Living In Our Bonus Years w/Jung Messinger (Bonus Episode)

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hey everyone, my name is Randy Kim from the Bundy Chronicles
podcast. And before I begin, I want to
offer a trigger warning as the topic will revolve around
suicide, mental health, institutional forced
institutional care and anything that's tied to the a topic of

(00:25):
suicide. So I hope that for those that
are listening and you know, taketheir time and, and also know
that it is not an easy topic to take on, but I hope that you
will have the opportunity to be able to hopefully get an idea of

(00:47):
how we address this issue in themonth of suicide awareness month
in September. And I brought in my friend Zhang
Messenger. And Zhang has been a person that
I have known for a number of years, like probably going back
to 10 plus years by this point. And I knew them through the, the

(01:13):
Asian American LGBTQIA spaces, like through eye to eye.
And and that was like during thetime when I was starting to try
to find belonging in the, in thequeer Asian community, which,
you know, prior to that, there was none for me to be involved
in. And I felt like moving into the

(01:35):
city of Chicago after living in Korea for a number of years, I
wanted to make that reconnect. I wanted to make that connection
and and see and find where my belonging is.
And Jung has been one of those friends for me.
And I've been very happy to havethem on because, you know, Jung

(01:55):
and I had talked last week aboutwe were just having a random
conversation. And one of the things that Jung
brought out was like, well, I know that you had gone through
now the one year of what happened to you when I was
hospitalized. And I did not realize, I forgot

(02:19):
that it was suicide awareness month.
And, and I think it got me to really think deeply about what
that journey has looked like forme since then.
But also, I think this is the conversation that we needed to
have. And you know, John has been a
friend of mine who has seen me and witnessed me at a very

(02:40):
difficult time in my life. And I know that we have been
there for each other through some of the more challenging
periods of life. And I will say that in Jung's
background, I want to say that Jung is a master of all trades.
I looked at their bio and I remembered.
I remembered some of it. I didn't remember all of it.
But what I can, you know, share with you about Jung Messenger is

(03:05):
so Jung has been in doing community organizing work.
They're an educator, facilitator, mutual aid
organizer, resource mobilizer, community grief and health
worker, writer, and they've beendoing a lot of work in the
racial, gender, disability, immigration, reproductive, and

(03:27):
healing justice movements for the past two decades.
Due the local, state and national nonprofits,
philanthropy, grassroots community organizations and
collectives. Since 2022, they've been the
owner and principal of Yojong LLC, where they offer
consulting, coaching and grief care.
Dedicated to the cultivation, literacy and growth of people of

(03:50):
the global majority and queer, trans and non, very non binary,
disabled, chronically ill and neurodivergent and migrant and
diaspora communities. There's St.
Medic, movement care worker, avid reader, humble drummer and
devote time to the Rogers Park Free Store, Liberation Library,

(04:11):
and the Unitarian Universalist Prison Ministry of Illinois.
That is quite a mouthful here. And I'm just going to say that
that is the reason why I look toyou as a friend and also why I
look to your work because of allof the many wonderful, necessary

(04:31):
things that you have been doing and what you've been able to
share knowledge about through these experiences.
Young. I know it's been a long
monologue from my end, but thankyou so much for being on my show
and I'm looking forward to having this important
conversation. Thanks for having me, Randy, and
thanks for being really open to this suggestion.

(04:55):
But I had to to have a conversation that would really
center and think about mental health, especially around
suicide and suicidality. I know that we have both had
yeah, we've both had our own experiences with with that with

(05:15):
being survivors of suicide. And I, I thought that it would
be, it would be an, an, an interesting format with you not
just in the role of host, but like with us in conversation.
Yeah, as we like, as we think about this month.
So thanks for thanks for being open to me to me and my

(05:39):
suggestion. Absolutely.
And you know, and I also want tolike state from the beginning
that I'm not a clinical licensedtherapist, but I know for you,
you have done a lot of connectedwork in the, in the social work
and also working in trauma. And I'm also.
I wonder if you can clarify thatup too, So.

(06:00):
Yeah, yeah. And so I think one of the one of
the things I wanted to share too, I'm also not a licensed
therapist, but my my professional background and, and
some of my schooling is in social work.
So I have experience doing counseling and crisis
intervention, trauma work, griefwork, but like I said, I didn't

(06:25):
pursue licensure. I'm not currently working as a
therapist. So I know that you and I both
come to this conversation, but also have just had a lot of like
phone conversations, in person conversations, text
conversations about our experiences from from the
vantage point of people who havehave been through surviving

(06:50):
suicide, not necessarily as professionals.
And so I hope that anyone who's listening is able to connect
with that and knows and knows that although there are, you
know, like special ways that youcan get training and experience

(07:10):
supporting folks, that this information doesn't necessarily
have to be gate, gate kept behind a degree or a
certification. It's information that we can
share with each other in order to care for each other.
Yeah. No, thank you so much for naming
that. And I want to like talk about,

(07:34):
you know, for both of us, how have we or how have you been
holding up about 2025 with only a mere few months left?
I mean, like for myself, I feel like I'm at a loss for words.
I feel that it has gone by very quickly.

(07:54):
But but so much that has kept piling on and on.
And especially with this Trump 2point O administration, which
continues to be incredibly terrifying.
And, and setting the stage for, for more ominous things to
happen. And I don't want this to sound

(08:15):
like a doom and gloom conversation, but I think, you
know, for myself, I think for me, I've been trying to
navigate. I've been burned out by the time
I got to May and then I had to spend the summer recalibrating.
And I think it's been good for me the last few months to step
away and trying to touch grass, which is been more of my thing.

(08:38):
I cancelled Hulu several months ago before.
You've literally been touching grass.
You've been you've been in like every forest preserve of Cook
and DuPage County. Yeah, like, you know, like I'll,
I'll just say this like, why? Like last summer I was watching
the I was binge watching the entire season of the Bear, which

(08:58):
you were. Like.
Horrible mistake or not a smart move and they'll and the bears
do Hulu. So I'm like, you know what?
No, not going to have the same mistake again.
And lo and behold, it worked to my benefit.
And you know, I'm just going to say that yeah, I got ahead of

(09:19):
the game from for a lot of people that just kind of, you
know, was hanging out to the Hulu at Disney World, you know,
but I'm just just saying. But yeah, but but for you like,
how has navigating 2025 been like so far?
You know, it's been, it's been really hard and it's, I would
say both the, the past couple ofyears have been hard for various

(09:45):
reasons. And then my life since 20, the
end of 2019 and beginning of 2020 as well, which I'm sure
like we'll definitely be gettinginto conversation about, about
that. But I, I think for both you and
I, and we've talked about this alot as people who really care

(10:08):
not just about reform, but aboutjustice and equity and
liberation. Like, it's a really hard time to
live in. It's a hard time to be to be a
person who is neurodivergent, tobe a person who's racialized, to
be a person who is is diasporic and wasn't born in the US It's a

(10:37):
hard time to be a person that isnot under the cisgender
umbrella, to be a person who's queer.
Yeah, the government is very opposed to to the to the
existence of me and people like me.

(10:58):
And the people who many have been counting on to be a like
quote, UN quote, opposition government haven't necessarily
been helpful either in pushing back on really fascist and
authoritarian ideologies. And I know like, I have been

(11:22):
organizing in support of disability justice, especially
around COVID safety, but around just disability in general, have
been organizing to oppose the genocide that is currently
happening in Gaza, as well as the occupation of Palestinian

(11:45):
lands in general for several years, but especially over the
last, like, 20 to 23 months. And it's, yeah, it's it.
There are aspects of this work that have been very, very
draining. Very hard to remember that being

(12:11):
alive is supposed to be fun sometimes that like we're
supposed to enjoy this and that,you know, also an aspect of our
collective work is to like make sure that the next generation
gets to survive as well. Like I have, I have young people

(12:32):
and children in my life who are also neurodivergent and gender
variant and gender expansive andracialized and disabled.
And I want to see them become adults and in this, in the world
that we're living in, I know that they will, but I also know

(12:55):
it's going to be really hard. And so I have a lot of empathy
and love for everyone who is trying to survive while they are
also fighting back against all of the different forces that
would rather see us not survive.Yeah.
Like, what do you think has keptyou going in this year when

(13:19):
things feel so detrimental and so hopeless?
Because like, I know that I've had many conversations with you
weekly on the phone and the 1st 20 minutes says what the fuck is
going on? Why?
Why is such and such happening? Why is this so like, why the
fuck is this happening? And that is, that is the

(13:41):
conversation that I come at because it's like I'm reading
this. I know that I would, you know,
see what you have shared on social media and I'll read what
is going on. I don't watch the news anymore,
but I will, you know, definitely, I definitely follow
a lot of my friends who are in the activism movements or
movement work. And it is incredibly

(14:05):
disheartening. And I think that is why I spend
a lot of time touching grass andsometimes just going out to just
travel, not to like, you know, kick back and have a cocktail,
but more like just to kind of get away and just kind of like
ground myself. But what has what has been ways

(14:25):
for you to navigate your survival through this?
I think for me, one of the one of the things that has helped me
together over the past five and a half years, since early 2020
has been connection and relationship with other people.

