December 13, 2025 • 64 mins
Re- Release : Dr. Lindsey Wendt co- hosts our chat with Dr. Renee Schmid, a veterinary toxicologist from Pet Poison Helpline, who sheds light on the all-too-common issue of toxicity in pets during the festive period. From chocolate to poinsettias, human medications, decorations, xylitol, marijuana and more. Dr. Schmid highlights the common everyday hazards that pets may fall prey to, underscoring the importance of keeping these items out of their reach.
She also offers practical advice for when your furry friend ingests something potentially toxic. Learn the vital importance of staying calm, gathering information, and understanding how certain substances can affect your pet. We wrap up with a look at the crucial role of veterinary clinics and public education in raising awareness about toxin concerns.
Originally published 2023
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*This podcast is for informational purposes only, even if, and regardless of whether it features the advice of veterinarians or professional dog trainers. It is not, nor is it intended to be a substitute for professional veterinary care or personalized canine behavior advice and should not be used as so. The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or the individual views of those participating in the podcast.
If you are enjoying The Baroo Podcast you can now support the show by buying me a coffee.
Shop the podcast:
https://www.thebaroo.com/shop-pod
Follow The Baroo:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/baroopup/
Blog- https://www.thebaroo.com/
Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/baroopet/
Pet parent question or story of canine companionship to share ? Email charlotte@thebaroo.com or call 424-273-5131.
*This podcast is for informational purposes only, even if, and regardless of whether it features the advice of veterinarians or professional dog trainers. It is not, nor is it intended to be a substitute for professional veterinary care or personalized canine behavior advice and should not be used as so. The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or the individual views of those participating in the podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baruch Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, Charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years.
And while I've learned a lot inmy career, I definitely don't
know it all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people.
And I learn new things from themall the time.
(00:44):
Hi you guys, thanks so much forjoining me for this episode of
the Varu Podcast.
I'm thrilled to have Dr.
Lindsay Wendt back again as myco-host.
And today we are chatting withveterinary toxicologist Dr.
Renee Schmidt.
In today's episode, we discusspotential holiday hazards that
the pet may encounter and ingestas well as those everyday toxins
(01:05):
from chocolate to medication andeven your weed.
She also offers practical advicefor when your furry friend may
ingest something potentiallytoxic and why it's important to
remain calm and call the PetPoison Hotline or contact your
veterinarian for advice.
So this is an important one.
(01:26):
Let's jump into the chat.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Um we are talking about toxicityin our animals and our pets,
specifically dogs, since this isa dog podcast.
Um do you want to introduceyourself, a tad and let us know
a little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Yeah, you bet.
I'm Renee Schmidt.
I'm a veterinary toxicologistwith Pet Poison Helpline.
I've been with Pet PoisonHelpline for just over 10 years
now, and also the manager ofveterinary medicine and
professional services there.
I'm a Kansas State graduate,very proud Kansas State
graduate.
And I've been uh, you know,toxicology was something that I
(02:07):
never really had a huge passionfor when I was in vet school or
out in practice.
I always kind of enjoyed it.
But as time went on, I foundthat it really allowed the
blending of the things that Ilike to do and solving all the
pieces of the puzzle, puttingthe pieces of the puzzle
together when animals get intothings.
So it's been a very enjoyable uhsector of veterinary medicine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
That's fantastic.
I wanted to focus today, justright now, specifically have
some questions since we'rejumping into the holidays.
Um, I wanted to talk about alittle bit about some of the
things that you find that petsmay get into over the holiday
season.
And if you see an uptick incases during this time of year
(02:50):
versus during uh other times ofyear.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
So November and December aregenerally our busiest two months
out of the year with calls.
And so we definitely see apretty large uptick in those two
months.
And it varies from just theregular things that animals
generally kind of get into.
But when we step back and wethink about it as you know, pet
(03:16):
owners and family members, we'rekind of um a little bit
discombobulated these these lastcouple months of the year.
We've got uh changes to ourschedule, we have a lot of
different things going on.
So maybe even the most in-tunepet parents, or maybe somebody
who's really diligent aboutkeeping things out of reach for
their pets, they just kind ofget off kilter a little bit.
(03:38):
And so they might leavesomething sitting out.
Or when we have house guests, alot of times there's a lot of
traveling going on.
And so when you have somebodythat's coming over to your house
and visiting, and they have thatsuitcase or that bag on the
floor, and their medications arethere, and then the animal gets
into it.
So, really common things in thatmanner that we see that we get
calls from that animals havegotten into.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
I just had my mom was just here last week for the
week, and I had to keeprepeatedly reminding her to put
her medication on top of on thekitchen counter, not like next
to her bed, and get the stuffoff the floor constantly.
I would luckily my dog couldcare less about that stuff, but
still it's it's if something youknow, you never know.
So she's just not used to it.
(04:21):
Yeah, you never know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, you never know.
And my my kind of phrase for theholiday is to anybody who's
coming over to your house, youknow, ask them right away, do
you have any medications?
Let's put it up in a counter forup in the counter or up in a
cabinet for you to get it out ofthe way just so it doesn't even
become an issue.
And even supplements, you know,a lot of a lot of people they
think that if it's over thecounter and it's a healthy
(04:44):
supplement for them, it'shealthy for their pets as well.
So they don't think about thedog that maybe gets into a
bottle of multivitamins or abottle of their vitamin D3
supplements.
And so even any any little thingthat that a person might take,
whether it be prescriptionmedication or just a natural
supplement, let's get it off thefloor.
(05:05):
Let's make sure it's it's out ofreach.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Make sure there's no risk at all, even if you know we
don't really know.
Are there common things thatdogs get into over the holidays
that we need to be prepared?
Or should we just cross theboard, just make sure everything
is out of your pet's reach, justto be cautious?
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
Yeah, you know, so human medications for sure.
You know, obviously, just makesure those are out of their
reach.
Chocolate, they love to get intochocolate all of the time, but
Christmas time is actually theholiday where we see them the
highest number of calls withanimals getting into chocolate.
And I think it's just onebecause of you know, parties and
celebrations, people are bakingmore, they're getting gifts,
(05:43):
baked goods, they're puttingchocolate products under the
tree.
You know, there's just a lotmore out there for them to get
into.
And so we see that um quite abit.
And then also around theholidays and really all year
round, but the holidays as well,the lilies, so true lilies that
we have to be concerned aboutwith cats.
There's a lot of holidaydecorations when you order a
(06:06):
nice, beautiful holidaycenterpiece that will have the
you know, nice large, brilliantwhite lilies that are in there,
those are usually going to betrue lilies and can cause kidney
failure in cats.
And we see those, you know,Valentine's Day, Mother's Day,
they're all around, but we can'tforget about that in the
Christmas time as well.
(06:26):
And then anything that couldpotentially contain xylitol.
So any of those food productsduring your baking time, if you
are somebody who uses xylitolinstead of sugar, be sure and
really keep that out of reachfor your pet.
Um, an animal that gets intopure xylitol, you know, baking
powder, it takes a very, verysmall amount for them to have
(06:51):
significant issues.
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
And what do those issues like, what do those
issues look like?
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Yeah, so if they were to get into xylitol, they
can have a drop in blood sugar.
And so with that um drop inblood sugar called hypoglycemia,
they can develop kind of uhdifficulty walking, ataxia,
they're pretty sluggish, theycan even have tremors and
seizures occurring.
And then if they get into alarge enough amount, which
(07:19):
depending on the size of thedog, may still be very little,
they can actually have liverfailure and they can die from
liver failure.
And some signs of that wouldalso be vomiting, maybe some
yellow discoloration to theirgums and to their eyes and skin.
If that happens, they're they'veprobably been sick quite a bit
before, you know, before the petowner sees that, but they're
(07:42):
just really off andsignificantly lethargic or
sluggish.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
How long does it take for that to kick in, like
immediately, you were saying, orlike hours or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
So they can start to vomit within about 30 minutes
after getting into xylitol.
Their blood sugar can drop inthat time frame, but usually
within the first two hours.
And it can last, they can havethat low blood sugar for up to
two days in some cases.
And then the liver changes, wecan see blood work changes
(08:16):
within just a couple of hours,but liver failure itself usually
is going to be around that 24hours or the day after they've
gotten into it.
The good news I would say aboutxylitol, if um, I know we're
just talking mainly about dogs,but for any of anyone who has
multi-pets or um has some catsin the household, cats that um
(08:36):
don't have an issue withxylitol.
And so it's really that bigconcern with dogs.
And I always like to call, youknow, if you have an assassin
cat in your household, so theone that likes to be up on the
countertop and knock things overfor the dog, you know, in hopes
of being the only pet in thehousehold, and just to be aware
of that, not a concern for cats,but definitely the dogs we have
(09:00):
to be really concerned with.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
And then this is more of a technical question,
but I actually I was not awarethat it was only a toxicity for
dogs.
What is the underlying, I guess,like pathology behind that?
Because usually cats are moresensitive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Yeah, isn't that cats rarely cats cats rarely
draw the long straw?
They usually get the short strawand a lot of things.
And we don't know why.
We don't know why cats areaffected differently.
And it's actually veryspecies-specific with xylitol.
So cattle have have a um arehave a toxicity to xylitol, but
(09:38):
it's it's a much larger amount,and how they would be exposed to
it would be very minimal orrare.
Um, there's been studies thatwere done way back in like the
60s and 70s where they looked atcattle and pigs and horses and
rabbits, and you know, they allhave um some degree of toxicity,
but the amount that they wouldneed to get into is very
(09:59):
different.
And we don't know why cats areresistant to it, but it's one of
those things where it's likeembrace we'll we'll embrace it
for for those cat lovers outthere.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Definitely.
And then I know one thing thatI've been seeing a lot more is
xylitol being in peanut butter.
So is can you speak to that too?
Because that's been, it seemslike more of a trend so that
people can't just necessarilygrab any peanut butter off the
shelf.
They really need to be readingthe label.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, and you know, we used to think back, you know,
years ago, we would say if itsays it's sugar-free, look for
xylitol.
And now there's xylitol in a lotof products that don't say
anything about being sugar-free.
And there's even products thatcontain xylitol in sugar.
And so now it's anything thatwould potentially require a
(10:49):
flavor in the mouth, look forxylitol, is what I kind of say.
So don't stop at sugar-free,don't make an assumption
anywhere, one way or the other.
And as far as the peanut buttergoes, so far we have not found
any what I call mainstreampeanut butter.
So if you were to go to the mainaisles of your grocery store and
(11:09):
get either the the um thegrocery store brand or you know,
some of those like GIF andSkippies, I haven't so far seen
xylitol, even with their lowsugar natural products.
Most of them are in, I call themthe boutique y brands.
So you know, kind of go in thatwhole food section, maybe
they're more of the organic.
(11:30):
They're kind of those specialtybrands.
And that's where we couldpotentially see more xylitol.
That being said, I would alwayslook, you know, check if you're
going to give xylit uh peanutbutter to your dog, make sure
check you check the bottlebecause manufacturers can change
their ingredients at any time.
But so far, most of that's goingto be those specialty brands.
(11:52):
There are some peanut butterspreads that have different
flavors, different types offlavors, not just peanut butter
flavor.
And so those are some of theones that we're starting to see
xylitol in as well.
SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
Wow.
Can I circle back to holidaysreally quickly one more time?
Poinsettias, are they toxic todogs?
I I, you know, I have a dog carebusiness, so I have dogs in and
out of here.
And so I want to decorate forthe holidays, but I'm always
really cautious, as youmentioned.
Um, and I've read Mick, I'veread Mick's things.
So what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Yeah.
So by definition, poinsetas aretoxic because they create a
negative effect when they'rewhen they're ingested.
The good news is that they causestomach upset.
Okay.
So they're not going to be,they're not going to be fatal
unless, let's say that that veryrare dog that maybe keeps eating
(12:48):
and eating and eating thepoinsetas and is vomiting and
diarrhea and becomingdehydrated, and the owner isn't
noticing it and isn't seekingtreatments, you know, something
like that, where they're havingsome some other effects from it.
But otherwise, usually it's justgoing to be some mild stomach
upset, maybe some vomiting,maybe some loose stool.
(13:08):
Usually it's going to correctitself on its own.
So I wouldn't hesitate to put apoinsetta in my house.
So I have dogs and cats, and Iwon't hesitate to put it in
there.
But if one of them just refusesto stop eating it, I may try to
put it up higher just because Idon't want the mess, but I it's
not something that we would everexpect to be fatal.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
That's good, good to know.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Another holiday decoration.
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Oh no, I was just gonna say it'sit's probably the the biggest
holiday myth that okay.
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I'm glad I yeah, okay.
Yeah, I mean, I don't wantstomach upset in any of my guys
either, you know, but still, butat least I know I'm not, you
know, putting them in danger.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And I treat them verydifferently as opposed to like
the lilies, the true lilies.
If you have a cat in your house,I would I would not have a I
would not have a true lily withcats in the house.
And I love lilies, they'rebeautiful flowers.
But if you're gonna have a catin the house, keep the lilies
away.
Poinsetas, uh how about it?
Put them in there.
But if the dog or cat continuesto chew on it, knead on it, and
(14:15):
have stomach upset, then try toput it someplace that makes it
more difficult to get.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Dr.
Lindsay, you had another holidayquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
I was gonna say um other decorations.
So, like I've heard U plants,um, and then also I was
wondering if you could addresslike Christmas trees, because I
know they can be a topplingissue, but what about the water
or like licking the resin or thesap or any other plants that
tend to be more holiday?
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, you bet.
