S1E5 Families Divided

In this one, we dive into how political polarization—especially the rise of MAGA ideology—has created rifts in families across the U.S., and how it's become closely tied with modern evangelical culture. We share stories of strained relationships, lost connections, and the emotional cost of navigating belief systems that collide at the dinner table

🌐 Resources:

⁠Adult Children of Alcoholics⁠ – for support, healing, and recovery

⁠Freedom From Religion ⁠

⁠⁠#BacksliderDiaries ⁠⁠⁠⁠#ChurchAbuse⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#ReligiousTrauma⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#Exvangelical⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#SpiritualAbuse⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#Deconstruction⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#FaithHealing⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#PurityCulture⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#AdultChildrenOfAbuse⁠⁠⁠⁠ #LeavingChurch⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#ExFundie⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#ToxicFaith⁠⁠ ⁠⁠#ReligiousDeconstruction ⁠⁠⁠⁠#RecoveringFromReligion ⁠⁠⁠⁠#FaithShouldntHurt ⁠⁠#ChurchHurt

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to The Backslider Diaries, the podcast for the
faithful, the frustrated, and everyone caught somewhere
between a pulpit and a panic attack.
I'm Tim. I'm Jay.
And I'm Lance. In this episode, we're talking
about the Great Divide, how the rise of mega and hardline
evangelicism didn't just change churches, it tore families

(00:20):
apart. We're glad to have Lance here
with us again, offering his unique viewpoints into the
evangelical experience. So glad to have you, Lance.
Thank you for having me back, always good to be here.
And today we want to talk a little bit about the history of
the marriage, the evil marriage between evangelical Christianity

(00:41):
and politics, and then explore what many of us are probably
living with in our day-to-day life, which is how to walk the
fine line between maintaining family relationships,
maintaining boundaries, and yet not violating our own values or
ethics in the process. And that, my friends, is a
sticky wicket. Would you guys agree?

(01:01):
Totally, because a lot of the things that we were taught
growing up, which are, are values that I think we all still
hold dear, our parents have seemed to turn totally away from
that. And like that doesn't matter.
Just on a very, very, I mean minor level sore loser.
I was always taught not to be a sore loser.
When you lost the baseball game or you won the baseball game,

(01:24):
you went out and you shook handswith everybody afterwards.
You are a gracious winner and you were a gracious loser.
And that all seemed to go out the window when it seems like if
they don't get their way, then rules don't apply.
You know? So that hypocrisy is just one of
the things that drove me away and kind of opened my eyes.
But I really always thought thatmy parents believed in those

(01:46):
things. And now I see, well, no, they
don't. They believe in a means to an
end. Well, two points there.
And that's a great viewpoint to to begin with, because one of
the things that I think has beeneye opening to me, you know,
there's a reconstructing of faith and that's its own thing.
And then, you know, just with even out the politics, there's

(02:07):
how do I, as we discussed last time, how do I come out to my
family and say, this is where I am now with these beliefs and we
can believe differently and still have a peaceable
relationship. But then when you add into that,
it almost feels like betrayal trauma of the political aspect
that's come into play because now it's no longer you.

(02:27):
And I don't agree on the same things from the Bibles.
You and I view the world in verydifferent ways.
And the ways in which you taughtme to view the world and how to
treat other people have suddenlygone out the window.
And you know, I think that in looking at that, one of the
phrases that is kind of become amantra for me to to explain it
to myself, if that makes sense, is to remember that truth, which

(02:51):
I was always raised. Truth is absolute, right?
You can't change a single word precept upon precept line up
online. But now it seems to be more
truth is whatever serves the narrative at the moment.
And I think it's important that we address from the beginning of
this. There has at least from my
perspective. And you guys can feel
differently. For me living with this, I've

(03:11):
realized there has to be an element of compassion and
realizing brainwashing is a realthing.
Cult think is a real thing. And there has been an overt
effort to really persuade and Coopt evangelical beliefs on
behalf of political parties. And so a lot of people that are

(03:31):
kind of caught up in that don't realize they've been
brainwashed. They don't realize that they've
been really systemically kind ofcondition to think in ways that
probably don't align with who they were even 10 years ago.
I think for other people, however, it's kind of given them
permission to unleash some of the darker sides of belief that

(03:53):
they might not have exposed to themselves or the public in the
past. You know, it's, it's like I
heard somebody say the other day, oh, we're free now to say
the R word. And I'm like, why would you want
to? Why is that a reward?
Why does that feel like something good for you to now be
able to do? And how long have you been
hiding that? So I think, you know, all of
those things come into play. What do you think, Lance?

(04:13):
Well, a few things. So I do think the current
climate does give people permission to maybe say things
that they had previously learnedto keep to themselves.
And that can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your
perspective. Sometimes it's a good thing to
have it all out in the open so that people are more genuine in
how they're speaking and how they're talking so that you're

(04:34):
not necessarily in relationship with people that you don't know.
I am kind of curious about the red back to what you were saying
about having to agree. Agree to disagree, like what?
Like I had a conversation with my dad.
He felt like I just wasn't goingto be in a relationship with
them if I did, if they didn't agree.
And I basically said, no, that'snot it.
You can believe what you want. It's just when it comes to your

(04:57):
behavior and the things that youdid that violated my own
boundaries. That's where my red line was
because you did things. And I don't think we talked
about some of the specifics behind that, but we can go into
some of that. But I tried to emphasize is that
it's not about your belief, it'sabout how that came out into
your actions. That really was my red line.
That's a great point. That's a really great point.

(05:18):
Yeah. Because, you know, we may all
have different beliefs, but acting on those.
And for me, part of my red line,my father has been very vocal in
trying to advocate, not just hold beliefs that I disagree
with, but actively try to use his platform to advocate for
those beliefs and to call othersto action to literally have

(05:39):
boots on the around with those beliefs.
And, you know, for me, just as an example, my mother and I
today we're having a disagreement about immigration.
And, you know, she was making the point of they need to come
here legally. And I'm like, mom, you realize
they're arresting people who areat the courthouse trying to do
it legally. Like, you know, how do you, how
do you make those things kind ofcan make sense in your brain?

(06:01):
And my husband, his grandfather,immigrated here from another
country and had six beautiful children who all of them are
very successful. They're doing well, they're
educated, they're members of their community, members of
their faith communities. And you look at that history and
you're like, where's the negative?
It's one thing maybe to hold a belief, but when you're saying

(06:23):
and doing things that are are actively causing harm for me, I
think that's a red line. Well, I don't think it's about
immigration per SE. I think it's about racism.
And I think the current climate has allowed all these racist,
misogynistic assholes to come out of the closet, so to speak,
and say what they want. And I think that's just a kind

(06:44):
of a balancing act in life. We went really far, one way
liberally in our zeitgeist or whatever, and now it's flipped
back to the other side of the spectrum.
You know where, OK, now we're just going to be big assholes.
And unfortunately majority of our country are big redneck
racist assholes. Yeah, hard to say.

