July 28, 2025 • 57 mins
"You can never be happy and find peace with more. You can also never be happy and find peace with less. You can only be happy and find peace with what you have – and that can only happen right here, right now."
These profound words from Dr. Marshall Goldsmith encapsulate the wisdom shared in this extraordinary conversation. From the son of a gas station owner in rural Kentucky to becoming the world's top executive coach, Marshall's journey exemplifies how an ordinary person can achieve extraordinary things while maintaining humility and purpose.
Marshall takes us through pivotal moments that shaped his philosophy – from overcoming the limiting belief that he had "no mechanical aptitude," to witnessing heartbreaking poverty in Africa during a famine, to learning servant leadership from the remarkable Frances Hesselbein. His stories aren't just entertaining; they're transformative lessons about recognizing our self-imposed limitations and finding meaning in service to others.
What stands out most is how Marshall has distilled decades of coaching the world's top executives into actionable wisdom anyone can apply. His six daily questions practice (starting with "Did I do my best to...") offers a simple but powerful framework for meaningful change. And his admission that even he – the creator of this method – needs someone to hold him accountable speaks volumes about both human nature and the importance of structured support systems.
Throughout our conversation, Marshall exemplifies the rare combination of brilliant insight delivered with genuine warmth. Whether discussing Buddhist philosophy, the psychology of leadership, or the power of authentic gratitude, he communicates complex ideas with remarkable clarity and heart. His mission statement has simplified with age: "I want to help you, a real human being, have a little better life."
Ready to transform your approach to leadership, relationships, and personal fulfillment? Visit marshallgoldsmith.com for free access to his documentary, articles, and coaching resources – and start asking yourself those six daily questions today.
https://www.marshallgoldsmith.com/
https://bamboolab3.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Bamboo Lab Podcast with your
host, peak Performance Coach,brian Bosley.
Are you stuck on the hamsterwheel of life, spinning and
spinning but not really movingforward?
Are you ready to jump off andsoar?
Are you finally ready to sculptyour life?
If so, you've landed in theright place.
(00:21):
This podcast is created andbroadcast just for you, all of
you strivers, thrivers andsurvivors out there.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Brian and the Bamboo Lab,
feel free to reach out toexplore your true peak level at
wwwbamboolab3.com.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the
Bamboo Lab Podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianBosley.
Folks, I have to share with youtoday.
I have been excited for thisinterview for two years now.
We have one of my personal andprofessional heroes on today,
and other than my mother, who wehaven't gotten on yet I'll be
(01:02):
able to say that again,hopefully, in a few months when
she comes on this is the firsttime I've ever introduced
somebody as such.
Today, folks, we have DrMarshall Goldsmith on.
Marshall has been recognized asone of the top 10 business
thinkers in the world and thetop-rated executive coach at the
Thinkers 50th Ceremony inLondon since 2011.
Folks, he is a mentor and coachto the top executives and
(01:25):
thinkers and leaders all acrossthe world.
He has written four New YorkTimes and Wall Street Journal
bestsellers.
One is called the Earned Life,which I just finished reading a
few weeks ago.
Another one is Mojo.
The third one is Triggers,which I just finished this week
for the second time, and mypersonal all-time success book
titled what Got you here Won'tGet you there.
(01:47):
The editors of Amazoncom haverecognized two of his books both
Triggers and what Got you here,won't Get you there as being
the top 100 leadership andsuccess books ever written.
He is the only author alivetoday with two books on the list
author alive today with twobooks on the list.
(02:08):
On LinkedIn, marshall has beenranked number 58 for content
creators in the world, out of250 million users, and on all
social medias he's in the top 10of all content creators in the
field of leadership andmanagement.
But, more importantly, he's aBuddhist philosopher, he's the
father of two, he's agrandfather and he's the husband
of Lida, my new friend Marshall.
Welcome to the Bamboo Labpodcast.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm honored to be here Wellthank you Now.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I told you before we started recording, I've been
following you since 2007,.
Since I read the book what Gotyou here, won't Get you there,
which just changed the way Ithink about my life, both
personally and professionally.
So I've gotten to study you andyou know, watch your content on
social media and thedocumentary that was recently
made about you.
But can you please tell theaudience the bamboo pack, as we
(02:56):
call them a little bit aboutyourself?
You know where you're from yourchildhood, your family, who or
what inspired you growing up?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, I mean, I like the title helping ordinary
people do extraordinary things.
I was brought up in abackground you could say was
pretty ordinary.
I'm from a small town inKentucky called Valley Station,
kentucky.
I was brought up in alow-income, low-education
environment.
The first four years we were inschool we had an outhouse.
We didn't have indoor plumbingso I didn't go to Harvard Prep
and my high school came innumber two from the bottom in
(03:28):
Kentucky in academic achievement.
So that's you know.
I wasn't brought up to writingfor the New York Times
bestsellers.
From there the odds were notreal good.
So then I went to undergradschool, a little engineering
school, rose-hulman Institute ofTechnology.
I made very high test scores,fortunately, and a terrible
attitude.
Almost got thrown out, madefive Ds, barely graduated.
(03:51):
But last year I went back andgave the commencement address,
got an honorary PhD and I saidlet's hear it for the bottom of
the class.
You never know, you never knowwho's going to be a success,
let's hear it for the bottom.
Then I got an MBA at IndianaUniversity and a PhD at UCLA.
I was a college professor anddean and then for the next 47
(04:12):
years I did three things Itraveled all around the world
speaking and teaching.
So I've been to 102 countrieson American Airlines alone.
I have over 11 million frequentflyer miles.
I'm a mega, mega flyer.
Then I love speaking andteaching.
I don't do that anymore, but Idid it for 47 years.
Then I coach people.
As you mentioned, I'm in thecoaches CO4, pfizer, glaxo,
(04:34):
world Bank, walmart, mayo Clinicyou know on and on and on.
And what I like about coachingis that's where I learn
everything.
So I've coached five people whoare CEO of the Air in the
United States, and so I'velearned a whole lot from these
people.
And then the final thing is, asyou mentioned, I write books
and articles.
Now I have done four New YorkTimes bestsellers, but I've also
(04:57):
done about 50 books thatvirtually no one read other than
my mother, my father andassociated relatives.
So I have done a few books andsold four million copies, but
I've also done a bunch thatdidn't sell any.
So anyway, life is great.
I live in Nashville.
I live in Nashville.
Now we'll impress yourlisteners.
I've got fancy neighbors.
One of my neighbors is in theRascal Slats, a great country
(05:19):
group.
Nicole Kidman is one of myneighbors.
Keith Urban is my neighbor.
Reese Witherspoon is myneighbor.
Reese Witherspoon is myneighbor, and the woman who owns
the house across the street isTaylor Swift.
So I lived here in Nashville.
My daughter is a professor atVanderbilt.
That's why I lived here.
I've got two grandkids here andmy son's an entrepreneur and he
lives in Austin, texas.
(05:41):
So that's the story of me.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Wasn't your daughter on the TV show Survivor?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
She was on the third season of Survivor.
About 40 people watched herevery week, yeah.
So she was on Survivor in thethird season and that kind of
went to her head.
So she went to Hollywood afterthat to be a movie star.
That lasted about two years.
So she got her butt handed toher, which is good for her.
It taught her a little humility.
Then she went back to Yale andgot a PhD and, as I said, now
(06:09):
she's an endowed chair, fullprofessor at Vanderbilt and
she's now the associate provost,whatever that is.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I did some research on your children and I did see
that I didn't know she was onSurvivor.
That's one piece of informationI did not know until the last
few days.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's it .
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I've really been fascinated about learning about
your childhood with your dadbeing in the.
Was he a mechanic or he had anauto shop of some type?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
He had a little two-pump gas station.
Gas station, yeah, mechanic andauto shop of the stretch.
This is a two-pump gas station.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And your mother said to what?
To you when you were growing up?
I thought that was so.
I've heard you talk about thisso many times, about your mother
talking about your mechanicalskills.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah, she said.
She told me I was smart.
I was extremely smart.
I was probably the smartest kidin Ballard Station, kentucky,
and I had no mechanical skills.
And I will never have anymechanical skills.
She didn't want me to work atthe gas station, right?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, how'd that turn out for you?
How many?
What kind of mechanical skillsdo you have today?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, what happened is I'm never in cars, encouraged
around cars, tools, mechanicalthings, so I don't learn.
So, my friends, you know, whatdo you think about this
universal join?
I thought that was somethingpeople smoked, right.
I don't know what universaljoin is and I take a test, a
United States Army aptitude test.
I think I scored the bottom twopercentile of the United States
.
They show you pictures of tools.
(07:33):
You had to guess the name ofthe tools.
I don't know the name of thesetools, right?
So now the Army said I have nomechanical aptitude.
Oh, by the way, key oh, by theway, key word to this
conversation, on a serious note,is the word aptitude.
Now, no mechanical achievementmeans you haven't done it.
No, mechanical aptitude meansyou can't do it, can't do it.
(07:55):
When somebody says you have noaptitude, that means you can't
do it.
So I've never encouraged you onany of this stuff.
I'm 26 years old, I'm getting aPhD at UCLA and the teacher is
a guru figure.
Dr Kanban says what are you goodat?
What do you need to do better?
Well, I said what am I good at?
Oh, scholarly pursuits,research.
What was I saying?
Smart, smart, I am smart.
(08:15):
What do you know good at.
I said I have no mechanicalskills.
I will never have anymechanical skills.
He said how do you know?
I said said it's hopeless.
I took a test.
I was defeated by random chance.
He said how are yourmathematical skills?
Oh, perfect score in the SATmath achievement test.
Nine courses of math, bestcalculus, excellent mathematical
skills.
(08:35):
He said why is it?
You can solve complexmathematical problems, but you
cannot solve simple mechanicalproblems.
I thought that was a good point.
He says how's your androidcoordination?
I said I guess it's okay.
I could play pinball games,shoot pool.
He said why could you playpinball games or shoot pool, but
you can't have anyone else?
When I was 26 years old, Irealized there's only one reason
(08:59):
I had no mechanical aptitude.
I was told I had no mechanicalskills.
There was no physiologicalreason, I had no mechanical
skills and I just believed itand it became part of my
identity.
So I see this all the time.
When I coach people, somebodysays I can't listen, I can't
listen.
I've never been able to listen.
I can't listen.
Look at the guy's ears.
What are you?
(09:19):
Got something stuck in there.
Why can't you listen?
You can't you listen.
You can't listen to.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
You keep telling yourself you can't listen.
Well, you know, I you have.
We share a similar story.
My father was.
I grew up in a small town inmichigan and my father, father
who passed away in 1971 when Iwas four and a half, and he was
a mechanic and owned a gasstation and an auto repair shop
as well, and I was young.
But he would tell my two olderbrothers if you ever pick up a
wrench, I'm going to hit youwith it.
(09:48):
There's a better way to make aliving, and one of my brothers
has zero mechanical aptitudeskills or hasn't tried them.
The other one is very adept atbuilding fixing, repairing.
So one listened and one didn't,and I was too young to hear him
so I don't think he was talkingto me.
That's the way life is.
(10:09):
You shared a story that I heardone time Marshall about I
believe the gentleman DennisMudd is that some was that the
name.
He did a roof for your parents.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah, that's what led to my.
Let me tell you, I got into thecoaching business or the
leadership development businessat all.
So I'm a very young man and Ijust finished my PhD at UCLA.
So I'm very fortunate and I metthis man named Dr Paul Hersey.
Now he and Ken Blanchardinvented something called
situational leadership.
I'm very lucky.
(10:40):
So I'm a young guy.
So he kindly invites me to goto his class for free, which
cost 500 bucks a person backthen.
So I'm sitting in the backgoing man, this guy's good, I
want to be him when I grow up.
Well, I said look, I'll servethe coffee.
I'll move the tables, I'll sitin the back.
Just let me sit here and learnfrom you.
(11:01):
That was smart.
One day he got double booked.
He said can you do what I do?
I said I don't know.
Can you do this?
I said I don't know.
He said I'll pay $1,000 for oneday.
This was 47 years ago.
I'm a 28-year-old kid, I'mmaking $15,000 a year.
(11:23):
He said I'll give you $1,000for a day.
I said sign me up, coach.
So I fly to New York.
I do a program for theMetropolitan Life Insurance
Company.
They're phenomenally angry whenI show up because I'm not him.
But then I got ranked firstplace of all the speakers for
the whole two-week program.
He calls them up expecting toget his butt handed to him and
(11:47):
people at MetLife said look, wewere upset, but this guy came in
first place, send him again.
He called me up and says youwant to do this again?
I said I'm making $15,000 ayear, you're paying $10,000 a
day.
Yes, sir, I'll do this again.
That's how I got into leadershipdevelopment and in coaching,
somewhat accidental.
(12:08):
There was nothing calledexecutive coaching, there was no
field of coaching.
So I just meet this CEO I'mworking with.
He says I've got this kid young, smart, dedicated, hardworking.
He said he's a jerk.
He's arrogant, stubborn.
It would be worth a fortune tome if we changed kids' behavior.
So, remembering our previousconversation, I said I like
fortunes, maybe I could help him.
