Unlocking Mental Wellness FT. Francesca Cook

Unlock the secrets of mental wellness with Francesca Cook, the insightful founder of Replenish Counseling LLC. Join us as we unravel the threads of mental health therapies, focusing on unique approaches like play therapy and sand tray therapy, which allow individuals to communicate their deepest emotions without words. Francesca sheds light on accelerated resolution therapy, a cutting-edge eye movement technique aimed at reshaping traumatic memories. Our conversation with Francesca emphasizes the importance of tailoring therapy to suit each individual's needs, ensuring a personal and effective journey towards healing.

Trauma isn't just about the events we've endured; it's about our responses to those events. This episode explores the nuances of trauma and its profound impact on mental health. Francesca shares stirring narratives of resilience, including personal stories of overcoming fears after traumatic experiences. We offer practical advice on creating safe environments conducive to recovery, while highlighting the transformative power of altering one's reactions to trauma. Through these discussions, we aim to inspire hope and highlight the potential for personal growth and healing.

Depression and anxiety are more than just buzzwords; they're complex conditions that many grapple with daily. With a blend of humor and thought-provoking insights, we tackle these issues, examining symptoms and causes, from chemical imbalances to life circumstances. Explore practical strategies for managing these mental health challenges, such as setting small goals and celebrating daily milestones. As we navigate the evolution of anxiety in our post-COVID world, we stress the importance of seeking professional help. Therapy isn't just for crises—it's a powerful tool for anyone eager to understand themselves better and foster personal growth.

Episode Transcript

Jonny Strahl (00:09):
The purpose of this episode is to help promote
mental health awareness.
The information provided is nota substitute mental health
counseling.
This social media page is notconfidential, nor a HIPAA
compliant platform.
If you have specific questionsregarding your mental health,
you are encouraged to find apersonal therapist that can
assist you in your journey.

(00:29):
If you're experiencing suicidalthoughts, please contact a
professional.
The National Suicide Hotline is1-800-273-8255.

James LaGamma (00:41):
Welcome back to the Bender Continues podcast.
Today we're diving deep intothe world of mental health with
a special guest, Francesca Cook,founder of Replenish Counseling
LLC.
Based in Daytona Beach, Florida, Francesca specializes in
supporting children, teens,adults, with variety of services
, including individual therapy,play therapy and sand tray

(01:04):
therapy, focusing on a holisticand personalized mental health
approach.

Ryan Selimos (01:10):
We're back, ladies and gentlemen, in our new
studio room.
Kind of Looks a little bitdifferent.
And welcome Francesca.
Thank you for joining us today.

Francesca Cook (01:20):
Hey, thanks for having me.

Ryan Selimos (01:21):
I know we canceled on you and we kind of pushed it
back.
Hey, are we still meeting, arewe not meeting?
But we finally, you know, wegot it set up together.
We really appreciate you, wow.
We really appreciate you takingsome time to meet with us and
just talk about the bucket ofmental health.
We are not educated there.
You are, and we are excited tolearn just a little bit about

(01:43):
what you do.
So let's start there.
Let's just talk about what doyou do?

Francesca Cook (01:48):
um.
So I'm a licensed mental healthcounselor and I work with
children through adults andmostly in trauma, grief, anxiety
issues and what does that meanfor us?

Ryan Selimos (02:03):
Can you like break it down?

Francesca Cook (02:07):
Like.
So I work with kids in the facetof like play therapy, which is
how children talk is throughplay.
So the play therapy side of itis getting them to process
through anything that's going onin their lives which could be
just like emotional outbursts oflike anger, or maybe they lost
somebody in their lives whichcould be just like emotional
outbursts of like anger, ormaybe they lost somebody in
their lives so they just need toget it out.

(02:29):
And so I work with kids in thatform and then with adults and
teenagers in talk therapy,talking about what's going on in
life, helping get coping skills, or, if you've ever heard of
grounding techniques, of likejust being back where you're at
and not having such high anxiety.
I do accelerated resolutiontherapy, which is like a eye

(02:50):
movement therapy, which utilizeslike REM sleep essentially, but
you're awake and that processis through like trauma, because
trauma gets stuck in the base ofthe brain and when it's back
there, people get stuck in itand so that's kind of releasing
it.
And so what acceleratedresolution therapy does is it
re-images what the trauma was,so it could be anything from a
car accident to abuse Wow,anything.

Ryan Selimos (03:13):
That's a lot to unpack.
Where do we want to start?

James LaGamma (03:16):
I find it interesting and I think you kind
of started to say some of themore the buzzwords in the
industry.
The buzzwords in the industry,but what would, what is it
called, when you're doing moreof the sand therapy and stuff,
versus that talk therapy thatyou do with, I guess, more
adults, teenagers?

Francesca Cook (03:32):
Okay.
So yeah, I guess I didn't touchon sand tray therapy.
I actually am certified in sandtray therapy, which can be with
kids and adults, and so that isusing figures and you build
your world in the sand andwhat's going on.
And so it kind of looks sillywhen people do it because
they'll be like, um, that's atoy.
And then they build the worldand it's really getting into the
subconscious part of your brainand then people work through

(03:55):
and they're like, wow, likewhat's in here.
And so even for me going throughthe trainings, I had to do it
in every training and you'relike, wow, that's actually
what's going on in my life, orthat's what went on in the past
of my life.
And then for talk therapy, it'smore just like talking to
people and asking open-endedquestions or helping guide in a
way where, like I'm not tellingyou what to do, but you're

(04:17):
getting to the, getting to ityourself with you know, like a
safe place, a safe person, andyou're allowed to in an, an
unbiased person.
I think that's the key in thatQuestion in regards to that.

Kenny Massa (04:30):
So does the type of therapy resonate stronger with,
or how you choose the therapy?
Does it resonate stronger withI would say more of an
importance to, how the personlike learns.
So if someone's an auditorybased person and they, or maybe,
a visual person, you wouldchoose one form of therapy over
another.
Or probably also has to dealwith their age too.

(04:50):
In that respect, kids probablylearn better with visual
representation.
But is that how you selectthose therapies?

Francesca Cook (04:57):
yeah.
So with kids I always do playtherapy with like 11 and under.
Um, now there might be sometalk in the play and they'll
talk to me, but because the waythat kids brains work and
process and they're developingthroughout, like it literally is
their world, is play and sothat's how I choose with them
and it's very.

(05:18):
I use child centered playtherapy which is very client
driven.
So a kid would come in and theychoose what they want to do
that day and then we workthrough that and then with
adults generally it starts withtalk therapy always.
So if you go to a therapist,unless you're going for a
specific reason, you're going tostart with talk therapy and
then throughout, if somebody'sstuck, I might use like sand

(05:39):
tray or expressive arts, whichis like utilizing drawing or
something, and with the traumait's like when somebody's stuck
in, cannot move forward.
That's when I utilize theaccelerated resolution therapy,
because it's a different type of, like I said, getting to the

(05:59):
base of your brain where, likeyou can't move forward, so you
have to do something else and sothat's no talking basically,
maybe a little bit of talking,but it's more re-imaging with
the eye movements makes sense.

Kenny Massa (06:08):
Um, I know there's probably a lot of other
questions.
I have a question, but it'sprobably going to shift us away
from the systems here becauseit's based off of something that
francesca just said, so I don'twant to jump the gun here.
If anybody wants to dive intothat.

Jonny Strahl (06:21):
Well, I'll just piggyback off one of the
questions you asked.
Kenny, you know a lot of whatyou're describing.
It seems obviously to us verycomplex, right?
When you're diagnosing, youknow where someone is at,
whether a child, an adult so Iguess are there specific like
keys or cues or things that youlook out for, just to kind of

(06:41):
translate where you need tostart, or maybe you need to go
back and do something else, like, I'm just curious what that
looks like yeah.

Francesca Cook (06:49):
So, um, there's assessments we utilize and then,
whenever you get the intake,like someone might say I'm
coming to specifically fortrauma, or I believe I have
trauma in my life, and so thenyou always I always look at
accelerated resolution therapyor sand tray therapy, because
both of them process trauma, andthen I will talk with clients

(07:12):
about that.
Or, you know, I always, like Isaid, I always start with talk
therapy, so we go from there.
If it's like I can't moveforward, I'm stuck, like I can't
even utilize coping skillsbecause I'm so keyed up
essentially I don't know ifthat's the right word, but I
just can't move forward, and sothat's where I shift.
But generally, yeah, I startwith like intake and assessments

(07:34):
and they're like there's likedepression assessments, anxiety
assessments, mood disorderassessments that I utilize to
just check where somebody is at.

