April 2, 2024 • 36 mins
When Anne, a survivor of parental abuse who sufferers from severe depression, unwittingly rescues a dog with serious aggression issues, she finds herself unable to give up on him. In this episode I chat with The Moth story slam winner and author of her memoir " Mattie, Milo and Me, " Anne Abel. She shares the raw and beautiful intricacies of forming an unbreakable bond with her dogs, the gut-wrenching grief of parting with a pet, and the bittersweet joy of opening her heart to another. Her journey isn't just about the dogs; it's about the life lessons they leave behind, and the patience and commitment required to embrace a rescue with a troubled past.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank you so much for popping on and joining me, anne
.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story.
You are the author of MaddieMilo and Me and I read your book
and I was really kind of blownaway by kind of the different
emotions that I felt throughoutthe book.
(00:22):
Your book brought me to tearsin some points.
I found myself laughing outloud in certain points, just
grinning and really rooting foryou and rooting for Milo
throughout the book, throughoutthe story and this is a memoir,
correct, right?
And is this your first book?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It is.
I have another one coming outfall 2025, but this is my first
one.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
That's fantastic, that's incredible, and it comes
out in April.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, A little under.
Yeah Next month.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Okay, Perfect, so what?
Um?
My first question for you.
Question for you is what madeyou decide that you wanted to
share your story?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
A couple things.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Maddie and Milo meant a lot to my family and me, yeah
, and I think everyone deservesto be remembered.
So I wanted to tell theirstories and also, I think,
people who.
I was not a dog person.
Initially I was anti-dog, but Ithink I learned that to say
(01:43):
you're anti-dog is like sayingyou're anti-people and I never
thought about the positive.
I didn't realize there werepositives with dogs and
different dogs bring differentthings to a relationship, and I
think Maddie and Milo were twovery different dogs but they
both meant a lot to me in verydifferent ways.
(02:04):
So I wanted to share thataspect of the story also.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean it really speaks kind of to the
human animal bond and how I meanthose of us, myself included,
who've had dogs who haveunexpectedly changed their lives
for the better and, kind of,you know, guided them on a
healing journey and taught usthings that we didn't know we
(02:33):
needed to know and didn't knowwe needed to learn, and really
showed up for us and had us showup for them in different ways
that were really unexpected.
And I think the book starts outwith you having a wonderful,
happy family dog, maddie, who'skind of like the quintessential,
(02:55):
seems like the dog thateverybody is hoping for, she's
happy, she's snuggly.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No work, absolutely no work, zero work, no work.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You didn't even have to walk her which is like most
people's dream, right?
Yeah, yeah, no work.
She was just kind of theregiving love.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I'd say she was like a living, breathing stuffed
animal who did nothing but givelove and take love.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's fantastic and that's enough.
I mean that's enough for manypeople.
That that's fantastic andthat's enough.
I mean that's enough for manypeople.
That is all the healing that alot of people need right.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It was more than enough for me.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, and then you, you know she sadly met a very
tragic death in the beginning ofthe book and in your life and
I'm so sorry that you had to gothrough that and you found
yourself.
And it also your book alsospeaks to the different ways
that people grieve, because alot of people I know I'm kind of
(03:53):
jumping around a bit, but Ireally found it important that
you know you.
You felt the need for you toget a new dog right away, right
Like immediately.
You needed something to fillthat void, to really be able to,
you know, focus you and whetheryou knew deep down inside it
was going to heal you in a wholenother way who's to say.
(04:16):
But you knew you had to do that.
And you know many people I thinkyou know some people say you
should get a dog right away.
Some people say you shouldn'tget a dog, you should allow
yourself to grieve.
But you just kind of trustedyourself and you went out and
got a new dog the next day whowas very, very different than
Maddie, right, I mean polaropposites.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, Milo was.
He was dangerous, he wasaggressive, he was out of
control.
When we met him we called himMello, Milo, and the next day
after we got him home, within afew hours, he was howling and
prowling, jumping and humping.
Then he bit my son twice.
He bit my son and as I'mbandaging his bloody wrist he
said I bet they sedated Milo atthe rescue before we got there.
(05:01):
And as soon as he said it, itseemed obvious to me and my
first reaction was, besidesbeing pissed, I'm taking this
monster back.
But the owner of the rescue hadvery cleverly had us walk
through the kennels and therewas Milo.
You know all the other dogswere at, you know clawing and
(05:21):
barking.
Milo was just curled up in aball at a bed of rags, looking
so pathetic and forlorn.
So when I thought of bringinghim back, taking him back, I
just couldn't.
I couldn't do that.
I didn't know if I could livewith him, but I knew I couldn't
live with myself.
Send him back.
And I had no idea what was instore for me.
(05:44):
I just knew I couldn't send himback.
Do you really no idea?
You know what was in store forme.
I just knew I couldn't send himback.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Do you really think that they sedated Milo first of
all before?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'm not going to.
I mean it's just our opinion.
I mean it was night and day.
It was night and day and I mean, and he just unraveled.
He continued to unravel afterwe got him home.
So I don't know, maybe they didmeditation on him, I don't know
.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Or maybe he just didn't know, because oftentimes
when I talk to rescues, fromwhat I know about shelter dogs,
my dog also came from a shelter.
Sometimes they do.
It's such a stressfulenvironment they don't really
know.
Yeah, they don't presentthemselves that way.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I have to say and I guess if you read the book you
saw this when we went for ourinterview at the school, she
said you know, they knew youwere vulnerable.
This is a hard to place dog.
We were the third family in 18months, so it wasn't like yes,
so I think there was.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
They should have given you a heads up.
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, To gofrom Maddie to this was you know
was total shock, but somewherein there he saw that you would,
you guys might be the right fit,or so he says.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
That I worked from home.
Someone probably told him Iworked.
Who knows what went on behindthe scenes Got it.
I remember he called me you knowI spoke to, he called me right
and he said oh, we have lots ofdogs, but let me tell you about
Milo.
And I remember writing M I L O.
And then he said but of coursewe have lots of dogs.
So if you don't like Milo, so Ithought, okay, maybe he's a
(07:25):
salesman, but he's offering meother things too.
I offering me other things too.
I'll go see Milo.
And then I guess, if in thebook when, and then we fell in
love with Milo immediately, andthen I realized I needed to be a
little bit mature about this.
I said, oh, but I really wanteda small dog.
He said, oh, fine, We'll putMilo back.
(07:46):
Go in the waiting room, Milo,we met out in the meadow.
But then he puts us in thistiny unleashes, this little
scooter, which, who was aptlynamed Scooter, and he was just
ricocheting off the walls.
