March 18, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I sit down with Kevin Eikenberry, Chief Potential Officer of the Kevin Eikenberry Group, to discuss his groundbreaking book Flexible Leadership: Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. Kevin shares insights on why most leadership development programs fail, the importance of integrating mindset, skillset, and habit-set, and how leaders can thrive in an increasingly complex world. Discover practical tools like the Kenevan Framework and learn how flexibility in leadership can drive commitment, adapt to change, and foster better team dynamics. This episode is packed with actionable advice for leaders at all levels!
Kevin’s book, Flexible Leadership: Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence, is available - visit KevinEikenberry.com/gift for free access to his masterclass on building confidence and links to purchase the book.
Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Eikenberry (00:02):
I'm saying to be flexible but isn't like
consistency important.
Yes, consistency is importantuntil it's not, right?
And what I would say is that weneed to be consistent, rigid,
even if you will, on values, onprinciples, and we need to be
flexible on approach.
(00:22):
So there's a difference betweenthe what the how, and to me
that's where the differencecomes, because we want leaders
to be, we want to be able tohave a sense of who they are and
what they're about, and I wouldhope that we can be about
adapting when necessary, whenthe context of our situation
requires us to do that.
Mike Goldman (00:51):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:12):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Kevin Eikenberry is the chiefpotential officer of the Kevin
Eikenberry group, a leadershipand learning company.
(01:34):
He spent over 30 years helpingorganizations and leaders.
From more than 53 countriesbecome more effective.
Global gurus has put them in thelist of the most influential
thinkers on leadership for thelast three years.
His blog and podcast, theremarkable leadership podcast
are among the most popular onleadership.
(01:54):
Remarkable leadership from budto boss and the long distance
leader are among the books he'sauthored or coauthored.
Kevin believes his new book,Flexible Leadership, Navigate
Uncertainty, and Lead withConfidence is his best and most
important work yet.
So that's where we're going tofocus today.
Kevin, welcome to the show.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:16):
Mike, thanks for having me.
You know, it's, it's aninteresting thing to have
coauthors and then say your newbook is your best.
I don't know how my coauthorswho both get a paycheck from me
probably wonder about that, buthere we go.
Mike Goldman (02:27):
Well, and I know Wayne, I have, I interviewed,
one of your coauthors, WadeTurmel on the show, not too long
ago about a remote workforce.
So, after he hears this, he maybe calling you or I pretty
angry, but
Kevin Eikenberry (02:39):
the first
Mike Goldman (02:40):
we'll deal with that.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:41):
okay.
Mike Goldman (02:42):
And he's on your payroll instead of vice versa.
So that, that helps a littlebit.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:46):
correct.
Mike Goldman (02:47):
So, so let's dive in.
and as always, I'm going tostart with the question I always
do, which is You know, Kevin,from your experience, what do
you believe is the number onemost important characteristic of
a great leadership team?
Kevin Eikenberry (03:05):
Well, anytime you ask about the most or the
one, it makes me think of, I canonly take one book on the desert
island.
What book am I going to take?
it's an impossible question.
but I knew you were going toask.
And so I'll go with the firstthing that came to my mind.
And that is that everyone on theteam needs to be committed to
each other and to the mission ofthe organization.
So I would say, if you forced meto pick one, I'd pick
(03:27):
commitment.
Mike Goldman (03:28):
and what would be that one book?
I'm sure it would be, hold on.
Kevin Eikenberry (03:31):
that's not
Mike Goldman (03:32):
no, it would be breakthrough leadership team by
Mike Goldman.
Kevin Eikenberry (03:35):
leadership team by Mike Goldman.
That's what it would be.
Mike Goldman (03:39):
so I want to start with, and I know you cover this
in your book is, you know, I,one of the things as a coach
that works with leadershipteams, most days, all day, very
often I hear we've got to createa leadership development
program.
(03:59):
And the thing I hear second mostis.
Why is our leadershipdevelopment program not working?
You know, everybody thinksthat's going to be, we're just
going to create this wonderfulleadership development program
and we're going to have a bunchof great leaders.
why is it that most of thoseprograms don't achieve what we
think and hope there they'llachieve?
Kevin Eikenberry (04:21):
Well, that's a big question, Mike.
I'll say I've been thinkingabout that question for 30 years
and trying to help organizationsthink about that work through
that for 30 years.
I'll say a couple of things.
First of all, most allleadership development programs
are designed around skills,which makes sense.
We want people to have betterskills.
(04:42):
however skills alone are notreally what we should be trying
to achieve.
So, really, what we want is tocreate a mindset that leads to.
And connects to the skill setlike most leadership development
programs.
There's not.
I mean, there are some that arebetter than others, right?
There's some better content.
Some are using your content.
(05:02):
So they're better.
Some are using my content.
So they're okay.
But my point is.
it's not usually the content.
It's not usually the skills.
Like the problems are on thefront end and the back end.
So we need to have the rightmindset to support the skill
set.
People have to have the rightperspective to say, I understand
this.
I want to do this before we givethem the shiny toolkit.
(05:26):
then the toolkit of course,isn't enough because there's a
big difference between knowingand doing.
And so we believe it's mindset,skillset, habit set and, what's
usually missing is two of thethree.
And so we're pretty good atfiguring out how to teach the
skills or share, share theskills.
Here are the skills.
but we don't think we don't putit in the right context.
(05:48):
And we also treat it like sprayand pray.
Like we're going to giveeverybody the same thing when
not everyone's at the same levelof readiness, which is related
to the mindset piece, right?
Not everyone understands.
Why it would be valuable forthem to get better or what pain
will be erased for them whenthey become more effective
leaders.
So I believe the short answer isthat most leadership development
(06:11):
programs focus on only one ofthe three important things,
mindset, skill set, habit set,and they're only focused on that
middle one.
Mike Goldman (06:19):
And we will come back cause that's a big, big
focus of your book.
It's the way your whole book isreally structured.
Is that mindset skill set habitsset.
So we're going to come back tothat, but I want to go kind of,
you know, step back and stayhigh level for a few minutes and
your book is called FlexibleLeadership.
why did, why was that animportant book for you to write
(06:42):
now?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:43):
Well, I think, you know, you and I are in a
group of people that have been,trying to help.
Leaders get better for a longtime.
And there were people thatpreceded us and we rest, we sit
on their shoulders.
And a lot of people for the last80 or a hundred years have
really worked hard to figure outhow to help leaders get better.
And they've built all sorts ofthings and all sorts of tools
(07:05):
and all sorts of assessmentswith wonderful intention.
And the problem is that most,many of those have led to a
model or a style type.
And the problem is that ashumans.
Styles help us because we arepattern recognition engines.
And if we can recognize apattern, then it helps us
(07:27):
understand something.
The problem is.
Any model is incomplete becauseit's if I collect tractors,
antique tractors, and I alsocollect the toys and I could
have, I could show you a toy.
I didn't have, it's over here.
I could show you a toy right nowthat, that is a model of a
(07:47):
tractor that I own, both ofwhich are older than I am.
Here's the thing.
The model tells us somethingabout the real thing, but it is
necessarily incomplete.
It is necessarilyoversimplified.
And any model that we use inleadership development, in
communication styles, all thestyle stuff built with
(08:10):
tremendously useful intent.
Gets in the way because nowrather than me using that
simplified model to understand alittle bit of something I now
lock in and say that's what Iwell I'm a this kind of leader
or i'm a that kind of leader ori'm a servant leader or i'm a
whatever leader then we arelocked in and can no longer be
(08:30):
flexible.
And in a world that requires,that is more complex than any
model, we have to be able toflex.
We have to be able to adapt.
And so, all of, you know, itties to your 1st question or
your 2nd question about, like,all of these, all this work, all
this investment in leadershipdevelopment.
And yet we don't really get theresults we want.
It's because the world isinherently more complex than the
(08:53):
models.
And so what we need is a way tothink beyond the styles.
I'm not saying that knowing,having some sense of leadership
style, isn't useful.
I'm saying it's incomplete andit's only helpful until it's
not.
Mike Goldman (09:08):
I also think a good example of when it's not
useful is if you think of a diskprofile there, there are, you
know, and I happen to be a highD I, my D is almost off the
charts.
And for those that don't knowwhat that means is I want the
facts.
I want to make a decision quick.
I want to take action.
It's not about Kumbaya.
(09:29):
It's not about analyzing.
Let's make it happen.
And there are leaders that takethat knowledge as opposed to
using that the way I have taughtit.
And I don't do much disc workanymore, but when I used to
teach it, it was all about howdo we use that knowledge to flex
to others, knowing that I mightbe a high D, how do I influence
(09:50):
someone who's a high S?
Well, I need to flex to them.
But when I see leaders doing,which flies in the face of what
you're trying to achieve andwhat you do and in your book is
people use that style as anexcuse.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:05):
I'm
Mike Goldman (10:06):
not a jerk.
I'm not a jerk.
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:08):
right?
You
Mike Goldman (10:08):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:09):
you gotta adapt to me cause I'm the boss.
Mike Goldman (10:12):
Well, and it's also, you know, I, you know, I
know I sound like a jerk, butI'm just a high D that's how I
am.
No, you're a jerk.
So, so, so I love that.
So, and is there something aboutthe environment?
Today that makes being aflexible leader more important.
You know, I always say, Oh, theworld is changing faster than
(10:34):
ever.
I think I'm almost 60 years oldand the world's been changing
pretty fast ever since I wasborn.
But is there something about theworld today that makes this more
important or has it always beenjust as important
Kevin Eikenberry (10:48):
You know, the book marketer in me would say
times are more uncertain thanever and because of that, and I
think there's some truth tothat.
Although.
It's pretty hard for us to knowthat because we didn't live 40
years ago or 50 years ago and wecan read about it or whatever,
but I do think the world ischanging.
You know, we can, we don't haveto argue whether it's more or
faster.
(11:09):
I believe the world is morecomplex because there are more
factors involved.
Like when people were leading ina small community 60, 70 years
ago, there was less diversity ofthought.
There was less diversity ofcustomer.
There was less diversity ofemployee.
There was less diversity andlots of factors.
And so anytime you add that, youadd levels of complexity and a
(11:30):
global workforce and a globalcommunity and a global economy
and all those things.
think those things do play arole.
the other hand, I think that thebest leaders have always
exhibited a number of the kindsof traits that we think about
and talk about in flexibleleadership, being that I have to
be intentional.