Jonny Strahl (07:43):
Would you say there is a more common ground of
one versus the other from likea mood?
What does that look like?
I think it's really all,depending on the situation.

Francesca Cook (07:55):
Yeah, it's all dependent and the thing is too
everybody's different, so peoplecould come in and have like
tons of trauma and just be likeI just need somebody to talk to.
And then someone else mighthave tons of trauma too and be
like I need to process throughit in a different way than
talking Cause I've done talk.
Sometimes it'll be like peoplecome and be like I've done talk
therapy before and it didn'twork for me.
So, that's why they might cometo do like more expressive type

(08:17):
stuff like sand tray or theaccelerated resolution therapy,
because they've already done thetalking portion interesting can
I?

Ryan Selimos (08:26):
get you back, yeah all right, I'm just.

James LaGamma (08:28):
I'm really interested in the physical
aspect or, I guess, theactivity-based therapy that
you're talking about, becauseI've always thought it was just
always I'm talking to somebodyyou're kind of you have that
image of someone laying on acouch and someone across from
you, right?

Francesca Cook (08:43):
with a notepad.
You're, you're like what areyou writing?
What are you?

James LaGamma (08:45):
writing.

Ryan Selimos (08:46):
Perfect, yeah, exactly.
Tell us about your day, whathappened.

James LaGamma (08:51):
So I guess I'm interested Because obviously
we're going to have some peoplelistening that maybe have never
heard of this too, could be inthe same boat as me and they're
really intrigued and you're like, well, maybe this is something
I should try, because I'vealways done, you know, the
normal therapy throughout mylife, or they haven't done
therapy at all, and this is alittle bit more intriguing.
So when you go through thisprocess and you're starting to

(09:13):
show people how to do all thesesand therapies and different
activities and whatnot, do youalso give them I'm going to call
it homework and do some of thisstuff at home as well?
Is there is like there.

Francesca Cook (09:28):
I guess.
What does that package kind oflook like?
Yeah, so I will give peoplehomework.
I'm the type of person that ifI go to therapy I will not do
the homework, so I don't try toexpect anything that I wouldn't
do.
But if somebody is homeworkdriven, yeah, I will.
I'll have them like anything athome, like people can't do sand

(09:51):
tray at home, but they can goplay with their kid.
Or you know, like set asideundivided time with your kid,
because essentially play therapyone of the biggest things is
undivided time.
Kids don't have that anymorelike we're on our phones, we're
on our computers, you know.
So with that you can give thattype or of like teaching people
to work with their kids in sucha way of like validating their
emotions, like, oh yeah, thatwas really scary, even if it
didn't seem scary to a parent.
But then on the flip side, withadults, an expressive type

(10:14):
thing is like I could sendsomebody home with, write a
letter to your future self, yourpast self, which would be more
expressive, or to this personwho hurt you, or draw a self
portrait and identify who youare.
So those are things that youcould send home, but those are
also things you can do insession too.
So it just depends on theperson again if they want

(10:36):
homework outside of there otherthan just like practice
utilizing coping skills.

James LaGamma (10:40):
Yeah, yeah.
So basically you're notnecessarily forcing them to do
it just because, again, settingthat expectation, like you don't
do it yourself, right?

Francesca Cook (10:49):
Yeah.

James LaGamma (10:50):
That's an interesting take.
I always just assume like, ohwell, if you don't try to do
these things at home, you're notgoing to improve, kind of deal,
right like coping skills arealways homework, right, so they
learn to cope or learn to noticeyour emotions.

Francesca Cook (11:08):
That's always going to be homework.
So you do stop going to like wecall it the autonomic response
pattern, where it's like yournervous system just
automatically goes to this typeof response, like, say, somebody
has a panic attack, like youautomatically go to that.
Well, let's start practicingcalming down, breathing like, um
, a mindfulness activity of likeit's called five, four, three,

(11:30):
two, one of looking through yoursenses of like five things.
You can see, four things youcan touch, three things.
You can taste.
Uh, oh, my gosh, my brain justfroze.
Three things.
You can hear two things.
You can taste the one thing youcan smell kind of thing, so it
kind of like gets back into yourbody, and so those are things
that I will get people to workon outside of there, because
they're more like realistic typethings of like this is how we

(11:55):
get you out of your panic phaseor out of your anxiety, or get
you back into reality and intoyour body and your brain and
calm your brain down.

Kenny Massa (12:04):
I like that, that's .
That's a.
I've never heard of that.
Five, four, three, two, onething, but I think that that's
something that everyone can do.
That could change your currentstate basically immediately.

Francesca Cook (12:15):
Yeah, and sometimes, especially with kids,
I'll say look for seven thingsthat are your favorite color,
because that's way easier thanthinking, oh, I just stumbled
over it and I do it all the time.
But like with people or tellpeople about it, but it is hard.
You're like okay, five things Ican what.
So sometimes like look for yourfavorite color, your favorite
number, and, you know, startlooking around the room or for

(12:36):
your favorite items.
That's also something that canjust like get you back into out
of that panic type state.

Ryan Selimos (12:42):
Okay, before we go down, kenny's more particular
question, just to kind of playit out for us what's your
clientele breakdown in a day orweek?
Is it more kid-based?
Is it pretty even across theboard, kid, teens, adult, kind
of?
What does that look like?

Francesca Cook (12:56):
So I?
That's a hard answer.
I started out in privatepractice where I saw everybody,
and then I went into communitymental health in a crisis-type
center which is like wherepeople were teens are Baker
active teens and kids.
So I worked there, but alsowithin the out, as an outpatient
therapist in the schools, andthen for about a year and a half

(13:17):
it was solely five to 18.
Um, and now I'm back in andit's just kind of like dependent
on the season or who's calling,but I would say half and half
kids and adults dependent.

Kenny Massa (13:30):
Awesome, cool, my question, or I guess I want to
set the stage for more of thingsthat we're going to be talking
about today, but I think goingback to the basics and
understanding the infrastructureof mental health and therapy is
really important, and it allowsus to understand a creative

(13:50):
starting point.
And a word that you have saidmultiple times already has been
trauma, and I think a lot ofpeople initiate in doing
something to move their mentalhealth into a better place
typically starts with themrecognizing trauma.
But so like let's, let'sdiscover what.
What is trauma?

(14:10):
And I think you might havealready talked a little bit
about that.
Maybe your inability to moveforward is something, probably
something around there.
But can you just go to thebasics and what is trauma?
And then, how does someoneindicate whether they have a
traumatic, a traumatic eventthat is causing them to have
that inability to move forward,and is that the point where they

(14:32):
would then seek mental healthassistance?

Francesca Cook (14:36):
Okay, yeah.
So one thing is anybody canseek mental health assistance,
even if you just need somebody.
That's, like I said, unbiasedand safe, but specifically
related to trauma.
Trauma is not what happened toyou, it's the response to what
happened to you.
So it's how your brain respondsto the action.
So it might not come up foryears.

(14:59):
It might come up right away andyou're like what?
Nothing happened.
Why am I acting this way?
So like your brain kind ofprocesses like fight, flight or
freeze, or now they have fun aswell, and so like say I'll just
start, I'll just do a caraccident, cause that's kind of
you know, somebody might have aresponse to a car accident or

(15:20):
somebody else might not.
So it could be they can't driveanymore or they are driving in a
car with somebody else andthey're constantly like jerking
and jerking and freaking outbecause they've been in a car
accident, or just kind of likethey I'm trying to think of the
right words but so theirresponse pattern isn't that of

(15:41):
which they feel safe.
So trauma makes your body notfeel safe anymore and if you're
in an unsafe environment whereyou're like being re-traumatized
because it's the same thingover and over, now, car accident
wouldn't probably be that,unless you're getting car
accidents every day, but whereyou're being re-traumatized over
and over, it's hard for yourbody to get in a sense of safety
, and so if you cannot ever getin a sense of safety, you're not

(16:03):
going to heal or be able tomove forward.
But so basically, yeah, traumais your response to what
happened to you, and that's whypeople can go through certain
things that some people can't.
It's just how your brainresponds to it, in which you're
like freezing or fighting orfleeing everything around you
because you can't feel safe inthat area you.