My youngest son, who is theleast talkative in my family,
said take Scooter back, we wantMilo you know, this guy knew
(08:10):
what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, milo was gorgeous and Iused to say to people his look
saved his life.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That was one of my lines.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, he was gorgeous and he had those soulful eyes.
You really speak to.
Also the dedication you reallywere really dedicated to helping
Milo and Milo become, you know,a part of your family, a part
of a, a part of society.
Um, he had a lot of behavioralstuff but you were incredibly
dedicated to him and throughoutthat dedication you, you ended
(08:45):
up learning, you ended up goingon your own healing journey.
Um, do you want to speak tothat a little bit Well?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
first of all, I wanted another dog immediately
Because of my depression.
I needed a distraction, and hewas a distraction.
I mean, with Milo I had to bein the moment, every single
moment, 24-7.
So your usual negative thoughtsand all the other things, they
(09:12):
kind of got shoved to the backquite a bit because it was
survival.
It really was survival.
I mean I was what was standingbetween Milo and his being sent
back and Milo attacking the restof the world, if not my family,
so you know.
So it really kept me veryfocused and I ended up having to
learn all sorts of new thingsand I met all sorts of new
(09:34):
people.
You know, it took me.
I didn't know it, I was adepressed extra extrovert.
I thought it was an introvert.
I'm actually an extrovert.
So he just pulled me into thiscommunity that I didn't even
know existed, and so there werelots of good things that came
out of it besides my justfalling in love with and also we
(09:56):
would do these intense thingslike I took him to that Bed Bath
Beyond, because the teachersaid you have to de-trigger him
and I said, oh, so I'm takingthis dog, who will attack
anything that moves, and I'mtaking him to a crowded place.
But when you do intense thingslike this with another this dog,
who will attack anything thatmoves, and I'm taking him to him
, him to a crowded place.
But you know, when you dointense things like this with
another, whether a person or adog, you, it's a different kind
(10:20):
of bond than a bond where yousnuggle with some.
You know, you, you've beenthrough something together.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I mean, I think it builds a relationship, yeah, and
seeing the, seeing the changein your dog and going, and
seeing you know the little thepositive moves that they make is
inspiring, oh my God, in theend, when I had to go into the
(10:46):
woods every single day and Ihated the woods, but then I
would see him going soaringacross.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
And for those, I still get the chills when I
remember that and I would seethis animal who had been on this
bed of rags and now here he was, having a chance to be who he
wanted and needed to be.
And it just there wasn't a daythat went by that I didn't
compare the dog I had with thedog I had seen in the rescue,
and it just there wasn't a daythat went by that I didn't
compare the dog I had with thedog I had seen in the rescue and
(11:15):
it just made me feel so good tothink I could, I could have
affected someone's life this way.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Absolutely.
I know from my own, my own dog.
I created my whole businessafter um, I have a dog care
business.
I have had one for 15 years andI created it because of my dog,
because I wanted to spend everymoment with my dog and he did
have.
He had severe, he had a lot ofstranger danger.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
He was one of the dogs.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
He's a mix, he's a Heinz 57.
He's like 52 pounds.
Well, 62 pounds at the time,but he's now 52 pounds, um, and
he's uh.
Yeah, he had.
He was wonderful with dogs,which was helpful for my
business.
But he had a lot of strangerdanger, for until he was about
five or six years old and I gothim around a year, so it was
(12:07):
just constant.
I had to be on my toesconstantly, constantly did the
same thing rewarding him withtreats when people would
approach.
He was like so nervous and hedid.
He bit a woman once because hegot so nervous and confused.
He redirected on her and so Itotally can relate to that need
and when I see him now, he lovespeople.
(12:28):
I mean.
It took years, you know.
It took a long time.
It took a lot of patience, butthroughout that process it it
helped me as well.
It helped me to have that focus.
What is one of the biggestthings that you think Milo
taught you?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Oh, um, well, or gifts, a couple of things.
I was brought up brought upbeing told that I should ask for
nothing, including help, that Iwas a burden.
And with Milo, well, right fromthe beginning I had to ask for
help.
But then there was a pointwhere I was going to have
(13:05):
surgery and you know theteacher's like, no, you can't
have surgery.
But and I accepted help frompeople even though I was.
You know, it made meuncomfortable, but first of all,
I did it for Milo and it taughtme that it's it's okay.
It's okay to ask for help andwhen people offer, they're being
(13:28):
, they're probably being sincereabout it.
So I think I learned about itbeing okay to not do everything
on your own and just being opento receiving.
And just, I mean I'm a verypersevering person but you know,
just, just, constantly you knowbeing on top of him, and you
(13:54):
know I got a little lazy as timewent on.
You know I well, that was alsoin the book about not being I'm
not an alpha.
I mean that also was beaten outof me and at the very beginning
I, you know, I, had to makebelieve I was really the alpha,
but I think we both knew Iwasn't.
You know he, he was a smart dogand we, most of the time he
(14:15):
played, although he played along.
But Milo, in the 10 years we hadhim he never bit anyone outside
the family, but every year heprobably bit my husband and or
me.
I mean, a week before he died,a thing of soup fell out of the
refrigerator.
My husband went to grab it.
Milo bit him on the wrist andmy husband said you know, that's
(14:35):
the rule, if it hits the groundit's Milo's.
But and people would see us invarious bandages and say, oh,
you've got to get rid of thatanimal.
But he's not an animal, he'spart of our family and that was,
you know that's his glitch.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
He had a glitch no one's perfect Right and you made
the decision to manage that thebest you could, and it could
have been a lot worse had younot put in all the incredible
work that you did.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I couldn't have kept him.
Another thing is I had threesons and they were just so easy
I mean, I didn't have to be analpha with them and all of a
sudden, you know they werealways the good kids in school
and everything and all of asudden I was the mother of the
bad boy.
And I have to say it was alittle uncomfortable in school
there at the beginning, but Ihad to learn how to love him
(15:29):
even though he was a bad boy,Right, and you had to learn how
to love him, even though he wasa bad boy Right and you had to
show up for him.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And also when you have a quote unquote bad dog,
your whatever it draws attentionto you also so and and you
think people are, yeah, and whenyou think people are judging
you as a which is something thatwe've made clear here, it's not
.
There's no judgment on.
You know, dogs are acting outbecause they either have not
(15:56):
gotten historically haven'tgotten the guidance that they
needed, or they are fearful, or,you know, some of it can be
biological and all of thosethings, yeah, so it doesn't mean
that they're a bad dog or thatyou're a bad dog, mom.
So, yeah, so can we speak alittle bit on your process of
(16:17):
writing, because I've mentionedhere before, I recently had a
writer and I don't get a lot ofwriters on my podcast.
Writing is something that Ialways wish I could do.
I'm surrounded by someincredible writers.
