The Backslider Diaries Season 1 Episode 2

In this episode of the Backslider Diaries, hosts T and J delve into their experiences growing up in a Pentecostal environment, exploring themes of religious trauma, purity culture, and the healing power of music. J discusses her deconstruction. They discuss the complexities of family dynamics, the journey of self-discovery, and the importance of questioning beliefs. The conversation highlights the impact of their upbringing on their adult lives and relationships, emphasizing the need for authenticity and the courage to challenge ingrained beliefs.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to The Backslider Diaries, a podcast about
breaking out, not looking back, and calling it like it is.
We grew up deep in the cultish world of Pentecostalism,
revivals, purity culture, tongues, trauma, and everything
in between. Now we're sharing the stories
they never wanted us to tell. I'm your host, T.
And I'm Jay. This is where healing, humor and
heresy meet. Let's get into it.

(00:21):
All right, so first of all, after last week or yesterday,
whatever day, whatever it was, there were a couple of things I
wanted to clear up a little bit,I guess.
I guess when I was talking, I thought I said things, but
actually I just thought them, they didn't actually come out of
my mouth when I listened back toit.
So one of the things I was trying to say is when I was

(00:44):
leaving, one of the things that was hard is not just that my
whole family was in the church, but they were all pretty much
preachers, either a preacher or had something to do with the
music or something. So my cousins, my uncle, my dad,
my grandparents, everybody was apreacher.
Big old family full of preachers.
And all of our family, friends and associates too.

(01:07):
Like, Oh yeah, I mean, we were, we were the whole.
World. Deep in the cult.
So that's why when I left, I I never, I never have asked you.
And maybe we'll bring it up a little bit later, but I never
did ask you to know what, what everybody thought about that
when I left. I've never really actually
cared. And I mean, I assumed.
But anyway, we'll get to that ina bit.
I guess there was maybe only onething I wanted to clear up.
Oh, yeah. And the name.

(01:28):
We said the name wrong last lasttime.
It's the backslider Diaries, so we're new.
Screw it. That's right.
So I thought yesterday when we last talked, we were going to
try to tell our stories and I think we get it did a good job
of jumping around a whole lot, not really focusing.
So what I would like to do, because your story is a lot
better than mine, I think, sincesince I left so early.

(01:51):
And what I'd like to do today isjust here kind of your side,
because the one of the other things is we are two totally
different people in the way thatwe think.
And we we talked about this today because you're the kind of
person who if you wanted to do something, you're going to go
ask for permission to do it and,and tell somebody that you want
to go do something that you know, that they probably don't
want you to do. Like I'm going to go to a party,

(02:13):
mom and dad, and you know, they're going to say no, but
you're going to ask them. And I was totally the opposite.
I'm a you know, I will go forgiveness later.
Yeah, right. Well, I wasn't going to say
that. My wife hates that saying so I
wasn't got to say that, but. Most wives do.
Yeah, no, but I mean, if I wanted to go do something, I
would just go do it. I'm not going to tell somebody
I'm going to go do it. I mean, you don't you don't tell

(02:34):
the enemy that you're going to attack, you know.
But anyway, so we have two different ways that we approach
things. So for me, when I left, I it's
not like I wouldn't ask permission.
I just didn't show up one day. But with you is a little bit
different. And also you, you had AI don't
know, I guess a different perspective because I think with

(02:54):
the music and everything that you were involved in, that was
kind of more of your identity. And to me, like, I mean, I'd, I
played the drums and stuff, but you know what I was like, it's
really not worth it. I love it.
Not it really makes me sad, but you know that I stopped doing
that. But anyway, let's talk about
you. So first of all, why did you
decide or what was the impetus for you?

(03:16):
Because you were really deep into it.
I mean, you were. Sorry, I didn't mean to speak
over you. But no, go ahead.
Just to jump in with a little bit of back story, I won't go
too far in the weeds, but it's relevant.
So I think largely we talked about this, you know, we a lot
in our lives our our difference in approach and personalities.
And you are a few years older than me and you know, that's a

(03:39):
factor. And also the idea of just, and
we can talk about this like we, like we say, we can talk about
this later. The idea of justice is really
important to me. And so it wasn't just that I
wanted to do the thing or go to the party or whatever.
It's that there was no reason why I shouldn't be able to.
And for some reason, I I felt itwas my God-given responsibility

(04:03):
to educate everyone on those backs, much to my demise many
times. Yeah, But because you one thing
that I did come out of it thoughwith.
And if you hear this phrase and it applies to your life, feel
free to own it because it has been so liberating to me.
You can't logic someone out of abelief they didn't logic
themselves into. And that just would apply to to

(04:26):
many of the battles that I fought in my life.
It's, it's a losing battle when you're trying to kind of unhook
someone's ideas of belief that are rooted just in the belief.
Like, you know, where do you go from there?
I like to say you can't argue with crazy.
Well, that'll work, you know. That'll work too.
Tomato. Tomato.
So I think that my experience was different in large part, you

(04:48):
know, being female. Yeah.
I actually read a post on Reddittoday and it was talking about,
you know, people that grew up inevangelical worlds and kind of
that sort of religion. What were the role models as far
as careers for women? And you know, it's something
that I joke about a lot with my husband now is the game plan for

(05:09):
me was marry a youth pastor. Like, Oh dear God.
Yeah, like that and not my game plan, but like what was laid out
before me, you know, was to be apreacher's wife.
And I didn't want to be a preacher's wife.
I wanted to study science. And, you know, eventually I did
go on to study science to some degree.

(05:29):
But, you know, that was that wasjust such a big part of it.
And the only women who had quoteUN quote, careers that I even
knew about were I guess teachersmaybe.
And those were teachers in private Christian schools, and
the word teacher there is being used very flexibly.
Heavy lifting for that word, right?
Yeah, right. And I knew a couple of nurses,

(05:51):
but that was really it. And I think that, you know, that
was that was a big part of laying the groundwork of what
could be expected. And not to get too heavy with
it, but you know, I, most of thewomen that I knew and observed
were in some form of unhealthy relationship dynamic and
observing that feeling of stuck and sort of like you have to

(06:15):
make of life what it what you get sort of you don't really
have the opportunities to go forward and just change your
life and do things. You sort of this is what you get
and you make the best of it. And that was a big part of it.
There was also a lot of fear putinto me in the realm of purity
culture that, you know, women who went off and on their own
into the world and did things like they were never going to

(06:37):
be. Our mother used to tell me,
like, if you fall away from purity culture, no man will
ever. I love you to.
That's not true, by the way, butI thought it was at the time.
And, you know, there are things that we say, there are beliefs
that are taught and beliefs thatare caught.
You know, and I think often times a lot of the things that
really inform our lives are the things that are caught and not

(06:59):
so much overtly said. And that idea that my role was
to be a helpmate, my role was tobe a support system.
I never felt comfortable with that.
That was never what I wanted. It just took me a minute to kind
of wrap my head around another way of living.
And I think something that's really pivotal to that.