(07:06):
Just that's the way it is. No, it's a good point.
And for me, it begs the questionlike if you're just going to
look at it on principle, a lot of that that anger I feel like
comes from the feeling of other people are coming here and
taking away our resources, taking away things meant for me.
Well, if you hold that up and compare and contrast it with
Christian theology in the main, most Christian theology is I own

(07:27):
the cattle on 1000 Hills. You know, we come from this,
this background that says that God has an unlimited wealth to
give to his children and that, you know, all you have to do is
ask and you'll receive and you will be provided for and all
this other stuff. So it, it's hard for me then to
reconcile. How are you being so selfish and

(07:49):
stingy and saying, well, there'snot enough and that's mine and
you're taking my resources from society when your faith implies
that you have kind of this one way telephone, I guess, to God
to ask for your needs to be met.So my question in looking at
this topic spawned the other question of how did we get here?

(08:10):
And I think it's important that we understand a little bit of
the history and the ideology, especially in light of current
circumstances. And before we go further, I do
want to pause and just offer formy most sincere condolences to
all of those who have endured the loss of the tragic
assassination of the Minnesota lawmakers this week.

(08:30):
Everyone who's been caught in that situation, as well as all
of those who have been harmed bythe actions of various federal
agencies who are just pulling people off the streets and
breaking up families. That that heartache and trauma
is now going to have to be dealtwith by so many.
So our condolences. But since we're on the topic

(08:52):
talking about the the events in Minnesota, you know one of the
things that came out about the shooter who assassinated this
government officials in Minnesota this past.
Week. Yeah, no, he's on video.
OK, allegedly, allegedly, sure. He actually is an evangelical
Christian. He by his own writings and

(09:13):
social media history and the churches he attended and people
that lived with him, etcetera. This is documented.
You can do your own research, asit were.
But he was heavily affiliated with the New Apostolic
Reformation, which I'll dress ina second.
He attended Christ for the Nations in Dallas, TX for
several years. He went on several evangelical
mission trips to Africa and shared his version of theology

(09:37):
there. He was also a heavy follower of
Reinhardt Bunkie, which I'll never say that right Smith
Wigglesworth and other kind of miracle based Christian
theology. So let me ask you guys, have you
before this heard in the mainstream the phrase new
Apostolic Reformation? No.
I try to avoid all that kind of silly talk.
I know you do. I know you do.

(09:58):
OK. So just by way of background,
the New Apostolic Reformation is, is an influential Christian
movement that's become more and more influential in the past 10
years. And they played a very
significant role in the intertwining of the MAGA
movement, the Heritage Foundation and evangelical

(10:19):
Christians. If you see the images of the
people in the Oval Office with their hands extended and praying
for Donald Trump, you know, someof those famous pictures, those
are directly influenced by new Apostolic Reformation groups.
They're very active politically.It's not, just to be clear, it's
not a denomination, but it's a network of charismatic leaders,

(10:40):
churches and ministries. They believe heavily in modern
day restoration of the offices of the apostles and prophets.
And that would be kind of a parentheses where your cat
curves come in and your Kim Clements and people sort of of
that ilk, YouTube profits and things, they're seen as kind of
having special spiritual authority and sort of

(11:02):
functioning as the divine mouthpiece of God.
So the idea with this modern dayapostles and prophets is they
think that God has anointed new apostles and prophets to lead
the church and take dominion over society.
And a part of this thinking, I don't know if you guys have ever
heard this term. This was heavy in one of the
churches I attended was the ideaof dominion theology or

(11:24):
dominionism. Have you guys ever heard of
that? OK.
Only recently. Only recently.
You might also hear it referred to as 7 Mountain Dominionism,
and the idea is that Christians should take the Kingdom by force
with regards to the societal institutions of government,
media, education, business, and these seven kind of hills of

(11:47):
culture, and that they should influence them for the cause of
evangelicism, conservatism, and ultimately hasten the return of
Christ by preparing the body. They have a heavy emphasis on
spiritual warfare, very, very big into the idea of casting out
demons battling satanic forces. They see Hollywood and the media

(12:09):
as demonic. They see elements in pop culture
as being almost like you'll hearsome things like music is spell
casting, secular music is spell casting and it's trying to
infiltrate your, you know, your spirit and this and that.
In the third, they're also very,very big into miracles and sort
of the supernatural aspect with healings with prophecies, things

(12:31):
like that that you can use your imagination.
And this is the big one. The prophets believe they get
direct revelation from God themselves about politics and
world events. And then they go on to YouTube
or they go into their churches and they they preach not just it
is no longer the message of Christianity.
It is the message of take the Kingdom by force, right that you

(12:54):
any means justifies the end and the end is to put Christians of
this particular stripe into highlevel positions.
And that's where just by a way of backtracking.
If you can go all the way back to Jerry Falwell, right when the
big kind of pivotal moment whereRepublicanism joined with

(13:15):
Christianity in public facing things was Ronald Reagan was
campaigning for president and hewent to this big Christian
coalition meeting with Jerry Falwell and it was televised, if
I'm not mistaken. And at that time, I believe it's
the Johnson Doctrine was still in effect that said a religious
group cannot endorse a politicalcandidate.
So Reagan got up, being the orator that he was and said, I'm

(13:38):
so happy to be here amongst Christians.
And let me tell you, I know thatyou can't endorse me, but I, I
want you to know that I endorse you.
And that moment right there was really the handshake of up until
that time, evangelical Christians were kind of looked
down upon as lower educated, lower class, too demonstrative.

