February 17, 2025 • 36 mins
Welcome back to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast! Tune in for a special milestone episode today (number 300), where we share our top 5 tips for passing the bar exam.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Making the most of your bar exam practice
- Organizing your life during the bar prep period
- Acting vs. passive learning
- Looking at the bar exam in the grand scheme of things
- The mental aspect of preparing for the bar
Resources:
- Private Bar Exam Tutoring (https://barexamtoolbox.com/private-bar-exam-tutoring/)
- Podcast Episode 51: Making the Most of Your Bar Exam Practice (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-51-making-the-most-of-your-bar-exam-practice/)
- Podcast Episode 78: Learning Through Mistakes in Bar Prep (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-78-learning-through-mistakes-in-bar-prep/)
- Podcast Episode 155: Creating a Study Schedule for the Bar Exam (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-155-creating-a-study-schedule-for-the-bar-exam/)
- Podcast Episode 219: Quick Tips – Breathing Exercises for Test-Day Anxiety (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-219-quick-tips-breathing-exercises-for-test-day-anxiety/)
- Podcast Episode 223: Quick Tips – Balancing Passive and Active Studying for the Bar Exam (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-223-quick-tips-balancing-passive-and-active-studying-for-the-bar-exam/)
- Podcast Episode 244: Spaced Repetition and Memorization During Bar Prep (w/Gabe Teninbaum) (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-244-spaced-repetition-and-memorization-during-bar-prep-w-gabe-teninbaum/)
- Podcast Episode 261: Quick Tips – Bar Exam Accommodations Basics (https://barexamtoolbox.com/podcast-episode-261-quick-tips-bar-exam-accommodations-basics/)
- Benefits of Practice Questions (https://barexamtoolbox.com/benefits-of-practice-questions/)
- How to Pass the Bar by Doing What Makes You the Most Uncomfortable (https://barexamtoolbox.com/how-to-pass-the-bar-by-doing-what-makes-you-the-most-uncomfortable/)
- Getting Ready to Study for the Bar Exam: How to Develop Good Study Habits (https://barexamtoolbox.com/getting-ready-to-study-for-the-bar-exam-how-to-develop-good-study-habits/)
- Bar Study Tips: Getting Mentally Ready for the Bar Exam (https://barexamtoolbox.com/bar-study
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lee Burgess (00:01):
Welcome to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast.
Today we are excited to celebrateour 300th episode with our top
five tips for passing the bar exam.
Your Bar Exam Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonaghan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the barexam experience, so you can study
effectively, stay sane, and hopefullypass and move on with your life.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
(00:24):
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, please leavea review on your favorite listening
app, and check out our sister podcast,the Law School Toolbox podcast.
If you have any questions, don'thesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via thecontact form on BarExamToolbox.
com, and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Alison Monahan (00:52):
Welcome back!
Today, we're excited to celebrateour 300th episode with our top
five tips for passing the bar exam.
Alright, let's see.
What's our number one tip?
Lee Burgess (01:04):
If anyone listens to the podcast regularly,
this should not be a surprise.
It is practice, practice,and then do more practice.
Yet, in all the years - and we've nowbeen doing this for quite a few years we
still talk to students who don't practicethe first time they sit for the bar.
Alison Monahan (01:20):
Yeah.
I think everybody has the best intentions,but the reality is, it's easy to get
sucked into doing other things thatmaybe aren't quite as stressful as
sitting down and actually trying towrite out a full exam answer, doing
a whole PT. There's so much to dothat I can see people are just like,
"Well, I've got to learn all this law.
I mean, that's my focus, right?
I've just got to learn the law.
(01:41):
I've got to learn the law.
If I know the law, I'll pass the exam."Unfortunately, that doesn't work,
Lee Burgess (01:44):
usually.
No, because you can have wrong lawand still get quite a few points.
That is really the thing that I thinkgets lost, is this idea that what
they're really the most focused on isthe analysis piece, and the only way you
can practice analysis is by doing hypos.
Alison Monahan (02:02):
Right.
And I think it's also critical thatyou do what you actually have to do.
So I talk often to people who say,"Well, I outlined a lot of answers."
And it's like, "Okay, well, that'ssort of step one in the process.
But did you actually sitdown and write them out?
Did you do that in a closed-book scenario?
Did you do that under timed conditions?"And generally, the answer is "no".
Lee Burgess (02:23):
Yeah.
I've also gotten a lot of "I read themodel answers", which also doesn't count.
Alison Monahan (02:29):
Right.
I mean, we're not saying theseare terrible things to do.
It's just maybe not the best thingand the most efficient way that you
could be preparing for this test.
And that's the problem, isyou don't have unlimited time.
Lee Burgess (02:41):
And we know from research around learning that asking yourself
to recall things and making mistakesis one of the ways that we learn.
You can learn that by watchingchildren learn, you can learn
that by trying to learn many ofthe other things we do in life.
But that feeling of being uncomfortableis part of the process, and because you're
(03:02):
uncomfortable, you're going to retain it.
So, I think it's so important forfolks to remember that doing a practice
question, getting it wrong, going back andreviewing it, and maybe rewriting it, is
likely going to stick in your brain morethan just passively reading an outline.
Right.
Alison Monahan (03:19):
Or on the MBE sometimes people say, "Well, I just read the answer
choices and I read their explanations.And the one they had sounded right to
me." And it's like, okay, that's notexactly what we're talking about here.
It's like, the person who wrote thoseanswer choices already knew the answer.
So, you need to try toactually struggle through.
As you know, I relate everythingin my life now to skiing, because
(03:42):
that's what I do every day.
But practice - really fundamental.
If you could learn to ski by watchingYouTube, I as a ski instructor
would not have a job to do.
The reality is, you can get a tip, andthat's great and maybe something to go out
and think about and work on and practice.
But you have to literally goout and do it, and you have
(04:02):
to evaluate how it worked.
And then what I'm finding interestinglately - I was thinking about this today
so, a couple of days ago, I had somebodyshow up and give me this great tip that
really changed my skiing for like a day.
And I've been trying to practice it eversince and really ingrain it in my head.
And the funny part is, the moreyou do that, almost the more
awkward and weird it all gets.
(04:24):
And I'm beginning to think that mightbe part of the learning process.
Lee Burgess (04:27):
Yeah.
I think that's a really interesting point.
I was also thinking about thiswhile playing tennis today.
So we're now a sporting podcast.
But I play tennis, and I was discussingwith my coach why it is easier for me
to play somebody who's better than Iam than it is for me to play somebody
(04:47):
who is worse, whatever that means,but is not as highly ranked as I am.
And not like I'm rankedlike I'm at the U.S. Open.
We're talking aboutcommunity leagues and stuff.
Anyway, for those who don't play tennis,you have a number assigned to how good
you are as a tennis player, even ifyou're not a really good tennis player.
Alison Monahan (05:04):
ha, Right, so that people could play about the same
Lee Burgess (05:06):
level.
Right, exactly.
But I can easily play upand I struggle to play down.
And one of the things that I foundinteresting as I was talking to my
coach about this, was, he was discussinghow when you are playing kind of down,
you have to be in charge of the game.
They're giving you nothing to play off of.
And how much harder that isthan if a coach is hitting
(05:27):
to you, or somebody better.
You're getting their pace, you're gettingtheir ball placement, their game maybe
makes more sense to you, because they'renot just popping it back over the court,
and then you have to do something with it.
And I think that idea of really havingto be the driver, really having to rely
on yourself to work with this materialand make something out of it, is
(05:48):
something that we oftentimes don't do.
That is harder for me.
It is harder for me to play withsomeone who gives me nothing.
That makes me come up with it all myself.
Alison Monahan (05:58):
No, for sure, that was always the case.
I played high school tennisand it was the same thing.
I would go out and beatlike the number one seed
on the other team.
And people were like, "Ohmy gosh, you're great".
And then I would go lose tolike the worst person on a
Lee Burgess (06:09):
different team.
I know.
Alison Monahan (06:09):
Drives
me
Lee Burgess (06:10):
Partly
Alison Monahan (06:10):
for me was, I got bored and I just wasn't focused.
But yeah, there is something to that.
And I was thinking about this aswell, what you were just saying - I
think it's this weird balance withpractice of trusting yourself and your
instincts, but also taking feedback.
I think it's the Buddhists who have thisphrase of, when the student is ready, the
teacher appears, or something like that.
(06:32):
Because with skiing, there are things thatI've heard for years, and then suddenly
one day it clicks, and I understandwhat they meant by it all those days.
But then I have to kind oftake it and make it my own.
And so, with the practice it's like,you kind of got to get some feedback
on how you're doing, but then at somepoint you have to internalize that
because you have to be evaluatingon the exam, "Am I performing to
(06:56):
the level I need to in real time?"
Lee Burgess (06:58):
Yeah.
I think what you can really takefrom our lessons from sporting...
Alison Monahan (07:03):
So we're so sporty.
Lee Burgess (07:05):
We're so sporty, oh my goodness.
If you hung out with us in person...
Alison Monahan (07:09):
We're not.
We're really not.
Lee Burgess (07:10):
...would be like, "You're really that sporty? What?" But, no.
But there are things thatyou can learn from sports.
One is, it keeps us in the growth mindset,which is, I think, one of the reasons you
and I both like doing stuff like this.
I also ski; we ski together.
