ofgot quiet because I thought
there's, I don't want to saysomething wrong and get punished
for it, and so I thought it wasbetter to say nothing.
(28:05):
And she goes.
Well, you know, she said Idon't know if you realize this
or not, but but you haveinfluence.
People pay attention, you're aninfluencer and I had never had
anybody tell me that before.
I'm 37 years old and I've neverhad anybody tell me that.
And I'm like, okay.
She said so people watch youand you affect atmospheres.
(28:27):
When you walk into a room, ifyou're being gregarious,
everybody's laughing and talking.
If you get quiet and shut downbecause you're upset, it
literally she used the phrasesucks the oxygen out of the room
.
And I went I am so sorry.
Well, I start crying because Ithink here it comes, she's gonna
sit me down because I've done abad thing, and.
And so I said I'm so sorry, howdo I fix it?
(28:51):
And and she said well, let's,let's figure out why you're
doing that.
Let's talk about that.
How about we get together nextweek and we'll talk about the
wise and we'll just see if maybeyou can remember the first time
you've ever done that and we'lljust.
She started really just kind ofdigging in and I'm sitting there
crying and I said okay.
I said, well, I Mean what doyou want me to?
Do you want me to not leadworship?
(29:12):
I mean I'll sit down.
That that's fine.
I mean, I don't have to be upon stage.
I realize that this is bad andand I've done a bad thing.
So I and she looked at me soincredulous and said Mary, what
are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
And I mean, I said, what do youmean?
And she goes you're, you're notin trouble, this is not who you
(29:32):
are.
We're gonna fix it, we're gonnawork on it.
I'm here to help you do that,but you need to pay attention to
it and try not to do it.
Think about what you're doing.
This is something that's justbeing brought to your attention,
and I'm sitting there and all Ican think is is I have never
had someone correct me and helpme, and still, I still felt like
(29:56):
they loved me and they were inmy corner, and so that was the
moment I went.
There is a way you can do thisthat changes people's lives, and
I mean, at that moment, shecould have told me a thousand
things I did wrong, and I wouldwant to change them, because I
knew that Somebody wanted me to,for the right reasons.
Mm-hmm, make sense.
(30:18):
Yeah, that was.
That was not thought.
That's when I thought how can Ido this?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah, it's interesting because where, where
the story went, she, she movedfrom initially a Relationship
based on correction when itcould have just repeated the
typical pattern, right.
That's one of the things that'sfrustrating in church.
Our relationships are,especially leadership.
(30:46):
It's based on correction.
It's kind of like, okay,everybody, just do your thing.
But when we meet it's gonna becorrection.
Like if the average pastorcalled somebody said, hey, could
I, could I have a talk with you, can I cough?
It's immediately like I'm goingto the principal's office.
What did I do?
Here we go, I'm getting kickedout, I'm getting confronted
right.
A lot of times, it's true, alot of times it's like, yep,
you're gonna be, and and there's, there's no relational band
(31:11):
with being built because Icorrections, built out a
relationship right, and builtout of like, leading in the flow
.
So, anyways, so there's athere's, there's a point where
that could have Really reallygone, that that pattern, but in
the midst of it you made adecision of this can be more
invest I, I more care, I'm moreone like and and this isn't just
(31:33):
about whether or not you'regonna fill a position or not, I
really want to be a help to you.
Yeah and I think, um, in thechurch we approach a lot of
relationship out of what do youbring as far as service or
contribution here, because wegot a, we got a, we got a thing
we're doing that we need you tocontribute to, and, and so then
either you're doing that oryou're not, and then, if you
(31:55):
move in to another position,instead of the relationship
being, um, knowing and beingknown, and Now there's bonding
taking place, right, right, andit's like, no matter what
happens, I want to, I just wantto be a blessing to you.
Um, it's a struggle and itcreates this pattern where, um,
(32:16):
people are petrified overinteracting even with authority
figures, because, yeah it's ofour experience, we're so this,
this is, this is terrifying.
And then we wonder why we'reafraid of god and we avoid god,
and we, you know, his holiness,is like Uh, something to,
something to be scared of.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, no, it's, that's so true.
