S1E4 Coming Out

Growing Up LGBTQ+ in a Pentecostal Church

In this episode of The Backslider Diaries, our guest shares their powerful story of growing up queer in a strict Pentecostal household — and what it was like coming out not only to their preacher father and deeply religious family, but also to their wife and close friends.

We dive into the weight of religious expectations, internal conflict, and the path to self-acceptance after years of repression. This is a story about identity, truth, and the cost of living authentically.

If you've ever questioned who you are in the face of rigid belief systems, this one’s for you.

🌐 Resources:

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to The Backslider Diaries, the podcast for the
faithful, the frustrated, and everyone caught somewhere
between a pulpit and a panic attack.
I'm T. And I'm Jay, and we're glad to
have you here. First off, we wanted to say
sorry it's been so long since our last episode.
But things being what they are, I got sick and had pneumonia and

(00:20):
decided to spare you all from hearing me cough up a lung over
the interwebs. So we are back, happy to be
here. And today we are very, very
honored and happy to have a wonderful special guest.
Today we have in the studio withus a dear friend that we've
known for a long, long, long time.
We were just talking about how long we've known each other, but

(00:43):
Lance is here with us, so Lance,welcome.
Hey, thank you. It's good to hear your voice
finally. Yeah, it's, it's been.
Let's see, I'm not going to say how old any of us are, but let's
say. France was probably on TV.
Yeah, France was probably on, and it's a free syndication the

(01:06):
last time we saw each other. I'm trying to think, let's see,
we've known each other since, gosh, what, 80?
Before I had ATV by the way. Dude, since before any of us had
ATV it was the devil. I know I was able to drive
because I made it from, I'm not going to say where it was,

(01:29):
Lance's town, to our town in record time one night and I got
in trouble because I I made it way too fast.
So by way of backgrounds, Lance and T and I all grew up in the
same faith tradition. We all grew up in the Were you
Pentecostal background or did you come from Assemblies of God?

(01:49):
No, it was, it was. We were always considered
independent. We didn't join the organization.
But yeah, belief wise it was thesame.
It was the same. It was the.
Same. Same flavor, different ice
cream, right? So, yeah, we've known each other
since we were kids. To you, I think we're a young
teenager. I was a preteen when we first

(02:11):
met. In fact, I think I remember the
first time that we met because Irecalled your mother as having
the most beautiful blue eyes I'dever seen in my entire life.
Believe that. Yeah, they were just stunning.
And I was like, wow, she looks like a Barbie to me.
And I think I was probably 10, maybe 11 when we met.

(02:33):
And I think I was. 12 Yeah, I mean, I was 12.
I think that's right because you're just a couple years older
than me, because I think you're close to my cousin's age.
My yeah, I think you guys were right in the same bracket, but
our fathers were both pastors and as it turned out, they
actually wound up kind of Co pastoring for a while.

(02:55):
So we really did go through the thick of our Pentecostal teenage
identity together. And it's been really interesting
kind of growing up and seeing the paths that all three of our
lives have taken. And it's definitely been a
journey. And we would love to hear if you
would like to share some of yourstory and feel free to share

(03:18):
your background and you know anything that anything that
you'd like to share about. Yeah, sure.
So let me try to hit the milestones and then I'm sure
that'll probably elicit some questions along the way.
So, so I did grow up Pentecostal.
My father was a Pentecostal preacher.
He was also a pastor at some point growing up.
And that was a pretty much, I was raised in a bubble,

(03:40):
basically. You guys can relate that I went
to a church school my whole life.
I never went to a public school to speak of except for
kindergarten. I don't count that.
So our church school, our church, that was pretty much my
own lie. Like I was, I was in the bubble
with all the Pentecostal restrictions that you're
familiar with as far as not having television, all the dress

(04:01):
codes that went along with it. Ours went a little further.
Like I wasn't allowed to participate in any team sports
or anything like that as well. No bowling for some reason.
I don't know why bowling was always singled down, but.
The devil, the devils, and the pins.
It's strange, like I don't like we were allowed to rent a roller
skating rink or something like no mixed bathing if anyone under

(04:22):
30 even knows what that term means anymore like.
You can't swim with the boys. No shorts.
I mean, so lots of lots of things that would really single
you out and have you essentiallyin a bubble.
And I didn't know any different.I really didn't, you know
people. So this is I'm going to hit the
church stuff first, I guess, andthen I'll kind of go back and
overlay the the other part. So that's that was my life.

(04:44):
And I actually probably have YouTube because I stayed in
Pentecostal church until 2006. So I probably made it a little
bit longer. A little bit, yeah, just a
little bit. So I guess what I need to
overlay with is in 2016, I came out gay and that was a big
moment in my life after. Congratulations and the church.

(05:06):
Thank you very much. And happy pride, by the way.
Happiest of prides. Yeah, and to.
All our listeners who celebrate,happy pride to you all as well.
Absolutely, I can't tell my parents how I feel about
religion, much less if I was in your situation.
No, it's. Man, that is, that takes some
strength right there. Yeah, I had my nose ring them

(05:27):
from them when I was in my 40s. So to you, Yeah.
No, I appreciate that. And honestly, that experience of
coming out, like you said, it is, is almost universal in terms
of even if you're coming out sexuality, if you're coming out
of Pentecostalism and beliefs. And I mean, there's a very
similar experience in terms of the fear and the courage that it
takes to be yourself and to be authentic with those that you

(05:51):
care about and love. So I think it's a shared
experience even beyond. That's interesting and not to
and not to hijack your story because I want to go back to
that, but that brought up an interesting point in my journey.
I have seen and read and heard so many people use that language
and you know, not to Co opt the culture, but to kind of borrow

(06:13):
from that because there is a a lack of language of what?
What do you call it when you're when you're opening up,
especially when your whole family is enshrouded in a belief
system and you're coming to the table saying I, I no longer am
this thing that everyone of you are.
I no longer see the world the way that you have told me to see

(06:34):
it. And I'm going to be living my
life in a way that you probably are very much not going to agree
with based on closely held principles.
And I've heard people in the in deconstruction use that
terminology of coming out of theChristian closet.
And I think that that's a reallyinteresting perspective from
your point of view of seeing that there is some commonality

(06:55):
to the experience. So I thought that was
interesting. But go ahead.
Go ahead with your point, you. Were sharing.
No. All agreed.
Yeah. So during that period of just
growing up in Pentecostalism andthen growing up in the church,
it was really my life. Like I I just didn't understand
even what it meant to be gay. Like people ask me all the time
when did you know? And that's very hard to pinpoint

(07:17):
sometimes because, you know, I had thoughts, but in my mind it
was lust or some demonic like influence or something along
those lines. Like really to understand what
it meant to be gay as, as a as an orientation that did not come
until later. I just was too too isolated and
too secluded from any knowledge.That's that brings up a question

(07:39):
for me. Did you and you don't have to
answer if if you're uncomfortable with it, but did
you when you began to awaken to that that knowledge of yourself
and you were still in the church, Did you I guess I'm
reflecting back on them so many times that any hint of anything
sexual you were supposed to like, you know, come pray for

(08:01):
deliverance and ask to be set free from from, you know,
whether it was lust for for anyone or in any capacity.
Did that did you feel that like burden, so to speak of, I need
to be delivered from this? Like, was that in your awareness
in that construct? Oh, we could go down a really

(08:22):
big rabbit hole there. But just at the top I will tell
you masturbation was my shame. That was just my shame.
Like for years and years and years and years.
That was my shame. That makes sense.
Yeah. Very hyper focused on that, you
know, into teenage years. And so it's just that was it.