But it's like you're challengingyourself constantly, right?
It's not something youcan do on autopilot.
That's one of the things I likeabout sports, you have to be engaged.
(07:33):
If I don't pay attention when I'mplaying tennis, I literally can't play.
Same thing with skiing - if you don'twant to hurt yourself, you have to
pay attention to what you're doing.
And I think that presence that comesfrom that and this awareness of the
struggle and how you're changingyour body or how you're learning and
taking in feedback - those lessons areoften easier learned doing something
(07:54):
physical than doing something in anacademic setting like this, where it's
like, the practice is the same stuff.
It's going down the ski slope, it'splaying the match and not doing well,
and then trying to go to your coachor your teacher and say, "Why didn't
that go well?" And then internalizingtheir feedback and trying again.
We know in all these otherparts of our lives that to get
(08:14):
better, you have to practice.
Nobody would tell me that I could get abetter tennis game by not playing tennis.
Or that I could be abetter skier by not skiing.
Alison Monahan (08:22):
No.
Unfortunately, watching theAustralian Open is probably not
going to impact your tennis game
Lee Burgess (08:26):
all that much.
No.
Even as much as I enjoy it, it doesnot influence my tennis game that much.
Although you can say, "Oh, that wasquite impressive." But yeah, that's
not the same as putting yourself ina position to have to do it yourself.
So, you know these lessons.
If you're studying for the bar, thereis something you do in your life
that has taught you this lesson.
(08:46):
And you need to figure out how to applyit to the bar and realize that this
practice is just like all the otherpractice in all the other things that
you do in your life, that maybe youforce yourself to do to get better.
For some reason, this academic oneseems to be really challenging.
Alison Monahan (09:04):
Yeah.
And I think just accepting thatthe practice is the struggle,
which is kind of the point of this.
And that's what's laying down thedifferent neural pathways in your brain,
so that hopefully by the time you getto the exam, some of this is a habit.
And when you get under stress, youfall back usually on habitual patterns.
So you want to have something to fall backon of like, "Okay, I know this is how I
do my pre-writing outline. I'm just goingto do it the same way I always do it."
(09:28):
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (09:30):
Our next tip for bar exam success is, organize your
life and have a day of plans.
So it's like a two-part tip,but it's an important one.
Alison Monahan (09:39):
Yeah, I'd say this is kind of the executive
functioning piece of the test, andso many people really struggle.
And some of this is out of your control.
I mean, things happen.
We're recording thisafter the fires in LA.
We know people whose housesburned down and they're supposed
to be studying for the bar.
That is out of your control.
However, there are other thingsthat are within your control.
(10:00):
And some of this is about timing.
Is this really the best timefor you to be studying for,
preparing for taking this exam?
And if the answer to that is "no",then there's another time for it.
Lee Burgess (10:11):
Yeah.
And I think that's suchan important question.
We have talked to so many people whofailed, and when you start really
asking them what happened, somethings, can be tragedies, right?
They lost a family member, orsomebody got critically ill.
But there's a lot of stuff that we hearthat's like, "Well, I moved", "I got
married", "I went on a two-week vacation."You can plan around all those things.
(10:31):
I'm not saying youshould move your wedding.
If you want to get married, go forit, but maybe don't also study for
the bar while you're getting married.
That might not be thebest use of your time.
If you're a foreign-trained attorneyand you're working full-time and you
have mountains of law to learn becauseyou didn't go to a U.S. law school,
you're not going to have enough hours.
You need to plan your life to allowyourself a longer time to study.
(10:54):
I also think that resources arereally important to look at.
If you need additional help, if you needa tutor, if you need a different bar
provider, whatever it might be, sometimesit's great to take a break and make
money, and then come back and feel likeyou're in a better financial situation.
We've seen all sorts ofsuccess with people developing
(11:14):
plans and executing them.
I think where we see it fall apartis when there's no plan, and then
life just comes at you, and you'regetting ping ponged around by it.
If those things are in yourcontrol, you definitely want to do
something to avoid that reality.
Alison Monahan (11:29):
Yeah.
Or their plan is, "I'm going to workfull-time and then study five hours a
night, every night, plus all weekend."And it's like, that's not realistic.
No one can do that.
If that's really your plan,that is not a good plan.
Lee Burgess (11:43):
Diminishing returns.
I was listening to a Huberman podcast.
I'm not like a huge Huberman...because they're like two hours plus.
Anyway, he does have somegood guests on there.
But somebody did sendme one of his podcasts.
And then I was listening to anotherone because it started going
through and then I'm in the carand I can't change the podcast.
You know how it goes.
Alison Monahan (12:02):
It's what they're banking on.
Lee Burgess (12:03):
I know.
But he was talking about hisschedule, because he's kind of a life
biohacker, life hack type person.
But he was talking about his ownschedule and how he only believes
he can work so many hours a day.
And he was talking about how like 90minutes in the morning are his most
productive time, and then he hastime that's creative time, and time
where he can do more mundane tasks.
But even he was talking abouthow he maxes out on the number
(12:26):
of hours that he can work.
And this is somebody whothis is his whole deal.
Alison Monahan (12:32):
Yeah, his whole jam
Lee Burgess (12:33):
is working.
His whole jam is optimizinglife in all ways.
Not to say that he has it figuredout, but that's what he's focused
on, is optimization, right?
And so he was talking aboutlearning and being efficient, and
doing different kinds of work.
And it did make me think about peoplestudying for the bar, because so often
we try and have this conversation ofhow many hours can you really do this?
(12:53):
What is the best time of day for you tomemorize information versus do practice?
And oftentimes, for most people,it's not 10:00 o'clock at night.
But a lot of people like to thinkit's 10:00 o'clock at night.
And there are very few people, few andfar between, for whom they're going to
do their best learning late at night.
And so you really have to create aschedule that's going to give you
(13:15):
returns on the time investment, oryou're just on the fast train to burnout.
Alison Monahan (13:20):
Yeah, exactly.
And in addition to setting up thatschedule, you've also got to make sure
everything day of is ready to go, becausethat's always really disappointing for
people, and when we hear these storiesabout something going wrong on the day
of oops, you forgot to book your hotelroom, or it was far away, or your laptop
(13:40):
failed, you didn't know how to get to thetesting center, you were late to the test.
I mean, there are allthese things that happen.
We've heard a ton of different things.
And you just don't want that to happento you; you've worked hard for this.
Just go ahead and close that loop onthe last little bit of it and make
sure you show up early with everythingyou need, you've read the rules.
If you're in California now, thereare all these new rules about things.
(14:04):
You want to make sure that you aregoing to be compliant, because the bar
does not give people a lot of leeway.
Lee Burgess (14:09):
No.
There are too many people and it's just,they have to be too rigid, right or wrong.
If you need something special, youmust apply for accommodations for it.
Even if you're not sure it's a specialaccommodation, you need to apply for it.
And this includes your jurisdiction hasrules about a pillow that you could bring
for your back, or a type of keyboard,or a mouse, or all sorts of things.
(14:35):
You need to read those rules and go tothe bar and say, if you need one of these
things, it's a special accommodation.
You don't want to show up on test daywith your ergonomic keyboard, and have
them, one, even threaten to give yousome sort of ethical violation, which
nobody wants, or two, just create dramawhen everybody's already so charged
and on edge, and all of that stuff.
(14:57):
And I was thinking about thetraffic and things like that.
There was just another fire off of I-5yesterday, and they just closed I-5.
You could be somewhere wherethey could just close a freeway.
I mean, things happen.
Alison Monahan (15:12):
Yeah.
I think you want to make surethat you've minimized as many
possible problems as you can.
Lee Burgess (15:17):
Yes.
Alison Monahan (15:18):
Alright.
Well, next up we have our thirdtip - focusing on active learning.
Lee Burgess (15:26):
Oh, yes.
This is something else if youlisten to the podcast that you
should be very familiar with.
But it goes back to what we weretalking about with the practice, is
that the only way to make the magichappen is to get uncomfortable and
force yourself to do hard things.
And we all get sucked intopassively doing things.
(15:49):
I always think about these bar lectureswhenever I'm in my car listening to
a podcast or an audiobook and thenrealize I have no idea what they're
talking about, because my brainhas just gone off somewhere else.
I'm thinking about my to-dolist or that I need to text
somebody or call somebody back.
And then you realize minutes havegone by and you have no clue.
I've been listening, in theory, butit didn't internalize into my brain.
(16:13):
And we know from data that passivelistening is not the most effective way
for most people to retain information.
It's less effective than reading.
And so, it's just a hard thing tosay that you're going to accept, is
that all these bar providers thatgive you hours and hours of lectures
that they just want you to watch arenot going to get you to your goals.
Alison Monahan (16:35):
Right.
Didn't we see that study, that peoplewho watch something, they feel better
about the amount of informationthey've retained, but if you actually
test them on it, they're way worse.
I find that fascinating.
It
Lee Burgess (16:46):
was in the Adam Grant book that I read last year
as an audio book, I'll be honest.
But then I did have a physical copyand I went back and re-read it so
I could talk about it with somesort of authority on the podcast.
Alison Monahan (16:57):
Yeah, I found that so interesting.
It does then explain why people areso reluctant to give up those videos.
Yes,
Lee Burgess (17:05):
I know.
And folks are shocked when wemake the suggestion that they
should not spend their time.
Alison Monahan (17:11):
They should just stop.