(12:28):
He said I doubt it.
I said I think I can do it.
He said I doubt it.
I said look, I'll work with akid for a year.
He gets better paying me.
You don't get better as free.
What did the CEO say, sold, hegot better, I got paid.
I did not get paid one cent formy coaching for 47 years unless
my clients got better.
(12:48):
Better was not judged by me orthem.
It was judged by everyonearound them.
Where did I learn this, dennisBudd?
Back in Kentucky we were poor.
The roof starts leaking.
You got to have a new roof.
You may be poor, but you don'thave a roof.
The house is trashed.
You may be poor, but you don'thave a roof, the house is
trashed.
Well, to save money, my dad hadme try to help Dennis Mudd.
(13:09):
All right, so I tried to helpDennis Mudd.
We'd make this roof and theroof you know he's very proud of
.
The roof worked very hard.
It got me interested to try todo a good job.
So the roof gets done.
Dennis Mudd who was, by the wayway, probably even more poor
than we were looked at my dadnamed Bill and says Bill, I want
(13:30):
you to inspect the roof.
If that roof is of high quality, pay me.
If that roof is not of highquality, it's free.
I looked at Dennis Mudd.
I was maybe 14, 15.
You know what I said I want tobe him when I grow up.
I looked at Dennis Mudd I wasmaybe 14, 15.
You know what I said I want tobe him when I grow up.
Wow, that guy's poor, but he'snot cheap.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Right and as somebody who truly believes in their
craft and wants to, they havetheir purpose down in life as to
provide, in his case, forDennis was to provide a solid
roof, keep the customer happy.
And you got to wonder, I thinkabout stories like that.
I've heard you share that storybefore and I think I read it in
the Earned Life or one of thebooks that I've read, and I
(14:15):
thought, think about thosemoments in life when we have an
opportunity, like Dennis didwhen you were 14 years old, to
say that to your father, wherehe didn't think that this was
going to create a turning pointfor you or something that you
were going to take later on inlife and use it to impact the
world.
And I think about stories likethat in the sense of everything
(14:36):
we do and say is being watchedto some degree, some by a lot of
people, some by one or twopersons, but at the same time,
when we do things like that, itcan have such a dramatic turning
point for another human beingthat watches how we choose to
either use our integrity orperhaps not to use our integrity
for the negative.
(14:56):
And when I read that story itmade me think.
I read that story, I think forthe first time a few months ago,
about Dennis sharing that withyour father and you being a
participant, and when he saidthat I thought, oh my gosh, I
wonder how I'm acting, thethings I'm saying, how am I
holding my own integrity in mybelief system for the value I
provide to people?
(15:16):
How am I holding that to thattest?
That's a tough test to holdyourself to to say I'm not going
to get paid unless I do the job.
I think that's, that'sfantastic.
And I didn't know that's howyou your fee for service with
your clients was was structuredeither until the last year or so
.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I think, that's fantastic.
Well, you know, what happenedis to me, dennis Mudd had more
integrity than I will ever have.
He was poor, right, he neededthe money and you know, he
doesn't get paid, he doesn't eatso well, right, I was never
that poor, you.
I mean when I was working withpaul hersey, when I talked to
(15:53):
that ceo, right, I mean I wasmaking 200 000 bucks a year 45
years ago.
I wasn't poor.
I was not poor, you know, Imean, what I did is integrity.
What he did was more integrity.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Okay, that's a good way to look at it.
I do see that a lot thoughMarshall.
In the world I see a lot ofpeople who have nothing are the
ones who oftentimes give themost.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Well, I mean, yeah, I agree with you and you're
saying ordinary people doingextraordinary things.
I published that thing aboutDennis Mudd that you read and
somebody sent me an email andsaid you know, after Dennis Mudd
put on roofs, he was a busdriver and then, after he would
drop me off in the bus, he wouldtalk to me sometimes.
(16:41):
This kid became the number onesmall business guy in Kentucky.
You know what he said.
Thank you, Dennis Mudd.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Wow, it gives me goosebumps when I think about
the impact we have on peoplearound us and everything we say,
think, feel, do people arewatching, and if we all could
take that into account in ourown lives, what dramatic impact
we could make to better thisworld.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You know, Dennis Marshall one of the things that
reminds me of Dennis when I wasliving in Grand Rapids, Michigan
, I moved four years ago tofollow my daughter and my son,
kind of like you did, frommoving to Kentucky.
From moving to Kentucky, mydaughter moved to Marquette,
Michigan, on Lake Superior, andthree years later my son
graduated high school anddeclared to go to Northern
(17:29):
Michigan University, which is inthe same town.
My daughter lives on on LakeSuperior, and I followed them up
.
But before then, everyChristmas, right around the
Christmas season, my son and Iwe would go buy 25, 30 pizzas
and we'd collect clothing and,you know, boots and hats and
jackets and scarves, and and acouple of years, we brought his
(17:51):
friends with us, took them rightout of school and said this is
what we're doing.
We would go down to the, to thepoorest area of Grand Rapids,
Michigan, downtown, in the city,where the homeless people would
, you know, come out of theshelters, and we would give
pizzas and we'd open up the backof my Jeep and we'd give out
clothes and what I was sosurprised by this I would offer
a pizza to everybody, a fullpizza, you know, and they
(18:12):
wouldn't take it and run.
They would go down the streetand they'd open it up to their
friends.
And when we'd drive away, we'dsee, you know, three or four
blocks down the road there'd bea group of people eating a box
of pizza that the one person whogot it from us was sharing with
them.
And I would stop and askindividuals who I didn't think
had pizza, who weren't therewhen we gave it away, could I
give you some clothes or pizza?
(18:34):
And so many of these peoplewould say no, I have had enough
food today and I have enoughclothing.
But there's a group of peopledown here that might need it.
And I thought these people haveliterally almost nothing
materialistically in life, butyet they're turning down food,
they're sharing food, they'resharing clothing and offering it
to other people.
And it was such an eye-openingexperience for myself and
(18:55):
especially for my son and hisfriends.
But they were 11, 12, 13 yearsold, and so when I read about
Dennis, I thought that's so truein so many areas of life, those
who have the least often givethe most, as long as the
integrity is intact.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
So I like it.
Yeah, it's completely true.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Can I ask you a question?
I love this question, Marshall.
In the last, let's say, 12months, what is one of the
greatest learnings you've had inlife?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I would say in the last 12 months, as I've grown
older and older, my mission inlife has become simpler and
simpler For everyone listening.
You're part of my mission inlife.
My mission today is quitesimple I want to help you, a
real human being, have a littlebetter life.
So if one person listening tothis podcast has a little better
(19:50):
life, that's my mission.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, I know you've done that already today with me.
So, and when this thing airs, Ithink you're going to help a
few people have a little betterlife.
Thank you for that.
Now, was that something whenyou were younger, starting off
in coaching?
Did you have a differentmission back then, or a
different purpose, or had youeven really defined your purpose
yet?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, I was just making it up to set land.
There was nothing calledcoaching, I know there wasn't.
People said you want to be thiswhen you grew up.
There was no, this right.
I just made it up, you know,and basically, look, I was
enjoying what I did.
So it's not like I'm and I, youknow, look, I started out poor.
But when I went into business Iwent to work with Paul Hersey.
I was.
(20:33):
I made a ton of money as a kid.
I mean, when I was 40 years oldI moved into basically today's
$560 home.
So you know, I didn't start atthe bottom.
My first clients were IBM,mckinsey, warner Lambert, you
know, weyerhaeuser, et cetera.
So I kind of started at the topagain because of Paul Hersey.
(20:54):
The reason I give everythingaway is because of Peter Drucker
and Paul Hersey and all thepeople that helped me.
Maybe I can help some of us.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Well, I think, yeah, one of the things I think about.
When I started 29 years ago andyou started long before I did
and I know you're the pioneer of, really kind of the pioneer of
executive coaching, I refer toyou as the godfather of
executive coaching and, from myperspective anyway, and you're,
think, one of the the thefounders of the 360 feedback, um
(21:25):
, custom design, I think, 360feedback.
So I can't imagine, when Istarted I didn't know there were
things as executive coaches, Ijust knew I was a fairly good,
uh, motivator and inspirer ofpeople when I worked for
american express financial and Iwas young, I was young and
naive, so I didn't know anybetter.
When did you work for AmericanExpress?
I started there in 1991 as afinancial advisor.
(21:48):
Who was the CEO, harvey?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Golub.
Harvey Golub was one of myclients.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
He was oh yeah, Well, I remember I had a chance to
talk with him one time we werein Monterey, California.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
American Express was our biggest client.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Okay, yeah, I remember he came to our
leadership conference inMonterey, california, and I was
there and he left and ahelicopter flew him in and they
flew him out and he was walkingout the door with a couple of
guys surrounding him.
And he was walking out the doorwith a couple of guys
surrounding him Like I don'tknow if they were security,
because he couldn't flycommercial, I don't think,
because of potential threats,terrorist threats.
(22:25):
So I remember he was going tothe helicopter that was there
and I looked around and nobodywas walking him to his
helicopter other than these twosecurity guys.
So I piled it behind him and Istarted talking to him and I
said I just want to thank you.
He asked me who I was, where Icame from, and I said I'm from,
I'm the Detroit, I'm the Detroitregion.
He goes oh, you're one of JohnHans' boys.
John Hans was our vice presidentin charge of Detroit.
(22:46):
I said yeah, I shook his handand he got in his helicopter and
flew away.
It was one of the highlights ofmy life.
I thought why is nobody elsetaking this 30-second
opportunity to meet company you?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
know of our parent company.
I know Harvey Gold very well,or I knew him very well.
He was our biggest customer forAmerican Express.
Yeah, in fact there's a guynamed Joe Kilty that he had an
HR for American Express and thename of our business was Kilty
(23:20):
Goldsmith and Company.
Okay, so Joe was my partner,went to work for Harvey, so I've
got a long history there.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Well, we have a few similarities.
Then you know anothersimilarity we have we share the
same birthday, march 20th.
March 20th yeah, I just noticedthat a couple days ago when I
was preparing to talk to you, Ithought, well, our fathers were
both in the mechanical trades,didn't want us to go into that
trade and we both share abirthday.
So there you go.
Can I ask you a question?
(23:49):
I love this question, marshall,and it's a really deep question
.
A lot of my listeners like tohear what is one of the most
difficult things you have gonethrough in your life.
And then, how did you getthrough that time?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Well, I think you know, if I look at my life, I
have been remarkably blessed andI think one of my most
difficult adjustments when I wasyoung was just making peace
with life.
When I was in undergrad school,you know I was not particularly
happy back then.
You know I was not particularlyhappy back then.
I was more angry,self-righteous, know-it-all and
(24:29):
really not happy and, over theyears, just learning to make
peace with life.
There's another story I'vewritten about Dr Fred Case at
UCLA who helped me.
I'm working down at City Halland he was my dissertation
advisor and I'd been at UCLA.
Who helped me.
I'm working down at City Halland he was my dissertation
advisor and I'd been at UCLA fora while and he was head of the
planning commission.
So I start ranting about thegovernment of Los Angeles.
(24:51):
Oh, he says you know, marshall,I'm getting some negative
feedback about you.
Feedback is you're kind ofnegative and judgmental and
people don't like to be aroundyou.
What's the problem?
I go rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
I start complaining about thegovernment of Los Angeles is
inefficient.
She starts laughing at me.
She says what a stunningbreakthrough.
You, marshall Goldsmith ohbrilliant one have discovered
(25:13):
the city government of LosAngeles is inefficient.
Do you have any other problems?
Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
She goes.
Oh my goodness, you havediscovered that when people give
politicians millions of dollars, they're actually not sure to
those people and everybody else.
He said I don't know, marshall,I hate to tell you this, but
Mike Barber knew all this beforehe started.
He said I'm not going to giveyou a PhD for this.
(25:35):
I said, marshall, you're comingacross as a pain in the butt,
judgmental, whiny and negative.
Option A you can continue thisbad behavior and you're fired
and you're never going tograduate with a PhD and you just
wasted five years of your life.
Or option B is you can starthaving some fun.
Try to do something good, makea real difference, but have fun
(25:55):
and quit being a pain in the ass.
What's it going to be, son?
I said well, you know, dr Case,let's have a little fun here.
That was good advice.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
That's great advice.
Do you think, when you foundBuddhism and you started
incorporating Buddhism into yourlife, did that help you to find
that peace that you werelooking for and to make peace
with your life?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Oh, definitely, I'm not a religious Buddhist, I'm a
philosophical Buddhist, right.
And I mean to me, look, thereare many schools of Buddhism.
So when somebody says they're aChristian, well they can be a
Catholic or Southern Baptist orUnitarian.
That means very differentthings to different people.
The differences in Buddhism areeven bigger.
So as soon as they're Buddhist,I don't want to tell you much
(26:41):
of anything.
But my school of Buddhism isvery simple.
Buddha was I mean I don't knowif there was a Buddha, but you
know, thousands of years ago.
Who knows what really happened?
But in any case, themetaphorical Buddha was brought
up very rich.
His father was a king and hewas protected from life.
(27:01):
He lived in a bubble.
He kept getting more and moreand surrounded by beauty and
youth and all this stuff.
