Photographer and artist W.B Fontenot | Best Worst Idea Podcast Episode Two - The Best Worst Idea with Frank Hannah

Episode Transcript
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Frank Hannah (00:00):
The Best Worst idea is a weekly podcast
exploring how our worst ideasoften give way to our best
ideas. What's your best worstidea? Want to find out? Let's go

(00:23):
You're so ugly you can be amodern art masterpiece. You look
like a blueberry. Who's gonnatake his place? See is Jesus.
You this? This is my welcome tothe best worst idea podcast. My

(00:45):
name is Frank Hannah. I'm yourhost. And today, my guest is
another creative mastermind.
He's an LA based photographer.
He specializes in portraiture,and has been working in the
industry for over 15 years. Hisclients have included Playboy LA
Weekly, the Knitting Factory,Interscope Records, and has shot

(01:05):
at least one of holly Madison'scalendars. His photographic
work, has had numerous galleryexhibits throughout the west
coast and even published acoffee table book. That is a
collection of his work withmodel and TV celebrity, Sara
underworld titled muse, aportrait of Sarah Jean
Underwood. Now he's evenventured into novel writing. It

(01:26):
is my pleasure to welcome to thepodcast, WB Fontan up

W.B. Fontenot (01:30):
low. Yeah. And thank you for having me on. It's
good seeing again, yeah, no,

no problem.
There's a lot of things I wantto talk to you about. And
probably things that you forgot,you may have told me over the
years, and now I'm going tobring them back up and put them
in, as you might know, it's likethis podcast is really about
exploring creativity. So theguests that I have on there,
generally people that aren'tjust necessarily creative, but
also explore creativity indifferent ways. And because of

(01:56):
what they do, they have toadjust and do different things.
And that because to me, I thinkcreativity is inherent in
everyone. And a lot of times weend up featuring, or only
hearing about people who whohave some huge creative output
or something, right. But thefact is, if you're solving
problems in the world, you'recreative. I mean, that's the way

(02:19):
that's my position is thatcreativity is just is part of
just the problem solving abilitythat we have, as humans, you
know, as a photographer, wouldyou say that your main,

yeah, has been kind of the backbone for my
creativity. That was the firstthing that I got into. And it's,
I definitely have my 10,000hours, and photography, with
photography, it's a little bitdifferent. Because especially
now everything's soinstantaneous, right? You get
feedback immediately. It's notlike, you know, I've also

(02:52):
ventured into painting. Andthat's something that you can
kind of fudge with and play withover time. So the creative
process can kind of mutate withthe peace. With photography, you
kind of have to go into it, andhave already worked out all of
all of your crappy ideaspreviously, to what you're doing
that day. You know, I wasthinking about this kind of the

(03:14):
topic of, you know, the bestworst idea or, or, you know, the
changing of creativity. And Ithink, with photography,
especially, I'm most of myschooling was it started up in
the Pacific Northwest. One ofthe big things there is, it
seems like everybody takes apicture of a girl with a sword.

(03:35):
It's just inevitable. And ithappens in like, all of relief.
Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it'srampid. It's

the kind of thing you would like paint on the side
of a conversion band. Yeah.

Yeah. Only probably not as cool. Yeah. So,
you know, those are the ideasthat I think you, you know, you
start with, kind of in yourlittle circle, and then you
branch out from there. And youcan take something like that,
and you can, can make it yourown. I mean, photography is very

(04:08):
difficult, because, I mean,everybody's a photographer now.
And

well, that's right. Yeah, that's right. It's
actually one of the things thatis amazing to me, because
technology, as far as, say cellphones has gotten, you know,
it's almost as if there's thisnotion that you don't even need,
like a full frame cameraanymore. Right? It's, it's, if
you go onto YouTube, you know,there's plenty of videos that

(04:34):
saying that DLSR is dead, youknow. And I don't think that
that necessarily means that thatit's all just phones, but that
the majority of it now is phonesand these phones are getting if
somebody is putting thetechnology to use or if somebody
is working on the technology,they're working on it to put

(04:54):
onto a phone they don't really,you know, I mean, there's
certainly great cameras outthere but that's Like, the phone
is the predominant, you know,venue for for this type of
technology. So I think that'sone of the questions that I kind
of had in talking aboutphotography in general, because
the young generation now has noconcept of this notion of

(05:15):
putting film in a camera, takinga bunch of pictures, like if
it's a point and shoot, mostpeople had, then when they put
the film into the photo mat, andthen a week later come back. And
look, they have no idea of whatthey shot was any good until
that moment,

right? Well, I think because I learned
initially on film, actually, thebeginning of my professional
career was on film, I alwaysliken it to if you if you graded
excellence in photography, fromlike one to 10, right, it would
take you a couple of years tokind of get to like a four or

(05:52):
five. And then you'd really haveto study, you know, the
technical aspects of photographyin order to get to a seven. And
then you have your avid ons andyour herb Ritz's. And the you
know, your helmet Newton's, yourguys who are kind of creative
gods that can get to that nineand 10 level with digital

(06:12):
photography, you kind of skipone through five. So you kind of
started a six, right, and thenyou can get to a SEVEN and an
EIGHT with a little bit ofPhotoshop knowledge. But your
nine in your 10s are alwaysgoing to be your nine and your
10s. You know it, I don't careif you're shooting him with a
phone, if you're shooting itwith the hustle blod. If you're

(06:32):
shooting with a four by five, itdoesn't matter if that nine and
10 isn't in you. And if youhaven't worked through all of
your crappy ideas, and all ofthese all of the things that
that don't work, you're nevergoing to get there. So I guess
that's the whole like, well, thecream always rises to the top.
Yeah, there's a lot of

sevens now, well, I have somebody who consider
themselves as an amateurphotographer, and you know, I've
got a DLSR. And guaranteed thepictures that are the most
amazing, at least objectively,are the ones that were just
like, oh, I snapped it in asecond. I didn't like you had
maybe some idea what you weregetting. And then all of a

(07:13):
sudden, holy shit that just cameout great. And you could then
try to recreate the environment.
Like I took a picture of afriend up at Griffith Park at
the observatory, and he waslooking over towards the city.
And the sun caught the back ofhis head and his glasses. And
there was like this greatsunflower as well. And it was
like, yeah, and he hadsunglasses on. And it's just

(07:36):
like, kick ass photo. But youknow, and I didn't. The other
ones weren't bad. But that wasthe one that was like, you could
frame that it was so nice. Likeeveryone loved it. But I
couldn't tell you how it justhappened. Right? Well,

and so you couldn't reproduce it? No. And
so and that's that's the key is,you know, you put something in
your portfolio, and you go outto get hired. And someone really
likes that shot. And they saythis is what we want for our
campaign. Well, if you don'tknow how to reproduce it 1000
times with different models,different pairs of sunglasses in

(08:11):
different locations in the city,you know that?

