November 14, 2023 • 55 mins
Unleash a deeper understanding of your furry friend's psyche as we navigate the misunderstood realm of canine separation anxiety with Moira Heckenleitner, a certified separation anxiety trainer and an influential member of the Chilean Association of Professional Dog Trainers. Known for her extensive experience in veterinary medicine and dog training, Moira helps us decode the signs of separation anxiety and shares invaluable strategies to help our canine companions who may struggle with this condition.
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*This podcast is for informational purposes only, even if, and regardless of whether it features the advice of veterinarians or professional dog trainers. It is not, nor is it intended to be a substitute for professional veterinary care or personalized canine behavior advice and should not be used as so. The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast author or the individual views of those participating in the podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years and, while I've learned alot in my career, I definitely
don't know at all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people and I learn newthings from them all the time.
Hi you guys.
(00:46):
Thank you so much for joiningme for this episode of the Baroo
Podcast.
Today, moira Heckenleitner joinsme to discuss separation
anxiety in our pups.
Moira is a certified separationanxiety trainer and a founding
member of the ChileanAssociation of Professional Dog
Trainers.
We discuss what separationanxiety is, what it isn't, what
(01:07):
it looks like and some ways thatwe can help support our pups
who may struggle with thiscondition.
So let's just jump into thechat, well, okay, well, we'll
just jump in.
I really appreciate you jumpingon with me.
I know that you are a certifiedseparation anxiety trainer as
well as a veterinarian, so I washoping you could jump in and
(01:30):
just tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how those
two things came to be.
If you don't, yeah yeah,definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So.
I am originally from Chile,that's why the accent.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
The accent yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I studied veterinary medicine there many years ago,
2000,.
I finished in 2007 or somethinglike that, and back then there
wasn't a lot of opportunitiesfor veterinarians, so the field
wasn't working very well, likeit wasn't very sustainable money
(02:05):
speaking, financially speaking.
So you had to get creative andI really loved behavior.
One of my dreams was to be,like you know climbing a tree in
Africa, like watching animalsbehave and like studying them.
That was my childhood.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah, it sounds great .
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But there wasn't any options for that either, right?
So I found out that you know, Icould do like a dog training
course, and I jumped into that,and so I started working as a
dog trainer.
Actually, and there wasn't alot of education about dog
training either.
There was a lot of demand forit, and so we had to really
(02:43):
educate the population, whichhas gone great, because if you
see how things have shiftedthere in 10 years, it's just
amazing, which makes me feelvery happy and that's how I
became a vet and a dog trainer.
So I actually did in practice asa clinician I haven't since
2009 or something like that andinstead I just focused on
(03:07):
behavior instead.
That's kind of the journey.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you feel like you can use some of the knowledge
that you gained in veterinarymedicine towards dealing with
animals and behavior?
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Definitely there are a lot of things that you can
kind of pick and take advantageof when you have studied
veterinary medicine.
One of them and it's a verybroad one, but is that you can
structure things in a certainway that allows you to be very
objective, which is very helpfulwhen you're dealing with
(03:44):
behavior issues, because thereare a lot of pieces that we have
to consider and sometimes theycan get away from us Like they
can keep our mind.
So, like using some of theknowledge you learn as a
veterinarian can help you withthat.
And, on the other hand,focusing on separation of sight
here right now, I startedworking exclusively with
(04:07):
separation of sight dogs in 2017and from then on, and in this
particular behavior disorder orbehavior challenge, medication
is a big thing, and not onlythat.
In many cases, you can see thatthe actual root of the problem
is medical and not evenbehavioral, because you probably
(04:30):
see your own cases as well,many cases that look like
behavior.
When you start digging deeper,you find out that there's either
a medical component affectingthings or there's actually only
a medical root that is causingthe behavior change, and so
knowing what to look for andwhen to send guardians to see
(04:55):
their vets to make sureeverything is okay in that
regard can be very, very helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Is that something that you always do?
You always send them to seetheir veterinarian, as well as
creating a protocol for behavior.
Is that part of kind of whatyou do, or are there dogs that
you're like?
No, this is totally justbehavior.
This is not.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes, I actually love to make sure that we are
approaching this in anintegrative way and that we are
all professionals, are on boardand we're working as a team.
I really love to involve eitherthey're already their
veterinarian, the one they'reworking with, or to bring
(05:39):
someone if they need somethingmore specific like a vet
behaviorist or a vetveterinarian that works in
behavior and likes behavior, sowe can all work in different
areas of the dog and help themsucceed.
So yeah, I usually tend to askat the beginning of my
consultation if you know how arethings going on?
(06:02):
When was the last time theyvisited their vet?
If that hasn't been for a while, I encourage them to do so and
I usually write a behaviorreport so I can get in touch
with them and we can startcreating a plan together.
In many cases what happens inseparation anxiety is that dogs
are already.
Either they're either alreadyon medication and you just have
(06:25):
to get in touch and make surethat everything is in the place
it has to be, or you have tostart a medication protocol and
that report and that connectionmakes a big difference because
the veterinarian can choose theright medication for that
particular case.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Right, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
We'll jump a little bit deeperinto that in a little bit, but
since we're already jumping in,I'd love to just really talk
about what separation anxiety is, what it looks like and how do
we know if our dog hasseparation anxiety.
Sometimes we mistake thesebehaviors.
(07:06):
Is that your?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
problem.
That's my dog, I'm so sorry forthe noise.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It's getting ugly.
No, it's totally mine.
I love it.
It's always appropriate.
Yeah, it's very cute.
He keeps walking back and forth.
Is that time of the day?
It's like Friday.
Oh yeah, he's like.
I'm sorry, what are you doing?
I'm like I'm going to go for awalk now.
Are you that over there?
Why are you talking to thislady?
So, anywho, very cute, so yeah.
(07:32):
So what does separation anxiety?
How does it show up in our dogs?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's a great question, and I think that,
although separation anxiety is aterm that is widely mentioned
and everybody has said it atsome point, right, I think every
dog guardian has wondered aboutit, has talked about it
Fortunately it's still prettymisunderstood and it became very
(07:59):
popular.
It was already pretty prevalentand popular, but it became even
more popular during the pandemic, when we didn't leave our dogs
alone and then we startedleaving them alone again and we
started seeing things that wedidn't like and things that
concerned us, right.
The problem is that there'ssomething bigger than separation
anxiety, let's call it that iscalled separation related
(08:22):
behaviors, and I like to thinkabout this term as an umbrella.
That includes a lot ofdifferent things, and separation
related behaviors are basicallyall the behaviors that a dog
displays when it's left alone inthe house that are undesirable
either for them, for themselvesand or for us humans, and these
(08:43):
things can be the typical thingsyou know barking, vocalizing,
destroying objects that aren'tmeant to be toys or that we
wouldn't like them to toys,eliminating pacing, among many
others.
Those are the most typical ones.
So, however, those behaviorsare non specific.
(09:04):
With what does that mean?
It means that your dog can barkfor many reasons right, it can
bark the dog can bark whenyou're around.
The dog can bark when you're notaround, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that the dog ispanicking.
Right, and the same happenswith destruction.
The same happened when sorrywith the squeaky toy.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I was waiting for him to get a toy.
He looked like he was on themove for a toy.
Okay, cute.
So apologize.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Apologize, that's totally fine.
So it's.
The same goes with elimination,for example, like a dog can
urinate in the house in a placewhere you wouldn't want to,
which doesn't necessarily meanthat the dog is panicking when
he's alone or she's alone, right.
So those are separate, relatedbehaviors and they can happen
(09:54):
due to many different causes.
The underlying cause is the onethat we want to recognize, and
that underlying cause can be,for example, that the dog has
too much energy, that the doghasn't been educated to do or
not do something.
It could be that you live in avery busy neighborhood and every
time a dog passes by with theirguardian, your dog barks
(10:17):
because your dog sees that otherdog through the window, right.
And it can also be separationanxiety.
There are other things thatcould be happening as well, such
as confinement issues, which isa big, big one, very prevalent
one, because, at least in the US, it's very common to leave dogs
in crates when left alone, andmany dogs don't like that.
(10:37):
That is what's actuallyaversive to them.
That is what's the root of theproblem, the underlying cause.
But if you leave that dog freein the house, they don't display
any of the symptoms or signs,and so it is very important to
understand or to find out whichone is the underlying cause of
this behaviors before you jumpinto what to do and how to help
(11:01):
them and answering yourquestions.
Circling back to your questions,with a long road to get there,
separation anxiety is one ofthose causes and separation
anxiety is basically the fear,the panic, the phobia of being
left alone.
For that particular dog, beingleft alone is an aversive
(11:22):
stimulus.
So they're exposed to it.
They will really try to copewith the situation, but they're
going to reach a point, at anintensity so, at a certain
duration of that absence, thatthey are not going to be able to
successfully do it anymore andat that point the situation will
become aversive and they willstart showing this overt signs
(11:44):
which won't disappear untilsomeone is back, in other words,
until this stimulus, thisabsence, is removed and the dog
is not exposed to it anymore.
And unfortunately, since thisis a phobia, which is an
irrational fear, the dog, overtime, as he's exposed to it,
isn't able to identify that thisis not a flight or fight
(12:08):
situation, that this is not athreat anymore, and instead he
continues to display a stressresponse every time he is
exposed to it.
That's why it's so importantfor us to treat it and to
implement a training protocol,instead of just letting it be
and see if it's going to go awayover time.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Is there an age where separation anxiety tends to
show up in dogs, and these arethrowing a few questions at you.
But is it different?
Your approach for dealing withit as a pup, let's say it's like
a brand new puppy and you'releaving it for the first few
times versus, like you know, anadult dog or even a senior dog,
(12:52):
because I do know senior dogscan get more anxious, as dogs
can get more anxious as they age.
So I'm just curious if there'san age where you a common age
where it comes up and if not,how do you treat it, differing
depending on the dog and age.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That's a great question, because that was
actually one of the theconceptions or the beliefs maybe
20 or 50 years ago, that thiswas a situation that used to
arise during adolescence.
But we have found out thatthat's not the case and that
there's no correlation betweenage and the onset of this
(13:33):
disorder.
It's more about something thatmight have happened in the life
of the dog that represented achange or something traumatizing
that triggered the onset ofthis situation, and then, from
then on, the dog is unable to toto successfully get out of it
unless you, you work on it.
