October 3, 2023 • 36 mins
In this episode I chat with renowned veterinarian Dr. Karen Tobias, DVM, MS, DACVS. We discuss what the latest science reveals about spaying and neutering our pups. We delve into why we should be taking an individualized approach, with attention to the health benefits, the side effects, and the age- and breed-specific considerations to help you determine the best time to schedule your pup’s gonadectomy.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years and, while I've learned alot in my career, I definitely
don't know at all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people and I learn newthings from them all the time.
Hi you guys.
(00:43):
Thank you so much for joiningme for this episode of the Baroo
Podcast.
In today's chat I talk withrenowned veterinarian Dr Karen
Tobias.
We chat about spaying andneutering our pets, the health
benefits, the side effects andthe age and breed specific
considerations that can helpdetermine the best time to
schedule the procedure.
I do want to mention andclarify something I think I
(01:04):
bring up around the 30 minutemark.
I bring up the push formandatory spay and neuter laws
in the city of Los Angeles and Icompletely misspoke.
We have had mandatory spay andneuter laws in Los Angeles for
quite some time.
The laws require that cats anddogs over four months of age be
spayed or neutered and it doesprovide for some specific
(01:25):
exemptions.
The law is really aimed athumanely reducing the number of
pets that are abandoned andeuthanized each year, and what
they are pushing for now is forthis law to actually be enforced
, this law that has been aroundfor quite some time.
They're hoping it can beenforced to help with the
overpopulation crisis that weare seeing right now in our city
(01:46):
and county shelters and,unfortunately, the rate of
euthanasia that is happeningsimply because they don't have
any more space in the shelters.
We only touched on this briefly,but I just wanted to clarify,
and this is a really importantconversation, so let's jump into
the chat.
Well, first of all, thank youso much for jumping on and
(02:14):
chatting with me.
We are going to talk aboutspaying and neutering our pets
and clear up some of themisinformation around it, and
talk about the latest scienceand the latest research in
regards to spaying and neuteringour pets, and I would love it
if you would introduce yourselfto my listeners.
You have many, manyqualifications, too many for me
(02:36):
to even keep track of, so I'lllet you do the honors.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I'm Dr Karen Tobias and I am a professor at
the University of Tennessee, theCollege of Veterinary Medicine,
and I've been here at UT forabout 23 years and I've had a
long career before then, and Iguess what I'm specifically
known for is several textbooksthat I've written or edited, or
(03:02):
both, that provide a lot ofinformation about surgery in
dogs and cats.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, so how did you get start?
Can we briefly talk about howyou got started in veterinary
medicine?
I love to hear a little bitabout people's backgrounds.
I love what their inspirationwas.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, I graduated from University of Illinois
College of Veterinary Medicineand initially when I went to
Southern Illinois University Iwanted to be a forest ranger and
ride around the course in thewoods and and sounds great
Builder and all that kind ofstuff.
And when I went into forestry Ifound out 95% of the jobs were
(03:41):
desk jobs.
So I said, well, I'm just goingto be a veterinarian and then
I'll go ahead and be a forestranger.
Yeah, I found out it wasn'tquite that simple, but anyway, I
got into veterinary medicineand I absolutely loved it and
turned out that I was good withmy hands and so I went on and
did an internship at Purdue anda residency in a master's at
(04:02):
Ohio State and then clinical,clinical and structure ship in
Georgia and then I taught atWashington State University.
So it's been a lot of places inthe country.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Wow, I would love it if I feel like there's a lot of
misinformation out there aboutspaying and neutering your pet
and a lot of confusinginformation out there, so I was
hoping we could just jump in andtalk about that.
When I adopted my dog Chance,he was around they said around
10 months old, and I didn't haveto think about it at all.
(04:34):
He came to me neutered.
They did that.
That's part of part of whatthey do and I think it's.
I think it's mandatory with alot of rescues in many different
states to only be able to adoptout dogs that have been spayed
or neutered.
So I didn't think about that atall.
But as I've had this businessfor I've had a dog care business
for upwards of God, I thinkit's over 15 years now it's a.
(04:58):
It's a conflicting issue for alot of my clients when they get
a new dog.
Some don't want to spay orneuter their dog at all because
they feel A sorry for the dogsomehow or are worried about the
health benefits with, or thehealth issues that could come
with, spaying or neutering theirpet and some want to do it like
right away, like as soon asthey possibly can, like I don't
(05:18):
want to deal with this.
When's the earliest that I cando this?
Let's just get this over with.
So first I would like to justcover some really basic
information what is spaying andneutering and why is it
important and Right?
Yeah, we'll just start withthat, all right.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, I think traditionally a spay has
included removal of the ovariesand removal of most of the
uterus, and that's beensomething that's been promoted
for a very long time in theUnited States, and there have
been many reasons why it's beenpromoted.
One is that it's easier forowners to manage Sometimes very
(05:57):
hard for owners to deal with afemale dog that's in heat, and
so not only do they have toworry about whatever mess
happens in their house, but theyhave to worry about protecting
that animal from becomingpregnant, and so that does take
a lot of work, and so mostanimals or most owners, I would
say do it as a convenient factoris to try and take care of
(06:20):
those Got it.
Another reason why it's beentraditional to spay animals is
this 1940s to 1960s there was alot of research done that looked
at mammary cancer, mammarytumors in dogs, and found out
that if you remove that hormonalsource before those dogs are
(06:41):
six months of age, it willdramatically reduce the risk of
mammary cancer.
And so those were the two mainbenefits that were described for
spaying, for neutering.
I think the main benefit wasnot necessarily the fact that
you prevent the female dogs fromgetting impregnated.
It seems like the males don'treally care about that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think that's a cross the board.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I think the bigger thing was trying to control some
of those male behaviors.
And so if you have an animalthat's getting aggressive, if
you have an animal that'shumping your leg, a lot of those
types of things you might hopewould be decreased if you
castrate those animals, and thenmost intact male dogs are going
(07:31):
to get an enlarged prostate.
That's a problem with people aswell as dogs, and so if you're
having clinical signs from thatin your dogs, where they're
straining to defecate andthey've got abdominal discomfort
and maybe they even get aninfection, then castration is
going to take care of that.
So that's been the traditionalreason for castrating, and in
(07:52):
castration, most of the timewhat that means is actually
removing the testicles fully,and so you're not leaving
anything there.
You're not leaving any malehormones there at all.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Okay, so is that true that if you remove?
I might be jumping around a bithere, but if you, I've heard
mixed things about removing,like if you neuter a dog, that
it how it affects their level ofaggression or reactivity.
I've been told by some that itcan help that an intact dogs
tend to be calmer than dogs whohave had that hormone removed.
(08:29):
Do we want to address that?
So?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I think there are a lot of behavioral studies that
have come out recently and thatare still ongoing to look at the
effects of castration andovarohysterectomy, and certainly
if you have some problems withinteraction between dogs and you
have an intact male dog, youmay remove some of that activity
(08:53):
.
