Dr. Lindsey Wendt co- hosts our chat with Dr. Renee Schmid, a veterinary toxicologist from Pet Poison Helpline, who sheds light on the all-too-common issue of toxicity in pets during the festive period. From chocolate to poinsettias, human medications, decorations, xylitol, marijuana and more. Dr. Schmid highlights the common everyday hazards that pets may fall prey to, underscoring the importance of keeping these items out of their reach.
She also offers practical advice for when your furry friend ingests something potentially toxic. Learn the vital importance of staying calm, gathering information, and understanding how certain substances can affect your pet. We wrap up with a look at the crucial role of veterinary clinics and public education in raising awareness about toxin concerns.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you so much for joining us.
We're talking about toxicity inour animals and our pets,
specifically dogs.
Since this is a dog podcast, Doyou want to introduce yourself
a tad and let?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
us know a little bit.
Yeah, you bet, I'm ReneeSchmidt.
I'm a veterinary toxicologistwith Pet Poison Helpline.
I've been with Pet PoisonHelpline for just over 10 years
now and also the manager ofveterinary medicine and
professional services there.
I'm a Kansas State graduate,very proud Kansas State graduate
, and I've been.
You know, toxicology wassomething that I never really
(00:35):
had a huge passion for when Iwas in vet school or out in
practice.
I always kind of enjoyed it,but as time went on I found that
it really allowed the blendingof the things that I like to do
and solving all the pieces ofthe puzzle, putting the pieces
of the puzzle together and whenanimals get into things.
So it's been a very enjoyablesector of veterinary medicine.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That's fantastic.
I wanted to focus today, justright now, specifically have
some questions.
Since we're jumping into theholidays, I wanted to talk a
little bit about some of thethings that you find that pets
may get into over the holidayseason and if you see an uptick
in cases during this time ofyear versus during other times
(01:19):
of year.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
November and December aregenerally our busiest two months
out of the year with call, andso we definitely see a pretty
large uptick in those two monthsand it varies from just the
regular things that animalsgenerally kind of get into.
But when we step back and wethink about it, as you know pet
(01:43):
owners and family members we'rekind of a little bit
discombobulated.
These last couple of months ofthe year We've got changes to
our schedule.
We have a lot of differentthings going on.
So maybe even the most in tunepet parents or maybe somebody
who is really diligent aboutkeeping things out of reach for
their pets and they just kind ofget off kilter a little bit and
(02:05):
so they might leave somethingsitting out.
Or when we have house guests, alot of times there's a lot of
traveling going on and so whenyou have somebody that's coming
over to your house and visitingand they have that suitcase or
that bag on the floor and theirmedications are there and then
the animal gets into it, soreally common things in that
manner that we see a little bitcalls from that animals have
(02:26):
gotten into.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I just had.
My mom was just here last weekfor the week and I had to keep
repeatedly reminding her to puther medication on top of on the
kitchen counter, not like nextto her bed, and get the stuff
off the floor constantly.
Luckily my dog could care lessabout that stuff, but still it's
.
You know, you never know, soshe's just not used to it.
(02:47):
Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, you never know.
My kind of phrase for theholiday is to anybody who's
coming over to your house, youknow, ask them right away do you
have any medications?
Let's put it up in a counter orup in a cabinet for you,
absolutely To get it out of theway so it doesn't even become an
issue.
And even supplements.
You know a lot of people.
They think that if it's overthe counter and it's a healthy
(03:11):
supplement for them, it'shealthy for their pets as well.
So they don't think about thedog that maybe gets into a
bottle of multivitamins or abottle of their vitamin D3
supplements.
And so even any little thingthat a person might take,
whether it be prescriptionmedication or just a natural
supplement, let's get it off thefloor.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Let's make sure it's out of reach, make sure there's
no risk at all, even if we don'treally know Are there common
things that dogs get into overthe holidays, that we need to be
prepared, or should we justcross the board?
Just make sure everything isout of your pets reach, just to
be cautious.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, you know, for human medications for sure, you
know, obviously let's make surethose are out of reach.
Chocolate they love to get intochocolate all of the time, but
Christmas time is actually theholiday where we see the highest
number of calls with animalsgetting into chocolate and I
think it's just one.
Because of parties andcelebrations, people are baking
(04:08):
more.
They're getting gifts, bakedgoods, they're putting chocolate
products under the tree.
You know there's just a lotmore out there for them to get
into and so we see that timequite a bit.
And then also around theholidays, and really all year
round, but the holidays as well,the lilies so true lilies that
we have to be concerned aboutwith cats.
(04:29):
There's a lot of holidaydecorations.
When you order a nice beautifulholiday centerpiece that will
have the nice large, brilliantwhite lilies that are in there,
those are usually going to betrue lilies and can cause kidney
failure in cats and we seethose.
You know, valentine's Day,mother's Day, they're all around
(04:50):
, but we can't forget about thatin the Christmas time as well,
and then anything that couldpotentially contain xylitol, so
any of those food productsduring your baking time.
If you are somebody who usesxylitol instead of sugar, be
sure and really keep that out ofreach for your pet, an animal
(05:10):
that gets into pure xylitol youknow baking powder.
It takes a very, very smallamount for them to have
significant issues.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And what do those issues like?
What do those issues look like?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, so if they were to get into xylitol they can
have a drop in blood sugar, andso with that drop in blood sugar
, called hypoglycemia, they candevelop kind of difficulty
walking a taxia, they're prettysluggish, they can even have
tremors and seizures occurringand then, if they get into a
(05:44):
large enough amount which,depending on the size of the dog
, may still be very little theycan actually have liver failure
and they can die from liverfailure.
And some signs of that wouldalso be vomiting, maybe some
yellow discoloration to theirgums and to their eyes and skin.
If that happens they'veprobably been sick quite a bit
(06:06):
before the pet owner sees that,but they're just really off and
significantly lethargic orsluggish.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
How long does it take for that to kick in, like
immediately, he was saying, orlike hours, or yeah yeah, so
they can start to vomit withinabout 30 minutes after getting
into xylitol.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Their blood sugar can drop in that timeframe, but
usually within the first twohours and it can last.
They can have that low bloodsugar for up to two days in some
cases and then the liverchanges.
We can see blood work changeswithin just a couple of hours,
but liver failure itself usuallyit's gonna be around that 24
(06:50):
hours or the day after they'vegotten into it.
The good news I would say aboutxylitol I know we're just
talking mainly about dogs, butfor anyone who has multi pets or
has some cats in the household,cats don't have an issue with
xylitol and so it's really thatbig concern with dogs and I
(07:10):
always like to call if you havean assassin cat in your
household, so the one that likesto be on the countertop and
knock things over for the dog inhopes of being the only pet in
the household, and just to beaware of that.
Not a concern for cats, butdefinitely the dogs we have to
be really concerned with.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
And then this is more of a technical question, but I
actually I was not aware that itwas only a toxicity for dogs.
What is the underlying?
I guess like pathology behindthat.
Cause usually cats are moresensitive.
Yeah, isn't that?
Yeah, cats rarely.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Cats rarely draw the long straw.
They usually get the shortstraw on a lot of things and we
don't know why.
We don't know why cats areaffected differently and it's
actually very species specificwith xylitol.
So cattle have a toxicity toxylitol, but it's a much larger
(08:07):
amount and how they would beexposed to it would be very
minimal or rare.
There's been studies that weredone way back in like the 60s
and 70s where they looked atcattle and pigs and horses and
rabbits and you know they allhave some degree of toxicity but
the amount that they would needto get into is very different
(08:27):
and we don't know why cats areresistant to it.
But it's one of those thingswhere it's like embrace, we'll
embrace it for those cat loversout there Definitely.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
And then I know one thing that I've been seeing a
lot more xylitol being in peanutbutter.
So can you speak to that too,cause that's been, it seems,
like more of a trend, so thatpeople can't just necessarily
grab any peanut butter off theshelf.
They really need to be readingthe label.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, and you know we used to think back.
You know, years ago we wouldsay if it says it's sugar free,
look for xylitol.
And now there's xylitol in alot of products that don't say
anything about being sugar free,and there's even products that
contain xylitol and sugar, andso now it's anything that would
(09:15):
potentially require a flavor inthe mouth.
Look for xylitol is what I kindof say it's.
Don't stop at sugar free, don'tmake an assumption anywhere one
way or the other.
And as far as the peanut buttergoes, so far we have not found
any what I call mainstreampeanut butter.
So if you were to go to themain aisles of your grocery
(09:36):
store and get either the thegrocery store brand or, you know
, some of those like Jiff andSkippy's, I haven't so far seen
xylitol, even with their lowsugar natural products.
Most of them are in I call themthe boutique brands.
So the you know kind of go inthat whole food section.
Maybe they're more of theorganic, they're kind of those
(09:58):
specialty brands and that'swhere we could potentially see
more xylitol.
That being said, I would alwayslook, you know, check.
If you're going to give xylitolpeanut butter to your dog, make
sure, check you, check thebottle, because manufacturers
can change their ingredients atany time, but so far, most of
that's going to be thosespecialty brands.
(10:19):
There are some peanut butterspreads that have different
flavors, different types offlavors, not just peanut butter
flavor, and so those are some ofthe ones that we're starting to
see xylitol in as well.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Wow, can I circle back to holidays really quickly
one more time?
Yeah, point setters, are theytoxic to dogs?
I have a dog care business, soI have dogs in and out of here
and I want to decorate for theholidays, but I'm always really
cautious, as you mentioned, andI've read Nick's things.
So what's your take?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
on that yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, so by definition.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
point setters are toxic because they create a
negative effect when they'rewhen they're invested, the good
news is is that they causestomach upset.
Okay.
So they're not going to be.
They're not going to be fatal,unless let's say that that very
rare dog that maybe keeps eatingand eating and eating the point
(11:16):
that is and is vomiting anddiarrhea and becoming dehydrated
and the owner isn't noticing itand isn't seeking treatment,
you know something like thatwhere they're having some some
other effects from it.
But otherwise usually it's justgoing to be some mild stomach
upset, maybe some vomiting,maybe some loose stool.
Usually it's going to correctitself on its own.
(11:38):
So I wouldn't hesitate to put apoint set in my house.
So I have dogs and cats and Iwon't hesitate to put it in
there.
But if one of them just refusesto stop eating it, I may try to
put it up higher, just becauseI don't want the mess, but I
it's not something that we wouldever expect to be fatal.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
That's good, good to know.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Another holiday decoration.
Oh sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
No, it's probably the biggest holiday myth.
Okay good, I'm glad I yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean, I don't want stomach upset in any of my
guys either.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
You know, but, but, at least I know.
I'm not, you know, putting themin danger.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, and I treat them very differently as opposed
to like the lilies, the truelilies.
If you have a cat in your house, I would.
I would not have a, I would nothave a true lily with cats in
the house and I love lilies.
They're beautiful flowers.
But if you're going to have acat in the house, keep the
lilies away.
Point set is I have at it, Putthem in there.
But if the dog or cat continuesto chew on it, need on it and
(12:42):
have stomach upset, then try toput it someplace.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That makes it more difficult to get.
Dr Lindsey, you had anotherholiday question.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I was going to say other decorations, so, like I've
heard you, plants, and thenalso I was wondering if you
could address like Christmastrees, because I know they can
be a toppling issue, but whatabout the water?
Or like licking the resin orthe sap, or any other plants
that tend to be more holiday?
Yeah, yeah you bet.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
So you plants Japanese use are probably the
most common in the United States, and a lot of times they are
used to build to make wreathsfor garland, just because of
their availability, theirdurability, and so you may have
a wreath in your house a livewreath that actually isn't made
(13:29):
of like pine or fir but is madeof you, and that's something
that's very toxic.
It contains what we callcardiac glycosides.
So these are heart toxins.
They cause heart blood pressure, heart rate arrhythmias, rhythm
issues, and can definitely befatal.
So that would probably be oneas well that if I had a dog or a
(13:52):
cat in the household, I wouldwatch my wreath carefully to
make sure that if it starts todie and fall you know, fall down
that night I take care of it atthat point.
And then and then the Christmastree.
So the Christmas tree has, youknow, come is some essential
oils, and the sap that's inthere can be very irritating to
(14:14):
the stomach and the intestinaltract.
The water itself isn't usuallygoing to be much of an issue.