(13:54):
And so I have puppies that have, who have always have
separation anxiety since thevery beginning.
They are right to the house,they want they have separation
anxiety.
I have had cases where the dogsstarted showing signs after a
certain situation, when theywere like two years or three
years old, and I also had dogswho are elderly, you know,
(14:17):
geriatric dogs, who starteddeveloping signs when they were
13, 10 years old.
So it's really.
There is really no like rhymeor reason, it just happens.
And in regards to your secondquestion and how you approach
this, mostly you approach it thesame.
So the main foundation of thetreatment or the protocol is the
(14:40):
same, but you will have to makesome adjustments depending on
the situation.
So, for example, with puppies,you might have a few hiccups
because you might have torestrict certain areas, and if
the dog also has confinementissues, you will have an extra
challenge there or you will haveto.
I have something I call I havecoined the term the puppy mode,
(15:03):
and so when you have a puppy andyou're working on separation
anxiety, you have to really findthe times where the puppy is in
nap mode, relax mode, becauseif you find the puppy at the
time that they are like playingaround and having fun, you're
not going to be, you're notsetting the dog up for success.
It's very hard to be successfulbecause they're never going to
relax.
(15:23):
So it really depends on thesituation with an adult or older
dog.
It might be easier because youdon't have to be worried about
the dog doing things that youdon't want to right Like it's.
In that way it's easier, but italso could be harder because
the dog might have medicalissues going on.
Certain restrictions ofmovement, you know, or even like
(15:46):
cognitive issues or challengesthat are impending are not
letting the dog succeed.
So it really depends on the dogdefinitely.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And so are there.
How do you know, as we weretalking about earlier, how do
you know if this is a case thatneeds, like, medical attention?
Or how do you know what aresome signs of just thinking of,
like the senior dogs, theelderly dogs, of the anxiety
being something that is notreally related to behavior.
(16:20):
It's related to what are someof those signs that it could be
a medical issue, versus justthey're just quote, acting out
or having you know, definitelyissues in that way.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So first, and as we were mentioning or discussing
before, I really like to makesure the dog is healthy, more so
when the onset of this behavioris very acute, if it's
something that happened likefrom that day to night, or like
in just one day.
All of a sudden the dogprevious prior to that was
(16:55):
totally fine and there wasnothing else in the environment
that suggests that there wassomething that happened to the
dog.
I would like to know if thatwas healthy, because it could be
that a medical issue triggeredit.
But it also could be that thisis not behavioral at all and
it's just the medical issue thatis causing the behavior.
(17:15):
And as you resolve that, thebehavior will naturally go away.
So that's why I really, reallymake sure that the dog we know
that the dog is healthy.
If it's a senior dog, even moreso.
I, then I get much more pushyabout suggesting strongly that
(17:37):
the dog I know I actually loveit.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It's just hard not to laugh.
It's going to down.
I hope that's a good one.
And this is seriousconversation with a little humor
attached to it.
Oh my God, I'm sorry.
What was I going to say?
No, no, so what?
Can we give an example of whatsome medical issues could
possibly be?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes, Like pain, for example.
That's a great one.
So pain, imagine, for example,when you were a kid and you were
in pain.
You first you wanted your momor your dad or whoever was the
object or for your affection.
You wanted that person with you.
You don't want to be left alone.
It's like, well, be cool.
And you were much more likeannoyed about everything.
(18:26):
Let's say someone was buildinga house beside you your house or
your window.
You were sick and you were.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
you had a headache and you didn't want to be left
alone.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And you were much more irritated about how you
were feeling, what was happeningoutside.
So any pain is potentiallyeither a cause of a behavior
change or something that ismaking it worse.
Not feeling well in generalwill be.
Of course, there are hormonalissues that could be leading to
(18:56):
changes of behavior as well, butpain is a big one that I would
totally suggest to rule outfirst as one of the most
important things.
Then, if you start diggingdeeper, there are things like
canine cognitive dysfunction,for example, and all dogs that
can be altering the dog'sbehavior.
But that's more like a rulingout situation is, like when you
(19:17):
have ruled out everything else,you decide that it might be that
, but at first I woulddefinitely rule out physical
things that could be leading tothis change.
And once in coming back to yourquestion about medication, so
once you have ruled out that thesituation isn't medical, or if
it was medical, you haveaddressed it and everything else
(19:40):
is clear and you have moretransparency, if you will, in
terms of what is working andwhat to do and you know and you
can kind of connect the dogs Inthose cases or when you reach
that point.
The way I usually think aboutbehavior medication is well.
(20:03):
I usually mention it toeverybody at first.
It's part of my script in a way,because I want to normalize it,
because there's a lot of,there's a lot of fear about
around it and there is a lot ofthoughts, strong emotions around
it and it's important tonormalize it because it might be
that your dog will need it downthe road, even if your dog
(20:24):
doesn't need it at the beginning.
And so I really have thatconversation at first.
But then things that made mereally suggest it, strongly
suggested, are when the dog hasmore than one behavior challenge
at the same time.
So if I meet a dog who not onlyhas a professional society but
also has confinement issues,productivity, noise, sensitivity
(20:48):
, fear of something else, thatis a dog that potentially could
be a very good candidate formedication, because you can see
that the dog is struggling inmany fronts, and supporting that
and allowing the dog to feelbetter and increasing the dog's
threshold to respond to thosethings will likely help his
(21:11):
quality of life and it willallow him to be successful.
So, anyway, if it's a dog whodoesn't have any challenges and
the only situation that'shappening is separation of
society, you might get away withnot using any medication at
first and see where it takes you, you know, and if it works, it
works, and if not, maybe at somepoint down the line, you will
(21:32):
have to start incorporating it.
And the other.
I usually recommend vacation andagain, I don't.
I am not the person whoprescribes it, I recommend to a
client and then I, you know, Imake the link with the
veterinarian so we can all worktogether.
But another way of, or aneither reason why I would start
(21:54):
really paying attention tovacation is if the dog isn't
consistent and we can't pointout where does that come from.
So, because the separation ofsociety, training is, is simple
but not easy and it takes a longtime and there are a lot of
hiccups down the road or alongthe way, but you usually can
(22:18):
point them out to something islike the dog didn't do well in
this setup because that ischallenging for him, or the dog
had a bad day to this and that'swhy he had this problem or this
response.
And if you can't really pointanything out and you don't know
and there's no connectionswhatsoever, it's just a chaos,
then right, it would probably bea good idea to think about
(22:42):
medications to createconsistency and have a more
transparent taste that you cananalyze better if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right, it's kind of like a baseline Exactly To
handle.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Do we think that dogs who have separation anxiety
there's like something.
Is there something in their DNA?
Is some of that hereditary fora lot of them or is it something
?
So I mean, I know it's likeusually they've experienced
something, but you know, even astraumatic as taking a puppy
away from you know their mother,you know could be whatever.
What triggers that?
(23:17):
You know panic, but or is it,yeah, or are so.
Are those dogs because they'remore, it's something in their
DNA that makes them respond tothat situation in that way?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes, yes, it makes complete sense and we do believe
so.
So we haven't we don't have thefinal answer to that, but we do
believe that there is a geneticpredisposition and that some
dogs have it and if they areexposed to certain environmental
factors, such as changes, suchas traumatizing experiences,
(23:52):
they might, those experiences orthose environmental factors
might trigger the onset ofseparation anxiety, because many
dogs are exposed to those samethings and not all of them
develop separation anxiety,right, and some dogs, as I was
mentioning before, areexperiencing it since they they
(24:12):
arrive home from, let's say, areader, let's say like they,
since they're separate fromtheir mom, or even before, dad.
And also, we have seenconnections between mom and, you
know, puppies having the samesort of challenge, or siblings
having the same sort ofchallenge.
We don't know if it's somethingthat happens in the womb or if
(24:32):
it could potentially be, youknow, hereditary.
Now I do have to say that oneof my, my thoughts about it and
I have discussed it before withKim Kim Brophy, and I think it's
a very interesting point isthat our environment has changed
very fast in the last 50 to 80years, right, and things weren't
(24:57):
like this before for our dogs.
They had much more freedom.
They weren't left alone most ofthe time, you know, like
families, at least in Chile, notuntil very long ago.
You would live with a lot ofgenerations so your grandparents
, your uncles, your aunts orwhoever and there was someone in
the house it was.
The houses were big, were fullof people and you know and dogs
(25:20):
had more freedom.
That changed dramatically andthere hasn't been a lot of time
for dogs to adapt to that.
Not only that, dogs are usuallyneutered or spayed, so any
adaptation to that hasn't beenable to pass on to the next
generation, which makes youwonder if they're just.
(25:41):
It's not that there's anabnormality in their DNA.
It's just that their DNA isn'tmeant for this environment and
that's why some dogs aren't ableto adapt to it and get
triggered by this situation.
Just talk.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, no, that's fascinating.
Well, we know we're learningmore about spaying and neutering
and how.
I've had a few veterinarians onto discuss kind of the pros and
cons of spaying and neuteringand how it affects hormonal
changes and how it can affectstops of anxiety and as well as
health and wellness.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Exactly, it makes sense right.
And can we talk, excuse me, andI think that it's important for
dog guardians, even if they arenot professionals in this
subject.
It is something important toconsider because we tend to feel
guilty when we're seeing ourdogs doing this or having these
(26:39):
issues, but we also can feel alittle bit angry because they
are feeling like that andsometimes we have a hard time
understanding.
Why aren't you just coping withit and like figuring it out?
Are you doing it on purpose?
Why can't you just chill,exactly, exactly, and
understanding that?
Or like I'll just put you in acrate and that will solve it,
(27:03):
and understanding that thesituation goes way farther?
than that way.
Beyond that, and understandingthat the dog doesn't have the
tools to solve this and that myenvironment isn't providing what
the dog needs and not only myenvironment, but like taking it
personal, but our environment ingeneral I think creates more
(27:24):
empathy and I can give us thechance to understand a little
bit better what's happening ontheir end and to make
arrangements from an empathypoint of view or perspective to
help them overcome thischallenge.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That was kind of an alignment with what my other
question was.
Are there things that we'redoing that could be creating
this separation anxiety in dogsthat aren't necessarily, that's
not necessarily inherent inright?
Are there things that we'redoing or not doing to create
this and not to shame or blameany of?
The pet parents, but weunknowingly are creating
(28:03):
situations that might you know,increase the anxiety in our
environment?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
That is also a very, very, very good question,
because the answer is yes and no.
