January 23, 2024 • 50 mins
Discover the truth behind "small dog syndrome" with esteemed professional dog trainer Irith Bloom . Irith joins me to debunk the myths surrounding our diminutive canine companions. Excessive barking? Indoor marking? It's time to understand what's really going on with your pint-sized pooch. From dissecting the peculiarities of their bathroom habits to addressing behavior misconceptions, this episode promises to transform your perspective on the unique needs of small dogs . Spoiler alert: It's all about fostering a nurturing relationship that respects your dog's individuality while ensuring they're well-equipped to navigate the world around them.
Irith is a CPDT-KSA, a CBCC-KA, a CDBC, a KPA CTP, a VSPDT, and a CBATI. She is also faculty at both Victoria Stilwell Dog Training Academy and DogBiz’s Dog Walking Academy,and she's certified in TAGteach, a positive reinforcement method for teaching humans. She is on the board of the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT), and Chair Emeritus of the Education Committee of the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT).
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*This podcast is for informational purposes only, even if, and regardless of whether it features the advice of veterinarians or professional dog trainers. It is not, nor is it intended to be a substitute for professional veterinary care or personalized canine behavior advice and should not be used as so. The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or the individual views of those participating in the podcast.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
always lovely to have you on the podcast for our
annual podcast episode.
Today we are going to discusssmall dogs and small dog
syndrome.
Is it a real thing?
And you know some of the thingsthat we encounter with our
small dogs that we all love andthink that are adorable.
So I guess my first questionfor you is is small dog syndrome
(00:22):
a real thing and what does itactually mean?
I think it's a phrase that wekind of like throw around a bit.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, it is one of those phrases.
So first of all, I just want tosay it is always a pleasure
being here, thank you for havingme, always good to talk to you
and about small dog syndrome.
Anytime someone says syndromeand it isn't an actual medical
diagnosis, you should take astep back and say, yeah, this
(00:48):
probably isn't as simple asthey're making it sound.
So like people talk a lot aboutlittermate syndrome, which is
this sort of cluster ofbehaviors, you'll see if you get
two dogs who came from the samelitter, who were born in the
same litter and I'm not sayingthat there aren't issues with
taking two dogs who were born inthe same litter, depending on
(01:09):
how you do things.
But the idea that there is alittermate syndrome is not
actually in any way based inscience.
And I'd say the same thingabout small dog syndrome.
There's no scientific basis fora notion that all small dogs
are going to behave thisparticular way and they have
this thing, this syndrome,called small dog syndrome.
(01:33):
Now, I think when people talkabout small dog syndrome,
they're talking about a coupleof things.
They're talking about beingkind of barky, which I think
many small dogs are a littlemore likely to bark than many
large dogs, but it depends onthe individual and it depends on
the breed, so there's a lot offactors in there that can change
(01:55):
how much a small dog barks.
And then there's this sort ofnotion of them, I think,
protecting their own space a lot, and that I actually find can
be true, because if you are onefifth or one tenth the size of
everything that's going onaround you, you kind of go
through life worried aboutgetting stepped on, stumbled
(02:18):
over, kicked, you know justsomething.
And so I think that some smalldogs do learn to like let people
know hey, I'm right here, theseare my boundaries, don't don't
like step on me or something.
And it actually reminds me of Ihave a friend who is paraplegic
, so she's in a wheelchair andwhen she's in a crowd people
(02:41):
don't see her Right Becauseshe's.
When you sit in a wheelchair,you are lower down than the
average person's height, and sowhen she is going through a
crowd she's actually really loud.
She'll be like hi, comingthrough, I'm here.
And so I think that some oftimes the small dogs are doing
something like that.
They're like nobody sees me,nobody hears me, nobody knows
(03:03):
I'm here.
So I need to talk a littlelouder and make my presence felt
, but not all small dogs do that.
I know small dogs who never dothat at all.
So it's clearly depends on theindividual.
But those are some of thethings I think of for small dog
syndrome.
How about you?
What do you think people mean?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Well, for I know for you, know for me, when I have,
you know, big dogs and smalldogs that I take care of, and I
usually try not to generalize,but I do find that a lot of my
small dogs, yes, are barky,barkier than the bigger dogs.
I find that they often pee inthe house, more than my bigger
(03:43):
dogs.
They often will come into, likeif they're sleeping over at my
house, they'll just come in andpee, you know, whereas my big
dogs would never do that, Iwon't say never, unless there's
usually a medical issuehappening.
Will they potty, you know, inthe house?
And three?
So they're barky, so they'rethree, they tend to do things
like jump.
(04:03):
I mean, even I had a dog staywith me the other day and he
just jumped on the dining roomtable and I was like, well, this
is new, you know, they justtend to be have less impulse
control, I would say, than mylarger dogs.
And I'll stand, as I saidbefore, more vocal is obviously
(04:26):
the key thing that we, that wethink of when we think of our
small dogs.
So I know my friends with smartdogs are definitely very on
guard at, one would say, all thetime.
So that's what I think of.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So you know and it's interesting now that you said it
the house training is one I dorun across a lot.
Yes, okay, and the sort ofthey're jumping onto things
where your big dog might not,that kind of thing.
I think both the house trainingand the seeming to have less
impulse control and going here,there and everywhere, whether
(05:00):
they're supposed to or not, Ithink both of those things are a
factor of how people treat them.
So I think that, like I meet alot of clients who come to me,
it's usually usually like hey,my significant other is about to
move in, or I'm about to have ababy, or I've just put in new
(05:21):
carpet, and and then theysuddenly want to change the
dog's house training and thedog's rule structure and the end
.
And I'm like they don't knowhow old is the dog five years
old and the dog's been jumpingon the couch this whole time.
Yes, and the dog's been peeingon the couch this whole time.
Yes, and I think that whathappens is something that if you
(05:43):
have a great day and your greatday is peeing or pooping in the
wrong place, yeah, you aregoing to notice, it's going to
bother you, it's going to be bigand smelly and you're going to
want to nip that in the budright away.
But I think sometimes withsmall dogs, when they do these
kinds of things, you kind ofwave it off.
You're like, well, you know, Imean, it's just a little tiny
(06:06):
bit of pittle, I can clean thatup, it's just a teeny, teeny
piece of poop.
And so they actually neverbother to really set up sort of
boundaries in a positive way.
You can set up boundaries in apositive way, but they never set
up those boundaries andguidelines for the small dogs,
like they sort of naturally windup doing with a bigger dog.
(06:27):
And then you add to that.
To go back to the house trainingspecifically, small dogs have
smaller bladders, smaller bowels.
They can't hold it for as long.
So there's, there's also alittle extra difficulty house
training them.
So it's generally on averageeasier to house train a large
(06:48):
dog than a small dog, justbecause they can.
A large dog can hold it forlonger, naturally because they
have more space to hold it intheir body.
That's just how their bladderand their bowels work.
So I think that between thosetwo things, between the oh, it's
just a little Oopsy accidentand it takes a little extra
effort to house train a smalldog.
(07:09):
A lot of people don't bother.
So it's not that the dogs can'tbe house trained, it's that
nobody ever bothered.
It's not that the dogs couldn'tlearn to stay off the couch,
it's that nobody ever taughtthem that there was a worthwhile
place to stay next to the couch, on their bed, on the floor.
So I wouldn't say so much thatthey have less impulse control
although that might be theresult but more that nobody's
(07:33):
ever bothered to help themstrengthen their impulse control
.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Okay, so it's more in most cases a like a learned
behavior or a lack of learningthe right behaviors, versus just
like in their, you know, dna.
Essentially right.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good way to just being a
small dog.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah Are there breeds that are more prone to those
kind of things.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, so the first thing I'm going to say is there
are definitely breed tendencies.
I find the dogs that tend notto be house trained are usually
your sort of longish haired lapdog type, small dogs Like.
I'm more likely to see thiswith, say I hate to call out
(08:21):
specific breeds kind of mean,but like with, say, a shih tzu,
then I am with, say, a JackRussell terrier.
It's like I think people treatthem a little differently.
But I also think that these lapdogs may have and I know
someone's going to come back andbe like shih tzu are not just
lap dogs and that's true, butthat's how we treat them in this
(08:44):
country mostly.
And so I think that there mayalso be some differences in how
they're bred.
And you know, people expect aJack Russell to be willing and
able to go out and catch a rat.
People are not raising theiryou know, trying to think of
(09:04):
another Maltese to go out andcatch rats, even though a
Maltese probably could, butthat's not what they're raising
them to do.
And so when they're bred,they're bred to be these sort of
like what's the word?
I want To be sort of sweet andeasygoing and like to be cuddled
(09:24):
, and I think maybe when we'rebreeding for that, we don't
breed as much for the.
I'm going to really payattention to where I'm peeing
and pooping and think a lotabout what the rules are.
So, there may be some geneticfactors that go in there, along
with the size and how the dogsare treated, but I rarely meet a
Jack Russell who isn't housetrained.
(09:44):
I mean lots of Jack Russell'swho jump on couches, that's a
separate issue.
But I don't meet a lot of JackRussell's who are not properly
house trained.
But I meet a lot of Maltese andShih Tzu's who are not properly
house trained.
So does that come from thebreed they're in and some
genetic predisposition maybe?
Or does it come from the breedthey're in and they're being
(10:05):
treated differently?
That's another possibility.
So I'm not sure which it is.
But I will say, if you have oneof those little fluffy lap dog
types, you might have to think alittle more carefully.
Maybe people just forgive themmore because they're so adorable
, but in either case you need tothink more carefully about it,
(10:26):
because small dogs canabsolutely be house trained,
absolutely.
I've helped a million people.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Well, okay, not a million but you know what I mean
.
I've helped quite a many peoplehouse trains.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, I've helped a lot of people house trained
small dogs who were not housetrained until they were several
years old.
So if it's an adult dog andit's not house trained, you can
still fix it.
You can still make thesituation better.
So, yeah, and the jumping onthings same thing.
You just need to set upbarriers, teach them where
(10:59):
they're supposed to be, wherethey're not supposed to be.