(14:00):
You know, charismaticism was really seen as almost a very
fringe sort of element. And that really started bringing
it into the mainstream. And so when that happened,
politicians begin to see, Oh my God, there's this huge voting
bloc. They have different socio
economic backgrounds, they come from different places, even
different racial backgrounds. But we can unify them through

(14:23):
the funnel of religion and make this voting bloc now strongly
identify with us and think that we're advocating on their behalf
and therefore when their votes in perpetuity.
So by way of backgrounds, that'sa little bit of where that comes
from. And then just to finish that bit
up, how does the New Apostolic Reformation movement work with

(14:44):
MAGA specifically? So, and again, I know many of
you listening may be aware of this.
For those of you who haven't been in church groups or circles
or friends or family or been on Facebook in a while, this may be
new information. But a lot of people in that
world that function under the realm of prophet, specifically

(15:04):
the way they get around a lot ofthe ethical issues and the bad
behaviors and the kind of thingsthat would normally make one
clutch their pearls, so to speak, is because they say that
Trump is the modern day Cyrus, the modern day David, right?
They, they use those two people from the Bible to kind of say,

(15:25):
well, David, you know, committedadultery and had his lover's
husband killed at battle so he could sleep with Bathsheba.
God still used him because he was a man after God's own heart.
And then of course, Cyrus being in the Bible, a biblical figure
who was not a believer, but who God used to help deliver Israel.
And so, you know, it's really a how can we make this fit our

(15:47):
narrative, right? So that's what they use as a
counter argument when you say, OK, well, Trump's a convicted 34
time felon. He's been convicted in a civil
court of sexual assault along with many other charges that
have come up there. Certainly questionable
relationships with certain people.
We won't mention who lived on anisland and had airplanes and

(16:09):
allegedly liked younger people. You know, so the way of
overlooking that is by saying, well, David wasn't perfect, but
God used him because his heart was for Israel.
And what they've really done is they framed politics now as
spiritual warfare, right? So they've used this platform of
seven mountain Dominionism. They've used this framing of

(16:33):
political leadership as the David figure, the Cyrus figure.
And they've said, well, clearly there's a war against us because
that Christian persecution complex is strong.
And this person is standing up to be our, they are going to
level the playing field on our behalf.
They're going to make sure that we are no longer persecuted,

(16:54):
which news flash, they're not persecuted.
And they've really framed that as such spiritual warfare that
now that's what people see. And that's where you get a lot
of the language that you specifically saw in Minnesota.
The Johnson Amendment, I believeis what it's called is still in
effect. Unfortunately, the IRS doesn't
enforce it for whatever reason. Probably obviously political

(17:17):
pressure, because half the reason that Republicans are in
office, most of the reason is because of evangelicals.
And donations as well. And donations and why don't?
You clarify what the Johnson Amendment is it.
Basically says that churches arenot allowed to endorse political
figures. They can have like they could
have the Democratic and the Republican and whoever else come

(17:40):
speak at their congregation, butthey can't just endorse one
specific candidate over the other.
And. If they do, they lose their
yeah. Their tax exempt status, which
if it wasn't for tax exempt status, I wonder how many
churches there would be. Right.
And you? Know not so I was going to I was

(18:01):
going to say that when you were talking about the whole platform
of this new evangelical movementit's really ironic that it
sounds just like those big scaryMuslims.
They're, well, the white version, the Christian version
of the the same thing that they're terrified of.

(18:22):
And you're exactly spot on with that because a lot of the
viewpoints and beliefs that the new episodic reformation
purports are things like people who are gay should not be
living, women should not have the right to vote.
One of the the big pushers. I don't know if you guys are
familiar with the SAVE Act, which has been being lobbied

(18:43):
right now on Congress. That's an act that has to do
with voting rights. And in part of that language is
embedded that you have to present documentation with your
original name as it shows on your birth certificate and that
if you don't, you're not allowedto vote.
Well, what does that do to married women?
They've changed their name for marriage, and they're not going

(19:04):
to accept a marriage license as proof of change.
And frankly, who has all of their documents of origin, like,
you know, filed away and tucked away?
My husband had to get his birth certificate for a job
verification the other day. And he had to, like, call his
mother. He's 49.
And he'd be like, mom, do you have my birth certificate?
So you know, you're not wrong. A lot of people do call them the

(19:24):
Christian Taliban. And that's, that's that part of
the mindset. Then back to the Johnson
Doctrine. You have people who've been
violating that for years, right?And who definitely get up in the
pulpit. And they, the way they kind of
get around it is I'm not going to tell you who to vote for, but
I'm going to tell you I'm votingwith the Bible and the Bible has

(19:45):
me voting for XYZ candidate. Right.
They're they're way over to the top.
More than that, that they'll just flat out out and tell you
who to vote for because God, Godtold them, you know?
Well, I mean some organizations will go as far as creative
separate entity so that they canget away.
Like I know Focus on the Family does that they have two separate
entities. So I think they created a for

(20:08):
profit organization so that theycan so that.
Right. But then they don't make that
distinction or differentiation to their audience.
So from their audience perspective, and that's.
Just being deceptive. That's just, that's just lying.
That is another way of lying. Well, you know.
Should we talk about how many pastors and folks that we know

(20:30):
of who take advantage of the taxrule that if you live in a
Parsonage, you don't have to payproperty tax on your home?
And so they put their vehicles in the name of the church.
They put their house in the nameof the church.
They use their tax exempt statusnumber to buy furniture for
that. I know people who are living
like that right now who have lived that way for at least 50

(20:52):
years, who have not been pastoring a church for at least
a good 20, but they still write their house off as a Parsonage.
So again, truth is what serves the narrative.
Because it'll come back to buy them if they if they don't have
some money saved because they won't be getting Social Security
because they never paid into it.Yeah, Lance, I'm sure.
Socialism. Well, I'm sure in your line of

(21:14):
work you may have run into a lotof that too.
Yeah. How did you all view separation
of church and state growing up? I'm just curious how that was
presented. Well, I always was taught.
I mean, I was a big history buff.
I read a lot, and I understand that the founding Father fathers
didn't come here so people couldworship God.

(21:35):
It was not freedom of religion. I feel like it was more freedom
from religion, freedom to kind of do what you want.
And that's another thing about lying, lying preachers, every
time they get in the pulpit and say this church was founded on
God, that's bullshit. I mean, read history.
That's a lie right there. But no, I, I was always a little
different from my family. And I always felt that

(21:57):
separation of church and state was a good thing, just like
separation of all three branchesof the government is a good
thing. It keeps checks and balances,
you know, and to Force One specific religion on somebody or
force somebody to believe something that's as anti
American as can be. Yeah.
And I guess for me, the the takeaway that I kind of got from

(22:19):
that, which is interesting to you because we were raised in
the same house, presumably by the same people.
But my take away as a child or ayoung person from that idea was
that we have a separation of church and state.
But it shouldn't be that by having the separation of church.
This, this is what I was gettingfrom, from my elders, as it

(22:39):
were, right from church leadership, that God's real wish
was that America would be a Christian nation and, you know,
would pray in school like I was.Oh my God, I remember my mother
going off on a tangent about Madeline Marie O'Hare and her
battle against prayer in school.And you know, I personally, I
didn't see it that way. I kind of felt like, well, what

(23:00):
if somebody's not a Christian? They shouldn't have to like, you
know, deal with a different religion because I myself
wouldn't like, I wouldn't want to be preached to any religion,
but let alone one that, you know, had nothing to do with me
or, or my history or, or whatever.
So that's, I guess that was my take away.
And then when I got older, I found out there was two kind of
two groups in the founding at the United States.