And that's and that's the problem solving
thing, right guys? And you can'tknow it unless you've solved
that problem. It's kind of youknow, as a writer, it's kind of
I try and tell people, like ifyou're writing a comedy, well,
that comes with its set of, youknow, genre conventions and
problems. Or if you're writing athriller, or a who done it like,
or a romance or rom com whateverit is. These all have these

(08:37):
problems that if all you do iswrite indie thrillers, you may
not come across those problems,because they're just not a
feature of your of that genrethat you're working in. But
something like what you'retalking about, you have to know
what environment requires you isrequired for you to be able to
reproduce that. You know, SidneyLumet, the great director used

(09:00):
to say, I hate style that showsthat was his quota, his I hate
style that shows and it's funny,and then you think, Well, what
does that even mean? Right? AndI remember, there was a TV show
that was on Fox a couple yearsago, and it was called deputy,
okay, since Stephen Dorff playedhim and he was great, but it was
it was the guy like you don'tthis is not like the leadership

(09:21):
material. This is the guy thatjust goes and does what needs to
be done and wherever. Now, theshow itself was fine. Okay, the
thing that drove me crazy wasthat every shot had some
sunflower in it, you know, somekind of light flared into the
lens, every scene, you do thatone really effective time and it

(09:42):
means something but like everyshot is the sun getting, you
know, I mean, you know, and Ithought like why is somebody
not? I mean, this is obviouslysomebody's vision, but like I
just couldn't see why this wassuch a predominant, like visual
footprint of the show, right? Itdidn't see what they And he sent
me a way that was a little bitlike less is more, right. But

I think that anything in repetition, if you
get it down to the point whereyou no longer have to think
about it, yeah, then you'regolden. That's not to say that
there is not time forexperiments to. And, you know,
there were times, especiallywith LA Weekly, because I would
get thrown into kind of someweird things where it's like,

(10:26):
oh, you have to go photographthis band. And they're playing
in the basement of one of theguys apartments. And so you
don't know what the place lookslike, it's not ideal, right? You
don't know the power situation,and you have no budget. So you
know, I show up there with like,little three light pack, and you
try to make of it what you canand be as creative as possible.

(10:47):
Situations like that are reallyfun for me, because it's not in
the studio, kind of youreveryday boring thing.

So what you're really saying is you have to
problem solve. Now also becreative.

100%. And, you know, the last couple years, I
was shooting for the shoecompany ASICs. And when I was in
school, I hated productphotography, it was not my
thing. I, I really liked workingwith people, I felt like there
was an interaction there, thatwas exciting. But when you have
a product, especially a product,like a tennis shoe, or a running

(11:23):
shoe, and you've seen theseevery which way in all
advertising, so to look atsomething like that, and say,
Okay, how can I do this just alittle bit differently. That is
where, you know, like, theproblem solving that you're
talking about comes into. Andone of the things that I did,
one of their campaigns was, Ihad runners wear the shoes, and

(11:48):
we just beat the hell out ofthem went through mud, just I
mean, the shoes were destroyed.
You know, this is what amarathon runners shoes look
like, after they've run, youknow, there's usually some blood
on them. There. Cushions justpretty much failed at that
point. And, and those runnersare kind of proud of those
shoes. They were like a badge ofhonor. So why not show that. And

(12:08):
so I shot a big part of thecampaign with the shoes just
beat up. And it was cool. So youknow, and then then you also
have to the beauty shots, too.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you know,some of the stuff that I did was
it turned into billboards forthe Olympic Village for the
Olympics. And that was prettycool. Seeing that. And that's

(12:30):
just, I mean, then you're just atechnician, you know, you have
50 people telling you what theywant, and you kind of just hone
down into exactly as specific aspossible. Yeah, with little
lighting kicks off of the shoelaces or, you know,

yeah, I think I remember you telling me a story.
A story that you worked withTerry Richardson at some point.

Oh, I know. I know what you're talking about.
It wasn't Terry Richardson. Itwas David la Chapelle.

Okay, so yeah, well, that's even more kind of
exciting. So this idea that he'sgot his guys are just people
that know how to set upeverything exactly the way he
wants it. And then he just showsup and works with the talent and
does that.

Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think it that's an
that's a very interesting time.
In my life, I was photoassisting. And I was just kind
of, I was new to theprofessional photo scene. And to
see, this photographer in Lachapelle was one of those guys
that, you know, I saw his stuffin Rolling Stone. And it really

(13:34):
made me want to be aphotographer. And then to show
up, and to see his process wherehe's much more of an art
director. And, you know, good onhim. He knew exactly what he
wanted. But yeah, everything wasdone prior to him getting there.
And, you know, I look back at itnow. And I say, Well, I'm sure
he had conversations with hisassistants on, you know, what

(13:57):
type of lighting

like where they map until the day and then it's
like, he's somebody making surethat's taken care of. And

yeah, but you know, he didn't have to show up
until four in the afternoon,right? And talent got there at
five 30. And when we were readyto go, and I think there were,
that was like, there was four orfive different sets. And each
one we had Polaroid ID withthree different lighting
examples. And so he would justcome in and say, I like this, I

(14:25):
like this, I'd like this, andI'd like this. And then we would
revert all of them to whateverlighting that what.

That's That's crazy. You just sometimes you
just never know what it reallydoes take a lot of people to to
make somebody look great.

Oh, yeah. Well, and I think that a lot of times
in this industry. People don'tunderstand what goes behind
still images and it's, it is alot more akin to motion than I
think people give it credit for.
The crews are pretty big,especially when you get into
things that are like La chapellelarge where you have a lot of
moving parts,

it's not just a portrait, it's like an entire
set of

things happen.
And there's usually a lot ofstuff going on in that image.
And, you know, I tried to kindof have similar vibe to that in
some of it, especially some ofmy kind of earlier stuff, where
it looked like mass chaos. Butit was a very controlled chaos.
Right? And, and I knew exactlywhat all of the lights were
doing, and I knew where peopleneeded to be.