(08:43):
You weren't the only one, but. Yeah, yeah.
You become aware of that as adults, but at the time it's
like I'm the only one. Oh my God.
Right. No.
I had a friend who who used to tell me that they used to pray.
God, if you don't want me to do this, why do my hands reach?
Right. Now, so that's how I guess

(09:06):
isolated again to the bubble. I just didn't have anything
beyond that. I couldn't see it past that.
And then it wasn't until I guessI was 22 that there was an issue
with my parents. And I just remember being
accused of being gay at that point.
Everything up until that point had been purely like just
negative as far as, you know, being called a Sissy or you

(09:27):
know, the F word and all those things like that.
Just experienced that because ofyou know, I look back a video
yes, my mannerisms I gave off a gay vibe pillow.
So it's it's no wonder like I encountered that and I was
always trying to overcome that like even as an adult, trying to
be careful about how I speak, how I use my hands like I would
sit on my hands sometimes and sohonestly coming out it's been

(09:49):
kind of liberating in that sense.
I never have to think about thatanymore or care about it so.
No, and, and like, and I and I hope this comes across with the
love that I mean it to come across.
But you know, my husband has also known you since we were
teenagers. And when when we as adults found
out that you had come out and the path your life had taken, we

(10:12):
were both so happy. We're like yay.
Because that felt like even though you'd never expressed
that part of your identity to uswhen we were younger, it felt so
true, you know, just like knowing that for you that it
felt like, like watching someonebe free.
Do you know what I mean? And I.
Thought, yeah, I thought the same thing.

(10:34):
It was when I heard about, you know, you coming out, I was
like, man, I bet he is just so relieved and happy and can
finally be himself. I I couldn't be happier for you.
And, and I also, I think it's important to point out too, for
people that are listening, you know, we exist in a 2025 world,
which although it still has a lot of room to grow, it looks

(10:57):
very different. Even even in Christian spaces,
it looks very different than howit looked in the 80s and the
90s. And I know, you know, for myself
and we grew up in the same worldthere, we didn't know any gay
people. Let me rephrase that.
I am certain we knew gay people.We didn't know one who was

(11:20):
living their gay truth, right? And even I'm, I'm trying to
think like there weren't individuals at our church where
you could look up and say, oh, OK, that's, that's what that
pathway looks like. Or, you know, and it's not the
same thing, but in a similar vein, when I was separating from
my first husband and getting ready to go through the divorce

(11:40):
process, I didn't have anyone inmy family or my immediate church
circle or anything like that that had experienced a divorce
in that way. And it felt very like like being
thrown into a world with no map,no compass, no guidance, and
lots of judgement. So I can only fathom what that

(12:00):
felt like for you. But we're interrupting you and I
want to hear more about your story.
No, no, it's true because like you said earlier, I've heard you
talk about what was expected of you just being female in our
world and the roles that everyone take.
I felt that same pressure to be masculine, to act masculine, to
kind of fit in with a certain expectation.

(12:21):
And and you know, part of it wasgenuine in terms of my desire to
have a family, to have children.I mean, all those things were
were there for me, but I just also knew that I had a pretty
substantial issue going into that.
So that was difficult and it wasconfusing for me.
Again, you know, if you believe that sexuality is a spectrum,

(12:42):
like I had crushes on girls growing up, like that just
existed. So in terms of kind of dealing
with my own sexuality, I have tokind of process that and figure
out what does that mean, right. So because that existed, but my
first real gay experiences, like22, that's the first time I ever
hooked up. And then then it became really

(13:04):
about battling my sexuality around 22 or so.
Did your parents know? Did they?
And again, you don't have to answer, that's too personal.
But like, did they ever before that period or before that time?
Like, do you in hindsight have the feeling that they suspected
and we're trying to kind of steer you differently?

(13:27):
They've kind of said two different things on that, so I
don't know what's entirely true.Our environment is really good
about making up our own realities, ignoring right, and
living in some kind of fantasy. So we're all very proficient at
that in our little area of the world.
So. So it's hard to say.

(13:48):
I, I think they suspected they had to in some degree, but
again, they didn't think of it in terms of sexual orientation.
They thought of it as like some sort of spiritual temptation or
something. And just, it just was viewed so
differently. But so when I was 22, my first
experience, I, I remember vividly, like it was the first

(14:09):
time that I had allowed myself to even experience, you know,
same sex sexual experience. I don't know what else called
without using other words, but right.
I just remember thinking at the time afterwards, like, OK, was
that worth me throwing away all my family, all my friends,

(14:30):
throwing away God, throwing awaychurch?
And the answer was no, there wasno way I was in any place,
certainly not for sex. And that was, that was the
microscope that I guess, or the tunnel vision that I had, that
it was somehow about sex. And it wasn't until much later
in life that I realized, wow, this is really bigger than sex.
It's also about relationship connection, attraction,

(14:53):
attachment, like all those otherthings that go into a
relationship. But back then, everyone's just
so hyper focused on the sexual act itself, you know, You can't
see beyond that. Well, I think too.
I think there's such a link there with purity culture.
Like for myself even, I rememberI think I was 17 and my dad gave

(15:16):
me the purity ring. Like it felt like the entire
world was so hyper focused on the status of my virginity that,
you know, it becomes this, this huge part of what you think that
part of your identity is about. And then it's only kind of after

(15:38):
you experience that and you movethrough that and you're like,
OK, the sex is the least of it, right?
I mean, that's just the least ofit.
And I think that purity culture infiltrates in so many ways that
it builds sex so up into this kind of juggernaut for people in
that religious system that it pushes to the side all of the

(15:58):
other tangential things that really inform any conception of
sexuality, if that makes sense. So, but so, so this happened and
you were weighing this out and, and thinking, OK, if it's just
the sex, which is how you were perceiving at that time, that's
not something that's going to separate the balance of the rest

(16:18):
of your identity in that moment,right?
No, there was. It just didn't make sense.
And so from that point on that was kind of how I moved forward
and still would date. And so I guess from 22 to 27 is
ultimately when I had met my ex-wife, we dated but there was

(16:40):
a period. And I was just talking about
this in therapy today, so it's on my mind.
Yay for therapy, but. There was a period, yes.
I don't know how anyone surviveswithout therapy, but so there
was a period in our engagement after I'd asked her to marry me
that I knew I couldn't go forward with a marriage.
So I called it off. Like I said, I can't do it.
And so there was a six month period in there and and finally,

(17:03):
I mean, she just asked me point blank is because of your
sexuality. I said yes, since I was able to
really be transparent with her at the time, which of course
really self connected. I mean, that was a pretty big
part of me that I was able to share.
And it was, you know, but we both were Pentecostal.
We both thought, OK, well that'snot what God wants and so we

(17:24):
honestly eloped on that feeling and just got married.
So wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, so, so that was a weird
moment, but honestly, I, I at least feel good about myself
that I was able to come clean even before going into.
So that was helped. That had that had to be that had
to be scary to some degree, though.

(17:46):
Like to trust her with that, butthen I imagine like after
trusting her with that, maybe perhaps you feel like, OK, if
I've got to fit into this mold, at least I can fit into this
mold with somebody who knows where I'm coming from and who
accepts me. And you kind of felt that
reciprocity of trust there, perhaps?
You did. I mean, you feel closer.

(18:06):
What's so weird though, and I don't talk about this very much
because not many can relate, butbecause of us getting married,
it actually erupted because I had confided in that one other
person. And when I got married, it
actually triggered that person to tell a lot of people.
So I even after so I was gettingphone calls from people that,
you know, basically saying, Hey,I heard that you're gay and that

(18:30):
you've decided that you're goingto live.
Like people are calling me afterI got married to tell me that
that's what they heard. How how any of that did not get
back to my parents, I will neverknow because honestly, this is
the worst step secret at the time.
But I don't know how that happened, right?
Like, but you know, gossips, gossip.
So it happened, but I was like, well, no, that's not what

(18:54):
happened. Yes, I do have.
I can't remember what phrase I used back to the end, to be
honest. It wasn't that I was or anything
like that. But yes, I had experiences.
But I'm married now and along those lines.
And I just have to say to their having worked extensively in the
music side of Pentecostalism, there are so many musicians who

(19:21):
carry that as a banner of a testimony that, you know, I felt
this way or I had these feelings.
I had same sex attraction or I lived a gay life.
And then I met this person and they put it in the phrase of I
was delivered from that. And that just never sits right.
Like so I, I again, that's not my story.

(19:41):
So I don't want to, I don't wantto speak to those feelings, but
just as an observer, it's kind of like the people that at least
that I have known that were in that situation did not appear to
be free, right? They appeared to be performing a
life. Yeah.
And. There there's so many other
factors too. There's if you believe in
sexuality as a spectrum, people fall on different points of

(20:04):
that. There's bisexuality out there
that some could actually really be, you know, bisexual.
There's so many things, really, kind of.
I guess there's a lot of noise around that that it'd be hard to
pinpoint. But as far as in sort of
ministry that that that boasts of any sort of conversion
therapy, the big one at a 9% failure rate, like that's always

(20:28):
been 99% failure, like that's tremendous.
Yeah. But anyhow, just I guess kind of
going back, I was able to get married.
I have children and of course, you know, that was a big
important part of my life. However, sexuality was always an
issue to the point that I could not stay faithful.