(14:50):
So I have worked really hard to have community and the, the
particular neighborhood I live in in Chicago for, for those who
are not from Chicago, Chicago can be a very neighborhood
rooted city and a very neighborhood based city.

(15:12):
And I feel really rooted in the neighborhood that I live in
here. And I've done a lot of work to
keep that going. And so I know that I in moments
where I am, I'm not feeling welland like need medicine or, you
know, there were, there were times where I was recovering

(15:33):
from surgery and wasn't able to cook for myself.
And lots of my neighbors like brought me food or people will
like go to the drugstore for me or I'll go get groceries for
someone or like we have ways that we're distributing like
free diapers and household cleaning products and things
like that. So that's, that's one big thing.

(15:56):
Another another thing that has been keeping me going the past
year or so has been a pummel drumming, which is Korean
drumming that comes out of the Korean Agri, cultural and
shamanistic traditions, as well as more recently like Korean and

(16:18):
Korean American organizing spaceand cultural organizing space.
And so I'm part of a POMO group that meets here in Chicago that
is made-up of diasporic Koreans.We're actually like majority
queer and trans and probably maybe like a third of us are

(16:40):
adoptees. And so it's, it's folks from
lots of different aspects of Korean diaspora, but it, for me,
it fulfills and connects me to, to being Korean in like
emotional and spiritual and political ways.
And like really concretely has been very helpful that like, I'm

(17:06):
intentionally like hitting something.
I'm so weak to just like get my energy out.
So that has been really helpful.And then, you know, I think in,
in terms of my life, like since,since my suicide attempt and

(17:28):
like my life since surviving suicide, which happened in like
mid to late 2019, I've called everything since then.
I refer to it as my bonus years.And I know that like this is
time that I have been given. And so I try and, and make the
most of it and try and try and have that mindset, but it has

(17:54):
been really hard like that. I also, there's a lot of things
that I used to enjoy that I don't anymore.
Like it is I like, I I love watching basketball, I love the
NBA and the WNBA. And also like with this, with
the onset of this most recent phase of ethnic cleansing and

(18:17):
genocide in Palestine, specifically in Gaza, but also
in the West Bank, like thinking about corporate sports has and,
and knowing what I know about the connections between sports
leagues in the US and the Israeli state, A lot of which

(18:38):
I've learned from folks like Dave Zirin and the the campaign
that exists now, like athletes first ceasefire.
Like knowing those things it like it makes watching an NBA
game less fun, fun like, you know, on the weekend, like going
out to March against Palestine. But then like coming back and
like watching, watching this piece of entertainment that not

(19:03):
only is like propping up and like supporting the Israeli
state, but also like the US, theUS military.
And so, yeah, that's been a space where I've had to, that's
just one example of how I've hadto like switch my interests,
change my interests and like, try and find enjoyment in things

(19:25):
because so many things are like not fun anymore.
And I like don't, I haven't feltfun because of just the horrific
things that I've seen. So I can't even imagine what
it's like to to experience them at all.

(19:47):
But also like, I know that you have been like going for lots of
walks, going to concerts, like you've been travelling a lot.
Like what are some some of the specific things that have been
keeping you going? Yeah, I think what you just
named are things that keep me going, although like it is
interesting how you bring up theNBA too, because I have started

(20:07):
to reconsider some of the thingsthat I do enjoy is entertainment
and I have spent. Put a bit of money on for I have
expensive taste if y'all didn't know that.
By now, my gosh, you do, you bushy bitch.
And I, and I was talking to you the other day, like, you know, I
saw Coldplay, but now I'm like, you know what, I'm done with

(20:29):
Coldplay. And for those that don't know,
Chris Martin basically had played the whole respectability
politics about Charlie Kirk's stuff.
And like, I don't feel right about this.
And it's like, look, I'm tired of this, too.
Inclusiveness that has to somehow humanize white

(20:49):
supremacists. And Beyoncé and Jay-Z, like the
other day, they were caught on video and like, having dinner
with the Kushner's, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump.
And I was like, you know what? It is incredibly disheartening.

(21:10):
Yes, they are absolute capitalist.
They are practically billionaires by now.
But it also disappoints me because of the music that they
have made their audience that actually support their work.
And to see this happen, knowing that it's 2025, knowing what the
Trump administration has done, knowing what Trump has said

(21:32):
about Beyoncé is just like, that's just one example.
So I felt like I had to dial back the celebrity culture of
standing in some ways. And I feel like that is
something that I have to really think about for next year or
when I look into a concert or what artist can I support,

(21:53):
especially from the indie scene that I feel like my investment
will go far for like smaller artists versus like the
Beyoncé's or the Swift of the world where they are, they don't
need people like us to help them.
So I think that's something I'vebeen dialing back a lot on.

(22:16):
I've system of a down. That's another one that really
disappointed me because Serge isthe only guy that I'm still
trying to cross my finger. Please do not fall off the edge,
Darren. Darren Malakian basically got
into a fight with some of his fans on Instagram and he
basically came out and says I'm the far middle.
And I'm just like, you know, fuck you guys.

(22:39):
I have seen a bunch of these groups artists this summer and
I'm like, you know, there's a lot of things I could have done
with that money by now. But you know, it's like I had a
great time then. But it's also like, you know
what I got? I have to really seriously think
about my choice of entertainmentand how this idea of separating

(23:00):
the art from the artist, it's like it's not benefiting us.
It's actually continuing to create harm.
And they're not going to be there to protect us when when
that time comes. And so that is something I have
had to really think long and hard about this summer.

(23:22):
I think that for me, yeah, goingto nature trails, I download the
arch trails app and I am in lovewith it like I, I can find out
different trails or what the conditions are, how many miles
it is and is it scenic What what's around there?
I, I love those moments and alsoalso like being very connected

(23:47):
to community, especially in the digital sense.
Like, yes, there's a lot to be said about social media and how
it's been driven in a very toxicrelationship with, you know,
with the powers that be that really, you know, control the

(24:08):
narratives of what's going on right now.
But I also feel that there's so much friendships that have been
formed the last couple years since COVID and, and I feel like
I've been tapping more into that.
And when I was doing the podcast, I felt like I was
getting more of a community. I was getting more of a sense of
folks from places like in Vancouver, Canada to Long Beach,

(24:33):
CA to Boston or to like Minnesota or to Vietnam or
Cambodia. I think that that has really
been a saving grace for me in some ways.
I think it has really helped to understand the world around me.

(24:56):
And when I stopped out of the podcast like 2 years ago, I was
really burned out. I was getting kind of annoyed
when I was working on the last season.
I was like, you know what? I feel like I just needed a
couple more episodes to go. I'm done.
And I think by that point, I thought that people stopped

(25:19):
listening to podcast that that was my thought because I
remembered my ratings, my streaming numbers went down in
my last season, even though I actually had a very strong guest
lineup. And you know, and I was thinking
like this was still my best work, even though I was mentally
checked out. But I also felt that now with
what's going on politically, howpodcast have and for

(25:47):
unfortunately have also been theinstrument for a lot of right
wing activists and talking headsto get in the ears of Gen.
Z voters, particularly among themale population.
And I think that was something that was very alarming to me
from last election. And I felt, OK, I'm going to

(26:07):
have to find a way to help be one of those folks that
intercepts the narratives that they're trying to spew out.
And, and unfortunately, it has become unchecked from blogs to
podcasts to social media to different kinds of content that

(26:27):
we consume. And, and we need more of us
intercepting these narratives because people's lives are at
stake. And that's what we've seen in
Gaza. Like if like, like the Cambodian
genocide that my dad's side of the family went through, none,
like no one knew what was happening in those four years.