Kenny Massa (16:30):
I don't like that.
I mean no, that made a lot ofsense.
I like that you said thatbecause I feel that a lot of
people would have the thoughtthat trauma is the event of
something happening to you, notthe event of the response of
what has happened to you.
So I like that, we uncoveredwhat trauma really is, because I
think that there's misconstruedinformation there and I think
that that is is helpful tounderstand.
Um now, typically when peoplecome to you, is it because they

(16:56):
are seeking assistance withtrauma.
And then, when I'm talkingabout the average, if you look
at a hundred people that you'veworked with, is it typically
because of a trauma, a traumaticevent that they feel from their
perspective that leads them toyou?

Francesca Cook (17:12):
Um, I would say, yeah, some people obviously
other people are dealing with,like depression, anxiety, family
issues.
Like I said, I do.
I deal with a lot of grief aswell, um, cause I used to work
for new hope for kids and it's agrief organization Um, but I
think, yes, the event willhappen.
And then they're like I'm notthe same, or and that's true,

(17:33):
the event was traumatic.
And so now your brain isconstantly trying to protect you
.
And so to say that the eventwas trauma could be yes, sorry
about my dogs.
Could be yes, it was.
But now it's your bodyresponding to it, if that makes
sense.
So it's the response patternthat you get into.

Kenny Massa (17:52):
Yeah, I like that.
I like that you see it in thatperspective, because I think you
can change.
If you look at what can youchange?
Right, you may have not beenable to change that particular
event.
What happened is what happened.
It may have been because of you, it may not have been because
of you.
You can't change what happenedall the time, but you can change

(18:16):
how you react to it.
You can't change yourperspective.
You can't change you, so it'sjust if you think about it from
the basics of mental health, youalways have the ability to
change, because you always havethe ability to change the
reaction.

Jonny Strahl (18:33):
Francesca, I want to use the car accident example
you brought up because I'm likereflecting back on a friend.
His mom was in a very bad caraccident.
She was driving andunfortunately the passenger
passed away and it was on thehighway, um, and I remember it

(18:54):
was pop warner football thosedays and she would never drive
on the highway so we wouldcarpool or one of the my parents
or other parents would be thedriver, just because she
couldn't get over what happeneda few years ago.
Flash forward, I I think likefive, six years later she's like

(19:14):
now able to drive on a highwayand she's moved on since that.
But the whole breakdown of likethe trauma and the event and
breaking that and almost it'sway different than I guess I
envisioned Appreciate yousharing that because that just
all came to fruition.

Kenny Massa (19:32):
It just makes me think of your particular event,
makes me think of the movie likeTalladega Nights, or like Ricky
Bobby when he went through atraumatic event.
Comic relief.
Then they, like, had I don'tknow, some type of breakthrough,
even though his real dad wasn'tthe best.
Maybe his real dad was atherapist.

James LaGamma (19:52):
Didn't he say he kept running around thinking he
was on fire and he wasn't onfire.
He took all his clothes off.

Kenny Massa (19:56):
Yeah, but then he put the bag of cereal underneath
the car instead of his drugs,and it made him drive fast.
And then he went through thatevent and that changes his
reaction or whatever.
Just a big therapeutic movie.

Ryan Selimos (20:11):
The Ain't First reaction or whatever, maybe just
a big therapeutic movie.

Francesca Cook (20:15):
The first or last laughter is therapeutic, I
guess.
So kenny the movie critic.

James LaGamma (20:20):
And now, yeah, just that's that's great um.
I like though, where kenny washeaded before before the town,
yeah, before the thing wheredefinitions.
I think is is providing clarityand obviously people can
research this stuff.
But um, hopefully they comefind this.
You've mentioned depression andanxiety.

(20:41):
Can we also go down a similarpath where you can kind of talk
through like what those thingsare?
Because I think all of us werewow and amazed by what we just
learned and I think there canalso be added clarity in those
two spaces as well.

Francesca Cook (20:56):
Yes, so depression is very much like
hopelessness, worthlessness,purposelessness, like no hope.
You can't see any hope.
And so, depending on, there'smultiple different diagnoses for
depression, and so I'll just gostay with major depressive
disorder, because that's more oflike an extreme, but, um, not

(21:20):
extreme, but kind of just likethe overview.
But it's like you can't get outof bed and it's lack of
motivation.
Um, just sad, like deep sadness.
And it's lack of motivation,just sad, like deep sadness.
So people get to that point andthen they want therapy, like
how do I stop feeling so sad?
Or sometimes it's like I don'teven know why I'm unmotivated

(21:41):
and can't get out of bed or I amso hopeless.
But I have all this going forme, because sometimes it's just
a chemical imbalance in yourbrain and that's out of your
control.
It could be genetic, it couldbe.
You know, life has happened andnow you're in this place.
There's a lot of differentreasons, um, and then for
anxiety.
Anxiety is constant worry, umlooping in your mind.

(22:03):
Um, now, obsessive compulsivedisorder can also be like that
Cause there's ruminatingthoughts that way.
But anxiety is kind of justlike fear based and, like I said
, just thoughts running throughyour mind.
You're up at night You'reconstantly thinking.
Now, generalized anxiety iskind of a general anxiety of
like anything.

(22:23):
Could you just anxious abouteverything where, like, there's
other specific anxieties thatare also able to be diagnosed.
But I'm just kind of going offgeneralities with the major
depressive and the generalizedanxiety because they're kind of
like an overview.

Kenny Massa (22:42):
I have a followup to the depression one.
We can probably break this intotwo.
So depression Now, if someoneis is depressed, let's's.
Let's say it's not a geneticissue like this.
This isn't a long tail thingyeah do you have go to?
because a lot of times I thinkthey need to change their
behavior, something that they'redoing on a day-to-day right.

(23:05):
They're in this slump orthey're causing themselves to
probably get further and furtherdown a process of deeper
depression.
So are there things that youtell them to do, or are there
activities that one can do thatcould change their state and
start to flip the script forthem and move them, at least

(23:26):
physically, towards a placewhere they're not in depression,
or at least try to get them outof that, that issue that's
obviously probably gettingdeeper and worse and worse,
worse yeah, a couple of things.

Francesca Cook (23:39):
Um, one thing is there's a psychiatrist called
dr daniel almond and he's verymuch like brain, like looks at
your brain and it's called brainspec scans.
You guys can look it up later.
It's actually pretty cool and Ican show you what's going on.
But he always says the worstthing a depressed person can do
is stay in bed.
But that's what they want to do.
So I'm encouraging, just get outof bed and then say I got out

(24:02):
of bed today, because sometimesit's that hard that you just
need to give yourself like likeencouragement, like, like, like
encouragement, like, oh, I gotout of bed today, I showered, I
brushed my teeth becausesometimes you're that down and
then my other things that I'lltell people to do is write
checklists of even things thatpeople might think is minimal
but you're struggling withbecause you're so depressed,

(24:24):
like like showering or brushingyour teeth.
Write a checklist and check itoff every day and that's an
encouragement to you that you'vedone something that day that's
been hard for you and just gotout of bed and stayed out of bed
.
So those are a couple of things.
Also utilizing positiveaffirmations of, like you know,
saying something positiveyourself or writing something on
the mirror that's positive toyourself, just to see because

(24:46):
you're.
If you're that down, you'reprobably in a negative loop.
Because if you're that down,you're probably in a negative
loop.
And there may be a reason whySome people say and I haven't
researched this a lot, but somepeople say that guilt and shame
is a high cause.
Guilt or shame is a high causeof depression and staying there.
So it's also in therapy gettingto the roots of that too, if

(25:07):
it's not like a genetic orchemical imbalance.
Fair.

Kenny Massa (25:13):
I have a belief that and this is a belief, so
fair warning there's my policy,whatever it's kenny's belief
that if you're unclear aboutyour future or if you, if you
don't have goals you don't have,you don't have some type of.
I think from getting from pointa to point B is very important,
and point B continues to moveright.

(25:33):
You reach point B, that movesto point C, whatever, and you
continue to scale.
But I have a firm belief thatif you do not know or do not
have the ambitions or theunderstanding, simply the
clarity, to get to point B, ifyou don't know where point B is,
I think that's half of theissue.
If you don't know where point Bis, I think that's half of the
issue.
I think that having on clarityin where you're going or what

(25:55):
you're doing in life not thatyou need to know exactly your
purpose in life, but I thinkthat at least being on the
voyage to figure that out isreally important.
But I think that that causes alot of issues, because I just

(26:19):
feel that if imagine getting inyour car and driving around and
literally not knowing where togo every time you get in your
car, you'd be literally drivingaround aimlessly and I think
that's what people typically endup doing, which then causes
them to become depressed througha negative loop and whatnot, of
negative emotions that continueto follow, but I think clarity
is really important.
Of negative emotions thatcontinue to follow, but I think
clarity is really important.
So is there some sort ofelement to having goals and
having milestones in one's lifeand purpose and finding purpose?