What's the situation telling meand how should I be responding,
(11:55):
reacting?
leading, given that context,rather than just saying, well,
this is how I lead or going bymy first inclination, natural
response, high D, high I, highS, whatever, right?
But rather say what'sappropriate, what's helpful,
what's going to be most usefulfor us, for me right now.
And I don't think that's reallychanged.
(12:17):
I just think need for it hasbeen amplified.
Mike Goldman (12:23):
before we, I want to dive into.
the model and your way ofthinking on how we should think
about this, how we should do it.
but sticking again, high levelfor another couple of minutes is
dive a little deeper for me asto how you would define what a
flexible leader is.
and what I want you to take intoaccount when you define it is in
(12:46):
my mind, and I may be thinkingabout it, In, in, in maybe a
different way or maybe even anunhelpful way in my mind,
there's a certain amount offlexibility.
That's probably good.
And then there's a certainpoint, which is God, could we
ever stick to a plan before youchange your mind to go here?
Because I've seen leaders thatare too rigid.
(13:07):
This is our plan.
And I've all seen leaders thatalso seen leaders that chase
every shiny object.
And it's because they are quoteunquote flexible.
So how should we be thinkingabout that?
Kevin Eikenberry (13:18):
So for those who are listening and not
watching, I'm not putting up myhands on both sides of my head.
and so on one end.
We have rigid and on the otherhand we have Flexible or
adaptable or changeable,whatever we're doing to use, and
I would suggest you and this isa core idea of the entire book.
Let's call this a flexor and inalmost every case.
And we've got a whole bunch ofthese in the book.
(13:41):
And I'm sure we'll talk about afew in almost every case.
The ends of that continuum.
Are seldom the right answer.
The right answer is somewherebetween rigid and so flexible as
to not be able to pin the persondown.
that's not what we're afterhere.
In fact, one of the things Italk about early in the book is,
well, there's a conundrum.
There's a paradox here.
(14:02):
I'm saying to be flexible andyet, but yet isn't like
consistency important.
Yes, consistency is importantuntil it's not, right?
And we have to, what I would sayis that we need to be
consistent, rigid, even if youwill, on values, on principles,
and we need to be flexible onapproach.
(14:25):
So there's a difference betweenthe what the how, and to me
that's where the differencecomes, because we want leaders
to be, we want to be able tohave a sense of who they are and
what they're about, and I just,you know, would hope that we can
be about adapting whennecessary, when the context of
our situation requires us to dothat.
Mike Goldman (14:48):
I want to dive into something you brought up
right, right at the beginningwhen we were talking about why.
Leadership development programsdon't work is as we've already
said, your book is separatedbetween the mindset, the
skillset, and then the habitset.
Dive in and we'll, I'm surewe'll dive into some examples of
(15:10):
each of those, but for now, kindof higher level, why did you set
up the book that way?
And just give us a little senseof why those three things are
important versus, as you said,the typical, we're just going to
focus on skillset.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:25):
Well, let's start with the second two,
right?
Because that's where all thefrustration comes with the
leadership development stuff orany kind of training we send
people to, like we gave them theskills, but then they don't go
back and do them.
Nothing changed when they wentback to the workplace, the
difference between knowing anddoing right.
And so there's a differencebetween knowing how to do
something and then actuallydoing it.
Right.
And so that's moving from havinga skill.
And using the skill, creating ahabit set.
(15:47):
And so to me, that's just socritical.
We've known that all of us sortof intuitively know that, yet it
gets missed in all of the, inall of the sort of
organizational work and even thework that, most individuals do
when they leave a workshop orfinish reading a book or finish
(16:07):
listening to a podcast.
Right.
but in front of those things,You can't just lead the horse to
water.
I'm gonna call it not callingour leaders horses.
But we can't just lead our horseto water and say now drink here
it is.
This is really good stuff.
They have to have a sense and aneed and an understanding and a
perspective to say.
This is important.
This is helpful.
(16:28):
There's something here that Ineed to change.
if I believe I have it figuredout, how interested am I in
learning anything new?
I'm not, right?
My mindset is not prepared forthat.
And I find, because, youmentioned earlier, one of the
books that I had the chance toco write a number of years ago
is called From Bud to Boss.
(16:48):
So we've worked a lot of timewith, and frontline leaders,
often one of the biggest gapsfor them is to really understand
what it is that this role isright.
Leadership isn't just being thesmartest one in the room.
Leadership isn't just I know allthis stuff.
And so do it the way I did it.
Leadership isn't to take charge.
Leadership is somethingdifferent than that, but until
(17:09):
people see begin to have aperspective on what it could be,
those skills are of zerointerest or value to them, or
only a limited number of themare, right?
And so that's why we think allthree parts are so important.
I've been sort of preaching thatmessage for a long time, Mike.
And, and so when I got ready towrite this book, I felt like it
(17:33):
was the right way to go.
To sort of frame it all, I
Mike Goldman (17:37):
So give us, so let's start with mindset.
Let's kind of go through eachone of these, to unpack it.
So let's unpack mindset.
How is there, what is the rightmindset or is there an exercise
that our leader needs to gothrough?
how do we build that big why?
(17:57):
So the leader wants to.
So the horse run runs to thewater and wants to drink versus
we leave them there and keeptrying to get them to drink and
they don't want to drink.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:07):
will probably not use that metaphor again,
because I'm not sure it's a verygood one, but that's what came
out of my mouth.
So there was so there we are.
So, so part of mindset is thewhy certainly right?
And we all know the importanceof why, but mindset is more than
that mindset is.
What is this role?
Really?
What is my role?
Really?
How can I have the greatestimpact?
(18:29):
and you know, there's all sortsof great work that's been done
on mindset by people like CarolDweck talks about we have an
abundance mindset and thosethings are all part of it.
But ultimately it's, what is mybelief set?
what it means to lead, and ifthat doesn't match up with the
skills you're going to providepeople later, then that
(18:50):
disconnect will get in the way.
It's not that, it's not thatyour leaders aren't
intellectually smart enough orintellectually equipped enough
to learn the skills.
that's rarely ever the issue.
The issue is one of, does theirperspective line up?
Does it make sense to them, todo this?
Because if you've ever been inany kind of training, and I know
(19:12):
you all have, we're like, thisdoesn't make any sense.
I don't see how I would ever usethis.
Then you're, you don't evenengage your intellectual
prowess, right?
You just say, yeah, okay, we'regoing to get through this.
And in school you had to passthe test, and here you don't
even have to do that.
You just have to get to the end,right?
And then go back to work andkind of do what you always did.
Mike Goldman (19:34):
How important is it?
And it's probably a leadingquestion, but how important is
it?
if an organ, I have a lot oforganizations I work with, look
at, you know, I'm working withthe senior leadership team and
they look at their quote unquotemiddle managers and say they
(19:55):
need leadership development.
and yeah, I do the same thingfor those.
Yeah, they need.
and what I find is, you know,there are so many problems with
that, but the two things relatedto what we're talking about is,
you know, if they need it.
Well, then they're pushing it ontheir middle managers, which is
(20:18):
not going to start off with theright mindset, but it seems to
me like they need that mindsetfirst, because if they're trying
to get their middle managers tomake a habit out of some new set
of skills, they're not going todo it if their leaders aren't
reinforcing it.
So.
How important is it in thinkingabout this to start with CEO and
(20:40):
senior leadership team beforeyou can say, we've got to go
train our leaders to be moreflexible, all of those people
over there.
Kevin Eikenberry (20:49):
Well, so the first thing I was laughing.
There's lots of things you justsaid that I would kind of could
comment on.
I was trying hard not tointerrupt you.
the first thing I would say is Iremember when I was a kid, Mike,
my dad used to say, Kevin,remember when you point your
finger at someone, there arethree fingers pointing back to
you.
So I just started pointing withmy whole open hand, right?
So I solved that problem.
But the point my dad was tryingto impress upon me was that it's
(21:11):
never just about somebody else.
What role in this is yours?
And so.
The they word is always a wordthat makes me wary about the
speaker's willingness to beaccountable.
Because when I say, well, theyneed to, it implies that I don't
need it.
(21:32):
the reality is that even if Idon't, So here's the thing.
A lot of times what thoseleaders will be saying, and we
could do this at any level,right?
CEO to VPs to middle managers,front line leaders, whatever.
What they're saying is, Ialready took that training of
some kind.
I already have those.
(21:53):
But to our whole conversation sofar, it's not about whether you
have the skills, it's whetheryou're exhibiting them, right?
And you said, if my boss isn'treinforcing the training, I'm
less likely to do it, right?
It's harder for me to build anew habit set if my boss isn't
reinforcing it, but more thanjust not reinforcing it.
(22:14):
Are they exhibiting it?
Right?
Not just are they, do they, youknow, sometimes we'll work with
clients and they'll say, well,and we'll say, well, listen, if
you want to help to make thistraining work, one of the things
you need to do is to make surethat the leaders of the leaders
or the, you know, those, who aresending folks that they know the
content, that they know thestuff that they can, an answer
(22:36):
questions, that they can coachon those things.
And all that's completely true.
But a whole nother important,more important level is are they
doing it too?
Right?
Listen, my leaders need to beable to give feedback.
you giving feedback?
Right?
And so, I hate the, I don'treally love the blanket
statement.
We should always start at thetop and roll down.
(22:57):
And yet at some level, based onwhat I just said, that's almost
what you need to do.
Right?
Unless you really do have alevel of leaders that really are
exhibiting those things.
at some level, we need to geteverybody in the same mindset,
skill set and habit set.
It's again, it's not just aboutskills.
this thing about it being aboutthe skills and about taking the
class and having thecertification and marking it off
(23:19):
in the LMS.
It's pervasive and until we getpast that, and it's human
nature, I understand it, butuntil we get past it, we're
never going to get the kind ofleverage from our leadership
development efforts that we'dlike.
Mike Goldman (23:36):
Let's move on from mindset.
To skill set and there's a modelthat you use in the book, which
you use throughout the book in anumber of ways that, that it's
the, if I'm saying it right, isit the Cinefin?
Kevin Eikenberry (23:51):
Cynefin!