(07:20):
And sometimes I forget, you know, how you forget things
about your own life. And then when you're telling it,
you're like, oh, yeah, well, that was weird.
But we, and I think I especiallyout of the two of us as
siblings, I lived in such a closed world system because you
know, when you were younger and I'm talking like school age,
kindergarten age, you got to go to public school for the first

(07:41):
few years. Right, right.
And because our father liked sports, you got to play sports a
lot. And you?
Know I had an outlet I had I gotsee I had a glance at the real
world. Exactly exactly.
And being a boy, you were allowed to go around and ride
your bike more freely or go to friends houses.
And back then too, I mean, I really kind of fit in more

(08:03):
because I could wear jeans. I could.
That's what I was going to say, that sort of thing.
I couldn't wear shorts. God forbid somebody saw on my
leg, but. Growing up in that kind of
having those ideas around me andall those things, you find
yourself kind of being shuttled into young marriage.
And I was starting to go to college and I met a man through

(08:27):
church that was older than myself and he was 10 years older
than me. And I think I had been in such a
closed, controlled world for so long.
And that's what I was going to say just really briefly, is I
never went to public school up until well past middle school
or, or late elementary school. But, you know, for many, many
years, my whole world was simplypeople I knew at church, our

(08:49):
family and maybe some other visiting church, people from
afar. Like that was really the world I
knew. So I just didn't see any other
ways of doing life. And as I got a little older and
started going to college and things like that, you know, I
didn't feel comfortable with thefreedom of my own life because I
had never been given any freedomover any of my life.

(09:12):
So all of a sudden the idea thatlike, I could just jump out
there and, and, you know, be free and make my own decisions
and all that kind of stuff felt a little overwhelming, even
though I consider myself to be fairly independent.
And when I met this man and he was 10 years older than me and
my family knew his family through church relationships, I
was it felt like, OK, well, here's, you know, somebody who

(09:35):
is a grown up who knows how things are supposed to go,
actually wound up being in a very controlling abusive
relationship for 17 years when Ifinally left the church.
Because during part of that, during that relationship, we
were very active members in the faith.
And in a way, I guess I was playing out the continuation of

(09:56):
hypocrisy and systems of abuse that I was familiar with.
You know, there's a good old therapy saying that says we
don't seek to create what's goodfor us, we create what's
familiar to us. And I think I definitely did
that. You know, we, we came out of
pretty complicated situations inour childhood and I sort of

(10:16):
recreated that for myself without realizing what I had
done. And I did as you were saying, I
did become that, you know, Christian housewife who was
volunteering at the church 20 hours a week and working in a
Christian School and taking my kids to all the things and, you
know, women's conferences. Yeah, putting bows in my kids

(10:37):
hair and, you know, speaking at conferences.
And I became very, very, very involved with the music kind of
things and wound up, you know, doing a lot of recordings and
being on a worship team for a the band was excellent.
I have to say. The music was phenomenal.
And I and I loved the music of it.
I mean, you know, me music is truly my first language.

(11:00):
I was grown to fruition in my mother's womb, as it were, with
her play in a ham and B3 organ three or four times a week and
singing. And that's just in my DNA.
It's in my blood. I could sing harmony before I
could read. You know, that mesh enmeshment.
I really think of the music and the feelings that I would feel

(11:22):
and when engaging in the music. That was my only emotional
outlet and the only place I truly felt safe and that I had a
space for myself. And I think that became
entangled along the way with me pushing to the back of my mind a
lot of the questions that I had about things.
And I sort of was so good at that point due to extenuating

(11:44):
circumstances in my childhood and then later my adulthood, you
know, through abuse, you become really good at dissociation.
And I, I was really a pro at compartmentalizing, like my
rational science thinking, you know, I mean, I have a masters
of science and cognitive neuropsychology.
I, I enjoy science and I would read things and question things

(12:06):
in, in scientific literature that didn't really line up with
things that were in the religion.
And so all of those things like I held in half of my brain and
then the other half of my brain was the part of me that was
engaged in the religious aspect and it's really performing their
religion. You know, it really is.
I believed I had a personal relationship, but a lot of it

(12:28):
was very performative. And in the last, I'm getting to
the reason of how I left. So I promise I am it.
The story matters. It does.
There's context here. As I was coming to the end of
that marriage. At the same time, I was very,
very active in leadership in a large church that was
tangentially associated with, you know, like the big mega

(12:49):
churches, the Osteen group and the Hillsong and like all those
kind of folks. And the deeper I got into it, it
was kind of like a parallel, youknow, like you see in a movie as
my marriage continued to unraveland I, I started having to
really find a place of strength in me because it was really
like, we're at a sink or swim situation.

(13:10):
Well. Let's let's sell it like it is.
It wasn't that your your marriage had unraveled.
It's just that you were finally,you're finally sick of the shit.
Well, it got to the point where it was either like, I have to
leave or I'm not going to be able to leave.
At some point, we'll just leave it in that right.
Yeah. And, you know, and I had two
kids in tow, but that that playsinto it as well because I think,

(13:32):
well, why didn't I leave the marriage before?
Well, I can tell you why. Nobody in my family had ever
gotten a divorce that I ever knew of.
Ever. There was, I had no, no reason
to think like, OK, you can do this.
This is feasible. You can make this work.
And every time I would go to my pastors or go to the Christian
counselors that they'd refer us to or we'd be in a Celebrate

(13:54):
Recovery group or, you know, whatever the the resource was
that I was going to looking for help.
What I was always told was you need to be more submissive.
You know, how are you respondingas a wife?
I was given the book. You know, he craves respect.
She wants love. I can't even remember the names
of it now, the love languages. Like I was given all of these
band aids for what essentially was a beheading.

