S1E8 The First Time

Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
The Backslider Diaries, The podcast for the faithful, the
frustrated, and everyone caught somewhere between a pulpit and a
therapist couch. I'm T.
I'm Jay. And I'm Lance.
Thank you for joining us. If this is your first time,
welcome. And if you're a repeat returner,

(00:29):
we're glad to have you and thankyou for choosing to spend some
of your time listening to us ramble about all of our
experience with things, religion, cult think, and
everything associated. Please, if you enjoy the show
and you get something from it, we would ask you to do all the
social media things. Please like subscribe, share,

(00:51):
comment. We want to hear your stories and
we want to hear feedback from you.
Also find us on any of our social media outlets.
We're on Blue Sky, TikTok X and maybe Facebook still still
discussing that one. But join us on social media as
well as our subreddit, where we we talk about all these things
more so than we even do on the show.

(01:11):
Great. So today we are rewinding the
tape, not to the day necessarilythat we walked away from
religion, but we wanted to talk about first times.
The moments where we did the first thing, first time that we
did a thing that we weren't supposed to do, that we've been
taught against, that we maybe thought we were going to hell if
we had done so. The things we were warned about.

(01:32):
It made us think if we disappointed God, I'd like to
hear how we felt about it. Were we proud that we got away
with it? Were we punished?
Were we so tore up that we went straight to the altar and
repented straight away. However we handled that rather
that's a secular song, questioning God, questioning A
sermon, kissing someone saying Idon't believe this.

(01:53):
So there's quite a few items that we can talk about hopefully
to be lighter than our last session.
So joined the session on abuse. That was definitely heavy, and
that was our first time to talk about our abuse on a podcast.
And coming out of that, I think we were all feeling it in our

(02:14):
bodies, feeling it very heavy. So hopefully we have a few
lighter stories along the way aswe talk about our first times.
So I think some of the first times that we talk about, for
some reason, music, at least my experience growing up, I watched
multiple videos in Sunday schoolabout the dangers of rock music,

(02:36):
and I was only allowed to listento Christian music.
And so as I began to crossover, like I wasn't allowed to listen
to Amy Grant, for example. Yeah, she was too racy.
Too, too. It was too much.
I wasn't allowed to listen to Petra.
I really wanted to listen to Petra.
So music is a big thing with Jay.

(02:59):
You have talked about the importance of music in your
life. He is a he is a musician as
well. So let's talk about music.
What was meaningful? When did you crossover?
When did you experience something that was secular or
maybe even even demonic? If we thought it was demonic, If
we were you listening to Ozzy Osbourne, anyone?

(03:21):
I, I think I started well, I'm obviously I'm older than you
guys. I'm older than you guys, but I
had a Walkman. I had the Beastie Boys licensed
to ILL and Run DMCI also had, which if I would have got caught
with this, I don't know. I wouldn't have a rear end right

(03:42):
now. But Eddie Murphy, delirious, I
was listening to music. I put my headphones on.
That was my escape. You know, every lyric to every
Beastie Boys song on that album.Music was definitely my escape.
It's been my escape in so many, so many awesome bands.

(04:04):
But yeah, that, that would be myfirst experience with music.
And of course, playing an instrument like I did, I I would
listen to that music and incorporate it into the way I
played in church and sometimes get in a little bit of trouble
because I want to flip my drumstick in the air and wink at
the girl while I'm doing it. So no.
Guilt. Too much stink on it, right?

(04:24):
Right, no guilt. You were sneaked guilt with the
headphones and you were good. No, I had.
No, not at all, because I didn'tthink it was wrong.
I thought that that my parents were being ridiculous, you know,
'cause we had the whole backwardmasking thing that came about
then, you know, the guy came andthey would play the, you know,
play the record backwards and say I love Satan or some

(04:46):
nonsense like that. But I also had a record player,
not to hijack all this, and I couldn't listen to, you know,
regular rock'n'roll. So I was really into 50s and 60s
music that I could listen to. And I also had an Elvis
Christmas or Elvis Christian album, or How Great Thou Are,

(05:07):
which still gives me goosebumps when I hear it.
And when I hear Elvis sing, thatgives me the chills.
We couldn't listen to rock'n'roll.
You know, I couldn't listen to Led Zeppelin or any of that.
God forbid I listen to an electric guitar, right?
But my dad could listen to the most vulgar country music.
There were songs like Rub It In Baby Got Her Blue Jeans On.

(05:27):
Which was his favorite? Yeah, my God.
Anyway, yeah, sorry, I didn't mean I checked that guys that
was. Great music in our experience
was always accepted. That was kind of the same for
me. But my parents did not listen to
country. Like they were pretty strict on
all the all the music. I have one of those, you know,
those memories that you're like,is this a real memory or is this

(05:50):
like did I see a picture? Yes, exactly.
High dissociation. But I have this memory of in the
summer and they do like the brush Arbor or the tent or that
kind of thing. I have such a memory of being
out on that property and burningrecords.
Do you remember the record burning?

(06:10):
There was like a bonfire and it was a youth event and I was too
young. I was really too young to be
there because I must have been no more than probably 8 or 9.
And I remember people and it waslike a big thing, bring your
bring your records that it was about the that back masking time
frame and people chunked in their records.

(06:31):
And I just remember being like, this is so bizarre.
One of the memories that stands out.
I was in 7th grade and my cousin's like 2 years older than
me, so maybe freshman in high school age group, 8th grade
somewhere in those years. And Salt and Pepper had just
come out with push it and she called me.
And this is back in the days foryou youngsters out there where

(06:53):
we had these things called landlines.
And so she called me and I thought I was the only one on
the phone. Unbeknownst to me, my father
wasn't listening in. And she was like, I finally got
it. Because you remember back then,
if you wanted the lyrics, you had to sit there, record it off
the radio, but pushing the play and record buttons on your boom
box and then go through like, line by line, I got all the

(07:15):
words to push it. And I was like, no way.
It's like, yeah, listen. So she starts wrapping the song,
you know, telling me the words, and my dad's on the other end of
the line listening to these lyrics.
And I'm just, yeah, I got in massive trouble for that one.
And it's interesting because I, I have a major guilty conscience
and not just that I wanted to dothe right thing.

(07:37):
I didn't always believe that what I was being told was the
right thing was the right thing,if that makes sense.
But my nature was very much likeI, I want to do whatever the
right thing is. And so I was very concerned that
I was going to mess up. But for some reason, music for
me was like a loophole. Interestingly enough, Now of

(07:58):
course, we weren't allowed to listen to rock'n'roll and all
that kind of stuff. It's funny because my mother is
a career musician. I mean, that's been her whole
entire life, but she does not care for music.
Like she doesn't like to have music on in the car or in the
house or whatever. And for me, like I say, music is
my first language. You know, it's my lifeblood.
It's the mirror of my bones. And I remember being drawn, like

(08:21):
T said, very much to music of the soul era of the 60s for me.
And my dad really liked that music like Otis Redding and
Aretha Franklin and that kind ofstuff.
So I kind of had a little bit ofa loophole and I never had
access to records or CDs or anything like that.
But that was, you know, a big part of my musical experience.
And the other was the country music.

(08:43):
And as T pointed out, we could listen there at a Lion here with
Linda on my mind all day long, and that was fine.
But somehow, you know, the otherstuff wasn't fine.
And so I really did dive into that as kind of like my only
point of cultural connection with some other people.
T used to take me to school whenI was in middle school and he

(09:04):
was in high school. And it was so funny because I
don't even know if you remember this, but you started playing a
lot of like N.W.A and two Live Crew and stuff like that.
That was. Short.
Yeah, that was like, you know, pretty eye opening for me as a
13 year old Pentecostal girl. I remember sitting there in the

(09:25):
truck, right? I was sitting there in the truck
like God if the lightning comes,hit the driver.
Funny now is she is She loves that.
Now she listens to it all. I'm a big Kendrick Lamar fan.
It's a little different, but I've.
Graduated to the cure and she still I.
Do I do? Well, my kids think it's funny

(09:47):
because I'm that quintessential.Quintessential like Gen.
X mom that drops the kids off. Have a good day, honey.
That throws on the Tupac and blasts of her SO.
What about what about you, Lance?
Because I mean, since you were definitely more, I was
sheltered, but I, I like broke out of the shelter.
It's funny to me. Did.
You feel like like the first time you heard something, you're

(10:10):
like, Oh my God, I'm going to goto hell.
No, I didn't have that with music either.
And it's funny, especially beingrule followers.
Those of us that are, I'm surprised we didn't, but it it
sounds like we all loved the music too much to care.
Whatever the whatever the consequence, I think we were
fine with it. You know, I'm so bummed though.

(10:30):
Like I feel like we miss so much, you know?
Like my wife tells me of hangingout with her parents and
listening to like Simon and Garfunkel or The Beatles or the
Stones or whatever. And that bond you get with your
parents over that music too. Because I mean, songs can come

(10:51):
on now and I'll have a memory ofsomething, you know?
And to have that combined with your parents, we just, we missed
all that, man. And there's so much great music
from back then that we I'm trying to catch up on still.
My husband. Hasn't was it would be with
Carmen, my parents. Yeah, because I remember that.
Oh my God. To so many Carmen concerts.