I think that, in a broadconcept and if we look at the
big scheme of things, we couldor we are, maybe perhaps due to
all the things I've mentionedbefore right Like the
environment is sustaining dogsas it was before.
(28:30):
Dogs haven't changed much, butwe have changed, and all of
those things could definitely beimpacting their lifestyle.
But, on the other hand, doingthings that this is very typical
from the literature, like a fewyears ago, from a few years ago
, for example, giving our dogs alot of love, giving our dogs
(28:52):
things for free, letting themsleep in the bed with us, all of
those things aren't going tocreate separation, anxiety, and
so Thank you for clarifying that.
I sleep with my dog.
I think that's whatever shewants.
Yes, everything for free withthe princess and that's okay.
(29:12):
And she doesn't have separationanxiety.
That's not going to create itat all.
So, if your dog has separationanxiety and also, on the other
hand, if your dog has separationanxiety, removing all of those
things from the equation isn'tgoing to solve it.
Actually, it can even make itworse, because your dog yeah, I
was going to say sounds likeyour dog is going to get super
(29:33):
anxious, right and confused, andwhy aren't you giving all of
these things that you used towhat's happening?
And it's going to create evenmore stress to top off the other
situations.
So that's not part of ourprotocol.
You don't have to do any ofthose changes.
You just have to focus onteaching your dog to be left
alone in a safe, gradual way.
(29:54):
Now there are things, though,that could potentially lead to a
dog not knowing what to expect.
For example, when the pandemichit and nobody was going out,
most definitely it could becometraumatizing If the dog has the
predisposition, though.
It could be traumatizing forthe dog if you never left him
(30:14):
alone for two years and thensuddenly you left for eight
hours.
Right, some dogs will do it andwill cope with it, but some
dogs won't.
So my advice in those cases is,if you are adopting a dog, make
sure that you are doing toomany things and this is not
going to there's no guarantees.
This is not going to preventnecessarily separation of
(30:34):
society from happening, but itcould increase your chances of
success.
So the two things one iscreating a foundation in terms
of structure, in terms ofroutine, that your dog can hold
on to and that works for ushumans as well.
Right, if you know what toexpect, if you have a day that
(30:56):
you know that this is going tohappen and there's nothing scary
, there's nothing unknown, youcan deal with it and you can
start feeling more comfortableright At home.
Like that, you can settle, youcan let your guard down.
And so I start with that.
When I that's my firstsuggestion when you adopt a dog,
(31:18):
and once that dog feels morecomfortable, you start slowly
adding things that are out ofthat equation, that are more
flexible, that are more unknown,so the dog also learns
flexibility, but with afoundation of structure, a
foundation of safety.
And then you start adding theseother things, and one of those
(31:41):
things that you start adding isleaving your dog alone.
Leaving your dog alone for notthe first day, from nothing to
12 hours, but for 30 minutes andfor one hour, baby steps, yeah,
and then you maybe get to maybetake vacation when you're going
to adopt a dog, you know, orlike, have some time and some
(32:01):
arrangements that are going toallow you to do this in a
gradual way and not just, youknow, don't know what you're
doing and go crazy about it.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And then See ya, yeah , and feel overwhelmed because
nothing is working and you haveto move forward right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
And again, sometimes it doesn't work, but it gives
you more chances that things aregoing to go in the right
direction.
And even if the dog has thegenetic predisposition to
develop suppression anxiety, ifyou have a dog who has a hard
time finding things traumatizing, because he's very good at
tolerating change, because youtalked to him to tolerate change
(32:40):
in a gradual and positive way,it's less likely that that dog
will ever get triggered and havean onset of suppression anxiety
, because none of the thingsthat you're throwing his way are
traumatizing to trigger it, ifthat makes sense, mm-hmm.
So that's why I like thatapproach of gradual flexibility
(33:03):
in their lives.
And the last thing I want tomention about that is that when
you are starting to do absences,you can definitely to keep
things safe and to know what'sgoing on.
The best best friend of usnowadays are phones, smartphones
or any cameras.
Many people already havesurveillance cameras, so check
(33:24):
what your dog is doing Insteadof like wondering what's
happening or relying on yourneighbor telling you that your
dog barked and you know whatthat bark was about.
Just watch your dog and if yousee something that it's getting
out of your hands and you don'tknow what it means and you're
concerned, stick, help right.
But if you see everything isgoing well, that will give you
(33:47):
peace of mind to keep movingforward in two longer directions
and knowing that things aresafe.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's perfect.
Yeah, even if you're juststarting off with like five to
ten minutes, you can go aroundthe corner and watch your dog
and see how they handle thatfive and ten minutes, just
because you're not hearing thembarking or scratching or
anything.
If they're pacing or startingto pant or super confused, it's
like you can gauge what yournext steps from there.
(34:15):
So that is a fantastic idea.
Exactly and very easy.
It's very easy, very easy.
You can even like if you don'thave a camera.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
You can just put your phone there and record and then
just watch the recording.
It's not a big deal.
We all have smartphones at thispoint in life, or most of us,
yeah so it's very easy to set itup.
And you're right Like it givesyou the chance to decide what to
do next, and in some cases, acouple of things you know,
(34:44):
linked to what you werementioning, is the first one if
you see your dog reacting andyou see that as your dog reacts,
like a few minutes pass andthat reaction starts pacing out
pacing, you know, and becomingless often and less intense, you
(35:06):
might determine that your dogis actually adapting to being
left alone and it's firstreacting.
It's a stress response Like isthis a flight or fight situation
?
Is this threatening, lifethreatening?
Oh, I guess not.
I guess this is okay, I'm justgoing to settle.
That's a dog without separationanxiety, who has the tools to
cope with the situation.
(35:27):
It's just that he never wasexposed to it before or didn't
know how to Right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So he's like what am I supposed to do here in this
situation?
All right, well, I don't know,so I'm just going to go for it
Exactly, and that might look notperfect.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
It might go to like a little bit body at the
beginning, but you will see thetrend or where the curve goes
right, Whether, if you see yourdog reacting and nonstop and
escalating, getting worse withthe passing of the minutes, you
know that that's not okay.
And the other thing becausethis is something that a lot of
the people who get to me havetried in the past and so I know
(36:03):
it's a very common mistake.
I don't want to, I don't likeit to call it a mistake, but a
common thing that people do isdoing this trial by going out of
the house and staying outsidethe door or staying in the car
that the dog can see through thewindow, for example, and that
could work.
But it also could lead tosomething we call FOMO or fear
(36:25):
of missing out, which is thatthe dog can see you're there.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
But I know or smell you, yeah, the dog can't reach
you, and so they start.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
They know you're there Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
It's like why are you doing there?
This is weird.
Why is she like right outsidethe door?
This is very weird.
Like, open the door, let me goout, and so you might see it as
separation anxiety.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
But then if you do the same trial and you actually
go away, the dog is like oh, Iguess you're gone, I'm just
going to go relax, and then youwill rule out.
Coming back to the beginning,when we were talking about
separation related behaviors,that's another underlying cause
the fear of missing out and soyou will be able to rule out
which one of those two it is,and the treatment is completely
(37:15):
different, you know based onwhich one it is.
So that's an important thing toconsider.
Different training withtraining you definitely start
outside the door, but that'sanother totally different story.
But for assessment purposes,okay, so you just drive away and
act naturally not like a robot,yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Briefly, what what I mean?
I'm sure this might be obviousto people, but if their dog has
having severe separation anxiety, what does that look like?
Severe is a very Because that'sit can get very dangerous.
Yeah, severe is a very For thedog, mostly For the dog.
For the dog it's not a big deal, it's probably.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Severe is an interesting term and an
interesting concept, because andI have a video on my YouTube
channel that is people willlaugh if you watch it, but I
think it really, it reallyexplains that point and it
really it makes it very clear.
I'll play that later I'll bequick, it's fine, everybody will
(38:24):
laugh.
But what happens is thatseverity.
Severity or intensity, it's avery it's a word that is hard to
.
It depends on the perspectiveof the of the person who, or the
dog, was experiencing it.
(38:44):
So I can say that something issevere because the science seems
severe to me, but that doesn'tmean that for the dog who isn't
showing those signs is lesssevere.
So there are dogs who will justsit quietly and wine quietly in
a corner of the house and willshut down, and that doesn't look
severe because the dog isn'ttrying to jump through the two
(39:07):
story windows.
second, story window yeah, butthat is still severe because the
dog is having a hard time.
So who?
who says what is severe and whatis not, which leads us to
understand, to to determine thatall cases are, in a way,
emergencies, because the thesubject of the problem or the
(39:28):
situation is having a very hardtime no matter how they express
it Right Now, there is thisseverity scale in the sense of
what you were mentioning like ifthis is dangerous, right, Like
if, if the dog is climbing thewindow and jumping off, or you
know, I had one case once thatthe dog was jumping on the stove
(39:49):
and had, a couple of timesmanaged to turn the handle of
the gas.
Basically, or you know, they,you know like not not to start a
fire but, to you know, couldget intoxicated and poison them.
So those things definitely arescary and are dangerous, but
(40:10):
again, don't with those.
One of the things I see a lotis and it's unfortunate for this
particular subject or field ofstudy is that when it doesn't
represent an issue for us humans, we tend to not put it in an
emergency scale of what, what isthe next thing we have to do.
And so there are many dogs whosuffer for years because they
(40:33):
never did something that causeda problem to the house or to the
neighbors or to anybody, anduntil they don't start really
doing things that affecteverybody else, that situation
doesn't get addressed Whether anaggressive dog, for example,
aggression is something thatit's, it's seen as an emergency
(40:53):
because it's actually causing aproblem to third parties, and so
that's why it's important todon't wait until that happens to
help your dog.
help your dog.
Even if you see that there aresigns that your dog is having a
hard time, you know, anddefinitely in any of those cases
, whether it looks very horribleor it doesn't look very
(41:16):
horrible.
I think seeking help is veryimportant.
Help from a professional isvery important because the
journey is a long one, and notonly you will benefit from
someone who will coach youthroughout the whole journey and
will know how to adjust thecriteria so your dog can succeed
(41:39):
, because there are going to beups and downs, regressions and
plateaus, and going through allof those isn't necessarily easy,
but also you will find thathaving someone who can help you
will keep your motivation upwhen you feel like you want to
quit.