(14:17):
And, you know, there was some some rough issues there and I
wasn't hearing any voice of, hey, you know, you can leave
like that's OK. And not that you need a voice to
to tell you what's right or wrong.
I was a full grown adult, you know, I could make my own
decisions, but it just took me alot longer to kind of build that

(14:39):
escape route for myself. And having had a lifetime of
having men in power tell me who I was and what I was able to do.
You know, there there's an an coercive control is the word I'm
looking for. And I, I think that when you're
in that relationship with religion growing up, it's very
easy for that to transfer into abusive relationships as an

(15:00):
adult. Well, and I think also, if you
have here in a relationship and you're both good church going
people and you're there every Sunday and the abuser, you know,
puts on this totally different face and then it's just your
word against his at that point. And a lot of people
unfortunately take the abuser side because they're a sociopath

(15:22):
or a narcissist and that's, you know, they have they're able to
put on these facades for other people and what a great place to
hide behind. You know, all I got to do is go
to church every Sunday and smile.
Well, let. Me take it one.
Step deeper to hide. Let me take it one step deeper.
It's not just that other people look at that person and think
that you get so brainwashed thatyou look at how the person

(15:47):
performs their identity. Right, they can't be that bad.
Look how they are. Crazy.
Yeah, exactly. What am I doing wrong?
He treats everybody else great. Right, great.
Everybody at work is saying they're the kindest, most
supportive, you know, would never say or do anything
disrespectful and yet you know the reality of what you're
living with which. PS that sounds a lot like our

(16:09):
childhood, doesn't it? So.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right.
Overlap. Yeah, it's, it's kind of just a
funny example is, you know, you're yelling at the kids one
minute and then the phone rings.You're like, hello, exactly.
You know, it's that sort of thing.
Right. And you know, so it's the idea
of I think, I think there's a real component there of it

(16:31):
wasn't like I had come from a healthy dynamic.
And like I look at my youngest child now of my four and I think
of her with the love and supportthat she gets from her father
and I. So my first husband, if you
aren't aware, my first husband and I separated and he passed
away. And then I actually later went
back and found my my first love,my first real boyfriend from

(16:53):
when I was 1617 years old and wehe got married and had two more
children. I know, right, so sappy.
No, I'm so lucky he's the best. But you know, back to what I was
saying. Like when you truly grow up is
and you can't separate the misogyny from it.
When you're told as a woman overtly as well as covertly,
like we all are by the culture. But when you're overtly told in

(17:15):
your home, your place is to serve, you're the helpmate.
You're not allowed to speak up. You need to be more submissive.
And let me tell you, if I had a single penny for every single
time in my life, somebody has told me I need to be submissive
in the church, you know, in relationship context of that,
that word. Our podcast wouldn't sound so
bad. I would be a billionaire, you

(17:35):
know, truly. Right.
No. And my own, yeah, it's a long
story with that, but that's that's what's pushed onto you.
So I had all of this in my head.I have this person who looks so
good on the outside and my life looked good on the outside.
Yeah, I came and visited you andyou didn't, you know, you didn't

(17:56):
let me know any of that stuff was going on.
And, and I don't want to sound like macho guy, but I'm glad you
didn't because right, you know, you know, one of us would have
got hurt. Right.
And you know, it was it was a really, really tough situation
and I have never I would never wish that amount of mental
duress on anybody and to anybody.

(18:17):
If you are listening and you're ever going through that, just
know, like if you feel like yourbrain is just absolutely
scrambled, I get that because it's the most confusing time and
I'm doing all the things at the same time that this is all
happening. So like I'm praying, I'm
fasting. I'm feeling like what I felt
like on the inside, to be 100% honest, was my doubts are

(18:41):
impeding my faith and that's whythis this recipe isn't working
because. Well, God's testing you, right?
God's testing your faith. You're like Job.
No you don't, dude. You don't know how many times I
would read the book of Job and Iwould also read the book of Ruth
and I would like reflect on whatI should do and how fit.

(19:04):
Like that victim complex? But there again, look back and
reflect like there's so many things that mirror there from
from that type of environment ofhow many women did we know who
just kind of like sucked it up and dealt with it?
And the men were, I mean, God, how many men, like they wouldn't
provide, they wouldn't work. They were always just.

(19:27):
You know, meeting, they were yelling.
Right, right. Well, you know, that's what one
thing just I saw those guys, sorry to interrupt you, but as a
little kid, as I said in an earlier podcast, I read Louie
Lemoore books all the time and that's not what Cowboys did.
When you were William Tell Sackett you, you took care of
things, you know, you took care of your family and for these

(19:48):
guys to feign illness, I thoughtanyway, I just I had no respect
for them and for them then to bein the church, to be an elder in
the church, that just another thing to just the hypocrisy just
like did not make sense to me. No, exactly.
Anyway, go ahead. No, but seriously, like that was
the thing too. Like them sitting there saying,

(20:09):
well, I'm the head of the house,I make all the decisions, but
you go and work and provide for me and you know, XYZ.
Like it just there was a lot of that whole construct, even
though at this point in time, you know, I had two degrees.
I'd been working. I'd, you know, traveled around
the world to various like I wouldn't consider myself naive.

(20:30):
I would consider myself very sadbrainwashed.
Little girl. Yeah, I was going to say very
immature with an understanding of my own empowerment, truly.
Yeah, even though I've taken theempowerment classes in college
and like, you know, done all thethings and whatever.
It's different when your your lived experiences telling you

(20:51):
the exact opposite every single day.
So as this was all happening andI'm sitting there going, OK, I'm
praying, I'm doing the things, I'm fasting.
He's, you know, his condition, his situation is deteriorating
and getting worse and worse. This is becoming a dangerous
place. Every person I'm going to is
telling me I'm doing it wrong. And I don't know what to do.
I just don't know what to do. And so I took my kids and left

(21:14):
rather quickly from that situation.
And as I was driving from the state where I lived at the time
back to where my parents lived. And that was my plan at the time
is I'm just, I'm just going to have to go there and, you know,
sit there for a. While suck it up.
Yeah, you're kind of going from the frying pan into the foil.
Not exactly the fire, but you know.
Well, it was still pretty near the stove.

(21:36):
Right. But no, but it was different and
I'm very grateful. I do have to say I'm incredibly
grateful that our parents open their home to me.
And you know, they really in in the best way that they could be.
They were really there for me and tried to help me with my own
kids and give me an environment and a place to a softer place to
land and stay safe. And I mean, I'm incredibly

(21:59):
grateful because I was absolutely shattered at that
time. And then soon after that, we
were in the separation process and he passed away unexpectedly.
Excuse me a second. Where were you on that day
again? I was actually in another state.
Yeah, that's a long story. But so, yeah, that happened.

(22:21):
And, you know, that was really another blow to my faith where
I'm like, OK, it's not just about me and my my actions and
faith. But he really fervently would
like just pray and cry and pray in tongues and read the Bible
and do all these things because he wanted resolution for some
issues that he was dealing with,you know, that were contributing

(22:44):
to our situation. And ultimately, after he passed
away, something shifted in me. And, you know, people I know, I
can hear the voices of former church mates who might be like,
well, you're mad at God or you're just, you got hurt.
And so you know, that's. Just you never had a real
relationship with God at the beginning.
And I beg to differ. I beg to differ because, you

(23:06):
know, I did the quiet times, I, I did the journals, I worked in
Christian schools. I, that was my entire life.
You know, we were there. You're not the kind of person I
think maybe people could tell from our just conversation a
little bit ago. You're not the kind of person
who would get up in front of hundreds to, you know, thousands

(23:26):
of people and cry and raise yourhands and do that unless you
really didn't believe it. Absolutely no.
Authenticity is is the only thing we have.
And then, you know, those thingswere very real for me.
And I think in hindsight too, I have to say I did feel those
feelings like that wasn't performance for me and when I
was singing and would feel that that would happen.