I, um, I think that that thatactually lit this thing inside
of me that switched it from um,you know that, um, when I mean
because you do like, when youhave the gift of discernment or
you are Apostolic in any kind ofway where you see systems that
(32:57):
are broken that you want to Fix,you know, like I'm all about
systems how can we make this runsmoother?
What is the ways that we canmake this more efficient?
How, what are we doing wronghere?
Because this doesn't seem to beworking.
But it switched something in mefrom that.
Okay, I see all the wrongthings and we need to fix those
to.
(33:17):
Oh, the, the, the Joy and theI'm going to use the word
satisfaction, but it's not quitethe word I'm looking for of
seeing people grab a hold ofsomething and run with it when
it comes to inner healing andworking on their heart, issues
Like that catalyst being justthat catalyst that causes them
(33:38):
to flip and go.
Oh.
So this is a good thing.
This is, this is something thatcauses me to grow and in the
process, the relationship isBonded in a way that that I
don't.
I don't know it's.
It's very different.
I find that when you walk withsomeone through things like that
(34:01):
, it changes the way you look atrelationship in general and the
way you value relationship ingeneral, and I value that
interaction and I think, fromthat point forward, anytime I
mean I had to practice it.
I'm not perfect at it, butanytime in leadership that I've
ever had to have hardconversations, I've always tried
(34:23):
to approach them from a this isnot who you are.
Here's what I wanna do to helpyou in the process of walking
through this.
But this is just a blip in thejourney.
This is not a definition of whoyou are, and to watch people
grab that and change is verymuch a.
(34:44):
That's training and equipping.
To me, that is making disciplesand growing people in maturity
in the kingdom of God, becausewe have a lot of really immature
believers and it's becausethey've never had a fair shot at
someone helping them mature andgrow, and a lot of that happens
(35:04):
in relationship.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I had to.
I found in when I was in likeinstitutional, official,
pastoral capacities, I if that'sa thing I found that I had to
deal with compulsiveconfrontation and compulsive
like we gotta talk about thisissue.
Part of it was my own strugglewith compulsive, where I had
(35:30):
always had this sense of likepressure that I gotta fix things
in me and other people.
But I also saw it modeled a lottoo, a lot of like the sit
downs.
You know, you see somethinggoing on, you go after it,
immediately, confront it anddeal with it.
And I found that as I began tolet that compulsive behavior get
(35:52):
addressed, where I delay thatyou know what I mean Like I'm
not just gonna jump on this, I'mgonna, I notice it.
You know I talk a lot about OCDand mental health and stuff
like that.
But there is this thing whereas Christians we compulsively
correct people, we compulsivelyjump on things and we don't look
to build relationship first.
And then I found when I wouldwithhold not withhold but delay
(36:14):
that sense of like I gotta talkabout this I'd go, god, you know
what you see it.
You see what's going on.
I would see the Holy Spirit doso much more work.
It's not that I was avoidingthe issue, it was.
I let love and grace surroundit because it puts in
perspective.
For example, I in the church thesecond church, the one that I
(36:35):
had pastored there were manypeople that were.
You know other pastors weresending people to our church.
Hey, you know, that guy doesthis stuff.
Go there, like, okay, thanks alot.
But there's all kinds.
I deal with all kinds of battlesand stuff that people were
dealing with, from mental healthbattles to deep trauma, pains,
(36:56):
and you know, everybody hastheir goofiness, you know.
And when I would sit down withsomeone and process for a bit
their story, it's like you'dstand back and you go, I get it,
yep, I get it.
Then you go to church on Sundayand somebody's like, hey, you
know so-and-so and they'd becomplaining about whatever their
(37:19):
quirk is of that person.
And I'd be like, if you onlyknew Right, if you only knew
Right and I'm not saying itexcuses, you know irresponsible
behavior, but it really doeswhen you get a lens of
compassionate grace and you geta taste of somebody's journey.
That's why I'm a big believer inpeople, people, the why, why
(37:43):
people do things you knowthey're just doing just because,
just a thought just dropped onthem.
There's just history, there'spatterns, there's, and when you
recognize that, it gives you alot more patience for people.
But I realized, in myfast-paced world, not only did I
not even know what you werestruggling with, I had no time
for it, and I found that God hashad me in this journey of
(38:05):
slowing down more and more andmore to not only, you know,
smell the roses, but actuallysee that there's roses there.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Right, exactly, yeah, no, that's good.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah, it's like it's easy to throw stones.
