April 17, 2025 • 20 mins
In recent years, transformation skills have become increasingly important at the board level, with culture and talent rising high on the agenda. Yet, there’s still a noticeable absence of HR professionals in the boardroom. Why?
In this episode of the Better Boards Podcast Series, Dr. Sabine Dembkowski speaks with Devyani P. Vaishampayan, Remco Chair and NED at Norman Broadbent Plc and Supply Chain Coordination Limited, and Independent NED on the Audit Board of ForvisMazars. Devyani is a Fellow at Chapter Zero and a Board Mentor with Critical Eye. She recently exited her AI Innovation Hub, having spent seven years advising corporates on AI, leadership, and the future of work. Before that, she was a global FTSE 30 CHRO with a 30-year career leading complex, multi-billion-dollar organisations.
“It’s still quite rare to find HR professionals on the board… There’s a perception that HR lacks commercial acumen.”
Devyani argues that HR leaders can earn their place at the board table by showing strong business insight—understanding financials, customer impact, and strategic goals. This may involve gaining broader experience outside HR or pursuing entrepreneurial ventures to deepen their perspective.
“Everyone’s talking about AI, but very few realise how fast the change is happening.”
Boards have always dealt with change, but today’s pace, especially with AI and geopolitical shifts, is unprecedented. AI adds speed to transformation and presents both opportunity and risk. Boards must understand their potential while managing risks like bias, data privacy, and employee trust. Devyani warns against overregulation and urges boards to take a more informed, proactive approach.
“Boards need to lead more in culture and talent—and be hands-on.”
According to Devyani, high-performing boards do three things well:
- Engage specialists in culture and transformation to support the executive team.
- Stay connected by engaging directly with employees—some boards spend two days in open forums to better understand workforce sentiment.
- Lead by example, especially board chairs, who should champion values and culture, not just delegate to the executive team.
“Boards need to act as mentors to the executive team.”
While some executives prefer boards to be hands-off, Devyani believes informed boards should act as sounding boards. Chairs can match board members with executives for mentoring, creating deeper support systems without overwhelming either side. Cross-committee conversations and subcommittees can also foster this dynamic.
Top 3 Takeaways for effective boards:
- HR leaders—like CFOs—interact closely with boards and should use that access to build trust and position themselves for future board roles.
- Broaden your skill set. Go beyond your core function to become more valuable and board-ready.
- Get hands-on with AI. Understand its real-world implications for making informed decisions as a board member.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Living with uncertainty, the importance of
transformation, culture andtalent.
Welcome to the BetterBotspodcast series.
The podcast for chairs, CEOs,non-executive directors, company
secretaries, and their advisors.
Every episode is filled withpractical insights and learnings
from those inside theboardrooms.
(00:23):
We discuss what really mattersand highlight actionable steps
you can take to enhance theperformance of your board.
Frequent listeners know that weconduct board evaluations.
In almost every board evaluationwe conducted in the last two
years, we hear about theimportance of trying
transformation, culture andtalent.
(00:43):
And yet, These exact skills arevery often lacking in
boardrooms.
So I'm absolutely delighted totalk with Devyani Vaishampayan.
I hope I pronounced thiscorrectly.
Devyani is REMCO chair and NEDat Norman Broadband PLC and
Supply Chain CoordinationLimited and an independent
non-executive director on theaudit board of Forrest Mazars.
(01:07):
She's a fellow at Chapter Zero,an organization focused on
climate and board directors anda board mentor with Critical
Eye.
Devyani, thank you so, so muchfor making time and contributing
to the BetterBots podcastseries.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
And thank you so much, Sabine, for the invite.
I'm really looking forward tothis.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Devyani, you have served on so many large, really
complex organizations for over30 years as a chief HR officer.
And I frequently see in ourboard evaluations that there is
a gap between the perceivedimportance of HR and the state
of development of real HRknowledge on boards.
(01:48):
First question, why are so fewHR professionals taking a seat
at the top table?
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Well, your rights have been that it's still quite
rare to find HR professionals onthe board.
And I think because there's aperception that HR is a support
function, that HR professionalslack business acumen, and
therefore they can't be a strongpartner to the board.
But I personally think a littledifferently.
(02:13):
However, it also depends, Ithink, if HR professionals
actually demonstrate a fewthings that are different.