So, ew plants, Japanese ewes areprobably the most common in the
United States, and a lot oftimes they are used to build to
make um wreaths for garland justbecause of their availability,
their durability.
And so you may have a wreath inyour house, a live wreath that
(15:01):
actually isn't made of like pineor fir, but is made of you.
And that's something that's umvery toxic.
It contains what we call cardiacglycosides.
So these are heart toxins, theycause heart um blood pressure,
heart rate, arrhythmias, rhythmissues, and can definitely be
fatal.
So that would probably be one aswell that if I had a dog or a
(15:25):
cat in the household, um, Iwould watch my wreath carefully
to make sure that if it startsto die and fall, you know, fall
down, that I take care of it atthat point.
And then um, and then theChristmas tree.
So the Christmas tree, it has,you know, come is some essential
oils and the sap that's in therecan be very irritating to the
(15:48):
stomach and the intestinaltract.
The water itself isn't usuallygoing to be much of an issue.
The little fertilizer or plantfood, tree food that gets poured
in there, that usually is not abig issue either if they get
into a little bit of that.
Where it becomes moreproblematic is depending on uh
(16:10):
how you care for the tree andwhat you read, some people will
put aspirin in their in theirtree water.
And so that is definitelyproblematic, more so for cats.
And when I think about the treestand and the tree water
underneath the tree, my dogcan't get to it, but my cats
sure can.
(16:30):
And so that's something to be tobe cautious of as far as that
goes.
But the tree itself, the pineneedles or the fur needles,
whatever they're uh ingesting,those are definitely irritating.
And if they can ingest enough ofthem, could potentially cause an
obstruction if they, you know,if they're really going to town
on it, but not a huge concern asfar as toxicity goes.
unknown (16:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Can I um I want to circle back again?
Again, I'm circling back.
I want to focus on chocolatebecause I um I've also heard
mixed things about chocolate.
Is it that it's different kindsof chocolate that can cause an
issue?
The amount of chocolate.
I've certainly had dogs who'vehad like a chocolate chip cookie
and they were and I was freakingout and they were completely
fine.
(17:15):
My sister's dog has eatenbatches of chocolate chip
cookies and had to have hisstomach pumped like maybe three
or four times during hislifetime, just to be safe.
Um, he was definitely like a youknow countersurfer.
Um, but can we kind of uhbecause that's a really common
toxin uh in in our pets, andthen we hear a lot about it.
(17:36):
Can we really kind of dive intothat and and talk about some of
the best or some of therealities and what we need to
look for?
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Absolutely.
So with chocolate, and this isgoes for dogs or cats, so
whichever, if you have a mixedhousehold, it works for either
animal, it really is going todepend on several things.
Like you mentioned, how much didthey get into?
Because in toxicology, the dosemakes the poison.
And so while something may betoxic, there's always an amount
(18:08):
that needs to be ingested orexposed to before it's actually
an issue.
And then we have to think aboutwhat kind of chocolate.
So you alluded to that as well.
If uh easy kind of rule ofthumb, I think about the less
sweet chocolates, the moreconcerning they are.
So there's a component inchocolate that's called
(18:29):
theobromine, and that's thebiggest concern.
It also contains caffeine butsmall amounts, and so we don't
usually get too worried aboutthat.
It's the theobromine portionthat's more problematic.
And so the the higher uhpercentage of like real
chocolate, full chocolate isgonna be more concerning.
So think about your baker'schocolate, your maybe your 90%
(18:52):
and higher uh dark chocolatecacao or pure chocolate, pure
cacao.
Uh, think about your semi-sweetchocolates, and then kind of go
down from there.
So we have dark chocolate indifferent percentages.
And I think in order to be nameda dark chocolate, if I remember
right, it needs to be around 50or 52% cacao or dark chocolate
(19:14):
cacao, that there's different,there's varying percentages.
And so that's gonna vary theamount of theobromine that's in
there, and then work our waydown to milk chocolate that's
nice and sweet, and then go towhite chocolate, which really
just has some cocoa butter init, not much theobromine at all.
And so if you were to take a10-pound dog that ingested one
(19:36):
Hershey kiss versus a 10-pounddog that ingested the same
amount of baker's chocolate,could have very different
effects with that.
So one Hershey kiss in a dog,probably not gonna be a big
issue, but that same amount in ain a 100% pure chocolate or
baker's chocolate coulddefinitely be a concern in our
(19:58):
in our small dogs.
And so the weight of the dog isgoing to really make that issue,
make that change ordetermination as well as to how
much can they get into.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
That makes sense.
And does it present itself thesame way, the the ta the uh the
effects of the toxicity likevomiting, diarrhea, or what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
So people can yeah, you better call Yeah.
So what what I suggest is youknow call us, call us before
panicking, call us before takingmatters into your own hands.
We unfortunately get calls fromextremely well-meaning pet
owners that actually cause moreharm with uh trying to treat the
(20:38):
pet and then calling us.
And we have to say, well, whatthey got into isn't problematic,
but what you've done is.
And so now you do need to gointo the into the veterinarian.
But I would say that, you know,anything over that Hershey Kiss,
you know, let's uh call and see.
Because what we can do is we cando calculations to determine
based on what it is that theygot into and based on their pet
(21:00):
size, how problematic is thisgoing to be?
And there's kind of differentlayers of chocolate poisoning
that we get concerned with.
So any animal that gets intochocolate can develop stomach
upset because it's it's a it's arich food.
And so they may vomit, they mayhave some loose stool, they
could even develop pancreatitis,so an inflammation of the
(21:22):
pancreas because they're tryingto digest this rich food.
And that doesn't even have to bea toxic level, it can be a small
amount.
And then as they ingest more ofthat, then we can see a high
heart rate, we can see a highblood pressure, they're antsy,
they're agitated, they're kindof you know restless, they're
kind of bouncing around a lot.
(21:43):
Maybe they have some bodytremors.
As this keeps going up, we cansee some heart rhythm problems
and changes, we can see seizuresdeveloping.
Um, it definitely can be fataldepending on how much they get
into.
Fortunately, I think pet ownersknow a lot about chocolate in
the sense of this could be bad,and they recognize signs and
(22:04):
they get therapy.
Most animals, if they gettreated for early on, do
extremely well.
We've had cases thatunfortunately don't go as well,
are usually ones where they justthey they waited it out.
And so then it was too long todo any type of kind of
decontamination or try to tryingto get rid of some of that
(22:25):
chocolate that they've ingested,and then they end up having some
really significant signs.
unknown (22:30):
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
And one thing I actually wanted to um ask you.
So I know as a veterinarian,because I used to practice
emergency medicine, I becamevery used to calling you all for
many cases, but I also hadaccess to a calculator where I
myself could determine, okay,this is the amount of chocolate
that they ate, this is theirweight.
What range of concern is thisin?
(22:54):
Are there any resources likethat available to pet parents so
that, you know, especiallyduring the holidays when I know,
you know, pet poison hot likeyou get inundated with calls.
So sometimes the wait times canbe long.
Um are there other options forpet parents as a resource?
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
You know, that's a great question.
And I'm not, I don't know of anythat are out there available.
You know, that calculator, andand there's one that's, you
know, it's it's limited toveterinary members of a
particular organization forcontinuing education and things
that's available.
I'm not aware of one that's outthere for pet parents
(23:31):
themselves.
And you could certainly go toour website, just
petpoisonhelpline.com.
You could type in chocolate, andthere's some information there
that kind of helps guide you asto what kind they got into and
things like that.
But I'm not sure it's going toactually do kind of the
calculations for you.
The one thing that I would alsomention is that there are a lot
(23:53):
of, you know, there's a lot ofdifferent technology out there
now.
There's AI, there's a lot ofchat places where you can chat
in and ask questions.
And I would really encourageeveryone to use caution with
those.
We've played around with them,we've tested them.
A lot of it is not right, someof it is accurate.
(24:15):
It's difficult for a pet ownerto know what's right and what
isn't because the answer that'sgiven is very confident.
And so it's really somethingwhere I would highly encourage
someone to contact theirveterinarian.
If they're not available,contact an animal poison control
center, like pet poisonhelpline, and really get the
(24:36):
information that you need.
And I know there's a fee, and alot of people are hesitant to
pay the fee, but let's get theright information.
If we can save you a trip intothe emergency clinic, if we can
save you from getting additionalcare, um, you know, it it's it's
well worth the money and thepeace of mind, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (24:54):
As an emergency veterinarian, I know for me,
when people would come in,despite what the patient might
have eaten, I oftentimes wouldcall a poison hotline so that I
could have guidance on how totreat and to give them more
information.
So I one thing I startedencouraging a lot of pet parents
to do is if they can, call whenthey're on their way to the
emergency hospital so that wecan then take that case number,
(25:17):
call and have more immediateattention.
So I was wondering if there'sany other kind of tips that you
have for pet parents.
Like I know another one I usedto tell people is whatever they
eat, grab the packaging, grabyour pet, get in the car and
start driving to the emergencyhospital.
And if you can, safely callwhile you're on your way.
But are there any other kind oftips or tricks that we can do to
(25:38):
make you know our jobs togethereasier and then increase the
rate of care that they'rereceiving?
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yeah, you bet.
So your tips are excellent.
And a lot of times if that petowner or pet parent can call,
you know, when they're en routeor before they've left their
home, and we may be able to savethem the trip from going in and
say you're okay to wait, ormaybe they didn't think about
grabbing that packaging, ormaybe, you know, there's we get
(26:05):
plenty of calls where the theythey leave in a panic.
And and I would do the samething.
When I, when something happenswith my pets, I am no longer a
veterinarian.
I am a panicked, uh, concernedowner.
And it logic kind of flies outthe window because there are
family members, and so we'rereally concerned about them.
And so it's very normal for petowners to panic.
(26:27):
But that's probably my first tipis to say, don't panic, you
know, take a step, take abreath, and really think about
gather all of that packaging asyou said, if there's medication,
if there's pills that are strungout on the floor, grab as many
as you can, try to get as muchinformation about the exposure
as possible.
So when you go to yourveterinarian, if you tell them
(26:50):
that your pet ingested some rat,um, some green rat bait, it's
not going to, it's not going toguide them into what needs to be
done.
And I think that's another kindof common misconception is
people often think that ratbaits have the same treatment,
same active ingredient, and theydon't.
They have very differentmechanisms and very different
(27:10):
outcomes.
And so just finding all of thatinformation that you can to
either give to your veterinarianor to give to pet poison
helpline so that we can makethat best assessment.
It's very natural for pet ownersto be a little bit discouraged
when they call in because theysay, All I know is that they got
into bait and you should help meknow what this is.
(27:32):
And unfortunately, we kind ofneed some more information.
And so if they can have somepackaging available to them, if
we can know how much it is thatthey got into, you know, if they
got into that bottle ofibuprofen, what what was it to
begin with?
How many were in there to beginwith?
How long have you been using it?
Or a prescription medication.
Sometimes we take our, we s wesend those owners back into
(27:55):
their pharmacy and say, we'llfind out what that milligram
strength was, when it wasfilled, you know, how many times
are you taking it a day to tryand get an idea as to how much
is there?
And so those are all things thatcan be very helpful at
determining what it is that whatif it's going to be an issue or
not, what it is that they gotinto and how much of a problem
it is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
I had uh, if I can share a story, I had um a client
who, when he was five, we andwe're not a hundred percent sure
what he ate, but it wasincredibly scary.
He we're pretty sure it was ratbait.
Um he ended up in the emergencyvet for nearing three weeks.
Um, essentially, he was a rarecase.
(28:37):
They kept him, they the they hadhis family had lots of
resources, so they opted to keepkeep it going.
And they had vets calling fromall over trying to, you know,
because it was a case study, butthey end up he he ended up
living a long, long life.
He he passed away at about 15.
So, but um, but uh he they thinkthat it was either rat bait or
they kept asking about vitaminD, um, like if they had eaten in
(29:00):
some like like cortisone, likeuh, you know, like uh uh
dermatology cream or somethinglike that.
So is it one of the and wecouldn't no one claimed that,
but the only thing we couldthink of that he was he was a
golden retriever, so he got intoeverything out in the world.
So we figured he must havepicked up some sort of rat
poison.
It was really, really scary.
I mean, essentially they kepthim alive while it worked
(29:22):
through his system and theyflushed it all out of his
system.
I mean, it was it was veryscary, and he was very lucky,
but we had that firsthandexperience.
So what are you saying that thattheir different rat poison does
different things?
Is so you never do that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that there's three main typesof rat and mouse baits that are
sold for kind of residentialuse.
One of them is colecalciferol,which is which is vitamin D3.
Oh my god.
I always say I think the market,I think the marketing people
decided, well, we can't call itvitamin D3 because people use it
(29:57):
as a supplement.
So let's call it by its othername colicalciferol, but they're
the same thing, and uh and takesa very small amount to be
problematic for dogs or cats.
And this can cause high calciumblood calcium levels, which then
can cause damage to multipleorgans, including the sensitive
kidneys, and can cause kidneyfailure to occur.
(30:20):
So that's probably why theythought it was either a rat bait
or a vitamin D supplement,because the the effects are the
same.
And then one of the other typesof rodenicide would be
bromethylene.
And bromethylene causes brainswelling to occur, so it causes
neurologic issues, completelydifferent than coli calciferol.
(30:42):
And the amount that the animalhas to get into is different
than coli calciferol.
And then the most what we calltraditional, the ones that
people think about mostfrequently are the
anticoagulants.
Those are the ones that causebleeding issues to occur.
There's multiple differentactive ingredients in that same
class, and those have beenaround the longest for sure, but
(31:05):
they're also being phased out toan extent because of the uh the
EPA makes decisions as to whatcan be sold here and there.