(26:48):
Cambodia was in the dark hole and that was in the mid 70s.
This is a very, very different time.
The this genocide in Gaza is themost live stream genocide event
that has happened in our life, that is happening in our
lifetime. And yet as frustrating and as

(27:08):
infuriating as it is to see the inactions and the complicit, see
complicity of of the US government and the and, and the
capitalistic vultures and political leaders that are doing

(27:29):
this. It is also very important to see
how there's so many voices that have really pushed back and
starting to slowly change the narrative the past two years is,
has it been frustrating for those that have been calling out
from the rooftop? Yeah, absolutely.
But I do think that there's power in in our voices and, and

(27:55):
what that could really mean. And I think that's part of like
as I was trying to recover from what was a very difficult year,
losing my brother earlier this year.
And then before that, having to kind of like recalibrate my
entire thought process, which nearly killed me.
And I felt like I had to step away in order for me to be in a

(28:18):
position where the things that actually made me very scared and
that nearly destroyed my mental health, I felt like it was part
of like, I want to come back to be like, well, I feel like I
need to talk about this. I feel like I need to talk about

(28:41):
the things that have contributedto that, which is contributing
to a lot of folks that are that have been in the front line for
this. So yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I like something that
you are really speaking to, I think is the idea that like most
people are are looking for connection and belonging and

(29:06):
validation. And like people are looking for
that in a lot of places and trying to find it where they can
get it. And when when people feel like
they aren't getting those those feelings of connection or
belonging or validation like from the larger society or when

(29:32):
the larger society is is set up to, to like intentionally not
help people feel like they belong or feel connected to
others. That is when folks are looking
to to things like like, you know, fringe voices or are

(29:57):
trying to look to entertainment or are trying to sometimes look
to, to yeah, like government. Yeah, to the government for, for
that belonging and connection. So I feel like that is also like
that speaks to the importance ofbeing able to create media and

(30:20):
create community and create entertainment and create culture
that like speaks to us and brings us together and reminds
us that we are important. And can also like shut out and
drown out and interrupt the fringe voices, especially like

(30:41):
right right wing conservative fringe voices who are trying to
like peddle their really violenttheories as like being main,
both mainstream, but also like, as being like the way that you
will like achieve your best self.

(31:02):
And, and the way that you, you know, they, a lot of, a lot of
especially the male podcast hosts who are trying to like put
forth these like very antiquatedand very like misogynist and
sexist and ableist and homophobic transphobic ideas of

(31:25):
like what it means to be a person, like in a heterosexual,
monogamous nuclear family and what it means to like, carry
out, carry through like very strict gender roles.
Like it's really important to drown out those voices.

(31:46):
It's really important to say that like actually like that is
that is that is not what's goingto actually like bring us closer
to to being our best selves. And also like that you are not a
substitute for like us being able to build community for us

(32:07):
being able to like have robust like public systems and
infrastructure that are working for us and that like reflect us.
And that it is like the best world is not actually one where
like all of these, all of these fringe voices are in charge,

(32:30):
seemingly telling people that like by listening to them, that
like you are, you are like fighting back against the system
when really like they are just stepping in as like the they are
just stepping in. Yeah.
It's like the the new like leader that you should be
leading while while working really hard to like take away

(32:53):
people's autonomy and self determination.
Yeah, And also one thing to add to that, and thank you for
bringing this up, is that that alot of these male podcasters,
the Joe Rogans, the Andrew Tatesof the world, the late Andrew
Kirk, Charlie Kirk, I don't meanhe's not worth remembering or
getting his name by this, but that way.

(33:16):
But, but like, what I do see is that that there's this narrative
that young men don't belong anywhere right now because women
or, you know, LGBTQ people are, you know, making men less
important in society. And that's a narrative I've been

(33:38):
hearing quite a bit of and, and,and it really showed up in a
very toxic way. Like I remembered going to some
of the universities doing talks on podcast and specifically in
the Asian American youths. And what I've noticed is that I

(33:59):
would always ask, who do you listen to?
And there's always could be thatone or two person that's going
to bring up Joe Rogan's name. And I cringe pretty obviously.
And I'm just like, OK, all right, this is, but it also
tells me this is the pulse that I'm getting.
And why has podcasting been suchan, a very powerful instrument?

(34:24):
And I think you allude to this thing, this, this what has COVID
done? And also in this digital world,
in this place where confining community is a challenge and,
and when you're dealing with a lot of a lot of like mental
health issues that go unchecked,it can be very, I mean, the, I

(34:46):
mean, the choices that people domake and really have an effect
and can have a lifelong effect. And that's something that I do
worry about. It's something that kind of like
led me to, you know, come back to it because there has to be
more voices, but there also has to be voices from people
actually doing the work because,because it's very easy to give

(35:10):
into despair. And part of I guess having my
quote UN quote sanity or or at least a relief is knowing the
people that are still fighting with us or they're still
fighting for us. And what the hell, what has that
look like? How can we help support that?

(35:31):
You know, because I think that'svery important to to bring on
when I look at the work that you're doing it, I feel very
inspired, I mean, to be a streetmedic to give us a hands on look
about what is happening in the communities.
What are community members doingfor each other that's not going
to be captured in traditional media outlets?
Like like how do we bring these narratives to life?

(35:52):
Because that is how you feel themovements and and inform people
of what's going on. Well, I mean, it's interesting
that you bring up like my, my work this as a street medic or
my work like doing, doing care work, like within community,
because it was, it was actually like my experience navigating my

(36:17):
mental health and my experience like surviving suicide.
That like led me down a different path and a different
pathway of, of being an organizer in my community.
Like I, I, I've done so many different types of organizing.
And I don't say that in like a, a bragging way, but just to like

(36:40):
provide some context and have seen like really, really small
local, like hyper, hyper local organizations all the way up to
like national philanthropic networks.
And, you know, I think one of the things that a lot of our
movement spaces have in common, unless we are like, like really,

(37:05):
really, really intentionally interrupting, it is like the
this ape this, this overlap of like capitalism and ableism,
right? Like there's a constant emphasis
on productivity. There's a constant emphasis like
on output. And like, even in the words that
you were just using, like there's a constant emphasis on

(37:26):
just like fighting and like coming from a place of fight in
the opposition all the time, right?
And like you and I have talked about this so much, especially
about like how little room therehas been for grief and mourning.
Like I know that like that's something, right?
That like we had talked about like after your brother's death

(37:48):
and the fact that because because of the medical leave
that you had to take last summer, like that when your
brother passed, like you just didn't have enough medical
leave, like you didn't have enough medical leave.
And like, what does that say to us as workers, like as employees
about how valued we are? But I do think that one of the,

(38:13):
one of the opportunities that wehave in movement spaces is, is,
is an opportunity to better understand each other as people
and better, better care for eachother's physical and mental
needs, regardless of the strategies or tactics that we
are using and are organizing in our, in our fights, in our

(38:36):
activism, in our action. And for me, like, that's why I
shifted from being a frontline organizer and, and a frontline
direct action or to doing a lot more St. medic work, crisis
intervention work, grief work. Because for me, like in indirect

(39:01):
action, it's really important that everybody like understands
the strategy, like the why we are doing something as well as
the tactics like the what of what we are doing.
And there were so many times where I just like didn't agree,
right? Like one of the one of the

(39:21):
schisms that shows up in movement spaces, not just in
Chicago, but all over the place is folks who want to, who want
to see an, an abolition of the prison industrial complex, the
military industrial complex and systems of policing.
Like I'm, I'm one of those people who are like up against

(39:44):
folks who believe that reform can come within and that like,
we just have to like do a littlebit more fixing of the system,
but that ultimately, like the system will be able to like fix
itself. They're like, if we give a
little bit more money or, or training or like community input
to like our Police Department orlike our prisons, that they will

(40:08):
be able to be reformed until like Heinzler gentler
institutions when that's not thecase.
And so I found myself really frustrated with both the the
labor that was being asked of meand other organizers.
When we didn't necessarily have alignment on the strategies and

(40:31):
tactics and even the values thatwe were like supposedly like
asked to agree on. But for me, and this is likely
part of, you know, my neurodivergence, like when I am
when I'm a medic, like I, I wantto, I am in a role where I, I am

(40:51):
protecting folks from state violence.
So at a protest, at an action like in the world, because I
also I will do like community jail support, which is, which
welcomes folks who are criminalized just for existing

(41:12):
rather than from doing politicalwork or protest work, welcoming
them back into the community. But so I, I am very much like
looking at people as like whole people like regardless of what
strategies you're using, what tactics you're using, the reason
why you are encountering state violence, knowing that like the

(41:33):
state, I am in opposition to state violence.
And so that's why I shifted intothat, into that street medic
role. And for me, it is helped connect
me more to movements and movement work, but also helped
me like better take care of myself within, within those

(41:56):
spaces and create more room for,to be able to educate folks
through my social work background and like my mental
health support background and through like my, my public
health background and through, through the grief work that I've

(42:16):
done and through the work I've done around disability justice.
Yeah, I think that it is, it's, it's been so important for me
and has, has really helped me feel less isolated.
Like being in a role where I'm actually like just connecting
folks to care, connecting folks to resources, connecting folks

(42:39):
to safety and helping them make connection and feel less
isolated. So that's been really important
to me. I know like, you also, like,
used to be very like more heavily involved in community
work than you are now. And I actually have been like,

(43:01):
as a friend, have been really proud of you for the ways that
you have been able to like, havestronger boundaries and step
back and like, take better care of yourself.
But yeah, I'm curious like from your experience, like when you
were in movement spaces that were that felt really, really

(43:24):
deeply isolating and like not supportive of mental health.
What do you feel like was missing?
What do you, how do you feel like that contributed to like
what you had been, what you weregoing through and what you
experienced? Yeah, I think what I realized is
like how you're absolutely terrified.
I am of crowds, especially like,which is kind of weird to me

(43:47):
because I'm a big concert goer and I had lived in the city of
Chicago. I have lived in Busan, Korea,
which is very condensed. And so I felt like my existence
has been around a lot of crowds and more times than not.
And I know that people have asked me to join in protests,

(44:10):
but I think or marches and I tend to back away from it, not
because I didn't believe in it, not because I, you know, didn't
want to take part of it because I didn't want to get in trouble.
I think the, it was more of my fear of seeing people that I
care about get hurt. It's it's very terrifying.