But then one day he was able tosneak outside the bubble with
his friend and the first trip helearned what's that People get
old, very bad.
Second trip he sneaks out, out.
(27:23):
What's that people get sick,even worse.
Third trip people die.
Old, sick, die, not good.
He said all of this, more, more,more stuff, that's not going to
do it.
He gave up on all that stuffand went out in the woods and
basically starved himself andtried to live a very simple life
(27:45):
, but that didn't work either.
You know what he learned youreally can never be happy and
find peace with more.
You can also never be happy andfind peace with less.
You finally realize somethingthere's only one thing you can
ever be happy and find peacewith what you have.
And there's only one thing youcan ever be happy and find peace
with what you have.
And there's only one time youcan ever find peace and
(28:05):
happiness.
When is that?
That would be now.
And there's only one place.
That place is called here.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
That's a tough one for a lot of people to
incorporate.
I know I have a challenge withthat.
A lot for breathing.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I'm going to get breathing, breathing, breathing.
I'm going to give you someprotein.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm ready.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Breathing.
You just said I have achallenge with this.
Do you have an incurablegenetic defect that is forcing
you to continue having thischallenge?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
No.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Then quit saying I have a challenge with this.
I want you to repeat after me Iused to have a challenge with
this.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I used to have a challenge with this.
I do not have an incurablegenetic defect.
I do not have an incurablegenetic defect.
Therefore, I do not have tocontinue having a challenge with
this for the rest of my life.
Therefore, I do not have tocontinue being challenged with
this for the rest of my life andI'm going to have to continue
being challenged with this forthe rest of my life and I'm
going to quit talking that wayand I'm going to quit talking
that way.
(29:05):
There you go, there you go.
I will listen to that and writethose words down again, trust
me, and I'll put those rightnext to my chair in my office
every morning.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Very good.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Very good.
I was really struck by thepicture of you that you shared
as one of your best pictures,one of your favorite pictures.
I think you were in.
I believe you were in Africa in1984 with the Red Cross, yeah
that was it.
I have that picture right now,sitting propped up on my desk on
my iPad, and I know theaudience can't see this picture,
(29:36):
but can you share the meaning?
So, everybody, it's a pictureof marshall with the red cross,
with a bunch of african children, and they're testing them for
uh, primarily I, for lack of abetter way to say it whether
they're going to live or or not.
Can you share the meaningbehind that picture, in that
moment, marshall?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
yeah, there's a pictures of me.
Now again, I'm very young, Idon't know how old was back back
in 1984.
I can work backwards.
So I'm a very young guy.
I'm 35 years old and I'm aconsultant and I'm going to
Africa because I was a volunteercoach for the CEO of the Red
Cross in the United States andhe was kind enough to invite me
(30:16):
on his trip he thought it wouldbe good for me.
Well, he was right about that.
To the library on this trip.
He thought it would be good forme.
Well, he was right about that.
Well, I go to Africa and therethey had a great famine and
massive starvation.
See, people in the UnitedStates say, well, we have
starvation here.
No, we don't.
Americans have never seenstarvation.
(30:38):
When there is starvation, thereis no food in their garbage can
.
There's no food on the floor.
People eat anything.
Starvation is ugly.
I'm around thousands of peoplewho are literally dying.
Well, that picture shows me andI'm kneeling down next to a
woman and she's kneeling downand there's a long line of kids
between the ages of 2 and 16.
(30:58):
Why 2 and 16?
Pretty random.
If you're over 16, you're onyour own.
If you're under two, you'regoing to die anyway.
So she's measuring the arms ofthe kids.
If their arm is too little,well, sorry, you're going to die
anyway.
No food for you.
If their arm is too big, well,you're not hungry enough.
(31:20):
If their arm is in the middle,you got food.
So that picture is in my office.
I look at it every day and Ikeep that picture as a little
reminder Every time I startwanting to complain about
something.
Poor me, isn't life tough?
Not so much.
See, that picture is the me ofthen looking at the me today,
(31:40):
and that me is of then lookingat the me today, and that me is
sending a message to the metoday Be grateful for what you
have.
You're not in that line, by theway.
That was hard for me,unbelievably difficult for me.
I'm not measuring the arms.
Right, you're not making thatfinal decision.
Yeah, I'm not sitting thereplaying God, right, she's
(32:02):
literally sending kids off totheir death.
You know how hard is it for her.
Remember next, how hard is itfor the kids.
That's not fun, no, but theworst.
You look at that picture.
What's the worst?
Mama, yeah, how hard is it formama?
Yeah, your kid dies, sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Wow.
You know, one of the thingsthat I got from that is just
being grateful, practicinggratitude, and obviously the
external me part of me wants tosay I want to go over there and
save these children, but that'sa very large feat.
But obviously we can donate ourmoney.
We can donate our resources,our time to do as much as we can
(32:42):
for those who are sodisenfranchised throughout the
world.
But the one thing is a lot ofus don't have a lot of capacity
to do that.
We have some, but all of ushave the capacity to take this
picture in this moment and thethings we know that are going on
in the world and say, okay, howcan I practice gratitude in my
life?
Because to some degree it'salmost honoring those who are
(33:07):
not as fortunate as we are,Because I know, for me I have in
the past, but I'm working onthat because I do not have a
genetic flaw.
As you said.
I have really worked in the lastfive years on practicing
gratitude every day.
You know, I get up, Marshall,at five o'clock.
I do the same routine everysingle day for about an hour and
(33:28):
a half.
I have a very structuredmorning six days a week and the
third, fourth thing on my listevery morning is I write down
five things.
I'm grateful for that at thatmoment, and it could be the warm
cup of coffee in my hand.
It's the birds chirpingSometimes.
They're small things I'm justgrateful for, and I have found
by doing that it has changed mymindset to the point where I see
a lot more beauty in the lifearound me and a lot less
(33:51):
negative, because my mind isbeing programmed to seek those
out and we all can do thatexercise.
It's free, it takes very littletime and we all have the
capacity to sit down and writeor think about the things we are
most grateful for on aconsistent basis.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think it's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
In that picture.
Actually, with your permission,of course, I'm going to have
that put on my wall because Iwant it to be a constant
reminder of how fortunate we areand how we have to use the
fortunes we've had and theblessings we've been given in
life to impact the world aroundus.
Because when I watched yourdocumentary oh my goodness, I
(34:28):
watched it two or three timeswhen you talked about that story
right away, I just took apicture of my computer screen.
When they blew up the pictureand I had it put on the computer
, they showed it.
I took a picture of that, soit's a little blurry, but it is
a really good reminder of howblessed many of us are in the
world and we can't take that forgranted.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, well, thank you , I think that's a very good
idea.
I'll tell you what.
You send me an email and I'llmake a nice copy of the picture
and write a little note on itand send it back to you.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I will do that this afternoon.
I'll get an email out to you.
Thank you, I appreciate that,Marshall.
One of the things I was reallystruck by and I remember reading
this in 2007 or 2008, wheneverI read what Got you here Won't
Get you, there was never start aquestion with no but or however
.
Is that something you stillpractice?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, tell me.
Don't respond to anybody'sideas with no but or however.
Don't give positive recognitionwith no but or however, because
the word but just destroyswhatever you said before.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And I know in the documentary that I watched, you
had an executive sitting next toyou in the airplane and you
told him that right away, and Idon't know how many times he
said that he started, he lost$420.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I charge you $20 every time you do it.
He lost $420 in an hour and ahalf.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And you raised a lot of money for charities with that
.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, the money all goes to charity.
And at the end of the hour anda half he said thank you.
He said I had no idea.
I do this constantly.
Now he said I did it 21 times,with you throwing it in my face
every time I did it.
How many times were I done?
Had you not been throwing it inmy face 50 times, 100 times?
(36:22):
Now?
His feedback was people thoughthe was stubborn.
He said no wonder people thinkI'm stubborn.
The first thing I do whensomeone talks I prove I know
more than them or they're wrong.
Over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Well, since I saw that I've been really focusing
on not responding to people'sstatements with those three
words and even in my writingI've been really focusing on not
responding to people'sstatements with those three
words, and even in my writingI've been noticing I've been
really catching myself.
When I journal to myself in themornings I catch myself.
Even today I said something tothe effect of I'm very excited
to interview Marshall Goldsmithtoday.
(36:55):
I feel I'm very prepared.
And then I started to puthowever, am I overly prepared?
Sometimes you can over-preparesometimes and and it throws you
off.
And I crossed it right off.
I said I.
Now I?
The only question I have isperhaps I'm overly prepared.
So, but I was, I caught myselfwanting to use the but or
however word.
Good, my clients, my clients,won't be happy if I start
(37:16):
charging them every time.
They say those.
But I'm gonna I'm gonna throwthat out there this week happy
if I start charging them everytime they say those, but I'm
going to, I'm going to throwthat out there.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
This week the money all goes to charity.
Anyway, let them pick.
Let them pick the charity.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You know one of the stories that I really I got a
funny story about this yeah goahead One guy I'm charging.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
My clients are.
A lot of them are rich people,right.
So this guy's and the money'sall going to a charity.
I have 20 bucks.
He picked the charity 40 bucks.
He gets up for like 200 bucks.
He said that's expensive.
I said, excuse me, youpersonally donated over $10
million to this charity lastyear and you're complaining
(37:51):
about 20 bucks.
What's wrong with you?
He said you're right, 20 bucks,is not it?
He didn't want to hear it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
That's right.
Yeah, we don't really like thatinstant feedback coming at us
when we make those type oferrors.
Right, I know you have beenclose friends with Frances
Hesselbein before she passed.
I know the former CEO of GirlScouts of America.
Will you share the story aboutdoing the laundry?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, to me that story, story number one, a
little context.
Francis Husslebein, peterDrucker said, was the greatest
leader he has ever met in hislife.
And Peter Drucker would not saythat for no reason.
He did not give gratuitouscompliments to anybody.
So Francis Husslebein'm just anamazing human being.
I had the honor of coaching her.
(38:43):
I was a volunteer, but ofwhatever she learned from me, I
learned a hundred times from her.
So anyway, she calls me up oneday and says I want you to give
this talk, if you don't mind, tothe heads of the Girl Scouts in
the big cities you know NewYork, chicago, la.
I said well, frances, I'm happyto do it, but I'm booked, like
every day of the week for a longtime.
(39:03):
I could only do it on Saturday.
She said you work on Saturday,we work on Saturday.
You're the volunteer, not me,no problems.
Well then I thought a littlemore.
I said look, francis, it's veryembarrassing for me to bring up
, but I'm in a different cityevery day.
I'm going to run out of cleanclothes and you know you got to
have clean clothes eventually.
(39:25):
And is there any way thatsomehow you could help me get
clean clothes?
Francis said not at all problem.
We're going to work here in theGirl Scout Center.
You spend the night here andall you got to do is take all
your clothes, put them in a pilein the middle of the floor and
then I'll have someone pick upyour dirty clothes, we'll clean
them all and then, when you getdone, all your clothes are clean
(39:45):
.
Well, I said, you know I wasembarrassed to say this, but
thank you so much, francis, fordoing that.
So the next morning I'm havingbreakfast with the head of the
Girl Scouts in New York and LA,very distinguished women.
Right and I look, and walkingdown the hall is Frances
Husslebutt.
She's carrying my dirty clothes, dirty underwear, dirty socks.
(40:07):
She's taking them herself tothe laundry room.
Every woman saw her.
What a message.
Talk about servant leadership?
Well, she did not have to givea speech.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
She just acted leadership.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And, by the way, after that she didn't have to
give a speech.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
No, you know, I, when I I read that or I believe I
saw that somewhere and I thoughtabout myself.
When I was younger, marshall,when I was coaching leadership
and doing a lot of talks andcoaching on leadership to my
clients, I was so adamantlyagainst servant leadership.
Robert Greenleaf, who was kindof the founder of the term
(41:00):
servant leadership, I, robertGreenleaf, who is the kind of
the founder of the term servantleadership, anyway, I would bash
him in talks and coachingsessions and say there's no such
thing.
You don't put the cart beforethe horse, you have to have the
horse first.
I was young, I was 29 years oldwhen I started coaching.
I was very full of a lot ofbravado, a lot of ego, a lot of
(41:22):
insecurity, a lot of insecurity.
And my clients would say, well,why is servant leadership so
bad?
And I'd say because you can'thave leadership without the
leader being first.
And that's kind of how Isomewhat grew up in the
corporate world in the five orsix years I was there.
But it wasn't taught to us, itwas just kind of the message I
heard.
And it was probably eight to tenyears after I got into coaching
(41:44):
, so maybe 18, 19 years ago,when I started making a shift
and thinking wait a minute, whyam I so against servant
leadership?
What's wrong with servantleadership?
And when you study you knowwhether it's Jesus or Buddha,
any moral philosopher from ourhistory it's all about servant
leadership.
(42:04):
And I think Jim Collins' bookGood to Great maybe, or one of
his books, kind of set me onthat path back in the day of
thinking, wait a minute, maybethere's something to this phrase
.
And now that's really all Icoach is.
When I talk leadership, it's allprimarily servant leadership.
So I was able to thankfullycatch myself in my insecurities
(42:26):
and my lack of experience andwisdom.