The first is it's reallyimportant that you demonstrate a
commercial mindset now it's easyto say that and there is an
opportunity but there are stillsome HR heads who are not part
of the group exec team so Ithink it's really important not
(02:36):
just to be a part of the teambut to think of any business
conversations within the contextof commercials financials
business case impact on thecustomer rather than just having
an internal view and I think oneway to do that is is often to
take up a role outside of HR,which again, probably few HR
(02:57):
professionals have done.
But even, for example, I did amarket strategy role, a market
planning role.
You could do a customer facingrole.
And I think that makes you alittle more rounded.
I think what also helped mepersonally is I was an
entrepreneur for eight years.
So I had to raise money.
I had to run a business.
And then I completed asuccessful exit.
(03:17):
So I think if you keep an eyeout for ways to develop your
commercial acumen, I think HRprofessionals can become more
valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Absolutely.
I mean, particularly in light ofthe topic of this podcast and
what we are seeing, it's reallyimportant that an organization
has the ability to transform.
Culture has become much, muchmore important.
And as we all know, the war fortalent is on.
And in light of all thesechallenges and the sheer speed
(03:46):
of change, we really need theseabilities to And explain to us
why all of this is so crucialnow.
SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Well, I think it's getting really crucial.
And I'm glad you used the wordcrucial because it's not just
important, it's getting crucial.
And that's not because...
change and transformation wasn'thappening earlier.
All organizations have beenfacing, you know, changes in
markets, changing in customers,geographies.
But I think the speed of changetoday is very different, whether
(04:15):
it's geopolitical, whether it'sthe way customer expectations
can overnight change.
And then, of course, we've seenthe last few weeks how tariffs
and completely unexpectedthings, they are big factors and
the organization needs torealign and re-pivot very, very,
very quickly.
And that speed is something thatwasn't seen earlier.
The second factor, I think, thatis contributing to this is the
(04:39):
pervasive kind of influence oftechnology.
Now it's no longer about, oh, atechnology transformation is
your back office or it's aproject.
I think on all fronts, whetherit's your business model,
whether it's customers, whetherit's employees, whether it's
everything, technology is like,you know, not just
all-encompassing, but again, thespeed, gen AI.
(05:02):
So I think what a lot oforganizations are grappling
with, therefore, is how do youhave the right leadership
capability to deal withchallenges which are beginning
to look very different?
How do you have skills andcapabilities within your
workforce which can help youdeal again with this?
And last but not the least, howdo you have a culture that is
(05:25):
far more agile, that is whereemployees still feel engaged,
given that levels of trustbetween employees and management
is decreasing very rapidly.
So the whole issue of cultureand transformation now and the
challenges are looking verydifferent, primarily because of
the speed of change.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
And what impact does AI have on all of this?
probably make it even faster.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Well, I think it's a cliche now, but again, every
second person is talking aboutAI, but very few realize how
swift the change is happening.
And personally, as someone who'sbeen very involved with AI over
the last eight years, I think AIis both an opportunity, but from
a board's perspective, it's alsoa risk.
And so you have to understandboth.
(06:12):
If I look at the workforce,which is really my area of
specialization, there is nodoubt there is going to be an
impact on jobs.
Either jobs will disappear orthey're going to be restructured
and it's happening very quickly.
But equally, I think there is anopportunity here in terms of the
skills needed and thecapabilities which are going to
(06:34):
look very different given howorganization roles are changing.
So jobs are disappearing.
Skills and capabilities need tolook different.
But equally, I think engagementlevels, AI can be an opportunity
to improve engagement.
I mean, some of the AI solutionsI've worked with very closely,
(06:54):
whether it's capturing culture,whether it's capturing
sentiment, but also engagementthings such as coaching,
mentoring, which earlier neededa lot of investment, was meant
only for senior levels.
I think you can deploy AI in avery cost-effective manner so
that you can give it, almostdemocratize the use of it across
(07:15):
a much larger population there.
So there's a huge opportunity interms of leveraging AI.
But equally, I think you need tounderstand the risks.
There's the risk of dataprivacy.
A lot of employee data,increasingly, it's not just
about your name and address.
There's so much about employeesthat organizations now hold.
So the data risk is definitely arisk.
(07:38):
But data privacy, then you alsohave the risk of bias because
the more AI solutions you douse, whether it's for
recruitment, whether it'sinternally for performance, you
are going to have to make surethat bias is not there.