The little fertilizer or plantfood, tree food that gets poured
in there, that usually is not abig issue either, if they get
into a little bit of that whereit becomes more problematic is
(14:35):
depending on how you care forthe tree and what you read.
Some people will put aspirin intheir, in their tree water, and
so that is definitelyproblematic, more so for cats,
and when I think about the treestand and the tree water
underneath the tree.
My dog can't get to it but mycats sure can, and so that's
(14:58):
something to be to be cautiousof as far as that goes.
But the tree itself, the pineneedles or the fur needles or
whatever they're ingesting,those are definitely irritating
and if they can ingest enough ofthem could potentially cause an
obstruction if they, you know,if they're really going to town
on it.
But not a huge concern as faras toxicity goes.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay, can I?
I want to circle back again.
Again I'm circling back.
I want to focus on chocolatebecause I I've also heard mixed
things about chocolate.
Is it that it's different kindsof chocolate that can cause an
issue?
The amount of chocolate?
I've certainly had dogs who'vehad like a chocolate chip cookie
and they were and I wasfreaking out and they were
completely fine.
(15:42):
My sister's dog has eatenbatches of chocolate chip
cookies and had to have hisstomach pumped like maybe three
or four times during thislifetime Just to be safe.
He was definitely like a youknow counter surfer.
But can we kind of cause that'sa really common toxin in our
pets and then we hear a lotabout it?
(16:03):
Can we really kind of dive intothat and talk about some of the
best of some of the realitiesand what we need to look for.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Absolutely so with chocolate, and this is goes for
dogs or cats, so whichever, ifyou have a mixed household, it
works for either animal.
It really is going to depend onseveral things, like you
mentioned.
How much did they get into?
Because in toxicology the dosemakes the poison, and so while
something may be toxic, there'salways an amount that needs to
(16:35):
be ingested or exposed to beforeit's actually an issue.
And then we have to think aboutwhat kind of chocolate.
So you alluded to that as well.
If easy kind of rule of thumb, Ithink about the less sweet
chocolates, the more concerningthey are.
So there's a component inchocolate that's called
(16:56):
theobromine, and that's thebiggest concern.
It also contains caffeine, butsmall amounts, and so we don't
usually get too worried aboutthat.
It's the theobromine portionthat's more problematic, and so
the the higher percentage oflike real chocolate, full
chocolate, is going to be moreconcerning.
So think about your baker'schocolate, or maybe you're 90%
(17:19):
and higher, dark chocolate, cowsor pure chocolate, pure cacao,
think about your semi sweetchocolates, and then kind of,
we're going to go down fromthere.
So we have dark chocolate indifferent percentages, and I
think in order to be named adark chocolate, if I remember
right it needs to be around 50or 52% cacao or dark chocolate
(17:41):
cacao, but there's different,there's varying percentages, and
so that's going to vary theamount of theobromine that's in
there.
And then work our way down tomilk chocolate that's nice and
sweet, and then go to whitechocolate, which really just has
some cocoa butter in it, notmuch theobromine at all.
And so if you were to take a 10pound dog that ingested one
(18:03):
Hershey kiss versus a 10 pounddog that ingested the same
amount of baker's chocolate,could have very different
effects with that.
So one Hershey kiss in a dogprobably not going to be a big
issue, but that same amount in a100% pure chocolate or baker's
(18:23):
chocolate could definitely be aconcern in our small dogs, and
so the weight of the dog isgoing to really make that issue,
make that change ordetermination as well.
So how much can they get into?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
that makes sense and does it present itself the same
way?
The the, the, the effects ofthe toxicity, like vomiting,
diarrhea or what does that looklike.
So people can get into that.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah you bet.
So what I suggest is, you know,call us, call us before
panicking.
Call us before taking mattersinto your own hands.
We unfortunately get calls fromextremely well meaning pet
owners that actually cause moreharm with trying to treat the
pet and then calling us and wehave to say well, what they got
(19:09):
into isn't problematic, but whatyou've done is, and so now you
do need to go into that, intothe veterinarian.
But I would say that you knowanything over that Hershey kiss.
You know, let's call and see,because what we can do is we can
do calculations to determine,based on what it is that they
got into and based on their petsize, how problematic is this
(19:30):
going to be?
And there's kind of differentlayers of chocolate poisoning
that we get concerned with.
So any animal that gets intochocolate can develop stomach
upset because it's a, it's a,it's a rich food, and so they
may vomit, they may have someloose stool, they could even
develop pancreatitis, so aninflammation of the pancreas
because they're trying to digestthis rich food.
(19:52):
And that doesn't even have tobe a toxic level, that can be a
small amount.
And then, as they ingest moreof that, then we can see a high
heart rate.
We can see a high bloodpressure.
They're antsy, they're agitated, they're kind of, you know,
restless, they're kind ofbouncing around a lot.
Maybe they have some bodytremors.
(20:12):
As this keeps going up, we cansee some heart rhythm problems
and changes.
We can see seizures developing.
It definitely can be fataldepending on how much they get
into.
Fortunately, I think pet ownersknow a lot about chocolate in
the sense of this could be bad,and they recognize minds and
they get therapy.
(20:32):
Most animals, if they gettreated for early on, do
extremely well.
We've had cases thatunfortunately don't go as well,
are usually ones where they justthey, they waited it out, and
so then it was too long to doany type of kind of
decontamination or trying totrying to get rid of some of
that chocolate that they'veingested and then they end up
(20:55):
having some really significantsigns.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Okay, one thing I actually wanted to ask you.
So I know, as a veterinarian,because I used to practice
emergency medicine, I becamevery used to calling you all for
many cases, but I also hadaccess to a calculator where I
myself could determine okay,this is the amount of chocolate
that they ate, this is theirweight.
What range of concern is thisin?
(21:20):
Are there any resources likethat available to pet parents so
that you know, especiallyduring the holidays when I know
you know pet poison hot likelike you get inundated with
calls so sometimes the waittimes can be long.
Are there other options for petparents as a resource?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You know that's a great question and I'm not.
I don't know of any that areout there available.
You know that calculator andthere's one that's you know it's
limited to veterinary membersof a particular organization for
continuing education and thingsthat's available.
I'm not aware of one that's outthere for pet parents
(21:58):
themselves, and you couldcertainly go to our website,
just petpoisonhelplinecom.
You could type in chocolate andthere's some information there
that kind of helps guide you asto what kind they got into and
things like that, but I'm notsure it's going to actually do
kind of the calculations for you.
The one thing that I would alsomention is that there are a lot
(22:21):
of you know there's a lot ofdifferent technology out there
now.
There's AI, there's a lot ofchat places where you can chat
in and ask questions, and Iwould really encourage everyone
to use caution with those.
We've played around with them,we've tested them.
A lot of it is not right.
Some of it is accurate.
(22:42):
It's difficult for a pet ownerto know what's right and what
isn't, because the answer that'sgiven is very confident, and so
it's really something where Iwould highly encourage someone
to contact their veterinarian.
If they're not available,contact an animal poison control
center, like pet poison helpline, and really get the
(23:03):
information that you need.
And I know there's a fee and alot of people are hesitant to
pay the fee, but let's get theright information.
If we can save you a trip intothe emergency clinic, if we can
save you from getting additionalcare, you know it's well worth
the money and the peace of mind.
In my opinion.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
As an emergency veterinarian, I know for me when
people would come in.
Despite what the patient mighthave eaten, I oftentimes would
call a poison hotline so that Icould have guidance on how to
treat and to give them moreinformation.
So one thing I startedencouraging a lot of pet parents
to do is if they can call whenthey're on their way to the
emergency hospital so that wecan then take that case number,
(23:44):
call and have more immediateattention.
So, I was wondering if there'sany other kind of tips that you
have for pet parents Like I know.
Another one I used to tellpeople is whatever they eat,
grab the packaging, grab yourpet, get in the car and start
driving to the emergencyhospital If you can safely call
while you're on your way.
But are there any other kind oftips or tricks that we can do
(24:04):
to make our jobs together easierand then increase the rate of
care that they're receiving?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, you bet.
So your tips are excellent anda lot of times if that pet owner
or pet parent can call whenthey're in route or before
they've left their home and wemay be able to save them the
trip from going in and sayyou're OK to wait, or maybe they
didn't think about grabbingthat packaging.
Or maybe we get plenty of callswhere they leave in a panic,
(24:36):
and I would do the same thingwhen something happens with my
pets.
I am no longer a veterinarian,I am a panicked, concerned owner
and the logic kind of flies outthe window because there are
family members and so we'rereally concerned about them and
so it's very normal for petowners to panic.
But that's probably my firsttip is to say don't panic, take
(24:58):
a step, take a breath and reallythink about gather all of that
packaging.
As you said, if there'smedication, if there's pills
that are strung out on the floor, grab as many as you can.
Try to get as much informationabout the exposure as possible.
So when you go to yourveterinarian, if you tell them
that your pet ingested somegreen rat bait, it's not going
(25:23):
to guide them into what needs tobe done, and I think that's
another kind of commonmisconception is people often
think that rat baits have thesame treatment, same active
ingredients, and they don't.
They have very differentmechanisms and very different
outcomes.
And so just finding all of thatinformation that you can to
either give to your veterinarianor to give to pet poison
(25:44):
helpline so that we can makethat best assessment.
It's very natural for pet ownersto be a little bit discouraged
when they call in because theysay all I know is that they got
into bait and you should help meknow what this is.
And unfortunately we kind ofneed some more information.
And so if they can have somepackaging available to them, if
(26:06):
we can know how much it is thatthey got into, if they got into
that bottle of ibuprofen, whatwas it to begin with?
How many was in there to beginwith?
How long have you been using it?
Or prescription medications.
Sometimes we send those ownersback into their pharmacy and say
we'll find out what thatmilligram strength was when it
(26:26):
was filled.
How many times are you takingit a day to try and get an idea
as to how much is there?
And so those are all thingsthat can be very helpful at
determining what it is that, ifit's going to be an issue or not
, what it is that they got intoand how much of a problem it is.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
If I can share a story.
I had a client who, when he wasfive, we were not 100% sure
what he ate.
It was incredibly scary.
We were pretty sure it was ratbait.
He ended up in the emergencyvet for nearing three weeks.
He was a rare case.
They kept him there.
(27:05):
His family had lots ofresources so they opted to keep
it going and they had vetscalling from all over trying to.
You know, because it was a casestudy.
But he ended up living a long,long life.
He passed away at about 15.
But they think that it waseither rat bait or they kept
asking about vitamin D, like ifthey had eaten some like
(27:27):
cortisone, like you know, likedermatology cream or something
like that.
So it was one of the and wecouldn't no one claimed that,
but the only thing we couldthink of that he was a golden
retriever, so he got intoeverything out in the world.
So we figured he must havepicked up some sort of rat
poison.
It was really really scary.
I mean, essentially they kepthim alive while it worked
(27:49):
through his system and theyflushed it all out of his system
.
I mean it was very scary and hewas very lucky.
But we had that firsthandexperience.
So what are you saying?
That their different rat poisondoes different things?
Is that you never?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, so there's three main types of rat and
mouse baits that are sold forkind of residential use.
One of them is Koli calciferol,which is vitamin D3.
I always say I think the market,I think the marketing people
decided well, we can't call itvitamin D3 because people use it
in a supplement, so let's callit by its other name, koli
(28:27):
calciferol.
But they're the same thing andtakes a very small amount to be
problematic for dogs or cats andthis will cause high calcium,
blood calcium levels, which thencan cause damage to multiple
organs, including the sensitivekidneys, and can cause kidney
failure to occur.
So that's probably why theythought it was either a rat bait
(28:51):
or a vitamin D supplement,because the effects are the same
.
And then one of the other typesof rodenticide would be
bromethylene, and bromethylenecauses brain swelling to occur,
so it causes neurologic issuescompletely different than Koli
calciferol, and the amount thatthe animal has to get into is
(29:11):
different than Koli calciferol.
And then the most what we calltraditional, the ones that
people think about mostfrequently, are the
anticoagulants.
Those are the ones that causebleeding issues to occur.
There's multiple differentactive ingredients in that same
class and those have been aroundthe longest for sure, but
(29:32):
they're also being phased out toan extent because of the EPA
makes decisions as to what canbe sold here and there, and
several of them have been phasedout or banned because of the
negative effects on wildlife andtrying to preserve the wildlife
population and those causebleeding issues to occur.