(23:23):
The first group was the Puritansthat actually came here because
they weren't allowed to be as strict as they wanted to be
overseas. And so they were kind of like,
no, you can't. You can't be that harsh with it.
And so they left to be able to kind of really go to extremes.
But then our founding fathers, the intellects and thinkers and
philosophers, they weren't Christians.

(23:44):
They were Deists. And, you know, I think it was
Thomas Jefferson. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong
that had like the divine watchmaker theory of there may
be a God, but God set the world in motion and now his hands off.
But I think I was probably raised more with the kind of
dominionist mindset that only when America returns to its
religious roots will there be peace in the Middle East, The

(24:05):
red heifer and Israel, the rebuilding of the Temple and the
return of Christ. Isn't the Antichrist supposed to
do that and then all hell breaksloose?
Interesting. Go.
Ahead, I've I've forgotten, I don't remember, but it's I feel
like I live in a topsy turvy world to some degree because I
remember my father preaching a message about the need for

(24:27):
separation of church and state and that we enjoy the liberties
in our religion. But because of that, we also
have to tolerate that there is aChurch of Satan as well.
And he elevated that idea of religious freedom for me growing
up. So to be in this topsy turvy
environment of Christian nationalism where the things are

(24:48):
starting to meld together seems in opposition to what I remember
being younger and also growing up in a Christian Church school
that was also emphasized. The state shouldn't come in and
tell us how we need to be educated within our church,
right? Like again, that was all
supported of separation of church and state, but all of

(25:09):
that has shifted back into something else that is
unrecognizable to me. I think that you have to look at
it from the perspective of that was during the Cold War,
everybody was scared of Russia. And so when you put it in that
context of separation of church and state, back then Russia was
the church, Russia was the school, Russia taught your
children. And I think they were looking at

(25:30):
that sort of a fear of, oh, no, separation of church and state
because we don't want the state to tell us what to do.
But in this context, like you said, it's a we're in the upside
down and now they have the opportunity to take over the
country and they'll be telling them, they'll be running them,
they'll be telling them what to do.
So that's I think the differencethere.

(25:51):
But there lies the beautiful, terrible conundrum, right?
And I think for myself, growing up in this world as a woman,
this has kind of been the bifurcation that I've seen all
along. There were the rules for me but
not for thee, or rules for thee but not for me, right?
And. Do as I say, not as I do.
Right. And before there was that idea

(26:12):
that the separation of church and state is there so that we
don't have anybody infringing upon us and telling our children
what to believe in schools and in in public spaces and what
have you. Now that has flipped to we
should absolutely be able to tell people what to think and
believe in public spaces throughlegislation, etcetera.

(26:32):
And you know, I have a friend who's a teacher in Texas and
she's really grappling right nowbecause she teaches in a, in a,
she teaches in a Big Blue city in Houston, TX.
And they're facing the fact thatthey're going to have to put the
10 commandments up next year andin a public school.
And I asked her, I was like, well, how are you going to
approach that? And she's like, well, the rule
is it has to be on an 8 1/2 or 11 by 14, whatever size piece of

(26:55):
paper presented in the classroom.
So what she's going to do is she's actually going to make the
comparative religions board and have it posted up there as one
of the many kind of belief systems of different religions.
She's a happens to be a literature teacher.
And so she's going to be using it sort of through that lens,
which that works for her. But what about in math, you
know? Why don't you just post it in
the original language? There you go.

(27:18):
It's there, but nobody can understand it and it'll probably
come in and say, what's this Muslim stuff you have on the
wall? But so one of the ways that that
groups like this kind of pigtailed into more mainstream,
I guess, belief systems like hardcore.
So at least when I was growing up, Pentecostalism was sort of

(27:38):
seen as like the hardcore version version of charismatic
belief systems and evangelical belief systems.
How did this political movement get all of these different
groups and denominations who, despite having a similar belief
system, had very different ways of approaching how those beliefs
looked in life and how they kindof walked in life?

(28:01):
And you know, one thing that's been so interesting is to see
that the political groups have really kind of Co opted.
They found a few sort of planks that everybody had in common,
one of them being abortion, one of them being the Christian
persecution complex and the longfor religious freedom, which
they think they're persecuted and again, they are not.

(28:21):
The idea of traditional family values, concerns about
homosexuality, and most recently, the whole idea of
trans people in athletics, whichby the way, if you do the
research, that is less than 1% of the people who play K through
12 sports. It is such a small number, it's

(28:43):
not even an issue. And they've chosen to make that
kind of the hobby horse to rile people up.
Not to mention the underlying racism and misogyny that's been
there too. Christian schools, in fact, were
begun in the 70s as private institutions and they would call
them, I think it was a 60s or 70s, right, when school
segregation unfolded and we started having, you know,

(29:06):
schools being mixed groups. The Southerners didn't like,
they set it up as Christian schools, as parochial schools so
that they could kind of admit who they wanted depending upon
their belief agreements and, andthings like that.
So all of that, that racism and misogyny had been really
bubbling under the surface and was really part of, I mean, look

(29:29):
at the KKK and the crosses that they burned, right?
It was the idea of preserving white womanhood and Christianity
and family values. So we never really resolved
those issues as an we sort of shoved them under the bed.
We made some boundaries with legislation around them, but we
never really resolved the heart of that.
So when these political things started coming up and they're

(29:52):
like, well, even the Baptist andthe Pentecostals agree on
abortion. Even they agree on the idea of
traditional family values. And even they still have these
undercurrents, especially in theSouth, of racism and misogyny.
And they folded all those thingsin together.
They got the endorsements of people that already had gained

(30:14):
trust in those communities, likeFranklin Graham or like Paula
White. And then they begin to
infiltrate and ingrain themselves themselves with
Christians and really stoke fearof saying, hey, it's not just
that we disagree politically. The Democrats are demons.
They want to send your children home from school and make them
trans, which if you've ever known anybody going through that

(30:37):
process, that's just just ridiculous to think that's not
how it happens. And, you know, to really prey
upon their fears as you're losing your culture, right, you
need to defend your heritage. Well, what heritage are you
defending? You know, we're supposed to be
in a melting pot. So what heritage are you
defending? And listen to any country music

(30:57):
song, God, Mama girls and hunting, Right?
That that's oversimplification, but that's really what's been
played upon. And they've done it
strategically and systematicallyand systemically for two or more
decades through multiple avenuesof media.
And then when social media came into play, that really

(31:18):
accelerated things. It's just recently having a
memory. We were talking of hearing a
whole sermon about why Michael Dukakis was the Antichrist.
I mean, I was very young when Michael Dukakis was running,
couldn't even vote yet. And already the lines have been
drawn for me growing up. And as far as the religious

(31:42):
right, I guess the documentary that opened my eyes to some of
that was the Cherry Falwell stuff that was displayed in the
God Forbid. I had to look it up to remember
the name. But God Forbid on Hulu is
essentially got a pretty good chunk of the history of the
religious right. And of course, you know, as
abortion came up, that's always been the polarizing issue.