Now, having said that, there aredifferent and I have one,
(42:01):
actually, but there aredifferent ways to do it yourself
programs out there that you canalso oh, you have one.
That's great, because there arepeople I mean.
I am that kind of person.
That's why I created one.
I love to learn things of myown and I follow tutorials, and
if that's who you are, that'sthe type of person you are,
there are.
There are, of course, optionsfor you as well, but most of
(42:22):
those programs are linked tosomeone, a professional, that
can help you.
If you feel like you need extrasupport, like if you need a
meeting with a person becauseyou want to make sure that you
are going in the right direction, you usually can access help
from the same person who hostedor created whichever course you
are taking.
But don't wait and don't justrely on what your neighbor or
(42:44):
your friend told you, becausemost of those things are
unfortunately outdated andfollowing a simple plan is going
to make your life much easier.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
In addition to your what you offer online what's,
and you also do virtualconsultations.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Everything is done virtual.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So everything is done virtual.
That's amazing.
So all over, just so you can doit globally.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Essentially, right All over the world.
Fantastic, and Spanish and inEnglish, so everybody's got a
real good.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Fantastic, if someone was looking for someone and,
for whatever reason, theycouldn't get in touch with you,
what are there any specifics?
What should they be looking forin the person that they're
wanting to get?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yes.
How do they know they're gettingsomebody who can help them in
the correct way, so mostbeneficial way, I think that for
and this is not only forseparation anxiety, but in
general unfortunately youprobably have mentioned, I've
had this conversation beforewith other professionals in your
podcast this is an unregulatedindustry, right?
(43:59):
So everybody can callthemselves a dog trainer, which
makes things hard for guardians,because you don't really know
if you're getting something thatis safe and that is
professional or not.
And so, although it is notofficially regulated, there are
a lot of different institutions,organizations and credentials
(44:20):
that most of us have right, orprofessionals who are good
professionals will seek, and soI do recommend to go to those
places to find our organizationsthat will usually have like a
search engine in their websitewhere you can find people who
(44:44):
are A trainer yeah, who havecredentials or have a
certificate from them, and makeyour homework.
I could start like mentioningdifferent institutions, but
instead of doing that, my advicewould be just do your homework
before you hire someone andcheck about who am I and check
(45:06):
for different certifications andgo and type the certification
in Google and read about it, soyou can make sure that who
you're hiring is a person whoknows what they're doing.
And in regards to separationanxiety, well, I'm a CSAT.
A CSAT means CertifiedSeparation Anxiety Trainer it's
C-S-A-T, and those the ones whoare CSAT have been trained to do
(45:33):
separation anxiety very deeply.
They're all people who have anextensive dog training career
behind them and then they havejumped into this credential and
it's a long course that you haveto take on all that, so it
really gives you a goodinformation about it.
Having said that, though, thereare different ones.
There's a separation anxietypro is another certification,
(45:54):
and I think those are the twomain certifications.
But there are a lot of peoplewho like separation anxiety and
have done studies like I havestudents, colleagues who are
students, who have taken courseswith me, and they have
separation anxiety clients andthey're very good professionals
and when they feel like theyneed extra support, they
(46:15):
actually have meetings withsomeone, for example, lee, to
help their clients.
So that's why don't have like atunnel vision speaking to the
gardens out there, but seekpeople who do have credentials
and certain letters after theirname, because even if they are
(46:37):
not CSATs or separation anxietypros, they're likely doing their
homework and have someresources to help you or point
you in the right direction.
Many of them will tell you Idon't do this, but go to this
person who does it, and that wayyou can get there.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I will try to put some links in the show notes as
well to some of those.
Yeah, at least the ones in theUS.
I'm not familiar with thecredentials like globally, so
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I understand Very hard, very complicated, but you
know it's in everything, likeyou know coming in I can only
give my own example but, as me,I love, as I've mentioned before
, to learn, like online andtutorials, and sometimes I don't
know anything about the thingthat I'm trying to learn, but
(47:26):
just going through all theletters that the person has
after their name and searchingthose letters and what they mean
, it really helps you understand.
Kind of critical, to think aboutwho you're hiring and if it
seems okay or not.
And if then and this is ageneral advice for dog training
(47:46):
if you hire someone and when youare in your consultation, you
don't feel comfortable aboutwhat they're trying to tell you
to do, always follow your gutand that's why I always tell to
my client that's important.
Yes, like you are the personwho is, you're the only person
who can advocate for your dog.
(48:06):
You're the best person toadvocate for your dog.
So if you don't feelcomfortable, what would you have
to do?
Get a second opinion first, butdon't do it because someone is
telling you and that's it Right,because I mean you don't know
and you know best.
Like that, your gut will neverlie to you.
That's very important.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, you've been my whole life.
No, but that's very important.
That's very important.
You are the one advocating foryour dog's health and wellness,
so you are the one in charge.
So you don't don't be bulliedby anybody yes, anybody who
might tell you otherwise.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
And medically even.
You know because, like and Ithink it's important to add to
the conversation about yourmedical issues is that you are
the one who lives with your dog24 seven.
When your dog changes, you know, you don't know.
You might not know what it isbecause you don't have the
(49:05):
knowledge the veteran inknowledge to to make the
connection, but you know thatsomething is right.
So if you go to your regularpractitioner to do to your vet
and you tell them this issomething wrong and your vet
says, no, everything is fine,but you still feel there is
something wrong, it's just asecond opinion, it's totally
fine, it's totally fine.
(49:25):
You're not doing anything wrongbecause you know that there's
something wrong.
And I have the blessing ofworking with my clients every
day.
So my protocols, my dailysupport protocols, are protocols
where we work every day and Ihave a client I was seeing just
before I jumping with you today.
I've been working with her forthree years and every day.
(49:48):
So we know her dog and sheknows her dog and in in.
So you can see a lot of thingsthat your vet that sees your dog
10 minutes, my miss.
And it's not because they'rebad, it's just because they
don't have the amount ofexposure you have or your
trainer has when, when you knowseeing your dog every day.
(50:12):
So if you think that somethingis happening, just you know,
believe it and and, and, findout, and dig, dig, dig until you
find what it is.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Absolutely, it's so important.
Thank you, moira.
Do you have anything else thatyou want to add?
I want to reiterate one thingthat you just said, and I think
when you said you've beenworking for someone just really
quickly for three years, peoplemight be like what?
But and I'm not saying thisapplies to every situation but
how do you set really quickly,realistic expectations with your
(50:44):
clients?
Like, how do you set you know,understanding that it takes
patience and it takes commitmentand it takes time.
You know, and you brieflymentioned it, but how do you
reiterate that with them?
People want to fix.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Exactly.
I don't know if I've ever doneany personal review about that.
Hopefully.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I'll try.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Sorry, I know, but yes, that's a typical question,
right, like?
People get to say, well, howlong it's going to take.
So I'm going to tell you twothings.
One is that I tell everybodythis example.
I tell them well, let's say,you have a phobia of something,
you're afraid, like.
I always give my own exampleI'm afraid of moths, those big
(51:30):
fat ones that are not fat, but Iam afraid of them, and so they
don't look very pretty for theold like sorry, sorry, moths,
you're not going to.
What happens is that what if youare afraid, let's say, of moths
or think about whatever is that?
You're afraid, very afraid, andyou are going to your therapist
(51:53):
because you want to, you know,get over this fear.
You want to be able to overcomeit and you go there and you
tell your therapist I want towork on this.
But let me tell you from thebeginning I only have three
months, because in three monthsI'm going to go to the
rainforest and I'm going to bestaying.
I'm going to stay in a cabinfor a month and I'll be exposed
(52:14):
to a million of moths and I needto be okay with it.
Yeah, what do you think yourtherapist is going to tell?
Speaker 1 (52:20):
you, your therapist is going to tell you I don't
know how long it's going to takeyou on.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
No, it's not my problem, it's yours, right?
Yeah, because this is not math,this is not something that we
can structure.
This is not teaching a dog tosit or lay down.
This is an emotional disorderand there's going to be a lot of
things involved that mightaffect the outcome, where this
environment, the dog'splasticity to learn and adapt,
(52:47):
medications and medical issues,your participation and
commitment, right.
So it is going to take as longas it takes and sometimes that
is three years and sometimesthat is months and there's no
really a timeline that we cangive or guarantee.
However and this is second andlast thing, in the big scheme of
(53:07):
things, what if it takes youone year?
Let's say your dog is two yearsold and it takes you one year,
and by the time that your dog isthree years, you're able to
leave your dog alone all day, orsix hours, or five hours, no
problem, and from then on,forever, for the rest of your
dog's days.
Yeah, it doesn't sound thathorrible anymore, right, it's
(53:31):
worth it, and we understand thatwhen we work out and want
results or when we learnanything.
If you want to learn a language, you know you're not going to
learn it in a month, and that'sokay, right.
Of course, there areconsiderations that we have to
keep in mind.
If your dog is old and your dogisn't healthy, yes, you might
(53:51):
want to ponder and make a listof pros and cons and decide what
is better to just manage thesituation, for it to keep your
dog safe or to actually work onit.
And it's very valid and we doit every time and on every
individual but in general, ifyour dog is healthy and younger,
it's totally worth it, even ifit takes long, and it's going to
(54:13):
give you so much happiness, notonly to your dog but to you, to
be able to go out free ofanxiety, free of fear, and your
dog is going to be free of fearand anxiety.
So everybody who I have askedthat when a head has taken that
long, they tell me that itchanged their lives.
So, yeah, I think it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
It's absolutely worth it, thank you so much I'm so
appreciate this conversation.
Now you can take your dog for awalk, although it looks like
she may have just given up onthat idea.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
She gave up, but some were woke up.
This is the day you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Oh no, now you're cats up, he's the day you're
smiling, so he's a nighttimeprowler.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
I'm going to start crawling on me and like okay,
you're done, Talk to me now Allright.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
well, you have your hands full.
I so appreciate this, Moira.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Thank you for your invitation.
I appreciate being here.
I had a little fun.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of
the Baroo Podcast.
As always, I have put links inthe show notes to some of the
things that we chatted abouttoday, as well as the link for
Moira's website if you areinterested in contacting her,
and it also has some reallygreat information up there.
So if you enjoyed the episode,please don't forget to rate and
follow the Baroo wherever youlisten to podcasts.
(55:36):
You can also follow onInstagram at Baroo Podcast, and
if you have a story of Caninecompanionship that you'd like to
share with me, or a question oreven a comment, I'd love to
hear from you.