And currently, there iscertainly a level of fear
amongst employees about how AIis going to impact the jobs.
(07:59):
So I think, again, as boards,and I'm really talking as
someone who's a board memberhere, Boards also have to get
far more cognizant about this.
And let me give you a verysimple example.
Just last month, a largeinternational law firm did for
one week, they kind of monitoredemployees, how employees were
using chat GPT.
(08:20):
And they found for a workforceof 1,000 employees, they found
there were 50,000 hits toGrammarly, which is a very basic
AI tool.
There were 32,000 hits for achat GPT, the free one that you
get available.
And what was the response?
They promptly turned everythingoff.
(08:40):
They put in a rule sayinganybody who wants to use any
kind of chat GPT or AI has toget formal permission from the
IT function.
Now, This simple exampleillustrates how most senior
management and boards don'tunderstand how a response like
this is going to alienateemployees.
Rather than acknowledging thisis something that can be useful,
(09:01):
productive, But you have tomanage the risks of making sure
that information doesn't leakout or access to it is done in
the right way.
I think their response is toclamp down.
And this is a very fast changingenvironment.
And so boards have to get farmore cognizant about how AI
needs to be used and deployedand what its impact is.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Let's come back.
I mean, we could talk for hoursalso on AI, but let's come back
to our topic of transformation,culture and talent.
What are effective boards reallydoing to tackle these issues?
What have you seen working?
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
So I think three things that I've seen the boards
I'm working on who are handlingthis well do.
The first is every board I'm on,they brought me in because...
are considered to be aspecialist around culture and
talent.
So I think there is an elementof now understanding that not
every CFO or CEO can really havethe kind of in-depth
(10:01):
understanding of how to managethis change, but also make sure
that the exec team is puttinginto place the right systems,
the processes that they alljoined up and you're therefore
effectively leveraging yourresources in a very focused
manner.
So I think getting morespecialist skills is good boards
are doing more of that.
(10:22):
I think the second thing isBoards are getting far more
hands-on in this area.
So, for example, the board ofbazaars that I sit on, the
entire board gets involved indoing two days of employee
meetings.
This is cross-employee.
It's an open forum.
There's no execs personavailable.
(10:43):
So it's completely open.
And there's a lot of feedbackyou can get from employees on
how they're thinking, howthey're feeling, their concerns,
issues, etc.
The leadership conference everyyear, we had the audit quality
conference every year.
But even strategy, it's notabout the final strategy that
often gets presented to us.
Last year, we attended a two-daymeeting of the exec team.
(11:04):
And so in a way, it was reallyyou're a very hands-on feel of
how are execs really developingthe strategy.
So I think a lot of differenttouch points to get information
around culture, talent,leadership capability, not just
relying on the annual surveyresults which get presented to
the board.
A third example is I'm on theboard of NHS Supply Chain.
(11:27):
And there again, the chair hastaken the lead around values.
So the business is going througha lot of change, transformation,
new set of values, rather thanjust leaving it to the exec
team.
I think the chair has said thisis fundamental, given the change
the organization is goingthrough.
And so I think In summary, theboard needs to lead more on this
(11:50):
area, provide more engagement,but also be more hands-on in
understanding what's happeningon the ground.
SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
That's an interesting point because you
said hands-on at board level.
I know quite some executivesfrom the interviews we do as
part of board effectivenessevaluations say, that have a
real problem if the boardbecomes too hands-on and they
feel that they are oversteppingtheir role.
How do you make sure that thisisn't perceived like this?
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
I think a big difference is, you know, what
are you using that informationfor and how are you using it?
Are you using it to support theexecutives?
Are you using it to inform thembetter?
Are you using it to help themguide into what's next given the
Most exec teams are no longer ina situation where they have
(12:43):
complete clarity on what theyshould be doing.
So you've heard of the veryfamous saying, nose in, hands
out.
So when I meant hands on, what Ireally meant is having more
access to what's happening onthe ground, but using that then
to help the execs.
And personally, I think one ofthe roles now that boards need
(13:05):
to do better is to be a mentorto the exec team.
So it's not just aboutgovernance.
It's not just about performance,you know, kind of being, keeping
a track on how the organization,the exec performances, but it's
also about being available as amentor to them and being
available as a sounding board tothem.