But it's a lot harder to getthe genie back in the bottle
when the dogs already learn tojump all over furniture or jump
on people or whatever else it is.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Right, you mentioned that you think that possibly
small dogs can't hold theirurine as long as larger dogs,
and what does that mean?
Timing wise, is there a way totell how long your dog, your
small dog, can hold their urine,or is that just something out
of the process of elimination,for the lack of better term?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Like there.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
see what I did there.
I really didn't mean to do thatthat.
You learn how long they canhold it Because there's a
general rule of thumb whenyou're potty training that for
every month well, at least apuppy like your dog can hold
what is it like for every monthof life.
They can hold it for a certainamount of time, or something
(12:00):
like that, until a certain age,right, yeah, how does that shift
for, or does it for, our smalldogs, or maybe that we don't
know?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So that's a great question.
The first thing I'm going tosay is I'm always suspicious of
those kinds of guidelinesbecause there's so much
individual variation.
The rule I generally hear isthey can hold it for an hour for
every month of age.
But I'm like, yeah, but onemonth old dogs can't hold it for
an hour and many two month olddogs can't hold it for two hours
.
So I tend to be reallyconservative.
(12:34):
So if I have a dog who isn't, sowhether it's an adult or a
puppy, for that matter if I havean adult excuse me, a dog that
isn't house trained and I wantto house train that dog, I start
by assuming they can't hold itat all.
And I want to point somethingout, which is that there's a
difference between holding it,like knowing how to hold it, and
(12:58):
being able to hold it.
So some dogs could probablyhold it longer, but they don't
think of it.
So, like dogs who have alwayshad indoor, outdoor access to
the yard, for instance, often ifthey get stuck indoors they
have no idea how to hold it.
It's like they haven't workedthat challenge in their mind and
(13:21):
in their body.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So that's, one thing that's good to learn.
I think that's the case for themajority of the little dogs
that I work with, because theyhave, you know, someone's
usually home housekeeper orwhatnot, and the doors like open
to the backyard.
So that's just kind of.
They always know to go outside,right and so, and then when
they're with me they're justlike.
I think that's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So there is this process of learning to hold it
like learning.
You can tolerate feeling likethis for 15 minutes, for 30
minutes, for an hour before youget to go outside.
So that's part of the process.
But having said that, while Ithink so, I've known large dogs
who can hold it for 12 hours.
No dog should be asked to dothat ever.
(14:05):
That's way too long.
But I've known large dogs whocan.
I doubt a small dog would stayphysically healthy if they were
consistently having to hold itfor 12 hours at a time.
I don't think it's great forthe large dogs' health either.
Small dogs, I usually assumeeven as adults, even when
they're fully house trained,they need a potty outing once
about every four hours.
(14:25):
I would like to see large dogsget a potty outing every four
hours, but if you didn't getthem out in time, they'll
probably be okay.
For small dogs, especially thereally teeny ones, like four
hours is like two days ofholding it for them.
So some of it depends on thedog's size and you can sort of
(14:46):
make some guesses, but then onceyou look at the individual dog,
the best way to figure this outreally is to just take notes.
She drank at three o'clock andshe peed at 3.15.
Or she drank at three o'clockand she didn't pee until five.
Or she drank at three o'clockand she didn't ask to go out at
(15:07):
all, but then she had anaccident at six.
All of those things.
If you can just literally for aweek, you only need to follow
your dog for a week to startfiguring this out.
Basically, you just follow thedog, follow, not necessarily
literally follow, but payattention to the dog's habits
for a week and then you'll know.
Oh, you know what.
(15:28):
I'd better take them out every30 minutes and then, once you
get to the point where I'm justsaying, for example, which is
actually what I recommend forpuppies is every 30 minutes, but
that's a side note.
Small dogs, that's also whereI'd start.
Adult, larger dogs, I'd startwith maybe 45 minutes to an hour
, depending on the size.
So I go out every 30 minutes.
(15:49):
The dog either potties ordoesn't, and then I supervise
the dog until the next time Itake them out.
If I notice them start to potty, I make sure I get them outside
.
Then I start to notice theynever potty at 2 pm or 2.30 or 3
, but they always potty at 3.30.
Okay, so then how about we skipthe outing?
So they didn't potty at 2.30.
(16:10):
Sorry, I said 230 or three, butthey potty at three.
So I take them out at two andthen I skip the 230 and then I
take them out at three and seewhat happens.
I don't push all the way, Ipush partway and, oh look, they
didn't pee at three and theypeed at 330 again.
Okay, so now I'm going to say Itake them out at two and I'm
going to wait until 330.
And sure enough, they hold itfrom two to 330 and they pee at
(16:32):
330.
Now I'm starting to get someanswers.
So, but the key is in thebeginning to say to the dog I'm
going to take you out on aregular basis, but in between
I'm also going to watch and youcan either put them, if they're
crate trained, you can put themin a crate so that they don't
potty when you're not watchingthem, or you just keep an eye on
(16:55):
them and look for thosecircling and sniffing behaviors.
But the bottom line is, look upa good sort of house training
guide and pretend the dog knowsnothing, and that's where you
start.
But having said that, to getback to the main question, I do
think that with small dogs, Iwill often ask people to take
(17:17):
them out a little more often.
I think it's great if smalldogs can get out every two to
three hours If you have a tinydog like I.
Have a client who has threedogs who are all under four
pounds there are potty pads outall the time and all the dogs
are potty pad trained so thatway if she has to leave and go
(17:40):
shopping, she doesn't have toworry that if she gets stuck in
traffic on the way home, thedogs don't have an option.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Right, that's great.
What about marking?
Do you think little dogs domore marking than big dogs?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I think this is another one of those.
We let them get away with itand we don't try to resolve the
issue.
Almost all the dogs I know whomark indoors and it is like
where it's marking and not justI have to pee?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I have a.
I think I have a few.
They are almost always smalldogs.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, but I think it's because people didn't
bother to house train themproperly and this was the thing
that they let slip.
So marking is a house trainingproblem.
It is not some kind ofdominance thing.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's what I wanted to clarify, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, so marking is a house training issue.
Now I will say there arecertain things that can trigger
more marking, like if you have astrange animal come into your
house and by strange I don'tnecessarily mean that it's
really weird, I just mean likesomeone else brings their dog,
or you have a friend with a cat,or you have a friend with a
(19:00):
ferret or whatever.
Sometimes dogs like they smellthat and then they it's almost
like they're compelled to pee onthe smell.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So I'll see this with dogs, where they're perfectly
house trained.
They visited like 15 differentpeople's houses, everything's
great.
Then they walk into the housewhere someone has a cat and they
pee on the cat litter or theypee on the cat bed and it's like
, oh, this smell is so strange,I don't know what to do.
I guess I'll pee on it.
And again, it's just a housetraining mistake.
To have the inclination to peeon something is different from
(19:39):
then choosing to actually do it,which is the same as oh, I kind
of need to pee.
If you think about basic housetraining, right, I kind of need
to pee.
I guess I'll just pee, asopposed to I kind of need to pee
, but I'll wait till the humantakes me out so we can teach
them to control that impulse andnot mark.
Having said that, I know onedog who belonged to an expert
(20:03):
expert trainer who I knew, whoused to breed sorry, this is
just funny.
So I have to say this out loudshe bred Dobermans and Yorkies.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It is funny.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Quite the combination .
So we always had like half adozen Yorkies in her home,
because they all they lived inher home.
She separated them when thefemales were in heat.
She only bred when she was avery responsible breeder, kept
the Dobermans apart from theYorkies when the Yorkies were in
heat, and vice versa, and allof that.
But she had this one male ofher nine Yorkies that she had at
(20:37):
the time who, no matter whatshe did, she could not stop him
from marking, and so for him shegot a belly band which is like
a diaper right.
It's like a male diaper.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah.
Some senior dogs that I knowhave worn those, yeah,
interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And the great thing about that is then you don't
have the cleanup, you don't havethe smell and none of the other
dogs in the house are like, ohwell, somebody potted over here,
so this must be a bathroom.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right, I think that's what tends to happen.
They're like oh, we're doingthis over here.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
All right, let's do it over here Exactly.
They're like yay, somebodyopened the new bathroom, yeah,
so, yeah, so the marking.
I would say go back and saywhen is it happening, where is
it happening, block access tothat area, take the dog out at
those times, and then the thingthat I will encourage everyone
(21:30):
to do is let your dog mark onwalks.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That was going to be my next question.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
People have it in their heads.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, people have it in their heads.
If I let my dog mark on walks,he's going to mark indoors, and
I actually find it's the exactopposite.
If you don't let them have alegal and appropriate outlet for
the marking Xire or whateverthe right word is that they're
gonna let that out in some otherway.
So give them an opportunity tobark where they're supposed to
(22:00):
praise and treat them when theymark on walks.
Like Charlotte, my dog,franklin.
Franklin thought that walks werebasically all about your leg
forty times and sniffing variousthings didn't matter.
If you ran out of P, you stilllifted your leg totally, and
they really like their.
They like to mark.
(22:20):
Great, here's the context whereyou mark.
It's like football, you know,sorry, it's, it's, it's the
playoffs.
Yeah, you're not supposed to goaround tackling people.
Yeah, and if you're a footballplayer, you shouldn't do that
off the field.
But on the field you're allowedto tackle people.
(22:42):
So do we think that by teachingfootball players to tackle other
people, we're gonna make themtackle people in other
situations?
Right?
Not usually, I mean.
I'm not saying that neverhappen, but for the vast
majority of them they understand.
This is where I get to let outthis particular kind of
aggression or this particularkind of behavior.
So same thing with the dogs whomark.
(23:03):
They want to mark.
Let them do the markingsomewhere that is appropriate,
and you can even praise and feedthem a treat for doing that, so
that it's more valuable to markoutside and then block access
to wherever they're marking ortake them out at times when they
would normally mark indoors.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I wanted to ask.
I wanted to bring up justreally briefly, like so marking.
It's not really related, butit's like.
Well, it's really talking aboutmarking but For some people
still don't, may not understandwhy a dog marks.
Can we just clarify whatmarking is like?