(11:13):
Wasn't your mom like crushing onCarmen, 'cause I remember that.
He became good friends with his mom.
Like we could listen to David and the Giants.
Do you? Remember they had like the best
drummer. Yeah, he.
Was a little Ricky. Yeah, Little Ricky from I Love
Lucy. Lance, I'm curious if you
remember, I think we were kind of in the same spaces when,

(11:36):
like, what were they called? Testament.
They've been in the news recently.
DC Talk and News boys, right? Yeah, they've been in the news.
Actually, I've actually been watching some deconstruction
videos from like their members. It's pretty funny.
Interesting, but I remember wheneven they came out and it's
like, but these are Christian group.

(11:58):
But no, they still were not sanctioned from my particular
branch of, you know, rule makersbecause there's too too close to
the edge. And I'm like, OK, how does this
work? I was.
Older by then. So I, I was OK with that, but I,
I will say this, when I was 20, I had moved out for just six
months and moved back with my parents.

(12:19):
But I did, that was the first time I brought in any sort of
secular music to the house, my parents house and I was 20 years
old and I did the whole Columbiahouse, you know, and so that was
the first time. So I kind of had a little stash
of CDs and I had in that stash George Michael faith.
So I came home one night and my dad's like, I just listened to

(12:42):
one of your CDs because he had gone in there.
He's like looking for something to listen to and he saw a face.
Of course he just Christian PD. He pulled it and he listened to
two songs, didn't think much about it.
That was what faith and father figure and then the third song,
I want your sex. And that's when he realized and
so I got a talking to again. My dad didn't do too many women.

(13:06):
Well, I was 20 backgrounds. He was not happy.
That was the first secular musicthat I remember getting caught
for, but I didn't feel guilty about it.
I was 20. I remember the first time I
heard Father Figure and we were like listening to some innocuous
thing in the car and my mother happened to be in the car with

(13:26):
me and Father Figure came on andit was, you know, those songs,
especially when you're raised like we are, when you hear them
in front of a parent and you're just so embarrassed because
you're like, I do not want to belistening to this in front of
you right now. And it feels like all your
thoughts because we're not especially we're not raised with
the concept of even mental privacy.

(13:46):
You know, God knows your thoughts, your mother knows your
thoughts. And I'm just like, I need AI,
need a shame of a cone of silence over my head so nobody
knows what I'm thinking while I'm listening to this.
Lance reminded me. I think I was like 18, and I had
some stuff at the house and somestuff out.
I was back and forth and I came in and R.E.M. was cranked up on

(14:08):
my dad's stereo. Losing my religion cranked up.
They had found my single cassette and my mom was crying
on the couch and my dad was so mad at me.
And I think he was really mad because he knew he couldn't do
anything to me. But it was worth the risk, you
know? I wanted to be normal.
I was just thinking when you said that you wanted to be
normal and this is something that I guarantee neither one of

(14:30):
you experienced as a Pentecostalfirst.
Unless. Unless there's something I don't
know about, but I I can almost guarantee.
I was at a party. No, it's not.
Yes, yes. I was like 8 years old and I was
at some little girl's house. God knows.
I don't know. Something happened.

(14:51):
And like, we all were like, oh, we're each going to cut a piece
of our hair. And I mean, it was the most
tiny. And I have a lot of hair.
I have a lot of long curly hair.And you couldn't tell, you know,
but that one, I actually was heartbroken because I went home.
I was a little girl and I was like, just sitting there.

(15:12):
And I'm like, what do I do? If I don't tell them, then I'm
lying. And they're, what if they find
out? You know?
And also I was very much like, you know, it says in the Bible,
if a woman cuts her hair, she may as well shave her head or
something to that effect. And so I was panicked, I was
terrified. And I remember T you remember
our little bathroom that we we shared and I went in there and

(15:35):
was on my knees praying and crying out to God.
Please don't let me go to hell over this inch of dead ends I
just cut. And it wasn't even my whole
head. It was literally like a strand
of hair. We were playing with Barbies and
we thought it'd be funny to givehim bangs and so.
Like how old it was like. 88 or 9 And so I went in and my

(15:57):
parents were in their room and Iwas bawling and I was like, I
cut my hair and it's funny now like, you know, I have 4 kids.
They've all taken scissors to their head at some point or
another. And my thinking on that is,
well, you're the one that has towear it so good luck with that
and rock on. But it was a big deal.
They read the parts of the Bibleto me about why that was wrong.

(16:21):
And my father, this was on a Saturday and my father was like,
I need to pray about, I need to pray about what we're going to
do about this. And I'll get back to you
basically like we'll circle. Back to this, you just effort
with you dude. Sure.
Now he was, but you don't understand.
I had such anxiety over hell andlike missing heaven and doing it

(16:43):
wrong and all of a sudden, not to mention, sorry but I'm going
to wave the misogyny flag, but as a woman, there was so much of
your value not just put on your hair, but on being obedient and
submissive to authority and all this other crap.
And so the next day, I'm almost done with my story.
But the next day we were riding in Dad's truck and we were

(17:04):
coming back from church, going down that one St.
Anyway, it was real quiet. And out of nowhere he started
talking about hairstyles. Did you see so and so's hair
today? And this and that and the third?
And then he just started quotingthe scriptures about cutting the
hair. I was 100% certain that he was
going to make me shave my head. And that's what he'd said the

(17:26):
night before, is I need to pray about it and see if God wants
you to shave your head. And that was a very traumatic
thing for me. You know, I don't know, Maybe
that's why I'm still hesitant tocut my hair short.
I don't know but. I was older and the first time

(17:47):
that I realized that my mom had cut her hair 1314 and she I
heard her confess to my dad thatshe had cut her hair and she she
was basically mad at him and forsome reason cutting some bangs
was just like this retaliation at him.
And I don't know why but I went outside we lived on a farm.

(18:10):
I just went outside which I did a lot and bawled my eyes out
because I knew going to hell. I tell that story to my husband
and he just thinks y'all are so crazy.
You know what's funny is I just recently cleaned out my basement
and I found some pictures of my mother, and it was my mother and
my uncle in high school and my mother's sitting there with a

(18:32):
cute little like Chinley. She used to get her hair cut,
yeah. Yes, and she's not only that.
Wait for it. Brace yourself.
She's wearing a band uniform, which consisted of pants.
I couldn't play softball. I couldn't even play soccer.
I couldn't play anything becauseit involved shorts or pants.
And here's my mother in the 60s,you know, the 50s, early 60s

(18:56):
with cut hair and pants. And I'm just like, dude,
somebody played me. Strong with this one.
Oh I have, I have another one that I don't know if this would
pertain to you guys too. The first time I got my ears
pierced. Yep.
Yeah, yeah, I I yeah. I actually got mine pierced.

(19:17):
I don't know if you remember, Jay.
I don't, but there was some girlthere who I thought was just the
cat's meow, I guess. And she's like, do you want me
to Pierce your ear? And I'm like, we do whatever you
want. That's fine with me.
Somehow I kept it hidden from myparents.
That's well, there you go. That's how much my parents paid

(19:37):
attention to me 'cause they couldn't tell I had a earring
and and I had to take it in and out and in and out and it got
infected and all that. I can't believe I got away with
it. My first piercing, I was 18.
I was on my senior trip and I went to a private Christian
School and there was like a graduating class of 3.
Not really. It was about 25, but very small.

(19:59):
And we'd all gone to this ranch in Colorado for our senior trip.
And on the drive, we stopped at a Walmart and I was with all my,
you know, good girlfriends and everything.
And they were like, come on, getyour ears pierced.
And I was like. Am I allowed like that was such
the statement of my life up until about age 37 was am I

(20:21):
allowed to do that? And I remember them telling me
like, you're 18, girl, you can do whatever you want.
And so I called my parents like I collect, called them from a
payphone in Walmart. And I was like, I want you to
know that I'm getting my ears pierced.
And they were like, no, the agony.
And I'm like, I'm doing it and hung up the phone, went back

(20:43):
there and got my ears pierced. And like, that felt like such a
defining moment because that time it wasn't me trying to hide
something or, you know, them finding out after the fact.
Like I addressed it head on. And it was really funny because
in the six months after that, I wound up getting 6 piercings on
one ear, 5 piercings on the other.

(21:05):
And I got my belly button pierced, which was talk about
hypocrisy. I went in and showed my parents
that I've got my belly button pierced.
And my father was at a meeting later on, a couple weeks later,
he's at a meeting with a bunch of preachers and they all went
out after church. And I happened to be there.
And here we are at this table with a bunch of grown men.
And he starts telling them that I got my belly button pierced.