(44:32):
And and I get a lot of anxiety about thinking worst case
scenarios. You know, I come from a family
that has really seen tragedies. And one of the things I used to
promise my parents is that I will never put myself in danger,
in harm's way, because I know that if they heard me going to a

(44:54):
protest, it sends a red flag it it's very alarming to them
because they don't want to see me gone.
And also, I bet like, their context for protest and like,
government opposition is like, not from the US like it's from
Vietnam, it's from Cambodia. And that is probably like, yeah,

(45:17):
that probably informs like theirfear as well.
Absolutely. And and I think I think that has
definitely created some strongerboundaries in some ways, but
also that I think Michelle Kim, I've had this conversation with
her, like there's no one right way to protest.
There's no one universal way to protest.

(45:38):
There's different multitudes of ways.
How can I be supportive behind the scenes?
How can I share information? How can I share resources?
How can I be a space for organizers, you know, to have
private conversations where I can check in and say, hey, you
know, do you want to hang out for ice cream or Because I know

(46:00):
that survival is very challenging and people's lives
when you are constantly being surveillanced and being under
under attack, like I think it's always a reminder.
Like, how can I at least pull you away for a moment so you can

(46:21):
actually unpack and, and be ableto rejuvenate from that?
I, I think about other ways thatI can be a supportive friend.
I think about, you know, think about the podcast and the
storytelling work that I've donein the past and, and try and get
people's to share their stories and also the blueprint of what

(46:42):
they have done. Because this is the kind of
things that you don't learn in history classes.
You don't learn the blueprints of revolution.
That is for sure. Yeah.
One of the things I was going tosay is that like you're really
good and you're really good at like checking in with people,

(47:04):
like you're really good at like staying in touch with people and
just like letting people know that you're thinking of them and
letting people know that they'reimportant to you.
Like that's something that I that I like, really admire about
you. Like one thing and one thing I
really appreciate about our friendship.
Like that's a real, that's a strength that you have and

(47:27):
something that I have, like, learned from you in, like, how
to do better. Yeah.
I appreciate that because I knowyou have been very much been
very reciprocal and sometimes even more so.
And like I think about in ways that I can try to deepen my
compassion. What how can it look?

(47:50):
What can it look like, you know,and do I always get a right?
No, I mean, I know that I can pissed off quite a bit of
people, and I have, but I also know that I myself have to be
humble enough and I know I talk about like I don't believe in
the idea of humility at. The end.

(48:10):
Be humble. OK, OK, well, there's parts of
me that still exist in humility,but I think that there's, but
there's certain things where I'mlike, you know what, I'm gonna
have to, I'm going to have to listen now.
I'm going to have like sit back and really listen.
Because I think that is very important for me to understand

(48:31):
the discomfort or the distrust that people may have if I get
out of line. And I think that's something I
try to be very aware of. I think you talk about bonus
years, and I know that I'm in bonus year #1 and I have a lot
of boundaries. I'm starting to understand
social situations that do not work for me.
Like I feel much confident and safe talking to people

(48:55):
one-on-one or one on two. But if there's like a group of
10 people at a dinner table and you know, and it's all over the
place, I get over stimulated andI get really overwhelmed and I
have to think about exiting in the next hour and find out how
I'm going to exit gracefully. Have I always succeeded in doing

(49:16):
that? Not always.
I definitely ruffled some fetters and I've had to think
about what being present means to me and how and how my
presence effects people depending on the kind of energy
that I bring in. So I'm I'm being more thoughtful

(49:38):
about that. I like one example, there was a
a Chicago Asian group and they were doing a meet up for brunch
in Chinatown and I live like 40 minutes away with traffic from
my home to Chinatown. And when I arrived in Chinatown
there was a whole ass festival St. festival.

(50:01):
I couldn't find parking anywhere.
Traffic was wild. I was becoming late and
punctuality. I hate being late.
You really hate being late. I hate being late because it's
like it gives me a lot of anxiety.
I don't like to feel like I'm ina rush or in the middle of
something. It feels like I have to catch up
to that and it gives me a lot ofanxiety.

(50:22):
So as I was circling around, I noticed that my own blood
pressure was spiking. Like my Apple Watch was giving
me this heart rate is increasing.
And I'm like, hey. Apple Watch was like sit the
fuck down. And I was like, yeah.
And I was like, as I was circling around, you know what,
no, I cannot. No, I, I am going to drive back.
I'm going to drive back. I'm going to go find an ace

(50:45):
Sushi. And all you can eat is sushi
instead for myself because I can't do this.
And I actually messaged the group.
I said, look, I'm sorry, I can'tmake it.
I'm in a city. The last thing I want to do is
come in very annoyed, very upset, and bring bad energy.

(51:05):
I don't want to bring that, but I also don't want to do it to
myself. I don't want to force myself or
will myself into doing things that will not benefit anyone
around me. And so I I think about that a
lot. I think about what my presence
can mean and that I want to be in a place where I feel I could
be better served. And so that is 1 big thing that

(51:28):
I have thought about speaking upat work.
Sometimes I'm still guilty of having people pleasing
tendencies. Like I really do want the
approval from my bosses. But I think it's funny enough
because I am going to talk with a podcast about toxic workplace
environments. And, and I feel like I've become

(51:50):
more outspoken, you know, for better, for worse.
And I feel that now that I'm in my 40s, I have seen myself
having to unlearn, you know, toxic practices that were, that
were not beneficial to me, you know, thinking about
productivity, thinking about, you know, having to work so hard

(52:12):
to get notice or to get like, like a one minute
acknowledgement. Like, I don't care for that.
Like I realized how detrimental that was.
And, and something that I was thinking about recently was I
used to get a lot of perfect attendance awards back in grade

(52:32):
school, junior high, middle and high school.
And I did not realize what that conditioned me as a working
adult that, that I always had toshow up, you know, whether I was
sick or not and whether I was mentally there or not.

(52:52):
And I realized how harmful that was to me and how I remember I
didn't think about how harmful these kinds of things have led
me to this idea of of productivity equaling rewards.
And that is not the case. I have seen my mom and dad who
have been at their jobs for decades.
My mom having a stroke at work while she was working 60 plus

(53:17):
hours in her mid 50s when she didn't really need to by this
point. My dad, you know, lost his job
suddenly after being a metal welder for like 25 years.
And metal welding is a very physically demanding job and we
would no air conditioning and noheating too.
So I think about how that intergenerational trauma and

(53:41):
also what I was conditioned to do, the US public education
system have forced me to bring this will this smarter version
of myself than thinking like, OK, I'm going to will myself to
do this work. I'm going to do it at all cost.
And then last it happened and I didn't realize I was doing it
again. Like I remembered I was working
on a grant deadline. And so in the summer, I was

(54:06):
terrified. I this was, this is, this is
what I get for watching the Bear, the last season of the
Bear at that time, because that was so intense, because I was
having this frantic nightmare. Like, Oh my gosh, I didn't get
this data. I didn't think about this
question, you know, and it's duelike in two days.
And I'm like, running around andabsolutely having panic attacks

(54:28):
over it because I was afraid that if I don't get this right,
there's going to be people that are going to lose their jobs,
including myself. And so that like, this kind of
behavior, this kind of mentalityreally did me a lot of harm.
And it drove me to the ground, for a lack of a better word.

(54:51):
And I think the things that I was taught, I'm still having to
unlearn what it means. You know, I've been reading
Tricia Hersey from the map ministry.
I think about people who are prioritizing rest in their work,
not because we're trying to score away from responsibility,
but we're trying to understand our capacity better.

(55:12):
And how do we get transparent without feeling the shame of
asking for? It so.
Yeah, I mean, from what you justshared, like I am, I hear so
clearly. And like I also remember from
like last August, like just the the feeling of the feelings of

(55:35):
fear and frustration and overwhelm and desperation just
like all like colliding into one.
Like we had been talking about that like before your suicide
attempt, but then we talked about that a time afterwards
because it was a, a big part of like what led me to what led to

(56:03):
like my leading up to my suicideattempt as well was like those
really intense feelings of, of overwhelm and like not knowing
where the turn, like not feelinglike I had no solution and that
like suicide was my only solution.
And that it wasn't necessarily about like an individual kind of

(56:28):
like crisis intervention moment.It was lots of different like
overlapping cultural, societal, relational, like environmental
pieces that intersected with like that the like individual
feelings of like overwhelm and fear that I had in that moment,

(56:50):
right? Like, it wasn't it, it wasn't
necessarily something that wouldhave been able to be solved by,
by a, a hotline, by like callinga hotline and like speaking to a
stranger like in, in that moment, which I don't discredit
those resources. I think that they're really
important. I have been a helpline volunteer

(57:13):
in the past for like an LGBTQ specific hotline that folks
could call where we would do crisis intervention with folks
and also just like general social support.
But I also know that like there was so much more that I needed.
There was so much more that thatyou needed in those moments.