But it took me about eight to10 years after I started
coaching before I made thatmetamorphosis and that change.
And when I heard about Franciswith the laundry, I thought
that's the perfect exampleThat'll be imprinted in my
(42:46):
memory and I can visualize thatin my head every time I'm
working with a client andworking with them on their
leadership skill sets.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's just, she was a wonderful leader, a wonderful
role model.
She lived to be 107, and I'lltell you another story about her
.
I got to see her right beforeshe died and someone was taking
care of her.
They called me and said youknow, if you want to say goodbye
, you've got to say goodbye.
(43:09):
So I basically went over to saygoodbye and I thought she was
probably in a coma.
She can't even hear me,whatever.
So this woman says to herMarshall's here.
Her eyes light up.
She says Marshall, it's sowonderful to see you.
She talked to me 20 minutes.
She said stuff like I just feelgreat.
She was dying.
She couldn't eat, she couldn'tmove.
(43:30):
She has no doubt ofexcruciating pain.
I feel great.
How are you doing my wife'sLida?
How's Lida?
I made a call with Lida.
She talks to Lida on the phone.
She could barely talk when Lidawas on the phone.
Boom, her voice picks up verystrong.
That 20 minutes was not abouther, it was about me.
It was about me.
(43:51):
Well, she's dying.
She wasn't thinking aboutherself.
She never complained.
It was never poor me.
Look at me.
I'm dying, I'm miserable.
No, I feel great.
She is so wonderful to see you.
You've meant so much in my life.
Thank you, you know, you'vebeen such a wonderful friend.
I was the customer, not her.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
And that, to me, is the definition of what you call
an earned life she's earned herlife Wow.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
That was it.
She never changed.
She died at 107.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I saw that.
That's amazing.
What an impact she's made onthe world.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
And on me, on you.
Yeah, how many times have Iever heard her complain about
poor me?
I'm miserable.
It's not fair.
I'm a victim.
Never.
Another great leader.
Our coach, alan Mulally, wassealed for it and he was in the
movie as well.
I saw that Alan Mulally is justan amazing guy Huge track
record, a financial track record, but also 97% approval rating
(45:00):
from every employee at a unioncompany.
I've known Alan for decades.
How many times have I heard himcomplain?
Never.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Never I loved talking about his life plan review.
I think it was his businessplan review that he would use
with his executives with the red, yellow, green.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Yeah, he's an amazing guy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
The simplicity of that idea.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, he's an amazing man.
He didn't do anythingcomplicated, he just did it.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Wasn't he at Boeing before he went to Ford?
Was it Boeing?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
He was at Boeing for the 7th, 37th, huge success at
Boeing.
He went to Ford.
He was at Boeing for theirheyday and then he went to Ford
and totally turned the companyaround.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, I like when the two of you were talking in the
documentary and they were, Ithink, when everybody.
For the first time.
Folks, I'm going to ask you toread the Earned Life.
It'll give you a really goodinsight of Alan's business plan
review process with the red,yellow, green.
But everybody had green orsomething like that, the first
time he implemented this andboth of you were laughing and
(46:06):
saying, well, what was thecompany at the beginning?
They're losing how much moneyper year and how much debt did
they have?
But yet everybody had showedgreen and everything they were
doing was working really well.
Because they were so afraid ofperhaps the former CEO or
typical leadership of comingdown on you if you shared that
your department wasn'tperforming as well as it should
and so you wanted to spotlightyour successes and not spotlight
(46:28):
the things that weren't workingso well and how he turned that
around and to make it a verysafe place for executives,
leaders around the company andaround the world to say, hey, we
are doing some really greatthings over in my department,
but we're also have somestruggles that we need help with
.
And again, that's kind of rightaround that idea of somewhat of
servant leadership.
You know just I'm here to help.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Well, I mean, you know, Alan, the company was
losing $17 billion, goingbankrupt.
And he said everyone, talkabout your top five priorities.
16 people in the room Green ison plan, yellow is I'm not on
plan, but I have a strategy toget there, and red is I don't
have a strategy.
(47:08):
16 people, 80 priorities, allgreen, and the company is losing
$17 billion.
Al said well, look, everybody'son plan and we're losing $17
billion and we're going back.
Maybe we should reconsider theplan.
It seems to be a very bad plan.
Well, they have been brought up.
There's an old managementsaying don't come to me with a
(47:30):
problem.
Don't come to me unless youhave a solution.
That is such bad advice.
What had been taught?
If you have a problem but youhave a solution, don't come to
me.
So they said okay, boss, Iwon't.
I have a problem A and I don'thave a solution B.
So therefore, what did you justtell me?
(47:50):
Don't come to me.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I'm going to hide the problem.
Hide the problem.
Wow, I really liked the videoof you, the scene where you were
shooting pool with Jay Wagner,I think it is and I was watching
your style of that.
You have that calmness aboutyou which I'm sure you've heard
before.
When you're talking with people, you're very you, you pull
(48:13):
people in and I was watching thesecond time I watched the
documentary.
I was watching you laugh withJay and you guys were having a
good, a good time.
But as soon as you knelt down toshoot that, you had your stick
in your hand and you were aiming.
You know I'm not player, so I'mnot.
I'm a very I'm not.
I've never really enjoyed pool.
But as soon as you got down thestick in your hand and you're
(48:36):
just setting up, your face wentto a different focus.
I don't know if you evernoticed that in the documentary,
but I would go back and watchthat.
You went from this laughingcalm I'm focused now and there's
a it's a microsecond change,it's a nanosecond.
But I thought about that for amoment and I thought that right
there encapsulates what I'velearned about you through your
(48:57):
writings and through yourspeeches and through the things
I've witnessed on you, but Ireally liked that.
You said when Jay was gettingready to sink the eight ball and
he says, with this shot I'mgoing to win, and you said,
unless you scratch.
And sure, enough enough, hescratched, it was a perfect
ending.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Well, you know what you couldn't have scripted, that
you couldn't have.
No, look, look, I used to shoot.
I used to shoot for money whenI was a kid, so I was never that
great a pool player but a greatpsychologist.
So I won a lot of moneyshooting pool.
Because just because of thatscene, said I, I intentionally
(49:36):
put that thought in his head.
You know, yeah, don't scratch.
And then he put it immediately,immediately.
I want to say one thing beforewe forget.
You've been mentioning mydocumentary.
I want everybody to go towwwmarshallgoldsmithcom.
My documentary is online andit's free.
Almost all my articles are free.
(49:57):
There's a whole coach you cancome to.
Coachingcom is free.
My website, marshallgoldsmithai.
Go to marshallgoldsmithai, askme any question.
That's free, so I'm givingeverything away.
So just go to my website, startlooking at articles, watch the
documentary.
There's videos.
It's all free.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, I'm going to include a link in the show notes
for this episode, so everybodyclick on that right away.
I keep it up on my bar at alltimes because I go on there
sometimes and search articles.
I just printed off yesterdayand I sent it to several clients
your article Leadership as aContact Sport, by the way,
marshall, and when did you writethis?
Do you remember?
Speaker 3 (50:38):
I don't exactly remember what year it was, but
that article's been readmillions of times and it
basically is 86,000 people in aresearch study.
And it basically is 86,000people in a research study and
it showed that you know, leadersthat get feedback and follow up
over and over again get better,and leaders that go to programs
like American Express was partof that study, by the way.
(50:59):
You might have been part ofthat study, I don't know, but
American Express had thousandsof people in the database.
So what happened is everybodygot feedback.
At American Express.
We did a class for all theleaders.
So what happened is everybodygot feedback at American Express
.
We did a class for all theleaders.
They all got feedback.
We invented the first 360feedback, I think for American
Express.
They're in the study.
And then we did measure.
(51:19):
Did the leader talk to you?
Like we taught them to?
Did they follow up on a regularbasis?
And if they did look at theresearch, they got better.
If they didn't, they didn't.
Well, the learning point isthey didn't get better because
they went to my class or read abook.
They got feedback.
They got better because theydid something.
You got to work.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, I remember reading this article several
years ago and I printed it upyesterday and I actually took it
and sent it to several clientslast night.
And when I had it printed upand I had it in my hand, I
thought I have this in myleadership file somewhere In my
leadership file, I do, but Ihave a fresh copy now, so I'm
going to reread it.
I have a question how manyyears have you been doing
(51:59):
coaching now then?
Speaker 3 (52:00):
What's the Well, 47, roughly.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And yet you have someone call you every night and
ask you daily questions, Right?
Can you explain that to us alittle bit better?
I love that idea.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Because it's very simple.
I'm too cowardly and I'mdisciplined and do this stuff by
myself and it's hard.
See everything.
You go to my website.
I give away everything I meanyou can understand stakeholder
coaching.
It's not complicated.
You can understand dailyeverything I mean you can
understand stakeholder coaching.
It's not complicated.
You can understand dailyquestions.
I don't say anything that'shard to understand, it's just
hard to do.
It's phenomenally hard to do.
Most people with daily questions.
(52:37):
You ask yourself questionsevery day.
You get better.
Well, it's not hard tounderstand.
Just pick six questions If youdid nothing else.
There's another article.
I wrote about six questions.
Send me a note.
Six.
There's another article I wroteabout six questions.
Send me a note.
Six-question researcher.
It's on the website.
You know the daily question.
Look up the daily questionsarticle.
I think it's called Questionsthat Make a Difference, I forget
, but in any case, you askyourself questions every day and
(53:01):
I'm going to give you six andthey all begin with did I do my
best to?
The first question is did I domy best to set clear goals?
So every day you get the daystarted.
You set goals.
Did I do my best to makeprogress for achieving the goals
after I set them Measure thatevery day.
Did I do my best to every dayfind meaning Rather than waiting
for the world to be meaningful?
(53:21):
Did I create meaning?
Did I do my best to be happyRather than waiting for others
to make us happy?
Did I do my best to be happymyself?
Did I happy that I don't haveto be happy myself?
Did I do my best to be fullyengaged and did I do my best to
build great relationships withother people?
Every day, six questions didyou do your best?
If you do nothing based on thiscall, but do those six
questions every day, you'regonna have a better life.
(53:41):
The average person quits in twoweeks what I like can.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So do you see, I obviously let's stop for a
second.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Have you tried to to do this yourself?
I have not why.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
I'm afraid.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
I'm afraid of what my answers will be.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
I am too cowardly and I'm just going to do it by
myself.
And I wrote the book.
Somebody said, don't, I knowthe theory.
I wrote the theory.
I know the theory.
I know how hard it is.
I'm giving you a challenge,starting today.
You're going to do these dailyquestions every day.
It takes three or four minutesa day.
It's hard to do.
I'll tell you.
Call me up in six months andtell me how you're doing.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I commit that I'll start doing these today.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Call me in six months .
See months.
You've got the see.
If you've got the guts to makeit six months well, marshall,
I'm.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
One thing I'm really good at is follow-up, and I so I
will definitely be calling youand I'll mark it down six months
from today, in fact, I'm gonnaknow right now.
Call me up for the report.
I will certainly do that.
Yep, it's sitting on my desknow because I have these
questions printed up.
I had it in my, in my, mypodcast preparation notes.
I just find that to be whattaught me is one of the things I
(54:54):
share with my clients is, youknow, I've hired coaches, I have
mentors.
I have, you know, I have anaccountability team that I've
used over the years, many, manytimes, where I report to them
every week what I'm going to doand whether I've done it, and so
I tell my clients.
You know, I do this for aliving and yet I still struggle.
Quite often Same thing, afraidand undisciplined.
(55:16):
I'm afraid of the answers I'mgoing to find.
I'm not disciplined enough todo these on my own.
So reaching out to other peoplefor me has been a lifesaver.
And you put somewhere, rode, Ibelieve somewhere.
I heard that coaching is forwinners, and I think about that
and I think it's even beyondthat.
It's asking for help is forwinners and I, you know, when I
(55:39):
started this business and I kindof alluded to this before we
started recording Marshall whenI started this at 29 years old,
I purposely never read a book oncoaching and there were a few
books scattered out there notvery many, and I didn't talk to
any other coaches that I notthat I knew many, but I knew
there were some out there 29years ago and I said no, I'm
going to do this on my own, I'mgoing to do it my way.
(55:59):
I don't want anybody telling mehow to do this.
Oh, what a mistake that was.
I look back and think man, thatwas the one big blunder I've
made in my coaching career is.
At an early age I thought I wasa rock and I was an island and I
could do it all on my own.
And I have definitely changedthat mind shift, thankfully,
probably through necessity morethan anything else over my life.
(56:22):
But I do like this.
I love this idea of thesequestions and I will commit
today that I will do this everyday Good, and I will report to
you back in six months.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
And life is good and it's been wonderful to talk to
you.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
It's been a pleasure talking to you, my friend.
I know you've got other thingsand other commitments today, but
I just want to take the time toagain.
I said this before we startedtoday You've been a personal and
professional hero of mine foryears.
I want to thank you for comingon the podcast, but more than
anything, I want to thank youfor the impact you've made on me
and on the world around you.
I'm blessed to share this earthwith you right now.
Speaker 3 (56:54):
Well, thank you so much.