(32:04):
However, I think if you took thethe abortion issue off the
table, the lines would still be drawn in some other way.
And I do think a couple of things like, like we said
earlier in the discussion, how people are more entitled to
share what they truly have maybethought or believed in terms of

(32:25):
racism, in terms of fear, in terms of the other, like all
those things that have maybe learned to hold on to during
more liberal administrations, especially the Obama
administration, things the pendulum swung the other way and
people are more free to share racist ideas, racist comments,

(32:47):
especially around systematic racism.
So there's just so much. And you did mention about trans.
I mean, they are the new enemy that's supposed to be the
unifier to use fear in order to unify a group of people for the
purposes of power. And what greater group than a

(33:10):
group that is less than 1% of the population?
Like you can't get smaller than that in order to demonize a
group. That's a great point.
I just and all of this and the underpinning for all of it, I
think, I think you asked earlierabout how did we get here.
It all has to do in my mind at least, my experience is

(33:31):
superiority complex like the thesigns, the wonders, the speaking
in tongues, the healings, all ofthat was almost sought after, I
believe, as almost a spiritual validation of we have the truth,
we have the power other people don't.
And it's such a superiority ideabecause I think there's some

(33:53):
insecurity there that everyone needed some sort of powerful
validation. Well, if you, that's such a good
point, if you look at it, the people historically going back
to the 90s when Pentecostalism really took root in the United
States and with, with Parnham and you know, Azusa St. and all
those different things. These were the people who were

(34:13):
very disenfranchised. It was a lot of disenfranchised
poor white people in the South, right?
And they didn't have as much access to education.
They were on the outskirts of society and were looked at as
the lesser than. And you would have the beautiful
nice Baptist Church in the middle of the town.
And then out there on the edges of town by the Juke joints and

(34:34):
the honky tonks, there'd be the Pentecostal church with the
whooping and the hollerin and everything else.
And in some places the snake handling and, and all of those
things. So there was already a
pejorative position, right? And I think you're right.
I think that might be where someof the roots of the persecution
complex come from. And.
You know, I hear it like right now in my head when you're
saying that like a preacher going, you know, you've been put

(34:57):
down, you've been the bottom of the barrel, you've been looked
down upon your whole life, but now you have something that they
don't have. I can just hear that.
I've heard it so many times. Yep, and even, you know, as you
said, Lance, this is such a great point that it can't be
said enough. When you're in that world, you
are conditioned to believe that there is a very much a hierarchy

(35:20):
of belief, right. And the other denominations were
they're kind of here. They're like they're entry
level, they know Jesus, they read the Bible, they you know,
they're almost there. But if they don't baptize in
Jesus name, speak in tongues, have healings, have the fruits
of the spirit and the signs and the wonders and the prophets and
the this and that, they have notbeen given the full power that

(35:43):
was intended. And they're just, they're not
quite there yet. God help me.
You mentioned the Catholics because I was raised that there
were Christians and then there were Catholics and Catholics
were not Christians. And I think it's very
interesting in this political framing, the positioning of Amy
Coney Barrett onto the Supreme Court was a direct move to bring

(36:05):
in that Catholic ideology. She, if you don't know, she's
very much a fundamentalist Catholic and actually has been
part of a group that's very similar to, they actually are
called the Handmaids, which that's scary as hell.
That's a whole nother story. Go research that and take your.
Xanax that is very scary. The hand men still like.

(36:25):
It's a real group. She's very much part of that
group. And that's kind of as well as JD
Vance. He's part of what's called Opus
Day. I don't know if you're familiar
with that as well as is Peter Thiel, who is the tech oligarch
who funded JD Vance and really put him in position.
And Trump had to be told this will be your running mate,

(36:45):
right? And that's, that's how they
folded in the Catholics. They brought them in on these
cultural issues where they thought there was alignment with
the evangelical Christianities. They brought in the evangelical
Catholics and folded those things together to kind of
create this lockstep, you know, movement.
And to this end, I think this isa good point before we move on,

(37:07):
is that you have to recognize once you've been in a cult, once
you've had groupthink and you'vekind of suspended your own
ability to rationalize and thinkthrough things and you've
accepted dogma as truth just because the prophet says, right?
That's right next door to being able to be brainwashed by other

(37:28):
things. Once you've been kind of
brainwashed and had your thoughts sculpted in those ways,
look how many people come out ofevangelicism and go right into
another cult, right? Or they're in multi level
marketing scams or they're in, you know, essential oils or
whatever The thing is. And so it's not a big jump.

(37:48):
If you go from a high control thought group of religion to now
you're just expanding that to politics.
They're already primed and ready.
I don't think that you could have had that same, I guess,
success of engagement with a group that wasn't.
So they've been conditioned. That's the word I'm looking for.
They've been conditioned to accept authoritarianism and

(38:09):
suspend their own thinking behaviors.
That makes sense. Well, I might have a lower
opinion of human behavior than you do.
Mainly, I don't know about that.Well, the reason I say that is
because what I was what you described kind of sounds like
it's it's, it's been perpetrated.
But I do think there is an element where people's behavior

(38:32):
is definitely wanting to self elevate, to belong to, to be
creator. Like I put a little bit more
onus, I guess, on the the followers because they are
wanting to write a narrative that is supportive to elevate
themselves. And and so they they do follow

(38:54):
that even I think maybe even without being conditioned just
because we have human behavior. And of course, so the bad word
evolution. My husband taught a sermon
essentially on the lizard brain,right, that the whole evolution
of the need to survive and how we're conditioned to to focus on
the other. And I just I think there's a

(39:16):
human behavior element that we are just evolved.
We haven't evolved, maybe is thebetter term to the point to get
past that lizard brain. No, that's such a, such a great
point because you're right, fundamentally we are tribal
animals. You know, we just are and we
want, you're right, we want to belong.
We want to be in the end group. And when you have a group of

(39:37):
people who perhaps by socioeconomics or by virtue of
being branded a fringe religion in the past or things like that,
or intellectually look down uponwhich the rise of anti
intellectualism goes hand in hand here with what we're
talking about in the past, especially to be a minister of
kind of the more traditional denominations like Baptist or