(21:27):
And they're all saying show us, show us.
So in the middle of Chili's, because I didn't know what to
do, when I felt pressured, I stood up and I was like, here it
is. And kind of like showed him my
belly ring which I looked. Back on, thank God you didn't
get your boobs done. Good.
God forbid. But yeah, yeah, piercing's for
me was like, like a big deal because, you know, when we were

(21:50):
growing up, our mother didn't even wear a wedding ring.
And even if fancy no, right. And even if like man, I had clip
ONS and they'd hurt my ears, butI I never let my parents see the
clip ONS. Like that was a after we left
the house event. What about you, Lance?
Did you have to show your belly ring too?
I did not, but I will say first of all, I just thought George

(22:13):
Michael looked so cool with his earring.
I mean in retrospect y'all? I have moments like that where I
think, why didn't I know I was gay back then?
I. Just thought George Michael
looked cool too. Man, I.
Think he does have a dynamic voice, but and.
He's just sexy as hell. Let's be honest, he is so so
that image honestly has always been so there's a thread here
apparently. So I was in my 20s before I went

(22:33):
to go get my ear pierced. And of course, you know, I did
the left, you know, like and to conform.
But so I'm still trying to conform in my nonconformity.
Went to Claire's at the mall andthey did it.
They did the wrong 1 so they hadto take it out and do it again.
The next thing I know I'm wakingup from the floor with a lady
looking at me going, wait, are you OK?

(22:54):
Are you epileptic? Because they thought I had a
seizure, but I passed clean out like fell off this old bar stool
thing into like their little rack of stuff that they were,
you know, selling on my head from where I hit the ground or
hit the merchandise or whatever.So just pass clean out.
But but I went ahead and, you know, I had it.

(23:16):
And back in those days, I was actually singing and on stage at
a Pentecostal church and I managed to hide it because I
bought little plastic sleeves put in to keep the hole open
while I was at church. I even like did it from the
back. So I was pretty good at hiding
it in a way that I could still sing.
That's so funny. I forgot until you mentioned

(23:38):
that. But that was the stipulation for
me as well, was if I was going to sing on the platform, I had
to put those plastic spacers in so they weren't.
I forgot about that until you said that.
Wow. That was the way of getting
around it. And it's so funny now 'cause I
have a kid, they're over 18, butI have a, a child that on their
18th birthday, I took them to get their first official tattoo

(24:01):
because they had been tattooing themselves for years.
And at this point they have a face full of metal and a body
full of ink. And you know, it's just like
that's, that's their body. If they don't like it, they're
going to have to, you know, dealwith it and either take things
out or whatever. Your your two kids were wait

(24:21):
were were raised religious and none of my kids were at all.
My kids. My oldest son went to church
with my parents a few times before we were like, what the
hell are we letting him do? And he, he was like, dad, this
is weird. And I'm like, OK, so now you see
why don't go there. He's like, yes, but my kids

(24:44):
don't have earrings, tattoos or anything.
And my daughters earrings and I just, I wonder, you know, like,
because I really didn't care tattoos, I'm not a big fan.
You know, I don't wait till after you're 18 is my law but or
my role. But I, I really didn't care what
to do with their hair, what to do with their, you know,

(25:04):
earrings, anything like that. And my kids in that regard are
really conservative. Everybody, especially on my
wife's side of the family, were like, Oh, you guys are the
hippie parents, you know, and weare really relaxed about stuff.
But my kids say they don't drink, they don't, you know, do
anything. So it's pretty.
And I'm over here with a literalblue haired multi tattooed multi

(25:27):
piercing. Yeah, they grew up in church I.
Wanted to say that you know of. Yeah, right.
The. Funny thing is, even though we
are more liberal, there is something about your parents.
Like my kids have hidden things that I'm I'm clueless.
Like why would you hide that? They're just.
That's true. Yeah.

(25:48):
It's innate for some reason. Yeah, my oldest child tried to
hide from me that he was a Republican many years ago when
he was in middle school. And I was like, no, no, we got
to talk. But anyway.
Still goes to church occasionally with my parents.

(26:09):
Really. Not something I would prefer,
but I haven't tried to not make that happen.
Interesting. It's so funny because he's not
really exposed to it, but we were asking a little, what was
it like? He says, Well, they just kind of
talked and preached and and thenhe spoke in the holy tongue.
That was his way of explaining it.

(26:31):
But no, that's interesting because that's another first is
the first time you go or or around it, the first time you go
back to church after you've kindof begun the deconstruction
process. And for me, it wasn't even
church. It was, as we've mentioned lots,
our mother's very musical, she'smusically in the church,
etcetera. And my whole family is musical.
But you know, that's really her her language.

(26:54):
And I remember being at her house and she was writing a
song. And there's been many times that
she's been writing something andyou know, she'll be like, hey,
help me with this bridge or helpme figure out this first or
whatever. And she launched into a worship
song that she was writing and itgave me the ick.
Do you know what I mean? Like the words?

(27:15):
How I felt every single time youguys would start up around the
piano singing. Yeah, that's, that's exactly how
I would explain it. It's just like, and it's nothing
that you can do. I mean, it's just, you know,
just the way you feel. There's nothing I can do about
it. Well, and, and here's the double
tension of that. If you've grown up singing,

(27:36):
especially if you've grown up singing with family, there's,
there's a reason why family bands, you know, all the way
from The Osmonds, the Jacksons, you know, all the way through
current musicians who are in theChristian circle.
Like there's a family blend whenyou have a family of singers and
especially when you've been doing music together for your
whole life. And so it's very natural for me

(27:57):
to sing harmony around that and and just know where she's
flowing. And there's something that's
very soul soothing about the actof making the music.
But listening to the words and you know, no offense to to my
mother or anyone else that it's just me personally after
deconstructing those ideas, singing words about
specifically, I'm so broken, I'mso lowly, you know, I'm in my

(28:22):
sins and my depravity and you'reI need you to it.
It just, it was a very differentlens and I was not prepared for
being actively part of that. It just, I felt like, I Can't
Sing this anymore, you know? And there are still times I'll
catch myself singing like, you know, Jesus.

(28:43):
There's something about that name that used to be my kids
lullaby. And sometimes I'll catch it
looping in my head and I'm like,I don't know, it's a sticky
line. But yeah, that was the first I
was unprepared for. Did you ever go back to church
or or sing anything after you'veactively get deconstructed,
Lance? Oh, for sure.
But for me, it was a very slow burn.

(29:04):
So I, I was still, even in the midst of deconstruction, I was
still attending church, but I would find myself doing mental
gymnastics around the lyrics to try to make them a bit more
meaningful. And some songs I just kind of do
it all like he gives and takes away.
Like what would be, you know, just kind of register.

(29:26):
But then occasionally there was a good song that could relate to
like, I can't remember the name and I won't try to think of it
right now, but but at that point, I was still working with
the church that was more progressive.
So they were selective in what they chose to sing so.
Did you ever were you still churchified when the song?
I think it was Hillsong United, which a lot of their songs,

(29:48):
frankly, if you just tell yourself in your head, this is
about someone singing to someone, they're in a relation,
like a man they're in a relationship with or something,
it reads very creepy to me. But there's a line in one of
their songs. What is it?
He loves us. Do you remember that song?
And one of the lines is Heaven meets Earth, like a sloppy wet
kiss. Oh yeah, you remember that one?

(30:10):
And I'm just like, I Can't Sing this like icky.
It's just, no, I don't wanna be frenched by the spirit.
Like I can't do it. Romantic Jesus.
We have romantic Jesus. Boyfriend.
Jesus, Jesus, we have so many different versions of Jesus.
White Republican Jesus, he's real popular these days.

(30:31):
On the Jesus side, do you remember the first time you
played music? And, you know, on the secular
side of things, and you got the same kind of feel that you did
when you played in church, because I do.
I played and I played with some buddies of mine.
And they're really, really good musicians.
And we were just in a garage. We had a few beers.

(30:54):
We were playing some Blues jams.And like, I think we broke into
like a Zeppelin song and startedplaying it.
And it's just, it's the music, man.
And the camaraderie of playing with somebody.
And when you go into something and you're on the same
wavelength, you know, there's just something about it.
And I could have been playing infront of a million people, or I
could have been playing in therewith just us guys listening to

(31:16):
it, and they would have the sameeffect on me.
And I'm like, at that point I was like, you know, this is the
same kind of thing you get when you go to church.
And they do, they, they play, they want to play the music to
get you in the mood, to get you where you need to be.
And the music is a big, big partof that.
And the first time I played withmy friends and realized that,

(31:41):
oh, wow, you know, this is this just, this isn't about, if it's
anything spiritual, it's the music.
It's nothing, nothing godly, otherworldly about it.
Well, that's that's interesting too, because the last church
that I went to, I was very much involved in the music program.
And I have to say the musicians were phenomenal.