(13:25):
So that's one of the things Ithink I do, but I've also seen
good boards do very well.
And a good chair will alwaysunderstand what are the
strengths of each board membersand almost see whom they could
mentor.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe because I'm HR, ex-HR, I have
to mentor the HRD It could be onone of my boards.
It's the commercial functionthat's going through a lot of
change and transformation.
(13:46):
So I'm mentoring the commercialexec person on the board rather
than HR, for example.
So mentoring, I think, is goingto be increasingly a big part of
a board director's role.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
And how do you do this well, Devyani?
I mean, how can this be donereally well?
So I assume you do most of this,of course, in between the board
meetings.
And how do you develop theserelationships that executives
actually want to be mentored?
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
Yes, I think, again, the tone is set by the chair.
That's really important.
But also the CEO's role is veryimportant.
So NHS supply chain, the CEO isso open and it's almost as if
because he's hungry, The rest ofthe exec team pick up the same
aptitude.
But equally, I'm very consciousthat my role is not to be
full-time with the organization.
So of course, you have themeetings, but because I'm Remco
(14:38):
chair, I have the opportunity touse that to shape the agenda and
to mentor the HRD through theway we set the agenda for
Remcos, with the way papers aredone, the kind of information in
it.
But then equally, technology,what I try and do is We are
doing a big rollout oftechnology at NHS supply chain.
(15:00):
And I try and bring two or threefunctional heads together and
use more of a multidisciplinaryapproach.
And this obviously is done inbetween board meetings, but
conscious of the fact that theyhave a full time job.
So whatever you're working withthem is something that's really
important for the business andimportant to them.
So there's no right or wronganswer.
But I think, again, I'm anexperienced board mentor,
(15:21):
Sabine.
I work with CEOs and seniorexecs.
But I think figuring out what isimportant for the organization
to the exec and making sure youpace yourself accordingly is
very important.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
I wholeheartedly agree.
I just know from manyconversations and from the
interviews as part of the boardevaluations how difficult it is
for some non-executive directorsto really find their feet in
this role.
to find the right tone.
They have so much to offer.
And sometimes I hear, well, itneeds to also be pulled from the
(15:57):
executives to really leveragethis know-how from the
non-executives.
And that is quite often somehownot happening.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
It's often a case of maturity of the organization,
maturity of the exec team.
The tone set by the chair.
I think there's lots ofdifferent factors.
So you have to first get a senseof where is the exec team and
are they ready for this?
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And then what do you do?
Sorry, I'm really interested inthis one.
Do you proactively offer it?
Do you actually pick up thephone or do you schedule some
coffee meetings with executivesto get to know them?
How do you do this?
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
So I think there's a couple of different ways.
So a supply chain, for example,as I said, apart from the
regular board meeting, and it'svery difficult to do it off the
board meeting, to be honest,because that's quite a
structured process.
But the REMCO is a good example.
It's more up to me and wedecide.
And through that, I can pull insome of the right conversations
with different people.
(16:55):
Equally, I'm part of theperformance committee and the
change committee.
And again, those are two touchpoints.
So I think subcommittees oftencan be a good way because you're
going into diving into moredetails there, the subcommittee
level, you're doing it on areasor topics where the execs are
preparing for it.
And if you feel that there issomething else that needs to be
(17:16):
done, or you can almost advisethe exec a little more, then
that provides you a good outletto get into that kind of
relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
No, fantastic.
Sadly, we have to come to anend.
And at the end, always this meanquestion, what are the three
things our listeners should takeaway from this podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
I think firstly, for those HRDs who are listening to
this, I think there is, HRDshave a great advantage, similar
to the CFO, of working with theboard, even when they are in an
exec position.
And I think they should usetheir role really advantageously
to try and shape the agenda,understand how the board works,
(17:56):
but also start positioningthemselves as sounding boards to
the chair around leadershipareas.
Because apart from the CEO, thechair and the board really have
no one else they can rely on.
So you need to make sure you'reusing your role in an exec HR
capacity more effectively toprepare yourself for a further
(18:17):
board role.
But equally, I think, Anyonetoday can't rely just on the
exact skill set.
You have to almost upskillyourself to make yourself more
interesting to boards.