In my mind, it is leaving amessage for all the dogs in the
neighborhood, or, as my momwould call it, leaving a P mail
(23:44):
right, so, yes, the word female.
What is that?
You know?
Is that Fact, or do we not know100% why dogs mark?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We don't know, we really don't know.
So people who study caninebehavior they're called the
ethologists have theories aboutwhy dogs leave sent, but
honestly, there's no specieswhere we've been able to
completely tease out why they'redoing it.
The strong theories that Ithink you know, or the
(24:18):
hypotheses I should be moreprecise, the strong hypotheses
that are out there are thatAnimals that mark whether that's
a lion scraping their clawsdown a tree, because that leaves
sense, because they've got sentin the pads of their hands, so
to speak.
Or you know, a dog peeing on apole, or a bear Rubbing against
(24:43):
something and leaving a littlebit of sent in skin.
That way bears do all kinds ofreally cool rubbing behavior is
just a side note, but that'sbeside the point.
Yeah, all of those behaviorswere not 100% sure why they're
there.
What we do know is that,functionally, what they do is
(25:05):
they let another animal knowthat that animal has been there.
So other animals are picking upthe messages, right, but I'm
not sure if the animal who leftthe message realize that someone
else would pick up the messageor if they just sort of
intuitively they're like oh,pole, I should leave my set here
right now I have a theory aboutmarking myself that I don't
(25:28):
mark.
Not right dogs are not markingme sorry, I myself.
Have a theory about marking,which is which relates to why
dogs tend to mark when they'reanxious or right after an
anxious situation.
So if you watch two dogsmeeting on leash which is super
unnatural for dogs, but that's aside note A lot of times what
(25:50):
you'll see is you'll see thedogs.
They do like their littlesniffing routine.
Everybody does the little like.
They banana around each other,they sniff each other's butts
and then, as soon as they moveon, both dogs go and pee on
something.
So I think that there could betwo things going on there.
I think one is that they justget a little excited in their
physiologically a little bitmore up, and so they feel the
(26:11):
need to be more.
But the other thing could bethat they've learned that peeing
makes them feel better, whichit does right.
It's reinforcing to pee.
We feel better after we peebecause we were feeling Full and
now we're comfortable, right.
So I think sometimes they'relike I'm really anxious, I need
to do something to relieve thisanxiety, and somewhere in their
(26:31):
brain they know that being makesthem feel better, so they pee.
I think the same thing mighthave to do with the smells of
other things in like like oh, Ismelled a cat.
I'm gonna pee on that like Idon't quite know what to do with
that.
It's interesting, I'll pee onit Right now.
One of the areas of researchthat I'd love to see develop is
(26:55):
what dogs actually notice aboutthe urine that they're smelling
like.
Do they know their pee fromsomebody else's pee?
And they're starting to doresearch on these things?
Interesting, so yeah, so morewill be known, hopefully within
a few years to be continued.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
yeah, yes well, let's move on to barking, because I
know my little guys, they, they,you know, some of them just go
bananas, like out on walks oreven in the house.
You know, it just seems likethey're all the height and
(27:31):
senses like the stranger danger,and Some just bark to bark, as
you said, to be seen.
But it seems like some bring itlike in a way that is, it seems
like either they're some, some,some owner, some pet parents
would say that their dogs areprotecting them, that they're,
(27:52):
you know, on the defense toprotect their owner.
I would say they just seemsuper scared and like freaked
out by everything and over, likewhelmed.
Do you find that to be true orwhat's your take on barking?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
So Barking is complicated and it's gonna
really depend on the dog, and Iwill say right now that there
are some dogs that only barkwhen they're human.
Is there?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I do know that there's two.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
There's two, two variations of that.
One is the.
I bark when someone approachesme and I'm standing next to my
human, which almost feels likethey're guarding the human a
little right, and that may bewhat's happening Not sure,
because I can't ask the dogRight.
Then there's the.
I only bark when my human isaround because I know that when
(28:41):
I bark my human Looks at me ortalks to me or yells at me yeah
or comes over to me, all ofwhich is attention, and I've
learned to bark for attention.
So I only bark when the human isthere.
So that kind of barking, likesometimes I do think that the
dog is, it's, if it's a guardingbehavior, which is hard to
tease out because, like I said,I can't actually say to the dog
(29:03):
Lie down on the couch, tell meabout your mother and tell me if
you're barking because you'reguarding your human.
Yeah, I can't do any of that.
So I mean I can get them to liedown on the couch, maybe.
Right, that's about it.
Yeah, so For those dogs whobark when someone approaches
their human, or maybe they growland sort of posture a little
(29:24):
bit around their human, theymight actually be saying, hey,
keep away from my human.
That is possible.
I don't know because I can'task them.
For the ones who only bark whenthe human is around and if you
look carefully you see the thedog is getting Attention for
barking then the barking isprobably about attention.
But a lot of these small dogsespecially, they bark whether
(29:47):
someone is home or not, and soif no one's if, so if they
barked, let's say they heardsomething outside the door or
the window or you live in anapartment building and there's a
trash Shoot down the hall Ihave a specific client this is
true for which is where thisexample comes from and every
time someone opens and closesthe trash shoot, the dog barks.
(30:07):
Right, that's not about thehuman being there, that is.
I heard something and that goesdown to that sort of like what
you just said, like they'rescared, they're anxious about
the situation, like they'refreaked out, like, oh my god,
trash shoot, trash shoot, trashshoot.
You know, I mean it's, it's not.
I don't think it's like arational, rational thing.
(30:28):
In those cases there's a lot ofoh no, oh no to the kind of
barking that you see, especiallywith small dogs.
It can really be panicked.
It's definitely panic if theybark when you're away.
I wouldn't say definitely.
It's almost certainly panic ifthey bark when you're away and
they just bark the whole time.
You're away, yeah, and thatwould be separation anxiety,
which is a panic disorder.
(30:49):
But If you're home and most ofthe time they're not barking at
you, and then the trash shoot,closes and they bark, they're
barking about the trash shoot,and a lot of small dogs large
dogs too, but a lot of smalldogs are very sensitive to like
sudden noises, yeah, things theysee walking by, sounds that
(31:10):
they hear Thunder kind of sounds, firework kind of sounds and
they'll bark at those things.
And I do think that you're right, charlotte, them, those cases,
they're like they're a littlefreaked out, they're not totally
comfortable.
At best they're saying get away, get away, get away, don't come
any closer, which is not acomfortable feeling to come from
right.
They're not feeling comfortableif they're saying that and at
(31:32):
worst they're like oh my gosh,this horrible thing just
happened, which is not acomfortable emotional place to
be.
So I Do see a lot of that andthe one thing that I want to add
, before I completely forgetthis, is that there are factors
that will make a dog more likelyto overreact to things, like if
they're in pain Right, and alot of small dogs have issues
(31:56):
with their knees or other joints.
So it like their, their kneeswill, their kneecaps, the way
their knee works.
They just they're not stableenough.
And so you, you see, you know,when you see small dogs pick up
their back leg every five stepsas they're walking, that's
because their patella is notseated right.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Okay, is that like a floating patella?
And so what, that is kind ofyeah okay.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, basically, and so Basically, they're a little
uncomfortable all the time.
So if you think about how youfeel, if you have a headache,
every little thing is a littlemore annoying.
Then, when you don't have aheadache, so if they're having a
little bit of pain all the time, that's gonna make them more
likely to bark.
So the first question youshould ask yourself this goes to
(32:43):
house training too is is thedog medically okay?
Yeah, are they sick?
Do they need, you know, somekind of orthopedic treatment, or
do they have a headache?
We don't know yet whether ornot dogs can have headaches, but
it's another issue that's beingexplored in research right now.
So so I do find sometimes thebarking seems to get better if
(33:07):
we treat the dogs medical needsand, and so sometimes it's every
noise just sets me off.
Sometimes it's every noise setsme off because I'm already
feeling a little anxious, sickor in pain to begin with.
So anyway, those are mythoughts.
That was a really rambly set ofthoughts on.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, panic is definitely there, the worry and
panic absolutely I, and what I'mabout to say is not to shame
pet parents in any way, shape orform.
But I do know that sometimes wetend to think that little dogs,
the things little dogs are cute, cuter than what we would think
.
Would you know if a larger dogwas doing it?
So your little dog is scared,it's cute because he's turning
(33:49):
to you and all sorts of stuffand he's like freaking out.
Or your little dog is Yellingat somebody or another dog.
You think it's cute?
Oh, you're just being silly,you know, like you know, we just
think it's there.
We're there being silly, aren'tthey being cute where we
wouldn't if a bigger dog wasexhibiting those behaviors,
because of the potential.
(34:11):
You know, if you're a little dog, if your large dog is lunging,
it's scary to other people.
Walking, it's also about hearthurts your shoulder.
There's all sorts of reasonswhy we address those behaviors.
Are there things that we'reencouraging in our little dogs?
Do you think To create maybe,some of these behaviors?
I know that's a slippery slope,but I'll put put it a different
(34:32):
way how can we show up for ourlittle dogs to not encourage
like Some of the behaviors thatwe see, like the barking, and
and still show up for them andprotect them with their you know
if they're showing anxiety andstuff like that, but Does that
make sense?
Yes it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So first of all I want to say I mentioned I have a
client who has four dogs threedogs, three dogs, sorry who are
all under four pounds.
When I met her first of thoseunder three pound dogs, one of
the very first things she saidto me is I want my dog to be
just as well behaved as a largedog would be.
And this was a dog who at thetime weighed a pound and eight
(35:15):
ounces, so she was like youcould more or less literally
hold her in the palm of yourhand.
She was so small and I was likethis is the attitude everybody
with a tiny or small or whateversize dog should have is, if
it's not cute and a great day.
And it's not cute, my tiny dog,Right.
So I do think we need to stopand think like would this be
(35:37):
cute if the dog was 90 pounds?
Would this be cute?
And even just stopping to thinkabout that I think can be
really helpful.
Yeah, I think that a lot oftimes small dogs bark or
especially like aggressive andfearful behavior.