(29:53):
So if you think about thosethree different things, we have
calcium and kidney failure, wehave brain swelling, we have
bleeding issues.
The treatments are all going tobe very different and so if we
make an assumption that it'sthis one or that one, we will be
completely missing the boat insome of these cases.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
We got very lucky there, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
For sure.
So one thing that I have beenseeing that's gaining a lot of
popularity is there's an actualproduct that is being plugged in
many social media channels.
That's an activated charcoaland it's small little charcoal
beads and people and it has ahigh price point as well.
But people are being urged likeby this, so that if your dog
(30:38):
gets into chocolate or this orthat and they're just listing
all of these things like givethis basically insinuating to
give that and then seek outveterinary care or just give
that and kind of care for yourpet yourself.
I was curious your opinion onthat because I know as a
practitioner activated charcoalis not always recommended.
(30:59):
And then oftentimes, when theydo ingest things, we're actually
inducing vomiting.
So the concern of themaspirating or accidentally
inhaling that charcoal that thepet parent gave with good
intentions could end up causingmore damage than if they would
have just waited and pursuedtreatment through a veterinary.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm glad you brought it up.
It is something that came outjust a couple of months ago and,
reading up on the product,there is some concern about the
way that it is marketed, as youmentioned, to give it and then
figure out what it is later.
It is charcoal doesn't bind toeverything.
(31:40):
It doesn't work for every toxinand sometimes we do want to
induce vomiting first, andsometimes we wouldn't want to
give charcoal even if it doesn'twork.
There may be other reasons whywe wouldn't want to give it, and
so I think it's a great productin the sense that if an owner
(32:00):
doesn't have another resource,maybe there's three hours away
from a clinic.
We've talked to pet owners whothey live on an island and the
ferry isn't coming untiltomorrow or it's a blizzard and
they cannot get out, and sobeing guided to do that is
(32:20):
something that there coulddefinitely be benefit for.
But I am a bit concerned withusing that first off.
Personally, as a veterinarytoxicologist, I would never give
my pet charcoal before knowingif it is necessary or doing
anything else first.
So I would encourage petparents who have that, or if
(32:44):
they're considering that, talkwith your veterinarian first.
Talk with pet poison helpline.
First talk with the experts,find out what needs to be done
and if it should be even given.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
On those same lines.
What about the hydrogen?
I think it's hydrogen peroxide.
At times when some of myclients have had eaten chocolate
or chocolate cookies, I've hadtheir parents text me instead of
texting the vet, for whateverreason, and say maybe I should
(33:17):
give the pomeo hydrogen peroxide.
What are your thoughts on that?
Is that a good thing?
Is it a bad thing?
Is it depends on the situation?
Oh yeah, it's both.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah Well, in my opinion, I think that hydrogen
peroxide is a very polarizingtopic in toxicology.
You'll have veterinarians whowill be for it and you'll have
veterinarians who will beabsolutely against it.
I respect both.
I feel that it's good to have ahealthy disagreement with it.
I would say that we, clinically, we have been able to prevent
(33:52):
animals from developingpoisoning or clinical signs.
We've been able to prevent themfrom having to go into the
clinic if necessary, where itwouldn't have.
We've been able to do thingswith dogs by recommending
hydrogen peroxide.
That being said, we check everybox.
The animal needs to be theright breed.
(34:15):
It needs to be.
The timing needs to be right.
The health of the animal needsto be right.
The thing that they ingestedneeds to be right.
We would never just givehydrogen peroxide for the fun of
it, but we really have to checkthe boxes.
We never give hydrogen peroxidein a cat period.
There's no time where we wouldever do that, because they are
(34:38):
very sensitive.
They don't handle it very well.
When we think about hydrogenperoxide, the way it works is
it's a stomach irritant.
It's going to irritate the wallof the stomach and that's what
causes that vomiting to happen.
Cats it causes.
It can cause some ulcerationsand more and kind of worsening
(35:00):
issues.
It can happen in dogs.
It's unlikely.
It's less likely to occur ifyou use a specific dosing.
We never want to give hydrogenperoxide until they vomit.
We definitely have had callswhere people have said I don't
know, I just poured hydrogenperoxide down my dog and he
didn't vomit.
(35:20):
Those are ones that areconcerning that are going to
develop issues.
When I tell a pet parent abouthydrogen peroxide, I would say
never give it on your own, giveit under the direction of a
veterinarian or a toxicologyexpert.
They're going to check theboxes and say, yes, your pet
would probably benefit from that.
(35:41):
There's a lot of times wherewe've gotten that call within
five or 10 minutes.
They've given hydrogen peroxide.
Whatever it is that they gotinto, come right back up and
we've saved the animal.
There's times when inducingvomiting at home with hydrogen
peroxide would not be ideal andthey would need to go into the
clinic.
I have great respect for peoplewho disagree and say it should
(36:04):
never be given and that's okay.
But I know that for us, out ofthe hundreds of thousands of
millions of cases that we'vemanaged, the number of animals
who have had negative effects isextremely low in comparison
with the number of animals thathave benefited from it.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
As a follow up on that.
We've talked about charcoal,we've talked about hydrogen
peroxide.
Are there any items or toolsthat pet parents can have on
hand at home to help evencalling into pet poison helpline
that can help them better treattheir pet if they're not able
to get to about, like you weresaying, if they're far away or
(36:46):
just a half on hand, Is thereanything that you would
recommend that they keep at home?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, that's a tough question for cats, unfortunately
probably not.
There's really nothing thereunless they get into something
that can cause corrosive issuesor ulcerations, burns.
Then certainly just using waterto irrigate and flush or
something in their eye.
For dogs, really, that hydrogenperoxide that should be
(37:14):
unexpired and fresh is somethingthat is probably good to have
on hand.
Obviously, something to justwater and diluting, depending on
what they get into.
Sometimes, not very often butthere's a few things that we
might recommend giving a littlebit of milk to to help.
I would also say, if you'regoing to have xylitol in the
(37:36):
household, let's make sure thatmaybe you have a caro syrup or
even pancake syrup or somethinglike that, so that if the animal
does get into it, you can givesome type of a heavy glucose
source or sugar source to helpminimize that risk of that low
blood pressure from occurringbefore you get them into the
(37:57):
clinic.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
How much would honey work for that I?
Was going to say how much wouldyou give of that to help
counteract that, like atablespoon or something, or it
just depends on the animal.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It depends on the size of the dog.
A lot of times I'll say justrub it on their gums.
Just rub a little bit on theirgums.
If they're starting to showsigns where they're wobbly and
they're losing their footing,then try to give a little bit
more with that while you're inroute to the clinic.
I kind of say take that withyou so that as things change
(38:32):
because xylitol does work soquickly- I was going to ask
would honey work as well, justin a pinch?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Is that an option?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, so you could use honey.
We typically say don't usehoney and dogs that are like
less than six months of age andjust there's always that
botulism concern.
So you could definitely usehoney if you needed to just a
little bit along the gums.
But caro syrup is probably theone that we say that reach for
first if you have it.
If you're not in a householdthat bakes and most people don't
(39:03):
have caro syrup around, so thenI say, grab the pancake syrup.
Or even if you just have some alittle bit of sugar and you
have nothing else that you cando, just some of the granules of
the sugar, just anything to tryand help get some glucose
absorbed, to help with that.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Can you talk a little bit more about the botulism?
Sorry, I know that it was kindof a passing pattern but I don't
think that's something thatmost people know about, so it
might just be.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, I think there's .
You know, when you think aboutinfants, they recommend avoiding
making sure that honey isn'tused at a certain age, just
because they can be at a higherrisk of that.
And so I think we try to justgive that same, that we just
kind of put that same concernover on the animals, just to
make sure that that isn't.
You know, that they're oldenough and their body's healthy
(39:51):
enough that if there was anypotential risk of contamination,
that they would be able to takecare of that.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
So what I wanted to talk about next is actually kind
of leaving the holidays andwhen in the clinic.
I would love to hear youropinion on urine drug tests for
animals that do get into illicitdrugs, because that
unfortunately happens prettyfrequently on an emergency basis
.
What is the validity?
(40:18):
Because most of those tests arehuman urine drug tests.
So are those tests sensitiveenough that we should be using
them or recommending them in ourpets, or what?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
would you?
Speaker 3 (40:30):
recommend for both pet parents and practitioners.
Actually, yeah, that's a greatquestion.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
So I typically don't put a lot of weight into a urine
drug test because there's a lotof times there's a lot of
different metabolites.
So as that drug is beingprocessed and worked through the
body and metabolized throughthe body, there's different
metabolites between humans andanimals and so those urine drug
(40:58):
tests they are validated onhuman urine and they're not
validated on animal urine and soyou may have some false
positives, you may have somefalse negatives.
I generally say we're going totreat the signs.
If it looks like a duck, itwalks like a duck, it talks like
a duck, we're going to treat itas a duck.
(41:20):
And we've certainly had callswhere the urine drug test has
been positive for, let's say,methamphetamines or
methamphetamine, andmethamphetamine would give a
really high CNS or centralnervous system stimulation.
So these guys should bebouncing off the walls, they
should have a really high heartrate, a high blood pressure,
(41:41):
they should be extremelyagitated and this guy is really
subdued and he's dribbling urineand he's ataxic and so we're
going to treat him for marijuana, because that's what his signs
most likely are from, versusmethamphetamine, where he's not
showing any of those signs.
So a lot of people use them Ifthe results are accurate, then
(42:07):
it's great, but they're sounreliable that I typically say
let's just treat the signs andthat's where we all come down to
it anyways.
When that dog gets intosomething at the park and they
don't know what it is, and hestarts displaying these
particular signs, we know enoughabout what's out there and what
things can cause those signsthat we're going to treat them
(42:29):
symptomatically and supportively, really regardless of what that
test may say.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
And then you actually gave me the perfect segue,
because the next thing I wantedto talk about was THC toxicity.
So I know that obviously.
So, to give you a little bit ofbackground, I actually use
cannabis quite a bit in mypractice, obviously in a much
different way, and so what Iwill often tell people is the
reason that we see THC toxicityso much on an emergency basis is
(42:57):
because these animals aregetting into strains that have
been developed for humans thatare incredibly high THC.
They're not being used in aproper therapeutic way.
But I also have heard a lot ofdebate.
I've heard a lot ofveterinarians say that THC is
lethal, that it actually canlead to death.
At least for me, when I'velooked at the research, there's
(43:19):
actually no.
So there's something called anLD50 or a lethal dose.
There's no LD50 that's beenfound, at least for rats with
THC.
They haven't done the studieson dogs or cats, but I just
wanted you, if you don't mind,kind of speaking to that and
just any insight or opinion youhave on that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, you bet.
So there is a lethal dose indogs of three grams per kilogram
, which is, if you think, if youthink about a traditional
marijuana joint, that's a lot.
Three grams for a like a 50pound dog, that's almost 23
kilograms.
That's many ounces and ouncesof this product.
(43:57):
So, unless you're maybe a drugdealer and the dog gets into it,
probably not going to have thatmuch around, and so it's rarely
fatal.
We do have, however, calls withsome dogs that have been.
They are just extremelynegatively affected from it and
dogs have more receptors, morekind of those endocannabinoid
(44:22):
receptors, than humans do, andso they're much more sensitive
than humans and so there's notreally a good what we call a
toxic dose or what amount dothey have to get into before
they see signs.
It's very kind of individual,very variable with each dog, so
some dogs are far more sensitive, some are a little bit less,
(44:46):
but any exposure to THC or amarijuana product is potentially
likely enough to cause sometype of signs developing, and
with that we used to have ourmost common calls were from the
plant products, so thetraditional joint or the buds
that were there, and now we'reseeing a lot more edibles,
(45:07):
edibles, gummies, things thatare.
Maybe they also have chocolatein them, maybe they also have
xylitol in them, maybe they aremints, and so there's a lot of
different products that way thatwe're seeing animals getting
into.
And you bring up a good point.
As far as you know, that thecannabis plant itself, decades
ago there was a much lower THCconcentration and now the THC
(45:33):
concentration I want to say itwas maybe like 13%, 13%, 14%,
back in like the 60s and 70s,and now the plants are having
about 30% or more concentrationof THC.
So that same amount has moreTHC in it.