It's easy to, like you know,just tear people down.
It's easy to just write a quicksentence of what people
struggle with.
There's stuff going on thatwhen you get even a picture of
it and I would tell some ofthese people in church, if you
only knew what they've beenthrough, Right, you know, if you
only knew the pain and strugglethat they've had, that you'd
(38:40):
actually go while they're amiracle, they're as far as they
are.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Oh yeah.
Yeah so it changes yourperspective.
Definitely.
I think it gives you grace toactually walk with somebody
versus trying to pull them alongwith the expectation that you
can fix it, you know, by simplycorrecting a behavior or a
(39:03):
thought pattern or whatever.
It's a process, it's a journey.
It takes time and I think Godis way more concerned and
interested in our journey thanhe is how quickly we can get
from point A to point B, youknow.
I think we have to change ourmindsets to that.
So, on that note, let's talk forjust a minute about how we can,
(39:27):
how we can, in the second halfof life, live full and well and
legacy-wise, like what we can dofor people around us, because I
, you know, I hear this a lot ofpeople who haven't started
experiencing any kind of freedomin their lives and they're in
(39:49):
their 50s, they're in their 40s,they're in their 60s, 70s,
whatever.
Well, this is just how I am.
I've been this way for 40 years, bless God, or, you know, it's
too late, it's just I got a lotof baggage.
This is I've already been doingthis.
You know what would be thepoint at this point?
That kind of thing.
What do you find in yourteaching and in interacting with
(40:11):
people the way you do throughyour website and through all of
the podcasts and everything.
What are you finding?
What could you offer?
Just give us some insight onthat.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Well, I'll start with myself.
I became passionate about hearthealing in my late 20s but I
still had no idea the brokennessthat I was dealing with.
I thought I did, but I didn't.
So when I turned 30, I was likeJesus His ministry started when
he was 30.
I'm just I'm getting, I'mgetting going, it's gonna happen
.
And really it wasn't until my40s and I had children and I
(40:47):
really started to have veryeffective, fruitful awareness of
things in big ways.
And you have to understand,like all of my 30s, that's all I
did was help people teach oninter healing, do sessions with
people, write books.
That's all I did, right, and itwas still probably a good.
(41:08):
13 years later, I remembercrossing into the 40s and there
is a different awareness that Ibegan to have.
I slowed down more.
I started to see my history inrenewed ways.
So we see older years as adisadvantage, but it's often in
those years now you're enteringinto the age your parents were,
(41:33):
when they were goofy in theirparenting, right, and now I
start to go.
Okay, I still don't think thatwas the best way to go about
life, but I get it more.
I get what you were goingthrough more.
So I feel that as I entered, Ifeel that now my the bracket of
40 to 50 that I'm in now hasbeen for me.
(41:55):
There's been another notch,another level, and I think that
going into the bracket of 50 to60 will have even more of that.
I have a lot of people write tome.
As far as those that take in mymaterials, you know, I'm in my
fifties, my sixties, in myseventies and I don't know.
I feel like it's too late.
There's too much damage thathas been done.
(42:19):
One of the things that I findthat's a game changer, no matter
what age you're in, is thepower of honest humility.
Humility has a very powerfulfamily dynamic that people don't
understand.
I'll sit down with somebody whohas like just a lot of family
dysfunction.
They come from right.
(42:40):
Parents are old.
How old's your parents?
I don't know, maybe they're 60,70 years old, right, I said how
meaningful.
What would it do for you if yourdad sat the family down and
said I need to talk to everybody?
I'm going to tell you I've donesome damage.
(43:00):
My parenting wasn't healthy andI wasn't a father I needed to
be.
I didn't get what I needed todo and you know what?
I didn't pursue it and I seehow it affected you, I see how
it affected your journey and itwasn't right, it wasn't God.
I'm sorry and I'm healing.
(43:23):
I've decided to take some steps.
I got to work on myself and Iknow you need to see it.
So I'm not going to make talkcheap.
I know you need to see it, butI got some work to do and I'm
not going to force anything orforce any agenda on any of you.
I got to work on myself and Isay, what would that do?