You'll see it, because we'renot there being helpful to our
(36:01):
dog.
You know, like we let peopleswoop in and just grab them or
we let people rush towards them,even if they're not going to
grab them.
All these things can be kind ofscary and I think it can be
really nice to just be like hey,really important, let my dog
come to you and decide how theywant to interact instead of you
(36:26):
invading their space.
They're small, you're big, it'sscary for them and I think it
can really help to do thosethings.
Then the other thing is, youknow, really, as you said, like
how can I be there for them?
My dog is barking.
Okay, maybe the first time Ismiled, like I'm thinking about
the noises that French Bulldogsmake, for instance, can be
(36:47):
really entertaining.
Yeah, so maybe the first time Ican't help myself, and I kind
of giggled Because it makes yougiggle, yeah, totally.
Because it makes you giggle.
But then I need to stop andthink is this a noise I want to
hear a lot more of?
Right, and if it isn't, can Istop myself from giggling next
time?
Right, and I think it can makea really big difference to just
(37:10):
stop and think.
When I'm with a dog, I'm alwaysthinking about this.
Obviously I'm a professional,so my brain is like trained, oh,
it's on in that way, but I'malways thinking about this what
is my behavior right nowencouraging in the dog, and do I
want to encourage that thing?
So you have to stop and askyourself that question.
(37:32):
All the time the dog barkedbecause somebody walked by.
Oh, isn't that funny.
But do I really want them tobark?
Every single time someonewalked by?
My dog barked at a big dog andthe other the big dog ran away,
which happens more often thannot Totally.
And isn't that funny.
My dog scared the GermanShepherd Totally and then one
(37:53):
day they're going to come acrossthe German Shepherd, who's
going to decide to make themquiet and is going to go after
them.
Yeah, so I don't want toencourage them to bark at large
dogs.
I don't want to be like, ha ha,ha, that's so cute they jump on
me.
Do I want them to jump oneveryone else?
Can I teach them?
Here's my signal that says toyou yes, please come jump on me.
(38:17):
But then nobody else gives thatsignal.
So I really think it'simportant.
When you have a small dog, it'sso easy to just dismiss stuff as
oh, it's not important.
You know the dog's pulling onleash, but who cares?
Still, you should teach thatdog how to walk on leash
properly, because even a smalldog pulling hard enough can hurt
(38:38):
your shoulder.
And don't even get me startedon the small dogs who are on 30
foot extendable leashes and aretripping people because the
leash is tripping them.
So stop and think about all ofthose things and say like, how
would this look in the long term?
What if this were a large dog?
Would I be allowing this?
(38:58):
And I'm not saying you can'tallow your small dog to sit in
your lap because maybe you don'twant your 120-pound great Dane
sitting in your lap.
Like you can say, this is finefor this dog and most people
will be fine with my dog beingin their lap, right, but just
stop and think about it, becausesmall dogs don't need to have
(39:19):
small dog syndrome.
They can be comfortable andconfident and well adjusted and
completely house trained andreasonably quiet, bearing in
mind that some breeds are bredto bark more like terriers, okay
, and you're going to get morebarking from them.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What about, like?
We often just pick our dog orsmall dog up when there's when
they're doing like?
What's the line between pickingyour small dog up to show them
that you're protecting them andthat you've got their back, and
creating like?
(39:59):
Not creating like, independenceand confidence, right?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So first rule is there shouldbe a verbal cue before you pick
your dog up, except inemergencies.
I'm going to get intoemergencies in just a second.
But in a normal situation I'mgoing to say I don't know why,
up up is always my pick up cue.
I don't know why, but I'll liketap my legs and say up up.
(40:30):
And then I watch what the dogdoes and once the dog has
learned that up up means I'mgoing to pick them up, what
they'll start doing is they'llsay yes or no.
And yes is I come over and Ijump on you and you can pick me
up.
For most small dogs, no is theykeep their distance.
So the first thing is can youimagine if some 40 foot tall
(40:51):
giant just grabbed you with nowarning and then carried you to
another place and suddenlyyou're somewhere else?
Yeah, and maybe it's reallyscary to jump off of wherever
they just put you Like.
I've seen small dogs get likestuck on the couch.
You know, stop and think.
Give them a chance to say notright now, or can you give me a
(41:11):
second, or at least you'regiving them a warning so they
know when your hands come and ifyou find that they move away
from you every time, then theyprobably don't like to be picked
up.
So not all small dogs like tobe picked up.
A lot of dogs will come in, askto be picked up when they want
to be picked up, right.
So I like to have a signal,that like up up signal, so that
they can say yes or no to me.
(41:33):
And it's pretty obvious usuallyif they're like yes, yes, pick
me up.
So that's one thing.
Now, having said that, that'sobviously we're interacting,
we're having fun.
I picked you up, maybe I'mpetting you for a little bit and
then I put you down pretty soonafter.
Or maybe I picked you up to getyou on the couch and then you
can decide if you want tosnuggle with me on the couch or
(41:54):
sit at the opposite end of thecouch or whatever it is you want
to do.
That's one scenario.
But then there's the.
We're on a walk and a 90 poundoff leash dog is racing towards
us and I am worried about thewell-being not just well-being,
welfare, like actual life anddeath of my small dog and you
(42:16):
pick the dog up.
So I'm all for it.
Pick your dog up in thosesituations, because the first
thing you have to do is protectphysically protect your small
dog.
Be aware that sometimes mostdogs who are off leashing come
running at you have no badintentions.
They're just too friendly andoff of the leash.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, but most of the time.
But some of them will actuallywant to get your small dog.
So just be aware that when youpick your small dog up, you may
wind up being the target thatgets bitten in that situation.
Right, I'm not saying don't doit, I'm just saying be aware.
And I can say right now that,like for me, for my husband, we
would much rather we get bittenthan our dog.
(42:58):
Like, that's just the way ourminds work.
But you need to know thatthat's a possibility.
The one thing is that when, asyou said, like, are you taking
away the dog's confidence.
If you pick the dog up everytime another dog comes along,
then they might be left with theimpression that they can't be
on the ground when there areother dogs around and that
(43:20):
something bad is going to happen, right?
So I usually leave small dogson their own for pause on the
ground when a dog is approaching, as long as that dog's behavior
is reasonably calm and the doglooks friendly, and I also call
out hey, is your dog friendly?
Right?
There is only one correctanswer to that question yes.
(43:42):
The correct answer isimmediately yes.
You know if?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
they stop yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
If they stop in their thinking, you say hey, is your
dog friendly?
And they go um yes, that's nota yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is your dog male or female?
That's not a yes Cause I'veheard that.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Like oh, my dog likes male dogs.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Is your dog male or female?
Yeah, no, I don't want to riskthat.
He that I have the one male doghe doesn't like, right, right,
you know.
So I ask.
And if it's a dog who seems tobe approaching in a reasonable
pace they're not racing in,they're not super excited I'm
absolutely happy to let thosedogs meet on their own, pause on
(44:23):
the ground instead of like upin my arms.
So I do think that we can makethe mistake of being so worried
about our small dog that we pickthem up all the time and never
let them encounter other dogs,and then they start doing this
thing where they're barking frominside our arms and right, it's
no fun.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So my next question, really quickly, would be what if
we're not worried about oursmall dogs but our small dogs
are yelling and going bonkers ateverybody else walking by and
when we pick them up they stopor they pick them up?
And they're still barking, butat least we can move a little
quicker and get away from thesituation or whatever Like what
(45:01):
is the what's, what about that?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Okay.
So that's a really greatquestion because I do run into
that with clients.
So if I pick them up andthey're continuing to bark and
I'm just moving away to getdistance, I call that managing
the situation.
I'm not really teaching the dogvery much in that moment.
They're not going to learnanything from it.
I need to come up with astrategy to help them feel
better about other dogs Right,right, and you can.
You know you can look intopositive reinforcement methods
(45:28):
for helping dogs feel betterabout other dogs, like open bar.
Closed bar, for instance, is areally simple one that you can
use.
If you look up open bar, closedbar, it'll that that will
populate.
It's a really simple, easy wayto start making your dog feel
better about other dogs.
So I'm picking the dog up inthe moment I'm going.
Oh, he's barking at other dogs.
(45:48):
I really need to come up with asolution for this Right.
Start applying the solution.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
But when they get to the point where they're barking,
they're not going to learnanything new.
Open bar, closed bar, will nolonger work.
You just pick them up and walkaway.
That's fine.
Okay For the dogs that theybark, and then you pick them up
and then they're quiet.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I have a theory about those dogs.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Okay.
So there's two possibilities.
One is you're holding them,they're more comfortable, and so
they stop barking because nowthey're more comfortable, they
don't feel threatened.
Yeah, yep, they feel safer.
The other possibility is thatthey actually feel really safe
when you hold them.
In general, they see a dogracing towards them and they
(46:32):
have learned that if they barkwhen there's a dog coming
towards them, you pick them up.
So they're basically saying hey, can you please pick me up
because I don't feel safe.
Got it so?
So for some dogs, I think it'sjust one of those things where,
like, you hold them and eitherthey feel a little bit more
behaviorally constrained orinhibited which could happen,
but the barking stops, it's allgood, we don't want them to
(46:54):
practice the barking or they areliterally saying hey, hey, pick
me up, pick me up, pick me up.
And that's their way of sayinghey, pick me up.
But either way, I'm just goingto say because I've done this
I've had so many clients wherewe do this with when, if you
have that dog, that you pickthem up and they stop barking at
the other dog, pick them up,walk them up, walk them away.
(47:16):
Yeah, totally fine to do that.
Totally, everybody safe.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Totally fine, but then again start training for it
, right?
They're not really learninganything, I'm going to Yep.
They're not learning a newskill.
They need a new skill.
Teach them a new skill.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Got it Well.
Thank you, eiread.
I think we covered a lot.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
I think I think we covered a lot, yeah.
So all I will say is like myperfect world would be the world
where all the small dogs are aswell behaved as the large dogs
and the small dogs feel morecomfortable because I think a
lot of small dogs they just getpoked and prodded and picked up
and moved around and treated ina way you would never treat a
(47:59):
rottweiler the way you treat.