You can email me, charlotte, atthebarroucom.
All right, you guys, let's chatsoon.
Dogs make the best companions for humans.
This podcast aims to help makehumans better companions for
their dogs.
Welcome to the Baroo Podcast, amodern lifestyle podcast for
dogs and their people.
I'm your host, charlotte Bain.
I've been caring for otherpeople's dogs for more than 15
(00:21):
years and, while I've learned alot in my career, I definitely
don't know at all.
So I've collected anever-evolving roster of amazing
dog people and I learn newthings from them all the time.
Hi you guys.
(00:46):
Thank you so much for joiningme for this episode of the Baroo
Podcast.
Today, moira Heckenleitner joinsme to discuss separation
anxiety in our pups.
Moira is a certified separationanxiety trainer and a founding
member of the ChileanAssociation of Professional Dog
Trainers.
We discuss what separationanxiety is, what it isn't, what
(01:07):
it looks like and some ways thatwe can help support our pups
who may struggle with thiscondition.
So let's just jump into thechat, well, okay, well, we'll
just jump in.
I really appreciate you jumpingon with me.
I know that you are a certifiedseparation anxiety trainer as
well as a veterinarian, so I washoping you could jump in and
(01:30):
just tell us a little bit aboutyour background and how those
two things came to be.
If you don't, yeah yeah,definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
So.
I am originally from Chile,that's why the accent.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
The accent yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I studied veterinary medicine there many years ago,
2000,.
I finished in 2007 or somethinglike that, and back then there
wasn't a lot of opportunitiesfor veterinarians, so the field
wasn't working very well, likeit wasn't very sustainable money
(02:05):
speaking, financially speaking.
So you had to get creative andI really loved behavior.
One of my dreams was to be,like you know climbing a tree in
Africa, like watching animalsbehave and like studying them.
That was my childhood.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah, it sounds great .
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But there wasn't any options for that either, right?
So I found out that you know, Icould do like a dog training
course, and I jumped into that,and so I started working as a
dog trainer.
Actually, and there wasn't alot of education about dog
training either.
There was a lot of demand forit, and so we had to really
(02:43):
educate the population, whichhas gone great, because if you
see how things have shiftedthere in 10 years, it's just
amazing, which makes me feelvery happy and that's how I
became a vet and a dog trainer.
So I actually did in practice asa clinician I haven't since
2009 or something like that andinstead I just focused on
(03:07):
behavior instead.
That's kind of the journey.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Do you feel like you can use some of the knowledge
that you gained in veterinarymedicine towards dealing with
animals and behavior?
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Definitely there are a lot of things that you can
kind of pick and take advantageof when you have studied
veterinary medicine.
One of them and it's a verybroad one, but is that you can
structure things in a certainway that allows you to be very
objective, which is very helpfulwhen you're dealing with
(03:44):
behavior issues, because thereare a lot of pieces that we have
to consider and sometimes theycan get away from us Like they
can keep our mind.
So, like using some of theknowledge you learn as a
veterinarian can help you withthat.
And, on the other hand,focusing on separation of sight
here right now, I startedworking exclusively with
(04:07):
separation of sight dogs in 2017and from then on, and in this
particular behavior disorder orbehavior challenge, medication
is a big thing, and not onlythat.
In many cases, you can see thatthe actual root of the problem
is medical and not evenbehavioral, because you probably
(04:30):
see your own cases as well,many cases that look like
behavior.
When you start digging deeper,you find out that there's either
a medical component affectingthings or there's actually only
a medical root that is causingthe behavior change, and so
knowing what to look for andwhen to send guardians to see
(04:55):
their vets to make sureeverything is okay in that
regard can be very, very helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Is that something that you always do?
You always send them to seetheir veterinarian, as well as
creating a protocol for behavior.
Is that part of kind of whatyou do, or are there dogs that
you're like?
No, this is totally justbehavior.
This is not.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes, I actually love to make sure that we are
approaching this in anintegrative way and that we are
all professionals, are on boardand we're working as a team.
I really love to involve eitherthey're already their
veterinarian, the one they'reworking with, or to bring
(05:39):
someone if they need somethingmore specific like a vet
behaviorist or a vetveterinarian that works in
behavior and likes behavior, sowe can all work in different
areas of the dog and help themsucceed.
So yeah, I usually tend to askat the beginning of my
consultation if you know how arethings going on?
(06:02):
When was the last time theyvisited their vet?
If that hasn't been for a while, I encourage them to do so and
I usually write a behaviorreport so I can get in touch
with them and we can startcreating a plan together.
In many cases what happens inseparation anxiety is that dogs
are already.
Either they're either alreadyon medication and you just have
(06:25):
to get in touch and make surethat everything is in the place
it has to be, or you have tostart a medication protocol and
that report and that connectionmakes a big difference because
the veterinarian can choose theright medication for that
particular case.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Right, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
We'll jump a little bit deeperinto that in a little bit, but
since we're already jumping in,I'd love to just really talk
about what separation anxiety is, what it looks like and how do
we know if our dog hasseparation anxiety.
Sometimes we mistake thesebehaviors.
(07:06):
Is that your?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
problem.
That's my dog, I'm so sorry forthe noise.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
It's getting ugly.
No, it's totally mine.
I love it.
It's always appropriate.
Yeah, it's very cute.
He keeps walking back and forth.
Is that time of the day?
It's like Friday.
Oh yeah, he's like.
I'm sorry, what are you doing?
I'm like I'm going to go for awalk now.
Are you that over there?
Why are you talking to thislady?
So, anywho, very cute, so yeah.
(07:32):
So what does separation anxiety?
How does it show up in our dogs?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's a great question, and I think that,
although separation anxiety is aterm that is widely mentioned
and everybody has said it atsome point, right, I think every
dog guardian has wondered aboutit, has talked about it
Fortunately it's still prettymisunderstood and it became very
(07:59):
popular.
It was already pretty prevalentand popular, but it became even
more popular during the pandemic, when we didn't leave our dogs
alone and then we startedleaving them alone again and we
started seeing things that wedidn't like and things that
concerned us, right.
The problem is that there'ssomething bigger than separation
anxiety, let's call it that iscalled separation related
(08:22):
behaviors, and I like to thinkabout this term as an umbrella.
That includes a lot ofdifferent things, and separation
related behaviors are basicallyall the behaviors that a dog
displays when it's left alone inthe house that are undesirable
either for them, for themselvesand or for us humans, and these
(08:43):
things can be the typical thingsyou know barking, vocalizing,
destroying objects that aren'tmeant to be toys or that we
wouldn't like them to toys,eliminating pacing, among many
others.
Those are the most typical ones.
So, however, those behaviorsare non specific.
(09:04):
With what does that mean?
It means that your dog can barkfor many reasons right, it can
bark the dog can bark whenyou're around.
The dog can bark when you're notaround, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that the dog ispanicking.
Right, and the same happenswith destruction.
The same happened when sorrywith the squeaky toy.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I was waiting for him to get a toy.
He looked like he was on themove for a toy.
Okay, cute.
So apologize.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Apologize, that's totally fine.
So it's.
The same goes with elimination,for example, like a dog can
urinate in the house in a placewhere you wouldn't want to,
which doesn't necessarily meanthat the dog is panicking when
he's alone or she's alone, right.
So those are separate, relatedbehaviors and they can happen
(09:54):
due to many different causes.
The underlying cause is the onethat we want to recognize, and
that underlying cause can be,for example, that the dog has
too much energy, that the doghasn't been educated to do or
not do something.
It could be that you live in avery busy neighborhood and every
time a dog passes by with theirguardian, your dog barks
(10:17):
because your dog sees that otherdog through the window, right.
And it can also be separationanxiety.
There are other things thatcould be happening as well, such
as confinement issues, which isa big, big one, very prevalent
one, because, at least in the US, it's very common to leave dogs
in crates when left alone, andmany dogs don't like that.
(10:37):
That is what's actuallyaversive to them.
That is what's the root of theproblem, the underlying cause.
But if you leave that dog freein the house, they don't display
any of the symptoms or signs,and so it is very important to
understand or to find out whichone is the underlying cause of
this behaviors before you jumpinto what to do and how to help
(11:01):
them and answering yourquestions.
Circling back to your questions,with a long road to get there,
separation anxiety is one ofthose causes and separation
anxiety is basically the fear,the panic, the phobia of being
left alone.
For that particular dog, beingleft alone is an aversive
(11:22):
stimulus.
So they're exposed to it.
They will really try to copewith the situation, but they're
going to reach a point, at anintensity so, at a certain
duration of that absence, thatthey are not going to be able to
successfully do it anymore andat that point the situation will
become aversive and they willstart showing this overt signs
(11:44):
which won't disappear untilsomeone is back, in other words,
until this stimulus, thisabsence, is removed and the dog
is not exposed to it anymore.
And unfortunately, since thisis a phobia, which is an
irrational fear, the dog, overtime, as he's exposed to it,
isn't able to identify that thisis not a flight or fight
(12:08):
situation, that this is not athreat anymore, and instead he
continues to display a stressresponse every time he is
exposed to it.
That's why it's so importantfor us to treat it and to
implement a training protocol,instead of just letting it be
and see if it's going to go awayover time.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Is there an age where separation anxiety tends to
show up in dogs, and these arethrowing a few questions at you.
But is it different?
Your approach for dealing withit as a pup, let's say it's like
a brand new puppy and you'releaving it for the first few
times versus, like you know, anadult dog or even a senior dog,
(12:52):
because I do know senior dogscan get more anxious, as dogs
can get more anxious as they age.
So I'm just curious if there'san age where you a common age
where it comes up and if not,how do you treat it, differing
depending on the dog and age.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
That's a great question, because that was
actually one of the theconceptions or the beliefs maybe
20 or 50 years ago, that thiswas a situation that used to
arise during adolescence.
But we have found out thatthat's not the case and that
there's no correlation betweenage and the onset of this
(13:33):
disorder.
It's more about something thatmight have happened in the life
of the dog that represented achange or something traumatizing
that triggered the onset ofthis situation, and then, from
then on, the dog is unable to toto successfully get out of it
unless you, you work on it.
(13:54):
And so I have puppies that have, who have always have
separation anxiety since thevery beginning.
They are right to the house,they want they have separation
anxiety.