Mike Goldman (23:52):
Cynefin, I, it's,
Kevin Eikenberry (23:53):
rhymes with
Mike Goldman (23:54):
yeah, Kevin, the,
Kevin Eikenberry (23:55):
the
Mike Goldman (23:55):
so tell us, yeah.
So tell us about the Cynefinframework because it's so, it's
such a part of your bookthroughout such an important
part of it.
So tell us what that is and whyit's important.
Kevin Eikenberry (24:07):
Well, the father of the Cynefin framework
is a guy named Dave Snowden.
And, he would be, I wouldsuggest all of you follow him on
LinkedIn if nothing else, here'sthe thing about, and the
framework has been around for 25years, but it's usually applied.
organizationally or in groupwork.
And what we're trying to do hereis help individual leaders think
about how to use it.
What it is a framework.
(24:29):
Think about it this way.
If I, if I put you someplace andsay, I want you to get to
someplace else, you'd like tohave a map.
You'd like, well, where am Inow?
And where do I want, where doyou want me to go?
And so the Cynefin framework isa way of making sense of the
context in which we are.
and and this kind of goes back alittle bit, Mike, to the
(24:52):
conversation we had earlierabout how, why now?
And I remember 30 years ago,working for a very large and
very successful organizationwhere there was a tremendous
amount of.
Of effort and time put into bestpractices.
And a lot of organizations haveworked really hard to build on
best practices, understand bestpractices.
(25:13):
And in the Cynefin framework, ifthis, if the context is clear,
best practices are awesome.
We should absolutely be tryingto figure out what the best
practice is.
When we sort of know all of thepieces, we know all this stuff,
then what's the best way to doit.
But how often is it that wereally know everything, right?
There's almost always some stuffthat we know, and if we try to
(25:35):
apply best practices to all theknowns, the unknowns are the
things that keep that fromreally being.
And what we really need to do isfind practices that will
actually work.
So we're talking about the clearcontext or the clear piece of
the framework.
And then now I'm talking aboutthe complicated, the world is
often far more complicated thanit is clear.
(25:56):
And that's where we know thereare things we don't know and we
have to operate in thatscenario.
And yet so often leaders justsay, well, here it is.
I'm going to make a decision.
Let's go.
Cause I have all the data,right?
So I have all the data.
So here we go.
And if it's a clear context,that's a perfectly fine
approach.
But the other parts of theframework are complicated and
(26:18):
then complex, which I believe welive much more in the complex
and complicated than in theothers most of the time.
So complex is when we, there'sthings we don't know, we don't
know, right?
David, Donald Rumsfeld said along time ago, the un, the
unknown and unknowables.
Like we don't even know what wedon't know and so often in a
(26:39):
more complex world.
That's where we're actuallyliving.
And so that so in each of thesecontexts, we need to think about
leading differently.
The 4th one, just to close thegap is one of chaos, right?
If things are in a state ofchaos, everyone is looking for
someone to just say, what do weneed to do now?
Let's go.
(26:59):
And so where leaders end upoperating are either in chaos or
clear.
And in both cases, they take thelead and take some action in
chaos.
They don't know what to do, butthey do something right.
And in clear, like I know, herewe go.
And most of the time we don'tknow everything.
(27:19):
that's why we so often seethings happen.
And in retrospect, we say, well,there were unintended
consequences here because.
We didn't know those things yet.
Now that doesn't mean that we'realways going to get everything
right.
And I'm not saying that weshould now live in a world of,
of never making decisions.
What I am saying is if we thinkabout context a little bit more,
(27:40):
we can flex how we use those onour team and their expertise and
their perspective and theirexperience differently and
better.
And if you think about it,everybody, if you've both led
and been led, all of us havebeen right.
And in times when you've beenled, there've been times when
you just wanted the boss todecide.
(28:00):
And there've been times you'relike, you really wanted to be
involved and you really felt youneeded to be involved.
And if you've got the sameleader that does both of those
things, what are they doing?
Flexing.
And if they're making the, ifthey're flexing in the right
ways at the right time, based onthose needs, we get better
results.
Mike Goldman (28:19):
So are we literally saying, you know,
using this, Cynefin frameworknow that I know how to say it
right that when, as a leader,when we are confronted with a
decision and we're confronted,you know, with sometimes dozens
or hundreds of decisions a day,but when we're confronted, let's
call it a significant decisionwe've got to make is the first
(28:43):
step to say, wait a minute, Letme understand the context or,
you know, is the context clear?
Is it, complicated?
Is it complex?
Is it chaotic?
Make that decision first becausethat's going to drive a
different way to think about howwe move forward.
Kevin Eikenberry (29:00):
So now actually, there's one thing is
just in front of that, and ittakes us back to mindset and
takes us back to something youand I said at the very
beginning, and that is, we haveto be intentional to say,
because here's the thing, if weoperate from what we believe is
our style, or what we leave asour strength, or what we believe
we're supposed to do, and weoperate on automatic pilot.
(29:20):
You said you have a lot of highD traits, right?
So automatic pilot for you islet's go.
And maybe if you get a littlebit frustrated raising your
voice, but not necessarily a badthing, other than that, let's,
we got to keep it.
That's your natural intention,right?
That's your natural inclination,right?
So all of us have those.
And some of us share that othershave other sorts of traits.
(29:41):
The point is first thing isintention to say, should I be
operating on automatic pilothere or not?
And then and the way we decidethat is by looking at the
context, right?
So I'm just putting a little bitof something in front of what
you said.
and that's why mindset matters.
if you realize that perhaps Ineed to do something other than
(30:03):
doing what comes automatic orwhat I've done the last 64
times.
Then I can take a breath andsay, so do I have, are all the
things known here?
Where's the team with this?
What's the situation?
What do we need to do?
What expertise do we need toinvolve here?
What brainstorming do we need todo here?
Whatever that is, or chaos.
(30:26):
Holy smokes, not everyone is noteveryone has your high D traits
since we're using disk, right?
Others have the opposite end ofthat spectrum have a lot of S
traits We're getting a lot of Ctraits and so what their natural
inclination would be to slowdown and wait and think and that
applies to sometimes, apply inchaos when someone needs to make
(30:47):
a decision and we need to dosomething And so it's about
getting past our initial,natural, learned responses to
say, what does the situationcall for here?
Mike Goldman (31:02):
And that's clarifying to me because if, you
know, we go and just to kind ofstep back and make sure we're
like, we talked about mindsetand now we're on skill set.
And the interesting part is thefirst part of your skillset
model is the intention piece, asyou just said.
And if you don't have the rightmindset, you're going to blow
right by that intention piece.
So, so you start to see how itcomes together
Kevin Eikenberry (31:24):
So even if I understand
Mike Goldman (31:25):
and then, yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:27):
the model, it doesn't matter because I'm just
blowing right by it with mynatural inclination
Mike Goldman (31:33):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
So we've got the mindset.
Then within skill set, we startwith the intention.
Then we've got the context,which is where the Cynefin model
comes in.
And then my favorite part in,in, in going through your book
was the next part, which isflexors.
And you started talking aboutthose when I talked to you, what
(31:55):
I brought up, Oh, I'm trying.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:57):
and being flexible, right?
Mike Goldman (31:58):
Being rigid versus flexible that, you know, those
two extremes are not right.
So, so you, that's one exampleof it, but say more about what
flexors are.
And maybe let's talk through,you know, a couple of examples.
Kevin Eikenberry (32:11):
So the first thing we have to realize here is
I said that there's like atension between these things,
right?
So and we'll go back to when westarted with, which was, instead
of using the word rigid, I'lluse the word consistent versus
flexible.
Right?
and there's a tension betweenthose two things.
so, my family and I were inHawaii on vacation a week before
Christmas, and what I have foundis these tensions are
(32:36):
everywhere.
So I'm standing, in the surf.
in the sand and the waves arecoming in, washing over my feet
and my legs and the sand iscoming out behind my heels.
Because is the water coming inor is the water going out?
And the answer is the water isdoing both of them at the same
(32:58):
time.
And so there's a reason and atime when for us to be
consistent and a reason in timefor us to be flexible.
There's a tension between them.
The right answer isn't whichone, the answer is how much of
each one.
not an either or question, it'sa both and question.
So I'll use an example.
(33:19):
This may, this is maybe thebiggest overarching one I've
been asking leaders in workshopsand keynotes this question for
long time.
Would you rather lead forcommitment or compliance.
And nearly everyone will say, Iwanna lead for commitment.
(33:41):
And yet read most, employeeengagement studies.
And you will find surveys andyou'll find that most people are
barely getting compliance, letalone commitment.
And yet, here's the thing, arethere times when we need people
to comply?
Yes.
Legal stuff, ethical stuff,safety stuff, we need them to
comply.
But is that all we want?
(34:02):
probably not.
We want and need both.
So the idea of flexors is thatthere are ends of a continuum.
There's a tension between them.
And again, the intention says,where do we need to fall on this
at any given time, based on thesituation, based on the context,
(34:23):
rather than based on what Iknow, or I'm good at.
Mike Goldman (34:28):
So that's where the context comes together with
the flexors is if I've got thesetwo extremes of consistent
versus rigid, well, is thecontext clear?
Is the context complex?
Is the con
Kevin Eikenberry (34:42):
Exactly.
Mike Goldman (34:43):
that's going to help me?
and I love that.
That's such a more kind of.
Mechanical may be the wrongword, but it's such a more, you
know, structured way in my mindto think about it that, Hey,
sometimes this is right.
And sometimes this is right.
No, we can go deeper.
It depends on this context.
So I, it's so helpful.
Kevin Eikenberry (35:04):
here's the thing that I'm, as the trainer
in me, Right?
knows that what I'm suggestingin this conversation, what I'm
suggesting in this book isharder than the way you've
learned to lead before.
it is.
it requires more effort.
It requires more thought.
It requires more intention thanjust doing what you've seen do.
(35:25):
I lead the way I, this guy waspretty good or this guy was
pretty good.
I lead the way they led.
That's the way I, that's theonly way I've ever seen.
So that's what I do.
Well, it works some of the time.
Just doesn't work all the time.
Right?
And so it's a more refined,Approach.
It's harder.
I'm asking us all, me included,as leaders, holding ourselves to
(35:47):
a higher standard with this thanwhat we've done before because
the work that we do isimportant.