You've made my day and I justhope that maybe a few people
listening to this podcasthopefully have a little better
life based on our conversation,I know.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I have.
Thank you, my friend, have ablessed day today.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Bye have a blessed day today.
Thank you, bye-bye, bye-byeEveryone.
Thank you for tuning in.
Honestly, this was one of myhighlight podcasts.
This is episode number 152, Ibelieve, and I'm so glad to be
able to share Marshall and hiswisdom and his journey and his
(57:30):
beauty with you today.
I'm blessed to have thisinterview to share with all of
you.
I'll talk to you all a weekfrom today.
Same time, same place.
In the meantime, please get outthere and strive to give and be
your best, show love andrespect to others and to
yourself, and please live withpurpose.
I appreciate each and everysingle one of you.
Hello and welcome to the Bamboo Lab Podcast with your
host, peak Performance Coach,brian Bosley.
Are you stuck on the hamsterwheel of life, spinning and
spinning but not really movingforward?
Are you ready to jump off andsoar?
Are you finally ready to sculptyour life?
If so, you've landed in theright place.
(00:21):
This podcast is created andbroadcast just for you, all of
you strivers, thrivers andsurvivors out there.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Brian and the Bamboo Lab,
feel free to reach out toexplore your true peak level at
wwwbamboolab3.com.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the
Bamboo Lab Podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianBosley.
Folks, I have to share with youtoday.
I have been excited for thisinterview for two years now.
We have one of my personal andprofessional heroes on today,
and other than my mother, who wehaven't gotten on yet I'll be
(01:02):
able to say that again,hopefully, in a few months when
she comes on this is the firsttime I've ever introduced
somebody as such.
Today, folks, we have DrMarshall Goldsmith on.
Marshall has been recognized asone of the top 10 business
thinkers in the world and thetop-rated executive coach at the
Thinkers 50th Ceremony inLondon since 2011.
Folks, he is a mentor and coachto the top executives and
(01:25):
thinkers and leaders all acrossthe world.
He has written four New YorkTimes and Wall Street Journal
bestsellers.
One is called the Earned Life,which I just finished reading a
few weeks ago.
Another one is Mojo.
The third one is Triggers,which I just finished this week
for the second time, and mypersonal all-time success book
titled what Got you here Won'tGet you there.
(01:47):
The editors of Amazoncom haverecognized two of his books both
Triggers and what Got you here,won't Get you there as being
the top 100 leadership andsuccess books ever written.
He is the only author alivetoday with two books on the list
author alive today with twobooks on the list.
(02:08):
On LinkedIn, marshall has beenranked number 58 for content
creators in the world, out of250 million users, and on all
social medias he's in the top 10of all content creators in the
field of leadership andmanagement.
But, more importantly, he's aBuddhist philosopher, he's the
father of two, he's agrandfather and he's the husband
of Lida, my new friend Marshall.
Welcome to the Bamboo Labpodcast.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I'm honored to be here Wellthank you Now.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I told you before we started recording, I've been
following you since 2007,.
Since I read the book what Gotyou here, won't Get you there,
which just changed the way Ithink about my life, both
personally and professionally.
So I've gotten to study you andyou know, watch your content on
social media and thedocumentary that was recently
made about you.
But can you please tell theaudience the bamboo pack, as we
(02:56):
call them a little bit aboutyourself?
You know where you're from yourchildhood, your family, who or
what inspired you growing up?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, I mean, I like the title helping ordinary
people do extraordinary things.
I was brought up in abackground you could say was
pretty ordinary.
I'm from a small town inKentucky called Valley Station,
kentucky.
I was brought up in alow-income, low-education
environment.
The first four years we were inschool we had an outhouse.
We didn't have indoor plumbingso I didn't go to Harvard Prep
and my high school came innumber two from the bottom in
(03:28):
Kentucky in academic achievement.
So that's you know.
I wasn't brought up to writingfor the New York Times
bestsellers.
From there the odds were notreal good.
So then I went to undergradschool, a little engineering
school, rose-hulman Institute ofTechnology.
I made very high test scores,fortunately, and a terrible
attitude.
Almost got thrown out, madefive Ds, barely graduated.
(03:51):
But last year I went back andgave the commencement address,
got an honorary PhD and I saidlet's hear it for the bottom of
the class.
You never know, you never knowwho's going to be a success,
let's hear it for the bottom.
Then I got an MBA at IndianaUniversity and a PhD at UCLA.
I was a college professor anddean and then for the next 47
(04:12):
years I did three things Itraveled all around the world
speaking and teaching.
So I've been to 102 countrieson American Airlines alone.
I have over 11 million frequentflyer miles.
I'm a mega, mega flyer.
Then I love speaking andteaching.
I don't do that anymore, but Idid it for 47 years.
Then I coach people.
As you mentioned, I'm in thecoaches CO4, pfizer, glaxo,
(04:34):
world Bank, walmart, mayo Clinicyou know on and on and on.
And what I like about coachingis that's where I learn
everything.
So I've coached five people whoare CEO of the Air in the
United States, and so I'velearned a whole lot from these
people.
And then the final thing is, asyou mentioned, I write books
and articles.
Now I have done four New YorkTimes bestsellers, but I've also
(04:57):
done about 50 books thatvirtually no one read other than
my mother, my father andassociated relatives.
So I have done a few books andsold four million copies, but
I've also done a bunch thatdidn't sell any.
So anyway, life is great.
I live in Nashville.
I live in Nashville.
Now we'll impress yourlisteners.
I've got fancy neighbors.
One of my neighbors is in theRascal Slats, a great country
(05:19):
group.
Nicole Kidman is one of myneighbors.
Keith Urban is my neighbor.
Reese Witherspoon is myneighbor.
Reese Witherspoon is myneighbor, and the woman who owns
the house across the street isTaylor Swift.
So I lived here in Nashville.
My daughter is a professor atVanderbilt.
That's why I lived here.
I've got two grandkids here andmy son's an entrepreneur and he
lives in Austin, texas.
(05:41):
So that's the story of me.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Wasn't your daughter on the TV show Survivor?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
She was on the third season of Survivor.
About 40 people watched herevery week, yeah.
So she was on Survivor in thethird season and that kind of
went to her head.
So she went to Hollywood afterthat to be a movie star.
That lasted about two years.
So she got her butt handed toher, which is good for her.
It taught her a little humility.
Then she went back to Yale andgot a PhD and, as I said, now
(06:09):
she's an endowed chair, fullprofessor at Vanderbilt and
she's now the associate provost,whatever that is.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I did some research on your children and I did see
that I didn't know she was onSurvivor.
That's one piece of informationI did not know until the last
few days.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's it .
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I've really been fascinated about learning about
your childhood with your dadbeing in the.
Was he a mechanic or he had anauto shop of some type?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
He had a little two-pump gas station.
Gas station, yeah, mechanic andauto shop of the stretch.
This is a two-pump gas station.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
And your mother said to what?
To you when you were growing up?
I thought that was so.
I've heard you talk about thisso many times, about your mother
talking about your mechanicalskills.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah, she said.
She told me I was smart.
I was extremely smart.
I was probably the smartest kidin Ballard Station, kentucky,
and I had no mechanical skills.
And I will never have anymechanical skills.
She didn't want me to work atthe gas station, right?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, how'd that turn out for you?
How many?
What kind of mechanical skillsdo you have today?
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Well, what happened is I'm never in cars, encouraged
around cars, tools, mechanicalthings, so I don't learn.
So, my friends, you know, whatdo you think about this
universal join?
I thought that was somethingpeople smoked, right.
I don't know what universaljoin is and I take a test, a
United States Army aptitude test.
I think I scored the bottom twopercentile of the United States
.
They show you pictures of tools.
(07:33):
You had to guess the name ofthe tools.
I don't know the name of thesetools, right?
So now the Army said I have nomechanical aptitude.
Oh, by the way, key oh, by theway, key word to this
conversation, on a serious note,is the word aptitude.
Now, no mechanical achievementmeans you haven't done it.
No, mechanical aptitude meansyou can't do it, can't do it.
(07:55):
When somebody says you have noaptitude, that means you can't
do it.
So I've never encouraged you onany of this stuff.
I'm 26 years old, I'm getting aPhD at UCLA and the teacher is
a guru figure.
Dr Kanban says what are you goodat?
What do you need to do better?
Well, I said what am I good at?
Oh, scholarly pursuits,research.
What was I saying?
Smart, smart, I am smart.
(08:15):
What do you know good at.
I said I have no mechanicalskills.
I will never have anymechanical skills.
He said how do you know?
I said said it's hopeless.
I took a test.
I was defeated by random chance.
He said how are yourmathematical skills?
Oh, perfect score in the SATmath achievement test.
Nine courses of math, bestcalculus, excellent mathematical
skills.
(08:35):
He said why is it?
You can solve complexmathematical problems, but you
cannot solve simple mechanicalproblems.
I thought that was a good point.
He says how's your androidcoordination?
I said I guess it's okay.
I could play pinball games,shoot pool.
He said why could you playpinball games or shoot pool, but
you can't have anyone else?
When I was 26 years old, Irealized there's only one reason
(08:59):
I had no mechanical aptitude.
I was told I had no mechanicalskills.
There was no physiologicalreason, I had no mechanical
skills and I just believed itand it became part of my
identity.
So I see this all the time.
When I coach people, somebodysays I can't listen, I can't
listen.
I've never been able to listen.
I can't listen.
Look at the guy's ears.
What are you?
(09:19):
Got something stuck in there.
Why can't you listen?
You can't you listen.
You can't listen to.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
You keep telling yourself you can't listen.
Well, you know, I you have.
We share a similar story.
My father was.
I grew up in a small town inmichigan and my father, father
who passed away in 1971 when Iwas four and a half, and he was
a mechanic and owned a gasstation and an auto repair shop
as well, and I was young.
But he would tell my two olderbrothers if you ever pick up a
wrench, I'm going to hit youwith it.
(09:48):
There's a better way to make aliving, and one of my brothers
has zero mechanical aptitudeskills or hasn't tried them.
The other one is very adept atbuilding fixing, repairing.
So one listened and one didn't,and I was too young to hear him
so I don't think he was talkingto me.
That's the way life is.
(10:09):
You shared a story that I heardone time Marshall about I
believe the gentleman DennisMudd is that some was that the
name.
He did a roof for your parents.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah, that's what led to my.
Let me tell you, I got into thecoaching business or the
leadership development businessat all.
So I'm a very young man and Ijust finished my PhD at UCLA.
So I'm very fortunate and I metthis man named Dr Paul Hersey.
Now he and Ken Blanchardinvented something called
situational leadership.
I'm very lucky.
(10:40):
So I'm a young guy.
So he kindly invites me to goto his class for free, which
cost 500 bucks a person backthen.
So I'm sitting in the backgoing man, this guy's good, I
want to be him when I grow up.
Well, I said look, I'll servethe coffee.
I'll move the tables, I'll sitin the back.
Just let me sit here and learnfrom you.
(11:01):
That was smart.
One day he got double booked.
He said can you do what I do?
I said I don't know.
Can you do this?
I said I don't know.
He said I'll pay $1,000 for oneday.
This was 47 years ago.
I'm a 28-year-old kid, I'mmaking $15,000 a year.
(11:23):
He said I'll give you $1,000for a day.
I said sign me up, coach.
So I fly to New York.
I do a program for theMetropolitan Life Insurance
Company.
They're phenomenally angry whenI show up because I'm not him.
But then I got ranked firstplace of all the speakers for
the whole two-week program.
He calls them up expecting toget his butt handed to him and
(11:47):
people at MetLife said look, wewere upset, but this guy came in
first place, send him again.
He called me up and says youwant to do this again?
I said I'm making $15,000 ayear, you're paying $10,000 a
day.
Yes, sir, I'll do this again.
That's how I got into leadershipdevelopment and in coaching,
somewhat accidental.
(12:08):
There was nothing calledexecutive coaching, there was no
field of coaching.
So I just meet this CEO I'mworking with.
He says I've got this kid young, smart, dedicated, hardworking.
He said he's a jerk.
He's arrogant, stubborn.
It would be worth a fortune tome if we changed kids' behavior.
So, remembering our previousconversation, I said I like
fortunes, maybe I could help him.
(12:28):
He said I doubt it.
I said I think I can do it.
He said I doubt it.
I said look, I'll work with akid for a year.
He gets better paying me.
You don't get better as free.
What did the CEO say, sold, hegot better, I got paid.
I did not get paid one cent formy coaching for 47 years unless
my clients got better.
(12:48):
Better was not judged by me orthem.
It was judged by everyonearound them.
Where did I learn this, dennisBudd?
Back in Kentucky we were poor.
The roof starts leaking.
You got to have a new roof.
You may be poor, but you don'thave a roof.
The house is trashed.
You may be poor, but you don'thave a roof, the house is
trashed.
Well, to save money, my dad hadme try to help Dennis Mudd.
(13:09):
All right, so I tried to helpDennis Mudd.
We'd make this roof and theroof you know he's very proud of
.
The roof worked very hard.
It got me interested to try todo a good job.
So the roof gets done.