Lee Burgess (17:12):
They should stop.
They're like,
"Alison Monahan: But I paid for it."
I It's like,
"Alison Monahan: That's great.
Do you want to take the examagain, or do you want to pass?"
Right.
Or if you've done it once,why would you do it again?
That's also my favorite.
It's like, it didn't work the first time.
And honestly, folks, I took oneof those commercial courses.
It didn't really work forme the first time either.
(17:33):
I aborted and went back to studyingthe way that I knew I got good grades
in law school, because I realizedthat I was putting in all of these
hours and I didn't know anything.
Alison Monahan (17:46):
Right.
No, I think that's the thing.
People walk away and they're like,"I actually did not A, understand,
or B, retain any of that information.
I think it's one thing if it'sa class you've never taken,
you have no introduction to.
Fine, watch a few hours of videos.
But that's it.
I don't know why people are sittingand watching hours of Contracts
and Torts and things like that.
I'm like, "You took this whole class."Unless you're a foreign-trained
(18:09):
attorney; that's different.
Lee Burgess (18:10):
Right.
Alison Monahan (18:10):
But if you did a JD, you took a lot of these classes.
I don't think theycompletely left your brain.
Lee Burgess (18:15):
No.
Or that you couldn't read an outlineand remember some of this law.
Alison Monahan (18:21):
Look at an outline, do some open-book
questions, and start applying it.
It doesn't have to gostraight to closed-book.
Lee Burgess (18:28):
Yeah.
The other thing I think that getslost in this discussion of active
learning is incremental gains.
This is something I talk to mychildren about - and myself - but I
also talk to my children about it.
Because none of us reallylike incremental gains.
Nobody likes just small victories,because they don't really feel like
you're getting to where you want to go.
We all want to see reallylarge positive gains.
(18:52):
But the reality is, the science doesn'treally back us up on that front.
Tiny habits and spaced repetition,which is something we've talked about
a lot on the podcast is this idea thatif you do a little bit every day, it
will all compound like interest andget bigger, and you will learn more.
And I think that when the amount oflaw that you need to learn feels so
(19:17):
big, it is very hard to say, "I'mgoing to take it in small chunks", but
that is exactly what you need to do.
And I think that's why we are passionatethat students look at spaced repetition,
that they look at the SmartBarPrepoutlines, they look at a manageable
amount of information and say, "I'mgoing to master this manageable amount
of information by chipping away atit every day. And I'm not going to
(19:40):
memorize the entire Contracts outlinetoday, because that is impractical."
Most of us won't be able to do it.
It's just the reality, and that's okay.
Alison Monahan (19:49):
Yeah, 100%.
I think everybody's looking fora magic wand that they can wave
that's going to be like, "Oh, thisis going to guarantee that I pass.
This is the one magic outline."I think there are even some
outlines called "magic outlines".
They're not magic.
I think it is this slow, chipping awayprocess, and there may be backsliding.
There may be days, like we'vetalked about, where things aren't
(20:10):
going well, and you just kind ofhave to keep plowing ahead with it.
I was going to say "trust the process",but I think that's how people sometimes
get in trouble, is they do trust theseprocesses that they're told are going
to work, but they're not criticallyevaluating if they're actually
working for the way that they learnor for the time they have available.
And I think unfortunate reality is,for a lot of people, they don't work.
Lee Burgess (20:32):
Yeah.
And you can set up thoseassessments for yourself.
Alison Monahan (20:37):
You
should be testing yourself.
You should
Lee Burgess (20:38):
be testing yourself.
I often, when I get on the phone withsomeone and we're talking about the law,
and we'll oftentimes be arguing abouthow they're supposed to be studying
for the exam, and I'll say, "Great.At the end of a..." How many hours
are some of these Evidence lectures?
It's eight hours; I mean,an insane amount of time.
"Can you list off all of the hearsayexceptions and list the rules
(21:02):
for each of them with elements?
Can you?" And most people arelike, "Nope." And I'm like,
"Well, that's a problem, becausethat's what you need for the bar."
Alison Monahan (21:13):
If you asked me that information, I'd be like,
"Where are my SmartBarPrep outlines?
Here you go.
Here are the 15 exceptions.
Would you like me to read them to you?"
Lee Burgess (21:20):
And there was a time when I could rattle them all off.
Now I could probably compile them,because I still know all of them.
But there was a time when I hada mnemonic and I had a list and
I could rattle them all off.
And I had a rule statement for each ofthem, and I had them memorized cold.
And that is what you need to know.
Those are the types of assessmentsyou can do for yourself.
If you're doing this morevideo-based approach, this
(21:43):
passive learning, quiz yourself.
Say, "Lee told me to list all of thehearsay exceptions and all of the
rules, and I couldn't, and that'sa problem." Well, there you go.
Alison Monahan (21:53):
Yeah.
No, I think quizzing yourself consistentlyis a really great way of doing it,
because again, when you find outyou got something wrong, that's what
helps your brain remember it later.
Lee Burgess (22:01):
Yep.
So, in a way, you should almostbe able to sit down and write
what's in a SmartBarPrep outline,by hand, out of your head.
I know that sounds very overwhelming, butnot if you do it incrementally every day.
Alison Monahan (22:13):
Well, and you could start with a green.
Start with the frequently tested rules.
That's like a third of it.
Lee Burgess (22:18):
Yep.
So, tiny things, every day.
Most people study for thebar for, what, 10 weeks?
Eight to 10 weeks?
Think about how many days that is.
You think about learning achunk of material, one page of
material over all of those days?
That is not that much material.
It is a reasonable amount of workif you thoughtfully do it every day.
Alison Monahan (22:39):
Yeah.
If anyone's not familiar withspace repetition, go listen to
those podcasts with Gabe Teninbaum.
He's amazing.
He talks about the science behind it.
It's very convincing.
Ten minutes a day - that's all you need.
You'll have 90% of the information in yourhead at the end of like eight to 10 weeks.
Lee Burgess (22:54):
Yeah, it's wild.
Next up on our top tips is (22:57):
Don't give the bar too much power.
It's important, but itis not life or death.
I feel like we have this conversationwith both our current students and
prospective students a lot, because thistest can really take on a life of its own.
Alison Monahan (23:15):
Yeah.
And I think this is a tricky one because,yes, the test is important, we get that.
It's very stressful.
It's a hard thing.
It's potentially preventing peoplefrom supporting themselves and
paying back their student loans.
Some people may have a job that's at risk.
There are really big thingsriding on this test, I get that.
However, at the same time, I don'tthink focusing on those things that are
(23:36):
riding on you passing or not passingis actually going to help you pass.
Lee Burgess (23:41):
Yeah.
In the end, it's still a test.
It's an important test withconsequences, but it's still a test.
You have taken lots oftests over the years.
And the question
Alison Monahan (23:49):
on the test is, how do you accumulate points?
And when you look at it like that, it'slike, "Okay, well, let's actually figure
out what pieces I might be able to getmore points on. How can I get more points
when I'm not getting points?" Everybody'sbetter and worse at certain things.
It's like, what do you want to focus on?
The MBE has seven topic areasthat's fewer than the essays.
Do you want to put moretime and energy there?
(24:11):
I'm not telling you what to do.
I'm just saying, this is howI would analyze the situation.
Lee Burgess (24:15):
Yeah, 100%.
And when I look at somebody's scores, Ioften approach it from that point of like,
where are we going to find some cushion?
Where are your strength areas, andhow can we collect more points there?
You can be strategic aboutthis test; it is a game.
You'd still have to do all the heavylifting that we've been talking about, but
(24:35):
it is important to keep it in its place.
And I think where folks reallyfind that it becomes impossible,
or almost that they are frozen andcan't move forward is when they just
feel that the stakes are too high.
I think back in the early days of us doingthis work, we have a really great podcast.
(24:56):
Pre-podcast.
This was a blog post.
This is how long this has beenaround, a blog, when we had
a blog that was very popular.
But the blog post was like "The QuestionNo one Asked Me", and it was basically
someone who had failed the bar once,was shocked that out in the real world
when she was practicing law, no one hadany idea that she ever failed the bar.
(25:16):
Nobody cared.
Nobody looked at when she passed.
The only people who I think really lookat those sorts of dates are people like
us, when we hire, because we ask how manybars you took, and did you pass them?
But
Alison Monahan (25:28):
even then, we've hired people who didn't pass the bar the
Lee Burgess (25:30):
first time.
Yes, because they had great
lessons
Alison Monahan (25:31):
learned.
We have people for us who failed the bar.
Yes,
Lee Burgess (25:33):
because they have great lessons learned, and
there are all sorts of things.
So, it's really just, in the end, a blipon your career, but it does feel so big.
So, if you need to create some mindfulnesspractices, to try and walk in nature,
to do whatever coping mechanisms thatwork for you to keep it in its place,
(25:55):
I think that's really important.
And you also have to make sure thatthe anxiety from other things happening
in the world doesn't also spiralin and make it bigger than it is.
This is one thing that you can control.
Alison Monahan (26:07):
Right.
Yeah, no, I think that's the thing.
It's like, yes, it's important.
But it's also not that important,which is a fine balance to strike.
Lee Burgess (26:16):
Yeah.
The last tip we're going to focuson today is the importance of
the mental game, which is a lot.
Alison Monahan (26:27):
This is, like we said, a very stressful, hard thing to do.