So let me ask you a question like, so on a on a
type of shot like that. It'skind of in that la Chapelle kind
of chaotic? Yeah. You have thisgiant group of people that all
seem to be living in their ownstory in their own world. Right.
Right. All of them are prettymuch tack sharp, what do they
call that? Like?

hyperfocal?
Distance? Yeah, yeah. hyperfocalis, yeah, it's a real thing.

You sometimes see focus stacking where you like,
you'd have different things atdifferent places. And then
you're, you're processing theimage so that everybody's in,
it's kind of like the whole likedie optic lens thing that in
film where right have to try andhide this shitty blurry line up
the middle of the screen. But toget to people and focus that are
not anywhere near

right there on different planes. Yeah, yeah,
um, you know, I've done it bothways. There's some of the stuff
that I've shot, I'm just farback enough, I'm using a wider
lens, usually, you know, you'reshooting at a pretty high
aperture. And when you can dothat, and you know, where you're
focusing, because wherever yourfoot you focus, you're getting a

(16:34):
third and front two thirdsbehind is your that's your depth
of field. So if you, you know,kind of just do the math.

And that's really do you think that's also kind of
where a flash photography reallyshines? Because you can't really
have that kind of a highaperture shot with bright studio
lights going, like you needsomething that's going to be

you need to pump into, right, right? Yeah, it
needs to be pretty considerable,in some instances. And, you
know, for any, like, large groupshots for, you know, LA Weekly,
or even for Playboy. I did a fewfor playboy.com. That, well, I
mean, they were all on differentplanes. And yeah, I had to crank

(17:18):
light into him. And for thingslike that, we would use these
lights called by tube, which is,you'd have two stroke heads in
one light, holy shit. Yeah. Soyou could get, you know, 220 400
watt second packs on it. Soessentially, it's a 4800 watt,
second light. And that that wascrazy.

That's where the Voodoo of it all comes to me
because I love available lightin cameras, like, where if I'm
shooting something, beforephones, you know, I had a lot of
family members that would takepictures, and they'd all put the
auto flash on their cameras, andI would I walk around going turn
off this right off this flashturn of this flash, and then
they would use available light,and it would be like, Oh, wow,

(18:01):
this picture is so much better.
And I'm like, Yeah, cuz you'renot blowing out the entire
thing, you know. So that's kindof changed a little bit where
you can adjust the flash on aphone, right? It's just

gonna do what it's like.

It's really way more than just pointing and
shooting. I mean, there's justso many things like and one of
the things as a photographer,I'm sure you've seen this is,
there are times when you'll meetsomebody, really, that you're
supposed to photograph. Andyou'll think this person is like
not, they're not attractive, ina conventional way, or they

(18:36):
don't look attractive, andyou're thinking of the camera
can only do so much, right?
However, when you take a pictureof them, it somehow transforms
them into something else. AndI'm not talking about with like
fancy lighting and makeup andall that. But they're
photogenic, you take theirpicture, and then all of a
sudden, this other person, I'veseen that happen, and it just

(18:57):
blows my mind. I can. And noteveryone's like that, right?
Because then there are otherpeople that, you know, they're,
they're beautiful, but then thecamera takes a picture of them.
And instead of enhancing theirbeauty, it kind of makes them
seem plastic. Right? Like almosttoo much.

Yeah, no, I understand exactly what you're
saying. And yeah, there arecertain people I have
photographed and it's like, Man,this dude has a great mug, like
it just comes across. And youknow, like, that goes back to of
course, you know, you also haveto know what light is going to
benefit you in those in thosescenarios. Yeah, I you know,

(19:39):
back to really quick, the strobeverse just natural light. I love
natural light as well. And it'svery well it's a hell of a lot
easier, but it's also somethingthat I find is a little bit
softer at times that I like touse. You know, when you're not

(19:59):
shooting And, you know, it's notnoon, or something like that
strobe lighting was one of thosethings that hooked me on
photography. And I was going tothe Art Institute to Seattle, we
went outside with a littleportable strobe. And, you know,
it was it was filmed. So we tookPolaroid with a hostile blog,

(20:22):
and the sky was this kind ofmuddy blue. And then he was
like, Okay, now we're going tochange the aperture and we're
going to hit him with light, andwe're going to expose for the
light that we're hitting themfor. So in essence, because the
strobes not affecting the sky,you're stopping down on the sky,
so it's gonna darken it. So youshot it and handed the Polaroid

(20:43):
around. And the sky was thisdeep, dark, just gorgeous blue.
And right then, yeah, it wasthat magic, right. And it was it
was that, God I can, I canmanipulate the hell out of these
images. And if, if I can dothat, then I can create my own

(21:03):
world. And that's where, whenyou find you, you know, you have
your, essentially your threebasic tools. So you have your
ISO, your aperture, and yourshutter speed. And with those
things, you can kind of change.
And do you know, and then on topof that, of course, back then
you had your different filmtypes. So not just black and
white, but your vivid color, or,you know, your natural color.

(21:26):
And then you could push processthings.

Now we have the vibrance and the Saturation
Slider.

Right? Well, and we also have all of the all the
filters, right? You know, and Ithink when you start off in
photography, especially, and Iyou know, I think I think people
do this in painting and otherthings, too, is they tend to
lean pretty hard on your filtersor your your little things that

(21:56):
like will flip out an image tomake it look cool. Like you
would cross process it back in aday. And maybe that's because
you don't quite know technicallyhow to get what you're looking
for. So you're just going tochange the color and make it
like creative and fun and weird.
And that's not to say that thosethings can't be used really
well. Right. Right. Like,there's the Beastie Boys, video.

(22:17):
That's like all fisheye lens.
Frickin amazing. But there are alot of people, especially in
photo school that use fisheyelenses and think it's the end
all be all. And it's becausethey don't have an original idea
for the project. Right. So theyuse it to kind of skew the

(22:37):
thing. So they can just fall onthat. So now the fish islands is
their idea. And it's not addingto it. It just is the
creativity.

Right? Yeah, that's interesting, too. I think
there's times where you havelike a wide angle lens. And
you're trying to get thatdistortion off the side. You
don't I mean, it's like, it'sthe opposite. You don't want it
to be fisheye, you're like, Iwant to get as much in this size
I can. But now I'm getting allof this distortion on the side.
Like if I've taken pictures thatwere fine, right? They weren't

(23:08):
great. But then I take them intolike the Camera Raw in
Photoshop, and you startadjusting things, you start
adjusting, you know, thetemperature, everything. And
then you turn it into somethingamazing. Yeah. And that's great,
because that's what thatsoftware can do. But it's not
talent. No, it's It's fine. ButI realized it's like I just kind

(23:32):
of polished a turd in a wayright? Like, in the pictures
look great. But I had to work totry and find a way to enhance
them enough to they look great.
They weren't really greatphotos, per se. Right? It

wasn't it wasn't killer out of the out of the
camera.