You know you got to get rid ofsome of the hormonally related
activity.
Whether or not it will changeaggression towards humans just
depends on the inciting factor.
If it's hormonally related,then yes, that would decrease
the aggression.
But if it is the behaviorthat's not associated with
hormones, those types of thingswon't change at all.
(09:15):
And so I think we do have thisidea that that castrating or
spaying is going to cause theseanimals to calm down.
But realistically, when youlook at what happens in Europe,
most people in Europe don't jumptoward ovarohysterectomy or
castration.
They learn how to manage theiranimals intact, and those
(09:36):
animals are pretty darn wellbehaved when you see them in the
pubs in Ireland and stuff likethat, and so I think part of it
is an issue with owners.
We owners in the United Statesseem to be looking for easy
answers.
Whether it's behavior orwhether it's managing a dog and
heat, we're always looking forthe quickest, easiest solution,
instead of really thinking aboutwhat are other things we could
(09:58):
potentially be doing.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Right, like working on socialization and proper diet
and all the things that willhelp our dogs.
So and I've also heard that inyou know that other dogs who are
neutered respond differently todogs who are intact.
(10:23):
So that may be where, becausethey are smelling those hormones
that are different to them,things that they may not, that
just smells different than otherdogs, right, so they may have.
I don't know if that's true,but they may have a reaction to
or reactivity towards a dog thatis unneutered versus a dog that
(10:43):
is neutered.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I don't know whether there have been any studies on
that in the United States,because my emphasis isn't as
behavior as much, but I cancertainly tell you that my own
dog who spayed I got her in ananalgesal disorder as well, so
she came spayed.
When I got her she had adifferent reaction to other dogs
.
Now that she's got some olderdog hormonal problems, dogs
(11:08):
react differently to her, so Icould see why that would change.
But again, I don't know whetherthis would also be something
related to where you're from,because if all European dogs are
mostly intact, you're probablyused to smelling those types of
pheromones if you're another dog, whereas here in the United
States, if they're mostlyneutered, maybe that does cause
(11:29):
a difference in their behavior.
Hmm, interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I'll have to look into that a little bit more.
So what are the benefits ofspaying other than the pet
population, which is not whatwe're talking about today, which
is a big issue in the UnitedStates the overpopulation?
What are some of the healthbenefits of spaying your pets
versus health benefits ofneutering your pets and what are
(11:57):
some of the?
We've talked a little bit aboutwhat can happen when you don't
spay or neuter your pet.
Some of the issues that comewhat are the benefits of spaying
and neutering your pet and doesit vary between breed?
Does it vary between dog or age?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I think, when we're looking at the benefits of
removing the ovaries and that'san important thing for people to
know is that as long as youtake the ovaries out, you don't
have to take the uterus out.
And so while in general wethink of spay as being ovaries
and most of the uterus, a lot ofpeople just take the ovaries
out.
And if we do itlaparoscopically, which is an
(12:30):
even faster recovery for largedogs particularly, we just take
the ovaries out.
So besides the mammary cancerand that's the number one thing,
mammary cancer, reduction inthe risk of mammary cancer
Another thing would be thatpyometras, infected uterus, is
very, very common as certainbreeds get older, and that is a
(12:51):
breed related percentage.
So there was one group ofbeagles where 60 or 70% of them
got pyometra and infected uteruswhen they got old.
If you have one of those breeds, I guess, that are going to be
predisposed to pyometra, thendoing an ovariohysterectomy will
(13:11):
prevent that risk, and pyometracan be fatal, and so maybe that
might be another indication forit If you had a Doberman with
von Willebrand's disease, and sothe animal has trouble clotting
its blood, having it go into aheat cycle every six months to a
year, depending on howfrequently it is for your dog
(13:33):
could also be dangerous, and sofor certain dogs that have
problems with blood clotting asa genital issue, as a breed
related issue, those animalsshould have an ovarioctomy
because we don't want them goingthrough the heat cycle.
There have been some paperswhere certain dogs with epilepsy
(13:54):
are better controlled ifthey're spayed and certain dogs
with diabetes are bettercontrolled if they're spayed,
and so those might be specificissues that aren't necessarily
related to a breed, but arerelated to an older animal
disease that indicate this is agood idea, just in case, because
(14:16):
we don't want to have to bedealing with more infections or
we want to be able to reduce theseizures.
It's not a general thing,though.
I don't think every Australianshepherd owner is going to
benefit from taking their dogout for an ovarioctomy, because
I don't know if anything makes adifference in Australian
shepherds with seizures In termsof the male dogs.
(14:37):
Besides prostatic enlargement,prostatic infections can happen.
As they get the prostaticenlargement, they'll get cysts
in their prostates and thenthose can get infected, and so
that risk would be reduced.
And then testicular tumors arevery, very common in older dogs.
(14:59):
However, most of the timethey're not malignant tumors,
but when they are malignanttumors, their bone marrow can
get suppressed, and if theirbone marrow gets suppressed, it
may not come back, and so evenif we castrate them, they may
still have trouble making whitecells or making red cells.
It's such a very, very lowpercentage that the important
(15:21):
thing that we have to thinkabout is what's the risk of this
versus the benefit of this, andthat is definitely a
breed-related decision.
What breeds you have shouldaffect whether or not you neuter
, and it should affect when youneuter.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Okay, and what about people who have like mixed up
rescue dogs?
Then nobody knows.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I think our Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
A lot of these studies are not complete.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So, for instance, there's a big study out of UC
Davis that was.
It was a fantastic study atLixxet, I think 33 different
breeds, it's probably the bestbroad spectrum study that we
have.
But unfortunately they reallywere only like able to follow
dogs out to about eight years ofage and if a lot of the cancer
happens after that age then it'snot going to give you the most
(16:17):
information possible.
But in that study they listedthe effects that they would see
in those 33 breeds.
And then there have been somevery good studies on golden
retrievers, labrador retrievers,german cheffords and rock
filers.
I would say that those are thefour breeds that have been
studied the most in terms ofthings like joint disease and
(16:40):
when we should neuter based onthat.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
You mentioned removing just the ovaries.
Is that something that many,most veterinarians offer now, or
is that a new, something that'snew?
Because I did have a client askme if I knew of anyone who just
removed the ovaries, anyveterinarians that just removed
(17:02):
the ovaries, and I couldn't saythat I did.
So that was something that wasnew to me and I didn't know that
that was something that'soffered now, and is it healthier
to do that versus taking thewhole shebang for technical
terms?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
A biggest benefit of ovarioectomy is when we perform
them laparoscopically.
So we're making little quarterinch to half inch incisions in
the dog, two or three incisionsin total, so very similar to
what they would do in people.
When you're talking about yourbelly button surgery that they
(17:37):
go through your belly button totake something out Well, that's
what we're doing in the dogs,and so we're able to remove the
ovaries.