A lot of people are struggling with somemental health issues already, particularly
things around anxiety, maybe you'regetting accommodations for various things.
There's a lot going onfor a lot of people.
And I think having support, and alsojust having a strategy for how you're
going to handle the ups and downsof this process, because it's never
(26:50):
going to be completely smooth, whetherwe're talking about the day of, or
we're talking about the preparation.
You might get to the test and the firstessay you look at is something that
you're like, "Oh my gosh, that wasexactly what I was hoping not to see."
And there it is.
Lee Burgess (27:05):
There it is.
And you still have to keep going.
You can't stop.
Alison Monahan (27:08):
You've got to do something with it.
And I think that's going to be achallenge for people who are taking
California, because they're going toget one at a time, and if it is one
where you're just like, "Oh my gosh..."
Lee Burgess (27:17):
You have to sit with it for all 60
Alison Monahan (27:19):
minutes.
You've got to sit there on camera for 60minutes and try to come up with something.
Lee Burgess (27:24):
Yeah.
I also think that you look aroundat other hard things that people do.
I thought about this a lot when Iwas watching the Olympics, because
there's a lot of discussion now aboutperformance coaches and the greats are
using therapists and things like that.
And what do you thinkthey're talking about?
They're talking aboutfailure and fear of failure.
And of course they have pressureand media and all of that stuff.
(27:47):
But a lot of it is, how do they staypresent and not think of the next
thing or worry about the consequences?
Everybody acknowledges that if the stakesare high, that this is very important.
So if you're struggling with yourmental game, you want to figure out
what resources you can tap into, becauseif you walk into the room and feel the
(28:09):
panic rising and have your mind go blank,which is totally possible, happens to
people in the room all the time - it'sa fight or flight response, it's nothing
special to you if your mind and bodythink you're being chased by a lion, and
so all the oxygen gets deprived from yourbrain to go to other essential organs.
So, of course you cannot think.
But you can't write an essay in that way.
(28:29):
You can't do it.
You've got to have a wayto get yourself out of it.
Alison Monahan (28:32):
Right.
And you need to have actually plannedthat out and practiced it, because when
your brain goes blank from test anxiety,you have to do something like a breathing
exercise to actually get it back online.
And if you're just sitting therepanicking, being like, "Oh my gosh, oh
my gosh, oh my gosh" - that can veryeasily spiral and you might end up wasting
half the time and never write anything.
(28:53):
These are the things that can reallyderail your exam day, so these are things
you have to have worked on beforehand.
And there are tons of differentoptions, but you need to find something
that you can consistently go to.
Going back to the Buddhists, theytalk about training as a warrior.
And they're not talking about going outto shoot people; they're talking about
training your mind so that when you'rein a situation that's very stressful,
(29:18):
that training is almost habitual.
Lee Burgess (29:22):
Yes.
Now I can talk about cold plunging,which I do love to talk about.
Alison Monahan (29:27):
How many of these Huberman videos have you been watching, Lee?
I feel like that's he'd be into.
Lee Burgess (29:31):
He is into that, but that's not why I'm into it.
But the interesting thing aboutcold plunging is that they
say it's great for anxiety andcontrolling your dopamine levels.
Yes, and all of that stuff.
I love that book.
Anyway, but one of the thingsthat's interesting is if you do
it semi regularly, which I nowdo because that's the point of my
(29:51):
life I'm at, where I cold plunge.
But it is amazing when you practicecalming your nervous system,
because the thing is, it initiatesa fight or flight response.
Your body does not want you togo in; it is very cold in there.
But you have to be uncomfortableand tell your mind that you are
safe and that it is fine and thatyou're going to do it anyway.
(30:12):
And there's a small period oftime where you feel the anxiety,
and then you feel it dissipate.
It is a very powerful thing.
We can create other situations,maybe without 50-degree water,
where you can do that as well.
But it is this idea that the more youdo it, the more used to it you are.
And then that fight or flight responsedoesn't get as big, because your
(30:33):
body is used to calming itself down.
So, when you sit down to do this veryimportant practice that makes you
uncomfortable, that might be anxietyinducing - yes, you might feel the
adrenaline start to pump, even if it'sjust to sit down and do a practice
question, you then have to say, "Well,this is my opportunity to take those
deep breaths and calm my nervous systemdown, so I can do it in the exam room",
(30:54):
since there's no cold plunge at the bar.
Alison Monahan (30:57):
Yeah.
I remember when I was doing my openwater scuba certification, we did it
in Monterey Bay in like a 7mm wetsuit.
And most people were actually indrysuits, but they wouldn't let us
do that, because it wasn't in therules of how you got certified.
And I remember going underwater andbasically having a physical panic attack
on the body, because it was so cold.
And I'd never been in a wetsuitbefore, I didn't know that
(31:19):
of course, it has to warm up.
For a minute, you're just literallyin this freezing cold water, and
your body is just like, "I've got toget out of here." And one girl did.
She went up and she was like, "Thisis not for me." But I remember sitting
on the bottom and I was negotiatingwith myself like, "Okay, this is
really unpleasant, you want to leave.
Why don't you just try to waitlike five minutes, see how it
goes?" And then I started lookingaround, and then it was great. I
(31:42):
was like, "Wow, this is beautiful.
I'm like in the aquarium, butit's real life." And I was fine.
But I remember that sensationof like, "I can't do this."
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (31:51):
What's also interesting is, I bet if you're worried about this mental
game piece of the bar, you can go throughyour life and say, "What other hard things
have I done? What situations have I beenin where that panic has set in?" I think
for most people, we can come up witha few different scenarios of where you
literally felt this physical response topanic, and then how did you get out of it?
(32:13):
How did you work through it?
How did you get to the other side?
And take those lessons.
I think sometimes we let these testssit by themselves, like they're
their own thing that don't relateto any other things in life, when
a lot of these are life skills.
Life is hard, and you end updoing a lot of really hard things.
Sometimes I'll be sitting in mycar, not wanting to do the next hard
(32:35):
thing I have to do, and I will takea few minutes to prepare myself to do
the hard thing that I don't want to
Alison Monahan (32:41):
do.
Oh yeah.
Like take all those breaths, like,"Okay, I'm just going to sit, I'm going
to center myself before I have thisconversation." And then you go do it.
Lee Burgess (32:49):
Yeah.
And so, you have some ofthese skills as life skills.
And if you don't have theseskills, they're great life skills.
So
This
Alison Monahan (32:57):
is great time to start
Lee Burgess (32:59):
developing them.
Develop them, because lifedoesn't really get much easier.
Alison Monahan (33:04):
Fair.
I mean, if you're going to be a lawyer,there are going to be moments where
you're like, "Oh my gosh, I feel sickabout what I'm having to step into.
I'm not qualified for this." Whateverstoryline you've got going on, but I
definitely remember as a lawyer justbeing like, "What? I'm so over my head
right now." And I still have to go in.
Imposter
Lee Burgess (33:21):
syndrome, you name it.
Alison Monahan (33:22):
I still have to go take this deposition, even though I
literally have no idea what I'm doing.
Lee Burgess (33:27):
Yeah.
Not to say that it makes it easy.
None of it makes it easy.
But it allows you to do it withoutthat big paralyzing response.
This is all learned stuff.
Most of us are not
hardwired to find this easy.
People who are Type A perfectionists,I think especially, we put so
much pressure on ourselves.
And a lot of people in law schoolhave that personality structure.
(33:51):
So, we then have to do theextra work to make sure that we
cannot let those tendencies justreally drive us into the ground.
It's not worth it, because youcan't show up as your best self.
All you're trying to do is show up asa pretty good version of yourself to
give yourself the best shot at passing.
That's really what this game is.
Alison Monahan (34:09):
I'll bring it back to skiing.
So I'm preparing for a ski exam.
And part of what they do is they makeyou ski bumps, which I don't like
skiing bumps, but the reason somebodytold me they make you do it is because
that's where people fall apart.
So they're trying to see basicallywhen we put you on something that is
uncomfortable, do you have the habitsin place sufficiently that you can
(34:31):
get through it in a reasonable manner?
Nobody's expecting perfection, but areyou going to totally fall apart, or are
you going to get it 80% and pass the exam?
That's what we're kind of looking for.
No one's going to perform theirabsolute best on test day, because
you're under a lot of stress.
Lee Burgess (34:46):
Yeah.
And you don't want that stress tobe the driver of your performance.
Alison Monahan (34:53):
Yeah, you have to find ways for it not to be debilitating.
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (34:58):
These are all learned skills.
So, you don't have tocold plunge or ski bumps.
You can just do hard things.
There are plenty of hard thingsthat you have to do in your life.
But I think just being aware of this,as you do anything you don't want to do.
I don't like to go to the dentist.
I have to sit and psych myselfup to go to the dentist.
Alison Monahan (35:16):
I don't know, I'm one of those people, I'm like, yeah, it's
Lee Burgess (35:17):
not pleasant.
I know you dentist.
Doesn't
Alison Monahan (35:18):
really bother me.
I don't like the dentist, nobody likesthe dentist, but it's not my stress point.
I have other stresspoints, we all have them.
Lee Burgess (35:24):
We all have them.
But I think you can use thosestress points as a practice.
And if you just start to developthis practice, it will serve
you as a lawyer, because as yousaid, law jobs are stressful.