And several of them have beenphased out or banned because of
the negative effects on wildlifeand trying to kind of preserve
the wildlife population.
And those cause bleeding issuesto occur.
(31:26):
So if you think about thosethree different things, we have
calcium and kidney failure, wehave brain swelling, we have
bleeding issues, the treatmentsare all going to be very
different.
And so if we make an assumptionthat it's this one or that one,
we may be completely missing theboat in some of these cases.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
We got very lucky there.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
For sure.
So one thing that I have beenseeing that's gaining a lot of
popularity is of there's anactual product that is being
plugged in many social mediachannels that's an activated
charcoal.
And it's small little charcoalbeads, and people and it has a
high price point as well, butpeople are being urged like buy
(32:10):
this so that if your dog getsinto chocolate or this or that,
and they're just listing all ofthese things, like give this,
basically insinuating to givethat and then seek out
veterinary care, or just givethat and you know, kind of care
for your pet yourself.
I was curious your opinion onthat, because I know as a
practitioner, activated charcoalis not always recommended.
(32:31):
And then oftentimes when they doingest things, we're actually
inducing vomiting.
So the concern of themaspirating or accidentally
inhaling that charcoal that thepet parent gave with good
intentions could end up causingmore damage than if they would
have just waited and pursuedtreatment through a veterinary.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
For sure.
Um, I'm glad you brought it up.
It is something that came outjust a couple of months ago.
And reading up on the product,there's there is some concern
about the the way that it ismarketed, as you mentioned, to
give it and then figure out whatit is later.
Um, it is charcoal doesn't bindto everything, it doesn't work
(33:14):
for every toxin.
And sometimes we do want toinduce vomiting first.
And sometimes we wouldn't wantto give charcoal, even if it
doesn't work, there may be otherreasons why we wouldn't want to
give it.
And so I think it's a greatproduct in the sense that if an
owner doesn't have anotherresource, maybe they're three
(33:36):
hours away from a from a clinic.
We've talked to pet owners whothey live on an island and the
the ferry isn't coming untiltomorrow, or it's a blizzard and
they cannot get out.
And so being guided to do thatis something that there could
definitely be benefit for.
(33:57):
But I I am a bit concerned withusing that first off.
Um, personally, as a veterinarytoxicologist, I would never give
my pet turqual before knowing ifit is necessary or doing
anything else first.
So I would encourage pet parentswho have that or if they're
(34:17):
considering that, talk with yourveterinarian first, talk with
pet poison helpline first, talkwith the experts, find out what
needs to be done and if itshould be even given.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
Um along those same lines, what about um the
hydrogen?
I think it's hydrogen peroxide.
I've had uh at times when someof my clients have had eaten
chocolate or chops chip cookies,I've had uh their parents text
me instead of texting instead oftexting the vet um uh for
whatever reason and and saymaybe I should give up you know
(34:51):
hydrogen peroxide.
Um what are your thoughts onthat?
That is uh is that a good thing?
Is it a bad thing?
Is it just depends on thesituation?
Oh yeah, it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Yeah.
Well, in my opinion, I think um,I think that hydrogen peroxide
is a very polarizing topic intoxicology.
You'll have veterinarians whowill be for it and you'll have
veterinarians who will beabsolutely against it.
I respect both.
I I feel that it's a it's a it'sgood to have a healthy
disagreement with it.
I would say that we umclinically, we have been able to
(35:24):
prevent animals from developingthat poisoning or clinical
signs.
We've been able to prevent themfrom having to go into the
clinic if necessary, you know,where as they wouldn't have.
We've been able to do thingswith with dogs by recommending
hydrogen peroxide.
That being said, we we checkevery box.
You know, with this, you know,the the animal needs to be the
(35:47):
the kind of the right breed.
It needs to be the timing needsto be right, the health of the
animal needs to be right, thething that they ingested needs
to be right.
So we would never just givehydrogen peroxide for the fun of
it, but we really have to checkthe boxes.
We would never give hydrogenperoxide in a cat, period.
No, um, there's no indicate,there's no time where we would
(36:10):
ever do that because they arevery sensitive.
They don't handle it very well.
When we think about hydrogenperoxide, the way it works is
it's a stomach irritant.
It's going to irritate the wallof the stomach, and that's what
causes that vomiting to happen.
Cats, it it causes, it can causesome ulcerations and more and
(36:32):
kind of worsening issues.
It can happen in dogs.
Um it's unlikely, it's lesslikely to occur if you give us
use a specific dosing.
Uh, we never want to givehydrogen peroxide until they
vomit.
And we definitely have had callswhere people have said, I don't
know, I just poured hydrogenperoxide down my dog and he
(36:52):
didn't vomit.
Those are ones that areconcerning that are going to
develop issues.
So when I tell a pet parentabout hydrogen peroxide, I would
say never give it on your own.
So give it under the directionof a veterinarian or a
toxicology expert.
And only, you know, they'regonna check the boxes and say,
(37:12):
yes, your pet would probablybenefit from that.
There's a lot of times wherewe've gotten that call within
five or 10 minutes, they'vegiven hydrogen peroxide,
whatever it is that they gotinto, has come right back up and
we've we've saved the animal.
Um there's times when inducingvomiting at home with hydrogen
peroxide would not be ideal andthey would need to go into the
(37:32):
clinic.
Um, I I have great respect forpeople who who don't, you know,
who disagree and say it shouldnever be given, and and that's
okay.
But I know that for us, out ofthe hundreds of thousands of
millions of cases that we'vemanaged, the number of animals
who have had negative effects isextremely low in comparison with
the number of animals that havebenefited from it.
unknown (37:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (37:56):
And as a follow-up on that, so we've talked about
charcoal, we've talked abouthydrogen peroxide.
Are there any items or toolsthat pet parents can have on
hand at home to help evencalling into Pet Poison
Helpline, like that can helpthem better treat their pet if
they're not able to get to avet, like you were saying, if
(38:16):
they're far away or you know,just to have on hand?
Is there anything that you wouldrecommend that they they keep at
home?
SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
Yeah, that's a tough question.
For for cats, unfortunately,probably not.
There's really nothing thereunless they get into something
that can cause corrosive issuesor like ulcerations, burns, then
certainly just using water tohelp to irrigate and flush or
something in their eye.
For dogs, really, that hydrogenperoxide that should be
(38:47):
unexpired and you know, fresh issomething that is probably good
to have on hand.
Um, obviously something to justjust water and diluting,
depending on what they get into.
Sometimes, not very often, butthere's a few things that we
might recommend giving a littlebit of milk to to help.
I would also say if you're gonnahave xylitol in the household,
(39:10):
let's make sure that maybe youhave uh carrow syrup or even
pancake syrup or something likethat, so that if the animal does
get into it, you can give sometype of a heavy glucose source
or sugar source to help minimizethat risk of that low blood
pressure from occurring beforeyou get them into the clinic.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
And how much would honey work for that as well?
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (39:35):
I was gonna say, how much what would you give of that
to help counteract that?
Like a tablespoon or something,or it just depends on the
animal.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
You know, it depends, yeah, it depends on the
size of the dog.
Depends on the size of the dog.
A lot of times I'll say justkind of rub it on their gums,
just you know, rub a little biton their gums.
Okay.
If they're starting to showsigns where they're wobbly and
they're kind of losing theirfooting, then you know, try try
to get a little bit more uh withthem.
That while you're en route tothe clinic, I kind of say take
(40:03):
that with you so that as thingschange, because xyliton does
work so quickly.
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
I was gonna ask, would honey work as well, just
in a pinch?
Is that an option?
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Yeah, so you could use honey.
We typically say don't use honeyin dogs that are like less than
six months of age, and justthere's always that bot botulism
concern.
So you could definitely usehoney if you needed to, just a
little bit along the gums.
But kero syrup is probably theone that we say that reach for
first if you have it.
If you're if you're not in ahousehold that bakes, and most
(40:35):
people don't have karaokyruparound, so then I say grab the
pancake syrup, or you know, evenif you just tap some a little
bit of sugar and you havenothing else that you can do,
you know, just some of thegranules of the sugar, just
anything to try and help getsome glucose absorbed to help
with that.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Okay.
Can you um talk a little bitmore about the botulism?
Sorry, I know that it was kindof a passing point, but I don't
think that's it's something thatmost people know about.
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
So it might just be I yeah, I think there's, you
know, when you think aboutinfants, they recommend avoiding
making sure that honey isn'tused at a certain age just
because they can be at a higherrisk of that.
And so I think we try to justgive that same the we just kind
of put that same concern over onthe animals just to make sure
that that isn't, you know, thatthey're old enough and their
(41:23):
body's healthy enough that ifthere was any potential risk of
contamination, that they wouldbe able to take care of that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
So what I wanted to talk about next is actually kind
of leaving the holidays and whenin the clinic, I would love to
hear your opinion on urine drugtests for animals that do get
into illicit drugs, because thatunfortunately happens pretty
frequently on an emergencybasis.
(41:50):
What are the what is thevalidity?
Because most of those tests arehuman urine drug tests.
So are those tests sensitiveenough that we should be using
them or recommending them in ourpets, or like what would you
recommend for both pet parentsand practitioners, actually?
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So I typically don't put a lotof weight into a urine drug test
because there's a lot of times,there's a lot of different
metabolites.
So as that drug is beingprocessed and worked through the
body and metabolized through thebody, there's different
(42:26):
metabolites between humans andanimals.
And so those urine drug tests,they are validated on human
urine and they're not validatedon animal urine.
And so you may have some falsepositives, you may have some
false negatives.
I generally say we're gonnatreat the signs.
You know, if it looks like aduck, it walks like a duck, it
(42:49):
talks like a duck, we're gonnatreat it as a duck.
And um, we've certainly hadcalls where the urine drug test
has been positive for, let'ssay, amphetamines or
methamphetamine.
And methamphetamine would give areally high um CNS or central
nervous system stimulation.
So these guys should be bouncingoff the walls.
(43:11):
They should have a really highheart rate, a high blood
pressure, they should beextremely agitated.
And this this guy is reallysubdued and he's dribbling urine
and he's a toxic.
And so we're gonna treat him formarijuana because that's what
his signs most likely are from,versus um methamphetamine, where
(43:32):
he's not showing any of thosesigns.
So a lot of people use them ifthey're true, if they if the
results are accurate, then it'sgreat, but they're so unreliable
that I typically say, let's justtreat the, let's treat the
signs.
And that's where we all comedown to it, anyways.
When that dog gets intosomething at the park and they
(43:52):
don't know what it is, and hestarts to displaying these
particular signs, we know enoughabout what's kind of out there
and what things can cause thosesigns.
So we're gonna we're gonna treathim symptomatically and
supportively, really kind ofregardless of what that test may
say.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
And then you actually gave me the perfect
segue because the next thing Iwanted to talk about was THC
toxicity.
So I know that obviously, so Ito give you a little bit of
background, I actually usecannabis quite a bit in my
practice, obviously in a muchdifferent way.
And so what I will often tellpeople is the reason that we see
THC toxicity so much on anemergency basis is because these
(44:30):
animals are getting into strainsthat have been developed for
humans that are incredibly highTHC.
They're not being used in aproper therapeutic way.
But I also have heard a lot ofdebate.
I've heard a lot ofveterinarians say that THC is
lethal, that it actually canlead to death.
At least for me, when I'velooked at the research, there's
(44:52):
actually no, so there'ssomething called an LD50 or a
lethal dose.
There's no LD50 that's beenfound, at least for rats with
THC.
They haven't done the studies indogs or cats, but I just wanted
you, if you don't mind, kind ofspeaking to that and just you
know any insight or opinion youhave on that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah, you bet.
So there is a lethal dose indogs of three grams per
kilogram, which is if you thinkabout if you think about a
traditional marijuana joint,that's a lot.
Three grams for a like a50-pound dog that's almost 23
kilograms.
That's that's um many ounces andounces of of this product.
(45:31):
So unless you're maybe a drugdealer and the dog gets into it,
probably not going to have thatmuch around.
And so it's rarely fatal.
We do have, however, calls withsome dogs that have been, they
are just extremely negativelyaffected from it.
And dogs have more receptors,more kind of those
(45:53):
endocannabinoid receptors thanhumans do.
And so they're much moresensitive than humans.
And so um there's not really agood, what we call a toxic dose,
or what amount do they have toget into before they see signs?
It's very kind of individual,uh, very uh variable with each
with each dog.
(46:14):
So some dogs are far moresensitive, some are a little bit
less, but any it any exposure toTHC or a marijuana product is
enough, potentially likelyenough to cause some type of
signs developing.
And with that, you know, we usedto have our most common calls
were from the the plantproducts, so the traditional
joint or the the buds that werethere.
(46:37):
And now we're seeing a lot moreedibles, you know, edibles,
gummies, you know, things thatare you know, maybe they also
have chocolate in them, maybethey also have xylitol in them,
maybe they are mitts.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent products that way that
we're seeing uh animals gettinginto.
And you bring up a good point asfar as you know that the
cannabis plant itself, decadesago, there was a much lower THC
(47:03):
concentration.
And now the THC concentration, Iwant to say it was maybe like
13%, 13, 14 back in like the 60sand 70s.
And now the plants are havingabout a 30% or more
concentration of THC.
So that same amount has more THCin it.
(47:24):
And then when you look about anedible, they can put in whatever
kind of concentration they theywant to.
And so these guys are getting,you know, they're getting into
this and they're gettingsignificant signs.
And the vast majority of dogsare going to be really lethargic
and sedated.