(32:03):
Like the musicians that made-up our backing bands were studio
musicians. They were touring musicians.
Like they were phenomenal. And this one guitar player in
particular, we used to have thislittle kind of a runny joke, the
guitar and the bass player and then drums would pop into, but
we'd be in the middle of a set, like a worse set, and they would
drop in a lick from like, earth,Wind and Fire, you know, or

(32:28):
something like that. And there was this one time we
were doing like a deconstructed set and it was just me and the
guitar player. We're singing whatever song.
And he popped into Sweet Child of Mine because it fit like, it
fit the hook. And so I started like doing the
bridge of Sweet Child of Mine. And we're like, yeah, we can't
do that in service. But it was so funny because that

(32:49):
was literally the vibe. It was like the music is the
music is the music. And just to wrap that up, I
remember the first time I sat inat a bar and I sat in with the
band and sang a few Drive by Truckers.
Yeah, yeah. I sang a couple couple of their
songs. And I remember just like,
feeling the energy from the audience and getting when you

(33:12):
get in the pocket with the othermusicians, you know, like it's
truly an otherworldly experience.
I can't. Hear you.
Recently my wife and I went and saw this band and they played.
They played rubberneck front to back every song.

(33:35):
It was a small venue. Everybody in there knew every
song, saying all the words. But the first time I heard the
song backslider. Yeah.
I was like, Oh my God, this guy has been there.
He has been right where I was. I was, I mean, I was baptized,
baptized when I was like 12 by my dad.

(33:56):
That song spoke to me so much. I'm like, that was really one of
the first times that I was like,Oh my God, this is somebody
who's gone through what I've gone through.
I remember too, the first time Iheard that song and it hit me in
the solar plexus. And I remember feeling guilty
because I was still in my mid teenage years, I think at that

(34:18):
point, not yet in my 20s. And I remember hearing that song
from UT and being like, holy crap, that hits like that hits
me in a place I didn't know was hittable, you know, and not
really knowing how to respond tothat, but at the same time, like
feeling so much aligned with that.
And it made me think too, as as we were talking about it and T

(34:42):
this may not pertain to you so much, but thinking about your
first time getting baptized. I was baptized at seven.
I was filled with the Holy Ghostat 7.
And for me, yes, that was my first time, But kind of on that
theme, the irony was I was always afraid it didn't take.
So I wanted to get baptized. Like anytime there was another

(35:02):
opportunity to get baptized or get, I guess re saved or, you
know, refilled with the Spirit, I was always afraid like I'd
reached my expiration date from the previous time of being
filled with the Spirit and baptized.
So like maybe I needed to renewal.
And it was really interesting thinking about it in the context
of that song. I don't know you'll.
Have this process or custom where when people were sick, you

(35:26):
would get olive oil like elders would pray.
Yeah, Olive. Oil and they went through a lot
of olive oil at our church. And.
Our house, a lot of olive oil, alot of foot washing, yeah.
So I. Remember I just for long I
didn't even know you used olive oil to cook.
I thought it was specifically for annoying.
I swear to God I the. First time I saw a bottle of

(35:46):
Pompeii because it was that specific brand Pompeii olive oil
that was in somebody's kitchen, I was like, y'all cooking with
the Lord's oil? What's happening here?
Sorry. That is blessed.
You can't use that. It's.
Special. It's hilarious.
Yeah, I didn't think about that.But what was funny is I remember
once my dad, because there's a scripture that says when they do

(36:06):
that, if there's any sin, it will be forgiven.
So he is basically saying it's as good as baptism.
So I don't have to go guys all the time.
I could just like have someone like put oil and.
Nice and nice, we're all clear. Speak to you.
Remember going swimming with ourcousin and being in the swimming
pool and we'd take turns baptizing each other?
Yeah, for sure. And you'd do like, you'd pray.

(36:28):
And then they'd fall out and do the Nestle plunge into the pool.
Yeah, yeah. And then we'd pretend like we're
speaking in tongues. Yeah.
You know, and we would also likemake fun of people in the church
for our parents, like going to their rooms at night and and
imitate the people that were in the church.
I have to ask, what is the craziest thing you ever saw?

(36:49):
In. Church in church or where?
Well, in. Church.
Well, there were a lot of crazy things, but I think if I was
just somebody that had come intothe church on a normal church
night, because this would happenall the time, you'd think, oh,
it's just normal Wednesday night.
And then somebody in the back would stand up and start like

(37:10):
out of nowhere, right? It's dead quiet or the pastor's
actually in the middle of the sermon.
So I'd stand up and start speaking in tongues and then
it's. An interpretation.
Yeah, yeah. And then somebody else would
start stand up and interpret what the guy in tongue said, and
then everybody would go crazy. And like, that always tripped me
out, man, when I it would scare the shit out of me when I was a

(37:31):
little kid. I hated that.
I was like, because I think the way that that church was for us,
you're expecting the worst. You know, you're expecting
somebody to prophesied that God's going to be here tomorrow
or you know, something bad is you're always you're not
expecting God to give you good news.
You know, it's always bad news. Church to me was always going to

(37:53):
get bad news. So what were you talking?
What the hell were we talking about?
The craziest things we saw and Ihave a couple.
I have a couple of goodies. There was someone at our church
who, so if you're not familiar with the Pentecostal tradition,
people sometimes get very exuberant and they express, and
that this is a male thing. For the most part, they express

(38:15):
that by running laps around the church.
And there was this, there was this.
And they said zoomies. No, the zoomies, not the
zoomies. Oh my God.
Like, I don't like to laugh at people, but that's that's funny.
But there was this one guy in our church and he would see,

(38:35):
you've got to remember this. He would run the backs of the
pews. Do you remember that?
Yeah, yeah. And he would literally like fast
as can be running on the tops ofthe pews, like the little thin
backrest area. And one time he was running the
pews. Don't make me laugh.
You tell it, you tell it. I know.

(38:58):
Go ahead. He was running the pews and
everybody was like getting all hyped and amped up and because
that was like a big crowd crowd getter, I guess.
And he slipped and he fell and knocked the everlitting living
shit out of his head on the Pew.And then he was laying like
passed out in the aisle. And then people had to go pray

(39:21):
for him to cope too, because he had knocked himself out with the
spirit. That was a good one.
And there's another one that I remember, a woman got up to
testify and she was given her, you know, her testimony to the
church and word of an edification or whatever.
And she's like, you know, you have to be transparent in front

(39:41):
of the Lord. You have to lay everything on
the table and she's like, y'all aren't hearing me.
I mean, you got to get butt naked before the Lord, which was
pretty funny. The last one was seeing somebody
at the altar who I guess they were in the process of
deliverance, and they started rolling around and writhing and,

(40:02):
you know, I don't know, acting out the deliverance aspects of
being infiltrated with an evil spirit or something.
And they threw up all over the front of the church and they
said that's the evilness coming out.
Which in my mind, I'm like, y'all have been harassing this
poor woman for 45 minutes. It's hot in here, you know, and

(40:23):
she's diabetic and y'all are. Screaming.
Right. Right.
No wonder she she probably threwup out of self-defense.
I don't know. What about you, Lance?
I know you've seen some good things.
This falls under the first time I looked and thought, that's
pretty nice, but it was in a terrible revival and someone was
shouting, like we always called it shouting when people like

(40:44):
dancing and stuff. And they fell and just rolled,
continued rolling into the pasture that was there through
the potholes, through just all the way to the outhouses that we
had, just a whole band. I mean, that is probably one of
the first times I'm like, that'sgreat, that's great.
Here was another thing that usedto catch me talking about

(41:05):
watching people shout and dance in the spirit was I'm like, OK,
if you take this same beat, it looks like they're at a very odd
rave. But.
Bad acid. Right, Something in the
Communion wine, Communion grape juice.
Yeah, my wife actually. I just want to add to folks
listening because we need some more eviting.

(41:26):
Feel free to come on some of thecrazy things that you've seen.
Yes. That we all have, because we all
find it funny, because we grew up the same way, right?
So have it. I want to hear.
I have one more thing on that note before we shift.
I remember it wasn't the first time I saw it, that it was
something that stood out. And Lance, I think you may have
been with me at this event. We attended a Christian youth

(41:50):
camp and our churches combined for that particular youth camp.
And whoever the speaker was at the time, like his big claim to
fame was if he touched you, you would fall out and get drunk in
the spirit. And I remember teenagers, like,
we went to church. We had the service people, you
know, shouting hoop and holler and dancing around hairpins

(42:12):
everywhere, and people being slain in the spirit and then
being drunk in the spirit. And then afterwards, they were
still drunk in the spirit. And they were, like, talking to
each other in tongues but pretending that they could
understand what each other was saying.
Like, hey, do you want to go geta Coke and change out of these
sweaty church clothes? But it was in tongues, right?
And I remember looking at that and being like, this is odd.

(42:35):
And The thing is, it actually wasn't odd based upon the
framework of of what we were ledto, you know, experience.
But it didn't sit right with my inner self I have.
No memory of this at all. What else?
No. What else was the same?
Camp where the girls went swimming.
Yeah, I figured, but. Yeah.
What I found odd was when you goto those camps, what the kids

(42:59):
were doing in the daytime is what kids do when, you know,
there's not a lot of adult supervision around.
And in fact, my first experiencewas sex, consensual sex, was Do
you remember when we went to Cincinnati?
Yes, I always suspected that. Yeah, we went to the assemblies
at the Lord Jesus Christ conference in Cincinnati and all

(43:20):
the girls had curly hair that looked like sheep.
Remember the? Sheep hair.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I did this with you.
In Nashville. Yes, yes, that's.
Right. My dad was actually preaching at
the conference and I took this girl back to their hotel room
and had my first experience. So I really did like church
camps. I thought they were awesome.