(39:59):
Episcopal or Lutheran or whatever.
So you couldn't just stand up and say, I feel called by God,
right? You had to go to seminary.
You had to receive some level ofeducation and you know,
conference of study or somethinglike that.
But in the Pentecostal or evangelical tradition, you can
just say, hey, yesterday I was out there riding a backhoe, but

(40:19):
today God told me I'm the prophet.
So buckle up, you know? And and this provided such an on
ramp into now it's not just thatyou're being kind of considered
and patted on the head. Your representative is the
highest elected official in the face of the earth, right?
There are people that believe just like you now on the Supreme

(40:39):
Court. Now you can look at Congress and
see them praying with their hands raised, which I remember,
man, if if you ever brought a friend to church and then the
congregation started raising their hands in worship, you knew
it was going to be one of those moments where you had to explain
to your non church going friendslike, no, they're not asking
questions. They're just raising their hands

(41:01):
in celebration of worship, right.
So yeah, I think I think that's spot on.
It's that that on ramp to being in the in Group, you're right.
And I do think politically thereis a power play on that to use
fear in order to mobilize that. And then I think T you said
earlier about the reaction and I've always seen it as a pundit
pendulum on the political climate coming out of Obama that

(41:24):
things do tend to swing the other way.
And I think we saw that. And because why though?
Because you think it's because of fear.
I think it's just a human nature, Like even in sports, you
see it 1, you know, four or fiveyears defense will dominate in
the NFL, then it'll swing back to offense.
It's just kind of you get, well,in the NFL or in sports, at

(41:45):
least in this analogy, the otherguy figures out what the other
guy's doing, so the other side gets better.
But I think in this case, peoplejust get tired of extremes.
And so we'll go back the other way eventually, or maybe more to
the middle. I thought we had learned our OR
less than a few years ago, but we didn't.
And now if you look around, a lot of the people that voted for

(42:06):
him I think are starting to regret it, especially
financially. In Florida, I saw farmers are
not even able to pick their tomatoes and they're having to
just till over their crops because they don't have any
workers anymore. So, you know, cutting off your
nose to spite your face there. A lot of people read the Bible,
but they don't read it I guess. No, but but you're right because

(42:27):
if you look at what happened post 2020, they didn't, as you
mentioned at the top of the show, they didn't just accept
that with the graciousness of well, we've lost and we'll
represent our platform next timeand and see what the public
says. They came at it from the side of
you have been robbed, you have been disenfranchised, your voice
was silenced. This was stolen from you and

(42:48):
really stirring up what Christianese would call, you
know, righteous indignation and making it really sort of a, a
moral. This isn't just you expressing
your politics now. This is a moral spiritual
warfare against framing it through those eyes.
I remember right after the 2020 election seeing videos of Paula
White, like having these 24 hourprayer vigils.

(43:10):
She was like calling in angels from different continents to go
do spiritual warfare or Cat Kerrwho was trying to you know, so
it doesn't matter. A lot of craziness.
Y'all should go look that stuff up if you haven't seen.
It, you know, just Speaking of families being split apart, that
was the time for me at least when I really, I mean, although

(43:31):
I'd seen it in the past where I really started to see a really
dark side of my parents and justthe hatred and vitrol.
I think I'm saying that, right, that that this brought out in
them just the racism and the homophobia.
You think, you know, growing up,at least I think most people do,
that your parents are good people on the inside and they

(43:52):
would always do the right thing.But that really opened my eyes
to the fact that, you know, theymaybe really aren't good people.
And, you know, you want to feel sorry for them because they were
raised in a different era and they were brainwashed their
whole life growing up. But that does not prevent you
from being just a genuine good person.
And that just led me to, you know what?

(44:14):
I don't want them around my children.
I don't want them to have that influence.
And I don't want them in my lifebecause every time I bring them
into my life, it hurts me. And yeah.
And so what's what's the point of that?
They birthed me, they fed me, and they sent me off into the
world. And I don't want to.
I wouldn't want to be friends with that kind of person.

(44:35):
And just because somebody's related to me, I don't feel like
it's my responsibility to have relationship if they're not
going to be the kind of person Iwant to be around.
Well, you know what? And I want to come back to that
point of protecting your children.
But before we do, I just wanted to offer this perspective when
we're talking kind of about where we are.
My hope and maybe, you know, maybe this is pie in the sky,

(44:56):
but I've heard it purported thatthis is an extinction burst.
And if you're not familiar with that term, an extinction burst
is when you have a behavior or kind of a type of mindset or
whatever it may be. And it's being it's time has
come and gone, right? Idea is that before those
behaviors are extinguished, theyexacerbate they ramp up because

(45:18):
people see that what they're comfortable with is drifting
away and so they kind of try very hard to fan those flames
and make it like no, this is still great horses are still
great paper record keeping is the way to go right and so you
do according to social science, you do see a a peak in the
occurrence of those activities, but it's because those

(45:38):
activities are about to die off because you know it's their
extinction time. So I'm hopeful that maybe some
of the hateful attitudes and, and those lizard brain driven
ways of being are in an extinction burst culturally for
us. I mean, other countries, you can
look at 1933 Germany. I mean, my goodness, they
certainly had a massive culturaloverhaul and came out the other

(46:00):
side of some extensive tragedy with very different ways of
approaching things. Maybe that could be the case
here, but hopefully we won't have to go through that.
How could the Germans let this happen?
How did the Germans let you knowNazis happen?
And here we are, like history repeating it.
But so how do we how do we maintain friendships and.

(46:20):
I know my experience, I'll have to think a moment to know if I
know others. For me it wasn't about different
beliefs. And I don't know if this just is
a unique position for the three of us.
Because for me my parents havingbeliefs was not as problematic
as when they took action to those beliefs.

(46:41):
And in particular, my parents published a book that was anti
LGBT components. And so for me, that action was
disrespectful to me, to my husband, to my family, to my
marriage. Had they just said, well, this
is what I believe or this is what I think, I don't know.
I think I could have tolerated that a little better, but it

(47:02):
wouldn't translated to actual action and media and a message
into the world that I believe was not just hurtful to me, but
also toxic potentially to other people and hurtful to other
people. That's where I had to back away
from a relationship with my parents parents.
And because kind of like you said, my parents did take care

(47:23):
of me. They've supported me and so I
had that conversation with them.I said I don't see how we can go
forward socially and being in each others lives and actually
sharing some sort of social connection.
But please know you are my parents.
I love you. As you get older, if you need
medical help, if you need assistance, if you need
financial, I will always be there for you.
You are certainly there for me, like I recognize and at least

(47:47):
honored, but in terms of sharingour lives with one another.
So I don't see how we can do that right now.
And that's kind of where we havestalled in our relationship.
Well, you have wonder because you know, like, I mean, parents
aren't dumb. They I'm sure realized when they
were doing that book and doing all that, that it was going to

(48:08):
hurt you. And what is the what is the
reason to do that? Why?
You know that that's what I think I would be feeling is you
knew that was going to hurt me. Why the why the fuck would you
do that? You know, and that goes back to,
you know, it just messes with your mind thinking, did they
ever really love me? You know, did that?
You know what I mean? Do they even know what love is?