My sister is also a writer andan editor as well, and she's
been doing that for many years.
I cannot focus enough to savemy life to sit down and really,
(16:42):
really, you know, write.
So I'm curious what some ofyour tricks for writer's block
or if any, I mean because thisis such a personal story, it may
have flowed in a way that waseasier than others I have to
tell you you mentioned writer'sblock.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I have severe, severe , severe writer's block Again,
growing up, every night, at thedinner table my father would say
to me, you can listen but don'tspeak.
And he actually made me be achemical engineer as an
undergraduate, even though Ican't add three numbers.
And then I went back to schoolin my forties and got an MFA and
(17:23):
I did a lot of freelancewriting.
And if someone said to me, goin the backyard and write 5,000
words on that tree some editorwanted it I could do that.
But if I sat down and tried towrite anything about myself
within a minute I'd be under thedesk Like that's stupid.
That's stupid, who cares, whocares.
And I dealt with that.
(17:44):
And then in 2016, my husband isa professor.
We lived in Philadelphia, wewent to Chicago for supposedly
four months for him to visit theUniversity of Chicago and it
was December I mean January,it's eight degrees out.
I signed up for improv, becausethat didn't last very long and
improv.
I got kicked out after a whileand then my dog walker came and
(18:06):
I said what do you do whenyou're not walking dogs?
And she said, oh, I host astorytelling open mic.
You should come, you can tell astory.
And I said what do you do whenyou're not walking dogs?
And she said, oh, I host astorytelling open mic.
You should come, you can tell astory.
And I said, well, I'm not goingto tell a story, but I'll come.
And I'd never heard ofstorytelling.
Well, anyhow, I had something init, one thing that I thought
would be a story, which is whatmy second memoir is about, and I
went to just to see what it,and it had to do with Bruce
(18:28):
Springsteen.
And I went to the open mic andthese three guys got up and one
talked about how hard it waswhen his wife was in labor.
The other one about he went toWoodstock and he cheated on his
fiance.
And another one he had abusedhis first two wives but now he
was a great human being.
And I just thought and I neverthink this, I can do better than
(18:48):
that.
And I thought of a story 40years, an anecdote, and I'd
never stood in front of a mic.
And I got up and I said I cameto learn how to tell a story
about Bruce Springsteen andeveryone cheers and I said but
instead I'm going to tell astory about sex.
I mean, it wasn't really, andthey cheer even more.
And I told my four minute storyand people came up to me and
then I did another open mic andthen people started.
(19:11):
And you know, when you get thatkind of positive feedback for
just telling a little story, youknow, and then I started doing
quite a bit of it in Chicago andthen I went to the Moth.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
The Moth Story Hour?
Yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
They have these story slams.
So someone said I'd never heardof the Moth.
This is 2016, 17.
And I went and then I ended upwinning a couple story slams
there.
Then we moved to New York andmy goal was to win one in New
York and I actually won for theMilo story and that kind of that
(19:47):
was another reason.
And afterwards, like the nextmonth, I was back there and I
heard this man say to hisgirlfriend I was here last month
and this woman told thisamazing story about her dog and
I'm like, so that kind ofinspired me.
You know when you get yeah.
So I had actually startedwriting this Bruce Springsteen
(20:07):
story and the editor had it andit was taking a long time.
This was during the lockdown,so I just sat down and I just
started writing this story aboutMilo and in the end I realized
it was a more straight forwardstory.
(20:27):
So I concentrated on this oneand got that one accepted.
But it really helped doing thisstorytelling and having people
actually say, yes, that's astory I want to hear more.
That's what I needed.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Right, absolutely.
I mean it sounds like and I'mso sorry, but it sounds that you
know you really your voice waspretty much squashed growing up
and so it's pretty, it's verybeautiful that you were able to.
It sounds like one of the firsttimes you're really able to
speak your voice.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
And it's still a struggle.
I mean it's still a struggle.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
It's always a struggle.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And so with the storytelling, I thought, well,
maybe I really wanted to honethose skills.
So I contacted this woman whowas a storytelling coach and the
first thing she said to me was,if I could make, wave a magic
wand and grant you a wish, whatwould it be which complete?
I thought you're going to askme my goals for storytelling and
I I don't know why I said it.
But I said write a book.
(21:28):
And she said well then, that'swhat you've got to do.
And I was like so for threemonths I fought myself on it and
I didn't do it.
And I got increasingly angry atmyself.
And I work out every day verydisciplined.
And I said to him finally, Isaid, okay, you're going to do
it.
You never feel like working out, but you do it and you always
(21:49):
feel better.
You don't question it.
So you're going to do the samething with writing.
Okay, after you work out,you're just going to go sit down
at your desk at 11 o'clock andyou're going to sit there till
one and you're just going towrite.
And so what I ended up doing wasI just wrote anything that came
into my head about this storywith Bruce Springsteen, because
(22:12):
if I started censoring it, I'dbe shut down again, and the
first draft was a thousand pages.
I mean the final one's 350.
But anything that ever happenedto me in my life was in that
manuscript, because I was afraid, yeah, you know, if I went down
that um so.
(22:32):
So part of it's just thediscipline.
Yeah, you just say, okay,you're just going to sit here,
yeah, and see what happens.
If you can just get into itlike, and I would have a muse,
like my husband, I have a goodfriend and my husband and I
would what I actually wouldwrite to them like that's who I
was writing for um, and then Iwould show it.
(22:53):
My husband's not a writer, andthen afterwards I'd show it to
me and go okay, that's good,that's good, yeah, you know.
But so I had these two peoplein my mind.
You know very, very positivepeople, you know, and so I use
them as my muses.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I love that.
As I've always said, like youknow, it's the same as dog
training positive reinforcementand positive associations.
It really works.
It really works.
Especially, you know, no onewants to people shut down when
you're negative and or they lashout.
They shut down or lash out, butwhen it's positive, it's
encouraging and it makes youwant to do more, it makes you
(23:31):
want to do better, it makes youwant to keep going.
So it really does work.
It's your own form of treatshappening Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So, or if you do do this, then you can go and do
this you know, just do this geta donut, or whatever, go
shopping right whatever umexactly I also love that and you
, you, you touched on this.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
But, um, circling back to the book, how your
memoir, how how you realize thatpeople are actually rooting for
you, cause sometimes, um, likeespecially at that moment when
you needed to get surgery andpeople were actually saw you,
they saw you.
You know, it's like a momentwhere you're actually being seen
by somebody, especially givenyour, your history.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It was shocking to me when I would hear I mean even
you know, all through the years,when I'd hear that I would have
to stop and step out of myselfand look at myself through these
people's eyes, see what theywere seeing, cause it was just
um, it was so unknown to me,unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Right, these dogs help us in so many ways we just
don't really.