Francesca Cook (26:39):
Yeah, I think it depends on the person too,
because, like I said, there'sdifferent reasons why somebody
could be depressed, and also nothaving purpose could be why
somebody's anxious as well,because they're like I don't
know what's going on with mylife, what's happening, where am
I going, what's going on, youknow, kind of thing in that kind
of negative loop as well.
But yeah, and setting goals isa big thing I do in therapy
because it's like, what are yourshort-term, what are your

(27:00):
long-term?
Where?
Where do you want to be at?
And it doesn't mean that's whatyou have to do, it's just
setting a goal and what do youneed to do to get there?
Like, how can you get there?
And that does help people, um,in the long run, because then
they have something to worktowards fair anyone else have
stuff on depression, because wealso have anxiety to tackle for

(27:25):
um.

Jonny Strahl (27:26):
I'll follow up off your question of anxiety no, no
, yeah, can we just jump into?

James LaGamma (27:30):
I guess with anxiety and I don't want to go
into the realm of peoplewatching this are trying to
figure out and self-diagnoseright, that's obviously you know
, seek professional help.
But if they're thinking, hey,do I have trauma, do I have
depression, do I have anxiety,have trauma, do I have

(27:52):
depression, do I have anxiety,what are the signs?
And like kind of go throughthose differences but then shift
focus to talking on like howanxiety comes about, what causes
it, and those kind of thingsokay, um.

Francesca Cook (28:03):
So yes, definitely seek mental health.
Don't self-diagnose.
People do that enough offtiktok and normally, yeah.
So with anxiety, it could comefrom anywhere.
Really, it's just dependent,like some people have social
anxiety where they don't andthat's OK.
Well, that could come from.
So that has come up a lot moresince COVID I believe.

(28:24):
I obviously wasn't in the fieldbefore that, but it seems like
it has, because people werelocked in a long time and then
they had the fear of goingoutside.
But it seems like it has,because people were locked in a
long time and then they had thefear of going outside.
But with anxiety, generalizedanxiety, could start really
anywhere and it is.
It's just it could be yourbrain, it could be how your
brain works.
It could be that you hadsomething happen to you and now

(28:44):
you're worried about everythingelse that's going to happen to
you, or just like a general fear, I guess, and so it's like
thinking or even like so anxietyis not always bad, right?
So there can be good anxiety.
The good anxiety gets you toget your project done for work
or for school.
You have the motivation where,like, bad anxiety can be

(29:07):
crippling and stop you fromdoing those things because
you're so anxious about them.
Or you're so anxious aboutgoing into a social group where
it's like they're negative loopand you can't even get started.
Or anxiety doesn't always haveto have panic attacks, but
sometimes people will have panicattacks, which is like the
heart rate beating fast and yourchest is tight, you can't

(29:30):
breathe and you're trying tocalm down, and that can also be
like any factor can cause thatto happen.
Now, generally it's likesomething's way on your life or
you just had something bighappen where you're going to
paint, where you're panickingbecause if you stuff stuff down,
it has to come out some way.
So that's a lot of the reasonswhy people have panic attacks,
because it could be likesomething stuffed or something
happened.
They don't know where to go.

(29:50):
But with anxiety, that's like alot of questioning yourself or
what am I going to do?
How am I going to do it?

James LaGamma (29:57):
Why am I going to do it?
How's this going to get done?

Francesca Cook (29:59):
Kind of loops or yeah, that would be.

James LaGamma (30:04):
I don't know if that was a good enough example,
but no, I think it was a greatexample, and even just shedding
light on the fact that there isgood anxiety is something that
again perspective everyone.
I hear anxiety, I immediatelythink a negative thought never,
never that there's a positiveattribute to it, but no, I think
that was eloquently put yeah,and that was really hard with my

(30:26):
new Invisalign to say.
So, definitely not that.
Just it just came to my headrandomly.
Sometimes my brain decides towork, usually after coffee.
But anyways, johnny, you saidyou might've had a follow up
question.

Jonny Strahl (30:42):
You had a few of them, francesca, I think I don't
know if it's more because it'smore talked about, it's taken
more serious.
I feel like the diagnosis forthose who have anxiety is quote
unquote more common, and I wantto use that word very lightly.

(31:03):
I'm not trying to stir the pothere, but is it because it's
taken more seriously or arethere just many more factors in
the world that we're seeingcontribute to anxiety and
comparison, not having a clearand concise clarity around your

(31:24):
goals and that causingdepression?
Um, I'm curious.
Your take your thoughts or isit just simply, hey, because
it's taken more seriously andit's okay to talk about it out?

Francesca Cook (31:35):
loud.
Yeah, that could be part of it.
I have no research on that, Iwill tell you.
I do think that and I know it'sbeen talked about in the mental
health world that a lot of likekid anxiety is or now, adult is
related to social media.
That was coming.
Um, we can have a wholediscussion.
Once you said comparison, dothat just hits social media

(31:57):
right there, because that's allyeah right, it's constant, or
the need for likes, like I'm notliked if I don't get enough
likes.
Or I mean, even in adultsthey're like that, so and or now
the world may be crazy, butit's always been kind of crazy.
We just didn't have access toknow it.
And so I do tell a lot ofpeople if you watch the news,
turn it off.

(32:17):
Like if you're anxious, turn itoff.
Don't turn it on, like, let'sjust do that for a week and see
how you feel, because the news,if you're watching it, or you're
watching it on TikTok orInstagram or Facebook, it's
going to drive you crazy, nomatter if you are diagnosably
anxious or not.
And I do think too, likemedications are more and I am

(32:39):
not a doctor, I don't medicateanybody, I have no say on
medications but the medicationsare more talked about or more
likely to get.
And so then people getdiagnosed with anxiety, because
to be on an anxiety medication,you have to be diagnosed with
anxiety.

Jonny Strahl (32:56):
Yeah, that was kind of a stem from.
The question is, I've noticed,and definitely in the workforce
for the younger generation, alot of them are diagnosed with
anxiety and they have a medicalprescription and whatnot, but it
is very cure.
I was very curious to just getyour thoughts.
But yeah, social media, thenews we go on an hour topic

(33:18):
about that.

Francesca Cook (33:19):
So and there's a lot of pressure.
There's a whole book out there.
It's either called untangled orthere's another one.
There's one on kids and one onteens and how the research does
show that kids and teens areactually more stressed out now
than before, and it does go tothe social media.
But I think it also goes to,like the testing standards that
we didn't.
We had testing, but not likethey have testing, like every

(33:40):
other month, yeah, and sothere's a lot of pressure and
just uh, yeah, sometimes tooit's.
It's what's modeled for youlike, like, if your parents
anxious, you might not beanxious, but like you're modeled
to be anxious, so you're goingto worry.

Kenny Massa (33:56):
Let's step into that a little bit.

James LaGamma (33:58):
Let's have a what .
No, go ahead, Step into it.

Kenny Massa (34:02):
I have a.
I have a question that wasframeworked off of what Johnny
was saying, but what you justsaid kind of with the model
theory also, I would say, easesus into this conversation.
Every individual is different soone individual might have and

(34:23):
let's just look at it from likea I would say like a figurative
threshold.
We can say One person's levelof anxiety may be, or their
bandwidth of dealing withanxiety might be, larger than
another person's.
It might be one person.

(34:43):
A dog can bite at one person.
That might cause severe anxiety.
The other person might be like,oh, he's a friendly dog and
start petting him, which causeszero anxiety.
How does one expand theirbandwidth of the ability to deal
with more anxiety driven eventsand this could be depression
too.
This could be.

(35:04):
It doesn't have to be justanxiety, it could be.
How does one expand and createmore bandwidth?
Or I think in simplest form howdo you get more mentally strong
, Right?
How do you do that in astrategic matter manner to grow?
your mental health and just havethis like, almost like, working

(35:25):
out.
How do you do that?

Ryan Selimos (35:28):
Um, okay, so she's like no tough questions, kenny
um, yeah, well, I would think.