(57:37):
Yeah. And so those are things that I
think about as well. Yeah.
I'm curious because like I, I know like I had come to you
with, with this idea of like, let's have a conversation about
what about like suicide prevention, Like this idea that
is like really heavily leaned upon in in this month is like an

(58:01):
awareness month and how and alsofrom our own experiences, like
really knowing that like so manyof the solutions that are put
forward by like mainstream, likegovernment and nonprofit
organizations, like often aren'tholistic enough.

(58:24):
So I'm curious to hear from you like, you know, what is, what is
suicide prevention even mean to you?
Like what do you think it could look like?
I think my understanding, or at least what I'm seeing with
suicide prevention is when I think of 988, there is though a
lot of uncertainty of who I'm talking to and what my

(58:50):
conversation could lead to. You know what, what that means.
And I, and I think to clarify more about that is like 988 is a
very, is very different in all regions around the United
States. Some use police presence and
police intervention and some uselike mental health mobiles, I

(59:12):
believe. So there's very different forms.
So I think that there's always this uncertainty of when you
tell your story, what does that person do with that story?
Whether it's a care aware, whether it's a care worker,
whether it is law enforcement, medical therapist to friend or

(59:35):
family church, like what happenswhen you tell your feelings,
when you are ready to get rid ofyourself?
And, and what does that person do?
And, and I think, I think that's, I think that's something

(59:57):
I sit with because because sometimes when I feel very
dejected or very sad, I would want to talk to someone.
I may contemplate it, but that doesn't mean that I will go
through with it. So I always.
Fear of what the response would look like, you know, And when I

(01:00:20):
went to my attempt last summer, you know, and I don't want to
get too candid, but I will say that I had, you know, sent a
group text to my closest friendsto a couple of my greatest
friends randomly. And I was, and I was part of
that, yeah. You were one of them.
And then I sent a separate text to my brother Tony.

(01:00:42):
Now, my brother had absolutely no idea what was going on.
He had no idea what I was dealing with, and neither does
my family at the time, because Iwas afraid of how that was going
to be seen as. And even though I'm in my 40s, I
was still feeling this need to control my narrative with them.

(01:01:06):
And, and if I were to say like, I want to do this or I feel like
killing myself, what is that going to look like?
You know, how is that going to affect my relationship with
them? How is that going to affect what
I would do next time? So I think suicide prevention,

(01:01:28):
there's a lot that goes into it.I also think of the, the forest
institution of the involuntary hospitalization that happens.
I was through that. I want to say how that can be
very, how that can be very interesting, how it's tied to

(01:01:49):
capitalism and how this idea like suicide prevention, I know
this is very twisted for some folks, but like how in some ways
it's like, OK, let's treat this person.
Let's try to get them in for a week and get them prepared
because you know, the way society is, we're a very

(01:02:11):
productivity based culture. Like it's due capitalism.
Like how can we prevent losing people when we need them in the
workforce? And I think about that part too.
I know it's something I haven't really set enough time with, but
it's in the back of my mind. It's like, is suicide prevention

(01:02:35):
done as a way to prevent people from ending their lives because
it would disrupt the money making scheme of of capitalism.
I mean, in I think that that is,I think that that is not as
controversial and as an idea as like you are framing it in this

(01:02:57):
moment. But I'm curious, have you heard
the term sanism before? I have, but not in the specific
context. Yeah.
So like sanism is this sadism isused to describe like prejudice
or discrimination or punishment that's like based on like

(01:03:23):
people's actual mental health ortheir neurodivergence or
cognitive disabilities or like our perception of people's like
mental health or neurodivergenceor cognitive disability.
So there is, there's like such an emphasis on, on, on sanity

(01:03:45):
and on normalcy and on the appearance of sanity and
normalcy. Like that's what sanism
describes. It's a term that I have learned
from disability justice and mad liberation movements.
And I am probably not doing justice to like the really
expansive meaning and definitionof, of sanism and, and it's

(01:04:09):
experience. But there's very simply like
there is just such pressure within culture and society, and
especially workplace culture andsociety to like speak and engage
and act or sit or like move in in certain ways, right?
And so like, in, in some senses,like in its quote, UN quote,

(01:04:34):
like least harmful ways, like what that could look like in the
office is that like people don'treally talk about their
problems. They're like, you come back from
the weekend and like people ask like, hey, how are you doing?
And you're like, yeah, I'm, I'm OK.
Or like people aren't really speaking up about like.
Doing the HR, doing the HR, 15 minute yoga, yeah.

(01:04:58):
The workplace, yeah. Or like people aren't like there
isn't, there isn't space, you know, like after your brother
died, like you only could take off.
Like what was it like 5 business, 3 business frames,
which is it's such bullshit, right?
And then like all the way like in its most harmful ways, like

(01:05:18):
Synism looks like, oh, if you are doing something that is like
viewed as scary or harmful to people, especially like based on
the ways that people are are racialized.
And this is how a lot of police murder has happened that, you
know, there's this statistic that like 50% of all police

(01:05:41):
murders, 40 to 50% of all policemurders and involve people who
are disabled in some way. But you know, there have been
instances in in black communities, especially of folks
who are autistic, of folks who are deaf, of folks who are are

(01:06:04):
not performing normalcy in the way that society says they're
supposed to. And then that leads to
criminalization, that leads to murder.
And we've seen that like in thathappens also like in Asian,
Asian American communities as well, like our our comrade Rohan

(01:06:24):
Zuli, who is like a writer and an organizer.
Like they have, they recently wrote a piece about the murder
of Asian Americans and how that is connected to mental health.
And like, I think about those cases in connection to resources
that exist now like 988 as well,because 988 is in many ways like

(01:06:52):
it is, it is a reform, right? Like it is trying to take our
systems that exist and say like,we're going to fix them just a
little because we know that theycan work better when maybe like
being able to like call people and then like have someone come
and intervene is actually like, not a system that's like working

(01:07:12):
for anybody. And like we, there's a need to
rethink it. But one of the things that I
think about with with a resourcelike 988 is that, you know, I
will see hosts on Instagram thatare like, don't call 988, It's
dangerous versus like, you know,that I will see that type of
post versus like other posts that are like, Oh yeah, there's

(01:07:35):
988. Like we're never, we're not
going to have like we don't needto defund, quote UN quote,
defund the police. Like 988 exists.
And so we don't even have to like talk about abolition
anymore, like right. And actually, I feel like the
the solution exists somewhere inthe middle and that most of the
people who are calling 988, especially when it's related to

(01:07:58):
a family member, are related to themselves or like looking for
those pieces that are really keyactually to like preventing
preventing suicide and suicide LD that connection, that
belonging, that validation. Like they're, they're not
necessarily calling because theywant, they want their family

(01:08:20):
member to be harmed or they wantthemselves to be harmed.
But still, because 988 is the system that was like created by
the government, it's still like enacts the harms of that
government. And so I won't get into like a
really long explanation of like how government outsourcing works

(01:08:42):
in the nonprofit world. But like in in general for folks
who are aware, like a system like 988 will be created like
through legislation. And then instead of the
government running itself, they will say, like, we're going to
take proposals from like from from nonprofit organizations
that will like run it, run it for us, and then we'll give you

(01:09:04):
the money to do it. And so that variation that you
were talking about with 988 services is because of that,
that like some of the nonprofitswho are applying for and getting
these contracts. So like because of where I live
in Chicago, like if I were to call 988, my neighborhood is
served by a nonprofit that previously and may still like

(01:09:29):
has a like abolitionist or like non police intervention approach
to mental health crisis. So that means that like if I
call 98988 and I'm talking to those people like they're not
going to necessarily automatically send the police,
but somebody else who lives evenlike half a mile from me is like
in a different service area. So they're getting a different

(01:09:52):
nonprofit that is like picking up that call for them and, and
that, and it, that nonprofit like may not have that same,
that same viewpoint. And so it's, it's less about
this like black and white answerthat's like binary answer of
like, don't call 988 because it's, it's like a reformist

(01:10:15):
measure. And like 0988 exists and we'll
solve all of our problems to like, it's actually about #1
like knowing about, like knowingwho the 988 providers are, like
being able to have like honest conversations about mental
health and suicidality in general.
And like training service providers really well to do

(01:10:37):
that. But then also like creating lots
of community resources and community networks and community
connection within, within our spaces, especially our
geographic spaces, which like, Ican, I can say this because I
live in a city like Chicago. I live in like a high density

(01:10:59):
area and like, know my most immediate neighbors, like the
people that I like would share ahallway with, as well as a lot
of people who like live on my street and in my neighborhood
and feel safe doing that in general because of where I live.
I know that there are people wholike live next to people who
actually like don't even want them to like be alive.