Even the ones that aren't the moststressful are still really stressful.
And you're dealing with folks whotypically are in extreme situations.
So, even if your stress is manageable, youmight be in a meeting with someone whose
(35:47):
stress is off the roof, over the roof?
Alison Monahan (35:50):
Off the charts.
Lee Burgess (35:51):
the charts.
I'm just mixing all my metaphors today.
But you're going to need to hold enoughspace to hold somebody else's anxiety too.
So, use this as a practice for beingjust the best lawyer you can be.
Alison Monahan (36:04):
So, the bar exam is a metaphor for life.
Lee Burgess (36:07):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you're still in law school, youmight also like to check out our popular
Law School Toolbox podcast as well.
If you have any questions or comments,please don't hesitate to reach out to
myself or Alison at lee@barexamtoolbox.comor alison@barexamtoolbox.com.
(36:31):
Or you can always contact us via ourwebsite contact form at BarExamToolbox.
com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
Welcome to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast.
Today we are excited to celebrateour 300th episode with our top
five tips for passing the bar exam.
Your Bar Exam Toolbox hosts are AlisonMonaghan and Lee Burgess, that's me.
We're here to demystify the barexam experience, so you can study
effectively, stay sane, and hopefullypass and move on with your life.
We're the co-creators of the Law SchoolToolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the
(00:24):
career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs TheGirl's Guide to Law School.
If you enjoy the show, please leavea review on your favorite listening
app, and check out our sister podcast,the Law School Toolbox podcast.
If you have any questions, don'thesitate to reach out to us.
You can reach us via thecontact form on BarExamToolbox.
com, and we'd love to hear from you.
And with that, let's get started.
Alison Monahan (00:52):
Welcome back!
Today, we're excited to celebrateour 300th episode with our top
five tips for passing the bar exam.
Alright, let's see.
What's our number one tip?
Lee Burgess (01:04):
If anyone listens to the podcast regularly,
this should not be a surprise.
It is practice, practice,and then do more practice.
Yet, in all the years - and we've nowbeen doing this for quite a few years we
still talk to students who don't practicethe first time they sit for the bar.
Alison Monahan (01:20):
Yeah.
I think everybody has the best intentions,but the reality is, it's easy to get
sucked into doing other things thatmaybe aren't quite as stressful as
sitting down and actually trying towrite out a full exam answer, doing
a whole PT. There's so much to dothat I can see people are just like,
"Well, I've got to learn all this law.
I mean, that's my focus, right?
I've just got to learn the law.
(01:41):
I've got to learn the law.
If I know the law, I'll pass the exam."Unfortunately, that doesn't work,
Lee Burgess (01:44):
usually.
No, because you can have wrong lawand still get quite a few points.
That is really the thing that I thinkgets lost, is this idea that what
they're really the most focused on isthe analysis piece, and the only way you
can practice analysis is by doing hypos.
Alison Monahan (02:02):
Right.
And I think it's also critical thatyou do what you actually have to do.
So I talk often to people who say,"Well, I outlined a lot of answers."
And it's like, "Okay, well, that'ssort of step one in the process.
But did you actually sitdown and write them out?
Did you do that in a closed-book scenario?
Did you do that under timed conditions?"And generally, the answer is "no".
Lee Burgess (02:23):
Yeah.
I've also gotten a lot of "I read themodel answers", which also doesn't count.
Alison Monahan (02:29):
Right.
I mean, we're not saying theseare terrible things to do.
It's just maybe not the best thingand the most efficient way that you
could be preparing for this test.
And that's the problem, isyou don't have unlimited time.
Lee Burgess (02:41):
And we know from research around learning that asking yourself
to recall things and making mistakesis one of the ways that we learn.
You can learn that by watchingchildren learn, you can learn
that by trying to learn many ofthe other things we do in life.
But that feeling of being uncomfortableis part of the process, and because you're
(03:02):
uncomfortable, you're going to retain it.
So, I think it's so important forfolks to remember that doing a practice
question, getting it wrong, going back andreviewing it, and maybe rewriting it, is
likely going to stick in your brain morethan just passively reading an outline.
Right.
Alison Monahan (03:19):
Or on the MBE sometimes people say, "Well, I just read the answer
choices and I read their explanations.And the one they had sounded right to
me." And it's like, okay, that's notexactly what we're talking about here.
It's like, the person who wrote thoseanswer choices already knew the answer.
So, you need to try toactually struggle through.
As you know, I relate everythingin my life now to skiing, because
(03:42):
that's what I do every day.
But practice - really fundamental.
If you could learn to ski by watchingYouTube, I as a ski instructor
would not have a job to do.
The reality is, you can get a tip, andthat's great and maybe something to go out
and think about and work on and practice.
But you have to literally goout and do it, and you have
(04:02):
to evaluate how it worked.
And then what I'm finding interestinglately - I was thinking about this today
so, a couple of days ago, I had somebodyshow up and give me this great tip that
really changed my skiing for like a day.
And I've been trying to practice it eversince and really ingrain it in my head.
And the funny part is, the moreyou do that, almost the more
awkward and weird it all gets.
(04:24):
And I'm beginning to think that mightbe part of the learning process.
Lee Burgess (04:27):
Yeah.
I think that's a really interesting point.
I was also thinking about thiswhile playing tennis today.
So we're now a sporting podcast.
But I play tennis, and I was discussingwith my coach why it is easier for me
to play somebody who's better than Iam than it is for me to play somebody
(04:47):
who is worse, whatever that means,but is not as highly ranked as I am.
And not like I'm rankedlike I'm at the U.S. Open.
We're talking aboutcommunity leagues and stuff.
Anyway, for those who don't play tennis,you have a number assigned to how good
you are as a tennis player, even ifyou're not a really good tennis player.
Alison Monahan (05:04):
ha, Right, so that people could play about the same
Lee Burgess (05:06):
level.
Right, exactly.
But I can easily play upand I struggle to play down.
And one of the things that I foundinteresting as I was talking to my
coach about this, was, he was discussinghow when you are playing kind of down,
you have to be in charge of the game.
They're giving you nothing to play off of.
And how much harder that isthan if a coach is hitting
(05:27):
to you, or somebody better.
You're getting their pace, you're gettingtheir ball placement, their game maybe
makes more sense to you, because they'renot just popping it back over the court,
and then you have to do something with it.
And I think that idea of really havingto be the driver, really having to rely
on yourself to work with this materialand make something out of it, is
(05:48):
something that we oftentimes don't do.
That is harder for me.
It is harder for me to play withsomeone who gives me nothing.
That makes me come up with it all myself.
Alison Monahan (05:58):
No, for sure, that was always the case.
I played high school tennisand it was the same thing.
I would go out and beatlike the number one seed
on the other team.
And people were like, "Ohmy gosh, you're great".
And then I would go lose tolike the worst person on a
Lee Burgess (06:09):
different team.
I know.
Alison Monahan (06:09):
Drives
me
Lee Burgess (06:10):
Partly
Alison Monahan (06:10):
for me was, I got bored and I just wasn't focused.
But yeah, there is something to that.
And I was thinking about this aswell, what you were just saying - I
think it's this weird balance withpractice of trusting yourself and your
instincts, but also taking feedback.
I think it's the Buddhists who have thisphrase of, when the student is ready, the
teacher appears, or something like that.
(06:32):
Because with skiing, there are things thatI've heard for years, and then suddenly
one day it clicks, and I understandwhat they meant by it all those days.
But then I have to kind oftake it and make it my own.
And so, with the practice it's like,you kind of got to get some feedback
on how you're doing, but then at somepoint you have to internalize that
because you have to be evaluatingon the exam, "Am I performing to
(06:56):
the level I need to in real time?"
Lee Burgess (06:58):
Yeah.
I think what you can really takefrom our lessons from sporting...
Alison Monahan (07:03):
So we're so sporty.
Lee Burgess (07:05):
We're so sporty, oh my goodness.
If you hung out with us in person...
Alison Monahan (07:09):
We're not.
We're really not.
Lee Burgess (07:10):
...would be like, "You're really that sporty? What?" But, no.
But there are things thatyou can learn from sports.
One is, it keeps us in the growth mindset,which is, I think, one of the reasons you
and I both like doing stuff like this.
I also ski; we ski together.
But it's like you're challengingyourself constantly, right?
It's not something youcan do on autopilot.
That's one of the things I likeabout sports, you have to be engaged.
(07:33):
If I don't pay attention when I'mplaying tennis, I literally can't play.
Same thing with skiing - if you don'twant to hurt yourself, you have to
pay attention to what you're doing.
And I think that presence that comesfrom that and this awareness of the
struggle and how you're changingyour body or how you're learning and
taking in feedback - those lessons areoften easier learned doing something
(07:54):
physical than doing something in anacademic setting like this, where it's
like, the practice is the same stuff.
It's going down the ski slope, it'splaying the match and not doing well,
and then trying to go to your coachor your teacher and say, "Why didn't
that go well?" And then internalizingtheir feedback and trying again.
We know in all these otherparts of our lives that to get
(08:14):
better, you have to practice.
Nobody would tell me that I could get abetter tennis game by not playing tennis.
Or that I could be abetter skier by not skiing.
Alison Monahan (08:22):
No.
Unfortunately, watching theAustralian Open is probably not
going to impact your tennis game
Lee Burgess (08:26):
all that much.