(23:48):
And you and I have talked about this like one of the most
confusing things for me because there's a lot of stuff I didn't
do kind of like on the regular timeline of life.
I had a lot of first experiences, a lot older in my
life just due to our upbringing.And the first time I went to a
big concert and I remember when I I went and saw The Rolling
Stones. And of course, I mean, it's the
Stones. It's a great show, but like,

(24:10):
everybody is singing along in this whole stadium and it's that
good. There's a lot of Pentecostal
music that sounds like a lot of like bluesy rock'n'roll if you
listen Squinted, but you know, Yeah, yeah, something in it.
Like they, they kind of broke out into a little kind of pseudo
gospelly Blues song and everybody was singing along and

(24:32):
I'm like, why do I feel like I'mgoing to cry and like feel the
spirit? And I, I have felt that feeling
many times in music. There's, you know, sometimes I'm
listening to some. For me, it's, it's stuff that
has that crossover point, like, you know, Aretha Franklin music
or, you know, Sam Cooke or Otis Redding, stuff like that.

(24:52):
And I'll listen to it and man, it's like I feel it right there
in my throat. I feel that that just not of
emotion. And chill bumps as we used to.
Say exactly, exactly. And you know, it was hard for me
to kind of decipher what that was and now I have a better
hands on that. I'm like, well, that's.
Being human, that's a human. That exactly right.

(25:14):
I was going to say we're meant to have those collective
experiences and music is so powerful.
But at the time when I was getting ready to leave my first
marriage, I'll tell you this wasanother.
This was really a pivotal moment.
I was in this big working with this big mega church, you know,
doing their worship team and stuff.
That's a subject for another time.
But worship that that word. That could be a whole show right

(25:36):
there. It should be and it will be.
Let's let's come back to that. But you know, I just kept
getting this sense, like the phrase that kept running through
my head was, if this is really the gospel, why does it need all
the glitter? You know, like in the Bible, it
says it's up to up to Christ that he'll draw him into him.
And if he's lifted up, then you know, and that the the Spirit

(25:57):
gives the understanding and and all this stuff.
Well, that that that reminds me,and this is a good place for I
think you could have mentioned, you told me the other day that
you had gone to rehearse for a church.
Yeah, you got to, you got to mention that because that's
exactly, you know, that fits in perfect.
So the pastor of the mega church, his wife is a very well

(26:19):
known vocalist and made several albums and has some famous a
famous sibling and in that worldand a lot of songwriting and
music. And we did, we played some great
music and she's a phenomenal vocalist.
She's super nice. Nothing negative to say in that
regard personally. But they were very, very
interested in growing the churchand they'd become real devotees

(26:42):
of also the prosperity gospel. And they were really wanting to
be like the next big Mars Hill or, you know, Saddleback Church
or that kind of witch to you. You've been out of this world
for a long time. So you're like, what is that?
I just know about the prosperitygospel and that's that's like
army intelligence, you know, those are two words that don't

(27:02):
go together. They don't go together at all
doing this big church thing. I'm doing the music.
The music was phenomenal. And that that's really what for
me was the grounding place. That was the part that despite
all of my questions, all of my doubts, all of my science versus
story kind of battles in my headwould boil down to the fact that

(27:23):
when I was had my eyes closed and was in this music, that I
truly felt something transformative and.
That was really the the only wayyou could express yourself.
The only way, the only way. And you know, it felt profound
and to be, I think also it was like such a place of emotional

(27:44):
release. You know, I was living in a
situation where it was very unsafe.
We'll just say like it is, it was very unsafe.
And to be able to just be in a place and sort of cry and pour
my heart out. And the idea is so intoxicating
that like, you can just leave itall on the altar.
You can pour out all your pain, that it's not without a purpose,

(28:05):
that it has somewhere to go, right?
And that the pain is going to betransformed in your life, you
know? And we all get to heaven.
Exactly. And that you know, there's going
to be a redemption moment. I mean, God that I remember
standing on the stage singing the song called Redemption Song.
And like, those words for me weren't just words and music,
they were calls and cries for help.

(28:27):
And, you know, that was a big part of it.
But some in this church. And, you know, I've been going
there for several years and now I'm, you know, kind of a
leadership position with the music and all these things.
And we were preparing for a big event and we'd had a sound check
that afternoon. I think we were going to be
recording and that particular thing.
So we, we went, we had our soundcheck.

(28:48):
You know, everybody got it together.
We got our set for the night nailed down.
And as we were preparing to leave, one of the people in the
leader, like the high church leadership team, made the
comment. Don't forget, this is an
outreach event. When you come back tonight, make
sure you guys look sharp. Make sure you look sexy.
Jesus Christ. And I was like, it just struck

(29:10):
me wrong. And to be honest with you, it
wasn't the first time I'd heard that sentiment.
I mean, they were bringing in people to airbrush our makeup
for us before church. We had coordinated out.
We had a designer not that wouldmake our outfits, but that would
like, for each one of us, give us suggestions of here's the
colors we're wearing for this day.
This is what looks best on you. You need to wear this kind of an

(29:33):
outfit. I mean, like we had people
telling us how to do our hair. There were agents HD cameras
with like the big, big screens, you know, that was the pretense
was, well, you need to look right because we're we're
streaming this, we're recording this.
This is being broadcast. And I understand that for TV,
you want to, you know, of courseyou want to look good and you
want to represent whatever you're representing.

(29:55):
You want to look nice. You don't want to look like a
bum, right? But sexy.
Is different. Well, but.
And I've thought about that a lot because given the context of
the city where I was at the time, it was so much part of the
culture that it didn't register with me in the same way.
Perhaps some of those things that like it doesn't completely
throw you off, but it stops you for a minute and you're like,

(30:16):
what? Double take, yeah.
Exactly. So I remember I went home, I got
ready, I got my kids fed and ready to go back because of
course, the kids, you know, had to go with me.
And I will say they had excellent children's stuff and
they were very good about security.
So kudos for that. Something our childhood missed
out on sorely. But as I was getting ready to
leave, I put the kids in the carand my neighbor was like, oh,

(30:39):
girl, you look good. Are you going out to the club?
And I was like, I'm going to church.
Clubbing for Jesus just for. So it it really like the veil
slipped off, you know? Well, especially the way we grew
up like that's that's. Like, God, it was a 180.
Yeah, no, I wasn't even allowed to wear a Vaseline on my lips as
a child or as a teenager. Like, no, it was such a 180, but

(31:03):
it. Turns men on that Vaseline on
your knife. I got to have those chapped
lips, but you know, it was just so weird.
And so that really started what I look back on as my
deconstruction. That was really the first place
where I'm like, wait a minute, why the whole prosperity?
It's like, and once the thread started to pull of the
prosperity gospel and me realizing this is so