You know maltese Right, and Ithink that we need to think
about making them feel safe andcomfortable in their world, and
some of that means thatsometimes I'm not just going to
decide now is petting time andgrab my dog.
So it would be really nice ifwe could all help our small dogs
(48:20):
feel more comfortable but alsohave expectations that they be
house trained and know how towalk on leash just like a big
dog would.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Right.
Well, thank you, eiread.
This is very informative, perusual, and I always appreciate
you coming on Well it's such apleasure.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Thank you, I love it.
always lovely to have you on the podcast for our
annual podcast episode.
Today we are going to discusssmall dogs and small dog
syndrome.
Is it a real thing?
And you know some of the thingsthat we encounter with our
small dogs that we all love andthink that are adorable.
So I guess my first questionfor you is is small dog syndrome
(00:22):
a real thing and what does itactually mean?
I think it's a phrase that wekind of like throw around a bit.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, it is one of those phrases.
So first of all, I just want tosay it is always a pleasure
being here, thank you for havingme, always good to talk to you
and about small dog syndrome.
Anytime someone says syndromeand it isn't an actual medical
diagnosis, you should take astep back and say, yeah, this
(00:48):
probably isn't as simple asthey're making it sound.
So like people talk a lot aboutlittermate syndrome, which is
this sort of cluster ofbehaviors, you'll see if you get
two dogs who came from the samelitter, who were born in the
same litter and I'm not sayingthat there aren't issues with
taking two dogs who were born inthe same litter, depending on
(01:09):
how you do things.
But the idea that there is alittermate syndrome is not
actually in any way based inscience.
And I'd say the same thingabout small dog syndrome.
There's no scientific basis fora notion that all small dogs
are going to behave thisparticular way and they have
this thing, this syndrome,called small dog syndrome.
(01:33):
Now, I think when people talkabout small dog syndrome,
they're talking about a coupleof things.
They're talking about beingkind of barky, which I think
many small dogs are a littlemore likely to bark than many
large dogs, but it depends onthe individual and it depends on
the breed, so there's a lot offactors in there that can change
(01:55):
how much a small dog barks.
And then there's this sort ofnotion of them, I think,
protecting their own space a lot, and that I actually find can
be true, because if you are onefifth or one tenth the size of
everything that's going onaround you, you kind of go
through life worried aboutgetting stepped on, stumbled
(02:18):
over, kicked, you know justsomething.
And so I think that some smalldogs do learn to like let people
know hey, I'm right here, theseare my boundaries, don't don't
like step on me or something.
And it actually reminds me of Ihave a friend who is paraplegic
, so she's in a wheelchair andwhen she's in a crowd people
(02:41):
don't see her Right Becauseshe's.
When you sit in a wheelchair,you are lower down than the
average person's height, and sowhen she is going through a
crowd she's actually really loud.
She'll be like hi, comingthrough, I'm here.
And so I think that some oftimes the small dogs are doing
something like that.
They're like nobody sees me,nobody hears me, nobody knows
(03:03):
I'm here.
So I need to talk a littlelouder and make my presence felt
, but not all small dogs do that.
I know small dogs who never dothat at all.
So it's clearly depends on theindividual.
But those are some of thethings I think of for small dog
syndrome.
How about you?
What do you think people mean?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Well, for I know for you, know for me, when I have,
you know, big dogs and smalldogs that I take care of, and I
usually try not to generalize,but I do find that a lot of my
small dogs, yes, are barky,barkier than the bigger dogs.
I find that they often pee inthe house, more than my bigger
(03:43):
dogs.
They often will come into, likeif they're sleeping over at my
house, they'll just come in andpee, you know, whereas my big
dogs would never do that, Iwon't say never, unless there's
usually a medical issuehappening.
Will they potty, you know, inthe house?
And three?
So they're barky, so they'rethree, they tend to do things
like jump.
(04:03):
I mean, even I had a dog staywith me the other day and he
just jumped on the dining roomtable and I was like, well, this
is new, you know, they justtend to be have less impulse
control, I would say, than mylarger dogs.
And I'll stand, as I saidbefore, more vocal is obviously
(04:26):
the key thing that we, that wethink of when we think of our
small dogs.
So I know my friends with smartdogs are definitely very on
guard at, one would say, all thetime.
So that's what I think of.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So you know and it's interesting now that you said it
the house training is one I dorun across a lot.
Yes, okay, and the sort ofthey're jumping onto things
where your big dog might not,that kind of thing.
I think both the house trainingand the seeming to have less
impulse control and going here,there and everywhere, whether
(05:00):
they're supposed to or not, Ithink both of those things are a
factor of how people treat them.
So I think that, like I meet alot of clients who come to me,
it's usually usually like hey,my significant other is about to
move in, or I'm about to have ababy, or I've just put in new
(05:21):
carpet, and and then theysuddenly want to change the
dog's house training and thedog's rule structure and the end
.
And I'm like they don't knowhow old is the dog five years
old and the dog's been jumpingon the couch this whole time.
Yes, and the dog's been peeingon the couch this whole time.
Yes, and I think that whathappens is something that if you
(05:43):
have a great day and your greatday is peeing or pooping in the
wrong place, yeah, you aregoing to notice, it's going to
bother you, it's going to be bigand smelly and you're going to
want to nip that in the budright away.
But I think sometimes withsmall dogs, when they do these
kinds of things, you kind ofwave it off.
You're like, well, you know, Imean, it's just a little tiny
(06:06):
bit of pittle, I can clean thatup, it's just a teeny, teeny
piece of poop.
And so they actually neverbother to really set up sort of
boundaries in a positive way.
You can set up boundaries in apositive way, but they never set
up those boundaries andguidelines for the small dogs,
like they sort of naturally windup doing with a bigger dog.
(06:27):
And then you add to that.
To go back to the house trainingspecifically, small dogs have
smaller bladders, smaller bowels.
They can't hold it for as long.
So there's, there's also alittle extra difficulty house
training them.
So it's generally on averageeasier to house train a large
(06:48):
dog than a small dog, justbecause they can.
A large dog can hold it forlonger, naturally because they
have more space to hold it intheir body.
That's just how their bladderand their bowels work.
So I think that between thosetwo things, between the oh, it's
just a little Oopsy accidentand it takes a little extra
effort to house train a smalldog.
(07:09):
A lot of people don't bother.
So it's not that the dogs can'tbe house trained, it's that
nobody ever bothered.
It's not that the dogs couldn'tlearn to stay off the couch,
it's that nobody ever taughtthem that there was a worthwhile
place to stay next to the couch, on their bed, on the floor.
So I wouldn't say so much thatthey have less impulse control
although that might be theresult but more that nobody's
(07:33):
ever bothered to help themstrengthen their impulse control
.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Okay, so it's more in most cases a like a learned
behavior or a lack of learningthe right behaviors, versus just
like in their, you know, dna.
Essentially right.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good way to just being a
small dog.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yeah Are there breeds that are more prone to those
kind of things.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, so the first thing I'm going to say is there
are definitely breed tendencies.
I find the dogs that tend notto be house trained are usually
your sort of longish haired lapdog type, small dogs Like.
I'm more likely to see thiswith, say I hate to call out
(08:21):
specific breeds kind of mean,but like with, say, a shih tzu,
then I am with, say, a JackRussell terrier.
It's like I think people treatthem a little differently.
But I also think that these lapdogs may have and I know
someone's going to come back andbe like shih tzu are not just
lap dogs and that's true, butthat's how we treat them in this
(08:44):
country mostly.
And so I think that there mayalso be some differences in how
they're bred.
And you know, people expect aJack Russell to be willing and
able to go out and catch a rat.
People are not raising theiryou know, trying to think of
(09:04):
another Maltese to go out andcatch rats, even though a
Maltese probably could, butthat's not what they're raising
them to do.
And so when they're bred,they're bred to be these sort of
like what's the word?
I want To be sort of sweet andeasygoing and like to be cuddled
(09:24):
, and I think maybe when we'rebreeding for that, we don't
breed as much for the.
I'm going to really payattention to where I'm peeing
and pooping and think a lotabout what the rules are.
So, there may be some geneticfactors that go in there, along
with the size and how the dogsare treated, but I rarely meet a
Jack Russell who isn't housetrained.
(09:44):
I mean lots of Jack Russell'swho jump on couches, that's a
separate issue.
But I don't meet a lot of JackRussell's who are not properly
house trained.
But I meet a lot of Maltese andShih Tzu's who are not properly
house trained.
So does that come from thebreed they're in and some
genetic predisposition maybe?
Or does it come from the breedthey're in and they're being
(10:05):
treated differently?
That's another possibility.
So I'm not sure which it is.
But I will say, if you have oneof those little fluffy lap dog
types, you might have to think alittle more carefully.
Maybe people just forgive themmore because they're so adorable
, but in either case you need tothink more carefully about it,
(10:26):
because small dogs canabsolutely be house trained,
absolutely.
I've helped a million people.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Well, okay, not a million but you know what I mean
.
I've helped quite a many peoplehouse trains.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes, I've helped a lot of people house trained
small dogs who were not housetrained until they were several
years old.
So if it's an adult dog andit's not house trained, you can
still fix it.
You can still make thesituation better.
So, yeah, and the jumping onthings same thing.
You just need to set upbarriers, teach them where
(10:59):
they're supposed to be, wherethey're not supposed to be.
But it's a lot harder to getthe genie back in the bottle
when the dogs already learn tojump all over furniture or jump
on people or whatever else it is.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Right, you mentioned that you think that possibly
small dogs can't hold theirurine as long as larger dogs,
and what does that mean?
Timing wise, is there a way totell how long your dog, your
small dog, can hold their urine,or is that just something out
of the process of elimination,for the lack of better term?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Like there.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
see what I did there.
I really didn't mean to do thatthat.
You learn how long they canhold it Because there's a
general rule of thumb whenyou're potty training that for
every month well, at least apuppy like your dog can hold
what is it like for every monthof life.