And then when you look about anedible, they can put in
(45:54):
whatever kind of concentrationthey want to, and so these guys
are getting into this andthey're getting significant
signs.
And the vast majority of dogsare going to be really lethargic
and sedated.
Now a lot of people laugh andsay, well, just, we're just
going to let them sleep it off,but along with that they could
have a low blood pressure, theycould have a low heart rate,
(46:16):
they could have low bodytemperature and if those things
aren't addressed, then they canactually cause negative effects
on other organs of the body.
And so I typically recommend,if an animal gets into THC is to
go in and get an examination tosee that everything's OK and
decide at that point if theyneed to be in the hospital for
(46:38):
supportive care or if they cango home and just be monitored,
because it's difficult for a petparent to know what their blood
pressure is or what their bodytemperature is and to treat
those types of things.
Then there are a small amountof dogs who will actually have
the opposite occur and they willbecome really agitated and
(46:59):
they'll have a high heart rateand a high blood pressure and
they'll need to actually besedated.
And so there are some dogs thatwork a little bit differently.
Almost most of the dogs willdribble urine, and so when you
take a pet into the veterinarianand you don't want to tell them
they got into THC, but they'redribbling urine the entire way
and they're having a hard timewalking on the cats out of the
(47:21):
bag.
So they got into THC.
No matter what you say, that'sprobably what happened.
So treatment of those isusually something that can
happen.
Fatalities are quite rare.
We've, surprisingly, have hadseveral really bad cases and if
I remember right I think theywere can't remember if they were
(47:42):
gummies or edibles that theygot into and they were just.
It was a really large amount.
So I think as we see more andmore of these gummies and
edibles going out there, we'regoing to see animals become more
and more affected.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
But yeah, I've had clients whose dogs picked up a
joint on a walk and then someonedropped their weed out in the
world.
And when they were walkingthere.
I had recently a client whosepuppy got into somebody's on a
walk and she had no idea what itwas.
Luckily it was a case to justsleep it off.
(48:15):
She did take the dog into thevet just to figure out what it
was, but it was super scary.
And then she was like sofrustrated that people just
irresponsibly toss it around andwhere your animals can get into
them.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
So yeah, yeah, and as more and more states legalize
marijuana, it's become moresocially acceptable to discuss
it and our calls.
Over the last five yearscompared to 2018, we had over a
700% increase in calls regardingmarijuana, and I think it's a
(48:50):
combination of one it is morereadily accessible, but, two,
it's more socially acceptable tosay that their pet got into it,
whereas in the past, when I wasin practice, you knew this dog
had gotten into marijuana as itcame into the clinic.
You knew it and it was likepulling teeth to get them to
come clean with it.
And now they just they'll justsay that it happened, even in
(49:13):
states where it's not legal.
So it's interesting because ofjust the differences in state
requirements, but also thedifferences in uses.
As you said, using it indifferent ways with cannabis and
CBD is a big topic ofdiscussion, and CBD in itself
(49:36):
doesn't have those psychoactiveeffects.
However, you have to be reallycareful to find pure CBD
products and there's really nogood regulations at this point
with CBD products.
And so they did some studies.
Was it a year or two ago wherethey tested a lot of different
CBD products and they found most, if not all, of them also had
(50:00):
THC in them as well.
They weren't pure CBD.
And that's where our pets canget into problems, because when
they say gosh, they got into CBD.
This shouldn't be an issue, buthe's acting like he has
marijuana poisoning.
It's typically because it's nota pure product.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
And then, just out of curiosity, the cases where
there is, you know,unfortunately a lethal kind of
result from the ingestion.
Is that normally because, likewith something like an opioid,
like morphine, it's breathingdepression?
What does that look like for afatal THC toxicity?
Is that normally just the lowblood pressure or low heart rate
(50:38):
, just like system?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
shutdown.
Yeah, so this last one that wehad and I'm not sure if he did
die he was probably the closestto dying that I've managed in
quite a while and he wascompletely comatose,
unresponsive, completelyunresponsive.
His body temperature wasextremely low.
(51:00):
Even with efforts to get hisbody temperature up, he wasn't
able to they weren't able to gethis body temperature up to a
healthy state and his bloodpressure was extremely low and
he was having heart arrhythmiasas well and he was not
responding well to the therapy.
He wasn't responding well tomedications to increase his
(51:22):
blood pressure or to stop thearrhythmias, and so he was in,
he was in the clinic.
I think he was in the clinic.
When I talked with him, he wasin there for his second or third
day.
Most of these guys go home after12 or 24 hours, so usually when
they require hospitalizationit's not a prolonged period of
(51:44):
time.
But this guy was in, he was ina specialty practice, they had
the means to do everything kindof necessary for him and he just
was not responding to thetherapy.
And that, unfortunately, issomething that can happen,
because sometimes owners aren'table to financially be able to
do everything for their pet, andthen other times you can do
(52:07):
everything for your pet and it'sstill not.
It's still not be enough tosave them.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
So garlic?
I know this is hotly debated.
So In the holistic communitythere are people that recommend
providing garlic as an optionfor natural parasite prevention,
Under very strictrecommendations of cut it up,
wait about 10 or 15 minutes andthen offer it, and then there's
(52:33):
guidelines.
But I know as a conventionalveterinarian I was taught that
garlic is toxic period.
It was very clear to me thatthere was not this room to be
able to provide it in a certainkind of format or presentation,
and I'm wondering if that comesback to us lumping it with
onions, because that it seemslike the toxicities for those
(52:55):
two are actually more differentthan people discuss or believe.
But I was wondering if youcould talk about that, because I
know garlic has been a bigtopic, at least in social media
feeding garlic to dogs and cats.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, so it's our understanding that the
mechanisms are fairly similar.
It's the sulfur changes thatcause homolysis to occur to the
red blood cells.
Dogs and cats are actually moresensitive to garlic than they
are to onion, and so in myopinion, it'll be the debate
(53:32):
again.
It's probably one of thosethings where, depending on what
your experience is if you've hadgood experience using it or not
, so we know that there's anestablished toxic dose for
onions and for garlic and forthey are extremely more
sensitive than onions, and for acat, just to kind of throw it
(53:55):
out, it's like three to fivegrams per kilogram.
Is is a toxic dose for cats andthat's a decent amount of garlic
that has to be given in thefresh form.
But if you were to take that andput that into a garlic powder,
where it's so much moresensitive, it's a very, very
small amount that they wouldneed.
(54:17):
And we don't have a lot ofanimals that get into enough of
the fresh onion, but some thatdo get into enough of the fresh
garlic, but more so those thatare getting into, like our onion
powders and garlic powders,because it's so concentrated
those are often the ones wherewe start to see the most
(54:40):
severely affected from them.
I am kind of of the school ofknowing what that can cause in
my pet.
I typically would avoid it.
But I think if you're stayingagain, the dose makes the poison
.
And if you're recommending anamount that's well below the
toxic dose, is it necessarilyproblematic?
(55:03):
Probably if you feed it on aneveryday basis, but if it's a
once here and there and it maynot be detrimental to them to
have it.
As long as you're staying belowthat well below that toxic dose
and I'm not sure how muchthey're using in the holistic
(55:24):
world as far as an amount, whatkind of dosing they're using for
that?
Speaker 3 (55:28):
So kind of what spurred this for me was my own
dog got into she's 13.
And she decided that she wantedto get into a bag of fertilizer
that had been in our yard fortwo years.
So I called the poison helpline.
I stepped into a pet parent'sshoes and I was freaking out and
I had the nicest toxicologisthelp me.
And when I was talking to herbecause I let her know I was a
(55:51):
practitioner she mentionedsomething that I thought was
fascinating.
So it was in regards to jointsupplements and the issue with
manganese toxicity.
And I had no, I would havenever even thought of that.
I mean, in general, whenever apet eats too much of anything, I
tell people just play it safeand call a poison hotline.
(56:14):
But I was wondering if youcould share, even just briefly,
like any of the oddballtoxicities that maybe are a
little bit more we should bemore aware of than we are,
because I would never havethought of joint supplements and
that specific toxicity, butjust anything that we normally
are giving our pets.
I know if they're eating toomuch, of course there can be a
toxic level, but just any of theones that you've seen.
(56:38):
That maybe even took you bysurprise, or it would be nice
for pet parents to just keep inmind.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, and I think some of them are still common
ones that we get calls on.
So the like grapes and raisins.
A lot of people don't know thatgrapes and raisins are
problematic.
When I was in practice, I had aclient that that's the only way
she gave her pet medicationevery single day was putting it
through into a grape, and thedog did fine.
And so it's the dose makes thepoison.
(57:06):
There's individualsensitivities, but a lot of
people don't aren't aware withgosh.
Grapes are healthy, raisins arehealthy for us to eat, and so
that's one that I think a lot ofpeople don't know about.
We talked about xylitol.
That's one that a lot of peoplejust aren't aware of.
When you because it makes senseto not be aware of it.
When you think about all theother artificial sweeteners or
(57:28):
sugar alcohols that are outthere, xylitol is the only one
we care about.
It's the only one that is goingto be problematic, and so
that's something that I think isa surprise to people.
The onions and garlic, you knowyou're bringing that up again.
I think it's a surprise.
A lot of people don't don'trealize that that could be an
issue.
And then I think painmedications pain medications are
(57:52):
really a surprise to to petparents.
So we will get calls from petparents who, again with the best
of intentions, have givenibuprofen or naproxen or some
other type of human antiinflammatory for their pets pain
, and then they they they'rereally thinking about the dosing
or the amount or thesensitivity of it, and then
(58:15):
these guys are, you know,they're coming in and they've
got stomach ulcerations andthey're in kidney failure.
And this is happening withpharmacists and human physicians
and nurses and pet parents whodon't have a medical background,
because they they are.
They aren't expecting it to besuch a difference between dogs
and cats and humans, and so Ithink that's a really big
(58:38):
surprise for a lot of them.
Speaker 3 (58:42):
My last many questions, because you brought
up grapes.
Do we know the toxic component,like what part of the grape
it's in, because I know for awhile we didn't, but I've heard
recently that perhaps there'smore information that's
available.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, so there was a paper published last year that
was potentially linking tartaricacid, which is an ingredient in
grapes and raisins, as beingthe component.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done to be for us to
be able to say that's what itis.
If I remember correctly, thepaper was was comparing three
(59:18):
cases and so we kind of need alittle bit more.
In the paper stated you know,we need more research before we
can really say that's what it is.
I think a lot of people havetaken that paper and really run
with it and say this is what thecause of it is.
It might be very well, might be, but there's also a chance that
(59:38):
we that it's coincidental andwe still don't know what it is.
We know that line is usuallynot going to be an issue and
grape juice is usually not goingto be an issue.
So things that have been kindof processed aren't as big of a
concern, but grapes and raisinseven.
You know, some people think ifyou raise them bread wouldn't be
(01:00:00):
a concern because it's heated.
The downside is that, yes, ifit is tartaric acid, heat can.
Heat can destabilize that, butwe don't know what that
temperature is, and so there'sstill a.
There's still a risk, even ifit's, you know, even if it's a
baked product.
So we usually because theoutcome is fatal, the outcome is
(01:00:21):
irreversible kidney failure wetypically still treat them
pretty, pretty cautiously.
So we have a campaign calledtoxin tails and it's we send out
a press release every month andsomething that we use.
It's an educational campaign tohelp parents become more aware
of different toxins that are outthere, as well as the
(01:00:42):
veterinary community, and thegood news about toxin tails is
that they all have a happyending and so it's a great story
if you want to feel good and itkind of be excited about these
animals that have had.
Some of them maybe have had anear death experience in the
sense of being extremely ill.
Some of them had just a closecall where maybe they weren't as
(01:01:06):
effective but they were in.
The story was great andsomething to get out there and
it might be.
It might be something likexylitol or we had a dog that
ingested a fit bit and the owneridentified, figured out which
dog got into it, because shetook each one of them for a trip
around the block and foundwhich one was still tracking
(01:01:27):
because her fit that was stilltracking on her.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
I know it's not funny at all, but I just can't help
it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
It is, yeah, it's a great story.
He did have to have it removed,but he did extremely well.
So it's just little storieslike that, and so we like to
highlight the work that theveterinary clinics are doing to
save these animals lives on adaily basis and just to educate
the pet owners and the in thepublic in general on different
(01:01:57):
toxin concerns.