I have had cases where the dogsstarted showing signs after a
certain situation, when theywere like two years or three
years old, and I also had dogswho are elderly, you know,
(14:17):
geriatric dogs, who starteddeveloping signs when they were
13, 10 years old.
So it's really.
There is really no like rhymeor reason, it just happens.
And in regards to your secondquestion and how you approach
this, mostly you approach it thesame.
So the main foundation of thetreatment or the protocol is the
(14:40):
same, but you will have to makesome adjustments depending on
the situation.
So, for example, with puppies,you might have a few hiccups
because you might have torestrict certain areas, and if
the dog also has confinementissues, you will have an extra
challenge there or you will haveto.
I have something I call I havecoined the term the puppy mode,
(15:03):
and so when you have a puppy andyou're working on separation
anxiety, you have to really findthe times where the puppy is in
nap mode, relax mode, becauseif you find the puppy at the
time that they are like playingaround and having fun, you're
not going to be, you're notsetting the dog up for success.
It's very hard to be successfulbecause they're never going to
relax.
(15:23):
So it really depends on thesituation with an adult or older
dog.
It might be easier because youdon't have to be worried about
the dog doing things that youdon't want to right Like it's.
In that way it's easier, but italso could be harder because
the dog might have medicalissues going on.
Certain restrictions ofmovement, you know, or even like
(15:46):
cognitive issues or challengesthat are impending are not
letting the dog succeed.
So it really depends on the dogdefinitely.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And so are there.
How do you know, as we weretalking about earlier, how do
you know if this is a case thatneeds, like, medical attention?
Or how do you know what aresome signs of just thinking of,
like the senior dogs, theelderly dogs, of the anxiety
being something that is notreally related to behavior.
(16:20):
It's related to what are someof those signs that it could be
a medical issue, versus justthey're just quote, acting out
or having you know, definitelyissues in that way.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So first, and as we were mentioning or discussing
before, I really like to makesure the dog is healthy, more so
when the onset of this behavioris very acute, if it's
something that happened likefrom that day to night, or like
in just one day.
All of a sudden the dogprevious prior to that was
(16:55):
totally fine and there wasnothing else in the environment
that suggests that there wassomething that happened to the
dog.
I would like to know if thatwas healthy, because it could be
that a medical issue triggeredit.
But it also could be that thisis not behavioral at all and
it's just the medical issue thatis causing the behavior.
(17:15):
And as you resolve that, thebehavior will naturally go away.
So that's why I really, reallymake sure that the dog we know
that the dog is healthy.
If it's a senior dog, even moreso.
I, then I get much more pushyabout suggesting strongly that
(17:37):
the dog I know I actually loveit.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It's just hard not to laugh.
It's going to down.
I hope that's a good one.
And this is seriousconversation with a little humor
attached to it.
Oh my God, I'm sorry.
What was I going to say?
No, no, so what?
Can we give an example of whatsome medical issues could
possibly be?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yes, Like pain, for example.
That's a great one.
So pain, imagine, for example,when you were a kid and you were
in pain.
You first you wanted your momor your dad or whoever was the
object or for your affection.
You wanted that person with you.
You don't want to be left alone.
It's like, well, be cool.
And you were much more likeannoyed about everything.
(18:26):
Let's say someone was buildinga house beside you your house or
your window.
You were sick and you were.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
you had a headache and you didn't want to be left
alone.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And you were much more irritated about how you
were feeling, what was happeningoutside.
So any pain is potentiallyeither a cause of a behavior
change or something that ismaking it worse.
Not feeling well in generalwill be.
Of course, there are hormonalissues that could be leading to
(18:56):
changes of behavior as well, butpain is a big one that I would
totally suggest to rule outfirst as one of the most
important things.
Then, if you start diggingdeeper, there are things like
canine cognitive dysfunction,for example, and all dogs that
can be altering the dog'sbehavior.
But that's more like a rulingout situation is, like when you
(19:17):
have ruled out everything else,you decide that it might be that
, but at first I woulddefinitely rule out physical
things that could be leading tothis change.
And once in coming back to yourquestion about medication, so
once you have ruled out that thesituation isn't medical, or if
it was medical, you haveaddressed it and everything else
(19:40):
is clear and you have moretransparency, if you will, in
terms of what is working andwhat to do and you know and you
can kind of connect the dogs Inthose cases or when you reach
that point.
The way I usually think aboutbehavior medication is well.
(20:03):
I usually mention it toeverybody at first.
It's part of my script in a way,because I want to normalize it,
because there's a lot of,there's a lot of fear about
around it and there is a lot ofthoughts, strong emotions around
it and it's important tonormalize it because it might be
that your dog will need it downthe road, even if your dog
(20:24):
doesn't need it at the beginning.
And so I really have thatconversation at first.
But then things that made mereally suggest it, strongly
suggested, are when the dog hasmore than one behavior challenge
at the same time.
So if I meet a dog who not onlyhas a professional society but
also has confinement issues,productivity, noise, sensitivity
(20:48):
, fear of something else, thatis a dog that potentially could
be a very good candidate formedication, because you can see
that the dog is struggling inmany fronts, and supporting that
and allowing the dog to feelbetter and increasing the dog's
threshold to respond to thosethings will likely help his
(21:11):
quality of life and it willallow him to be successful.
So, anyway, if it's a dog whodoesn't have any challenges and
the only situation that'shappening is separation of
society, you might get away withnot using any medication at
first and see where it takes you, you know, and if it works, it
works, and if not, maybe at somepoint down the line, you will
(21:32):
have to start incorporating it.
And the other.
I usually recommend vacation andagain, I don't.
I am not the person whoprescribes it, I recommend to a
client and then I, you know, Imake the link with the
veterinarian so we can all worktogether.
But another way of, or aneither reason why I would start
(21:54):
really paying attention tovacation is if the dog isn't
consistent and we can't pointout where does that come from.
So, because the separation ofsociety, training is, is simple
but not easy and it takes a longtime and there are a lot of
hiccups down the road or alongthe way, but you usually can
(22:18):
point them out to something islike the dog didn't do well in
this setup because that ischallenging for him, or the dog
had a bad day to this and that'swhy he had this problem or this
response.
And if you can't really pointanything out and you don't know
and there's no connectionswhatsoever, it's just a chaos,
then right, it would probably bea good idea to think about
(22:42):
medications to createconsistency and have a more
transparent taste that you cananalyze better if you will.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right, it's kind of like a baseline Exactly To
handle.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Do we think that dogs who have separation anxiety
there's like something.
Is there something in their DNA?
Is some of that hereditary fora lot of them or is it something
?
So I mean, I know it's likeusually they've experienced
something, but you know, even astraumatic as taking a puppy
away from you know their mother,you know could be whatever.
What triggers that?
(23:17):
You know panic, but or is it,yeah, or are so.
Are those dogs because they'remore, it's something in their
DNA that makes them respond tothat situation in that way?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yes, yes, it makes complete sense and we do believe
so.
So we haven't we don't have thefinal answer to that, but we do
believe that there is a geneticpredisposition and that some
dogs have it and if they areexposed to certain environmental
factors, such as changes, suchas traumatizing experiences,
(23:52):
they might, those experiences orthose environmental factors
might trigger the onset ofseparation anxiety, because many
dogs are exposed to those samethings and not all of them
develop separation anxiety,right, and some dogs, as I was
mentioning before, areexperiencing it since they they
(24:12):
arrive home from, let's say, areader, let's say like they,
since they're separate fromtheir mom, or even before, dad.
And also, we have seenconnections between mom and, you
know, puppies having the samesort of challenge, or siblings
having the same sort ofchallenge.
We don't know if it's somethingthat happens in the womb or if
(24:32):
it could potentially be, youknow, hereditary.
Now I do have to say that oneof my, my thoughts about it and
I have discussed it before withKim Kim Brophy, and I think it's
a very interesting point isthat our environment has changed
very fast in the last 50 to 80years, right, and things weren't
(24:57):
like this before for our dogs.
They had much more freedom.
They weren't left alone most ofthe time, you know, like
families, at least in Chile, notuntil very long ago.
You would live with a lot ofgenerations so your grandparents
, your uncles, your aunts orwhoever and there was someone in
the house it was.
The houses were big, were fullof people and you know and dogs
(25:20):
had more freedom.
That changed dramatically andthere hasn't been a lot of time
for dogs to adapt to that.
Not only that, dogs are usuallyneutered or spayed, so any
adaptation to that hasn't beenable to pass on to the next
generation, which makes youwonder if they're just.
(25:41):
It's not that there's anabnormality in their DNA.
It's just that their DNA isn'tmeant for this environment and
that's why some dogs aren't ableto adapt to it and get
triggered by this situation.
Just talk.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, no, that's fascinating.
Well, we know we're learningmore about spaying and neutering
and how.
I've had a few veterinarians onto discuss kind of the pros and
cons of spaying and neuteringand how it affects hormonal
changes and how it can affectstops of anxiety and as well as
health and wellness.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Exactly, it makes sense right.
And can we talk, excuse me, andI think that it's important for
dog guardians, even if they arenot professionals in this
subject.
It is something important toconsider because we tend to feel
guilty when we're seeing ourdogs doing this or having these
(26:39):
issues, but we also can feel alittle bit angry because they
are feeling like that andsometimes we have a hard time
understanding.
Why aren't you just coping withit and like figuring it out?
Are you doing it on purpose?
Why can't you just chill,exactly, exactly, and
understanding that?
Or like I'll just put you in acrate and that will solve it,
(27:03):
and understanding that thesituation goes way farther?
than that way.
Beyond that, and understandingthat the dog doesn't have the
tools to solve this and that myenvironment isn't providing what
the dog needs and not only myenvironment, but like taking it
personal, but our environment ingeneral I think creates more
(27:24):
empathy and I can give us thechance to understand a little
bit better what's happening ontheir end and to make
arrangements from an empathypoint of view or perspective to
help them overcome thischallenge.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That was kind of an alignment with what my other
question was.
Are there things that we'redoing that could be creating
this separation anxiety in dogsthat aren't necessarily, that's
not necessarily inherent inright?
Are there things that we'redoing or not doing to create
this and not to shame or blameany of?
The pet parents, but weunknowingly are creating
(28:03):
situations that might you know,increase the anxiety in our
environment?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
That is also a very, very, very good question,
because the answer is yes and no.
I think that, in a broadconcept and if we look at the
big scheme of things, we couldor we are, maybe perhaps due to
all the things I've mentionedbefore right Like the
environment is sustaining dogsas it was before.