We have no idea.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
At the end of the book.
When I get Yat, I get thislittle chihuahua.
Well, I want to tell you acouple of things.
So he's 19 and a half now.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I was going to ask you if they were still with you.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, and I have two rescue Bichons who are a little
younger than he is.
They're like 14.
I think of them as young, butanyhow.
So I hired this dog walker alittle over a year ago and I
didn't know.
But she has a three and a halfpound, 14 year old blind
Chihuahua and she's she's in herearly thirties.
(25:19):
And then then last year I hadall these Achilles tendon
problems.
I had a boot on.
You know all this stuff and myhusband works in Philadelphia
during the week and I'm herealone and I couldn't handle.
You know, ryan, you know he was18 and a half then.
He's just so much work.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So you changed his name to Ryan.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Ryan, yes, I'm sorry.
Yeah, so she would take him toher house Mondays through
Thursday and he'd be with her.
Her little dog's name is Africa.
They're from Russia, okay, andrecently Russia.
And then this is a funny storybut my granddaughter is only
allowed to wear dresses toweddings.
(26:01):
She's seven, six, and she lovesdresses and we had no more
weddings.
So I got this idea last Junethat we would have this wedding
and I want you to know we hadDecember 29th.
We had the most beautifulwedding here with these two
little dogs.
Oh, I love it.
It was.
You know the grandchildren andfriends.
(26:23):
You know they guided the dogs.
We had the whole.
We wore, my husband wore a suit, I wore the dress.
I wore to my son's wedding, andit was, it was.
It was one of the nicest events.
I mean, there weren't manyguests, but it was like it was a
celebration of longevity.
It was a celebration oflongevity, it was a celebration
of connections and everybody wasjust there for the right, you
(26:46):
know, just celebrate these twodogs.
It was joy anyhow ryan's got.
Yeah, it was just beautiful.
I mean, it was really nice.
Meanwhile, ryan is completelyincontinent.
My husband's 71, he comes andyou know he he would be up four
times a night putting ryan outand cleaning the back.
(27:06):
I mean, yeah, well, actually Itook one look at my husband on
saturday and I could just seeand I texted anna.
So ryan is now living with annaand anna's moving to Tampa and
then she's moving to LA and thenshe's moving to LA and she's
(27:26):
such an amazing person.
She said to me she came overhere to pick something up and
she said I feel like I hit thejackpot.
Now I have two.
So, anyhow, I have two sons whogot married and they moved to
California.
And my husband said thisweekend well, it's just the way
it is in our family Our boys getmarried and they move to.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
California.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Anyhow, you know, it's kind of bittersweet because
we love this dog so much, butit's just really hard when you
get old, when you're gettingolder.
No, absolutely, when you haveold dogs and old people.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
You know it's difficult, but I think you
manage that in a reallyresponsible and loving way and I
think the people need to.
You know that's something thatpeople can take away, because
you made sure that that you sawan opportunity to give that dog
care the kind of care in acomfortable way that it needed,
and then he was fine with andalso taking care of yourself,
because we also do need to takecare of ourselves.
(28:21):
You know, and caretaking anolder dog is can be tough.
I mean, it's just likecaretaking anything needs a lot
of tender, loving care and timecan be rough physically and
emotionally and all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
She told me a funny story Ryan, he does this
twirling.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I don't know if other dogs I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
He's unable, he just twirls and he can't any longer
calm himself down and you knowI'll rub him.
Yeah, but she said he'll starttwirling and then Africa, his
wife, will bark at him and he'lllook at her and go oh, that's
so funny.
It's like they're like a littlecouple.
She said he likes to sleep, butshe said she'll get ready to
(29:01):
take Afrika for a walk andAfrika will be jingling and Ryan
looks up, you know.
So there is a dynamic between Ithink there is a synergy having
the two of them.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
When Milo passed after many years I mean 10 years
you had Milo 10.
You also decided to go getanother two other dogs, and this
is when you found what was hisname.
What was Ryan's name before?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And one other.
And the other guy was is hestill with us Spam?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
No no.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
When those two came into your life.
How did that?
What were the lessons that theytaught you, do you think?
Because they were verydifferent.
They were much easier perhaps,and oh my God.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, one was Sam the little Bichon.
Yeah, he was a year old andsome woman had.
He clearly had been loved hiswhole life and he was just.
Ryan was a little jittery, youknow, he'd been on the side of a
puppy mill, I guess, but hejust needed to really be loved
and he calmed down.
(30:08):
But about 10 years ago I was onthe beach with Ryan and then
these two other Bichons I haveand this man about 70, came over
to me to talk and I said, oh,do you have a dog?
He said well, I used to, but Ijust can't go through the
heartbreak anymore and it ishard.
You forget how horrible it isuntil it happens and people who
(30:33):
don't have animals don'tunderstand it.
On the other hand, by going outand opening up again, you know
you bring in more.
You're giving yourself a chanceto get more love, you know
given.
So I mean.
So I know it's heartbreakingand it's easy to say, oh, I can
do it, but I think eventuallyyou do fall in love with the
(30:56):
next one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
No, that's something that I'm going to keep with me,
because, yeah, I've never heardsomeone say it quite in that way
.
Because, yeah, you are, you'rekeeping yourself open to love.
You're not shutting down, soyou're not holding on to the
pain, you're just finding aplace for, and that can come
within time for some, but you'renot allowing yourself to shut
down.
You are staying open andkeeping that energy moving and,
(31:20):
if not you, for the creaturethat might need your love right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Right, I mean truth.
Like when we got Milo at therescue and my kids wanted to.
They wanted to wait forMaddie's memory, but I knew I
needed.
I said, look, just think aboutit.
If we get a dog at a rescuetoday, at least one creature in
this world would be better offfor Maddie dying.
(31:47):
I mean, it was just such ahorrible thing.
At least someone, someone willbe better off for it, right?
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Right, absolutely.
This is such a beautiful storyand I know it's your memoir and
it's in, and what is the onething that you hope the reader
takes away from reading yourmemoir?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Even if you're not a pet person or an animal person.
I think the one of theimportant things to understand
with people or dogs is if youunderstand an individual's
unique characteristics, itreally helps you build a bridge
to creating a relationship withthat person or with that dog or
(32:28):
with that living being.
You know.
If you understand what theother living being is coming
from, it helps you reach out andmake that connection.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I mean, like as I got to understand Milo, you know it
was easier for me to meet himwith what he needed, finding
that common ground and yeah, andnurturing it, yeah, and also
individuality.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I think it's important in people and it's
important in appreciating no twopeople and no two dogs are
alike and you just have to, whenyou get your new dog you know,
appreciate it for what he or sheis.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I really appreciate you sharing your story with us
because it really touches on alot of the gifts that you know
our dogs give us, and I can seehow it would be therapeutic for
you to write that as well.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And remember these creatures, these living beings.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, memorialize them Absolutely.