Well, no. And if we're talking about like
composition, all right, well,that's another discussion.
Right. But I think that what itkind of leads into is that, you
know, like you say, people canget up to a seven now. Yeah, and
that's one of the great thingsabout the time we live in is
that, but technology is suchthat if somebody says, you know,
say, Well, why don't you make amovie? Or you know, why don't

(24:09):
you film something? Or make alittle short films? I mean, no,
because it used to be I can't dothat because I need like a Super
Eight camera. And then I need torecord the audio, right? And
then I need to get the film andthen the light and it just was
not cost effective. To do that.
I

mean, you're sure it's gonna cost you 10 grand,

right? And now you can do like you could do so much
stuff. Just because technologyhas never been easier to be able
to to explore, you know, thecreative part of you, Visa v you
know film and, and music. Imean, you name it. It's it has
kind of created a whole subculture of mediocrity that yet

(24:50):
somehow gets, you know,trumpeted as something more than
it is right. But as somebody whosays, Hey, everyone's creative.
I feel Like, hey, good for you,you know, I mean, I think

that yeah, and you know, and I view things
like, you know, Camera Raw, andall of these, these are all just
tools in your tool belt. I mean,it's like I was saying with, you
know, you used to have differentkinds of film, right? Well, now
you have programs that can dothose, all those films. And
that's, you know, I don't wantto crap on any of that. I think
that, you know, if you if youhave new tools, use them. Now,

(25:26):
that being said, you know, Ihave seen, like, people who want
to shoot film a lot more now,you know, partially for the
nostalgia, but then they also,they think it's cool. Yeah. And
I think you know, for personaluse, it makes a ton of sense.
Sure. Explorer film, it is fun.
And there is a magic to it. Imean, I remember the first time

(25:47):
I made my black at first blackand white print, and I saw the
image come to the surface andthe chemistry, I was sold
commercially, it doesn't make aton of sense. Because everything
ends up digital anyway.

Right? I mean, I think if you're doing, you know,
kind of art exhibits, andyou're, you know, it's something
that yeah,

if it never sees a computer, Hell, yes, I am all
for it. But as soon as you know,scan it, or take an image of it,
and then you manipulate it inthe computer. Night. Oh, I don't
know why you shot it on filmdoesn't make any sense to me.

So when you first started, you were at the Art
Institute of Seattle on that. Doyou study photography? Yes. So
at that point, you know, you'rephotographing anything and
everything, right? You're tryingto just find out what it is.

Yeah, I'm just playing. And then you know, and
then I went to a small school inSpokane, Washington. And then
from there, I got accepted intoBrooks Institute of Photography,
which was in Santa Barbara. AndI did not plan on staying at
Brooks. I wanted to use theirname to get an internship

(26:53):
somewhere in LA now was that waskind of always the plan I would
so I was at Brookes for about aquarter, and just started
writing emails to peoplecontinuously. And one of the
places I wrote was playboy. And,and I wrote Playboy and I also
would call these studios, sohe's just cold calling
constantly. You cold calledplayboy. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so

(27:18):
were they just one of the peoplethat called that called you
back, and they were the onlypeople, the only people that
were the only people that callme back. This studio managers
guy named Billy did just thenicest guy in the world. And he,
I, I think I beat him down. Andbecause I was leaving messages,
when I was in high school, therewas an issue of Playboy with

(27:38):
Pamela Anderson. And she she wasphotographed in this, this kind
of like beat up old hotel. Thatwas that was the photo spread.
And it has its some of itspretty cheesy, it's her with
like a saxophone and her on topof the hood of this car. And I
remember seeing that in highschool and just thinking this is
it like this. The imagery is sobeautiful. And most of that was

(28:00):
natural light. That is one ofthe things that really edged me
toward playboy. Interesting waswas it that and you know, if you
go up in my room right now thatthat issue is signed by Pam, and
it's hanging on my wall,

yeah. It's kind of topical in a way because that
show Pam and Tommy that was onHulu. Yeah, it was an amazing
show. I thought it wasfantastic. Yeah. And of the two
things about it that were themost kind of revealing. One, I
didn't realize Tom Lee was likethat much of a dick. Like I just
I did not really. I mean, Iguess I knew that he, you know,

(28:37):
listen to your star for thatlong ride, you know, whatever. I
just, I wasn't aware that he wasthat abrasive. The other side of
it was, well, I didn't care whathappened to him, because I felt
like, oh, he'll be fine. She'sthe one you feel like empathy
towards because, you know, she'sjust a small town girl that made
it big. And for all of her,whatever her faults were, you

(28:59):
know, her talent as an actressthat she was trying to break
out. I mean, this is the lastthing you need. And yeah,

and well, and also, I'll just say this, I
mean, the a couple times, I metPam, she was just one of the
loveliest people. That's whateveryone

should be. Sweet.
And so you kind of feel like,you feel like she's the one
that's kind of getting punishedfor it. Yeah. And she did these
photo shoots for Playboy. Andyou know, and pretty much her
career was built around the factthat she was this gorgeous
woman. I thought she was moreappealing to me as the girl next

(29:31):
door than just the vavoom kindof girl. Yeah, absolutely. But,
you know, there's no denying thefact that she was the most
beautiful girl in the world. Andevery guy was like gaga for
Anderson, but because she didthat and then these legal
troubles came up. Now it's likeshe doesn't have a voice at all
right? Like now just because youshowed your body like no one. No

(29:53):
one cares what you have to saylike you don't have any rights.
You've you've already. You'veshown us that Good, just there's
there's nothing left for you toto, you know, complain that you
have no privacy anymore. And itreminded me of this girl I met
in LA many years ago who hadbeen a perfect 10 model. Okay.
And she had done a small photospread for them, which, you

(30:17):
know, she never said, Oh, here'swhere you can find my perfect 10
Yeah, but you do a little websearch and you find it, I'm
like, wow, the photos were fine.
I mean, she was much morebeautiful in person than she
was. In the photo she was, itwas fine. But it wasn't like if
you met her, she was like astunner. She was like, you would
just go, right? There was acharisma there. So much that

(30:40):
you, you know, I would go tolunch with her, and we would
hang out. And it was like, you'dwalk into a place. And we
weren't together. I was justgood friends with her, you know,
I, I wanted to. But and she wasvery sweet. And we'd walk in,
and it was the funniest thingever. Because every single guy
walking in looks at her and wasyou could just see them going