No.
Even as much as I enjoy it, it doesnot influence my tennis game that much.
Although you can say, "Oh, that wasquite impressive." But yeah, that's
not the same as putting yourself ina position to have to do it yourself.
So, you know these lessons.
If you're studying for the bar, thereis something you do in your life
that has taught you this lesson.
(08:46):
And you need to figure out how to applyit to the bar and realize that this
practice is just like all the otherpractice in all the other things that
you do in your life, that maybe youforce yourself to do to get better.
For some reason, this academic oneseems to be really challenging.
Alison Monahan (09:04):
Yeah.
And I think just accepting thatthe practice is the struggle,
which is kind of the point of this.
And that's what's laying down thedifferent neural pathways in your brain,
so that hopefully by the time you getto the exam, some of this is a habit.
And when you get under stress, youfall back usually on habitual patterns.
So you want to have something to fall backon of like, "Okay, I know this is how I
do my pre-writing outline. I'm just goingto do it the same way I always do it."
(09:28):
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (09:30):
Our next tip for bar exam success is, organize your
life and have a day of plans.
So it's like a two-part tip,but it's an important one.
Alison Monahan (09:39):
Yeah, I'd say this is kind of the executive
functioning piece of the test, andso many people really struggle.
And some of this is out of your control.
I mean, things happen.
We're recording thisafter the fires in LA.
We know people whose housesburned down and they're supposed
to be studying for the bar.
That is out of your control.
However, there are other thingsthat are within your control.
(10:00):
And some of this is about timing.
Is this really the best timefor you to be studying for,
preparing for taking this exam?
And if the answer to that is "no",then there's another time for it.
Lee Burgess (10:11):
Yeah.
And I think that's suchan important question.
We have talked to so many people whofailed, and when you start really
asking them what happened, somethings, can be tragedies, right?
They lost a family member, orsomebody got critically ill.
But there's a lot of stuff that we hearthat's like, "Well, I moved", "I got
married", "I went on a two-week vacation."You can plan around all those things.
(10:31):
I'm not saying youshould move your wedding.
If you want to get married, go forit, but maybe don't also study for
the bar while you're getting married.
That might not be thebest use of your time.
If you're a foreign-trained attorneyand you're working full-time and you
have mountains of law to learn becauseyou didn't go to a U.S. law school,
you're not going to have enough hours.
You need to plan your life to allowyourself a longer time to study.
(10:54):
I also think that resources arereally important to look at.
If you need additional help, if you needa tutor, if you need a different bar
provider, whatever it might be, sometimesit's great to take a break and make
money, and then come back and feel likeyou're in a better financial situation.
We've seen all sorts ofsuccess with people developing
(11:14):
plans and executing them.
I think where we see it fall apartis when there's no plan, and then
life just comes at you, and you'regetting ping ponged around by it.
If those things are in yourcontrol, you definitely want to do
something to avoid that reality.
Alison Monahan (11:29):
Yeah.
Or their plan is, "I'm going to workfull-time and then study five hours a
night, every night, plus all weekend."And it's like, that's not realistic.
No one can do that.
If that's really your plan,that is not a good plan.
Lee Burgess (11:43):
Diminishing returns.
I was listening to a Huberman podcast.
I'm not like a huge Huberman...because they're like two hours plus.
Anyway, he does have somegood guests on there.
But somebody did sendme one of his podcasts.
And then I was listening to anotherone because it started going
through and then I'm in the carand I can't change the podcast.
You know how it goes.
Alison Monahan (12:02):
It's what they're banking on.
Lee Burgess (12:03):
I know.
But he was talking about hisschedule, because he's kind of a life
biohacker, life hack type person.
But he was talking about his ownschedule and how he only believes
he can work so many hours a day.
And he was talking about how like 90minutes in the morning are his most
productive time, and then he hastime that's creative time, and time
where he can do more mundane tasks.
But even he was talking abouthow he maxes out on the number
(12:26):
of hours that he can work.
And this is somebody whothis is his whole deal.
Alison Monahan (12:32):
Yeah, his whole jam
Lee Burgess (12:33):
is working.
His whole jam is optimizinglife in all ways.
Not to say that he has it figuredout, but that's what he's focused
on, is optimization, right?
And so he was talking aboutlearning and being efficient, and
doing different kinds of work.
And it did make me think about peoplestudying for the bar, because so often
we try and have this conversation ofhow many hours can you really do this?
(12:53):
What is the best time of day for you tomemorize information versus do practice?
And oftentimes, for most people,it's not 10:00 o'clock at night.
But a lot of people like to thinkit's 10:00 o'clock at night.
And there are very few people, few andfar between, for whom they're going to
do their best learning late at night.
And so you really have to create aschedule that's going to give you
(13:15):
returns on the time investment, oryou're just on the fast train to burnout.
Alison Monahan (13:20):
Yeah, exactly.
And in addition to setting up thatschedule, you've also got to make sure
everything day of is ready to go, becausethat's always really disappointing for
people, and when we hear these storiesabout something going wrong on the day
of oops, you forgot to book your hotelroom, or it was far away, or your laptop
(13:40):
failed, you didn't know how to get to thetesting center, you were late to the test.
I mean, there are allthese things that happen.
We've heard a ton of different things.
And you just don't want that to happento you; you've worked hard for this.
Just go ahead and close that loop onthe last little bit of it and make
sure you show up early with everythingyou need, you've read the rules.
If you're in California now, thereare all these new rules about things.
(14:04):
You want to make sure that you aregoing to be compliant, because the bar
does not give people a lot of leeway.
Lee Burgess (14:09):
No.
There are too many people and it's just,they have to be too rigid, right or wrong.
If you need something special, youmust apply for accommodations for it.
Even if you're not sure it's a specialaccommodation, you need to apply for it.
And this includes your jurisdiction hasrules about a pillow that you could bring
for your back, or a type of keyboard,or a mouse, or all sorts of things.
(14:35):
You need to read those rules and go tothe bar and say, if you need one of these
things, it's a special accommodation.
You don't want to show up on test daywith your ergonomic keyboard, and have
them, one, even threaten to give yousome sort of ethical violation, which
nobody wants, or two, just create dramawhen everybody's already so charged
and on edge, and all of that stuff.
(14:57):
And I was thinking about thetraffic and things like that.
There was just another fire off of I-5yesterday, and they just closed I-5.
You could be somewhere wherethey could just close a freeway.
I mean, things happen.
Alison Monahan (15:12):
Yeah.
I think you want to make surethat you've minimized as many
possible problems as you can.
Lee Burgess (15:17):
Yes.
Alison Monahan (15:18):
Alright.
Well, next up we have our thirdtip - focusing on active learning.
Lee Burgess (15:26):
Oh, yes.
This is something else if youlisten to the podcast that you
should be very familiar with.
But it goes back to what we weretalking about with the practice, is
that the only way to make the magichappen is to get uncomfortable and
force yourself to do hard things.
And we all get sucked intopassively doing things.
(15:49):
I always think about these bar lectureswhenever I'm in my car listening to
a podcast or an audiobook and thenrealize I have no idea what they're
talking about, because my brainhas just gone off somewhere else.
I'm thinking about my to-dolist or that I need to text
somebody or call somebody back.
And then you realize minutes havegone by and you have no clue.
I've been listening, in theory, butit didn't internalize into my brain.
(16:13):
And we know from data that passivelistening is not the most effective way
for most people to retain information.
It's less effective than reading.
And so, it's just a hard thing tosay that you're going to accept, is
that all these bar providers thatgive you hours and hours of lectures
that they just want you to watch arenot going to get you to your goals.
Alison Monahan (16:35):
Right.
Didn't we see that study, that peoplewho watch something, they feel better
about the amount of informationthey've retained, but if you actually
test them on it, they're way worse.
I find that fascinating.
It
Lee Burgess (16:46):
was in the Adam Grant book that I read last year
as an audio book, I'll be honest.
But then I did have a physical copyand I went back and re-read it so
I could talk about it with somesort of authority on the podcast.
Alison Monahan (16:57):
Yeah, I found that so interesting.
It does then explain why people areso reluctant to give up those videos.
Yes,
Lee Burgess (17:05):
I know.
And folks are shocked when wemake the suggestion that they
should not spend their time.
Alison Monahan (17:11):
They should just stop.
Lee Burgess (17:12):
They should stop.
They're like,
"Alison Monahan: But I paid for it."
I It's like,
"Alison Monahan: That's great.
Do you want to take the examagain, or do you want to pass?"
Right.
Or if you've done it once,why would you do it again?
That's also my favorite.
It's like, it didn't work the first time.
And honestly, folks, I took oneof those commercial courses.
It didn't really work forme the first time either.
(17:33):
I aborted and went back to studyingthe way that I knew I got good grades
in law school, because I realizedthat I was putting in all of these
hours and I didn't know anything.
Alison Monahan (17:46):
Right.
No, I think that's the thing.
People walk away and they're like,"I actually did not A, understand,
or B, retain any of that information.
I think it's one thing if it'sa class you've never taken,
you have no introduction to.
Fine, watch a few hours of videos.
But that's it.
I don't know why people are sittingand watching hours of Contracts
and Torts and things like that.
I'm like, "You took this whole class."Unless you're a foreign-trained
(18:09):
attorney; that's different.
Lee Burgess (18:10):
Right.