Now, a lot of people laugh andsay, well, just we're just gonna
let them sleep it off.
(47:44):
But along with that, they couldhave a low blood pressure, they
could have a low heart rate,they could have low body
temperature.
And if those things aren'taddressed, then they can
actually cause negative effectson other organs of the body.
And so I typically recommend ifan animal gets into THC is to go
in and get an examination to seethat everything's okay and
(48:07):
decide at that point if theyneed to be on in the hospital
for supportive care or if theycan go home and just be
monitored, because it'sdifficult for a pet parent to
know what their blood pressureis or what their body
temperature is and to treatthose types of things.
Then there are a small amount ofdogs who will actually have the
(48:27):
opposite occur and they willbecome really agitated and
they'll have a high heart rateand a high blood pressure, and
they'll need to actually besedated.
And so there's some dogs that umthat work a little bit
differently.
Almost most of the dogs willdribble urine.
And so when uh when you take apet into the veterinarian and
you don't want to tell them theygot it to THC, but they're
(48:49):
dribbling urine the entire wayand they're having a hard time
walking, and the cat's out ofthe bag.
Uh so they got into THC nomatter what you say.
That's probably what happened.
And um, so it's uh um buttreatment of those is is usually
something that can happen.
And fatalities are are quiterare, but we surprisingly have
had several really bad cases.
(49:11):
And I if I remember right, Ithink they were, I can't
remember if they were gummies oredibles that they got into.
And they're just uh it was areally large amount.
So I think with the as we seemore and more of these gummies
and edibles going out there,we're going to see animals
become more and more affected.
SPEAKER_02 (49:27):
But yeah, I've had I've had clients whose dogs
picked up, you know, a joint ona walk and then like someone,
you know, dropped their theirweed um on you know out in the
world.
And when they've been walkingthere, I had a recently a client
whose puppy got into somebody'son a walk and she had no idea
what it was.
Luckily, it was a case to justsleep it off.
(49:48):
She she did take the dog intothe vet just to figure out what
it was, but it was super scary.
And then she was like sofrustrated that people, you
know, just irresponsibly toss itaround and where your animals
can get into them.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:03):
Yeah.
And as more and more stateslegalize marijuana, it's just
become it's become more sociallyacceptable to discuss it.
And our calls over the last fiveyears compared to 2018, we had
over a 700% increase in callsregarding marijuana.
And I think it's a combinationof one, it is more readily
(50:25):
accessible, but two, it's moresocially acceptable to say that
their pet got into it.
Whereas in the past, so when Iwas in practice, you you knew
this dog had gotten intomarijuana as it came into the
clinic.
You you knew it, and it was likepulling teeth to get them to
come clean with it.
And now, and now they just, youknow, they'll they'll just say
that it happened, even in stateswhere it's not legal.
(50:48):
So um it's uh it's interestingbecause of just the the
differences in staterequirements, but also in the
differences in uses, as yousaid, you know, using it in
different ways with cannabis andand um CBD is a big topic of
discussion.
And CBD in itself doesn't haveyou know those psychoactive
(51:13):
effects.
However, you have to be reallycareful to find pure CBD
products, and there's really nogood regulations at this point
with CBD products, and so themthey did some studies, was it a
year or two ago, where theytested a lot of different CBD
products, and they found most,if not all of them, also had THC
(51:34):
in them as well.
They weren't pure CBD, andthat's where our pets can get
into problems because when theysay, gosh, they got into CBD,
this shouldn't be an issue, buthe's acting like he has
marijuana poisoning, it'stypically because it's not a
pure product.
SPEAKER_01 (51:49):
And then just out of curiosity, the cases where there
is, you know, a unfortunately alethal kind of result from the
ingestion, is that normallybecause like with something like
an opioid, like morphine, it'sbreathing depression.
What does that look like for afatal THC toxicity?
Is that normally just the lowblood pressure or low heart
(52:10):
rate, just like systems down?
SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
Or yeah, so this last one that we had, and I'm
not sure if he did die, he wasprobably the closest to dying
that I've that I've managed in ain quite a while.
And he was um completely, youknow, comatose, unresponsive,
completely unresponsive.
His body temperature wasextremely low, even with efforts
(52:35):
to get his body temperature up.
He wasn't able to, they theyweren't able to get his body
temperature up to a healthystate.
And his blood pressure wasextremely low, and he was having
heart arrhythmias as well.
And he was not responding wellto the to the therapy.
He wasn't responding well tomedications to increase his
(52:55):
blood pressure or to stop thearrhythmias.
And so he was in, um, he was inthe clinic.
I was, I think he was in theclinic when I talked with him,
he was he was in there for maybehis second or third day.
Most of these guys go home after12 or 24 hours.
So usually when they requirehospitalization, it's not a
(53:16):
prolonged period of time.
But this guy was in, he was in aspecialty practice, they had the
means to do everything kind ofnecessary for him, and he just
was not responding to to thetherapy.
And that unfortunately issomething that can that can
happen.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesowners aren't able to
financially um be able to doeverything for their pet.
(53:38):
And then other times we you cando everything for your pet, and
it's still not it's still not beenough to save them.
SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
Um, so garlic.
I know this is hotly debated.
So in the holistic community,there are people that recommend
providing garlic as an optionfor natural parasite prevention
under very strictrecommendations of cut it up,
wait about 10 or 15 minutes, andthen offer it, and then there's
(54:06):
guidelines.
But I know as a conventionalveterinarian, I was taught that
garlic is toxic, period.
It was very clear to me thatthere was not this room to be
able to provide it in a certainkind of format or presentation.
And I'm wondering if that comesback to us lumping it with
onions, because that it seemslike the toxicities for those
(54:28):
two are actually more differentthan people discuss or believe.
But I was wondering if you couldtalk about that because I know
garlic has been a big topic, atleast in social media, feeding
garlic to dogs and cats.
SPEAKER_00 (54:41):
Yeah, so um, so it's our understanding that the the
mechanisms are fairly similar.
It's the sulfur um changes thatcause hemolysis to occur to the
red blood cells.
Dogs and cats are actually moresensitive to garlic than they
are to onion.
And so in my opinion, you know,it's it'll be the debate.
(55:05):
Again, it's probably one ofthose things where you know,
depending on what's um dependingon what your experience is, what
your, you know, if you've hadgood experience using it or not.
So we know that there's anestablished toxic dose for
onions and for garlic.
And for um, they are extremelymore sensitive than onions.
(55:25):
And for a cat, just to kind ofthrow it out, it's like three to
five grams per kilogram is is atoxic dose for cats.
And that's a decent amount ofgarlic that has to be given in
the fresh form.
But if you were to take that andput that into a garlic powder
where it's so much moresensitive, it's a very, very
(55:47):
small amount that they wouldneed.
And we we don't have a lot ofanimals that get in into enough
of the fresh onion, but somethat do get into enough of the
fresh of fresh garlic, but moreso those that are getting into
like our onion powders andgarlic powders because it's so
(56:08):
concentrated, um, those areoften the ones where we're
starting where we start to seethe most severely affected from
them.
Um I I'm kind of of the schoolof knowing what that can cause
in my pet.
I typically would avoid it.
But I think if you're stayingagain, the dose makes the
poison.
(56:28):
And if you're recommending anamount that's well below the
toxic dose, is it necessarilyproblematic?
Probably if you feed it on aneveryday basis.
Um, but if it's uh once here andthere, and it it it may not be,
you know, it may not bedetrimental to them to have it
(56:50):
as long as you're staying belowthat, well below that toxic
dose.
And I'm not sure how muchthey're using, you know, in the
in the holistic world as far asan amount, you know, what kind
of dosing they're using forthat.
SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
So kind of what spurred this for me was my own
dog got into, she's 13, and shedecided that she wanted to get
into a bag of fertilizer thathad been in our yard for two
years.
So I called Pet Poison Helpline.
I stepped into a pet parent'sshoes and I was freaking out.
And I had the nicesttoxicologist help me.
And when I was talking to her,because I let her know I was a
(57:24):
practitioner, she mentionedsomething that I thought was
fascinating.
So it was in regards to jointsupplements and the issue with
manganese toxicity.
And I I had no idea, I wouldhave never even thought of that.
I mean, in general, whenever apet eats too much of anything, I
tell people just play it safeand call a poison hotline.
(57:48):
But I was wondering if you couldshare, even just briefly, like
any of the oddball toxicitiesthat maybe are a little bit more
um, we should be more aware ofthan we are.
Because I would never havethought of joint supplements and
that specific toxicity, but justanything that we normally are
giving our pets.
I know if they're eating toomuch, of course, there can be a
toxic a toxic level, but justany of the ones that you've seen
(58:11):
that maybe even took you bysurprise or it would be nice for
pet parents to just keep inmind.
SPEAKER_00 (58:16):
Yeah, and I think some of them are still common
ones that we get calls on.
So the um like grapes andraisins.
A lot of people don't know thatgrapes and raisins are
problematic.
When I was in practice, I had aclient that that's the only way
she gave her pet medicationevery single day was putting it
through into a grape.
And the dog did fine.
(58:36):
And so it's um again, the dosemakes the poison.
There's individualsensitivities, but a lot of
people don't aren't aware.
But gosh, grapes are arehealthy, raisins are healthy for
us to eat.
And so that's one that I think alot of people don't know about.
We talked about xylitol, that'sone that a lot of people just
aren't aware of when you becauseit makes sense to not be aware
(58:57):
of it.
When you think about all theother artificial sweeteners or
sugar alcohols that are outthere, xylitol is the only one
we care about.
It's the only one that is goingto be problematic.
And so that's something that Ithink is a so is a surprise to
people.
Um the onions and garlic, youknow, you're bringing that up.
Again, I think it's a surprise.
A lot of people don't realizethat that could be an issue.
(59:20):
And then um I think painmedications.
Pain medications are really asurprise to to pet parents.
So we will get calls from petparents who, again, with the
best of intentions, have givenibuprofen or neproxen or some
other type of humananti-inflammatory for their
pet's pain.
(59:41):
And then they they aren't reallythinking about the dosing or the
amount or the sensitivity of it.
And then these guys are, youknow, they're coming in and
they've got stomach ulcerationsand they're in kidney failure.
And this is happening withpharmacists and human physicians
and nurses and pet parents who.
Who don't have a medicalbackground because they they
(01:00:03):
aren't they aren't expecting itto be such a difference between
dogs and cats and humans.
And so I think that's a really abig surprise for a lot of them.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:14):
My last mini question, because you brought up
grapes.
Do we know the toxic component?
Or like of what part of thegrape it's in?
Because I know for a while wedidn't, but I've heard recently
that perhaps there's moreinformation that's available.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
Yeah, so there was a paper published uh last year
that was potentially linkingtartaric acid, uh, which is an
ingredient in grapes andraisins, as being the component.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done to be for us to
be able to say that's what itis.
If I remember correctly, thepaper was um was comparing uh
(01:00:50):
three cases.
And so we kind of need a littlebit more.
And the paper stated, you know,we need more research before we
can really say that's what itis.
I think a lot of people havetaken that paper and really run
with it and say this is what thecause of it is.
It might be, it very well mightbe, but um there's also a chance
(01:01:11):
that we that it's coincidentaland we still don't know what it
is.
We know that wine is usually notgoing to be an issue and grape
juice is usually not going to bean issue.
So things that have been kind ofprocessed um aren't as big of a
concern.
But grapes and raisins, even youknow, some people think if you
(01:01:31):
raisin bread wouldn't be aconcern because it's heated.
The downside is that yes, if itis tartaric acid, heat can um
heat can destabilize that, butwe don't know what that
temperature is.
And so there's still a there'sstill a risk, even if it's you
know, even if it's a bakedproduct.
So we usually, because theoutcome is fatal, the outcome is
(01:01:54):
irreversible kidney failure.
We typically still treat thempretty uh pretty cautiously.
So we have a campaign calledToxin Tails, and it's uh we send
out a press release every month,and it's something that we use,
it's an educational campaign tohelp uh pet parents become more
aware of different toxins thatare out there, as well as the
(01:02:15):
veterinary community.
And the good news about toxintails is that they all have a
happy ending.
And so it's a great story if youwant to feel good and kind of be
excited about these animals thathave had um, some of them maybe
have had a near-death experiencein the sense of being extremely
ill.
And some of them had just aclose call where it they maybe
(01:02:38):
they weren't as affected, butthey were in the story was great
and something to get out there,and it might be it might be
something like xylitol, or wehad a dog that ingested a
Fitbit, and the owner identifieduh figured out which dog got
into it because she took eachone of them for a trip around
the block and found uh which onewas still tracking because her
(01:03:00):
Fitbit was still tracking on herapp.
I know it's not funny at all,but I just can't.
But it's it it is, yeah.
It's a great, it is a greatstory because he did well.
He did have pests and have itremoved, but but he did
extremely well.
So it's just little stories likethat.
And so we like to we like tohighlight the the work that the
(01:03:20):
veterinary clinics are doing tosave these animals' lives on a
daily basis and just to educatethe pet owners and the in the
public in general on differenttoxin concerns.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:32):
That's fantastic.
Um, all right.
Well, thank you, Dr.
Schmidt and Dr.
Lindsay.
I appreciate both of you todayand have a wonderful holiday
season.
We're heading into the thick ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:42):
Yeah, thank you so much for your time and your
expertise.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:45):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Baroo
Podcast, and a special thank youto Dr.
Lindsay Went for being myco-host again today.
If you suspect that your pet hasgotten into something that they
shouldn't have, you can call thePet Poison Help line.
It's 1-800-213-6680.