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
That's fantastic.
All right well.
Thank you, dr Schmidt and DrLindsay.
I appreciate both of you todayand have a wonderful holiday
season.
We're heading into the thick ofit.
Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for your time and your
expertise.
Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Thank you so much for the invitation.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We're talking about toxicity inour animals and our pets,
specifically dogs.
Since this is a dog podcast, Doyou want to introduce yourself
a tad and let?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
us know a little bit.
Yeah, you bet, I'm ReneeSchmidt.
I'm a veterinary toxicologistwith Pet Poison Helpline.
I've been with Pet PoisonHelpline for just over 10 years
now and also the manager ofveterinary medicine and
professional services there.
I'm a Kansas State graduate,very proud Kansas State graduate
, and I've been.
You know, toxicology wassomething that I never really
(00:35):
had a huge passion for when Iwas in vet school or out in
practice.
I always kind of enjoyed it,but as time went on I found that
it really allowed the blendingof the things that I like to do
and solving all the pieces ofthe puzzle, putting the pieces
of the puzzle together and whenanimals get into things.
So it's been a very enjoyablesector of veterinary medicine.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That's fantastic.
I wanted to focus today, justright now, specifically have
some questions.
Since we're jumping into theholidays, I wanted to talk a
little bit about some of thethings that you find that pets
may get into over the holidayseason and if you see an uptick
in cases during this time ofyear versus during other times
(01:19):
of year.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, absolutely so.
November and December aregenerally our busiest two months
out of the year with call, andso we definitely see a pretty
large uptick in those two monthsand it varies from just the
regular things that animalsgenerally kind of get into.
But when we step back and wethink about it, as you know pet
(01:43):
owners and family members we'rekind of a little bit
discombobulated.
These last couple of months ofthe year We've got changes to
our schedule.
We have a lot of differentthings going on.
So maybe even the most in tunepet parents or maybe somebody
who is really diligent aboutkeeping things out of reach for
their pets and they just kind ofget off kilter a little bit and
(02:05):
so they might leave somethingsitting out.
Or when we have house guests, alot of times there's a lot of
traveling going on and so whenyou have somebody that's coming
over to your house and visitingand they have that suitcase or
that bag on the floor and theirmedications are there and then
the animal gets into it, soreally common things in that
manner that we see a little bitcalls from that animals have
(02:26):
gotten into.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I just had.
My mom was just here last weekfor the week and I had to keep
repeatedly reminding her to puther medication on top of on the
kitchen counter, not like nextto her bed, and get the stuff
off the floor constantly.
Luckily my dog could care lessabout that stuff, but still it's
.
You know, you never know, soshe's just not used to it.
(02:47):
Yeah, you never know.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, you never know.
My kind of phrase for theholiday is to anybody who's
coming over to your house, youknow, ask them right away do you
have any medications?
Let's put it up in a counter orup in a cabinet for you,
absolutely To get it out of theway so it doesn't even become an
issue.
And even supplements.
You know a lot of people.
They think that if it's overthe counter and it's a healthy
(03:11):
supplement for them, it'shealthy for their pets as well.
So they don't think about thedog that maybe gets into a
bottle of multivitamins or abottle of their vitamin D3
supplements.
And so even any little thingthat a person might take,
whether it be prescriptionmedication or just a natural
supplement, let's get it off thefloor.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Let's make sure it's out of reach, make sure there's
no risk at all, even if we don'treally know Are there common
things that dogs get into overthe holidays, that we need to be
prepared, or should we justcross the board?
Just make sure everything isout of your pets reach, just to
be cautious.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, you know, for human medications for sure, you
know, obviously let's make surethose are out of reach.
Chocolate they love to get intochocolate all of the time, but
Christmas time is actually theholiday where we see the highest
number of calls with animalsgetting into chocolate and I
think it's just one.
Because of parties andcelebrations, people are baking
(04:08):
more.
They're getting gifts, bakedgoods, they're putting chocolate
products under the tree.
You know there's just a lotmore out there for them to get
into and so we see that timequite a bit.
And then also around theholidays, and really all year
round, but the holidays as well,the lilies so true lilies that
we have to be concerned aboutwith cats.
(04:29):
There's a lot of holidaydecorations.
When you order a nice beautifulholiday centerpiece that will
have the nice large, brilliantwhite lilies that are in there,
those are usually going to betrue lilies and can cause kidney
failure in cats and we seethose.
You know, valentine's Day,mother's Day, they're all around
(04:50):
, but we can't forget about thatin the Christmas time as well,
and then anything that couldpotentially contain xylitol, so
any of those food productsduring your baking time.
If you are somebody who usesxylitol instead of sugar, be
sure and really keep that out ofreach for your pet, an animal
(05:10):
that gets into pure xylitol youknow baking powder.
It takes a very, very smallamount for them to have
significant issues.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And what do those issues like?
What do those issues look like?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, so if they were to get into xylitol they can
have a drop in blood sugar, andso with that drop in blood sugar
, called hypoglycemia, they candevelop kind of difficulty
walking a taxia, they're prettysluggish, they can even have
tremors and seizures occurringand then, if they get into a
(05:44):
large enough amount which,depending on the size of the dog
, may still be very little theycan actually have liver failure
and they can die from liverfailure.
And some signs of that wouldalso be vomiting, maybe some
yellow discoloration to theirgums and to their eyes and skin.
If that happens they'veprobably been sick quite a bit
(06:06):
before the pet owner sees that,but they're just really off and
significantly lethargic orsluggish.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
How long does it take for that to kick in, like
immediately, he was saying, orlike hours, or yeah yeah, so
they can start to vomit withinabout 30 minutes after getting
into xylitol.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Their blood sugar can drop in that timeframe, but
usually within the first twohours and it can last.
They can have that low bloodsugar for up to two days in some
cases and then the liverchanges.
We can see blood work changeswithin just a couple of hours,
but liver failure itself usuallyit's gonna be around that 24
(06:50):
hours or the day after they'vegotten into it.
The good news I would say aboutxylitol I know we're just
talking mainly about dogs, butfor anyone who has multi pets or
has some cats in the household,cats don't have an issue with
xylitol and so it's really thatbig concern with dogs and I
(07:10):
always like to call if you havean assassin cat in your
household, so the one that likesto be on the countertop and
knock things over for the dog inhopes of being the only pet in
the household, and just to beaware of that.
Not a concern for cats, butdefinitely the dogs we have to
be really concerned with.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
And then this is more of a technical question, but I
actually I was not aware that itwas only a toxicity for dogs.
What is the underlying?
I guess like pathology behindthat.
Cause usually cats are moresensitive.
Yeah, isn't that?
Yeah, cats rarely.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Cats rarely draw the long straw.
They usually get the shortstraw on a lot of things and we
don't know why.
We don't know why cats areaffected differently and it's
actually very species specificwith xylitol.
So cattle have a toxicity toxylitol, but it's a much larger
(08:07):
amount and how they would beexposed to it would be very
minimal or rare.
There's been studies that weredone way back in like the 60s
and 70s where they looked atcattle and pigs and horses and
rabbits and you know they allhave some degree of toxicity but
the amount that they would needto get into is very different
(08:27):
and we don't know why cats areresistant to it.
But it's one of those thingswhere it's like embrace, we'll
embrace it for those cat loversout there Definitely.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
And then I know one thing that I've been seeing a
lot more xylitol being in peanutbutter.
So can you speak to that too,cause that's been, it seems,
like more of a trend, so thatpeople can't just necessarily
grab any peanut butter off theshelf.
They really need to be readingthe label.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, and you know we used to think back.
You know, years ago we wouldsay if it says it's sugar free,
look for xylitol.
And now there's xylitol in alot of products that don't say
anything about being sugar free,and there's even products that
contain xylitol and sugar, andso now it's anything that would
(09:15):
potentially require a flavor inthe mouth.
Look for xylitol is what I kindof say it's.
Don't stop at sugar free, don'tmake an assumption anywhere one
way or the other.
And as far as the peanut buttergoes, so far we have not found
any what I call mainstreampeanut butter.
So if you were to go to themain aisles of your grocery
(09:36):
store and get either the thegrocery store brand or, you know
, some of those like Jiff andSkippy's, I haven't so far seen
xylitol, even with their lowsugar natural products.
Most of them are in I call themthe boutique brands.
So the you know kind of go inthat whole food section.
Maybe they're more of theorganic, they're kind of those
(09:58):
specialty brands and that'swhere we could potentially see
more xylitol.
That being said, I would alwayslook, you know, check.
If you're going to give xylitolpeanut butter to your dog, make
sure, check you, check thebottle, because manufacturers
can change their ingredients atany time, but so far, most of
that's going to be thosespecialty brands.
(10:19):
There are some peanut butterspreads that have different
flavors, different types offlavors, not just peanut butter
flavor, and so those are some ofthe ones that we're starting to
see xylitol in as well.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Wow, can I circle back to holidays really quickly
one more time?
Yeah, point setters, are theytoxic to dogs?
I have a dog care business, soI have dogs in and out of here
and I want to decorate for theholidays, but I'm always really
cautious, as you mentioned, andI've read Nick's things.
So what's your take?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
on that yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, so by definition.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
point setters are toxic because they create a
negative effect when they'rewhen they're invested, the good
news is is that they causestomach upset.
Okay.
So they're not going to be.
They're not going to be fatal,unless let's say that that very
rare dog that maybe keeps eatingand eating and eating the point
(11:16):
that is and is vomiting anddiarrhea and becoming dehydrated
and the owner isn't noticing itand isn't seeking treatment,
you know something like thatwhere they're having some some
other effects from it.
But otherwise usually it's justgoing to be some mild stomach
upset, maybe some vomiting,maybe some loose stool.
Usually it's going to correctitself on its own.
(11:38):
So I wouldn't hesitate to put apoint set in my house.
So I have dogs and cats and Iwon't hesitate to put it in
there.
But if one of them just refusesto stop eating it, I may try to
put it up higher, just becauseI don't want the mess, but I
it's not something that we wouldever expect to be fatal.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
That's good, good to know.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Another holiday decoration.
Oh sorry, Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
No, it's probably the biggest holiday myth.
Okay good, I'm glad I yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, I mean, I don't want stomach upset in any of my
guys either.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
You know, but, but, at least I know.
I'm not, you know, putting themin danger.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, and I treat them very differently as opposed
to like the lilies, the truelilies.
If you have a cat in your house, I would.
I would not have a, I would nothave a true lily with cats in
the house and I love lilies.
They're beautiful flowers.
But if you're going to have acat in the house, keep the
lilies away.
Point set is I have at it, Putthem in there.
But if the dog or cat continuesto chew on it, need on it and
(12:42):
have stomach upset, then try toput it someplace.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That makes it more difficult to get.
Dr Lindsey, you had anotherholiday question.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
I was going to say other decorations, so, like I've
heard you, plants, and thenalso I was wondering if you
could address like Christmastrees, because I know they can
be a toppling issue, but whatabout the water?
Or like licking the resin orthe sap, or any other plants
that tend to be more holiday?
Yeah, yeah you bet.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
So you plants Japanese use are probably the
most common in the United States, and a lot of times they are
used to build to make wreathsfor garland, just because of
their availability, theirdurability, and so you may have
a wreath in your house a livewreath that actually isn't made
(13:29):
of like pine or fir but is madeof you, and that's something
that's very toxic.
It contains what we callcardiac glycosides.
So these are heart toxins.
They cause heart blood pressure, heart rate arrhythmias, rhythm
issues, and can definitely befatal.
So that would probably be oneas well that if I had a dog or a
(13:52):
cat in the household, I wouldwatch my wreath carefully to
make sure that if it starts todie and fall you know, fall down
that night I take care of it atthat point.
And then and then the Christmastree.
So the Christmas tree has, youknow, come is some essential
oils, and the sap that's inthere can be very irritating to
(14:14):
the stomach and the intestinaltract.
The water itself isn't usuallygoing to be much of an issue.
The little fertilizer or plantfood, tree food that gets poured
in there, that usually is not abig issue either, if they get
into a little bit of that whereit becomes more problematic is
(14:35):
depending on how you care forthe tree and what you read.
Some people will put aspirin intheir, in their tree water, and
so that is definitelyproblematic, more so for cats,
and when I think about the treestand and the tree water
underneath the tree.