Alison Monahan (18:10):
But if you did a JD, you took a lot of these classes.
I don't think theycompletely left your brain.
Lee Burgess (18:15):
No.
Or that you couldn't read an outlineand remember some of this law.
Alison Monahan (18:21):
Look at an outline, do some open-book
questions, and start applying it.
It doesn't have to gostraight to closed-book.
Lee Burgess (18:28):
Yeah.
The other thing I think that getslost in this discussion of active
learning is incremental gains.
This is something I talk to mychildren about - and myself - but I
also talk to my children about it.
Because none of us reallylike incremental gains.
Nobody likes just small victories,because they don't really feel like
you're getting to where you want to go.
We all want to see reallylarge positive gains.
(18:52):
But the reality is, the science doesn'treally back us up on that front.
Tiny habits and spaced repetition,which is something we've talked about
a lot on the podcast is this idea thatif you do a little bit every day, it
will all compound like interest andget bigger, and you will learn more.
And I think that when the amount oflaw that you need to learn feels so
(19:17):
big, it is very hard to say, "I'mgoing to take it in small chunks", but
that is exactly what you need to do.
And I think that's why we are passionatethat students look at spaced repetition,
that they look at the SmartBarPrepoutlines, they look at a manageable
amount of information and say, "I'mgoing to master this manageable amount
of information by chipping away atit every day. And I'm not going to
(19:40):
memorize the entire Contracts outlinetoday, because that is impractical."
Most of us won't be able to do it.
It's just the reality, and that's okay.
Alison Monahan (19:49):
Yeah, 100%.
I think everybody's looking fora magic wand that they can wave
that's going to be like, "Oh, thisis going to guarantee that I pass.
This is the one magic outline."I think there are even some
outlines called "magic outlines".
They're not magic.
I think it is this slow, chipping awayprocess, and there may be backsliding.
There may be days, like we'vetalked about, where things aren't
(20:10):
going well, and you just kind ofhave to keep plowing ahead with it.
I was going to say "trust the process",but I think that's how people sometimes
get in trouble, is they do trust theseprocesses that they're told are going
to work, but they're not criticallyevaluating if they're actually
working for the way that they learnor for the time they have available.
And I think unfortunate reality is,for a lot of people, they don't work.
Lee Burgess (20:32):
Yeah.
And you can set up thoseassessments for yourself.
Alison Monahan (20:37):
You
should be testing yourself.
You should
Lee Burgess (20:38):
be testing yourself.
I often, when I get on the phone withsomeone and we're talking about the law,
and we'll oftentimes be arguing abouthow they're supposed to be studying
for the exam, and I'll say, "Great.At the end of a..." How many hours
are some of these Evidence lectures?
It's eight hours; I mean,an insane amount of time.
"Can you list off all of the hearsayexceptions and list the rules
(21:02):
for each of them with elements?
Can you?" And most people arelike, "Nope." And I'm like,
"Well, that's a problem, becausethat's what you need for the bar."
Alison Monahan (21:13):
If you asked me that information, I'd be like,
"Where are my SmartBarPrep outlines?
Here you go.
Here are the 15 exceptions.
Would you like me to read them to you?"
Lee Burgess (21:20):
And there was a time when I could rattle them all off.
Now I could probably compile them,because I still know all of them.
But there was a time when I hada mnemonic and I had a list and
I could rattle them all off.
And I had a rule statement for each ofthem, and I had them memorized cold.
And that is what you need to know.
Those are the types of assessmentsyou can do for yourself.
If you're doing this morevideo-based approach, this
(21:43):
passive learning, quiz yourself.
Say, "Lee told me to list all of thehearsay exceptions and all of the
rules, and I couldn't, and that'sa problem." Well, there you go.
Alison Monahan (21:53):
Yeah.
No, I think quizzing yourself consistentlyis a really great way of doing it,
because again, when you find outyou got something wrong, that's what
helps your brain remember it later.
Lee Burgess (22:01):
Yep.
So, in a way, you should almostbe able to sit down and write
what's in a SmartBarPrep outline,by hand, out of your head.
I know that sounds very overwhelming, butnot if you do it incrementally every day.
Alison Monahan (22:13):
Well, and you could start with a green.
Start with the frequently tested rules.
That's like a third of it.
Lee Burgess (22:18):
Yep.
So, tiny things, every day.
Most people study for thebar for, what, 10 weeks?
Eight to 10 weeks?
Think about how many days that is.
You think about learning achunk of material, one page of
material over all of those days?
That is not that much material.
It is a reasonable amount of workif you thoughtfully do it every day.
Alison Monahan (22:39):
Yeah.
If anyone's not familiar withspace repetition, go listen to
those podcasts with Gabe Teninbaum.
He's amazing.
He talks about the science behind it.
It's very convincing.
Ten minutes a day - that's all you need.
You'll have 90% of the information in yourhead at the end of like eight to 10 weeks.
Lee Burgess (22:54):
Yeah, it's wild.
Next up on our top tips is (22:57):
Don't give the bar too much power.
It's important, but itis not life or death.
I feel like we have this conversationwith both our current students and
prospective students a lot, because thistest can really take on a life of its own.
Alison Monahan (23:15):
Yeah.
And I think this is a tricky one because,yes, the test is important, we get that.
It's very stressful.
It's a hard thing.
It's potentially preventing peoplefrom supporting themselves and
paying back their student loans.
Some people may have a job that's at risk.
There are really big thingsriding on this test, I get that.
However, at the same time, I don'tthink focusing on those things that are
(23:36):
riding on you passing or not passingis actually going to help you pass.
Lee Burgess (23:41):
Yeah.
In the end, it's still a test.
It's an important test withconsequences, but it's still a test.
You have taken lots oftests over the years.
And the question
Alison Monahan (23:49):
on the test is, how do you accumulate points?
And when you look at it like that, it'slike, "Okay, well, let's actually figure
out what pieces I might be able to getmore points on. How can I get more points
when I'm not getting points?" Everybody'sbetter and worse at certain things.
It's like, what do you want to focus on?
The MBE has seven topic areasthat's fewer than the essays.
Do you want to put moretime and energy there?
(24:11):
I'm not telling you what to do.
I'm just saying, this is howI would analyze the situation.
Lee Burgess (24:15):
Yeah, 100%.
And when I look at somebody's scores, Ioften approach it from that point of like,
where are we going to find some cushion?
Where are your strength areas, andhow can we collect more points there?
You can be strategic aboutthis test; it is a game.
You'd still have to do all the heavylifting that we've been talking about, but
(24:35):
it is important to keep it in its place.
And I think where folks reallyfind that it becomes impossible,
or almost that they are frozen andcan't move forward is when they just
feel that the stakes are too high.
I think back in the early days of us doingthis work, we have a really great podcast.
(24:56):
Pre-podcast.
This was a blog post.
This is how long this has beenaround, a blog, when we had
a blog that was very popular.
But the blog post was like "The QuestionNo one Asked Me", and it was basically
someone who had failed the bar once,was shocked that out in the real world
when she was practicing law, no one hadany idea that she ever failed the bar.
(25:16):
Nobody cared.
Nobody looked at when she passed.
The only people who I think really lookat those sorts of dates are people like
us, when we hire, because we ask how manybars you took, and did you pass them?
But
Alison Monahan (25:28):
even then, we've hired people who didn't pass the bar the
Lee Burgess (25:30):
first time.
Yes, because they had great
lessons
Alison Monahan (25:31):
learned.
We have people for us who failed the bar.
Yes,
Lee Burgess (25:33):
because they have great lessons learned, and
there are all sorts of things.
So, it's really just, in the end, a blipon your career, but it does feel so big.
So, if you need to create some mindfulnesspractices, to try and walk in nature,
to do whatever coping mechanisms thatwork for you to keep it in its place,
(25:55):
I think that's really important.
And you also have to make sure thatthe anxiety from other things happening
in the world doesn't also spiralin and make it bigger than it is.
This is one thing that you can control.
Alison Monahan (26:07):
Right.
Yeah, no, I think that's the thing.
It's like, yes, it's important.
But it's also not that important,which is a fine balance to strike.
Lee Burgess (26:16):
Yeah.
The last tip we're going to focuson today is the importance of
the mental game, which is a lot.
Alison Monahan (26:27):
This is, like we said, a very stressful, hard thing to do.
A lot of people are struggling with somemental health issues already, particularly
things around anxiety, maybe you'regetting accommodations for various things.
There's a lot going onfor a lot of people.
And I think having support, and alsojust having a strategy for how you're
going to handle the ups and downsof this process, because it's never
(26:50):
going to be completely smooth, whetherwe're talking about the day of, or
we're talking about the preparation.
You might get to the test and the firstessay you look at is something that
you're like, "Oh my gosh, that wasexactly what I was hoping not to see."
And there it is.
Lee Burgess (27:05):
There it is.
And you still have to keep going.
You can't stop.
Alison Monahan (27:08):
You've got to do something with it.
And I think that's going to be achallenge for people who are taking
California, because they're going toget one at a time, and if it is one
where you're just like, "Oh my gosh..."
Lee Burgess (27:17):
You have to sit with it for all 60
Alison Monahan (27:19):
minutes.
You've got to sit there on camera for 60minutes and try to come up with something.
Lee Burgess (27:24):
Yeah.
I also think that you look aroundat other hard things that people do.