So in my case, for example, whyculture talent was my core
expertise, AI and climate aretwo areas where I've spent time,
upskilled myself, gainedqualifications, and therefore
(18:40):
I'm more attractive to boardsthan I would have been.
So I think upskilling yourselfin different ways is also
important.
And I think last but not theleast, I think AI is going to
have a huge impact onorganizations.
So both as board memberresponsible for the
organization, as well as as anindividual, I think you do need
to continuously make sure thatyou're not attending webinars,
(19:04):
but you're actually getting morehands-on skills so that you
fully understand the potential,but also the risk of AI.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Devyani, thank you so, so much for contributing to
the Better Bots podcast series.
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Sabine.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
This podcast episode is part of the Better Boards
podcast series brought to you byBetter Boards, a provider of
board evaluation solutions.
Get in touch if you would liketo hear more about our work or
if you would like to see a demoof our innovative board
evaluation platform that clientsuse for the internal or as part
(19:39):
of a fully facilitated externalevaluation.
We at Better Boards are alwaysdelighted to hear from you.
So if you have a suggestion fora topic for a podcast if you
would like to be a podcastpartner get in touch as I said
we are always delighted to hearfrom you thank you for listening
Living with uncertainty, the importance of
transformation, culture andtalent.
Welcome to the BetterBotspodcast series.
The podcast for chairs, CEOs,non-executive directors, company
secretaries, and their advisors.
Every episode is filled withpractical insights and learnings
from those inside theboardrooms.
(00:23):
We discuss what really mattersand highlight actionable steps
you can take to enhance theperformance of your board.
Frequent listeners know that weconduct board evaluations.
In almost every board evaluationwe conducted in the last two
years, we hear about theimportance of trying
transformation, culture andtalent.
(00:43):
And yet, These exact skills arevery often lacking in
boardrooms.
So I'm absolutely delighted totalk with Devyani Vaishampayan.
I hope I pronounced thiscorrectly.
Devyani is REMCO chair and NEDat Norman Broadband PLC and
Supply Chain CoordinationLimited and an independent
non-executive director on theaudit board of Forrest Mazars.
(01:07):
She's a fellow at Chapter Zero,an organization focused on
climate and board directors anda board mentor with Critical
Eye.
Devyani, thank you so, so muchfor making time and contributing
to the BetterBots podcastseries.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
And thank you so much, Sabine, for the invite.
I'm really looking forward tothis.
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
Devyani, you have served on so many large, really
complex organizations for over30 years as a chief HR officer.
And I frequently see in ourboard evaluations that there is
a gap between the perceivedimportance of HR and the state
of development of real HRknowledge on boards.
(01:48):
First question, why are so fewHR professionals taking a seat
at the top table?
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
Well, your rights have been that it's still quite
rare to find HR professionals onthe board.
And I think because there's aperception that HR is a support
function, that HR professionalslack business acumen, and
therefore they can't be a strongpartner to the board.
But I personally think a littledifferently.
(02:13):
However, it also depends, Ithink, if HR professionals
actually demonstrate a fewthings that are different.
The first is it's reallyimportant that you demonstrate a
commercial mindset now it's easyto say that and there is an
opportunity but there are stillsome HR heads who are not part
of the group exec team so Ithink it's really important not
(02:36):
just to be a part of the teambut to think of any business
conversations within the contextof commercials financials
business case impact on thecustomer rather than just having
an internal view and I think oneway to do that is is often to
take up a role outside of HR,which again, probably few HR
(02:57):
professionals have done.
But even, for example, I did amarket strategy role, a market
planning role.
You could do a customer facingrole.
And I think that makes you alittle more rounded.
I think what also helped mepersonally is I was an
entrepreneur for eight years.
So I had to raise money.
I had to run a business.
And then I completed asuccessful exit.
(03:17):
So I think if you keep an eyeout for ways to develop your
commercial acumen, I think HRprofessionals can become more
valuable.
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
Absolutely.
I mean, particularly in light ofthe topic of this podcast and
what we are seeing, it's reallyimportant that an organization
has the ability to transform.
Culture has become much, muchmore important.
And as we all know, the war fortalent is on.
And in light of all thesechallenges and the sheer speed
(03:46):
of change, we really need theseabilities to And explain to us
why all of this is so crucialnow.
SPEAKER_01 (03:54):
Well, I think it's getting really crucial.