I love that Well.
Thank you, anne.
I so appreciate you joining me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Thank you All right.
Thank you so much for popping on and joining me, anne
.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story.
You are the author of MaddieMilo and Me and I read your book
and I was really kind of blownaway by kind of the different
emotions that I felt throughoutthe book.
(00:22):
Your book brought me to tearsin some points.
I found myself laughing outloud in certain points, just
grinning and really rooting foryou and rooting for Milo
throughout the book, throughoutthe story and this is a memoir,
correct, right?
And is this your first book?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It is.
I have another one coming outfall 2025, but this is my first
one.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
That's fantastic, that's incredible, and it comes
out in April.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, A little under.
Yeah Next month.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Okay, Perfect, so what?
Um?
My first question for you.
Question for you is what madeyou decide that you wanted to
share your story?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
A couple things.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Maddie and Milo meant a lot to my family and me, yeah
, and I think everyone deservesto be remembered.
So I wanted to tell theirstories and also, I think,
people who.
I was not a dog person.
Initially I was anti-dog, but Ithink I learned that to say
(01:43):
you're anti-dog is like sayingyou're anti-people and I never
thought about the positive.
I didn't realize there werepositives with dogs and
different dogs bring differentthings to a relationship, and I
think Maddie and Milo were twovery different dogs but they
both meant a lot to me in verydifferent ways.
(02:04):
So I wanted to share thataspect of the story also.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I mean it really speaks kind of to the
human animal bond and how I meanthose of us, myself included,
who've had dogs who haveunexpectedly changed their lives
for the better and, kind of,you know, guided them on a
healing journey and taught usthings that we didn't know we
(02:33):
needed to know and didn't knowwe needed to learn, and really
showed up for us and had us showup for them in different ways
that were really unexpected.
And I think the book starts outwith you having a wonderful,
happy family dog, maddie, who'skind of like the quintessential,
(02:55):
seems like the dog thateverybody is hoping for, she's
happy, she's snuggly.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
No work, absolutely no work, zero work, no work.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
You didn't even have to walk her which is like most
people's dream, right?
Yeah, yeah, no work.
She was just kind of theregiving love.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I'd say she was like a living, breathing stuffed
animal who did nothing but givelove and take love.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
That's fantastic and that's enough.
I mean that's enough for manypeople.
That that's fantastic andthat's enough.
I mean that's enough for manypeople.
That is all the healing that alot of people need right.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
It was more than enough for me.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, and then you, you know she sadly met a very
tragic death in the beginning ofthe book and in your life and
I'm so sorry that you had to gothrough that and you found
yourself.
And it also your book alsospeaks to the different ways
that people grieve, because alot of people I know I'm kind of
(03:53):
jumping around a bit, but Ireally found it important that
you know you.
You felt the need for you toget a new dog right away, right
Like immediately.
You needed something to fillthat void, to really be able to,
you know, focus you and whetheryou knew deep down inside it
was going to heal you in a wholenother way who's to say.
(04:16):
But you knew you had to do that.
And you know many people I thinkyou know some people say you
should get a dog right away.
Some people say you shouldn'tget a dog, you should allow
yourself to grieve.
But you just kind of trustedyourself and you went out and
got a new dog the next day whowas very, very different than
Maddie, right, I mean polaropposites.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, Milo was.
He was dangerous, he wasaggressive, he was out of
control.
When we met him we called himMello, Milo, and the next day
after we got him home, within afew hours, he was howling and
prowling, jumping and humping.
Then he bit my son twice.
He bit my son and as I'mbandaging his bloody wrist he
said I bet they sedated Milo atthe rescue before we got there.
(05:01):
And as soon as he said it, itseemed obvious to me and my
first reaction was, besidesbeing pissed, I'm taking this
monster back.
But the owner of the rescue hadvery cleverly had us walk
through the kennels and therewas Milo.
You know all the other dogswere at, you know clawing and
(05:21):
barking.
Milo was just curled up in aball at a bed of rags, looking
so pathetic and forlorn.
So when I thought of bringinghim back, taking him back, I
just couldn't.
I couldn't do that.
I didn't know if I could livewith him, but I knew I couldn't
live with myself.
Send him back.
And I had no idea what was instore for me.
(05:44):
I just knew I couldn't send himback.
Do you really no idea?
You know what was in store forme.
I just knew I couldn't send himback.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Do you really think that they sedated Milo first of
all before?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'm not going to.
I mean it's just our opinion.
I mean it was night and day.
It was night and day and I mean, and he just unraveled.
He continued to unravel afterwe got him home.
So I don't know, maybe they didmeditation on him, I don't know
.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Or maybe he just didn't know, because oftentimes
when I talk to rescues, fromwhat I know about shelter dogs,
my dog also came from a shelter.
Sometimes they do.
It's such a stressfulenvironment they don't really
know.
Yeah, they don't presentthemselves that way.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I have to say and I guess if you read the book you
saw this when we went for ourinterview at the school, she
said you know, they knew youwere vulnerable.
This is a hard to place dog.
We were the third family in 18months, so it wasn't like yes,
so I think there was.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
They should have given you a heads up.
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, To gofrom Maddie to this was you know
was total shock, but somewherein there he saw that you would,
you guys might be the right fit,or so he says.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
That I worked from home.
Someone probably told him Iworked.
Who knows what went on behindthe scenes Got it.
I remember he called me you knowI spoke to, he called me right
and he said oh, we have lots ofdogs, but let me tell you about
Milo.
And I remember writing M I L O.
And then he said but of coursewe have lots of dogs.
So if you don't like Milo, so Ithought, okay, maybe he's a
(07:25):
salesman, but he's offering meother things too.
I offering me other things too.
I'll go see Milo.
And then I guess, if in thebook when, and then we fell in
love with Milo immediately, andthen I realized I needed to be a
little bit mature about this.
I said, oh, but I really wanteda small dog.
He said, oh, fine, We'll putMilo back.
(07:46):
Go in the waiting room, Milo,we met out in the meadow.
But then he puts us in thistiny unleashes, this little
scooter, which, who was aptlynamed Scooter, and he was just
ricocheting off the walls.
My youngest son, who is theleast talkative in my family,
said take Scooter back, we wantMilo you know, this guy knew
(08:10):
what he was doing.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, milo was gorgeous and Iused to say to people his look
saved his life.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
That was one of my lines.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, he was gorgeous and he had those soulful eyes.
You really speak to.
Also the dedication you reallywere really dedicated to helping
Milo and Milo become, you know,a part of your family, a part
of a, a part of society.