(01:11:20):
And so like I understand that like there's a difference in in
that. And so this isn't necessarily to
say like everybody needs to likehave that connection with their
neighbors, but I do think that being able to have tools like
like care webs, like that I learned about in the book Care
work or mad mapping that I've learned about from the, the

(01:11:46):
organization Fire Week collective or pod mapping that
I've learned about from me and Mingus and the Bay Area
Transformative Justice Collective.
Like having those be part of ourfriend groups, our our community
groups, which like community canbe different than friends.

(01:12:06):
I feel like it should be in manyways.
And then also like our movement groups, like those being able to
like weave conversations about these resources and these tools
and how they use them to care for each other.
Well, actually, it makes our connections stronger.
It makes our movement work stronger and actually can do a

(01:12:28):
better, can maybe do a better job of suicide awareness and
prevention than than just like funding lots of hotlines but not
necessarily changing the like material and social conditions
that people are living with. Yeah.
And I think like there's also a fear of what's going to happen
to me once I call 988, besides the local police intervention

(01:12:51):
that comes into play, but also institutional care and voluntary
hospitalization as we all know it.
I, I have a lot to say about that in particular because it's
a very challenging area. Like I'm very conflicted about

(01:13:12):
what that looks like. And I will say that I had to
spend a good week being there. I was pretty much, I was pretty
much kept away, you know, from the world, so to speak, you
know, like I did not have my cell phone for a week.

(01:13:32):
Just imagine me being the very on person that I am.
And I think like once people notice that my Instagram stories
went blank for 24 hours, that was a sign that something
happened. And it felt like I had to
reimagine this new reality I wasliving in temporarily.

(01:13:57):
And it was a very, it was a tonsof very stressful experience,
especially that first day. Like, you know, you're
wondering, how the hell did I get here?
How did I decline, fall apart sofast?
And, and then losing the autonomy was very crushing at

(01:14:19):
that time because I have always been a, I've always been used to
being in the control. Like I couldn't go anywhere
without permission. I wasn't confined to a very
small space and I only talked tolike a handful of people from a,
from the hospital phone. And so it was very limited.

(01:14:43):
And plus, it was hard for me to sleep on this crappy cot that I
was in and I was in the room that had no clocks.
The wall was bare. And I'm like thinking to myself,
how is this going to help me? You know, how is some of the
activities going to help me? Because because I'm like, like,

(01:15:08):
like what is care supposed to look like when it feels like a
prison in some level? And I don't like, and I don't
want to say, and I don't want tosay this to, you know, compare
my experience to an actual prison.
But it has this confinement and it has this level of of like, of

(01:15:30):
like not having autonomy, but also like what you're surrounded
with. Well, I think it's a fair
comparison actually. Like, and I know that there are
there's organizations like like Project, there's a group called
Project Let's and then the FieryCollective that I already

(01:15:51):
mentioned. Like these are groups that do
peer mental health work and peercollective care work,
peer-to-peer collective care work through an abolitionist
lens. And like that their abolitionist
lens, like includes the abolition of, of like
involuntary psychiatric care because of the ways that it

(01:16:16):
mirrors that, like that aspect of the medical industrial
complex, like mirrors the prisonindustrial complex.
And like, you know, says that like, you don't actually know
what's best for you. And that like, you need to have
your bodily autonomy taken away and you need to have your, your
ability to make your own decisions taken away.

(01:16:37):
Like you don't get to choose what you eat or what you wear or
how you spend your time or whereyou sleep or all of those
things. And so I think it's actually, I
think it's, it's OK to make thatcomparison.
And others have made it like, especially in the context of
abolition. But one of the things I was

(01:16:58):
going to ask you because I remember, you know, like I
remember that week, we like, we spent that.
We spent a lot of time during like, when right as you were
hospitalized. But then also, like, we spent,
yeah, we spent a lot of time right when you were
hospitalized, like in physical space together.
And then like a bunch of time, like while you were in the

(01:17:22):
psychiatric unit, like talking on the phone.
And I'm curious, like, I know that you were hesitant to like,
move from being in the, like, the General Medical part of the
hospital to the psychiatric unitof the hospital.
Like, you were really hesitant to do that.

(01:17:43):
And you did it anyways. But I do know that like you were
really nervous about it. What were some of the things
that like that you were yeah, that you were nervous about or
that you were worried about and that you like you might want
people to know in terms of like their own safety or like in

(01:18:06):
terms of if there are people that are that would be
considering like having somebodyelse be involuntarily
hospitalized? I will say that one of the
things that I did get a good take away from the
hospitalization was I had a really good, there was a really
good care team at the hospital that I felt like in a ways

(01:18:27):
humanized me. And and it felt like I was
actually being taken care of forthe first time because I think
for a long time I felt like I did not have anyone not to say
that people did not care about me.
That's not true. I felt like it was hard for me

(01:18:47):
to allow anyone to take care of me in a sense.
And I felt like once I was in the hospital, hospital, I
realized what that actually looked like for me.
So I think that was a big plus for me in some ways.
And I think that was something Ithought about, but it was also
kind of sad that this is this was what I was missing.
Yes, I was very nervous. I was very uncertain what was

(01:19:11):
going to happen. I was thinking about what is my
workplace going to say about this?
What are my family members goingto say to my parents, especially
my mom. Like I was thinking about
everyone else outside of my world because now this happens
and this has blown up and I'm trying to mentally do damage

(01:19:34):
control on APR level because I'mlike, I don't want people to
think I'm broken. I don't want people to think I'm
a hopeless 'cause, you know, like I think there was a part of
me that was really trying to hold that narrative still.
I'll say that. I'll say that to enter in.

(01:19:55):
It's like, yeah, it is. Yeah.
It is frightening because you don't know what your day-to-day
is going to look like. You don't know what what kind of
treatment you will receive. And you're just trying to figure
out what your day is going to look like all of a sudden.

(01:20:17):
And knowing that I had to shift a lot of things, I had to also
think about well. I made an unsuccessful attempt
and now what, you know, it feelslike, it feels like everything
that led up to it. Like I felt like that was a
whole. Now there's like a, there's like

(01:20:39):
a new line now there's like a whole new era that I just
created, you know, for myself. And I was gonna end that
particular era permanently. But now my.
Gosh, you could go on your own Eras Tour, yes.
Eras Tour, you know, Yes. Surviving Suicide.
The Eras Tour. Yeah.
I mean, it'll be like different areas of my life, you know, like

(01:21:02):
different chapters, you know, different.
Yeah. It'll be a very interesting
service, I must say. But I think that it's also like,
now what, you know, what is going to happen to me?
How is my relationship going to be affected and, and what does

(01:21:22):
the treatment look like? What are people going to listen
to me? Are people going to take me
seriously? And I think that was also a
concern of mine, too. So yeah, I think that is to say
that, yeah, there was a lot of uncertainty.
And I think it's very terrifyingbecause not everyone's
experience is the same. You know, my experience is not
going to be same for the next person.

(01:21:45):
There's different people with different needs that brought
them there in the 1st place. Whether it's voluntary,
voluntarily or done involuntarily, you know.
Yeah. I was.
I was going to ask, like, you know, it's been, it's been just

(01:22:10):
over a year since since you're in this like, new era of your
life. Yeah.
What do you feel like you have learned, like whether you've
been doing differently? Have you been like, navigating
your day-to-day? Yeah.
So after I got discharged I was going into IOP, which is the

(01:22:34):
which is the in. Can't even think of the.
Right, intensive outpatient. Thank you.
Thank. You.
I've done it twice. I'm such an IOP pro.
Yeah. And I did it and I did it
online. And I literally had to play
hardball with the powers that beto do it because I'm like, I was

(01:22:56):
very terrified about what my jobwas going to say about like, OK,
now I'm gonna have to take now I'm gonna have to like rewrite
my entire schedule for the next three months.
And like, how do I tell this to my boss?
How do I navigate this? And also like the fact that at
the time I wanted to, I wanted to move quickly away from what

(01:23:22):
had happened. You know, like I wanted to just
get away from it. I did not want to be reminded
about what I did. I did not want to be told, you
know, and I think I. Remember, you were very much
like, well, I'm out of the hospital now, so like, I'm done.
I'm I'm good. In a way, in a way I wasn't
because I was like I was gettingthe medication.
I thought the medication I was on was working.
Wellbutrin has made me a lot more sassy and more spicy than

(01:23:44):
ever, which I love. But but I felt like I was kind
of on the right path and I thinkI was arguing with a good friend
of mine and I said that I'm likereally sick of this.
I think this is, this is silly and I don't like this method and
I don't feel like I want to be confined the entire day being

(01:24:06):
online, you know, I mean, because I had to work remotely,
like less than an hour later, I have to be on for another three
hours and I'm just like, this isnot the life for me and I need
to go outside. I need to be able to feel alive
and not be confined, you know, to this.
But I but my friend kept reminding me he's like, no, like

(01:24:29):
you're not OK. Like, you know, you just got out
of a very traumatic situation. And, you know, my brothers, my,
some of my friends, including yourself, were, you know, trying
to help me think a certain view,a certain, a certain way about

(01:24:51):
it. And like, what does that look
like to me? And, and I think that part of it
was through fear and part of it was also through being exhausted
from it. And you know, the next few
months when I was going through it, it was starting to become
helpful because at least I was able to finally reflect and
actually think about different ways of, of approaching certain

(01:25:16):
situations, certain thought process.
I learned about dots diffusion. I thought there were, there were
mechanisms that I was able to use.
You know, there was 1 moment when I knew that I really needed
it was when I was at work one day and I just froze.
I just had this, you know, this,this moment.