(31:01):
Holy shit. And then they look atme, and they're like, What is
she doing with this fuckingloser? And I didn't look at it
like, Oh, poor me. I'm lookingat it. Like, I just love this,
because I'm not with her. Butyou know, there's a perception,
there's a perception. Butanyway, subsequently, I mean,
she would try and get jobs. Andit was tough for her because she

(31:21):
said, you know, people would doone Google search, and they see,
and I thought, oh, man, thatreally sucked, because she was
quite a bright, intelligentperson that had way more to
offer than her good looks. Butit's really hard to look past
that whenever you can't evenspeak when you see her because
she's just so good looking. Andwhat I was thinking about prior
to this interview was this ideathat nowadays, it's different,

(31:45):
where it's as though becausethere's now there's like, only
fans, where people are attachingthis to their Instagram, and
they're in there. They're havingsex with people, and they're
charging, like a subscriptionfor folks. And they don't think
about it like, well, I'm goingto fuck people on camera, and
charge people a subscription,and then look at it like, well,

(32:07):
this is going to ruin my lifefor doing it. They look at it,
like, No, this is who I am. Andso there's this, the inhibitions
are gone. But the sensitivity isway up, right? So it's like,
they're showing all of thesethings. But they're also very
sensitive to what anyone wouldsay about it, which I think has
something to do with the thegeneration we're in where before

(32:29):
it was people would go, Oh, if Ido this, it'll just destroy my
career, like, damaged goods, ifI do it. Now. It's just not the
case. Which I find that reallyfascinating, where people are
really okay with having, youknow, it used to be I don't know
about you, but it used to becertainly from my perspective
was the number one thing thatyou should never, ever, ever,

(32:49):
ever do film yourself, havingsex like that. That's like on
the master plan. And never everever film yourself having sex.
And now,

yeah, yeah, no, it seems to be pretty normalized
at this point. Yeah.

So you know, and I'm not judging that at all.
It's just, it's just aninteresting observation that
nowadays, it's not the samepeople. I've I know, some people
that have only fans accounts,and I'll say, Aren't you worried
that? You know, and they don'teven have it in their head that
that it may be a problem? Well,maybe it will. Maybe it won't.

(33:23):
But yes, it's interesting that Imean,

hopefully, hopefully, it won't. Yeah, I,
you know, I would love to livein a society where sexualization
of oneself or just sex ingeneral is not deemed kind of a
bad thing, right? I mean,definitely, we have a lot of
bumps to get over when it comesto that. But, um, one thing that

(33:48):
I do need to say about Pam andTommy thing per photoshoot was
that was not at all real. Likehow that happened really, kind
of drove me insane. Oh, I'm sureI didn't seem very, it was very,
it was very different than how,oh, the shoots were at playboy.

And that's something I, I kind of wanted to
talk about, too, because, andeven the stuff you've done for
exhibits, like you're dealingwith models, who are getting
nude on some level at some levelof undress.

Um, well, I mean, first of all, you're working
with professionals. So and evenif you're not, like, even if I'm
shooting someone who's, youknow, more of an amateur model,
it's never just me and them. Imean, that's very rare. You
know, sometimes like, I would gosomewhere and shoot something
for a friend of mine who neededan album cover or whatever. But

(34:37):
you know, when you're dealingwith, especially a publication
like Playboy, you have astylist, a stylist assistant,
you have you know, photographyassistants usually had like two
then you have your makeupartist. Sometimes the producer
would fly in because you know,what I shot for was playboy.com.
And what they called the specialeditions, which was like, I

(34:58):
don't know if you remember that.
We're all pictures. So it'seasy. I'd like to book lingerie
or book nudes, whatever,

none of those really amazing articles. Yeah,

none of those amazing articles. They? Yes. So
there is nothing sexy about theactual shoot,

you pull back the curtain and yes, nothing there.
Because you imagine a waybecause here's the thing, and
maybe it's a credit to thepictures themselves. Because,
you know, I see some of the, Iremember some of the pictures
you had and one of your shows.
And it's, it's obviously verysensual, there's a sexual
element to it, there's like asexual vibe to it. It's not
gratuitous, or, or even reallyexplicit, but it's there. So you

(35:37):
just automatically assume thatlike, this is a vulnerable
moment, how did you get to this?

Where? Well, I think that some of some of that
just has to do with how youconnect with the person. And
that intimacy can be taken assexuality, or, you know, and the
other thing is, is, you know,certain models can just turn it
on. And, you know, they, it's,you're just having a
conversation, and then the guyjust flipped that switch, there

(36:06):
was a story about MarilynMonroe, was a photographer
reporter was on the subway withher, and they were New York, and
they were riding on the subway,and no one was paying any
attention to, you know, the guywas like, Well, how do they not
know that she was oh, I'm notMaryland. He's like, What do you
mean, she's like, what? And thenshe kind of turned into her
perversion of Marilyn Monroe.
And suddenly, everyone's headsturned. Right. And, you know,

(36:29):
certain models that I've workedwith, are fully capable of doing
that, where it's just time toturn it on. And I think, you
know, in a way, it's just likebeing an actor or an actor.
That's that professionalism,isn't it? Yeah, where you can
just flip it on. So and, andit's really cool to see,

when I was in Reno, and we were making the
cooler. You know, it was thefirst time I had spent an entire
time on set while a film wasbeing made. And, and seeing real
professional actors working, andthey all have their own
different style of doing things.
And so there's really no one wayto skin a cat, so to speak. You

(37:10):
know, there's like some actors,before they're seen, they're
just off mumbling to themselves,you know, repeating the line and
doing whatever. And then there'sother ones that are brooding
that you just don't go near,because you could tell. And then
there's the the method actorsthat are like getting themselves
all like, amped up to dowhatever it is that's in the

(37:31):
scene. And, you know, Bill Macywas one of these guys, that I
was so in awe, because they wereall good. I mean, don't get me
wrong, but this bill wasamazing. Because what he would
do be in a scene, and it wouldbe quite emotional, and he would
have to be in quite a state tofilm it. And so you see him do
that. And then you're like, oh,wow, that's like, really, really

(37:55):
cool. And then they'll say, Cut.
You know what, we could changethese lights? Are we need to
turn around, we need to dowhatever we need to do. Give us
five minutes, Bill? Well, yeah.
And he's like, okay, and he justcomes right over. And then he's
like, Hey, Frankie, what's goingon? And I'm like, aren't you
still in this emotional kind ofspot? And he's like, No, I'm
good. And so then, like, theygo, and he goes, and he's just

(38:16):
turned it right back on. And Ijust was like, holy shit.