(31:26):
transactional, like what's the point of having a relationship
with a God if basically it's a tally of how much tithe I pay
and sort of like a slot machine,like insert coin here, pull
prayer level will ever get result.
You know, and like the whole idea they preached a lot about
your favorite of God. And I'm like, wait a minute.
So are you telling me like the kid, they're in Africa dying of

(31:49):
dysentery, Are they not favored by God?
How does this work? So I'm getting the great parking
spot because, you know, I'm God's favorite because I paid my
tithes last week. So therefore I can find a
parking spot at the grocery store.
Jesus is Republican. He didn't like brown people
either. No.
Well, here's the irony. We actually had this musician

(32:11):
named Michael Gunker come and perform with us, and he actually
has a song called White Republican Jesus.
And I'm like, dude, I don't think you all know who you
invited, who he actually wound up deconstructing from the faith
as well. And get this, he went to the
university, you know, the music university in our hometown.
That's where he went to school. Yeah, a small.

(32:32):
World people went. There Yeah, I know, right.
So so that really started the process.
So then I left my marriage, my first husband passed away.
I am now a 37 year old widow with two kids who are very
traumatized by the events that happened beforehand and then his
very abrupt passing. And I'm just sitting there

(32:54):
going, I don't even know. Like I've been very heavily
brainwashed and controlled for along time and I don't even know
what I'm doing. And so we moved and and that
stopped the church going at the time, it just felt too raw.
It felt too close to everything.And frankly, I was doubting
everything. And one day.
Luckily too, then our parents weren't, I wouldn't say weren't

(33:16):
as involved in the church, but they didn't have their own
church. So you weren't under any
pressure to, you know, go there and perform and, you know,
right? And they'd still ask me, you
know, constantly to go to churchwith them, which I did.
A couple of times and like if I wasn't there because I was
living with them at the time with my kids and you know, if I
wasn't in town, if I was out of town working or something, they

(33:36):
would take my kids. Which my kids have their own
stories to tell and we should get them on here because they
saw some things. But it's another story I feel a
lot. Worse than just Fox News on all
the time. Yeah, right.
Which is its own thing. But during that time, I think of
really being free for the first time of number one, worrying
about my safety and my children's safety kind of on the

(33:57):
24/7 level and having that stress and starting to heal a
little bit from that, or at least recognize the wound.
Starting to hear my own thoughtsfor the first time in a long
time. Not being told at church, at
work, in my friendships constantly that, you know, that
this was the only way to think and be in that this was the only

(34:19):
solution to my party. Just all of the whole system.
It started to open up my mind and and to be honest with you
too, I met some people who were the best Christians I'd ever met
who would never darken the door of a church, if that makes
sense. Yeah, yeah.
And. Well, I think that's about the
time you reached out to me too. And, and yeah, I started, I

(34:39):
mean, we talked through that. I started also pointing you to
like some of the videos like we discussed before Matt Delaney
and yeah, I just really, it was nice to hear somebody that was
actually really into it. Like he was, he was an actual
preacher, you know, and, and theway he explains things a lot
more articulate than I am. It made so much sense and, and,
and he was able to put into words what I was thinking some

(35:03):
of the the phrases and things hesaid.
It's just like, man, you know, Iwish I could, I could say that
that way. In a weird way, it's like
therapy. Like one of the great things
about therapy, besides just kindof unpacking things and having
to say them out loud, is you getthe language, which, you know,
we often malign it in our modernmoment as therapy speak.

(35:24):
But there's some value to like being in a place where somebody
else is giving you the language to say the things you don't know
how to say. And that's.
When the first the first time I heard religious abuse.
Right. You know I.
Was like, holy shit, yeah, that's like.
That explains a lot. Wow, that's me.
And if if you guys haven't heardabout that, Google it.

(35:45):
I won't go into it, but yeah, it's it's a thing.
Or go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.Sorry.
It's, it's the thing and it's it, it's really a painful thing
and it's nice to be able to havesomewhere you can talk about it
or hear other people talk about their situation.
And it's like you and your relationship.
You know, you like, you think you're crazy.
It's the same thing here. It's.

(36:06):
Like it's validation. Like you're the crazy one.
So right, right. No, it's validation.
No, no. No, no, that's a great point and
I absolutely 100% agree. I had to get to a place where I
could hear my own voice, not be afraid of that voice.
And frankly, a place place whereI'd kind of lost so much in my

(36:26):
life that it wasn't about carving things out.
It was like looking at the the rubble and deciding what fit
and, and what could build it back.
And you know, like I said, I metsome great people who did all
the wrong things. You know, they drank and said
bad words and did this and that.But we're the best Christians
I've ever met because they trulylike with their life.

(36:48):
They were living the fruit of the spirit.
They were living kindness and forgiveness and long-suffering
and peace and joy and all these things, whereas the people that
were saying all the Bible words were living the exact opposite
of that and what I could see in their life.
This is where, and I maybe I didhear this on one of Matt
Dillahunty's, I don't know, but it was around this time that the

(37:10):
three questions came into my head, right?
And and I'm sure. I heard this about that, yeah.
What are your three questions? OK, this was really the moment
for me and I hope I can say it right and not get myself
confused because you know how itis.
But it was if God is all good, right?
No, no, I'm sorry. If God created all things, then
who created evil? If God is all good, how could

(37:33):
God create evil? And if God is all knowing and
knows that evil exists and can change evil, why not?
Because either answer either takes away the argument of
omniscience, omnipresence, or, you know, the other thing, I
can't remember, but it was like like kind of like one of those,
which one of those guys do you want to be like, if God made

(37:53):
everything, then where did evil come from?
It was either created or allowed, right?
And if God is creating or allowing evil, then how is God
still all good? And if the answer is that, well,
God has to allow evil, then how is God all powerful?
And like it's, you know, it kindof is like that episode of the
Office where they're all the episode ends and they're all

(38:13):
like sitting there pointing finger guns at each other,
right? It's the Batman.
No the Spiderman me. Spiderman Yeah.
Yeah. That reminds me of the other
quote that Matt Dilani said thatreally, you know, it was
something that I thought about along time.
I just couldn't put it into words.
Right. And it's God sacrificed himself
to himself to serve as a loophole for roles he made

(38:36):
himself. Right.
No, exactly. Yeah.
And it was and, and I discoveredmagical thinking in the context
of OCD and I realized, my God, so much of the stuff that I have
done or, you know, kind of tracked with has largely been
like a function of magical thinking OCD.