I thought about this a lot when Iwas watching the Olympics, because
there's a lot of discussion now aboutperformance coaches and the greats are
using therapists and things like that.
And what do you thinkthey're talking about?
They're talking aboutfailure and fear of failure.
And of course they have pressureand media and all of that stuff.
(27:47):
But a lot of it is, how do they staypresent and not think of the next
thing or worry about the consequences?
Everybody acknowledges that if the stakesare high, that this is very important.
So if you're struggling with yourmental game, you want to figure out
what resources you can tap into, becauseif you walk into the room and feel the
(28:09):
panic rising and have your mind go blank,which is totally possible, happens to
people in the room all the time - it'sa fight or flight response, it's nothing
special to you if your mind and bodythink you're being chased by a lion, and
so all the oxygen gets deprived from yourbrain to go to other essential organs.
So, of course you cannot think.
But you can't write an essay in that way.
(28:29):
You can't do it.
You've got to have a wayto get yourself out of it.
Alison Monahan (28:32):
Right.
And you need to have actually plannedthat out and practiced it, because when
your brain goes blank from test anxiety,you have to do something like a breathing
exercise to actually get it back online.
And if you're just sitting therepanicking, being like, "Oh my gosh, oh
my gosh, oh my gosh" - that can veryeasily spiral and you might end up wasting
half the time and never write anything.
(28:53):
These are the things that can reallyderail your exam day, so these are things
you have to have worked on beforehand.
And there are tons of differentoptions, but you need to find something
that you can consistently go to.
Going back to the Buddhists, theytalk about training as a warrior.
And they're not talking about going outto shoot people; they're talking about
training your mind so that when you'rein a situation that's very stressful,
(29:18):
that training is almost habitual.
Lee Burgess (29:22):
Yes.
Now I can talk about cold plunging,which I do love to talk about.
Alison Monahan (29:27):
How many of these Huberman videos have you been watching, Lee?
I feel like that's he'd be into.
Lee Burgess (29:31):
He is into that, but that's not why I'm into it.
But the interesting thing aboutcold plunging is that they
say it's great for anxiety andcontrolling your dopamine levels.
Yes, and all of that stuff.
I love that book.
Anyway, but one of the thingsthat's interesting is if you do
it semi regularly, which I nowdo because that's the point of my
(29:51):
life I'm at, where I cold plunge.
But it is amazing when you practicecalming your nervous system,
because the thing is, it initiatesa fight or flight response.
Your body does not want you togo in; it is very cold in there.
But you have to be uncomfortableand tell your mind that you are
safe and that it is fine and thatyou're going to do it anyway.
(30:12):
And there's a small period oftime where you feel the anxiety,
and then you feel it dissipate.
It is a very powerful thing.
We can create other situations,maybe without 50-degree water,
where you can do that as well.
But it is this idea that the more youdo it, the more used to it you are.
And then that fight or flight responsedoesn't get as big, because your
(30:33):
body is used to calming itself down.
So, when you sit down to do this veryimportant practice that makes you
uncomfortable, that might be anxietyinducing - yes, you might feel the
adrenaline start to pump, even if it'sjust to sit down and do a practice
question, you then have to say, "Well,this is my opportunity to take those
deep breaths and calm my nervous systemdown, so I can do it in the exam room",
(30:54):
since there's no cold plunge at the bar.
Alison Monahan (30:57):
Yeah.
I remember when I was doing my openwater scuba certification, we did it
in Monterey Bay in like a 7mm wetsuit.
And most people were actually indrysuits, but they wouldn't let us
do that, because it wasn't in therules of how you got certified.
And I remember going underwater andbasically having a physical panic attack
on the body, because it was so cold.
And I'd never been in a wetsuitbefore, I didn't know that
(31:19):
of course, it has to warm up.
For a minute, you're just literallyin this freezing cold water, and
your body is just like, "I've got toget out of here." And one girl did.
She went up and she was like, "Thisis not for me." But I remember sitting
on the bottom and I was negotiatingwith myself like, "Okay, this is
really unpleasant, you want to leave.
Why don't you just try to waitlike five minutes, see how it
goes?" And then I started lookingaround, and then it was great. I
(31:42):
was like, "Wow, this is beautiful.
I'm like in the aquarium, butit's real life." And I was fine.
But I remember that sensationof like, "I can't do this."
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (31:51):
What's also interesting is, I bet if you're worried about this mental
game piece of the bar, you can go throughyour life and say, "What other hard things
have I done? What situations have I beenin where that panic has set in?" I think
for most people, we can come up witha few different scenarios of where you
literally felt this physical response topanic, and then how did you get out of it?
(32:13):
How did you work through it?
How did you get to the other side?
And take those lessons.
I think sometimes we let these testssit by themselves, like they're
their own thing that don't relateto any other things in life, when
a lot of these are life skills.
Life is hard, and you end updoing a lot of really hard things.
Sometimes I'll be sitting in mycar, not wanting to do the next hard
(32:35):
thing I have to do, and I will takea few minutes to prepare myself to do
the hard thing that I don't want to
Alison Monahan (32:41):
do.
Oh yeah.
Like take all those breaths, like,"Okay, I'm just going to sit, I'm going
to center myself before I have thisconversation." And then you go do it.
Lee Burgess (32:49):
Yeah.
And so, you have some ofthese skills as life skills.
And if you don't have theseskills, they're great life skills.
So
This
Alison Monahan (32:57):
is great time to start
Lee Burgess (32:59):
developing them.
Develop them, because lifedoesn't really get much easier.
Alison Monahan (33:04):
Fair.
I mean, if you're going to be a lawyer,there are going to be moments where
you're like, "Oh my gosh, I feel sickabout what I'm having to step into.
I'm not qualified for this." Whateverstoryline you've got going on, but I
definitely remember as a lawyer justbeing like, "What? I'm so over my head
right now." And I still have to go in.
Imposter
Lee Burgess (33:21):
syndrome, you name it.
Alison Monahan (33:22):
I still have to go take this deposition, even though I
literally have no idea what I'm doing.
Lee Burgess (33:27):
Yeah.
Not to say that it makes it easy.
None of it makes it easy.
But it allows you to do it withoutthat big paralyzing response.
This is all learned stuff.
Most of us are not
hardwired to find this easy.
People who are Type A perfectionists,I think especially, we put so
much pressure on ourselves.
And a lot of people in law schoolhave that personality structure.
(33:51):
So, we then have to do theextra work to make sure that we
cannot let those tendencies justreally drive us into the ground.
It's not worth it, because youcan't show up as your best self.
All you're trying to do is show up asa pretty good version of yourself to
give yourself the best shot at passing.
That's really what this game is.
Alison Monahan (34:09):
I'll bring it back to skiing.
So I'm preparing for a ski exam.
And part of what they do is they makeyou ski bumps, which I don't like
skiing bumps, but the reason somebodytold me they make you do it is because
that's where people fall apart.
So they're trying to see basicallywhen we put you on something that is
uncomfortable, do you have the habitsin place sufficiently that you can
(34:31):
get through it in a reasonable manner?
Nobody's expecting perfection, but areyou going to totally fall apart, or are
you going to get it 80% and pass the exam?
That's what we're kind of looking for.
No one's going to perform theirabsolute best on test day, because
you're under a lot of stress.
Lee Burgess (34:46):
Yeah.
And you don't want that stress tobe the driver of your performance.
Alison Monahan (34:53):
Yeah, you have to find ways for it not to be debilitating.
Yeah.
Lee Burgess (34:58):
These are all learned skills.
So, you don't have tocold plunge or ski bumps.
You can just do hard things.
There are plenty of hard thingsthat you have to do in your life.
But I think just being aware of this,as you do anything you don't want to do.
I don't like to go to the dentist.
I have to sit and psych myselfup to go to the dentist.
Alison Monahan (35:16):
I don't know, I'm one of those people, I'm like, yeah, it's
Lee Burgess (35:17):
not pleasant.
I know you dentist.
Doesn't
Alison Monahan (35:18):
really bother me.
I don't like the dentist, nobody likesthe dentist, but it's not my stress point.
I have other stresspoints, we all have them.
Lee Burgess (35:24):
We all have them.
But I think you can use thosestress points as a practice.
And if you just start to developthis practice, it will serve
you as a lawyer, because as yousaid, law jobs are stressful.
Even the ones that aren't the moststressful are still really stressful.
And you're dealing with folks whotypically are in extreme situations.
So, even if your stress is manageable, youmight be in a meeting with someone whose
(35:47):
stress is off the roof, over the roof?
Alison Monahan (35:50):
Off the charts.
Lee Burgess (35:51):
the charts.
I'm just mixing all my metaphors today.
But you're going to need to hold enoughspace to hold somebody else's anxiety too.
So, use this as a practice for beingjust the best lawyer you can be.
Alison Monahan (36:04):
So, the bar exam is a metaphor for life.
Lee Burgess (36:07):
If you enjoyed this episode of the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast, please
take a second to leave a review andrating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it.
And be sure to subscribeso you don't miss anything.
If you're still in law school, youmight also like to check out our popular
Law School Toolbox podcast as well.
If you have any questions or comments,please don't hesitate to reach out to
myself or Alison at lee@barexamtoolbox.comor alison@barexamtoolbox.com.
(36:31):
Or you can always contact us via ourwebsite contact form at BarExamToolbox.
com.
Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.