They can hold it for a certainamount of time, or something
(12:00):
like that, until a certain age,right, yeah, how does that shift
for, or does it for, our smalldogs, or maybe that we don't
know?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So that's a great question.
The first thing I'm going tosay is I'm always suspicious of
those kinds of guidelinesbecause there's so much
individual variation.
The rule I generally hear isthey can hold it for an hour for
every month of age.
But I'm like, yeah, but onemonth old dogs can't hold it for
an hour and many two month olddogs can't hold it for two hours
.
So I tend to be reallyconservative.
(12:34):
So if I have a dog who isn't, sowhether it's an adult or a
puppy, for that matter if I havean adult excuse me, a dog that
isn't house trained and I wantto house train that dog, I start
by assuming they can't hold itat all.
And I want to point somethingout, which is that there's a
difference between holding it,like knowing how to hold it, and
(12:58):
being able to hold it.
So some dogs could probablyhold it longer, but they don't
think of it.
So, like dogs who have alwayshad indoor, outdoor access to
the yard, for instance, often ifthey get stuck indoors they
have no idea how to hold it.
It's like they haven't workedthat challenge in their mind and
(13:21):
in their body.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
So that's, one thing that's good to learn.
I think that's the case for themajority of the little dogs
that I work with, because theyhave, you know, someone's
usually home housekeeper orwhatnot, and the doors like open
to the backyard.
So that's just kind of.
They always know to go outside,right and so, and then when
they're with me they're justlike.
I think that's absolutely true.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
So there is this process of learning to hold it
like learning.
You can tolerate feeling likethis for 15 minutes, for 30
minutes, for an hour before youget to go outside.
So that's part of the process.
But having said that, while Ithink so, I've known large dogs
who can hold it for 12 hours.
No dog should be asked to dothat ever.
(14:05):
That's way too long.
But I've known large dogs whocan.
I doubt a small dog would stayphysically healthy if they were
consistently having to hold itfor 12 hours at a time.
I don't think it's great forthe large dogs' health either.
Small dogs, I usually assumeeven as adults, even when
they're fully house trained,they need a potty outing once
about every four hours.
(14:25):
I would like to see large dogsget a potty outing every four
hours, but if you didn't getthem out in time, they'll
probably be okay.
For small dogs, especially thereally teeny ones, like four
hours is like two days ofholding it for them.
So some of it depends on thedog's size and you can sort of
(14:46):
make some guesses, but then onceyou look at the individual dog,
the best way to figure this outreally is to just take notes.
She drank at three o'clock andshe peed at 3.15.
Or she drank at three o'clockand she didn't pee until five.
Or she drank at three o'clockand she didn't ask to go out at
(15:07):
all, but then she had anaccident at six.
All of those things.
If you can just literally for aweek, you only need to follow
your dog for a week to startfiguring this out.
Basically, you just follow thedog, follow, not necessarily
literally follow, but payattention to the dog's habits
for a week and then you'll know.
Oh, you know what.
(15:28):
I'd better take them out every30 minutes and then, once you
get to the point where I'm justsaying, for example, which is
actually what I recommend forpuppies is every 30 minutes, but
that's a side note.
Small dogs, that's also whereI'd start.
Adult, larger dogs, I'd startwith maybe 45 minutes to an hour
, depending on the size.
So I go out every 30 minutes.
(15:49):
The dog either potties ordoesn't, and then I supervise
the dog until the next time Itake them out.
If I notice them start to potty, I make sure I get them outside
.
Then I start to notice theynever potty at 2 pm or 2.30 or 3
, but they always potty at 3.30.
Okay, so then how about we skipthe outing?
So they didn't potty at 2.30.
(16:10):
Sorry, I said 230 or three, butthey potty at three.
So I take them out at two andthen I skip the 230 and then I
take them out at three and seewhat happens.
I don't push all the way, Ipush partway and, oh look, they
didn't pee at three and theypeed at 330 again.
Okay, so now I'm going to say Itake them out at two and I'm
going to wait until 330.
And sure enough, they hold itfrom two to 330 and they pee at
(16:32):
330.
Now I'm starting to get someanswers.
So, but the key is in thebeginning to say to the dog I'm
going to take you out on aregular basis, but in between
I'm also going to watch and youcan either put them, if they're
crate trained, you can put themin a crate so that they don't
potty when you're not watchingthem, or you just keep an eye on
(16:55):
them and look for thosecircling and sniffing behaviors.
But the bottom line is, look upa good sort of house training
guide and pretend the dog knowsnothing, and that's where you
start.
But having said that, to getback to the main question, I do
think that with small dogs, Iwill often ask people to take
(17:17):
them out a little more often.
I think it's great if smalldogs can get out every two to
three hours If you have a tinydog like I.
Have a client who has threedogs who are all under four
pounds there are potty pads outall the time and all the dogs
are potty pad trained so thatway if she has to leave and go
(17:40):
shopping, she doesn't have toworry that if she gets stuck in
traffic on the way home, thedogs don't have an option.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Right, that's great.
What about marking?
Do you think little dogs domore marking than big dogs?
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I think this is another one of those.
We let them get away with itand we don't try to resolve the
issue.
Almost all the dogs I know whomark indoors and it is like
where it's marking and not justI have to pee?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I have a.
I think I have a few.
They are almost always smalldogs.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah,interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, but I think it's because people didn't
bother to house train themproperly and this was the thing
that they let slip.
So marking is a house trainingproblem.
It is not some kind ofdominance thing.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
That's what I wanted to clarify, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, so marking is a house training issue.
Now I will say there arecertain things that can trigger
more marking, like if you have astrange animal come into your
house and by strange I don'tnecessarily mean that it's
really weird, I just mean likesomeone else brings their dog,
or you have a friend with a cat,or you have a friend with a
(19:00):
ferret or whatever.
Sometimes dogs like they smellthat and then they it's almost
like they're compelled to pee onthe smell.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
So I'll see this with dogs, where they're perfectly
house trained.
They visited like 15 differentpeople's houses, everything's
great.
Then they walk into the housewhere someone has a cat and they
pee on the cat litter or theypee on the cat bed and it's like
, oh, this smell is so strange,I don't know what to do.
I guess I'll pee on it.
And again, it's just a housetraining mistake.
To have the inclination to peeon something is different from
(19:39):
then choosing to actually do it,which is the same as oh, I kind
of need to pee.
If you think about basic housetraining, right, I kind of need
to pee.
I guess I'll just pee, asopposed to I kind of need to pee
, but I'll wait till the humantakes me out so we can teach
them to control that impulse andnot mark.
Having said that, I know onedog who belonged to an expert
(20:03):
expert trainer who I knew, whoused to breed sorry, this is
just funny.
So I have to say this out loudshe bred Dobermans and Yorkies.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It is funny.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Quite the combination .
So we always had like half adozen Yorkies in her home,
because they all they lived inher home.
She separated them when thefemales were in heat.
She only bred when she was avery responsible breeder, kept
the Dobermans apart from theYorkies when the Yorkies were in
heat, and vice versa, and allof that.
But she had this one male ofher nine Yorkies that she had at
(20:37):
the time who, no matter whatshe did, she could not stop him
from marking, and so for him shegot a belly band which is like
a diaper right.
It's like a male diaper.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah.
Some senior dogs that I knowhave worn those, yeah,
interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
And the great thing about that is then you don't
have the cleanup, you don't havethe smell and none of the other
dogs in the house are like, ohwell, somebody potted over here,
so this must be a bathroom.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right, I think that's what tends to happen.
They're like oh, we're doingthis over here.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
All right, let's do it over here Exactly.
They're like yay, somebodyopened the new bathroom, yeah,
so, yeah, so the marking.
I would say go back and saywhen is it happening, where is
it happening, block access tothat area, take the dog out at
those times, and then the thingthat I will encourage everyone
(21:30):
to do is let your dog mark onwalks.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
That was going to be my next question.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
People have it in their heads.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, people have it in their heads.
If I let my dog mark on walks,he's going to mark indoors, and
I actually find it's the exactopposite.
If you don't let them have alegal and appropriate outlet for
the marking Xire or whateverthe right word is that they're
gonna let that out in some otherway.
So give them an opportunity tobark where they're supposed to
(22:00):
praise and treat them when theymark on walks.
Like Charlotte, my dog,franklin.
Franklin thought that walks werebasically all about your leg
forty times and sniffing variousthings didn't matter.
If you ran out of P, you stilllifted your leg totally, and
they really like their.
They like to mark.
(22:20):
Great, here's the context whereyou mark.
It's like football, you know,sorry, it's, it's, it's the
playoffs.
Yeah, you're not supposed to goaround tackling people.
Yeah, and if you're a footballplayer, you shouldn't do that
off the field.
But on the field you're allowedto tackle people.
(22:42):
So do we think that by teachingfootball players to tackle other
people, we're gonna make themtackle people in other
situations?
Right?
Not usually, I mean.
I'm not saying that neverhappen, but for the vast
majority of them they understand.
This is where I get to let outthis particular kind of
aggression or this particularkind of behavior.
So same thing with the dogs whomark.
(23:03):
They want to mark.
Let them do the markingsomewhere that is appropriate,
and you can even praise and feedthem a treat for doing that, so
that it's more valuable to markoutside and then block access
to wherever they're marking ortake them out at times when they
would normally mark indoors.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I wanted to ask.
I wanted to bring up justreally briefly, like so marking.
It's not really related, butit's like.
Well, it's really talking aboutmarking but For some people
still don't, may not understandwhy a dog marks.
Can we just clarify whatmarking is like?
In my mind, it is leaving amessage for all the dogs in the
neighborhood, or, as my momwould call it, leaving a P mail
(23:44):
right, so, yes, the word female.
What is that?
You know?
Is that Fact, or do we not know100% why dogs mark?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
We don't know, we really don't know.
So people who study caninebehavior they're called the
ethologists have theories aboutwhy dogs leave sent, but
honestly, there's no specieswhere we've been able to
completely tease out why they'redoing it.
The strong theories that Ithink you know, or the
(24:18):
hypotheses I should be moreprecise, the strong hypotheses
that are out there are thatAnimals that mark whether that's
a lion scraping their clawsdown a tree, because that leaves
sense, because they've got sentin the pads of their hands, so
to speak.