(20:48):
And so so that triggered deliverance ministries.
I went through Celebrate Recovery multiple times like.
Yep, been there. So but that just was so again, I
get hyper focused again. So at that point going through
life, I was hyper focused on my sexuality, like how do I deal

(21:08):
with this issue that I have? And I looked under every rock
that I could. Is it, you know, spiritual?
Is it sex addiction, addiction? Is it, you know, some, you know,
because there's abuse in my background too.
Like I have to do another story on that.
So there's so many factors in trying to figure out how do I
move forward. And it was through more of a

(21:31):
deconstruction process religiously that I began to read
books like Brian McLaren and RobBell or Blue Like Jazz, I can't
remember the name of that author.
But there is just, I went very slow into any sort of
deconstruction because that is my nature.
I do not like risk. I'm very anxious.
Like if there's a chance that I'm going to burn in hell, I'm

(21:54):
going to take my time and make sure I'm not no.
But that that's let's go there for a minute because we were
raised, and I know we both were because we sat in the same, we
sat on the same cue. You know, we sat many times side
by side, write notes during church.
So we were raised like with the epitome of the Southern.

(22:15):
And just for our listeners, for context, we come from the
southern Pentecostal tradition. So add that on.
There fire. Hell fire Brimstone.
And it was like, it was this mindset of yes, God loves you,
but barely, and you better keep your crap together.
Or God is an angry and a jealousGod.

(22:35):
How many times did you hear thatright?
Right. But I was just explaining, my
son asked me today. We were talking about the
Antichrist and and he was what is that?
And I explained it to him and, and he was, I was like, dude,
this is what we learned every day.
The Antichrist is coming and we're all going to die.
So I don't know about you, Lance, but we've talked about

(22:56):
this on other podcasts. I would lay awake at night and
read books because we didn't have TD either, and I had a
record player. But I would lay at night, lay
awake at night and read a whole book until 3:00 in the morning
and pass out and be exhausted the next day because I couldn't
sleep. Because I was terrified.

(23:17):
Yeah, of hell. Now, the good part is, is when I
did go to high school and publicschool and they wanted to do
book reports, I'd already read everything.
But I was just terrified growingup, you know, that I was going
to hell, like you said. So.
Right. No.
And from the tradition that we come from, again, just by way of
background, you would hear the rhetoric of all sins are equal.

(23:39):
Like there's no sin, you know, sin is sin in the eyes of God.
But there was definitely a hierarchy of sin, and sexual sin
was one of the biggies, you know, And it was like, OK, well,
you know, the pastor may tell a lie or cheat on their taxes or
do this, that and the third. But sexual sin is a big one,

(24:00):
right? Well, I feel like they even
sexual sin as far as homosexuality was concerned,
that was not just a sin, that was a demon that you were
possessed or something. It's not just the sin of the
flesh, it's there's a demon has gotten into you.
Is that? Is that the way you guys
remember it? I'm interested to hear what
Lance. Has to say that we we had

(24:21):
another term that was just this side of possession, I think.
It's a question or something like being tormented.
You're being tormented by a homosexual spirit.
A. Spirit.
Yeah. Tormented by a spirit, right?
Yeah. Right where it's the devil is
trying to steal, you know, you as a Christian and they're
they're tempting you and they'retormenting you and that's kind

(24:43):
of like you're besetting sin or you know, as it were, right.
And again, that's your experience, not mine, but that's
what I remember kind of contextually.
And so I'm just curious, going back to when you started talking
about deconstructing, so were you still married at the time
that you begin deconstructing? What?
What led because I, I know for me and we've talked about this

(25:03):
on a previous show, what kind ofthose moments were for me?
There were a couple of really pivotal moments where I begin
and I didn't at first begin to question God, right?
The first thing I began to question was church and the way
that church was being organized and the way that those
principles were being outlaid and being taught to me.

(25:25):
And I'm curious for you if you can pinpoint like what were,
what were the kind of pivotal moments that led you to even
look into deconstructing or to find those books or resources?
The Internet somehow just havingaccess to other ways of thinking
that just didn't exist before until, what, the 90s?

(25:48):
I mean that just, yeah, that. Was it, well, I was going to ask
you going back to your education, did you go to a
college like a a regular collegeor was it a Christian college or
you never had that experience incollege or.
OK, that is another area where Ibegan to get exposed to, to
people really, because I did go to to a college and and I also,

(26:14):
you know, I've worked since I'vehad a job since I was 15, like
I've always worked. And so even the company I'm at
now, I started when I was 18. So that was my exposure.
But but it can, I always had thesensibility, I don't know, I'm
kind of sensitive guy, right? Always had the sensibility that

(26:36):
that people that I encountered that people might be gay.
It was is still even within the business world that I was in at
the time, it was still kind of harsh.
It was just kind of whispered about.
It wasn't promoted or celebrated.
I guess it's thrilling to work in any way.
It's something that we knew and my sensibilities was always

(26:57):
pretty considerate. I guess my my thinking was, oh,
well, if it's something that's wrong, that's something that God
can take care of. Not me.
Like I always kind of had that. Well, it's something that T and
I have talked about before as well is and, and this I have a
pretty heavy abuse background myself.
And I don't know if this is a function in part of the world in

(27:20):
which we grew up of kind of having such heavy doom and gloom
religious dogma from such a young age.
I don't know if it's that, if it's the abuse, if it's just my
own psyche or if everybody's like this.
I don't know, who knows one of the one of the many choices.
But dissociation has been such apart of my life from such an

(27:40):
early age that it wasn't until Istarted going through therapy in
my face and I wasn't even in the, I was going through therapy
with one of my children and hearing the therapist talk to
them about dissociation. I'm like, wait, wait, wait,
wait. Back the truck up.
That's my superpower. Like that's literally how I

(28:00):
survive life is. And I always thought about it
like that. Like I just have this switch in
my head where I can truly just, I don't want to say split like
personality or anything, but like I can just compartmentalize
so well that those two things don't talk to each other.
And it's like I in my head know these two different things

(28:21):
exist, but, and I'm having trouble articulating what I
mean. But like, and I talked about
this a little bit when I talked about my own deconstruction, I
was sitting here getting degreesin science and very much kind of
in that world of material materialism of study from a
philosophical perspective and, and looking at the world.

(28:42):
But I would hold my belief system over here.
But it was like at the same time, I'm going, OK, I really do
not believe the Earth is 6000 years old and that, you know,
the world was created and but that I don't have to rationalize
that because that's in my beliefsystem.
And I can put that over here in this compartment and not touch
that. And then over here have the part
of me that is rational, logical and scientific.

(29:05):
And I'm curious for you if you have found that dissociation has
played a part of your life like that and, you know, being able
to kind of bifurcate that identity.
And I do understand what you're saying, but it is something that
I'm still exploring, to be honest, in the sense of where
did that superpower that you described come from?
Because I was very immersed, just like you were maybe teen

(29:27):
out so much in terms of experiencing Pentecost tongues.
You know, all the things that went with that, like I was.
You know, we were in it. And I was in the deep end all
the time with that because I could pretty much I could
respond to the emotionality of all of it and all the energy and
all of those things. Like, I mean, I was right there.

(29:48):
You know, we went to the camp meetings, right?
And, and people were getting slain in the spirit and passed
out and being drunk in the spirit and like, and we
experienced that as teenagers, you know, and, and on.
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry to interrupt.
It started from me when I was 6,like, right, right, right.
I was crying in the altar tryingto speak in tongues.