Dennis Mudd who was, by the wayway, probably even more poor
than we were looked at my dadnamed Bill and says Bill, I want
(13:30):
you to inspect the roof.
If that roof is of high quality, pay me.
If that roof is not of highquality, it's free.
I looked at Dennis Mudd.
I was maybe 14, 15.
You know what I said I want tobe him when I grow up.
I looked at Dennis Mudd I wasmaybe 14, 15.
You know what I said I want tobe him when I grow up.
Wow, that guy's poor, but he'snot cheap.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Right and as somebody who truly believes in their
craft and wants to, they havetheir purpose down in life as to
provide, in his case, forDennis was to provide a solid
roof, keep the customer happy.
And you got to wonder, I thinkabout stories like that.
I've heard you share that storybefore and I think I read it in
the Earned Life or one of thebooks that I've read, and I
(14:15):
thought, think about thosemoments in life when we have an
opportunity, like Dennis didwhen you were 14 years old, to
say that to your father, wherehe didn't think that this was
going to create a turning pointfor you or something that you
were going to take later on inlife and use it to impact the
world.
And I think about stories likethat in the sense of everything
(14:36):
we do and say is being watchedto some degree, some by a lot of
people, some by one or twopersons, but at the same time,
when we do things like that, itcan have such a dramatic turning
point for another human beingthat watches how we choose to
either use our integrity orperhaps not to use our integrity
for the negative.
(14:56):
And when I read that story itmade me think.
I read that story, I think forthe first time a few months ago,
about Dennis sharing that withyour father and you being a
participant, and when he saidthat I thought, oh my gosh, I
wonder how I'm acting, thethings I'm saying, how am I
holding my own integrity in mybelief system for the value I
provide to people?
(15:16):
How am I holding that to thattest?
That's a tough test to holdyourself to to say I'm not going
to get paid unless I do the job.
I think that's, that'sfantastic.
And I didn't know that's howyou your fee for service with
your clients was was structuredeither until the last year or so
.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I think, that's fantastic.
Well, you know, what happenedis to me, dennis Mudd had more
integrity than I will ever have.
He was poor, right, he neededthe money and you know, he
doesn't get paid, he doesn't eatso well, right, I was never
that poor, you.
I mean when I was working withpaul hersey, when I talked to
(15:53):
that ceo, right, I mean I wasmaking 200 000 bucks a year 45
years ago.
I wasn't poor.
I was not poor, you know, Imean, what I did is integrity.
What he did was more integrity.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Okay, that's a good way to look at it.
I do see that a lot thoughMarshall.
In the world I see a lot ofpeople who have nothing are the
ones who oftentimes give themost.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Well, I mean, yeah, I agree with you and you're
saying ordinary people doingextraordinary things.
I published that thing aboutDennis Mudd that you read and
somebody sent me an email andsaid you know, after Dennis Mudd
put on roofs, he was a busdriver and then, after he would
drop me off in the bus, he wouldtalk to me sometimes.
(16:41):
This kid became the number onesmall business guy in Kentucky.
You know what he said.
Thank you, Dennis Mudd.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Wow, it gives me goosebumps when I think about
the impact we have on peoplearound us and everything we say,
think, feel, do people arewatching, and if we all could
take that into account in ourown lives, what dramatic impact
we could make to better thisworld.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You know, Dennis Marshall one of the things that
reminds me of Dennis when I wasliving in Grand Rapids, Michigan
, I moved four years ago tofollow my daughter and my son,
kind of like you did, frommoving to Kentucky.
From moving to Kentucky, mydaughter moved to Marquette,
Michigan, on Lake Superior, andthree years later my son
graduated high school anddeclared to go to Northern
(17:29):
Michigan University, which is inthe same town.
My daughter lives on on LakeSuperior, and I followed them up
.
But before then, everyChristmas, right around the
Christmas season, my son and Iwe would go buy 25, 30 pizzas
and we'd collect clothing and,you know, boots and hats and
jackets and scarves, and and acouple of years, we brought his
(17:51):
friends with us, took them rightout of school and said this is
what we're doing.
We would go down to the, to thepoorest area of Grand Rapids,
Michigan, downtown, in the city,where the homeless people would
, you know, come out of theshelters, and we would give
pizzas and we'd open up the backof my Jeep and we'd give out
clothes and what I was sosurprised by this I would offer
a pizza to everybody, a fullpizza, you know, and they
(18:12):
wouldn't take it and run.
They would go down the streetand they'd open it up to their
friends.
And when we'd drive away, we'dsee, you know, three or four
blocks down the road there'd bea group of people eating a box
of pizza that the one person whogot it from us was sharing with
them.
And I would stop and askindividuals who I didn't think
had pizza, who weren't therewhen we gave it away, could I
give you some clothes or pizza?
(18:34):
And so many of these peoplewould say no, I have had enough
food today and I have enoughclothing.
But there's a group of peopledown here that might need it.
And I thought these people haveliterally almost nothing
materialistically in life, butyet they're turning down food,
they're sharing food, they'resharing clothing and offering it
to other people.
And it was such an eye-openingexperience for myself and
(18:55):
especially for my son and hisfriends.
But they were 11, 12, 13 yearsold, and so when I read about
Dennis, I thought that's so truein so many areas of life, those
who have the least often givethe most, as long as the
integrity is intact.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
So I like it.
Yeah, it's completely true.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Can I ask you a question?
I love this question, Marshall.
In the last, let's say, 12months, what is one of the
greatest learnings you've had inlife?
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I would say in the last 12 months, as I've grown
older and older, my mission inlife has become simpler and
simpler For everyone listening.
You're part of my mission inlife.
My mission today is quitesimple I want to help you, a
real human being, have a littlebetter life.
So if one person listening tothis podcast has a little better
(19:50):
life, that's my mission.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Well, I know you've done that already today with me.
So, and when this thing airs, Ithink you're going to help a
few people have a little betterlife.
Thank you for that.
Now, was that something whenyou were younger, starting off
in coaching?
Did you have a differentmission back then, or a
different purpose, or had youeven really defined your purpose
yet?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
No, I was just making it up to set land.
There was nothing calledcoaching, I know there wasn't.
People said you want to be thiswhen you grew up.
There was no, this right.
I just made it up, you know,and basically, look, I was
enjoying what I did.
So it's not like I'm and I, youknow, look, I started out poor.
But when I went into business Iwent to work with Paul Hersey.
I was.
(20:33):
I made a ton of money as a kid.
I mean, when I was 40 years oldI moved into basically today's
$560 home.
So you know, I didn't start atthe bottom.
My first clients were IBM,mckinsey, warner Lambert, you
know, weyerhaeuser, et cetera.
So I kind of started at the topagain because of Paul Hersey.
(20:54):
The reason I give everythingaway is because of Peter Drucker
and Paul Hersey and all thepeople that helped me.
Maybe I can help some of us.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Well, I think, yeah, one of the things I think about.
When I started 29 years ago andyou started long before I did
and I know you're the pioneer of, really kind of the pioneer of
executive coaching, I refer toyou as the godfather of
executive coaching and, from myperspective anyway, and you're,
think, one of the the thefounders of the 360 feedback, um
(21:25):
, custom design, I think, 360feedback.
So I can't imagine, when Istarted I didn't know there were
things as executive coaches, Ijust knew I was a fairly good,
uh, motivator and inspirer ofpeople when I worked for
american express financial and Iwas young, I was young and
naive, so I didn't know anybetter.
When did you work for AmericanExpress?
I started there in 1991 as afinancial advisor.
(21:48):
Who was the CEO, harvey?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Golub.
Harvey Golub was one of myclients.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
He was oh yeah, Well, I remember I had a chance to
talk with him one time we werein Monterey, California.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
American Express was our biggest client.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Okay, yeah, I remember he came to our
leadership conference inMonterey, california, and I was
there and he left and ahelicopter flew him in and they
flew him out and he was walkingout the door with a couple of
guys surrounding him.
And he was walking out the doorwith a couple of guys
surrounding him Like I don'tknow if they were security,
because he couldn't flycommercial, I don't think,
because of potential threats,terrorist threats.
(22:25):
So I remember he was going tothe helicopter that was there
and I looked around and nobodywas walking him to his
helicopter other than these twosecurity guys.
So I piled it behind him and Istarted talking to him and I
said I just want to thank you.
He asked me who I was, where Icame from, and I said I'm from,
I'm the Detroit, I'm the Detroitregion.
He goes oh, you're one of JohnHans' boys.
John Hans was our vice presidentin charge of Detroit.
(22:46):
I said yeah, I shook his handand he got in his helicopter and
flew away.
It was one of the highlights ofmy life.
I thought why is nobody elsetaking this 30-second
opportunity to meet company you?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
know of our parent company.
I know Harvey Gold very well,or I knew him very well.
He was our biggest customer forAmerican Express.
Yeah, in fact there's a guynamed Joe Kilty that he had an
HR for American Express and thename of our business was Kilty
(23:20):
Goldsmith and Company.
Okay, so Joe was my partner,went to work for Harvey, so I've
got a long history there.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Well, we have a few similarities.
Then you know anothersimilarity we have we share the
same birthday, march 20th.
March 20th yeah, I just noticedthat a couple days ago when I
was preparing to talk to you, Ithought, well, our fathers were
both in the mechanical trades,didn't want us to go into that
trade and we both share abirthday.
So there you go.
Can I ask you a question?
(23:49):
I love this question, marshall,and it's a really deep question
.
A lot of my listeners like tohear what is one of the most
difficult things you have gonethrough in your life.
And then, how did you getthrough that time?
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Well, I think you know, if I look at my life, I
have been remarkably blessed andI think one of my most
difficult adjustments when I wasyoung was just making peace
with life.
When I was in undergrad school,you know I was not particularly
happy back then.
You know I was not particularlyhappy back then.
I was more angry,self-righteous, know-it-all and
(24:29):
really not happy and, over theyears, just learning to make
peace with life.
There's another story I'vewritten about Dr Fred Case at
UCLA who helped me.
I'm working down at City Halland he was my dissertation
advisor and I'd been at UCLA.
Who helped me.
I'm working down at City Halland he was my dissertation
advisor and I'd been at UCLA fora while and he was head of the
planning commission.
So I start ranting about thegovernment of Los Angeles.
(24:51):
Oh, he says you know, marshall,I'm getting some negative
feedback about you.
Feedback is you're kind ofnegative and judgmental and
people don't like to be aroundyou.
What's the problem?
I go rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
I start complaining about thegovernment of Los Angeles is
inefficient.
She starts laughing at me.
She says what a stunningbreakthrough.
You, marshall Goldsmith ohbrilliant one have discovered
(25:13):
the city government of LosAngeles is inefficient.
Do you have any other problems?
Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
She goes.
Oh my goodness, you havediscovered that when people give
politicians millions of dollars, they're actually not sure to
those people and everybody else.
He said I don't know, marshall,I hate to tell you this, but
Mike Barber knew all this beforehe started.
He said I'm not going to giveyou a PhD for this.
(25:35):
I said, marshall, you're comingacross as a pain in the butt,
judgmental, whiny and negative.
Option A you can continue thisbad behavior and you're fired
and you're never going tograduate with a PhD and you just
wasted five years of your life.
Or option B is you can starthaving some fun.
Try to do something good, makea real difference, but have fun
(25:55):
and quit being a pain in the ass.
What's it going to be, son?
I said well, you know, dr Case,let's have a little fun here.
That was good advice.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
That's great advice.
Do you think, when you foundBuddhism and you started
incorporating Buddhism into yourlife, did that help you to find
that peace that you werelooking for and to make peace
with your life?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Oh, definitely, I'm not a religious Buddhist, I'm a
philosophical Buddhist, right.
And I mean to me, look, thereare many schools of Buddhism.
So when somebody says they're aChristian, well they can be a
Catholic or Southern Baptist orUnitarian.
That means very differentthings to different people.
The differences in Buddhism areeven bigger.
So as soon as they're Buddhist,I don't want to tell you much
(26:41):
of anything.
But my school of Buddhism isvery simple.
Buddha was I mean I don't knowif there was a Buddha, but you
know, thousands of years ago.
Who knows what really happened?
But in any case, themetaphorical Buddha was brought
up very rich.
His father was a king and hewas protected from life.
(27:01):
He lived in a bubble.
He kept getting more and moreand surrounded by beauty and
youth and all this stuff.
But then one day he was able tosneak outside the bubble with
his friend and the first trip helearned what's that People get
old, very bad.
Second trip he sneaks out, out.
(27:23):
What's that people get sick,even worse.
Third trip people die.
Old, sick, die, not good.
He said all of this, more, more,more stuff, that's not going to
do it.
He gave up on all that stuffand went out in the woods and
basically starved himself andtried to live a very simple life
(27:45):
, but that didn't work either.
You know what he learned youreally can never be happy and
find peace with more.
You can also never be happy andfind peace with less.
You finally realize somethingthere's only one thing you can
ever be happy and find peacewith what you have.
And there's only one thing youcan ever be happy and find peace
with what you have.
And there's only one time youcan ever find peace and
(28:05):
happiness.
When is that?
That would be now.
And there's only one place.
That place is called here.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
That's a tough one for a lot of people to
incorporate.
I know I have a challenge withthat.