Um, he had a lot of behavioralstuff but you were incredibly
dedicated to him and throughoutthat dedication you, you ended
(08:45):
up learning, you ended up goingon your own healing journey.
Um, do you want to speak tothat a little bit Well?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
first of all, I wanted another dog immediately
Because of my depression.
I needed a distraction, and hewas a distraction.
I mean, with Milo I had to bein the moment, every single
moment, 24-7.
So your usual negative thoughtsand all the other things, they
(09:12):
kind of got shoved to the backquite a bit because it was
survival.
It really was survival.
I mean I was what was standingbetween Milo and his being sent
back and Milo attacking the restof the world, if not my family,
so you know.
So it really kept me veryfocused and I ended up having to
learn all sorts of new thingsand I met all sorts of new
(09:34):
people.
You know, it took me.
I didn't know it, I was adepressed extra extrovert.
I thought it was an introvert.
I'm actually an extrovert.
So he just pulled me into thiscommunity that I didn't even
know existed, and so there werelots of good things that came
out of it besides my justfalling in love with and also we
(09:56):
would do these intense thingslike I took him to that Bed Bath
Beyond, because the teachersaid you have to de-trigger him
and I said, oh, so I'm takingthis dog, who will attack
anything that moves, and I'mtaking him to a crowded place.
But when you do intense thingslike this with another this dog,
who will attack anything thatmoves, and I'm taking him to him
, him to a crowded place.
But you know, when you dointense things like this with
another, whether a person or adog, you, it's a different kind
(10:20):
of bond than a bond where yousnuggle with some.
You know, you, you've beenthrough something together.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I mean, I think it builds a relationship, yeah, and
seeing the, seeing the changein your dog and going, and
seeing you know the little thepositive moves that they make is
inspiring, oh my God, in theend, when I had to go into the
(10:46):
woods every single day and Ihated the woods, but then I
would see him going soaringacross.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
And for those, I still get the chills when I
remember that and I would seethis animal who had been on this
bed of rags and now here he was, having a chance to be who he
wanted and needed to be.
And it just there wasn't a daythat went by that I didn't
compare the dog I had with thedog I had seen in the rescue,
and it just there wasn't a daythat went by that I didn't
compare the dog I had with thedog I had seen in the rescue and
(11:15):
it just made me feel so good tothink I could, I could have
affected someone's life this way.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Absolutely.
I know from my own, my own dog.
I created my whole businessafter um, I have a dog care
business.
I have had one for 15 years andI created it because of my dog,
because I wanted to spend everymoment with my dog and he did
have.
He had severe, he had a lot ofstranger danger.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
He was one of the dogs.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
He's a mix, he's a Heinz 57.
He's like 52 pounds.
Well, 62 pounds at the time,but he's now 52 pounds, um, and
he's uh.
Yeah, he had.
He was wonderful with dogs,which was helpful for my
business.
But he had a lot of strangerdanger, for until he was about
five or six years old and I gothim around a year, so it was
(12:07):
just constant.
I had to be on my toesconstantly, constantly did the
same thing rewarding him withtreats when people would
approach.
He was like so nervous and hedid.
He bit a woman once because hegot so nervous and confused.
He redirected on her and so Itotally can relate to that need
and when I see him now, he lovespeople.
(12:28):
I mean.
It took years, you know.
It took a long time.
It took a lot of patience, butthroughout that process it it
helped me as well.
It helped me to have that focus.
What is one of the biggestthings that you think Milo
taught you?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Oh, um, well, or gifts, a couple of things.
I was brought up brought upbeing told that I should ask for
nothing, including help, that Iwas a burden.
And with Milo, well, right fromthe beginning I had to ask for
help.
But then there was a pointwhere I was going to have
(13:05):
surgery and you know theteacher's like, no, you can't
have surgery.
But and I accepted help frompeople even though I was.
You know, it made meuncomfortable, but first of all,
I did it for Milo and it taughtme that it's it's okay.
It's okay to ask for help andwhen people offer, they're being
(13:28):
, they're probably being sincereabout it.
So I think I learned about itbeing okay to not do everything
on your own and just being opento receiving.
And just, I mean I'm a verypersevering person but you know,
just, just, constantly you knowbeing on top of him, and you
(13:54):
know I got a little lazy as timewent on.
You know I well, that was alsoin the book about not being I'm
not an alpha.
I mean that also was beaten outof me and at the very beginning
I, you know, I, had to makebelieve I was really the alpha,
but I think we both knew Iwasn't.
You know he, he was a smart dogand we, most of the time he
(14:15):
played, although he played along.
But Milo, in the 10 years we hadhim he never bit anyone outside
the family, but every year heprobably bit my husband and or
me.
I mean, a week before he died,a thing of soup fell out of the
refrigerator.
My husband went to grab it.
Milo bit him on the wrist andmy husband said you know, that's
(14:35):
the rule, if it hits the groundit's Milo's.
But and people would see us invarious bandages and say, oh,
you've got to get rid of thatanimal.
But he's not an animal, he'spart of our family and that was,
you know that's his glitch.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
He had a glitch no one's perfect Right and you made
the decision to manage that thebest you could, and it could
have been a lot worse had younot put in all the incredible
work that you did.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I couldn't have kept him.
Another thing is I had threesons and they were just so easy
I mean, I didn't have to be analpha with them and all of a
sudden, you know they werealways the good kids in school
and everything and all of asudden I was the mother of the
bad boy.
And I have to say it was alittle uncomfortable in school
there at the beginning, but Ihad to learn how to love him
(15:29):
even though he was a bad boy,Right, and you had to learn how
to love him, even though he wasa bad boy Right and you had to
show up for him.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And also when you have a quote unquote bad dog,
your whatever it draws attentionto you also so and and you
think people are, yeah, and whenyou think people are judging
you as a which is something thatwe've made clear here, it's not
.
There's no judgment on.
You know, dogs are acting outbecause they either have not
(15:56):
gotten historically haven'tgotten the guidance that they
needed, or they are fearful, or,you know, some of it can be
biological and all of thosethings, yeah, so it doesn't mean
that they're a bad dog or thatyou're a bad dog, mom.
So, yeah, so can we speak alittle bit on your process of
(16:17):
writing, because I've mentionedhere before, I recently had a
writer and I don't get a lot ofwriters on my podcast.
Writing is something that Ialways wish I could do.
I'm surrounded by someincredible writers.
My sister is also a writer andan editor as well, and she's
been doing that for many years.
I cannot focus enough to savemy life to sit down and really,
(16:42):
really, you know, write.
So I'm curious what some ofyour tricks for writer's block
or if any, I mean because thisis such a personal story, it may
have flowed in a way that waseasier than others I have to
tell you you mentioned writer'sblock.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
I have severe, severe , severe writer's block Again,
growing up, every night, at thedinner table my father would say
to me, you can listen but don'tspeak.