(01:04:09):
You can also find the phonenumber in the show notes and a
link to their website.
And if you enjoyed the episode,please don't forget to rate and
follow us for every listeningpodcast.
And you can also follow onInstagram at BaruPodcast.
And if you have a story of cameand companionship that you'd
like to share with me or aquestion, or even a comment, I
would love to hear from you, youcan email me, Charlotte at
(01:04:29):
theBaru.com.
All right, you guys, let's chattoo.
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baruch Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, Charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years.
And while I've learned a lot inmy career, I definitely don't
know it all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people.
And I learn new things from themall the time.
(00:44):
Hi you guys, thanks so much forjoining me for this episode of
the Varu Podcast.
I'm thrilled to have Dr.
Lindsay Wendt back again as myco-host.
And today we are chatting withveterinary toxicologist Dr.
Renee Schmidt.
In today's episode, we discusspotential holiday hazards that
the pet may encounter and ingestas well as those everyday toxins
(01:05):
from chocolate to medication andeven your weed.
She also offers practical advicefor when your furry friend may
ingest something potentiallytoxic and why it's important to
remain calm and call the PetPoison Hotline or contact your
veterinarian for advice.
So this is an important one.
(01:26):
Let's jump into the chat.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Um we are talking about toxicityin our animals and our pets,
specifically dogs, since this isa dog podcast.
Um do you want to introduceyourself, a tad and let us know
a little bit?
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Yeah, you bet.
I'm Renee Schmidt.
I'm a veterinary toxicologistwith Pet Poison Helpline.
I've been with Pet PoisonHelpline for just over 10 years
now, and also the manager ofveterinary medicine and
professional services there.
I'm a Kansas State graduate,very proud Kansas State
graduate.
And I've been uh, you know,toxicology was something that I
(02:07):
never really had a huge passionfor when I was in vet school or
out in practice.
I always kind of enjoyed it.
But as time went on, I foundthat it really allowed the
blending of the things that Ilike to do and solving all the
pieces of the puzzle, puttingthe pieces of the puzzle
together when animals get intothings.
So it's been a very enjoyable uhsector of veterinary medicine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
That's fantastic.
I wanted to focus today, justright now, specifically have
some questions since we'rejumping into the holidays.
Um, I wanted to talk about alittle bit about some of the
things that you find that petsmay get into over the holiday
season.
And if you see an uptick incases during this time of year
(02:50):
versus during uh other times ofyear.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
So November and December aregenerally our busiest two months
out of the year with calls.
And so we definitely see apretty large uptick in those two
months.
And it varies from just theregular things that animals
generally kind of get into.
But when we step back and wethink about it as you know, pet
(03:16):
owners and family members, we'rekind of um a little bit
discombobulated these these lastcouple months of the year.
We've got uh changes to ourschedule, we have a lot of
different things going on.
So maybe even the most in-tunepet parents, or maybe somebody
who's really diligent aboutkeeping things out of reach for
their pets, they just kind ofget off kilter a little bit.
(03:38):
And so they might leavesomething sitting out.
Or when we have house guests, alot of times there's a lot of
traveling going on.
And so when you have somebodythat's coming over to your house
and visiting, and they have thatsuitcase or that bag on the
floor, and their medications arethere, and then the animal gets
into it.
So, really common things in thatmanner that we see that we get
calls from that animals havegotten into.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
I just had my mom was just here last week for the
week, and I had to keeprepeatedly reminding her to put
her medication on top of on thekitchen counter, not like next
to her bed, and get the stuffoff the floor constantly.
I would luckily my dog couldcare less about that stuff, but
still it's it's if something youknow, you never know.
So she's just not used to it.
(04:21):
Yeah, you never know.
SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, you never know.
And my my kind of phrase for theholiday is to anybody who's
coming over to your house, youknow, ask them right away, do
you have any medications?
Let's put it up in a counter forup in the counter or up in a
cabinet for you to get it out ofthe way just so it doesn't even
become an issue.
And even supplements, you know,a lot of a lot of people they
think that if it's over thecounter and it's a healthy
(04:44):
supplement for them, it'shealthy for their pets as well.
So they don't think about thedog that maybe gets into a
bottle of multivitamins or abottle of their vitamin D3
supplements.
And so even any any little thingthat that a person might take,
whether it be prescriptionmedication or just a natural
supplement, let's get it off thefloor.
(05:05):
Let's make sure it's it's out ofreach.
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
Make sure there's no risk at all, even if you know we
don't really know.
Are there common things thatdogs get into over the holidays
that we need to be prepared?
Or should we just cross theboard, just make sure everything
is out of your pet's reach, justto be cautious?
SPEAKER_00 (05:21):
Yeah, you know, so human medications for sure.
You know, obviously, just makesure those are out of their
reach.
Chocolate, they love to get intochocolate all of the time, but
Christmas time is actually theholiday where we see them the
highest number of calls withanimals getting into chocolate.
And I think it's just onebecause of you know, parties and
celebrations, people are bakingmore, they're getting gifts,
(05:43):
baked goods, they're puttingchocolate products under the
tree.
You know, there's just a lotmore out there for them to get
into.
And so we see that um quite abit.
And then also around theholidays and really all year
round, but the holidays as well,the lilies, so true lilies that
we have to be concerned aboutwith cats.
There's a lot of holidaydecorations when you order a
(06:06):
nice, beautiful holidaycenterpiece that will have the
you know, nice large, brilliantwhite lilies that are in there,
those are usually going to betrue lilies and can cause kidney
failure in cats.
And we see those, you know,Valentine's Day, Mother's Day,
they're all around, but we can'tforget about that in the
Christmas time as well.
(06:26):
And then anything that couldpotentially contain xylitol.
So any of those food productsduring your baking time, if you
are somebody who uses xylitolinstead of sugar, be sure and
really keep that out of reachfor your pet.
Um, an animal that gets intopure xylitol, you know, baking
powder, it takes a very, verysmall amount for them to have
(06:51):
significant issues.
SPEAKER_02 (06:52):
And what do those issues like, what do those
issues look like?
SPEAKER_00 (06:56):
Yeah, so if they were to get into xylitol, they
can have a drop in blood sugar.
And so with that um drop inblood sugar called hypoglycemia,
they can develop kind of uhdifficulty walking, ataxia,
they're pretty sluggish, theycan even have tremors and
seizures occurring.
And then if they get into alarge enough amount, which
(07:19):
depending on the size of thedog, may still be very little,
they can actually have liverfailure and they can die from
liver failure.
And some signs of that wouldalso be vomiting, maybe some
yellow discoloration to theirgums and to their eyes and skin.
If that happens, they're they'veprobably been sick quite a bit
before, you know, before the petowner sees that, but they're
(07:42):
just really off andsignificantly lethargic or
sluggish.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
How long does it take for that to kick in, like
immediately, you were saying, orlike hours or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
So they can start to vomit within about 30 minutes
after getting into xylitol.
Their blood sugar can drop inthat time frame, but usually
within the first two hours.
And it can last, they can havethat low blood sugar for up to
two days in some cases.
And then the liver changes, wecan see blood work changes
(08:16):
within just a couple of hours,but liver failure itself usually
is going to be around that 24hours or the day after they've
gotten into it.
The good news I would say aboutxylitol, if um, I know we're
just talking mainly about dogs,but for any of anyone who has
multi-pets or um has some catsin the household, cats that um
(08:36):
don't have an issue withxylitol.
And so it's really that bigconcern with dogs.
And I always like to call, youknow, if you have an assassin
cat in your household, so theone that likes to be up on the
countertop and knock things overfor the dog, you know, in hopes
of being the only pet in thehousehold, and just to be aware
of that, not a concern for cats,but definitely the dogs we have
(09:00):
to be really concerned with.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (09:02):
And then this is more of a technical question,
but I actually I was not awarethat it was only a toxicity for
dogs.
What is the underlying, I guess,like pathology behind that?
Because usually cats are moresensitive.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
Yeah, isn't that cats rarely cats cats rarely
draw the long straw?
They usually get the short strawand a lot of things.
And we don't know why.
We don't know why cats areaffected differently.
And it's actually veryspecies-specific with xylitol.
So cattle have have a um arehave a toxicity to xylitol, but
(09:38):
it's it's a much larger amount,and how they would be exposed to
it would be very minimal orrare.
Um, there's been studies thatwere done way back in like the
60s and 70s where they looked atcattle and pigs and horses and
rabbits, and you know, they allhave um some degree of toxicity,
but the amount that they wouldneed to get into is very
(09:59):
different.
And we don't know why cats areresistant to it, but it's one of
those things where it's likeembrace we'll we'll embrace it
for for those cat lovers outthere.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Definitely.
And then I know one thing thatI've been seeing a lot more is
xylitol being in peanut butter.
So is can you speak to that too?
Because that's been, it seemslike more of a trend so that
people can't just necessarilygrab any peanut butter off the
shelf.
They really need to be readingthe label.
SPEAKER_00 (10:27):
Yeah, and you know, we used to think back, you know,
years ago, we would say if itsays it's sugar-free, look for
xylitol.
And now there's xylitol in a lotof products that don't say
anything about being sugar-free.
And there's even products thatcontain xylitol in sugar.
And so now it's anything thatwould potentially require a
(10:49):
flavor in the mouth, look forxylitol, is what I kind of say.
So don't stop at sugar-free,don't make an assumption
anywhere, one way or the other.
And as far as the peanut buttergoes, so far we have not found
any what I call mainstreampeanut butter.
So if you were to go to the mainaisles of your grocery store and
(11:09):
get either the the um thegrocery store brand or you know,
some of those like GIF andSkippies, I haven't so far seen
xylitol, even with their lowsugar natural products.
Most of them are in, I call themthe boutique y brands.
So you know, kind of go in thatwhole food section, maybe
they're more of the organic.
(11:30):
They're kind of those specialtybrands.
And that's where we couldpotentially see more xylitol.
That being said, I would alwayslook, you know, check if you're
going to give xylit uh peanutbutter to your dog, make sure
check you check the bottlebecause manufacturers can change
their ingredients at any time.
But so far, most of that's goingto be those specialty brands.
(11:52):
There are some peanut butterspreads that have different
flavors, different types offlavors, not just peanut butter
flavor.
And so those are some of theones that we're starting to see
xylitol in as well.
SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
Wow.
Can I circle back to holidaysreally quickly one more time?
Poinsettias, are they toxic todogs?
I I, you know, I have a dog carebusiness, so I have dogs in and
out of here.
And so I want to decorate forthe holidays, but I'm always
really cautious, as youmentioned.
Um, and I've read Mick, I'veread Mick's things.
So what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:26):
Yeah.
So by definition, poinsetas aretoxic because they create a
negative effect when they'rewhen they're ingested.
The good news is that they causestomach upset.
Okay.
So they're not going to be,they're not going to be fatal
unless, let's say that that veryrare dog that maybe keeps eating
(12:48):
and eating and eating thepoinsetas and is vomiting and
diarrhea and becomingdehydrated, and the owner isn't
noticing it and isn't seekingtreatments, you know, something
like that, where they're havingsome some other effects from it.
But otherwise, usually it's justgoing to be some mild stomach
upset, maybe some vomiting,maybe some loose stool.
(13:08):
Usually it's going to correctitself on its own.
So I wouldn't hesitate to put apoinsetta in my house.
So I have dogs and cats, and Iwon't hesitate to put it in
there.
But if one of them just refusesto stop eating it, I may try to
put it up higher just because Idon't want the mess, but I it's
not something that we would everexpect to be fatal.
SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
That's good, good to know.
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Another holiday decoration.
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Oh no, I was just gonna say it'sit's probably the the biggest
holiday myth that okay.
Good.
SPEAKER_02 (13:40):
I'm glad I yeah, okay.
Yeah, I mean, I don't wantstomach upset in any of my guys
either, you know, but still, butat least I know I'm not, you
know, putting them in danger.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And I treat them verydifferently as opposed to like
the lilies, the true lilies.
If you have a cat in your house,I would I would not have a I
would not have a true lily withcats in the house.
And I love lilies, they'rebeautiful flowers.
But if you're gonna have a catin the house, keep the lilies
away.
Poinsetas, uh how about it?
Put them in there.
But if the dog or cat continuesto chew on it, knead on it, and
(14:15):
have stomach upset, then try toput it someplace that makes it
more difficult to get.
SPEAKER_02 (14:19):
Dr.
Lindsay, you had another holidayquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (14:22):
I was gonna say um other decorations.
So, like I've heard U plants,um, and then also I was
wondering if you could addresslike Christmas trees, because I
know they can be a topplingissue, but what about the water
or like licking the resin or thesap or any other plants that
tend to be more holiday?
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, you bet.
So, ew plants, Japanese ewes areprobably the most common in the
United States, and a lot oftimes they are used to build to
make um wreaths for garland justbecause of their availability,
their durability.
And so you may have a wreath inyour house, a live wreath that
(15:01):
actually isn't made of like pineor fir, but is made of you.
And that's something that's umvery toxic.
It contains what we call cardiacglycosides.
So these are heart toxins, theycause heart um blood pressure,
heart rate, arrhythmias, rhythmissues, and can definitely be
fatal.
So that would probably be one aswell that if I had a dog or a
(15:25):
cat in the household, um, Iwould watch my wreath carefully
to make sure that if it startsto die and fall, you know, fall
down, that I take care of it atthat point.
And then um, and then theChristmas tree.
So the Christmas tree, it has,you know, come is some essential
oils and the sap that's in therecan be very irritating to the
(15:48):
stomach and the intestinaltract.
The water itself isn't usuallygoing to be much of an issue.