My dog can't get to it but mycats sure can, and so that's
(14:58):
something to be to be cautiousof as far as that goes.
But the tree itself, the pineneedles or the fur needles or
whatever they're ingesting,those are definitely irritating
and if they can ingest enough ofthem could potentially cause an
obstruction if they, you know,if they're really going to town
on it.
But not a huge concern as faras toxicity goes.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay, can I?
I want to circle back again.
Again I'm circling back.
I want to focus on chocolatebecause I I've also heard mixed
things about chocolate.
Is it that it's different kindsof chocolate that can cause an
issue?
The amount of chocolate?
I've certainly had dogs who'vehad like a chocolate chip cookie
and they were and I wasfreaking out and they were
completely fine.
(15:42):
My sister's dog has eatenbatches of chocolate chip
cookies and had to have hisstomach pumped like maybe three
or four times during thislifetime Just to be safe.
He was definitely like a youknow counter surfer.
But can we kind of cause that'sa really common toxin in our
pets and then we hear a lotabout it?
(16:03):
Can we really kind of dive intothat and talk about some of the
best of some of the realitiesand what we need to look for.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Absolutely so with chocolate, and this is goes for
dogs or cats, so whichever, ifyou have a mixed household, it
works for either animal.
It really is going to depend onseveral things, like you
mentioned.
How much did they get into?
Because in toxicology the dosemakes the poison, and so while
something may be toxic, there'salways an amount that needs to
(16:35):
be ingested or exposed to beforeit's actually an issue.
And then we have to think aboutwhat kind of chocolate.
So you alluded to that as well.
If easy kind of rule of thumb, Ithink about the less sweet
chocolates, the more concerningthey are.
So there's a component inchocolate that's called
(16:56):
theobromine, and that's thebiggest concern.
It also contains caffeine, butsmall amounts, and so we don't
usually get too worried aboutthat.
It's the theobromine portionthat's more problematic, and so
the the higher percentage oflike real chocolate, full
chocolate, is going to be moreconcerning.
So think about your baker'schocolate, or maybe you're 90%
(17:19):
and higher, dark chocolate, cowsor pure chocolate, pure cacao,
think about your semi sweetchocolates, and then kind of,
we're going to go down fromthere.
So we have dark chocolate indifferent percentages, and I
think in order to be named adark chocolate, if I remember
right it needs to be around 50or 52% cacao or dark chocolate
(17:41):
cacao, but there's different,there's varying percentages, and
so that's going to vary theamount of theobromine that's in
there.
And then work our way down tomilk chocolate that's nice and
sweet, and then go to whitechocolate, which really just has
some cocoa butter in it, notmuch theobromine at all.
And so if you were to take a 10pound dog that ingested one
(18:03):
Hershey kiss versus a 10 pounddog that ingested the same
amount of baker's chocolate,could have very different
effects with that.
So one Hershey kiss in a dogprobably not going to be a big
issue, but that same amount in a100% pure chocolate or baker's
(18:23):
chocolate could definitely be aconcern in our small dogs, and
so the weight of the dog isgoing to really make that issue,
make that change ordetermination as well.
So how much can they get into?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
that makes sense and does it present itself the same
way?
The the, the, the effects ofthe toxicity, like vomiting,
diarrhea or what does that looklike.
So people can get into that.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah you bet.
So what I suggest is, you know,call us, call us before
panicking.
Call us before taking mattersinto your own hands.
We unfortunately get calls fromextremely well meaning pet
owners that actually cause moreharm with trying to treat the
pet and then calling us and wehave to say well, what they got
(19:09):
into isn't problematic, but whatyou've done is, and so now you
do need to go into that, intothe veterinarian.
But I would say that you knowanything over that Hershey kiss.
You know, let's call and see,because what we can do is we can
do calculations to determine,based on what it is that they
got into and based on their petsize, how problematic is this
(19:30):
going to be?
And there's kind of differentlayers of chocolate poisoning
that we get concerned with.
So any animal that gets intochocolate can develop stomach
upset because it's a, it's a,it's a rich food, and so they
may vomit, they may have someloose stool, they could even
develop pancreatitis, so aninflammation of the pancreas
because they're trying to digestthis rich food.
(19:52):
And that doesn't even have tobe a toxic level, that can be a
small amount.
And then, as they ingest moreof that, then we can see a high
heart rate.
We can see a high bloodpressure.
They're antsy, they're agitated, they're kind of, you know,
restless, they're kind ofbouncing around a lot.
Maybe they have some bodytremors.
(20:12):
As this keeps going up, we cansee some heart rhythm problems
and changes.
We can see seizures developing.
It definitely can be fataldepending on how much they get
into.
Fortunately, I think pet ownersknow a lot about chocolate in
the sense of this could be bad,and they recognize minds and
they get therapy.
(20:32):
Most animals, if they gettreated for early on, do
extremely well.
We've had cases thatunfortunately don't go as well,
are usually ones where they justthey, they waited it out, and
so then it was too long to doany type of kind of
decontamination or trying totrying to get rid of some of
that chocolate that they'veingested and then they end up
(20:55):
having some really significantsigns.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Okay, one thing I actually wanted to ask you.
So I know, as a veterinarian,because I used to practice
emergency medicine, I becamevery used to calling you all for
many cases, but I also hadaccess to a calculator where I
myself could determine okay,this is the amount of chocolate
that they ate, this is theirweight.
What range of concern is thisin?
(21:20):
Are there any resources likethat available to pet parents so
that you know, especiallyduring the holidays when I know
you know pet poison hot likelike you get inundated with
calls so sometimes the waittimes can be long.
Are there other options for petparents as a resource?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
You know that's a great question and I'm not.
I don't know of any that areout there available.
You know that calculator andthere's one that's you know it's
limited to veterinary membersof a particular organization for
continuing education and thingsthat's available.
I'm not aware of one that's outthere for pet parents
(21:58):
themselves, and you couldcertainly go to our website,
just petpoisonhelplinecom.
You could type in chocolate andthere's some information there
that kind of helps guide you asto what kind they got into and
things like that, but I'm notsure it's going to actually do
kind of the calculations for you.
The one thing that I would alsomention is that there are a lot
(22:21):
of you know there's a lot ofdifferent technology out there
now.
There's AI, there's a lot ofchat places where you can chat
in and ask questions, and Iwould really encourage everyone
to use caution with those.
We've played around with them,we've tested them.
A lot of it is not right.
Some of it is accurate.
(22:42):
It's difficult for a pet ownerto know what's right and what
isn't, because the answer that'sgiven is very confident, and so
it's really something where Iwould highly encourage someone
to contact their veterinarian.
If they're not available,contact an animal poison control
center, like pet poison helpline, and really get the
(23:03):
information that you need.
And I know there's a fee and alot of people are hesitant to
pay the fee, but let's get theright information.
If we can save you a trip intothe emergency clinic, if we can
save you from getting additionalcare, you know it's well worth
the money and the peace of mind.
In my opinion.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
As an emergency veterinarian, I know for me when
people would come in.
Despite what the patient mighthave eaten, I oftentimes would
call a poison hotline so that Icould have guidance on how to
treat and to give them moreinformation.
So one thing I startedencouraging a lot of pet parents
to do is if they can call whenthey're on their way to the
emergency hospital so that wecan then take that case number,
(23:44):
call and have more immediateattention.
So, I was wondering if there'sany other kind of tips that you
have for pet parents Like I know.
Another one I used to tellpeople is whatever they eat,
grab the packaging, grab yourpet, get in the car and start
driving to the emergencyhospital If you can safely call
while you're on your way.
But are there any other kind oftips or tricks that we can do
(24:04):
to make our jobs together easierand then increase the rate of
care that they're receiving?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, you bet.
So your tips are excellent anda lot of times if that pet owner
or pet parent can call whenthey're in route or before
they've left their home and wemay be able to save them the
trip from going in and sayyou're OK to wait, or maybe they
didn't think about grabbingthat packaging.
Or maybe we get plenty of callswhere they leave in a panic,
(24:36):
and I would do the same thingwhen something happens with my
pets.
I am no longer a veterinarian,I am a panicked, concerned owner
and the logic kind of flies outthe window because there are
family members and so we'rereally concerned about them and
so it's very normal for petowners to panic.
But that's probably my firsttip is to say don't panic, take
(24:58):
a step, take a breath and reallythink about gather all of that
packaging.
As you said, if there'smedication, if there's pills
that are strung out on the floor, grab as many as you can.
Try to get as much informationabout the exposure as possible.
So when you go to yourveterinarian, if you tell them
that your pet ingested somegreen rat bait, it's not going
(25:23):
to guide them into what needs tobe done, and I think that's
another kind of commonmisconception is people often
think that rat baits have thesame treatment, same active
ingredients, and they don't.
They have very differentmechanisms and very different
outcomes.
And so just finding all of thatinformation that you can to
either give to your veterinarianor to give to pet poison
(25:44):
helpline so that we can makethat best assessment.
It's very natural for pet ownersto be a little bit discouraged
when they call in because theysay all I know is that they got
into bait and you should help meknow what this is.
And unfortunately we kind ofneed some more information.
And so if they can have somepackaging available to them, if
(26:06):
we can know how much it is thatthey got into, if they got into
that bottle of ibuprofen, whatwas it to begin with?
How many was in there to beginwith?
How long have you been using it?
Or prescription medications.
Sometimes we send those ownersback into their pharmacy and say
we'll find out what thatmilligram strength was when it
(26:26):
was filled.
How many times are you takingit a day to try and get an idea
as to how much is there?
And so those are all thingsthat can be very helpful at
determining what it is that, ifit's going to be an issue or not
, what it is that they got intoand how much of a problem it is.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
If I can share a story.
I had a client who, when he wasfive, we were not 100% sure
what he ate.
It was incredibly scary.
We were pretty sure it was ratbait.
He ended up in the emergencyvet for nearing three weeks.
He was a rare case.
They kept him there.
(27:05):
His family had lots ofresources so they opted to keep
it going and they had vetscalling from all over trying to.
You know, because it was a casestudy.
But he ended up living a long,long life.
He passed away at about 15.
But they think that it waseither rat bait or they kept
asking about vitamin D, like ifthey had eaten some like
(27:27):
cortisone, like you know, likedermatology cream or something
like that.
So it was one of the and wecouldn't no one claimed that,
but the only thing we couldthink of that he was a golden
retriever, so he got intoeverything out in the world.
So we figured he must havepicked up some sort of rat
poison.
It was really really scary.
I mean, essentially they kepthim alive while it worked
(27:49):
through his system and theyflushed it all out of his system
.
I mean it was very scary and hewas very lucky.
But we had that firsthandexperience.
So what are you saying?
That their different rat poisondoes different things?
Is that you never?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, so there's three main types of rat and
mouse baits that are sold forkind of residential use.
One of them is Koli calciferol,which is vitamin D3.
I always say I think the market,I think the marketing people
decided well, we can't call itvitamin D3 because people use it
in a supplement, so let's callit by its other name, koli
(28:27):
calciferol.
But they're the same thing andtakes a very small amount to be
problematic for dogs or cats andthis will cause high calcium,
blood calcium levels, which thencan cause damage to multiple
organs, including the sensitivekidneys, and can cause kidney
failure to occur.
So that's probably why theythought it was either a rat bait
(28:51):
or a vitamin D supplement,because the effects are the same
.
And then one of the other typesof rodenticide would be
bromethylene, and bromethylenecauses brain swelling to occur,
so it causes neurologic issuescompletely different than Koli
calciferol, and the amount thatthe animal has to get into is
(29:11):
different than Koli calciferol.
And then the most what we calltraditional, the ones that
people think about mostfrequently, are the
anticoagulants.
Those are the ones that causebleeding issues to occur.
There's multiple differentactive ingredients in that same
class and those have been aroundthe longest for sure, but
(29:32):
they're also being phased out toan extent because of the EPA
makes decisions as to what canbe sold here and there, and
several of them have been phasedout or banned because of the
negative effects on wildlife andtrying to preserve the wildlife
population and those causebleeding issues to occur.
(29:53):
So if you think about thosethree different things, we have
calcium and kidney failure, wehave brain swelling, we have
bleeding issues.
The treatments are all going tobe very different and so if we
make an assumption that it'sthis one or that one, we will be
completely missing the boat insome of these cases.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
We got very lucky there, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
For sure.