(48:28):
That's that's my perspective. That's my point of view on that
anyways. I would, I would be like, you
know, you knew this was going tothere.
There's an example I have and I don't want to ramble on.
My wife told me I rambled too much, but that I remember when I
was in second grade, I was told that I was going to have to
leave public school and go to private school.
And I was like a stud in my public school.

(48:51):
I had a little girlfriend, you know, I was the quarterback of
the flag football team. I, you know, I was the man and I
remember mom told me in the car.I remember exactly where we
were. I remember the car we were in.
It's one of the few memories that just burned into my brain.
And I was like, you know, I don't want to do this.
I've, you know, tried to plead my point in my mind.

(49:12):
I was thinking, all right, it's my mom.
She knows me, she loves me. If I tell her how I really feel
that she won't make me do it. Well, 7-8 years later I was
still in private school so. They want you to switch they.
Started a church school. They already started a church
school. Yeah.
And so the preacher's kid has togo, you know, but that to me is

(49:33):
one of the big life changing moments for me.
I went from this happy go lucky kid who loved life, loved his
friends to depressed. I got fat, I hated myself.
I had no self-confidence. I felt like it broke me and I've
I that was, I realized at a really young age that somebody

(49:53):
that says they unconditionally love you and you can break your
heart and it's, it was one of the hardest lessons I ever had
to learn how to really engage. In a similar way, I described it
a bit different with my parents and that I feel like their love
is kind of narrow and that they truly believe what they believe.
They believe I'm going to hell, those types of things, and so

(50:17):
they are afraid for me. But that is such a narrow level
of love that they can't expand that wider to really appreciate
the person that I am, to accept who I am like that.
To me it's it's just narrow versus wide and.
I think that, you know, without,I was told this by the professor

(50:38):
I mentioned last podcast who taught the Bible as the Bible as
just literature. He said without, without love or
without, excuse me, without death, there would be no love.
And I think in the evangelical Christian world, you have
heaven. So, you know, you don't, you
don't have that feeling of like I do that we're, we're going to

(50:59):
die. You know, when you're gone,
you're gone. So you have more of that love
for somebody. It's there's not going to be an
actor for me. You know, in my mind, there's
maybe there is, who knows? But I'm there's not streets of
gold that I'm going to be meeting my wife and kids and my
dogs on later in life and my cat.

(51:20):
So I think they have that that thought process is a little
different. This isn't the end of the road
for them, you know? So I think without death, why
would you love anybody if you think about it?
Well, and because. They're not going to ever be
gone. You can always have an
opportunity to be there with. Them there's such that ties into
with there's such pressure around the idea of witnessing

(51:42):
and like, you know, saving otherpeople's soul kind of that
mindset. And you know, we're raised on
these stories of the praying mother who never gave up on
their wild child and they'd go into their prayer closet and
they just pray and pray and prayeven though exactly.
But the flip side of that, and this is a common thrust read and

(52:02):
I know we have our, our unique experience, but I have read so
much, this has hurt me so deeplyjust by by way of sharing.
I have a child that's profoundlydisabled.
He relies on Medicaid to cover his extensive surgeries and you
know, different things that he needs and, and stuff like that.
My husband is second generation American.

(52:22):
His, his family is Mexican. My children are half Mexican.
My older children are actually half, or not half, but partially
Canadian first. People's like, we have a lot
going on in this family. You know, I myself am a female
working in STEM. And so it's like everything that
they voted for and advocated fordirectly comes into the face of

(52:44):
and hurts every person in my family.
And for me, I've read so many stories of people who are kind
of in the same boat. And what I keep picking up on is
this is betrayal trauma, right? Like, you kind of make your
peace with your parents as an adult.
And you say, OK, we have different views.
We see things differently. But that love is kind of the

(53:06):
uniting tide that binds and feeling like if the rubber meets
the road, they love me, they'll be there for me.
Yeah, this is more than just thegenerational gap thing.
Yeah, yeah. No, for sure.
And when you have that trail like that cuts deep.
And I think there's a trauma there that we're still kind of,
you know, to put it in a metaphor, we're still trying to

(53:27):
kind of build the airplane whilewe're in midair.
We're trying to figure this out in the midst of feeling this
betrayal. And this sense of you raised me
in this world with very black and white, clear cut boundaries.
And now what I see from you is directly not only betraying me,
but you're betraying yourself. You're betraying these values

(53:49):
that have already caused wedges between US.
And now what I'm seeing is you let go of me for something that
you didn't even hold onto, right?
Does that make sense? Like you let go of your
relationship with me based on all these belief systems and
ideas, but yet when something shiny came with something that

(54:09):
is a golden statue came along that offered you more power or
more access or, you know, what you felt like was more certainty
in your own spaces and for your own ideals, you let go of your
beliefs to grab on to that. So does that make sense?
It's it's I'm having a hard timearticulating.
No, it does also just things that I was taught all growing

(54:31):
up. And, you know, I left when I was
18 or 19. But when you sit in church three
nights a week, it gets ingrainedinto your head.
But the signs that I was told were the signs of the
Antichrist, you know, golden statues, things like that, those
are happening and they're just ignored.
So it's not only betrayal of of their morals and values, but of

(54:53):
things they just told you. And they will gaslight you and
tell you, no, that's not true. My mom and dad are.
Masters a good point because, you know, one of the things,
again, that we see over and overis people that have been taught
to accept gaslighting in church so often find themselves in
abusive relationships or narcissistic relationships where

(55:15):
you're being gas lit all the time.
And it's like I had a therapist tell me this.
How do you recognize red flags if that's the only color you've
ever seen? You know, and that certainly was
true in my life. But I don't think we're alone in
the struggle. And I think that, you know,
whether even outside the bonds of religion, there are so many
people right now who are struggling that weren't even

(55:38):
raised religiously, but they were raised ethically or with a
set of principles. And now those principles are
being violated. And I just wanted to, to share
really quickly as we wrap up. You know, I was, I was speaking
honestly with my mother today and she was sharing with me her
viewpoints on immigration, whichI won't belabor you all with.