That's what it see. That's something I'm not
capable of. I'm not capable. No.
And that's why I'm on the otherside of the camera.

Yeah, but it isn't, you know, it's like, you
definitely can feel the theintensity of it, and the fact
that it feels real, even though,you know, and arguably, it is
right, whenever they do that,they can go back and forth, and
back and forth. Whereas there'sother people were there, they
just approach it differently.
Yeah. And I think the having theaccess to that, like turning it

(38:50):
on and off. There was a greatstory I heard, I was talking to
a writer for EntertainmentWeekly, a few years ago, I just
struck up a conversation withhim. And he was telling me that
he had just gotten back from NewMexico where they were filming
Breaking Bad. That was like thesecond season of Breaking Bad.
And by complete chance, I don'tknow if you if you are a fan of

(39:11):
that show, right now. Okay. Sothen you'll know exactly what
I'm talking about. My favoritescene of that entire series is
in season two, and it's whereWalter White goes to Jesse
Pinkman his house because he'sdating that woman, that girl who
is trying to kind of get him outof the you know, and she's a

(39:32):
heroin addict, right? And so hegoes, and he stinks into the
house. And he's trying to figureout what to do. And then she
ODS. And he's standing there andhe realizes if I turn her over,
she'll want to fix the eightherself. And he's standing there
and of course, he's realizing ifI do nothing, she'll die. But it

(39:53):
also solves my problem. So yousee him and he's all emotional
because even He does it. It's,it's killing him. You know, he
just realized he's he's crossingthis huge emotional line like of
his character. Right. So, sothat I love that scene, right?
It just, it's so amazing. Soanyway, that guy, that writer

(40:13):
for Entertainment Weekly. He wasthere while they were shooting
that because he was doing astory on Breaking Bad. Wow. So
they he was just kind ofstanding back happened to be
watching that scene, of courseI'm like, that's my favorite
scene. So tell me tell me tellme. So he starts telling me that
they shot it like a bunch ofdifferent ways, okay, with

(40:36):
different versions of whatWalter White does like one where
he saves or one where, you know,he turns over one and different
things. I can't remember all thedifferent variations, but they
shot at a number of times. Andevery single time they would say
action, then Bryan Cranston islike emotionally just there, and
then cut. And then they do itagain. And he's there again. And

(40:59):
so he back and forth in thatreally intense emotional state.
He just turns it on and off likea faucet. Yeah. And that to me
is like, holy shit, what kind ofalien Are you that you can do
that? So this is a funny story.
I mean, of course, I'm tellingit. Like, it's my story. It's
not it's this guy's story. Okay,so good. He said, they were

(41:20):
going to change something thatwe're going to move the camera
around or whatever. And so theytook a break. And so then Bryan
Cranston sat down on the bed,you know, the bed that Jessie
and the girl were on. And theygot up to do whatever. So he sat
down, and he saw that theEntertainment Weekly guy was

(41:40):
there sending the background,and he knew he was there to
interview him or whatever. So helooks at him. And he just like
packs, the bed next was like,Hey, come on, sit down. So is
that so their CEO of progress isall just, you know, happy,
smiley, jokey kind of guy. Andhe sits down and he's like,
yeah, he's like, that wasamazing. And he's like, yeah,
hey, I want to shoot up. Gear,everything's okay. And that's

(42:06):
crazy that like this is thepeople have that ability. Right.
And I think that's like, that'sa muscle that I suppose you have
to flex a ton of time talkingabout, like, you know, the
10,000 hours. But yeah, so Idon't know how, without a bit of
a tangent, but I do, it's just,I love stories like that,

(42:26):
because it's great when somebodyis able to have access to some
part of their creative self thatis way more than what your
average person would achieve intheir life. But you know,
really, the safe people, forpeople to say that they're not
creative. It's just ridiculous,right? But I mean, not all of us
could ever get to that pointwhere we're able to access that.

(42:49):
But, you know,

well, but I think that comes to kind of, you know,
something that we were talkingabout, while you were setting up
for this, which is, you know,working past the first idea,
right, and taking that and kindof changing it and, and really
just honing your craft, right?
You know, like a lot of modelsthat I worked with that I was,

(43:11):
you know, saying were able tojust kind of turn it on. I'm
sure they spent hours in frontof a mirror. And they've also
had tons of photoshoots. And sothey know what lighting looks
good on them. Right? And theyknow how to position their head
or their body to get, you know,the best results for them. And
that that that they want toshow. And you know, it's the

(43:33):
same thing with, you know,people like Cranston a little
Cranston's amazing. I mean, he'snext level.

I think so I mean, there's other people that are
like I said, I watched Bill doit and, and I've seen other
actors where they're able to getto the emotional place, but then
it's hard to put it back in thebox. Like I, I think that would
be me. I think if I got myselfto some emotional wreck type
state, for a scene, if I was ifI was an actor, which I'm not,
then it would be I'd have totake a week or two. And shove it

(44:06):
with the rest of my feelings.
Zero. Yeah, but yeah, so workingwith Playboy, I think that must
have been a great learningexperience for you as well,
because

like you're Oh, Mao was fresh out of school.
Yeah, I had never been on aprofessional photoset ever. And,
you know, I was I was stillliving in Santa Barbara. So I
was actually commuting to SantaMonica, which was insane, right?
I'm not getting paid, because itwas an unpaid internship. I did
that for three months. I wasthere for two weeks. Just doing

(44:42):
random stuff around the studiountil I was allowed on set. You
know, they kind of want to makesure you're not like just a
super creepy weird. And I mean,it's true. You gotta you know,

yeah, you gotta pass Yeah, to pass these tests.
Yeah. So

when I finally got on set, just the money
amount of lights those guys usewas, I mean, it was pretty
absurd. But yeah, it was, it wascool because it really, I think
at the end of the day was thebest photo school I could have
ever gone to, you know, we hadso many different lighting
challenges that you have to dealwith, you know, suddenly you're

(45:19):
photographing some flightattendant, so you're on a
private plane. So now you haveto learn how to light a private
plane, or you're shooting thedimension tonight, you have to
learn how to like this huge assbuilding. And it's just
constantly new problems. So we'dbe downtown, we'd have to like
blackout an alleyway, right, youknow, now we're shooting a
Ferrari, and they want the, youknow, everything wet. And so,