(30:10):
And that was my focus for very early part of my life because I
knew if I didn't speak in tongues, I was going to hell
like that was. And that T goes back to your
conversation about PTSD. I've learned, at least for me, I
call it complex PTSD because it wasn't like a moment in time.
It was just this constant saturation of trauma really that

(30:36):
I experienced. So and then to ultimately I did
speak in tongues. And then what a relief, right?
Well, I remember the going dovetailing on what you said.
I would go when my parents were out of town and go in their
closet and smell their clothes, you know, because it they all
smelled like perfumer Cologne orwhatever, and just be terrified

(30:56):
that the rapture was going to come.
And I hadn't spoken in tongues. And and I had this dream of of
like, you know, I'm like, my momand dad are going to hold on to
me. They're going to take me, you
know, if I can't go. That's one of the, unfortunately
for me, one of the few memories I have of my childhood because a
lot of the other stuff I just don't remember.

(31:18):
I don't remember a lot of stuff growing up.
I do remember going to your church and you had a lot more
good looking girls there than wedid.
Amboys, amboys. Let's not forget those boys.
There was a couple of cuties there.
No comment. Or or to go back to speaking in
tongues. I find that interesting.
It's not surprising, given that Acts 238 was such a foundation.

(31:40):
I can still quote it to this day.
And it was such a foundational principle.
And that's really what we were taught was the distinction of
our branch of Christianity, right?
Was that, I mean, I remember being overtly taught that other
Protestant religions, they didn't have the real deal
because they were basically a paper tiger.

(32:03):
You know, they were powerless. They had a form of the gospel,
but not the power of the gospel that came from speaking in
tongues, being baptized in Jesusname and then the fruits of the
Spirit. And for me, I remember having
that experience. I think I was like 6 or 7, you
know, fairly young, which now asan adult makes my heart sad a
little bit for a little me, which that's a whole by the way,

(32:26):
I think what is her name? There's a singer.
I think her name is Maddie something, she used to be a
worship leader and she's now come out as gay.
And she has a song about lookingback at her childhood self that
just breaks my heart. I'll send it to you if I find
it. But but in that time, for me,
the experience was I would be inthe church and I would be so

(32:47):
consumed by the emotionalism of it, which if you haven't
experienced it, it's really hardto explain.
I think probably the closest thing, if anybody out there has
not experienced this, that that T and I talked about before is
like, it's kind of like when yougo to like to a concert and
everybody's like with their hands up in the air and they're

(33:08):
all singing. And it's like this moment you
feel your heart like with that rush of emotions and almost
tears in your eyes. Multiply that, you know,
exponentially. And then add in the fact that
church musicians are very skilled and adept at using music
as such an influence, influential part of emotional,
not to be harsh, but emotional manipulation, you know, and me

(33:31):
being a musical person, I remember having those moments of
just being so caught up. And then the minute it was over,
the minute the spell broke, so to speak, me sitting there and
going, did I just make that up? Did I just make myself do that
right? Like, OK, I I just spoke in
tongues, but am I? And then for me, the thing, the

(33:55):
fear was feeling like I'm blaspheming because maybe it
wasn't as authentic as it shouldhave been.
And I'm doctoring the experienceand God knows and I'm going to
get in trouble for that. Does that make sense?
Well, and if you if you take that apart and you unpack it,
kind of what we're all talking about in different ways is it's

(34:17):
this like woven in from the womb.
Need to question, is this real or is it memorex, right?
Like is this my reality or is this just am I on the outside
trying to perceive this as my reality?
Because I've been told that's what it's supposed to be.
And I think fundamentally, when you have that and then when you

(34:37):
couple in any type of other abuse besides the religious
trauma where you're kind of questioning what you're
experiencing through the lens ofreality, it really warps your
ability to trust yourself, right?
And when you can't trust yourself, then you can't
distinguish, is this my true feeling or am I being tempted,

(34:58):
right? Like, is this for me, it goes
down to, is this red flag my intuition?
Is this God speaking to me? Or is this my own fears and the
devil's trying to lead me away from something, right?
And so that whole milieu of justself questioning your own
perceptions and what reality is,I can't imagine then coupling

(35:20):
that you know, into your experience.
And so going back to your experience, because I want to
finish your story. You're a long time old.
No. So are we all.
It's a privilege. So.
So you're there, you're beginning the deconstructing
process. You've had a couple of
experiences. You're now married, and were
your children already here when you began kind of deconstructing
or? Because because like I said,

(35:43):
Pentecostal, like you're not in UPC, very involved.
I also managed like AFW church choir for UP2 back in the day,
wow, during this period. And so I grew up around a lot of
talented singers. Obviously the two of you,
everyone is so talented. I didn't really start singing
until I kind of started to migrate into more UPC and

(36:03):
getting involved in choir. And that was that was fun.
I loved it like that, you know, in terms of community and
belonging, getting to know otherpeople.
And kind of at the height of ourexperience for that was being
called by Kirk Franklin to, to participate in his Rebirth
recording. And so that was a lot of fun.

(36:24):
That was really a lot of fun. So that was kind of balled up in
my experience in Pentecost really at the time as well.
But I guess what even made me mention about speaking in
tongues is because you're talking about disassociation.
And that is something that I guess I'm still trying to
understand myself because I feellike we were trained to
disassociate. Like that was the goal of church

(36:46):
was to disassociate in a way. And that's why we're so good at
it. I think like we.
That's a good point. That's such a good point.
No, we, we were really trained like be in the world not of the
world, you know, be you shouldn't set your mind on
higher things and then you should always be costly.
That's a good point. We were trained in dissociation.
Yeah, it. Was the goal.

(37:07):
And I historically have always kind of thought, well, I think I
missed that experience because it was cathartic, you know, but
like I always put value on cathartic experiences and how
that kind of brought some sense of peace or whatever.
But if I'm starting to re question that and think of it in
terms of disassociation and thinking, OK, well, that really
hasn't helped me. And other ways, I think, And I

(37:29):
don't think I was exposed to as much science maybe as you have
been in your education process. Because I remember thinking,
honestly, watching the Cosmos byNeil deGrasse Tyson was the
first time that I started reallybeing exposed by any sort of
science. Or maybe there's maybe things
that we've described as spiritual and we tend to over
spiritualize everything in our upbringing.

(37:51):
Anything we don't understand is automatically over
spiritualized. But even the science was always
spiritualized. And so I began to think in terms
of, well, maybe there's more cosmic things happening in the
universe than I realized. And people have used spiritual
words to describe it. And so I began to question that.
And so I, I guess all of these things, you know, as you have

(38:14):
kids, I wanted them to go of a public school.
I didn't want them to do in private school because of my
experience. Yeah.
So it was, it was just kind of aslow burn that I began to to be
exposed to other ideas and otherscience and began to have a bit
more freedom to be more criticalthinking.
And then that just evolved. I remember the first thing, like

(38:36):
I guess the first thing that I remember letting go was belief
in the devil. Like at some point that's like
one of the first things is like,I don't think I believe in a
personified devil. I just don't believe that.
And I remember mentioning that to my ex-wife, and her automatic
response was what, you don't believe in the Bible?
That was her first. Response, right?
Because we were Pentecost and sothat was that.

(38:59):
One statement is one of the early memories that I have of
deconstructing something significant, I guess.
No, that's such a good point though, because, and it's
interesting you say that. I remember for me, there was a
podcast. Gosh, what was The Liturgist?
I don't know if you ever listened to The Liturgist.
And yeah, and I think one time they were perhaps they were

(39:21):
discussing Rob Bell's, but one of Rob Bell's books, I can't
remember, but it was about hell and and the devil.
And, and I remember for the first time, like isolating that
concept instead of kind of beingpart of, you know, the pantheon
of ideas, just really pulling that one thought and thinking
about a devil. And I told, I told T before, you

(39:45):
know, there were three questionsthat kind of really prompted me.
And that centered around that idea of why, Why a devil, right?
Because if God is all knowing, then God knew there would be a
temptation. And if God is all loving, then
how could God then allow, you know, XYZ to happen?