I mean, nothing, Mike, nothingpositive happens in the world
unless someone leads.
And so if we want to make thiswork, make our businesses
better, make our teams better,make our, help our customers be
better, make the world a betterplace, like it requires us to
(36:10):
lead better.
And so it's my hope that thisbook helps us to do that at
least a little bit better.
Mike Goldman (36:19):
How do we go from the skillset, right?
We started with mindset, we gota skillset and then you've got
habit set.
how do we make it a habit?
Kevin Eikenberry (36:30):
Well, at this point, it's really not any
different than any other habit,right?
So, and, you know, there's beena lot of really good stuff
written in the last 20 yearsabout habits, and a lot's been
learned about how our brainswork around habits, and I cite
James Clear's book, AtomicHabits, Habits in the Book, and,
you know, if you haven't readthat, there are other really
good works lately on this aswell, but, that book is as good
(36:54):
as any, and it's the most, It'sthe most known.
So we'll talk about it, but itgives us a lot of clues and it
gives us a lot of cues, right?
But the thing is, have to startto recognize.
When we might need to do itdifferently, which is where
intention comes in, right?
so, the mindset says, you haveto have intention.
And then the habit set says,when do I need to stop and look
(37:16):
before I just act?
Right?
So what's the cue that tells meI might need to adjust?
Or flex and then go from there,right?
And so, to me, when we thinkabout habits, it really comes
down to, what am I knowing whatmy goal is and then replacing
what I've always done in thiscase, an automatic response to
(37:36):
create a new automatic response,which is to start by saying,
what's my intention here?
Right?
So, I don't know that I have, inthe big picture, of creating new
habitset, a lot of new things tosay that haven't already been
said, in many ways.
I think the one thing I talkabout in the book that I think
is useful, especially useful, isthe idea of routine, having a,
(38:02):
having rhythm and havingroutine, which is a step up
from, to me, from the habit,like the nitty gritty of doing
this and that, and the nextthing.
and I think that having routine,things that create rhythm for
us, I think is really helpful.
Knowing the places that we canput ourselves mentally.
physically that can help us berefreshed and revived.
(38:24):
And for us to be at our best asleaders, I think is really
important.
Mike Goldman (38:28):
Yeah, I think the other thing I would throw out
there that, that jumped into myhead as you were talking is if
you as an individual leaderdecide to start thinking this
way and acting this way,mindset, skillset, habitset,
it's, you're going to have somework to do to build that habit
(38:50):
of anyone would, but if as ateam.
As a CEO, as a leadership team,you are all shifting your
mindset in this way.
You're all building thatskillset.
You're all working on thehabits.
Now we could reinforce it ineach other.
Kevin Eikenberry (39:07):
Now we can give each other feedback.
Now we can hold each otheraccountable.
Now we can, you know, we canshow commitment.
And then when we start to dothat, then the rolling out of
the leadership development workwill go far better.
Mike Goldman (39:22):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (39:22):
We should be as a leadership team rolling up
our sleeves and getting involvedin this with our teams.
and so Size of organization.
Are we 1st and we roll down orare we doing it with?
I mean, those are things thatall could be discussed
specifically in your context inyour situation.
But as you so astutely askedearlier.
that has to be a piece of this.
If that's not going to be there.
(39:43):
And I'm not just talking aboutflexible leadership, you're
doing, like if there's adisconnect between what the
leaders that are doing thatyou're asking to do something
different and what you're doing,if there's a disconnect there,
they ain't going.
Why would they?
Right.
Changing, changing our habits ishard.
And so, if we want to make ithappen, we need to have
(40:06):
accountability help, we need tohave coaching help, we need to
have peer help, we need to haveall these sorts of things to
help create the actual shift.
right
Mike Goldman (40:16):
I want to throw you a little curve ball before
we start to wrap up.
and I'm going to take this as achance for me to get some free
coaching from you.
So if you want to send me aninvoice after this, feel free, I
won't pay it, but you can sendme an invoice
Kevin Eikenberry (40:30):
Well, I
Mike Goldman (40:30):
is
Kevin Eikenberry (40:31):
outstanding accounts receivable, so we won't
send it.
That'll be fine.
Mike Goldman (40:35):
so I have got a client coming up.
Next week that I'm going to beworking with now, the time
people are listening to this,where this will have happened, a
while ago, but I've got a clientcoming up that is, and I won't
get too specific.
I'll say they're in therenewables industry.
(40:57):
We are at a time, depending onwhen you're listening to this,
that in the United States, weare about to have a new
administration, come intooffice.
That is, let's call it.
see, seems like they might beless friendly to the renewables
industry, more friendly to oiland coal and all the more
(41:18):
traditional.
So that throw, and there'scertainly a lot of, a lot of
what the government is doing forthe renewables industry where a
lot of,
Kevin Eikenberry (41:27):
Before you I just say something right there?
Mike Goldman (41:29):
yeah,
Kevin Eikenberry (41:29):
example.
There's an example and I'm notspeaking for or against the
administration.
That's not my point.
So many things on in our worldthat we frame as it's this or
it's this, but the reality isit, both of those can be true.
Like we can be, we could bedrill baby drill.
And working to help renewablesbe a part of the, it doesn't
(41:52):
have to be one or the other.
And I'm not saying you're sayingthat so often.
That's how we end up framing theworld.
It's either this or thisflexible leadership is about a
both and approach rather than aneither or approach.
Now, I interrupted you.
So go ahead.
You
Mike Goldman (42:08):
no, that's okay.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:09):
in the
Mike Goldman (42:09):
and.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:10):
Go ahead.
Mike Goldman (42:11):
Part of the answer is in what you just said.
So I appreciate that.
But they're about to get thisleadership team together to plan
the year and, you know, plan thenext quarter.
And to some degree, they'remembers of the leadership team
saying We don't know what theheck to do because we don't know
if the administration is goingto, you know, get rid of the,
(42:31):
whatever the inflation act wasthat, you know, we don't know
that they're going to do thisthing.
So how could we plan thebusiness when we don't know what
this administration is going todo and what it means to our
business?
How should that team, especiallythe leader of that team, how,
you know, and let's kind of takeit through what is that a,
Complex context.
Is that chaotic?
(42:52):
What, you know, what is thecontext and how should they be
thinking about planning the nextyear with all of that out there
is kind of an unknown to them.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:02):
I think, I mean, it's a more.
a more nuanced situation than wecan say, talk about in this this
conversation, but I will saythis, that if something's in the
context, in, in the complexcontext, that means we need to
be thinking about options.
Right?
And so what anyone who'slistening might be thinking,
well, we ought to be thinkingabout what are our various
(43:24):
scenarios.
If this happens, where would wego?
This happens, where would we go?
If this happens, where would wego?
And I think that's probablydirectionally.
Okay.
The right thing, what are thethings we know?
We don't know.
Let's talk about what those are.
And given that, as those thingsbecome clearer, and by the way,
they're not going to becomeclear around January, the 20th
or whatever that day is,
Mike Goldman (43:43):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:43):
going to become clear over some period of
time, given those unknowns orthose variables.
What are the things we ought tobe considering?
And if several of those thingsare unknown right now, what's
the best use of our time in thenext 30, 60, 90 days, you know,
so part of that planning is notthinking out a year.
we need to step back.
Now there's a big, importantthing for us to think long term
(44:06):
and sort of the Japanese 30year, look at our business and
all that stuff.
I understand that, but if we'replanning out the next year, we
really, in this case, I thinkneed to be saying, what are the
things we need to be learning?
understanding, gathering in thenext 30, 60, 90 days to help us,
have a more evergreen sort ofapproach to what our planning is
moving forward.
Mike Goldman (44:26):
Helpful, helpful.
Even just kind of thinkingthrough what are the unknowns?
What are the knowns?
You know, what's controllable?
What's not controllable?
Kevin Eikenberry (44:34):
think if I were in your shoes and I was
going to be their consultant ortheir facilitator, that's
probably where I would start.
Mike Goldman (44:39):
Yeah, no, that's helpful.
That's helpful.
So this is, you know, I amabsolutely, will recommend this
book and this model to all of myclients.
it's a, it's not the same oldleadership stuff by any stretch.
it's, and I won't even say it'sdifferent than that.
It's much deeper than that andnuance than that.
So, so I love this stuff wherepeople want to find out.
(45:03):
Kevin, more about what you andyour company do, especially if
they want to go buy the book.
I know the book is, you know, asof when this will, when this
will go live, the book is goinglive right around the same time.
So where should people go tofind out more about you?
Where should people go to buythe book?
Kevin Eikenberry (45:20):
Yeah, so if people just want to learn more
about us, you can go toKevinEikenberry.com K E V I N E
I K E N B E R R Y.com and youcan learn all about what we're
about and what we're doing.
You can certainly connect withme on LinkedIn, but specifically
related to your question.
you can go wherever fine booksare sold and get a copy of your
(45:40):
book.
Hope you'll do that.
Go order it at Amazon orwhatever.
Or you can do this.
You can go toKevinEikenberry.com/gift.
And when you go toKevinEikenberry.com/gift, we'll
give you the links where you cango get the book.
Awesome.
But we're also going to giveyou, right there, a free gift
for having listened to the show,of our masterclass that I
(46:00):
created about, being moreconfident, building confidence
in yourself and others.
And so that's the last word inthe book, right?
Navigate uncertainty and leadwith confidence.
And so, we didn't talk aboutthat much today, but I want to
give anyone who's listening,that master class on confidence,
building confidence in yourselfand others for free, just for
(46:23):
having listened to ourconversation.
And then all the links to thebook are also there.
Hope you'll do that.
We'd love to talk to you abouthow we could help your
leadership team, yourorganization around the ideas of
flexible leadership, of course.
But hopefully the first thingyou'll do is, take a look at
that.
That course, make that availableto yourself.
And, if we can be of help, we'dlove to do it.
Mike Goldman (46:45):
Go do it.
And if this was helpful, soundslike there's a lot more help out
there from the course.
Absolutely.
From the book.
well, you know, as I always say,if you want a great company, you
need a great leadership team.
Kevin, thanks so much forhelping us get there today.
Kevin Eikenberry (47:01):
Mike, it was my pleasure to be with you.
I love the questions.
I love the conversation and, Ihope those who are listening
found it helpful.