(45:43):
you know, after getting all ofthat down, it's, you know, now
it can go into pretty much anyscenario and go, Okay, well,
I've dealt with a variation ofthis, right, so we can take it
and I know where to put theglare off the sunglasses
essentially,

did you find that once you had done that work for
Playboy, that that people lookedat you as a photographer of a
certain stripe? Or did was thatlike an issue? Like they are
thinking, Oh, he's a playboyphotographer. So that means he's

certain people definitely do. It depends. If I
talked to people who are likeDPS, or for motion, for the most
part, they're like, Oh, damn,well, you know, light. Right? I
mean, that's, that's the that's,that's kind of the reaction I
get from them. People who don'tknow photography very well, I
don't understand the kind ofmasterclass that Playboy was,

(46:35):
right. So they see it as morelike, oh, you take naked
pictures? And they sometimesYeah, but in you know, when they
can't separate the two, yeah.
And the thing is, is nudity forme is not, doesn't bother me,
male, female, I don't care. And,you know, I went, I studied
abroad for a little bit inFlorence. And, and I live, I
lived in Italy, and nudity overthere is just no thing. You

(46:58):
know, we had a billboard,outside of our, our little
apartment, it was just a nakedwoman on a piece of bread, and
it was for an ad for butter.
And, you know, they, because youwalk down the street, and it's
just statues and naked people.
And so the, you know, there'sthis Puritan aspect of things
here. And, I mean, fact of thematter is, I've done a hell of a

(47:20):
lot more than just playboy. So Iknow at this point in my career,
I think you can kind of tellgoing into something like if
these people are going to be ifthis client is going to be
receptive to that, or if I bringit up. Unfortunately, you know,
you Google me, it's going tocome up. But yeah, I think a lot
of time executive producers, orpeople that have been in the

(47:43):
industry for a while. Theyrespect it, because they know,

like, say you're like doing pictures for screw
magazine. Yeah, no, no boy isthe cream of the crop in terms
of the quality of the pictures.
I mean, some people would saythat are really looking for like
overly sexed kind of smart. Theywould say they would avoid
Playboy, because that's not whatthat is.

No, and, you know, I mean, honestly, if you
look at it now, half the crap weshot in Playboy, is on
Instagram, right? You know,it's, you know, it's barely
covered people on Instagram. Andlike you were saying, I think
there's a normalization of it,which I'm all for. I mean, I
think, I think shunning thehuman body is kind of a weird

(48:28):
thing. In general, I

think there's an interesting movement going on,
and I can't really put my fingeron on on the whys and wherefores
of it. But, you know, I startedwatching the HBO show euphoria,
the amount of male full frontalnudity that is in that show.
Yeah. Is shocking, right? NotNot in a bad way per se, but
it's just that you're just not.
This is like, it used to be thisline, like you could show female

(48:52):
nudity. And you could show aguy's ass on camera, but let's
keep it at that. And here thereis just a complete lack of
giving a shit yeah, and there'ssomething both refreshing about
her and a little odd becauseyou're not you're kind of used
to it if you if you're watchingthe show, and I think that

(49:13):
there's been other shows likethere was a show on HBO called
the deuce which started to kindof go down that road a bit more
and was a little bit more evenhanded about the nudity. And I
think ultimately is a good thingbecause like who cares right but
it is one of those things wherelike you say we are a
puritanical country, right? AndI

you know, in this thing, too, is I'm not also like
it can be, you know, exploitive,right. And so, there are
definite things that you want touse common sense when it comes
to your judgment on it. Butyeah, I you know, I that was a
fantastic way to spend my, youknow, mid 20s through my mid 30s

(49:54):
was was with kind of the Playboyfamily. And then you know, from
there, I had I burned out alittle one photography and ended
up going into painting. And Idid that for a while, really
enjoy that. And then, you know,now I'm kind of trying my hand
at writing. And, you know, whenI was when I was younger, there

(50:15):
was this a little bit of astigma on the jack of all
trades, master of none thing.
And I you know, as you getolder, you just kind of realize,
I'm just gonna do whatever thehell I want to do. Oh, yeah, you
know, my, my wife has alwayssaid, I'm not a photographer.
She's always said, I'm just anartist that happened to pick up
a camera, because that solvedthe problems that I, I had and
told the stories I wanted totell through that medium. And

(50:39):
then it was painting because Iwanted to use texture and
something that was a little morethree dimensional. And so then I
figured out, I'm not Dali, youknow, I can't paint like that.
But I what I wanted to create, Igot to the level that I was able
to do that. And then withwriting, it was kind of the same
way, although this was very mucha happy accident. And this was

(51:00):
really building on what Iconsider a really crappy idea,
right? One of my buddies is Hisname is Tracy Morris. He's a
writer. And he does, he doessome some films and TV and some
other things. And you know,we're, we go on, we have a drink
every once in a while. And he wemet up in 2018. And he said, You
know, when you lived back thelofts, we, we were out drinking

(51:25):
one night, we had like a crazynight. And you told me about
this weird dream, you had thisbridge. And this battle on this
bridge. I had no idea what thehell he was talking about. I was
like, what? And so he starteddescribing it to me. And so you
know, I thought about it forlike a couple of days. And I

(51:48):
came back home. I was like, I doremember that. And I remember
it. But it is a horrible ideafor anything. And, you know, it
was it was essentially, thesepeople who were secluded, it was
this post apocalyptic thing. Itwas so Tropi. And he said, Well,
he's pitching this idea toNetflix for this animated

(52:09):
series. And he said he wants tolike base it somehow around, you
know, this idea of this bridgeand this battle on it. They
said, Okay, well let me throwsome things together. And you
know, I had helped him write acouple of little shorts and done
some other things. And it'salways just been fun. And I
started going on these longwalks. And I would just think
about this, and it became thismassive thing. So I, you know,

(52:30):
kind of very typical me, I wentvery overboard. And I wrote
about 300 pages, oh, this shit.
No, it was a Bible for thisworld. And I got down to the
economy. And you know, I brokedown the Botany of the planet,
you know, all the differentwildlife and, and all the

(52:53):
different characters. And Ibroke down what each of these
episodes would be. And I did itfor like, three seasons 10
Episodes Season and are in soyou know, I brought it to him.
We went out and we met forlunch. I plopped this thing
down. And I was just like, Whatthe hell? This is not at all
what and I'm not a screenwriter,I had no idea. You know, he just