If we try to take out everythingthat way, it's a bit more
complicated because the uterusis a much more complicated
structure to take out.
But we just take the ovariesout and then those animals
recover very quickly, and sothey have less pain, they have
(18:00):
less swelling, they have lessrisk of major complications and
there's no difference in therisk of uterine infection for
dogs that just have theirovaries out versus dogs that
have their ovaries and most oftheir uterus taken out, and so
the benefit of it is a fasterrecovery.
If someone is doing an opensurgery, then it doesn't really
(18:22):
make much of a difference, andit's actually sometimes a little
easier to take out the uterusalong with it, because the
uterus acts as a very handyhandle for the surgeon,
something to grab a hold of whenyou have a good opening, and so
most of the time we're takingeverything out.
But clinically long term itdoesn't make a difference
whether you just take theovaries or you take the ovaries
(18:44):
and the uterus.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So it's just, it's an easier, it's a quicker, more
efficient surgery for the dog.
Essentially, If you're doing itlaparoscopically.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
If you're doing it laparoscopically, so that would
be the benefit.
And so we don't do a lot ofsmall breed laparoscopic
surgeries but a lot of largebreed laparoscopic surgeries.
And so it'd be the differencebetween cutting yourself shaving
three times, versus somebodyopening up your abdomen to take
out your appendix One is goingto hurt a lot more and take a
(19:17):
lot longer to heal, and sothat's the benefit of it.
And so we'll do say, say, weget Labrador Retrievers or Great
Danes, we'll take out theovaries laparoscopically and
we'll also tack their stomach totheir body wall so they don't
get a stomach torsion later inlife.
And so it's the combination ofthose two somewhat large
surgeries for a big dog wherethey can go home the same day
(19:40):
because it doesn't hurt verymuch.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Wow, is that what?
That's what bloat is correct.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
When they're tummy twists.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Right, that's sort of the layman's term for it.
It's really bloat.
Really is just that it getsbigger and the torsion is where,
or the volgulous GDV it'scalled, is where it actually
slips on itself and cuts off itsblood.
So that can be quite deadly.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
We had a.
We had one of our standardpoodles growing up, had that, I
think, maybe twice.
I could be mistaken, I don'tknow if they can have it twice,
but that would be lovely if youcan, if that's something that
you can address now withwhispering what's being a
neutering right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
So at the same time.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You can go in and do that, because I do.
Yeah, that was very scary whenthat happened.
He was not happy.
It was very scary.
Yes, yeah, I remember itspecifically my next one.
You just you jumped in andmentioned something about
smaller breed dogs and I wasgoing to ask if there's a
difference in approach for thisor any sort of difference
(20:46):
between if you have a tiny dogversus a large dog in the health
benefits or anything in thatregard they're going to be more
large breed dogs that have jointissues if there are spader
frustrated too early, and thatis much less common in small
breed dogs.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And so I think when we're thinking about the timing,
although there are a few fewlittle facts where small breed
dog can be affected, in generalit's going to be the large breed
dogs that we really have tothink about, the timing of the
space we're going to do them,the timing of the castrations,
and I think that's such animportant topic.
(21:28):
I think of the papers that areout there if you castrate a male
golden retriever before it'ssix months of age, it has an 18%
risk of joint disease in therest of its life.
If you castrate a spay a very,a very act of maze or a very
(21:51):
hysterectomy, but spay a femalegolden retriever at less than
six months of age, there's a 25%risk of joint disease the rest
of its life.
So now you have to think aboutthose cost, risks, benefits of
wow, if I neuter it before sixmonths of age, I don't have to
(22:12):
worry as much about memorytumors, I don't have to worry as
much about them going into heatand having to take care of my
light colored carpets and allthat, but there's one in the
hands that'll joint disease inthe rest of its life and that
can be terribly debilitating.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's because I mean clarify
for me.
So the hormones Help with thejoint development, or so what we
?
Why does that affect jointdisease?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
for those of us who have no idea, good question and
the bottom line is we're notreally sure.
I have some theories about it,but if you, if you castrate or
spay them at a young age, thenwhat may happen is you have a
disproportionate development ofmuscle and bone and If their
(23:02):
growth plates are not closing ifyou think about the old stories
of the castratos, the malechildren who were neutered, I
guess that a young age, thatwould be great singers.
They were very tall, and so ifyou need certain hormones to
close down those growth platesand those bones are actually
(23:23):
growing much faster and there'sa disproportion in the way
they're growing, then maybe whatit does is it alters the shape
of the joints.
That's one possibility.
And for some of those dogs italso alters their risk of cancer
.
And so for a rock wiler, if arock wiler is Neutered before
(23:46):
it's six months of age, it has a14 percent risk of of bone
cancer, malignant bone cancer,with a 95% mortality rate
eventually, whereas if you leaveit intact for two years the
risk is 7%.
So you're cutting the risk offatal bone cancer in half by
(24:11):
delaying that surgery.
Okay, and in that dog, if thatspecific breed, when we look at
the research, if you delay theirneuter till two years of age,
there's no risk, no differencein risk in mammary tumors.
And so that's where, with eachbreed, we have to think about
(24:32):
what are the cost, risk,benefits of Leaving them intact
versus neutering them.
And in a rot wiler, they shouldbe left intact for two years,
okay, okay, same with the GermanShepherd should be left intact
for at least 13 months.
Golden retrievers Should beleft intact for at least 13
(24:53):
months.
Labrador's probably left intactfor at least 13 months.
Which means if you're a breederor you're a veterinarian or
you're an animal caretaker, youhave to know how to deal with
intact animals.
So we're back to that behaviorissue.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yep, it's your job to you know, do the work and do
the research and do everythingyou can to Assist and help,
which is the point of thispodcast.
How can we be better companionsfor our dogs?
So to so and I was goldenretrievers tend to have bone
cancer too.
(25:29):
In my experience that they haveit tends to.
I always thought that there wasa correlation between Spang, or
it's being a neutering, andgolden retrievers.
You didn't mention the goldenretriever in that way.
Is that is that?
Is there connection there?
I know I've had clients whohave, you know, waited because
of the bone cancer issue inGolden's.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I think that that's not been proven to be
specifically.
Okay, sir, but when we look atcancer in general, if you, if
you, spay Golden retrieverfemale at less than six months
of age, their risk of cancer isabout 25% as well, and that's
all.
Cancer is fulmin, leukemia andthose types of things.
So one and a chance of gettingcancer.
(26:10):
And so when you balance thatagainst, well, if I spayed
before six months of age,they'll be less likely to get
mammary cancer, but if they'remore likely to get all other
cancers, then maybe we betterwait until they're a year of age
.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Right.
Is there a time, a time whereit's too late to spay or neuter
your pet All?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
right, I think.
I think it depends on whatyou're trying to get out of this
spay or the neuter.
If you're trying to prevent anInfected uterus of hyalumetra,
it's never too late.
If you're trying to treat anenlarged prostate or Remove a
cancerous testicle, it's nevertoo late.