Mike Goldman (47:08):
Excellent.
See everybody next time.
I'm saying to be flexible but isn't like
consistency important.
Yes, consistency is importantuntil it's not, right?
And what I would say is that weneed to be consistent, rigid,
even if you will, on values, onprinciples, and we need to be
flexible on approach.
(00:22):
So there's a difference betweenthe what the how, and to me
that's where the differencecomes, because we want leaders
to be, we want to be able tohave a sense of who they are and
what they're about, and I wouldhope that we can be about
adapting when necessary, whenthe context of our situation
requires us to do that.
Mike Goldman (00:51):
You made it to the better leadership team show, the
place where you learn how tosurround yourself with the right
people, doing the right things.
So you can grow your businesswithout losing your mind.
I'm your host and leadershipteam coach, Mike Goldman.
I'm going to show you how toimprove top and bottom line
growth, fulfillment, and thevalue your company adds to the
(01:12):
world by building a betterleadership team.
All right, let's go.
Kevin Eikenberry is the chiefpotential officer of the Kevin
Eikenberry group, a leadershipand learning company.
(01:34):
He spent over 30 years helpingorganizations and leaders.
From more than 53 countriesbecome more effective.
Global gurus has put them in thelist of the most influential
thinkers on leadership for thelast three years.
His blog and podcast, theremarkable leadership podcast
are among the most popular onleadership.
(01:54):
Remarkable leadership from budto boss and the long distance
leader are among the books he'sauthored or coauthored.
Kevin believes his new book,Flexible Leadership, Navigate
Uncertainty, and Lead withConfidence is his best and most
important work yet.
So that's where we're going tofocus today.
Kevin, welcome to the show.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:16):
Mike, thanks for having me.
You know, it's, it's aninteresting thing to have
coauthors and then say your newbook is your best.
I don't know how my coauthorswho both get a paycheck from me
probably wonder about that, buthere we go.
Mike Goldman (02:27):
Well, and I know Wayne, I have, I interviewed,
one of your coauthors, WadeTurmel on the show, not too long
ago about a remote workforce.
So, after he hears this, he maybe calling you or I pretty
angry, but
Kevin Eikenberry (02:39):
the first
Mike Goldman (02:40):
we'll deal with that.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:41):
okay.
Mike Goldman (02:42):
And he's on your payroll instead of vice versa.
So that, that helps a littlebit.
Kevin Eikenberry (02:46):
correct.
Mike Goldman (02:47):
So, so let's dive in.
and as always, I'm going tostart with the question I always
do, which is You know, Kevin,from your experience, what do
you believe is the number onemost important characteristic of
a great leadership team?
Kevin Eikenberry (03:05):
Well, anytime you ask about the most or the
one, it makes me think of, I canonly take one book on the desert
island.
What book am I going to take?
it's an impossible question.
but I knew you were going toask.
And so I'll go with the firstthing that came to my mind.
And that is that everyone on theteam needs to be committed to
each other and to the mission ofthe organization.
So I would say, if you forced meto pick one, I'd pick
(03:27):
commitment.
Mike Goldman (03:28):
and what would be that one book?
I'm sure it would be, hold on.
Kevin Eikenberry (03:31):
that's not
Mike Goldman (03:32):
no, it would be breakthrough leadership team by
Mike Goldman.
Kevin Eikenberry (03:35):
leadership team by Mike Goldman.
That's what it would be.
Mike Goldman (03:39):
so I want to start with, and I know you cover this
in your book is, you know, I,one of the things as a coach
that works with leadershipteams, most days, all day, very
often I hear we've got to createa leadership development
program.
(03:59):
And the thing I hear second mostis.
Why is our leadershipdevelopment program not working?
You know, everybody thinksthat's going to be, we're just
going to create this wonderfulleadership development program
and we're going to have a bunchof great leaders.
why is it that most of thoseprograms don't achieve what we
think and hope there they'llachieve?
Kevin Eikenberry (04:21):
Well, that's a big question, Mike.
I'll say I've been thinkingabout that question for 30 years
and trying to help organizationsthink about that work through
that for 30 years.
I'll say a couple of things.
First of all, most allleadership development programs
are designed around skills,which makes sense.
We want people to have betterskills.
(04:42):
however skills alone are notreally what we should be trying
to achieve.
So, really, what we want is tocreate a mindset that leads to.
And connects to the skill setlike most leadership development
programs.
There's not.
I mean, there are some that arebetter than others, right?
There's some better content.
Some are using your content.
(05:02):
So they're better.
Some are using my content.
So they're okay.
But my point is.
it's not usually the content.
It's not usually the skills.
Like the problems are on thefront end and the back end.
So we need to have the rightmindset to support the skill
set.
People have to have the rightperspective to say, I understand
this.
I want to do this before we givethem the shiny toolkit.
(05:26):
then the toolkit of course,isn't enough because there's a
big difference between knowingand doing.
And so we believe it's mindset,skillset, habit set and, what's
usually missing is two of thethree.
And so we're pretty good atfiguring out how to teach the
skills or share, share theskills.
Here are the skills.
but we don't think we don't putit in the right context.
(05:48):
And we also treat it like sprayand pray.
Like we're going to giveeverybody the same thing when
not everyone's at the same levelof readiness, which is related
to the mindset piece, right?
Not everyone understands.
Why it would be valuable forthem to get better or what pain
will be erased for them whenthey become more effective
leaders.
So I believe the short answer isthat most leadership development
(06:11):
programs focus on only one ofthe three important things,
mindset, skill set, habit set,and they're only focused on that
middle one.
Mike Goldman (06:19):
And we will come back cause that's a big, big
focus of your book.
It's the way your whole book isreally structured.
Is that mindset skill set habitsset.
So we're going to come back tothat, but I want to go kind of,
you know, step back and stayhigh level for a few minutes and
your book is called FlexibleLeadership.
why did, why was that animportant book for you to write
(06:42):
now?
Kevin Eikenberry (06:43):
Well, I think, you know, you and I are in a
group of people that have been,trying to help.
Leaders get better for a longtime.
And there were people thatpreceded us and we rest, we sit
on their shoulders.
And a lot of people for the last80 or a hundred years have
really worked hard to figure outhow to help leaders get better.
And they've built all sorts ofthings and all sorts of tools
(07:05):
and all sorts of assessmentswith wonderful intention.
And the problem is that most,many of those have led to a
model or a style type.
And the problem is that ashumans.
Styles help us because we arepattern recognition engines.
And if we can recognize apattern, then it helps us
(07:27):
understand something.
The problem is.
Any model is incomplete becauseit's if I collect tractors,
antique tractors, and I alsocollect the toys and I could
have, I could show you a toy.
I didn't have, it's over here.
I could show you a toy right nowthat, that is a model of a
(07:47):
tractor that I own, both ofwhich are older than I am.
Here's the thing.
The model tells us somethingabout the real thing, but it is
necessarily incomplete.
It is necessarilyoversimplified.
And any model that we use inleadership development, in
communication styles, all thestyle stuff built with
(08:10):
tremendously useful intent.
Gets in the way because nowrather than me using that
simplified model to understand alittle bit of something I now
lock in and say that's what Iwell I'm a this kind of leader
or i'm a that kind of leader ori'm a servant leader or i'm a
whatever leader then we arelocked in and can no longer be
(08:30):
flexible.
And in a world that requires,that is more complex than any
model, we have to be able toflex.
We have to be able to adapt.
And so, all of, you know, itties to your 1st question or
your 2nd question about, like,all of these, all this work, all
this investment in leadershipdevelopment.
And yet we don't really get theresults we want.
It's because the world isinherently more complex than the
(08:53):
models.
And so what we need is a way tothink beyond the styles.
I'm not saying that knowing,having some sense of leadership
style, isn't useful.
I'm saying it's incomplete andit's only helpful until it's
not.
Mike Goldman (09:08):
I also think a good example of when it's not
useful is if you think of a diskprofile there, there are, you
know, and I happen to be a highD I, my D is almost off the
charts.
And for those that don't knowwhat that means is I want the
facts.
I want to make a decision quick.
I want to take action.
It's not about Kumbaya.
(09:29):
It's not about analyzing.
Let's make it happen.
And there are leaders that takethat knowledge as opposed to
using that the way I have taughtit.
And I don't do much disc workanymore, but when I used to
teach it, it was all about howdo we use that knowledge to flex
to others, knowing that I mightbe a high D, how do I influence
(09:50):
someone who's a high S?
Well, I need to flex to them.
But when I see leaders doing,which flies in the face of what
you're trying to achieve andwhat you do and in your book is
people use that style as anexcuse.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:05):
I'm
Mike Goldman (10:06):
not a jerk.
I'm not a jerk.
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:08):
right?
You
Mike Goldman (10:08):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (10:09):
you gotta adapt to me cause I'm the boss.
Mike Goldman (10:12):
Well, and it's also, you know, I, you know, I
know I sound like a jerk, butI'm just a high D that's how I
am.
No, you're a jerk.
So, so, so I love that.
So, and is there something aboutthe environment?
Today that makes being aflexible leader more important.
You know, I always say, Oh, theworld is changing faster than
(10:34):
ever.
I think I'm almost 60 years oldand the world's been changing
pretty fast ever since I wasborn.
But is there something about theworld today that makes this more
important or has it always beenjust as important
Kevin Eikenberry (10:48):
You know, the book marketer in me would say
times are more uncertain thanever and because of that, and I
think there's some truth tothat.
Although.
It's pretty hard for us to knowthat because we didn't live 40
years ago or 50 years ago and wecan read about it or whatever,
but I do think the world ischanging.
You know, we can, we don't haveto argue whether it's more or
faster.
(11:09):
I believe the world is morecomplex because there are more
factors involved.
Like when people were leading ina small community 60, 70 years
ago, there was less diversity ofthought.
There was less diversity ofcustomer.
There was less diversity ofemployee.
There was less diversity andlots of factors.
And so anytime you add that, youadd levels of complexity and a
(11:30):
global workforce and a globalcommunity and a global economy
and all those things.
think those things do play arole.
the other hand, I think that thebest leaders have always
exhibited a number of the kindsof traits that we think about
and talk about in flexibleleadership, being that I have to
be intentional.