(55:59):
But that being said, I told her,and you guys know, I'm a, as far
as my belief, I leave space for what I don't know.
And I leave space for the wonderand the mysticism of it all.
But whatever it is, it's not what I was raised on.
We'll just leave it at that. But I fight fire with fire.
And so I knew I could sit there and tell her my talking points
and ideas and it would be, you know, that's, that's just your

(56:22):
college talking. You don't know what you're
talking about. You know, the devil's got you.
And so I quoted this and I said,well, you know, you're going to
have to believe what you believe.
But As for me, I'm going to stick with the words of the
Bible and that says when a foreigner resides among you in
your land, do not mistreat them.They, the foreigner that resides

(56:43):
among you must be treated as your native born brother.
Love them as yourself, for you were once foreigners in Egypt.
And that's from, if you're looking for a reference, anybody
out there that's Leviticus 19 and 33.
And you know, that's the part that I have trouble with is if
you're using the Bible to justify your beliefs, I was
taught line upon line, precept upon precept, you can't change

(57:06):
one word. Of course, we all know cherry
picking exists. But if we're going to live
amongst the cherry pickers, I'm going to use that to prove the
other point. Because the Bible does say that.
And it says as you've done to the least of my little ones.
And Jesus says to them, get awayfrom me with your, your works.
I never knew you because when I was hungry, you didn't feed me.

(57:29):
When I was in prison, you didn'tcome visit me.
When I was sick, you didn't takecare of me.
And they said, Lord, when were you these things?
And he said, as you've done to the least of my little ones,
you've done unto me. There's another section in the
Bible that says true religion isdoing what you can for the widow
and the orphan, taking care of those who have less than you,

(57:49):
You know, So that's, that's whatI kind of used to combat those
when I feel, when I feel up to the challenge.
And ironically, the answer is always, well, I don't know about
that. Really.
OK. Yeah, yeah.
So there's, there's no real kindof like apologetics from their
end for explaining that. But I think that collectively,

(58:13):
we are all in this place of navigating this line of kind of
defining boundaries of how do wemaintain relationships with
people we love? Can we maintain relationships
with people we love? How much hurt do we allow in?
How much hypocrisy do we allow in?
And how do we grieve that betrayal trauma and the lines in

(58:35):
the sand that have been drawn that now leave us on one side
and our loved ones on the other?I think it's.
For every person because just between the three of us, we all
approach it a little bit differently.
You know, Jay, you occasionally talk to the parents and I think
mainly it's because of health reasons and they're getting old

(58:56):
and things like that. Lance, you see your parents, you
know it events because of the kids and things like that.
But I had to totally cut off contact so.
And it's what you can deal with too.
You know, I'm really good at compartmentalizing things.
That's what I was taught to do growing up.
So that's what I do. But then I'll cry while I'm
watching a 30 for 30 on ESPN or a commercial about something

(59:17):
stupid and my kids look at me. The tears are streaming down my
face and I don't know why so. But it's nice to have some place
to talk about it and know that you know you're not alone.
Unfortunately, current politicalclimate has brought out the bad
in a lot of people, and maybe it's good now that we see them
for who they actually are, but it's disappointing.

(59:37):
It is. And you know, I will.
I will continue to think to myself, man, if Anne Frank and
everything that she went throughcould have written the words
that she did, which is, you know, I still, and I'm
paraphrasing, forgive me for getting the quotation wrong, but
she made the statement. You know, I still believe there
is good. I still believe there is love.
I still believe that there's goodness in people.

(59:59):
I take great comfort in looking at the communities that are
developing and the networks thatare developing among those of us
who resist this kind of hatred and stand together, you know,
and I see, I see that emerging. And my hope is that I hope that
people can change. I hope that eyes can be opened.

(01:00:20):
I hope that people can begin to see.
That they've been deceived. And, you know, that takes a lot
of courage. It takes a lot of strength and
courage to stand up and say I'vebeen wrong, I've been deceived,
or I have allowed myself to see things this way because they
benefited me. And I try to hold space for

(01:00:40):
that, you know, and I think to some degree, many of us that are
facing the situation right now are there.
We're trying to hold space, but ultimately you have to protect
your mental health. You have to protect your, of
course, physical safety. And hopefully we'll come through
this on the other side. And thank goodness we have, you
know, the concept of chosen family.

(01:01:02):
And I, I would just encourage all of us and our listeners as
well, try to take care of yourself.
Strengthen the bonds you have with your chosen family,
strengthen the bonds you have with people that you know, may
disagree with you, but they're mentally safe for you.
They they also hold space for you, right?
And what comes after that, I guess we'll have to find out.

(01:01:23):
The only thing I would just kindof want to add and in terms of
making decisions for ourselves about where to invest our time,
our relationships. I did have to come to a reality
to understand that some people that are kind of on the line, I

(01:01:44):
feel like I can invest time morewith those relationships because
there's just more connection, more potential for positive
change. And then there are those that
are so far right beyond the linethat I have shared my own
experience. And if relationship, if my own
struggle, my own message wasn't enough to make them consider

(01:02:08):
that maybe the systematic beliefsystem that we grew up in
shouldn't be questioned, then there's I could invest my entire
life and not budget anything, right?
So I just, I just had to, to be realistic about the group of
people that I could feel the most benefit, especially as an

(01:02:29):
agent of change, wanting to makepositive change for the better
for our society, for our relationships, for those that
are minority, those that are less than in, in our system of,
of life. I had to really understand that
that's the group of people that is most valuable for me to
connect with and share and invest.
Well said. And and to quote as you call it,

(01:02:51):
which I think is so wise, the books, books of wisdom.
One of the things I carry with me is don't cast your pearls
before swine and not to call names and by no means, you know,
cast illusions on people or it be derogatory.
But you're right to some extent.You have to have to look at your
return on investment, so to speak, and something is going to
be a great cost to your mental health or your physical health,

(01:03:14):
and very little is going to be gained from that.
Don't engage. You know, it's OK to walk away.
It's OK to recognize when when something is at the moment at
least beyond the point of repairand to lovingly embrace and walk
away. And, you know, even if that's
something you do by yourself andfor our listeners, like if

(01:03:36):
that's something that you're struggling with, I just
encourage you. You know, therapy is always a
useful thing. And if that's not the place
that's convenient for you, writea letter, you know, really,
truly like write a letter to people that you're having these
disputes with and pour your heart out and then burn that
letter. Hurry it, tear it up, do
something, but don't hold that that angst within yourself.

(01:03:58):
You know, let it, let it flow and go.
Let it pass through you see it for what it is.
Love where you can and it's OK to walk away when you need to.
Well, peace and love to all of you out there struggling.
We know it's not easy and just know you're not alone.
Yep, we'll see you next time later.
Bye. All right.