(53:15):
wanted a treatment. He's like,Okay, well, let me take it home.
So he takes it home. And we meetup, like three days later. And
he said, Yeah, you you can't dothis as an animated series,
because they'll They'll ruin it.
Essentially, he was like, Youneed to write this as a novel.
So you have IP, you need to youneed intellectual property. Oh,
yeah. And so he's like, justwrite it as a novel. I was like,

(53:38):
never written anything. He'slike, just do it, you'll be
fine. This guy has so much faithin me, which was just baffling.
And so I, I sat down, I startedwriting. And I think I realized
somewhere in that process, andit's like, wow, because I'd
never written before, right? Butit's like, oh, shit, I just
because I write somethingdoesn't mean it's in stone. And

(54:01):
so I took it with goods, kind oflike the same way I started
painting, where it's like, oh,you're just gonna layer it. So
I'm gonna put my blue down,which is just essentially my
outline. And then I'm just goingto work on it until you know,
and then I'll go in and detailit when I'm done. Yeah, I wrote
the first two novels, through anedit kind of realized they were

(54:23):
too dense. And so I cut those inhalf. So you know, I have my
first four. Oh, yeah, I justcaught the copyright on the
first one back from the Libraryof Congress. It's really cool.
So they're out with beta readersright now.

That's, well, congratulations. I mean, I love
hearing those kinds of stories.
Because the truth is, most ofthe time, you know, people will
say, Oh, you know what, I? Ialways wanted to be a writer. I
just don't have the time. As ifsomehow it's just time. All you
need is just time right and thatthere isn't a process of putting
your thoughts to Gather that insuch a way. And even if they did

(55:01):
want to do it, they never do it.
And so anytime anybody finishessomething, especially a novel,
or even a script is amazing.
Whether it's good or not,doesn't matter, insofar as that
you've gone through thatprocess. Yeah, like I used to
tell people to do and I used todo the, the NaNoWriMo. Have you?
Are you familiar with theNaNoWriMo? No, okay, you, you'll

(55:24):
probably like this. Alright.
It's, it's November, it's theNational Novel Writing Month,
right? And what it is, is youagree to write a 50,000 word
story novel in the month ofNovember, okay. And so you every
day you go and write and thenyou go on to the website, and

(55:47):
then you update your, your wordcount, right? You have to upload
the entire thing. But you know,and so you're on your honor to
say whether you write if you'rehitting it, and so I tell people
to do this. And they're like,Well, what do you get it at the
end? And I'm like, Oh, you get,you get an amazing price. And
they're like, Well, what, whatyou have a novel, you have a
novel, you have a draft. Yeah.
And I would try to tell peoplethat it's really not about

(56:11):
perfection, it's about that you,you will realize how creative
you are. Because if I said youhave to write 2500 words a day,
and you go, Well, I don't knowwhat I'm going to write, it's
pretty soon after you continueto write the word, the words, I
don't have an idea, I don't havean idea, This really sucks. This
really sucks, I am hungry, Iwant to go eat. So eventually,
you're going to get past all ofthat chatter. And then you're

(56:33):
going to get to the other stuffthat's kicking around in the
back of your head, that you maynever get to. If you're not
forced to sit down and just getthe garbage out of the front of
your brain, you can get theother stuff. And when people
have done it, and anybody thathas gone through the process of
writing something like a novel,like they know what that is,
they know that once you juststart going, some of it just

(56:54):
comes out that you have no ideawhere it came, though it
completely takes over right? Andyou have no sense of like, how
did I come to that? Like, howdid that work out, because it
proves to you that the part ofyour unconscious that is
thinking about these things, isputting the connections
together, even thoughconsciously, you aren't so bad
at times, you'll go back andread something, and then you'll

(57:15):
say I need a solution to this.
And you'll realize that you hadput it there all along. But you
just didn't understand that itwas like part of your
subconscious was working it out.
And so I love that type ofstuff. Kudos to you for actually
going through that process.
Because most people they don't.
And even if you did write onemanuscript, it's enough to look

(57:36):
at it and go, Oh, my God, whatam I gonna do with that? Right?
But it's, it's just a great wayto express yourself. And that's
how I look at it in terms of itis kind of forcing someone to go
on a larger scale past the first100 Shitty ideas, yes. And to
see what else is there?

Yeah, well, and I think it's also important, which
has been with all my stuff. Asfar as how it's driven, is, I
get an idea in my head. And theidea will keep tapping the back
of my brain until I make it.
Yeah, and, you know, so a littlebit of, it's just like, it's an
exorcism, and I just need to getit out, right, because we know,

(58:16):
once it's out, then I can kindof move on to the next thing.
But if you know, if I don'tattend to it, it'll just kind of
keep

tapping me. I'm a huge, huge believer in all of
this creative exploration.
Because, you know, one of thethings that you were talking
about there about, you know, howthat your wife says, You're not
a painter, really feeds into myview of the world, which is that
I used to think I needed to bejust a writer, when in actual
fact, it's not that it's, it'san area of creativity, right,
creating things. And that you,you realize, sometimes because

(58:49):
you're forced to that otherthings you do feed your soul in
the same or similar way. And sothat and that, what's great
about it is that then you'relike, oh, wait, I don't have to
just do this one thing. Yeah,that might be really hard to do,
right? Because it might be piein the sky in terms of success.
But there's other things you cando, or an area of creativity

(59:11):
that you can do that, thatreally pays the dividends. And
so I think that that's what Iwant to try and get people to,
to understand and see. Becausenot everybody has a glamorous,
great job, even the jobs that wethink are like, Oh, I wish I
could do that. Like you know,they're still work and they're
still using the mind and, andsolving problems, which

(59:35):
everybody has to do. So anyway,I think this has been a
fantastic conversation. I'm soglad that you were able to take
the time and talk to me again,you have like a lot of insight
into your process, which is whatis so important because people
are process people I know I amI'm like I want to know like,
why did you do that how we do itagain, and if that helps people

(59:56):
out there, and that's great. Sothank you very much for coming
in anywhere anyone can go tofind anything about you

W.B. Fontenot (01:00:05):
know, but there will be soon so yeah, all
started once this thing kind ofgoes through its process I'll
start putting it out and I justsay you mean just practice your
craft

Frank Hannah (01:00:13):
make sure make art Yep, do it right. Thanks
everybody. You If you enjoyedthis content please do me a
favor and like, comment andshare it or you can subscribe to
this podcast by going to www dotBest Worst idea podcast.com

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Photographer and artist W.B Fontenot | Best Worst Idea Podcast Episode Two

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Photographer and artist W.B Fontenot | Best Worst Idea Podcast Episode Two