(43:45):
And most people would say, well, after I got done, balling my
eyes out for about an hour likeugly crying yeah, we do a lot.
So I think that you can.
Yes, there's, there's a, there's, there's a collection of debris
(44:05):
that collects, you know, moreand more over the years.
Sure, it's more that, it's morethat patterns getting grained,
but we think they're moreingrained than others and it's
like you know, in 30 days youcan create a habit.
In 30 days you can move a newhabit.
From a technical standpoint, Iknow it's not easy, but but I
(44:26):
think a the power of humilitycan break down a lot of
strongholds and break down a lotof patterns.
True humility, not just well,I'm sorry I made you feel that
way.
That's not humility, you know,that's what you know, that's
that's, that's the, that's theopposite effect.
But but true, like I've got towork on myself and I'm, talk is
cheap, I just, I just want tolet you know and I'm deeply,
(44:49):
deeply sorry.
Now we position ourselves forgenerational healing in profound
ways, because we're notdefensive.
Humility lowers the defenses ofour survival.
You know well, I was.
I was a single mother and Ionly knew what I already did.
Okay, we get it.
We get it.
It's not about the reasons whyit's stuff happened.
(45:10):
And humility goes, man, I'msorry I wasn't, I wasn't in that
place.
That that so I.
So I think humility is huge,but but also recognizing thought
patterns.
Any thought pattern in yourlife can shift and change,
provided your teachable.
It's going to take relearningand it's going to take practice.
So I think you know, humble andteachable are the, are the
(45:37):
secrets that.
That's what has helped me at anystage in my life, because it's
usually the broken areas of mylife are not only hurting my
journey, but they're alsostubborn.
They don't want to quit.
That stuff doesn't want to justleave.
It wants to stay intact.
It's familiar, it's toxic, it's, it's unhealthy, you know, but
(46:01):
it's.
It wants to stay there, itwants to keep its influence.
So there's a stubbornness to it.
But when, when I humble myselfand go, all right, I want to
learn, I want to grow, I try tocommunicate that to my kids.
That Sure, no, the way I wentabout it, that way, max, that
that wasn't right.
(46:21):
I'm sorry, I apologize, yeah,because because the previous
generation struggled with that,with the sense of I was wrong,
I'm sorry.
You know, there was this likeyou got to keep the veneer that
you're the parent, you're theauthority figure, and we got to
keep that untouchable.
So mistakes, violence, you knowinappropriate things, showing
(46:46):
one thing in church and showinga different thing at home wasn't
acknowledged.
That hey, we get that.
That was confusing for you andyou know so I think.
I think the humility andteachability is is dynamite
kingdom power at any stage and Ithink the older you get, the
more you can have a biggerpicture view of how stuff
(47:09):
affected you.
I find as I get older I startto become more, as the years go
on, more and more aware.
Oh man, when that happened whenI was 12, I get it, my goodness
, and I also go.
I get why my parents wereexhausted all the time.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Right, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Right, I can see those moments where they went.
Yeah, I'm not going to bothertalking about it.
You know right.
Yes, I get, I made a differentdecision.
You know that I want toactually dive into some of these
areas with my kids, but I getit, and now I become less
judgmental and it frees me up toheal more.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
So so good, mark, so good.
I love that.
Well, we could do this forever,and we've almost done it for an
hour now, so apparently we haveno problem talking.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
That's true.
That's very, very true.
Yeah, now, this is great.
You can go in a lot ofdifferent directions.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Absolutely, I'll have to have you back on and we'll
go some different ones, becausethere's just so much to talk
about when it comes to thesecond half of life and how we,
how we do this.
But I cannot end this podcastwithout asking you the question
that I ask everyone, and that isif you could go back to your 20
(48:29):
something year old self withall of the wisdom, knowledge and
experience that you have rightnow, what would you say to Mark?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Here's the problem the young 20 something wouldn't
listen to me.
Yeah, but if some part of thismiracle equation means it's a
miracle, mark's going toactually listen and take this in
, because he's in survival mode.
(48:59):
He's invincible.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
He's invincible.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
Correct Christian survival mode.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
You know, I had the mindset of yeah, I'm good, I'm
good, right, I'm good.