(40:06):
And it just really, really pulled a thread in the sweater
for me. And that was kind of my first
step too was OK, I still believe.
But I especially having been a parent, you know, I can't
imagine punishing my child for eternity for a temporal
transgression. Right.
And and so that's very interesting that that was your

(40:28):
kind of your first thread in thesweater as well.
And so go on from there. What happened next?
Well, parenthood does change your perspective too, I believe
because. Healthy parenting if.
I well, if I begin to think like, would I condemn my child
to some sort of eternal pain, judgment, torture, punt, you
know, the idea of hell. And I know in my heart I would

(40:50):
never do that. I know I cannot do that and and
so in some sense I'm saying I'm more loving than God is like.
Exactly. Yeah, right.
That's such a weird thing. Anyhow, so I guess the more I
read somewhere along the way, I believed it OK for other people
to be gay. But I was still, like I said,

(41:11):
going through Celebrate Recoveryand trying to figure out my my
own mind on the topic. And then finally in January of
2016, I remember driving to work, listening to Rob Bell
podcast, and finally I allowed myself, this is the
disassociation part. Like I allowed myself to
literally think without casting it away in my mind, what if I'm

(41:31):
just gay? But if it's just that and before
then, I could never really allowmy mind to even consider that.
I just would dismiss it. No, no, you know, you know, I
have family, have kids. I've got to have, you know, I
just can't and dismiss it, dismiss it, dismiss it.
But that day, for some reason, Ilet it in.
And then when I did, that was the dam that came breaking down

(41:54):
and there was no way to plug that back up.
I just cried and cried and criedand cried just from that one
thought because I just suddenly in that moment, I felt like it
really explained a lot of struggles that I've had.
And so that was probably Januaryand it was April before I could
tell my ex-wife at the time. But then, you know, then we I
didn't tell other people and probably till July that year, we

(42:17):
tried to figure out what we weregoing to do, but ultimately
divorced. And can I ask?
You a personal question on that and again, you don't have to
answer if it's too personal. I was just curious like
initially was her approach like no, you're not.
You're this is an act of the enemy.
This is the devil trying to break us up and break up our

(42:38):
family and we can get through this through spiritual tactics?
Or was she kind of like, OK, I hear you and I understand and I
don't like this for us, but thisis how it is?
She had a bit more practicality about her and I don't remember
that. I don't remember the over
spiritualization. That's good.
Yeah. But I do know what you're
talking about. I would have expected that too
of anyone that grew up in a cost.

(43:00):
Right, right. Yeah.
No, I just, and I asked because again, when I was leaving my
relationship, those were some ofthe things that were hurled at
me As you are being deceived. This is the devil.
The devil is trying to destroy, kill, steal and destroy and
split up your home and your marriage and you know you need

(43:21):
to go. And for those who don't know,
when we're referencing CelebrateRecovery, that is the Christian
equivalent of like 12 step. It is a 12 step program.
And although most of them are based in faith, this one is
based overtly kind of ProtestantChristianity ideas and practices
and is heavily practiced now through especially through the
mega church explosion and kind of charismatic evangelicism in

(43:44):
that world. So you told your wife and how
did that feel for you? Well, that was rough.
Yeah, I bet that was rough. But what I do remember is that
there was peace that went along with it.
At night. It's like it's out in the open,
you know? It's something that we can
actually deal with instead of trying to always deal with it
internally. At least now we could actually

(44:05):
respond to it externally and tryto figure out life at that
point. And so there is a certain amount
of relief that goes with that. But you know.
But then there's parents. And did they know at this point?
They didn't know. We wouldn't tell anyone until we
could tell the kids. That was our that was our role.
We didn't tell the kids till July.

(44:26):
And then once we told the kids, then we could tell other people.
So we held on to it for a while.And then my parents, OK, so I
wrote a letter because I knew itwasn't going to be much of a
conversation. And I just had a print out of
it. And I had the conversation with
my dad face to face, but it was short.
And I just gave him the letter to take with him because that
was pretty much all we could do.And then mom, my mother had to

(44:47):
find out secondhand from that. And then that just was slowly
the, the process, you know, but it wasn't just I'm coming out,
but I'm gay, but it's also we'regetting divorced.
And like, it was kind of the whole package of everything all
at once. I remember having coffee with my
dad after that to kind of still process a little bit.

(45:07):
And one of the first questions he asked me was, do you still
speak in tongues like. Wow, No, there's so much there,
though, because like the implications, right.
The implications of that, yes. Because is, is God still, you

(45:28):
know, are you still open to that?
Are you still in touch with thisbear?
Are you still able to to kind ofmake that connection
spiritually? Wow, That's very interesting.
And it's such a as such a symbolof salvation.
Yeah, you know, interesting. So I at least was able to
confirm yes, at the time. So I think that helped.

(45:52):
But from that point on, I mean it honestly, I've had to grieve
so many things. Like I'm still dealing with the
grief of all of it. The grief of is the grief of
dreams, the grief of friends that I had because I lost a lot
of friends, you know, during that time I've lost family
connections. You know, there's a lot of loss
that goes along with coming out You can yourself, but you lose a

(46:15):
lot of other people. Wow, which is you know, which is
interesting when you said that it brought to mind the
scripture. You know what profits a man if
they gain the whole world and lose their soul?
And the irony that you really found your soul in coming to the
truth of expressing who you are and how you how you are in the

(46:37):
world. You know, that's that's very
interesting. Were you after you came out to
your wife and your parents, wereyou still attending church with
the same church and everything? And how was that experience if
so? OK, I did have a few progressive
friends at the time, so while I had lost a lot of friends, there

(46:58):
were some folks in my life that were very supportive.
I don't think I could have made it without them, to be honest.
Like, that was a huge, huge win and, and it was.
You know who your real friends are, then, when you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do.
You too. So at that point, I'm, I'm no
longer in Pentecostal churches. I'm, I'm more evangelical, OK at

(47:20):
that, at that point. And there was even an
opportunity for me to go. And actually my friends that I'm
even referring to have since split off and created their own
church that's LGBT affirming that's kind of just triggered
through all of this. So they just kind of grew along
during my whole coming out experience and created safe

(47:41):
spaces for me. And because spirituality was
important to me, I was doing like a small group to reconcile
spirituality and sexuality. And so that actually even kind
of grew and helped me make more connections to other folks.
Well, you're. You're coming out is actually
like I was thinking, it's been like a small Pebble thrown in a
pond. It's made big ripples going out.

(48:03):
And actually, you coming out hasprobably brought more LGBTQ
people into the church, ironically enough.
Well, and I mean, just to share with you, you know, I have AI
have a someone in my life who identifies as as gay.
And I remember when they came tome with that reaching out to you

(48:25):
and being like, how do I supportthem?
How what I need to know from you?
Like what do they need from me right now?
You know, and you were such a resource and, and helping me try
to become an ally at that time, which I'm very grateful for.
But I'm, I'm curious at this time when you were coming out
and you were coming to acceptance of yourself.

(48:47):
And I, I hear you so deeply on the grief.
Again, different stories. But like for me, losing, losing
the music there, it's just, and if you've ever been to a
Pentecostal church, you know, the music is one of the best
parts. And for me as a musician, and
having been so ingrained in thatworld since before I was born,

(49:08):
like literally growing in my mother's womb while she was
playing the organ and singing three times a week, that's I
always say music is my first language.
And so it felt very much like leaving my home country, you
know, And there's even, there's a shorthand of language that you
use among church folks, you know, and somebody's like, God

(49:29):
is good and you know what to sayall the time, right?
And there's just, there's such abelonging and a culture within
itself that when you walk away from that, it's almost a feeling
of nobody is ever going to fullyunderstand the fullness of who I
am from this stage forward, because they're not going to

(49:50):
understand that part of me whereI came from.
And I can't go back to where I came from with the people that
knew me then because they don't understand the person I am now.
And it's, it's really a point ofisolation.
And I'm curious for you when youwere in that stage of the
process where like, you know, you've told your wife, you've
told your kids, you've told youryour parents, and you know,

(50:12):
you're kind of navigating the waters of who are my friends now
and, and where is my place, thatpart of your yourself and God?
Like, did you feel like, OK, I can be who I am and still keep
my relationship or my conceptionof God in relation to me in that
sense? Do you know what I'm saying?
Or do you feel like if I embracethis part of myself, I'm going

(50:34):
to have to let that go? No, I was not letting it go, but
definitely not. However, I had the opportunity
because of, like I said, my friends that were more
progressive were actually at that time starting a satellite
campus. And so I went with them, but we
were still following the rules of the mothership, so to speak.