But if you are trying to seethe benefits of reducing mammary
(26:52):
cancer, then after, dependingon the breed, probably after two
to four years, really not goingto see much reduction in
mammary cancer development.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Okay, okay.
So what are veterinarians nowrecommending?
They're recommending justthey're recommending per breed,
really to look at the specificindividual dog.
Or is there still like blanketrecommendations kind of across
the board right now?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I don't think that they can as yet make
recommendations per breedbecause unfortunately there's
nobody that's gone through andreally Really looked at these
papers, the the one paper fromUC Davis.
They have pages and pages andpages of data to put together to
(27:42):
try and figure out that costversus the benefit.
And so I think in general, alot of Younger veterinarians are
saying it'd be better if youwaited when you've got a large
breed dog.
No, that's a generalrecommendation.
There's been no benefit ingreat gains to changing the type
(28:03):
of neutering.
So it really is very breedrelated, but I don't think
veterinarians have enough timeto go through all the Hundreds
of breeds that are available forpeople to own.
This is you do this or youshouldn't do this, in general
right and see the benefit ofreducing joint disease.
It's usually the large breeddogs who are continuing to grow
(28:23):
beyond Six months of age and agrowing very fast and growing
very, very large.
And so if you were to make thatrecommendation, even though it
wouldn't benefit a great dainerand Irish wolf hound and it
probably isn't going to hurt,except that the owner is going
to have to figure out how tokeep their corpus clean, but
right, and then in most smallbreed dogs.
(28:45):
Most of them aren't affected bythe age of their neutering in
terms of neutering them tooyoung, but there are a few like
certain Sizes of poodles and Ican't remember I'd have to look
at the article to see if it wasminiature or toy.
Right, it does affect the thejoint development in those I
(29:07):
think okay, in corgis that areneutered before six months of
age, they're at a much higherrisk for disc disease.
Now, that's not really a smallbreed dog, but the the age of
neutering doesn't affect discdisease and toxins.
So there's so many littlelittle interesting here that I
think the owners are gonna needto do some research Because I
(29:28):
don't think most veterinariansin practice have the time Right.
Another important thing for theowners to know is that if they
delay either ovariohysterectomyor castration, but particularly
ovariohysterectomy to when thedog is an adult number one, it
(29:50):
should cost more.
You have more supplies that youneed.
You have more anesthetic thatyou have to pay for.
The pain relievers are going tocost more because it's going to
be a larger volume.
You're going to need moresuture.
It's going to take more timefor the surgery.
The incision needs to be biggerbecause if we try to make the
same small incisions, there's amuch greater risk of
(30:12):
complications.
So owners have to be aware thatif they want the benefits of
delaying ovariohysterectomy orcastration, they need to pay for
it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Right Interesting, and this might not be a question
for you, but I'm going to askit anyway because I think in
some states I know in like thecity of Los Angeles they're
really trying to get a blanketlike mandatory spay and neuter
your pet, just because we havesuch an overpopulation issue
right now.
How would that, if you havelike a blanket law about spaying
(30:50):
, neutering your pet, how wouldthese, how would we be able to
do that with all of thesespecific guidelines when it
comes to the health and wellnessof our pets at different ages,
at different breeds and whatnot?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I think that that would have to be something that
pet owners and veterinarianswould have to discuss with the
city or the county or the state,because I am sure that they
have to make somerecommendations for breeders If
they are they planning on nothaving any breeders in their
state at all.
(31:30):
If they have a breeder, thenwhat are they going to do about
that?
And personally, if I owned aRottweiler and I did not want to
get want to have it spayed orneutered before it was at least
a year of age, then I would thatwould be making a lot of noise
there at the city if they weregoing to vote me to spay or
neuter because I think that forthe health of the animal it's
(31:52):
very important.
On the other hand, I don'tthink that we should be putting
any limitations on animalshelters as far as when they
spay or neuter, becauserealistically, the pet
overpopulation issue may be agreater health problem than what
those dogs are going to sufferlater on.
If we have all these animalsrunning loose and we have them
(32:14):
uncared for and starving and nothaving parasites treated and
things like that, it's not verygood for the pet itself and so I
don't think we can putregulations on animal shelters
to not spay or neuter.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
Maybe that is more accuratelywhat they're, what they're
trying to pass.
I haven't looked 100% into it,but I know that there is
conversation right now becausewe have to do something, because
it's it's really tough outthere for the shelter animals in
the strays.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
And there are animals that are being turned into the
shelter right now.
So do you have anything elsethat you want to add for pet
parents who are thinking about,or think have a new pup and are
thinking about weighing the prosand cons of spaying and
neutering their dog?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think that an important thing is if you are a
new pet owner.
The internet can be a blessingand a danger, so you would like
to find some reliable siteswhere you can learn more about
the animals your breed or yourbreed cross.
If you have an idea that thisis a cross of a couple of things
, learn more about it.
(33:21):
Learn more about it in terms ofwhat the personality is
supposed to be like and theconditions that those animals
can suffer.
That would be the number onething that you can do, because
there are some things that youcan do in an early age for some
of these pets, and it doesn'thave to be related to spaying or
neutering.
For instance, all of thesepeople who are getting French
(33:44):
Bulldogs.
Okay Right, all right.
Number one if you get a FrenchBulldog, you need pet insurance
because you will have veryexpensive bills.
There are too many issues thatthese dogs suffer from.
Number two if you can treatsome of these issues early and
the nostrils are one big thingis that if those puppies are
(34:05):
born with small nostrils, thatcan be treated as a very young
puppy.
You may prevent issues in thefuture.
And then, number three, ifthere are things that you can do
to decrease the risk ofproblems like can I delay the
spay or castration in myretriever, my German Shepherd?
(34:25):
Now you need to inform yourselfon what does it take to have an
intact dog of that breed andyou need to prepare for it.
You can't have a three footfence, you need to have a six
foot fence.
Yeah, you have to have a sixfoot fence.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
That's not going to be there, yeah, I had an intact
German Shepherd that I cared forand he would jump his fence
every time and run down thestreet blocks away to find this
other German Shepherd female andhe would sit outside her gate.
I kept finding him down there.
(35:02):
It was really funny.
It wasn't funny that he keptjumping and running around, but
it was funny that he wentstraight towards this gorgeous
German Shepherd female down thestreet.
Yeah, yes, good taste.
Yeah, good taste.
So, yeah, well, thank you somuch.
This was really wonderful and Ireally appreciate you taking
the time to chat with me.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Sid, I appreciate having the time to talk about
this.
I think it's a really importanttopic and we need more
information out there.
We need more owners to knowabout it Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Thank you, dr Tobias.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Beru
Podcast, as always, if youenjoyed the episode, please
don't forget to rate and followus wherever you listen to
podcasts and you can also followus on Instagram at Beru Podcast
, and I would love to hear fromyou.