You know, you good, I'm good,we're all good, it's fine, it's
just cute, just keep moving on.
I would say, I would say, well,this gets into a big part of my
journey.
I would tell him you live undera lot of pressure in your
(49:29):
thoughts, within your emotions,within your life, and you don't
have to live to that.
You're going to need to learnwhat it means to be loved by
your father in heaven, becauseyou're struggling in connecting
to that and you're going to haveto learn how to be kind,
patient and more compassionateto yourself.
It's going to be a big theme.
It's going to be really, reallyimportant, because a lot of
(49:52):
stuff that you are pressuringyourself over it's hindering you
more than it is helping you.
But again, I would have to bewilling to listen to that and
try to pay attention.
I need you.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, little whippersnapper.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
I mean, I have to take my cheeks and go.
I need you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
Look at me, grab him right under the chin, oh my.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
God Holy, please listen to me right now.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
I'm trying to save you some heartache and you won't
listen.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Yes, yeah, and I would.
I would also tell him if I waslistening.
When I look back at my journey,I felt this call to help people
, to to be in ministry, and myonly options that I thought was
either I was going to be amissionary, you know, and be,
you know, barefoot and poor thatwas just kind of my mindset.
(50:44):
Be a pastor, or maybe atraveling evangelist Right,
those are my only three optionsthat I thought of and it's taken
me well since then, you know,30 years to walk this journey of
it doesn't have to look likethat, right.
How has God wired me?
And let me step into that, evenif I have to, you know, pioneer
(51:09):
it.
I had to do a lot of pioneering.
That was very, very difficultand I'm still on that journey,
but I would have liked to haveseen more permission, for I had
a lot of creative avenues and alot of things that maybe I would
have gone outside of just achurch mold and but that
wouldn't be seen as ministry.
Yeah, it is you know, I'm right,I am in God Sure and so,
(51:30):
anyways, I could probably see afew more things.
Can we have some dinner?
I need to.
We only have a long talk.
No, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Well, tell everyone how they can get ahold of you.
Some of your books give us alittle synopsis.
I'll have all of this in theshow notes as well, but do a
little selfless plug for you,yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, markdahesuscom.
M-a-r-k-d-e.
If you can spell Jesus, justput a D-E in front of it.
M-a-r-k-d-e-j-e-s-u-scom.
They can get a free ebook onexperiencing God's love.
As your father, I do a lot ofwork on mental health topics.
I have a topic section you cango to and I have hundreds and
(52:09):
hundreds of broadcasts that aretopic related.
They can search and go throughthose.
But a lot of heart healingstuff, relationship stuff, and
we do a Sunday night live, mywife and I.
I dress a topic, we dressquestions and then throughout
the week I post videos and it'savailable in podcasting on
YouTube Rumble stuff like that.
(52:30):
But you can check it all thereat the website.
And my latest book is on theOCD healing journey, which maybe
, if we get together anothertime, I can spend some time
talking about that.
Yes, we will definitely do that.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
I got that book.
I really enjoyed that book.
It was great I love on yourwebsite.
I was going back through it awhile ago before we hopped on to
record this and I was like, oh,that's right, I forgot he had
that page with all those topicsyou can literally click on.
This is brilliant.
I love it.
It's just so succinct and easyto access and full of really,
(53:04):
really, really, really goodstuff.
So thank you so much for forpioneering in the kingdom and
being willing to step outside ofthe traditional roles of what
ministry looks like.
The body is better off becauseyou are doing this and super
excited to have this as aresource and just you're such a
(53:26):
gift to the kingdom mark and I'mreally glad that our paths have
crossed and you're just you andMelissa.
We just love you guys are funto talk to anyways, just
hilarious.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
It was great talking to you as well too.
Yeah, time flew by, so that's agood thing I know.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
I looked down my clock and I went no, we have not
been on here for an hour.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Great.
It's great and thank you foryour heart in ministering to
this specific aspect of thejourney, because it is deeply
needed.
So keep it up and there's anyway I can be an encouragement.
You know you can holler anytime.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
I appreciate that.
I appreciate that so much.
Well, thank you everyone forjoining me for another episode
of the back 40 podcast.
Stay tuned, join us the nexttime and, in the meantime, check
out everything about Mark andthe show notes, and we will see
you later.
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