(50:56):
I mean, because I had come out, I was no longer allowed to sing.
I was no longer allowed to be onstage.
There was specific, I was not allowed to teach Sunday school
any longer, but I could be a greeter.
So, so I was allowed to greet people and hold the door.
So that's what I did because I wasn't going to leave, which at

(51:19):
the time felt good. I don't know why, but in
retrospect it's like, well that's shitty.
Right, right. We'll take your money and let
you do all the grunt work, but stay out of the mic.
You can be in the room, but you can't sit at the table.
Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you.
I hear you with that. And honestly, in some ways that

(51:41):
I do think that was a catalyst for, for my supportive group of
friends to really break off, youknow, following all that so that
they could be fully LGBT affirming and be their authentic
selves, not have this conflict of values that they were having
to adhere to because they were part of this large, larger
organization. So that was freedom for them.

(52:01):
And I'm very grateful for them, you know, sacrificing their own
connections and their own familyand their own loss that they've
experienced. But I held on and did what I
could just so that I could be there and still have the
connection of belonging, but also my spirituality.

(52:24):
But even now when I look back, Ido believe that the weight is on
community and connections. What we received that from
church, the way that we were brought up like that's and it
was always so intimate, maybe toa level of enmeshment.
And that's another time's up that I have to figure out

(52:44):
because we were very boundary less through everything growing
up. And now here I am, trying to, in
my 50s, try to learn how to set healthy boundaries.
That's. Now I, I have to, you'll
appreciate this. I did this.
There's this little trend right now on social media where you
say phrases that you were told as a child, but you let your,

(53:04):
your own child finish them. And like, for example, one of
them is children should be seen.And you know, and we all know
what we would say not heard, right.
So I was playing that game with my, my youngest today.
She's 8. And the last one was respect
your and you know what we would say to that?
Respect your elders. Elders.
Right. And so I said, okay, what would

(53:26):
you say if mommy said respect your and she said boundaries?
And I'm like, yes. Wow, winning.
That's amazing, yeah. Yeah.
So we're getting there. We're all getting there.
But I hear you. The boundaries journey is when
you're not taught that you are an entity of your own, when
you're not ever given any practice at making decisions,

(53:49):
when no is a word you're not allowed to say.
And when you are in a place where even if you do have a no,
it can then be manipulated from a spiritual perspective of,
well, what would you know? That's not the right thing or
that's not the best thing. You truly have no concept of
boundaries. And I remember even in my 30s,

(54:10):
like hearing about boundaries and I'm like, I, I could not
conceive of how to make that applicable in my daily life at
all. And then I thought, well,
boundaries are rules of what I will allow other people to do.
Now I'm finally understanding, no, has nothing to do with other
people. Boundaries mean this is this is
where I set my guidelines. You can do whatever you choose

(54:34):
to do and and that's fine, but Ichoose not to engage with that
behavior, right? And that's a whole journey.
So kudos to you for for practicing that.
But yeah, we were not raised with any any conception of
boundaries or even personal identity.
No, no, all foreign, but we're learning.

(54:55):
We're getting there. Yeah.
And so Fast forward to 2020, I remarried.
So my husband and I are coming up on five years this year.
Congratulations. Thank you.
He's a handsome fella too. You got a good one.
I guess he's highly intelligent,so smart it blows my mind
sometimes. So he's just been a huge support

(55:19):
to me. A lot of how I grew up is very
foreign to him, but he's always been very compassionate and
patient. Really.
There's a lot of patience there,so I'm very fortunate to have
asked him in my life. Was he raised in the church?
He was, so that's the other thing.
He's black, so I'm in an interracial relationship.
There's a lot of differences between black Christians and

(55:41):
white Christians. So black folks know what it is
to be oppressed and discriminated.
So there's a lot more understanding on that side than
what we have in the predominantly white churches,
so. That's interesting because I
think white Christianity, and especially right now, my God,
it's having such a media moment of demonstrating the persecution

(56:02):
complex. And let me just say for all
those listening, white Christians in America are not
persecuted, OK? They've never been persecuted
and the persecution complex is ascheme.
It's it's a, it's a falsehood. And so it's really interesting
how much that's being played upon it.
But then to hear that, you know,coming from the perspective of

(56:25):
black Christianity where there is a true history of oppression,
that they were actually far moreaccepting and open minded.
Yes, I mean, obviously there's pockets, you know, throughout,
but but I think I think it's a safe generalization that there's
a lot more understanding there. So yeah, that's been interesting
for me to watch and be jealous of in some ways.

(56:48):
How does your family have they met your husband?
How do they feel that your mom and dad?
Are they OK with that or do you guys still get along and talk as
I to be for? I'm upfront with you.
I haven't talked to my parents in a few years.
So there were there was a conversation I had with my dad

(57:09):
that was just an ender and I'm like, I can't.
I had to set my boundaries and unfortunately I I'm either all
in or all out. That's not a bad way to be.
In some ways, I'm envious of that.
Me too. In some ways, you probably saved
yourself a lot of heartache. But I did try to keep the door

(57:32):
open for as long as I could. There were some lines that were
crossed. And so at this point, we're
cordial. For probably the last 2 1/2
years, we are cordial. You know, the kids still have
games and performances and band and all kinds of things.
And so we're often together there.
And I mean, we're always going to be polite and respectful.
I have no problem. You know, those are values that

(57:52):
are important to me and that I want the kids to understand.
And they know, they know that there's issues around me being
gay that really haven't allowed us to have a close relationship.
And I always remind the kids, I said, but that doesn't matter.
You know, we're always going to be respectful and just say hello
and polite and show everyone, you know, basic dignity always.
And so. That's.

(58:14):
Interesting too, because you you're an only child and I
remember talking about jealousy,not being jealous that you're an
only child. Sorry to oh flyer, no.
Right. That's where I thought she's
going. I remember observing, you know,
because my own familial relationships were a whole

(58:36):
nother bag of tricks. But I remember observing you and
your family and thinking, wow, like wow, and this is going to
sound harsh and I don't mean it harsh, but it's like, wow,
That's what it's like to like beloved so overly and like be
doted on. And I mean, because you I just

(58:58):
remember you were the apple of your parents eye.
And I remember, like, you and your mom being so close that you
were like friends, you know, I was going.
To say I was surprised that you,you talked to your dad first, I
would have assumed just, you know, the little bit, I, I, I
knew you when we were young, that you would have talked to
your mom first 'cause you guys seem so close, you know?

(59:20):
I can imagine why I can. My dad's just more like that.
Yeah, why? Your dad.
'S really like even keeled. He's even keeled.
You wouldn't want to meet him ina dark alley, but he's a big
dude is what I mean, you know? But he's, yeah, he's, he's
really kill. He's he's pretty laid back until

(59:44):
he explodes. That does happen, but pretty
rare. And he's so more consistent.
Let me put it that way. My mom was always more volatile,
so I was always got you of reactions I just could not
predict. My dad's a bit more predictable,
so that felt safer. That makes sense.
Yeah, so I know I miss my parents.

(01:00:10):
You know what I miss, I miss my parents, but I miss the idea
that I had in my head that when I had kids, they would be these
great grandparents, you know, and I just can't trust my kids
to go with my parents in the indoctrination that would
follow. And if that makes me sad, I
wanted, you know, the, the Leaveit to Beaver, you know, sort of

(01:00:34):
thing, or just a grandma that would come and take my kids and
take him to do stuff, take him to the Legoland or whatever.
But. I want anybody to take my kids.
Anybody. Yeah, right.
Just kidding. When when my oldest son was born
or when my wife was pregnant with my oldest son, my wife and
I were married legally, but we hadn't had a church wedding and

(01:00:59):
we hadn't told her my parents that we were married because it
didn't want to go mess with all that.
But when we told, and I told them that we were going to have
our son, they told me that he was going to go to hell because
we had him out of wedlock. So no matter what happened, our
son was going to hell. So that was just kind of my

(01:01:21):
experience in my first experience of this great moment.
I'm having a kid, I'm excited, I'm scared to death.
I'm 25 years old. I'm tripping out.
I have no idea what I'm going todo with my life.
That was the response I got and every kind of big moment in my
life, my wedding, everything like that.
The responses were not what I would have wanted and not what I

(01:01:42):
expected and not what my parentsweren't the people I thought
they were. And it, it just, that's what
breaks my heart, I think even more than my relationship with
them, because that was never that great.
Well, but it goes back to that grieving and I've had a I've had
a lot of things to grieve in my life.
You know, even with the passing of my first husband and the