So one thing that I have beenseeing that's gaining a lot of
popularity is there's an actualproduct that is being plugged in
many social media channels.
That's an activated charcoaland it's small little charcoal
beads and people and it has ahigh price point as well.
But people are being urged likeby this, so that if your dog
(30:38):
gets into chocolate or this orthat and they're just listing
all of these things like givethis basically insinuating to
give that and then seek outveterinary care or just give
that and kind of care for yourpet yourself.
I was curious your opinion onthat because I know as a
practitioner activated charcoalis not always recommended.
(30:59):
And then oftentimes, when theydo ingest things, we're actually
inducing vomiting.
So the concern of themaspirating or accidentally
inhaling that charcoal that thepet parent gave with good
intentions could end up causingmore damage than if they would
have just waited and pursuedtreatment through a veterinary.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm glad you brought it up.
It is something that came outjust a couple of months ago and,
reading up on the product,there is some concern about the
way that it is marketed, as youmentioned, to give it and then
figure out what it is later.
It is charcoal doesn't bind toeverything.
(31:40):
It doesn't work for every toxinand sometimes we do want to
induce vomiting first, andsometimes we wouldn't want to
give charcoal even if it doesn'twork.
There may be other reasons whywe wouldn't want to give it, and
so I think it's a great productin the sense that if an owner
(32:00):
doesn't have another resource,maybe there's three hours away
from a clinic.
We've talked to pet owners whothey live on an island and the
ferry isn't coming untiltomorrow or it's a blizzard and
they cannot get out, and sobeing guided to do that is
(32:20):
something that there coulddefinitely be benefit for.
But I am a bit concerned withusing that first off.
Personally, as a veterinarytoxicologist, I would never give
my pet charcoal before knowingif it is necessary or doing
anything else first.
So I would encourage petparents who have that, or if
(32:44):
they're considering that, talkwith your veterinarian first.
Talk with pet poison helpline.
First talk with the experts,find out what needs to be done
and if it should be even given.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
On those same lines.
What about the hydrogen?
I think it's hydrogen peroxide.
At times when some of myclients have had eaten chocolate
or chocolate cookies, I've hadtheir parents text me instead of
texting the vet, for whateverreason, and say maybe I should
(33:17):
give the pomeo hydrogen peroxide.
What are your thoughts on that?
Is that a good thing?
Is it a bad thing?
Is it depends on the situation?
Oh yeah, it's both.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah Well, in my opinion, I think that hydrogen
peroxide is a very polarizingtopic in toxicology.
You'll have veterinarians whowill be for it and you'll have
veterinarians who will beabsolutely against it.
I respect both.
I feel that it's good to have ahealthy disagreement with it.
I would say that we, clinically, we have been able to prevent
(33:52):
animals from developingpoisoning or clinical signs.
We've been able to prevent themfrom having to go into the
clinic if necessary, where itwouldn't have.
We've been able to do thingswith dogs by recommending
hydrogen peroxide.
That being said, we check everybox.
The animal needs to be theright breed.
(34:15):
It needs to be.
The timing needs to be right.
The health of the animal needsto be right.
The thing that they ingestedneeds to be right.
We would never just givehydrogen peroxide for the fun of
it, but we really have to checkthe boxes.
We never give hydrogen peroxidein a cat period.
There's no time where we wouldever do that, because they are
(34:38):
very sensitive.
They don't handle it very well.
When we think about hydrogenperoxide, the way it works is
it's a stomach irritant.
It's going to irritate the wallof the stomach and that's what
causes that vomiting to happen.
Cats it causes.
It can cause some ulcerationsand more and kind of worsening
(35:00):
issues.
It can happen in dogs.
It's unlikely.
It's less likely to occur ifyou use a specific dosing.
We never want to give hydrogenperoxide until they vomit.
We definitely have had callswhere people have said I don't
know, I just poured hydrogenperoxide down my dog and he
didn't vomit.
(35:20):
Those are ones that areconcerning that are going to
develop issues.
When I tell a pet parent abouthydrogen peroxide, I would say
never give it on your own, giveit under the direction of a
veterinarian or a toxicologyexpert.
They're going to check theboxes and say, yes, your pet
would probably benefit from that.
(35:41):
There's a lot of times wherewe've gotten that call within
five or 10 minutes.
They've given hydrogen peroxide.
Whatever it is that they gotinto, come right back up and
we've saved the animal.
There's times when inducingvomiting at home with hydrogen
peroxide would not be ideal andthey would need to go into the
clinic.
I have great respect for peoplewho disagree and say it should
(36:04):
never be given and that's okay.
But I know that for us, out ofthe hundreds of thousands of
millions of cases that we'vemanaged, the number of animals
who have had negative effects isextremely low in comparison
with the number of animals thathave benefited from it.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
As a follow up on that.
We've talked about charcoal,we've talked about hydrogen
peroxide.
Are there any items or toolsthat pet parents can have on
hand at home to help evencalling into pet poison helpline
that can help them better treattheir pet if they're not able
to get to about, like you weresaying, if they're far away or
(36:46):
just a half on hand, Is thereanything that you would
recommend that they keep at home?
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, that's a tough question for cats, unfortunately
probably not.
There's really nothing thereunless they get into something
that can cause corrosive issuesor ulcerations, burns.
Then certainly just using waterto irrigate and flush or
something in their eye.
For dogs, really, that hydrogenperoxide that should be
(37:14):
unexpired and fresh is somethingthat is probably good to have
on hand.
Obviously, something to justwater and diluting, depending on
what they get into.
Sometimes, not very often butthere's a few things that we
might recommend giving a littlebit of milk to to help.
I would also say, if you'regoing to have xylitol in the
(37:36):
household, let's make sure thatmaybe you have a caro syrup or
even pancake syrup or somethinglike that, so that if the animal
does get into it, you can givesome type of a heavy glucose
source or sugar source to helpminimize that risk of that low
blood pressure from occurringbefore you get them into the
(37:57):
clinic.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
How much would honey work for that I?
Was going to say how much wouldyou give of that to help
counteract that, like atablespoon or something, or it
just depends on the animal.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
It depends on the size of the dog.
A lot of times I'll say justrub it on their gums.
Just rub a little bit on theirgums.
If they're starting to showsigns where they're wobbly and
they're losing their footing,then try to give a little bit
more with that while you're inroute to the clinic.
I kind of say take that withyou so that as things change
(38:32):
because xylitol does work soquickly- I was going to ask
would honey work as well, justin a pinch?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Is that an option?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, so you could use honey.
We typically say don't usehoney and dogs that are like
less than six months of age andjust there's always that
botulism concern.
So you could definitely usehoney if you needed to just a
little bit along the gums.
But caro syrup is probably theone that we say that reach for
first if you have it.
If you're not in a householdthat bakes and most people don't
(39:03):
have caro syrup around, so thenI say, grab the pancake syrup.
Or even if you just have some alittle bit of sugar and you
have nothing else that you cando, just some of the granules of
the sugar, just anything to tryand help get some glucose
absorbed, to help with that.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
Can you talk a little bit more about the botulism?
Sorry, I know that it was kindof a passing pattern but I don't
think that's something thatmost people know about, so it
might just be.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, I think there's .
You know, when you think aboutinfants, they recommend avoiding
making sure that honey isn'tused at a certain age, just
because they can be at a higherrisk of that.
And so I think we try to justgive that same, that we just
kind of put that same concernover on the animals, just to
make sure that that isn't.
You know, that they're oldenough and their body's healthy
(39:51):
enough that if there was anypotential risk of contamination,
that they would be able to takecare of that.
Speaker 3 (39:57):
So what I wanted to talk about next is actually kind
of leaving the holidays andwhen in the clinic.
I would love to hear youropinion on urine drug tests for
animals that do get into illicitdrugs, because that
unfortunately happens prettyfrequently on an emergency basis
.
What is the validity?
(40:18):
Because most of those tests arehuman urine drug tests.
So are those tests sensitiveenough that we should be using
them or recommending them in ourpets, or what?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
would you?
Speaker 3 (40:30):
recommend for both pet parents and practitioners.
Actually, yeah, that's a greatquestion.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
So I typically don't put a lot of weight into a urine
drug test because there's a lotof times there's a lot of
different metabolites.
So as that drug is beingprocessed and worked through the
body and metabolized throughthe body, there's different
metabolites between humans andanimals and so those urine drug
(40:58):
tests they are validated onhuman urine and they're not
validated on animal urine and soyou may have some false
positives, you may have somefalse negatives.
I generally say we're going totreat the signs.
If it looks like a duck, itwalks like a duck, it talks like
a duck, we're going to treat itas a duck.
(41:20):
And we've certainly had callswhere the urine drug test has
been positive for, let's say,methamphetamines or
methamphetamine, andmethamphetamine would give a
really high CNS or centralnervous system stimulation.
So these guys should bebouncing off the walls, they
should have a really high heartrate, a high blood pressure,
(41:41):
they should be extremelyagitated and this guy is really
subdued and he's dribbling urineand he's ataxic and so we're
going to treat him for marijuana, because that's what his signs
most likely are from, versusmethamphetamine, where he's not
showing any of those signs.
So a lot of people use them Ifthe results are accurate, then
(42:07):
it's great, but they're sounreliable that I typically say
let's just treat the signs andthat's where we all come down to
it anyways.
When that dog gets intosomething at the park and they
don't know what it is, and hestarts displaying these
particular signs, we know enoughabout what's out there and what
things can cause those signsthat we're going to treat them
(42:29):
symptomatically and supportively, really regardless of what that
test may say.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
And then you actually gave me the perfect segue,
because the next thing I wantedto talk about was THC toxicity.
So I know that obviously.
So, to give you a little bit ofbackground, I actually use
cannabis quite a bit in mypractice, obviously in a much
different way, and so what Iwill often tell people is the
reason that we see THC toxicityso much on an emergency basis is
(42:57):
because these animals aregetting into strains that have
been developed for humans thatare incredibly high THC.
They're not being used in aproper therapeutic way.
But I also have heard a lot ofdebate.
I've heard a lot ofveterinarians say that THC is
lethal, that it actually canlead to death.
At least for me, when I'velooked at the research, there's
(43:19):
actually no.
So there's something called anLD50 or a lethal dose.
There's no LD50 that's beenfound, at least for rats with
THC.
They haven't done the studieson dogs or cats, but I just
wanted you, if you don't mind,kind of speaking to that and
just any insight or opinion youhave on that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, you bet.
So there is a lethal dose indogs of three grams per kilogram
, which is, if you think, if youthink about a traditional
marijuana joint, that's a lot.
Three grams for a like a 50pound dog, that's almost 23
kilograms.
That's many ounces and ouncesof this product.
(43:57):
So, unless you're maybe a drugdealer and the dog gets into it,
probably not going to have thatmuch around, and so it's rarely
fatal.
We do have, however, calls withsome dogs that have been.
They are just extremelynegatively affected from it and
dogs have more receptors, morekind of those endocannabinoid
(44:22):
receptors, than humans do, andso they're much more sensitive
than humans and so there's notreally a good what we call a
toxic dose or what amount dothey have to get into before
they see signs.
It's very kind of individual,very variable with each dog, so
some dogs are far more sensitive, some are a little bit less,
(44:46):
but any exposure to THC or amarijuana product is potentially
likely enough to cause sometype of signs developing, and
with that we used to have ourmost common calls were from the
plant products, so thetraditional joint or the buds
that were there, and now we'reseeing a lot more edibles,
(45:07):
edibles, gummies, things thatare.
Maybe they also have chocolatein them, maybe they also have
xylitol in them, maybe they aremints, and so there's a lot of
different products that way thatwe're seeing animals getting
into.
And you bring up a good point.
As far as you know, that thecannabis plant itself, decades
ago there was a much lower THCconcentration and now the THC
(45:33):
concentration I want to say itwas maybe like 13%, 13%, 14%,
back in like the 60s and 70s,and now the plants are having
about 30% or more concentrationof THC.
So that same amount has moreTHC in it.
And then when you look about anedible, they can put in
(45:54):
whatever kind of concentrationthey want to, and so these guys
are getting into this andthey're getting significant
signs.
And the vast majority of dogsare going to be really lethargic
and sedated.
Now a lot of people laugh andsay, well, just, we're just
going to let them sleep it off,but along with that they could
have a low blood pressure, theycould have a low heart rate,
(46:16):
they could have low bodytemperature and if those things
aren't addressed, then they canactually cause negative effects
on other organs of the body.