(35:55):
So if you have a story ofcanine companionship that you'd
like to share with me, you havea question or even a comment,
please feel free to reach outcharlotteatheberucom.
All right, you guys, see younext time.
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years and, while I've learned alot in my career, I definitely
don't know at all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people and I learn newthings from them all the time.
Hi you guys.
(00:43):
Thank you so much for joiningme for this episode of the Baroo
Podcast.
In today's chat I talk withrenowned veterinarian Dr Karen
Tobias.
We chat about spaying andneutering our pets, the health
benefits, the side effects andthe age and breed specific
considerations that can helpdetermine the best time to
schedule the procedure.
I do want to mention andclarify something I think I
(01:04):
bring up around the 30 minutemark.
I bring up the push formandatory spay and neuter laws
in the city of Los Angeles and Icompletely misspoke.
We have had mandatory spay andneuter laws in Los Angeles for
quite some time.
The laws require that cats anddogs over four months of age be
spayed or neutered and it doesprovide for some specific
(01:25):
exemptions.
The law is really aimed athumanely reducing the number of
pets that are abandoned andeuthanized each year, and what
they are pushing for now is forthis law to actually be enforced
, this law that has been aroundfor quite some time.
They're hoping it can beenforced to help with the
overpopulation crisis that weare seeing right now in our city
(01:46):
and county shelters and,unfortunately, the rate of
euthanasia that is happeningsimply because they don't have
any more space in the shelters.
We only touched on this briefly,but I just wanted to clarify,
and this is a really importantconversation, so let's jump into
the chat.
Well, first of all, thank youso much for jumping on and
(02:14):
chatting with me.
We are going to talk aboutspaying and neutering our pets
and clear up some of themisinformation around it, and
talk about the latest scienceand the latest research in
regards to spaying and neuteringour pets, and I would love it
if you would introduce yourselfto my listeners.
You have many, manyqualifications, too many for me
(02:36):
to even keep track of, so I'lllet you do the honors.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, I'm Dr Karen Tobias and I am a professor at
the University of Tennessee, theCollege of Veterinary Medicine,
and I've been here at UT forabout 23 years and I've had a
long career before then, and Iguess what I'm specifically
known for is several textbooksthat I've written or edited, or
(03:02):
both, that provide a lot ofinformation about surgery in
dogs and cats.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, so how did you get start?
Can we briefly talk about howyou got started in veterinary
medicine?
I love to hear a little bitabout people's backgrounds.
I love what their inspirationwas.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, I graduated from University of Illinois
College of Veterinary Medicineand initially when I went to
Southern Illinois University Iwanted to be a forest ranger and
ride around the course in thewoods and and sounds great
Builder and all that kind ofstuff.
And when I went into forestry Ifound out 95% of the jobs were
(03:41):
desk jobs.
So I said, well, I'm just goingto be a veterinarian and then
I'll go ahead and be a forestranger.
Yeah, I found out it wasn'tquite that simple, but anyway, I
got into veterinary medicineand I absolutely loved it and
turned out that I was good withmy hands and so I went on and
did an internship at Purdue anda residency in a master's at
(04:02):
Ohio State and then clinical,clinical and structure ship in
Georgia and then I taught atWashington State University.
So it's been a lot of places inthe country.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Wow, I would love it if I feel like there's a lot of
misinformation out there aboutspaying and neutering your pet
and a lot of confusinginformation out there, so I was
hoping we could just jump in andtalk about that.
When I adopted my dog Chance,he was around they said around
10 months old, and I didn't haveto think about it at all.
(04:34):
He came to me neutered.
They did that.
That's part of part of whatthey do and I think it's.
I think it's mandatory with alot of rescues in many different
states to only be able to adoptout dogs that have been spayed
or neutered.
So I didn't think about that atall.
But as I've had this businessfor I've had a dog care business
for upwards of God, I thinkit's over 15 years now it's a.
(04:58):
It's a conflicting issue for alot of my clients when they get
a new dog.
Some don't want to spay orneuter their dog at all because
they feel A sorry for the dogsomehow or are worried about the
health benefits with, or thehealth issues that could come
with, spaying or neutering theirpet and some want to do it like
right away, like as soon asthey possibly can, like I don't
(05:18):
want to deal with this.
When's the earliest that I cando this?
Let's just get this over with.
So first I would like to justcover some really basic
information what is spaying andneutering and why is it
important and Right?
Yeah, we'll just start withthat, all right.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, I think traditionally a spay has
included removal of the ovariesand removal of most of the
uterus, and that's beensomething that's been promoted
for a very long time in theUnited States, and there have
been many reasons why it's beenpromoted.
One is that it's easier forowners to manage Sometimes very
(05:57):
hard for owners to deal with afemale dog that's in heat, and
so not only do they have toworry about whatever mess
happens in their house, but theyhave to worry about protecting
that animal from becomingpregnant, and so that does take
a lot of work, and so mostanimals or most owners, I would
say do it as a convenient factoris to try and take care of
(06:20):
those Got it.
Another reason why it's beentraditional to spay animals is
this 1940s to 1960s there was alot of research done that looked
at mammary cancer, mammarytumors in dogs, and found out
that if you remove that hormonalsource before those dogs are
(06:41):
six months of age, it willdramatically reduce the risk of
mammary cancer.
And so those were the two mainbenefits that were described for
spaying, for neutering.
I think the main benefit wasnot necessarily the fact that
you prevent the female dogs fromgetting impregnated.
It seems like the males don'treally care about that.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I think that's a cross the board.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I think the bigger thing was trying to control some
of those male behaviors.
And so if you have an animalthat's getting aggressive, if
you have an animal that'shumping your leg, a lot of those
types of things you might hopewould be decreased if you
castrate those animals, and thenmost intact male dogs are going
(07:31):
to get an enlarged prostate.
That's a problem with people aswell as dogs, and so if you're
having clinical signs from thatin your dogs, where they're
straining to defecate andthey've got abdominal discomfort
and maybe they even get aninfection, then castration is
going to take care of that.
So that's been the traditionalreason for castrating, and in
(07:52):
castration, most of the timewhat that means is actually
removing the testicles fully,and so you're not leaving
anything there.
You're not leaving any malehormones there at all.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Okay, so is that true that if you remove?
I might be jumping around a bithere, but if you, I've heard
mixed things about removing,like if you neuter a dog, that
it how it affects their level ofaggression or reactivity.
I've been told by some that itcan help that an intact dogs
tend to be calmer than dogs whohave had that hormone removed.
(08:29):
Do we want to address that?
So?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I think there are a lot of behavioral studies that
have come out recently and thatare still ongoing to look at the
effects of castration andovarohysterectomy, and certainly
if you have some problems withinteraction between dogs and you
have an intact male dog, youmay remove some of that activity
(08:53):
.
You know you got to get rid ofsome of the hormonally related
activity.
Whether or not it will changeaggression towards humans just
depends on the inciting factor.