(01:25:39):
And I felt like I had to excuse myself and go back home, and I
realized that maybe I'm not out of the woods quite yet as I
thought I was. And now I figured why I really
needed it. But I think it was very helpful
in some ways because it did allow me to rethink about the
things that did not work for me prior to that that actually

(01:26:02):
contributed to my downfall abouthow I was doing my relationship
would work, how I was really doing my relationships with
people within my family and within within my friends and
acquaintances. And, and I think what also was

(01:26:22):
very helpful to me was going on the Vietnam Cambodia trip at the
end of the year. You know, my brother was dying
at the time, and I was, you know, obviously contemplating
whether or not I should cancel that trip.
And my brother called me and said, no, you need to go through
with it. And I said, well, you need to
make sure that you're OK when I'm gone.

(01:26:44):
And I mean he. Held on till you.
Got back he did and you know, like that trip was a that trip
was very life changing to me, like so much so that I still
think about it quite often. Like like it allow me to.
I experienced something on my own and reconnect with a culture

(01:27:09):
that at times I felt very distant from and and really
guarded about because of, you know, not being such and such
enough. And that is something that we
all experience as Asian Americans.
We experience the not enoughnessand, and you know, to come back
to it and being able to dictate it in my own way without having

(01:27:34):
family members to visit, withoutbringing a family member.
I felt like I need to do it on my own and to think about the
narrative that I want for myselfwith this trip.
And yeah, I had so much fun. I felt very, it felt very
freeing and I learned a lot about myself.
I thought it was a very healing.There were many healing moments.

(01:27:56):
Some of it was very emotional for me.
But I think that actually made me realize, like, wow, to end
the year in another country in Cambodia, you know, I never
thought that that was possible acouple years ago.
And here I was, you know, you know, dancing and, you know, on
the rooftop of my hotel, you know, to Cambodian music and

(01:28:20):
realizing, gosh, you know, to think that couple months ago my
life would have ended. And then I'm here dancing into
the new year of 2025. When I got back home 2 weeks
later, my brother passes away. And, you know, for some reason,
I always think that he was goingto hold on for another several

(01:28:43):
months because, you know, knowing the way his life was
going, it didn't seem very promising.
But it, it really, it really in a way was hard to really
processed and taken. And I think when I look back on
this year, that trip itself and then the IOP, I think in ways

(01:29:08):
that help me to recover from what happened prior.
But it also in a way set the stage for how I was going to
grieve my brother's loss. And you know, I'm gosh, like 9
months and I believe, I mean he died in middle January and I
mean I still agree it's. Been like, it's been like almost

(01:29:30):
exactly nights. Yeah, and I mean, the holidays
are going to be coming is 1 yearwill come up before you know it.
Yeah. And The thing is that, yeah, I
still grieve quite a bit. I mean, I mean, I have like a
lot of happy moments. Don't get me wrong.
I find joy. I mean, I would dance on TikTok.
I will, you know, do things thatare things that I didn't feel

(01:29:53):
like I was doing last year, likeI wanted to do things that was
just more freeing and just more random.
But part of it is because I had to fill some of the void that I
was feeling because when I when I would drive by myself, you
know, at any point during the day, I think about my brother
all the time. And yeah, I get very teary eyed.

(01:30:14):
I don't think there's a day thatI don't get that I don't shed a
tear, you know, and thinking about that loss and, you know,
I'm also thinking about what I had done last summer and how,
you know, we as brothers, me, Andy and Tony, we all
reconnected at that same time. And for us to reconnect, as hard

(01:30:36):
as it's for me to say, as a result of my near death
experience, in a way it, you know, brought some level of
peace between US and some connection that we really
needed. And I think that was very
helpful. So I wonder what would have

(01:30:57):
happened had I not gone through with it, but somehow stayed the
course and my brother passes. Would I still be here now?
I mean, I think about the different scenarios that could
play into my head. But you know, like how that
would have affected me had I notgone to IOP, had I not gone
through on my trip and my brother passes and other things

(01:31:18):
that we're still teeming from last year heading into it, I
don't know if I would have been as lucky too.
So that kind of goes to show that, yeah, nothing is very
particularly linear. And if you pick out one scenario
or another, because it's becausea lot can happen and not

(01:31:39):
everything is happens. Like, if I did this route, this
would have happened. But it doesn't always work that
way. And I think sometimes I kind of
have to remind myself of that. Yeah.
But for you, like what have you,I know that you have touched
upon this, but what have you been able to unlearn in your

(01:32:01):
bonus years that the things thatyou were that you subconsciously
were trying to get away from that led you to what happened?
And like what has been your approach to rewiring and or or
redirecting your energy towards?Yeah.

(01:32:23):
I mean, that's, it's such an interesting question.
It's such a good question. I mean, I, you know, we talked
at the beginning about just likewhat it's like to be a person
right now, like what it's like to be alive in the world right
now and how, how it's just like not fun for any of us.

(01:32:47):
And like even even within that, like I wouldn't necessarily say
I would. I'm like having the best time,
like being in the world right now.
And also like I, I'm so gratefulfor like what these bonus years
have given me. I, I think that for me, like I

(01:33:09):
have done similar to you, like have done a lot of slowing down.
Part of that is because I've hadto that like prior to 2019, I
had, I had been living with chronic illness and I still AM.
And that my chronic illness has been exacerbated like by having,

(01:33:33):
by having COVID and like living,living in a world where like
COVID is still really present. Like that's had an impact on
both my physical health and likeshifting my physical health, but
has also had an impact on my mental health.
And so I have, I have like slowed down a lot.

(01:33:53):
My, my relationships have becomea lot deeper.
So like I have, I have fewer like really strong
relationships, but the ones thatI do like I, I haven't, they
have incredible depth and I'm sograteful for that.

(01:34:14):
You know, like there are times when like, I wish that I had
like a lot more friends and a lot more acquaintances and also
that like the world was a place where like I could just be in
the world with my chronic illnesses.
There are a lot of spaces that like I can't be in because there
are so many other people that are unmasked or I can't be in

(01:34:36):
because like there's just like, no, yeah, because there's no
masking happening at all. And so that is sad.
But I have definitely like learned a lot about, about
relationship and like how to, how to just like really have
depth of relationship a lot of time with my niblings.
I really, really love my niblings and have like, they're

(01:34:58):
such an important part of my life.
And so I, I'm like, so grateful that like, one of the things
that these bonus years have given me is like getting to like
getting to know them and like getting to watch them grow up
and like getting to like be partof like the like adults that are

(01:35:21):
like helping them become people.Like it's such a gift.
I have like, I have gained a lotof clarity around like my own
purpose in the world and like the things that like connect me
to, to my own spirituality. And so that's been super

(01:35:44):
important for me and like very, very grounding for me and just
like fills me with a lot of warmth and a lot of hope.
I will say like it truthfully, like not as much these past 18
months, but like in general, like it's been a place of solace

(01:36:07):
for me. And I also have like worked
really hard and like proved to myself that there are things
that like, I can do that like I didn't think was possible.
So like, I, I am like a small business owner, like I own and I
run my own business and it's, it's challenging and it's

(01:36:29):
rewarding. And I some, I some days will
wake up and like can't believe that like I am doing these
things like to, to like sustain myself, that like I, I am
supporting myself in these ways.And so I think I, I just like

(01:36:51):
often will will wake up and, andrealize that like, wow, like I
really. Am like.
I'm alive and I'm living in the.World and I'm connected.
To people, and I'm connected to purpose and I'm connected to

(01:37:12):
vision and I'm connected to hope.
And I think that those things are such gifts.
And if I weren't alive for it right now, then I, I wouldn't be
connected to those things and I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have
been able to prove to myself that like I actually can survive

(01:37:33):
some of the worst things that have happened to me.
And so those are those are ways that like I have.
I have gained. Like deeper, deeper appreciation
for life. I mean, there are definitely
things that like, I wish I were not alive to see that I wish I
didn't have to live through likeI am.