(28:30):
Dogs haven't changed much, butwe have changed, and all of
those things could definitely beimpacting their lifestyle.
But, on the other hand, doingthings that this is very typical
from the literature, like a fewyears ago, from a few years ago
, for example, giving our dogs alot of love, giving our dogs
(28:52):
things for free, letting themsleep in the bed with us, all of
those things aren't going tocreate separation, anxiety, and
so Thank you for clarifying that.
I sleep with my dog.
I think that's whatever shewants.
Yes, everything for free withthe princess and that's okay.
(29:12):
And she doesn't have separationanxiety.
That's not going to create itat all.
So, if your dog has separationanxiety and also, on the other
hand, if your dog has separationanxiety, removing all of those
things from the equation isn'tgoing to solve it.
Actually, it can even make itworse, because your dog yeah, I
was going to say sounds likeyour dog is going to get super
(29:33):
anxious, right and confused, andwhy aren't you giving all of
these things that you used towhat's happening?
And it's going to create evenmore stress to top off the other
situations.
So that's not part of ourprotocol.
You don't have to do any ofthose changes.
You just have to focus onteaching your dog to be left
alone in a safe, gradual way.
(29:54):
Now there are things, though,that could potentially lead to a
dog not knowing what to expect.
For example, when the pandemichit and nobody was going out,
most definitely it could becometraumatizing If the dog has the
predisposition, though.
It could be traumatizing forthe dog if you never left him
(30:14):
alone for two years and thensuddenly you left for eight
hours.
Right, some dogs will do it andwill cope with it, but some
dogs won't.
So my advice in those cases is,if you are adopting a dog, make
sure that you are doing toomany things and this is not
going to there's no guarantees.
This is not going to preventnecessarily separation of
(30:34):
society from happening, but itcould increase your chances of
success.
So the two things one iscreating a foundation in terms
of structure, in terms ofroutine, that your dog can hold
on to and that works for ushumans as well.
Right, if you know what toexpect, if you have a day that
(30:56):
you know that this is going tohappen and there's nothing scary
, there's nothing unknown, youcan deal with it and you can
start feeling more comfortableright At home.
Like that, you can settle, youcan let your guard down.
And so I start with that.
When I that's my firstsuggestion when you adopt a dog,
(31:18):
and once that dog feels morecomfortable, you start slowly
adding things that are out ofthat equation, that are more
flexible, that are more unknown,so the dog also learns
flexibility, but with afoundation of structure, a
foundation of safety.
And then you start adding theseother things, and one of those
(31:41):
things that you start adding isleaving your dog alone.
Leaving your dog alone for notthe first day, from nothing to
12 hours, but for 30 minutes andfor one hour, baby steps, yeah,
and then you maybe get to maybetake vacation when you're going
to adopt a dog, you know, orlike, have some time and some
(32:01):
arrangements that are going toallow you to do this in a
gradual way and not just, youknow, don't know what you're
doing and go crazy about it.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
And then See ya, yeah , and feel overwhelmed because
nothing is working and you haveto move forward right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
And again, sometimes it doesn't work, but it gives
you more chances that things aregoing to go in the right
direction.
And even if the dog has thegenetic predisposition to
develop suppression anxiety, ifyou have a dog who has a hard
time finding things traumatizing, because he's very good at
tolerating change, because youtalked to him to tolerate change
(32:40):
in a gradual and positive way,it's less likely that that dog
will ever get triggered and havean onset of suppression anxiety
, because none of the thingsthat you're throwing his way are
traumatizing to trigger it, ifthat makes sense, mm-hmm.
So that's why I like thatapproach of gradual flexibility
(33:03):
in their lives.
And the last thing I want tomention about that is that when
you are starting to do absences,you can definitely to keep
things safe and to know what'sgoing on.
The best best friend of usnowadays are phones, smartphones
or any cameras.
Many people already havesurveillance cameras, so check
(33:24):
what your dog is doing Insteadof like wondering what's
happening or relying on yourneighbor telling you that your
dog barked and you know whatthat bark was about.
Just watch your dog and if yousee something that it's getting
out of your hands and you don'tknow what it means and you're
concerned, stick, help right.
But if you see everything isgoing well, that will give you
(33:47):
peace of mind to keep movingforward in two longer directions
and knowing that things aresafe.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's perfect.
Yeah, even if you're juststarting off with like five to
ten minutes, you can go aroundthe corner and watch your dog
and see how they handle thatfive and ten minutes, just
because you're not hearing thembarking or scratching or
anything.
If they're pacing or startingto pant or super confused, it's
like you can gauge what yournext steps from there.
(34:15):
So that is a fantastic idea.
Exactly and very easy.
It's very easy, very easy.
You can even like if you don'thave a camera.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
You can just put your phone there and record and then
just watch the recording.
It's not a big deal.
We all have smartphones at thispoint in life, or most of us,
yeah so it's very easy to set itup.
And you're right Like it givesyou the chance to decide what to
do next, and in some cases, acouple of things you know,
(34:44):
linked to what you werementioning, is the first one if
you see your dog reacting andyou see that as your dog reacts,
like a few minutes pass andthat reaction starts pacing out
pacing, you know, and becomingless often and less intense, you
(35:06):
might determine that your dogis actually adapting to being
left alone and it's firstreacting.
It's a stress response Like isthis a flight or fight situation
?
Is this threatening, lifethreatening?
Oh, I guess not.
I guess this is okay, I'm justgoing to settle.
That's a dog without separationanxiety, who has the tools to
cope with the situation.
(35:27):
It's just that he never wasexposed to it before or didn't
know how to Right.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So he's like what am I supposed to do here in this
situation?
All right, well, I don't know,so I'm just going to go for it
Exactly, and that might look notperfect.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
It might go to like a little bit body at the
beginning, but you will see thetrend or where the curve goes
right, Whether, if you see yourdog reacting and nonstop and
escalating, getting worse withthe passing of the minutes, you
know that that's not okay.
And the other thing becausethis is something that a lot of
the people who get to me havetried in the past and so I know
(36:03):
it's a very common mistake.
I don't want to, I don't likeit to call it a mistake, but a
common thing that people do isdoing this trial by going out of
the house and staying outsidethe door or staying in the car
that the dog can see through thewindow, for example, and that
could work.
But it also could lead tosomething we call FOMO or fear
(36:25):
of missing out, which is thatthe dog can see you're there.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
But I know or smell you, yeah, the dog can't reach
you, and so they start.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
They know you're there Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
It's like why are you doing there?
This is weird.
Why is she like right outsidethe door?
This is very weird.
Like, open the door, let me goout, and so you might see it as
separation anxiety.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
But then if you do the same trial and you actually
go away, the dog is like oh, Iguess you're gone, I'm just
going to go relax, and then youwill rule out.
Coming back to the beginning,when we were talking about
separation related behaviors,that's another underlying cause
the fear of missing out and soyou will be able to rule out
which one of those two it is,and the treatment is completely
(37:15):
different, you know based onwhich one it is.
So that's an important thing toconsider.
Different training withtraining you definitely start
outside the door, but that'sanother totally different story.
But for assessment purposes,okay, so you just drive away and
act naturally not like a robot,yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Briefly, what what I mean?
I'm sure this might be obviousto people, but if their dog has
having severe separation anxiety, what does that look like?
Severe is a very Because that'sit can get very dangerous.
Yeah, severe is a very For thedog, mostly For the dog.
For the dog it's not a big deal, it's probably.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Severe is an interesting term and an
interesting concept, because andI have a video on my YouTube
channel that is people willlaugh if you watch it, but I
think it really, it reallyexplains that point and it
really it makes it very clear.
I'll play that later I'll bequick, it's fine, everybody will
(38:24):
laugh.
But what happens is thatseverity.
Severity or intensity, it's avery it's a word that is hard to
.
It depends on the perspectiveof the of the person who, or the
dog, was experiencing it.
(38:44):
So I can say that something issevere because the science seems
severe to me, but that doesn'tmean that for the dog who isn't
showing those signs is lesssevere.
So there are dogs who will justsit quietly and wine quietly in
a corner of the house and willshut down, and that doesn't look
severe because the dog isn'ttrying to jump through the two
(39:07):
story windows.
second, story window yeah, butthat is still severe because the
dog is having a hard time.
So who?
who says what is severe and whatis not, which leads us to
understand, to to determine thatall cases are, in a way,
emergencies, because the thesubject of the problem or the
(39:28):
situation is having a very hardtime no matter how they express
it Right Now, there is thisseverity scale in the sense of
what you were mentioning like ifthis is dangerous, right, Like
if, if the dog is climbing thewindow and jumping off, or you
know, I had one case once thatthe dog was jumping on the stove
(39:49):
and had, a couple of timesmanaged to turn the handle of
the gas.
Basically, or you know, they,you know like not not to start a
fire but, to you know, couldget intoxicated and poison them.
So those things definitely arescary and are dangerous, but
(40:10):
again, don't with those.
One of the things I see a lotis and it's unfortunate for this
particular subject or field ofstudy is that when it doesn't
represent an issue for us humans, we tend to not put it in an
emergency scale of what, what isthe next thing we have to do.
And so there are many dogs whosuffer for years because they
(40:33):
never did something that causeda problem to the house or to the
neighbors or to anybody, anduntil they don't start really
doing things that affecteverybody else, that situation
doesn't get addressed Whether anaggressive dog, for example,
aggression is something thatit's, it's seen as an emergency
(40:53):
because it's actually causing aproblem to third parties, and so
that's why it's important todon't wait until that happens to
help your dog.
help your dog.
Even if you see that there aresigns that your dog is having a
hard time, you know, anddefinitely in any of those cases
, whether it looks very horribleor it doesn't look very
(41:16):
horrible.
I think seeking help is veryimportant.
Help from a professional isvery important because the
journey is a long one, and notonly you will benefit from
someone who will coach youthroughout the whole journey and
will know how to adjust thecriteria so your dog can succeed
(41:39):
, because there are going to beups and downs, regressions and
plateaus, and going through allof those isn't necessarily easy,
but also you will find thathaving someone who can help you
will keep your motivation upwhen you feel like you want to
quit.
Now, having said that, there aredifferent and I have one,
(42:01):
actually, but there aredifferent ways to do it yourself
programs out there that you canalso oh, you have one.
That's great, because there arepeople I mean.
I am that kind of person.
That's why I created one.