If it's hormonally related,then yes, that would decrease
the aggression.
But if it is the behaviorthat's not associated with
hormones, those types of thingswon't change at all.
(09:15):
And so I think we do have thisidea that that castrating or
spaying is going to cause theseanimals to calm down.
But realistically, when youlook at what happens in Europe,
most people in Europe don't jumptoward ovarohysterectomy or
castration.
They learn how to manage theiranimals intact, and those
(09:36):
animals are pretty darn wellbehaved when you see them in the
pubs in Ireland and stuff likethat, and so I think part of it
is an issue with owners.
We owners in the United Statesseem to be looking for easy
answers.
Whether it's behavior orwhether it's managing a dog and
heat, we're always looking forthe quickest, easiest solution,
instead of really thinking aboutwhat are other things we could
(09:58):
potentially be doing.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Right, like working on socialization and proper diet
and all the things that willhelp our dogs.
So and I've also heard that inyou know that other dogs who are
neutered respond differently todogs who are intact.
(10:23):
So that may be where, becausethey are smelling those hormones
that are different to them,things that they may not, that
just smells different than otherdogs, right, so they may have.
I don't know if that's true,but they may have a reaction to
or reactivity towards a dog thatis unneutered versus a dog that
(10:43):
is neutered.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I don't know whether there have been any studies on
that in the United States,because my emphasis isn't as
behavior as much, but I cancertainly tell you that my own
dog who spayed I got her in ananalgesal disorder as well, so
she came spayed.
When I got her she had adifferent reaction to other dogs
.
Now that she's got some olderdog hormonal problems, dogs
(11:08):
react differently to her, so Icould see why that would change.
But again, I don't know whetherthis would also be something
related to where you're from,because if all European dogs are
mostly intact, you're probablyused to smelling those types of
pheromones if you're another dog, whereas here in the United
States, if they're mostlyneutered, maybe that does cause
(11:29):
a difference in their behavior.
Hmm, interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I'll have to look into that a little bit more.
So what are the benefits ofspaying other than the pet
population, which is not whatwe're talking about today, which
is a big issue in the UnitedStates the overpopulation?
What are some of the healthbenefits of spaying your pets
versus health benefits ofneutering your pets and what are
(11:57):
some of the?
We've talked a little bit aboutwhat can happen when you don't
spay or neuter your pet.
Some of the issues that comewhat are the benefits of spaying
and neutering your pet and doesit vary between breed?
Does it vary between dog or age?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I think, when we're looking at the benefits of
removing the ovaries and that'san important thing for people to
know is that as long as youtake the ovaries out, you don't
have to take the uterus out.
And so while in general wethink of spay as being ovaries
and most of the uterus, a lot ofpeople just take the ovaries
out.
And if we do itlaparoscopically, which is an
(12:30):
even faster recovery for largedogs particularly, we just take
the ovaries out.
So besides the mammary cancerand that's the number one thing,
mammary cancer, reduction inthe risk of mammary cancer
Another thing would be thatpyometras, infected uterus, is
very, very common as certainbreeds get older, and that is a
(12:51):
breed related percentage.
So there was one group ofbeagles where 60 or 70% of them
got pyometra and infected uteruswhen they got old.
If you have one of those breeds, I guess, that are going to be
predisposed to pyometra, thendoing an ovariohysterectomy will
(13:11):
prevent that risk, and pyometracan be fatal, and so maybe that
might be another indication forit If you had a Doberman with
von Willebrand's disease, and sothe animal has trouble clotting
its blood, having it go into aheat cycle every six months to a
year, depending on howfrequently it is for your dog
(13:33):
could also be dangerous, and sofor certain dogs that have
problems with blood clotting asa genital issue, as a breed
related issue, those animalsshould have an ovarioctomy
because we don't want them goingthrough the heat cycle.
There have been some paperswhere certain dogs with epilepsy
(13:54):
are better controlled ifthey're spayed and certain dogs
with diabetes are bettercontrolled if they're spayed,
and so those might be specificissues that aren't necessarily
related to a breed, but arerelated to an older animal
disease that indicate this is agood idea, just in case, because
(14:16):
we don't want to have to bedealing with more infections or
we want to be able to reduce theseizures.
It's not a general thing,though.
I don't think every Australianshepherd owner is going to
benefit from taking their dogout for an ovarioctomy, because
I don't know if anything makes adifference in Australian
shepherds with seizures In termsof the male dogs.
(14:37):
Besides prostatic enlargement,prostatic infections can happen.
As they get the prostaticenlargement, they'll get cysts
in their prostates and thenthose can get infected, and so
that risk would be reduced.
And then testicular tumors arevery, very common in older dogs.
(14:59):
However, most of the timethey're not malignant tumors,
but when they are malignanttumors, their bone marrow can
get suppressed, and if theirbone marrow gets suppressed, it
may not come back, and so evenif we castrate them, they may
still have trouble making whitecells or making red cells.
It's such a very, very lowpercentage that the important
(15:21):
thing that we have to thinkabout is what's the risk of this
versus the benefit of this, andthat is definitely a
breed-related decision.
What breeds you have shouldaffect whether or not you neuter
, and it should affect when youneuter.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Okay, and what about people who have like mixed up
rescue dogs?
Then nobody knows.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I think our Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
A lot of these studies are not complete.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So, for instance, there's a big study out of UC
Davis that was.
It was a fantastic study atLixxet, I think 33 different
breeds, it's probably the bestbroad spectrum study that we
have.
But unfortunately they reallywere only like able to follow
dogs out to about eight years ofage and if a lot of the cancer
happens after that age then it'snot going to give you the most
(16:17):
information possible.
But in that study they listedthe effects that they would see
in those 33 breeds.
And then there have been somevery good studies on golden
retrievers, labrador retrievers,german cheffords and rock
filers.
I would say that those are thefour breeds that have been
studied the most in terms ofthings like joint disease and
(16:40):
when we should neuter based onthat.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
You mentioned removing just the ovaries.
Is that something that many,most veterinarians offer now, or
is that a new, something that'snew?
Because I did have a client askme if I knew of anyone who just
removed the ovaries, anyveterinarians that just removed
(17:02):
the ovaries, and I couldn't saythat I did.
So that was something that wasnew to me and I didn't know that
that was something that'soffered now, and is it healthier
to do that versus taking thewhole shebang for technical
terms?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
A biggest benefit of ovarioectomy is when we perform
them laparoscopically.
So we're making little quarterinch to half inch incisions in
the dog, two or three incisionsin total, so very similar to
what they would do in people.
When you're talking about yourbelly button surgery that they
(17:37):
go through your belly button totake something out Well, that's
what we're doing in the dogs,and so we're able to remove the
ovaries.
If we try to take out everythingthat way, it's a bit more
complicated because the uterusis a much more complicated
structure to take out.