(38:56):
You know, if I do this and this and this, then that, you know,
God, give me a sign for this. Or I felt like the Lord is
calling me to fast for seven days or I need to do this, this
to feel like. So if, if you honestly, if
there's anybody listening and you feel like trapped sometimes
by those thought processes, please investigate magical

(39:17):
thinking OCD. Because what I learned is while
many of us may not have clinicalOCD or things like that, when
you are part of a closed group and part of a, a cult think
group, especially from childhood, you develop magical
thinking tendencies and it can be really destructive in your

(39:38):
life. Like, you know, there's a
scripture that says any negativethought that you have, like cast
it from you or resist the devil and he'll flee from you or, you
know, all these kind of axioms that we use.
And I didn't realize it had become so ingrained in me that I
would be like whispering a little prayers, you know, I'd
pass it or like, God bless him or help me.

(40:00):
And and when you stop and you pull back from that and you
realize like, this is magical thinking.
Things like, you know, if you had a job interview, you can't
talk about it because if you do,you won't get the job.
You'll jinx. It even do silly things, you
know that I well, I can't sit atthis area on the couch because
if I do, the Cowboys are going to.
Lose. I was going to say, should we
talk about football here? Yeah, no, but there are all

(40:22):
kinds. When I when I was young, if I
didn't turn around three times before I turned off the light,
Mom and Dad would die. So.
Right, right. You know it's.
All kinds of crap like that thatgoes on in your head.
And for me too, the way a lot ofthat shake shaked out, shook
out, whatever what that looked like was, you know, there's
along with prosperity gospel, a big part of that is this belief

(40:45):
that the tongue has power. And if there's anybody, again,
if there's anybody out there that is listening and you've
been part of the church system in the last 20 years or more,
you're very familiar with this. I got the Beth Moore studies
about and what's her name, The battlefield of the mind.
I can't think of her name right now.
I know somebody knows it. I can't think of it, but yeah,

(41:08):
the battlefield of mind and the idea that as you speak it, so it
shall be as on heaven as on earth, you know, and the power
of the tongue, and the tongue islife and death.
Joyce Myers. That's thank you.
Good God, thank you. Yes, Joyce Myers.
Yeah, exactly. Boy, that takes me back.
But I would I would do Bible study with Joyce Meyers and, you

(41:29):
know, Beth, whoever I just said all the time, Beth Moore, Beth
Moore was the other one and I'd read their books and, you know,
OK, I just need to reframe my thinking and I've got to think
positive thoughts and think uplifting thoughts and speak it
as though it were, you know, in larger territory and the prayer
of Jay. But like all of these things,
all the books, all of the all ofthe positive Joel Osteen isms, I

(41:53):
did it all. I tried it all.
And there was so much of that that just twisted into my head
that it was hard to call things the truth because that became
conflated with, well, you're thinking negatively.
The enemy's going to know your thoughts and use those against
you. Don't even put that out there
because the enemy can use that against you.
You know what I mean? Like this was such a way of the

(42:15):
life that I wouldn't even be able to say, you know, hey, I'm
miserable and I'm in an abusive,dangerous marriage with
situations that are far beyond on my pay grade and I'm really
afraid and need help. You know, I couldn't say that.
So I had to be like, well, you know, things are challenging,
but God is good. The devil is a liar.
And you know, there's grace for those that press forward and

(42:37):
like, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens
me. And that's how you're trained to
where you're not even really processing anymore.
You're sort of just like filtering through and then
coming up with the Christian algorithmic answer for this
situation. Well, that's one thing I've I've
wanted to ask you is like, so weall know that you're smarter

(42:59):
than me. You have like 15°.
No seriously, you are. You're very smart.
Thank you. Thank.
You I get by whatever. I don't trip over myself.
Yeah, right. But that's my wife and I have
talked about it in the past, youknow, and she's like, your
sister is so smart. I just don't understand how she

(43:22):
can be caught up in that. And you know, I'd be like, well,
you know, it's you grow up, you're indoctrinated.
It's a cult. You when your parents sit there
every day and tell you something, I mean, they tell you
the Cowboys are the greatest team on earth and they there was
the greatest team on earth. But when you're literally your
parents tell you something that it's true and especially
something that is such a that involves eternity, you know, I

(43:46):
mean, when I was young, I thought I didn't think I was
going to make it past 18. Not that I was going to die in a
car crash or a plane crash or anything, but the world's going
to end, you know, which affectedthe way that that I thought
about the rest of my life, the way that I prepared for the rest
of my life. Unfortunately, you know, there
were things I probably would have done a lot different, but

(44:07):
you know, your parents tell you the world's going to end and
what's really the use of studying, what's really, you
know, what's really the use of preparing for anything like
that. Absolutely.
And what was my point? I don't remember.
Absolutely. And and to that end too, you
know, I thought the same thing. And I remember being in church
services as a kid crying becauseI'm like, I don't want the

(44:29):
rapture to happen before I have a chance to live.
Yeah, and that's the you would see how happy these people world
at the world was going to end. And you're like, well, yeah,
you're happy. You're old.
And they're probably like 40 something.
They were old. But in my you know, I was like,
you've lived your life, man. You've got to have kids, you've
got to have sex, you've got to drink, you've got to got to

(44:50):
explore. And travel this town.
Right, I'm not going to get to do that.
My world's going to be over and everybody's going to be happy.
But you know what, I and that was my, my point.
My question was, was from the time I was really young, even
when, you know, going to church and things like that, it would
give me the heebie jeebies, for lack of a better word.
Like. And when there were sometimes

(45:11):
when everybody would be at the house or over somebody's house
and everybody be gathered aroundand singing and, you know,
singing and worshiping. And I don't know if you noticed
I always was like gone, you know, I took off because it to
quote what my kids would say, itwas cringy to, you know, and it
didn't feel real, did feel genuine.

(45:32):
I have had more as we were talking about before, more real
feelings. I actually was at a head in the
heart concert at Red Rocks and cried like tears streaming down
my face more than anything I've ever felt at a church.
And it wasn't the, you know, it wasn't anything that I ingested
making me like that. It was the music.
It was the place. And I was actually the song

(45:53):
brought back feelings of a friend of mine who passed away
way. And it just, you know, I had
more of an honest feeling there,more of a connection with people
I didn't even know. Me and my wife, you know, with
all these thousands of people atRed Rocks then I ever had at a
church. But that's.
Everything there felt just so fake.
You know, people were there not because they wanted to be at

(46:16):
church, It was because they didn't want to go to hell or
because they had such trauma in their life previously that, you
know, they had to do a 180. They had to go totally the other
direction. And just like a a where you have
to look to, you know, this higher power, you need something
when you're in that situation tolook up to, to guide you.