Francesca Cook (35:36):
I think it's learning to notice.
First, like I said before,noticing your emotions, noticing
when you're feeling anxiety,because if you I'm gonna use
anger as an example because it'sa really good one, so anger,
people shove down, but it's acool emotion to explode with.
But if you don't notice you'regetting angry, you're probably

(35:57):
going to explode.
So if you start to notice thetriggers to your anger, or you
start to notice like ooh, I'mfeeling like I'm going to get
really mad, it's like learningto walk away.
So, with anxiety, I would sayit's learning to notice when
you're getting that shakyfeeling or that overwhelm in
your head, and learn to.
So we call it reframing yourthoughts too, of like okay, I'm

(36:19):
anxious, what's true here,what's not true here?
And you've got to like getyourself out of that negative
like loop of like oh my gosh,how am I going to do this?
No, you can do this.
What are you going to do tothis, which is kind of like your
goal setting, and how are yougoing to put it into place
instead of that like negativeloop of like I can't do this, I

(36:41):
can't do this.
That's not true.
If it's like a project for ajob, you the coping skills that
you practice outside of therapyand utilize on a day to day
basis, and notice and learn tonotice the emotional pattern
that comes along with it, to beable to actually do it.

(37:04):
Now, if you're not noticing theemotion, if you're not noticing
what's going on in your body,you can't start to do the coping
skills because you're nevergoing to know you need it.
It's like an alcoholic thatgoes to AA doesn't know they
need they're an alcoholic untilthey go, like admit it and go.
It's the same thing withanxiety, like admitting, like
your feelings are in your body.
Okay, I need to learn to copewith this.

(37:24):
And what is going on in my mindthat's triggering these thought
patterns?
What do I need to do?
What is true, what's false, andhow can I like get my mind to
reframe?
Like I can do this?
And now, what's the next step?
So I think I answered yourquestion.

Kenny Massa (37:40):
Yeah, you did.
I think that someone whofocuses on this and becomes
strategic around it couldhonestly like mentally biohack
their way to being a superhuman.
Mentally I do.
I feel like if you could reallyunderstand that I know you can
play with this I feel like,right, like from a kid clean
slate, from a baby clean slatethere's.

(38:01):
They don't know if they shouldbe have anxiety towards
something or not, because theyhave no.
They have no ability tounderstand what the reaction or
the social norm of the reactionis.
So if they have nounderstanding of what the social
norm reaction is, how do theyreact?
They only react based off ofthe model that the parent places
on them most likely.

(38:23):
Or maybe what's geneticallyprovided to them.
So there might be a geneticresponse.
It might be a model responsefrom the parent.
As the parent, I would say,have the ability to play with

(38:46):
that and provide them in likestrategic, a strategic setting
that continue to expand thelevel of anxiety.
You could have someone thatreally doesn't have anxiety
because you can just like theirthreshold is just crazy in
theory.
Maybe I might argue with thatin theory.

Francesca Cook (39:00):
Maybe I might argue with that a little, so
you're going to argue with itwhy no, okay, so oh, you're
getting into a whole level ofstuff.
That's way longer of a topic.
But in mental health there'swhat's called attachment.
I don't know if you guys haveever heard of attachment style
Educators.

James LaGamma (39:15):
I've only heard about them in emails.
Come on, come on, we're gonnahave one at least okay.

Francesca Cook (39:26):
So, um, attachment styles are
essentially created between zeroand 18 months and it is how
they attach to the parent.
And so, basically, there's fourattachment styles.
There's secure attachment,which you're secure in your
attachment, less likely toprobably have anxiety because
you had a secure attachment base.
Um, insecure attachment, whichis, um, like I'm gonna leave you

(39:50):
before you leave me.
Um, avoidant attachment is likeI'm gonna avoid attaching to
anybody completely, um.
And then there's insecure,avoidant attachment is like I'm
going to avoid attaching toanybody completely.
And then there's insecure,avoidant attachment which, as I
can be, I'm going to leave you,or I'm never going to be with
you, kind of thing, and that'smore than like relational.
But it all it stems and itstarts in childhood, between
zero to 18 months, and that'slike the parents are consistent

(40:14):
or inconsistent, or they knowthat if I cry I'm going to get
picked up, or and that's not tosay, like you know, your kid
can't cry, because they canabsolutely cry.
I mean, kids are going to cry,um, but I know my parent is
there for me.
And then there's the ones thatare unsure or have something
happen in that 18 months of likesome sort of broken home or

(40:37):
some someone dies or somethinglike that, and then your
attachment can.
You can get an attachment soyou'll see, like the blind side
for example, the movie um hegets a new attachment in his
life because he now has this newfamily.
That's consistent and good.
So you can also fix rupturedattachments and your attachment

(40:57):
style can be changed.
Before they used to think yourattachment style could never
change, and so I think kind ofwhat you were saying would be
more of like creating a secureattachment in your child where
they maybe will be less likelyto have anxiety, but also allow
them and I think sometimes iswhat happens is that kids aren't
ever allowed to like fall orfail.

(41:18):
Like parents will come in.
Nope, I'm going to fix this foryou, I'm going to fix this for
you.
Then you're more anxious to doanything too, because you never
learned that it's okay to tofall down and stand back up and
that somebody is there tosupport you though, and so
that's the key is beingsupported too, where, like
sometimes, parents will standover kids and never let them
mess up and never let them failand never let them fall.

(41:40):
But they're not going to growmentally if you're not learning
it's OK to fail, it's OK to fall.
But, you also have that supportbehind you that you can fail and
fall.

Ryan Selimos (41:53):
I don't know if I there's layers.

Francesca Cook (41:57):
Yeah, I think there's definitely layers of it.

Kenny Massa (41:58):
That's a lot of layers you know I'm talking
about, so you touched on both.
So I agree with what you'resaying in regards to like, the
four different aspects of likeattachments.
I guess those would be fourpieces of attachments, so I
agree with what you're saying inthat regard.
Um, I was not looking at itfrom, I would say, as a severe

(42:21):
case in that regard.
I was thinking of it kind ofsimilar to your last statement,
which is like, initially the dogbarks right, the baby doesn't
know whether or not he shouldcry or laugh or what.
So he cries and then you changeyour reaction to that.
Next time the dog barks you'relike, oh, he barked, like yay,
happy, like this is all happy.

(42:41):
And then he's like, oh, Ishould be happy.
So then you change the reactionin that regard.
Now what I'm thinking of isthat's a simple event dog barks
like there's more, morestressful and more anxiety
driven things.
So as you continue to increasethe scale of the event not just

(43:02):
from a dog barking but let's sayfrom I don't know, I don't know
the next, like more severething but you just incrementally
increase that level of severity, in that situation the response
is the same you're keeping thethreshold.
The response is like you shouldbe acting happy for this or you
should not be thinking youshould be.
I would say the.

Francesca Cook (43:21):
The reaction remains constant, but the event
scales, if that makes sense, andthen you're increasing the
threshold yeah, that does makesense, I guess because you were
using anxiety before and likegiving your kid anxiety.
I don't know.
But it's kind of the same thingas like dropping your kid off
at daycare and they're likefreaking out or stay crying, but
you come back or you're likeit's okay, it's good, and then

(43:43):
as they go to daycare they stopcrying yeah and then like on a
more yeah and then, like on amore severe level, you drop them
off at college.

Kenny Massa (43:52):
They're not like freaking out like oh my god, my
family left me because now it'slike you left them for x amount
of months.
Now they're like happy to goaway, not saying that you want
to kick your kid out like rightaway.
I don't know yet, but yeahyou'll find out yeah, but you
know that's what I'm saying.
Is like, can you increase thescale of those events if the
reaction remained constant?

Francesca Cook (44:13):
which then?
Would in theory, I guess, andthis might be a thing in, like
mental health, or just humanphysiology, I don't.

Kenny Massa (44:22):
I don't know.
I might be not talking aboutthe right, correct terms, but
expanding your ability to dealwith these certain circumstances
, which I, I do think,inevitably, I think is what we
all fall through right as youage and you gain wisdom per se.
I think wisdom is thecompounding event of going

(44:43):
through situations,understanding your reaction and
doubling down on understandingthe reaction how you should have
responded, understanding andbecoming aware of their response
, and then wisdom really is justyou understanding your reaction
within that certain situationor whatnot and then you having
an awareness.
So I mean, I think inevitably weall do this at different levels

(45:05):
, like the things that we'redealing with at 30 are not what
we dealt with at 15, becauseit's just different so I think
you're doing it.
Can you just speed it up and bevery advanced at 15 compared to
30?
You know what I'm saying.