But we just take the ovariesout and then those animals
recover very quickly, and sothey have less pain, they have
(18:00):
less swelling, they have lessrisk of major complications and
there's no difference in therisk of uterine infection for
dogs that just have theirovaries out versus dogs that
have their ovaries and most oftheir uterus taken out, and so
the benefit of it is a fasterrecovery.
If someone is doing an opensurgery, then it doesn't really
(18:22):
make much of a difference, andit's actually sometimes a little
easier to take out the uterusalong with it, because the
uterus acts as a very handyhandle for the surgeon,
something to grab a hold of whenyou have a good opening, and so
most of the time we're takingeverything out.
But clinically long term itdoesn't make a difference
whether you just take theovaries or you take the ovaries
(18:44):
and the uterus.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So it's just, it's an easier, it's a quicker, more
efficient surgery for the dog.
Essentially, If you're doing itlaparoscopically.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
If you're doing it laparoscopically, so that would
be the benefit.
And so we don't do a lot ofsmall breed laparoscopic
surgeries but a lot of largebreed laparoscopic surgeries.
And so it'd be the differencebetween cutting yourself shaving
three times, versus somebodyopening up your abdomen to take
out your appendix One is goingto hurt a lot more and take a
(19:17):
lot longer to heal, and sothat's the benefit of it.
And so we'll do say, say, weget Labrador Retrievers or Great
Danes, we'll take out theovaries laparoscopically and
we'll also tack their stomach totheir body wall so they don't
get a stomach torsion later inlife.
And so it's the combination ofthose two somewhat large
surgeries for a big dog wherethey can go home the same day
(19:40):
because it doesn't hurt verymuch.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Wow, is that what?
That's what bloat is correct.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
When they're tummy twists.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Right, that's sort of the layman's term for it.
It's really bloat.
Really is just that it getsbigger and the torsion is where,
or the volgulous GDV it'scalled, is where it actually
slips on itself and cuts off itsblood.
So that can be quite deadly.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
We had a.
We had one of our standardpoodles growing up, had that, I
think, maybe twice.
I could be mistaken, I don'tknow if they can have it twice,
but that would be lovely if youcan, if that's something that
you can address now withwhispering what's being a
neutering right.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
So at the same time.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
You can go in and do that, because I do.
Yeah, that was very scary whenthat happened.
He was not happy.
It was very scary.
Yes, yeah, I remember itspecifically my next one.
You just you jumped in andmentioned something about
smaller breed dogs and I wasgoing to ask if there's a
difference in approach for thisor any sort of difference
(20:46):
between if you have a tiny dogversus a large dog in the health
benefits or anything in thatregard they're going to be more
large breed dogs that have jointissues if there are spader
frustrated too early, and thatis much less common in small
breed dogs.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And so I think when we're thinking about the timing,
although there are a few fewlittle facts where small breed
dog can be affected, in generalit's going to be the large breed
dogs that we really have tothink about, the timing of the
space we're going to do them,the timing of the castrations,
and I think that's such animportant topic.
(21:28):
I think of the papers that areout there if you castrate a male
golden retriever before it'ssix months of age, it has an 18%
risk of joint disease in therest of its life.
If you castrate a spay a very,a very act of maze or a very
(21:51):
hysterectomy, but spay a femalegolden retriever at less than
six months of age, there's a 25%risk of joint disease the rest
of its life.
So now you have to think aboutthose cost, risks, benefits of
wow, if I neuter it before sixmonths of age, I don't have to
(22:12):
worry as much about memorytumors, I don't have to worry as
much about them going into heatand having to take care of my
light colored carpets and allthat, but there's one in the
hands that'll joint disease inthe rest of its life and that
can be terribly debilitating.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's because I mean clarify
for me.
So the hormones Help with thejoint development, or so what we
?
Why does that affect jointdisease?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
for those of us who have no idea, good question and
the bottom line is we're notreally sure.
I have some theories about it,but if you, if you castrate or
spay them at a young age, thenwhat may happen is you have a
disproportionate development ofmuscle and bone and If their
(23:02):
growth plates are not closing ifyou think about the old stories
of the castratos, the malechildren who were neutered, I
guess that a young age, thatwould be great singers.
They were very tall, and so ifyou need certain hormones to
close down those growth platesand those bones are actually
(23:23):
growing much faster and there'sa disproportion in the way
they're growing, then maybe whatit does is it alters the shape
of the joints.
That's one possibility.
And for some of those dogs italso alters their risk of cancer
.
And so for a rock wiler, if arock wiler is Neutered before
(23:46):
it's six months of age, it has a14 percent risk of of bone
cancer, malignant bone cancer,with a 95% mortality rate
eventually, whereas if you leaveit intact for two years the
risk is 7%.
So you're cutting the risk offatal bone cancer in half by
(24:11):
delaying that surgery.
Okay, and in that dog, if thatspecific breed, when we look at
the research, if you delay theirneuter till two years of age,
there's no risk, no differencein risk in mammary tumors.
And so that's where, with eachbreed, we have to think about
(24:32):
what are the cost, risk,benefits of Leaving them intact
versus neutering them.
And in a rot wiler, they shouldbe left intact for two years,
okay, okay, same with the GermanShepherd should be left intact
for at least 13 months.
Golden retrievers Should beleft intact for at least 13
(24:53):
months.
Labrador's probably left intactfor at least 13 months.
Which means if you're a breederor you're a veterinarian or
you're an animal caretaker, youhave to know how to deal with
intact animals.
So we're back to that behaviorissue.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yep, it's your job to you know, do the work and do
the research and do everythingyou can to Assist and help,
which is the point of thispodcast.
How can we be better companionsfor our dogs?
So to so and I was goldenretrievers tend to have bone
cancer too.
(25:29):
In my experience that they haveit tends to.
I always thought that there wasa correlation between Spang, or
it's being a neutering, andgolden retrievers.
You didn't mention the goldenretriever in that way.
Is that is that?
Is there connection there?
I know I've had clients whohave, you know, waited because
of the bone cancer issue inGolden's.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I think that that's not been proven to be
specifically.
Okay, sir, but when we look atcancer in general, if you, if
you, spay Golden retrieverfemale at less than six months
of age, their risk of cancer isabout 25% as well, and that's
all.
Cancer is fulmin, leukemia andthose types of things.
So one and a chance of gettingcancer.
(26:10):
And so when you balance thatagainst, well, if I spayed
before six months of age,they'll be less likely to get
mammary cancer, but if they'remore likely to get all other
cancers, then maybe we betterwait until they're a year of age
.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Right.
Is there a time, a time whereit's too late to spay or neuter
your pet All?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
right, I think.
I think it depends on whatyou're trying to get out of this
spay or the neuter.
If you're trying to prevent anInfected uterus of hyalumetra,
it's never too late.
If you're trying to treat anenlarged prostate or Remove a
cancerous testicle, it's nevertoo late.
But if you are trying to seethe benefits of reducing mammary
(26:52):
cancer, then after, dependingon the breed, probably after two
to four years, really not goingto see much reduction in
mammary cancer development.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Okay, okay.