Or you know, a dog peeing on apole, or a bear Rubbing against
(24:43):
something and leaving a littlebit of sent in skin.
That way bears do all kinds ofreally cool rubbing behavior is
just a side note, but that'sbeside the point.
Yeah, all of those behaviorswere not 100% sure why they're
there.
What we do know is that,functionally, what they do is
(25:05):
they let another animal knowthat that animal has been there.
So other animals are picking upthe messages, right, but I'm
not sure if the animal who leftthe message realize that someone
else would pick up the messageor if they just sort of
intuitively they're like oh,pole, I should leave my set here
right now I have a theory aboutmarking myself that I don't
(25:28):
mark.
Not right dogs are not markingme sorry, I myself.
Have a theory about marking,which is which relates to why
dogs tend to mark when they'reanxious or right after an
anxious situation.
So if you watch two dogsmeeting on leash which is super
unnatural for dogs, but that's aside note A lot of times what
(25:50):
you'll see is you'll see thedogs.
They do like their littlesniffing routine.
Everybody does the little like.
They banana around each other,they sniff each other's butts
and then, as soon as they moveon, both dogs go and pee on
something.
So I think that there could betwo things going on there.
I think one is that they justget a little excited in their
physiologically a little bitmore up, and so they feel the
(26:11):
need to be more.
But the other thing could bethat they've learned that peeing
makes them feel better, whichit does right.
It's reinforcing to pee.
We feel better after we peebecause we were feeling Full and
now we're comfortable, right.
So I think sometimes they'relike I'm really anxious, I need
to do something to relieve thisanxiety, and somewhere in their
(26:31):
brain they know that being makesthem feel better, so they pee.
I think the same thing mighthave to do with the smells of
other things in like like oh, Ismelled a cat.
I'm gonna pee on that like Idon't quite know what to do with
that.
It's interesting, I'll pee onit Right now.
One of the areas of researchthat I'd love to see develop is
(26:55):
what dogs actually notice aboutthe urine that they're smelling
like.
Do they know their pee fromsomebody else's pee?
And they're starting to doresearch on these things?
Interesting, so yeah, so morewill be known, hopefully within
a few years to be continued.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
yeah, yes well, let's move on to barking, because I
know my little guys, they, they,you know, some of them just go
bananas, like out on walks oreven in the house.
You know, it just seems likethey're all the height and
(27:31):
senses like the stranger danger,and Some just bark to bark, as
you said, to be seen.
But it seems like some bring itlike in a way that is, it seems
like either they're some, some,some owner, some pet parents
would say that their dogs areprotecting them, that they're,
(27:52):
you know, on the defense toprotect their owner.
I would say they just seemsuper scared and like freaked
out by everything and over, likewhelmed.
Do you find that to be true orwhat's your take on barking?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
So Barking is complicated and it's gonna
really depend on the dog, and Iwill say right now that there
are some dogs that only barkwhen they're human.
Is there?
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, I do know that there's two.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
There's two, two variations of that.
One is the.
I bark when someone approachesme and I'm standing next to my
human, which almost feels likethey're guarding the human a
little right, and that may bewhat's happening Not sure,
because I can't ask the dogRight.
Then there's the.
I only bark when my human isaround because I know that when
(28:41):
I bark my human Looks at me ortalks to me or yells at me yeah
or comes over to me, all ofwhich is attention, and I've
learned to bark for attention.
So I only bark when the human isthere.
So that kind of barking, likesometimes I do think that the
dog is, it's, if it's a guardingbehavior, which is hard to
tease out because, like I said,I can't actually say to the dog
(29:03):
Lie down on the couch, tell meabout your mother and tell me if
you're barking because you'reguarding your human.
Yeah, I can't do any of that.
So I mean I can get them to liedown on the couch, maybe.
Right, that's about it.
Yeah, so For those dogs whobark when someone approaches
their human, or maybe they growland sort of posture a little
(29:24):
bit around their human, theymight actually be saying, hey,
keep away from my human.
That is possible.
I don't know because I can'task them.
For the ones who only bark whenthe human is around and if you
look carefully you see the thedog is getting Attention for
barking then the barking isprobably about attention.
But a lot of these small dogsespecially, they bark whether
(29:47):
someone is home or not, and soif no one's if, so if they
barked, let's say they heardsomething outside the door or
the window or you live in anapartment building and there's a
trash Shoot down the hall Ihave a specific client this is
true for which is where thisexample comes from and every
time someone opens and closesthe trash shoot, the dog barks.
(30:07):
Right, that's not about thehuman being there, that is.
I heard something and that goesdown to that sort of like what
you just said, like they'rescared, they're anxious about
the situation, like they'refreaked out, like, oh my god,
trash shoot, trash shoot, trashshoot.
You know, I mean it's, it's not.
I don't think it's like arational, rational thing.
(30:28):
In those cases there's a lot ofoh no, oh no to the kind of
barking that you see, especiallywith small dogs.
It can really be panicked.
It's definitely panic if theybark when you're away.
I wouldn't say definitely.
It's almost certainly panic ifthey bark when you're away and
they just bark the whole time.
You're away, yeah, and thatwould be separation anxiety,
which is a panic disorder.
(30:49):
But If you're home and most ofthe time they're not barking at
you, and then the trash shoot,closes and they bark, they're
barking about the trash shoot,and a lot of small dogs large
dogs too, but a lot of smalldogs are very sensitive to like
sudden noises, yeah, things theysee walking by, sounds that
(31:10):
they hear Thunder kind of sounds, firework kind of sounds and
they'll bark at those things.
And I do think that you're right, charlotte, them, those cases,
they're like they're a littlefreaked out, they're not totally
comfortable.
At best they're saying get away, get away, get away, don't come
any closer, which is not acomfortable feeling to come from
right.
They're not feeling comfortableif they're saying that and at
(31:32):
worst they're like oh my gosh,this horrible thing just
happened, which is not acomfortable emotional place to
be.
So I Do see a lot of that andthe one thing that I want to add
, before I completely forgetthis, is that there are factors
that will make a dog more likelyto overreact to things, like if
they're in pain Right, and alot of small dogs have issues
(31:56):
with their knees or other joints.
So it like their, their kneeswill, their kneecaps, the way
their knee works.
They just they're not stableenough.
And so you, you see, you know,when you see small dogs pick up
their back leg every five stepsas they're walking, that's
because their patella is notseated right.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Okay, is that like a floating patella?
And so what, that is kind ofyeah okay.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, basically, and so Basically, they're a little
uncomfortable all the time.
So if you think about how youfeel, if you have a headache,
every little thing is a littlemore annoying.
Then, when you don't have aheadache, so if they're having a
little bit of pain all the time, that's gonna make them more
likely to bark.
So the first question youshould ask yourself this goes to
(32:43):
house training too is is thedog medically okay?
Yeah, are they sick?
Do they need, you know, somekind of orthopedic treatment, or
do they have a headache?
We don't know yet whether ornot dogs can have headaches, but
it's another issue that's beingexplored in research right now.
So so I do find sometimes thebarking seems to get better if
(33:07):
we treat the dogs medical needsand, and so sometimes it's every
noise just sets me off.
Sometimes it's every noise setsme off because I'm already
feeling a little anxious, sickor in pain to begin with.
So anyway, those are mythoughts.
That was a really rambly set ofthoughts on.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, panic is definitely there, the worry and
panic absolutely I, and what I'mabout to say is not to shame
pet parents in any way, shape orform.
But I do know that sometimes wetend to think that little dogs,
the things little dogs are cute, cuter than what we would think
.
Would you know if a larger dogwas doing it?
So your little dog is scared,it's cute because he's turning
(33:49):
to you and all sorts of stuffand he's like freaking out.
Or your little dog is Yellingat somebody or another dog.
You think it's cute?
Oh, you're just being silly,you know, like you know, we just
think it's there.
We're there being silly, aren'tthey being cute where we
wouldn't if a bigger dog wasexhibiting those behaviors,
because of the potential.
(34:11):
You know, if you're a little dog, if your large dog is lunging,
it's scary to other people.
Walking, it's also about hearthurts your shoulder.
There's all sorts of reasonswhy we address those behaviors.
Are there things that we'reencouraging in our little dogs?
Do you think To create maybe,some of these behaviors?
I know that's a slippery slope,but I'll put put it a different
(34:32):
way how can we show up for ourlittle dogs to not encourage
like Some of the behaviors thatwe see, like the barking, and
and still show up for them andprotect them with their you know
if they're showing anxiety andstuff like that, but Does that
make sense?
Yes it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So first of all I want to say I mentioned I have a
client who has four dogs threedogs, three dogs, sorry who are
all under four pounds.
When I met her first of thoseunder three pound dogs, one of
the very first things she saidto me is I want my dog to be
just as well behaved as a largedog would be.
And this was a dog who at thetime weighed a pound and eight
(35:15):
ounces, so she was like youcould more or less literally
hold her in the palm of yourhand.
She was so small and I was likethis is the attitude everybody
with a tiny or small or whateversize dog should have is, if
it's not cute and a great day.
And it's not cute, my tiny dog,Right.
So I do think we need to stopand think like would this be
(35:37):
cute if the dog was 90 pounds?
Would this be cute?
And even just stopping to thinkabout that I think can be
really helpful.
Yeah, I think that a lot oftimes small dogs bark or
especially like aggressive andfearful behavior.
You'll see it, because we'renot there being helpful to our
(36:01):
dog.
You know, like we let peopleswoop in and just grab them or
we let people rush towards them,even if they're not going to
grab them.
All these things can be kind ofscary and I think it can be
really nice to just be like hey,really important, let my dog
come to you and decide how theywant to interact instead of you
(36:26):
invading their space.
They're small, you're big, it'sscary for them and I think it
can really help to do thosethings.
Then the other thing is, youknow, really, as you said, like
how can I be there for them?
My dog is barking.
Okay, maybe the first time Ismiled, like I'm thinking about
the noises that French Bulldogsmake, for instance, can be
(36:47):
really entertaining.