(43:42):
That's really funny because thatsame church camp, I was making
out with a boy from that same church that that girl went to.
It was just a kiss, but yeah, that's really funny.
Like a hotbed of activity. Yeah, good times.
I had no idea, I just. Yeah, man, you would see, you
would, you would see, you know, like kids making out or stuff

(44:06):
and doing stuff that are cussingor, you know, doing what the
hell every kids do. And then they go to church and
have their hands up and be crying and praying.
And to me, that was just to me, I was like, you know, look, you
guys go ahead and do that. I'll play the drums and chill
out. But I'm not going to act like
one way and be another way. That just wasn't my my gig.

(44:29):
Well, just thinking about the camp, I have to think about
first, right? First time.
That camp was the first time I saw grown men naked.
You ever seen a grown man naked?Really.
Wait the summer camp? Yes.
Oh my God. I'll just never forget, Oh my
God. Because I mean, at the time, you

(44:50):
know, I was 14 and there was guys there that were like 1819
years old, older, but I had never seen anybody.
So I'm trying very hard to not not wow, yeah, right.
Trying to and in my head, you know, the mental gymnastics
again that you're like, well, it's because I you know, it was

(45:12):
a new experience. You know, it's not that I'm gay
or not that I was attracted or just, you know, that there was
something deviant about me or anything like.
But that was that was a first for me.
I'm. So sorry I I was I.
Hope you'd just. Be all the gay you want now.
So mad at you dude, you have no idea.
No him. He took clothes while I was in
the shower and I would not come out of that shower to save my

(45:37):
life. I was going to just live the
rest of the night in there until.
Boys are mean boys. Are mean, sorry.
See, the girls were over there in our cabin trying to figure
out ways to use our We were trying to figure out ways to use
our curling iron to burn our hair off so that we could get
bangs and it wouldn't be our fault for cutting it.
That's what we were doing. And for whatever reason, I don't

(45:57):
know why, but that was the firsttime that I really heard my dad
even address anyone being gay. Really.
Because guys would, you know, make comments or whatever and I
don't remember necessarily what or, you know, just in in jest or
kidding around or whatever. And I remember my dad coming in
there to give us a talk about, you know, I know you're joking,
but you know, when you say thosethings, you're letting spirits

(46:18):
in that can make you God. All that, really.
That's where it started, bud. That's where it started.
Right there. You let the spirits.
In on that God. The very first drug I did that
was like, you know, I'd taken a pain pill or whatever, but the
very first drug I did, I did, I hadn't smoked a joint.

(46:40):
I hadn't done anything. I'd, you know, drank beer.
I went to a party and I got guy gave me ecstasy.
Friday, you ain't got no job andyou ain't got shit to do.
And this was back in the day when X was X, You know, it was
pretty powerful. And first of all, I freaked out.

(47:02):
Like, I'm going to die. You know, Reefer Madness is
going through my head. I'm going to take this and jump
out the window or whatever. And I'm sitting there and it's
like 20 minutes later, and I'm like, man, I'm really not
feeling this. And he goes, man, you've been
kind of dancing there in your seat for a while.
I'm feeling pretty good. And that was the time when I was

(47:25):
like, that whole night I felt normal.
I felt like I fit in. I, I didn't feel I'd had no
thoughts of going to hell or therapture was going to come or
anything like that. For like the first time in my
life. I enjoyed it so much.
And I can't believe that I didn't get addicted to it.

(47:46):
I have such an addictive personality.
But that was one of the most freeing, most at first the most
scary, but then the most freeing.
And you know, I, I've done otherthings.
Like first, the first time I went to a club and I walked in
the club, I felt out of place. I felt like I didn't belong.
I felt like I didn't know what to do.

(48:07):
I also felt like I was gonna go to hell.
I remember driving back from theclub, we were drunk, we were hot
and sweaty. We'd been dancing with girls,
dancing with everybody didn't wedidn't care.
We were just dancing. It was great.
Once I got into it and had a fewdrinks and, you know, but
driving back, I'm sitting in theback of the car.
My buddy's got these big speakers in the back and he's

(48:30):
cranking 9 Inch nails. And we're going down the road
and there's construction and I'mlike, I'm going to be the kid in
the yearbook who died. I'm going to hell, you know,
like all these thoughts came. So I had these escapes, but then

(48:52):
once you got, you know, out of the moment or whatever, then I'd
have this fear come back on me and to get away from that still.
Like I've had times where I go in and I feel like I'm not part
of this group. I'm not part of that group.
You know, it's, it's hard to fight through that.

(49:13):
That's the first time that I kind of heard us talk about a
first time where we have that fear of hell.
Other than cutting hair, like out of everything?
That you talked about. No, I hadn't.
I had one to add to. That too ecstasy apparently like
on the same level in some. Way I skipped church.
I was 18. We skipped church because he

(49:34):
would come with me because that was like a sanctioned date, you
know, to see each other at church.
But we skipped church and went to go see Reverend Horton Heat
and I remember walking into the club.
And you know, if you don't, if you're not familiar with with
their work, with his work, absolutely recommend 10 out of
10 if you like anything SouthernGothic rockabilly kind of

(49:56):
moment. And opened up for the toadies.
When I saw him it was. Fantastic.
That's fantastic. But I remember being in this
little bar in our college town that you would both know, and
I'm sitting there with like the X on my hand, you know, because
I'm underage and like looking atthat and being like, I'm marked.

(50:17):
I am marked. I have chosen not.
Only am I. Right.
Not only am I going to a concert, but it's somebody who's
playing on religion and, you know, doing this trope of being
a reverend. And if this is blasphemy and
like, this is the bridge too far.
But I had a blast. I had an absolute blast.
And I don't know, I just remember feeling like it's a

(50:39):
very much looking over your shoulder feeling and to that my
first mind altering substance. Well, no, it wasn't my first,
but the first time that I used mushrooms.
And this was in the not too recent past or not too distant
past, I guess the better way to say it.

(51:00):
And I had gone through at that point in my life quite a bit of
trauma. And I tend to suck it up and
drive on a lot of times and not really process things.
And you know, when I took the mushrooms that time, and it was
kind of the same experience of sitting there going, this is

(51:21):
doing nothing. I feel nothing.
Well, first of all, unbeknownst to me, I had taken like three
times the amount I was supposed to take and it hit me like a
train. When it finally came on, it hit
me hard. And I remember sitting in my
bedroom and looking outside. I had the window open and I was
looking at this tree. And this sounds so cheesy, but

(51:44):
if you've ever been there, you get it.
It was like, I saw this tree being so interconnected and I
saw everything being so interconnected.
And for the first time, those values of like, love everyone
and we're all in the same gang and we're all, you know, unity
and whatever. I felt that for the first time,

(52:04):
so deep in my core, and I just started weeping because I felt
so profoundly loved in a way that I had never, never
experienced. I felt it was almost like a
rapturous feeling of just being held and being cradled in this

(52:25):
love. And to love yourself, actually.
Yes, yes. And it was the first time I was
ever in my entire life able to interface with the idea of love
without there being baggage and judgement attached to that, even
to myself. And I know what you're saying T
like it left me. I was like, I don't want to

(52:45):
leave this place. I want to come back here and,
you know, live in this moment. And it really did kind of rewire
my brain chemistry in a sense, because now when I find myself
getting sort of overstimulated or, you know, dissociating or
things like that, I'm able to kind of call that feeling back

(53:07):
up and kind of breathe into it. And my body very much holds
wherever that nebulous places between our body and our brain,
that memory is still living likeit's, it's still in the same
time space and I can access it, if that makes sense.
It was very, very, very healing,more so than any spiritual
experience I'd ever had to that.Point so as someone that has

(53:31):
continues to deal with depression, anxiety,
psychedelics is certainly an area, but there's a lot of
science behind all of that. The mushrooms and for me, I went
to a clinic and did ketamine inject.
So that's how I did the ketamineand I ended up doing 5 or 6.
But for me, I remember the thirdtime being just completely

(53:55):
emotional, like every hurt that I ever had in my life just felt
like it was all coming out at one time.
I cried for three days after that.
My husband didn't know what to do like I stopped like.
And so when, when you at least the clinic that I was going to,
they partner you with a therapist as well to kind of

(54:16):
help you talk through your experience, you know, as you
come out of the ketamine and ourtrip or however they, I think
they called it a trip actually. And I mean, but basically the
summation of that whole conversation was you have to
feel it to heal it. And that was really, it was a
positive experience, although the experience itself was
uncomfortable. But I think at the end, I mean,

(54:38):
it's certainly that did do the science, like it expands the
neurons in your brain basically as a result of depression.
So definitely check it, outlook it up.
Yeah, disclaimer, for those of you listening, we do not
advocate nor condone the use of any substance in your area that
is not legal. And if you do choose to
experiment with psychedelics or anything like that, especially