The little fertilizer or plantfood, tree food that gets poured
in there, that usually is not abig issue either if they get
into a little bit of that.
Where it becomes moreproblematic is depending on uh
(16:10):
how you care for the tree andwhat you read, some people will
put aspirin in their in theirtree water.
And so that is definitelyproblematic, more so for cats.
And when I think about the treestand and the tree water
underneath the tree, my dogcan't get to it, but my cats
sure can.
(16:30):
And so that's something to be tobe cautious of as far as that
goes.
But the tree itself, the pineneedles or the fur needles,
whatever they're uh ingesting,those are definitely irritating.
And if they can ingest enough ofthem, could potentially cause an
obstruction if they, you know,if they're really going to town
on it, but not a huge concern asfar as toxicity goes.
unknown (16:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Can I um I want to circle back again?
Again, I'm circling back.
I want to focus on chocolatebecause I um I've also heard
mixed things about chocolate.
Is it that it's different kindsof chocolate that can cause an
issue?
The amount of chocolate.
I've certainly had dogs who'vehad like a chocolate chip cookie
and they were and I was freakingout and they were completely
fine.
(17:15):
My sister's dog has eatenbatches of chocolate chip
cookies and had to have hisstomach pumped like maybe three
or four times during hislifetime, just to be safe.
Um, he was definitely like a youknow countersurfer.
Um, but can we kind of uhbecause that's a really common
toxin uh in in our pets, andthen we hear a lot about it.
(17:36):
Can we really kind of dive intothat and and talk about some of
the best or some of therealities and what we need to
look for?
SPEAKER_00 (17:45):
Absolutely.
So with chocolate, and this isgoes for dogs or cats, so
whichever, if you have a mixedhousehold, it works for either
animal, it really is going todepend on several things.
Like you mentioned, how much didthey get into?
Because in toxicology, the dosemakes the poison.
And so while something may betoxic, there's always an amount
(18:08):
that needs to be ingested orexposed to before it's actually
an issue.
And then we have to think aboutwhat kind of chocolate.
So you alluded to that as well.
If uh easy kind of rule ofthumb, I think about the less
sweet chocolates, the moreconcerning they are.
So there's a component inchocolate that's called
(18:29):
theobromine, and that's thebiggest concern.
It also contains caffeine butsmall amounts, and so we don't
usually get too worried aboutthat.
It's the theobromine portionthat's more problematic.
And so the the higher uhpercentage of like real
chocolate, full chocolate isgonna be more concerning.
So think about your baker'schocolate, your maybe your 90%
(18:52):
and higher uh dark chocolatecacao or pure chocolate, pure
cacao.
Uh, think about your semi-sweetchocolates, and then kind of go
down from there.
So we have dark chocolate indifferent percentages.
And I think in order to be nameda dark chocolate, if I remember
right, it needs to be around 50or 52% cacao or dark chocolate
(19:14):
cacao, that there's different,there's varying percentages.
And so that's gonna vary theamount of theobromine that's in
there, and then work our waydown to milk chocolate that's
nice and sweet, and then go towhite chocolate, which really
just has some cocoa butter init, not much theobromine at all.
And so if you were to take a10-pound dog that ingested one
(19:36):
Hershey kiss versus a 10-pounddog that ingested the same
amount of baker's chocolate,could have very different
effects with that.
So one Hershey kiss in a dog,probably not gonna be a big
issue, but that same amount in ain a 100% pure chocolate or
baker's chocolate coulddefinitely be a concern in our
(19:58):
in our small dogs.
And so the weight of the dog isgoing to really make that issue,
make that change ordetermination as well as to how
much can they get into.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
That makes sense.
And does it present itself thesame way, the the ta the uh the
effects of the toxicity likevomiting, diarrhea, or what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
So people can yeah, you better call Yeah.
So what what I suggest is youknow call us, call us before
panicking, call us before takingmatters into your own hands.
We unfortunately get calls fromextremely well-meaning pet
owners that actually cause moreharm with uh trying to treat the
(20:38):
pet and then calling us.
And we have to say, well, whatthey got into isn't problematic,
but what you've done is.
And so now you do need to gointo the into the veterinarian.
But I would say that, you know,anything over that Hershey Kiss,
you know, let's uh call and see.
Because what we can do is we cando calculations to determine
based on what it is that theygot into and based on their pet
(21:00):
size, how problematic is thisgoing to be?
And there's kind of differentlayers of chocolate poisoning
that we get concerned with.
So any animal that gets intochocolate can develop stomach
upset because it's it's a it's arich food.
And so they may vomit, they mayhave some loose stool, they
could even develop pancreatitis,so an inflammation of the
(21:22):
pancreas because they're tryingto digest this rich food.
And that doesn't even have to bea toxic level, it can be a small
amount.
And then as they ingest more ofthat, then we can see a high
heart rate, we can see a highblood pressure, they're antsy,
they're agitated, they're kindof you know restless, they're
kind of bouncing around a lot.
(21:43):
Maybe they have some bodytremors.
As this keeps going up, we cansee some heart rhythm problems
and changes, we can see seizuresdeveloping.
Um, it definitely can be fataldepending on how much they get
into.
Fortunately, I think pet ownersknow a lot about chocolate in
the sense of this could be bad,and they recognize signs and
(22:04):
they get therapy.
Most animals, if they gettreated for early on, do
extremely well.
We've had cases thatunfortunately don't go as well,
are usually ones where they justthey they waited it out.
And so then it was too long todo any type of kind of
decontamination or try to tryingto get rid of some of that
(22:25):
chocolate that they've ingested,and then they end up having some
really significant signs.
unknown (22:30):
Okay.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
And one thing I actually wanted to um ask you.
So I know as a veterinarian,because I used to practice
emergency medicine, I becamevery used to calling you all for
many cases, but I also hadaccess to a calculator where I
myself could determine, okay,this is the amount of chocolate
that they ate, this is theirweight.
What range of concern is thisin?
(22:54):
Are there any resources likethat available to pet parents so
that, you know, especiallyduring the holidays when I know,
you know, pet poison hot likeyou get inundated with calls.
So sometimes the wait times canbe long.
Um are there other options forpet parents as a resource?
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
You know, that's a great question.
And I'm not, I don't know of anythat are out there available.
You know, that calculator, andand there's one that's, you
know, it's it's limited toveterinary members of a
particular organization forcontinuing education and things
that's available.
I'm not aware of one that's outthere for pet parents
(23:31):
themselves.
And you could certainly go toour website, just
petpoisonhelpline.com.
You could type in chocolate, andthere's some information there
that kind of helps guide you asto what kind they got into and
things like that.
But I'm not sure it's going toactually do kind of the
calculations for you.
The one thing that I would alsomention is that there are a lot
(23:53):
of, you know, there's a lot ofdifferent technology out there
now.
There's AI, there's a lot ofchat places where you can chat
in and ask questions.
And I would really encourageeveryone to use caution with
those.
We've played around with them,we've tested them.
A lot of it is not right, someof it is accurate.
(24:15):
It's difficult for a pet ownerto know what's right and what
isn't because the answer that'sgiven is very confident.
And so it's really somethingwhere I would highly encourage
someone to contact theirveterinarian.
If they're not available,contact an animal poison control
center, like pet poisonhelpline, and really get the
(24:36):
information that you need.
And I know there's a fee, and alot of people are hesitant to
pay the fee, but let's get theright information.
If we can save you a trip intothe emergency clinic, if we can
save you from getting additionalcare, um, you know, it it's it's
well worth the money and thepeace of mind, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01 (24:54):
As an emergency veterinarian, I know for me,
when people would come in,despite what the patient might
have eaten, I oftentimes wouldcall a poison hotline so that I
could have guidance on how totreat and to give them more
information.
So I one thing I startedencouraging a lot of pet parents
to do is if they can, call whenthey're on their way to the
emergency hospital so that wecan then take that case number,
(25:17):
call and have more immediateattention.
So I was wondering if there'sany other kind of tips that you
have for pet parents.
Like I know another one I usedto tell people is whatever they
eat, grab the packaging, grabyour pet, get in the car and
start driving to the emergencyhospital.
And if you can, safely callwhile you're on your way.
But are there any other kind oftips or tricks that we can do to
(25:38):
make you know our jobs togethereasier and then increase the
rate of care that they'rereceiving?
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yeah, you bet.
So your tips are excellent.
And a lot of times if that petowner or pet parent can call,
you know, when they're en routeor before they've left their
home, and we may be able to savethem the trip from going in and
say you're okay to wait, ormaybe they didn't think about
grabbing that packaging, ormaybe, you know, there's we get
(26:05):
plenty of calls where the theythey leave in a panic.
And and I would do the samething.
When I, when something happenswith my pets, I am no longer a
veterinarian.
I am a panicked, uh, concernedowner.
And it logic kind of flies outthe window because there are
family members, and so we'rereally concerned about them.
And so it's very normal for petowners to panic.
(26:27):
But that's probably my first tipis to say, don't panic, you
know, take a step, take abreath, and really think about
gather all of that packaging asyou said, if there's medication,
if there's pills that are strungout on the floor, grab as many
as you can, try to get as muchinformation about the exposure
as possible.
So when you go to yourveterinarian, if you tell them
(26:50):
that your pet ingested some rat,um, some green rat bait, it's
not going to, it's not going toguide them into what needs to be
done.
And I think that's another kindof common misconception is
people often think that ratbaits have the same treatment,
same active ingredient, and theydon't.
They have very differentmechanisms and very different
(27:10):
outcomes.
And so just finding all of thatinformation that you can to
either give to your veterinarianor to give to pet poison
helpline so that we can makethat best assessment.
It's very natural for pet ownersto be a little bit discouraged
when they call in because theysay, All I know is that they got
into bait and you should help meknow what this is.
(27:32):
And unfortunately, we kind ofneed some more information.
And so if they can have somepackaging available to them, if
we can know how much it is thatthey got into, you know, if they
got into that bottle ofibuprofen, what what was it to
begin with?
How many were in there to beginwith?
How long have you been using it?
Or a prescription medication.
Sometimes we take our, we s wesend those owners back into
(27:55):
their pharmacy and say, we'llfind out what that milligram
strength was, when it wasfilled, you know, how many times
are you taking it a day to tryand get an idea as to how much
is there?
And so those are all things thatcan be very helpful at
determining what it is that whatif it's going to be an issue or
not, what it is that they gotinto and how much of a problem
it is.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
I had uh, if I can share a story, I had um a client
who, when he was five, we andwe're not a hundred percent sure
what he ate, but it wasincredibly scary.
He we're pretty sure it was ratbait.
Um he ended up in the emergencyvet for nearing three weeks.
Um, essentially, he was a rarecase.
(28:37):
They kept him, they the they hadhis family had lots of
resources, so they opted to keepkeep it going.
And they had vets calling fromall over trying to, you know,
because it was a case study, butthey end up he he ended up
living a long, long life.
He he passed away at about 15.
So, but um, but uh he they thinkthat it was either rat bait or
they kept asking about vitaminD, um, like if they had eaten in
(29:00):
some like like cortisone, likeuh, you know, like uh uh
dermatology cream or somethinglike that.
So is it one of the and wecouldn't no one claimed that,
but the only thing we couldthink of that he was he was a
golden retriever, so he got intoeverything out in the world.
So we figured he must havepicked up some sort of rat
poison.
It was really, really scary.
I mean, essentially they kepthim alive while it worked
(29:22):
through his system and theyflushed it all out of his
system.
I mean, it was it was veryscary, and he was very lucky,
but we had that firsthandexperience.
So what are you saying that thattheir different rat poison does
different things?
Is so you never do that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that there's three main typesof rat and mouse baits that are
sold for kind of residentialuse.
One of them is colecalciferol,which is which is vitamin D3.
Oh my god.
I always say I think the market,I think the marketing people
decided, well, we can't call itvitamin D3 because people use it
(29:57):
as a supplement.
So let's call it by its othername colicalciferol, but they're
the same thing, and uh and takesa very small amount to be
problematic for dogs or cats.
And this can cause high calciumblood calcium levels, which then
can cause damage to multipleorgans, including the sensitive
kidneys, and can cause kidneyfailure to occur.
(30:20):
So that's probably why theythought it was either a rat bait
or a vitamin D supplement,because the the effects are the
same.
And then one of the other typesof rodenicide would be
bromethylene.
And bromethylene causes brainswelling to occur, so it causes
neurologic issues, completelydifferent than coli calciferol.
(30:42):
And the amount that the animalhas to get into is different
than coli calciferol.
And then the most what we calltraditional, the ones that
people think about mostfrequently are the
anticoagulants.
Those are the ones that causebleeding issues to occur.
There's multiple differentactive ingredients in that same
class, and those have beenaround the longest for sure, but
(31:05):
they're also being phased out toan extent because of the uh the
EPA makes decisions as to whatcan be sold here and there.
And several of them have beenphased out or banned because of
the negative effects on wildlifeand trying to kind of preserve
the wildlife population.
And those cause bleeding issuesto occur.
(31:26):
So if you think about thosethree different things, we have
calcium and kidney failure, wehave brain swelling, we have
bleeding issues, the treatmentsare all going to be very
different.
And so if we make an assumptionthat it's this one or that one,
we may be completely missing theboat in some of these cases.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
We got very lucky there.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
For sure.
So one thing that I have beenseeing that's gaining a lot of
popularity is of there's anactual product that is being
plugged in many social mediachannels that's an activated
charcoal.