And I'm glad you used the wordcrucial because it's not just
important, it's getting crucial.
And that's not because...
change and transformation wasn'thappening earlier.
All organizations have beenfacing, you know, changes in
markets, changing in customers,geographies.
But I think the speed of changetoday is very different, whether
(04:15):
it's geopolitical, whether it'sthe way customer expectations
can overnight change.
And then, of course, we've seenthe last few weeks how tariffs
and completely unexpectedthings, they are big factors and
the organization needs torealign and re-pivot very, very,
very quickly.
And that speed is something thatwasn't seen earlier.
The second factor, I think, thatis contributing to this is the
(04:39):
pervasive kind of influence oftechnology.
Now it's no longer about, oh, atechnology transformation is
your back office or it's aproject.
I think on all fronts, whetherit's your business model,
whether it's customers, whetherit's employees, whether it's
everything, technology is like,you know, not just
all-encompassing, but again, thespeed, gen AI.
(05:02):
So I think what a lot oforganizations are grappling
with, therefore, is how do youhave the right leadership
capability to deal withchallenges which are beginning
to look very different?
How do you have skills andcapabilities within your
workforce which can help youdeal again with this?
And last but not the least, howdo you have a culture that is
(05:25):
far more agile, that is whereemployees still feel engaged,
given that levels of trustbetween employees and management
is decreasing very rapidly.
So the whole issue of cultureand transformation now and the
challenges are looking verydifferent, primarily because of
the speed of change.
SPEAKER_00 (05:45):
And what impact does AI have on all of this?
probably make it even faster.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Well, I think it's a cliche now, but again, every
second person is talking aboutAI, but very few realize how
swift the change is happening.
And personally, as someone who'sbeen very involved with AI over
the last eight years, I think AIis both an opportunity, but from
a board's perspective, it's alsoa risk.
And so you have to understandboth.
(06:12):
If I look at the workforce,which is really my area of
specialization, there is nodoubt there is going to be an
impact on jobs.
Either jobs will disappear orthey're going to be restructured
and it's happening very quickly.
But equally, I think there is anopportunity here in terms of the
skills needed and thecapabilities which are going to
(06:34):
look very different given howorganization roles are changing.
So jobs are disappearing.
Skills and capabilities need tolook different.
But equally, I think engagementlevels, AI can be an opportunity
to improve engagement.
I mean, some of the AI solutionsI've worked with very closely,
(06:54):
whether it's capturing culture,whether it's capturing
sentiment, but also engagementthings such as coaching,
mentoring, which earlier neededa lot of investment, was meant
only for senior levels.
I think you can deploy AI in avery cost-effective manner so
that you can give it, almostdemocratize the use of it across
(07:15):
a much larger population there.
So there's a huge opportunity interms of leveraging AI.
But equally, I think you need tounderstand the risks.
There's the risk of dataprivacy.
A lot of employee data,increasingly, it's not just
about your name and address.
There's so much about employeesthat organizations now hold.
So the data risk is definitely arisk.
(07:38):
But data privacy, then you alsohave the risk of bias because
the more AI solutions you douse, whether it's for
recruitment, whether it'sinternally for performance, you
are going to have to make surethat bias is not there.
And currently, there iscertainly a level of fear
amongst employees about how AIis going to impact the jobs.
(07:59):
So I think, again, as boards,and I'm really talking as
someone who's a board memberhere, Boards also have to get
far more cognizant about this.
And let me give you a verysimple example.
Just last month, a largeinternational law firm did for
one week, they kind of monitoredemployees, how employees were
using chat GPT.
(08:20):
And they found for a workforceof 1,000 employees, they found
there were 50,000 hits toGrammarly, which is a very basic
AI tool.
There were 32,000 hits for achat GPT, the free one that you
get available.
And what was the response?
They promptly turned everythingoff.
(08:40):
They put in a rule sayinganybody who wants to use any
kind of chat GPT or AI has toget formal permission from the
IT function.
Now, This simple exampleillustrates how most senior
management and boards don'tunderstand how a response like
this is going to alienateemployees.
Rather than acknowledging thisis something that can be useful,
(09:01):
productive, But you have tomanage the risks of making sure
that information doesn't leakout or access to it is done in
the right way.
I think their response is toclamp down.
And this is a very fast changingenvironment.