Francesca Cook (45:18):
Well, I think the problem with that is you
bring in developmental, yourbrain development and that, and
your brain isn't fully developedas females till 25 and males
are arguably maybe 26, but maybe25.
They go back and forth.
The last part of your brain todevelop is your frontal lobe and
that's kind of more like theregulator.
So that's why when you getadult hormones but you still

(45:40):
have a child brain, it's kind ofpsychotic, interesting, yeah,
yeah.

James LaGamma (45:47):
Not going to name any names.

Francesca Cook (45:49):
But yeah, like, you're like like parents.
You'll hear parents say my teenis a mess and you're like, yeah
, well, can you regulate youremotions because you have a full
brain and if you're not,they're not going to a, but b.
Their brain is not fullydeveloped till they're 25 and so
like the regulating, like thereasoning part of your brain is
kind of the last part to bedeveloped.

Jonny Strahl (46:09):
Interesting yes, jonathan I don't know if this is
far off.
I got a question around, soyou're having one-on-one
diagnosing a child.
While we're on the topic of,like parenting and getting older
, at what point or in your world, in your expertise, like, what

(46:38):
do you do when you startrealizing there's like a
parenting problem or there is achallenge with the at home might
be impacting how that child isacting or is causing he or she
to think or what to do?

Francesca Cook (46:58):
Yeah, so when I work with children I always work
with the parents too.
So I will do like.
So.
Child center play therapyessentially is like I said, the
kid works through build rapportwith the therapist because I'm
this new stranger.
The kid works through buildrapport with the therapist
because I'm this new strangerand then after about five or six
sessions maybe a little bitlonger or a little less,

(47:20):
depending on what's going on Iwill meet one on one with
parents and then we work ontools to do at home as well.
And that's not to say that theparent is or is not the issue,
it's just to help the kid.
And now you might see that theparent can't regulate.
And so you kind of say thosethings gently, like if your

(47:42):
outbursts are angry and loud,your kids outbursts are going to
be angry and loud, so kidswatch everything.
That's why when they hear a cussword at two, they say the cuss
word right after probably.

Kenny Massa (47:57):
It's okay if you're Italian, though right, I'm just
kidding.

Jonny Strahl (48:02):
I am Italian.
What do you mean?
No, it's more for us.

Francesca Cook (48:05):
And from New Jersey, you know the F word's an
adjective, it's just thesentence enhancers Right, but
I'm just using that as a smallexample, because parents oh my
gosh, why did my kid say that?
And it's like because youprobably said it at home.
Like what do you mean?
Obviously, so, yes, and all inall, yeah, I work with the
parents too and help with thatand kind of like.
And one of the things, like Isaid, I work with a lot is kids

(48:26):
need your undivided attention.
They've needed it since thebeginning of time.
They still need it now, even ifthere's more things to do or
more devices to utilize, forsure, yeah, I saw this fun fact.

Kenny Massa (48:36):
Well, I don't know if it's a fun fact or not, but I
saw this fact that millennialsspend three times more time with
babies than previousgenerations.
Is that a known fact?
I don't know if that was trueor not.

James LaGamma (48:52):
Social media shaping Kenny's outlook.

Kenny Massa (48:54):
No, it wasn't social media.

Francesca Cook (48:55):
I'm kidding, it was a article working remotely
probably from social media butyeah, I mean when you think of
it like from covid aspect, yeah,yeah, if you're working from
home technically, yeah, you'rewith your fucking kid, more yeah
there it is, but I think too,like I don't know how that would
be true.

Ryan Selimos (49:10):
I, I didn't see it .
I'm not arguing it.

Francesca Cook (49:11):
I didn't see it.
I'm not arguing it because Ihaven't researched it.
But also, what about the peoplewhere, like before I don't know
the 60s, 70s, whatever yearmoms were always at home?

Kenny Massa (49:26):
That's true.
True, I was thinking about that, while you said that I don't
know I'm going to get canned onsocial for this, but that's
probably true.
I'll come back to you.
We'll do a different segment onthat one.
Let me look at the research onthat one.

James LaGamma (49:42):
I want to piggyback off of Johnny's
comment.
So you're doing kid therapy andyou work with the parents.
My question is when you'redoing adult therapy, someone's
come to you and you're goingthrough the process.
Obviously their world isn'tjust them.
Their world is family, there'sfriends, there's other

(50:03):
co-workers, other things at play.
How in your field do you guysstart to break that?
down start to break that downand then at what point in time?
Or is there ever a point intime where maybe you get others
involved to help this person?

(50:23):
Or is it all on that person totry to like communicate this now
out to other people that don'tknow what's going on with them,
and it's just.
It's an interesting conceptbecause I I know people that go
through therapy.
I have not.
I'm interested.
I may do it someday, I don'tknow, but I'm also genuinely
like invested in theirwell-being.
So like, maybe there's stuffthat I want to help out or just

(50:45):
talk to them about stuff, seehow things are going, whatever,
but I also don't want to intrude, I'm just interested more on
what's.
How does that play out, otherpeople being involved in the
therapeutic process?

Francesca Cook (50:58):
um so, uh, my dog is distracting me.
I'm so sorry.
No problem is too.
Um, okay.
So, yes, you can include otherpeople in therapy.
Depends on your modality fortherapy.
So every therapist looks atthrough a lens in therapy of

(51:20):
whatever their what's called atheoretic orientation is.
So, um, I'm very, I'm aperson-centered therapist.
I would say person,client-centered whatever.
So it's more like whatever theyneed to talk about that day and
work through.
That's what we work on.
I'm not just like down in, likefollowing one theoretical
approach.
I utilize multiple, but itdepends on the theoretical

(51:41):
approach you use.
So you can.
If somebody's like I want tobring my spouse into therapy to
give you another view, okay,well then, we need a release of
information and they can come in.
Or my parent or my child justto get like a different lens.
But it would focus solely onthe individual you're working

(52:01):
with.
If you bring in other peoplenow, you can have couples
therapy, where it's focused onthe couple as a client, and you
can have family therapy, whereit's focused on the family
system.
I am not a marriage or familytherapist, so I don't work with
either one of those.
But in individual therapy Iwill bring in other people, if
somebody wants them to or if itwould benefit the client in any

(52:21):
way.
Friends and coworkers.
I have not done that.
I don't know.
Maybe other people do, andthere's also group type therapy
settings that could involveother people as well.
So there's grief groups,there's grief groups, there's um
anxiety groups, there's workingthrough the holiday groups.
So different people havedifferent groups as well.

James LaGamma (52:42):
Okay and then.
So now you you kind ofmentioned a little bit there If
you think it's going to benefitthe client, you'll suggest to
bring someone in, but you can't,essentially, unless they sign
off on it.
Obviously.
I'm assuming that's the yeah,yeah it would be more.

Francesca Cook (52:59):
Yeah, yeah, correct yeah, it would be more
of a um, them bringing upsomebody, a bunch or something,
and them saying like I wonderwhat it would be like and then I
might bring them in, and so Iguess it's less me suggesting
but more them.
Um, but yeah, they have to signa release of information, even
if the person knows they'regoing to therapy, because HIPAA.

Kenny Massa (53:18):
Yeah, I would think there's a big HIPAA aspect to
that.

James LaGamma (53:21):
I'm more curious on the side of like, say, you
had someone where a bunch oftheir family suggested you
should go see therapy, youshould go see a therapist Talk
to somebody, and then they goand then they come back.
Go see a therapist talk tosomebody, and then they go and
then they come back.
And again, this is moreself-diagnosis.
But the people that ask thatperson to go to therapy still

(53:42):
think that there's somethingwrong.
But that person is now turningaround and saying actually my
therapist is saying you guys areall the problem and it seems
like there's conflictinginformation going on there.
There seems to be no way tokind of fix that.
But I'm just curious has thatever occurred in any of your
clients or anything?
Or that they even share that,or they're manipulating that

(54:03):
information that comes fromtherapy, like because they have
a manipulative personality?
I don't know.
It's just an interestingconcept.
I've thought about it before.

Ryan Selimos (54:10):
It's a very specific situation you've taken
there, James.

James LaGamma (54:13):
No, I've.

Ryan Selimos (54:15):
I don't know what's their name.
Who's their name, who is it?

Francesca Cook (54:22):
I will say that therapy is all from the
individual's perspective.

James LaGamma (54:26):
Yeah.