(54:59):
from a mental health perspective, please make sure
that you have a safe and trustedperson with you who maybe isn't
participating so that, you know,just in case you need any
assistance, they're there to help you.
But I was sharing this before westarted the show, But something
I struggle with a lot is it's really important for me people
for people to have all of the back story before I jump into

(55:22):
things and like have all the information.
I always say information is my drug of choice.
And so I remember the first timeI was getting ready to go to a
therapist and it wasn't a Christian counselor or Christian
therapist or anything like that.I was sitting there on the couch
and she was like, so tell me about, you know, your
experiences growing up and this and that.
And I'm just sitting there going, this chick is never going

(55:45):
to believe all the shit I have to say.
Like never. She's going to think I'm making
this up. She's going to need.
How do you explain that you grewup hearing people tell stories
of people being possessed and turning into animals, you know,
or like you saw people throw up at the altar or roll to the
porta potties, Lance? Or, you know, like, how how do
you tell the therapist that you were convinced you were going to

(56:07):
go to hell because you cut a piece of your hair so the Barbie
could have bangs and ate? Like, I'm just sitting here
going, she's never going to believe me.
And I found the therapy experience to be difficult
because I keep apologizing to the therapist.
I'm like, brace yourself. This one's going to be tough.
So like I'm trigger warning my therapist and also trying to

(56:30):
like explain, you know, the, themicrocultural dynamics that lead
into the Pentecostal experience of the supernatural life.
It was, it's been a very, very odd place.
And the first time that happened, the first therapy, I
never went back. Like I was like, no, I can't, I
can't. Like this just isn't going to
work for me. And it took a few years before I

(56:51):
could go back and reapproach that.
But what was your experience? Well, the one thing I want to
add about that for folks seekingout therapy, it does you have to
find the right one sometimes. And so don't give up it it it
definitely is a matter of at least trying three different
therapists before you find someone that you connect with
and that you feel is helpful. So my first experience, so

(57:12):
there's decades of my life or myfocus of in life was to not be
gay. So it's always going to, we're
always going to have that in a lot of my stories.
But the first time I went to therapy, I was probably about
26, and it was right after I hadtold my now ex-wife that I
couldn't be engaged to her. Like I called off the wedding
because I knew I hadn't had sex with men.

(57:35):
There's no way I'm going to get married.
So I went to go see a therapist.It was through a recommendation
of someone at work that I knew was gay because I was looking
for someone to help me address that.
Oddly enough, I didn't want to seek out a Christian counselor
because I felt like I knew what they would say, right?
I. Kind of wanted to know more of a
science response. So I met with this lady who

(57:58):
herself was, you know, identified as a lesbian and had
sessions with her and she was always trying to encourage me to
go date. But that was just not something
I was comfortable with. The idea of going on a date in
public with another guy, I just did not seem like something that
I was ever going to do. I was.
Especially in the South. I mean I.

(58:20):
Mean you just kind of want to stay in the shadows.
But I never had that experience.Like all my my gay experience
was just pure hookup, anonymous sex.
Basically. That was the only thing that I
could I could bring myself to do.
So unfortunately, like the firsttime I kissed a guy was the
first time that I ever hooked up.

(58:40):
And I just wish like going back.I mean, it would be nice to have
evolved in a normal way, right as a teenager, going out on
dates, handholding, you know, going to a movie, going to
dinner, experiencing the first kiss.
But for me, it was all just kindof wrapped up in like this just
first sexual experience. And so that was my first kiss

(59:02):
with a guy, you know, So it was nice to have a different story
there, right? That was but, you know, such as
life and that just wasn't in thecards.
But in the process of doing thattherapy, I was also starting to
communicate with my now ex-wife.And when I told her about my
sexuality back then, I didn't know I was gay.

(59:24):
It was just that this was my experience.
I've had experiences with guys. I've had sex with guys.
And in that night that, you know, she lived in an apartment
by herself, we ended up having sex for the first time.
That was my first time for that and everything worked and I felt
very close to her because I had just buried my darkest, deepest
secret, you know, to this personand then was able to experience.

(59:47):
And so we kind of rode that veryquickly and, and within weeks we
eloped to Vegas and got married.That was did you feel just and
tell me if I'm being nosy but sofun.
I live into Vegas by the way, but did you feel?
Any kind of pressure with like, OK, now we've had sex, we have
to, we really have to get married.
Not at that point, not at that point, I just after calling off

(01:00:10):
the engagement, I mean, it was something that I wanted to do.
Like this is my opportunity. I'm I'm completely transparent
with this person right now and I'm able to like live that.
And that felt really, really good.
And not. Yeah, it it's interesting
though, the thing like I remember telling her, you know,
of course I won't have sex with guys.
That's, you know, something I can not do, but I told her

(01:00:33):
before we got married. I'm like, but I don't think I
give up gay porn. Like I literally told said that.
But then that of course became an issue later and everything
because all that fantasy, I mean, it leads to coming out
ultimately because you know, something you struggle with and
all the Celebrate Recovery is not going to get rid of that.
So. No, you cannot pray away the

(01:00:55):
gay, as it turns out, and I'm glad you didn't.
So there's a lot. You're living your life.
Therapy, first time bearing myself, first kiss with the guy.
Like all of that, it's all wrapped up and all of that.
It's hard to tease all that apart sometimes.
So what was your first experience going to a gay club?
OK, it was after I came out in 2016, so I came out in April and

(01:01:17):
I was just going to treat myselfto a drive to Oklahoma to go see
Rob Bell speak in person. OK.
That was just my plan. And while I was there, I wanted,
I knew I wanted to go check out a gay club for the first time
because I'm going to be in a different city, safer to go out.
But right before that. So I came out in April trying to

(01:01:38):
remember the date of the Pulse shooting in Florida.
But it was all right in that period.
And I remember having so much fear about going to the club for
the first time because of the Pulse shooting like that had all
just happened so. Sorry.
And I did. I mean, it was Tulsa, OK.
There wasn't much going on. I went, had one drink and left
and that was spring too. Really.

(01:02:01):
Did you feel? Any sense water, so to speak.
Did you feel the sense of impending hell in any way?
No, no, At that point, like I had done all my deconstruction
before that and my deconstruction basically, I knew
it was OK for other people to begay.
I just didn't think it was OK for me to be gay.
And then it took a while for me to just accept that I could be

(01:02:23):
gay. But interesting, what about
first time in a club period? Like going back to that at a
first for you first dance club first.
For me it was I I got married fairly young.
No, I got extremely young. And the older my kids are, the
younger I realized I was. So my first husband when I met,

(01:02:45):
I was just turned 20 and he was 29 and he had, you know, we're a
generation apart. So he had very much lived
through College in the late 80s and kind of the, you know,
party, party, party era. And I was very much like a
grunge kid from the 90s. And so his thing was like, I've

(01:03:05):
already gone clubbing, I'm over it.
You know, we're not going. So my first club experience was
actually a friend of his. God, I cringe.
I cringe at young me. I was 20 years old and a mutual
friend of ours is his friend that became a friend of mine was
celebrating a big win at work and we'd all gone out for drinks

(01:03:26):
and stuff. So then the dude was like, well,
I want to go to a strip club. And my boyfriend, who was going
to be my husband later, was like, OK, well, I don't really
like those, but you know, whatever, I'll go.
And they kind of looked at me and I, at the time, this is the
cringe part. I was like trying to be the cool
girl who wasn't bothered, you know?

(01:03:47):
Meanwhile, the only club I'd ever been in was to see Raven
Horton Heat. And that kind of didn't count as
a club club. So we're in a major city
downtown and I'm like, Oh yeah, playing it off.
I'm I'm cool girl. Sure, we can go to the strip
club. That's fine.
So we go. And my eyes were saucers.
I mean, I was, there was a lot there I'd never seen in that

(01:04:10):
context. And I went to the bathroom and
first of all, I was like, not only am I at a club, I'm at like
Sodom and Gomorrah right here, just happening live on my lap.
And there had been this dancer who kept trying to give me lap
dances all night. And, you know, I was just like,
no, I'm good. I'm not that cool with the cool

(01:04:32):
girl. I'm nervous.
And I don't know what to do here.
So I went to the bathroom and she was in the bathroom and she
pushed me up against the wall and laid the biggest kiss on me
that I'd ever experienced in that way.
And I was just like, holy crap. And now I'm double going to hell
and I don't know what to think. And I remember going home that
night and like, laying there with my eyes open for hours,

(01:04:55):
just staring at the ceiling, going, do I need to repent?
Like, how fast is the hell traingoing to go?
That's going to carry me down tothe pits?
Because it's not just a club. There was alcohol, smoking,
nudity, dancing. And then I kissed a girl.
So hell bound Express. And yeah, everything after that

(01:05:17):
was fairly tame. That's pretty wild.
What about you, Tina? I guess I could talk about the
first movie I went to. What was it?
Yeah. Well, I think what was kind of
weird is even though I was olderthan you guys and I did a lot of
things younger than you guys, you know, music and all that
stuff, I think you went to movies before I went to a movie

(01:05:40):
because my first movie was coming to America.
And I remember going up to the movie and I had a date with this
really, really hot Cajun girl. Know exactly who you're talking
about too. She was gorgeous.
And so I'm like, you know, thinking I'm just a big stud and
everything. And we go up to the movie

(01:06:00):
theater and I go to buy the tickets in this girl that was
selling tickets. I had her in class in high
school and high school with her.And she goes, you're not 18.
And she wasn't going to let me in.
And I was embarrassed. You know, my ears start turning
red. I know.
Finally got in and saw Coming toAmerica, to me, life, real life,

(01:06:24):
a thing that we have been deniedfor far too long.
Awesome. And if you know my dad the way
we know my dad, I expected anytime I did anything like
that, I expected any minute he was going to pull up because
somehow, I mean, in this obviously before GPS and all
that stuff, he would find us. Yeah, he would.