(01:02:04):
dissolution of our marriage, I remember one time in therapy,
you know, having a hard time articulating those feelings.
And the therapist kind of gave me the language by saying you're
grieving the loss of the dream that you held, you know, and
there's such validity to that. And I think that, you know,

(01:02:24):
often times one of the beautifulthings about about growing up
and becoming a parent and then our parents becoming
grandparents is that, you know, it's the old trope of, oh, why
weren't you like this with me? You know, you're a much better
grandpa than you were a dad or whatever.
And when there's something in the equation, and this is kind
of how I look at it, right? And, and I'm interested to hear

(01:02:47):
your perspectives from my observation, when there's
something in a relationship equation that becomes the other
thing, whether that's an addiction, whether that's
religious beliefs, whether that's political beliefs, when
there's something else there, itkind of becomes like the third
party in the relationship. And so then the relationship is

(01:03:08):
not, it's like trying to have a relationship with somebody who's
got a mistress. Do you know what I mean?
Like that thing always comes first.
It always interjects in between.It always divides the
authenticity of the connection. And in my family, you know,
that's been substance abuse and also religion.
And it, and it's very much been this kind of thing of like, if

(01:03:31):
it wasn't for religion, yes, we'd still have, you know,
boomer parents that don't understand boundaries and you
know, this, that and the third, but there would be less of that.
Like you're over there. I'm over here.
Does that make sense to you, or do you perceive it in that way?
I totally do. Does that make?
Sense interesting thoughts. So so then you go from there and

(01:03:54):
you're working out your peace with your parents.
And I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking, where has this
journey taken you in your faith at present?
OK, honestly. So one thing like honestly, it
affected me just to hear you talk about what was said to him,
that just is horrible to me. And I'm so sorry that that

(01:04:14):
happened. That's just mind blowing to me.
Another level. So so I hope you feel validated
in that. And I just and totally
understand you have to take whatever survival measures you
have for yourself or your family, for your kids.
I get that. So.
I appreciate. That yeah, my faith, honestly.

(01:04:36):
But post COVID, we haven't attempted to try to find any
sort of church community since COVID.
So in the process of that, we'velooked elsewhere for community.
Most recently in the last year, I've joined a community choir
that practices at University of Texas Dallas.
And so that's kind of my attemptto reengage singing again, which

(01:04:58):
by the way, has scientific merit, by the way, in terms of
the vagus nerve and depression and all.
Like there's so many things there that I felt like I was
missing. I think I have spent more time
and focus less on the spirituality of myself and focus
more on mental health. I just don't have the energy to.

(01:05:18):
I haven't necessarily discarded some of the ways of wisdom that
I think exists in Christianity, but I went through a period of
reverse engineering everything. Meaning I know it's good to love
people and I and I need to kind of reverse and come up with
another way of articulating scriptures in a way that

(01:05:38):
supports what I know to be right.
So instead of, and at some pointI kind of got tired of reverse
engineering and a buddy of mine said it kind of the best.
Like he just don't care. He's like, I do not care that
your book tells you to be shittyto people.
I do not care. Your book is stupid.
If that's really your your basis, then your book is stupid.
No, that's, that's so true. And like one of the things that

(01:06:00):
I say frequently on here is a huge eye opener for me was
meeting the best Christians I'd ever met.
And they were people who did notcall themselves Christians and
said the same thing. You know, there may be good
stuff in there, but there's stuff in there that that is
encouraging you to be a very badperson.

(01:06:21):
And that was mind blowing. So yeah, I hear you on that.
So I have looked for other avenues, especially where my
children are concerned, to be more inclusive of all religions
and what we all have in common and to call them the books of
wisdom. Like this is just wisdom that's
been passed down and share concepts of Buddhism and

(01:06:44):
concepts of Christianity and concepts of Islam.
And like just anything that I can to say, here are some common
themes. And we know that these are good
principles because we want to beloving people, we want to be
caring people, we want to be respectful people.
We want and really approach it. And honestly this has been a big
influence my husband because I grew up very roles based.

(01:07:06):
Right. And have no concept of
principles or values. And so to be able to kind of
flip that around and really focus the last five years on
what are our values for our homegoing to be with the kids, with
my kids, his step kids, what arewe going to build?

(01:07:27):
What are the important values that we want to focus on?
And yes, I can take all those concepts in reverse engineering
and come up with scriptures and lessons and things to support
that. I don't necessarily feel the
need to do that anymore. I just don't feel like I have to
do that. You know, when I was in college,
I took a English class and the professor taught the Bible as

(01:07:49):
literature, not as any kind of holy scripture or anything like
that. And it was one of the best.
I guess that's really what started my quote UN quote
deconstruction was that class what he just taught.
It is literature. It made so much more sense to
me. You know, the not looking at it
as religion and looking at it just as Beowulf, right?

(01:08:15):
And, and when you look at it like that and you don't have
that amble hanging over your head of blasphemy for
questioning things or looking atit in that way, it makes it's a
lot easier to have a different perspective of it, I guess, is
what I'm trying to say. Once.
You have to take some of the good from it when you see it
that way. Yeah, exactly.
Realize that you don't have to take the bad from it.

(01:08:37):
But, but I want to go back really, really quickly and I
know we're, we're running long, but I wanted to touch on
something you said because I feel like it's really powerful.
The difference between rules versus values.
That is so huge, right? And it's like, you know, if you
kind of put a practicality on it, it's like the difference

(01:08:57):
between I want my children to have the tools to be able to
make positive, healthy through it wise decisions.
I would much rather them have tokind of grapple with that and
find that tool kit than to just know mom said, don't go to this
store after 9:00. Mom said, don't drink this

(01:09:18):
thing, right? Because mom's not always going
to be there. And, and my concept of parenting
is my job as a parent is to workmyself out of a job, right?
Like when my kids, my older 2, went off to college and I had
family, you know, ask me, Oh, are you sad?
Do you feel emptiness? I'm like, no, I raised them to
have a life. This is this is the point,
right, is to raise them to, to be able to have those skills

(01:09:42):
and, and tools and do things. But the way that we were raised
was not that way. And this for me was such a point
of confusion as a child. I was and the way you
articulated it just really flipped a switch in my head.
I was looking for kind of the ground rules of values and we
weren't given that. What we were given was really a

(01:10:04):
rule with a referential value attached, right?
But didn't it didn't ever. It wasn't a broad enough stroke
because it's like, well, why is this OK in this situation but
not in this situation? Like why is it not OK to go
bowling, but it's OK to go roller skating, right?
What's the underlying value attachment there that's

(01:10:25):
validating this rule? And that's so interesting to
hear kind of how you flip that on its head and said, no, we're
not. We're not going to kind of go
from the top down. We're going to go from the
bottom up and build a foundationwhere we first identify our core
values and then the rules, as itwere, kind of flow out of those
value systems in a way that is logical and makes sense and and

(01:10:50):
it's true. And you don't have to then sit
there and literally sweat the small stuff of my going to hell
if I wear these two different colored socks, right, Because
it's not about the rule. It's about ironically Christian
speak. You could say it's not about the
rules, it's about the relationship.
Hang on a second. Sorry, you're gonna have to edit
that out. However, I I've not seen that to

(01:11:12):
really play out that that tends to be kind of the the Band-Aid
of Christians speak, but it still winds up being about the
rules. Yeah.
So that's really interesting to hear your perspective.
It's not only the rules, it's the if you don't follow the
rules, you're going to go to hell.
And how many people their valuesare based on fear and fear of

(01:11:34):
going to hell and not really based on them wanting to be a
good person or. Well, no, but it's like, it's
like the analogy of I'm not, I don't withhold, uphold the vows
of my marriage because I'm afraid the marriage police are
going to come clock me. You know, if I wink at a cute
guy running by or whatever. I uphold my, my marital values

(01:11:56):
because I love my partner. I respect them.
You know, I, I want to to be behave in a way that's honorable
of the love and the commitment that we share.
And, and that's what governs my behavior.
I totally agree with where you're coming from.
And to that point, I have one more question for you.
Where do you stand now with the concept of hell and how were you

(01:12:21):
able to make peace with that? Because I think that's where a
lot of us really, we really do struggle.
And I think that's a place whereour intellect tries to override
like our inner child fears. But when those are so heavily
programmed in throughout your entire childhood, informative
years, and even adulthood, what piece have you found with Hell

(01:12:43):
that makes sense? It took a long time.
I mean, I had to read the books that exposed me to other ways of
thinking, the new kind of Christian, new kind of
Christianity, like all those things to the point that I have
let all of those concepts go in the traditional sense.
Like, I don't believe in terms of the heavily what Greek Roman
influence of a Zeus like God that sits on high with

(01:13:07):
thunderbolts and a concept of Hades and punishment and, you
know, a demon that's really justtrying to get your soul the
exposure to like I said, the cosmos and, and realizing or, I
don't know, just looking at the trend, right, of, of how people
were afraid to admit that the earth revolved around the sun

(01:13:31):
or, you know, just, and I just feel like we have those same
level of ignorance now, just in a different way.
So I just, I just, I've kind of abandoned those traditional ways
of thinking about hell, God, andI've just kind of played a bit
more in the universe. I tend to use more cosmic
language now. But I do believe in connection.