Francesca Cook (54:27):
So you work through whatever you're told by
the individual and so it's allperspective-based.
Which kind of yeah.
They even say, oh yeah, mytherapist does all this stuff.
Which kind of yeah, cause.
They even say, oh yeah, mytherapist has less stuff, but
their perspective is totallydifferent.

James LaGamma (54:40):
Yeah, I think the reason why I bring it up is
because I've I've heard peoplesay I didn't like my therapist.
I'm going to someone else andso it's making me think, well,
was it really the therapist?

Francesca Cook (54:49):
That's where I'm coming from so sometimes it
could be, and it might benothing that the therapist did.
It could be like you didn'tmesh with the therapist
personality wise, and it's notthat the therapist isn't a good
therapist, it's just personalitywise.
They're not for you and that'sokay, okay.
And then sometimes, um, it islike you got confronted in a way

(55:10):
you didn't want and you don'tcome, or sometimes the therapist
isn't listening, like there'sso many different reasoning
because, just like sometimes youjust got to test your therapist
because not everybody's goingto be for you, and that's okay
if a client doesn't mesh withyou, because you know you're one
way, or your theory.
Again it could be like yourtheory based part of you isn't

(55:33):
what they wanted or what theythought, and and that's OK too.
So there's no real right answeron that because there's many
reasons somebody might switchtherapist.

James LaGamma (55:42):
Yeah, I just it comes down to like some of the
negative connotations aroundtherapy that I've just
experienced through mostly media, like interventions come up and
like now you feel like you'regetting personally attacked, all
these people are telling methat there's something wrong
with me, blah, blah, blah.

Francesca Cook (55:59):
That's kind of where I was coming from, from
that frame of mind, so I justthought it was interesting.
Are you watching that on tiktok?
No, um, what was this?

James LaGamma (56:05):
actually I think, um how I met.
Your mother did make a play atthis.
It was funny.
Obviously it was for comedicrelief, but but they kept having
interventions.
I think literally the episodewas called Interventions, so I
don't know, it was just stufflike that.

Francesca Cook (56:21):
Are you literally asking me if I do
interventions on people?

James LaGamma (56:23):
No, I was taking those negative connotations of
things that I've heard throughmostly media again because I
have not gone through therapyand I don't know much about the
topic area, just to kind ofunderstand what goes on in that
when a negative experienceoccurs with therapy.

Kenny Massa (56:40):
I think it's really important that an individual
and their therapist mesh.
I think, it's super important,but what I do think is a gap in
the market and someone can gocreate a business out of this.
I don don't have enough time,but I would create a business on
this is if you could find andthere might be some platforms

(57:04):
out there that do this in somefashion but if you can find a
way to evaluate the person,understand the strategies and
temperament and just the themeof that therapist and put them
together.
Good, because I think whatpeople do is like I need a
therapist.
They go on Google therapistnear me.
They find a therapist, theycall them.

(57:26):
You have no idea if thattherapist is right for you.
You go through time with thatperson and you invest in
yourself and you invest in thewhole process and it could be
not for you or it could be foryou and it's no one's fault
other than the fact that you'reboth in that area.
But I think that if you couldput together a program,
betterhelp might do this at somescale.
No, no, uh-oh, no, cut thatJust kidding, you're talking

(57:51):
about Tinder for this.

Ryan Selimos (57:52):
This is not sponsored by.

Kenny Massa (57:52):
BetterHelp all right for this is not sponsored
by better help.
All right, I don't think youunderstand how important this is
.
I think that this is probablyone of the most important pieces
to getting help in a, in amatter that is going to change
you, I.
We can look at it like this wedo a case step.
We can have one therapist sitin this room, get with three
different people and you could.

(58:13):
She's in, she's, yeah, but likeI'm talking about now with us
because we're not.
We're all kind of similar andit wouldn't work.

Francesca Cook (58:19):
Yeah, I couldn't do it anyways.
It would be like a you know,conflict of interest.

Kenny Massa (58:23):
Yeah, I think if you got three different people
though that are not like we'retoo similar and our lives have
been together, too much for usto have like different issues
that far apart.
But if you had three differentpeople from three different
places, three different issues,the similar issue, I guess you
can say, but then you treatedthem the same.
You're going to have one personthat has a better result than

(58:45):
another.
But is it because they meshbetter with the, with the
therapist?
And I think if you mesh reallygood with your therapist, I
think that your perspective fromtherapy sessions are resonate
with you stronger.
I think you're, you'rereceiving the information is
more profound, and then you goand do something with it.

(59:07):
But if you leave that therapysession, you're like what the
fuck is that person talkingabout?
Like I don't know, and andyou're like on the fence about
stuff guaranteed you're not onthe fence about stuff guaranteed
you're not going to changeanything, and then that shit's
not going to work.

Francesca Cook (59:20):
So I think that meshing with your therapist is
like one of the most importantpieces that people don't think
about yeah, the therapeuticrapport is, I would say, the
most important piece because yougot to trust somebody and again
it goes back to like feelingsafe to share, to give deep
information, trusting somebodyand like, yeah, that you kind of

(59:44):
described like a blind speeddating for therapy just now, but
I'm going to see you guys later.

Kenny Massa (59:54):
Um, but like flip side of this, you have the wrong
therapist and it's not becauseof anything other than the fact
that you don't measure theperson.
What's the time gap on youleaving that therapist and
finding a new one?
Or do you never go to a newtherapist because now you have?
This poor perspective oftherapy is not for me.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't, I don't know thatanswer.
I just billion dollar businessright there.

(01:00:15):
Good luck to whoever makes it,we'll back you up.
Therapymeshcom.

Jonny Strahl (01:00:23):
Oh my God, I'm going to go, Daddy and I'm
buying that URL right now.

Kenny Massa (01:00:26):
Why did you do this with?

James LaGamma (01:00:28):
BetterHelp?
I'm just curious, because it'slike it's BetterHelp or it's
BetterHelp, I don't know,betterhelp, betterhelp, it's
like like it's better help, orit's better health, I don't know
better help help, okay, I'm notanswering next.
That's fine, that's completelyfine what do you think about
inside out?

Francesca Cook (01:00:40):
inside out too, because you mentioned, I love
inside out and inside out too,and inside out too, was very,
very good.

Kenny Massa (01:00:49):
Like anxiety is like yeah, that is really
anxiety-solving.

James LaGamma (01:00:55):
Personified yeah.

Francesca Cook (01:00:56):
He did really good.
I will say they did a great job.
I don't know what in Noir or inyou.
I guess she's just bored allthe time, I don't know.

James LaGamma (01:01:06):
That's funny.
I actually forgot about thatcharacter in Inside Out 2.

Francesca Cook (01:01:10):
Well, I have all the Inside Out characters in my
office.
I've got like the stuffedanimals and then for Santra we
got them.
I just love him.
He's so cute yeah.

James LaGamma (01:01:22):
Ryan, you've been a little quiet.

Ryan Selimos (01:01:23):
I'm just learning, bro.
I don't have a lot tocontribute to this conversation
Maybe.

Kenny Massa (01:01:30):
I do because I studied science.
Is your coping mechanism tojust make jokes.

James LaGamma (01:01:37):
Is that what you're?

Ryan Selimos (01:01:37):
saying it.
Very well could be.
When I get uncomfortable, Istart making jokes.

Kenny Massa (01:01:42):
That's a real thing that is a real thing Like a
real thing, not real.
Like real, real.

James LaGamma (01:01:50):
Because I do it.
I'm sure I've done it too.

Jonny Strahl (01:01:55):
What was this awkward make?

James LaGamma (01:01:58):
a dad joke something awkward um so I guess
so.
So we've kind of I feel likeit's been a little bit more on
the extremes, like people likethat truly have trauma or truly
have anxiety and all this stuff.
What if someone's justgenuinely curious about therapy
and whether or not they eventhink that they should talk to

(01:02:19):
someone?
I'm going to use myself as anexample.
I've kind of flirted with it,but I don't foresee anything in
my life where I truly think Ican do it and I think there's
maybe a little pride factorthere too, where I feel like I
can not diagnose I don't usethat word.
I have decent self-awarenessreflection capabilities, but at
the same time it'd beinteresting to see what another

(01:02:40):
person says.
And then one thing that alsoholds me back is probably more
the monetary side of things.
I know there's health insuranceI can help out, to which I
don't know if we want to getinto that topic.

Kenny Massa (01:02:50):
But general public person seems to be, I'm probably
not a good topic right now.
We can avoid that one.