And he actually made me be achemical engineer as an
undergraduate, even though Ican't add three numbers.
And then I went back to schoolin my forties and got an MFA and
(17:23):
I did a lot of freelancewriting.
And if someone said to me, goin the backyard and write 5,000
words on that tree some editorwanted it I could do that.
But if I sat down and tried towrite anything about myself
within a minute I'd be under thedesk Like that's stupid.
That's stupid, who cares, whocares.
And I dealt with that.
(17:44):
And then in 2016, my husband isa professor.
We lived in Philadelphia, wewent to Chicago for supposedly
four months for him to visit theUniversity of Chicago and it
was December I mean January,it's eight degrees out.
I signed up for improv, becausethat didn't last very long and
improv.
I got kicked out after a whileand then my dog walker came and
(18:06):
I said what do you do whenyou're not walking dogs?
And she said, oh, I host astorytelling open mic.
You should come, you can tell astory.
And I said what do you do whenyou're not walking dogs?
And she said, oh, I host astorytelling open mic.
You should come, you can tell astory.
And I said, well, I'm not goingto tell a story, but I'll come.
And I'd never heard ofstorytelling.
Well, anyhow, I had something init, one thing that I thought
would be a story, which is whatmy second memoir is about, and I
went to just to see what it,and it had to do with Bruce
(18:28):
Springsteen.
And I went to the open mic andthese three guys got up and one
talked about how hard it waswhen his wife was in labor.
The other one about he went toWoodstock and he cheated on his
fiance.
And another one he had abusedhis first two wives but now he
was a great human being.
And I just thought and I neverthink this, I can do better than
(18:48):
that.
And I thought of a story 40years, an anecdote, and I'd
never stood in front of a mic.
And I got up and I said I cameto learn how to tell a story
about Bruce Springsteen andeveryone cheers and I said but
instead I'm going to tell astory about sex.
I mean, it wasn't really, andthey cheer even more.
And I told my four minute storyand people came up to me and
then I did another open mic andthen people started.
(19:11):
And you know, when you get thatkind of positive feedback for
just telling a little story, youknow, and then I started doing
quite a bit of it in Chicago andthen I went to the Moth.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
The Moth Story Hour?
Yes, of course.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
They have these story slams.
So someone said I'd never heardof the Moth.
This is 2016, 17.
And I went and then I ended upwinning a couple story slams
there.
Then we moved to New York andmy goal was to win one in New
York and I actually won for theMilo story and that kind of that
(19:47):
was another reason.
And afterwards, like the nextmonth, I was back there and I
heard this man say to hisgirlfriend I was here last month
and this woman told thisamazing story about her dog and
I'm like, so that kind ofinspired me.
You know when you get yeah.
So I had actually startedwriting this Bruce Springsteen
(20:07):
story and the editor had it andit was taking a long time.
This was during the lockdown,so I just sat down and I just
started writing this story aboutMilo and in the end I realized
it was a more straight forwardstory.
(20:27):
So I concentrated on this oneand got that one accepted.
But it really helped doing thisstorytelling and having people
actually say, yes, that's astory I want to hear more.
That's what I needed.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Right, absolutely.
I mean it sounds like and I'mso sorry, but it sounds that you
know you really your voice waspretty much squashed growing up
and so it's pretty, it's verybeautiful that you were able to.
It sounds like one of the firsttimes you're really able to
speak your voice.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
And it's still a struggle.
I mean it's still a struggle.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
It's always a struggle.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
And so with the storytelling, I thought, well,
maybe I really wanted to honethose skills.
So I contacted this woman whowas a storytelling coach and the
first thing she said to me was,if I could make, wave a magic
wand and grant you a wish, whatwould it be which complete?
I thought you're going to askme my goals for storytelling and
I I don't know why I said it.
But I said write a book.
(21:28):
And she said well then, that'swhat you've got to do.
And I was like so for threemonths I fought myself on it and
I didn't do it.
And I got increasingly angry atmyself.
And I work out every day verydisciplined.
And I said to him finally, Isaid, okay, you're going to do
it.
You never feel like working out, but you do it and you always
(21:49):
feel better.
You don't question it.
So you're going to do the samething with writing.
Okay, after you work out,you're just going to go sit down
at your desk at 11 o'clock andyou're going to sit there till
one and you're just going towrite.
And so what I ended up doing wasI just wrote anything that came
into my head about this storywith Bruce Springsteen, because
(22:12):
if I started censoring it, I'dbe shut down again, and the
first draft was a thousand pages.
I mean the final one's 350.
But anything that ever happenedto me in my life was in that
manuscript, because I was afraid, yeah, you know, if I went down
that um so.
(22:32):
So part of it's just thediscipline.
Yeah, you just say, okay,you're just going to sit here,
yeah, and see what happens.
If you can just get into itlike, and I would have a muse,
like my husband, I have a goodfriend and my husband and I
would what I actually wouldwrite to them like that's who I
was writing for um, and then Iwould show it.
(22:53):
My husband's not a writer, andthen afterwards I'd show it to
me and go okay, that's good,that's good, yeah, you know.
But so I had these two peoplein my mind.
You know very, very positivepeople, you know, and so I use
them as my muses.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I love that.
As I've always said, like youknow, it's the same as dog
training positive reinforcementand positive associations.
It really works.
It really works.
Especially, you know, no onewants to people shut down when
you're negative and or they lashout.
They shut down or lash out, butwhen it's positive, it's
encouraging and it makes youwant to do more, it makes you
(23:31):
want to do better, it makes youwant to keep going.
So it really does work.
It's your own form of treatshappening Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So, or if you do do this, then you can go and do
this you know, just do this geta donut, or whatever, go
shopping right whatever umexactly I also love that and you
, you, you touched on this.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
But, um, circling back to the book, how your
memoir, how how you realize thatpeople are actually rooting for
you, cause sometimes, um, likeespecially at that moment when
you needed to get surgery andpeople were actually saw you,
they saw you.
You know, it's like a momentwhere you're actually being seen
by somebody, especially givenyour, your history.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It was shocking to me when I would hear I mean even
you know, all through the years,when I'd hear that I would have
to stop and step out of myselfand look at myself through these
people's eyes, see what theywere seeing, cause it was just
um, it was so unknown to me,unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Right, these dogs help us in so many ways we just
don't really.
We have no idea.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
At the end of the book.
When I get Yat, I get thislittle chihuahua.
Well, I want to tell you acouple of things.
So he's 19 and a half now.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I was going to ask you if they were still with you.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, and I have two rescue Bichons who are a little
younger than he is.
They're like 14.