So what are veterinarians nowrecommending?
They're recommending justthey're recommending per breed,
really to look at the specificindividual dog.
Or is there still like blanketrecommendations kind of across
the board right now?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I don't think that they can as yet make
recommendations per breedbecause unfortunately there's
nobody that's gone through andreally Really looked at these
papers, the the one paper fromUC Davis.
They have pages and pages andpages of data to put together to
(27:42):
try and figure out that costversus the benefit.
And so I think in general, alot of Younger veterinarians are
saying it'd be better if youwaited when you've got a large
breed dog.
No, that's a generalrecommendation.
There's been no benefit ingreat gains to changing the type
(28:03):
of neutering.
So it really is very breedrelated, but I don't think
veterinarians have enough timeto go through all the Hundreds
of breeds that are available forpeople to own.
This is you do this or youshouldn't do this, in general
right and see the benefit ofreducing joint disease.
It's usually the large breeddogs who are continuing to grow
(28:23):
beyond Six months of age and agrowing very fast and growing
very, very large.
And so if you were to make thatrecommendation, even though it
wouldn't benefit a great dainerand Irish wolf hound and it
probably isn't going to hurt,except that the owner is going
to have to figure out how tokeep their corpus clean, but
right, and then in most smallbreed dogs.
(28:45):
Most of them aren't affected bythe age of their neutering in
terms of neutering them tooyoung, but there are a few like
certain Sizes of poodles and Ican't remember I'd have to look
at the article to see if it wasminiature or toy.
Right, it does affect the thejoint development in those I
(29:07):
think okay, in corgis that areneutered before six months of
age, they're at a much higherrisk for disc disease.
Now, that's not really a smallbreed dog, but the the age of
neutering doesn't affect discdisease and toxins.
So there's so many littlelittle interesting here that I
think the owners are gonna needto do some research Because I
(29:28):
don't think most veterinariansin practice have the time Right.
Another important thing for theowners to know is that if they
delay either ovariohysterectomyor castration, but particularly
ovariohysterectomy to when thedog is an adult number one, it
(29:50):
should cost more.
You have more supplies that youneed.
You have more anesthetic thatyou have to pay for.
The pain relievers are going tocost more because it's going to
be a larger volume.
You're going to need moresuture.
It's going to take more timefor the surgery.
The incision needs to be biggerbecause if we try to make the
same small incisions, there's amuch greater risk of
(30:12):
complications.
So owners have to be aware thatif they want the benefits of
delaying ovariohysterectomy orcastration, they need to pay for
it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Right Interesting, and this might not be a question
for you, but I'm going to askit anyway because I think in
some states I know in like thecity of Los Angeles they're
really trying to get a blanketlike mandatory spay and neuter
your pet, just because we havesuch an overpopulation issue
right now.
How would that, if you havelike a blanket law about spaying
(30:50):
, neutering your pet, how wouldthese, how would we be able to
do that with all of thesespecific guidelines when it
comes to the health and wellnessof our pets at different ages,
at different breeds and whatnot?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
I think that that would have to be something that
pet owners and veterinarianswould have to discuss with the
city or the county or the state,because I am sure that they
have to make somerecommendations for breeders If
they are they planning on nothaving any breeders in their
state at all.
(31:30):
If they have a breeder, thenwhat are they going to do about
that?
And personally, if I owned aRottweiler and I did not want to
get want to have it spayed orneutered before it was at least
a year of age, then I would thatwould be making a lot of noise
there at the city if they weregoing to vote me to spay or
neuter because I think that forthe health of the animal it's
(31:52):
very important.
On the other hand, I don'tthink that we should be putting
any limitations on animalshelters as far as when they
spay or neuter, becauserealistically, the pet
overpopulation issue may be agreater health problem than what
those dogs are going to sufferlater on.
If we have all these animalsrunning loose and we have them
(32:14):
uncared for and starving and nothaving parasites treated and
things like that, it's not verygood for the pet itself and so I
don't think we can putregulations on animal shelters
to not spay or neuter.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
Maybe that is more accuratelywhat they're, what they're
trying to pass.
I haven't looked 100% into it,but I know that there is
conversation right now becausewe have to do something, because
it's it's really tough outthere for the shelter animals in
the strays.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
And there are animals that are being turned into the
shelter right now.
So do you have anything elsethat you want to add for pet
parents who are thinking about,or think have a new pup and are
thinking about weighing the prosand cons of spaying and
neutering their dog?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I think that an important thing is if you are a
new pet owner.
The internet can be a blessingand a danger, so you would like
to find some reliable siteswhere you can learn more about
the animals your breed or yourbreed cross.
If you have an idea that thisis a cross of a couple of things
, learn more about it.
(33:21):
Learn more about it in terms ofwhat the personality is
supposed to be like and theconditions that those animals
can suffer.
That would be the number onething that you can do, because
there are some things that youcan do in an early age for some
of these pets, and it doesn'thave to be related to spaying or
neutering.
For instance, all of thesepeople who are getting French
(33:44):
Bulldogs.
Okay Right, all right.
Number one if you get a FrenchBulldog, you need pet insurance
because you will have veryexpensive bills.
There are too many issues thatthese dogs suffer from.
Number two if you can treatsome of these issues early and
the nostrils are one big thingis that if those puppies are
(34:05):
born with small nostrils, thatcan be treated as a very young
puppy.
You may prevent issues in thefuture.
And then, number three, ifthere are things that you can do
to decrease the risk ofproblems like can I delay the
spay or castration in myretriever, my German Shepherd?
(34:25):
Now you need to inform yourselfon what does it take to have an
intact dog of that breed andyou need to prepare for it.
You can't have a three footfence, you need to have a six
foot fence.
Yeah, you have to have a sixfoot fence.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
That's not going to be there, yeah, I had an intact
German Shepherd that I cared forand he would jump his fence
every time and run down thestreet blocks away to find this
other German Shepherd female andhe would sit outside her gate.
I kept finding him down there.
(35:02):
It was really funny.
It wasn't funny that he keptjumping and running around, but
it was funny that he wentstraight towards this gorgeous
German Shepherd female down thestreet.
Yeah, yes, good taste.
Yeah, good taste.
So, yeah, well, thank you somuch.
This was really wonderful and Ireally appreciate you taking
the time to chat with me.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Sid, I appreciate having the time to talk about
this.
I think it's a really importanttopic and we need more
information out there.
We need more owners to knowabout it Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Thank you, dr Tobias.
Thank you so much for listeningto this episode of the Beru
Podcast, as always, if youenjoyed the episode, please
don't forget to rate and followus wherever you listen to
podcasts and you can also followus on Instagram at Beru Podcast
, and I would love to hear fromyou.
(35:55):
So if you have a story ofcanine companionship that you'd
like to share with me, you havea question or even a comment,
please feel free to reach outcharlotteatheberucom.
All right, you guys, see younext time.
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