And it's small little charcoalbeads, and people and it has a
high price point as well, butpeople are being urged like buy
(32:10):
this so that if your dog getsinto chocolate or this or that,
and they're just listing all ofthese things, like give this,
basically insinuating to givethat and then seek out
veterinary care, or just givethat and you know, kind of care
for your pet yourself.
I was curious your opinion onthat, because I know as a
practitioner, activated charcoalis not always recommended.
(32:31):
And then oftentimes when they doingest things, we're actually
inducing vomiting.
So the concern of themaspirating or accidentally
inhaling that charcoal that thepet parent gave with good
intentions could end up causingmore damage than if they would
have just waited and pursuedtreatment through a veterinary.
SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
For sure.
Um, I'm glad you brought it up.
It is something that came outjust a couple of months ago.
And reading up on the product,there's there is some concern
about the the way that it ismarketed, as you mentioned, to
give it and then figure out whatit is later.
Um, it is charcoal doesn't bindto everything, it doesn't work
(33:14):
for every toxin.
And sometimes we do want toinduce vomiting first.
And sometimes we wouldn't wantto give charcoal, even if it
doesn't work, there may be otherreasons why we wouldn't want to
give it.
And so I think it's a greatproduct in the sense that if an
owner doesn't have anotherresource, maybe they're three
(33:36):
hours away from a from a clinic.
We've talked to pet owners whothey live on an island and the
the ferry isn't coming untiltomorrow, or it's a blizzard and
they cannot get out.
And so being guided to do thatis something that there could
definitely be benefit for.
(33:57):
But I I am a bit concerned withusing that first off.
Um, personally, as a veterinarytoxicologist, I would never give
my pet turqual before knowing ifit is necessary or doing
anything else first.
So I would encourage pet parentswho have that or if they're
(34:17):
considering that, talk with yourveterinarian first, talk with
pet poison helpline first, talkwith the experts, find out what
needs to be done and if itshould be even given.
SPEAKER_02 (34:29):
Um along those same lines, what about um the
hydrogen?
I think it's hydrogen peroxide.
I've had uh at times when someof my clients have had eaten
chocolate or chops chip cookies,I've had uh their parents text
me instead of texting instead oftexting the vet um uh for
whatever reason and and saymaybe I should give up you know
(34:51):
hydrogen peroxide.
Um what are your thoughts onthat?
That is uh is that a good thing?
Is it a bad thing?
Is it just depends on thesituation?
Oh yeah, it's both.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Yeah.
Well, in my opinion, I think um,I think that hydrogen peroxide
is a very polarizing topic intoxicology.
You'll have veterinarians whowill be for it and you'll have
veterinarians who will beabsolutely against it.
I respect both.
I I feel that it's a it's a it'sgood to have a healthy
disagreement with it.
I would say that we umclinically, we have been able to
(35:24):
prevent animals from developingthat poisoning or clinical
signs.
We've been able to prevent themfrom having to go into the
clinic if necessary, you know,where as they wouldn't have.
We've been able to do thingswith with dogs by recommending
hydrogen peroxide.
That being said, we we checkevery box.
You know, with this, you know,the the animal needs to be the
(35:47):
the kind of the right breed.
It needs to be the timing needsto be right, the health of the
animal needs to be right, thething that they ingested needs
to be right.
So we would never just givehydrogen peroxide for the fun of
it, but we really have to checkthe boxes.
We would never give hydrogenperoxide in a cat, period.
No, um, there's no indicate,there's no time where we would
(36:10):
ever do that because they arevery sensitive.
They don't handle it very well.
When we think about hydrogenperoxide, the way it works is
it's a stomach irritant.
It's going to irritate the wallof the stomach, and that's what
causes that vomiting to happen.
Cats, it it causes, it can causesome ulcerations and more and
(36:32):
kind of worsening issues.
It can happen in dogs.
Um it's unlikely, it's lesslikely to occur if you give us
use a specific dosing.
Uh, we never want to givehydrogen peroxide until they
vomit.
And we definitely have had callswhere people have said, I don't
know, I just poured hydrogenperoxide down my dog and he
(36:52):
didn't vomit.
Those are ones that areconcerning that are going to
develop issues.
So when I tell a pet parentabout hydrogen peroxide, I would
say never give it on your own.
So give it under the directionof a veterinarian or a
toxicology expert.
And only, you know, they'regonna check the boxes and say,
(37:12):
yes, your pet would probablybenefit from that.
There's a lot of times wherewe've gotten that call within
five or 10 minutes, they'vegiven hydrogen peroxide,
whatever it is that they gotinto, has come right back up and
we've we've saved the animal.
Um there's times when inducingvomiting at home with hydrogen
peroxide would not be ideal andthey would need to go into the
(37:32):
clinic.
Um, I I have great respect forpeople who who don't, you know,
who disagree and say it shouldnever be given, and and that's
okay.
But I know that for us, out ofthe hundreds of thousands of
millions of cases that we'vemanaged, the number of animals
who have had negative effects isextremely low in comparison with
the number of animals that havebenefited from it.
unknown (37:54):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (37:56):
And as a follow-up on that, so we've talked about
charcoal, we've talked abouthydrogen peroxide.
Are there any items or toolsthat pet parents can have on
hand at home to help evencalling into Pet Poison
Helpline, like that can helpthem better treat their pet if
they're not able to get to avet, like you were saying, if
(38:16):
they're far away or you know,just to have on hand?
Is there anything that you wouldrecommend that they they keep at
home?
SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
Yeah, that's a tough question.
For for cats, unfortunately,probably not.
There's really nothing thereunless they get into something
that can cause corrosive issuesor like ulcerations, burns, then
certainly just using water tohelp to irrigate and flush or
something in their eye.
For dogs, really, that hydrogenperoxide that should be
(38:47):
unexpired and you know, fresh issomething that is probably good
to have on hand.
Um, obviously something to justjust water and diluting,
depending on what they get into.
Sometimes, not very often, butthere's a few things that we
might recommend giving a littlebit of milk to to help.
I would also say if you're gonnahave xylitol in the household,
(39:10):
let's make sure that maybe youhave uh carrow syrup or even
pancake syrup or something likethat, so that if the animal does
get into it, you can give sometype of a heavy glucose source
or sugar source to help minimizethat risk of that low blood
pressure from occurring beforeyou get them into the clinic.
SPEAKER_02 (39:31):
And how much would honey work for that as well?
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (39:35):
I was gonna say, how much what would you give of that
to help counteract that?
Like a tablespoon or something,or it just depends on the
animal.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
You know, it depends, yeah, it depends on the
size of the dog.
Depends on the size of the dog.
A lot of times I'll say justkind of rub it on their gums,
just you know, rub a little biton their gums.
Okay.
If they're starting to showsigns where they're wobbly and
they're kind of losing theirfooting, then you know, try try
to get a little bit more uh withthem.
That while you're en route tothe clinic, I kind of say take
(40:03):
that with you so that as thingschange, because xyliton does
work so quickly.
SPEAKER_01 (40:08):
I was gonna ask, would honey work as well, just
in a pinch?
Is that an option?
SPEAKER_00 (40:12):
Yeah, so you could use honey.
We typically say don't use honeyin dogs that are like less than
six months of age, and justthere's always that bot botulism
concern.
So you could definitely usehoney if you needed to, just a
little bit along the gums.
But kero syrup is probably theone that we say that reach for
first if you have it.
If you're if you're not in ahousehold that bakes, and most
(40:35):
people don't have karaokyruparound, so then I say grab the
pancake syrup, or you know, evenif you just tap some a little
bit of sugar and you havenothing else that you can do,
you know, just some of thegranules of the sugar, just
anything to try and help getsome glucose absorbed to help
with that.
SPEAKER_01 (40:53):
Okay.
Can you um talk a little bitmore about the botulism?
Sorry, I know that it was kindof a passing point, but I don't
think that's it's something thatmost people know about.
SPEAKER_00 (41:02):
So it might just be I yeah, I think there's, you
know, when you think aboutinfants, they recommend avoiding
making sure that honey isn'tused at a certain age just
because they can be at a higherrisk of that.
And so I think we try to justgive that same the we just kind
of put that same concern over onthe animals just to make sure
that that isn't, you know, thatthey're old enough and their
(41:23):
body's healthy enough that ifthere was any potential risk of
contamination, that they wouldbe able to take care of that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
So what I wanted to talk about next is actually kind
of leaving the holidays and whenin the clinic, I would love to
hear your opinion on urine drugtests for animals that do get
into illicit drugs, because thatunfortunately happens pretty
frequently on an emergencybasis.
(41:50):
What are the what is thevalidity?
Because most of those tests arehuman urine drug tests.
So are those tests sensitiveenough that we should be using
them or recommending them in ourpets, or like what would you
recommend for both pet parentsand practitioners, actually?
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So I typically don't put a lotof weight into a urine drug test
because there's a lot of times,there's a lot of different
metabolites.
So as that drug is beingprocessed and worked through the
body and metabolized through thebody, there's different
(42:26):
metabolites between humans andanimals.
And so those urine drug tests,they are validated on human
urine and they're not validatedon animal urine.
And so you may have some falsepositives, you may have some
false negatives.
I generally say we're gonnatreat the signs.
You know, if it looks like aduck, it walks like a duck, it
(42:49):
talks like a duck, we're gonnatreat it as a duck.
And um, we've certainly hadcalls where the urine drug test
has been positive for, let'ssay, amphetamines or
methamphetamine.
And methamphetamine would give areally high um CNS or central
nervous system stimulation.
So these guys should be bouncingoff the walls.
(43:11):
They should have a really highheart rate, a high blood
pressure, they should beextremely agitated.
And this this guy is reallysubdued and he's dribbling urine
and he's a toxic.
And so we're gonna treat him formarijuana because that's what
his signs most likely are from,versus um methamphetamine, where
(43:32):
he's not showing any of thosesigns.
So a lot of people use them ifthey're true, if they if the
results are accurate, then it'sgreat, but they're so unreliable
that I typically say, let's justtreat the, let's treat the
signs.
And that's where we all comedown to it, anyways.
When that dog gets intosomething at the park and they
(43:52):
don't know what it is, and hestarts to displaying these
particular signs, we know enoughabout what's kind of out there
and what things can cause thosesigns.
So we're gonna we're gonna treathim symptomatically and
supportively, really kind ofregardless of what that test may
say.
SPEAKER_01 (44:08):
And then you actually gave me the perfect
segue because the next thing Iwanted to talk about was THC
toxicity.
So I know that obviously, so Ito give you a little bit of
background, I actually usecannabis quite a bit in my
practice, obviously in a muchdifferent way.
And so what I will often tellpeople is the reason that we see
THC toxicity so much on anemergency basis is because these
(44:30):
animals are getting into strainsthat have been developed for
humans that are incredibly highTHC.
They're not being used in aproper therapeutic way.
But I also have heard a lot ofdebate.
I've heard a lot ofveterinarians say that THC is
lethal, that it actually canlead to death.
At least for me, when I'velooked at the research, there's
(44:52):
actually no, so there'ssomething called an LD50 or a
lethal dose.
There's no LD50 that's beenfound, at least for rats with
THC.
They haven't done the studies indogs or cats, but I just wanted
you, if you don't mind, kind ofspeaking to that and just you
know any insight or opinion youhave on that.
SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah, you bet.
So there is a lethal dose indogs of three grams per
kilogram, which is if you thinkabout if you think about a
traditional marijuana joint,that's a lot.
Three grams for a like a50-pound dog that's almost 23
kilograms.
That's that's um many ounces andounces of of this product.
(45:31):
So unless you're maybe a drugdealer and the dog gets into it,
probably not going to have thatmuch around.
And so it's rarely fatal.
We do have, however, calls withsome dogs that have been, they
are just extremely negativelyaffected from it.
And dogs have more receptors,more kind of those
(45:53):
endocannabinoid receptors thanhumans do.
And so they're much moresensitive than humans.
And so um there's not really agood, what we call a toxic dose,
or what amount do they have toget into before they see signs?
It's very kind of individual,uh, very uh variable with each
with each dog.
(46:14):
So some dogs are far moresensitive, some are a little bit
less, but any it any exposure toTHC or a marijuana product is
enough, potentially likelyenough to cause some type of
signs developing.
And with that, you know, we usedto have our most common calls
were from the the plantproducts, so the traditional
joint or the the buds that werethere.
(46:37):
And now we're seeing a lot moreedibles, you know, edibles,
gummies, you know, things thatare you know, maybe they also
have chocolate in them, maybethey also have xylitol in them,
maybe they are mitts.
And so there's a lot ofdifferent products that way that
we're seeing uh animals gettinginto.
And you bring up a good point asfar as you know that the
cannabis plant itself, decadesago, there was a much lower THC
(47:03):
concentration.
And now the THC concentration, Iwant to say it was maybe like
13%, 13, 14 back in like the 60sand 70s.
And now the plants are havingabout a 30% or more
concentration of THC.
So that same amount has more THCin it.
(47:24):
And then when you look about anedible, they can put in whatever
kind of concentration they theywant to.
And so these guys are getting,you know, they're getting into
this and they're gettingsignificant signs.
And the vast majority of dogsare going to be really lethargic
and sedated.
Now, a lot of people laugh andsay, well, just we're just gonna
let them sleep it off.
(47:44):
But along with that, they couldhave a low blood pressure, they
could have a low heart rate,they could have low body
temperature.
And if those things aren'taddressed, then they can
actually cause negative effectson other organs of the body.
And so I typically recommend ifan animal gets into THC is to go
in and get an examination to seethat everything's okay and
(48:07):
decide at that point if theyneed to be on in the hospital
for supportive care or if theycan go home and just be
monitored, because it'sdifficult for a pet parent to
know what their blood pressureis or what their body
temperature is and to treatthose types of things.