I think of them as young, butanyhow.
So I hired this dog walker alittle over a year ago and I
didn't know.
But she has a three and a halfpound, 14 year old blind
Chihuahua and she's she's in herearly thirties.
(25:19):
And then then last year I hadall these Achilles tendon
problems.
I had a boot on.
You know all this stuff and myhusband works in Philadelphia
during the week and I'm herealone and I couldn't handle.
You know, ryan, you know he was18 and a half then.
He's just so much work.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
So you changed his name to Ryan.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Ryan, yes, I'm sorry.
Yeah, so she would take him toher house Mondays through
Thursday and he'd be with her.
Her little dog's name is Africa.
They're from Russia, okay, andrecently Russia.
And then this is a funny storybut my granddaughter is only
allowed to wear dresses toweddings.
(26:01):
She's seven, six, and she lovesdresses and we had no more
weddings.
So I got this idea last Junethat we would have this wedding
and I want you to know we hadDecember 29th.
We had the most beautifulwedding here with these two
little dogs.
Oh, I love it.
It was.
You know the grandchildren andfriends.
(26:23):
You know they guided the dogs.
We had the whole.
We wore, my husband wore a suit, I wore the dress.
I wore to my son's wedding, andit was, it was.
It was one of the nicest events.
I mean, there weren't manyguests, but it was like it was a
celebration of longevity.
It was a celebration oflongevity, it was a celebration
of connections and everybody wasjust there for the right, you
(26:46):
know, just celebrate these twodogs.
It was joy anyhow ryan's got.
Yeah, it was just beautiful.
I mean, it was really nice.
Meanwhile, ryan is completelyincontinent.
My husband's 71, he comes andyou know he he would be up four
times a night putting ryan outand cleaning the back.
(27:06):
I mean, yeah, well, actually Itook one look at my husband on
saturday and I could just seeand I texted anna.
So ryan is now living with annaand anna's moving to Tampa and
then she's moving to LA and thenshe's moving to LA and she's
(27:26):
such an amazing person.
She said to me she came overhere to pick something up and
she said I feel like I hit thejackpot.
Now I have two.
So, anyhow, I have two sons whogot married and they moved to
California.
And my husband said thisweekend well, it's just the way
it is in our family Our boys getmarried and they move to.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
California.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Anyhow, you know, it's kind of bittersweet because
we love this dog so much, butit's just really hard when you
get old, when you're gettingolder.
No, absolutely, when you haveold dogs and old people.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
You know it's difficult, but I think you
manage that in a reallyresponsible and loving way and I
think the people need to.
You know that's something thatpeople can take away, because
you made sure that that you sawan opportunity to give that dog
care the kind of care in acomfortable way that it needed,
and then he was fine with andalso taking care of yourself,
because we also do need to takecare of ourselves.
(28:21):
You know, and caretaking anolder dog is can be tough.
I mean, it's just likecaretaking anything needs a lot
of tender, loving care and timecan be rough physically and
emotionally and all the things.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
She told me a funny story Ryan, he does this
twirling.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I don't know if other dogs I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
He's unable, he just twirls and he can't any longer
calm himself down and you knowI'll rub him.
Yeah, but she said he'll starttwirling and then Africa, his
wife, will bark at him and he'lllook at her and go oh, that's
so funny.
It's like they're like a littlecouple.
She said he likes to sleep, butshe said she'll get ready to
(29:01):
take Afrika for a walk andAfrika will be jingling and Ryan
looks up, you know.
So there is a dynamic between Ithink there is a synergy having
the two of them.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
When Milo passed after many years I mean 10 years
you had Milo 10.
You also decided to go getanother two other dogs, and this
is when you found what was hisname.
What was Ryan's name before?
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And one other.
And the other guy was is hestill with us Spam?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
No no.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
When those two came into your life.
How did that?
What were the lessons that theytaught you, do you think?
Because they were verydifferent.
They were much easier perhaps,and oh my God.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, one was Sam the little Bichon.
Yeah, he was a year old andsome woman had.
He clearly had been loved hiswhole life and he was just.
Ryan was a little jittery, youknow, he'd been on the side of a
puppy mill, I guess, but hejust needed to really be loved
and he calmed down.
(30:08):
But about 10 years ago I was onthe beach with Ryan and then
these two other Bichons I haveand this man about 70, came over
to me to talk and I said, oh,do you have a dog?
He said well, I used to, but Ijust can't go through the
heartbreak anymore and it ishard.
You forget how horrible it isuntil it happens and people who
(30:33):
don't have animals don'tunderstand it.
On the other hand, by going outand opening up again, you know
you bring in more.
You're giving yourself a chanceto get more love, you know
given.
So I mean.
So I know it's heartbreakingand it's easy to say, oh, I can
do it, but I think eventuallyyou do fall in love with the
(30:56):
next one, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
No, that's something that I'm going to keep with me,
because, yeah, I've never heardsomeone say it quite in that way
.
Because, yeah, you are, you'rekeeping yourself open to love.
You're not shutting down, soyou're not holding on to the
pain, you're just finding aplace for, and that can come
within time for some, but you'renot allowing yourself to shut
down.
You are staying open andkeeping that energy moving and,
(31:20):
if not you, for the creaturethat might need your love right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Right, I mean truth.
Like when we got Milo at therescue and my kids wanted to.
They wanted to wait forMaddie's memory, but I knew I
needed.
I said, look, just think aboutit.
If we get a dog at a rescuetoday, at least one creature in
this world would be better offfor Maddie dying.
(31:47):
I mean, it was just such ahorrible thing.
At least someone, someone willbe better off for it, right?
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Right, absolutely.
This is such a beautiful storyand I know it's your memoir and
it's in, and what is the onething that you hope the reader
takes away from reading yourmemoir?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Even if you're not a pet person or an animal person.
I think the one of theimportant things to understand
with people or dogs is if youunderstand an individual's
unique characteristics, itreally helps you build a bridge
to creating a relationship withthat person or with that dog or
(32:28):
with that living being.
You know.
If you understand what theother living being is coming
from, it helps you reach out andmake that connection.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
I mean, like as I got to understand Milo, you know it
was easier for me to meet himwith what he needed, finding
that common ground and yeah, andnurturing it, yeah, and also
individuality.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I think it's important in people and it's
important in appreciating no twopeople and no two dogs are
alike and you just have to, whenyou get your new dog you know,
appreciate it for what he or sheis.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I really appreciate you sharing your story with us
because it really touches on alot of the gifts that you know
our dogs give us, and I can seehow it would be therapeutic for
you to write that as well.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
And remember these creatures, these living beings.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, memorialize them Absolutely.
I love that Well.
Thank you, anne.
I so appreciate you joining me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Thank you All right.
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