(01:37:54):
I am very done living through historical events.
I am very done like being livingthrough character development.
Like I'm very done kind of like there's some days where I'm very
done growing as a person, but like I don't actually, I'm like
I can, I can just chill for a little bit.
I don't actually need to grow asa person every every moment of

(01:38:16):
every day. But yeah, in general, I am, I am
grateful and grateful for the opportunity to like connect with
and to care for others and to remind people that like their,
their presence in this world is essential.

(01:38:38):
That like they're so important to this world that like, and
that's a belief that I have. Like I feel like, like in spite
of myself, I am like a very earnest.
Person. Like it is it is a very like
cringe part of myself that I have like needed to come to
appreciate. But that like I yeah, I believe

(01:39:00):
that like every. I believe that that like the
world is made better by the. People who are.
In it that like, you know, the world is the world is a better
place because of what you individually bring to it.
The world is a better place because of like what so many of
our other friends bring to it. The world is a better place

(01:39:22):
because of like what others bring to it.
And it's not, it's not my world to own.
It's just it's the world that I am like tasked with caring for
for this little bit of time thatI am alive.
And that has been a thing that Ihave grown to appreciate.

(01:39:42):
The other thing that I wanted toshare is that it's I think.
Going through. Experiencing my own survival of
suicide and then accompanying you through your experience
surviving suicide has like. Really deepened.
My understanding of like what itmeans for us as like a society

(01:40:06):
and culture to like truly, trulylike dig into and truly, yeah,
truly like make a place for likesuicide prevention that goes
beyond awareness, that goes beyond like.
I know one of your biggest pet peeves is when people are like,
well, you know, I'm here if you want to call me like it.

(01:40:31):
It takes so much more than that.I think like on a societal and
cultural level, but also like building, building our own
individual muscle and building our own skills.
Feel like because of like my ownpolitical beliefs and like that
are very like very far left, butalso very like anti

(01:40:54):
authoritarian. But I am like constantly rooted
in, in a belief of autonomy and that like we actually like can
learn to do so many things that like we don't have to outsource
our expertise to other people. We don't have to outsource our
knowledge to other people. Like, we can learn to do things

(01:41:15):
together. We can learn to do things
ourselves. And like, by doing those things,
we actually can move further away from like, harmful
institutions within the government, within other, within
prisons, within militaries. And so it's made me incredibly
passionate about, yeah, about just how we have to like,

(01:41:39):
completely transform the world is our, is like our best suicide
prevention, like to care for each other deeply and like
really, really tangible and material ways, but to also like,
change the conditions that we'reliving in so that people
remember why they want to be alive.

(01:42:01):
Yeah. I truly appreciate.
You, you know, taking us throughthe deep dive.
But also like really painting a vision of what care can really
look like if we, you know, do things differently and if we
start to reimagine things in a more compassionate, attuned way.

(01:42:22):
And, and you know, I, I was going to ask you about like,
what does friendships mean to you since you're a temp?
Like what kind of friends do youconnect with or do you make you
feel like you receive better from or that you feel like feel
like that you are in more alignment with?

(01:42:42):
Because I think in my case, I want someone who is very
thoughtful, who is very engaged as a listener.
And I feel like it's not about you having solutions.
Like I'm not looking for a solution.

(01:43:02):
I'm not looking for a for you tostop me.
I'm looking for a place where I need space to just talk and to
just be able to breathe and not feel like I'm alone in this, you
know? And that's something I think
about because, because I, I, because certain people have told

(01:43:25):
me like, oh gosh, I don't know what to say.
I don't know what to do. Like I feel like I have nothing
else to really say in a way. And I said, well, no, that's not
what I'm looking for. What I'm looking for is that
like just the care just to know that I can trust you with what
I'm sharing and that I can at least let go of some of the the

(01:43:48):
uncertainty that I'm holding. Yeah, I mean for me, like the
thing that I. Really value most about my
closest friendships is is reciprocity.
So like be being able to show upfor each other in lots of

(01:44:09):
different situations and and circumstances.
And also like being able to havebeing able to have fun together,
but also being able to to like really support each other and to
feel a sense of like really strong connection and belonging

(01:44:32):
from from people. And also that like people are
not necessarily going to. Like people are going to do
their. Best to like not be to to not
cause harm and that like when when they do it like they're
actually going to. Like take.

(01:44:53):
Clear and concrete steps to likerepair harm rather than like
being in denial of it or, or, you know, believing that that
instances of harm and abuse and hurt have like not impacted me
like one of the. So like I, you know, we, we talk

(01:45:16):
so often and like we have, we'velike said these words to each
other. But one of the things that I
like most appreciate about our friendship is that like we, we
have like we can and like have seen each other through so many
different moods. But like, because of the work,
the type of work that I do, likeboth in my paid work and also

(01:45:40):
like in my community and organizing work that like often
I'm the friend that people call when there's like a crisis or
like they have to make a really hard decision or they need help.
But they're, and you know, I, I,I, I really appreciate that.
Like people, you know, lean on me in those ways and like, trust

(01:46:03):
me in like those really, really vulnerable moments of their
lives. But I have fewer friends that,
you know, see me as like the funfriend, right?
And I. I you know I'm not.
Necessarily a person who's like super fun all the time, like I
am, I am neurodivergent and I amsober.

(01:46:23):
I've been sober for like many, many years.
And I'm also disabled and like so only like go out into like
public spaces where I'm able to mask and where like other people
are masking. And so, you know, maybe that's
not like who you think of when you're like thinking most of
fun, but like, you know, in our friendship that like you and I

(01:46:45):
have, you're you're the type of person that like I can call or
that like will call me if we're like completely in tears.
Like I have called you when I'm like in tears and like having
the worst day of my life. But also, like, you're a person
who will like, reach out to like, go to a concert together

(01:47:06):
or who will call to like, talk shit about Justin Timberlake or
we'll like call him like, like you'll ask like, you know, my
thoughts about like the, like, the WNBA season or like the NBA
draft or like the trades they'rehappening in the offseason.
And so like I, yeah, I feel likebecause we can.

(01:47:29):
Both like Have fun. And like be like, have real
connection and like in very, very unserious moments as well
as like really be there for eachother in reliable ways.
And like really, really serious times.
Whether it's like mental health stuff, whether it's, it's like

(01:47:51):
trauma and violence, whether it's community harm, that like
those are things they appreciatein the relationship.
Like the, just the, the spectrumof that.
Like I don't, I, yeah, I, I don't necessarily like being
the, the person that is like only there for people when

(01:48:13):
they're going through a hard thing, but that like they going
off and like have fun with others.
And I also, you know, like, havehad a hard time, like being in
spaces where people are just having fun.
But like, they're not. I like, might bring up something
that is related to social justice or related to, like,
current events. And they, like, don't want to

(01:48:36):
talk about it at all. And so it's that balance.
Yeah. It's that it's that balance for
me that has been really important.
And not just friendships in general, but I think our
friendship. And like, one of the reasons
that I thought that this conversation about mental health
and about surviving suicide and kind of what what's on the

(01:48:57):
other, what can happen on the other side of that was really
important to me. Yeah.
And This is why I accepted your invitation to do this, because.
Like this is something that I think about often about the
relationships I have with people, including yourself, and
how that has been instrumental in my recovery as we speak.

(01:49:18):
And, and how it has equipped me to think of ways to be a better
friend and to think of my relationships with people in
general that I'm in contact with.
Studying a reasonable expectation, knowing that
expectations can shift and beingnot afraid to be transparent.

(01:49:38):
And you know, I, I want to also say that you are a very funny
person. I do laugh a lot.
You do like to shade and roast me like on post and sometimes
like response. It's like, jeez, John, do you
have to go there already? I mean, I do.
I do have a very good laugh at it.

(01:49:58):
And sometimes I'm like, you know, I have said, I have said
that when I do a birthday roast one day, I don't know when I
feel like there's a couple people that would be glad to do
it. And for some people it might be
therapy. I think for you, it'll
definitely be like part therapy,I guess in some ways therapeutic

(01:50:21):
in a way, but also because I feel like you have so much of
that energy that's still untapped that you would like to
play comedian as. But I think you're very funny
and you're very observant, and Ilove that about you because you
observe things that sometimes I'm like, oh, I never thought of
it that way, you know? So yes, well, I'm really glad we

(01:50:42):
got to have this conversation. Thanks for letting me suggest
it, Randy. Yeah, and I, I also just want to
say I've said this so many times, but like, I'm happy that
you are alive. I'm happy that you are still in
this world. Me too.
And I'm glad that I that the bonus years have given me a.
Chance to deepen our friendship and that is really, you know,

(01:51:08):
that I've got to experience evenbetter things from you since
then. I mean, you know, from 2019 to
now to 2020 towards the end of 2025, it's like, gosh, you know,
to see the transformation and the and and the evolution of our
friendship has been very meaningful.
So I'm always very grateful for this experience and look forward

(01:51:34):
to seeing how we can create moreopportunities and hopefully
create and experience more joyful moments.
Yay. Well, thank you so much, Young.
I really. Appreciate your time and
everything. All the best to you.

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