Then there are a small amount ofdogs who will actually have the
(48:27):
opposite occur and they willbecome really agitated and
they'll have a high heart rateand a high blood pressure, and
they'll need to actually besedated.
And so there's some dogs that umthat work a little bit
differently.
Almost most of the dogs willdribble urine.
And so when uh when you take apet into the veterinarian and
you don't want to tell them theygot it to THC, but they're
(48:49):
dribbling urine the entire wayand they're having a hard time
walking, and the cat's out ofthe bag.
Uh so they got into THC nomatter what you say.
That's probably what happened.
And um, so it's uh um buttreatment of those is is usually
something that can happen.
And fatalities are are quiterare, but we surprisingly have
had several really bad cases.
(49:11):
And I if I remember right, Ithink they were, I can't
remember if they were gummies oredibles that they got into.
And they're just uh it was areally large amount.
So I think with the as we seemore and more of these gummies
and edibles going out there,we're going to see animals
become more and more affected.
SPEAKER_02 (49:27):
But yeah, I've had I've had clients whose dogs
picked up, you know, a joint ona walk and then like someone,
you know, dropped their theirweed um on you know out in the
world.
And when they've been walkingthere, I had a recently a client
whose puppy got into somebody'son a walk and she had no idea
what it was.
Luckily, it was a case to justsleep it off.
(49:48):
She she did take the dog intothe vet just to figure out what
it was, but it was super scary.
And then she was like sofrustrated that people, you
know, just irresponsibly toss itaround and where your animals
can get into them.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (50:03):
Yeah.
And as more and more stateslegalize marijuana, it's just
become it's become more sociallyacceptable to discuss it.
And our calls over the last fiveyears compared to 2018, we had
over a 700% increase in callsregarding marijuana.
And I think it's a combinationof one, it is more readily
(50:25):
accessible, but two, it's moresocially acceptable to say that
their pet got into it.
Whereas in the past, so when Iwas in practice, you you knew
this dog had gotten intomarijuana as it came into the
clinic.
You you knew it, and it was likepulling teeth to get them to
come clean with it.
And now, and now they just, youknow, they'll they'll just say
that it happened, even in stateswhere it's not legal.
(50:48):
So um it's uh it's interestingbecause of just the the
differences in staterequirements, but also in the
differences in uses, as yousaid, you know, using it in
different ways with cannabis andand um CBD is a big topic of
discussion.
And CBD in itself doesn't haveyou know those psychoactive
(51:13):
effects.
However, you have to be reallycareful to find pure CBD
products, and there's really nogood regulations at this point
with CBD products, and so themthey did some studies, was it a
year or two ago, where theytested a lot of different CBD
products, and they found most,if not all of them, also had THC
(51:34):
in them as well.
They weren't pure CBD, andthat's where our pets can get
into problems because when theysay, gosh, they got into CBD,
this shouldn't be an issue, buthe's acting like he has
marijuana poisoning, it'stypically because it's not a
pure product.
SPEAKER_01 (51:49):
And then just out of curiosity, the cases where there
is, you know, a unfortunately alethal kind of result from the
ingestion, is that normallybecause like with something like
an opioid, like morphine, it'sbreathing depression.
What does that look like for afatal THC toxicity?
Is that normally just the lowblood pressure or low heart
(52:10):
rate, just like systems down?
SPEAKER_00 (52:13):
Or yeah, so this last one that we had, and I'm
not sure if he did die, he wasprobably the closest to dying
that I've that I've managed in ain quite a while.
And he was um completely, youknow, comatose, unresponsive,
completely unresponsive.
His body temperature wasextremely low, even with efforts
(52:35):
to get his body temperature up.
He wasn't able to, they theyweren't able to get his body
temperature up to a healthystate.
And his blood pressure wasextremely low, and he was having
heart arrhythmias as well.
And he was not responding wellto the to the therapy.
He wasn't responding well tomedications to increase his
(52:55):
blood pressure or to stop thearrhythmias.
And so he was in, um, he was inthe clinic.
I was, I think he was in theclinic when I talked with him,
he was he was in there for maybehis second or third day.
Most of these guys go home after12 or 24 hours.
So usually when they requirehospitalization, it's not a
(53:16):
prolonged period of time.
But this guy was in, he was in aspecialty practice, they had the
means to do everything kind ofnecessary for him, and he just
was not responding to to thetherapy.
And that unfortunately issomething that can that can
happen.
Sometimes, you know, sometimesowners aren't able to
financially um be able to doeverything for their pet.
(53:38):
And then other times we you cando everything for your pet, and
it's still not it's still not beenough to save them.
SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
Um, so garlic.
I know this is hotly debated.
So in the holistic community,there are people that recommend
providing garlic as an optionfor natural parasite prevention
under very strictrecommendations of cut it up,
wait about 10 or 15 minutes, andthen offer it, and then there's
(54:06):
guidelines.
But I know as a conventionalveterinarian, I was taught that
garlic is toxic, period.
It was very clear to me thatthere was not this room to be
able to provide it in a certainkind of format or presentation.
And I'm wondering if that comesback to us lumping it with
onions, because that it seemslike the toxicities for those
(54:28):
two are actually more differentthan people discuss or believe.
But I was wondering if you couldtalk about that because I know
garlic has been a big topic, atleast in social media, feeding
garlic to dogs and cats.
SPEAKER_00 (54:41):
Yeah, so um, so it's our understanding that the the
mechanisms are fairly similar.
It's the sulfur um changes thatcause hemolysis to occur to the
red blood cells.
Dogs and cats are actually moresensitive to garlic than they
are to onion.
And so in my opinion, you know,it's it'll be the debate.
(55:05):
Again, it's probably one ofthose things where you know,
depending on what's um dependingon what your experience is, what
your, you know, if you've hadgood experience using it or not.
So we know that there's anestablished toxic dose for
onions and for garlic.
And for um, they are extremelymore sensitive than onions.
(55:25):
And for a cat, just to kind ofthrow it out, it's like three to
five grams per kilogram is is atoxic dose for cats.
And that's a decent amount ofgarlic that has to be given in
the fresh form.
But if you were to take that andput that into a garlic powder
where it's so much moresensitive, it's a very, very
(55:47):
small amount that they wouldneed.
And we we don't have a lot ofanimals that get in into enough
of the fresh onion, but somethat do get into enough of the
fresh of fresh garlic, but moreso those that are getting into
like our onion powders andgarlic powders because it's so
(56:08):
concentrated, um, those areoften the ones where we're
starting where we start to seethe most severely affected from
them.
Um I I'm kind of of the schoolof knowing what that can cause
in my pet.
I typically would avoid it.
But I think if you're stayingagain, the dose makes the
poison.
(56:28):
And if you're recommending anamount that's well below the
toxic dose, is it necessarilyproblematic?
Probably if you feed it on aneveryday basis.
Um, but if it's uh once here andthere, and it it it may not be,
you know, it may not bedetrimental to them to have it
(56:50):
as long as you're staying belowthat, well below that toxic
dose.
And I'm not sure how muchthey're using, you know, in the
in the holistic world as far asan amount, you know, what kind
of dosing they're using forthat.
SPEAKER_01 (57:01):
So kind of what spurred this for me was my own
dog got into, she's 13, and shedecided that she wanted to get
into a bag of fertilizer thathad been in our yard for two
years.
So I called Pet Poison Helpline.
I stepped into a pet parent'sshoes and I was freaking out.
And I had the nicesttoxicologist help me.
And when I was talking to her,because I let her know I was a
(57:24):
practitioner, she mentionedsomething that I thought was
fascinating.
So it was in regards to jointsupplements and the issue with
manganese toxicity.
And I I had no idea, I wouldhave never even thought of that.
I mean, in general, whenever apet eats too much of anything, I
tell people just play it safeand call a poison hotline.
(57:48):
But I was wondering if you couldshare, even just briefly, like
any of the oddball toxicitiesthat maybe are a little bit more
um, we should be more aware ofthan we are.
Because I would never havethought of joint supplements and
that specific toxicity, but justanything that we normally are
giving our pets.
I know if they're eating toomuch, of course, there can be a
toxic a toxic level, but justany of the ones that you've seen
(58:11):
that maybe even took you bysurprise or it would be nice for
pet parents to just keep inmind.
SPEAKER_00 (58:16):
Yeah, and I think some of them are still common
ones that we get calls on.
So the um like grapes andraisins.
A lot of people don't know thatgrapes and raisins are
problematic.
When I was in practice, I had aclient that that's the only way
she gave her pet medicationevery single day was putting it
through into a grape.
And the dog did fine.
(58:36):
And so it's um again, the dosemakes the poison.
There's individualsensitivities, but a lot of
people don't aren't aware.
But gosh, grapes are arehealthy, raisins are healthy for
us to eat.
And so that's one that I think alot of people don't know about.
We talked about xylitol, that'sone that a lot of people just
aren't aware of when you becauseit makes sense to not be aware
(58:57):
of it.
When you think about all theother artificial sweeteners or
sugar alcohols that are outthere, xylitol is the only one
we care about.
It's the only one that is goingto be problematic.
And so that's something that Ithink is a so is a surprise to
people.
Um the onions and garlic, youknow, you're bringing that up.
Again, I think it's a surprise.
A lot of people don't realizethat that could be an issue.
(59:20):
And then um I think painmedications.
Pain medications are really asurprise to to pet parents.
So we will get calls from petparents who, again, with the
best of intentions, have givenibuprofen or neproxen or some
other type of humananti-inflammatory for their
pet's pain.
(59:41):
And then they they aren't reallythinking about the dosing or the
amount or the sensitivity of it.
And then these guys are, youknow, they're coming in and
they've got stomach ulcerationsand they're in kidney failure.
And this is happening withpharmacists and human physicians
and nurses and pet parents who.
Who don't have a medicalbackground because they they
(01:00:03):
aren't they aren't expecting itto be such a difference between
dogs and cats and humans.
And so I think that's a really abig surprise for a lot of them.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:14):
My last mini question, because you brought up
grapes.
Do we know the toxic component?
Or like of what part of thegrape it's in?
Because I know for a while wedidn't, but I've heard recently
that perhaps there's moreinformation that's available.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:28):
Yeah, so there was a paper published uh last year
that was potentially linkingtartaric acid, uh, which is an
ingredient in grapes andraisins, as being the component.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done to be for us to
be able to say that's what itis.
If I remember correctly, thepaper was um was comparing uh
(01:00:50):
three cases.
And so we kind of need a littlebit more.
And the paper stated, you know,we need more research before we
can really say that's what itis.
I think a lot of people havetaken that paper and really run
with it and say this is what thecause of it is.
It might be, it very well mightbe, but um there's also a chance
(01:01:11):
that we that it's coincidentaland we still don't know what it
is.
We know that wine is usually notgoing to be an issue and grape
juice is usually not going to bean issue.
So things that have been kind ofprocessed um aren't as big of a
concern.
But grapes and raisins, even youknow, some people think if you
(01:01:31):
raisin bread wouldn't be aconcern because it's heated.
The downside is that yes, if itis tartaric acid, heat can um
heat can destabilize that, butwe don't know what that
temperature is.
And so there's still a there'sstill a risk, even if it's you
know, even if it's a bakedproduct.
So we usually, because theoutcome is fatal, the outcome is
(01:01:54):
irreversible kidney failure.
We typically still treat thempretty uh pretty cautiously.
So we have a campaign calledToxin Tails, and it's uh we send
out a press release every month,and it's something that we use,
it's an educational campaign tohelp uh pet parents become more
aware of different toxins thatare out there, as well as the
(01:02:15):
veterinary community.
And the good news about toxintails is that they all have a
happy ending.
And so it's a great story if youwant to feel good and kind of be
excited about these animals thathave had um, some of them maybe
have had a near-death experiencein the sense of being extremely
ill.
And some of them had just aclose call where it they maybe
(01:02:38):
they weren't as affected, butthey were in the story was great
and something to get out there,and it might be it might be
something like xylitol, or wehad a dog that ingested a
Fitbit, and the owner identifieduh figured out which dog got
into it because she took eachone of them for a trip around
the block and found uh which onewas still tracking because her
(01:03:00):
Fitbit was still tracking on herapp.
I know it's not funny at all,but I just can't.
But it's it it is, yeah.
It's a great, it is a greatstory because he did well.
He did have pests and have itremoved, but but he did
extremely well.
So it's just little stories likethat.
And so we like to we like tohighlight the the work that the
(01:03:20):
veterinary clinics are doing tosave these animals' lives on a
daily basis and just to educatethe pet owners and the in the
public in general on differenttoxin concerns.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:32):
That's fantastic.
Um, all right.
Well, thank you, Dr.
Schmidt and Dr.
Lindsay.
I appreciate both of you todayand have a wonderful holiday
season.
We're heading into the thick ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:42):
Yeah, thank you so much for your time and your
expertise.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03:45):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Baroo
Podcast, and a special thank youto Dr.
Lindsay Went for being myco-host again today.
If you suspect that your pet hasgotten into something that they
shouldn't have, you can call thePet Poison Help line.
It's 1-800-213-6680.
(01:04:09):
You can also find the phonenumber in the show notes and a
link to their website.
And if you enjoyed the episode,please don't forget to rate and
follow us for every listeningpodcast.
And you can also follow onInstagram at BaruPodcast.
And if you have a story of cameand companionship that you'd
like to share with me or aquestion, or even a comment, I
would love to hear from you, youcan email me, Charlotte at
(01:04:29):
theBaru.com.
All right, you guys, let's chattoo.
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