Yeah, so maybe the first time Ican't help myself, and I kind
of giggled Because it makes yougiggle, yeah, totally.
Because it makes you giggle.
But then I need to stop andthink is this a noise I want to
hear a lot more of?
Right, and if it isn't, can Istop myself from giggling next
time?
Right, and I think it can makea really big difference to just
(37:10):
stop and think.
When I'm with a dog, I'm alwaysthinking about this.
Obviously I'm a professional,so my brain is like trained, oh,
it's on in that way, but I'malways thinking about this what
is my behavior right nowencouraging in the dog, and do I
want to encourage that thing?
So you have to stop and askyourself that question.
(37:32):
All the time the dog barkedbecause somebody walked by.
Oh, isn't that funny.
But do I really want them tobark?
Every single time someonewalked by?
My dog barked at a big dog andthe other the big dog ran away,
which happens more often thannot Totally.
And isn't that funny.
My dog scared the GermanShepherd Totally and then one
(37:53):
day they're going to come acrossthe German Shepherd, who's
going to decide to make themquiet and is going to go after
them.
Yeah, so I don't want toencourage them to bark at large
dogs.
I don't want to be like, ha ha,ha, that's so cute they jump on
me.
Do I want them to jump oneveryone else?
Can I teach them?
Here's my signal that says toyou yes, please come jump on me.
(38:17):
But then nobody else gives thatsignal.
So I really think it'simportant.
When you have a small dog, it'sso easy to just dismiss stuff as
oh, it's not important.
You know the dog's pulling onleash, but who cares?
Still, you should teach thatdog how to walk on leash
properly, because even a smalldog pulling hard enough can hurt
(38:38):
your shoulder.
And don't even get me startedon the small dogs who are on 30
foot extendable leashes and aretripping people because the
leash is tripping them.
So stop and think about all ofthose things and say like, how
would this look in the long term?
What if this were a large dog?
Would I be allowing this?
(38:58):
And I'm not saying you can'tallow your small dog to sit in
your lap because maybe you don'twant your 120-pound great Dane
sitting in your lap.
Like you can say, this is finefor this dog and most people
will be fine with my dog beingin their lap, right, but just
stop and think about it, becausesmall dogs don't need to have
(39:19):
small dog syndrome.
They can be comfortable andconfident and well adjusted and
completely house trained andreasonably quiet, bearing in
mind that some breeds are bredto bark more like terriers, okay
, and you're going to get morebarking from them.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
What about, like?
We often just pick our dog orsmall dog up when there's when
they're doing like?
What's the line between pickingyour small dog up to show them
that you're protecting them andthat you've got their back, and
creating like?
(39:59):
Not creating like, independenceand confidence, right?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So first rule is there shouldbe a verbal cue before you pick
your dog up, except inemergencies.
I'm going to get intoemergencies in just a second.
But in a normal situation I'mgoing to say I don't know why,
up up is always my pick up cue.
I don't know why, but I'll liketap my legs and say up up.
(40:30):
And then I watch what the dogdoes and once the dog has
learned that up up means I'mgoing to pick them up, what
they'll start doing is they'llsay yes or no.
And yes is I come over and Ijump on you and you can pick me
up.
For most small dogs, no is theykeep their distance.
So the first thing is can youimagine if some 40 foot tall
(40:51):
giant just grabbed you with nowarning and then carried you to
another place and suddenlyyou're somewhere else?
Yeah, and maybe it's reallyscary to jump off of wherever
they just put you Like.
I've seen small dogs get likestuck on the couch.
You know, stop and think.
Give them a chance to say notright now, or can you give me a
(41:11):
second, or at least you'regiving them a warning so they
know when your hands come and ifyou find that they move away
from you every time, then theyprobably don't like to be picked
up.
So not all small dogs like tobe picked up.
A lot of dogs will come in, askto be picked up when they want
to be picked up, right.
So I like to have a signal,that like up up signal, so that
they can say yes or no to me.
(41:33):
And it's pretty obvious usuallyif they're like yes, yes, pick
me up.
So that's one thing.
Now, having said that, that'sobviously we're interacting,
we're having fun.
I picked you up, maybe I'mpetting you for a little bit and
then I put you down pretty soonafter.
Or maybe I picked you up to getyou on the couch and then you
can decide if you want tosnuggle with me on the couch or
(41:54):
sit at the opposite end of thecouch or whatever it is you want
to do.
That's one scenario.
But then there's the.
We're on a walk and a 90 poundoff leash dog is racing towards
us and I am worried about thewell-being not just well-being,
welfare, like actual life anddeath of my small dog and you
(42:16):
pick the dog up.
So I'm all for it.
Pick your dog up in thosesituations, because the first
thing you have to do is protectphysically protect your small
dog.
Be aware that sometimes mostdogs who are off leashing come
running at you have no badintentions.
They're just too friendly andoff of the leash.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, but most of the time.
But some of them will actuallywant to get your small dog.
So just be aware that when youpick your small dog up, you may
wind up being the target thatgets bitten in that situation.
Right, I'm not saying don't doit, I'm just saying be aware.
And I can say right now that,like for me, for my husband, we
would much rather we get bittenthan our dog.
(42:58):
Like, that's just the way ourminds work.
But you need to know thatthat's a possibility.
The one thing is that when, asyou said, like, are you taking
away the dog's confidence.
If you pick the dog up everytime another dog comes along,
then they might be left with theimpression that they can't be
on the ground when there areother dogs around and that
(43:20):
something bad is going to happen, right?
So I usually leave small dogson their own for pause on the
ground when a dog is approaching, as long as that dog's behavior
is reasonably calm and the doglooks friendly, and I also call
out hey, is your dog friendly?
Right?
There is only one correctanswer to that question yes.
(43:42):
The correct answer isimmediately yes.
You know if?
Speaker 1 (43:46):
they stop yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
If they stop in their thinking, you say hey, is your
dog friendly?
And they go um yes, that's nota yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is your dog male or female?
That's not a yes Cause I'veheard that.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Like oh, my dog likes male dogs.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Is your dog male or female?
Yeah, no, I don't want to riskthat.
He that I have the one male doghe doesn't like, right, right,
you know.
So I ask.
And if it's a dog who seems tobe approaching in a reasonable
pace they're not racing in,they're not super excited I'm
absolutely happy to let thosedogs meet on their own, pause on
(44:23):
the ground instead of like upin my arms.
So I do think that we can makethe mistake of being so worried
about our small dog that we pickthem up all the time and never
let them encounter other dogs,and then they start doing this
thing where they're barking frominside our arms and right, it's
no fun.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
So my next question, really quickly, would be what if
we're not worried about oursmall dogs but our small dogs
are yelling and going bonkers ateverybody else walking by and
when we pick them up they stopor they pick them up?
And they're still barking, butat least we can move a little
quicker and get away from thesituation or whatever Like what
(45:01):
is the what's, what about that?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Okay.
So that's a really greatquestion because I do run into
that with clients.
So if I pick them up andthey're continuing to bark and
I'm just moving away to getdistance, I call that managing
the situation.
I'm not really teaching the dogvery much in that moment.
They're not going to learnanything from it.
I need to come up with astrategy to help them feel
better about other dogs Right,right, and you can.
You know you can look intopositive reinforcement methods
(45:28):
for helping dogs feel betterabout other dogs, like open bar.
Closed bar, for instance, is areally simple one that you can
use.
If you look up open bar, closedbar, it'll that that will
populate.
It's a really simple, easy wayto start making your dog feel
better about other dogs.
So I'm picking the dog up inthe moment I'm going.
Oh, he's barking at other dogs.
(45:48):
I really need to come up with asolution for this Right.
Start applying the solution.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
But when they get to the point where they're barking,
they're not going to learnanything new.
Open bar, closed bar, will nolonger work.
You just pick them up and walkaway.
That's fine.
Okay For the dogs that theybark, and then you pick them up
and then they're quiet.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
I have a theory about those dogs.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Okay.
So there's two possibilities.
One is you're holding them,they're more comfortable, and so
they stop barking because nowthey're more comfortable, they
don't feel threatened.
Yeah, yep, they feel safer.
The other possibility is thatthey actually feel really safe
when you hold them.
In general, they see a dogracing towards them and they
(46:32):
have learned that if they barkwhen there's a dog coming
towards them, you pick them up.
So they're basically saying hey, can you please pick me up
because I don't feel safe.
Got it so?
So for some dogs, I think it'sjust one of those things where,
like, you hold them and eitherthey feel a little bit more
behaviorally constrained orinhibited which could happen,
but the barking stops, it's allgood, we don't want them to
(46:54):
practice the barking or they areliterally saying hey, hey, pick
me up, pick me up, pick me up.
And that's their way of sayinghey, pick me up.
But either way, I'm just goingto say because I've done this
I've had so many clients wherewe do this with when, if you
have that dog, that you pickthem up and they stop barking at
the other dog, pick them up,walk them up, walk them away.
(47:16):
Yeah, totally fine to do that.
Totally, everybody safe.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
Totally fine, but then again start training for it
, right?
They're not really learninganything, I'm going to Yep.
They're not learning a newskill.
They need a new skill.
Teach them a new skill.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Got it Well.
Thank you, eiread.
I think we covered a lot.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
I think I think we covered a lot, yeah.
So all I will say is like myperfect world would be the world
where all the small dogs are aswell behaved as the large dogs
and the small dogs feel morecomfortable because I think a
lot of small dogs they just getpoked and prodded and picked up
and moved around and treated ina way you would never treat a
(47:59):
rottweiler the way you treat.
You know maltese Right, and Ithink that we need to think
about making them feel safe andcomfortable in their world, and
some of that means thatsometimes I'm not just going to
decide now is petting time andgrab my dog.
So it would be really nice ifwe could all help our small dogs
(48:20):
feel more comfortable but alsohave expectations that they be
house trained and know how towalk on leash just like a big
dog would.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
Right.
Well, thank you, eiread.
This is very informative, perusual, and I always appreciate
you coming on Well it's such apleasure.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Thank you, I love it.
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