And so I typically recommend,if an animal gets into THC is to
go in and get an examination tosee that everything's OK and
decide at that point if theyneed to be in the hospital for
(46:38):
supportive care or if they cango home and just be monitored,
because it's difficult for a petparent to know what their blood
pressure is or what their bodytemperature is and to treat
those types of things.
Then there are a small amountof dogs who will actually have
the opposite occur and they willbecome really agitated and
(46:59):
they'll have a high heart rateand a high blood pressure and
they'll need to actually besedated.
And so there are some dogs thatwork a little bit differently.
Almost most of the dogs willdribble urine, and so when you
take a pet into the veterinarianand you don't want to tell them
they got into THC, but they'redribbling urine the entire way
and they're having a hard timewalking on the cats out of the
(47:21):
bag.
So they got into THC.
No matter what you say, that'sprobably what happened.
So treatment of those isusually something that can
happen.
Fatalities are quite rare.
We've, surprisingly, have hadseveral really bad cases and if
I remember right I think theywere can't remember if they were
(47:42):
gummies or edibles that theygot into and they were just.
It was a really large amount.
So I think as we see more andmore of these gummies and
edibles going out there, we'regoing to see animals become more
and more affected.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
But yeah, I've had clients whose dogs picked up a
joint on a walk and then someonedropped their weed out in the
world.
And when they were walkingthere.
I had recently a client whosepuppy got into somebody's on a
walk and she had no idea what itwas.
Luckily it was a case to justsleep it off.
(48:15):
She did take the dog into thevet just to figure out what it
was, but it was super scary.
And then she was like sofrustrated that people just
irresponsibly toss it around andwhere your animals can get into
them.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
So yeah, yeah, and as more and more states legalize
marijuana, it's become moresocially acceptable to discuss
it and our calls.
Over the last five yearscompared to 2018, we had over a
700% increase in calls regardingmarijuana, and I think it's a
(48:50):
combination of one it is morereadily accessible, but, two,
it's more socially acceptable tosay that their pet got into it,
whereas in the past, when I wasin practice, you knew this dog
had gotten into marijuana as itcame into the clinic.
You knew it and it was likepulling teeth to get them to
come clean with it.
And now they just they'll justsay that it happened, even in
(49:13):
states where it's not legal.
So it's interesting because ofjust the differences in state
requirements, but also thedifferences in uses.
As you said, using it indifferent ways with cannabis and
CBD is a big topic ofdiscussion, and CBD in itself
(49:36):
doesn't have those psychoactiveeffects.
However, you have to be reallycareful to find pure CBD
products and there's really nogood regulations at this point
with CBD products.
And so they did some studies.
Was it a year or two ago wherethey tested a lot of different
CBD products and they found most, if not all, of them also had
(50:00):
THC in them as well.
They weren't pure CBD.
And that's where our pets canget into problems, because when
they say gosh, they got into CBD.
This shouldn't be an issue, buthe's acting like he has
marijuana poisoning.
It's typically because it's nota pure product.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
And then, just out of curiosity, the cases where
there is, you know,unfortunately a lethal kind of
result from the ingestion.
Is that normally because, likewith something like an opioid,
like morphine, it's breathingdepression?
What does that look like for afatal THC toxicity?
Is that normally just the lowblood pressure or low heart rate
(50:38):
, just like system?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
shutdown.
Yeah, so this last one that wehad and I'm not sure if he did
die he was probably the closestto dying that I've managed in
quite a while and he wascompletely comatose,
unresponsive, completelyunresponsive.
His body temperature wasextremely low.
(51:00):
Even with efforts to get hisbody temperature up, he wasn't
able to they weren't able to gethis body temperature up to a
healthy state and his bloodpressure was extremely low and
he was having heart arrhythmiasas well and he was not
responding well to the therapy.
He wasn't responding well tomedications to increase his
(51:22):
blood pressure or to stop thearrhythmias, and so he was in,
he was in the clinic.
I think he was in the clinic.
When I talked with him, he wasin there for his second or third
day.
Most of these guys go home after12 or 24 hours, so usually when
they require hospitalizationit's not a prolonged period of
(51:44):
time.
But this guy was in, he was ina specialty practice, they had
the means to do everything kindof necessary for him and he just
was not responding to thetherapy.
And that, unfortunately, issomething that can happen,
because sometimes owners aren'table to financially be able to
do everything for their pet, andthen other times you can do
(52:07):
everything for your pet and it'sstill not.
It's still not be enough tosave them.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
So garlic?
I know this is hotly debated.
So In the holistic communitythere are people that recommend
providing garlic as an optionfor natural parasite prevention,
Under very strictrecommendations of cut it up,
wait about 10 or 15 minutes andthen offer it, and then there's
(52:33):
guidelines.
But I know as a conventionalveterinarian I was taught that
garlic is toxic period.
It was very clear to me thatthere was not this room to be
able to provide it in a certainkind of format or presentation,
and I'm wondering if that comesback to us lumping it with
onions, because that it seemslike the toxicities for those
(52:55):
two are actually more differentthan people discuss or believe.
But I was wondering if youcould talk about that, because I
know garlic has been a bigtopic, at least in social media
feeding garlic to dogs and cats.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
Yeah, so it's our understanding that the
mechanisms are fairly similar.
It's the sulfur changes thatcause homolysis to occur to the
red blood cells.
Dogs and cats are actually moresensitive to garlic than they
are to onion, and so in myopinion, it'll be the debate
(53:32):
again.
It's probably one of thosethings where, depending on what
your experience is if you've hadgood experience using it or not
, so we know that there's anestablished toxic dose for
onions and for garlic and forthey are extremely more
sensitive than onions, and for acat, just to kind of throw it
(53:55):
out, it's like three to fivegrams per kilogram.
Is is a toxic dose for cats andthat's a decent amount of garlic
that has to be given in thefresh form.
But if you were to take that andput that into a garlic powder,
where it's so much moresensitive, it's a very, very
small amount that they wouldneed.
(54:17):
And we don't have a lot ofanimals that get into enough of
the fresh onion, but some thatdo get into enough of the fresh
garlic, but more so those thatare getting into, like our onion
powders and garlic powders,because it's so concentrated
those are often the ones wherewe start to see the most
(54:40):
severely affected from them.
I am kind of of the school ofknowing what that can cause in
my pet.
I typically would avoid it.
But I think if you're stayingagain, the dose makes the poison
.
And if you're recommending anamount that's well below the
toxic dose, is it necessarilyproblematic?
(55:03):
Probably if you feed it on aneveryday basis, but if it's a
once here and there and it maynot be detrimental to them to
have it.
As long as you're staying belowthat well below that toxic dose
and I'm not sure how muchthey're using in the holistic
(55:24):
world as far as an amount, whatkind of dosing they're using for
that?
Speaker 3 (55:28):
So kind of what spurred this for me was my own
dog got into she's 13.
And she decided that she wantedto get into a bag of fertilizer
that had been in our yard fortwo years.
So I called the poison helpline.
I stepped into a pet parent'sshoes and I was freaking out and
I had the nicest toxicologisthelp me.
And when I was talking to herbecause I let her know I was a
(55:51):
practitioner she mentionedsomething that I thought was
fascinating.
So it was in regards to jointsupplements and the issue with
manganese toxicity.
And I had no, I would havenever even thought of that.
I mean, in general, whenever apet eats too much of anything, I
tell people just play it safeand call a poison hotline.
(56:14):
But I was wondering if youcould share, even just briefly,
like any of the oddballtoxicities that maybe are a
little bit more we should bemore aware of than we are,
because I would never havethought of joint supplements and
that specific toxicity, butjust anything that we normally
are giving our pets.
I know if they're eating toomuch, of course there can be a
toxic level, but just any of theones that you've seen.
(56:38):
That maybe even took you bysurprise, or it would be nice
for pet parents to just keep inmind.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, and I think some of them are still common
ones that we get calls on.
So the like grapes and raisins.
A lot of people don't know thatgrapes and raisins are
problematic.
When I was in practice, I had aclient that that's the only way
she gave her pet medicationevery single day was putting it
through into a grape, and thedog did fine.
And so it's the dose makes thepoison.
(57:06):
There's individualsensitivities, but a lot of
people don't aren't aware withgosh.
Grapes are healthy, raisins arehealthy for us to eat, and so
that's one that I think a lot ofpeople don't know about.
We talked about xylitol.
That's one that a lot of peoplejust aren't aware of.
When you because it makes senseto not be aware of it.
When you think about all theother artificial sweeteners or
(57:28):
sugar alcohols that are outthere, xylitol is the only one
we care about.
It's the only one that is goingto be problematic, and so
that's something that I think isa surprise to people.
The onions and garlic, you knowyou're bringing that up again.
I think it's a surprise.
A lot of people don't don'trealize that that could be an
issue.
And then I think painmedications pain medications are
(57:52):
really a surprise to to petparents.
So we will get calls from petparents who, again with the best
of intentions, have givenibuprofen or naproxen or some
other type of human antiinflammatory for their pets pain
, and then they they they'rereally thinking about the dosing
or the amount or thesensitivity of it, and then
(58:15):
these guys are, you know,they're coming in and they've
got stomach ulcerations andthey're in kidney failure.
And this is happening withpharmacists and human physicians
and nurses and pet parents whodon't have a medical background,
because they they are.
They aren't expecting it to besuch a difference between dogs
and cats and humans, and so Ithink that's a really big
(58:38):
surprise for a lot of them.
Speaker 3 (58:42):
My last many questions, because you brought
up grapes.
Do we know the toxic component,like what part of the grape
it's in, because I know for awhile we didn't, but I've heard
recently that perhaps there'smore information that's
available.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yeah, so there was a paper published last year that
was potentially linking tartaricacid, which is an ingredient in
grapes and raisins, as beingthe component.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done to be for us to
be able to say that's what itis.
If I remember correctly, thepaper was was comparing three
(59:18):
cases and so we kind of need alittle bit more.
In the paper stated you know,we need more research before we
can really say that's what it is.
I think a lot of people havetaken that paper and really run
with it and say this is what thecause of it is.
It might be very well, might be, but there's also a chance that
(59:38):
we that it's coincidental andwe still don't know what it is.
We know that line is usuallynot going to be an issue and
grape juice is usually not goingto be an issue.
So things that have been kindof processed aren't as big of a
concern, but grapes and raisinseven.
You know, some people think ifyou raise them bread wouldn't be
(01:00:00):
a concern because it's heated.
The downside is that, yes, ifit is tartaric acid, heat can.
Heat can destabilize that, butwe don't know what that
temperature is, and so there'sstill a.
There's still a risk, even ifit's, you know, even if it's a
baked product.
So we usually because theoutcome is fatal, the outcome is
(01:00:21):
irreversible kidney failure wetypically still treat them
pretty, pretty cautiously.
So we have a campaign calledtoxin tails and it's we send out
a press release every month andsomething that we use.
It's an educational campaign tohelp parents become more aware
of different toxins that are outthere, as well as the
(01:00:42):
veterinary community, and thegood news about toxin tails is
that they all have a happyending and so it's a great story
if you want to feel good and itkind of be excited about these
animals that have had.
Some of them maybe have had anear death experience in the
sense of being extremely ill.
Some of them had just a closecall where maybe they weren't as
(01:01:06):
effective but they were in.
The story was great andsomething to get out there and
it might be.
It might be something likexylitol or we had a dog that
ingested a fit bit and the owneridentified, figured out which
dog got into it, because shetook each one of them for a trip
around the block and foundwhich one was still tracking
(01:01:27):
because her fit that was stilltracking on her.
Speaker 1 (01:01:30):
I know it's not funny at all, but I just can't help
it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
It is, yeah, it's a great story.
He did have to have it removed,but he did extremely well.
So it's just little storieslike that, and so we like to
highlight the work that theveterinary clinics are doing to
save these animals lives on adaily basis and just to educate
the pet owners and the in thepublic in general on different
(01:01:57):
toxin concerns.
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
That's fantastic.
All right well.
Thank you, dr Schmidt and DrLindsay.
I appreciate both of you todayand have a wonderful holiday
season.
We're heading into the thick ofit.
Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
Yeah, thank you so much for your time and your
expertise.
Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Thank you so much for the invitation.
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