What's the situation telling meand how should I be responding,
(11:55):
reacting?
leading, given that context,rather than just saying, well,
this is how I lead or going bymy first inclination, natural
response, high D, high I, highS, whatever, right?
But rather say what'sappropriate, what's helpful,
what's going to be most usefulfor us, for me right now.
And I don't think that's reallychanged.
(12:17):
I just think need for it hasbeen amplified.
Mike Goldman (12:23):
before we, I want to dive into.
the model and your way ofthinking on how we should think
about this, how we should do it.
but sticking again, high levelfor another couple of minutes is
dive a little deeper for me asto how you would define what a
flexible leader is.
and what I want you to take intoaccount when you define it is in
(12:46):
my mind, and I may be thinkingabout it, In, in, in maybe a
different way or maybe even anunhelpful way in my mind,
there's a certain amount offlexibility.
That's probably good.
And then there's a certainpoint, which is God, could we
ever stick to a plan before youchange your mind to go here?
Because I've seen leaders thatare too rigid.
(13:07):
This is our plan.
And I've all seen leaders thatalso seen leaders that chase
every shiny object.
And it's because they are quoteunquote flexible.
So how should we be thinkingabout that?
Kevin Eikenberry (13:18):
So for those who are listening and not
watching, I'm not putting up myhands on both sides of my head.
and so on one end.
We have rigid and on the otherhand we have Flexible or
adaptable or changeable,whatever we're doing to use, and
I would suggest you and this isa core idea of the entire book.
Let's call this a flexor and inalmost every case.
And we've got a whole bunch ofthese in the book.
(13:41):
And I'm sure we'll talk about afew in almost every case.
The ends of that continuum.
Are seldom the right answer.
The right answer is somewherebetween rigid and so flexible as
to not be able to pin the persondown.
that's not what we're afterhere.
In fact, one of the things Italk about early in the book is,
well, there's a conundrum.
There's a paradox here.
(14:02):
I'm saying to be flexible andyet, but yet isn't like
consistency important.
Yes, consistency is importantuntil it's not, right?
And we have to, what I would sayis that we need to be
consistent, rigid, even if youwill, on values, on principles,
and we need to be flexible onapproach.
(14:25):
So there's a difference betweenthe what the how, and to me
that's where the differencecomes, because we want leaders
to be, we want to be able tohave a sense of who they are and
what they're about, and I just,you know, would hope that we can
be about adapting whennecessary, when the context of
our situation requires us to dothat.
Mike Goldman (14:48):
I want to dive into something you brought up
right, right at the beginningwhen we were talking about why.
Leadership development programsdon't work is as we've already
said, your book is separatedbetween the mindset, the
skillset, and then the habitset.
Dive in and we'll, I'm surewe'll dive into some examples of
(15:10):
each of those, but for now, kindof higher level, why did you set
up the book that way?
And just give us a little senseof why those three things are
important versus, as you said,the typical, we're just going to
focus on skillset.
Kevin Eikenberry (15:25):
Well, let's start with the second two,
right?
Because that's where all thefrustration comes with the
leadership development stuff orany kind of training we send
people to, like we gave them theskills, but then they don't go
back and do them.
Nothing changed when they wentback to the workplace, the
difference between knowing anddoing right.
And so there's a differencebetween knowing how to do
something and then actuallydoing it.
Right.
And so that's moving from havinga skill.
And using the skill, creating ahabit set.
(15:47):
And so to me, that's just socritical.
We've known that all of us sortof intuitively know that, yet it
gets missed in all of the, inall of the sort of
organizational work and even thework that, most individuals do
when they leave a workshop orfinish reading a book or finish
(16:07):
listening to a podcast.
Right.
but in front of those things,You can't just lead the horse to
water.
I'm gonna call it not callingour leaders horses.
But we can't just lead our horseto water and say now drink here
it is.
This is really good stuff.
They have to have a sense and aneed and an understanding and a
perspective to say.
This is important.
This is helpful.
(16:28):
There's something here that Ineed to change.
if I believe I have it figuredout, how interested am I in
learning anything new?
I'm not, right?
My mindset is not prepared forthat.
And I find, because, youmentioned earlier, one of the
books that I had the chance toco write a number of years ago
is called From Bud to Boss.
(16:48):
So we've worked a lot of timewith, and frontline leaders,
often one of the biggest gapsfor them is to really understand
what it is that this role isright.
Leadership isn't just being thesmartest one in the room.
Leadership isn't just I know allthis stuff.
And so do it the way I did it.
Leadership isn't to take charge.
Leadership is somethingdifferent than that, but until
(17:09):
people see begin to have aperspective on what it could be,
those skills are of zerointerest or value to them, or
only a limited number of themare, right?
And so that's why we think allthree parts are so important.
I've been sort of preaching thatmessage for a long time, Mike.
And, and so when I got ready towrite this book, I felt like it
(17:33):
was the right way to go.
To sort of frame it all, I
Mike Goldman (17:37):
So give us, so let's start with mindset.
Let's kind of go through eachone of these, to unpack it.
So let's unpack mindset.
How is there, what is the rightmindset or is there an exercise
that our leader needs to gothrough?
how do we build that big why?
(17:57):
So the leader wants to.
So the horse run runs to thewater and wants to drink versus
we leave them there and keeptrying to get them to drink and
they don't want to drink.
Kevin Eikenberry (18:07):
will probably not use that metaphor again,
because I'm not sure it's a verygood one, but that's what came
out of my mouth.
So there was so there we are.
So, so part of mindset is thewhy certainly right?
And we all know the importanceof why, but mindset is more than
that mindset is.
What is this role?
Really?
What is my role?
Really?
How can I have the greatestimpact?
(18:29):
and you know, there's all sortsof great work that's been done
on mindset by people like CarolDweck talks about we have an
abundance mindset and thosethings are all part of it.
But ultimately it's, what is mybelief set?
what it means to lead, and ifthat doesn't match up with the
skills you're going to providepeople later, then that
(18:50):
disconnect will get in the way.
It's not that, it's not thatyour leaders aren't
intellectually smart enough orintellectually equipped enough
to learn the skills.
that's rarely ever the issue.
The issue is one of, does theirperspective line up?
Does it make sense to them, todo this?
Because if you've ever been inany kind of training, and I know
(19:12):
you all have, we're like, thisdoesn't make any sense.
I don't see how I would ever usethis.
Then you're, you don't evenengage your intellectual
prowess, right?
You just say, yeah, okay, we'regoing to get through this.
And in school you had to passthe test, and here you don't
even have to do that.
You just have to get to the end,right?
And then go back to work andkind of do what you always did.
Mike Goldman (19:34):
How important is it?
And it's probably a leadingquestion, but how important is
it?
if an organ, I have a lot oforganizations I work with, look
at, you know, I'm working withthe senior leadership team and
they look at their quote unquotemiddle managers and say they
(19:55):
need leadership development.
and yeah, I do the same thingfor those.
Yeah, they need.
and what I find is, you know,there are so many problems with
that, but the two things relatedto what we're talking about is,
you know, if they need it.
Well, then they're pushing it ontheir middle managers, which is
(20:18):
not going to start off with theright mindset, but it seems to
me like they need that mindsetfirst, because if they're trying
to get their middle managers tomake a habit out of some new set
of skills, they're not going todo it if their leaders aren't
reinforcing it.
So.
How important is it in thinkingabout this to start with CEO and
(20:40):
senior leadership team beforeyou can say, we've got to go
train our leaders to be moreflexible, all of those people
over there.
Kevin Eikenberry (20:49):
Well, so the first thing I was laughing.
There's lots of things you justsaid that I would kind of could
comment on.
I was trying hard not tointerrupt you.
the first thing I would say is Iremember when I was a kid, Mike,
my dad used to say, Kevin,remember when you point your
finger at someone, there arethree fingers pointing back to
you.
So I just started pointing withmy whole open hand, right?
So I solved that problem.
But the point my dad was tryingto impress upon me was that it's
(21:11):
never just about somebody else.
What role in this is yours?
And so.
The they word is always a wordthat makes me wary about the
speaker's willingness to beaccountable.
Because when I say, well, theyneed to, it implies that I don't
need it.
(21:32):
the reality is that even if Idon't, So here's the thing.
A lot of times what thoseleaders will be saying, and we
could do this at any level,right?
CEO to VPs to middle managers,front line leaders, whatever.
What they're saying is, Ialready took that training of
some kind.
I already have those.
(21:53):
But to our whole conversation sofar, it's not about whether you
have the skills, it's whetheryou're exhibiting them, right?
And you said, if my boss isn'treinforcing the training, I'm
less likely to do it, right?
It's harder for me to build anew habit set if my boss isn't
reinforcing it, but more thanjust not reinforcing it.
(22:14):
Are they exhibiting it?
Right?
Not just are they, do they, youknow, sometimes we'll work with
clients and they'll say, well,and we'll say, well, listen, if
you want to help to make thistraining work, one of the things
you need to do is to make surethat the leaders of the leaders
or the, you know, those, who aresending folks that they know the
content, that they know thestuff that they can, an answer
(22:36):
questions, that they can coachon those things.
And all that's completely true.
But a whole nother important,more important level is are they
doing it too?
Right?
Listen, my leaders need to beable to give feedback.
you giving feedback?
Right?
And so, I hate the, I don'treally love the blanket
statement.
We should always start at thetop and roll down.
(22:57):
And yet at some level, based onwhat I just said, that's almost
what you need to do.
Right?
Unless you really do have alevel of leaders that really are
exhibiting those things.
at some level, we need to geteverybody in the same mindset,
skill set and habit set.
It's again, it's not just aboutskills.
this thing about it being aboutthe skills and about taking the
class and having thecertification and marking it off
(23:19):
in the LMS.
It's pervasive and until we getpast that, and it's human
nature, I understand it, butuntil we get past it, we're
never going to get the kind ofleverage from our leadership
development efforts that we'dlike.
Mike Goldman (23:36):
Let's move on from mindset.
To skill set and there's a modelthat you use in the book, which
you use throughout the book in anumber of ways that, that it's
the, if I'm saying it right, isit the Cinefin?
Kevin Eikenberry (23:51):
Cynefin!
Mike Goldman (23:52):
Cynefin, I, it's,
Kevin Eikenberry (23:53):
rhymes with
Mike Goldman (23:54):
yeah, Kevin, the,
Kevin Eikenberry (23:55):
the
Mike Goldman (23:55):
so tell us, yeah.