(01:13:53):
I believe there's ways for us tohave connection.
I can't explain it right. You know, I would have used
spirituality as a term that thatconnects us.
So I don't know, I'm probably still in the throes of trying to
figure out what the right semantics are to explain what I
believe. But I have shifted more to a
desire to learn more about science and shy away from the

(01:14:17):
fear of the unknown and and the temptation to over spiritualize
things I don't understand. Wow, that's a big one.
That's a big one. And we will have another show
where we talk about the impact of over spiritualization and the
development of magical thinking OCD, which is a whole whole
nother train of thought. But no, I, I think that's wise.

(01:14:41):
And that kind of reminds me of where I am in my own, in my own
journey. When people say, you know, where
are you with this? I'm like, here's where I am with
that. I leave space for the unknown.
But I don't build my life on guesses, you know, but I, I
leave space for for the awe. I leave space for the, the

(01:15:04):
mystery, the wonder. We don't know what we don't
know. But what I do know is that if
there is something existentiallymagical and wonderful and, and
the other, you know, threads that weave us all together, that
is the connecting fiber that we kind of can't explain.
I don't think that something that grand and marvelous and

(01:15:27):
magnificent is really caught up in the minutiae of the ways that
we have developed to manipulate that to control each other.
So. Well, and the other thing about
deconstruction is at some point you have to begin constructing
again. And for us it has been about
really trying to start with the values 1st and, and moving up

(01:15:52):
from there. Because when you do that, you
can also incorporate new information, like if, if more
science comes out and they can explain more about homosexuality
and how the brain works. And I mean, there's all kinds of
room for new information, but ifwe've started with fundamental
values of respect and love and caring, I mean, you have room

(01:16:14):
for all those things. It doesn't work the other way
so. Wow, right.
That's so impactful that. Makes a lot, a lot of sense on a
lot of levels. No, that's such a great point
though, and one that I think that, you know, I honestly had
not conceived of it in that way.So you just said that.
But at a certain point of deconstruction, yeah, you have

(01:16:36):
to. It's kind of like, you know, if
you're if you're remodeling a house, right, you can take out
walls, take out flooring, do allthe things, you can even go down
to the foundation. But essentially, at some point,
you look around and you say, OK,what things that I've taken
apart here are things that are worthy and good and will stand

(01:16:58):
the test of time and reflect whoI am that I want to
reincorporate back into my life.And then leaving space, leaving
space for that unknown, leaving space for the things that you
haven't yet brought into your life and looking at that with
fresh eyes. And you know, I think that's a

(01:17:18):
beautiful thing about this journey, although it's been
painful for so many of us, is having the opportunity to really
unpack that. And then as adults, looking back
at our life and saying, how am Igoing to choose to recreate a
world for myself? And I think that what you're
doing and come from a place of those values that you're you're

(01:17:40):
truly rooted in. Not only is it beautiful, but if
there is something out there that's higher and wiser and
greater than us, I think that's honestly the most honoring thing
that you can do. So well done you.
Thank you. I.
Had a lot of help. Don't we all, we all and

(01:18:00):
honestly, I'd love to have you back.
I know we've probably gone over your time and thank you for
sharing your time with us, but I'd really love to have you back
and, you know, maybe join in ourdiscussion on politics and
families and kind of what that looks like.
And I know each of us have a parent that has kind of gone to
certain extremes with that in voicing that in the other

(01:18:23):
direction. So maybe that's a conversation
we can pick up again a second time.
But it's been great to hear yourstory and to reconnect with you.
And I really appreciate your vulnerability and sharing with
us. And just as we wrap up, I'd ask
you, is there anything, not to sound cheesy, but you know,

(01:18:45):
especially with it being pride and in the environment where
we're living at present and all the vitriol that's kind of out
there. What would you say to someone
who is maybe perhaps questioningtheir identity or questioning
their sexuality? Or is the wondering how to have
that that conversation with parents, especially your family

(01:19:06):
or spouse or partner who's really involved in, in the
religious world that we come from?
What words would you say to thatperson right now?
There's nothing wrong with waiting until you feel
absolutely safe sharing and being that vulnerable and really
look for those people, those spaces that you do feel safe and

(01:19:29):
and really engage in those areas.
Safety first around physical safety, mental safety.
Like all those. Financial safety.
Financial safety, absolutely. So there's nothing wrong with
that. But you know, fortunately and at
this time, I think there are plenty of spaces, like with the
Internet, define areas. There's all kinds of resources.

(01:19:49):
PFLAG was one of mine. That was just so huge benefit to
me. So look for those areas to be
authentic and and then go from there.
And you know, there's no rush. There's no rush.
So that's, that's really I guessthe top of mind thing that I
would say, yeah. It's like, there's a great quote
by Emily Dickinson, and I'm probably going to butcher it,

(01:20:11):
but it says something to the effect of I think it's by Emily
Dickinson. Maybe I'm wrong.
Whoever it's by, it's a great quote and essentially it says
it's never too late to become who you might have been.
Yeah. Hey Lance, I want to recommend a
book to you. IA few years ago was going
through some issues and I met this Episcopal priest who was

(01:20:36):
not a priest anymore. He he had left the religion, but
he gave me a book and it's called Lamb, the Gospel
according to Biff, Christ childhood pal.
And it's it's. Intriguing title, by the way.
It's, it's, it's totally fiction, but it's a total
perspective of Jesus's cousin who grew up with Jesus.

(01:20:58):
And it's really funny. Just one of the snippets.
Jesus is killing this lizard andit keeps coming back.
He keeps freeing it back to lifeand killing it and bringing it
back to life when he's a little kid.
It's so funny. It's such a funny perspective
on, on the Bible. So I, I mean, it's not going to
make you, it's not going to makeyou think or anything, but it's
really. Funny, I love it here in my

(01:21:21):
life. You can only read so many heavy
things for so long. Laughter is feeling and two, I
would just say, say to anybody that's out there that's, you
know, perhaps dealing with thesechallenges right now and
wondering how to handle that. Leave room for laughter, leave
room for joy. Make space in your life for the
things that fill your cup. And especially if you are in an

(01:21:42):
environment where you don't havea lot of support there.
There is a tomorrow right there is there is another side of and
you can build the life that you need where you do feel safe in
every way. And I just encourage everyone
who's in that moment, you know it's OK to be exactly who you

(01:22:06):
are. You are beautiful and you are
exactly who you're meant to be. Great.
Amen. Thank you guys for listening and
we're going to be back in hopefully next week if Jay
doesn't go lick telephone poles and get sick again.
Don't mock me, I have issues. Lance, we'd love to have you on

(01:22:28):
again just as soon as we can, for sure.
But I do want to thank you both for creating this space because
there is just something about hearing your experience and
knowing how much I can relate toit.
It it makes me not feel alone and I I love hearing.
So thank you for sharing your stories and creating this for

(01:22:48):
us. Oh, thank you.
It's it's a huge benefit to folks like me that have that
shared experience with you. So thank you.
Thank you and same here. Thank you.
We are survivors and we have to stick together.
So absolutely. That's awesome.
Thank you, Lance. It's been great you.
Too. Right on.
Love you both, thank you. Me too.

(01:23:10):
Love you. Bye bye.