I love to learn things of myown and I follow tutorials, and
if that's who you are, that'sthe type of person you are,
there are.
There are, of course, optionsfor you as well, but most of
(42:22):
those programs are linked tosomeone, a professional, that
can help you.
If you feel like you need extrasupport, like if you need a
meeting with a person becauseyou want to make sure that you
are going in the right direction, you usually can access help
from the same person who hostedor created whichever course you
are taking.
But don't wait and don't justrely on what your neighbor or
(42:44):
your friend told you, becausemost of those things are
unfortunately outdated andfollowing a simple plan is going
to make your life much easier.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
In addition to your what you offer online what's,
and you also do virtualconsultations.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Everything is done virtual.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So everything is done virtual.
That's amazing.
So all over, just so you can doit globally.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Essentially, right All over the world.
Fantastic, and Spanish and inEnglish, so everybody's got a
real good.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Fantastic, if someone was looking for someone and,
for whatever reason, theycouldn't get in touch with you,
what are there any specifics?
What should they be looking forin the person that they're
wanting to get?
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yes.
How do they know they're gettingsomebody who can help them in
the correct way, so mostbeneficial way, I think that for
and this is not only forseparation anxiety, but in
general unfortunately youprobably have mentioned, I've
had this conversation beforewith other professionals in your
podcast this is an unregulatedindustry, right?
(43:59):
So everybody can callthemselves a dog trainer, which
makes things hard for guardians,because you don't really know
if you're getting something thatis safe and that is
professional or not.
And so, although it is notofficially regulated, there are
a lot of different institutions,organizations and credentials
(44:20):
that most of us have right, orprofessionals who are good
professionals will seek, and soI do recommend to go to those
places to find our organizationsthat will usually have like a
search engine in their websitewhere you can find people who
(44:44):
are A trainer yeah, who havecredentials or have a
certificate from them, and makeyour homework.
I could start like mentioningdifferent institutions, but
instead of doing that, my advicewould be just do your homework
before you hire someone andcheck about who am I and check
(45:06):
for different certifications andgo and type the certification
in Google and read about it, soyou can make sure that who
you're hiring is a person whoknows what they're doing.
And in regards to separationanxiety, well, I'm a CSAT.
A CSAT means CertifiedSeparation Anxiety Trainer it's
C-S-A-T, and those the ones whoare CSAT have been trained to do
(45:33):
separation anxiety very deeply.
They're all people who have anextensive dog training career
behind them and then they havejumped into this credential and
it's a long course that you haveto take on all that, so it
really gives you a goodinformation about it.
Having said that, though, thereare different ones.
There's a separation anxietypro is another certification,
(45:54):
and I think those are the twomain certifications.
But there are a lot of peoplewho like separation anxiety and
have done studies like I havestudents, colleagues who are
students, who have taken courseswith me, and they have
separation anxiety clients andthey're very good professionals
and when they feel like theyneed extra support, they
(46:15):
actually have meetings withsomeone, for example, lee, to
help their clients.
So that's why don't have like atunnel vision speaking to the
gardens out there, but seekpeople who do have credentials
and certain letters after theirname, because even if they are
(46:37):
not CSATs or separation anxietypros, they're likely doing their
homework and have someresources to help you or point
you in the right direction.
Many of them will tell you Idon't do this, but go to this
person who does it, and that wayyou can get there.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I will try to put some links in the show notes as
well to some of those.
Yeah, at least the ones in theUS.
I'm not familiar with thecredentials like globally, so
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
I understand Very hard, very complicated, but you
know it's in everything, likeyou know coming in I can only
give my own example but, as me,I love, as I've mentioned before
, to learn, like online andtutorials, and sometimes I don't
know anything about the thingthat I'm trying to learn, but
(47:26):
just going through all theletters that the person has
after their name and searchingthose letters and what they mean
, it really helps you understand.
Kind of critical, to think aboutwho you're hiring and if it
seems okay or not.
And if then and this is ageneral advice for dog training
(47:46):
if you hire someone and when youare in your consultation, you
don't feel comfortable aboutwhat they're trying to tell you
to do, always follow your gutand that's why I always tell to
my client that's important.
Yes, like you are the personwho is, you're the only person
who can advocate for your dog.
(48:06):
You're the best person toadvocate for your dog.
So if you don't feelcomfortable, what would you have
to do?
Get a second opinion first, butdon't do it because someone is
telling you and that's it Right,because I mean you don't know
and you know best.
Like that, your gut will neverlie to you.
That's very important.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, you've been my whole life.
No, but that's very important.
That's very important.
You are the one advocating foryour dog's health and wellness,
so you are the one in charge.
So you don't don't be bulliedby anybody yes, anybody who
might tell you otherwise.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
And medically even.
You know because, like and Ithink it's important to add to
the conversation about yourmedical issues is that you are
the one who lives with your dog24 seven.
When your dog changes, you know, you don't know.
You might not know what it isbecause you don't have the
(49:05):
knowledge the veteran inknowledge to to make the
connection, but you know thatsomething is right.
So if you go to your regularpractitioner to do to your vet
and you tell them this issomething wrong and your vet
says, no, everything is fine,but you still feel there is
something wrong, it's just asecond opinion, it's totally
fine, it's totally fine.
(49:25):
You're not doing anything wrongbecause you know that there's
something wrong.
And I have the blessing ofworking with my clients every
day.
So my protocols, my dailysupport protocols, are protocols
where we work every day and Ihave a client I was seeing just
before I jumping with you today.
I've been working with her forthree years and every day.
(49:48):
So we know her dog and sheknows her dog and in in.
So you can see a lot of thingsthat your vet that sees your dog
10 minutes, my miss.
And it's not because they'rebad, it's just because they
don't have the amount ofexposure you have or your
trainer has when, when you knowseeing your dog every day.
(50:12):
So if you think that somethingis happening, just you know,
believe it and and, and, findout, and dig, dig, dig until you
find what it is.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
Absolutely, it's so important.
Thank you, moira.
Do you have anything else thatyou want to add?
I want to reiterate one thingthat you just said, and I think
when you said you've beenworking for someone just really
quickly for three years, peoplemight be like what?
But and I'm not saying thisapplies to every situation but
how do you set really quickly,realistic expectations with your
(50:44):
clients?
Like, how do you set you know,understanding that it takes
patience and it takes commitmentand it takes time.
You know, and you brieflymentioned it, but how do you
reiterate that with them?
People want to fix.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Exactly.
I don't know if I've ever doneany personal review about that.
Hopefully.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
I'll try.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Sorry, I know, but yes, that's a typical question,
right, like?
People get to say, well, howlong it's going to take.
So I'm going to tell you twothings.
One is that I tell everybodythis example.
I tell them well, let's say,you have a phobia of something,
you're afraid, like.
I always give my own exampleI'm afraid of moths, those big
(51:30):
fat ones that are not fat, but Iam afraid of them, and so they
don't look very pretty for theold like sorry, sorry, moths,
you're not going to.
What happens is that what if youare afraid, let's say, of moths
or think about whatever is that?
You're afraid, very afraid, andyou are going to your therapist
(51:53):
because you want to, you know,get over this fear.
You want to be able to overcomeit and you go there and you
tell your therapist I want towork on this.
But let me tell you from thebeginning I only have three
months, because in three monthsI'm going to go to the
rainforest and I'm going to bestaying.
I'm going to stay in a cabinfor a month and I'll be exposed
(52:14):
to a million of moths and I needto be okay with it.
Yeah, what do you think yourtherapist is going to tell?
Speaker 1 (52:20):
you, your therapist is going to tell you I don't
know how long it's going to takeyou on.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
No, it's not my problem, it's yours, right?
Yeah, because this is not math,this is not something that we
can structure.
This is not teaching a dog tosit or lay down.
This is an emotional disorderand there's going to be a lot of
things involved that mightaffect the outcome, where this
environment, the dog'splasticity to learn and adapt,
(52:47):
medications and medical issues,your participation and
commitment, right.
So it is going to take as longas it takes and sometimes that
is three years and sometimesthat is months and there's no
really a timeline that we cangive or guarantee.
However and this is second andlast thing, in the big scheme of
(53:07):
things, what if it takes youone year?
Let's say your dog is two yearsold and it takes you one year,
and by the time that your dog isthree years, you're able to
leave your dog alone all day, orsix hours, or five hours, no
problem, and from then on,forever, for the rest of your
dog's days.
Yeah, it doesn't sound thathorrible anymore, right, it's
(53:31):
worth it, and we understand thatwhen we work out and want
results or when we learnanything.
If you want to learn a language, you know you're not going to
learn it in a month, and that'sokay, right.
Of course, there areconsiderations that we have to
keep in mind.
If your dog is old and your dogisn't healthy, yes, you might
(53:51):
want to ponder and make a listof pros and cons and decide what
is better to just manage thesituation, for it to keep your
dog safe or to actually work onit.
And it's very valid and we doit every time and on every
individual but in general, ifyour dog is healthy and younger,
it's totally worth it, even ifit takes long, and it's going to
(54:13):
give you so much happiness, notonly to your dog but to you, to
be able to go out free ofanxiety, free of fear, and your
dog is going to be free of fearand anxiety.
So everybody who I have askedthat when a head has taken that
long, they tell me that itchanged their lives.
So, yeah, I think it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (54:37):
It's absolutely worth it, thank you so much I'm so
appreciate this conversation.
Now you can take your dog for awalk, although it looks like
she may have just given up onthat idea.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
She gave up, but some were woke up.
This is the day you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Oh no, now you're cats up, he's the day you're
smiling, so he's a nighttimeprowler.
Speaker 2 (54:55):
I'm going to start crawling on me and like okay,
you're done, Talk to me now Allright.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
well, you have your hands full.
I so appreciate this, Moira.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Thank you for your invitation.
I appreciate being here.
I had a little fun.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of
the Baroo Podcast.
As always, I have put links inthe show notes to some of the
things that we chatted abouttoday, as well as the link for
Moira's website if you areinterested in contacting her,
and it also has some reallygreat information up there.
So if you enjoyed the episode,please don't forget to rate and
follow the Baroo wherever youlisten to podcasts.
(55:36):
You can also follow onInstagram at Baroo Podcast, and
if you have a story of Caninecompanionship that you'd like to
share with me, or a question oreven a comment, I'd love to
hear from you.
You can email me, charlotte, atthebarroucom.
All right, you guys, let's chatsoon.
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