(01:06:45):
We had a party one time at a hotel and it's talking about
Sodom and Gomorrah. There's like 10 of us in this
hotel halfway undressed, passed out, you know, wow.
And my friend told this story and rest in peace.
He just recently passed away. He's like, I don't know what
happened. He heard this noise and what I

(01:07:06):
heard, my dad had a diesel Mercedes-Benz and I heard it.
I heard and I was, I mean, that car was distinct sound out of a
dead drunk sleep. This is how terrified I was of
him. I woke up and he said, I've
never seen somebody move so fast.
He put on his pants with one hand.
He found some gum somewhere withthe other hand throwing it in

(01:07:27):
his mouth. And like I ran open the door and
got outside before my dad got tothe door.
And he's like, I thought you're spending the night with salt,
salt. And I got in a little bit of
trouble for that, but it was like no matter where we were at,
if we were effing up, he would find us.
And you always had that fear. And.
Yeah, yeah. I always tried to convince him

(01:07:49):
when he'd come catch me at parties.
I always try to convince him I was witnessing.
I'm witnessing at this party because these people are really
having a hard time right now. And I'm just here to help them
know that they don't have to drink those bottles and James
and that Mad Dog and that Colt 45 is not the way and to turn to
the Lord. I was 21 years old, maybe 22, in

(01:08:14):
college. It was There was a big festival
in the town we lived in a big music festival, a fair so to
speak. And my wife and I are my
girlfriend. My wife now at the time had
taken some mind altering substances and we were walking

(01:08:34):
down the street to go from my house to the fair and I had on a
shirt a concert. I'd just been to see the Beastie
Boys and I had on a Beastie BoysT-shirt and on the front it said
Beastie Boys and on the back I've still got it actually on
the back it says fuck all y'all.And I'm walking down the street
and my dad drives by in a convertible like pulls around

(01:08:54):
the corner and I'm like, you know, I'm still like terrified.
I'm like Essen bricks. And so I talked to him trying to
keep my composure. My eyes are, you know, big as
quarters and he leaves and as heleaves he's driving away real
slow and I'm walking backwards down the street so he doesn't
see the back of. My T-shirt, well, Speaking of

(01:09:17):
that particular street where that particular fair happened,
jumping away from movies and we can go back to that.
But the first time I had a man, a man that sounds so weird.
First time I had a man stay at my apartment, I was living on my
own. I was fully financially and
independent and living by myself.
And this dude that I had dated prior kind of, you know, went

(01:09:39):
off the rails and had been trying to break into my
apartment. So this other man that I had
started barely dating, like we'dbeen on maybe three dates who
the guy that would later become my first husband.
I came home and I was really terrified because my front door
was like almost off the hinges because the other guy I tried to
break in. And so my first husband I was

(01:10:00):
dating at that time said, hey, look, nothing needs to happen
between us. Like we weren't at a physical
place of our relationship at that time yet.
And he was like, do you want me just to stay here and I'll sleep
on the couch? Like, I hate for you to be alone
with your door in this conditionand him coming by and giving you
hell and all this stuff. And I was like, you know, I'd
really, really appreciate that. So he stayed the night on my

(01:10:21):
couch. I was in my room.
Nothing happened, Which, who cares if it did?
We were adults, but whatever. So we I.
Cares what you do with your genitals, we all know that.
And he's watching. He's watching you while you do
it. So perform well I.
Don't know. So anyway, in the morning we got
up and I was getting a ride to work and we walked out of my

(01:10:43):
apartment door and guess who wassitting in the parking lot?
Our father. Our Father.
Satan, yes. Our father it it went into shut
up, it went into it went about as well as you can expect.
But yeah, my first time, like having a man or someone I was
dating stay at my home, was my father being there waiting for

(01:11:08):
us in the parking lot. Minutes.
So the first time I saw a movie that was not a, you know, we
didn't even have ATV. So the first time I like really,
really even saw a movie was at my friend's house, had a
sleepover and they were playing Dirty Dancing.
And I was like, holy crap, I don't know what this is about,
but I would like to go to there.And that is when I developed a

(01:11:32):
fascination for back muscles andPatrick Swayze's shoulders in
that one particular scene. If you know, you know.
But yeah, that was that was kindof my awakening into womanhood.
Well, you don't. Do you not remember the rock A
Thon's we had and a rock a Thon is where we would go to
somebody's house. Everybody bring a rocking chair.

(01:11:53):
You would get people to sponsor you, you know, incense.
Like a fundraiser? Yeah, for the.
Charts. Instead of a walk to stay up for
Rockefeller, Yeah, yeah, we'd. Stay up all night rocking in
chairs and we'd watch movies andwe, I remember we got to watch
Footloose and that, that was another time where I was like,
there are some other people out there that think this is kind of

(01:12:14):
weird, you know? I have never identified with a
movie female as hard as I did. Two things.
Nobody puts baby in the corner and Ariel and her red boots, and
she looks at her dad. She's like, I just want to
dance. And I'm like, yes, Ariel.
I feel your vibe, sis. Footloose No, but that movie was
the first time, too. I saw someone use the scripture

(01:12:37):
in a way that, you know, like because the, the theme of that
movie, part of it is they actually go to to the tribunal
or whatever it is before the community.
And they use the scripture whereit says David danced before the
Lord with joy as the justification of why they should
be able to have a school dance. And it made me think, I guess
the the movie did let the devil in because I started thinking,

(01:13:01):
that's a good point. What?
Were you going to say Lance before?
The girls just want to have fun kind of had that same effect on
me, I think. No, I just was saying to land
the plane the final first if youcan, the first time that you
either verbalized or come to some realization that there was

(01:13:23):
that you no longer believed, whatever that is.
For me, it was the devil. That was my first.
I think we've talked about that like that's the first
articulated, but is there some experience associated with first
time that you either verbalized or thought or shared with
somebody that you no longer believed?
I'll go. I had a really good friend who
actually was in the music group with me at the last church that

(01:13:44):
I mentioned. She was also raised as a
pastor's kid and just, you know,one of those foundational people
that we'd had lots of deep talksand conversations and
theological discussions as well.I mean, she'd had her own
struggles and we, you know, talked through a lot of things
and she's kind of what I would call not a old school
Pentecostal. And we were sitting on my back

(01:14:06):
porch. She was sharing with me like
some of the mental gymnastics, honestly, that she was trying to
jump through spiritually with some issues she was kind of
struggling with. And I looked at her and I'm
like, I hear what you're saying,but for me, I'm where I'm
sitting. That all just sounds crazy and I

(01:14:28):
don't believe it anymore. It was, I felt, you know, that
feeling when you almost feel like your face go numb or like
you. For me, I feel everything in my
body very profoundly. And I felt it in my solar
plexus. I felt my lip area start to go
numb. Like I felt myself feeling like
I was going to hyperventilate from saying it out loud.

(01:14:49):
And she's like, what? And she wouldn't let it go.
She's like, So what? You're saying you don't I think
we're talking about hell. And she's like, you're saying
you don't believe in hell. And I'm like, no, I don't
believe in hell. I can't find theological
framework where that makes sense.
And furthermore, in my lived experience as a parent and a
loving person, I can't imagine invoking eternal punishment for

(01:15:12):
a temporal sin on a child who I put here, they didn't ask to be
here and they're just learning about the world.
I can't fathom hell in that context.
And she said, well, then if you don't believe in hell, do you
believe in God? And it was the first time I had
to kind of put my thoughts into words.