And so boards have to get farmore cognizant about how AI
needs to be used and deployedand what its impact is.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Let's come back.
I mean, we could talk for hoursalso on AI, but let's come back
to our topic of transformation,culture and talent.
What are effective boards reallydoing to tackle these issues?
What have you seen working?
SPEAKER_01 (09:38):
So I think three things that I've seen the boards
I'm working on who are handlingthis well do.
The first is every board I'm on,they brought me in because...
are considered to be aspecialist around culture and
talent.
So I think there is an elementof now understanding that not
every CFO or CEO can really havethe kind of in-depth
(10:01):
understanding of how to managethis change, but also make sure
that the exec team is puttinginto place the right systems,
the processes that they alljoined up and you're therefore
effectively leveraging yourresources in a very focused
manner.
So I think getting morespecialist skills is good boards
are doing more of that.
(10:22):
I think the second thing isBoards are getting far more
hands-on in this area.
So, for example, the board ofbazaars that I sit on, the
entire board gets involved indoing two days of employee
meetings.
This is cross-employee.
It's an open forum.
There's no execs personavailable.
(10:43):
So it's completely open.
And there's a lot of feedbackyou can get from employees on
how they're thinking, howthey're feeling, their concerns,
issues, etc.
The leadership conference everyyear, we had the audit quality
conference every year.
But even strategy, it's notabout the final strategy that
often gets presented to us.
Last year, we attended a two-daymeeting of the exec team.
(11:04):
And so in a way, it was reallyyou're a very hands-on feel of
how are execs really developingthe strategy.
So I think a lot of differenttouch points to get information
around culture, talent,leadership capability, not just
relying on the annual surveyresults which get presented to
the board.
A third example is I'm on theboard of NHS Supply Chain.
(11:27):
And there again, the chair hastaken the lead around values.
So the business is going througha lot of change, transformation,
new set of values, rather thanjust leaving it to the exec
team.
I think the chair has said thisis fundamental, given the change
the organization is goingthrough.
And so I think In summary, theboard needs to lead more on this
(11:50):
area, provide more engagement,but also be more hands-on in
understanding what's happeningon the ground.
SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
That's an interesting point because you
said hands-on at board level.
I know quite some executivesfrom the interviews we do as
part of board effectivenessevaluations say, that have a
real problem if the boardbecomes too hands-on and they
feel that they are oversteppingtheir role.
How do you make sure that thisisn't perceived like this?
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
I think a big difference is, you know, what
are you using that informationfor and how are you using it?
Are you using it to support theexecutives?
Are you using it to inform thembetter?
Are you using it to help themguide into what's next given the
Most exec teams are no longer ina situation where they have
(12:43):
complete clarity on what theyshould be doing.
So you've heard of the veryfamous saying, nose in, hands
out.
So when I meant hands on, what Ireally meant is having more
access to what's happening onthe ground, but using that then
to help the execs.
And personally, I think one ofthe roles now that boards need
(13:05):
to do better is to be a mentorto the exec team.
So it's not just aboutgovernance.
It's not just about performance,you know, kind of being, keeping
a track on how the organization,the exec performances, but it's
also about being available as amentor to them and being
available as a sounding board tothem.
(13:25):
So that's one of the things Ithink I do, but I've also seen
good boards do very well.
And a good chair will alwaysunderstand what are the
strengths of each board membersand almost see whom they could
mentor.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe because I'm HR, ex-HR, I have
to mentor the HRD It could be onone of my boards.
It's the commercial functionthat's going through a lot of
change and transformation.
(13:46):
So I'm mentoring the commercialexec person on the board rather
than HR, for example.
So mentoring, I think, is goingto be increasingly a big part of
a board director's role.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
And how do you do this well, Devyani?
I mean, how can this be donereally well?
So I assume you do most of this,of course, in between the board
meetings.
And how do you develop theserelationships that executives
actually want to be mentored?
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
Yes, I think, again, the tone is set by the chair.
That's really important.
But also the CEO's role is veryimportant.
So NHS supply chain, the CEO isso open and it's almost as if
because he's hungry, The rest ofthe exec team pick up the same
aptitude.
But equally, I'm very consciousthat my role is not to be
full-time with the organization.
So of course, you have themeetings, but because I'm Remco
(14:38):
chair, I have the opportunity touse that to shape the agenda and
to mentor the HRD through theway we set the agenda for
Remcos, with the way papers aredone, the kind of information in
it.