So tell us about the Cynefinframework because it's so, it's
such a part of your bookthroughout such an important
part of it.
So tell us what that is and whyit's important.
Kevin Eikenberry (24:07):
Well, the father of the Cynefin framework
is a guy named Dave Snowden.
And, he would be, I wouldsuggest all of you follow him on
LinkedIn if nothing else, here'sthe thing about, and the
framework has been around for 25years, but it's usually applied.
organizationally or in groupwork.
And what we're trying to do hereis help individual leaders think
about how to use it.
What it is a framework.
(24:29):
Think about it this way.
If I, if I put you someplace andsay, I want you to get to
someplace else, you'd like tohave a map.
You'd like, well, where am Inow?
And where do I want, where doyou want me to go?
And so the Cynefin framework isa way of making sense of the
context in which we are.
and and this kind of goes back alittle bit, Mike, to the
(24:52):
conversation we had earlierabout how, why now?
And I remember 30 years ago,working for a very large and
very successful organizationwhere there was a tremendous
amount of.
Of effort and time put into bestpractices.
And a lot of organizations haveworked really hard to build on
best practices, understand bestpractices.
(25:13):
And in the Cynefin framework, ifthis, if the context is clear,
best practices are awesome.
We should absolutely be tryingto figure out what the best
practice is.
When we sort of know all of thepieces, we know all this stuff,
then what's the best way to doit.
But how often is it that wereally know everything, right?
There's almost always some stuffthat we know, and if we try to
(25:35):
apply best practices to all theknowns, the unknowns are the
things that keep that fromreally being.
And what we really need to do isfind practices that will
actually work.
So we're talking about the clearcontext or the clear piece of
the framework.
And then now I'm talking aboutthe complicated, the world is
often far more complicated thanit is clear.
(25:56):
And that's where we know thereare things we don't know and we
have to operate in thatscenario.
And yet so often leaders justsay, well, here it is.
I'm going to make a decision.
Let's go.
Cause I have all the data,right?
So I have all the data.
So here we go.
And if it's a clear context,that's a perfectly fine
approach.
But the other parts of theframework are complicated and
(26:18):
then complex, which I believe welive much more in the complex
and complicated than in theothers most of the time.
So complex is when we, there'sthings we don't know, we don't
know, right?
David, Donald Rumsfeld said along time ago, the un, the
unknown and unknowables.
Like we don't even know what wedon't know and so often in a
(26:39):
more complex world.
That's where we're actuallyliving.
And so that so in each of thesecontexts, we need to think about
leading differently.
The 4th one, just to close thegap is one of chaos, right?
If things are in a state ofchaos, everyone is looking for
someone to just say, what do weneed to do now?
Let's go.
(26:59):
And so where leaders end upoperating are either in chaos or
clear.
And in both cases, they take thelead and take some action in
chaos.
They don't know what to do, butthey do something right.
And in clear, like I know, herewe go.
And most of the time we don'tknow everything.
(27:19):
that's why we so often seethings happen.
And in retrospect, we say, well,there were unintended
consequences here because.
We didn't know those things yet.
Now that doesn't mean that we'realways going to get everything
right.
And I'm not saying that weshould now live in a world of,
of never making decisions.
What I am saying is if we thinkabout context a little bit more,
(27:40):
we can flex how we use those onour team and their expertise and
their perspective and theirexperience differently and
better.
And if you think about it,everybody, if you've both led
and been led, all of us havebeen right.
And in times when you've beenled, there've been times when
you just wanted the boss todecide.
(28:00):
And there've been times you'relike, you really wanted to be
involved and you really felt youneeded to be involved.
And if you've got the sameleader that does both of those
things, what are they doing?
Flexing.
And if they're making the, ifthey're flexing in the right
ways at the right time, based onthose needs, we get better
results.
Mike Goldman (28:19):
So are we literally saying, you know,
using this, Cynefin frameworknow that I know how to say it
right that when, as a leader,when we are confronted with a
decision and we're confronted,you know, with sometimes dozens
or hundreds of decisions a day,but when we're confronted, let's
call it a significant decisionwe've got to make is the first
(28:43):
step to say, wait a minute, Letme understand the context or,
you know, is the context clear?
Is it, complicated?
Is it complex?
Is it chaotic?
Make that decision first becausethat's going to drive a
different way to think about howwe move forward.
Kevin Eikenberry (29:00):
So now actually, there's one thing is
just in front of that, and ittakes us back to mindset and
takes us back to something youand I said at the very
beginning, and that is, we haveto be intentional to say,
because here's the thing, if weoperate from what we believe is
our style, or what we leave asour strength, or what we believe
we're supposed to do, and weoperate on automatic pilot.
(29:20):
You said you have a lot of highD traits, right?
So automatic pilot for you islet's go.
And maybe if you get a littlebit frustrated raising your
voice, but not necessarily a badthing, other than that, let's,
we got to keep it.
That's your natural intention,right?
That's your natural inclination,right?
So all of us have those.
And some of us share that othershave other sorts of traits.
(29:41):
The point is first thing isintention to say, should I be
operating on automatic pilothere or not?
And then and the way we decidethat is by looking at the
context, right?
So I'm just putting a little bitof something in front of what
you said.
and that's why mindset matters.
if you realize that perhaps Ineed to do something other than
(30:03):
doing what comes automatic orwhat I've done the last 64
times.
Then I can take a breath andsay, so do I have, are all the
things known here?
Where's the team with this?
What's the situation?
What do we need to do?
What expertise do we need toinvolve here?
What brainstorming do we need todo here?
Whatever that is, or chaos.
(30:26):
Holy smokes, not everyone is noteveryone has your high D traits
since we're using disk, right?
Others have the opposite end ofthat spectrum have a lot of S
traits We're getting a lot of Ctraits and so what their natural
inclination would be to slowdown and wait and think and that
applies to sometimes, apply inchaos when someone needs to make
(30:47):
a decision and we need to dosomething And so it's about
getting past our initial,natural, learned responses to
say, what does the situationcall for here?
Mike Goldman (31:02):
And that's clarifying to me because if, you
know, we go and just to kind ofstep back and make sure we're
like, we talked about mindsetand now we're on skill set.
And the interesting part is thefirst part of your skillset
model is the intention piece, asyou just said.
And if you don't have the rightmindset, you're going to blow
right by that intention piece.
So, so you start to see how itcomes together
Kevin Eikenberry (31:24):
So even if I understand
Mike Goldman (31:25):
and then, yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:27):
the model, it doesn't matter because I'm just
blowing right by it with mynatural inclination
Mike Goldman (31:33):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that.
So we've got the mindset.
Then within skill set, we startwith the intention.
Then we've got the context,which is where the Cynefin model
comes in.
And then my favorite part in,in, in going through your book
was the next part, which isflexors.
And you started talking aboutthose when I talked to you, what
(31:55):
I brought up, Oh, I'm trying.
Kevin Eikenberry (31:57):
and being flexible, right?
Mike Goldman (31:58):
Being rigid versus flexible that, you know, those
two extremes are not right.
So, so you, that's one exampleof it, but say more about what
flexors are.
And maybe let's talk through,you know, a couple of examples.
Kevin Eikenberry (32:11):
So the first thing we have to realize here is
I said that there's like atension between these things,
right?
So and we'll go back to when westarted with, which was, instead
of using the word rigid, I'lluse the word consistent versus
flexible.
Right?
and there's a tension betweenthose two things.
so, my family and I were inHawaii on vacation a week before
Christmas, and what I have foundis these tensions are
(32:36):
everywhere.
So I'm standing, in the surf.
in the sand and the waves arecoming in, washing over my feet
and my legs and the sand iscoming out behind my heels.
Because is the water coming inor is the water going out?
And the answer is the water isdoing both of them at the same
(32:58):
time.
And so there's a reason and atime when for us to be
consistent and a reason in timefor us to be flexible.
There's a tension between them.
The right answer isn't whichone, the answer is how much of
each one.
not an either or question, it'sa both and question.
So I'll use an example.
(33:19):
This may, this is maybe thebiggest overarching one I've
been asking leaders in workshopsand keynotes this question for
long time.
Would you rather lead forcommitment or compliance.
And nearly everyone will say, Iwanna lead for commitment.
(33:41):
And yet read most, employeeengagement studies.
And you will find surveys andyou'll find that most people are
barely getting compliance, letalone commitment.
And yet, here's the thing, arethere times when we need people
to comply?
Yes.
Legal stuff, ethical stuff,safety stuff, we need them to
comply.
But is that all we want?
(34:02):
probably not.
We want and need both.
So the idea of flexors is thatthere are ends of a continuum.
There's a tension between them.
And again, the intention says,where do we need to fall on this
at any given time, based on thesituation, based on the context,
(34:23):
rather than based on what Iknow, or I'm good at.
Mike Goldman (34:28):
So that's where the context comes together with
the flexors is if I've got thesetwo extremes of consistent
versus rigid, well, is thecontext clear?
Is the context complex?
Is the con
Kevin Eikenberry (34:42):
Exactly.
Mike Goldman (34:43):
that's going to help me?
and I love that.
That's such a more kind of.
Mechanical may be the wrongword, but it's such a more, you
know, structured way in my mindto think about it that, Hey,
sometimes this is right.
And sometimes this is right.
No, we can go deeper.
It depends on this context.
So I, it's so helpful.
Kevin Eikenberry (35:04):
here's the thing that I'm, as the trainer
in me, Right?
knows that what I'm suggestingin this conversation, what I'm
suggesting in this book isharder than the way you've
learned to lead before.
it is.
it requires more effort.
It requires more thought.
It requires more intention thanjust doing what you've seen do.
(35:25):
I lead the way I, this guy waspretty good or this guy was
pretty good.
I lead the way they led.
That's the way I, that's theonly way I've ever seen.
So that's what I do.
Well, it works some of the time.
Just doesn't work all the time.
Right?
And so it's a more refined,Approach.
It's harder.
I'm asking us all, me included,as leaders, holding ourselves to
(35:47):
a higher standard with this thanwhat we've done before because
the work that we do isimportant.
I mean, nothing, Mike, nothingpositive happens in the world
unless someone leads.