(01:15:33):
And what I could come up with atthat time was to say, I leave
space. And this is still where I stand.
I leave space that I don't know what I don't know.
I leave space for the unknown, right?
What I do believe and don't believe is if there is some kind
of a higher knowledge or higher consciousness, it's nothing like
what I was taught in church or raised to believe from the

(01:15:54):
Bible. Absolutely not.
And she's like, well, so do you believe in the Bible?
I had to say I believe there arebeautiful truths in the Bible.
I also believe there's a bunch of cultural stories and just a
bunch of mishmash. And no, I don't believe it as a
divinely inspired line up online.
Do this, you know, to the letterand the TI don't and that was

(01:16:15):
yeah, no, right. And I was fully like, I think in
my feast at that point and my myearly 40s and saying that out
loud. I remember I called my husband.
He was at work. And after she left, I told him
I'm like, I don't believe anymore.
And you know which that his response was all right, do you

(01:16:36):
want tacos for dinner? I'm just like, no, this is a big
deal. You know, we got to go back to
that. But yeah, that was that was a
profound moment. Like I felt almost like I was.
It's like in those movies where you see someone step out of
their body and kind of walk intoa different reality.
It felt very much like a before and after kind of leaving my

(01:16:57):
body moment. Does that make sense?
What was that like for you, Lance?
For me, again, it was a slow process that the thing I want to
call out is as I was going through reading all the books
that we've talked about before, new kind of Christian and really
questioning hell. I didn't question God for quite
a long time. That was came much later, but

(01:17:20):
questioning all the rules that we made-up about sexuality
course again that but you know, also all the other rules against
women, against all kinds of things.
I remember praying almost on a daily basis for a few years,
like I would be in the shower. Please God, don't let me be
deceived. Please God, don't be deceived.
And I would pray that in all sincerity, because I was scared

(01:17:44):
to death and all the things thatI was thinking about was how
somehow just a complete deception, right?
Because there's always some verse I can pluck out, right?
So in the last days the very elect may be deceived like I'm
not heard. Heart is deceitful above all
things. So you know that over and over

(01:18:04):
and over. So I mean, looking back, it's
like, you know, look, I sincerely was asking so.
So, yeah, I felt, I don't know, validated, I guess, and that I
took it a bit slow. It's so funny because teeny

(01:18:25):
listening to your experience, because I feel like I feel like
I did this, like really slow removal of a bandage that's so
much more painful. And sometimes when I hear you
talk, I feel like you just ripped it right off.
She did, you know? Yeah.
Yeah, and it's funny too, because hang on, sorry, but real
quick, just one question for Lance before we switch people,

(01:18:47):
did you ever pray? The prayer I believe helped out
my own belief from that scripture because I.
In that context, usually that came to me as as we were praying
for someone to be healed or something to happen like that.
That was kind of where I appliedthat.
Interesting. Yeah, that was definitely a big
chunk of it for me was if I if I'm doing wrong by not

(01:19:08):
believing, then make me believe,right.
But back to you T What were you going to say with ripping off
the Band-Aid? No, I mean, I know that I've
said that, you know, I wanted toget out from a young age and all
that, but still, I was pretty well indoctrinated.
The first time that that I, you know, knew that something was
wrong and this wasn't really real was about 2 seconds after I

(01:19:32):
spoke in tongues for the first time.
And I was like, OK, I don't really feel any different.
You know, I feel as elated as I did when I hit a home run
playing baseball and everybody'scheering for me, you know what I
mean? And also, I think I'm, I'm on
the spectrum little bit, little,little bit because I really

(01:19:53):
don't like people hugging me. I don't like people being in my
face. I don't like people.
I feel like when people are being nice to me, they're being
fake, you know, So I don't like that.
And I have to really get to knowsomebody.
But when you're at the altar, there's a lot of that.

(01:20:13):
A lot of people are, you know, being fake nice to you because
they want you to, you know, theywant you to get the Holy Ghost
and all that. So.
So, yeah, the first time I spokein tongues after immediately
after that, I was like, OK, I don't this is not the
transformative thing that I was told it was going to be.
But my whole deconstruction, I think, was a lot longer.

(01:20:37):
In fact, it was up until fairly recently, around the time that
Jay was going through the same thing, because I sent her a
bunch of videos that I was watching.
Shout out to Matt Dillahunty. Yeah, yeah.
Matt Dillahunty Pelogia Paul Paul Paulo Gia Sorry, Jesus, get

(01:20:58):
that wrong every time. Just there's a bunch out there
and I'll try to put some links in the podcast description.
But how long did it shout out mainly to my son?
Because my son is the one who introduced me to those things.
And you know, he had been, like I said earlier to my parents
church, he'd seen some things and he had had gotten deep into

(01:21:20):
all these videos and he'd show them to me.
I guess what strengthened my resolve and made me know that
I'm on the right path, that I'm not just crazy.
There's a lot of people out there who are former Christians
who are really into it, who started researching the Bible
and things and then realizing that, OK, none of this is
historical. This is all second hand
accounts. It's not even written by the

(01:21:40):
people that we think it's written by.
Very few of them are. And then when you see how people
use religion to manipulate people, especially from our
perspective, perspective the waywe saw it, hey, I'm open to
proof, you know, and when peoplesay, you know, do you believe in
God, I'm assuming they're talking about their God.
And I'm like, you know, just I believe in one less God than you

(01:22:02):
do because there's a bunch of gods out there.
So, yeah, my son was the first person I, I told that to.
And then my wife, you know, we've, I think we've talked
about it before and she's alwaysbeen agnostic.
She's not religious at all. She's according to my parents,
you know, Satan in a red dress, so.

(01:22:23):
Rephrase that as a woman who won't be controlled by the
misogyny. Yeah, go ahead, Lance, You had,
you had a question too. Well, it's when you said about
the speaking in tongues like that's when you know, and I'm
just curious how old you were and how long you kept that to
yourself. You shared.
That I was fairly young, I wouldsay probably, I don't know, like

(01:22:45):
we've talked in a podcast before.
Everything in my memory, I was 12.
So but no, it was like it was like I expected something more
after it happened and it just, it didn't happen for me and I'm
like, well, and it yeah, that was hard.

(01:23:06):
That was like, because you thinkyou're doing something wrong,
you know, like, I felt like I had done something wrong.
I hadn't prayed hard enough for whatever.
And I still had, you know, thoughts that kids that age have
and. Have you seen the Good Place?
Have y'all seen that? No, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:23:26):
It's Illinois, like, I don't belong here like and no one
knows it, but I don't want them to go like.
No, but that brings up a question too just, and I know
we've got to wrap up, but for me, and it's I'm hearing echoes
of it in different ways from each of you to there was always
this kind of deep fear or anxiety about being an imposter

(01:23:50):
like, and maybe that's why I kept trying to get saved over
and over again. And I mean, I know I did it
right. I did all the things.
And you know, I very much at that point of time, even up
until my late 30s, would have argued that absolutely when I am
in a place of worship or prayer,I am in communion with the Holy
Spirit. I am one-on-one with God.

(01:24:11):
I very much have, you know, I had a very active prayer life
and you could not have convincedme otherwise at that point in
time. But there was this underlying
anxiety that like all my peers have 100% of it.
And I've got like 85, you know, maybe because I could leave a

(01:24:32):
church, I'd leave the service and I'd still feel the, the
whatever, you know, in me or on me or whatever.
But I still very much grappled with how much I still had to
battle my humanness that was perceived as being sinful is.
Does that make sense? It does because I think a lot of
us walked away with a really hard time with the concept of

(01:24:54):
being imperfect. There's a perfection expectation
behind everything and even to this day I still struggle with
just caving in on myself if I'm not perfect.
One of the great things about mydeconstruction process and I
actually did have a therapist give me a pass and tell me it's

(01:25:16):
OK because it's really sick trauma I have found I love to
cuss. I love it.
I love it. I love all the words and I'm a
very colorful cursor with great exclamatory value when I when I
do it, but. I just wish we were British.
Right now, then you could say all the words.

(01:25:36):
I hear you. But I had never, I could not say
even still I pause. I could not say God damn it.
Like that to me was a bridge toofar.
And it wasn't until I again, my adult, my older children were
like in their senior year of high school and really pulled a
doozy. And I was so mad.

(01:25:57):
And I remember sitting there andI was telling my husband about
it and I'm like, God damn it. And then I'm like, yeah, froze
because I'm like, no, there's nogoing back now I have like burst
the the last bubble because I was.
Raised Steamer. Blast Steamer.
Exactly. I was raised to where that word

(01:26:18):
was the ultimate. Like if you said that, you may
as well just throw it away. And.
So like. That.
Yeah, that was a real big one for me.
Was my first goddamnit, but there you have it.
Oh God damn it, it's it's over. I know.
So you have a good story or a good first time experience,

(01:26:41):
please share with us. We would love to hear and maybe
read some of those too when we revisit this topic and and share
those experiences. Because man, we've all
collectively seen some weird shit and we've survived to tell
the tale. So.
Let's tell the. Tale, Let's tell the tale, and
let's go on to have many more wonderful and crazy experiences,

(01:27:02):
because this life is short and precious and there's no
guarantee, as far as I know, of any streets of gold.
So be kind to others, be good toyourself, and create some
fantastic memories along the wayI guess.
A couple of customers along the way.
Right, even the good ones. All right, Well, please, like,
like we said, like subscribe, share, follow us on our socials.

(01:27:24):
Our ultimate goal here is not just to listen to ourselves
talk, but it's to build a community.
And we'll continue to build out our resources.
I know many of you have asked for deconstruction resources and
books and pods and other things that would help.
So we'll continue to build out those resources.
And if you have any suggestions for others on the journey,
please drop them below in the comments.

(01:27:45):
And what do you think guys? Think I'm sleepy?
Enjoy. Awesome.
All right, well, we'll chat withyou soon.
Later. Bye.

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