But then equally, technology,what I try and do is We are
doing a big rollout oftechnology at NHS supply chain.
(15:00):
And I try and bring two or threefunctional heads together and
use more of a multidisciplinaryapproach.
And this obviously is done inbetween board meetings, but
conscious of the fact that theyhave a full time job.
So whatever you're working withthem is something that's really
important for the business andimportant to them.
So there's no right or wronganswer.
But I think, again, I'm anexperienced board mentor,
(15:21):
Sabine.
I work with CEOs and seniorexecs.
But I think figuring out what isimportant for the organization
to the exec and making sure youpace yourself accordingly is
very important.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
I wholeheartedly agree.
I just know from manyconversations and from the
interviews as part of the boardevaluations how difficult it is
for some non-executive directorsto really find their feet in
this role.
to find the right tone.
They have so much to offer.
And sometimes I hear, well, itneeds to also be pulled from the
(15:57):
executives to really leveragethis know-how from the
non-executives.
And that is quite often somehownot happening.
SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
It's often a case of maturity of the organization,
maturity of the exec team.
The tone set by the chair.
I think there's lots ofdifferent factors.
So you have to first get a senseof where is the exec team and
are they ready for this?
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
And then what do you do?
Sorry, I'm really interested inthis one.
Do you proactively offer it?
Do you actually pick up thephone or do you schedule some
coffee meetings with executivesto get to know them?
How do you do this?
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
So I think there's a couple of different ways.
So a supply chain, for example,as I said, apart from the
regular board meeting, and it'svery difficult to do it off the
board meeting, to be honest,because that's quite a
structured process.
But the REMCO is a good example.
It's more up to me and wedecide.
And through that, I can pull insome of the right conversations
with different people.
(16:55):
Equally, I'm part of theperformance committee and the
change committee.
And again, those are two touchpoints.
So I think subcommittees oftencan be a good way because you're
going into diving into moredetails there, the subcommittee
level, you're doing it on areasor topics where the execs are
preparing for it.
And if you feel that there issomething else that needs to be
(17:16):
done, or you can almost advisethe exec a little more, then
that provides you a good outletto get into that kind of
relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
No, fantastic.
Sadly, we have to come to anend.
And at the end, always this meanquestion, what are the three
things our listeners should takeaway from this podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (17:35):
I think firstly, for those HRDs who are listening to
this, I think there is, HRDshave a great advantage, similar
to the CFO, of working with theboard, even when they are in an
exec position.
And I think they should usetheir role really advantageously
to try and shape the agenda,understand how the board works,
(17:56):
but also start positioningthemselves as sounding boards to
the chair around leadershipareas.
Because apart from the CEO, thechair and the board really have
no one else they can rely on.
So you need to make sure you'reusing your role in an exec HR
capacity more effectively toprepare yourself for a further
(18:17):
board role.
But equally, I think, Anyonetoday can't rely just on the
exact skill set.
You have to almost upskillyourself to make yourself more
interesting to boards.
So in my case, for example, whyculture talent was my core
expertise, AI and climate aretwo areas where I've spent time,
upskilled myself, gainedqualifications, and therefore
(18:40):
I'm more attractive to boardsthan I would have been.
So I think upskilling yourselfin different ways is also
important.
And I think last but not theleast, I think AI is going to
have a huge impact onorganizations.
So both as board memberresponsible for the
organization, as well as as anindividual, I think you do need
to continuously make sure thatyou're not attending webinars,
(19:04):
but you're actually getting morehands-on skills so that you
fully understand the potential,but also the risk of AI.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Devyani, thank you so, so much for contributing to
the Better Bots podcast series.
SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Sabine.
SPEAKER_00 (19:18):
This podcast episode is part of the Better Boards
podcast series brought to you byBetter Boards, a provider of
board evaluation solutions.
Get in touch if you would liketo hear more about our work or
if you would like to see a demoof our innovative board
evaluation platform that clientsuse for the internal or as part
(19:39):
of a fully facilitated externalevaluation.
We at Better Boards are alwaysdelighted to hear from you.
So if you have a suggestion fora topic for a podcast if you
would like to be a podcastpartner get in touch as I said
we are always delighted to hearfrom you thank you for listening
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