A lot for breathing.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
I'm going to get breathing, breathing, breathing.
I'm going to give you someprotein.
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm ready.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Breathing.
You just said I have achallenge with this.
Do you have an incurablegenetic defect that is forcing
you to continue having thischallenge?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
No.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Then quit saying I have a challenge with this.
I want you to repeat after me Iused to have a challenge with
this.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I used to have a challenge with this.
I do not have an incurablegenetic defect.
I do not have an incurablegenetic defect.
Therefore, I do not have tocontinue having a challenge with
this for the rest of my life.
Therefore, I do not have tocontinue being challenged with
this for the rest of my life andI'm going to have to continue
being challenged with this forthe rest of my life and I'm
going to quit talking that wayand I'm going to quit talking
that way.
(29:05):
There you go, there you go.
I will listen to that and writethose words down again, trust
me, and I'll put those rightnext to my chair in my office
every morning.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Very good.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Very good.
I was really struck by thepicture of you that you shared
as one of your best pictures,one of your favorite pictures.
I think you were in.
I believe you were in Africa in1984 with the Red Cross, yeah
that was it.
I have that picture right now,sitting propped up on my desk on
my iPad, and I know theaudience can't see this picture,
(29:36):
but can you share the meaning?
So, everybody, it's a pictureof marshall with the red cross,
with a bunch of african children, and they're testing them for
uh, primarily I, for lack of abetter way to say it whether
they're going to live or or not.
Can you share the meaningbehind that picture, in that
moment, marshall?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
yeah, there's a pictures of me.
Now again, I'm very young, Idon't know how old was back back
in 1984.
I can work backwards.
So I'm a very young guy.
I'm 35 years old and I'm aconsultant and I'm going to
Africa because I was a volunteercoach for the CEO of the Red
Cross in the United States andhe was kind enough to invite me
(30:16):
on his trip he thought it wouldbe good for me.
Well, he was right about that.
To the library on this trip.
He thought it would be good forme.
Well, he was right about that.
Well, I go to Africa and therethey had a great famine and
massive starvation.
See, people in the UnitedStates say, well, we have
starvation here.
No, we don't.
Americans have never seenstarvation.
(30:38):
When there is starvation, thereis no food in their garbage can
.
There's no food on the floor.
People eat anything.
Starvation is ugly.
I'm around thousands of peoplewho are literally dying.
Well, that picture shows me andI'm kneeling down next to a
woman and she's kneeling downand there's a long line of kids
between the ages of 2 and 16.
(30:58):
Why 2 and 16?
Pretty random.
If you're over 16, you're onyour own.
If you're under two, you'regoing to die anyway.
So she's measuring the arms ofthe kids.
If their arm is too little,well, sorry, you're going to die
anyway.
No food for you.
If their arm is too big, well,you're not hungry enough.
(31:20):
If their arm is in the middle,you got food.
So that picture is in my office.
I look at it every day and Ikeep that picture as a little
reminder Every time I startwanting to complain about
something.
Poor me, isn't life tough?
Not so much.
See, that picture is the me ofthen looking at the me today,
(31:40):
and that me is of then lookingat the me today, and that me is
sending a message to the metoday Be grateful for what you
have.
You're not in that line, by theway.
That was hard for me,unbelievably difficult for me.
I'm not measuring the arms.
Right, you're not making thatfinal decision.
Yeah, I'm not sitting thereplaying God, right, she's
(32:02):
literally sending kids off totheir death.
You know how hard is it for her.
Remember next, how hard is itfor the kids.
That's not fun, no, but theworst.
You look at that picture.
What's the worst?
Mama, yeah, how hard is it formama?
Yeah, your kid dies, sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Wow.
You know, one of the thingsthat I got from that is just
being grateful, practicinggratitude, and obviously the
external me part of me wants tosay I want to go over there and
save these children, but that'sa very large feat.
But obviously we can donate ourmoney.
We can donate our resources,our time to do as much as we can
(32:42):
for those who are sodisenfranchised throughout the
world.
But the one thing is a lot ofus don't have a lot of capacity
to do that.
We have some, but all of ushave the capacity to take this
picture in this moment and thethings we know that are going on
in the world and say, okay, howcan I practice gratitude in my
life?
Because to some degree it'salmost honoring those who are
(33:07):
not as fortunate as we are,Because I know, for me I have in
the past, but I'm working onthat because I do not have a
genetic flaw.
As you said.
I have really worked in the lastfive years on practicing
gratitude every day.
You know, I get up, Marshall,at five o'clock.
I do the same routine everysingle day for about an hour and
(33:28):
a half.
I have a very structuredmorning six days a week and the
third, fourth thing on my listevery morning is I write down
five things.
I'm grateful for that at thatmoment, and it could be the warm
cup of coffee in my hand.
It's the birds chirpingSometimes.
They're small things I'm justgrateful for, and I have found
by doing that it has changed mymindset to the point where I see
a lot more beauty in the lifearound me and a lot less
(33:51):
negative, because my mind isbeing programmed to seek those
out and we all can do thatexercise.
It's free, it takes very littletime and we all have the
capacity to sit down and writeor think about the things we are
most grateful for on aconsistent basis.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
I think it's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
In that picture.
Actually, with your permission,of course, I'm going to have
that put on my wall because Iwant it to be a constant
reminder of how fortunate we areand how we have to use the
fortunes we've had and theblessings we've been given in
life to impact the world aroundus.
Because when I watched yourdocumentary oh my goodness, I
(34:28):
watched it two or three timeswhen you talked about that story
right away, I just took apicture of my computer screen.
When they blew up the pictureand I had it put on the computer
, they showed it.
I took a picture of that, soit's a little blurry, but it is
a really good reminder of howblessed many of us are in the
world and we can't take that forgranted.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, well, thank you , I think that's a very good
idea.
I'll tell you what.
You send me an email and I'llmake a nice copy of the picture
and write a little note on itand send it back to you.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I will do that this afternoon.
I'll get an email out to you.
Thank you, I appreciate that,Marshall.
One of the things I was reallystruck by and I remember reading
this in 2007 or 2008, wheneverI read what Got you here Won't
Get you, there was never start aquestion with no but or however
.
Is that something you stillpractice?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, tell me.
Don't respond to anybody'sideas with no but or however.
Don't give positive recognitionwith no but or however, because
the word but just destroyswhatever you said before.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And I know in the documentary that I watched, you
had an executive sitting next toyou in the airplane and you
told him that right away, and Idon't know how many times he
said that he started, he lost$420.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I charge you $20 every time you do it.
He lost $420 in an hour and ahalf.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And you raised a lot of money for charities with that
.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, the money all goes to charity.
And at the end of the hour anda half he said thank you.
He said I had no idea.
I do this constantly.
Now he said I did it 21 times,with you throwing it in my face
every time I did it.
How many times were I done?
Had you not been throwing it inmy face 50 times, 100 times?
(36:22):
Now?
His feedback was people thoughthe was stubborn.
He said no wonder people thinkI'm stubborn.
The first thing I do whensomeone talks I prove I know
more than them or they're wrong.
Over and over and over again.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Well, since I saw that I've been really focusing
on not responding to people'sstatements with those three
words and even in my writingI've been really focusing on not
responding to people'sstatements with those three
words, and even in my writingI've been noticing I've been
really catching myself.
When I journal to myself in themornings I catch myself.
Even today I said something tothe effect of I'm very excited
to interview Marshall Goldsmithtoday.
(36:55):
I feel I'm very prepared.
And then I started to puthowever, am I overly prepared?
Sometimes you can over-preparesometimes and and it throws you
off.
And I crossed it right off.
I said I.
Now I?
The only question I have isperhaps I'm overly prepared.
So, but I was, I caught myselfwanting to use the but or
however word.
Good, my clients, my clients,won't be happy if I start
(37:16):
charging them every time.
They say those.
But I'm gonna I'm gonna throwthat out there this week happy
if I start charging them everytime they say those, but I'm
going to, I'm going to throwthat out there.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
This week the money all goes to charity.
Anyway, let them pick.
Let them pick the charity.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You know one of the stories that I really I got a
funny story about this yeah goahead One guy I'm charging.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
My clients are.
A lot of them are rich people,right.
So this guy's and the money'sall going to a charity.
I have 20 bucks.
He picked the charity 40 bucks.
He gets up for like 200 bucks.
He said that's expensive.
I said, excuse me, youpersonally donated over $10
million to this charity lastyear and you're complaining
(37:51):
about 20 bucks.
What's wrong with you?
He said you're right, 20 bucks,is not it?
He didn't want to hear it.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
That's right.
Yeah, we don't really like thatinstant feedback coming at us
when we make those type oferrors.
Right, I know you have beenclose friends with Frances
Hesselbein before she passed.
I know the former CEO of GirlScouts of America.
Will you share the story aboutdoing the laundry?
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, to me that story, story number one, a
little context.
Francis Husslebein, peterDrucker said, was the greatest
leader he has ever met in hislife.
And Peter Drucker would not saythat for no reason.
He did not give gratuitouscompliments to anybody.
So Francis Husslebein'm just anamazing human being.
I had the honor of coaching her.
(38:43):
I was a volunteer, but ofwhatever she learned from me, I
learned a hundred times from her.
So anyway, she calls me up oneday and says I want you to give
this talk, if you don't mind, tothe heads of the Girl Scouts in
the big cities you know NewYork, chicago, la.
I said well, frances, I'm happyto do it, but I'm booked, like
every day of the week for a longtime.
(39:03):
I could only do it on Saturday.
She said you work on Saturday,we work on Saturday.
You're the volunteer, not me,no problems.
Well then I thought a littlemore.
I said look, francis, it's veryembarrassing for me to bring up
, but I'm in a different cityevery day.
I'm going to run out of cleanclothes and you know you got to
have clean clothes eventually.
(39:25):
And is there any way thatsomehow you could help me get
clean clothes?
Francis said not at all problem.
We're going to work here in theGirl Scout Center.
You spend the night here andall you got to do is take all
your clothes, put them in a pilein the middle of the floor and
then I'll have someone pick upyour dirty clothes, we'll clean
them all and then, when you getdone, all your clothes are clean
(39:45):
.
Well, I said, you know I wasembarrassed to say this, but
thank you so much, francis, fordoing that.
So the next morning I'm havingbreakfast with the head of the
Girl Scouts in New York and LA,very distinguished women.
Right and I look, and walkingdown the hall is Frances
Husslebutt.
She's carrying my dirty clothes, dirty underwear, dirty socks.
(40:07):
She's taking them herself tothe laundry room.
Every woman saw her.
What a message.
Talk about servant leadership?
Well, she did not have to givea speech.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
She just acted leadership.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And, by the way, after that she didn't have to
give a speech.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
No, you know, I, when I I read that or I believe I
saw that somewhere and I thoughtabout myself.
When I was younger, marshall,when I was coaching leadership
and doing a lot of talks andcoaching on leadership to my
clients, I was so adamantlyagainst servant leadership.
Robert Greenleaf, who was kindof the founder of the term
(41:00):
servant leadership, I, robertGreenleaf, who is the kind of
the founder of the term servantleadership, anyway, I would bash
him in talks and coachingsessions and say there's no such
thing.
You don't put the cart beforethe horse, you have to have the
horse first.
I was young, I was 29 years oldwhen I started coaching.
I was very full of a lot ofbravado, a lot of ego, a lot of
(41:22):
insecurity, a lot of insecurity.
And my clients would say, well,why is servant leadership so
bad?
And I'd say because you can'thave leadership without the
leader being first.
And that's kind of how Isomewhat grew up in the
corporate world in the five orsix years I was there.
But it wasn't taught to us, itwas just kind of the message I
heard.
And it was probably eight to tenyears after I got into coaching
(41:44):
, so maybe 18, 19 years ago,when I started making a shift
and thinking wait a minute, whyam I so against servant
leadership?
What's wrong with servantleadership?
And when you study you knowwhether it's Jesus or Buddha,
any moral philosopher from ourhistory it's all about servant
leadership.
(42:04):
And I think Jim Collins' bookGood to Great maybe, or one of
his books, kind of set me onthat path back in the day of
thinking, wait a minute, maybethere's something to this phrase
.
And now that's really all Icoach is.
When I talk leadership, it's allprimarily servant leadership.
So I was able to thankfullycatch myself in my insecurities
(42:26):
and my lack of experience andwisdom.
But it took me about eight to10 years after I started
coaching before I made thatmetamorphosis and that change.
And when I heard about Franciswith the laundry, I thought
that's the perfect exampleThat'll be imprinted in my
(42:46):
memory and I can visualize thatin my head every time I'm
working with a client andworking with them on their
leadership skill sets.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's just, she was a wonderful leader, a wonderful
role model.
She lived to be 107, and I'lltell you another story about her
.
I got to see her right beforeshe died and someone was taking
care of her.
They called me and said youknow, if you want to say goodbye
, you've got to say goodbye.
(43:09):
So I basically went over to saygoodbye and I thought she was
probably in a coma.
She can't even hear me,whatever.
So this woman says to herMarshall's here.
Her eyes light up.
She says Marshall, it's sowonderful to see you.
She talked to me 20 minutes.
She said stuff like I just feelgreat.