(46:37):
And unfortunately, you know, people do need that.
But I think religion and preachers and these narcissists
kind of people, these money hungry bastards are taking
advantage of these people that are in these dire situations.
And it's really sad. To that.
From our perspective, sorry, butfrom our perspective, we have

(46:58):
seen behind the altar, you know,and I think it's something that
that both of us just decided, you know, this, this isn't as
real as we thought it was. And people are being used for
other people's game and we don'twant to be a part of that
anymore. So no, that that's very well
said and very true. I think to big point of what

(47:21):
you're saying, you don't know you're in a cult while you're in
a cult, you know? You don't know you're in a bad
relationship until you're out ofa bad relationship.
Right. Or, you know, it's sort of like
in that this is such a silly example, but you know, when you
leave your house, like you go for vacation or you go away for
the weekend or something and youcome back and you're like, it's

(47:43):
our house smell. Right and.
When you live in your house, youdon't smell your house really
hopefully, excuse me, but when you come back, you smell your
house, smell the things that we're surrounded in, you know,
we tend not to be as aware of. I think honestly, and again, I'm
not trying to malign our parentsfor this, for this particular

(48:04):
thing, but just in the context. Of being right.
In the context of being an adultnow and, and holding that
responsibility of my children with such gravity, I feel that
it's really cruel to take a child who's so fresh into this
world and impress upon them suchrigid forms of belief or such

(48:27):
rigid ideas about things and, and neuter their ability to
question safely because they won't know any different.
You know, I try to, again, I tryto remember that now and looking
at compassion with people who, in my opinion, are currently
caught up in cultish thinking because that thinking doesn't
just have to be about religion. But, you know, they're caught up

(48:48):
in that. And it's like somebody who's
selling Amway or Mary Kay, like they don't get it until they're
out of it. And then they're like, oh,
maybe, you know, maybe that wasn't the biggest best idea.
I could heard a good term, somebody say, I forget who, I'll
remember later. But you know, in Christianity,
when you're really in it, you have all the confidence in the

(49:08):
world and none of the curiosity,you know?
Well, and that that you. Have all the confidence that
you're right and none of the curiosity of questioning
anything. Right.
And I think the final like that leads me to my next point, you
know, sort of my my final answer, as it were.
So after all of those things that happened, I'd left my
marriage, you know, he'd passed away.

(49:29):
I was trying to put myself, my thoughts, my ideas back to I was
even trying to figure out like, what color do I like?
You know, I don't know what color furniture do I want?
I have no idea. I've got no experience with
making any decisions or thoughtsor whatever for myself.
And so sort of like during that process and just thinking next

(49:50):
years or so that went by, I remarried and found myself
expecting a very much of a surprise baby and Fertile
Myrtle. I know, right?
Those last two, those last two surprises were really surprises.
But I'm thrilled that they're here.
But yeah, they were definitely surprises.
So my third baby was. Diagnosed.

(50:11):
Done. We could.
Have I told him that today? I was like, we could have been
in a Jeep somewhere on a beach. No, it's great.
It's fun. My third baby was diagnosed with
Down syndrome when I was not toofar along.
And right before that, in Full disclosure to the world, I was
pregnant when I got married for the second time.

(50:34):
And. You Sinner, I know you, Jezebel
Scarlet Letter. Well, I was.
Here's the context. I got knocked up by my high
school boyfriend at age 40, so Itold you I was a late bloomer.
I knocked up my college girlfriend, so hey there you.
Go and we I mean, at this point,I had already been a widow, you

(50:55):
know, I'd already been a widow, a single mother and almost
divorcee like I had not had an easy relationship trajectory.
And my parents of all people knew this.
And here I am back with this manwho was, you know, my first love
and just truly like the sweetestman.
I told someone today like he honest to God would crawl
through hell just to bring me a cool drink if I ask him.

(51:17):
He's just the most precious person.
It would just take him a minute,he would take.
Him a minute and he'd get there and with a smile.
And so here I am, like starting my life.
My kids, my older kids love thisguy.
You know, our families have known each other because we
dated when we were younger. And it's just a very sweet
story. And at our rehearsal dinner, we

(51:39):
let them know his surprise. We thought we were all done
having kids in the family, but surprise here I'm having another
one. I'm not surprised.
I remember. I think you had a party when you
were 18 and I remember. You don't need to talk about.
Anything. Oh, never mind.
OK. Yeah, go ahead.
We can save them. No, anyway.
And you know, it's not like we were babies.

(52:01):
We were both fully employed. I owned a home.
Like, I had kids, you know, going to school and I was a
career person and so was he. And like we were 40 or almost
nearby, whatever their response,you would have thought that, you
know, I don't know, you would have thought that I had just

(52:22):
like just set fire to a team of puppies or something.
It was, it was very eye opening because like, you know, I wasn't
a teenager sitting there puttingobstacles in my path or having
to face a lot of challenges. Like we were financially
solvent, mature adults who had loved each other for decades and
had reconnected and found each other.

(52:44):
And now we're having not only only a wedding and a place of
healing and my children that hadbeen so traumatized or welcoming
him into our family, but now we have a beautiful baby on top of
that. And that wasn't how they viewed
the situation. And if you remember, you were
thinking about, we might have toask you to step in and and

(53:04):
officiate our ceremony because. That would have been been really
weird, like. Shortly after after that we
found out that our boy was diagnosed with Down syndrome and
would have some heart challengesand other things.
And here was the difference. The side of the family that
wasn't in the cult came to me with love and with support and

(53:24):
with he's going to be amazing and we're here to help support
you guys and we can't wait to welcome him.
And the other side of the familycame from the perspective of
this is something that God needsto heal and solve and fix.
And it was, it hit me real different.
I'll just leave it there and sayspecial needs child.
You understand that that twist of the And, you know, even still

(53:49):
in language that's put forward, it's, well, we're praying for
his total restoration. And I'm like, he's probably the
most restored soul there is. Yeah.
He's got the happiest life, man.I know.
You know, he's he doesn't he doesn't care.
He wants to watch his videos andeat his fruit and he's the
happiest dude you know. Wow listen to music.

(54:11):
He's always happy to see me. If you know you've had a shit
day and you walk in and you see him, you can't be as sad
anymore. No.
He gives you a hug? Yeah.
It's just he's the best. He's the best.
My kids. My kids love him.
The other day he called me like 50 times.
He Facetimed me like 50 times. In a row and.

(54:32):
My sons were sitting here laughing their ass off.
It was great. It was so funny.
He's awesome man, you know? Through that whole experience
and you know, and looking at my child and thinking there are
people that would say that because he, you know, will never
be able to comprehend the complexities of religion that.
Oh, thank God. You know, and I'm like.