James LaGamma (01:03:02):
Um good, good health insurance not a good
topic right now the luigi thingis what he's talking about yeah,
yeah, um but anyways, someonewho feels like they're on the up
and up and they're and they'rekind of in a good space in their
, in their life is is do yourecommend?
Hey, still, maybe go checksomeone out, talk to someone,

(01:03:23):
that kind of stuff, because Iagain I'm on the fence, I don't
feel like I need to have a need,I'm fine today.
My mental clarity seems prettygood, but I'm interested what
you think.
I understand the conflict ofinterest as well too.

Ryan Selimos (01:03:39):
It's like a run-on sentence too.

Jonny Strahl (01:03:41):
She's trying to figure out.

Kenny Massa (01:03:42):
Okay, where do I end up?
Wouldn't that just be like alife coach?
Is a life coach a therapist?

James LaGamma (01:03:48):
That's a good question.

Francesca Cook (01:03:50):
They can be, but no, life coaches don't have to
be therapists, but wouldn't that?

James LaGamma (01:03:55):
kind of like is that more of what synergy?

Kenny Massa (01:03:59):
Like if you didn't have a problem but you wanted to
just, I guess grow would be.
Your, wouldn't a life coach?
Technically be that person.
And then, if they're not atherapist, who do you go to for
positive loop therapy?

Francesca Cook (01:04:20):
A life coach.
A life coach, a life coach, atherapist.
You can go to therapists, workwith.
You know like sometimes peoplejust need to talk to somebody
that's not in their life.
100 and so, yes, you can go totherapy for those reasons um and
life transitions, or just.
I just need to blow off somesteam, like you don't have to
have a major diagnosis.

Jonny Strahl (01:04:42):
I think Ryan has some anxiety right now.
Me, yeah, just a little bit.
You need a life coach.

Francesca Cook (01:04:47):
No, I don't think so right now I'm talking
about life coaches, guys?
No, life coaches, we're out,there's nothing yeah.

Ryan Selimos (01:04:52):
I'm just kidding.

Francesca Cook (01:04:52):
But yes, you can go to a therapist for any
reason.
Guys, no life coaches, we'reout, there's nothing.
Yeah, I'm just kidding.
But yes, you can go to atherapist for any reason.

James LaGamma (01:05:00):
What if you go for no reason, like I don't know
, I'm here.

Kenny Massa (01:05:04):
Sounds like a waste of time.
You're just going to go for noreason.

James LaGamma (01:05:07):
I don't genuinely think I have a reason.

Francesca Cook (01:05:09):
Why am I?
Do I want to go or not?
James, let's be real, you wouldgo, talk I love talking.

James LaGamma (01:05:14):
I'm on a podcast.
That's the whole point.

Ryan Selimos (01:05:18):
Even though my run-on said you could talk to a
wall for an hour, go talk to atherapist.

Jonny Strahl (01:05:22):
Well, I think there's something that you could
better from going to talk tosomebody.

Ryan Selimos (01:05:29):
Different perspective.

James LaGamma (01:05:31):
Sometimes you just don't know either and,
genuinely speaking, I usually goto my friends or family when I
want to talk about stuff.
So I guess I never went to a orjust not licensed, correct.

Francesca Cook (01:05:40):
Correct, but your friends and family are
biased correct which is whywhich is why a counselor can
never be a counselor to theirfriend or their family member
because you're biased, you can'tbe yeah, but what about for
like a like?

Jonny Strahl (01:05:57):
fr hey, I'm working through this.
I'm just curious, can I getyour thoughts on what you would
do?

Francesca Cook (01:06:03):
That's talking to somebody as a friend.

Jonny Strahl (01:06:04):
Correct, it's the way you word it, you know.

Francesca Cook (01:06:07):
I'm not Like friends, like you just said.
You guys counsel one another,but it's not in like a
professional capacity.

Ryan Selimos (01:06:13):
We're not going to Francesca's office.
She said she's sending ussomewhere else, basically.

Francesca Cook (01:06:16):
Yeah, absolutely 100%.
Yes, no, you cannot counselyour friend or your family.

Ryan Selimos (01:06:21):
There you go.

Kenny Massa (01:06:22):
Why?
Because you know too much abouttheir personal life.

Francesca Cook (01:06:25):
Well, it's unethical.
First off In our ethics codesyou can't be unbiased and it's a
power dynamic, right?
So the therapist has so muchinformation on you?
Yeah, it's not even that.

Jonny Strahl (01:06:38):
yeah, it's power dynamic okay, hey, francesca
where can we, where can we findyour, your information?
You know, just around your llcum.

Francesca Cook (01:06:52):
My business is called replenish counseling LLC.

Jonny Strahl (01:06:56):
If you don't want that on, we can always cut it
off.
By the way, I'll just throw youa little.

Francesca Cook (01:07:00):
No, that's fine.
Um, replenish counseling LLC.
I'm out of Daytona, I dovirtual as well, but I have a
website and it's just replenishcounseling LLCcom.
Awesome, and if you search me,I'm on Psychology Today, which
is where you can find counselors, if you need any too.

Kenny Massa (01:07:19):
Psychology Today has them in your area,
psychology Today, so that's agood resource.
Are you going to use that one?

Francesca Cook (01:07:22):
Psychology Today is a good one that you know.
People are on there.
That's how they market, or someother.
There's some other sites.

Kenny Massa (01:07:32):
Mental Health.

Francesca Cook (01:07:33):
Match Damn it.

Kenny Massa (01:07:33):
They stole my thing .
Mental Health match.

Francesca Cook (01:07:36):
What you were describing was totally different
.
That's just like looking atsomebody online and reading
their bio.

Ryan Selimos (01:07:41):
You were speed dating for calendar.
That's literally what you were.

Kenny Massa (01:07:45):
Sounds like a legit business, it's not bad.
It sounds a little interesting.
If we gave you the perfectcustomers every time, I bet your
results would be prettyprofound.
All right.
Next, you would change livesevery time because she's already
changing lives, bro, no everytime they're perfect.

Francesca Cook (01:08:09):
If you can mesh them.
That's the problem.
Nobody's perfect.
And if they're perfect, why arethey going to counseling?

Kenny Massa (01:08:15):
No, they're not perfect.
I didn't.
Nobody's perfect.
And if they're perfect, why arethey going to counseling?
No, they're not perfect.
I didn't say they're perfect.

Ryan Selimos (01:08:17):
I said your abilities and their needs are a
seamless match If speed datingand actual relationships is not
a perfect match, even thoughpeople think it.
The same thing is going tohappen with therapists.
It's people.
People are not perfect, so it'salways going to be a disaster.

Kenny Massa (01:08:34):
You'll be our case study.

Francesca Cook (01:08:36):
That's why people specialize in different
things.
That's why I bring up kids andtrauma and grief a lot, because
that's more of my specialties.
Or sand tray therapy I'mcertified in it, it's my
specialty, so I think that'spart of psychology.
Today We'll say what do youspecialize in?
Who do you work with?
Like I said, I don't work withcouples or families.
I'm not trained in that.

James LaGamma (01:08:55):
Kind of like doctors.
Doctors have things that theyspecify.

Kenny Massa (01:09:00):
I think you can get more granular.
Visit us at therapymishcom.

Ryan Selimos (01:09:06):
No, psychologycom.

Kenny Massa (01:09:08):
No, psychologycom.

Jonny Strahl (01:09:11):
That's backed.

Francesca Cook (01:09:12):
I'm pretty sure somebody already has psychology,
a thousand percent thatdomain's worth $4 million really
, if it doesn't.

Ryan Selimos (01:09:18):
I was telling people to actually go to the
resource that's available todaynot Kenny's made-up one.
Psychology.

Francesca Cook (01:09:22):
Today.

Ryan Selimos (01:09:23):
Oh, psychology Today, sorry, psychology Today,
yeah, go there.
Don't go to Kenny's website,that's not made up yet.
Go there in a couple weeks.
Can you go there in a couple?

Francesca Cook (01:09:38):
weeks, please Well, francesca thank you.

Ryan Selimos (01:09:39):
Thank you so much for the time today, just really,
really educational, like Ithink we all learned a lot and
didn't know what to expectcoming into this and we're
definitely leaving with someinsights and hopefully anyone
who tuned in had a similarexperience.
So just, we appreciate you.

Kenny Massa (01:09:51):
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks, francesca, Thanks forhaving me.
All right, I'll see you guyslater, see ya.