She was dying.
She couldn't eat, she couldn'tmove.
(43:30):
She has no doubt ofexcruciating pain.
I feel great.
How are you doing my wife'sLida?
How's Lida?
I made a call with Lida.
She talks to Lida on the phone.
She could barely talk when Lidawas on the phone.
Boom, her voice picks up verystrong.
That 20 minutes was not abouther, it was about me.
It was about me.
(43:51):
Well, she's dying.
She wasn't thinking aboutherself.
She never complained.
It was never poor me.
Look at me.
I'm dying, I'm miserable.
No, I feel great.
She is so wonderful to see you.
You've meant so much in my life.
Thank you, you know, you'vebeen such a wonderful friend.
I was the customer, not her.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
And that, to me, is the definition of what you call
an earned life she's earned herlife Wow.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
That was it.
She never changed.
She died at 107.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
I saw that.
That's amazing.
What an impact she's made onthe world.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
And on me, on you.
Yeah, how many times have Iever heard her complain about
poor me?
I'm miserable.
It's not fair.
I'm a victim.
Never.
Another great leader.
Our coach, alan Mulally, wassealed for it and he was in the
movie as well.
I saw that Alan Mulally is justan amazing guy Huge track
record, a financial track record, but also 97% approval rating
(45:00):
from every employee at a unioncompany.
I've known Alan for decades.
How many times have I heard himcomplain?
Never.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Never I loved talking about his life plan review.
I think it was his businessplan review that he would use
with his executives with the red, yellow, green.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Yeah, he's an amazing guy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
The simplicity of that idea.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, he's an amazing man.
He didn't do anythingcomplicated, he just did it.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Wasn't he at Boeing before he went to Ford?
Was it Boeing?
Speaker 3 (45:35):
He was at Boeing for the 7th, 37th, huge success at
Boeing.
He went to Ford.
He was at Boeing for theirheyday and then he went to Ford
and totally turned the companyaround.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yeah, I like when the two of you were talking in the
documentary and they were, Ithink, when everybody.
For the first time.
Folks, I'm going to ask you toread the Earned Life.
It'll give you a really goodinsight of Alan's business plan
review process with the red,yellow, green.
But everybody had green orsomething like that, the first
time he implemented this andboth of you were laughing and
(46:06):
saying, well, what was thecompany at the beginning?
They're losing how much moneyper year and how much debt did
they have?
But yet everybody had showedgreen and everything they were
doing was working really well.
Because they were so afraid ofperhaps the former CEO or
typical leadership of comingdown on you if you shared that
your department wasn'tperforming as well as it should
and so you wanted to spotlightyour successes and not spotlight
(46:28):
the things that weren't workingso well and how he turned that
around and to make it a verysafe place for executives,
leaders around the company andaround the world to say, hey, we
are doing some really greatthings over in my department,
but we're also have somestruggles that we need help with
.
And again, that's kind of rightaround that idea of somewhat of
servant leadership.
You know just I'm here to help.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Well, I mean, you know, Alan, the company was
losing $17 billion, goingbankrupt.
And he said everyone, talkabout your top five priorities.
16 people in the room Green ison plan, yellow is I'm not on
plan, but I have a strategy toget there, and red is I don't
have a strategy.
(47:08):
16 people, 80 priorities, allgreen, and the company is losing
$17 billion.
Al said well, look, everybody'son plan and we're losing $17
billion and we're going back.
Maybe we should reconsider theplan.
It seems to be a very bad plan.
Well, they have been brought up.
There's an old managementsaying don't come to me with a
(47:30):
problem.
Don't come to me unless youhave a solution.
That is such bad advice.
What had been taught?
If you have a problem but youhave a solution, don't come to
me.
So they said okay, boss, Iwon't.
I have a problem A and I don'thave a solution B.
So therefore, what did you justtell me?
(47:50):
Don't come to me.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I'm going to hide the problem.
Hide the problem.
Wow, I really liked the videoof you, the scene where you were
shooting pool with Jay Wagner,I think it is and I was watching
your style of that.
You have that calmness aboutyou which I'm sure you've heard
before.
When you're talking with people, you're very you, you pull
(48:13):
people in and I was watching thesecond time I watched the
documentary.
I was watching you laugh withJay and you guys were having a
good, a good time.
But as soon as you knelt down toshoot that, you had your stick
in your hand and you were aiming.
You know I'm not player, so I'mnot.
I'm a very I'm not.
I've never really enjoyed pool.
But as soon as you got down thestick in your hand and you're
(48:36):
just setting up, your face wentto a different focus.
I don't know if you evernoticed that in the documentary,
but I would go back and watchthat.
You went from this laughingcalm I'm focused now and there's
a it's a microsecond change,it's a nanosecond.
But I thought about that for amoment and I thought that right
there encapsulates what I'velearned about you through your
(48:57):
writings and through yourspeeches and through the things
I've witnessed on you, but Ireally liked that.
You said when Jay was gettingready to sink the eight ball and
he says, with this shot I'mgoing to win, and you said,
unless you scratch.
And sure, enough enough, hescratched, it was a perfect
ending.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Well, you know what you couldn't have scripted, that
you couldn't have.
No, look, look, I used to shoot.
I used to shoot for money whenI was a kid, so I was never that
great a pool player but a greatpsychologist.
So I won a lot of moneyshooting pool.
Because just because of thatscene, said I, I intentionally
(49:36):
put that thought in his head.
You know, yeah, don't scratch.
And then he put it immediately,immediately.
I want to say one thing beforewe forget.
You've been mentioning mydocumentary.
I want everybody to go towwwmarshallgoldsmithcom.
My documentary is online andit's free.
Almost all my articles are free.
(49:57):
There's a whole coach you cancome to.
Coachingcom is free.
My website, marshallgoldsmithai.
Go to marshallgoldsmithai, askme any question.
That's free, so I'm givingeverything away.
So just go to my website, startlooking at articles, watch the
documentary.
There's videos.
It's all free.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
Yeah, I'm going to include a link in the show notes
for this episode, so everybodyclick on that right away.
I keep it up on my bar at alltimes because I go on there
sometimes and search articles.
I just printed off yesterdayand I sent it to several clients
your article Leadership as aContact Sport, by the way,
marshall, and when did you writethis?
Do you remember?
Speaker 3 (50:38):
I don't exactly remember what year it was, but
that article's been readmillions of times and it
basically is 86,000 people in aresearch study.
And it basically is 86,000people in a research study and
it showed that you know, leadersthat get feedback and follow up
over and over again get better,and leaders that go to programs
like American Express was partof that study, by the way.
(50:59):
You might have been part ofthat study, I don't know, but
American Express had thousandsof people in the database.
So what happened is everybodygot feedback.
At American Express.
We did a class for all theleaders.
So what happened is everybodygot feedback at American Express
.
We did a class for all theleaders.
They all got feedback.
We invented the first 360feedback, I think for American
Express.
They're in the study.
And then we did measure.
(51:19):
Did the leader talk to you?
Like we taught them to?
Did they follow up on a regularbasis?
And if they did look at theresearch, they got better.
If they didn't, they didn't.
Well, the learning point isthey didn't get better because
they went to my class or read abook.
They got feedback.
They got better because theydid something.
You got to work.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Well, I remember reading this article several
years ago and I printed it upyesterday and I actually took it
and sent it to several clientslast night.
And when I had it printed upand I had it in my hand, I
thought I have this in myleadership file somewhere In my
leadership file, I do, but Ihave a fresh copy now, so I'm
going to reread it.
I have a question how manyyears have you been doing
(51:59):
coaching now then?
Speaker 3 (52:00):
What's the Well, 47, roughly.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
And yet you have someone call you every night and
ask you daily questions, Right?
Can you explain that to us alittle bit better?
I love that idea.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Because it's very simple.
I'm too cowardly and I'mdisciplined and do this stuff by
myself and it's hard.
See everything.
You go to my website.
I give away everything I meanyou can understand stakeholder
coaching.
It's not complicated.
You can understand dailyeverything I mean you can
understand stakeholder coaching.
It's not complicated.
You can understand dailyquestions.
I don't say anything that'shard to understand, it's just
hard to do.
It's phenomenally hard to do.
Most people with daily questions.
(52:37):
You ask yourself questionsevery day.
You get better.
Well, it's not hard tounderstand.
Just pick six questions If youdid nothing else.
There's another article.
I wrote about six questions.
Send me a note.
Six.
There's another article I wroteabout six questions.
Send me a note.
Six-question researcher.
It's on the website.
You know the daily question.
Look up the daily questionsarticle.
I think it's called Questionsthat Make a Difference, I forget
, but in any case, you askyourself questions every day and
(53:01):
I'm going to give you six andthey all begin with did I do my
best to?
The first question is did I domy best to set clear goals?
So every day you get the daystarted.
You set goals.
Did I do my best to makeprogress for achieving the goals
after I set them Measure thatevery day.
Did I do my best to every dayfind meaning Rather than waiting
for the world to be meaningful?
(53:21):
Did I create meaning?
Did I do my best to be happyRather than waiting for others
to make us happy?
Did I do my best to be happymyself?
Did I happy that I don't haveto be happy myself?
Did I do my best to be fullyengaged and did I do my best to
build great relationships withother people?
Every day, six questions didyou do your best?
If you do nothing based on thiscall, but do those six
questions every day, you'regonna have a better life.
(53:41):
The average person quits in twoweeks what I like can.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
So do you see, I obviously let's stop for a
second.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
Have you tried to to do this yourself?
I have not why.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
I'm afraid.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
Of course.
Speaker 2 (53:58):
I'm afraid of what my answers will be.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
I am too cowardly and I'm just going to do it by
myself.
And I wrote the book.
Somebody said, don't, I knowthe theory.
I wrote the theory.
I know the theory.
I know how hard it is.
I'm giving you a challenge,starting today.
You're going to do these dailyquestions every day.
It takes three or four minutesa day.
It's hard to do.
I'll tell you.
Call me up in six months andtell me how you're doing.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I commit that I'll start doing these today.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Call me in six months .
See months.
You've got the see.
If you've got the guts to makeit six months well, marshall,
I'm.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
One thing I'm really good at is follow-up, and I so I
will definitely be calling youand I'll mark it down six months
from today, in fact, I'm gonnaknow right now.
Call me up for the report.
I will certainly do that.
Yep, it's sitting on my desknow because I have these
questions printed up.
I had it in my, in my, mypodcast preparation notes.
I just find that to be whattaught me is one of the things I
(54:54):
share with my clients is, youknow, I've hired coaches, I have
mentors.
I have, you know, I have anaccountability team that I've
used over the years, many, manytimes, where I report to them
every week what I'm going to doand whether I've done it, and so
I tell my clients.
You know, I do this for aliving and yet I still struggle.
Quite often Same thing, afraidand undisciplined.
(55:16):
I'm afraid of the answers I'mgoing to find.
I'm not disciplined enough todo these on my own.
So reaching out to other peoplefor me has been a lifesaver.
And you put somewhere, rode, Ibelieve somewhere.
I heard that coaching is forwinners, and I think about that
and I think it's even beyondthat.
It's asking for help is forwinners and I, you know, when I
(55:39):
started this business and I kindof alluded to this before we
started recording Marshall whenI started this at 29 years old,
I purposely never read a book oncoaching and there were a few
books scattered out there notvery many, and I didn't talk to
any other coaches that I notthat I knew many, but I knew
there were some out there 29years ago and I said no, I'm
going to do this on my own, I'mgoing to do it my way.
(55:59):
I don't want anybody telling mehow to do this.
Oh, what a mistake that was.
I look back and think man, thatwas the one big blunder I've
made in my coaching career is.
At an early age I thought I wasa rock and I was an island and I
could do it all on my own.
And I have definitely changedthat mind shift, thankfully,
probably through necessity morethan anything else over my life.
(56:22):
But I do like this.
I love this idea of thesequestions and I will commit
today that I will do this everyday Good, and I will report to
you back in six months.
Speaker 3 (56:31):
And life is good and it's been wonderful to talk to
you.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
It's been a pleasure talking to you, my friend.
I know you've got other thingsand other commitments today, but
I just want to take the time toagain.
I said this before we startedtoday You've been a personal and
professional hero of mine foryears.
I want to thank you for comingon the podcast, but more than
anything, I want to thank youfor the impact you've made on me
and on the world around you.
I'm blessed to share this earthwith you right now.
Speaker 3 (56:54):
Well, thank you so much.
You've made my day and I justhope that maybe a few people
listening to this podcasthopefully have a little better
life based on our conversation,I know.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
I have.
Thank you, my friend, have ablessed day today.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Bye have a blessed day today.
Thank you, bye-bye, bye-byeEveryone.
Thank you for tuning in.
Honestly, this was one of myhighlight podcasts.
This is episode number 152, Ibelieve, and I'm so glad to be
able to share Marshall and hiswisdom and his journey and his
(57:30):
beauty with you today.
I'm blessed to have thisinterview to share with all of
you.
I'll talk to you all a weekfrom today.
Same time, same place.
In the meantime, please get outthere and strive to give and be
your best, show love andrespect to others and to
yourself, and please live withpurpose.
I appreciate each and everysingle one of you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.