(54:53):
I don't think it's that complex,but you.
Can't look, you can't certain sometimes you just have certain
experiences in life that lead you to a place of recognizing
anything that's born out of purelove can't be.
You can't punish that and there can't be a hell.
And like, you know, by the same token, as I healed and as I grew

(55:14):
out from abuse and into really like being loved, it hit me that
you how could you punish your child for eternity, right?
Like how could I look at my kid that at 2 drew on my walls and
sharpie and be like you're punished for eternity?
That's it. You made one mistake.
You fucked up. You know, like, and, and the

(55:36):
grand scheme of things aren't even the oldest among us in
comparison to an eternal God. Like we're all cosmic babies.
So, and furthermore, we're doingthe stuff that we're programmed
to kind of do and explore and learn.
Yeah, we're totally supposed to.Our brain is made to ask
questions and figure shit out and and explore.

(55:58):
I mean, we went to the moon for gosh sakes.
But you'd mentioned the way thatmom and dad reacted, you know,
when you told them you're havinganother baby.
Well, when our first son was born and my wife and I, we
hadn't had a church wedding, butwe were married, legally
married. And so we didn't have a bastard.

(56:20):
We were totally married when I told mom and dad that we were
having a baby and and my wife had called her parents and told
them. And, you know, it was the
typical what you would expect. Everybody was happy, everybody
was excited. Her parents love me, you know,
they, her dad's like a dad to me.

(56:40):
I love him to death. He's the greatest guy in the
world. But you know that she had that
experience and, and I was able to live that experience with
her. We told my parents and my mom
and dad weren't very happy. And my mom told my wife that our
son was going to go to hell because he was a bastard,
because we had him out of wedlock.
So that was, that was awesome. And also, I don't know, we were

(57:02):
looking back because we recentlymoved and as we're moving, we're
looking back, you know, looking through stuff and come across
our wedding pictures. And yeah, I'm old enough to have
pictures in a book. People leave me alone.
But my parents in, in the pictures at our wedding, they
look and it was a small wedding.It wasn't anything big.
We paid for it ourselves. My parents didn't want to have
anything to do with it. But they, they look like people

(57:24):
from the 1800s. They're not smiling, you know,
they're just standing there all stoic faced and stuff.
And it's supposed to be the happiest day of my life.
And I'm married, getting marriedand having a baby and I'm 25.
I thought I was old. I'm scared to death.
I felt like I had no support. In fact, I, I had asked mom to
go with me to buy my suit for the, for the wedding and she

(57:45):
didn't go, she wouldn't go with me.
It's just one of the like one ofthe couple of times in my life
where, you know, you think you can go to your parent and you
think if I tell him this thing, they're going to understand and
they're going to, they're going to, they understand me, they'll
be on my side. They'll you know, and and they

(58:06):
didn't and it sucks. But anyway, enough about that I
think. We talked.
Like now, for an hour or two it feels.
Probably so. But yeah, so just to wrap it up,
that was, you know, that was my experience.
And I will say in closing, aha, the coolest thing for me was

(58:28):
that, you know, there was a timeof, of deconstruction, a little
bit of like unprocessing, like almost a feeling of, of looking
into the void and being like, whoa, everything is big.
Because, you know, if, if I don't know where I go after I
die, then I have to think about that, like, where do I go and
what does happen and why am I here?

(58:50):
And ironically, it led me into such.
It's going to sound weird, but what it felt like was honestly,
it's such a romance with life. Like I would look at the stars
and look at the trees and I'd belike, we come from Stardust, you
know? Like it's.
Magical. I don't want to, I don't want to

(59:10):
live a good life because I have a carrot in front of me or
because I have a stick behind me.
You know, you should live life and be a good person and have
morals and want to treat people right because we're all on this
planet, this fucking rock flyingthrough space together.
You're only here for a short period of time.
I mean, it's beautiful here. If you don't think it's

(59:30):
beautiful, get a puppy dog, right?
And a puppy dog is life because they're happy.
They make you happy, they're great, but they're also a pain
in the ass. They're going to have to clean
up their shit and you're going to have to feed them.
But just enjoy life, even the bad things, you know, and not
because that there's some heavenout there because you're trying
to please some God who made you to please him and has all these

(59:55):
rules just because life is great, man.
Like, you know, go fishing, havea beer, whatever floats your
boat. Sleep in on a Sunday or don't.
Enjoy it, you know, just enjoy the short time you have here
and, and not because you're trying to impress somebody and
not because you know, you're trying to make your family
happy. Do what's right for you, you

(01:00:16):
know? Right.
Yeah, that was my experience too, and it was amazing in
waves, like the anxiety will release sometimes and I'm like,
oh wait, you know, no, it's OK. I'm not going to get punished if
I because I did this thing. Like I'm not going to lose out
on this or that opportunity because I'm being punished
because I did or didn't do this or that thing.

(01:00:37):
Like it's just life. Good things happen, bad things
happen. And the sense of community, like
truly looking at other people who I didn't realize how
judgmental I was. And that's maybe something we
talked about next time. But you know, I, I just
realized, like, like you said, we're all here together.
We're all part of the same. We're all part of the same gang.

(01:00:59):
Now my my kind of that I just want to touch on that real
quick. My wife pointed out because she
came from a totally different, her family is cool as shit and
they, you know, you have drinks at Christmastime and they're
normal freaking people and they're really nice and that
guess what? They don't go to church, but
they're like the nicest people Iknow.
But what was I going to say? Judgment.
Yeah. She pointed out to me when we

(01:01:20):
were very young into our relationship, when we got to
know each other, where she couldtell me this, you know, she's
like your family seems really judgmental.
She didn't use those words exactly, but pointed out to me
that. And I'm like, yeah, you know, it
is kind of embarrassing to. And I think that rubbed off on
me in a really bad way, where actually I think it rubbed off
in the way that I feel like everybody, he's judging me

(01:01:40):
because of the people I were around were always judging
people. So it's a very, it's a very bad
environment, not only because itcan make you one of those kind
of people, but it can also totally just ruin your
confidence in yourself. Because you know, if they're
talking about those people behind their back and they're
supposed to be their friends andthey're supposed to be not only

(01:02:01):
their friends, but their, their preacher, you know, their, their
guidance through this life, their, their passageway to God,
then they're making fun of them behind their back like.
Right. Yeah, I just kind of it.
It fucks with you for a long time so.
It really does. It really does.
I'm glad to be out of it. And you know, another time I'd

(01:02:23):
like to maybe share about the differences I see in raising
children in that world versus raising my younger 2 completely
out of it. And you know, there's a lot of
room for growth. But I will say this in in our
final, my final statement, I guess the thing too that that I
really learned is truth is neverafraid of questions ever.

(01:02:46):
It's just not, it's the nature of truth to want to be
questioned, to want to be found and to want to be uncovered.
And so anything that is telling you that truth is repellent of
investigation or repellent of transparency or questions, maybe
give that a second thought. That's all I have to say.
That's really good. I like that.

(01:03:07):
Right on. Don't be afraid, question
everything. Yeah, for sure.
Man. Maybe, maybe we just go back to
the 60s. All right, Awesome.
Well, we'll chat again soon. Thanks for.
Listening later. Later.