And so if we want to make thiswork, make our businesses
better, make our teams better,make our, help our customers be
better, make the world a betterplace, like it requires us to
(36:10):
lead better.
And so it's my hope that thisbook helps us to do that at
least a little bit better.
Mike Goldman (36:19):
How do we go from the skillset, right?
We started with mindset, we gota skillset and then you've got
habit set.
how do we make it a habit?
Kevin Eikenberry (36:30):
Well, at this point, it's really not any
different than any other habit,right?
So, and, you know, there's beena lot of really good stuff
written in the last 20 yearsabout habits, and a lot's been
learned about how our brainswork around habits, and I cite
James Clear's book, AtomicHabits, Habits in the Book, and,
you know, if you haven't readthat, there are other really
good works lately on this aswell, but, that book is as good
(36:54):
as any, and it's the most, It'sthe most known.
So we'll talk about it, but itgives us a lot of clues and it
gives us a lot of cues, right?
But the thing is, have to startto recognize.
When we might need to do itdifferently, which is where
intention comes in, right?
so, the mindset says, you haveto have intention.
And then the habit set says,when do I need to stop and look
(37:16):
before I just act?
Right?
So what's the cue that tells meI might need to adjust?
Or flex and then go from there,right?
And so, to me, when we thinkabout habits, it really comes
down to, what am I knowing whatmy goal is and then replacing
what I've always done in thiscase, an automatic response to
(37:36):
create a new automatic response,which is to start by saying,
what's my intention here?
Right?
So, I don't know that I have, inthe big picture, of creating new
habitset, a lot of new things tosay that haven't already been
said, in many ways.
I think the one thing I talkabout in the book that I think
is useful, especially useful, isthe idea of routine, having a,
(38:02):
having rhythm and havingroutine, which is a step up
from, to me, from the habit,like the nitty gritty of doing
this and that, and the nextthing.
and I think that having routine,things that create rhythm for
us, I think is really helpful.
Knowing the places that we canput ourselves mentally.
physically that can help us berefreshed and revived.
(38:24):
And for us to be at our best asleaders, I think is really
important.
Mike Goldman (38:28):
Yeah, I think the other thing I would throw out
there that, that jumped into myhead as you were talking is if
you as an individual leaderdecide to start thinking this
way and acting this way,mindset, skillset, habitset,
it's, you're going to have somework to do to build that habit
(38:50):
of anyone would, but if as ateam.
As a CEO, as a leadership team,you are all shifting your
mindset in this way.
You're all building thatskillset.
You're all working on thehabits.
Now we could reinforce it ineach other.
Kevin Eikenberry (39:07):
Now we can give each other feedback.
Now we can hold each otheraccountable.
Now we can, you know, we canshow commitment.
And then when we start to dothat, then the rolling out of
the leadership development workwill go far better.
Mike Goldman (39:22):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (39:22):
We should be as a leadership team rolling up
our sleeves and getting involvedin this with our teams.
and so Size of organization.
Are we 1st and we roll down orare we doing it with?
I mean, those are things thatall could be discussed
specifically in your context inyour situation.
But as you so astutely askedearlier.
that has to be a piece of this.
If that's not going to be there.
(39:43):
And I'm not just talking aboutflexible leadership, you're
doing, like if there's adisconnect between what the
leaders that are doing thatyou're asking to do something
different and what you're doing,if there's a disconnect there,
they ain't going.
Why would they?
Right.
Changing, changing our habits ishard.
And so, if we want to make ithappen, we need to have
(40:06):
accountability help, we need tohave coaching help, we need to
have peer help, we need to haveall these sorts of things to
help create the actual shift.
right
Mike Goldman (40:16):
I want to throw you a little curve ball before
we start to wrap up.
and I'm going to take this as achance for me to get some free
coaching from you.
So if you want to send me aninvoice after this, feel free, I
won't pay it, but you can sendme an invoice
Kevin Eikenberry (40:30):
Well, I
Mike Goldman (40:30):
is
Kevin Eikenberry (40:31):
outstanding accounts receivable, so we won't
send it.
That'll be fine.
Mike Goldman (40:35):
so I have got a client coming up.
Next week that I'm going to beworking with now, the time
people are listening to this,where this will have happened, a
while ago, but I've got a clientcoming up that is, and I won't
get too specific.
I'll say they're in therenewables industry.
(40:57):
We are at a time, depending onwhen you're listening to this,
that in the United States, weare about to have a new
administration, come intooffice.
That is, let's call it.
see, seems like they might beless friendly to the renewables
industry, more friendly to oiland coal and all the more
(41:18):
traditional.
So that throw, and there'scertainly a lot of, a lot of
what the government is doing forthe renewables industry where a
lot of,
Kevin Eikenberry (41:27):
Before you I just say something right there?
Mike Goldman (41:29):
yeah,
Kevin Eikenberry (41:29):
example.
There's an example and I'm notspeaking for or against the
administration.
That's not my point.
So many things on in our worldthat we frame as it's this or
it's this, but the reality isit, both of those can be true.
Like we can be, we could bedrill baby drill.
And working to help renewablesbe a part of the, it doesn't
(41:52):
have to be one or the other.
And I'm not saying you're sayingthat so often.
That's how we end up framing theworld.
It's either this or thisflexible leadership is about a
both and approach rather than aneither or approach.
Now, I interrupted you.
So go ahead.
You
Mike Goldman (42:08):
no, that's okay.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:09):
in the
Mike Goldman (42:09):
and.
Kevin Eikenberry (42:10):
Go ahead.
Mike Goldman (42:11):
Part of the answer is in what you just said.
So I appreciate that.
But they're about to get thisleadership team together to plan
the year and, you know, plan thenext quarter.
And to some degree, they'remembers of the leadership team
saying We don't know what theheck to do because we don't know
if the administration is goingto, you know, get rid of the,
(42:31):
whatever the inflation act wasthat, you know, we don't know
that they're going to do thisthing.
So how could we plan thebusiness when we don't know what
this administration is going todo and what it means to our
business?
How should that team, especiallythe leader of that team, how,
you know, and let's kind of takeit through what is that a,
Complex context.
Is that chaotic?
(42:52):
What, you know, what is thecontext and how should they be
thinking about planning the nextyear with all of that out there
is kind of an unknown to them.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:02):
I think, I mean, it's a more.
a more nuanced situation than wecan say, talk about in this this
conversation, but I will saythis, that if something's in the
context, in, in the complexcontext, that means we need to
be thinking about options.
Right?
And so what anyone who'slistening might be thinking,
well, we ought to be thinkingabout what are our various
(43:24):
scenarios.
If this happens, where would wego?
This happens, where would we go?
If this happens, where would wego?
And I think that's probablydirectionally.
Okay.
The right thing, what are thethings we know?
We don't know.
Let's talk about what those are.
And given that, as those thingsbecome clearer, and by the way,
they're not going to becomeclear around January, the 20th
or whatever that day is,
Mike Goldman (43:43):
Yeah.
Kevin Eikenberry (43:43):
going to become clear over some period of
time, given those unknowns orthose variables.
What are the things we ought tobe considering?
And if several of those thingsare unknown right now, what's
the best use of our time in thenext 30, 60, 90 days, you know,
so part of that planning is notthinking out a year.
we need to step back.
Now there's a big, importantthing for us to think long term
(44:06):
and sort of the Japanese 30year, look at our business and
all that stuff.
I understand that, but if we'replanning out the next year, we
really, in this case, I thinkneed to be saying, what are the
things we need to be learning?
understanding, gathering in thenext 30, 60, 90 days to help us,
have a more evergreen sort ofapproach to what our planning is
moving forward.
Mike Goldman (44:26):
Helpful, helpful.
Even just kind of thinkingthrough what are the unknowns?
What are the knowns?
You know, what's controllable?
What's not controllable?
Kevin Eikenberry (44:34):
think if I were in your shoes and I was
going to be their consultant ortheir facilitator, that's
probably where I would start.
Mike Goldman (44:39):
Yeah, no, that's helpful.
That's helpful.
So this is, you know, I amabsolutely, will recommend this
book and this model to all of myclients.
it's a, it's not the same oldleadership stuff by any stretch.
it's, and I won't even say it'sdifferent than that.
It's much deeper than that andnuance than that.
So, so I love this stuff wherepeople want to find out.
(45:03):
Kevin, more about what you andyour company do, especially if
they want to go buy the book.
I know the book is, you know, asof when this will, when this
will go live, the book is goinglive right around the same time.
So where should people go tofind out more about you?
Where should people go to buythe book?
Kevin Eikenberry (45:20):
Yeah, so if people just want to learn more
about us, you can go toKevinEikenberry.com K E V I N E
I K E N B E R R Y.com and youcan learn all about what we're
about and what we're doing.
You can certainly connect withme on LinkedIn, but specifically
related to your question.
you can go wherever fine booksare sold and get a copy of your
(45:40):
book.
Hope you'll do that.
Go order it at Amazon orwhatever.
Or you can do this.
You can go toKevinEikenberry.com/gift.
And when you go toKevinEikenberry.com/gift, we'll
give you the links where you cango get the book.
Awesome.
But we're also going to giveyou, right there, a free gift
for having listened to the show,of our masterclass that I
(46:00):
created about, being moreconfident, building confidence
in yourself and others.
And so that's the last word inthe book, right?
Navigate uncertainty and leadwith confidence.
And so, we didn't talk aboutthat much today, but I want to
give anyone who's listening,that master class on confidence,
building confidence in yourselfand others for free, just for
(46:23):
having listened to ourconversation.
And then all the links to thebook are also there.
Hope you'll do that.
We'd love to talk to you abouthow we could help your
leadership team, yourorganization around the ideas of
flexible leadership, of course.
But hopefully the first thingyou'll do is, take a look at
that.
That course, make that availableto yourself.
And, if we can be of help, we'dlove to do it.
Mike Goldman (46:45):
Go do it.
And if this was helpful, soundslike there's a lot more help out
there from the course.
Absolutely.
From the book.
well, you know, as I always say,if you want a great company, you
need a great leadership team.
Kevin, thanks so much forhelping us get there today.
Kevin Eikenberry (47:01):
Mike, it was my pleasure to be with you.
I love the questions.
I love the conversation and, Ihope those who are listening
found it helpful.
Mike Goldman (47:08):
Excellent.
See everybody next time.
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